Gear Progression Chart

[quiet schooner]

It's also bis at pnm

Yes u use eye at tob

[fickle drum]

thinking abt it more an actual efficient route could be something like torture > scorching bow > go for anguish > convert scorching bow into emberlight when you run out of shards > go for 2nd scorching bow

[real yacht]

before grinding zulrah im sure its better kph with eye/bowfa

[real yacht]

On the chart where bgs is do you grind the entire sword there or if you spoon hilt are you supposed to move on?

[frozen olive]

graardor and kril are essentially the same boss so you'd do those for blade pieces, if you go dry there then zily

[molten crow]

What are the uses for warped sceptre?

[craggy granite]

Isn’t it for toa basically

[latent oyster]

before bp I used it as an item to take into wildy for the combat elite clues for what that's worth

[dusky fog]

I’ve only used it at toa

[radiant pelican]

Can someone describe zulrah at this point in gear progression? Bowfa/full crystal/anguish/treads/barrows gloves into eye/gauntlets/full bloodbark/occult??? 7 way switches? Hahaha

[hybrid blaze]

I think normally its an 8way, not 7

what am I missing?

oh you forgot cape

[strange nexus]

You have rancour in the progression chart so I think melee would be the play as you would have a nox hally

But im not 100% I haven't done non max gear snek in a while

[radiant pelican]

Oh you're right. Okay I've never done zulrah before so I had no idea it's normally 8 way. Thank you good sir!

[radiant pelican]

So it's tribrid zulrah?

[strange nexus]

Mostly melee

I know staff is really good at zulrah but bowfa is mid compared to hally so im not fully sure on the method if someone else knows more?

[strange nexus]

Zulrah is a memorization boss but once you learn its very chill. I reccomend bowfa only or nox hally with a few switch's untill you learn each rotation.

I found it easier to force learn 1 rotation at a time ( if you dont get the rotation your trying to learn just logout )

And you will spawn back at the dock

[dusky fog]

Zulrah has weird transition delays where you can’t attack right away anyways.. so plenty of time for switches

Took me about 200 kills to memorize the rotations but then again I’m a bit slow

[dusky fog]

This is actually so annoying with bowfa only. Spamming boss until you finally can attack 😂

[somber dagger]

was elite ca after fang before?

how is it to get elite ca without fang?

[chilly cove]

not too difficult tbh. most of the difficulty of getting enough points for early elite ca's come from doing it before you have most slayer bosses unlocked, not from not having access to fang

[craggy granite]

when do you get the private room for gwd? because i assume that's wanted

cause going for hard ca's is going to involve sequencing for that

at least a little

[frozen olive]

I mean it's definitely nice, but it's not needed, esp when learning

[craggy granite]

so just send it to start, learn 6:0 w/o

and eventualy do the thing

got it

i meant

door altar

[hollow cobalt]

Private room doesn't make much difference if you aren't staying for a while

[craggy granite]

which is the same, right?

[frozen olive]

the only diff is juggling at the start and supply management

[craggy granite]

i'll look through what i'd need to do for elite ca's

[tacit crow]

Id recommend using private when you get better though. You miss out on a lot of CAs if you don't.

I got the perfect/no minion damage kill a couple times, but never used the private ones, so I'm still missing that one

X kill trip too

[stone sedge]

Hey everyone, I know ladlors progression guide pulls from a few different sources… but is there a consolidated list of the reasons behind each “step” in the chart?

[somber dagger]

not every step, only some few, you can see them in faq

[austere pecan]

most of the overall reasoning lies in bruhsailer, otherwise not really

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I think I'll probably knock out a chunk of CAs just to get them done

[craggy granite]

currently doing td's
my stats are: 80 atk, 90 str, 82 def, 93 ranged, 91 magic
doing it with bowfa + rcb / demonbane spell punish

notable things

1. exp rates are insane
2. infernal ashes are bankable
3. this task burns through prayer pots

I'm going for a single synapse here to start

[strange nexus]

Hard cas

[craggy granite]

and my goal for sequencing td's first is that I'll have to do fewer overall slayer tasks doing synapse -> dg's than dg's -> td's

which means I'll need fewer "bad tasks" etc

or tasks at least will be done at higher exp rate because i'll have higher stats

I don't want to risk running out of charges by going for 2 synapses, so I'll swap to dg's after the first one, but should have enough for the first synapse

and being able to get all that with fewer tasks seems like it's going to be a bit better

[hybrid blaze]

I hope it works out for you, it's a rough plan

[real yacht]

did eye of ayak make any major changes for toa or is it basically drop trident use eye for p2 and basically nothing else?

[somber dagger]

Not much

[quiet schooner]

Eye is better than bowfa on akkha I think

Depending on ur mage gear can be better at P3 too

[misty thunder]

So theoretically if I were to sneak in 92 mining in this chart, where would a good place be. Before treads for the scobo doom grind?

I already have the fletching

[somber dagger]

after karamja diary

hard

gem mining to 97!

[real yacht]

is there ever a world where we farm venny ring earlier from lev because of 2 max hits on bowfa with max treads + quiver?

or is tbow too important for the long term grind

[somber dagger]

nope

[real yacht]

i figured. 🙁

[somber dagger]

there is a world where you never farm it!

[real yacht]

its on the list!

[drowsy ore]

I don’t think it is anymore

[craggy granite]

I’m looking through zero’s guide there, and I might go through that & ca’s to note what’s available and maybe add that as a companion

[dusky fog]

I’m grinding 92 now before I go back to doom with newly acquired blowpipe

[real yacht]

Unless Mine is not updated for what ever reason its near the venny bow before torva

[unborn night]

@full panther hey bro and all staff that worked on this, i want to say thank you for ur hard work in helping so many people including myself after deironing my zuk helm iron and remaking this guide has been extremely helpful as well as all the support from fellow irons in giving advice to people ❤️ good shit ironscape.

@hybrid blaze and @hollow cobalt same to you kings

[full panther]

thanks for the kind words :)

[unborn night]

All good bro, thanks again

[normal prism]

Whats the reasoning for avernic threads before rite of vile transference?
If you melee yama and already have dboots, avernic threads give no advantage at yama, whereas the double death charge does give a benefit at doom?

[hollow cobalt]

You don't really have anything good to make use of the spec if you're followig the chart

[hollow cobalt]

[normal prism]

surely extra bone claws/chally specs help more at doom than +2 ranged strength and 1% magic dmg help at yama

[hollow cobalt]

You already will have as many chally specs as you can use right?

[frozen olive]

You don't really have spec energy issues, I often end up just sending pipe/scobo specs yeah

[normal prism]

Well yeah, then you get free scobo specs

I mean it's very minor

But it does add dmg, whereas I don't really see how threads add dmg to yama

[hollow cobalt]

What do you mean you don't see how better gear adds damage?

[normal prism]

Its not better than dboots, which is in the prior step, cus you melee yama. Or does the chart assume you dont melee?

[chilly ruin]

they are better than d boots, although not massively

[normal prism]

Okay ye I guess the 5 accuracy bonus exists

[hollow cobalt]

Adds 5 damage per minute which is probably more significant than an extra 3/5 of a scobow spec per minute

But uh it really doesn't matter lol.

[normal prism]

I mean I agree its not big ofc
Just wondering if I was missing something or it would be correct to combine/swap them

Also wondering the logic of putting doom that early, when equally hard content (inferno) is out later because of the difficulty.
Is it that you see doom as easier than inferno?
The upgrades as more important?
Something else?

[opal patrol]

you cant compare them tbh

[normal prism]

What do you mean by that?

[hollow cobalt]

Eye is definitely much more impactful than inferno

[opal patrol]

completely different content, its more about solving waves

hard to say which one is harder, mechanically doom is

[hollow cobalt]

Also the whole time that you spend learning doom is still useful to getting loot

As opposed to inferno where you get literally nothing from the process

[normal prism]

Yeah but can we agree that both are some of the very hardest content in the game?

[opal patrol]

yes of course

but idk how to compare both since they use different skill sets

[normal prism]

Ye that makes some sense.
Only counter I would have is, that drop rate increases a lot as you get good at doom

[normal prism]

I mean okay.
But if you (or ladlor I guess is actually the one who needs to believe it) don’t think inferno is definitely harder, then the reason must be something else

[frozen olive]

Honestly it's sort of an upgraded bowfa grind, difficult for the stage of the account you're at but super impactful

and doable with void and a synapse

[normal prism]

Void + synapse and rune arrows just seem so rough

But I guess it’s only rigour and tbow that help a lot

And that’s a long way to put it off

But why not finish all of doom when you get the threads?
How does the gear in between help you at doom?

Please don’t take my (many) questions the wrong way.
I’m asking to learn more about the game and maybe to improve the chart if possible

[hollow cobalt]

How do the doom drops help you at any of the other grinds in between?

[normal prism]

Fair enough, if that’s the only reason I don’t see why I’d leave doom to go get 3 slayer levels and then come back with no upgrades

[hollow cobalt]

Then dont

[normal prism]

But I guess it shows that you can do those as something on the side while grinding doom

[opal dagger]

Technically you could get prims to slightly help your chally specs

[normal prism]

Come on, I’m not that obtuse.
I realize I have free will, I’m talking from the logic of the chart

[hollow cobalt]

A lot of the time it just doesn't matter

Or the chart is just wrong

[normal prism]

I mean if the chart is wrong, why not improve it?

