#Gear Progression Chart

1 messages · Page 6 of 1

fossil flame
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thats true ye but u still have to range was my point p2 wardens olm head p2 wardens etc

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and thats an exterme version to say eye can replace bowfa i think is much harder arguement

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like if u still need to range with shadow then u definitely will with eye

hollow cobalt
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My stupid version of that was fang replacing bowfa on release

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Which is about equally valid I think

fossil flame
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ye the discussion just speculation but its fun to theorycraft imo

hybrid blaze
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I ran a few calcs out of curiousity, and I got terrible accuracy numbers. Like, 20% on 300RL zebak, 30% on graardor. I'm sure the weapon can be strong, a 3t mage weapon with a max hit of almost 30 definitely has room in the meta, especially if it's somewhat easy to get. But I don't think it'll be a progression defining milestone

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Maybe I plugged in the wrong numbers though, or I'm thinking of the wrong weapon or enemies

quiet schooner
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Did u plug in the new torm upgrade

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That probably brings it up

hybrid blaze
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No, I used old torm. But with under half the dps of a bowfa I don't think a single upgrade is gonna cut it

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I thought I was already being generous assuming eternals and occult

indigo hollow
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Magic is just terrible on Zebak unless you have a shadow (which even then is not BIS)

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I have the accuracy in a 300 in max mage with the new wand, treads, and gauntlets at about 35%

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Wait actually that was with heart, with salts it’s 38.5%

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Still very bad DPS

tall lark
mellow matrix
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if ur gunna skip bowfa its stuff like zebak, bandos and p4 warden you gotta look at

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it wasnt about showcasing its strength

tall lark
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ok this might be the 4th time today but yeah i never said this could be a bowfa skip

mellow matrix
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cuz those are places where atlatl rcb scobo bp arent gunna rly cut it

tall lark
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its just speculation how this can be yet another W for alternative routes. very good weapon

mellow matrix
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well (imo) they are fine if you rly love toa

hollow cobalt
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RCB/whip/fang would all be "ok" enough at bandos

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And you gotta do less bandos now

tall lark
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and p4 warden dps is very good. i was calcing it to be better than bowfa

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unless im forgetting

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bandos u can skip

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so zebak u can use atlatl i suppose

mellow matrix
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yeah i think the play would be just get shadow then shadow bandos. or fang bandos if ur a gamer

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bone dagger, or do duos with horn

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or i guess its not as important to reduce def is it if you are using eye on warden

tall lark
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to be fair i was speculating they would design ayak to be post yama so u could have oathplate already in this route

hybrid blaze
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if it's not good at these early-mid bosses there's no benefit to going for it early

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just another pretty late weapon then

tall lark
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i think theres many ways to look at it. all this new stuff could potentially open up a vastly different route altogether. all that time put into bandos and godsword shards could be put into something else

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is rushing toa for fang a big deal these days? hard to say

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they might even be changing metal dragon tasks to 20-50 minimum now

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i would personally still rush bowfa but what if in the time it takes to get bowfa+gwd+fang someone could get demonbane+oathplate+ayak

craggy granite
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the question is more of what comes next after that, cause ayak I don't think lines up into getting Fang

tall lark
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well for what its worth toa wise i was looking earlier think it was better than bowfa at everything in toa aside from zebak

opal dagger
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well you can do zulrah right

craggy granite
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maybe something like do zammy gwd get hasta after TDs, and zulrah for blowpipe

opal dagger
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pretty sure eye is better than shadow for zulrah

tall lark
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zulrah it destroys bowfa

craggy granite
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doing zulrah for blowpipe and then running toa sounds reasonable

opal dagger
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if anything it seems like a tob route but tob's uniques are ass compared to toa

craggy granite
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am i missing something about that

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yeah, hasta for tob, but still doesn't have a slash weapon

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though after completing all of td's, you probably have a good slayer lvl

tall lark
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also tds + yama should give you very high melee stats

craggy granite
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something like hasta -> whip -> tent whip -> tob

somber dagger
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Proboly not worth waiting for NOx Hally?

