Gear Progression Chart

[robust roost]

ive seen arguments for dds over vw at tob

that was before oath existed

i spent a lot of time trying to figure out what to use before i had dclaws both before and after scythe

ended up settling on bclaws+chally

[frail sonnet]

yeah heard that too

altho it was never relevant to me so I didnt look into how legit it is

[tacit crow]

Depends on scale, but you can definitely fit a lot of voidwaker specs outside of that.

Sote on higher scales. Using it on mage phase nylo is very fun. Xarpus you can get a voidwaker chally to end if you have lightbearer and aren't scything.

Also for skipping 30s of course.

[frail sonnet]

im assuming trio

[tacit crow]

You can still use at nylo boss/xarp in those scales

[hollow cobalt]

And maiden

[tacit crow]

Yeah and maiden

Doubly so for maiden if you have someone ralosing

[frail sonnet]

definitely better to DDS at the 0 defence boss at least

I cba doing the exact math but compare auto vs 2x DDS vs 1 VW definitely leads me to believe its better overall

in 4 tick intervals your expected damage is 47 47 vs 52 ~31 / ~32

[hollow cobalt]

now look at p2 verzik

on a 0 def boss, by doing 2 dds instead of 1 vw and 2 pipes you've gained ~1t worth of damage

On p2 by doing a vw instead of bad specs or just afk whipping you gain uh.... much more than that

[frail sonnet]

yes its good at verzik

so just bring all 3

[hollow cobalt]

I don't think bringing a dds to save ~2t over the raid is particularly useful

[frail sonnet]

youd use it maiden bloat xarpus and maybe nylo maybe not, I have no idea how to calculate whether speccing mage is good or not

and if DDS allows u to secure 2 down it saves many more ticks

[hollow cobalt]

if you don't have claws you're prob better off being the bgs andy

[tacit crow]

If you hit fine on first BGS you still voidwaker if not you send 2

[hollow cobalt]

you have to choose what items to bring somewhere and dds definitely would be the least valuable thing in most people's invents

[fossil flame]

how does bclaws compare to all of this? assuming claws was refering to dclaws?

[hollow cobalt]

kinda between the 2. better at low def stuff than vw, worse on high def. worse than dds on low def stuff, better on high def

If you're willing drop drop your dds every raid that's prob ok since it saves space, but that's kinda expensive

[tacit crow]

We have sulphur blades at home energy for irons

[robust roost]

there’s surely something else you can bring that saves more than 2t or even 4t lol

also voidwaker on nylo boss when your mage dmg is 0 kinda goes stupid

[high valley]

why does the chart say to go:
avernic treads -> rite of vile transference -> eye and cloth

[hollow cobalt]

could all be the same, makes no diff

but treads help a bit at yama, dc makes no diff at doom with no spec weapons

[high valley]

yeah like if you just have bp/chally/dwh idk if 2x death charge matters much

and cloth would help at yama

i might just do all 3 uniques at doom first before starting yama

[chilly ruin]

you won’t even have bp per the chart so would just be chally rly

[high valley]

kk so yeah not sure why its ordered like that

could probably group all 4 drops into the same step

[full panther]

definitely

the cross-dependence is not very high lol

[radiant pelican]

Having a tough time deciding what to do right now after getting blessed with eye and cloth before treads. do I go straight to zulrah for BP to help me get treads? or will zulrah be slow without an occult? guess i could DPS check it

people are telling me to not even use mage at zulrah and do bowfa/chally

[full panther]

the eye of ayak is near absurdly strong when relevant compared to the alternatives, i doubt that advice

[radiant pelican]

Here is DPS check with my gear/the three phases of zulrah:

it'd be dumb to tribrid zulrah right

like chally spec swap, eye swap for serp phase and bowfa spaw for tanzanite?

[frail sonnet]

idk but it sounds pretty cool

[radiant pelican]

lol it does but it sounds like a lot of work. do people usually reset zulrah after every kill? like reset spec

[frail sonnet]

cant maintain tele scrolls with 1kc trips

[full panther]

regarding tribrid, chally never wins best dps so thats an easy no

[full panther]

ok, compare with occult also, because this just looks like a close call atm

[frail sonnet]

good thing DPS is an irrelevant metric regarding chally

[full panther]

7.3 vs 6.1 is ish significant

[full panther]

oh right, not as a poking device but just dump spec, right

nvm then

[frail sonnet]

not dump spec either, just at the end of any phase before she dives and surfaces

[full panther]

ah, thats what i had in mind, but didnt articulate that idea at all lol

[frail sonnet]

dumping spec on melee phase is prob not a bad idea tho for bowfa campers

[radiant pelican]

so maybe just bring chally for specs (but no other str swap?) and then dump specs at end of phase and then do normal eye/bowfa

[silent pasture]

If I’m only using Bowfa I should be chally wacking everytime she goes down or just melee phase? And I bring tort zerker and fire cape and I feel like the chally wack on melee hits 1/10 times for a 20. Is that normal lol

[full panther]

either way for your purposes i think just waiting for occult is not going to be terrible either way

chally or not, maybe thats negligible though

i realize i should try zulrah with chally to have some idea of what im talking about on this matter

[radiant pelican]

i guess i can just use the eye spec as well instead of chally spec

occult will def save a few seconds per kill but BP at doom will save like over a minute a run

after 800 doom kc no BP i am so tired of doing 2 shield phases every time lol

[polar void]

BP with dragon darts rips apart doom, I think it's worth getting imo

He even drops a lot of drag dart tips

[radiant pelican]

Very true sir. I decided I'm locking myself at zulrah until I get BP and then back to doom

Like I have to deal with double shield phase on 6, 7, and 8. 8+ I sometimes don't get a double phase cause less HP but still. It'd annoying af not having BP for car

I love the gear progression chart but that's what I'd change (assuming you get cloth + eye before treads)

[fossil flame]

imo tbh without rigour its gona be rough either way to skip phases bp definitely really good though

[radiant pelican]

To skip a second shield phase? Damn.

[tacit crow]

Check your BP max hit with deadeye and amethyst/ddarts.

[radiant pelican]

Dps calc won't let me check cause you can't have the car phase as an enemy

[tacit crow]

doesnt matter your max hit is gonna be the same

car phase just means you have 100% accuracy

[radiant pelican]

I mean, it matters because i can't compare car phase scobo vs BP

[tacit crow]

Im just trying to give you a reference point here, my guy.

[cursive flint]

Just set the boss as crab idk surely it's a good reference point

[radiant pelican]

Lol okay, max hit of 31 with 43% accuracy for BP. Scobo is max hit of 50 with accuracy of 74.5%

[tacit crow]

so if you use dragon darts you are 1 max hit off from rigour

youll be fine skipping

31 is same max hit as rigour amethyst

and I skip very frequently 9+ with that

[radiant pelican]

Ah I see what u were doing lol. Great, thank you Matt, good to hear

That's great news

And u skip 6-8 frequently too?

[tacit crow]

6 yeah, 7 and 8 not really

the boss loses 50 hp 8+, but 8 is most hp it ever has

[radiant pelican]

True. Thank you

[polar void]

With BP you will still likely have to double shield phase most of the time unless you're using drag arrows/tbow

But it makes it less often for sure and you'll have the healing/extra damage from BP Specs

It just depends on how good you become with BPing during car phase and your rockfall rng

[radiant pelican]

I use drag arrows on 8+. I also set up rocks where I can get nonstop BPing for sure

I don't think I'll have double shield most of the time tbh but I'll see when I get there lol I'm already committed to zulrah

[real yacht]

I could be wrong here and more than likely am but I am shocked that quiver is higher on the list than tbow. Probably because the content isnt that hard but it does little to nothing for any content it seems besides chambers 1 max hit for bowfa. I assume it has more to do with blow pipe but not sure am I missing somethi9ng

[frozen olive]

It's also good for scobo, and has accuracy
It's just a guaranteed upgrade like infernal

[tacit crow]

I think you are forgetting it's also +10 accuracy anywhere you range in the game. Regardless of your weapon type

[real yacht]

yeah makes sense calcs just don't reflect that its worth much of anything but again its a 100% guaranteed upgrade that doesn't use charges, why not.

