Gear Progression Chart

[dusky fog]

For sure, just saying you do need a dragonbane weapon for that CA, so at least one of the three

[radiant pelican]

That's honestly really good to know, thank you. I'll wanna do master CAs at some point, so that may give me motivation to stay longer at hydra if I go dry

[robust roost]

if you miss dhcb, you’ll probably do all the hydra cas you missed on the way to feros, then go get wand for the Huey one

think wand takes substantially less time

actually that might not be true? idk

[hollow cobalt]

surely for vork you want dhcb/lance too right? idk how scy is

[robust roost]

oh yeah actually

if you don’t have dhcb then you’ll want lance for vork speed

scythe is pretty bad last i recall

and you’re prob not getting gm with fang or bp

shadow also not great

[fossil flame]

i think its possible with the kirby strat u do like over half of vork with dhcb regardless

isint fang decently close to lance? maybe a bit more reset but idt its anywhere near as bad as things like doom without tbow etc

[hollow cobalt]

right but no one is saying to skip tbow

[radiant pelican]

I'm being swayed to not skip Lance. Thanks guys

It's only a 40 hour grind not too bad

[fossil flame]

ye im just saying i dont vork speedrun is that crazy as long as u have dhcb fang imo atleast

but idk the calcs tbh

[fossil flame]

maybe did some things wrong but it seems to be better dhcb camping over fang (dhl is 7% better when rubys stop working) scy is nearly as good as lance (10.7 dps without def reduction) if u hit 40 bgs if u hit harder scy goes even more insane

if u hit 1 dwh its pretty cracked for scy👀

[robust roost]

real talk i haven't calced scy there since yama

that's nuts

what about with bellator

[fossil flame]

id double check not 100% sure if its correct

[robust roost]

well for the speedrun you don't def reduce

but if you're camping scy you would

[fossil flame]

bellator is worse u lose 4 max hits 11.3 dps

if u dont def reduce/dont have torva then dhcb ruby is best dps (11.0) even over lance

[robust roost]

if you have a dhcb (and buckler especially) then we ignore this whole convo

diamond bolts are better than scy on no drain, and close enough even with 1 maul that ur better off just clawing

[fossil flame]

ye i was trying to look at vard but his defense changes to much but itd only favor scy regardless

its like 5% worse using blade at vard at max defense vses scy and ppl get that time

think 7% worse at vork for like last 40% of fight is very doable is my conclusion

imo

either way getting lance not that long

[hollow cobalt]

the prayer/gp/etc doesn't hurt either

[robust roost]

there's definitely a consideration for hydra being like...the best raw gp/hr in the game?

it's either the single best or it's close behind revs

[blazing fern]

surely we can find a place for kodai in the efficient progression chart. right?

right??

[frail sonnet]

get before 70 slayer and silence the haters

[blazing fern]

prayers will be quick, they said

[polar void]

weird how this is actually a pretty cracked log

3 megarares in under 280

[blazing fern]

ikr

[polar void]

iron funny

[blazing fern]

dont disagre just give me rigor tho

xd

[polar void]

yeah damn

game really wants you to mage sir

[south fern]

You're a wizard Harry

[polar void]

[robust roost]

if this keeps up he’ll be a hairy wizard

[full panther]

The chart has been updated!

• Dragon Hunter Lance has been moved to post-Scythe. Getting it earlier is a net time loss if Scythe is used for both post-scroll Chambers and Alchemical Hydra.

• The Lance remains on the chart to avoid confusion, but its role is now niche. Players not routing ToB before Chambers likely still find it worthwhile earlier.

• This was a difficult decision, but the guiding principle of minimizing subjectivity was prioritized.

As always, do feel free to share any feedback

(the difficult part is that i think the majority of players are probably postponing tob because its less accessible)

[frozen olive]

idk if this is something you should do, but could unironically link the learn tob disc or smth

[polar void]

It's weird that lance is now post scythe

If it's that niche, is it even worth bothering to get at all if you have a scythe

[full panther]

mostly for cloggers probably

[frozen olive]

its always a grab leather and evaluate after plan

[polar void]

If it's just for clog then it probably should just be removed from the chart, right?

[full panther]

i consider it sufficiently niche to just drop from the chart, but i worry confusion would arise if it just dissapeared

[polar void]

It's the issue of megarares being so game warping yet, of course, very rare

[full panther]

im not opposed to just removing it, but i want to wait and see

[full panther]

pragmatically i kind of despise moving the lance

its a harsh commitment to make sitting at tob until scythe imo

[polar void]

I agree, but it is still looking correct if one's intention is to have all relevant gear

Radical change to guide, make branches that consider the insane rarity of megarares? Could be a solution

But it would be a lot of work

[full panther]

opens Pandora's box imo

but some interactive panel with for specifying some assumptions is not out of the question

[polar void]

Like having lance/scythe grouped together with an explanation panel

I like that idea

[full panther]

nah not like that, think like a settings page

anyway, its low priority, no promises

[polar void]

Keep the lance after scythe so reddit can be very confused and upset

[full panther]

not posting onto reddit until i have some larger milestone of some sort to show

besides, most really don't react that negatively

[polar void]

I joke, ty for the update sir ladlor

[real yacht]

Is there a way to create a fork chart? Like scy then a space then lance and say pick one depending on preference

[opaque bay]

choosing between one or the other (don't count time to obtain, just the raw item itself) would you rather have a noxious halberd on your account or a soulreaper axe

[frozen olive]

I really like my sra, but it can be annoying to use at times
Nox is probably better overall

[dusky fog]

worth casting demonic offering an abyssal ashes?

[frozen olive]

Definitely

Anything banked is good, and anything you're on Arceus for already without losing ticks

[real yacht]

I love the sra I wish it was better to warrant ever actively going for it

[craggy granite]

Isn’t it that it’s a cool weapon but if you’re doing it you already have the gear reqs for scythe more or less?

[dusky fog]

Whats the keyboard shortcut that lets you hit the + / - on ground items to hide/show/highlight their text

[frozen olive]

alt

[blazing fern]

if goal is to remove subjectivity just take dhl off

makes no sense to be after scythe unless we're arguing dhl needed for master cas which it isnt

unless im seriously mistaken in how ive always interpreted this chart - it's saying you should get dhl before you do x because x will be easier with dhl or dhl will save you time while grinding x

think it's more confusing to leave it on vs. simply removing it

especially since in the changelog the reasoning is dhl is obsolete for post scy cox

[craggy granite]

with oathplate scythe > torva at a lot of places, is there any taste in doing nex earlier?

What’d be the reqs there?

That’s probably more of a fun factor than efficiency, where the spec weapons seem fun to have

[frozen olive]

I mean you still want vambs and zcb, any torva piece gives the scythe maxes, with helm being the best
Good setup is acb masori with fang + VW switch, pipe for minions

[craggy granite]

Got it

Yeah, that’s kind of my thought, having it is probably more for fun

[hollow cobalt]

I don't think I'd ever do nex without GM tbh

Maybe 1 piece post-tbow

[craggy granite]

without GM?

I thought masori dragon darts are similar to tbow at nex

If I’m doing shadow + masori, I think doing next with acb + fang + masori -> tbow makes sense
Especially if a Torva piece gets a max hit. Having zcb + Zaryte vambraces + torva piece sound like upgrades for cox

[fossil flame]

pretty sure tbow is still way better unless they added that added that flat armor stuff to the minions

tbow also offers alot of utility and extra advantages that u cant do with bp

ud have to grind full torva for like 1% better dps over oath

if u opt to do claw olm instead of 1dwh then full oath is better

2piece oath 1 torva is barely diffrent to

think tbow is just way to good for nex to not get beforehand even if zcb is decent imo its not as good as bow for nex

[craggy granite]

ty for running that

zcb seems like such a cool weapon and it sucks that it comes after everything

[fossil flame]

can do it for fun though alot of ppl dont like nex

[craggy granite]

I want to come up with when i can run it most reasonably without feeling bad

[fossil flame]

personally i cba getting scy atm and still doing chambers even though its worsse dont have to take prog seriously if u wana just pot

[craggy granite]

If I could get zcb before cox & toa for anything with teams it seems super fun

[hollow cobalt]

no one will stop you

[craggy granite]

Doing a downgrade from masori seems like the worst part for me

[radiant pelican]

Not needed for masters but certainly helps with huey and vork points, especially if no dhcb

[tacit crow]

You can get 11 points way quicker from just doing other tasks instead of grinding out a lance.