And if it doesn’t matter wouldn’t optimal charting put it together?
I guess that depends on how ladlor intends people to read the chart, but that’s how I’ve been reading it

[hollow cobalt]

I mean you're welcome to try

[normal prism]

That is what I am doing right now

[full panther]

Early treads confusion was a common one on the latest reddit post

[normal prism]

I’m not confused by the placement as such.
It just seems to contradict the inferno logic, at least in my eyes

And then the splitting of doom as well

[full panther]

How inferno logic exists on the chart is arguing how late it can feasibly be delayed

Same for quiv too

With doom i dont lean that way atm

[normal prism]

Okay that’s a good phrasing.
So you’d say that is how long doom can feasibly be delayed, or you think doom is “easier”

[full panther]

Its hard content deffo but

Like mad as heck said, u can still pull some shit while learning it

[opal dagger]

The difference in the uniques is also a factor imo

[full panther]

Doom is also not just skill gated

[normal prism]

Yeah that’s the feasibly delayed part

[full panther]

It also is a grind in the traditional sense

Not just getting gud

[normal prism]

Okay that makes sense as well

I just feel like you have to get gud to even get to the grind part

Would be my counter

[full panther]

Same with cg, tho a step down

Bruh has a view on doom and yama

Delay until 95 slayer can never be disastrous

A conservative bet like that is also reasonable

[normal prism]

Yeah that’s the alternative I was considering

[full panther]

Reality is none of the doom uniques speed up slayer

Dc2 does (?)

[hollow cobalt]

Does putting doom any later make it easier to learn at all? I don't think so unless you do it post-tbow which is insanity

[normal prism]

I was thinking about it cus I was talking to a mate who is way more skilled than me. And he said I would be in for a rough mental grind if I wanted to do Doom now. But also that he would 100% do it if he had my acc

[opal dagger]

My only guess would be blowpipe but eye is really good at zulrah

[full panther]

Someone did mention for yama that no occult is harsh for the void flares

Was some big discussion about what assumptions are fair for making in group boss

As for doom ye, i dont really believe in elite void and scobo, that any upgrades make it any easier past that

[hollow cobalt]

If you're doing duos the flares basically don't exist

[normal prism]

I mean then you do it post rigour, but it’s like .5 dps

[full panther]

Thats true, and duo is the best way to do em too

[opal dagger]

Duo gives the best dry protection with the lock boxes right?

[normal prism]

I might just do more slayer first, cus it makes me able to do raids with my friends faster, and then I can just do the yama and doom grind when no friends are raiding

[full panther]

Sensible choices to make yea

[normal prism]

Just the bp that would be nice to get for raids tho

But I guess I can leech for a bit

[hollow cobalt]

Torm+ma2 and the scuffed augury hits 72

And ig it's basically a 50/50 to get the gauntlets before treads in which case you can do the 2 way+prayer

[hexed lily]

Is it better to use t bow with crystal armor or elite void at zulrah?

[round knot]

how about you go do some toa

[hexed lily]

Brother no

[hollow cobalt]

!dps

[brisk venture]

For calculating dps in osrs there's currently 2 main ways to get accurate dps comparisons.

Bitterkoekje DPS Sheet
Click File and Make a copy

OSRS Wiki DPS Calculator
You can click the share button top right to get a link to save your loadout or use the wikisync runelite plugin to export your gear to the wiki.

[round knot]

void is for max hit and zulrah has capped max hit at 50 so surely void is really bad with tbow

[hexed lily]

Was only considering void so i can bring melee helm + nally/rancor switch

But looks like crystal armour it is

[tiny belfry]

I can vouch for this. Pre-torm I had to bring a 5/6 way switch, it was ridiculous. It was also a problem on p3 melee duo’s bc you lose a lot of ticks switching, especially when you need to be in sync such as simplefly

With torm, 4 way was fine but when I had occult it was the simplest, very nice QOL.

[frail ibex]

As someone who's only done Mage only P3 in duos. What's the suggested or recommended method for learning melee method in P3?

I know there's Gnomofly, donofly, robofly, randombsfly (idk), but is there a method that's suggested over the others?

[tiny belfry]

I am a huge fan of simplefly/nofly because there is no “full” cycle you need to stay in sync with like donofly which means you can make infinite mistakes and still recover.

Nofly is also more dps then the others and the method also allows you to improvise when you do make a mistake

I recommend watching Red Eye Jedi’s guide, he uploaded a new one yesterday

[loud panther]

I grabbed double DC before torm, you can use void to reach the magic damage threshold. It does slow down your melee dps though

[frail ibex]

Thank you so much for the breakdown. This is really helpful!

[candid meadow]

Anywhere I can find the current chart compared to top post?

[frozen olive]

Pins

[polar void]

You get a good amount of time for gear switches on zulrah

[real yacht]

Is it assumed we use fang at hydra due to the charts direction?

[somber dagger]

Yes

[real yacht]

is there a guide or video for "best" method with fang or is it just the tile pack in the plugin for melee hydra?

[somber dagger]

Its not hard, but would watch the skip lightning melee tech

[real yacht]

gotcha

[frozen olive]

Idk what the tile pack has but you can stall for a tick on lance tiles and you won't have to do as much movement

[random berry]

Searching these threads is ass. Whats the reasoning for doom before cox? Wouldn't rigour be big there?

[fossil flame]

eye is really strong

and cox has way rarer rates is my guess even for scrolls

[craggy granite]

If I sequence some CAs from zero’s guide and push Cerb & Thermy back it gives us a pvm guide to elite CA at around 87 slayer

There may be some cox & toa expert ones that can be adjusted a little bit too maybe also being done before Sire

[magic blade]

Yeah you can get elites prior to 85. I think I was like 83 when I finished mine. Lotta points out there.

[quiet schooner]

It really depends how confident u are at content

A lot of stuff other than speeds have like no real reqs

[magic blade]

True true. Raids experience is needed for sure.

[tiny belfry]

chart on savix's channel

[dire torrent]

Link the clip or didnt happen

[inland cosmos]

The pvm exploration chart was also shown, pretty nice

https://youtube.com/shorts/L-_H4PHVNEE?si=3QrOLjnVI8VK2SyE

[round pond]

What did he expect from one of the grindiest mmos lol

[drowsy ore]

I just wanted him to click on it to make it green!

[somber dagger]

What is that second chart?

[tiny belfry]

https://discord.com/channels/166812746510368768/1404434573332447232

[slate dome]

'Im not even 98 agility'

[inland cosmos]

It’s always funny to see how people react to the 98 agility step

[sleek prawn]

do we know if dura is still better than nieve since only nieve can assign custodian stalkers?

[frozen olive]

why would you want those, its a mediocre task

[sleek prawn]

its 80k slayer xp per hour barraging?

[frozen olive]

for poor drops, in a really long run, on a slayer master with worse tasks

[sleek prawn]

wdym really long run?

its not much longer than to run to abby demons when barrging those

and those are poor drops aswell

[frozen olive]

those have more spawns, have no mage bonuses, and have much better heart rate

[sleek prawn]

well spawns doesnt matter if its equal xp per hour? i guess your right with heart rate

but its indeed expensive barraging them since they give shit

[craggy granite]

getting those seeds and cannonballs probably has some value later on? expensive, but it's not really a drop table that's covered elsewhere for something that can be grinded

[frozen olive]

there's not really much need for a lot of huscua, you can use them for like inferno or other endurance challenges but the secondary takes too long for them to be used liberally

the cball drops are very low

[sleek prawn]

my thought aswell

85k slayer xp per hour is too good to miss out on imo, and nieve isnt worse than dura when you got all the tasks you want extended

better chance for inferno task aswell

[tiny belfry]

It is because “only” slayer xp is just not that valuable. Ideally when doing slayer you are looking to train other skills such as herblore, prayer, melees etc while you get nice unlocks and uniques. Else you are just burning a shit ton of resources when it could be better spend elsewhere

[sleek prawn]

nah

[strange nexus]

I think it depends on your goals like melee xp is free if you do early tob for 99 str then early Yama for maxed melees raids can fund your herb supply. Prayer xp is valueable. ( this is assuming you don’t care about post 99 xp)

That being said I spooned hydra and I had absolutely no issues with prayer being pvm focused

[sleek prawn]

exactly

i get the other thing if you arent experienced in pvming

[frozen olive]

This just sounds like you wanna justify the task by any means lol, do it if you want to, all the good tasks are lower weight on nieve

[sleek prawn]

turael skipping anyways

[frozen olive]

Soooo even less efficient

Gl

[strange nexus]

Tura is underrated since the changes especially with the up coming changes

[sleek prawn]

aint doing any slow melee tasks gl to you aswell

[sleek prawn]

exactly

never been bad to turael skip

[magic blade]

[strange nexus]

I’d be curious to see the may from pre may 2024 buff and slayer rework for time saves tura skipping I’m guessing it has to be 2x as fast but that’s a guess

I may do the math later if I get bored lol

[sleek prawn]

yea 100%

looking really forward to it

for rev task hunting aswell

[strange nexus]

I also think it matters to do what you enjoy especially if it’s close in efficiency

[sleek prawn]

yup

i have always been barraging like crazy for slayer xp

getting like 5-600k xp per day

[robust roost]

has anyone done moons at the mid game stage where you'd probably want to do it, and know how long each kc takes?

