Gear Progression Chart

[mortal perch]

It really supports going tbow towards before shadow, everywhere that tbow is bad, eye is good, so you have a strong option at every boss with fang/tbow/eye instead of having to BP obelisk/akkha or tbow in crystal instead of masouri for zebak/wardens

[heady gate]

Why are dragon tasks obsolete now? Or is that only after the slayer changes? I figured it would still be wanted for melee vorkath during the slayer grind, and also shamans since it was before dwh

[unborn night]

Why is gem bag in gear prog? is it actually needed for anything

[wary ibex]

I think bruhsailor uses it during gotr to multiskill, maybe I'm misremembering

[opal dagger]

Also it’s nice for gem mining

[unborn night]

at this point its useless right?

I have coal bag + 38 nuggets (2 nuggets off prospector helm for diary)

Not worth staying for 100 nuggets purely for gem bag ?

[wary ibex]

from the document (chapter 2):
If you think the coal and gem bag are not useful enough you can instead opt to first get ~68-70 mining through other means (in particular, sandstone or blast mining). This option will mean you will be short on gp and have to make a set of air staves from scratch to adjust.

They say to get prospector helm from volcanic mine

but it seems it's somewhat up to you whether its worth it

[unborn night]

Other than gem mining what purpose does it have

[wary ibex]

probably just completionist sake at your point

[opal dagger]

Gem crab trip extension

[wary ibex]

but I think gem mining is one of the best options for combination of xp rate AND pet rate

I think I also used it for vyre pickpocketing

[unborn night]

Gem mining is goated for slayer

[wary ibex]

is it BiS at elven crystal chest opening?

[inland cosmos]

Can use it to cut gems during for example gotr

[inland cosmos]

Metal dragons will be a block and normal dragons got their stab defense reduced so you don’t need fang for them

[hybrid blaze]

I'll take a look but it won't be today.
Fwiw I don't think this is enough to move the needle on tbow before toa

[hybrid blaze]

Yes, that's after the changes

[mortal perch]

Could I ask for why you think it won't shift anything?

if doing 3+12s shadow isn't that important, if its solo normals then its used for portal & babydile? (Eye would win on vanguards surely due to smaller hits, even if less dps); feels like it wouldn't be that impactful to have a shadow in cox to completion but having ancestral & tbow for toa on the other hand would be more impactful (tbow used at wardens p2/3/4 & zebac), ancestral used at akkha, obelisk warden p2

Furthermore the shadow grind is longer then it used to be which also help the t-bow first point of view

I havn't done the math but surely its not so clean cut that it can be dismissed without further investigation

I could shadow be more important for CMs but I doubt that is assumed for the purpose of this progression

[craggy granite]

With the eye & bracelet I thought I’d probably do 3+12 for rigour & augury after Mokha even without ideal melee hand gear

[mortal perch]

I this this is more in relation to the shadow/tbow step

[craggy granite]

oh, valid

[mortal perch]

idk, not saying this is right 100% but i think its worth a discussion on if shadow is still the first mega rare irons go for

[craggy granite]

Having ancestral before shadow makes sense imo

Having shadow w/o ancestral/virtus at least means you’re grinding cox either way

[mortal perch]

the gap between shadow/eye with low gear is pretty small if not in favour of eye in some of the calcs I have looked at

(low gear meaning confliction + ahrims)

and the masouri you pick up from toa doesn't do alot while you still camping fbow

[wary ibex]

I mean isn't dhcb something like ~250 solos? Normally you'd transition to dhcb+bp if you have have shadow, so masori would help at that point.

[full panther]

Will flag this for future investigation

Feel free to have at it in the meantime, will help a lot prob

[wary ibex]

I also think it's heavily dependent on what kind of chambers you're running, but maybe stuff like that could be added into the FAQ or something (maybe a "design philosophy" section)

then again, how many readers actually use FAQs in general

[hybrid blaze]

Isn't shadow bis on 2/3 vanguards, used a ton at olm itself, in addition to the rooms you mentioned? Plus the gap between tbow and bowfa is smaller than that between shadow and eye.
But the real convincing argument to me is that cox is way way longer than toa, like 2-3x as long. So a good upgrade for cox saves much more time than a good upgrade for toa

[hybrid blaze]

Make sure to check enemies that you traditionally don't mage, but do with shadows massive accuracy bonus. I really think eye is only good if you have a way to bump the accuracy or restrict it to mage weak enemies

[mortal perch]

Below calcs assuming occult, ahrims, confliction, avernics:

Mut (small) - Shadow 10.92 dps Eye 11.47 dps
Olm Mage Hand - Shadow 10.28 Eye 10.42 (1 spec) 10.0 dps (0 spec)
Vanguard Melee - Shadow 10.12 Eye 9.7
Vanguard Mage - Shadow 9.17 Eye 7.75 Bofa 8.73
Portal - Bofa 7.1 Shadow 9.48

I have eye beating shadow on small mut, beats on olm with 1 spec, loses on melee vanguard (but likely small enough that you use it anyway due to the smaller hits), its not good for magic vanguard, but bofa isn't that far off shadow

its big sad for abysal portal though

I'm very happy for people smarter then me to run some numbers and tell me im wrong but I just don't see shadow being as important in cox as it used to be, even if cox is 2-3 times as long a grind

the gap would be alot higher in CMs but once again assuming thats not what would be assumed for the guide

[thick spoke]

I'm pretty sure you don't have enough spec for mage hand if you're already specing melee hand

I don't know how much time specing either hand saves though

[mortal perch]

from what i understand you need to tank a hit here and there on 1 side with shadow which doesn't happen with eye, another thing to consider

Further data on tbow vs fbow in toa: (Assumes crystal + max bgs reductions) 400 invo

Zebac - Bofa 8.33 Tbow 8.97
Warden P2 - Bofa 7.35 Tbow 7.94
P3 - Bofa 8.2 Tbow 9.26
P4 - Bofa 7.8 Tbow 8.73

Much larger difference for a much larger amount of the raid

[thick spoke]

Not sure why the chart has boots first and eye/gaunts later, there's nothing inbetween that improves the time to get eye/gaunts so might as well have them all on the same place given their similar rates. Gloves even does a little bit on yama for dc upgrade/more slayer (barraging)

[craggy granite]

Isn’t slayer using bracelets?

And I thought melee at Yama was used

[thick spoke]

Oh you're right

[full panther]

the rationale is boots benefit slayer, the other two don't

the other two are mostly relevant for zul and raids

[thick spoke]

I mean sure, but if you put it at the same place it's still same amt of time to get

and I think the dc upgrade is nice to get before doom as well

[craggy granite]

What upgrades am I not keeping up with for tob that eye + boots + blowpipe + tent whip means they’re good to go

Cause I know I was going to run tob for avernic

[full panther]

main req for tob is friends tbh

[thick spoke]

You are good to go with those items

[craggy granite]

Is it occult for zulrah with eye

Is there an easy way to calculate occult’s time save at zulrah?

[full panther]

ttk diff and multiply by expected kc (512)

[craggy granite]

You calc’d things for different phases though

Cause bowfa eye

[full panther]

ah

sec, i had a methodology for this ish

[craggy granite]

Getting lightbearer “early” still seems constantly strong in most things I’m looking at

[full panther]

step 1: decide how many phases to consider:
step 2: enumerate abundances of magma (n_r), serpentine (n_g) and tanzanite (n_b) phase in all four rotations and aggregate them
step 3: compute ttk diffs ttk_r, ttk_g, ttk_b.
step 4: compute an averaged ttk_diff: ttk_diff = (ttk_r*n_r + ttk_g*n_g + ttk_b*n_b)/(n_r+n_g+n_b)

that was my time saved at zulrah method

[craggy granite]

Do we have time at each phase, I always forget that

[full panther]

the visualization pulled from wiki shows how many hits he does

[craggy granite]

Seeing the eye + chally speed run thing a second ago looked nuts

[full panther]

other than that na

[craggy granite]

Having eye looks just so strong there

[full panther]

thats why bp is after eye

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I saw you calc’d like 24 mil melee exp from slayer and it sounds like putting tob for avernic before that sounds good

That is so much melee that the time for every advantage there has to add up

[indigo shadow]

Right, what I gave was the median, when 50% of players will have obtained all pieces and fang. The expected value converges to 834 kills and the standard deviation is 531.

[full panther]

imo tob has special considerations. either you have friends and can send i way early. or you need to convince strangers that you can carry ur own weight, possibly by letting skill-gated items vouch for you :)

it'd be like infernal cape in the chart, some will and possibly should opt to do it immediately post bowfa

some might similarily opt to go on a detour for the avernic i dont even know when

[craggy granite]

doing wdr can’t be the worst for Tob can it? I know it isn’t bad for cox

[full panther]

for flexibility sake, having appropriate mage gear, i.e. occult, is a nescesity for raiding with strangers

[full panther]

following this line of thought, we'd need to account for their reqs

at which point hte furthest we can slide avernic to the left is pre inferno lol

but with friends that are not wdr u can do tob way before this already

so the argument still roughly holds to keep avernic where it is, and trust users to make exceptions in their own circumstances

a more aggressive stance is feasible tbf

[craggy granite]

I think putting things more aggressively like 98 agility and telling people do things at their own realistic pace

Makes the most sense to me with the attitude there now

If you can, great, but if you can’t, move onward

Just know that this is ideal to have

[full panther]

i could be convinced to give avernic and scythe way higher priority tbh

scythe pre cox seems appropriate, i've played around with the thought just a little

i dont know know how to make a mathematical argument just yet for that tbh

[craggy granite]

I think having the spec weapons from cox for tob sounds good

And dhl is also just good enough

[full panther]

one could argue a bgs is sufficient if u leech the maul from other team members

but claws seem nice

[craggy granite]

But also if doing Hydra for gloves and dhl, I think that’s good to go

[full panther]

i dont know how burning claws holds up against dclaws

[craggy granite]

And I’m not gonna grind tob before then

[full panther]

why

[craggy granite]

Hmm, maybe you’re right

if I get scythe I can do a lot

Scythe for all of the bossing sounds good

Rax, cox, etc

Avernic -> Yama -> Scythe -> ultor

?