The only thing I wouldn't go for at vork without lance is GM time. Then you just go back for that after dhcb or scythe

[south fern]

I think dhcb is the play there anyway and classic ruby spec gamble

[radiant pelican]

That's true

[robust roost]

for lower kc requirement

[frail sonnet]

cant imagine deciding to pot gm for zcb and not the other way around

[robust roost]

i don’t think zcb is overly important for any speeds

the hardest one without it is probably levi but you’re already playing “wait for rubies” every kill anyway

[frozen olive]

Levi, muspah, doom is what I would like it for, but it's not a hard req anywhere

[robust roost]

doom it’s omega not needed

despite what people have probably told you lol

my first attempt that survived to 8 was 6:45

which is 30s faster than the time

zcb is good but it’s not saving 30s

[frozen olive]

you'll want one of tbow/zcb, I'm not going to go for jraze tech

[robust roost]

tbow 100%

no chance im potting gms without it

[frozen olive]

I'm getting there

[robust roost]

the only mega i might try to do gms without is shadow

just bc eye is almost as good

and debatably has similar potential

[frozen olive]

wait you mega spooned tbow right

[robust roost]

yes

i mega spooned all 3

lol

[tacit crow]

Scythe really ain't needed if you have tob friends. But it's the most fun mega to get for me

[frozen olive]

https://tenor.com/view/peepo-leave-leaving-pepe-peepo-frog-gif-21562981

[robust roost]

scy was like 207 kc from mostly 4s, shadow was around 170 experts, mostly 350 masses

[real yacht]

So u got hella spooned on both or is that around rate

[tacit crow]

Scythe is like 1/4th of expected KC. (Don't know deaths, but it would be around there if running 4s).

No way of knowing the gear differential in 350 masses at TOA, but id guess he's not due more than 5-6 purples when shadow is 24 purples for rate.

So hella spooned yes.

[real yacht]

Must be nice.

Luckily i am hopefully gonna spoon my ultor. got virt bottoms and 2/3 rings drop today at 400ish kc

[real yacht]

I was just spooned tbow after saying must be nice at 73 kc

is there any reason not to revert bowfa into blade of saeldor?

[frail sonnet]

leviathan if you dont plan on wasting a single dragon bolt there I guess

[south fern]

Do you have enough amethyst to sustain it? Have you got masori? Because in quite a few places full crystal beats out like black dhide+tbow

[fossil flame]

ppl like for bflying akkha but u can use eye now for better results or similar

for chambers i think (bowfa) good for some rooms without masori and shadow if u have shadow it just wins in those rooms outside of cms

its good for some budget ca stuff as well

[robust roost]

not really no

if you run into a niche scenario where bowfa is good again, you can re-revert, and atp you’re strongly incentivized to grind tob for scythe where bowfa is useless and tbow is good

unless you still need bandos hilt there’s pretty much 0 reason to still own it

by the time you’d want to be doing Levi anyways, you should have enough gear/ammo to where blowpipe is better than bowfa

[real yacht]

I have 1 piece masori and ill probably be afking ammy daily now

[real yacht]

This is one reason I dont want to cause im about to go lock myself at toa for masori and would much rather 4t bf instead of 3t

[real yacht]

Got hilt and no plans on levi at the moment but could always bounce blade back and forth gonna keep it for now til I decide I don't wanna do 3t bf at akka instead of 4t with bowfa

[robust roost]

well like

are you gonna take a crystal piece and bowfa in addition to tbow and your masori piece?

just for akkha?

you're never not taking the tbow, and if you have the tbow you want the masori, and if you're going to bank the masori instead then you'd just be better off facetanking akkha

and piping

[real yacht]

well I guess by that logic I would just attempt 3t bf all times and just switch off as I make a mistake cause eye is better dps than bowfa

[fossil flame]

dont rrly need to bfly in general they reduced the dmg alot for facetanking if pipe/eye better dps itd be decent to not worry imo

[real yacht]

Im sure it pays to atleast be decently comfortable at a fly method for 500s

i want my kit at some point

[robust roost]

flying is mostly for the purpose of avoiding specials

otherwise you'd just fang akkha

more memory specials = like 12 seconds of wasted dps

each time

although

eye is actually better than fang nowadays

[robust roost]

gear setup prob looks smth like this lol

replace black keris whenever fang

[frail sonnet]

bfing is for upkeeping your highest dps for as long as you can

the other reasons dont matter that much

[robust roost]

the chip used to kinda matter when his melees would smash repeated 14s through prayer and you were camping magus on dehydro

although if you’re camping magus you’re shadowing and you never want him switching anyways so moot point

there’s also a theory where instead of reverting you just do levi now

get venator ring and use it at tob/toa/colo

it’s pretty much always giving 2 bow maxes and also gives a pipe max in void

[real yacht]

Forreal venny ring is something I should actually be gunning for

Cause if so ill have to do that before tob finish levi and then nothing to worry about for bowfa

[robust roost]

im assuming you have rigour and max treads already

[real yacht]

2/3 havent done much meds

[robust roost]

yeah theres like

probably very few if any setups where that 1 range str makes a dif

if you ever plan on getting rangers or doing a clog grind or w/e you may as well do it sooner rather than later

lots of free oak planks + there might be fringe cases where the 1 str matters

[real yacht]

I'll do some calcs on all content i plan on doing and take it from there

But to be certain venny ring higher prio than mediums for grinding toa/tob

[robust roost]

assuming amethyst ammo for all

bp and tbow in either void or any 1 piece of masori, with or without venator, salted or range potted don't gain a max from +1 str

best thing you can do atp if you haven't yet is get infernal/quiver

having tbow + rigour should make both of them way easier

[real yacht]

I have quiver and inferno alrdy

[robust roost]

oh then lol

[real yacht]

Im following chart very close im at ultor

[robust roost]

open videogame

[real yacht]

Kk ill check some stuff out and see how it enjoy bowfa levi

[robust roost]

def want ultor before tob

[real yacht]

Yeah im 2/3 so its my main focus rn

[robust roost]

huh

venator ring was completely removed from the chart

used to be in the same block as heart/venator bow i think

wonder why it was removed

ive seen the take that venator ring is just worse than lb for all range content

but i wonder if that's actually true, and if it is then why venring was ever there to begin with

i know with old d arrow setups it gave vbow 3 max hits which was a pretty big deal for colo and slayer

not that you'd ever use d arrows for slayer, but they're good at colo

[real yacht]

I think its true assuming zcb

[robust roost]

maybe treads just replaced venator ring

for endgame setups

so ven doesn't give range str anymore in max

at least for vbow, which was the main selling point for it

yeah okay if that's the case maybe vring is actually trash

[real yacht]

Once i get to work ill decide cause I always need a boss to kill at work and running out of non-raid options

[robust roost]

this setup loses 3 max hits if you have regular treads

but 0 if you have max treads

and it always loses 1 max hit only if you have rune arrows

[real yacht]

Damn so that 1 str is 3 max hits?

[robust roost]

yeah thats just vbow things

[real yacht]

Or is it 1 max hit assuming 3 bounces

[inland cosmos]

tbow is similar

[robust roost]

every 3rd max hit is 3 max hits

because of rounding

including bonuces

both bounces do 2/3rds the first hit

but it rounds down like scythe

[frozen olive]

as someone who tries to justify my venator ring grind in any way possible, this aint it

[robust roost]

i did some math wrong

41 and 42 are +3 max hits

40 and 43 are only 1

2/3 of every number from 39 to 43 is 26, 26.6, 27.3, 28 and 28.6

and it always rounds down

anyways

long as fuck winded way to say that ven ring doesn't do anything for slayer if you have max treads with amethyst arrows xd

[robust roost]

what is the #1 justification to get it

[frozen olive]

the one I used to use was ggs

there's no justification really tho

[robust roost]

the main one for me is heart grind

[frozen olive]

there's just better rings everywhere

if we're doing low intensity slayer I'd rather rotg

[robust roost]

but you can get ranger boots instead, probably takes less time and does the same thing for venator slayer

while possibly sometimes giving max hits in some setups sometimes on stat tickdowns or w/e

[frozen olive]

why we not using divines

[robust roost]

nex

🙃

i actually meant the overload/salt tickdown

[real yacht]

I did some maths for just toa as its the only place im worried about it and there is almost 0 reason to get venny ring sadly

pretty sure my time would be better spent just doing chambers to stack up dragon arrows while also acquring upgrades if the goal was to power up the tbow

[frozen olive]

They would just have to give it a decent boost in stats to make it worthwhile, but you can't really do that when pipe exists

[robust roost]

sure you can

just nerf the pipe again

[frozen olive]

Probably need to do to tbow too

[craggy granite]

I heard there’s mage only method for nex with ayak spec as a group, has anyone looked into that?

