Gear Progression Chart

[chilly ruin]

safespot slayer surely ends up massive then unless you rule that as no pvm

[hybrid blaze]

imo maximising pvm time is trolling

maybe minimising non-pvm time

[fickle drum]

yeah it's just that's really the only kind of metric where you can kinda objectively make a route where barrows is good

[chilly ruin]

that’s a similar approach to wiki optimal quest guide in theory if u wanted to steal that

[inland cosmos]

the wiki optimal quest guide could really be improved a lot

the way it works now is just placing quests in an order such that the rewards from quests goes towards the reqs for future quests

it doesn't from my understanding take into account what content the quests unlocks to speed up the skilling aspects

I think it is a good direction to go in for this hypothetical boss rush guide

in some capacity

[fickle drum]

I think the best way to actually do it without it boiling down to "do efficient slayer for ages" is essentially curating a decent gear setup and list of stats for toa that lets noobs push up to 300s, & then work backwards and forwards from there

[chilly ruin]

the way it works rn is literally no one manages it and its a mess

[inland cosmos]

ah yeah btw regarding this boss rush guide I feel like it would be interesting to see "lowest gear/stats required" and "recommended gear/stats" for the bosses

[hybrid blaze]

noooo

[chilly ruin]

i think it does do

[fickle drum]

would be kinda hard cuz lowest gear/stats can be rcb/whip/trident with 90+ in every combat stat

[inland cosmos]

ah

[fickle drum]

& that works for p much everything

[inland cosmos]

yeah true

lowest would be hard to measure

[fringe condor]

Just because lv 3s have done fire capes doesn’t mean it’s good

[inland cosmos]

I just feel like if you tell people to get something like piety + 70 herblore before doing moons they will be mad

[opal dagger]

also sounds like a massive headache for maintenance

[fickle drum]

I mean that's just a baseline for playing the game

[opal dagger]

boaty just got piety on his hc through hundreds of moons kc so wcyd

[austere pecan]

Ah yes the subjectivity of whats normal

[fickle drum]

diff on hc

cuz prayer is like 3x slower or whatever

[austere pecan]

You gotta remember people devalue piety cause it uses up prayer

[fickle drum]

yeah but if ur not gonna do herb runs don't play iron

[inland cosmos]

I guess what I mean by saying "lowest gear/stats" is not the actual lowest gear you can defeat the boss with but rather when it is lowest reasonably possible to do it

[fickle drum]

there's rly no way around that

[chilly ruin]

moonlight moth question incomign

[austere pecan]

^

[fickle drum]

yeah if you ever use moonlight moths don't play the gamemode

:p

[chilly ruin]

i completely agree w you zero, moths should be skipped 100% of the time lol, i just think it will be a big pushback

[inland cosmos]

This sort of guide is also perfect imo for directing the better alternatives to moonlight moths

[austere pecan]

But I imagine the population of irons looking for a progression path like this and the population that uses ppots like consumables in a rpg game have some overlap

[fickle drum]

yeah but rly the point is to figure out how to direct ppl who want to chill towards a progression path that enables them to chill

cuz streamer routes or whatever are just fucking around perma with no real recourse if you actually want to play the game

[inland cosmos]

yes exactly

[opal dagger]

I just think people need to budget prayer pots for certain grinds and not feel bad about deleting them when it progresses your account.

[austere pecan]

Of course

But we are trying to cater to those who arent in that mentality

[fickle drum]

like I think the reason why a progression path is desirable is bcuz ppl don't want to dig themselves into a hole

& the avg reddit route is "keep digging deeper"

so the ideal is smth that ppl would want to do that avoids those holes

[inland cosmos]

I also just think people want to feel like they are progressing

[opal dagger]

well people have fallen into the trap of having 10 prayer pots and assume if they don't 1t flick slayer or sit in full prossy and pray melee they will run out.

if you have a guide that budgets those resources it becomes a lot less scary imo

[fickle drum]

maybe smth non-linear could be better

so for example you need 300 ppots for a boss & then you can prog either slayer or agi for that

[opal dagger]

or do farm contracts etc.

[fickle drum]

the slayer feedback loop into farm contracts goes crazy

[austere pecan]

62 farming isnt bad to throw early into a chart

[chilly ruin]

i like that idea, thats actually the kind of thing i was doing guideless to weigh out what to tackle

[austere pecan]

Not a big scary number

[opal dagger]

the guide can recommend methods maybe but at the end of the day if you have a ppots required for the grind, people can have confidence.

[austere pecan]

So what exactly would be in this guide

All boss progression with skilling milestones that help it out?

[inland cosmos]

• quests I guess

[fickle drum]

bosses roughly in order of difficulty is the baseline

[austere pecan]

Quests?

So no skilling necessarily

[fickle drum]

everything else just kinda has to branch from there

[opal dagger]

ye it depends on the goal of what is wanted i guess.

[fickle drum]

this is basically the idea that got me thinking about a noob route

[opal dagger]

I like the idea of having certain grinds with ppot budgets but thats definitely scope creep

[fickle drum]

I think that would be pretty necessary for the target audience

[austere pecan]

I do feel like a all boss prog guide might be a bit bare bones

Think it gets to the point of too little direction there

[fickle drum]

actually another idea that could work would b something like putting all bosses into their own specific difficulty tiers

[austere pecan]

Maybe going non linear into tiers

[inland cosmos]

I agree

[austere pecan]

Yup exactly

[fickle drum]

& then optimizing through those difficulty tiers as if they were self contained

[inland cosmos]

that is an interesting idea

I really like that idea tbh

[austere pecan]

Tiering it out and providing options could give them the options to skip stuff they dont want

While keeping them on a track

[fickle drum]

so smth like the lowest tier could be both archeologists + barrows or whatever

[inland cosmos]

and solo rex I assume

[fickle drum]

and then you could put smth like strange old lockpicks as a req for barrows to direct ppl towards skilling

[somber dagger]

Huey before cg

[fickle drum]

deffo after cuz blood moon

oh

[somber dagger]

I guess if you do moons ye

Heuy is a no-brainer?

[austere pecan]

The issues there becomes people making really bad choices in tiers, cause there is some interconnectedness yknow

You want at least x done from y tier before you do z content

[fickle drum]

I mean that tier would basically just be rcb + steel ring + tank legs

[austere pecan]

Maybe some form of grouping across tiers?

To kind of show common progression paths

[fickle drum]

not many bad choices you can make there realistically

or like w/ sarachnis, you can put that into a tier without giving it a relevant drop

cuz it doesn't have relevant drop

so it would be in like the same tier as moons after finishing moons

but it wouldn't give a drop to progress through that tier

[austere pecan]

Yeah I think it works fairly well for most stuff

But I do like the idea of grouping to show synergies between content

Like tds into yama into delve

Barrows into moons

Etc

[inland cosmos]

I do still wonder about the barrows -> moons pipeline

the main thing people talk about regarding that is just "tank legs"

fighter torso and neiz helmet are just better for moons

[chilly ruin]

rune legs are so doable

[austere pecan]

Sure, but again this is trying to cater to the crowd who want to see barrows into moons

[inland cosmos]

I mean right barrows will be placed before moons

[chilly ruin]

yeah but if youre just gonna cater to them entirely why write a guide at all? could at least shake that up a lil bit

somethins like barrows for miniquest/CAs is diff to barrows for full set grind tho

[fickle drum]

idt the first tier would be used as a pre-req for future tiers

[austere pecan]

Yeah, not saying have the guide say you have to do barrows into moons

[fickle drum]

just as "you can do these things without any gear"

[austere pecan]

But like, maybe just have a note saying "Barrows is commonly done for a set of tank armour before doing moons, but moons can easily be done with x y z"

Give them paths to follow

But dont prescribe a single path

[fickle drum]

what I'm thinking is smth like

you have a boss

you have a checklist of items you want to get before that boss

you have drops you want to get to leave that boss

essentially

[inland cosmos]

that could work

checklist with stats/items/quests for boss

[austere pecan]

Feel that might be scoping up again though

Cause then you are making stricter decisions about what content you do before that and what you want for content after

Like for gear for, what does recommend setup from wiki not accomplish for that

[fickle drum]

this is predicated on the idea that we're sorting bosses into tiers & optimizing the tiers as self-contained projects to work through

[inland cosmos]

hmm

[hybrid blaze]

im behind on the chat but here's my thoughts:

• The greedy-next-boss list still sounds useful to me
• Slayer rush or minimise non-pvm-time are not it
• Resources/big skilling grounds should probably be listed somewhat independently from pvm, with this approach. The target audience cant really be relied upon to manage supplies anyway.
• Still avoid all the trash methods, and the 'recommended gear' for each boss will still be subjective, but I think a progression chart like this could be promising regardless

The nonlinear and tiered approach seems like a bad route to me

to me that quickly devolves into 'call it early game, midgame, lategame, endgame and good luck'

is anybody up for discussing some boss progression if we just try to put together 'how quickly can I get there from here' and disregarding the amount of benefits they give?