[full panther]

maybe

i dont know

[craggy granite]

Having scythe for like the 15-20 mil of melee exp sounds huge

[full panther]

the cross-dependencies with scythe and obtaining scythe can become quite the mess

[craggy granite]

i doubt that tent whips last there, only way I see it reasonably done is with blade of saeldor

which fwiw, there are probably enough shards to do that going on rate at cg now

and if it's done with nox hally, that kind of defeats the purpose

[thick spoke]

You'll likely run out of tent whips but you can just use regular whips but I wouldn't go worse

[opal dagger]

Surely you would just revert your bowfa if you’re on a scythe grind

[craggy granite]

at that point i'd rather skip the tent whip and kraken altogether and just corrupt blade

going for tent whip is taking longer than thieving elves

[thick spoke]

Yeah if you're planning on not doing anything except for tob you should just convert bow to saeldor for the time being

[craggy granite]

technically doesn't even corrupt blade, it'll probably corrupt by the end

ty infusion changes

avernic -> yama -> tob -> scythe sounds like a fun route

with eye + blowpipe + blade

i'll ship that

[thick spoke]

Scythe only saves like 3 hrs on ultor so you could prob pot that aswell

[craggy granite]

scobow + blade for zenytes also works

[thick spoke]

Problem with tob is always gonna be finding teams and I think you should just do it when you have sufficient gear (bp/whip/trident) and a team to take you and not look too much into when progression is

[craggy granite]

yeah, I've got a clan from my main, and most people pref tob over the other raids

i think eye -> bp -> blade sounds fun

[opal dagger]

Also having a scythe split worth of gp on a main helps your chances to find a team.

[craggy granite]

Yeah

[opal dagger]

The only issue with that is if you want to do other content that requires your bowfa before you hit scythe

[craggy granite]

can't really do tob unless you can split, though i'm sure there are ffa's at wdr

[craggy granite]

i'll just go between the two, getting bgs, td's, inferno with bowfa

lightbearer -> scobow -> delve -> boots & eye -> zulrah -> inferno

and bandos almost immediately

maybe also sgs

[opal dagger]

Wouldn’t you already have a bgs for the initial toa step

[thick spoke]

sgs is not worth getting for inferno

even if you have it I would probably not bring it

[craggy granite]

sgs for quiver

and yama

[craggy granite]

yeah, but i didn't mention that when saying lightbearer

[thick spoke]

nice to have but not needed there either

[craggy granite]

yeah, i don't really use hasta with what i'm saying is the thing

cause if i have scythe then dhl isn't really used

arkan blade isn't as good, but it's probably doable until keris upgrade

[opal dagger]

Do mage roles ever bring magus ring for tob? Or am I crazy. I haven’t kept up with the tob meta in a long time

[thick spoke]

Not that I know of

You reach the freeze threshold easily without and it's just not needed at nylo

[opal dagger]

Probably isn’t worth bringing for eye in nylos I imagine

[thick spoke]

Might be different in shadow setups but I don't know anyone who runs that atm

It's not

lightbearer also has good value

[opal dagger]

Yeah it would just be for nylo king I guess but gl with that

Lightbearer/ultor is better I have to imagine

[craggy granite]

i figure that acb & sgs have a bit more use than just getting hasta for toa, right?

acb for muspah, eventually for nex/zaryte

[thick spoke]

acb isn't that much different to rcb at muspah tbh

[craggy granite]

sgs seems more like a "why not sending it" spec in a few places

cause i'm more "staff of the dead seems nice for barraging"

but i'm also not going to stay at zammy for that

[thick spoke]

I would probably not bother getting an acb before you have horn from nex ngl

[opal dagger]

The megas help out at sara gwd a lot

[craggy granite]

gotcha

bgs + burning claws for toa sounds nice doing td's before that

[sleek prawn]

Eye for tob then? Your play style is exactly like mine. Everything you have said so far sounds like fun to me

[craggy granite]

yeah, having the fastest weapons for tob sounds so much more fun

I have maccas from when I was doing moons CAs, but I think sulphur blades from Naguas would be good too for people

I'll just tell people i'm not taking the freezing role and go arceuss spellbook

[sleek prawn]

Yea exactly - mind me adding you on disc and on osrs?

Sounds like I’m taking the exact same route as you

[dreamy whale]

Chads are the 3 of these doable all in one construction stew boost?

[inland cosmos]

Yes

[dreamy whale]

nice one, now to get 77 herb and money lol

[inland cosmos]

Need 75 construction to boost to 80 to create all 4

[dreamy whale]

yep got that sorted

the jumpscare of seeing that agility is now the very next step for me was quite something when it updated last night

but didnt quite go as far as banking all my mahogany homes stuff and tping to sepulchre on the spot

[inland cosmos]

You don’t need to do the agility step all in one go, it’s just the most optimal time to do it

The money from sep is the main reason why it was moved forward

[dreamy whale]

oh yeah I know, its a meme for a reason I guess haha, but yeah its great for alching the bstaves too while I do it

[hybrid blaze]

This differs slightly from the 853 ladlor found using a brute force script

[strange nexus]

Issue with tobs is irons who dont have gp to spilt a scythe. Its 416s for ffa not wdr like for cox

[strange nexus]

Just use a nox hally for everything but p2 verzik

[strange nexus]

Hmm looked at wdr channels and the ffa channel is no longer dead so maybe the scythe price sky rocket made wdr ffa viable

[indigo shadow]

Looks like I made a typo there, my script converges to 854, not 834.

[craggy granite]

whole point of this is that I'd have a Scythe to get rancour, etc.

[full panther]

phew

[strange nexus]

Ahh

Personally im gonna grind a blade to do that on my baby iron but I have a few reasons that dont apply to everyone

Mainly restricted build so its voidwaker or blade or nox

[indigo shadow]

@full panther I can imagine you have gotten this request before, but here goes anyway. It would be super cool if the hover text on the items gave a brief 1-2 sentence description of why it is placed there. All that information is scattered between the BRUHsailer guide and this 6500 post thread which makes it very difficult to understand unless you already know.

[strange nexus]

Assuming your grinding oath b4 scythe?

[craggy granite]

avernic -> oath -> scythe

-> ultor

[strange nexus]

Could use rapier assuming you pull b4 scythe

[craggy granite]

maybe ultor first

[strange nexus]

Id let rng determine that

You go dry get ultor you spoon get scythe first

[full panther]

aye. it would be a great addition, but could grow brutal to maintain

i've considered some pdfs on the domain accessible with some explanations

[opal dagger]

Maybe just a pdf that you update with the changes on each new version. That way you don’t have to go back and change things on the site individually

Granted having the first explanation would be the largest amount of work

As it stands just pointing people to the discord will cover their questions that they care to have answered

[craggy granite]

i think that works for slayer generally, but i'm almost definitely turning bowfa -> blade

for that

[sleek prawn]

kinda like boaty is doing right now right? by avernic im assuming you mean avernic defender

[craggy granite]

yeah, avernic defender from tob

i'm going to get threads and eye before then probably, for blowpipe purposes

and when i get ice barrage i'm sending inferno, which tbh might be after Mokha & Blowpipe

[sleek prawn]

i spooned blowpipe really early, dont know how that affects anything for me ngl

[craggy granite]

having threads & blowpipe & lightbearer for inferno is kind of the ideal

[full panther]

as in different than the current changelog system?

[opal dagger]

Essentially like the change log but with a sentence or two about the reasoning.

As it stands just saying added mohka uniques doesn’t really explain why they are where they are.

[craggy granite]

having scythe for every slayer boss sounds like it could be a net time save, but also sounds just fun

[full panther]

its an interesting initiative, but i dont think i could move forward with this

[opal dagger]

At the end of the day that’s all that matters. You do more than enough as it is.

[sleek prawn]

@craggy granite do you think me having bp already changes anything for me?