[frail sonnet]

I heard it reaches about ZCB camp levels of DPS but still both worse than fang auto + u wasted all ur spec on that instead of VW

[fossil flame]

think they patched being able to giga drain with eye into negatives but not sure

[robust roost]

you don’t need to drain into negatives, if you drain her to 0 im pretty sure it’s better dps then fang, and even if a team of like 4-5 people all dumps specs on eye for the first 3-4 she should be near 0 magic def by the end of p2

the issue is as mentioned, you’re using all of your spec to get her to a point where you’re doing comparable dps to fang, instead of using fang and using spec on actual dps

and the much bigger issue, nex hurts, and you’re wearing literal paper to do this

[tacit crow]

additional issue that you have to be in a 4-5man instead of trios or duos.

[craggy granite]

Knowing that there’s at least an option to bounce between toa/cox/nex while going for mega rares is the main thing that’s enticing there

[dusky fog]

Any ideas on how many whips you need for scythe/avernic?

for tent

[north acorn]

is tent even needed nowadays with nhally ingame?

[hollow cobalt]

tent is easier to get than nhally

so why not

[north acorn]

gotcha yeah just wasn’t sure if it was actually used for a particular room or something

haven’t stepped into tob just yet

[radiant pelican]

Is double death charge a deal breaker for cerb? Like absolutely necessary?

[frozen olive]

Absolutely not lol

What are we double death charging

[radiant pelican]

Idk it's before cerb in the chart lmao

[umbral pasture]

think it's more for rax than cerb

[hollow cobalt]

there's basically no items that are every absolutely necessary

but also double dc is 100% useless at cerb

[robust roost]

you simply do not kill 2 cerbs per minute

you barely kill more than 1 per minute, if that

[umbral pasture]

and just for slayer in general, since that whole block of the chart is slayer stuff

[robust roost]

oh wait i remember we talked about this

getting double dc before desert elites

to make the mini KQ grind a little better

since you can do pretty long trips with the gravestone method

and stack dc between kills

[radiant pelican]

Oh OK that makes sense.

So in my case I could only really make an argument for arraxor

Oh on a separate note, what do people recommend for cerb? Just killing normally with ward of arc? Or is there a special strat? And then do people swap to bracelets if slaughter at the end or camp whole kill?

[mortal perch]

swap at the end though you will get enough tasks that its not a big deal and being able to rotate content more often is a good thing so i just camped dps gloves

[tacit crow]

2:1 method for sure

[mortal perch]

2:1 with emberlight would be my recommendation for method

[tacit crow]

Can throw in offering tech when you feel comfortable with ghosts

[hollow cobalt]

think it's really just most of the slayer shit

idk hellhound tasks are really common and long tasks, cba slaughting that shit

[tacit crow]

I don't think many people slaughter it

By the time you do 150-200 cerb you are happy to have a break.

[frozen olive]

It's gonna be 3 hours anyway

[native ridge]

Following ladlor suggestion is 20k chins into 92 range before starting gauntlet. Should I take that literally or should I be looking to start a bit early around mid 80s for mage and range? I know 92 is the for max hits, but surely I’ll tick a few levels in the grind regardless

Sitting here

[frozen olive]

you'll be 93 on avg when you're done with cg, which is a max for bowfa eagle eye

[native ridge]

Bowfa grind on average only gets you 92-93? Wow

[frozen olive]

the assumption being you also pick the first 2 weps you see

[zinc jewel]

at what floor is it worth to loot sep to get marks etc?

[hybrid blaze]

bridge/enchant f4, all of f5. Enchant f3 is debatable either way

[robust roost]

is that still true if you dont have f5 yet?

[hybrid blaze]

Yes. I'd include f3 enchant either way but its better pre f5

if you're tick perfect the f3 enchant is quite a lot worse though

[candid haven]

Not 100% since you can cast Expert Reanimation on the 1/15 Ensouled hellhound head and kill the Reanimated hellhound between cerb kc to proc double dc

[strange pawn]

kill spindle with bofa? seems like alot more dps

I have d warhammer (red x durring a bingo sesh lol)

[indigo hollow]

I think your zombie axe is on slash in these calcs

Also for future reference, it’s easier to just share a link to your loadout (top right of the page) rather than take multiple photos or screenshots

[strange pawn]

damn you are right! I knew something was off https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=GrainProgressSupplies

Checked prayers crush pots ok

my bad

[frail sonnet]

rag gear bowfa is worse but decent risk bowfa where u +1 crystal legs and full risk helm is same as hasta and super comfy way to do the boss

only do this if ur confident youll never get smited, altho even if u die, most ppl have a spare armor seed or two anyways

[strange nexus]

Id use it at p2 verzik as its much easier than the nox hally but also if you got good bit tob experience you could just learn to use nox hally properly

[quiet schooner]

U can just afk pray melee for most of the fight at spindel idk how that isn't more comfy than ranging it

[copper wharf]

If I have all of this gear + 99 slayer, is it worth getting the ghommals hilt 4 (presumably mainly for the increased superior chance on the slayer grind) or should I delay it until later with better gear?

[craggy granite]

Superiors for imbued heart

[copper wharf]

I have 2 of them already

[inland cosmos]

at that point I would only do it for fun and otherwise delay it until you can do hilt 5 instead

[robust roost]

if you have imbued heart then there's basically 0 reason to push for elites

before like...nex, lol

the other benefits are slightly more bosses on boss tasks and cannonballs

and maybe elite ca's also affect clue rates?

all of which are very whocares

[dusky fog]

How important is dwh before cox. Cant get by with bgs? Hope to get dwh during the slayer grind I just started

[indigo hollow]

The only thing where not having DWH really sucks is Tekton. You can get by with BGS there, but DWH having a guaranteed first hit is really nice

[dusky fog]

At least it’s a 1/3000 instead of 1/5000 now… if you don’t get one on the way to the low 90s slayer is it worth camping off task?

[hollow cobalt]

it's pretty good but you can do cox with some very scuffed gear if you want

[robust roost]

if you do cox in teams bgs is just better

but honestly for solos, especially without scythe, i think bclaws are close to if not better than dwh anyway

ive seen that go around in wdr from certain people

i think it’s more important for tob honestly, hard griefing sote in trios without one

[frozen olive]

Only sucks for tek

[robust roost]

im actually being told it’s better then mauling lol

[hollow cobalt]

does anyone actually do it yet?

[robust roost]

i dont think so lol

landed hammer saves 6.6s across 1 hand and has 70.8% chance to hit

2 bclaw specs have an expected hit of 49.6 each over a 20.1 whip hit, assuming gear is chart up to & including ultor

so i guess the most barebones way to think about it is spending 10% more spec to save about 2.6s more per hand

[fossil flame]

bclaws felt pretty good to me on olm i also liked it having good ko potenital to quickly finish hand

i only bring for dwh for tekton atm

think its alot easier to fully use spec to with claws since you dont have to use them right at start

[dusky fog]

How much worse is trios then solo?

I don’t want to avoid solo because of dwh but also not sure I want to grind it out if I don’t happen to get over slayer grind before starting cox

Guess the point is moot if you need to grab before tob anyways

Which is now well before cox

[frozen olive]

I mean if you're doing trios should be scaling, unscaled is garbage

[robust roost]

im not actually sure if 3+4 is better pph than 3+0/2

but either way if you’re going in teams you want to be doing 3+12s

or whatever large scale

[tacit crow]

Surely 3+4 is better than 3+0. You spend more time at olm.