[chilly ruin]

id be interested

[austere pecan]

Thats a good starting place regardless, yeah

So, scurrius first yeah? :^)

Or maybe one of the giants?

Safespot rex perhaps

I imagine barrows into moons come after there

[hybrid blaze]

Here are some bosses that stood out to me with very low requirements:

- Giant Mole
- Deranged Archaeologist
- Chaos Fanatic
- Crazy Archaeologist
- Obor
- Bryophyta
- Rex

Then slightly higher requirements:
- Barrows
- Moons of Peril
- Sarachnis
- King Black Dragon(?)
- Calvar'ion & Vet'ion(?)
- Spindel & Venenatis(?)
- Amoxliatl
- Royal Titans
- TzTok-Jad```
And then the rest seems a step up from this. Thoughts?

[austere pecan]

Ah yeah archaeologist

And mole

[hybrid blaze]

Some of these might be so much faster done later that they shouldnt be on this list anyway

but I think stringing these together already answers like 90% of the low level questions

[austere pecan]

Nothing jumps out to me that you are missinng

[hybrid blaze]

im using https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Boss btw

[dusky fog]

Be interested to see how this pans out

[chilly ruin]

i agree rex itself is like trivially easy but i dont know if id rate the setup very low. but in theory it is a super low req boss

[hybrid blaze]

and they are unsorted within the tiers, I just want to break it into smaller chunks

[austere pecan]

Wilderness bosses are pretty low barrier of entry

[fickle drum]

working on a baseline for tiered progression & I think smth like this could be a jumping off point for actually optimizing a route for noobs

[austere pecan]

I might even put wildy bosses into earlier category, or at leats vetion

[hybrid blaze]

yes exactly, good start. Lets merge our lists

[austere pecan]

Or calv

Whichever is the easy one

[hybrid blaze]

and I really think we should have all bosses on there

we can always cut stuff later

[fickle drum]

yeah I just couldn't be assed to think abt them rn

so I just included stuff that has drops

[inland cosmos]

I have been thinking a bit more regarding the "what should you stay for" for each boss

would it be reasonable to include combat achievements?

[fickle drum]

kc CA tasks could actually be a good shout

[inland cosmos]

making the guide an overall combat achievement progression chart as well?

[fickle drum]

so ppl can feel like they're doing every boss

[inland cosmos]

this would also ironically put wintertodt and tempoross on the chart

[fickle drum]

idt general ca progression is useful cuz it depends so heavily on how many friends you have

[inland cosmos]

true

[fickle drum]

but giving each boss at least a goal of "get the kc CA" could b rly nice for ppl to check off if they want to

[austere pecan]

if we are talking about goal items, would it also make sense to add grinds such as zaxe

[inland cosmos]

probably?

I do wonder how you would put slayer items in general on the list

[austere pecan]

yeah, its again a question of scope, like Bruh said he wants to just focus on actual bosses

[hybrid blaze]

Something like this?

1)
- Scurrius
- Giant Mole
- Deranged Archaeologist
- Chaos Fanatic
- Crazy Archaeologist
- Obor
- Bryophyta
- Rex

2)
- Barrows
- Moons of Peril
- Sarachnis
- King Black Dragon
- Calvar'ion & Vet'ion
- Spindel & Venenatis
- Amoxliatl
- Royal Titans
- TzTok-Jad
- Grotesque Guardians

3)
- Sarachnis
- The Hueycoatl
- Corrupted Gauntlet
- Artio & Callisto
- Zulrah
- Vorkath
- General Graardor
- K'ril Tsutsaroth
- Commander Zilyana
- Chaos Elemental
- Phantom Muspah
- Abyssal Sire
- Kraken

4)
- Tombs of Amascut
- Cerberus
- Araxxor
- Dagannoth Kings (tribrid)
- Kree'arra
- Kalphite Queen
- Corporeal Beast
- Scorpia
- Doom of Mokhaiotl
- Phosani's Nightmare
- Yama
- Vardorvis
- The Leviathan
- Duke Sucellus

5)
- The Whisperer
- Alchemical Hydra
- TzKal-Zuk
- Sol Heredit
- Theatre of Blood
- Chambers of Xeric
- Nex```

I still need to backfill some slayer upgrades that arent bosses

[inland cosmos]

you forgot about wintertodt and tempoross /s

[austere pecan]

I feel like CG positioning is gonna be controversial always :^)

[austere pecan]

and gemstone crab!

[hybrid blaze]

I was so tempted to just put CG as the only thing in tier 3

[inland cosmos]

lmao

[austere pecan]

I do think calv in rags could be in the first tier

[fickle drum]

these are the tiers I have rn w/ I think every boss in the game (unordered this time)

[austere pecan]

its what, dmace, monk robes, and like bring/bgloves

[fickle drum]

oh scurrius has the wrong colour

whatevs

[inland cosmos]

and salve amulet

[austere pecan]

yeah yeah

[fickle drum]

I have all the wildy bosses on tier 2 cuz I'm kinda thinking abt them holistically

[hybrid blaze]

barrows is too early imo, even for noobs

[fickle drum]

cuz how do you value d pick here really

[hybrid blaze]

youll at least want flat 70s so you can at least equip the gear

[fickle drum]

elemental weaknesses make it free

[austere pecan]

i agree tbh

people arent gonna wanna deal with prayer drain mechanics and stuff that early

[fickle drum]

I don't rly have an idea for what you're doing barrows for drops wise

[inland cosmos]

I also agree with barrows in tier 2

[fickle drum]

just you can kill this boss with air spells

[hybrid blaze]

noobs do barrows for tank gear

they live in a world where thats important

and veracs for prayer bonus

[inland cosmos]

want tank gear for moons etc

[fickle drum]

everything in tier 0 on my list doesn't have a reason to do

rcb is the closest thing to one

[austere pecan]

Well, if we start heading into reasons to do...

think we lose a bit of the sauce

[hybrid blaze]

yes but barrows does get a bunch better with having at least 70s and not 50s

plus it makes little sense to go there before you can wear items

the whole point was to make a list of progressing to 'reasonable' setups

and I think flat 50s with fire blast isnt that

wait bolt at 50 magic but w/e

[fickle drum]

air bolt*

[hybrid blaze]

and wind yeah

anyway

scurrius is also green tier imo

[austere pecan]

^

[hybrid blaze]

ah

and so is rex

[austere pecan]

agreed

[hybrid blaze]

TDs this early is a problem but lets ignore it

demonics are in a good spot, I'll add them to my list

mimic is w/e I left it off

[fickle drum]

in my ordered list I had rex as the first boss of tier 1

[austere pecan]

yeah yellow tier definitely has some things that feel a bit too far apart

[hybrid blaze]

I like your mole position more than mine

[fickle drum]

and TDs as the 2nd to last in tier 1

[hybrid blaze]

vorkath is too early

oh you just mean 50 kc

[fickle drum]

the 2nd list is unordered bruh

[hybrid blaze]

then its fine

[fickle drum]

it's just alphabetic

[hybrid blaze]

ill move vorkath in my list as well then

[full panther]

Is this the pvm safari progression?