[craggy granite]

i doubt eye is needed at tob from what i understand, so like i'd send it

main reason i want threads & inferno & defender is for yama

cause of the demonbane weakness, all of the atk would be different

but also like you need to sustain scales with blowpipe

[sleek prawn]

yea true

[craggy granite]

iirc you said you got spooned, so probably still want bowfa + eye just for that

being stuck on scales sounds like a problem

[sleek prawn]

honestly yeah

and eye for tob just sounds like fun aswell

[craggy granite]

eye + blowpipe probably works for zulrah too to get scales

[opal dagger]

Bp helps you get the eye too so that’s nice

[craggy granite]

my gamer route
Bowfa -> BGS + Hasta(?) -> Titans -> Lightbearer -> TD's -> Mokha -> Zulrah -> Inferno -> Double Death Charge -> Turn Bowfa to Blade -> Quiver -> TOB -> Yama Oathplate -> Scythe/Ultor

and congratulations, can do cox, toa, and use scythe at all slayer bosses

[sleek prawn]

lightbearer mostly for inferno or?

[craggy granite]

Scythe as an upgrade for Araxxor, Cerb, Hydra

lightbearer seems like best ring until ultor

and I'd want the thread for rune pouch

[strange nexus]

If you have good spec weapons sure

But idk if id say that if ur only good spec wep is bone claws

[craggy granite]

Bone Claws, Blowpipe, Chally

[quartz delta]

Grab the popcorn, Ladlor posted chart on reddit

[strange nexus]

You planning on getting a voidwaker prior?

[craggy granite]

unless double death charge happens earlier

I can, but also maybe not?

[strange nexus]

Not that its that good for tob just thinking if you got a ring of the gods a long the way id prob just use that at inferno

[craggy granite]

I don't remember if Ultor or Lightbearer is the play at cox

isn't lightbearer for specs done

[strange nexus]

Cms lb regs ultor

Olm has a lot more def in cms making the 2nd spec a lot more valueabke

Valueable

[craggy granite]

voidwaker idk when it would get used here?

except vard

i'd still want dpick though

sending toa for keris for desert diary 4 just sound right

it's kind of that I'll likely get ring I think?

[indigo shadow]

Here it comes

[strange nexus]

Id want the spec for toa and I'd prob use it at tob cus no claws but maybe burning is better would have to check

[craggy granite]

more that the time to get all of it sounds like it takes a while

where burning claws should be gotten around the time as Synapse and give the slayer exp

[full panther]

majority of comments are usually well behaved tbf

[strange nexus]

Its going to be people saying to pot moons tbh

[sleek prawn]

Are "TD's" for scobo only or just send 2 synapses already?

[craggy granite]

I think I just need scobow?

[sleek prawn]

need 2 for yama right?

[craggy granite]

Having Mokha done there would just help with the rest of TDs

I heard that

I haven’t gotten to there yet

[sleek prawn]

true

[craggy granite]

I’m still at the very start there for myself

[sleek prawn]

yea same

we are kinda at the same place right now

[craggy granite]

But I think need 2 synapses for Yama

[sleek prawn]

i got titans done and got bp already, otherwise we are equal i think

[covert bay]

this sounds super fun. as someone with no inferno experience, is this viable? or should i just stick to regular ladlor route

[sleek prawn]

you can do this route

[craggy granite]

I think inferno is super reasonable with the guides now, and you can do visual ticks or something to understand them

[sleek prawn]

you can just route inferno later on aswell

[craggy granite]

With blowpipe, lightbearer, threads, prayer regen pots

I don’t see a reason people can’t get it done

Not saying one and done

[covert bay]

i'm still super early on, just need bring and piety then locking myself to sep, so i'll update you guys in 2 years when i'm there 😂

[craggy granite]

But inferno should be doable

Inferno before tob also to find teams lmao

[strange nexus]

You need 2 for solos and 2 for contracts only need 1 to pot for items

[craggy granite]

that’s really cool

[strange nexus]

But you probably dont wanna be switching between emberlight and scobo for delve so you'd probably want 2 for that reason aswell

[tacit crow]

Lightbearer is troll for inferno. Don't use that

[craggy granite]

I’d rather double blowpipe spec > suffering

[tacit crow]

You can double blowpipe spec whenever you need to with suffering too.

Lightbearer is gonna encourage you to milk waves and charge spec up making the inferno take longer than it has to be.

[craggy granite]

I have a bowfa inferno cape already on main where I used ring of the gods, so with prayer regen pots and deadeye I don’t really care what ring

I think BP spec in earlier waves on blobs sounds like it’d speed things up along, etc

For me using more BP spec and less time blood barraging probably would be faster, but that’s not 100% correct

[tacit crow]

You get the majority of your HP from blood barraging mini blobs/then phantom barraging them for no extra time spent. Blowpipe speccing them is slower than that

[polar void]

Man ladlor you weren't joking, redditors losing their minds in that thread over the 98 agility section lol

[polar void]

B-b-based

[lavish ledge]

where do i find latest version

[polar void]

Pretty sure the site is updated, it's in the pins

[candid haven]

yeah people I show Ladlor's prog chart for the first time often first comment on (or dismiss the entire chart bc of) either 98 agi or the fire cape placecment

wonder what the first typical comments would be if not about agi nor fire cape

[lavish ledge]

tbf 98 agi is pretty wild

im base 90s and my agi is 90 :p

[polar void]

i mean the logic checks out immediately the moment you use ur brain

its prob just knee reaction to not being familiar with how strong sep is

[candid haven]

yeah I dont blame the initial reaction with how people historically have a negative opinion on agi

[radiant pelican]

probably crying about moons or "fun"

[lavish ledge]

Yeah, it’s a strong sep, but if someone finds 98 Agility no fun and ends up quitting the game, that doesn’t help the account progress either.

Recommending 98 agi in a guide might be efficient, but that kind of advice isn’t aimed at the majority it appeals to a small minority of players willing to go that far.

[loud panther]

Ngl I have zero pity for people who won't make their own decisions, burn themselves out, and then blame the resource

[lavish ledge]

Most of the time, my advice is: Bruhsailer's guide is goated, follow it until it stops being fun, then start crafting your own path. Make sure to read the full chapters to get some solid general ideas.

[loud panther]

People will see the agi step and instead of thinking, "oh sepulchre is good even if i dont want to do it" they think, "this entire guide is trash because I dont like that bullet point specifically"

[lavish ledge]

To me, it was clear this guide is a masterwork, really well thought out. But once the game stops being fun and starts feeling like a second job, it kind of defeats the purpose. We enjoy the progress now, but let’s be honest, 20 years from now, we probably won’t care that much and neither will anyone else.

[inland cosmos]

Damn I didn't know ladlor was a rage baiter

[opal dagger]

The main benefit of the chart is to be able to reference for what is efficient. You can make your own decisions on where to deviate based on other criteria

[radiant pelican]

redditors = the easiest people to trigger on this planet

[opal dagger]

Just because you don’t follow it 1:1 doesn’t mean it’s a bad resource

[inland cosmos]

I 100% agree with this

but the thing is

you cant make a subjective guide

or rather you can but it will never be good

[opal dagger]

It’s useful if you’re a well known personality

[inland cosmos]

if a person is actively looking for a guide, why would they be looking for something that isn't percieved as the most efficient route?

[opal dagger]

Otherwise it’s just noise

[inland cosmos]

if you want to do a path you percieve as fun, why do you need a guide that follows exactly that path?

[opal dagger]

Boaty’s guide as an example

[round pond]

They just want to be hand fed the fun stuff without doing their own research

[inland cosmos]

at that point I guess what they are looking for is just a list of fun content that you are able to do

[chilly ruin]

i think some people just want some direction

[inland cosmos]

actually that is fair

osrs is really big

I do wonder then

some form of list of content available to a player based on their current stats/unlocks

might not be a terrible idea for them

I just don't see how a guide would work for most of them

[chilly ruin]

and i think in that sense ppl are often really happy to sacrifice long term progression for short term gain which is much more what boaty etc guide is intending

[austere pecan]

the thing there is, even then they have a line of "why would this even be on the list"

like, they arent immune to wanting to be even a little bit efficient

so again you have to draw a line somewhere

[inland cosmos]

the list would just have "all" content available, it would not be for the sake of efficiency at all

[opal dagger]

I still recommend the barrows > moons pipeline for brand new players

[austere pecan]

I imagine thats not actually what they want tho

[inland cosmos]

It would just be a resource for the players to find what is fun in the game

[opal dagger]

Also had them do Scurrius to get a taste of pvm early so they know they have something to look forward to outside of safespotting things with magic

[austere pecan]

like, it could be tried sure, but I dont think anyone actually wants to see all content available to them

they want some amount of curation

or order

[inland cosmos]

true

hmm

that is difficult

[opal dagger]

That’s why having a well known curator(boaty) make a guide will end up popular.

[austere pecan]

indeed, it ends up very suibjective

[inland cosmos]

yeah makes sense

but even then the boaty guide is not fun for everyone

it skips some paths some people might find more enjoyable

[full panther]

this one is a bit upsetting lol

[opal dagger]

I still prefer ladlors chart as a baseline since having math behind goals prevents me from having random blind spots

[inland cosmos]

for sure

[inland cosmos]

I wonder who here looks at your posts and thinks you are a rage baiter lmao

[austere pecan]

its ok, people get unjustly insulted by having someone tell them they arent 100% correct

[full panther]

i get how you can arrive there in the "hahah the redditors are gonna love this"

but thats a pattern recognition thing lol

not a designing things to piss em off

[woven nova]

All of these things are solved by q&as and reasonings on the website itself for the chart

[full panther]

but yall already know that. not happy to see that interpretation though

there are things that i play into that contribute to this possible perception lol

[opal dagger]

People are going to look for reasons to affirm their world view

If it’s not in good faith I wouldn’t give it too much value personally

But you’re right it can come off that way if they’re looking at those comments under that lense

[hybrid blaze]

I think it's an understandable interpretation of us laughing at how much reddit will dislike the 98 agility tile

[opal dagger]

It’s just strange to know there’s a section of people who are committed enough to find a discord forum thread here but not dedicated enough to actually read the discussions seriously.