[quiet schooner]

u dont even need to push for elites theyll just come naturally from doing any content

u can pretty much just get most of the points u need from getting kc at bosses and doing them correctly

[dusky fog]

tbh I wouldnt be anywhere close to elite CA before starting this lengthy slayer grind If I didnt intentionally go out of my way to do the tasks. Not that they were difficult or took very long, but I did have to shop around to some content that otherwise was delayed for down the progression path

[robust roost]

i talked with a friend about this not long ago

elites are very not passive, you need a lot of points to get there

compared to hards

and you definitely won't be anywhere near getting them if you're only following the chart, it's a pretty big detour

but for that detour you remove 25% off of what is likely to be a 100+ hour grind

and since the "end goal" is probably gm anyway (and you absolutely want at least masters for the thrall timer), you don't lose that much time pushing elites earlier

[real yacht]

Agreed I had to go very out of my way for elites

[dire torrent]

Even tho you don't need it, the Elite CAs was one of the most entertaining goals I've had in the game. It made me try out a lot of new content and learn them to get the CAs done! So IMO no need with the given info, but very good content if you like PVM.

[wicked forge]

What’s the method to get 94 mage so early? I’m guessing alching as that’s the one thing I have done much of

[hybrid blaze]

Yes. Alching at sepulchre gives 3m+, for example

[south fern]

I wonder how much mage xp you get doing mostly glass to 93, must be half a mil I guess

[tepid goblet]

yeah its close to that

87-93 i got about 600k mage xp

calc gives me similar (650k mage xp) from 61-87

[south fern]

So basically about 10% of xp needed for 94

[robust roost]

you get a decent chunk grinding book and boots from mta as well

[dusky fog]

what is expected hours on rate doing decently efficient methods for t bow and scythe?

[full panther]

for cox, however long 30m pts takes

[strange nexus]

Max eff is like 140k pts an hour I think doing 2+13s?

[dusky fog]

what does that tend to be for a semi-efficient player

[full panther]

i can share my setup and what my pts/hr has been

[frozen olive]

250 hours

[dusky fog]

and hb scythe?

[frozen olive]

A little under 200 in efficient 3s

[strange nexus]

I wonder is it more efficient to get tbow then shadow now with eye being better in 2+13s then shadow?

[full panther]

pecanbread's maxeff one says 131k pts/hr without scout alt, and 141k pts/hr with

[frozen olive]

Is it? That's cute

[fossil flame]

is that for solos?

[strange nexus]

Nah 3+12s for pecan i think

[full panther]

ye solos

[strange nexus]

Oh

[full panther]

3+12 says 130k pts/hr too though

for irons

[fossil flame]

that seems rough imo u have to be quite good and alot of cox stuff typically assumes u have mrare for the grind to begin with

[strange nexus]

2+13s is bit better also

[full panther]

3+12 130kpts/hr rate is probably easier than the 1+0 130k pts/hr lol

[dusky fog]

okay lets start over. For a decently efficient player who isnt a total sweat, how long we expecting for these drops?

[strange nexus]

100% is

[full panther]

100k pts/hr is a reasonable estimate i think

[frozen olive]

250

[full panther]

so 300 hours?

[strange nexus]

3 solos an hr for 95k pts an hour i think is reasonable

[full panther]

thats my approximate bowfa lance trident rates

[strange nexus]

For tob your not going to get teams will be planks and wipes id prob ball parking 250 hrs

[frozen olive]

120k rate and that's doable if not perfect at 2+13

[full panther]

2+13 sounds intense lol

[dusky fog]

Does 2+13 mean 2 people, doing a max sized reg cox?

[frozen olive]

Also gotta account for ppl actually potting

[full panther]

ill need to check out a vod some day

[strange nexus]

Scottvc did it for pet of i recall I seen pick of jyhy getting door back was kinda wild pts but we cant really go by jyhy rates

[frozen olive]

Wild

Another tbow on log too

[dusky fog]

tbow.claws.dins in 17kc?

[frozen olive]

Scaled

[strange nexus]

Still cracked rng lol

[frozen olive]

So like 85 KC normals but yeah

[full panther]

i've been under the impression that 2+x is the most unpleasant among the alternatives. why is 2+13 preferable to 3+12?

that 1 extra guy being harder to find?

[frozen olive]

3 is easier for sure, 2 should be better points if done correctly

[strange nexus]

I never did a 2+13 but its 0 dmg olm while 3+12 is not

[frozen olive]

Sometimes head doesn't turn

So it's not entirely 0 dmg

[strange nexus]

Ah I thought eye was just because its better dps at 0 def

I dont get why thralls wouldnt always turn it but I haven't done the method

[frozen olive]

I haven't actually done eye 2+13 but I did some stuff with a shadow guy and head turned for us

Maybe just bad

[dusky fog]

What do you guys recommend for getting a tob team? Mass worlds, join a clan, friends, etc?

[frozen olive]

Wdr/clan then find consistent ppl to run with

416 if you hate yourself

[dusky fog]

3 man?

[strange nexus]

U got spilt gp?

[dusky fog]

ya, got a main

[strange nexus]

Prob wdr and add non shitters

[frozen olive]

Can do bigger teams while learning the ropes but trio feels good

[dusky fog]

I saw WDR made an announcement the other day. Changing some rules and tightening up some thing

[frozen olive]

Doesn't look like anything gear related

Don't raid on high risk world or FFA worlds

[dusky fog]

trying to root out some scammers iirc

[frozen olive]

You gonna come clean obi

[dusky fog]

and leave dirty?

[frozen olive]

ScytheTaker

[dusky fog]

XD only tob ive ever done was the entry for CAs and quest

even that small glimpse was more fun than toa though tbh

[frozen olive]

Entry is great for practice

Well, some practice

[dusky fog]

are the mechanics all the same?

[frozen olive]

For xarp and verzik I found it useful

[strange nexus]

I think its because of hmt

Hmt is always spilts and people just apply at board in 474 and somtimes scam spilts

[frozen olive]

Makes sense

[dusky fog]

if youre gonna scam why not just do ffa?

you keep what you get and dont get blacklisted for life

[strange nexus]

Hmt is always spilts

People want kits

(Irons)

I had a venny scam me once I was 1500 tob kc in reg when scythe was 350m and I soloed all of p3 can happen organically aswell lol

P3 solo w blade was ass

[dusky fog]

is TOB fun to grind?

[frozen olive]

Yes

Esp if you find a group you enjoy playing with

[hollow cobalt]

after finishing it on the iron i did another 1500 on the main just for fun

[dusky fog]

1 will be my brother who already maxed iron, then will need to find +1

[frozen olive]

Learn duos

[dusky fog]

duo tob??

[hollow cobalt]

0kc duos sound like a bad time

[dusky fog]

how many TOB trios does tent whip last

i mean ill do all abby demon tasks prior to TOB regardless, but curious

[frozen olive]

I have no idea what the numbers are for that anymore lol

I think I used to like 5 years ago but my KC on iron has been blade

[dusky fog]

might hax nox hally before tob anyways

but didnt i hear its best not to learn with it?

or i misremembering

[frozen olive]

I mean it's fine, there's gonna be some stuff that's harder

[strange nexus]

Nox hally all rooms but p2 verzik

[hollow cobalt]

whip/hally/tent/blade/sra are all the same

it's the same shit

any of them is fine

[strange nexus]

Just make sure u stand in melee distance if your able to tank the hit

Yeah even for p2 if not able to properly nox hally a reg whip is fine

Anyone who thinks its enough of a difference to matter i just avoid potting with

Its scythe or no scythe lol

Tob is by far the funniest raid

[full panther]

I like it, but dam, it overwhelms my mental stack quick tho

[real yacht]

416 isnt so bad these days I havent wiped 1 run yet in 10.

[full panther]

So much reward for effort, and consistency :)

[frozen olive]

There's good days and bad days, I'm sure it's more consistent overall than it used to be

[real yacht]

Def more consistent these days with power creep and entry. But nothing beats having a stacked friends list and can just send out pms make teams quick

[dusky fog]

😮

I did that for yama, I put notes on each person I added giving them a 1-10 rating of how good they were at yama 😂

[frozen olive]

Definitely a good method for any official world/FFA content

[tacit crow]

You definitely build a do not raid list if you 416 a good amount

[quiet schooner]

Eye is better than shadow in 2+13s?