[hybrid blaze]

tourism edition, yep

[fickle drum]

we're workshopping on how to actually make it work

[full panther]

Very cool

[hybrid blaze]

I dont have skotizo but I also dont care

we disagree on the wildy bosses in yellow tier

[full panther]

One guy on reddit had a suggestion for sequencing bosses in what mechanics they teach

[hybrid blaze]

and on kbd

[austere pecan]

I would say TDs, Titans, Demonics, Vork are more similar to eachother than the others in yellow tier

[full panther]

Scurrius, amox, titans, etc

[austere pecan]

havent done huey so they might fit in that group too

[fickle drum]

kbd is just on there for the kc CA

[hybrid blaze]

we are currently going by something else

[full panther]

I liked that one but this discussion is very cool too

Yeye ive noticed its a bit diff

[fickle drum]

wrong reply

[hybrid blaze]

in the next one, your 'tier 2', I dont like that it spans all the way to alch hydra

I think that makes it too wide

I'd cut it off before/at occult

[fickle drum]

it's definitely too broad but I don't like splitting slayer up from an aesthetic pov

[austere pecan]

Amox, Jad, Mole, Sarachnis, Moons, Scorpia, Skotizo, then TDs, Titans, Demonics, Vork, Huey feel like a way you could split that tier into 2

[hybrid blaze]

with that in mind I'd move...
alch hydra, DKs, Kree, Thermy

in my list I actually split it at kraken

no real reason to do that tbh

I dont love hydra before toa

[fickle drum]

yeah I think another thing that we could do is add TOA (early) and COX (early) to serve as a foundation for a tier between 2 and 3 in my chart

[full panther]

is tier a heuristic for clumping in sequence

or difficulty

[austere pecan]

TOA is def worth splitting

[austere pecan]

well, just initial stages

[hybrid blaze]

just clumping

[austere pecan]

to then figure out order

[full panther]

ok

[austere pecan]

so more splits the better

[hybrid blaze]

ultimately itll all be individual tiles or small groups

[austere pecan]

though Zero might be going for an actual tiered list

not sure

[hybrid blaze]

right now we just need to clarify what we mean

[fickle drum]

I'm just trying to figure out how to create a rough heuristic to work from

[full panther]

agreeing on the scope gud

[austere pecan]

sounds good

[hybrid blaze]

I think the second screenshot leaves a bunch to be desired

I prefer my own list slightly more, but my tiers 3+4 are too broad as well and need further splitting

[fickle drum]

2nd screenshot is just alphabetic

[hybrid blaze]

I understand

[fickle drum]

cuz it has every boss in the game

[hybrid blaze]

but your colours are wrong too

[austere pecan]

also, Zaxe in chart?

trident?

[full panther]

in bosses x1, x2, x3, are we maximizing items from x1 can see usage for x2 x3, etc?

[hybrid blaze]

yeah some non-bosses also need to be added

[hybrid blaze]

no

its just a 'what-boss-can-I-get-to-next-in-minimum-time'

theres exactly zero consideration for magnitude of the upgrades

[full panther]

ok cool

[austere pecan]

which effectively boils down to least time to next upgrade right

[fickle drum]

I'm going off the idea that we tier bosses & then optimize the order you do them contained in the tier they're in

[austere pecan]

or, not even necessarily upgrade

but collection log?

[hybrid blaze]

yes, so am I

[fickle drum]

ok cool

[full panther]

ok brb tob, cant wait to read all of this later

[hybrid blaze]

no

[austere pecan]

yeah, cause some of these arent even gonna be giving you something relevant

[fickle drum]

added more granularity lmk if I got all the feedback

[chilly ruin]

there are skilling reqs to actually do it is that matters

[hybrid blaze]

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the list I shared

[fickle drum]

I think we're functionally in agreement here

the only thing I would change is DKs placement

everything else I think is about right

[hybrid blaze]

I think you want occult for dks

[austere pecan]

is it ordered within tiers?

[hybrid blaze]

yes, the colours are the tiers

and within tiers its not sorted

[chilly ruin]

add TDs to middle tier

[austere pecan]

I would want to move titans up a tier

[fickle drum]

yeah you do but I'm mostly thinking in terms of the KC CAs when there aren't relevant drops

bcuz I think that's a good line of reasoning for a safari type of order

[hybrid blaze]

you can do the KC CAs with rex

[austere pecan]

Though I guess im just imagining people wanting to do titans with moons gear

[hybrid blaze]

in fact, thats recommended in BRUHsailer

[fickle drum]

so you do rex + 1?

[hybrid blaze]

I dont think titans fit all the way in the top tier

thats too early

[inland cosmos]

may I ask why scorpia is so high up?

[hybrid blaze]

no sorry, there's a slow solo tribrid method at the stage when you can only handle rex

its after b ring itself

during the 69 slayer grind

[fickle drum]

icic

[hybrid blaze]

you want a mage weapon for it

I was thinking of trident, not ibans

[inland cosmos]

hmm ok

[austere pecan]

I meant the other way, I see titans more on the tier of demonics/TDs

[hybrid blaze]

ahh

theres a tier in between, I think thatd be nice

put it with vorkath and DGs

[austere pecan]

I think we have to discuss how we want to handle CG

[hybrid blaze]

start of the tier for me

[fickle drum]

it's either the last step of a tier or the first step of a tier

[hybrid blaze]

unlocks the rest of the tier

[fickle drum]

there's no real way to do it otherwise

[hybrid blaze]

shall I try a list with this feedback and sorted within a tier next?

[austere pecan]

well, whats our metric for ordering again?

its it requirement based, time based

[hybrid blaze]

'ready for this content, we can get on this now'

requirements based

[inland cosmos]

I would personally also put wintertodt and tempoross in their own tier just because they are classified as bosses and give ca's, but more for the completeness sake

[fickle drum]

for me it's what's a feasible amount of progression to get the KC CAs OR the relevant drops

[austere pecan]

so CG fits in whatever tier you are at base 80's ish

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[fickle drum]

bruh can u DM the text dump of ur list so I can properly compare it against mine

[austere pecan]

I think that gives us a good bit of wiggle room

[hybrid blaze]

im sorting within tiers now

[austere pecan]

Maybe lets discuss tier by tier?

[hybrid blaze]

I can send it after

[fickle drum]

all good

[hybrid blaze]

I have sarachnis in here twice

[inland cosmos]

oh yeah lmao

I missed that

[hybrid blaze]

ill keep the late one

[austere pecan]

yeah, its another dmace level boss

[hybrid blaze]

ah fair enough

[austere pecan]

fits with calv

[hybrid blaze]

early one it is

[fickle drum]

I'd put it in the moons tier personally

[hybrid blaze]

yeah its there now

[austere pecan]

those are all in the same tier 😛

bruh sneaky edited it on me

[fickle drum]

oh yea calv was 1 of the things we disagreed abt

[austere pecan]

bare bones (hehe) calv reqs are pretty simple

the question is if we consider diary as a req

well, of course we need med what am i saying

[hybrid blaze]

New edition with proposed sorting within tiers

[austere pecan]

id move fanatic down one

all the other ones are ibans bosses

and that one you prob want rcb

which youd get from arch

[fickle drum]

you get rcb from arch

[austere pecan]

yeah exactly

[fickle drum]

imo that's the same tier

[austere pecan]

meant down a spot

not a tier

[hybrid blaze]

its the same tier but this one has orders within tiers

[fickle drum]

o

[hybrid blaze]

yeah I moved it down a spot

fwiw I struggled with the orange block aound Yama and Doom the most

but you'll get there

[austere pecan]

I might move moons down to the bottom of the tier its in

[hybrid blaze]

I thought moons before amox made sense, and the rest is wildy bosses where gear might matter

[dire zephyr]

you forgot to put cox ahead of cg

[hybrid blaze]

and sarachnis

[dire zephyr]

they need to do a couple hundred cox before they realise skipping cg was a mistake

[tacit crow]

What do the colors mean here? Difficulty to grind out/get CAs?

[hybrid blaze]

they mean 'please read up'

we're making a pvm safari

[austere pecan]

what gear do you imagine for moons?

[hybrid blaze]

where people look for bosses they can visit, regardless of merit

the colours are a rough division for helping us organise it

[hybrid blaze]

barrows, z axe, ddef, piety

[tacit crow]

I see I didn't go enough up. Saw some talk about CAs and stopped

[hybrid blaze]

oh I have scorpia in the wrong place, moving that down

[austere pecan]

I think thats more reqs than the others in the tier, the other ones seem to all be dmace monk robes raggable

zaxe if you wanna get fancy

[hybrid blaze]

I was assuming z axe as minimum reasonable gear

[austere pecan]

should probably throw zaxe somewhere in that tier around barrows

[hybrid blaze]

I wont be suggesting d mace calv and spindel

or sarachnis

[austere pecan]

yeah

zaxe is reasonable for those

[hybrid blaze]

I'll put z axe before giant mole

[austere pecan]

also ive never done KBD

is it really around there?

always thought it was a step up from those

[hybrid blaze]

you can get rcb kills

wear an antifire shield

hug a corner

[austere pecan]

ok yeah thats not bad

Vork is an interesting one for me there

is this struggle 1-2 kc rcb kills?

[hybrid blaze]

its 50kc for backpack

yes

[austere pecan]

yeah I mean, what else we hitting vork for i guess

[hybrid blaze]

rcb is definitely 1kc trips, not 2

[austere pecan]

what about huey, we thinking macas?