[full panther]

the discord is linked on the page, its not far fetched they find this

and i would deffo prefer they dont feel made fun of or thought of as a dumb collective lol

98 agi sticks out like a sore thumb

its a fair criticism by all means

[opal dagger]

I mean if they’re looking at your chart and just think you’re rage baiting idk how they give this thread the time of day.

But yeah when I banter about 98 agi being the gift that keeps on giving, I know you don’t mean to do it to piss people off

[full panther]

i agree on the consensus there could be a gap in the market somewhat, but its not a trivial one to fill anyhow

[tacit crow]

I just don't get how they don't realize you can very easily ignore certain steps and still have an efficient pvm profession.

[inland cosmos]

equally funny when you also add the skip option in the same update

[full panther]

aye. i think criticism on the us vs. them is some feedback worth acknowledging, but besides that ye, this is the part that is the "funny"

lack of flexibility in how its used

[austere pecan]

i also think that, visually, the agi seems earlier than it really it

[lusty dust]

I feel like a lot of people looking up a guide arent gonna have the knowledge of the game to know that you can skip/substitute steps, particularly since sepulcher is so "early" in the progression

[opal dagger]

Idk if there’s any merit to adding an optional icon/tag to the squares

[austere pecan]

thats post RFD, post most early game stuff

[full panther]

sep also isnt a consequence free one to skip tbf

[austere pecan]

you go from 98 agi into CG prep

[full panther]

oh ye most ppl dont realize how much shit you are doing before the 98 agi even too

[austere pecan]

like yeah, its first row, but second row already starts having bis end game items

[opal dagger]

More of an indictment of jagex making the bofa so good while also not caring about your gear.

There’s no real alternative

[chilly cove]

the FAQ on the page should be updated to include the pinned FAQ's in this thread. the one here is a lot more thorough.

[opal dagger]

Might be a bit of shooting the Messenger

[tacit crow]

I mean in terms of macro account progression towards max, yeah. But in terms of a efficient PVM chart, it's one of the more obvious ones to skip if you aren't into that

[full panther]

the FAQ has been a bit of a project but i've probably been overcomplicating it a bit codewise

would take 2-3 mins to fix this one for example

[full panther]

true that. keep at it with bstaves and thug it out i suppose

[opal dagger]

Also getting magic xp gets weird

[full panther]

definitely

many are requesting right click explanations for items, and it'd be a good initiative

[flint pebble]

You could show people the expected loot from 98 at sep, and list how long it would take to get similar results at other methods

[full panther]

thats a good one

[opal dagger]

That seems potentially more feasible

[full panther]

maybe a "documentation bounty" system could work

[hybrid blaze]

I do already think that a lot of these steps really are 'general account progression' and not maxing. If you're really set on maxing only most pvm is not worth including

[inland cosmos]

I thought the chart was specifically for getting bis gear

[full panther]

the chart is derived from parasailer's chart, which was pvm without forfeiting max

thats my understanding of it anyhow

[hybrid blaze]

Yes

Its not a speedrun to any one goal

Rather its a general progression

[full panther]

on many of my posts, it has started to get coined as maxeff lol

it often is a bit confusing in thats not how i feel about it

[craggy granite]

I think something for song of the elves as a quest goal around then

At the same time

Might help 98 agility seem less out there

Also 98 agility should have 82 first

Because when is the nails and planks

[opal dagger]

Tbh the agi is just a means to an end for future tiles. The agi xp itself is a byproduct in terms of non maxing progression

[full panther]

thats how i feel about it too

[craggy granite]

Putting 82 agility and then construction with sote & 98 agility next

Would be a bit more how I’d talk about it

[indigo hollow]

Tbf #1229571283428053002 message

[full panther]

yep

outside observer would read that very literally, but its banter

likely just irresponsible overall

simple fix and will try to implement it moving forward :)

[opal dagger]

The 98 agi step might also be more intimidating when you don’t have Barb fishing on the chart(understandably)

So it feels like a crazy gap

[full panther]

im a big barb fishing enthusiast, thats for sure

[chilly ruin]

i wonder how diff people would perceive the chart if it had an explanation box first or if no one reads and would still just be confused

[opal dagger]

In an ideal world you could hover/right click a tile for explanations but it gets really hard to maintain that over time

[full panther]

the lads have invited me out for a beer, and im gonna accept their offer. That idea by Vartorvis of writing up a comparison between what sep does for the account, and how long the alternatives would take sounds very good. if someone is motivated to materialize the arguments in there, you are very welcome to do so

[flint pebble]

I think there’s a significant population online who see sep and think “that’s just for the sweats.” I’m not sure explaining why sep is good would help those folks. But hopefully there are enough ppl who would see the explanation with an open mind and consider trying sep.

[chilly ruin]

i would like to think im one of those ppl and i get it now

i wonder how much replacing it with a generic skilling thing would be to encompass farming, birdhouses alongside it too would be for example

[hybrid blaze]

BRUHsailer has a list of the expected loot btw

[full panther]

neat

[opal dagger]

It’s also kind of problematic because streamling sepulchre also lowers the amount of contracts and birdhouse runs you do before pvm goals.

[woven nova]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1orNUuGmhMWQamytxwrVyZI_c6fLWZH4J0yJX1nRLgXM/edit?gid=0#gid=0

[dusky fog]

@full panther did you end up making any changes?

[sleek prawn]

This

[flint pebble]

Let the lad get his drinks with the lads

[hybrid blaze]

Id grab the guide step itself so the text can be copy-pasted

[dusky fog]

This was what I got from 98 grind

[hybrid blaze]

That difference in lockpicks is curious

[dusky fog]

Is eye> bowfa at zulrah? Does this assume specific gear?

Just looking at the updated chart

[full panther]

Correct

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah I thought so

[opal dagger]

Does the line about the ranarrs factor in the mixology uniques?

[hybrid blaze]

No

[dusky fog]

Is this with bloodbark?

[full panther]

Bloodbark and occult ye

[polar void]

"a gap in the market" ladlor missing out on those redditor ironman STONKS

Fucking hilarious

Fwiw moons is great content

[indigo hollow]

I find it boring as hell personally

Lots of forced downtime

[opal dagger]

The clone phase is fun. The rest of it is pretty meh.

[polar void]

Hmm yeah there is a fair amount of downtime, good point. That's my least fav part of delve boss too, the forced shield phase downtime

[warped marlin]

Hey, dont know if this has been said before or maybe im missing something. I think arkan blade is good to get before before piety. For all the green dragons, the dps is 4 instead of 3.5 from dragon scim. And then the special attack adds to dps too. I'm probably missing something though.

[hearty briar]

I think this is getting workshopped right now, it's a bit circular because of the runecraft requirement

you want piety for sotf fight, sotf for dayealt, dayelt for RC, RC for arkan blade for piety

[fossil flame]

i think u can definitely get by with less for sotf

not having piety is a downside but idk i think its doable

[hearty briar]

piety also helps with kingdom divided and the final dawn quests too

[fossil flame]

sotf is still hardest one out of those easily

the others are more mechanics then a dps check like sotf

[hearty briar]

all doable for sure, just gotta figure out if it's worth it to RC pre imbue to get arkan for drags

[fossil flame]

if u get past sotf u can just do more sep for magic xp to still get imbue

[inland cosmos]

this is true

I do wonder tho

how big of a downgrade is doing those quests with chivalry instead?

[hearty briar]

probably not hugely, I'm not sure what prayer you're expected to be at before green drags

[inland cosmos]

you could basically cut the prayer grind in two steps maybe

[strange nexus]

Yeah true, would you still get a bowfa in this case or would it be an rcb inferno type deal? I feel like most skillers wouldnt be able to do an rcb cape

Or would a blowpipe also not be worth getting?

[inland cosmos]

I dont think you go for bowfa in a pure max speedrun

[fossil flame]

isint zuk like best slayer xph?

[strange nexus]

It is but your losing other valuable xp

I guess if your barraging/challying tzhaar though your also not getting loot

Prob depends on your skill

I guess JCW maxed then grinded an inferno cape

[warped marlin]

Yeah I personally did kingdom divided, final dawn, etc without even chivalry. Didnt think about rc levels, i got those purely from tears of guthix and quests I think. But maybe if you are playing more, you won't reach that level yet.