[polar void]

Tbow is on rate a pretty lengthy grind, I'd imagine having quiver before long-term Cox is pretty useful, hell if you can do colo well you should go get it before delve

The accuracy from quiver is especially useful for expert warden, farming the shadow

[hollow cobalt]

Quiver is a pretty big upgrade for ranging and it's a relatively short grind if you're starting from 0

[full panther]

quiver and infernal both likely have arguments for earlier sequence, but theyre fully skill-gated with no RNG, so the chart argues only for how long they could reasonably be delayed.

and reasonable does remain fully subjetive, but a 300 hour grind beforehand for something that doesn't even solve the difficulty, only curb it a bit, is deemed unreasonable

[lunar lodge]

Imo colo should be done as soon as you are able, which is gonna be an entirely personal decision.

I think people should just start looking into it for themselves and decide if it's something they want to do.

Its place on the chart as it is right now is "You honestly haven't gotten this by now? Shame on you. Go get it."

Although I personally would slot it before inferno cape in any event.

[hollow cobalt]

well all the melee stuff helps with colo and not really with inferno

[lunar lodge]

That kinda doesn't match my experience at all

Sol is a pushover. I don't even consider him worthy of consideration in the difficulty of colo.

A first quiver is gonna be almost all ranged, then killing Sol with whatever you've got.

[hollow cobalt]

well it definitely doesn't do much for inferno

[lunar lodge]

I'm really not arguing that quiver is a life changing experience at inferno.

All I'm saying is that the value of infernal at colo is basically actually zero. And the value of quiver is slightly above non-zero.

[hollow cobalt]

think that's just wrong

[lunar lodge]

Then your experience with this content must be totally different than mine.

[hollow cobalt]

it's not just inferno, it's cape+oath+ultor

and that's pretty good for sol+waves

[lunar lodge]

I don't really know when you're using all of those things on waves.

But my opinion is that Sol doesn't really matter if the fight takes a few seconds more or less. You'll have to engage and solve the mechanics anyway. And you'll only have to do it once.

[hollow cobalt]

fang is pretty good to melee things

[lunar lodge]

We have done this at completely different phases in the account. I don't think we're even speaking the same language.

[hollow cobalt]

what

if you're following the prog, you'd have a bowfa, fang and whip/nox for boss

[frozen olive]

I did trident/bowfa/fang/blade, and meleed most of the waves because it was my best dps

[fossil flame]

its not a speedrun imo i think learners ranging is better

[frozen olive]

Also allows you to take myopia without griefing yourself

[hollow cobalt]

I'm figuring people run something like this https://i.imgur.com/EwVIb77.png

[frozen olive]

Yep

[hollow cobalt]

minus the sgs

pipe spec instead ig

[frozen olive]

Sure but the longer you sit dealing with a south spawn the harder it is dealing with reinforcements

[fossil flame]

ye idt melee is bad but meleeing is also harder even with myo 3 u can get alot of value from having ranged

most setups combine both but there are melee only truthers

[hollow cobalt]

you still have ranged lol

[frozen olive]

For sure you still run the range switch

[hollow cobalt]

look at the setup

[fossil flame]

ye

[craggy granite]

I was thinking Ancients to do it earlier and w/o sgs makes sense
going for a single completion is different than grinding it out

someone here did it like that and I think that it's just making it more doable earlier

[hollow cobalt]

idk that setup seems fine

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I mostly think that going for Quiver before going for Delves makes sense

blowpipe + scobow will benefit from it, and it's probably taking less time than getting treads

[real yacht]

Id say this is the standard. I run rancor as well and just replace blood fury over sgs

[hollow cobalt]

just grabbed it from deer's disc

[craggy granite]

why does ladlor have chem amulet instead of reagent pouch btw?

[inland cosmos]

because reag pouch isnt better?

[real yacht]

Reag is just qol amulet gets more potions and goggles saves 2ndaries

[craggy granite]

Got it, I think bruhsailer guide said get goggles + pouch instead

I thought that reag pouch makes multi-skilling herblore more viable

[drowsy ore]

I thought Reagant got banned for multi skill use

[craggy granite]

I genuinely have no clue how it works

[frail sonnet]

I cant agree, I went green avas to quiver and think it will be very useful at Inferno, I did quiver while missing like 10 maxes I should’ve had following normal progression

[hollow cobalt]

we're talking about an upgrade that saves you like 10s on a 2 hr cape

[chilly ruin]

it was also not your first quiver

the placement of cape/quiver can be entirely different if the content isnt new to you

[hollow cobalt]

Both are very very minor for the other thing

[frail sonnet]

I would never downplay a max like that

[hollow cobalt]

it was not a max on either pipe or bowfa for the setup i checked

but for other setups it's very possible

[tacit crow]

I'll never understand why so many people want to argue about a part of a chart that is clearly subjective to your own experience.

[frail sonnet]

look at this its crazy

[hollow cobalt]

ye other setups will be diff

but a max 1/4 of the time is still very minor

[fossil flame]

amulet ive heard is pretty mid when u factor in time to get jades/stringing the amulets

feel like pouch is better personally but doing mixology to get rewards is pretty good regardless

[polar void]

You guys think it's worth getting quiver before delve? I'm 270 deeps in and still only have cloth. I'm using rune arrows because I used up most of my drag arrows. I feel like I need the DPS boost

I'd be using a tent whip and bowfa + toxic trident. I have a blood fury too to help me do the waves

It's hard to push on knowing I could be here for another 30+ hours without treads/eye using fricken rune arrows

[hollow cobalt]

if you grind out a quiver and charges you might get to only do 29.5 hrs of doom with rune arrows

[frail sonnet]

I told you that I went from green ava to quiver

its 3 str for me

[hollow cobalt]

ok but you can also get an assembler

nvm

[frail sonnet]

waste of time and in efficient

[hollow cobalt]

i see you're just trolling. see ya

[woven nova]

hired bait

[craggy granite]

If you can, I don’t see why not?
I plan on doing that myself

Its an upgrade that’ll keep its value

[polar void]

Fair

[fossil flame]

if ur good enough to do it early just do it imo

the upgrades pre quiver/inferno are just to help you complete it once not grind it out

but i wouldint really do that if u dont have some prior experince /completions under ur belt

[polar void]

I have zero inferno or colo experience, but I feel more PVM confident after somewhat mastering delve

[full panther]

100% send it if you have even a little bit of an itch to

[polar void]

Colo seems way more approachable

Am I wrong in assuming this

[fossil flame]

colo is really fast attempts some ppl argue its harder others say its easier

imo its more approachable due to how fast it is

[polar void]

That was my thought process

Best iron colo guide?

[fossil flame]

we have a colo chat

big thing is not having sgs u can grind blood fury/or use ancients to compensate

wdr has a great guide for like nearly all the stacks u can see

[robust matrix]

any talks about earlier venator bow now with ayak around and making melee muspah easier to deal with?

since you get like 14k cannon balls and a ton of ranarr seeds, can help out rest of slayer grind

[hollow cobalt]

you already have enough ranarrs

[real yacht]

I personally think its harder just cause there isnt a free solve that is 2t flicking most times and I think the a+b off tick is much harder mechanically when you get 2x south with manti

[chilly cove]

Don’t do A/B offticks for double south spawns. Rotate north instead. https://youtu.be/t1qDqa_SXpk?si=ZGF-QcaBJVqImLYu

[real yacht]

I guess this makes sense I always get paraylsis when a mage/range is south so I have to tank a hit but tanking 1 hit is better than dying lol

gonna have to internalize these methods

and get that sweet jag safe spot

[robust roost]

quick, someone do a prog chart for starting from 99 combat stats at gem crab

🤠

[drowsy ore]

I mean dscimi sucks compared to later on when you got better weapons

If anything it would be Dscimi camp till 100 combat to skip nieve

[robust roost]

yeah just a random shower thought lol

it's very easy to passively level an account to very high stats over a month or two

at gem crab

much easier than it ever was at normal crabs. no aggro resetting, no chance of getting crashed, visible timer on screen

1 click 3 second run to the next spawn

[chilly ruin]

did a little bit of theorycrafting for this and adamant crossbow for ranged is the big wildcard

at least like, it is disproportionately good relative to the ranged level you can wield it at

you’re capped to 60 damage for ruby bolt procs at the crab but it doesn’t matter, still better than darts/knives unless you start assuming things like eagle eye and range pots

[robust roost]

is it better xp/hr on a 0 def target than bone cbow?