[robust roost]

no but it’s close to shadow and doesn’t require you grinding a shadow

it’s better than its trident predecessor

[blazing fern]

I’m dying lol, so true

[strange nexus]

Yeah its more dps when u spec hand to 0 def

[blazing fern]

im getting like 85-100k/hr in 3+4 with the gear shown in progress chart at the rigor/augury stage. but thats just based on points per raid, not including time spent scouting or finding a team. using WDR mostly. realistic points/hr is probably closer to like 75-85k factoring in time to find teams

based on 26-31min raids with 41-48k pts/raid

just highly variable in my experience, quality of teammates/gear, etc

wish there was a more consistent way of finding teams :/

[quiet schooner]

U can do solos

They are very consistent for team forming

[robust roost]

kekw

[blazing fern]

kekw

also very consistent for worse pts/hr

[robust roost]

raids with friends > solos > raids with non-friends for me

pph is probably always gonna be roughly similar

[blazing fern]

and one more detail im usually ending raids with 40-42% of overall points, on melee hand, so im not sure how much better points/hr can get in 3+4 unless have consistent team

[quiet schooner]

They really shouldn't be worse pph

[robust roost]

actually

[blazing fern]

ok yes well i can do scaled solos

true

[robust roost]

raids with friends is better than raids with wdr randoms, assuming scame gear

[quiet schooner]

Scaled solos are bad

[blazing fern]

but im not doing that, can only really manage unscaled solos atm

[quiet schooner]

No one's talking about scaled solos

[blazing fern]

and those are 25 min with significantly less points

[robust roost]

because wdrers are monkeys and at least with friends i can explain how to reduce defense

[quiet schooner]

25 minutes is extremely slow for a solo

[blazing fern]

ok

[robust roost]

it is yeah

going off the basis that you're not scouting 4c2p with ice vangs mystics

lol

sub 20 minutes is a "decent" solo time

[blazing fern]

what about the assumption that i dont have rigor aug and using trident/dhl/bofa

[robust roost]

tbh it's hard to comment on what a good time is without knowing the gear sitch

[blazing fern]

i doubt thats "extremely slow"

[quiet schooner]

Sub 20 with that gear sounds about right

[robust roost]

25 is extremely slow for any level of gear

[blazing fern]

i am not god tier, i have room for improvement but doubtful tahts extremely slow

[robust roost]

if you're consistently doing 25 minute solos you probably shouldn't be raiding yet

[quiet schooner]

25 is like afk prepping speed

[blazing fern]

whatever

im doing my best

and in that case 3+4 a lot better for me personally

just responding to question trying to give context on my experience

[robust roost]

we're not saying anything negative about you, just saying that the pph you're getting from solos isn't typical

[blazing fern]

in general however, i have heard from everyone ive ever asked that scaled is gonna be better pts/hr than solo

but maybe i / they are wrong

[robust roost]

solo is obviously the scale that is most affected by your personal performance and gear, if you aren't comfortable or lack the gear to do rooms quickly and no-prep then they'll be slower and maybe worse

but in a typical scenario, once you are good at them, solos are the best pph outside of megascaling

and with practice it's pretty easy to get consistent sub-20 minutes without megas

[blazing fern]

i would also add that his question was based around "the average player"

im not disagreeing with you guys just framing the context

[robust roost]

the average player is a fallacy

most people are capable of far more than they think they are

[blazing fern]

i agree with that too

[robust roost]

they just either don't want to put in the effort or they're scared to invest their time because they think they can't do it

[blazing fern]

but def not reasonable for someone doing cox for first few times, maybe even first 100 kc, to just pot <20 solo in that gear

or maybe it is and im just trippin

[quiet schooner]

No it isn't but it's something to work towards and not ever learning it means u will never get there

[robust roost]

no, you are correct

there is a command in wdr specifically that says people who are new to cox should not solo, because it is significantly harder and a very different experience from team raids

[blazing fern]

idk i skipped around the guide a lot, did inferno/collo early cuz im >300 cox no rigor, etc

[quiet schooner]

Maybe not at 1 raid or 50 but by 100 u probably will be there

[blazing fern]

so i agree that u can stretch and do stuff before you think youre ready

but tbh that seems tough

[robust roost]

if you're 300+ cox then you should easily have enough understanding of the raid mechanics to learn solos

[blazing fern]

i do solos, but yeah like we said, not <20

which is fine with me

how about we just ignore my comments on solos

and use my 3+4 wdr-specifc pts/hr experience

cuz ur right i dont have "enough" solo experience to be providing input there, id agree

for real tho unscaled solo should be comparable points? like 85-100k/hr?

[robust roost]

well, no offense, but if someone who doesn't know better comes and sees your 25 minute solos comparison, they might get the wrong idea about how good soloing actually is when done right

so it's important to make the distinction

[blazing fern]

cuz imma start sending those if true, have always heard the opposite

[blazing fern]

i agree i agree

[robust roost]

if you're doing avg 25 minute solos, + scouting time, you're probably getting ~70k pph

so no it's pretty bad

[blazing fern]

what i meant was, never thought there was a point in learning solo really, cuz 3+x scaled would always be better

but if that's not true gonna start trynig to get better at solos

cuz the most frustrating part for me is waiting for team

[robust roost]

if you get your solo time avg down to 19-20 minutes, you're looking closer to about 90k pph

[blazing fern]

okay thanks for the input and again my b if anyone reads this later and i gave the wrong impression!

[robust roost]

honestly i think the biggest pph upgrade you can get is a prescouting alt

but prescouting solo is a pain in the ass, you don't get much afk time

the actual biggest upgrade is noprep

[blazing fern]

do you have to no prep for those <20 solo times?

[robust roost]

yes

[blazing fern]

kk

[robust roost]

without like insane gear yeah

[blazing fern]

ty

i wasnt doing that either

[robust roost]

noprep is always gonna be the most efficient adjustment any person or team can make to any raid ever

it's just a completely free 1-2 minute timesave

[blazing fern]

it is #getgood but i like that

appreciate the tips/info

[robust roost]

it does require both correct room play, good execution of 3:0/4:1, and adjusting your inventory a little to take some extra supplies

pecan's room guides for his eff solo cm video probably also apply to regs

other than certain inventory things

[blazing fern]

yeah thats the gear setup im using for unscaled basically

so gonna do some more yt research on solo unscaled, try to find right setup etc

well not the exact gear, but with downgrades ya know

love that guide

[quiet schooner]

he has an efficient solo regs vid too

[robust roost]

is it old/outdated i wonder?

some things are fairly recent discoveries

like overcapping thieving, stacking at ice, hitting vespula and killing rope being efficient pph

over doing them faster

[hollow cobalt]

Most of those are not new

Killing rope has been known to be better like... Since before I started cox

Hitting vesp has been like 5years too

[robust roost]

really

crazy, i spend a lot of idle time sitting around raids channels and ive only learned all these things over the last cpl months

[hollow cobalt]

I have genuinely never seen someone recommending skipping rope for pph
thieving was figured out like... within weeks of becoming viable in 2023 #chambers-of-xeric message
Vesp was at least 2019 #chambers-of-xeric message

[robust roost]

crazier to me is that these things are still true even in cm, where you get flat points for doing the raid faster

[hollow cobalt]

People doing cms are typically going for kits/dust/capes over pph (otherwise they wouldn't be doing cms) so usually they just go for the fastest raids

[robust roost]

hm

what if you want dust/kits and drops

[chilly ruin]

i think someone told me this about rope like a month ago

[full panther]

sounds like a dont do rope skip until u have the purples, then start doin rope skip after

[real yacht]

Very informative

I had no idea hitting vesp is good i always kust rushed down portal

[robust roost]

last time i tried it in cm i got poisoned and died lmao

[dusky fog]

As someone whose cox experience is 5+ years ago WDR , where can I find the best resource for learning the efficient way to do cox. YouTube video recommendation, discord server info, etc. if it’s a 250+ hour grind, I’d like to take the time to learn it the right way

[robust roost]

for pretty much all content always, but especially for team content or long grinds, im heavily in favor of doing things the correct/efficient way

settling for mediocrity is just...boring

do you really want to do the same raid the same way every single time for 900+ raids

but then the argument is always "afk"

[quiet schooner]

it was made some time this year so its quite recent

dunno about downing cm vesp

sounds sketchy

but regular vesp for sure

[robust roost]

cm ice is funny

apparently the kindling is worth 50% more in cm vs regs

so you get a metric fuckton of points for stacking

[real yacht]

Speaking of cms does getting a tbow without shadow mean cms would be better points ph for me assuming I dont go to toa to get shadow

[wicked forge]

not doing too bad it feels

[forest knot]

if you have rigour then just go toa bro, it sucks but shadow good

[real yacht]

Fair I don’t mind toa was just curious

Plus masori there

[forest knot]

with tbow rigour theres nothing at cox that would come close to shadow in terms of upgrades for your account

and shadow would make cm so much better

[real yacht]

Sounds like toa time

Also am I right to tell my friend who is planning doing chambers mainly shadow dhcb is better than tbow ayak for normal cox team raids

[fast violet]

this is probably been said here before but is shadow really that worth it if you have an eye of ayakk? isnt it only like a 5% dps upgrade

[tacit crow]

Shadow gets a lot more use due to its accuracy effect. You basically can shadow everything in cox. But you can't ayak everything.