[indigo hollow]

I’ve only done it with like Bandos + hasta/tent whip, but if no one here knows, you could maybe look for some VODs from the Farmers or another current content creator GIM

Or B0aty maybe

[robust roost]

i probably won't go that out of the way for it

just trying to explain to someone why moons is not meta, and thought a number of how many hours you waste there might help xd

[indigo hollow]

Ah, gotcha. I think it’s as simple as moons not helping with CG and CG basically nullifying moons gear

Other than blue moon, which you can replace with bloodbark

[ashen shell]

I did rush moons do a few KC and got 1 item now. But I just play for fun. And moons is quite fun here and there.

[robust roost]

i wonder if there's an argument you can make for getting blood moon to do huey for dhw for bursting

that's prob not better than just bursting with scepter

[hybrid blaze]

The barrage is good but if you want to optimise it a sotd is a better option afaik

[strange nexus]

I’d say blood moon probably only saves a couple hours for the dhw grind I’d say the argument for it would just be a fun more linear gear progression instead of skipping steps

[robust roost]

i'd be hard pressed to find any living being willing to sotd barrage slayer (including me)

wait what the heck

treads before double charge??

[strange nexus]

I seen the farmers do it but I’m with you fuck that.

[indigo hollow]

I did it for a bit on my GIM, honestly wasn’t too terrible. It’s not like it’s crazy high APM

[robust roost]

it's not, but it's relatively high apm for an activity that would otherwise be completely afk

or fairly high amounts of afk anyway

one thing i absolutely cannot stand is monotonous high apm

[indigo hollow]

I never felt it was very afk unless I had really bad dps, like if I was using burst instead of barrage

[robust roost]

like i will never ever blackjack lol

oh yeah maybe im biased then since i always did slayer super early and ended up bursting as a result

[hollow cobalt]

It barely saves an hour on the pet grind lol

[strange nexus]

Yeah but I think it would save more early on as you wouldn’t have the best crush options compared to us using scythes

[chilly ruin]

i assume the pet grind calcs are using something like DHL tho, getting blood moon for DHW in this context surely means over using like dragon mace or something pitiful

or is it post hasta

[indigo hollow]

It probably beats hasta tbh

But yeah I’d assume this is talking about using blood moon the whole time instead of just tail phase

[strange nexus]

And with tail having reduced HP I bet it’s a lot less if you assume other 2 people have full blood moon

[lavish ledge]

is sailing going to be pita for irons?

[hybrid blaze]

If you have the wind in your back it'll be a breeze

[lavish ledge]

are you hyped

[hybrid blaze]

Yes

[somber dagger]

Who isn't hyped of EOS!!!

[frozen olive]

Evolution of sailing

[lavish ledge]

highscores will open up again would be interesting to see

[round pond]

The return of lynx titan

[unborn night]

Lynx titan would get obliterated imo

If its a single skill to 200m, he'll get smashed, if its all skills to 200m different story lol

[frozen olive]

I have faith the lasagna man would make a good run of it

[real yacht]

Question about Yama drops. if I have my main attacking it a bit and take contribution does it mess with the rate of 1/120 for uniques? cause when I do this I get less normal drops but does it effect the unique

[forest knot]

unique drop rate scales based on contribution, if your alt does damage, he's taking drop chance away from you

[real yacht]

but the alt is dying over time and not nin the room after

[tiny tundra]

contribution doesnt transfer when an account dies. like if you're duoing and your patner planks right before yama dies its still 50% loot too for example

[real yacht]

Hmm gotcha then ill just keep doing 4x horns and let the account die without doing damage

[somber dagger]

Some people will get two people playing same acc

[frail sonnet]

clearly use crush ring from callisto for better DWH accuracy for muspah 🔥

[slate dome]

Sir?

That comment was 3 months ago

Whats happening here

[frail sonnet]

but someone necro'd the thread today

blame them

[full panther]

gg

[slate dome]

The thread isnt necro'd

It's active every day

But why dig up a 3 month old comment lol

[frail sonnet]

I searched for smth unrelated in discord search and u came up

[slate dome]

Xd

[frail sonnet]

however ur all wildy off topic

crush ring for muspah bis

[real yacht]

Where are the major places Ayak shakes up progression? I know its good at zulrah but outside of replacing trident where does it really help on the account?

[hybrid blaze]

isnt that about it?

it replaces trident

ive heard people say its good on wardens at toa at specific gear sets and raid levels

[real yacht]

yeah but wasnt sure if it edged out other content in terms of dps. I know toa vs bowfa is a point of contention in certain set ups

yep

wanted to make sure there werent other cases like that

[hybrid blaze]

its huge at cox I think(?)

still a trident replacement but now with large impact

[real yacht]

yeah I know people are talking about cox over toa in terms of mega rushing is an option

[frozen olive]

It's very close to shadow in a lot of places or maybe beats it? Pnm pillars for example

[hybrid blaze]

That screams bait to me

[real yacht]

yeah that makes sense no over kill

[real yacht]

well its not that its better or more efficient but its less of a time loss because ayak is really good

[frozen olive]

You still want shadow for Cox, it's not just olm

[opal dagger]

If cox was a similar length grind to toa then that argument would have more validity. The problem is that boosting cox efficiency is way more valuable than toa efficiency

[fossil flame]

i personally think ayak good enough though that u dont have to commit to shadow anymore for cox

still ideal to get ofc

[real yacht]

I was looking at calcs just for mage hand I know its useful* on other rooms but dps is same with 1% mage gear. I think when u start gtting ances pieces its very worth to hard pivot back to toa

[fossil flame]

ye id say its worth regardless from optimal standpoint

but gap before with trident shadow was really big before where it was almost trolling to not get one pre cox

[mortal perch]

Fair, but if shadow is barely better then eye while cox upgrades are alot better then their alternatives it would still justify going cox first, its not only a question of how long the grind is but also how much of an upgrade the drops give to the other raid

If you estimate cox is 3x longer then toa, you would need to compare the time save of twisted bow + ancestral in toa vs shadow in cox, the tbow + anc needs to be 3 times better time save then the shadow is

and depending on what layouts your doing in cox, it very much could be

the other thing you need to consider is toa gets disproportionate benefit from better gear as it not only allows faster completions but also higher invocations to be run, so you have a compounding effect in place with having better gear

I'm not sure which is better but I think its close enough to actually run some calcs before instantly dismissing as bait based on vibes only

eye compliments tbow very nicely in toa, it does awesome everywhere that tbow/fang doesn't (akkha, obelisk, wardens p2 mage), having tbow on the way to shadow is massive in toa and I really think people are not considering how big it is

most importantly it slaps in wardens p4 which is the only hard part of the raid left, which would allow you to pump invo

[quiet schooner]

Isnt shadow a lot better at cox than bowfa or eye

It's close at olm but not everywhere else

[somber dagger]

if you have ancestral yes

and imbued heart for some cases

[fossil flame]

saw someone post about how them having decently strong magic gear and still losing to bowfa

if they didint have ovl

or was basically same dps

[somber dagger]

Yep, magic boost potions sucks ass

Well I haven't done the calcs after the new 50% accurate brackets after you miss

But seems very strong

[mortal perch]

thats from my calcs, doesnt feel like shadow is that much better on anything other then portal

gotta remeber your in ahrims at this stage

but hey cox is longer to completion and numbers are hard so I guess this is just bait?

[somber dagger]

is this with the 50% accury if you miss an attack? i believe the wiki doestn have the calc for it yet?

[mortal perch]

all my stuff was calc'd on gearscpae

which claims to factor that in

[frozen olive]

don't you shadow mystics and shamans too? idr calcs for everything

[somber dagger]

so i did the wiki, it says that mage setup is 11.47 dps on muta small with eye of arrak, and thats without the special effect

[mortal perch]

fair enough, regardless it would benefit the eye (further closing the gap between eye & shadow)

[somber dagger]

yep!

so i guess you can skip shadow nowdays

but tbow isnt that great in toa right?

[mortal perch]

thats calcs for mystics

about 0.5 dps

but bofa is almost as good as shadow

so shadow is only worth about 0.1 dps

Idk other then portal, in gear thats appropriate for the grind, eye either beats shadow, slightly loses to shadow or bofa slightly loses to shadow, the benefit really isn't that great

[frozen olive]

you run occ and gain .2-.4

[mortal perch]

in my calc it went to 8.5 with occ

[frozen olive]

I think it's safe to say you're gonna have magus and maybe virt

[mortal perch]

gear prog chart doesnt have virtus on it

[frozen olive]

you're gonna get some pieces on avg

1 for each ring

[mortal perch]

if its not on there doesnt really make sence to calc, particuarly when you would be on rate to maby get 1 piece?

to be clear, i agree shadow is good when you get good mage gear to juice it, not before

[frozen olive]

🤷‍♀️ I get almost +3 dps on a lot of the stuff we just calced, but again thats without gauntlet passive

[mortal perch]

such as?

and are you using gear thats not on the prog chart?