[strange nexus]

Rcb msb 1 attempt inferno probably is off the cards for mox skillers lol

Most*

[inland cosmos]

the blade is very conservatively placed atm, I do think it will be moved to before green dragons in the future but the proper routing needs to be found

[hearty briar]

I personally agree with arkan before piety yeah but idk if the math checks out

vibe based progression

[craggy granite]

I thought that bruh saying “scar mine to get 52 rc w/o actually doing dt2” bosses made sense

[inland cosmos]

that could work, but no routing has been investigated yet

[hearty briar]

wiki says you need 60 rc to start dt2 🤔

[inland cosmos]

ah yeah

also need to do sotn

I dont think the scar mine will work at all

question then really is how early is feasible for sotf boss and the quest to get arkan blade

[hearty briar]

or whats a decently efficient path to get 52 rc pre sotf

[fossil flame]

idt there is one tbh

if u cant start dt2 to get pure essence then its kinda lost

i saw shobeck taking on sotf with regular str/attack pots and like non chivarly prayers it was pretty close

if u have super strs/some better play u can prob do it

[hearty briar]

mayyyybe divert lamps from slayer to RC? idk where you end with that though

[warped marlin]

Naah, lamps on rc can't be the play I think

[hearty briar]

farm 2000 fire talismans for tiaras

arceuus library.....?

[craggy granite]

temple trekking and getting wc outfit?

8k ess/hr with that

[hearty briar]

napkin math shows like 3 hours of arceuus library to go from 38-52 (38 is end point of part2)

can multiskill too 🤔

[craggy granite]

multiskilling that even if it's just fletching seems not the worst for that

doesn't sound good tho

eh, i think that optimization of a few hours there are worth it

[hearty briar]

looks like similar rates at those levels at zmi but zmi gives runes too which is nice

[craggy granite]

that one is barely lost time

[craggy granite]

getting the ess is the problem

how would gotr be

[hearty briar]

slightly worse but close

[craggy granite]

prob better multiskill

and gets runes

shopping for seaweed etc and doing that at gotr at that point

probably pays off

it's not ideal multiskill but it's better and you'd make more crafting progress

[craggy granite]

@full panther idk how serious you actually were planning to be about scythe rush, but ty for that suggestion, im going to probably angle towards that

[full panther]

Aye gl hf

[craggy granite]

It’s still a long time away, cause gonna route in delve, all of Yama, zulrah, bgs, lightbearer.

Talked about that stuff up earlier
But having scythe for all of the subsequent bossing and cox seems fun

[tacit crow]

I'm skipping lance and going for scythe after I get all these delve drops. Screw hydra

[hybrid blaze]

Sorry I don't follow

What are your goals, and why does this involve rcb inferno?

[strange nexus]

Oh I was just commenting on if your goal is max total and only max total what items you would still go for. I though about it more and I dont think its reasonable to expect a skiller to do a msb rcb inferno lol but technically speaking its prob worth it on paper ?

[strange nexus]

hmm maybe on paper it wouldn't be worth such a slow cape. I'm surprised inferno cape is only 1 max hit most of the time with emberlight based on gear you'd be using on a skilling focused account, unless pushing for xp beyond 99

[north acorn]

question, I giga spooned a magic fang on my diary kc, should I still go for the eye or can I skip it?

[strange nexus]

eye is still a solid upgrade but my god im jealous of that

[round pond]

is the list supposed to reset on update?

[neat sun]

Is move still avernic treads then yama for death charge or is that going to be switched? I’m at that point rn on my iron

[flat flame]

makes sense to me, unless you somehow already have zcb etc, ive been finding im never really spec energy starved, the boss gives less melee punish opportunities later on than the first few waves

im even considering ditching the lightbearer for ultor because of that point, so at least on the rare occasion there is a melee punish at least I can get a few more max hits...

[blazing fern]

based on the position of avernic treads in the new gear progression chart, are we saying the meta is to farm delves 1-6 or 1-7 with scobo, rune arrows, god dhide boots, lb, deadeye, chally?

[hollow cobalt]

Nah it's gotta be as deep as you can

[blazing fern]

worth making amethyst u think? feel like every efficiency guide says no amethyst

idk if rune arrow / deadeye is just troll

but yes i know every death is skill issue at the end of the day

[somber dagger]

Amethys is troll

[blazing fern]

and dragon arrows not worth?

[neat sun]

Just get the treads boys

[somber dagger]

If you go out of your way to grind content that drops it, yes

[blazing fern]

i mean to ask if it is worth it to use your dragon arrows that you have accumulated passively at that stage of the account (where gear progression chart shows treads/cloth/eye). or if you should just use rune.

i've never had a tbow and can't say i fully grasp how important it is to save d arrows for that stage (tbow) of the account.

[somber dagger]

I would say its worth to use dragon arrows in delve

Inferno, collo and so on. Tbow is quite rare tho

[opal dagger]

worth compared to rune or worth compared to amethyst

[polar void]

Compared to rune, I'd also like advice on that

I have about 5k dragon arrows that I'm thinking delve would be an excellent use case for, having no tbow currently of course

[full panther]

Nope, not intended to, but some change in the code made it so

Apoloies for the inconcenience

[next crow]

what inconvenience? I love filling out my squares

[blazing fern]

Compared to rune as we are assuming it is never worth to make amethyst arrows or darts (correct me if I’m wrong but not spending time to make amethyst seems to be conventional wisdom here)

[hybrid blaze]

You just have to compare both. I personally don't like amethyst but plenty of people do, and for a lot of players it's one of the few afk methods that still has some value

Just gotta assume both and check

[fossil flame]

i definitely think for delve any advantage u can get to go deeper is worth it

[hybrid blaze]

So dragon ammo?

[fossil flame]

ye

[hybrid blaze]

People are saying it's a short grind, and demonbane scaling is big, so it sounds sensible to me. But I haven't checked the calcs

[opal dagger]

Seems reasonable as a place to use your early stack of d arrows. My only issue I hear from common sentiment is that you use a lot of arrows due to the grubs( not bugged ).

[fossil flame]

idt its worth worrying about dammo for tbow tbh

ur dps is so insane with tbow its like whatever

[hybrid blaze]

Thats generally not how it works with weapon scaling

Usually the higher the dps the more reason to start stacking bonuses

[fossil flame]

ye its definitely good for tbow

by the time u get tbow most of ur ironman grinds are done

[dreamy whale]

Is it intended that you do song of the elves just before the bowfa/crystal armour step on the chart?

[indigo shadow]

If you follow BRUHsailer you will be doing sote between the PoH pool/altar/tree and slayer item steps

Then slayer to 69 for MM2 so you can chin to 92 ranged in MM2 tunnels before CG

[dreamy whale]

That's what messed me up a little bit there is some disparity between the two, bruh has you do SOTE before the poh stuff step

But not a massive difference I suppose

[indigo shadow]

mb BRUHsailer only says spirit tree before sote, the others come right after sote. So sote is placed on that 4x construction item square

I'm not sure, but I think sote is only placed in advance of CG to have access to the priff chins. If that is the main reason you might not need it any more with the new Auburnvale spot.

Could also be before the construction to make use of the 40k con xp reward from sote

which saves you just under 300 mahog planks

[dreamy whale]

good shouts, ty mate

Yeah the Spirit Tree is what ive ended up doing organically, gonna for for the other 3 on that con square all in one boost but need gp and 77 herb first 😄

[hasty berry]

jumping in, maybe this is already addressed

i believe delve and yama should be flipped, double dc is good for delve

[hybrid blaze]

Is yama good with just one synapse?

[sleek prawn]

if you duo yes

but for delve you want scobo, so 2 is kinda needed

[hybrid blaze]

No you only want scobo

Right?

[sleek prawn]

for delve yea

[hybrid blaze]

Yes, that's just one

[sleek prawn]

and ember for yama

[hybrid blaze]

No, that's why yama is later

You don't have ember

[sleek prawn]

ah yeah

[hybrid blaze]

I could well be wrong here but I'm really confused by the assumptions on which demonbane gear comes when

My main rule of thumb right now is "by 95 slayer you have all, if you want to do anything at all earlier than that you need a note from your mom good strategy"

If you're talking about sequencing of yama and delve after 95 ish slayer it makes sense to me again

[craggy granite]

I’m fairly sure I’ll have it by 85-90 slayer and I just dont get why youre asserting it much higher?

[sleek prawn]

its cause we are turael skipping that we will get it quicker i think

[woven nova]

who is turael skipping vro

[sleek prawn]

landorus and i

[woven nova]

u have shards for tds tho right?

[sleek prawn]

yes

cause of lots of barrage tasks

[woven nova]

o i see

yea idk how much youd get normally and also you need to do stuff like gorillas for zenytes

obv turael skipping u lose out on time to begin with

[craggy granite]

I also didn’t have the points for slayer helm is the big reason

Before 100 combat

[woven nova]

idk why that matters

[craggy granite]

cause the slayer unlocks take a lot of points and you i need to get those done

Slayer guide I don’t think is correct in assuming it’s done when it is

[woven nova]

u couldve just gotten it after 100 combat

its ok

[craggy granite]

I am still doing that, but desert diary for potions is important imo

And fletching, and having ring for the tree runs would be good too, etc

Also with block list set ups now, tureal boosting/skipping would be quicker

[woven nova]

why dont u just do normal slayer instead of skipping

[sleek prawn]

boring as fk

imo

[craggy granite]

Because post bowfa progression jumps into things that make slayer better

and involves gwd

Doing my good tasks and getting the unlocks + blocklist I want/need to make slayer better

Instead of being stuck doing the bad tasks

[umbral pasture]

not really no, eye is quite a bit stronger than swamp trident

[mossy onyx]

curious about the treads placement

why is it before yama and not with the rest of the delve items
is it just because its that good that you want to rush it as soon as scobo? or does it give enough of a boost for yama specifically

[somber dagger]

No items from yama helps on delve

[dusky fog]

I think I’ve had to redo the squares after every change. Like other guy said I’m not complaining, feels gratifying every time

[full panther]

ah dam

[mossy onyx]

That makes me question it more.