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Proboly kinda ass finding team without it?

opal dagger
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tent whip is fine for tob

craggy granite
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doing 92 slayer & rancour before tob with the route sounds like throwing

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cause it sounds like it rushes tob

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"rushes"

opal dagger
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either way it sounds way worse than the current meta since toa's uniques are actually helpful

tall lark
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anyway all this speculation does hinge on the drop rates and the requirements for the boss which we have no idea. honestly idk if anyone even knows what is the big ticket item from ayak. it could be the boots or staff i have no idea how jagex judge it

craggy granite
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Not having something for Inferno and not having TOA as comfortable options sounds meh

somber dagger
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But eey I'm always wring

hollow cobalt
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Can do inferno with anything, it's just cozy to have the bowfa

craggy granite
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going for tob without maxed combats and inferno sounds like getting a team is going to just be harder

tall lark
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i feel like the boots could have the lowest drop rate cause its basically bis everywhere. but idk

craggy granite
somber dagger
craggy granite
tall lark
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its still pretty pog even without the upgrades. iirc it just has 1 less str but still great for magic and range

opal dagger
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it doesn't have less str since you wouldn't have prims in that case

craggy granite
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For myself, I'm still going for Bowfa, I might also go for Ayak earlier too

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having everything sounds fun

tall lark
opal dagger
tall lark
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the convo was about having to grind cerberus to make it useful

craggy granite
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bowfa ayak oathplate sounds fun

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to have "early"

tall lark
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i think we are just misunderstanding what eachother is saying

opal dagger
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I see

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The base boots are already insane if you don't have cerb boots so I don't see how anyone could be sad to get it.

tall lark
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im saying its basically bis for mage and range even without the upgrade, it just has slightly less str than prims

opal dagger
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The space saving is huge and effectively is bis since you don't bring 3 boots to any raid

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The argument that prims are great is true in some setups

somber dagger
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A bit overpowered

craggy granite
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For me, as someone who is at CG right now, I'm doing bowfa, then back to slayer & skilling
gwd at some point for bgs
and then there's some combination of TDs, Zammy gwd
then toa, yama, and new boss

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I think that being able to have multiple pvm upgrades available that kind of match the time available is a good thing

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and it's a lot less locked into any single piece of content

somber dagger
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My biggest issue is that if it's a late game boss, the staff and guanlet feels weird placed, since toa 400+ is pretty midgame

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And shadow is not to long grind right

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Proboly ain't doing this boss before toa for shadow?

hollow cobalt
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Guess we'll have to see what the reqs are like

craggy granite
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shadow and getting vitrus & ancestral is a while though

opal dagger
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I'm curious, how much worse is a dcb with ruby dragon bolts compared to a bowfa at zebak

hollow cobalt
somber dagger
craggy granite
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true, either way, it sounds like yama & new boss can be done around the same time as TOA and that's a good thing

mellow matrix
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dcb is just a nonstarter anyway, you wont sustain bolts

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so may as well be rcb

opal dagger
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could be an alternative since now 200 rune dragon tasks are a thing and huey wand isn't terrible. Wouldnt call it meta though

hollow cobalt
mellow matrix
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you can just do a 4-5 minute zebak with atlatl/scobo/rcb its fine...

craggy granite
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i mean in terms of gear progression if you have demonbane

hollow cobalt
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And doing Huey is terrible

craggy granite
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can probably get that around the same time as doing toa, no?

hollow cobalt
opal dagger
craggy granite
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yama at least is an option, like the fact that my gear progression isn't tied to a 30 minute raid as much at that point

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hopefully

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just gives more options

somber dagger
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If its weak to crush, and blugdeon bis there, as shows in the trailer, worth to grind blugdeon? Kekw to hard to say probol

craggy granite
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cause sometimes not having that 30 minutes is real

hollow cobalt
umbral pasture
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Trailers are just random gear, no sense trying to read tea leaves from them

hollow cobalt
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Throwback to the hydra trailer with like max melee scy

fossil flame
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u guys should see the zulrah teaser they had a guy pulling up with hasta elypog (boss immue to melee dmg) hasta cant even reach

chilly ruin
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except lance is so close that theres no reason to rly

radiant pelican
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Can't wait for this to be updated post delve

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It's my fav part of pvm updates. Getting an updated chart

somber dagger
radiant pelican
somber dagger
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the boots arent that good pre shadow

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if its a 80 hours item

radiant pelican
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fair

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and the mage wep?

somber dagger
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proboly same place

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probly grind every item at the same time

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but idk the gunalet is useluss after shadow kinda

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nvm its +2 mage strenght

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or +6 with shadow 🙂

somber dagger
mighty bane
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what r u guys talking about

polar void
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They're prob talking about where the new delve boss items will lie in the chart

terse matrix
full panther
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the chart passed 100k counted page visits! Thanks for the enthusiasm and here is some visualized stats for those curious

image.png image.png
somber dagger
full panther
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there is some geopolitical fuckery in what is countries and what is not

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svalbard is not its own country per goatcounter anyhow

radiant pelican
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i can ignore tent whip if i have blade right

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salad blade

chilly ruin
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yes

mighty bane
elfin ruin
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Sorry if it's been asked, is dragon hunter wand worth going for at all?