[chilly ruin]

it is on the gemstone crab bc the damage never falls off yea

youll hit 60s all the way through

[robust roost]

ahhh with the ruby bolts i c

[chilly ruin]

yeah

[robust roost]

i can imagine a world where my hc fucking dies somehow

ruby bolting itself to eventually 1hp and getting hit by the crab lol

[chilly ruin]

you can at least theoretically stand out of melee range, but…

[robust roost]

oh true true

idk if he can reach people lol

[chilly ruin]

i don’t think so but i haven’t spent much time there

[normal prism]

What spots, after bgs, uses bgs?

[hollow cobalt]

toa, tob, team cox/cm

[north acorn]

toa duke corp and a bunch other places

[hollow cobalt]

not duke anymore

[north acorn]

oh nice

what do people use now?

[hollow cobalt]

bclaws

[tacit crow]

Or voidwaker

[robust roost]

may i ask why this is the case

i would've thought bgs became even higher value with the 80 added hp

[hollow cobalt]

oathplate goes pretty hard

[robust roost]

hmm

i have to look at this from non scythe lenses

oh bigger question actually

[hollow cobalt]

haven't seen the math for less good gear

[robust roost]

why treads before yama? base treads in the presumed gear at yama don't add any max hit, presumed you stay 118 str

[hollow cobalt]

accuracy technically does something, spec does nothing really at doom

but none of it matters

should really just all be one block

[robust roost]

scobow spec is 10 free damage on a regular shot, i'd like to think that's more impactful than 5 acc at yama

but yeah i kinda felt like the order there didn't matter either

[indigo hollow]

Scobow spec does 5 burn damage, not 10

[robust roost]

oh? i thought it was 10 mb

[indigo hollow]

Yeah it’s the one case that isn’t 10 afaik

[robust roost]

yeah every other burn weapon does 10 per application instead of scobow apparently

wild

i imagine if you have a blowpipe already the value of dc upgrade before doom goes up tremendously

[indigo hollow]

And yet somehow scobow spec is not considered a “weak” burn (which doesn’t exist yet but if that’s not weak then idk what would be)

[hollow cobalt]

the math on treads at yama vs more scobo specs at doom is basically a wash

shit just don't matter

[robust roost]

you could also be like me and go rank 60 at doom before seeing treads

smile

oh i see the 98 agility thing was removed lol

[somber dagger]

no it wasnt, just diffrent picutre

[robust roost]

the idea is still there but the express guideline of "get 98 agility" is now just "do sepulchre" instead xd

[woven nova]

ideally u do it past 92 for f5 loot

but its still okay ish either way

[robust roost]

id imagine you push the mta stuff and ice barrage to the same block as sep but idk

since a lot of the mage xp comes from alching at sep

that makes no sense nvm

[woven nova]

mage xp will be issue if u want ice barrage at the start of slayer but u can just use smoke or something

divine mage pots help

[opaque bay]

ranger boots not on here?

[austere pecan]

ranger boots are a long grind for an almost 0 upgrade

you can send it whenever you want really

[opaque bay]

hmm how about SRA?

[hollow cobalt]

even worse

[opaque bay]

but i notice three dt2 ring grinds come before tob

surely you'd be mostly done SRA by the time you get to tob, right?

i thought SRA was good for tob

[tacit crow]

Is tob being late to appease the noobs? Im personally routing scythe after ultor

surely if you tob you know you just send it when you have team

[tacit crow]

It's not gonna increase your tob time to completion the amount of time it takes to finish SRA

[fossil flame]

imo its just more safe to go for bow/ prob dclaws otw its also a upgrade for tob

having non stop teams might be rough but i can see the potiential scy>tbow+dclaws

[hollow cobalt]

I don't think sra is worth even if you're 3/4

just go to tob

but yes I think tob is way too late on the prog

[tacit crow]

I'd rather have scythe for bow grind than bow for scythe grind

pre hits be damned

[fossil flame]

i agree for sure though i think u have good chance to get claws+tbow which is still prob worse then scy for cox

[tacit crow]

burning claws/voidwaker also exist as a in-between

[fossil flame]

ye just my take but i like the ability to swap between raids if i want definitely seems good though if u can straight grind to scy

[real yacht]

the idea of upkeeping a scy keeps me away from tob lol

[hollow cobalt]

it's not hard at all

[fossil flame]

nice thing about chambers is even if u dont get bow u get other uniques to

[hollow cobalt]

everything shits out gp

[real yacht]

that is true I def have like 40m in alchs just sitting in the bank

[frail sonnet]

Its not

type !sra in any channel in WDR

[opaque bay]

why the fuck this thing worth 290 mill then

[frail sonnet]

Same reason pegs were 30m pre delve for years despite being a useless shit item

[opaque bay]

is it good anywhere else?

[hollow cobalt]

grinding out sra for tob is the same dumb nonsense as gridning out blade was

[opaque bay]

cuz i spooned a couple pieces and was thinking of finishing it

[hollow cobalt]

melee weapons other than scy just aren't good

[viscid lark]

if you don't have scythe then SRA is extremely good in lots of places

[hollow cobalt]

so you pot tob with a reg whip or whatever else you have

and get a scythe

[viscid lark]

but how good something is, is a different question than how worth grinding it is

[frail sonnet]

Its bis at vardorvis and random slayer mobs and thats pretty much it as far as where its actually bis

[viscid lark]

if you're 3/4 i would just get it though tbh

[hollow cobalt]

it's like yes you can grind out full torva before touchign raids

but it's just not good

[opaque bay]

i'm 2/4 with missing pieces being duke and whisp

[hollow cobalt]

could be 3/4 with any given missing piece

[opaque bay]

but i havent even started duke and i'll need magus anyway so chances are i'll get 3/4 there

[hollow cobalt]

and the answer is still "pot tob"

[frail sonnet]

Also how can anyone look at SRA see how its clunky as shit, drains your hp and still want to bring it? Even if I had one, that shit stays binned

[viscid lark]

the hp draining is a non-issue at most places

[frail sonnet]

Im Talking specifically tob

[viscid lark]

yeah at tob the scale up time is an issue at bloat

you take axe with blade/whip/nhally

axe is stlil really nice to have at verzik though

[frail sonnet]

And fang

[viscid lark]

where are you fanging

[frail sonnet]

Sote

[viscid lark]

you axe sote

[viscid lark]

when was that updated

the current axe at sote is significantly stronger than axe on release

[frail sonnet]

Are u assuming full oath?

[viscid lark]

it doesnt delete your stacks anymore on tele

dps calc shows even in torva, axe wins on 1 or 2 hammers by about 5%

i guess when you include time to build stacks fang is probably a tiny bit better

but since they're essentially equal idt fang is worth the space

[hollow cobalt]

if they're about the same why would you take the one that's aids to use, burns your hp and is worse on the low spec situation?

[craggy granite]

Aesthetics

[viscid lark]

because its also good at verzik, while fang has no other uses

[frail sonnet]

This means it's only better at verzik. Now you're starting p2 verzik at 49 hp so you're immediately down 1 brew and a supercombat dose. It is barely better than blade at p3 (blade is 9.05 dps; SRA is 9.26). It is the same DPS at p2 verzik; it only really shines on the nylo crabs but even then it's barely better.

"good" is doing a lot of assumptions

[frail sonnet]

I dont see why good at sote and not aids to use = not worth bringing just for sote, but 0.21 DPS better at p3 and extremely aids to use is somehow very worth

[viscid lark]

im getting a 9% difference on p2 in my calc

[frail sonnet]

because ur calc isnt 5.3t

[viscid lark]

ah

ok i guess its not as good at verzik as i thought

[hollow cobalt]

so basically the question is: is it worth grinding out a sra to save like 8-10s per raid if played perfectly

and the answer is no of course not

For the same reason that grinding out a blade at cg wasn't worth it 1000 years ago

[frail sonnet]

btw if u dont brew scb to make up for lost health ur entering verzik with then you immediately nulled your advantage the moment you hit anything while brewed down

[real yacht]

What's our main wep for spindel? Bowfa or hasta

[chilly cove]

Hasta

[north acorn]

should i block greater demons after 2 synapse and claws?

[austere pecan]

yea

[chilly cove]

Get a hasta first, then block

[north acorn]

already farmed my hasta sorry forgot to add that

[lime trellis]

In the prog chart why is the scythe such a late item? After ultor the only item that really helps at tob are claws and tbow. While if you get a scythe pre-tbow wouldn't that help a lot more at cox than a tbow does at tob?