[frozen olive]

I'm just adding virt because I got it from the grinds, and you should get magus if you have shadow

https://i.imgur.com/8k1Op10.png

[mortal perch]

i mean you do you and thats fine lol

but not super relevant for the conversation about if the chart should recommend cox or toa first

i got an early tbow so my entire path is non-standard but that shouldn't relfect in the chart

[somber dagger]

Also you will have occult on mystic with shadow

[mortal perch]

my calcs had salve as better

[frozen olive]

it looks like it's better with salve yeah, at least pre anc

[mortal perch]

i checked that cause it looks wrong

but its right at the gear level

[somber dagger]

Occult gives 24% magic strenght with shadow hmm

[frozen olive]

its 15 innit

[somber dagger]

Damn wtf

Ye Okey salve better ye

[mortal perch]

the accuracy is likely why its better

[somber dagger]

Yep

[frozen olive]

idk I think this full grind for tbow to benefit toa seems bad, cox is just so long

[somber dagger]

Still getting ancestral also

While toa you dont really care about masori

[frozen olive]

either way you'd be actively progressing the mega you have

[somber dagger]

If you have shadow yes

[frozen olive]

if you have tbow too, you go to toa and actively progress by getting masori

[mortal perch]

to be clear, im not suggesting its 100% cox first case closed

I just think people should not instantly dismiss the idea and call it bait

do some math, make some assumptions

[somber dagger]

Yep, but if you don't have shadow or tbow, ancestral is more usefull then masori

[mortal perch]

come to a conclusion; like idk it doesnt feel like its that unreasonable

I suspect, to justify shadow first you would need to do some calcs on picking up ancestral pieces along the way for the cox grind

eg 30% cox no anc, 30% cox 2pc, 30% cox 1 pc or something like that

if you did that; I could see the time save from shadow pulling ahead

but once again, i think its worth investigating further

thats all

[somber dagger]

Ye, mage at toa pre shadow is not that great, similar to bowfa but coins go brrrr

So you proboly end up haveing bowfa most of the time and melee, so ancestral upgrade doesn't have much to say

So ye shadow is likely the best rush

[frozen olive]

Looking at rates, and max eff times, assuming reg, non scaled cox you're looking at close to 300 hours for tbow, if you do 3+12/2+13 it's closer to 200
Reynold has a 32 min Toa 400 pre fang, which on rate is just over 200 hrs, but you'd likely be going higher post fang

[mortal perch]

3+12 doesnt even use shadow pre-olm

[frozen olive]

The assumption is your duos/trios would have them and you'd mostly melee

[mortal perch]

and eye is basically the same at low gear levels

i think its also important to note, better gear is just faster clear times in cox

but in toa better gear means higher invo so its has a compounding effect

not unreasonable to calc 400's if shadow first or 450 if you get anc + tbow first

[frozen olive]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't be doing 450 post fang, megas or not

[quiet schooner]

Is this with magus too

U also shadow big mutta with good enough mage gear

Like basically the only thing u don't shadow is tekton

Stuff like being able to 2 shot rope before they even hit u can be a big supply save

[mortal perch]

with ahrims?

[quiet schooner]

Ya when I calced it when I got my shadow basically the turning point was adding magus

[mortal perch]

was a little while ago but i dont think i used magus in those calcs

[frozen olive]

oh yeah rope forgot that

[quiet schooner]

U should

[mortal perch]

fair

[craggy granite]

At what gear does shadow beat out eye at cox? Ancestral/Virtus?

[mortal perch]

its also important to consider

[craggy granite]

And how much better is that there?

[mortal perch]

that on the flip side, you get ancestral +tbow for toa

which is very big

[craggy granite]

There’s probably some combination of do cox and once you get 2 pieces of ancestral or w/e go toa

[mortal perch]

would need to calc but eye with ancestral might beat bofa at akkha + obelisk (use the eye spec also)

[craggy granite]

That’s probably a different type of thing

[mortal perch]

on a vibes basis i suspect that is correct Land

[craggy granite]

There’s probably another page where you put what you’ve got from toa/cox and it’ll give you recommendations

For which one

Basically I think that at that point you’d be focusing on optimizing time to next upgrade

I’d do 2x ancestral/virtus pieces and a spec weapon -> toa

[full panther]

what ingame icon would yall use as a default for "couldnt find an image for this one"? :)

[frozen olive]

Ely

[mortal perch]

Dwarf head

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/193mhs8/why_is_there_a_placeholder_for_a_dwarf_in_my_bank/

[full panther]

oh i love this, totally forgot about null

oh its runelite, not canonically in game

[normal prism]

Now that doom is in front of zulrah, how do we deal with the venom at doom?

[inland cosmos]

Cake of guidance

[quiet schooner]

Spade

[quiet schooner]

Probably antipoison

[ember summit]

where are the main uses for venator bow?

[quiet schooner]

whisperer colosseum afk slayer

[indigo hollow]

Araxytes

BIS on dawn too, I think

[quiet schooner]

i swapped to just using nally on dawn

saves u like 8 inventory slots

[ember summit]

I'm currently working on icon and got 3/5 shards lmao

still no icon

[quiet schooner]

idk if thats good or not tbh

[indigo hollow]

Yeah I did the same

[quiet schooner]

i did notice that skip is way less consistent tho

like bp venny is basically always

sometimes nally just doenst hit high

[indigo hollow]

Yeah nally is lower dps

I think it was reasonably close to my dps with amethyst darts though?

So I just dropped the ranged switch for inventory space

[quiet schooner]

ya its chill just clicking with nally

[ember summit]

only 91 slayer so no Nally yet

and i'm guessing the arazytes are post araxxor log

[indigo hollow]

Yeah, they’re the best task for heart

[ember summit]

oh nice!

[strange nexus]

Personally I got the boots for rax makes rax slightly more chill

[abstract oracle]

Where does barrows or moons fit into this chart?

Also 98 agility on the first row is kind of steep no?

[strange nexus]

Both grinds are more efficient to skip

Bowfa hard carries

[strange nexus]

98 agility is a bit troll but its just there because if your planning on maxing that would be the most efficient time to do it.

[opal patrol]

i did both and its kinda useless

blood moon is only good thing about moons

but ehh

[abstract oracle]

isnt blood moon on par with bandos and eclispe good til bofa?

[opal patrol]

eclipse is useless if youre going for bofa

ive yet to use mye clipse set lol

[chilly ruin]

when you have the requirements to farm eclipse you have the requirements to farm a bofa

[opal patrol]

^

[abstract oracle]

you can do moons at like 80 combat though, need more to get to gauntlet :/

more so the other skill reqs

[opal patrol]

its not gonna be good to do moons at lvl 80

really slow

if you wanna do it then do it

[woven nova]

the idea is minimizing the amount of pvm before bowfa

[opal patrol]

itll just be miserable

[woven nova]

after u get bowfa unlocking everything else is so much easier regarding gear ugprades

[opal patrol]

trust me i followed b0atys guide and it wasnt good lol

[woven nova]

you can just spend the time at barrows and moons with mediocre gear instead getting to cg and doing cg

[loud panther]

10 hours at barrows -> 30 hours at moons -> go to CG -> throw moons gear in the garbage

Just skip the first two and go right to CG

[lunar lodge]

As someone who never did barrows/moons and went back to do them much later with max combats much better gear... I was appalled by how slow they are even with vastly better stats/gear than most people who are doing them.

It's tough to believe people intentionally do that to themselves with bad gear/stats.

[timber ermine]

Guess you can cope some clears for ca's for the med CA > void range grind

[opal patrol]

pretty much what i did lol

[chilly ruin]

yea thats reasonable

[loud panther]

I think moons is fun on mobile, and the hybrid stuff can save you invent slots so its not totally useless. Youre better served focusing on bowfa tho

[real yacht]

@full panther what are your thoughts on the cox vs toa calcs above from @mortal perch do you think there is merti in spliting the grinds now and mroe rng dependent if you get x ances pieces rush shadow or if you spoon tbow you go toa for masori etc etc. do you think there will be any changes in terms of end game raiding prio?

[full panther]

i have little reason to doubt the calcs. i think that for me theyre still incomplete for showing if cox comes before toa these days. my gut still says tbow is a longer grind than toa, so that the speedup in cox needs to be BIG before changing up how things were, but expected time to shadow also increased, so i dont know, but still lean toa before cox

on a personal note, i like cox detour

[real yacht]

Yeah i think it'll mostly be for me atleast not feeling guilty going to cox now instead of toa cause numbers are close. Good mesh of both as both raids help each other's main goal

[frozen olive]

I mean I definitely think you get Cox prayers, fang/lb/ward from toa then re-evaluate

Could always be like hoofi and go 8x for rigour

[real yacht]

Brutal

Im stuck at yama with 2 horns in 282 kc so hopefully its all solved and decided by the time im raiding more seriously

[quiet schooner]

id rather literally eat my own shit than do moons at 80 combat

[abstract oracle]

Was still clearing CA for speed time at 80 Combat, it's really not that bad.

Plus bofa only replaces eclipse..... doesn't replace blood.

[hollow cobalt]

Bandos replaces blood

and you get bandos with bowfa

[real yacht]

I liked moons purely for the fact it was a pvm grind I could do on mobile. Helped alot

[hollow cobalt]

If you like it neato have fun,

that doesn't change the chart

[chilly cove]

@full panther the sepulchre step faq explanation is missing alchs & gp value, ppots, ranarr weeds, and sanfews

[full panther]

thanks, will fix

[quiet chasm]

whats the setup for artio? bofa crystal top bottom?