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or is the ancient sceptre good enough to where it's not worth it?

hollow cobalt
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Gonna say no

elfin ruin
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cheers

mossy mantle
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I’m at the point where i’m grinding for lance before cox prayers, any chance it will be worth going for new wand before?

hybrid blaze
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nobody knows, its day 2

mossy mantle
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fair enough lol

quiet schooner
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I think doing any big pvm grinds post cg where u might use ranged before getting rigour is probably not worth it

somber dagger
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Would you use dwh everywhere with horn over bandos godsword?

slate dome
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Dwh kinda meh against things that already have low def

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Who you ghost pinging Sus

near pollen
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Where's Dom fitting into the chart then 👀

vague tusk
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there was a bunch of discussion about this in #ironman-discussion message earlier - kind of an open question as we don't know drop rates. certainly you want scorching bow first, but can you afford to wait until rigour+quiver or is it so important you get it before then? we'll need more info to be sure

sturdy jewel
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quiver at least doesnt look to be the biggest dps increase at Doom, if scorch bow + void, assuming you have rigour - the entry point to get a huge upgrade via the staff without needing tob or shadow does seem lower at a first glance with that gear if doable/drop rates arent awful

hollow cobalt
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Fundamentally the question is why do this for staff when toa exists

fossil flame
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esp with toa nerf i can see this being fast enough to get to be worth

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esp if ur getting chance at threads/gauntlets

hollow cobalt
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Would need hours for that

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And uh toa nerf was basically nonexistent

fossil flame
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like 30more hours then 400s with the sheet i think even if ur doing 500s

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and most ppl arent doing 500s they cba

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this grind doesint speed up unless u get tbow/zcb that only stuff that can speed it up

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but then ud do the cox without threads/gauntlets so thats the choice probaly

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maybe u dont stay for staff but prob for threads/gauntlet

hollow cobalt
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Treads are not that big at cox

fossil flame
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itd help more then cox if u do it right after rigour/quiver

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itd help toa grind/coxgrind having threads+gauntlets we dont know rates but i feel like thats a pretty good deal

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gotta be close imo either way

hollow cobalt
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Do we know anything about rates? Idk if there's any way to decide without that

fossil flame
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not yet no idt

mellow matrix
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i dont think it could be common enough or good enough (with the gloves considered too) to make cox for bow before toa for shadow make sense right

craggy granite
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I think that most impactful it’ll be is if I do this boss after TDs and first toa with lightbearer/fang

then I’ll be able to use it for a lot of other content that’d be relevant for me when I won’t have many alternatives available

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It looks like the time to get KC is fairly quick, and that makes it an accessible boss to do

quiet schooner
drowsy ore
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Isn’t confliction gauntlets the best item early? Or it is still mitigated by the fact that shadow comes online pretty soon

fossil flame
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then do mokha after with tbow

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i think thats what mad meant but not 100% sure

drowsy ore
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Well where does eye/ threads/ gauntlets save time at other content?

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Eye at zulrah and pnm

mellow matrix
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well cox

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if you were to cox first

drowsy ore
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Threads would be moreso for range and mage content

fossil flame
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threads would help u for toa shadow grind and chambers tbow grind when u have shadow

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threads+gauntlets

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u also get bowfa max hit pretty sure

drowsy ore
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Gauntlet buff shadow a bit

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And gauntlets pre shadow would seem to be for prayer scrolls cox/ and getting shadow

fossil flame
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these are 2 places i think make most sense imo

image.png
vague tusk
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wait why is quiver suddenly after inferno/oath/ultor? just for the slightly increased dps while meleeing during colo attempts? seems silly - colo first for wave solving experience seems like such a no brainer

fossil flame
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ye idt there any good reason honestly