[hybrid blaze]

that was my idea but idk if thats a good one

[austere pecan]

assuming we are also doing moons gear for titans and the other stuff in the tier, I think it probably slots in a bit earlier

but thats another boss i havent touched

just my impression from what ive heard

[full panther]

oh this one is looking sexy

there is building some anticipation onto the bosses in red

[fickle drum]

this is my new take on an ordered list

a couple disagreements w/ the bruh list but around the same

[full panther]

im a little lost on what metric is being optimized still

[fickle drum]

just vibes atm

we're figuring tiers out & then going from there

[austere pecan]

Optimally, least requirements while still being a valid method

IE no rcb/dscim toa even though its possible

Valid being a bit subjective, but hey

[hybrid blaze]

^

The idea is to always greedily minimise the time spent/requirements for the next boss on the list

and just string them together like that

assuming some subjective 'reasonable' setup for each boss

we're completely ignoring how much the bosses help, so its a terribly inefficient list

[fickle drum]

I am working with the idea that you stay at each boss for X amount of time which is either the relevant drop or the highest tier KC Ca

[full panther]

for bosses 1,2,3..,n, are we minimizing t_1+t_2+...+t_n ?

is that wrong interpretation of time spent

[fickle drum]

so optimizing for just killing each boss for a bit basically

[hybrid blaze]

yes, thats wrong

we are not minimising anything

its just greedily at each point saying "what is the fastest one I can go to from here"

and even then not quite

[full panther]

i imagine not physically on the map

[hybrid blaze]

if you start optimising you cant justify including like half the crap on this list

actually more

[full panther]

im so lost hahah

its vibes all the way to the bottom?

[hybrid blaze]

no

[full panther]

as in you start somewhere, and which one is the next one you could hit up in the account?

least fuckery to just do it somehow?

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[full panther]

okok i understand now

[hybrid blaze]

@austere pecan any more thoughts?

I was mostly worried about everything starting around ToA

though maybe the target audience wont get there so its fine

[opal dagger]

are dks really in the same group as hydra

[austere pecan]

Tribrid definitely feels like it could be done way earlier

[hybrid blaze]

You really want occult for that

or they overlap every rotation

so its post araxxor

[austere pecan]

Hmmmmmmmm

It feels wrong off a gut reaction for it be that far in

Off of slayer just being slow

[opal dagger]

It just feels like the odd one out to me. If occult is truly required then so be it.

[austere pecan]

Well, the section before seems fine at least

Zulrah might be able to be moved around a bit tho

[opal dagger]

only weird one to me in 3 is scorpia but I guess you need slayer for it so that makes sense

[austere pecan]

Having hit CG a lot of that stuff feels like "well, this is a thing now"

So order seems a bit arbitrary

[hybrid blaze]

scorpia and tribrid dks are in that position because thats where mage gear really picks up

but you could move them earlier

[austere pecan]

For ToA, why is it so far down I think is a fair question

[hybrid blaze]

in particular with eye of ayak

[austere pecan]

Is it just trident?

[hybrid blaze]

no, its not really for any reason. Could be right after K'ril imo

but its more difficult

and this is not efficient but more vibes based about whats reasonable

I'll move scorpia and tribrid dks to after doom

[austere pecan]

Yeah, that section feels hard

It really is so wide open with just a couple of bosses done from previous sections

[opal dagger]

its really just do cg and the game opens up

[austere pecan]

You effectively have reqs for most of them done at once

[hybrid blaze]

thats the previous segment

[austere pecan]

Like, we could throw yama and doom right after TDs

[fickle drum]

this is basically the idea I'm working with

as a foundation for a checklist

[austere pecan]

Definitely harder content tho

[hybrid blaze]

doom so late has quite an impact

[opal dagger]

Doom being so late is only true if you're doing deep delves. You can be a 1-7 enjoyer right as you get a scobow

[hybrid blaze]

also phosanis and corp so late dont really make sense to me

the reqs for those are pretty low

[fickle drum]

they're scary is the idea

[hybrid blaze]

chicken corp isnt scary

idk im happy with my list for now, definitely not perfect

[fickle drum]

ig but I'm optimizing that around a longer grind

[opal dagger]

hardest req for corp is con/da4 and the spec weapons

[fickle drum]

just safarimaxxing it

[lunar lodge]

Honestly if you can do 7 you can do 8+

[hybrid blaze]

new guide logo just dropped

[lunar lodge]

No need to hamstring yourself on 1-7.

[austere pecan]

Right now im just imagining the argument of "eye of ayak is a bowfa skip, why is it so much later than CG"

[hybrid blaze]

someone has been huffing a little bit too much gnomonkey again I see

[opal dagger]

nonsense. you just do cox for 10 kc and get a tbow to skip bowfa

[austere pecan]

Is gnomonkey viewers not our target audience here? :^)

[hybrid blaze]

in all seriousness I think this list looks solid and can help people figure out what content they might explore

[austere pecan]

Oh wait we already did moons forever ago

[inland cosmos]

politely but firmly tell them to leave /s

[austere pecan]

Bowfa already skipped

[fickle drum]

my goal is to save ppl from being gnomonkey viewers

[hybrid blaze]

just make sure nobody thinks its actually good

[lunar lodge]

In the same breath as Gnomonkey says "This is a Bowfa skip" he will say "Just get a scythe"

He just wants to say trigger phrases to make people clickbait his content.

[fickle drum]

I want to make a list that's good enough for ppl who are stuck on the idea that they want to collect bosses like pokemon

so I'm optimizing for good enough

[austere pecan]

I think I agree with this TBH

If we have the early sections reasonably well done

[hybrid blaze]

I really think it's incompatible to say that you're optimising for something with a list like this

[austere pecan]

Thats mostly good enough

[hybrid blaze]

its really just a dementia approach to pvm

no planning ahead, just 'what can I do in the next two days'

and then forget and start over

[inland cosmos]

to be fair that is what most people seem to want

[hybrid blaze]

yes exactly

[opal dagger]

head empty. click boss

[hybrid blaze]

but its not optimizing for shit

[fickle drum]

I mean the entire thing I'm going for is vibes based organizing tiers & then optimizing the boss order within any given tier

with the assumption that you have to do all of them or you die in real life

[hybrid blaze]

to me the tiers really are just decision aides

they dont mean anything

aides for us, making the list

[fickle drum]

yeah I'm aware but the entire point of tiers for me was to create some way to optimize a fundamentally stupid goal

bcuz u can optimize for stupid goals

[hybrid blaze]

to me this list is potentially useful, has a high chance of becoming popular, but if you add words like 'optimized' to it you would be misleading your audience

its like the 'optimal quest list' on the wiki

[fickle drum]

I mean the metric by which I make a list isn't super relevant

[inland cosmos]

what would be a good term that is not missleading to discribe the guide then?

[fickle drum]

I just want there to be a good way to reach a bad goal

[opal dagger]

"One of the guides of all time"

[hybrid blaze]

Just call it the PVM Safari Chart

slap on the mirrored safari logo to avoid copyright

[inland cosmos]

I just wonder if calling it safari would discourage some people

[fickle drum]

the bad goal exists independently of me & is very prevalent

[inland cosmos]

who want to believe it is an efficiency guide

[fickle drum]

so I want to make smth that would be good for ppl who have that goal independently of me

[hybrid blaze]

I think you're seeing purpose where instead there's randomness

and optimising here doesnt actually help people

[opal dagger]

if they want an efficient guide you just point them to ladlor/bruhsailor.

[fickle drum]

I don't think the goal of "make an ironman to kill every boss starting with the easy ones" is randomness

[inland cosmos]

sure

I just think if you call it something like "safari chart" some people will think you are not taking them seriously

[hybrid blaze]

I dont think people have this goal at all

[fickle drum]

I think people act as if they have this goal

[hybrid blaze]

and if you did care about this, youd do ladlor then some victory laps after endgame

[fickle drum]

whether or not they would describe it in those terms is particularly relevant

[fickle drum]

I mean the operative part is "starting with the easy ones"

[hybrid blaze]

if people actually care about that goal, giving them this list is doing them a disservice

[opal dagger]

PvM Exploration Chart maybe.

[hybrid blaze]

and to me its important that the list is labeled as that disservice

[inland cosmos]

not bad

[austere pecan]

Really, people just want a list that approves their choices while avoiding being bottlenecked in a pain point

[fickle drum]

.

yeah exactly

[hybrid blaze]

no, thats the opposite of what you're saying

you have a specific goal in mind, and now falsely claim to optimise for it

[fickle drum]

falsely?