[opal patrol]

i did something like this but not sure if its good

[quiet chasm]

sweet, thanks, only 91 magic so might want to boost for barrage

[frozen olive]

Should be able to fit crystal helm in as a +1, but if you have no extra armor seeds/aren't confident the above is fine

[inland cosmos]

that is possible yeah, but you want to be 0 or higher magic accuracy to catch freezes

[frozen olive]

Yeah you'd need to have ma2, b gloves, ring of shadow etc

[fast violet]

im gonna come out and say it, the 98 agi and wrath runes shouldnt be on the guide as they are more or less implied without being on the guide but scare the new players into instantly closing the guide as soon as they see it

[chilly ruin]

the aim isnt to gather as many new players as possible tho

but to route efficient progression

[inland cosmos]

I kind of agree that 98 agility is implied by directly following bruhsailer. The chart is also more of an overview instead of a direct step by step guide that bruhsailer is

98 agility is not directly tied to pvm either, and is rather overrated if you don’t go all the way to 98 (loot is mediocre to bad pre 92)

The agility xp is ehp but if you don’t value maxing/agility xp then it’s not actually as efficient

I don’t think wrath runes is the same thing tho

One of the main problems if 98 agility is removed is that people will be confused by how to get money for con and magic at that stage of the account

[frozen olive]

100k moths

[inland cosmos]

But at the same time the 98 agility step is not properly stating to be sep anyway

For people who glance at it anyway

[frozen olive]

Something probably should be changed, there's like 3+ ppl a day that come by and ask what that means, and that's only the ppl that bother

[inland cosmos]

Idk I think there is merit to removing the step, but I also think it’s fair to keep

In its current state I don’t think the 98 agility step works

[fast violet]

the 1st construction step could be left out aswell without losing much

[chilly ruin]

i'd probably just suggest replacing it with the skills tab icon or the relevant components. magic xp, herblore xp, cash, runes or whatever. 98 agility obviously doesnt do it justice and imo the previous RoE was at least a little clearer in being sepulchre focused

[sharp hawk]

Why avernic treads before vile transference? Doesn’t vile transference make delves easier to get drops like treads?

Or am I crazy?

[indigo hollow]

I think the idea is you don’t spec often enough with chally (and maybe bp for car phase) that double dc makes a huge difference

It’s not like if you had a ZCB, where you really need as much spec regen as possible

Oh and at that point in the chart you don’t even have bp yet, so specs are even less significant

[wild minnow]

Is wraths = 95 RC? I saw another thread where someone was contemplating 90 RC and boosting. At that stage what are Wraths even that to be spicing up for

[somber dagger]

yes

they are for demonic offering (prayer xp)

[hollow cobalt]

90 and boosting is fine

[wild minnow]

When do people use that? I just grab my banked ashes and tp to the fountain and rune for those, outside maybe TDs

[somber dagger]

in slayer task

take up the ash, use spell when 3 ash, repeat

only worth on malicious ashes+ right?

[wild minnow]

Im trying to think of a task where I'd want that. Maybe Sire? Cuz Abbys/Nechs are barraged anyways

Or demonics Ig

[hollow cobalt]

tds, demonics

[somber dagger]

can do nechs in slayer tower and use it

zalcano if you do that

[frozen olive]

its good for tech at cerb to save a ppot dose

[full panther]

the 98 agi is a pain point for sure. One option could be to treat sep a bit like enhanced version of bstaves, tho with huge upfront time cost before it gets really good

[somber dagger]

add wildy agility to 90 instead 🫡

[frozen olive]

can you imagine the threads about wildy on reddit

[somber dagger]

truuuue

perma dislike

[full panther]

one option that exists is the assumption of doing sep that the rest of the chart assumes to some extent stays, but the step gets removed

thats information loss, but increased palatability lol

[frozen olive]

do ppl even read anyway

[full panther]

those in the know are unaffected, and those that can't "bridge the gap" come ask questions about how to make it work and they get told sep

sep really isnt a hill that an account needs to die on anyways

the workarounds are very easy lol

its time loss to neglect it but like, not that extreme for how time consuming it is

i think overemphasizing it is also a bit meh maybe

if u ask me, i do think bstaves sounds less fun than sep, but it comes online immediately

[hollow cobalt]

I haven't done any sep on the hc and it's fine, but it would indeed be efficient

[full panther]

can do it for exactly as long as you need, then move on to the other stuff

anyways, happy to pick this back up tomorrow and even consider removing it if y'alls observations "in the field" is that the step is a very big turnoff for a lot of players

[chilly ruin]

imo, a simple icon just can't communicate all the assumptions being made in its inclusion

[full panther]

That one does do a lot more lifting than the rest do in assumptions

[proven swallow]

I'm sure it's explained somewhere in this thread, but why did Fang drop in priority? Seems like it's further along the progression chart now.

[drowsy ore]

It’s in preparation for metal dragons to be yeeted in slayer changes

[novel sable]

I'm at at the LB stage of ladlor progression guide, is it worth taking a detour to get the crafting cape?

[hollow cobalt]

probably not

doesn't really do anything

[craggy granite]

Can put gp coins and Ranarr seeds where sep is and be more or less fine

People can fund construction with more battlestaves

Wildy agility

And can get prayer pots through farming contracts that would carry them through a good chunk too

[frozen olive]

put a jane image above every pvm grind

[mortal perch]

Have we defined exacty what the chart is trying to achive?

Is it an efficient path to max gear

Is it an efficient path to max overall

Like if we define that well it should make answering the question around 98 agi alot easier

It also might help communicate to new users what the chart is trying to achieve which can allow them to understand if its the right guide/chart for them

If the intent is a mathematically correct, hyper efficient path, it might be a good idea to say that at the top or something

If the intent is to build a guide to help irons on their journey; the chart would be alot more effective at achieving that goal if some consideration was given to making its more approachable (even if at the cost of overall efficiency)

This is all just an opinion but in my experience there is little value in building a technically correct solution if nobody is going implement it. Better to water it down in areas that don't matter too much so its easier to swallow. Just my 2 cents

To be clear, no objections to it being a hyper efficient path; just say that is what it is so people don't get confused

[fossil flame]

hallowed crystals are basically a better version of this without a big req

[fossil flame]

ive always felt like it was a bit of both. I think early guide has alot of skilling/qol unlocks because you have nothing to work with no ppots seeds gear gp etc and at that point skilling will be really good to supplement that. after that guide just goes entirely into pvm for most part when your setup well to do so

[mortal perch]

To play devils advocate, by suggesting getting 98 agi a new user could feel like the guide is tailored towards max stats (stop just for 99 to not waste quest xp)

And either close the guide or skip the step which in turn means the next steps in the guide won't work

Unless you find our own work arounds

[fossil flame]

i agree 98 agility is something most people wont follow and u can get gp/supplies through other means (magic xp i guess not but ye)

like i think its defnitely efficent but i think enough ppl are not gona bother that alt route maybe should be on there

[mortal perch]

To purpose a solution to the 98 agi; you could to a y fork, something like this

Put the 98agi as "recommended" and make it clear you do one path or the other

ignore the b-staffs, just placeholder to communicate the format

[fossil flame]

i think wildy agility would just be better for gp if ur not gona do sep thats hot take but ye

just bstaffes can get u gp

ud have to find some work arounds for magic xp/ppots though (I think taking the L on magic/contracts for ppots is okay its fine if its less optimal thats kinda point)

[native ridge]

Is there merit to having a written companion to go with the ladlor guide? Could explain each node and why they are where they are?

[chilly ruin]

the early stuff is just bruhsailer mostly

[native ridge]

Like it would be a lot of work to do that but would save a lot of questions

[radiant pelican]

Plenty of workarounds for 98 agil they just aren't efficient. I did 1k+ farming contracts for my ranarrs (efficient), splashed and plank make for sbs (not efficient but zero time) and cg for money (efficient). I think it's good to have in the guide but to include in the faq why it's there so that people can choose other ways if they feel like it

[latent oyster]

I did the 98 agil at sep step and do not regret it at all, got so much good stuff and multiskilling done

[drowsy ore]

There is also zero’s chart that is less efficient but still a good guide

[native ridge]

link?

[craggy granite]

i think battlestaves + ranarr seeds (i don't want to put prayer pots because people will say moths)

and barrage being there implies runes

sep gives the best loot at that point, sure, but really as long as you're not short on runes for barraging

or short prayer pots

you're kind of good

you don't use the rewards other than the gp until slayer grind

When I'm short on runes or ranarr seeds, sep is great, but until then as long as i'm currently oriented towards pvm, it's not a huge deal

if someone is keeping up with farming contracts & cg & does zmi, then doing more battlestaves first is fine. just getting at least 82 agility and using mahogany planks & rune nails

before then if putting sep off

[full panther]

Assumes a player would want to skill but also pvm, and minimize total time in doing both. Pvm, but not at the cost of other progression.

Assumes user wants all items on chart.

The assumption is this because it helps with reducing subjectivity a fair bit

Its a bit of «pvm, but not at the cost of skilling»

[real yacht]

Everytime I reference your chart the first response and often overlooks why I even brought it up is 98 agility wtf?