[hollow cobalt]

5% on low def stuff, a lot more on higher def stuff

even like cm olm it's closer to 15%

[fast violet]

oh yall are right in my gear im getting a 12% upgrade on whisp and 14% in trio cm

11% in trio cm if i dont take magus

[robust roost]

if you do get spooned the bow anyways, your dps at zebak/wardens goes up substantially plus you really want masori

so toa becomes huge

[fast violet]

yeah what i heard is at the point basically do toa and cox then when you get either mega rush its related gear set

[robust roost]

assuming you have the lb/fang and dex you probably want scythe first

[polar void]

Doesn't confliction help with this tremendously?

[viscid lark]

Not really

Shadow accuracy effect is the most helpful against targets with high enough magic def that you just wouldn’t even be able to mage it with a different weapon

[polar void]

What gear breakpoint is needed for ayak to overtake bowfa on warden P3? Can it be done before ancestral?

[robust roost]

i think full bark is enough

ive checked this like 4 times but i never remember what gear ayak is actually better lol

[tacit crow]

Overtake and become worth it to bin some ranged switches are different stories though

[polar void]

Well you never bin ranged switch before shadow, you need it for zebak

[robust roost]

are they?

[tacit crow]

You need inventory space if you are pushing invo.

[robust roost]

ayak is always winning at akkha so you want to take the switches if you have space anyway

[tacit crow]

Which you should be pushing invo instead of trying to get a 10 seconds quicker warden

[polar void]

One more question, do I use ayak at KQ for desert elite?

During melee phase or bowfa

[robust roost]

i haven't done any kq calcs but my assumption would be blue keris p1 and bowfa p2

or just camp blue keris if you have it

actually im pretty sure blue keris camp is the best thing if you don't have shadow lol

[polar void]

Probably, I'll calc it, ty

[robust roost]

fake ahh overheads

[viscid lark]

Ayak lets you 2:1 second phase so might be worth considering

[polar void]

That's hot

[robust roost]

7 way mage with ahrims/blue (top+bottom) wins over bowfa in a 400

bark does not

ofc assuning you have everything on prog sheet up to that point (mage's book, max treads etc)

[frozen olive]

Does that assume avg bgs

[robust roost]

assumes max bgs

and max ayak

the avg of both are max reduction anyway

assuming you have full oath

depending on what gear stage you're at avg bgs is 28-31 so /shrug

[polar void]

I suspected this

It's a really powerful weapon when you have all the appropriate accessories

[tepid goblet]

is the position of VW in the chart because it is important or just because it's easy to get from that point on?

I already have bclaws and soon bgs so I'm currently progressing through other gear instead of spamming wildy bosses

[hybrid blaze]

Easy to get

[real yacht]

I still don't have vw and dont miss it im at ultor ring

[craggy granite]

ultor or oathplate first in gear progression?

Oh, oathplate because defense matters

[indigo hollow]

Well, and it gives slash accuracy too

[polar void]

Oathplate is more important for Vard grind than Ultor is for Yama grind

[real yacht]

Agreed I have full oathplate and there are still plenty of instances where im hitting constant zeros

[strange nexus]

Yeah i think vard is the place oath shines the most followed by tob and duke

[robust roost]

it's also very high slash def vs a boss known for making you bank frequently

oh im grey now

[frozen olive]

Gz on GM

Big fan of brews at vard

[robust roost]

ty

big fan of blood fury at vard

the only place other than nex/colo im willing to use it

or random melee-only ca's

although i finished vard before rancour existed

[candid haven]

do you feel like bf is worth using at vard while owning scy? Comparing 2.8hrs/blood shard using scy Vs. 8.3hrs/shard using nhally, it feels like using my scy with bf is going to burn through charges very fast at vard (dont have many shards to begin with atm)

[robust roost]

i'm not sure scy is worth using there

it's like...barely better than nhally, if better at all

reminder that scythe only gets 2 hitsplats at vard

vard is 2x2

which also means it's only using 2 bf charges

it is still a lot better nvm

[candid haven]

Yea I dont think id downgrade scy + rancor to nhally + bf, just to use bf

[robust roost]

i would probably not use bf with scythe there

[candid haven]

kk thanks 🤝

[robust roost]

kinda varies per person tbh, depends how many blood shards you have, if you use them at nex (some people do rancour trios), how many you end up using at colo

vard is a good place to use them but there's still better

and im not familiar enough with rancour vard to know if it gets the same/better kph than bf, but torture definitely felt worse

[drowsy ore]

Expected vard total time to ultor is also way less than something like nex/ Colo surely

[hollow cobalt]

the kph difference between ranc and tort will basically never be a noticable amount

[robust roost]

nex yes

colo it really depends on the person

if you die a lot you'll spend a lot more bf charges

you don't need to rush blessed anymore and you'll get some amount of splinters from doom anyway

so unless you really want toenails, or you're learning it from scratch, you probably won't use that many bf charges

one of those "determine for yourself where you'll use bf charges" things

the only super important ones imo are solo nm, melee inferno and colo

[strange nexus]

You only use 2 charges at vard not 3 as its only a 2x2

[light prawn]

is there a TLDR of the most recent changes to the ladlor chart

[full panther]

here are the latest five bulks of changes, full overview available at https://www.ladlorchart.com/pages/changelog.html

[chilly cove]

couldn't these steps be compressed into one section btw?

[hybrid blaze]

They are separate grinds tbh

[hollow cobalt]

but the ordering doesn't matter at all

[robust roost]

oh god gnome has the chart up on stream

oh wait no

he has a different chart up that's formatted the same way and looks the same

oh he's just shitting on both of them lol sick

[inland cosmos]

Didn’t watch the stream but it is like the pvm exploration guide: https://discord.com/channels/166812746510368768/1404434573332447232

[inland cosmos]

Not surprising that he would shit on them seeing as they go against the misinformation he is trying to spread for content.

[robust roost]

i missed a lot of what he actually talked about but one of the first things he did was shit on the placement of fire cape vs bowfa

which the reason for is literally pinned here

early fire cape sucks

you either have to waste a bunch of time training melee stats without one to do a melee cape

or waste a bunch of time gathering ammo to do an extremely slow crossbow cape

and then said cape can't even be worn in cg lmao

[craggy granite]

gnomonkey looking at these charts and not reading anything or any supporting documents

and then saying everything is shit

he also said something like get augury and rigour before bowfa, you have everything you need for that post moons + titans or something like that

and seems like he shits on the idea of chinning

[inland cosmos]

Probably trying to push afk gem crab

[forest knot]

i dont think we should take the opinion of someone that rushes moons very seriously

[inland cosmos]

Kind of have to because a lot of people follow him and try and spread his misinformation here

[robust roost]

it is very hard to be a gm fan

[craggy granite]

he basically is saying everything as if you have access to be online and afk melees + ranged to 99 before doing any content

[inland cosmos]

Honestly that is not one of his worst takes

That sort of play style has been pushed by a lot of people before

And it is not as inefficient as other methods

[craggy granite]

Yeah, if you have access to doing that, then sure

[inland cosmos]

Right

It’s not efficient tho

[craggy granite]

if training melees + slayer is 0 time because you just autoretaliate those congrats

[woven nova]

Gonna have to start routing in pre account progression so that when u wanna make a new account you have to afk a few hundred hours before you wanna play it

[craggy granite]

I think that if preferring to train melees up asap above all else, and you can afk as much as you want, then moons for bloodmoon to get your best afk training makes sense

just you're not playing at the same time

if you have 2-3 accounts and you want to make a new account on the side

then by all means, rush moons there

[woven nova]

Then u cry cuz u realize u have no pots for pvm for ur 99 combats

[forest knot]

if you have infinite afk time then rushing moons for bloodmoon to improve afk seems a bit redundant

[craggy granite]

what do you mean, just catch moths forever

^ i agree

it's an overall weird take which makes up most of the gm criticism of the charts (and the fact that he does not care to read any other parts there)

like PvM Exploration -> Why are you doing bludgeon, just take gear off! type of thing when that's not the point of that chart

[woven nova]