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think u can route it in around same time as cape if not earlier

slate dome
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I imagine its bc you're using bofa for inferno and quiver does almost nothing for bofa

hollow cobalt
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Quiver doesn't do shit for any of those so might as well do it after

vague tusk
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if you assume immediate perfect execution of both pieces of content you might as well route them in immediately after bowfa using glory/str amulet - i think wasting less time to eating shit at late inferno waves would beat out by a mile time saved by slightly better melee gear at colo (when you really aren't meleeing much for first quiver anyway!)

mellow matrix
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i think the argument for quiver first is exclusively for practice tbh

hollow cobalt
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This is nonsense

fossil flame
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ye i agree idt oathplate/ultor is that important for colo but neither is quiver for bowfa

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quiver kinda awkward to cuz ppl feel inclined to get sgs and stuff to

slate dome
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idt the argument makes much sense

vague tusk
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is the route assuming you have 0 practice at capes, or complete practice? if complete practice, why so late? if 0 practice, why not route the cape that gives better and quicker practice earlier than the cape where practice is harder to come by?

fossil flame
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definitely more new player friendly

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its why rigour is pre infernal cape

slate dome
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In either scenario surely the logic would be the same though?

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Quiver doesnt help at that content, so do it after

fossil flame
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i like idea of quiver for inferno practice i think it is helpful and much better paced for ppl

vague tusk
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quiver doesn't help itself, but experience at colo helps at inferno a lot. it's like how 98 agility isn't required for practically anything in the chart, but the magic experience and gold you get as part from 98 agility helps a hell of a lot

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might as well get that practice first rather than get it later when it's less effective

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it means you're passing up on some melee dps for colo but that's laughably irrelevant compared to the practice

hollow cobalt
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Don't think the order of quiver Vs cape matters in any way from a learning perspective

chilly ruin
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mostly a mental battle i think

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surely those w cape/quiver practice also dont generally wait for ladlor chart to tell them to go if they know they can go sooner

hollow cobalt
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Yeah people who who can inferno probably either immediately send it after bowfa or earlier

craggy granite
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So yeah, people who can send the content kind of will do it asap for quiver & inferno

golden field
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i cant understand cg before fire cape? maybe its just me

craggy granite
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The amount of actual melee used up until then isn’t that much, cause cg isn’t gear dependent

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It is a direct upgrade you can get at any point

golden field
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no but surely stat reqs is lower for fire cape than cg? (noob)

craggy granite
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you can used mixed hide cape for similar benefits till then

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Going and doing the fire cape with bowfa will be much easier and faster

golden field
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ok i see,

craggy granite
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If you spent 5+ hours going for fire cape, or more, you could’ve done slayer or skilling and made actual progress on something.

south fern
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As a counterpoint, going for a welfare fire cape is fun and is a fun achievement. My first kill was 2.5 hours. Efficient? no. Fun? yes.

raven bluff
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do welfare inferno

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rcb all u need

quiet schooner
full panther
hollow cobalt
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Kinda hard to make a chart for something as subjective as fun, but you're welcome to try to make your own

woven nova
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Im gonna post it on reddit and disagree

opal dagger
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death,taxes and reddit disagreeing

dreamy whale
woven nova
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Jad will still one tap u anyways if u have jad hands

full panther
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2.5hrs is significantly deeper commitment so more nerves maybe, but 30 is also non-trivial

dreamy whale
full panther
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rather than the massive sepulchre grind
the sepulchre grind shits out the gp needed. not that familiar with bstaves tbh

dreamy whale
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ok, so its a case of getting a pretty big agility level inline with the gold you get from sep, but hold off on the big grind till later

plain cradle
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When can we expect DOM gear to be on the chart website?

indigo hollow
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Probably going to need to wait for rates to be revealed

round pond
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Is Fang/lb one of those cg like grinds where you only do that till you get the drops ? 93 slayer atm

hybrid blaze
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Yes

vague tusk
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At 93 slayer I really don't think you need to do ToA at all until much later (barring for like thread/elite cas if you don't have those) - fang's mostly to get over a hump where earlyish slayer's pretty bad but by 93 you've unlocked nechs, abbys, arraxytes+arraxor, and smokes which are all fantastic tasks so finishing up lance should be basically a cinch, and after lance fang doesn't really get used much.