So is it more so that

1. Get treads after scobo
2. the other delve items aren't necessarily needed until zulrah, so go back to finish them up then

[fringe condor]

Basically

[craggy granite]

question
why is whip/tent whip even in the progression
like i'm sure that happens, but imo going for eye > trident completely cuts out the need for Kraken and while Whip is good for training there, so much would be arclight or hasta

Nox Hally isn't written in, but you'd normally use that

[chilly ruin]

whip is more important than nox hally imo

[craggy granite]

Cause right now what's being suggested is tent whip for ultor

or fang

[opal dagger]

Iirc he said he’s running the numbers to find out if it’s worth grabbing

[craggy granite]

whip is also just gotten from barraging

[opal dagger]

Well I guess it’s more that he has been looking into time for completion to see if it’s worth getting

[craggy granite]

at least I'd cut out tent whip, whip is just a notable milestone for most people

but I don't actually think it's getting use unless at TOB

and Ultor

speaking of the Avernic, with the demonbane multiplier at Yama, wouldn't Avernic before that make more sense

[chilly ruin]

are you talking about tent whip or whip? whip is just straight up better than hasta and a lot of things u will still be using whip on for slayer

skipping tent whip seems reasonable if u dont get it going for kraken cas

[craggy granite]

tent whip, and whip I'm saying it's used at slayer but you aren't going to barrage abby demons off task for it

[chilly ruin]

for sure

[craggy granite]

hasta is for dhl & toa, etc.

[opal dagger]

Whip is a pretty passive unlock. Krakens are better on the block list as soon as they’re unlocked so I can see the logic in skipping it

[craggy granite]

whip being a passive unlock that's not used at any pvm bossing other than tob/vard in the list from what i can tell

is why I'm asking about it

Even if it's not optimal, sending people to tob & vard with a regular whip when they can do araxxor to finish off nox hally

[opal dagger]

That’s why it has tent whip does it not?

[craggy granite]

cause with the variation on what was being said, completing nox hally is 853 kc vs expected kc just for rancour would be 600

sending that extra 250ish kc at Araxxor I'd tell most people

[chilly ruin]

sending learners to tob with a nox hally is a bit troll

[craggy granite]

i assumed that nox hally was a big enough upgrade over tent whip

i could be wrong

[chilly ruin]

it seems really plausible to me the extra time to get nox hally isnt a timesave overall

[craggy granite]

i genuinely don't know

[chilly ruin]

tob is a bit of a weird one in particular because the range there does actually matter

[tacit crow]

400 kraken for a tent is probably comparable time spent on 250 araxxor

[opal dagger]

The time save would be for ultor and not much else. It’s questionable how much time save is relevant for a team activity.

Well how to quantify it I guess

[chilly ruin]

learning tob with a whip is just easier on everyone

[craggy granite]

Yeah, people can do a whip

[chilly ruin]

i think tent whip is a reasonable one to go tho

(but do the CAs)

[polar void]

People should get nox hally because it's a fricken sick weapon

[indigo hollow]

At least at vard, I was calcing normal whip -> tent whip to be slightly more impactful than tent whip -> nox hally

[opal dagger]

There is a penalty for non demonbane weapons at tds. Not sure how much worse it would be

[umbral pasture]

whip would beat saeldor at tds

well

maybe not with slash over stab

abby dagger probs would though

anyway i wouldn't bother doing tds without arclight charges

[craggy granite]

Wouldn't it be Whip -> Nox Hally compared to the time of getting tent whip vs getting what's left of hally

[indigo hollow]

Yeah, was just giving some context for the relative power levels

[craggy granite]

going to suggest something and really don't mind people ripping into me for this one

regular bowfa being on gear chart instead. infusion mechanics means that there's no need to corrupted because you don't waste any shards not corrupting it

90 wc being done at 2t teaks instead, which gets another 1250 or so crystal shards from 73-90 woodcutting.
From what I'm understanding about the exp rates I am seeing around 200k exp 1.5t, 190k exp 2t dropped (assumed lvl 99) so the 5.4 mil exp is about 1-2 hours difference

so if you have nox hally from rancour stick with that, otherwise turn bowfa into saeldor

and then tent whip / saeldor / nox hally come into play

where if you got hally & rancour already, then get the blessing whatever your fastest way is, if you didn't, 2t teaks between that and hydra

and do the kraken CA's before that too

so two ways to get out of 2t teaks

and 2t teaks bridge the gap to get you closer to BIS for tob/ultor

[tacit crow]

Turning Bofa sounds like a terrible idea still even with corruption progress. Don't you lose that progress?

[chilly ruin]

yes

[tacit crow]

And it's not like crystal shards lose value after you corrupt Bofa. You still need shards for armor and tons for divines

[craggy granite]

you use 2000 crystal shards to corrupt bowfa which gives enough charges equal to what otherwise would be 200,000 uses which is like 130 hours of continuous use

[flint pebble]

dropping teaks instead of banking them for planks?

[craggy granite]

yeah, is it critical to bank construction exp when kingdom exists?

[flint pebble]

depends how you value gp, that's 50k teaks or about 12.5m gp at kingdom

[craggy granite]

12.5m gp at kingdom doesn't sound that bad? do people have any issues with gp at that point esp pre-mega rare?

[quiet schooner]

Banking teaks at prif gotta be trolling

[craggy granite]

the exp rate for banking logs and doing 1.5t was written at 140k btw

200k exp is w/o banking those logs

from what i saw in ironman skilling discord

so it's not like i was comparing the banking logs method to the not banking logs method

i was saying both aren't banking logs there

and you get 1250 crystal shards for doing 73-90 wc at priff 2t instead

[tacit crow]

2t takes time to set up?

[chilly ruin]

i think all of this is secondary to considerations on the time save of having saeldor over whip vs the time cost of obtaining additional shards

[tacit crow]

Yeah regardless of how/what you do with shards, dismantling Bofa into blade is almost always a terrible idea until you have shadow/tbow (maybe eye/tbow works nowadays) but point still stands

[fickle drum]

u would do 90-99 at 1.5t and then send mahomes

also reading reddit comments, if you wanted a more casual friendly chart, an option could be ordering it by what loses the least amount of time while giving you the most stats for the next boss

could put moons in before barraging or smth

[lunar lodge]

If someone wanted a "casual" chart it begs the question of why they even want a chart at all.

[indigo hollow]

Eh, I get it. It’s nice to have a progression laid out where you can chart your progress and see what’s next, even if the order isn’t a “good” one efficiency-wise

[hybrid blaze]

I think people just want to do the content they like but also want to be complimented for choosing that progression and tracking the items they get

[hollow cobalt]

Yeah but also like if you want a chart that's different from this one, you might as well make one yourself

Or just ignore the parts you don't wanna do

[hybrid blaze]

if someone made an interactive gear progression with all the stuff people were going to do anyway people wouldnt have to question their choices at all

in my mind that's the primary goal

fwiw we have interactive item trackers and overview sheets, theres a nice one linked in #1052266500041478246

[tacit crow]

Could add an FAQ (Want something more casual?)
-skip the stuff you don't want to do, and add in whatever you want to do that's missing)

[hybrid blaze]

its just not a geat progression because it doesn't claim to tell people what to do

its only an overview

ladlor is already adding a faq, which I personally consider to be a bit of a mistake but wcyd

[craggy granite]

Being able to check how the gear upgrades actually save time

For whatever grind

[opal dagger]

There literally is a skip option on the website now too

[indigo hollow]

I think the issue is that a lot of the people who would want a “casual” chart don’t have the game knowledge to put one together themselves, or they just want to be told what to do

[hybrid blaze]

as soon as there's a significant new drop itll be a pain in the ass to maintain

[hollow cobalt]

I just leave shit blank when i fill it in just for fun on my baby hc, although ig skipping stuff like mixed hides is kinda cute just to clean it up https://i.imgur.com/EOkiXeY.png

[indigo hollow]

I’m not defending these people as much as trying to understand where they’re coming from

[hybrid blaze]

its turning from a chart to a guide, and I can personally attest to the commitment and work that it is to maintain one of those

you'll also get all the same players currently upset with tiles now nitpicking the reasons

[craggy granite]

👍

[hybrid blaze]

I am not sure adding a faq is a net gain

[tacit crow]

Yeah I meant just add it as a question to the FAQ

[craggy granite]

Being able to get a loadout into wiki dps based on acquired items

[hybrid blaze]

well its not a single cause. Some people are genuinely trying to learn but cant click the discord link for some reason

other people have their counter-arguments ready and want to know if that's already been considered

[craggy granite]

If that’s doable

Might be worth something

[hybrid blaze]

seriously though I can definitely see how some players might be surprised and want to find out why their personal expectation differs from the chart

but I'm not sure a faq will fix that

the reasons people have for choosing some progression for themselves are very diverse

you're not going to cover those in a faq realistically, and it's precisely the obvious stuff that doesnt really benefit imo

the answers to like "wow that agility tile" and "why fire cape so late" and "is this pre-varlamore you forgot moons and also barrows" are imo well known and I doubt a faq will change many minds there tbh

while the more nuanced questions are likely too numerous to include

[hollow cobalt]

I mean they're already in the faq

[hybrid blaze]

the faq was added today, can't really judge the impact of that yet

[hollow cobalt]

oh lol

[hybrid blaze]

we'll see if it helps, I hope so

[remote sun]

that faq isnt on the website i believe/older version is

[hybrid blaze]

ohhh this is the pin in this channel, mb

thats a few months old

I thought ladlor was adding a faq to the site today

[remote sun]

https://www.ladlorchart.com/pages/faq.html

[hybrid blaze]

work in progress then

[tacit crow]

I doubt the people that ask these questions would read the FAQ, but could add this

"why is XYZ item not here, can I go for XYZ item instead?"