Anything to keep the rs boom alive

[craggy granite]

and for Ladlor, ignoring bruhsailor entirely, and questioning why certain content isn't there or at different places

[robust roost]

im regularly tempted to make another Ironman just to follow the ladlor chart to see how it feels

[craggy granite]

I more or less have been following it, some deviations. I got titans prayers immediately after bowfa cause I got dual maccas as a crush weapon, I think that zombie axe isn’t that much worse than hasta

I also got first synapse and claws before zenytes

I know I’m short on slayer points, still have to unlock broader fletching

[robust roost]

i got tbow before dex or bowfa or anything like that so it completely destroyed any form of linear progression lol

[craggy granite]

I was before 94 magic, and didn’t want to run gwd without ice barrage (to not take dmg from melee)

I’m probably doing gwd after doom at this point though

Zenytes -> Bandos -> Doom -> the rest of gwd

Addy ore from Bandos and seeing what other upgrades I get, etc

[fossil flame]

its changed so much since i started like trident is no longer even there lance placement is changed etc oh ye synpases as well have been insane change

game changes rapidly its pretty cool even if u follow the path it might change with new updates

[craggy granite]

there are just so many assumptions built into a lot of the decisions

which really means we are free to do w/e we want

[fossil flame]

theres just so many give and takes theres always advantages to kinda doing things diffrently

like u can get bp pre delve or after delve like guide its hard

[craggy granite]

I figure that delve learning mechanics is going to be the main thing, and it seems bp car phase is nice, but either way learning how to do second trees or w/e

[fossil flame]

i personally really wanted rigour alot earlier then the guide but ye easier said then done luckily i got it pre lance

[craggy granite]

just has a lot of value so i can consistently delve deeper

so I'm not in a hurry to do BP

[dire torrent]

Link or didn't happen.

[robust roost]

nah you right

i made it up

[quiet schooner]

Gnomonkey is a know R word so none of this is surprising

[craggy granite]

I am doing rigour in post-whip/tent whip unless I get a second enh

which i'm just doing an hour or so a week of cg

either way post delve

TDs, Zenytes and Delve are so accessible that it feels silly not to do those early on

[hybrid blaze]

Phew. If he liked it that might be a cause for major reworks

[craggy granite]

I'm at this point, and for me next up is Karamja Elite, 2nd Scepter + POH, Lumby Elite, Wrath Runes(?)

Personally after I get 94 magic I'm looking at collo and inferno for a single KC, and I am debating whether to do dwh with alt outside of slayer

Then Anguish -> Delve

[robust roost]

honestly

i think if you don't already have wrath RC by the point you reach yama

you can probably skip it

because he'll give you a fuckload

[craggy granite]

@full panther if there was an export/screenshot option on the site, that'd be good

[craggy granite]

I'm basically just going for rc while multiskilling zmi at that point

[robust roost]

if anything i'd get rc to 90 for aethers and stop there because aethers are goated

[craggy granite]

cause that's going to be crafting for me

i'm finishing up 87 crafting now and i have like 91(ish) banked atm

[robust roost]

or 88 and use the funny goblin for RC boost and then you can orange stew +3 for karamja elites later

[craggy granite]

i mostly want wrath runes by the time I get to cerb

and ideally for abby demons, but i don't feel too strongly that

[robust roost]

if you grind oathplate relatively soon

you'll have enough wraths for any amount of offerings

[craggy granite]

I don't think Oathplate before Rancour makes sense in my head?

but maybe, given that it's something that can be done whenever

[robust roost]

there's some order microing you can do probably

do yama when you don't have wraths

do cerb/abby demons/anything else you'd want them for when you do

[craggy granite]

I can join the cc for tob and get avernic and then do yama pre-rancour

[midnight dome]

yo I haven't been keeping up, lance nor obsolete for cox? Last thing I heard was scythe is too expensive to use there for irons, did this change with oathplate?

[craggy granite]

inferno + tob + delve boots, I'll be better off than most people running it with rancour

[robust roost]

if you get at least 1 wrath drop on the way to dc upgrade, that should be enough to last your cerb grind at least

i don't think price has ever been a point of consideration for scythe

[midnight dome]

it was last time I discussed it, the argument was basically that the difference in ttk was too small to justify spending all the money on bloods

cost vs time save

[robust roost]

considering two of the earliest things you do are "complete sepulchre" and "grind bowfa"

[frozen olive]

they also made it cheaper to use last year

[robust roost]

gp should never ever be an issue for scything

that is true, however the move was very recent

[frozen olive]

yeah I don't have a frame of reference for mr calves here

[midnight dome]

just wondering what prompted the move 🙂

[robust roost]

would have to ask ladlor himself or whoever he discussed with before making that change, but i cannot for the life of me envision scythe being as late as it was because of its cost

[midnight dome]

I've been using scythe anyways because it's more fun

[frozen olive]

it was always too late on the chart

oathplate didn't change that

but it does help it for sure

[robust roost]

lance is obsolete period

[midnight dome]

oh so lance obsolete is unrelated?

[robust roost]

i think the only reason laddy left it there was because it's convenient for killing vorkath and trying to explain its removal would be more trouble than it's worth lol

and you may need it for CA's

specifically the vorkath gm time and the huey dhunter weapon one

[midnight dome]

so I guess just fang/whip until scythe, don't bother the detour

[frozen olive]

its also way easier of a grind than scythe if you would want to do some cox, lotta ppl wait on raids

[robust roost]

do as much tob as you can stomach with whip/fang

even the kraken tentacle is largely unnecessary

although if you were trying to use WDR to raid you do need a tent minimum

[midnight dome]

halberd go brr I guess

[robust roost]

also works

[frozen olive]

they do have a huge nox hally disclaimer tho

[midnight dome]

anyways ty for info 🙂 changes nothing for me personally I was just curious

[robust roost]

yeah as much as i believe in wdr i do not agree with their evaluation on nox

and calcs also don't support their opinion (other than on nyloboss, which assumes you never miss ticks on bp)

though it is true that most people will lose dps p2 trying to use nox over tent

[frozen olive]

I mean you just gotta account for absolute lowest denominator of raider so I get it

[robust roost]

"assume the mechanical prowess of a 5 year old or an 85 year old" is pretty accurate

[craggy granite]

When doing tob grind I’m just going to blade and not thinking about it too hard, the priff changes have given so many shards overall and they’re so much more accessible

[robust roost]

oh yeah we've actually discussed that here before too

[craggy granite]

I’ve been pushing for that

[robust roost]

reverting bowfa before the tob grind

but like you have to be very committed lol

[midnight dome]

I tried hally yesterday for a no scythe run for the ca and I didn't like it at all

mostly because my muscle memory threw me off with not getting dragged

but I'm sure you can get used to it

[craggy granite]

Not really, slayer bosses don’t need bowfa, vard and duke don’t either

Doing blade early clumps the progression together

[robust roost]

yeah but if you want to do either other raid, not having it sucks really bad

[craggy granite]

yeah

I’m doing cox prayers first

[midnight dome]

I mean if you happen to get a dhcb you can atleast do cox+tob

[robust roost]

cox is kinda okay without

just don't do vesp

lol

[midnight dome]

yeah its not that bad

[craggy granite]

I’ll do toa for fang + lightbearer first anyways

So I can fang hydra

And cox prayers are locked in

[robust roost]

yeah you want at least fang, lb and rigour before you start a tob grind

well lb isn't that important

but definitely fang + rig

[craggy granite]

Yeah, just saying that most of the grinds at that point don’t use bowfa, and if putting tob during slayer, should be good

[full panther]

I agree, havent figured out how yey

So gnomonkey checked out the chart again huh

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I watched part of it. Basically said do moons & afk combat, and then rush towards rigour/augury then bowfa lmao

[full panther]

Fair enough

[craggy granite]

The if you have infinite time route

[midnight dome]

the my wife levels up my next hardcore for me route

🙂

[full panther]

Even if u start with 99 cmbs, is that route even better tho

[craggy granite]

If you can afk combats instead of playing for 6 hours a day, then sure

[full panther]

Maybe it is idk

[midnight dome]

I don't think it is better but gnome just goes off vibes so it doesn't really matter

[craggy granite]

he wants to make content so he wants to run them sooner, so he has bloodmoon for faster afk

Like that’s genuinely the reason stated “bloodmoon afk is so good”

I swear

[full panther]

Thats valid then but surely a niche preference

[robust roost]

https://www.youtube.com/live/4MqG447WiCc?si=qLnEI7-MgnuFpecQ&t=24389 this is where it starts

[full panther]

Anyways, hope this remains contained ish

Last time he checked it out was fair enough

He didnt like it then, and was surprised, but remained respectful

[midnight dome]

everybody is entitled to their opinion

[hybrid blaze]

This money is kinda gone quickly. Especially the cg gp is imo weirdly overrated

[robust roost]

idk his opinions aren't exactly expressed as opinions a lot of the time lol

whether he intends to do that or not

[hybrid blaze]

If you skip lance, is there a non-scythe alternative for olm?