[frozen olive]

This was just talked about a bit if you scroll up, tob can definitely be placed earlier

[lime trellis]

ty for the pointer. i'll scroll up

[full panther]

tob sequencing is a bit neglected on the chart for sure

my gut says the scythe could be where avernic is now

[drowsy ore]

Tobs biggest hurdle is having a group to run with

[frail sonnet]

bowfa but only if ur fine risking some stuff

else its kinda bad

[hollow cobalt]

Yes I think that's the absolute latest it should be

[lime trellis]

That's what i thought seemed more logical. You don't want it earlier than bp+rigour really, and since tob doesn't help with inferno/yama/hydra then it'd make sense to put it just after those melee upgrades where the avernic is now.

[tacit crow]

Master CAs are pretty nice for TOB if you aren't freezing. But you could definitely pitstop for that before tob if you wanted to.

[lime trellis]

That goes for all the raids. It's not tob exclusive. And it's only a slight save on prayer. You already profit ppots/rests from tob just from the supply chests.

[tacit crow]

Tob room times make master CAs more impactful than at other raids IMO.

But I still agree with what your saying. Just saying it's a nice QOL, can get it if you want

[frail sonnet]

if u have to SBS to thrall it seems pretty useful not to have to do awkward stuff like SBS at p2 50ish hp because the one you summoned at 100 ran out

[tacit crow]

Yeah SBS is good counter point too

[frail sonnet]

maiden is also a good example because how are you supposed to SBS while blowpiping once ur thrall at 100 runs out

[lime trellis]

It does not save time. You can still sbs at p2.
And even assuming you don't want to deal with the hassle of sbs'ing mid P2 the loss in time from not having that thrall for half of p2 is miniscule compared to the gain of having a scythe for cox.

[tacit crow]

I'm not arguing what you think I am. I'm saying you could still route tob early and go for master CAs before tob.

[frail sonnet]

idk how to do it outside of reds and im pretty sure no one outside of niche high eff tob communities knows either

[lime trellis]

Fair, I read it as you were trying to argue that the scythe should keep it's current place because of master CAs being convenient. mb

[lime trellis]

Even then it's not that big of a deal to lose thralls on the last part of pre-reds P2. My point is getting master CAs should not be used as a good reason to why the scythe is so late in the progression.

[fossil flame]

lance should be removed to if scy is the new go to imo

[craggy granite]

that's kind of my plan

[tacit crow]

I'm already doing this lol. Skipping lance cause I hate hydra

[fossil flame]

hydra killed me worst grind ive ever done

[craggy granite]

the only question i've got for myself is i'm doing araxxor w/ scythe or scythe after rancour

[fossil flame]

u prob want rancour pre tob

[craggy granite]

probably will do inferno & delve & yama

my main thing is that crush weapons kind of meh at that point, and the best option is what Zammy Hasta?

[fossil flame]

its pretty fast grind in comparison to scy

[craggy granite]

fair enough

[fossil flame]

600 arraxor ntb imo

[craggy granite]

yeah, i'll see where i'm at slayer wise

I think Avernic @ 87 slayer/tent whip

and after that will mix it all together

[candid haven]

I obtained an 'early' scy a while ago. Does lance have any uses while owning scy, or am I done with hydra after leather?

[fossil flame]

only thing i can think of is vorkath cas but u can prob do it without lance

[craggy granite]

having scythe for Hydra sounds much more fun too

than fang

[candid haven]

Yeah for sure, it'll be nice for araxxor too

[candid haven]

noted thanks 👍

[tacit crow]

yeah all but GM time for vork are reasonable without lance. Could prob save GM time for when you get DHCB and then play the ruby simulator for a bit.

Fang GM time could also work, but seems worse to go with how fang works.

[fossil flame]

dhcb would be pretty good to for vork ive heard ppl doing bgs scy strats as well for it

esp with oathplate

[tacit crow]

I had no idea scythe went so hard at hydra.

This is with no defensive reduction.

It is comparable to tbow DPS with 1 average BGS hit too.

holy crap with max BGS you do leagues esque DPS lmao. 16 DPS.

Am I missing something here?

I dont think hydra has a defence reduction cap

[quiet schooner]

Nah I think that looks right

[robust roost]

why we talking about removing lance? is lance still not worth to open the bis 99 prayer method?

[candid haven]

the discussion is in regard to owning scy, which beats lance at places such as the bis 99 prayer method

[robust roost]

what the heck scythe is better than lance against green dragons

weird game

fun fact actually

if you were to finish tob before toa/cox

scy oath is really good at wardens

[candid haven]

that is a fun fact for where im progressed actually - no fang, but I do have scy and some oath and am working on the rest of the armour atm. I'll look into that, had scy use toa completely written off

[robust roost]

friend of mine who is like half-finished toa and cox was looking at eye dps at warden

and i remembered warden doesn't really have any specific style weakness other than slightly less crush def

so i was curious how scythe would be there with no tbow/shadow

turns out with oath it's better than everything unless you have max range including vambs and miss 0 bp ticks

eye might be close, have to check on gearscape because wiki doesn't apply confliction passive

but that also assumes gear you won't have if you're just starting raids prog anyway

slightly better if you have magus and 2+ anc pieces otherwise slightly worse

[craggy granite]

is that a bowfa skip /s

[robust roost]

it’s a slayer skip

use bowfa to get bp, get eye, revert enh to make blade and tob till scythe

[craggy granite]

tbf depending on where i'm at w/ slayer i might do that

given my level once i'm done with zenytes & gwd & synapse

mostly because that gap doesn't use bowfa outside of quiver & inferno

[robust roost]

im not sure how trolling it is to tob before rigour

but like

honestly it's probably just a 1 max hit difference on bp

considering how insistent some people are on doing tob without the bp at all

i'll take a deadeye gamer any day

[frail sonnet]

modmailable in WDR altho its not like anyone will notice in a run

I agree on ur take tho that better shitty bp over ppl whipping maiden and xarp

[robust roost]

yeah it's a weird thing to modmail

cause you're allowed to use rune darts iirc, unless you're the ranger

and amethyst + rigour is identical dps to dragon + deadeye

and you'll have a decent chunk of ddarts probably after doom grind

[frail sonnet]

yeah its a bit weird how u 90 str torture is allowed but 99 str fury is modmailable

shouldve been a max hit req not whatever that is

[robust roost]

ye they kinda just have to set static reqs because it's hard to enforce max hit thresholds

like "31 bp max" okay cool but how do i know what his max is

without going out of my way to plugin his worn gear and then put it into a calc

when i could just spend that time potting

[indigo hollow]

I put up a fork of the wiki calc with confliction gauntlets implemented here: https://dps.oriontools.dev

[robust roost]

forks are cool

[tacit crow]

You'll most definitely bring through any and all dragon darts you have if you use them during a scythe grind.

[hollow cobalt]

Yeah i don't think anyone is using those for money tobs

[tacit crow]

With that being said. I know amethyst doesn't gain any maxes from max treads. So there's a chance deadeye + max treads get you to 31

Just checked and it's a 30 max hit.

[robust roost]

max treads are only something you get if you're completionist grinding anyway

pegs are awful to grind for

in any case though, i think if you're the type of person who has the ability to do early tob, you'd probably use your ddarts for infernal cape first

at least i would, i'd much rather get infernal before doing the multi-hundred hour melee raid grind

[fossil flame]

tbh i forgot about prayer but thats also pretty minor imo and i guess not an issue either apparently

[robust roost]

no but like

scy is better than lance against those anyway

assuming 3 item with parched untradeables

[radiant pelican]

Is scythe a crazy long grind?

[frozen olive]

About the same as shadow? Assuming trios

[tacit crow]

Yeah similar to shadows. Ball Park 150-200 hours to go on rate running trios.

Go for the higher end or lower end of that depending on your skill/teammates

[dusky fog]

I second this. It’s extremely convenient for those of us who work and can’t be checking phone too often

[robust roost]

tob has a significantly higher level of lenience when it comes to contribution than the other two

in terms of getting uniques

even if you go with people who are in max-ish gear, your rate of uniques isn't significantly lower, and you do short-ish trios in far less time than it takes you to do solo toa at a raid level where you're getting similar rates

assuming you never die, but you literally never mvp a single room in your life ever, chance of picking up a scythe in a trio is 1/653

[robust matrix]

whats the estimated hours to hit scythe drop rate?

[robust roost]

probably around 170-220 hours, assuming 20 minute trios (including time to pot etc)

less if you're actually getting above avg mvp rate

more if you're bad and die a lot

[robust matrix]

you'd be whipping the thing right? i would imagine in a trio you would hurt the times a decent chunk

[frozen olive]

You'd pipe a lot, whip verzik and bloat

[robust roost]

tent/nox for the things you melee, bp for maiden xarpus

fang for sote ideally

[robust matrix]

bloat would always be three down too right?