[hybrid blaze]

the people I have in mind dont have such a goal, they just do stuff as it flies by

and want a list that tells them that actually they are 210iq geniuses for doing it that way

I think its good to help people find their way through pvm, but bad to trick them into thinking its optimised for anything at all

[fickle drum]

you can optimize for literally any goal as long as there's a goal

[austere pecan]

Sure, I think there is some pedantry here about the word optimized

But really its the optics

[fickle drum]

yeah I wouldn't call this list "the optimized pvm list" or whatever

[austere pecan]

You throw the word optimized in there, and people will run with the connotation

[inland cosmos]

I liked this name

[fickle drum]

but the idea is to make smth that ppl can follow if they have a bad goal that doesn't fuck them

the solve is to get a good goal instead of a bad goal

but I disagree that people don't have a goal

[austere pecan]

I think throwing in a Blurb under the title of said chart, describing the purpose of the chart in a positive way without misleading people would be good

[opal dagger]

Or a short preamble

[austere pecan]

Focusing on exploration and availability sounds like a good way to approach it

[fickle drum]

yeah if I were to describe the chart once it's finished it'd be something like "here's an order of bosses that lets you kill every boss in the game while chilling & progressing your account"

or whatever

[hybrid blaze]

I'd be more explicit about how this was constructed

[fickle drum]

that would go into a hypothetical faq or whatever

[hybrid blaze]

"This is a list of pvm challenges that you can take on throughout your progression, sorted by approximate recommended gear and stats. The main purpose is to give people an idea what PVM they might look into during their journey, regardless of efficiency."

[austere pecan]

"This chart was constructed in order to give you an idea of what content may be available to you at your point of progression, and give you an idea of next steps to take to progress further"

[hybrid blaze]

To me that second half is misleading

well, a little

[austere pecan]

Maybe not necessarily progress

But next steps for sure

[hybrid blaze]

like 60% of the shit on this list does nothing or almost nothing for account progression

[fickle drum]

maybe to feel comfortable going into the next part of your journey

or smth like that

[austere pecan]

Next steps to take to explore the game?

[hybrid blaze]

I would just state that its stuff you can do

without claiming that we have some grand plan that you should do it

[fickle drum]

my line of thought is mostly that ppl do this shit anyway & post on reddit & get stuck doing twinflame staff zulrah or whatever

[inland cosmos]

I mean that is still their choice

[hybrid blaze]

nothing stops people from taking inspiration from this list

but im really hesitant around saying things like "this is a good order to do this in"

or "this order will help you in progressing your account"

[fickle drum]

I specifically want a good order for a bad goal

the key point for me is that the problem is the goal & that can't be solved

[hybrid blaze]

yes, you've been stuck on that for a while now. Its not going to happen

[inland cosmos]

would something like "give you an idea of one way to how you could progress your account" also be misleading in this case?

[fickle drum]

yes

[hybrid blaze]

to me, yes

[inland cosmos]

hmm

[fickle drum]

cuz this isn't tied to acc prog, it's tied to wanting to click lots of different bosses

[inland cosmos]

ok

[hybrid blaze]

id just state "as you progress, you can do these"

to me thats about the full extent of the link between progress and this bossing list that I feel comfortable with

[opal dagger]

maybe ideas for future goals?

[fickle drum]

idk to me it's futile to tell people to do the harder bosses first or to skip bosses entirely

if they won't listen to those things, they should have something to refer to so they don't end up doing gnomonkey tier shit on their acc and get stuck at fletchingtodt for atlatl darts

[opal dagger]

i mean i don't see how this guide prevents that

[fickle drum]

cuz it's not gonna include methods where u atlatl shit forever

[hybrid blaze]

im happy with the version I have so far and the interpretation of it alongside it

I think zero wants something sufficiently different that I'm not sure we're looking for the same kind of chart

[fickle drum]

I think we want a roughly similar chart for different reasons

[austere pecan]

I think zero is being a bit realistic in that people want someone telling them its a good idea/progress/"optimized"

[plain ice]

Shooting from the sideline: where ladlor/bruhsailer is optimized for efficiency with delayed gratification it seems to me this would be optimized for quick gratification for those who won’t last through a 6 month grind be it stubbornness or lack of active hours to play the game. Yes it’s inefficient but for the target audience that is not a important

[hybrid blaze]

Nah I think that's quite wrong

[inland cosmos]

this is why I disliked the initial safari title

[hybrid blaze]

doing bad methods makes it take longer to get rewards, not shorter

[fickle drum]

I'm mostly thinking abt how to get ppl who really want novelty the ability to get that novelty while telling them to eat their vegetables

[hybrid blaze]

if you cant play much, and dont have much time, its all the more valuable to plan ahead

this really is the do-not-think-ahead chart to me

[hybrid blaze]

I understand that people want to hear that, I just think it's false

[fickle drum]

"you can progress like this and do all the things you want to do BUT you're also going to do content that's good for your account instead of atlatl + moonlight moths"

is the gist of what I'm going for

[austere pecan]

Yeah, im not saying we should cater to it directly

[hybrid blaze]

im going to take a break here, I think we're going in circles

zero good luck with your list

[fickle drum]

I mean if ppl think the amnesia theory is correct I'm leaving it to you

I just personally don't rly see it

[plain ice]

Sure, but that matters little if that means they never reach content they find fun due to playing macroefficient

[austere pecan]

I think you should work on what you are working on and see what it ends up looking like zero

[inland cosmos]

I think its reasonable to go in two different directions here

up to you guys how you decide to do the chart

[austere pecan]

Progress by iteration is always fun

No need to do it perfect off the bat

[fickle drum]

yeah but if no one actually has a goal & everyone logs in and forgets what they did yesterday, it's pretty pointless to tell them to do their herb runs so they can get the huey staff

cuz the idea is that ppl fundamentally just want to get the huey staff at the earliest point they can kinda kill huey

[full panther]

this is a bit disingenuous, but you could just call it a pvm chart and make zero claims on it being efficient

[lusty dust]

idk i feel like the sentiment that i see from people is they want to get to the "fun" pvm as fast as possible and minimal chores, camping a boss in suboptimal gear for twice the amount of time doesnt seem like what most people want to do tbh Edit: if they dont consider it "fun"

[full panther]

and it could be (falsely) implied

and if people question it, thats when u answer truthfully

[fickle drum]

the answer in that case is to make a main

[opal dagger]

The amount of mental gymnastics we gotta do to make a non efficient guide is ironic.

[fickle drum]

unless by fun pvm you exclusively mean tob

[full panther]

usually some chart or visualization has some structural aim

so if u are abandoning those it gets messy real quick

[fickle drum]

ladlor did u see what I described as my aim

[full panther]

i saw waht bruh described

im not sure if it overlaps and/or coincides with ur goal

[fickle drum]

this is basically what I'm going for

[full panther]

lmk if u want some help with putting up an interactive version

[fickle drum]

still lots of work to be done if this is smth ppl think would be useful

[austere pecan]

I think this works at a base level with what bruh aims for

But I do think you are scoping a bit past it

Which isnt bad

But having a comprehensive goal is good

[fickle drum]

the diff is that I think ppl will want to get to the end of a tier relatively efficiently, while bruh thinks they want to just see where they're at in any given tier

[lusty dust]

i mean yeah if you dont want to do the chores, dont play an iron. was more just trying to say that i dont see the "i want to do as much random pvm content as possible somewhat efficiently" sentiment/goal that you see.

[fickle drum]

that's my best guess at an explanation why ppl want bandos gear/moons/huey/early fire cape/etc on the chart so bad

[lusty dust]

they want that because that is the subjective "fun" content

[fickle drum]

I think there's a pretty specific attitude that people want to do the content that is made for an account of roughly their progression

[tall lark]

i think its because u guys are coming at it with the wrong mentality
all people are looking for is more guides and and progression paths that aren't constrained to EHP/maxing playstyle that the current chart is. like closer to how a lot of HCIM play their accounts (no reason to max skills if ur doing risky content)

theres certainly a grey area for guides between EHP and just straight random/trolling

[opal dagger]

so they want an efficient path without efficient methods?

[austere pecan]

Well, as you can see, the entire reason about all this discussion is the difficulty on agreeing what the basis for something like that should be

[fickle drum]

yeah and that grey area is filled with a lot of bad guides and moonlight moths and not sipping ppots

[austere pecan]

Max eff is easy, its least time used to goal

Very mathable

[tall lark]

not necessarily your definition of efficient, but a good progression to improve skills/raise difficulty/get gear.