[robust roost]

if we go off chart the alternative would be tent whip

[midnight dome]

nox hally again (lul)

you might also run out of whips, atleast I did. gotta keep that in mind

[robust roost]

considering how many times he refers to the chart or the things within as bad/stupid/useless, i'm not feeling much respect lol

[hybrid blaze]

That doesn't sound great. Maybe lance should not be removed then?

Especially since you do hydra for gloves anyway

[hybrid blaze]

Just ignore it

[robust roost]

well the idea is you do hydra for gloves and then leave

if you get claw you get lance cool, if not then you have to justify spending an extra 33 hours on avg to grind it

[hybrid blaze]

There are other dragons where lance is good though, I would not be comfortable assuming that people have a scythe

[robust roost]

scythe helps more at both cox and toa than either of the megas from those raid help at tob is my other line of thinking

on top of scythe being probably the fastest mega to grind now?

[hybrid blaze]

Is that assuming a fixed skilled team, or 406?

[robust roost]

assuming you are consistently doing non-wiping trios

[hybrid blaze]

I don't think that's going to happen? Most people have zero connections and experience

It takes a while to find and be allowed into decent tob teams

[craggy granite]

He was calling pvm exploration stupid when a lot of it is “hey, if you click the links to get to a doc you can get an explanation that this is to help you progress through the game if you want to do bosses”

[hybrid blaze]

The learning curve at tob is also rough because you are dependent on the time schedule of teammates

Even if it's fast when done well I think practically tob is hit-or-miss

[robust roost]

all the raids have a learning curve, especially if you're trying to solo the other two

and toa in particular is brutal, if you aren't doing 400+ the rates to see a shadow are horrific

[hybrid blaze]

Just ignore the gnome

[craggy granite]

If you leave Tob at the end you’re at the same place as you were earlier

[hybrid blaze]

The learning curve at toa is super gentle, imo it doesn't compare

[full panther]

The tob situation is a bit brutal imo ye

[robust roost]

learning toa sucks man

a lot of simple mistakes get punished for 40+ damage even if you're only doing mid invos

and the raid is long as all hell and draining

[full panther]

The chart was never going to accomodate the scythe getters and ignorers at the same time

Ans the tob afraiders are the likely majority userbase tbf

[hybrid blaze]

You could like put scythe and lance in parallel paths, like "get one"

[robust roost]

the chart is supposed to be for people who want the fastest route to progressing through to best in slot gear right

[hybrid blaze]

No?

If you want literal fastest to max you'd skip so much on this chart

[fossil flame]

i agree with the sentiment of not having connection and team froming for tob being rough but at same time ud have to make them regardless when u get to tob sooner or later

[robust roost]

i thought that was the entire point of it and why the conversation of skipping lance ever came up in the first place lol

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah but later is easier with more other accomplishments

[full panther]

That is my understanding too tbf

Dont forfeit account progression, and also minimize time assuming u want all items on chart

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah that is more how I understand it

That's different from 'minmax to bis'

[full panther]

I see

[hybrid blaze]

Just like how BRUHsailer is for general account progression, but you'd cut out a bunch of steps on e.g. a maxing speedrun

[fossil flame]

in general guide has always been a bit on the extreme side feel like if ppl get to mrare stage its gona be rough

[hybrid blaze]

Sorry Ladlor I haven't contributed to the chart in a while, I didn't mean to tell you what the chart should be. You should decide what the criteria are, I was only pushing back a bit against assuming early scythe

[midnight dome]

lategame mega rare hunting is just rough on an iron in general

it takes a lot of time to progress at that point

[full panther]

I agree with the points made and it was a rough decision lol

[robust roost]

the one thing mr gm said about this that i sort of agree with is that, for bruhsailer in particular, the guide tells you to max agility at sepulchre early, which almost nobody is going to do

[full panther]

The consequences of lance ignore if not getting scythe are kind of huge

[fossil flame]

even shadow route before eye i feel like its hard to demand somebody to grind a item like that

[hybrid blaze]

Read the friggin guide man. It explicitly says you can leave at 82 agility

[full panther]

The more conservative step is keeping lance where it originally wa

[fossil flame]

well ig u arent demanding but it just gets to that point if u wana "follow guide"

[midnight dome]

who is mr gm

[hybrid blaze]

Gnomonkey

You really really shouldn't rely on him to do any reading for you

[midnight dome]

ah lol. I was about to say he's not the only gm hahaha

[full panther]

But he won guidemaker golden gnome guys

[robust roost]

oh then he just flat out lied then, apologies

[hybrid blaze]

He needs the lie otherwise people will start looking into the guide

Gotta emphasise fire cape after bowfa and 99 agil

To make sure people don't actually start to think

[craggy granite]

He doesn’t open any written content, but tbf most people don’t do much reading

Honestly, gear progression YouTube shorts

Probably goes hard

[robust roost]

calling torso useless when it takes a lot less time to get than a blood moon top

is fucking insane

[midnight dome]

he pretty much always does very surface level analysis. His dps calcs are kind of a meme as well

[craggy granite]

Having a playlist explaining things quickly for those steps

[robust roost]

"skipping herb sack because that's fucking insane" completely ignoring the context that you're getting herb sack because you did a bunch of tithe farm for farming xp to unlock contracts

like that's just common sense lol

[fossil flame]

what was his reasoning for skipping bowfa hcim? i think i asked before but i forgot

[robust roost]

because he thinks atlatl is good enough

and he has 62 spoons up his ass so he doesn't actually have to deal with the nonsense he feeds others

[midnight dome]

he got a giga spoon tbow so his plan worked out

yea

although atlatl is actually not that bad but its not great either

[fossil flame]

good players can make it work but ye i doubt he sees that stuff as being more optimal then landlor guide

[full panther]

The sourcecode is public, itd be interesting to see what he’d make if he bothered

[robust roost]

someone did ask him to and i think he said he would lol

so that'll be interesting

but like

him and b0aty and probably other content creators think that shit like barrows and moons rush is optimal and efficient

[craggy granite]

It’s optimal stream content

[full panther]

I fell for the barrows for chaos rune then fury bait back in the days

Mr mammal was a menace

[rugged token]

skilling bad, pvm good
time to do swamp boaty barrows

[robust roost]

"a lot of times you're using tome of fire"

??????

this is so delusional i'm in pain

[midnight dome]

hahaha

[robust roost]

does this man not know how fucking rare tomes are LMAO

[midnight dome]

even if you have it you barely use it

maybe for some early game alching if you want to save fire runes but thats pretty much it

[shell basin]

guys is there a ironman skilling discord?

[craggy granite]

I don’t know how I have so many chaos runes rn

[robust roost]

what the heck

ironman skilling methods isn't on the server whitelist

crazy

but yes there is

[craggy granite]

Oh, cg gave me chaos runes

[robust roost]

i linked it in dm

[hybrid blaze]

The link is in #1052266500041478246

[craggy granite]

For onyx you sell chaos runes at overstock price, right?

9 tokkul each?

[robust roost]

yes

[craggy granite]

Cool, I’m still not sure how I’ve got over 50k chaos runes but we take those

[forest knot]

can confirm, been hunting scy since january, life sucks

[midnight dome]

f

luckily I am a big spoon

[frail sonnet]

Thats based though

[full panther]

it'd be an easier progression to build, less assumptions to take care of

[round pond]

Lance is meta if youre too antisocial to team up for tob

[full panther]

pretty much. Tob likely isn't as bad as most people think imo though

frontloaded with some difficulty that goes beyond mechanics, e.g. handling some pressure where your fuckups impact the rest or whatever

[real yacht]

Tob is free these days people just hop into entry mode and learn.

But too lazy to even do that

[real yacht]

Side note at toa also being super unforgiving and harsh a 530 is only 8% purple chance these days which is insane.