-sure it's not efficient, but go for it.

[full panther]

top 10 most frequent questions seem reasonable to address

at not THAT much extra labor

but ill admit that sepulchre one today has been a slog

[hybrid blaze]

sure, im just not convinced itll change many minds

the answer is already readily available and posted like 30x in the reddit thread

[dire zephyr]

wait is 98 agility really only 300k magic exp?

[opal dagger]

I have to imagine that’s not including alching

[dire zephyr]

ye must be

shouldnt the alching exp be included considering thats one of the main objectives

[tacit crow]

Also prob depends on how much you fletch/alch. But I'd imagine most of the time is alching if you are doing at an efficient time in progression

[full panther]

oh i've made a mixup

BRUHSailer uses 3.2m obtained

the Parasailer sheet lists only that from the portals

[novel sable]

Dumb question but is LB really that important before the big slayer grind?

[somber dagger]

Its very good for halberd spec in barrage task

And most times better then b ring on melee task

Proboly more importen after slayer changes

You can skip it, but it's great

[novel sable]

Do we bring a melee switch to barrage tasks to chally spec?

[dire zephyr]

think most ppl bring a 3-4 way with the chally

can wear some str gear like boots and neck cuz u dont have the mage gear for those slots yet as well

[novel sable]

Given that I'm only running solo ToA at 250-300, I'm questioning the efficiency of trying to get LB

[somber dagger]

300 is fine pre fang, can do higher but its still fine

i guess the new jewel you can also push higher invo, but gotta learn the raid at some invo no?

[round knot]

actually i just got the jewel and seems pretty bad it wont change anything

personally im just camping for lb and fang cuz i feel like there aint much that could make grinding out a fang/lb faster atm (other than getting a fang lol)

like how would grinding out slayer now help me in getting these?

im doing 350 with bowfa+hasta, could still do higher

[somber dagger]

excatly ye, what are you waiting for tyro?

[round knot]

well i guess the new mage staff could change something

[somber dagger]

for what?

[round knot]

sorry im clueless i just remember hearing someone mention it might be better than bowfa at warden for example

im just spitballing lmao

[somber dagger]

maybe it is, maybe not, how much would you pay for the dps increse?

[round knot]

but anyway i think getting LB at where it is in the chart is cool, i dont personally see much reason to delay it

[novel sable]

Skill issue 😂

[real yacht]

Is there any reason to rush hasta? What's it used for besides baba in toa?

[fickle drum]

I think with it coming up all the time, it's pretty reasonable to assume optimizing "for the most stats at every point in time" is a relatively common goal for progression

and it's not all that drastically different from optimizing for spending the least amount of time to max gear

there's also a very good reason why newer players would want to progress relatively efficiently while also making sure that content is as easy as feasible

I don't think overall there's much harm in creating a 2nd chart that focuses on a completely differently optimized progression & then telling ppl they can use it but the minor improvements to make the route easier come at the cost of a significant amount of time

[indigo hollow]

Keep in mind this is not factoring in the confliction gauntlet passive nor eye specs

[fast swan]

is solo yama reasonable? or just try to find duos

[real yacht]

I've been doing like 6:30 solos i like it. Alot of room to improve for the Greg fly

But I throw duos in when I need a break

[round knot]

no reason to not rush hasta, u need it to make dragon hunter lance so its never obsolete

and btw u never use hasta at baba

[real yacht]

What's standard bowfa?

[round knot]

yeah

[real yacht]

Ok well I guess I figured that out on my own lol I did the calcs and wasn't impressed so then what's the use if the wep pre 95?

[round knot]

its just most likely your best standard melee weapon

[real yacht]

Seems silly to not just sit toa and get fang at that point

[round knot]

well if you mean instead of hasta, that makes no sense cuz you need hasta anyway lol

[west nexus]

you use it on 2/3 of the wildy bosses also

for vw

[real yacht]

Ahhh ok.

[round knot]

u wont get hasta any faster later on compared to early with bowfa

[real yacht]

Scobo 0 effort compared to altar door

• higher dps

[west nexus]

only takes 5(?) hours to get aswell

[real yacht]

That's fair

[west nexus]

on rate atleast

[round knot]

isnt scobo just the same dps

[real yacht]

I was just curious i didnt follow the chart til post araxxor so I was curious i also skipped vw as I didnt see a major use when using burning claws

[round knot]

but i have no idea how big the no effort part is cuz imo bowfa zammy is no effort

[craggy granite]

i thought scobow was better dps than bowfa at zammy, might be arrows dependent

[real yacht]

I mean it's literally spec afk 4 attacks spec.

Dead zammy

[round knot]

ya ofc its arrows dependant im sure its better with dragon arrows

[real yacht]

My only guess was it was used for araxxor

[craggy granite]

i mean, you don't have infinite spec there till lightbearer

[drowsy ore]

Iirc rune arrows Scobo was better than bowfa at zammy

[round knot]

my memory was that bowfa is a tiny slight sliver better than rune arrows scobo but basically the same

[drowsy ore]

93 range slayer with anguish

So til

[real yacht]

Interesting. Wouldn't expect that

But ammy should obviously pass that yes?

By 2 max hits

[dreamy whale]

Really glad we have the faq ladlor thank you it's great

The fire cape part will probably induce more reddit rage, saving a single hour having got 98 agility and grinded cg for 70 hours is quite funny to read

[inland cosmos]

I think one of the biggest issues with the firecape step that a lot of people ignore for the chart is just that you dont have any good range weapon nor armor before cg to do the firecape with

[craggy granite]

msb/yew shortbow fire cape isn’t a bad thing. It’s more that being stuck doing fire cape just because you can isn’t worth it

Just because you can do it early at that point, doesn’t mean you should

I think that doing a crystal bow/msb fire cape to not be stuck at cg would be a super reasonable time too

I’d tell someone “hey, do whatever you’re doing, but it’d be good for you to get a fire cape before you go back into slayer and do td’s & demonic gorillas”

[inland cosmos]

how long does a green dhide yew shortbow with rune arrows firecape even take?

with like 60-70 range

[craggy granite]

probably like 1-2 hours but i also assume people would be doing it more carefully and chill

with higher stats I'd probably just be clicking everything

[fickle drum]

you're also fucked on supplies early on

that was the reason I stopped trying to go for a fire cape before progressing my acc relatively far

[hybrid blaze]

Sounds good, go for it!

I'd be curious to see what you come up with

Sorry I don't really follow the comment about stats per step, but maybe it'll become clear as you show the route

[somber dagger]

Is the antlar guard worth getting before chinning?

[drowsy ore]

You’ll have to do the maths on the middle tier custodians kills per hour with expected drop rate, and then how many chins saved the +2 range str boost is over the 70-92 range step is

[craggy granite]

it's 67 slayer req to get the antlar potentially

for a 1/800 chance

doing it off task probably not worth

unless there's a really good use for huasca seeds right around then

[hybrid blaze]

I havent run the numbers but my guess is that you only do them on task for 67 slayer through 100cb, and not offtask

also keep in mind duradel doesnt assign them

so the window to get them is very limited

if you get them, nice. If not, I suspect its best to ignore them

[craggy granite]

You'd also likely not block nieve tasks with the slayer changes

like right now, do w/e you can, but it'd be harder to figure it out

slayer points are going to be tougher to figure out

might be worth sticking with nieve post lvl-100 slayer to keep the block list for a bit?

[drowsy ore]

The task is 100% worth doing until 100combat, you’d just need to be lucky to get it in the right timeline

[craggy granite]

with the block list and slayer point changes, until you can start getting a block list for duradel it might be worth sticking with Nieve

for a little bit longer, cause the blocks won't work for both

someone probably would need to run the numbers on that

but that is probably impactful for 73-80 slayer in the future for anyone who hasn't done that now

[quiet schooner]

U would just melee it if u did it before chinning

[hybrid blaze]

I seriously doubt it. Especially if hopping masters means building a block list all over, you probably want to save points by not making a nieve list and then transfering to duradaddy as soon as you're able

[fickle drum]

I'll start working on it when I get back home tomorrow

[inland cosmos]

I suspect it won't be dramatically faster, but it might be an option yes

it's not really feasible for worse players tho and the chart has never been designed for the most skilled players

by feasible I just mean that they would spend more time getting the cape by constantly dying to achieve it as supposed to just delaying it or ranging it

[chilly ruin]

that was my plan to go for it early

[sleek prawn]

Is sepulchre as strong for the account after cg aswell? Or do you mainly benefit from it pre cg grind?