[austere pecan]

Aiming for those in betweens ends up being a personal suggestion a lot of the time

Break that down into concrete methods and we could mull over the idea

Define get gear, raise difficulty, etc

[opal dagger]

This is why people would latch on to a popular name when they are looking for a guide. Best example being the boaty guide imo

[fickle drum]

what I'm thinking of is basically the kind of player who watches this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpPJY-xdA3M and goes like this is literally me

kinda going with the attitude that runescape really is a game of keys and gates all the way down and running with it

[tall lark]

personal suggestion is fine, a guide is made for guiding. a guide doesnt have to be based on complete math

[fickle drum]

and making ppl who have that sentiment some type of guide so they can keep their sentiment & also not get stuck in horrendous bottlenecks

[austere pecan]

Alright, my personal suggestion is ladlor :^)

People just disagree with my suggestion, smh

[tall lark]

and thats fine, but again its then also completely understandable that many people are looking for other guides

[dusky fog]

Has blowpipe before doom been discussed here? It trivializes the waves. I understand there is apparently a decent time save using eye over bowfa at zulrah but getting unearthen orb W5+ with scobo no blowpipe is kind of shitty tbh.

[tall lark]

different people want different guides

[fickle drum]

yes, but today is the "figuring out how to make a guide for noobs that want to do noob stuff" day

[austere pecan]

TBH this entire discussion should probably be another thread, we are kinda off topic rn

[opal dagger]

At what point do you just brute force a guide by randomly making an order until one gets traction on reddit.

[austere pecan]

^

[tall lark]

see this is what i mean i think u guys are going about this with the wrong mentality, "if its not efficient/math, its not worth making a guide on"

which is fine

[austere pecan]

But the issue is thats not our mentality

[fickle drum]

I'm saying you can do math even with restrictions on what options are available

[tall lark]

just means u probably should just let some redditor or youtuber make the guide instead

[opal dagger]

Its not that the guide isn't worth making, its just confusing to make

[fickle drum]

the problem is figuring out what options are available

[austere pecan]

We would like to make a guide that makes everyone happy

That serves a concrete goal

The how is not a trivial problem

[dusky fog]

lol, what’s the TLDR version?

[austere pecan]

Anyone can throw together a progression chart based on vibes

[fickle drum]

we need to put a noob into a test tube and observe how they play the game bcuz we can't agree on it

[austere pecan]

But doing it in a satisfactory way that has reason behind it is harder

[opal dagger]

yeah but the time save is not worth it mathematically.

[austere pecan]

Could I make a reddit vibe prog chart? Yeah probably easy

[dusky fog]

Wdym

[austere pecan]

Could I then make it not have the same issues as ladlor has where people argue over every choice? Not as easy

[lusty dust]

i feel like the best option is telling people to do like chapter 1ish of bruhsailer, minus the super long grinds/maxing efficieny goals and then just saying this is kinda where you are, these are some options that arent neccisarily good/efficient, if you want efficieny finish the guide, otherwise the game is yours to play.

[opal dagger]

The time save at zulrah is so great that it isn't worth getting bp for doom. TLdr its kind of just a get good angle.

[dusky fog]

Yeah I figured

[fickle drum]

The more important thing for me is, could we make people accidentally progress their account better than they otherwise would if they were to listen to gnomonkey or whatever

[dusky fog]

Someone said it was like 5 hour time save

[inland cosmos]

I think what a lot of people are looking for is short term efficiency with subjectively fun content included

[austere pecan]

TBH just put 62 farming near the beginning of the guide and youll solve most issues

[fickle drum]

I think we all agree on that just not on whether the short term is 1 day or 2 weeks

I'm optimizing for 2 weeks

[dusky fog]

I feel like only objective advice has to be based on efficiency, then someone should downgrade accordingly if they want to do inefficient things for fun or for less sweaty gaming… but they should be made aware of how much less efficient their path is compared to optimal. As long as they’re aware of how much they may be trolling, that’s on them.

[craggy granite]

i think that putting major tiers based on gear for combat achievements from bosses and go through that till elite CA's are approximately done

could be worth

[opal dagger]

That's why ladlor/bruhsailor is valuable to people even if it's not followed to the letter. Knowing how much worse their option is takes a lot of effort to explain.

[dusky fog]

For instance, I’m now aware that blowpipe before doom is kind of trolling, but I’m not super skillful and I want the more relaxed grinding on doom so I’m going to grab blowpipe first 🙂

[craggy granite]

so you have a list of which bosses you could efficiently do depending on certain key gear unlocks

[austere pecan]

Well, We could focus on the pain points mostly. Obvious pain points from efficient progress are larger chunks of skilling early (probably never want to recommend more than x days of skilling in a row) and gear that doesnt follow a staircase progression pattern (people like to get incremental upgrades)

[craggy granite]

I thought I saw some people say that blowpipe to get 100% uptime is its own type of challenge?

[dusky fog]

Yep it does. It’s kind of on the player to care enough to ask and find out how much they may be trolling

[craggy granite]

and scobow is good enough for the most part

at least that's what i read in the doom channel

[austere pecan]

If we arent focusing on skilling, then we really just have to solve for incremental upgrades

Getting the next upgrade where its reasonably possible to achieve it

Regardless of if it's a time save or not

[fickle drum]

yeah my idea from the jump has been basically get people gear upgrades from easier content before they go into harder content

[opal dagger]

imo optimizing for hard diaries, quest cape and pvm progression will get you 95% of the way there.

maxing is the fat of bruhsailor for casuals imo.

[dusky fog]

Possibly. My brother is doing like 15+ consistently now. Said switching to blowpipe has allowed him to skip unearthen orb phase pretty consistently and made the whole caves easier. Tbf though he is sweaty and was doing 9+ without it fairly consistently before

[inland cosmos]

maxing is one of the big things that people get turned off from

people dont want to do the 98 agility step

because they dont value the agility xp

[opal dagger]

same with the 99 thieving of old and the fishing grinds

[craggy granite]

i think that ironman access to wrath runes and prioritizing that early is something I didn't consider before the guide

[austere pecan]

Well, theres the question of scope

Is this PvM

Or Skilling

Or both

[inland cosmos]

you need some skilling to unlock the pvm

I think is the main part

[fickle drum]

my idea has been PvM with skilling as requirements for the next boss whenever necessary

[dusky fog]

Also I do have some experience, just got my treads yesterday 😄 so I’m also basing this off my own ability at the boss. The sidewalk method makes blowpipe uptime pretty easy. It’s the damn orb phase with flicking the boulder explosions that I feel is the most difficult

[austere pecan]

But will the guide/chart cover it

Will it recommend methods?

[craggy granite]

(un)fortunately i haven't touched the content yet with my main and i'm still bowfa locked

[dusky fog]

The red prison prevails

[craggy granite]

I think that tiering pvm bosses based on gear and using that as the guidelines for elite diary even w/o specific tasks

would be practical

[opal dagger]

elite diary adds in super long grinds early if done efficiently is the problem imo

[craggy granite]

the wiki CA completion rate i don't think has an ironman mode there, and I think that there is certain gear that's much more available for mains

[fickle drum]

the idea I have is essentially have a step where you need ppots for a boss & then go like you can get ppots by doing sepulchre and farming contracts or by doing slayer (USE PPOTS WHILE DOING SLAYER)

[opal dagger]

hard diary seems like a good trade off for efficiency and unlocks

[craggy granite]

like blowpipe, etc.

[lusty dust]

the problem with that is you need to have been doing farming contracts for a while to have a good buffer of pots and sepulchre isnt worth it for just the rewards if you dont value agility xp

[opal dagger]

isn't the problem with sep is that the loot is bad until floor 4 and only good at floor 5

[dusky fog]

Hard diary wasn’t too much of a detour tbh. Elite seems like quite a bit of grinding before getting into slayer

[fickle drum]

yeah but you want some amount of agi for shortcuts eventually

[dusky fog]

Ya the loots really good on 5. Pretty much at that point your acquisition of alchables exceeds the rate at which you can alch. Really nice for magic exp pre CG

[opal dagger]

past 76 idk how many people thug out the rest of the agi lvls

[fickle drum]

surely get 85 for dks

[dusky fog]

I think I jsut watched a bunch of Hell’s Kitchen on way to 98 agility 😂

Was a fun period of time looking back

[opal dagger]

agreed but how many casuals do you know have 85 agi

[fickle drum]

idk what the definition of a casual is

[opal dagger]

just disguise the 76 agi grind as the graceful grind and call it good

[fickle drum]

cuz if it's ppl who'd never get 85 agi it's 0

[hollow cobalt]

how much dks do you think people are doing?

[dusky fog]

Really only need the berserker ring

Earlier on in account anyways

[fickle drum]

it's a p good slayer task

[dusky fog]

Maybe go back for some CAs for hard

I went back because clam mates wanted to do some. They let me kill the ones I needed ring by myself

[hollow cobalt]

How many times can you run to dks in the time it would take to get 85 agi? 1000?