[robust roost]

not always, but in a trio with a whip it'd be pretty common

[frozen olive]

You'd still ideally run with scythers even if you never mvp

[robust roost]

^^ a run that ends quickly and consistently is going to get you drops faster than trying to snipe people and having slower runs will

for context the total amount of contribution points each person gets is 18, and mvp is worth 1-2 points per room, with the total amount given being 14

so even if the same person mvps every single room they're not even doubling their base chance

and as long as you don't die, you have minimum 26% chance to get the drop if there is one

in a trio that is

plus, as long as you're in bp void and shooting good ammo, you have a reasonable chance to mvp over scythers in maiden/xarpus which are both 2 point rooms

[robust matrix]

it would be rune darts if its a straight 200 hr grind right?

out of d darts, cant imagine upkeeping the amethyst

[robust roost]

ehhh make rune if you have the bars and mine amethyst during your afk time if you have any

im not sure how worth the time it is to blast furnace rune, but tob does drop a lot of rune ore

[frozen olive]

In current gear ame doesn't get a max, so if you have it using rune is good

[robust roost]

that was true before treads

is it still true?

[robust matrix]

treads + quiver?

[frozen olive]

Unless we're running ring I thought it did pre treads

[robust roost]

i forget tbh

[dusky fog]

Last two days of conversation have been sweaty and I’m all about it. Got me rethinking how I approach my progression… I was mostly following the chart

Thing is, I have zero tob experience

[robust roost]

currently with base treads and quiver, ame isn't a max hit

that remains true with max treads as well

[dusky fog]

How many darts we talking over a 200 hour tob grind? Estimate

[frozen olive]

Honestly I think it's completely realistic once you reach a certain point just to do each raid, I don't think it's ever just a "sit down at this raid for 200+ hours" unless you're wait built diff

[robust roost]

oh fuck if i know lmao

[robust matrix]

its a max hit if ur deadeye gaming a 200 hour tob grind

[robust roost]

ye im calcing with rigour

[frozen olive]

I don't have numbers because I made 100k ame darts and never looked

[robust roost]

because i think if ur gonna grind scythe you should get rigour first

[dusky fog]

They’re like slightly to attention requiring to do at work for me

[robust roost]

there's like preliminary items from every raid i would get before you ever commit to the mega from one of htem

scrolls, lb+fang, avernic

(although avernic is ridiculously minor)

[frozen olive]

All the slayer jewelry, infernal/quiver

[robust roost]

i think you can reasonably put off quiver for a fairly long time, but that depends on if you're actually learning it or not

at least pre-tbow it's also a fairly minor upgrade, for the amount of time and supplies you might spend doing the colosseum

[frozen olive]

I think it's pretty good for a guaranteed upgrade
And the skills from inferno parallel decently

[dusky fog]

How long to learn and get quiver you think?

[robust roost]

suppose it varies between people, a lot of my clannies who have inferno struggled a lot more with colo

[frozen olive]

I think with boots it's currently a bowfa max too?

[frozen olive]

Uhh I mean it's gonna vary so much between ppl, took me longer than it should have, I was at like 30-40 deaths when I got first? ~100 when I imbued

[dusky fog]

Is that the base boot or the peg treads?

[frozen olive]

I always calc with max cuz that's what I have might be diff mb

[dusky fog]

Inferno id say average person learning probably is the 10-20 deaths range?

But colo runs are much quicker aren’t they?

[frozen olive]

Yes

Solves need to be much quicker/cleaner and are more punishing as well

[robust roost]

colo is much faster, but it has an actual death cost and is also much easier to kinda just fall over

[dusky fog]

Worth practicing on the main then? To avoid the death coffee drainage

[frozen olive]

No

[robust roost]

uh imo yes

[frozen olive]

You should have plenty of dupes

[dusky fog]

I got 65m in my coffer

[robust roost]

well it can save other things too

runes, ammo, bf charges, brews/restores

[frozen olive]

That's more than enough

Remember deaths are free for first 100(?) waves

[robust roost]

i think if ever you have a main to practice things like cape upgrades, awakened bosses, yama contracts and such, you should use it

[dusky fog]

I mean it wouldn’t hurt

Can get the upgrade on the main too

While at it

[frozen olive]

Sure if you want

[robust roost]

the only argument against it is "what if you have that one run where you actually kill it but you're not on your iron"

but my counter to that is, if you did it once you can do it again, and much easier now that you've gone through the learning phase

[frozen olive]

Granted you can have some really clean south spawns and then not get that again for a while but I don't think it's big either way

[robust matrix]

honestly you can get gifted some pretty easy colo runs

[frozen olive]

The awakened/contracts I agree on because that shit is far more gated

[robust matrix]

if u never get double south spawn its bsasically a free walk to sol

[dusky fog]

Both of you guys both knowledgeable, what would you do in my circumstances with what I got ( with regards to getting scythe, quiver)

[robust roost]

yeahhh colo is weird, ideally you learn how to flick double south and deal with it, but some runs you simply don't have to, and depending on how your runs look you might just get the first kc without ever successfully surviving a double south (like most of my friends lmao)

[frozen olive]

Pillar rotations

[robust roost]

the almighty diagonal pillar run any time something remotely scary happens

or any time there's a stack

[frozen olive]

Tob for justi and brute force

[robust roost]

i would do slayer until you've at least finished off araxxor

[dusky fog]

is this the book it to south pillar infernal equivalent

[robust roost]

rancour is insanely huge for tob

pmuch

oh actually

go get fucking oathplate

[dusky fog]

so rancour and hally?

[robust roost]

lol

[dusky fog]

and yama

[frozen olive]

I like that whole chart up to Yama too

Skip the boots if you want

[robust roost]

rancour and yama, in that order

if you get a cerb task in the meanwhile do that

[dusky fog]

kind of not looking forward to toa for fang

the raid gets old

[robust matrix]

its so nice with new monkey room and ayak

[robust roost]

yeah fuck toa

unfortunate everything it drops is op as shit

[frozen olive]

I think pushing invo super hard is really good, but a lot of ppl like chillers more

[dusky fog]

I have yet to try the eye at toa

[robust matrix]

if ur going for just fang u dont have to push, u do 345s at like 27-28 mins

[dusky fog]

maybe thatll be a bit exciting

[robust matrix]

the only slog part is insanity warden which still feels so long

[frozen olive]

At least it's rythmic

[robust roost]

iirc you need like...near max mage for eye to beat bowfa p3

[robust matrix]

ayak slays akkha and makes 3 downs not bad, good for monkey room too

[frozen olive]

I guess the nice thing about eye is that it's matched with insanity speed

[dusky fog]

so slayer --> rancour (maybe some other things in between through slayer)-> oathplate->fang-->cox (rigour)--> Tob?

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/>_rancour_(maybe_some_other_things_in_between_through_slayer)->_oathplate->fang

[robust roost]

ive also heard bowfa is still better at akkha purely for butterfly

because it's apparently better against shadows

[frozen olive]

Oh I also like ultor with nox

[robust roost]

yeah like do yama when you feel like it and do slayer when you don't

would be a good way forward

try to skip for araxytes/hellhounds/hydra if you're high enough level

[dusky fog]

85 slay atm

[robust roost]

oh yeah wtf get to work then

lol

[frozen olive]

[dusky fog]

I really followd the "get good gear before diving into slayer" advice

[robust roost]

you barely have a melee weapon yet xd

[dusky fog]

catch me out here with this hasta

[frozen olive]

We're still at the get elite CAs phase with obi

[robust roost]

i think good gear before slayer is a bit backwards

[frozen olive]

And he's stalling

[robust roost]

because good slayer gear comes from slayer

tbh "good slayer gear" is just whatever helps you kill tds faster

like there's any other task

[frozen olive]

Bro did kbd and logged

Wwd

[dusky fog]

AND

Sarachnis 😄

7kc cudgel

tyvm

[robust roost]

actually elite CA's cut the heart grind by 25%

if you ever want to think about that

kinda big deal

[dusky fog]

so wait a minute

is the take away here

that the chart is actually kinda accurate?

[frozen olive]

It's accurate until avernic

[robust roost]

well, considering that it has input from the guys who make the current meta guides

it's usually pretty accurate ye

there's just some things near the end that could be swapped around

like tob being way earlier

[dusky fog]

i guess between now and tob, from what I dont have, what can I skip?