[craggy granite]

I’m very much on the Synapse before Zenytes, do greater demon tasks at Zammy if running low on charges, and then can go Demonic Gorillas

And then that means first Zenyte is a really natural break point to go into pvm with Anguish into GWD.

I got burning claws already which is a nice spoon too

Exp rates do be good too

torture is getting used at toa, but there’s no rush there

And nechs are getting barraged instead of melee early on now

[full panther]

That sounds like it could make it uncomfortable to share it even

[real yacht]

I pretty much always put a disclaimer like don't look at the top stuff just look at the pvm items for an idea at gear progression

[full panther]

Lol

Is that mostly bcs of the agi?

[real yacht]

Id say so then wrath runes at 90 comes.up after looking through but agility is always noticed first because it has a number on it so it jumps out

[full panther]

so one intended usecase with the chart is i dont expect ppl to get everything. it always was supposed to be a frame of reference first and foremost

wrath i think personally would be nice to keep regardless

[craggy granite]

Wrath Runes weren’t needed at TDs btw

Can bank those ashes

Would be nice, but it wasn’t needed

Probably most relevant at melee nechs and maybe dg’s

Those trips would be long enough where it’s more relevant

[full panther]

so here is what im weighing currently:

could remove 98 agi step because its not pvm prog, in an otherwise pvm dominated chart. i can consider it the bis moneymaking at that stage of the account, and it'd be up to the users to learn that on their own

[craggy granite]

Karamja Elite being soon after CG feels right unless people want to do Nieve (which ain’t unreasonable)

I think that noting GP -> Your Goals and Ranarrs is good

Putting the items you get from sep

Would be more relevant than the agility level

If someone chooses to go about thieving master farmers to fund their ranarr habit instead, it’s not efficient, but at least they’re able to progress

If someone is logging on to do farming contracts and prefers doing that to excess

Forever instead of sepulchre

They can end up in a fine spot

[full panther]

this was my position

cg dragged on for nearly half a year, and i loved farm contracts

[craggy granite]

Same

I’ve got over 100 ranarr seeds from my time at cg and closing in to 99 farming, and I’m cool with doing contracts

Plus I gaslit myself into saying mahogany planks at sep is more efficient

So touch grass

Mostly kidding, but there are a lot of ways to make progress, and I think prescribing specifically Sep will get pushback

I’ll do my Sep if I ever run low on seeds, and after I do more Barb fishing

[full panther]

personally i think for what the chart represents, the 98 agi step is fine. I think practically in palatability, the 98 agi step is borderline not fine, or outright not fine

[craggy granite]

And as I make more progress

I think prayer pots and a note about efficient ways to source ranarr seeds would be more palatable and then we can fight against moonlight moths

Which the Reddit needs more warriors there

[full panther]

not looking to fight anything, only looking to be informative and useful

people want a frame of reference, and also like making boxes green, thats whats being provided c:

[craggy granite]

Yeah, it’s more that the moonlight moth disinformation is pretty actively bad 🙁

I think that’s overall harmful towards progression

So long as someone has a method for making gp, and is informed of methods to get ranarrs, I think they’re in a spot where they’re good

[full panther]

im not really out "in the field" so much to see if thats actively the case about moonlight moths. i do see ppl doing blighted fire capes tho heh. anyways, the core constraint of the chart is simplicity

[craggy granite]

A link to some moneymaking and Ranarr sources and emphasizing Sep as being turbo efficient for those I think is valuable

but it’s a gear progress chart

[full panther]

it could be considered scope-creep, but its not out of the question

[craggy granite]

And that means gear/items

[full panther]

i've updated my backend to possibly allow for quests c:

[craggy granite]

that’s awesome

[full panther]

theyd all be having the quest point icon, but maybe to help differentiate things, their backgrounds would be color coded according to their difficulty

and maybe tagged with the initials of the quest name too

but thats just a bit of an idea for now, no promises

so anyhow, items, construction objects, spells, skills, quests, and slayer rewards can now all be trivially inserted into the chart

[full panther]

Here is the situation how i see it:

1. 98 agi through sep remains an unambiguously great move
2. it benefits slayer directly (ppots) and indirectly (magelvls, con)
3. it truthfully is easily replaceable for those that refuse the step, without being very detrimental
4. its the single largest pain point of the chart, possibly capping growth.
5. some users when surprised by 98 agi step might learn the strengths of sep
6. if removed, those in the know already know whats up, unaffected. Newer people would not be in the know, and wouldnt care regardless possibly, and coudl always ask questions anyways

im leaning towards removal

[woven nova]

ngl i would rather just put a symbol for hallowed sepulchre rather than 98 agil cuz u can do 99 or just some f4/f5 anyways, it’s good training either way

[steel bough]

Maybe the icon needs changing to a combination of the Agility icon and the Hallowed Crystal Shard.
Sep remains an unknown for many people, as they only see rooftops agility courses as the way to go - either way, the alt text is not sufficent because the method is not stated clearly? I know people should refer to the BruhSailor guide, but people are dumb.

[woven nova]

unlocking hallowed sepulchre also shows completing the questline

[ocean girder]

Maybe you can add sub/smaller icons to the requirements that shows what the requirement is for and if you hover on it it shows you the loot/exp/grind objective and if you click on it you get a pop up with a written explanation as well as alternatives

[steel bough]

haha I literally had that same thought and typed it as you did 😂

[ocean girder]

I think that solves the confusion for sep and all others and keep the redditors happy

[woven nova]

ye lol

[ocean girder]

While conserving a minimal view unless you want to go into details

[woven nova]

you could literally embed the picture maybe or something with hallowed sepulchre looting calc

just because people don’t like it doesn’t mean it should be removed, i think there is an awkward mesh between skilling and pvm unlocks here but putting a hallowed sepulchre symbol (same way u do wrath runes) might help

it’s supposed to be educational don’t just remove it because people don’t like it or are confused

[full panther]

definitely agree with this

and the metrics arent showing its a problem

[woven nova]

a chart like this misses a ton of explanation anyways since it’s just pictures

[full panther]

regarding the icon that would communicate sep loot at that step, which one would be best here? from how i've made the backend now, icons from the wiki are ideal

option 1:

option 2:

pros on option 2: its literally sep loot. cons: might encourage prematurely spending hallowed marks on sep loot lol

[inland cosmos]

I like option 1

[full panther]

option 1: unambiguously want this regardless. still encodes doing sep

and its not trolling to buy a lot of it

[steel bough]

I think option 1 with a good alt text explanation?
The main issue is that that entire step is hundreds of hours of progress in muliple skills and EHP, they don't know why they are doing it

[full panther]

i think some tolerance for ambiguity not attempted resolved by the chart itself is tolerable

[steel bough]

Hell you could even embed a specific link to BruhSailor guide in the alt text for explanation?

[full panther]

could add an url here to the doc. not sure why i havent thought of implementing that yet

the "cost" of alt text in general is maintenance burden

[steel bough]

Yeah I see your point, maintenance is something you want to avoid for future proofing

[inland cosmos]

a change that is comfortable for maintenance is preferable

[steel bough]

URL in the bottom would be good, at least directing people to the google doc can help

[full panther]

chart has been updated with a hallowed crystal shard replacing 98 agility

[frail sonnet]

are u sure dc upgrade and boots shouldnt be flipped

[craggy granite]

with what spec weapon would it be relevant

[full panther]

im no doom expert, but im not convinced dc2 upgrade meaningfully improves the encounter at that stage

[craggy granite]

if you already have blowpipe then sure, dc2 makes sense

but if I don't have blowpipe yet, and I also want to take into account all of the other reqs needed to send Yama vs Delve

Delve is much more accessible

and stat wise, the melees from Yama aren't going to be impactful at Delve, but the ridic amount of prayer exp from Delve will be more relevant at Yama

fwiw Voidwaker is a long grind and if going just for lightbearer at that point, I don't know how needed that is, dragon pickaxe coming in before TOA is super correct, not having to do the tick perfect strat with rune pickaxe at 85 mining seems good

[frail sonnet]

chally

[strange nexus]

Does the chart assume your training melee when doing slayer for the unlocks ( doing the eff melee tasks ) ?

Like im assuming its saying fang then fang hydra? Feel like moving yana up be worth it for the combat xp?

Move inf after bp and then oath?

[round pond]

Ngl instead of an item icon maybe a literal "98 at sepulchre" would do the trick

[native ridge]

In the first construction set, is the dark
Altar chosen mainly due to thrall use?

Or could any of the altars be made at this step

[thick spoke]

if you're using any spec at all on doom I'd get dc first

it's 100 yama kills for an upgrade you'd use not just at doom but elsewhere also

[full panther]

could concatenate them, making them sequence invariant lol

[desert flume]

it’s annoying and slow to go to the zeah guy

compared to pharaoh scepter tp for ancients

[strange nexus]

Also the scepter is really strong if you plan on solving clues. Saves more time then swaping in poh to ancients

[craggy granite]

In my head the progression path for me is bgs and get whatever bandos armor on the way there, whatever between that and second Synapse, and then Yama after Inferno. Getting the melee exp there & oathplate looks really good

And I’m more enticed by higher stats

[wide sentinel]

Is this just an icon change or is the goal for this step now different?