[dusky fog]

Early on

[opal dagger]

Yeah shortcuts have really low ev if you don’t value the agi xp

[dusky fog]

The agility shortcut was really really nice ngl 🤣

[lusty dust]

i think 1000 is lowballing it tbh, especially if you only do rooftops

[dusky fog]

Not worth grinding exclusively for though

But should get the agility anyways for the abundant ppots, gp, and magic exp it gives imo

Even some fletch prep which idk how much that matters now with the new minigame

Is minigame worth over broad arrows now?

[inland cosmos]

no

[dusky fog]

Ah alright oh well

[fickle drum]

the ppl I know value shortcuts even if they don't save time cuz they want more unlocks

[dusky fog]

I already got all my headless arrows made for 99 anyways, and 92 fletch 😎

[fickle drum]

might be sampling bias on what casuals would even talk to me 🤷

[inland cosmos]

the fletching minigame is never more efficient than broad arrows, doesn't stop it from being fun to do

[lusty dust]

who are you trying to make this guide for zero? completley new players who want to play iron? more experienced players with mains that dont plan an maxing an iron and just want to do pvm? people who want to pvm with little to no skilling?

[dusky fog]

Are any of the rewards worth grabbing?

[hollow cobalt]

If you include 85 agi for casual weed pvm andys you have completely lost the plot

[inland cosmos]

fletching knife is not bad, but is probably not worth the time investement. The rest is useless

[fickle drum]

noted

[dusky fog]

What about two guides? A super efficient guide and then a best guess noob enjoyment guide 🤣

Minimizing the crazy trolling

[fickle drum]

the type of casual I know who plays a couple hours after work sometimes and likes doing a wide variety of content and seeing their dude get more items

[inland cosmos]

thats basically what this pvm chart aims to accomplish

its for sure good, but I cant see doing maple fletching minigame for it be efficient ever

[dusky fog]

The new proposed idea one?

[fickle drum]

that might not be a representative sample of a casual which is what we're trying to figure out rn

[inland cosmos]

the one people here have been discussing

[dusky fog]

all makes sense now

So basically we got to find a legit casual noob

I know a guy 😮

He just doesn’t know he fits the description

[lusty dust]

i think any guide for that player is just going to boil down to get farming to 62 asap, do your contracts/herb runs when you can, and then look at the list bruh made and do what you feel like.

[inland cosmos]

you are not wrong

It would be very much similar to that

[fickle drum]

I feel like there should be checkboxes involved cuz they love checkboxes

[craggy granite]

isn't that pvm for the most part

[chilly ruin]

im back whats the zero chart update

[craggy granite]

do your contracts so you have pvm resources

[austere pecan]

We went back to discussing goals

[fickle drum]

we're discussing philosophy before next steps

[dusky fog]

Good good, someone write that down

[austere pecan]

So we have regressed

:^)

[inland cosmos]

I will return later, gl lads

[craggy granite]

can you summarize the goal?

[fickle drum]

this is my current iteration

[fickle drum]

that's been the contention

[dusky fog]

Basically make a casual progression chart for people who don’t want to do all the efficient stuff, while minimizing how troll it is

[lusty dust]

the goal of the chart/guide is so nebulous, cause it needs to fit so many different types of players. like some of those "Casuals" will be fine if you say you need to do battlestaves for gp for 10hours, but others want to look at any other way to get gp. how can you have checkboxes for all those people

[fickle drum]

creating a guide that compartmentalizes account goals into short term chunks

[austere pecan]

I think I have a few ideas of potential ways to go with this idea, ima try and put together some mock ups in the next couple of days

[craggy granite]

I think that Barrows being before Titans & Bowfa is a bit wild, mostly because even noobs should have at the very least the new Titans Staff for barrows

[lusty dust]

it really is just get to medium contracts, dont slack on herb runs, look at this chart do what you enjoy.

[dusky fog]

Back to zulrah! Gl fellas

[quiet schooner]

those people will do wahtever they want to comvince themselves skilling is bad barrows rush is good moons rush afterwards is good and cg is the end all be all of evil end game grinds

[craggy granite]

completing Moons with zombie axe and before bandos or other gear, I think shouldn't be the thing either, I think just writing it as CAs

[quiet schooner]

its so pointless just dont bother w ith it

[fickle drum]

I think it's hopeful

[craggy granite]

barrows CAs tho seems good, but at some point you need a full set for diary is the main thought

[chilly ruin]

i think i actually like this. short term gain without considering long term loss. i can see this being something ppl feel is more approachable

[quiet schooner]

surely post shadow/eye

moons is literally one of the most boring pieces of content in the game

[fickle drum]

yeah the disagreement is how much we need to minimize long term loss

cuz my take is we should do it a bit

and yet ppl will do 10 hours of moons cuz it's easy instead of doing 3 hours of cg

[quiet schooner]

if people do not wanna learn content they will just do whatever they want anyways tell them to just do what they wanna do

[craggy granite]

tier 0 can be done with whatever, right?
tier 1 i assume is pre-bowfa, zombie axe melee
tier 2 is getting bowfa, wrath runes and arclight?
tier 3 is using bowfa and unlocking demonbane & pre-90 slayer?
tier 4 is hasta & whip & fang gaming?

[lusty dust]

i mean what is long term loss in this sense? time? i think if the goal is for people to do stuff they enjoy, you shouldnt consider time a loss in that case.

[fickle drum]

p much

[quiet schooner]

cg rush is just good because ur thrown head first into the hyperbolic time chamber

[fickle drum]

t2 is legit harder imo

[quiet schooner]

u will come out a better pvmer afterwards

cannot say the same shit about moons and barrows

[fickle drum]

ppl want to be bad pvmers for as long as possible

[craggy granite]

i think that moons gives a fairly chill way for people to get fairly meaningful gear progress without having to turn on their brains too much, which is good to exist

[quiet schooner]

optimizing prep is a very big skillset too

people overlook it

and its not irrelevant

[craggy granite]

the worst part about optimizing prep is that the best prep is higher stats 😦

[quiet schooner]

its the same skillset u use in cox and cms

[craggy granite]

if i could do 12 fish cg with my stats with enough completion rate

I'd be much happier

but that's kind of just part of the game

[chilly ruin]

agree and i think "do shit pvm but limit the time you do it" is probably advice that is most likely to capture avg moonlight moth reddit commenter

[fickle drum]

& if you sequence bad sequence bad with a purpose

[chilly ruin]

i dont think theres going to be a way to capture this w any kind of formal logic

maybe there is, idk, but it seems like a harm reduction deal almost lol

[fickle drum]

it's 100% harm reduction

[vague tusk]

imo the best interpretation of reddit goals are just constraints on the ladlor route. something like:

• ehp ceilings on getting barrows gloves, quest cape (so barb fishing to skip rooftops and 92+ sep for sote cash/early slayer ppots are more or less out, too slow at hitting those milestones even if they make up some time in the long run)
• megarares don't exist, and neither do ancestral/justicar/masori sets since completing them is just as rare (means assuming you're going to do them delaying huey/moons/sarachnis/sire/ggs/muspah/levi/whisp/zilyana/kree isn't as appealing compared to sending them a lot sooner for what meager rewards you do get from them)

those constraints still allow you to keep the overriding logic

the zero list is a good idea, i just don't think it's quite what they're shooting for

[quiet schooner]

Reddit progression is also like any tiny upgrade (+5 magic attack) is "new bis" and worth pursuing

It's just inane making any sort of progression they will be happy with

[fickle drum]

I've had to make worse progression for a dumber player (me)

[fickle drum]

idk how legible this is but if any1 wants to give me a quick sanity check here's a mockup of routing for the moons tier (items marked in red denote being vital for acc progression)

[radiant pelican]

@fickle drum why put CA goal for others but not moons or jad? Is CA goal just kc CAs?

[woven nova]

i think it’s probably okay

moles just there to be there right

honestly if u made a spreadsheets with a bosses tab account unlocks tab and skilling milestones tabs that would prob go crazy

idk how u would separate the info, i can imagine someone looking at this and getting their fighter torso right before moons instead of like before b ring

[fickle drum]

just to have smth for bosses that don't have drops

[woven nova]

lowkey BA could have its own section with granite body and torso cuz you’d want it for rex anyways, but then ur getting into gear recommendations also and stuff idk

i guess u already have the gear column

but it’s not a boss

[fickle drum]

yeah I don't rly know the strats but everything can be rearranged easily

[woven nova]

yea

i think somehow merging account unlocks/bosses/skilling milestones into something that can be followed chronologically would be cool

u miss out on a lot of info if u just look at bosses, and it doesn’t have to be super strict

but i know the original idea was just to next boss

[fickle drum]

this is just to respond to redditors who want to do moons etc & also want a guide p much

[woven nova]

yeah i understand

i think it’s fine the way it is then

[chrome wolf]

how meaningful is the magic xp from doing alchs at sepulchre to 98 agi?