[frozen olive]

You basically just hit the point you can do everything based on mood

[chilly ruin]

i think where the line is on assumed skill and perceived difficulty is where things start to fall apart

[robust roost]

you can skip cerb, although i would still do the task if i got it personally, the boots are very minor and rangers esp are a very long commitment for +1 range str

[dusky fog]

Alright, I guess ill generally try to finish off the 3rd row then

ya someone said ranger boots 20 hour grind

[robust roost]

yeah like both quiver and infernal cape can be way earlier than they are, if you're good at the content already

[dusky fog]

true, i mean the only other thing that couldve technically helped me with inferno wouldve been rigour

[robust roost]

im fairly positive that hydra is worth waiting until after tbow which is worth waiting until after scythe

if we're trying to go 100% accurate max eff

[dusky fog]

does the impact the 99 prayer grind?

for the green drags

[robust roost]

no scy is better than lance there

lmao

[chilly ruin]

that sounds like a big departure

[chilly ruin]

even for feros?

[robust roost]

shadow used to be super important to get before starting a cox grind

[dusky fog]

but eye

[robust roost]

feros are like 2 str and some small acc number over bgloves iirc

ye eye is basically equivalent to shadow until you have actual mage gear

and the actual mage gear comes from cox so like

wwd

[frozen olive]

I mean I also think ppl overestimate how much skill/learning is needed for a lot of content, which is what a lot of push back from less experienced players is from.
I put off a lot of content cuz I didn't think I was ready, but in hindsight I was more than prepared.

[dusky fog]

Im rocking bloodbark

is it that until ances?

[robust roost]

i was scared shitless to pot perf tob

and i did it in under 2 hours today

with a uim rocking blade void

just believe in yourself

[chilly ruin]

depends where youre shadowing but heart can be bigger boost than ancestral

[dusky fog]

so when you think best to route in the 99 prayer grind

[robust roost]

whenever you feel like

[frozen olive]

I mean it's entirely dependent on Hydra right

[chilly ruin]

obv irrelevant in raids

[frozen olive]

Claw is 3.2m prayer

[robust roost]

it genuinely doesn't matter, get it whenever you want it

i think i banked over a million prayer xp going dry for treads lol

[frozen olive]

You're most likely getting it from pvm related stuff and slayer

I don't think wildy greens should even be in the works unless you're a giga skiller

[robust roost]

yeah i would never go out of the way for prayer xp unless it's your last 99 to max

[dusky fog]

I banked 1200 sunkissed from doom greenlog. No clue how much prayer exp that is

[robust roost]

same with any buyable

[dusky fog]

fair enough

[robust roost]

probably around 350k? i have 4.4k and that's about 1.2m xp according to banked xp plugin

[dusky fog]

I still got a lot of work to do here so not gonna get ahead of myself. Elites and slayer gonna be a bit

genuinely excited to learn TOB one day though

[robust roost]

yeah i would get elite CA's asap if it's within reach, otherwise do yama and some nerfed slayer

[dusky fog]

350 points off elite

[robust roost]

you're kinda locked out of tob and cox until you get at least a tent whip lol

[dusky fog]

350 yama kc no oath plate 🙂

[robust roost]

happens, im at 801 with only 1 piece lol

[dusky fog]

from what I have left, Id maybe want prims to add to treads and occult before yama

think I was 5 way switching for the 20% magic att bonus for yama

[robust roost]

you could see if the 1 strength bonus gives you a max hit

ideally when you're doing yama you don't ever actually attack void flares

(unless you're soloing, but solo is not advisable)

[dusky fog]

I did duo meele

so, what eneded up being the meta style for yama

there was donofly, and another fly i forget the names

[frozen olive]

we godfly these days

gotta get that contract prep in

[robust roost]

exactly that, you duo melee, you do some variation of donofly which there's apparently like fucking 5 idk, and preferably yama dies before the flares explode but if dps is terrible one of the two ppl can ping off the flares and re-enter the cycle with their partner

[dusky fog]

Gonna be easy to find teammate for that method?

[frozen olive]

you do it yourself

it doesn't mess with them

tell your duo you'll "let them" do voidflares for extra contribution too

[dusky fog]

that sounds familiar good stuff

[robust roost]

i need to learn contract method

i have an oath acq contract xd

[frozen olive]

gl lmfao

[dusky fog]

is helm worth sticking around for?

[robust roost]

yes

[dusky fog]

I mean I see they took the faceguard off the chart

[frozen olive]

realistically you'll be able to make the last piece anyway

so

[robust roost]

ye because oath helm is way easier to get

[dusky fog]

think I had like half the shards to make a piece

[robust roost]

in an ideal world, you get 2 dif pieces as drops and then make the last one with shale/oath shards

[frozen olive]

unless you get 2 pieces early that's gonna be the case a lot of the time

[dusky fog]

did they can the yama channel or im blind

[robust roost]

we had a yama channel?

[dusky fog]

or thread>? i guess

[frozen olive]

its archived

or w.e

https://discord.com/channels/166812746510368768/1368632190723821729

[dusky fog]

may it rest in peace

[craggy granite]

How long for ferocious gloves?

[robust roost]

not sure, i have no clue what kill times look like with bowfa/bp

however they're almost twice as common as i thought they were lol

i thought hydra leather was only 1/800, apparently it's 1/512

[frozen olive]

you'd fang/hasta over those, bp better dps but upkeep is rough

[robust roost]

huh really? last time i calced bp was only like 2-3% better than bowfa, i think the ammo was ame

[frozen olive]

rigour bowfa is slightly better, its gonna be gear dependent, but per chart you won't have it

[robust roost]

eh yeah deadeye bp is like 5% better than bowfa

assuming you don't have any random masori

[frozen olive]

sorry hasta is worse, you'd use it if you still need melee xp, fang is better than the above, assuming deadeye

[robust roost]

okay im starting to see the vision

fang also loses less ticks moving vents

[frozen olive]

yeah its a very chill drag

[robust roost]

cause i think you have to lose a tick or 2 to pull it

with hasta at least

[chilly ruin]

fang hydra is pretty comfy

[robust roost]

i had tbow before 95 slayer so idk any of this shit

god favors r word

as my buddy says

[chilly ruin]

yea ok i see why you said wait for tbow for hydra then lol

but that is kinda crazy otherwise

imo

[frozen olive]

bro walked in with 13 dps fr

[chilly ruin]

hydra was also a big chunk of cash for me (nice at the end of slayer)

[robust roost]

it was eagle eye tbow ngl

i wanted to get rigour for cg for the rest of the game

apparently forgot the ordering

pulled tbow with 19k pts in a 4man using tent bp

did all of my hydra with eagle eye and then a lot of lance+eagle eye tbow toa (because most of this appened before toa came out)

[craggy granite]

I think after Tent Whip/Fang + Eye I'd probably run CoX with a team for Rigour & Augury either way

[robust roost]

i dont like that slash

[craggy granite]

sure, but you're mostly on mage hand if you have eye in a team

[robust roost]

you should be on both hands an equal amount if your group isn't trolling

[craggy granite]

melee hand has best contrib iirc

I'd probably dps check that i guess

[robust roost]

if that's true, that also means it's crippling instantly which means whoever is hitting it has to waste ticks switching back and forth

[craggy granite]

3+2?

[robust roost]

even in a 3+4 it cripples sometimes

not often, but can happen

plus runners should be bgsing it which will likely cause it to cripple anyways

[craggy granite]

convincing myself that 3+12 or w/e it is is the play

[robust roost]

and like

if it's 0 def, your fang is doing about as much dps as a d scim would be

[craggy granite]

would tent whip not be good enough?

[robust roost]

no it is

you said whip/fang which made me think you meant either or

implying you were gonna do cox with just a fang lol

[craggy granite]

Fang for Tekton iirc

iirc there are a few other rooms?

[robust roost]

fang for vangs and vasa crystal pre-lance

tekton tent whip is better if you can get it to 0/low def

[craggy granite]

Yeah, otherwise I imagine it'd largely be bowfa

bowfa BGS + eye

whip would be for melee hand, idr if bp or bowfa would be better for head

[robust roost]

most rooms you bp, bowfa is for if you need the range or vs mystics

like shamans/vesp/vasa/mystics bowfa

muttas/rope/mage vang bp is better

[craggy granite]

gotcha

olm head?