zinc jewel
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How much GP is it roughly from 50-80ish; spirit tree, altar, basic jewelry box steps? And what kind of money making method, can thiev ardy knights with 88 thiev(?).

hybrid blaze
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there's gp/xp in #1052266500041478246, but ideally you'd be ready to pony up 30m+ for that grind

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ardy knights are considered a very bad method, even when fresh off tutorial island

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it sounds like you might benefit from looking into moneymakers more

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the big milestones for cons are 70, 75 and then 83

zinc jewel
hybrid blaze
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!faq

brisk ventureBOT
#
**FAQ:**

[Q: How good is the Bow of Faerdhinen?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What's a good low level moneymaker?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What are some good afk training methods?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What are the next upgrades I should go for/pvm progression list?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: Where do I buy bloods/deaths/natures/cosmics?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: How many inventories of gold ore to buy per world?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: I'm burned doing hourlies/dailies, should I stop doing them?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: I can't do the Seren fight, do you have any advice?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What's the best way to train crafting?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What's the best way to get dragon pickaxe?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What Corrupted Gauntlet method should I use?](#1052267908723654706 message)
[Q: What is the best way to slay abyssal demons?](#1052267908723654706 message)

zinc jewel
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Floor 3*

hybrid blaze
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no, sep is mostly great past level 92

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its still meta agility xp, but the loot takes a while to stack up

cursive flint
indigo hollow
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Fang’s good at hydra, though

cursive flint
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That was my thought

vague tusk
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I mean you can just use bowfa instead, or nhally/hasta if you insist on getting melee xp

quiet schooner
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Nhally is probably quite good at hydra

indigo hollow
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Fang is a good bit better than both of them, especially if you don’t have rigour

quiet schooner
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If ur 95 slayer already tho I'd just get lance and do cox for rigour

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Fang is pretty meh at cox

quasi juniper
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you have to kill hydra to get lance though

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Not that many times, but fang would save time there

quiet schooner
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Uh

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I kinda doubt it

fossil flame
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personally i think id have prefered bowfaing hydra its what i did

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main thing i felt i lost out on was alot of melee xp and i was already 99 ranged

indigo hollow
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Some of this depends on your melee levels, but if you’re 99 strength then fang is considerably better than bowfa

loud panther
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I feel like melee xp is less valuable nowadays with yama giving ~10m

quasi juniper
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The TD grind is also an extra source of melee exp that id not exist before

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I went like 2k rate for synapses so it was a significant amount

indigo hollow
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That’s probably true re: melee xp but I’m just talking about DPS

crystal narwhal
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5t hydra melee is pretty chill, 4t is a lot more effort

indigo hollow
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You also end up in melee gear for fang so you can send some juiced up bclaw specs

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Bowfa’s even more chill but I wanted to fall asleep when I was doing bowfa hydra

indigo hollow
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Could also be relevant whether you’re Turael skipping for hydra tasks or doing Konar slayer normally

cursive flint
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I imagine in this scenario I'd resume slayer (without fang) until lance/feros/dwh then toa to rigour then inferno then toa again with probably some occasional toa in there when I have time but rn I can basically only play on mobile so slayer seems more like the play but I was just curious

quiet schooner
fossil flame
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i skipped fang for slayer grind and it felt totaly fine its alot easier now though to get fang

indigo hollow
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Fang/lb are definitely better the earlier you can get them

polar void
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This conversation was so helpful to me as someone who is in this exact spot of decision making lol

vague tusk
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My original plan was to do the early ToA thing but I didn't get hasta until late 86, decided "eh might as well wait until trident", didn't get trident until ~93, decided "eh might as well wait until occult", then didn't get occult until 95. at that point i went into toa for thread+cas (and a lightbearer spoon) but no way in hell was I staying until fang. (the thought of learning insanity still scares me lol - either be tick perfect on skulls, tick perfect at killing all but one skull, or leave yourself at risk of insta death? nah nty). in retrospect i'm pretty glad i ended up being steered this way rather than trying to struggle through the fang drop rate much earlier

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at no point in any of this did i feel friction of "man slayer is slow"

round pond
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yeah im glad i asked the question about this since it basically took 93 slayer until i got burning claws (didnt want to grind vw because of spindel). i might stay at toa until a blue gem so my kq head grind isnt complete cancer

craggy granite
hybrid blaze
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Id do toa long before burning claws

unborn night
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When in meta would be eye of ayak/gauntlets

hybrid blaze
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Idk, maybe around rigour

frank mica
round pond
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Do I keep spamming the floor after the skull is gone?