I just started sending cg but I'm wondering if I should backtrack to do sepulchre first or if its fine for me to do both simultaneously

[woven nova]

it’s mainly so u have access to ice barrage and sbs

[chrome wolf]

sbs?

[chilly ruin]

magic lvl not very important for cg fortunately so dont have to do it for that specifically

[woven nova]

spellbook swap at 96 mage

92 with boost

[chrome wolf]

oooh

makes sense, rn I'm only sitting at 86 magic

what's the main use for sbs?

[woven nova]

a lot of random stuff

[west nexus]

zmi/zulrah

[woven nova]

herb runs some skilling methods

[west nexus]

few other things

[woven nova]

some pvm

[west nexus]

good for clues too

[errant pivot]

This is why my current favorite go-to suggestion for those that hate cg is to stick to a daily/session kc quota, and outside of that you work on non-bowfa related grinds (slayer, crafting, etc). This includes getting atlatl for TDs, as most want to do it anyways and you can do TDs through Doom all while working on the bowfa on the side and come out in pretty good shape for raids

Also I love characterizing this as harm reduction lmao

[craggy granite]

at some point during bowfa grind i started cashing in, and I probably should hear more about doing that and a reminder that you'll want 82 smithing for making bowfa

and at least 83 for lumby elite

[errant pivot]

Yeah for sure

[drowsy ore]

You’d be doing magic and melee in this scenario at early td

[errant pivot]

Is non-purging demonbane that close to atlatl? Especially during defenseless

I like atlatl for a lot of reasons when it comes to causal-tier progression anyways but it feels very good at tds so that's a big one

[drowsy ore]

Non purge staff spells are better than bowfa

It’s just not free like bowfa is

[errant pivot]

Yeah fair point. Either way you're likely utilizing moons gear but definitely not necessary if it's content you dislike

With or without, tds onward in parallel with cg feels quite good

[drowsy ore]

The funny thing is blue moon staff is good at moons since it can autocast arceuss spells, so moons is still getting value. Atlatl is decent at demonic gorillas though

[formal quartz]

Personally I would strongly recommend using demonbane for TDs if you don't have a bofa or scobo. I know people complain about the rune costs but honestly I didn't find it any more draining than abby demon SBS barraging or other high-rune cost tasks, and it feels much more consistent/good on the kills, especially if you don't have a ballista. If you want to minimize swaps you can use blue moon instead of eclipse.

[slate dome]

Not sure if barraging abby demons is a fair comparison though

Barraging abby demons is a huge increase from the next best method, which is what the cost is weighed against

But you dont see the same gap between methods at TDs for the cost to be weighed the same way

[fickle drum]

Made a v.0.1 for the exploration guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FjQD3gKQwFl8vTLe2Fzpa1pwqi5Bj4UDX8d7iJSv6-E/edit?usp=sharing, also made it's own thread if people want to discuss further https://discord.com/channels/166812746510368768/1404434573332447232

[formal quartz]

I think if you compare doing kills with non-bofa/scobo ranged, you will change your mind. hence the suggestion to try it. It felt worth it to me, but I'm also a bofaless hack because the prison hates me

[slate dome]

Why would comparing the dps of both change my mind?

It's nowhere near the same gap as something like abbies

Not sure what you mean by that part

[craggy granite]

I'm for the most part on the side of doing td's first because that one will give faster exp rates, and if gear wise they're both similar enough, i'd rather get the higher stats faster from td's

where if time saved between two upgrades would be similar, then it'd be best to go for whichever one gets more exp faster

[bold zealot]

Is it worth it to grind void before 100 combat?

[craggy granite]

it'd take like 15-20% longer i think

you also need 100 combat for elite void

so you're not using it anyways

[woven nova]

No u dont use it for anything

[inland cosmos]

Better to get 100 combat to speed up the void grind

[tacit crow]

And make sure you get hard CAs too

[craggy granite]

going back to the whole "slayer helm" location in the chart - need to boost to antivenoms for the ornate pool, which again requires herblore, and it's also the hardest req for karamja diary more or less too

also if not doing block list stuff for earlier slayer, then probably slayer helm is an earlier priority get cause of desert diary

otherwise, why not go to mixology early and not make the unf pots?

[hybrid blaze]

other way around

if the blocklist changes make early slayer tougher, we need to be more careful with slayer points

not less careful

[craggy granite]

fair enough

but either way, post-70 herblore should want slayer helm from my understanding, but being told rn by the chart "hey, get to 81-82ish w/o"

which is fine

but karamja diary & ornate pool won't get to use the desert diary benefit

so something's still not adding up there

[hybrid blaze]

Yes, I do think the gear progression chart has racked up quite a few flaws

[chilly ruin]

i think thats probably quite easy following the guide but idk how many ppl use the chart without bruhsailer

if u make use of barblore and are doing some farming while fishing i think its very easy to hit that

[craggy granite]

Vorkath eating Karambwans doing single kc trips was fine, could go right after bowfa
Next im going to knock out quest cape work towards wrath runes & bloodbark

bloodbark -> slayer helm -> Karamja Elite & maxed poh -> titans

I see the ancient staff upgrade and I’m not very confident about going muspah (or duke tele) at this point

[craggy granite]

It’s not that I don’t have the herbs, it’s that I don’t want to make the unfinished pots now that I have the gp

Is the upgrade worth doing that? Probably

Does it annoy me. Yes

[chilly ruin]

yeah i feel kinda bad about it but slayer helm is also so far off for me lol

and having access to like good divines as i unlock priff is nice

[craggy granite]

I’m probably doing my current greater demon task and tureal boosting points to get my unlocks done.

[rustic grove]

why is fish barrel not on chart? i thought it was op for bwans

[hearty briar]

faster to shop bwans and bank with trading sticks than fish em or buy with fish barrel

fish barrel nice for barb fishing but not required

[rustic grove]

i didnt know i could buy bwans

[hearty briar]

yeee the boy Tiadeche has the hookup

[rustic grove]

whats the strat? because theres no bannk

[hearty briar]

bring trading sticks, walk to Rionasta and have him send em to the bank

[hearty briar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76D_ps2ur0

[rustic grove]

tyty

[dusky fog]

Actually I think barrel is faster than sticks but it’s not as macroefficient

[hearty briar]

interesting! brimhaven poh to get back?

[somber dagger]

Yes

[craggy granite]

I thought barrel + multiskilling makes the most sense in my head, shouldn’t that be more macro efficient?

[strange nexus]

I think it would depend on if you do your clues or not

[dusky fog]

Possibly. Barrel is definitely more bwans/hr. Some people value the mining exp from the other method

[craggy granite]

Doing gem mining is nice anyways

[polar void]

Gem mining is peak, it's such a vibe when you get it working

[dire torrent]

Do some1 have link to reddit thread about the prog chart, i want to entertain my self with the comments

[half quail]

https://old.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/1mjy9vo/i_updated_my_chart_again/

[dire torrent]

Humble thanks!

[craggy granite]

If people want to take into account getting exp more effectively into gear progression, I’d be interested in talking about that

The exp from td’s being better than dg’s is one of the reasons im leaning towards getting a synapse first

When all things are near equal I am generally prioritizing exp

[normal prism]

Iirc the main reason for delaying tds is ancient shard bottleneck, so I think thats the main thing to consider

[somber dagger]

It is, instead of running to the shop, you mine and use the deposit bank, but will be a little bit lower karamb per hour

[craggy granite]

Should be synapse in around 18 shards iirc, and the question is getting 30. Keep doing td’s beyond that, out of luck, do dg’s first, probably out of luck

Doing td’s until synapse and then demon tasks as the shards come by should cover my ass

[normal prism]

Ye I did tds early as well wasnt a big issue

[real yacht]

are pegs worth now due to avernics? or more of a background passive goal?

[frozen olive]

definitely have higher value, but in a lot of max setups I think you still don't get max hits from em(?)

[real yacht]

I get 1 max hit with quiver on bowfa in toa buthgavent calced anything else

[frozen olive]

if you have vambs you don't get the hit right?

[dire torrent]

Whats the priority of eye / gauntlets at this point?

Lets not talk about no infernal.

[full panther]

Gauntlet is bis, eye is niche bis, and has spec with applications too

Niche bis for nylo waves

[dire torrent]

Is Eye spec used in raids with shadow?