[inland cosmos]

the reward is static, so doing it as early as possible is the most beneficial for the account

but its ehp agility xp so its never bad to do

[sleek prawn]

Yeah true

[hollow cobalt]

If you don't need the agility xp for something in particular, my hot take is that it's very bad

If you don't value the agi xp, would you do an activity that gives you 300k in cash/alchs/runes and 1.3 ranarr seeds per hour?

If you do value the agi xp, this is the best method and everything else is bonus

[inland cosmos]

that is a hot take

but one I somewhat agree with

you wouldn't do sep if you didnt value the agility xp

[sleek prawn]

I’m already 89 agi so I don’t value the xp at all

That’s a good take

[indigo shadow]

Except it's closer to 400k in raw alchs, 6 ranarr seeds, 800 blood and 800 soul runes per hour when looting floor 4 and 5...

Of course it looks bad if you just underestimate the value by 75%

[fossil flame]

i think its pretty skipable would priortize 90 rc instead personally for wraths

i only struggled a little bit with ppots gp u can make up from cg and so many other things imo

sep is kinda all or nothing loot only starts existing at 92 agil

its really good to do if u can manage the grind

[polar void]

Sep is incredible if you're thinking long-term

[hybrid blaze]

This seems too high

[hollow cobalt]

whoops i just did last chest

[hybrid blaze]

Yeah to be clear my napkin math is not very far below these numbers but not quite all the way there

Maybe they're accurate but it seems high to me(?)

If you don't value agility xp I don't think sep is good

[indigo shadow]

You're right, I was including the prayer coffin on floor 4 which shouldn't be included

Getting to 92 is a big slog, after that it becomes fun to see the loot stack up IMO

[hybrid blaze]

I was wondering about the laps/hr rate more, or, equivalently, the xp rate. Looting costs time so you don't get anywhere near ehp rates

Its still efficient because of the loot, it's just not raw xp

[indigo shadow]

90-93k/hr or 7.7-8 laps including the paused timer sections and reset. It's doable, but not much room for mistakes.

[hybrid blaze]

I think that's optimistic including looting

seems fine to me

[quiet schooner]

u can get all nex cas except duo/trio in mass in like 30 mins or less

so its like a free 35 points?

[sleek prawn]

Just considered yama for wraths? I’m really just in the skilling mood at the moment

[sleek prawn]

Okay so sounds like I’m not missing a ton by not doing it atm

[unborn night]

Is serp useful these days

[quiet schooner]

Never has been

[tacit crow]

It's useful to provide 20k scales

[unborn night]

So u dont even make a serp at all?

[tacit crow]

Id save the visage cause you never know, but yeah don't really need it

[chilly ruin]

its surprisingly tanky but that isnt helpful often

[unborn night]

So happy to finish zulrah until i run out of scales i guess

Serp will just be a no time item while getting scales long term

[chilly cove]

it's useful to venom things, like cheesing the TD's triple kill CA

[hybrid blaze]

its bis at pyramid plunder

[tacit crow]

I wouldn't even use it there with how often you search for the mummy nowadays

Isn't it -10 scales Everytime you get hit

[fickle drum]

been thinking abt it more and the only real sensible reroute for a more casual progression is just "do slayer"

[hybrid blaze]

I couldn't disagree more 😅 people suck at slayer, a guide that emphasises this means people will do 10-15k slay xp/hr methods all the way

You'd at the very least need to introduce gear and milestones and upgrades for slayer progression

[fickle drum]

yupp

the other alternative is just hit gem crab for one million hours before starting your account

[hybrid blaze]

I ran into this a lot like 5 years ago, skillcord was all in on this at the time

"barrage slayer is the only thing that matters because you afk 99 in all melees before starting slayer"

"no you just do tob before slayer because you have max melees anyway"

to me this seems like a shit route but you could try to revive it

[fickle drum]

it's such a bad route but the bottleneck on progging differently than ladlor chart while it still making any sense are melee stats

I just didn't pvm until I was almost maxed so that didn't register as hard

[hybrid blaze]

I mean we have a couple of alternative routes ready, including rcb toa to shadow

what people really want is something that has no long skilling grinds at low level, includes early barrows and moons, and still has some gear progression

you dont need to hard commit to afking melees for that

kind of like a tourism guide to pvm, instead of an efficient progression

[fickle drum]

yeah I was trying to optimize towards making cg/delve/toa as easy as possible

[inland cosmos]

I guess calling it a vibe based progression isn't actually incorrect

[fickle drum]

but rly the answer is just get better combat stats

[inland cosmos]

the problem with such a route even if one was constructed is that it would still have people who it was designed for not like it because specific parts would not cater to them specifically

[hybrid blaze]

Sorry, I don't see it. I'm not at all a fan of the "afk to high combats before pvm so that stats arent an issue" route

I think this is both inefficient and not fun, and I dont see who the target audience would be

[fickle drum]

yeah that's why I'm saying the actual route would be optimizing a slayer rush type of strat

[hybrid blaze]

yeah thats why I've never bothered to try to help make anything like this.
Incidentally, its also why BRUHsailer ends where it does. At that point most of the dependencies between activities are resolved, and people can go do what they want in any order

Some orders are still more efficient than others ofc, but by the end of BRUHsailer I'm done handholding

[inland cosmos]

yeah that is fair

[fickle drum]

which was very easy for me personally cuz I just did all my skilling before pvm pretty much

[inland cosmos]

I do wonder if something like a progression tree path would be reasonable to create?

or if it would be any helpful at all

probably would have the same problems

and be a nightmare to upkeep

[hybrid blaze]

I think that would be helpful

yeah upkeep would be a bitch and a half

[fickle drum]

I think the big issue really is that ppl don't know how to do hard content and want to do easy content before hard content

[hybrid blaze]

also I wonder how many debates itd actually help solve. Like, if I put 20 bosses behind the bowfa node, and put barrows at the place where I think it's good, arent we just rehashing the current debates

[fickle drum]

but the easiest & most beneficial content is getting ur stats up

[inland cosmos]

that does sound rather reasonable now that you say it out loud

wanting to do bosses for where they are intended to be killed

rather than when they are the most efficient to kill

[hybrid blaze]

you could make a difficulty progression, kind of greedy-algorithm always search for the next boss you could unlock with current stats and gear

taking into account learning curve of the boss

[inland cosmos]

thats not a bad idea

[hybrid blaze]

but not taking into account future possible upgrades or benefits of the drops much

[fickle drum]

yeah I was thinking about organizing around CA tiers loosely

[hybrid blaze]

e.g. cox quite early, even though late cox is much better

in my opinion the CA tiers are a crapshoot

[fickle drum]

that's why I said loosely

[hybrid blaze]

there's a lot of master and a bunch of grandmaster ones that are very doable around the time you get piety

and some medium ones that are tough as nails

[fickle drum]

but even then the big question imo is how do you ever make it not just revolve around slayer first

[hybrid blaze]

I think a 'get-me-to-the-next-boss' type of progression might be very popular

[fickle drum]

cuz efficient slayer is really good as long as you have other skills relatively high

[chilly ruin]

barrows don’t get meleed took about as long as my first pnm kc

[fickle drum]

another issue is just that barrows is really bad

[hybrid blaze]

yeah youll have to have some pretty arbitrary skilling and slayer grinds woven in

like, when do you get zenytes?

how do you source ppots?

wheres occult?

[chilly ruin]

id be interested in knowing how you route in sarachnis uniquely, bc its resource heavy for a mid game item

[hybrid blaze]

if you really go greedy-search those are likely very very late

[chilly ruin]

maybe you don’t have the answer to that yet

[hybrid blaze]

although we know its good to do them early

[inland cosmos]

moonlight moths ofc

[hybrid blaze]

come to think of it this sounds like how reddit already works

[chilly ruin]

[hybrid blaze]

anyway

[fickle drum]

I think you just wouldn't cuz hasta supersedes it in any route

[hybrid blaze]

ive gtg for a bit but I'd be curious to define a list of bosses and organise them in a rough sequence

for each deciding whether they make the cut at all, throw in some skilling and slayer milestones too, then search for which are easy

[chilly ruin]

i might be misunderstanding the aim a bit then bc i thought you’d include essentially all without judgements like that

[hybrid blaze]

yeah I think including all is better

[fickle drum]

what I've basically been talking about is optimizing around a vague metric of "you can lose X hours getting better gear if that gear comes from easier content than the next big milestone"

[inland cosmos]

with all included is a good starting point

[fickle drum]

& things like sarachnis and barrows would get filtered by that kind of metric

[craggy granite]

How much melee exp is Yama completion

[hybrid blaze]

Fwiw I'm literally just thinking of sorting bosses by "in my current situation, which boss can I most quickly get to next". This still involves assumptions on player skill, minimum 'reasonable' requirements, and how you value pvm rushing versus skilling, but in the end I was just thinking of a greedy-search list through all bosses

[fickle drum]

yeah I was also thinking abt a "reverse efficient" type of order where the goal is to spend the most time pvming

[hybrid blaze]

the lower your dps the longer you get to enjoy it

[fickle drum]

like 8m or so?

[fickle drum]

would still be weighted against the vague goal of "not dying"