[full panther]

icon change, step still represents the same, sep access, do content for gp, ppots, whatever

can functionally be treated as access to powerful moneymaker alternative to bstaves while also working towards max

[craggy granite]

One of the "issues" that exists imo is that with the amount of overlap in some of the new updates, there is a lot of room to say "I got what I was going for, let's keep it going" where it doesn't immediately need to be camped until completed

e.g.
If I get Bandos Armour while going for BGS, that's a big plus. Sure there's no need to camp that, but now maybe when I'm at Yama I can go for the remaining piece instead

I'm going for a Synapse, but I got Burning Claws, now do I still want Voidwaker for TOA or am I saying that I'm good enough atm?

Going for Avernic Threads would be awesome, but if i get the Eye, maybe making the detour to Zulrah first

etc etc etc

it kind of makes gear progression a lot more fluid which is good

but it also makes other parts of things more complicated

feels like there's an exception to almost every rule

[full panther]

design choices are made based on expected value

[thick spoke]

you can't plan for all these niche cases where someone spoons x instead of getting the y they came for

[tacit crow]

I mean treads is an interesting one because on average you will expect to get an eye before treads.

[polar void]

BRAVE

I do think treads are in a perf spot even if you're likely to get eye first, they're too good to delay any longer since mokha kills don't really get any faster before ZCB or Tbow, quiver if you're a gamer beforehand

[wild minnow]

One thing that is weird about the shard icon... Using the wiki redirects to the item page. It's the cheaper teleport item that might confuse people into thinking that the teleport, not doing sep itself, is the step

[hybrid blaze]

[chilly ruin]

i'm still in favour of it just being listing out relevant components of sep, i think that is still not entirely clear

i think the step should still be sepulchre but the agil lvl is not the goal and shouldnt be the icon

[full panther]

so, some maintenance implications: on my backend ive made it so that a simple list like

[["abyssal whip", "bandos godsword", ["arclighgt"], ...] is all that needs to be shoved in, and the chart is produced by other things with calling the osrs wiki API and some other solutions.

this gets the images and the wiki urls. i could make overrides that make for some exceptions, but this again increases maintenanec burden quite significantly

i can solve it, and it wouldnt be too difficult, so ill add it to the backlog

[misty thunder]

Question about the venny bow why is it so far back? Any particular reason or can it be reasonably slotted in somewhere before colo for example? I’m only asking cuz I personally can’t think of a use for it post-slayer/heart & colo grind but I of course can be wrong

[vague tusk]

the idea is you could get a megarare or 2 first which saves a bajillion years at muspah. you can just use blowpipe or w/e for the fremmy instead

i personally ignored that advice and got it for colo anyways, as i did with sgs, because i would rather do diverse content than rush megarares

[misty thunder]

Got it yeah that’s what I was figuring too but I’m on the same page with you I think where I might prefer it before Colo

[strange nexus]

I think it’s worth getting to bless a quiver and for grinding for a heart which generally would be a post shadow goal. I think it makes sense where it’s at but personally I’d prob get early just because I love that item

[desert flume]

What would you grind for venny bow with pre shadow

or pre megarare in general

I’ve seen a lot of diffy set ups

[quiet schooner]

I got mine with bowfa camp

[somber dagger]

most likely eye of ayak and bowfa

[desert flume]

ayak makes sense. bowfa camp feels bad during melee phase

[vague tusk]

my strat was send two dwh specs immediately, using bowfa camp if both hit but using a mage switch if either missed. this was from the warped perspective of already having heart but i guess nowadays you might have eye/gauntlets instead so this might still be worthwhile. that zamorak book got replaced with torm btw #ironman-discussion message

[sleek prawn]

Honestly twinflame with air Wind is not much worse than ayak at muspah

[ionic walrus]

giving up arceuus sounds horrible

[sleek prawn]

True

[karmic fossil]

good point about being able to ayak muspah pre shadow. Would saturated heart be used for cox with ayak? or where would the first place be that I’d really want heart

[sleek prawn]

You Got overloads in cox

[frozen olive]

You'd prepot but you get ovl so quickly you wouldn't bring

Whisp, muspah, zulrah come to mind

Pnm and maybe tob?

[karmic fossil]

okay maybe I‘ll knock out heart upgrade + venny right after cox prayers then

[rustic grove]

so..98 agility huh? then 80 con + 83 farming

[woven nova]

You should already be very high farming by then because of farming contracts

Sepulchre gives u like 400-500k con xp also for very very cheap

And the gp to train con at that stage of the account

[craggy granite]

I think that Sep Crystal is more clear because that also makes Sins of the Father implied, i think that icon swap is ++

[woven nova]

Agreed

[rustic grove]

what is warped used for in this chart? I got it because I wanted to farm rex for B ring

[woven nova]

Toa i think

U can farm rex with an ibans staff

[rustic grove]

yeah I just wanted to send a lot of kc if needed with blood spells, ended up spooning it

[woven nova]

understandable

it’s so good early that it’s worth doing lower kc trips when u don’t have blood spells

but ur past that point

[silent pasture]

Mainly for raids

[cedar hawk]

my progressions is all over the place lol

[neon eagle]

is tht brine saber?

[cedar hawk]

prescription goggles?

oh shit sounds usefull does it take long to get?

so i just need to finish my voidwaker and get ligthbearer and i can pretty much start the oathplate grind?

not bad

[polar void]

Prescription goggles are like 3-4 hours

[full panther]

holy shit your monitor is wide

[cedar hawk]

uuh regular 27 inch lol

[full panther]

oh, whys it so stretched?

[cedar hawk]

its not

lol

[full panther]

mines 52cm

[polar void]

We comparing sizes?

Of monitors

[full panther]

ah 20.5inch

[desert flume]

think he just hit control scroll wheel down

lil ol zoom out

[full panther]

ah

you'd think i would have tried that at some point lol

[wild minnow]

1440p monitor does that, mines the same

[desert flume]

where is the quality control department for my free niche video game progression guide

[full panther]

i accidentally made an image just not work on the live page yesterday

the hallowed shard was not rendering properly for a good 15 minutes

[flat flame]

yeah this was my play too, id even bring a few melee accuracy switches like rancour/tort, defender, super attack pot, since banking was so fast... Im guessing you prob did too

[wind salmon]

Why is noxious not on here

[frozen olive]

It's same rate as rancour right, might just be same step

[fringe condor]

not enough analysis on it yet to say if its worth or not

pretty sure thats the gist of what ladlor has said before

[wind salmon]

That was my initial thought just wanted clarification

[umbral pasture]

seems pretty worthwhile to skip tentacle with it since the rancour grind is most likely going to put you at 1 or 2 pieces regardless

maybe it depends on how many pieces you get before rancour

[robust roost]

how come it's only recommended to get mediums before void instead of hards? where does void get used early?

[indigo hollow]

Chinning

[robust roost]

ic

[chilly ruin]

i do think hard is pretty doable pre chinning tho if you have like...any pvm experience. whether its time efficient im not sure but its very possible to hop around some low lvl bosses for like the 20-25kc tasks and get everything else along the way

and uh like toa/cox cas very free sometimes too

[desert flume]

Yea the entry mode tobs too

ez mode raid cas are giga points for free

[wide sentinel]

Any optimal block lists for post slayer change

[hollow cobalt]

sub out your least common block for dragons and call it a day?

[old owl]

This is why having transparent reasoning for each step in the chart would be fantastic, so I can apply it to my own uneven account progression

[somber dagger]

to much work, gotta change alot every time a boss comes out, but i guess if you want an outdated chart, then sure

[opal dagger]

the problem with that is that its large scope creep

If people need questions answered outside of what the wiki can provide, just use the discord.

Trying to document all of the conversations in this 10k comment thread plus all the other sources like bruhsailer would be a massive undertaking

[frozen olive]

It's also really hard because not everyone is operating on the same numbers/reasoning

[somber dagger]

why is venator bow so late on the chart? is it pretty aids to do with bowfa, eye of ayak?

[polar void]

It's late because its use cases before that point probably aren't enough to justify the grind before having ancestral + masori/twisted bow

Looking at its placement it appears that its primary use case is for harder CA's

Or colo speedrunning

[somber dagger]

ye truem, i guess the only use is abysall demons and collu

pretty few

[polar void]

Exactly, and it's def not needed for your first colo clear either

Muspah is not the worst grind though he has great drops so if you really want the bow, those drops will be useful if you do it earlier anyway, but yea

Prenerf muspah had such good drops especially, man

[chilly cove]

+araxytes

[somber dagger]

true

[frozen olive]

I mean it's not like you can't grind it out with bowfa only if you really care about doing afk venator tasks lol
It's just not gonna be very good

[real yacht]

When it comes to the steps of ultor/magus are those technically interchangeable with shadow or are we generally using 1 or both rings in toa without shadow

[tacit crow]

I grinded mine out with Bofa camp to get it done pre nerfs, but that ship has sailed. If you don't have may as well wait for a tbow or shadow to do it.

[dawn narwhal]

If Bandos is obsolete than what melee pvm armor do I wear? Torso and barrows?

[candid haven]

grinding graardor for specifically Bandos chestplate and Tassets was replaced with Oathplate

[dawn narwhal]

Oh okay noted

So torso and obby legs isn’t as good as oathplate

Also in the original it had bcp and tassets before the infernal cape now oathplate is after

So what is the melee set up until oath?