[robust roost]

bowfa

[craggy granite]

👍

but yeah, I'd probably do cox prayers & avernic around that point

[robust roost]

granted the last time ive done most of these calcs was pre treads and also with ddarts & rigour

worse gear and darts makes the gap smaller

[craggy granite]

I get that looking for a team puts some people off

[robust roost]

with the assumed gear going into cox, bowfa is actually better against the mage vang

[craggy granite]

that's still so much shorter than a lot of grinds

[robust roost]

and very close vs mamadile

[craggy granite]

you assuming quiver or nah

I'd assume Quiver

[robust roost]

quiver is like

[craggy granite]

Inferno took me so long, but that was also learning how ticks work

[robust roost]

15-20 minutes and then you die to a double south and move on

inferno is an hour of slogging through shit waves trying to flick to preserve supplies

and then you make a mistake and lose a brew or get bent over

[craggy granite]

I had no clue how npc target until inferno

[robust roost]

or you die on zuk after a 2-3 hour run

and you fucking hate your life

to this day ive never died to triples ngl

[craggy granite]

I started the Iron around the time Varlamore came out

[robust roost]

i died once to single jad my first time there from lack of supplies xd

[craggy granite]

so I never actually touched Quiver

[robust roost]

but triples never makes me nervous

zuk sure does

[craggy granite]

btw vs muspah what’d be the step back method for a 4t weapon, do i step back 2 tiles instead?

Then I’m on a 5t attack cycle at some point

[robust roost]

on the attack where you would have to delay to force a 5t, you instead run back a tick early and go 2 tiles instead of 1

i think

[craggy granite]

Yeah, that gets Muspah as 6t instead of 5t, right?

And that should sync up

[robust roost]

for that attack yeah

[craggy granite]

Cool

[robust roost]

i think im remembering that right lol

[craggy granite]

Yeah, that’d be good in the Muspah notes
Haven’t touched delve yet

No synapse so far

Im like immediately post-bowfa

I’m just getting ancient icon

Yeah, I’m not grinding it out for Venator rn

[robust roost]

venator isn't that useful until you actually start grinding for specifically heart

and only for specifically araxytes

[craggy granite]

I’m just doing this pre-gwd, so when I get 94 magic I’ll go gwd & quiver & inferno

[robust roost]

eh kinda? i did all my earlier kcs atlatling the ranger

although tbf

i did melee only for my first 9 ish kc

[craggy granite]

I’m going to just do ancients for first kc

[robust roost]

big mistake

[craggy granite]

Before sgs

[robust roost]

yeah i didn't have sgs either

i was vw'ing the melee frem lol

to save inv space

[craggy granite]

I mean, the game is built around most average gamers who are willing to learn content imo

Most things aren’t super difficult

[robust roost]

i was with the crowd who potted quiver from day 1

so i wasted a very large quantity of runes

thinking shadow was good

because thats what woox was doing lmao

it's like

acceptable if you dont have a tbow

it's okay for waves, comparable to bowfa, maybe slightly better even

but my god it's expensive

[craggy granite]

bgs or dwh

[robust roost]

for colo?

dwh

[craggy granite]

Yeah

I don’t have either yet, but got spooned bclaws

I think I’d want at least one

[robust roost]

throwing 1 hammer cuts the ttk quite substantially

if it lands ofc

[craggy granite]

So dwh + 94 magic and then more or less good to start sending it

[robust roost]

i'd probably still try to get an sgs first even if you are freezing the frems

actually

it's interesting to me that ACB is nowhere on the chart

but zcb is

i dont think you should be doing nex without an acb

but then the question remains when do you actually go and get it

[inland cosmos]

I assume at the same time going for zcb?

[robust roost]

i would think right after masori

because if you're going to get it at all, you should get it before you grind levi

[frozen olive]

wherever you pipe/scobo

[robust roost]

well, when you have full masori, bp tends to shit on bowfa

unless the range is relevant or the target has very high def

also shadow replaces bowfa for most bowfa things

and if you have full masori, the assumption is that you likely have shadow already

however, if you get full masori on the way to shadow, i believe you'd drop the bowfa completely and bp everything instead in masori

[frozen olive]

this seems like a more of an argument for hammer, so you aren't trying to get in dps specs while dodging everything lol

I always forget which spear happened after special loll

[robust roost]

if you were to take hammer + bclaws, you'd still have 2 specs for enrage anyway, plus you get them on reduced def

possibly 3 if you have a very slow sol

[craggy granite]

i'd do that diagonal L or w/e it is by default, doesn't that cover both?

[robust roost]

corner L covers everything except shield 1

something i only heard about recently actually

[sleek prawn]

@robust roost @frozen olive
What PVM order do you guys think i should be doing? im a little confused atm ngl 😄 I also have craws bow if that makes any diff for the wildy tiles

[robust roost]

make zenytes

or at the very least make anguish

and send some doom

[sleek prawn]

i got one zenyte stoed in bank. So get anguish asap and send doom without rigour?

[robust roost]

that or send toa for lb first

[hybrid blaze]

Id make torture with the first and aim to get a second

[sleek prawn]

can probably send doom + slayer side by side

[sleek prawn]

fk toa, just sending without lb

[robust roost]

i hate toa too but

loot is op

[sleek prawn]

yeah true

but would probably be nice to have some zenyte jews before toa too

do i always go until death at doom or go until im not confident anymore?

i dont have a lot of brews / restores

[craggy granite]

iirc toa is prayer pot positive

so you can probably bounce between the two

[craggy granite]

ty for confirming that btw, I just got the perfect muspah ca there

made it a lot easier and dps was much better

i'll probably go for the walking ca later

and then the spikes one

[robust roost]

would go until you feel a high likelihood of dying next wave based on supplies remaining

like any time i had less than 115 hp worth of health+brew left id claim

i didn’t actually need any of the loot though so you can be safer if there’s things you need

dart tips, cannonballs, key halves, splinters

[sleek prawn]

oh okay true! thanks

so after doom its just slayer until occult + rancour or?

and then send yama into tob?

[polar void]

Yeah oathplate is great for tob+vard but you can totally start sending tob without it, oath in particular will make vard a joke

Scythe + avernic hilt are very strong upgrades vs vard as well so, doing both tob and vard at the same time progression wise offers upgrades for both pieces of content, making them pretty complimentary id say

[hollow cobalt]

Whip trios were basically 50/50 to get the 2 down when I did them years ago. Gear has gotten a fair bit better since then though

[robust roost]

a lot of damage at bloat tends to be missed by people not knowing the hit procedure, or not being willing to tank stomps

if everyone does chally 5 chally first down i wouldn't be surprised if whip 2ds were pretty common

[bold latch]

Speaking of TOB, what's the best way to find teams to learn with? And then after that, how do you find teams that are FFA since I don't have a main to split loot with?

[frozen olive]

Friends>clannies>Wdr>>>416
I've also heard aaty has a decent learner discord

[worthy scaffold]

i used a hard carry discord when i learned tob

think its called "learn tob"

[frail sonnet]

learn tob discord

you wont get many clears if youre not with a mentor but the goal is just to get passable skills and escape to anywhere else

[bold latch]

No osrs friends unfortunately but I'll ask around in my clan and check out that learn tob discord then, tyty!

[viscid lark]

its also good to send a few entries first to make sure you at least know the basics

can just do those solo

[inner forge]

Especially for learning how to do Verzik p2 without getting bounced. Getting bounced multiple times in a normal run is a quick way to lose the run

[robust roost]

there’s like

3 big learner brick walls imo

two of them are verzik, 1 of them is the p2 walk

[full panther]

making the adjustments that's been discussed here lately with moving the scythe up, and collapsing the sequencing of dc2 and avernic treads in them being just about invariant of eachother (beyond extreme minmax). any other concerns to also address while im making changes?

i forget why venator ring is on here, and i am thinking of removing that too if pegs are not even on there

[fringe condor]

Maybe do hallowed sack icon instead of hallowed tp crystal?

[full panther]

it was considered, but that risks implying that all sep rewards are spent on sacks. could be an unfounded concern of mine so im eager to hear what other thinks as well

[fringe condor]

Hmm I can see how it could be interpreted that way but that’s still stupid to not buy the main rewards first 😆

[frozen olive]

We have plenty of ppl argue for sacks over TPS in discussion so that's not a crazy assumption at all

[fringe condor]

Solution would be to make boxes before with the sepulchre items then sacks in a group after but that may just be unnecessary clutter

[full panther]

afaik its not problematic to buy some. doing sep to 98 gives a looot of marks, so having both could be fine if some clutter is tolerated

the tp having single-responsibility in communicating "unlock sep" i think is fine though

[tacit crow]

Is it indicated anywhere that you need to be using rune or amethyst darts in your Blowpipe if you are using it?