[hollow cobalt]

torso and oby legs

[candid haven]

^

[dawn narwhal]

Cool

Ty

So I haven’t played in a while

Im guessing bandos and moons gear isn’t worth the grind considering torso and obby legs is only a tiny bit worse but a lot easier to obtain and your time would be better spent progressing the account in a more meaningful manner?

[austere pecan]

you dont grind for bandos gear, but you do get BGS, and you are likely to get some if not all the bandos pieces in the meanwhile

so use what you get from there in the mean time

[dawn narwhal]

Ahh okay cool

I’ll probably stay for it because I love the gear

[dawn narwhal]

But does that mean yes to my question?

[frozen olive]

If you get none from that it's not worth staying no

[dawn narwhal]

Cool cool

Noted

[candid haven]

agree with what was mentioned regarding graardor ^

as for the part of your question regarding moons (and barrows) neither are worth doing and the rewards become obsolete by the time you obtain proper gear to do them (such as obtaining bowfa and other items on the chart). They can eventually be done for just a couple of kc for CAs, and you eventually do Barrows for any full set as a diary step quite later on

[robust roost]

the early muspah for icon is done with bowfa + wind surge correct?

or would you just bowfa camp

[opal patrol]

i bowfa camped

[robust roost]

i would imagine the dps from wind surge heavily outweighs greater corruption

[opal patrol]

but i didnt have wrath runes at the time

[robust roost]

yeah im just asking since icon comes before warped scepter but after wraths

and i know ive checked bowfa camp vs trident and trident being like...~40% better vs brown

wind surge should obliterate trident dps with a 65% air weakness

[opal patrol]

probably yea

[tacit crow]

Has the topic of skipping ancient icon in favor of dragon hunter wand been discussed here?

[hollow cobalt]

yes

[tacit crow]

Still in favor of sceptre then I guess. Guessing DHW takes too long with terrible melee gear/stats

[robust roost]

even with good gear it's a pretty long grind for something that's very out of the way

[hollow cobalt]

hard to justify non-bis that isn't fast

[tacit crow]

Yeah I guess the only way it could have been justified is if it was in combination with a fang skip and using the wand for dragon tasks. But the slayer change nuked that option with 14 weight metal dragons.

[robust roost]

the one dragon you'd want it for is olm, but shadow is better and dhw doesn't help you get shadow so who cares

[hollow cobalt]

and trident exists

and eye

[robust roost]

trident just gets full skipped now lul

what a world we live in

[hollow cobalt]

right but also better than wand

[robust roost]

kraken in general is dead content

[tacit crow]

Don't even equip cerb boots too lol

[robust roost]

wand is better than sang at cox if you aren't soloing

[hollow cobalt]

sus

people always forget thralls exist

[robust roost]

it's better than sang + thralls

im not sure if it's still strictly better if you include thralls for the rest of the raid

but then you gain surge for ice/tangle for mutta/tg for rope

[hollow cobalt]

im not sure if it's still strictly better if you include thralls for the rest of the raid
no it's much worse

it turns out most of the raid is in fact not olm mage hand

[robust roost]

that's bb cape occult torm base treads and ward vs tome

wand tome left sang ward right

[hollow cobalt]

ye that seems much worse

[craggy granite]

the use case for dragon hunter wand imo is more towards the “moons -> I’ll put off bowfa and hate runecrafting & multiskilling” gameplay loop

It can probably get them dragon crossbow and wrath runes too which would be an upgrade over rcb and the wrath runes would be better over twinflame and offering spells

Efficient? Obviously not.
At this point what a decent amount of Irons probably are more willing to do? maybe, not sure

[robust roost]

bro no

please do not go for dragon crossbow

lol

if we're talking about pointless long grinds, that one is especially long

and you can't even sustain the bolts

[hollow cobalt]

So if you have wand+earth wave, you can kill roughly 60 rune dragons per hour with 0 banking

Going for dcb in theory is ~15 hrs and gets you 2k wrath runes and less than 200 bolts to use with your new crossbow

oh and it costs you 16k bloods

[craggy granite]

im saying dumb things that people who don’t want to engage in content can do 😂

Going for dhw and moons and titans beyond the prayers

Already take more time for a lot more effort

[craggy granite]

which they’ll have from barrows already!

[real yacht]

Is the ultor rush after yama strictly to help tob/collo or is it also recommended for toa grind? Or just camp lb

[robust roost]

you will not equip it for toa

unless you're using OD for some reason (please don't)

[indigo hollow]

ultor?

[robust roost]

it's pretty big at colo and tob though

yeah ultor

[indigo hollow]

Isn't there an argument for bringing both?

[robust roost]

what would be the argument for ultor?

[indigo hollow]

That it calcs better than lb when meleeing?

Outside of maybe kephri

[robust roost]

i would imagine it's a pretty similar case to nex

where things have high def that weigh more in favor of just having more vw specs

over having +12 str on your 5t melee wep

[indigo hollow]

I've simmed it and have not come to that conclusion

[frozen olive]

Yeah ultor is good at nex

[indigo hollow]

(I'm specifically talking about toa btw, I haven't looked at nex at all)

[robust roost]

i have heard repeatedly that lb > ultor at nex if your spec wep is anything better than fang

[frozen olive]

my info is probably old at this point, but my understanding was if you do 15 fang attacks between VW specs ultor wins

[real yacht]

So basically I can bring ultor for baba/kehpri. Swap for akka cum phase and wardens head

[indigo hollow]

Maybe? Depends how tight your inventory is tbh, and I think there's a decent argument for just camping lb at kephri even if ultor calced better (which I'd have to double-check). The difference (assuming you have vw) is not huge

[robust roost]

if this exact scenario is true, then you have to account for the constant downtime that nex has

[frozen olive]

I trusted the person who ran that, and they were a pretty prominent nexer at the time

[robust roost]

even in an mp2 trio i dont think you're consistently fanging 15 times per 75 seconds

[frozen olive]

but again this was a while back

[indigo hollow]

also if you do end up bringing ultor, definitely swap to lb while swarming

But overall it's a low-value switch, more like if you have a space to spare and nothing better

[real yacht]

Interesting

[indigo hollow]

Does get a bit more interesting if you're running up against a max hit threshold for 2-downing or 3-downing, whichever you're going for

[real yacht]

Sounds like something for pbs/Max eff

Sounds like toa/vard switching simulator coming up

[robust roost]

im doing what looks like some math for lb/ultor at nex with vw and it looks like the lb is just better

they come out to be the same hits to kill roughly but the lb setup gets 2 more voidwakers and none of this factors any amount of time ranging (where the ultor is doing 0)

but not factoring any healing because like how tf am i gonna try to average how much nex heals per kill lol

this is roughly what the math looks like assuming you only ever hit nex, assuming a 5+ minute kill where you regen 2 specs with ultor or 4 with lb

start with 2 get 2 from altar

but doesn't at all factor in the time spent ranging which is probably ~25% of the fight, or any amount of hp nex regenerates

where ultor is doing nothing but lb is still regenning spec

though i think accounting for the fight length does the same thing

but also has to be kept in mind that you're spending some amount of time ranging nex as well

from the looks of things it seems the two are just extremely close in general

but the ultor allows less room for error where you cap specs

so it's probably better overall

[real yacht]

If im at the point of the chart to grind ultor where would I use vw at thats worth going back for?

[hollow cobalt]

Toa, nex

cox

Tob

Vard too ig

[real yacht]

where is VW used in tob? Cox/toa I figured I know its more of a high invo wep.

I guess I was looking for other use cases but now that I look at the chart its basically do the 3 raids and nex

[opal patrol]

its used in cox too?

[hollow cobalt]

Well if you don't have dclaws you use it

[opal patrol]

chally not better?

[real yacht]

afaik its bis stab for Vasa crystal but I think most just use fang.

I dont think ive ever used a chally in chambers.

[opal patrol]

chally for tob

but makes sense for vasa crystal

[real yacht]

oo yeah chally at tob is great. You use claws and chally depending on situation

[hollow cobalt]

Chally is ok at tob

Good dps specs are better

[real yacht]

Chally is an essential spec wep at tob for efficient runs imo

[hollow cobalt]

Very overrated

It's definitely the least important spec weapon people take

Out of Maul/dwh, bgs, ralos, claws/vw, zcb and chally it's definitely the most ditchable

[chilly ruin]

id be interested in hearing why

i feel like i was told to use chally over vw for example

[hollow cobalt]

more dps more good

[chilly ruin]

lmao fair

dont think i ever checked calcs just trusted word of mouth

[hollow cobalt]

Chally is good if you have forced downtime but the actual dps is very mediocre

claws and vw are good dps

[frail sonnet]

I guess vw would be only used exactly once at bloat and whenever you feel like at p2/p3

Everything else is def specs and chally lasthitting/during downtime

Either way just bring both, you should not be braindead VWing everything after def specs are done and you should not be challying verzik 3x in a row

[real yacht]

Just doesn't seem right to bring vw a spec wep for high defense into a raid where everything goes to 0 def for the most part

But without claws I guess its the move cause iirc burning claws are only better if used early for full burn

[fossil flame]

ive liked bclaws at tob wonder how that compares esp with oathplate