I know a lot of noobs fall into trap of using addy darts

[full panther]

hmm, the chart has never attempted this

regarding dart usage in bp, its mostly: default to rune, use amethyst if u afked at work, save dragon darts for ca's (and the content u hate the most)?

[frozen olive]

It's a good point tbf

[full panther]

yep not unreasonable to try to tackle

[frozen olive]

Yeah, and in a lot of setups ame isn't a max

[full panther]

for my purposes, it feels like i've somehow just been sustaining ddarts everywhere

[frozen olive]

Granted if you've religiously followed this you won't be having a ton of rune banked

[tacit crow]

I think the first biggest place you use blowpipe a ton here is for scythe grind. I think you should sustain rune at tob.

[full panther]

one of the more simple ways to address this is to simply put the darts in with bp. theyre not "unlocks" in that sense though, but there is near zero benefit to someone mistakenly thinking they're not unlocked until this point, except confusion with da4

[hollow cobalt]

nah that is silly

[full panther]

doesn't look very pretty

[tacit crow]

Yeah looks silly

[full panther]

ok, idea binned

not moving forward with this

[tacit crow]

Icon box when hovering over blowpipe? Or add to FAQ?

[full panther]

hows this for a faq entry?

What darts should i use with my blowpipe?
Rune darts, amethyst if available. Dragon for combat achievements, and elsewhere at ones own preference. Do not use adamant or lower for anything else than tagging for barrage.

though only 1-2% of page visits are to the faq page, so its not likely to be seen by most tbf

i think this might be approaching the limits of what the chart can do with avoiding some scope-creep. (e.g. explanation page for item, etc.)

[fossil flame]

just my take feel like this is a pretty fair way to go about it. I dont think u need lance but removing it and making someone to commit to tob primiarly as their first raid I think is a bit much so I think this is a good middleground

[real yacht]

So as of right now Scy is the highest prio mega?

[hollow cobalt]

no

but tob doesn't really rely on other gear very much

[polar void]

It's prob the best mega to get first only because the other megas aren't useful for tob

[real yacht]

That makes sense and I saw people talking about Scy being useful at wardens with full oathplate which is hilarious

[fossil flame]

scy at chambers is mainly why its so good imo

u also get scy for duke which is a notable bonus in this prog

[real yacht]

Yeah i could see it.

Scy + shadow has to be insanely fast cox times which makes sense cause tbow is such a horrendous grind on avg

But I cant send Solo tobs all willy nilly so I guess Tob when I can sess and toa when I need 1 off content

[hollow cobalt]

bow just aint that bad tbh, it's slightly longer than the other megas but not by much

[real yacht]

I personally look at it as worse but there are 2 other items on its drop rate whereas the other 2 nothing is as rare but probably means nothing in the world of raw stats

[fossil flame]

ye i get what u mean i hate the idea of rolling mrare then getting trolled but its accounted for

[hollow cobalt]

that is completely nonsensical

[flint pebble]

Kodai and pure essence both have the same chance of being a tbow (it’s 0%)

[dusky fog]

is there a certain number of tent whips to target getting before scythe grind?

[polar void]

Good point

[polar void]

Turn your bowfa into a saeldor before committing

[frozen olive]

Well you only need one tent, if you mean whips you should get enough by 93 slayer, and you'll be higher than that by the time you get rancor

[polar void]

Side note, I kind of wish I didn't corrupt my bowfa

[real yacht]

Why's that

Cause you cant revert?

[chilly cove]

did you get spooned a tbow or smth?

[robust roost]

might have something to do with how we were talking about doing tob until scythe before cox

where blade is good and bowfa is trolling

[woven nova]

What

[hollow cobalt]

Blade is "good" but whip is also good enough

[craggy granite]

fwiw doing 2t teaks at priff instead of 1.5t to 90 wc covers the shards

on top of the shard changes giving so many shards in general

from cg

with the infusion mechanic, no need to corrupt bowfa right away

[hybrid blaze]

Why add sacks at all when the teleports are better?

Maybe try an icon that explains that the goal is to stay at sep until 98 agility. Perhaps put the number on there

[hybrid blaze]

Wait seriously? I thought this was only said as a joke, and people don't actually think addy is an option

[hybrid blaze]

Fwiw goading pots are a far superior option for tagging. I'd consider removing that last part.

[hybrid blaze]

Back in the day I thought we said its around 15 whips to rapier droprate, after which you don't use them anymore. There is also a grungo tent+regular approach which has decent enough dps nrs but may get you kicked from teams

[dusky fog]

What is grungo tent

[hybrid blaze]

Grungo here means cheap bastard. I'm saying to carry both tent and regular and decide which to use where to save charges

On paper its fine but afaik it's considered an insult to the team

[dusky fog]

ohh lol

[frozen olive]

yeah you'd get kicked lol

[dusky fog]

whats ur thoughts on the reverting bowfa ideo

[frozen olive]

problem is you'd need for cox and toa

[hybrid blaze]

I think it's fine, bowfa sucks at tob and shards aren't that expensive

[full panther]

Ok thanks

[real yacht]

What an interesting turn of events that reverting bowfa might be a play for tob rush

[hybrid blaze]

This has been a method since the week after bowfa release 😅

It's the best reason not to get saeldor: reverting is just better

[thick spoke]

if you're considering bringing both tent and reg whip to save charges just leave the tent in the bank

[drowsy ore]

Just wear blue leagues whip so people can’t see the difference

Also nox is surely better than tent at that slayer rate

Getting 15 whips or 1 nox

[sleek prawn]

at what point of the game would revert bowfa into blade? i assume its whenever you feel like going all in on tob, but its just difficult to have teams 24/7 i imagine, so wouldnt we need it somewhere else at the same time

[craggy granite]

after rigour imo, I'd want rigour for better blowpipe dps

lightbearer + fang from toa, rigour from cox, inferno + quiver

and zulrah

[sleek prawn]

What grinds beside TOB do we have left then which we can do without needing bowfa?

i guess yama?

[craggy granite]

it's vard + yama + tob at that point

[drowsy ore]

Nex and imbued heart

[sleek prawn]

yeah true

nex already? without tbow?

[craggy granite]

i think acb + fang is enough?

[drowsy ore]

You said what else doesn’t need bowfa

On the chart after scythe it’s toa cox nex and heart

[thick spoke]

duke

[sleek prawn]

yeah duke with scythe will be cool

[craggy granite]

basically bowfa isn't needed for like 200 hrs of content after rigour

[thick spoke]

I would only revert if I knew I was going to do melee content only, if I'm planning on doing any toa/cox I would keep bowfa

[sleek prawn]

yeah thats kinda my idea aswell

I usually dont stick to grinds like tob enough that i wanna revert bowfa i think

[thick spoke]

saeldor for tob is not as big as bowfa is for those since you can just use either of the whips or nox hally

[sleek prawn]

inferno on task will also be elimated on the way to 95 slayer if i revert

[thick spoke]

while bowfa doesn't really have a big replacement

[sleek prawn]

exactly

[craggy granite]

i think that you can front load a lot of inferno + quiver + doom + rigour etc that need bowfa

if eye, blowpipe, fang, rigour, inferno, quiver is done before 91 slayer, then from 91->95+ slayer & yama & vard & tob is blade

which is why that's my route more or less

[brittle ridge]

Small thing, in Bruhsailer the pharaoh sceptre is obtained before CG, is there any reasoning why its after CG in the chart?

[hybrid blaze]

Only temporarily for tob, if that

[full panther]

Thats likely an oversight

[sleek prawn]

Okay fair

[polar void]

No, but I spent 2k crystal shards corrupting it when progression wise I didn't spend nearly that many, meaning that reverting it for a blade will lose me a ton of shards

So it's probably not a good idea, better to just use tent whips prob

[dusky fog]

Don’t need bowfa for doom btw unless misunderstanding what you meant

[craggy granite]

doom -> zulrah was what i was thinking

my bad

and getting eye for a decent enough mage option at toa

[real yacht]

I think its a great idea if u havent corrupted if you have I wouldn't personally revert it. I think its 1 max hit over tent right?