craggy granite
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the moment the skull leaves

dreamy whale
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Trying to work out if I should be battlestaffing or just hitting hallowed sepulchre, the bruhsailer guide and ladlors seem to stand in opposition to eachother for which comes first between the "Get a load of nice POH Stuff, Dark Altar etc" step vs the sepulchre 98 agility step

craggy granite
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you get the skip iirc

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iirc you can get construction trained at sepulchre

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with the teak planks & adamant nails

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and if you keep up with that you get the construction level

dreamy whale
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mmm ok, and sep is a massive upfront grind to start making money also

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but its not like you need any of the poh stuff while you are doing it?

craggy granite
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gettin the dark altar would be really good for herb runs fwiw

dreamy whale
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it says its largely based on bruhsailer but this seems like quite a switch up and ladlors assumes a looot of battlestaffing

craggy granite
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basically split that all up with cg if you have that gp

dreamy whale
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oh for resurrecting em

craggy granite
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Yeah, honestly I had sote and did some cg there, knocked out the medium combat achievements and that got me the gp i needed

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but i wouldn't recommend that for people who y'know, don't have cg experience

dreamy whale
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yeah im a total noob its my first char since being a non member in 2008

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but I am very close to sote reqs

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feels like such a weird place to be so close to cg money (if im any good at it), also being able to start the hallowed sep grind, and then the classic bstaves being right there

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Even in the FAQ of this thread it says "Loot and passive XP from sepulchre are very strong early in the account, yielding about 45 k law/blood/soul runes" which saves you a cool 3M on your dark altar?

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idk maybe thats trivial money after some more progress

craggy granite
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sepulchre runes and alching there lets you get high magic, and start slayer without breaking the bank

dreamy whale
craggy granite
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idk, i'm at 79 agility and i've been pushing it off myself 🤣

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i wanna get quest cape and all of the agility exp from those and barb fishing

#

like i'm deviating and going my way, definitely more interested in trying out yama & mokha than sticking too much to the guide

dreamy whale
normal prism
still smelt
#

I enjoy Sep but I’m on mobile 95% of the time. I could do f1-f3 at Sep pretty good at mobile but f4 was way too frustrating so I did more staves. Ended up with a good chunk of thieving xp, crafting, and mage xp because of it as well.

#

And I’ll weave in Sep when I have computer time as I go.

fossil flame
#

ull be set for a decent bit imo after cg

#

and dont need crazy amount of extra gp to get to cg

somber dagger
still smelt
#

I can do f4 on my phone it’s just so inconsistent. Have to have my view distance all the way, makes it die fast and I’ll lag a bit here and there. Just very tilting lol despair

pure lily
dreamy whale
#

Surely people cant resist the untrimmed agility cape and go to 99 lol

#

or is farming 99 most of the time by then if you are keeping up with stuff

pure lily
#

Yeah, I had 99 farming by the time. At the end I just got sick of looking at Sepulchre

#

Loot was worth it though, still have ~400 ranarrs and I am already 75 slayer so

#

Also free 90 magic if u alch during

elfin ruin
#

I'm guessing i keep going for bc right?

image.png
hybrid blaze
#

Gz! I would, yes

elfin ruin
#

thanks 🙂 and ok

normal prism
#

Can anyone link me to the calcs for how much time titan prayers save at cg?

polar void
#

Is ring of endurance not reccomended to go for anymore?

#

or you just kind of hope you get it as you get your agility from 92-98 in sep?

loud panther
#

It was never too important tbf, just a nice to have thing

#

On the old chart it was shorthand for "gather supplies, sepulchre is the best way to do that"

polar void
#

why is sepulchre prioritized over other agility methods then? simply the alchs/ranarr seeds?

loud panther
#

Yeah its 3k+ prayer pots, 50m in raw gp+runes, and bis agi xp

polar void
#

the sanfews dont hurt either, ty

loud panther
#

Ye those are always nice

indigo hollow
#

Does not include any prep time saves

elfin ruin
#

my luck was something else today

hybrid blaze
#

very nice 😄

polar void
#

Good God man

craggy granite
#

I’m aware that hasta = good and worth going for, but any thoughts on just running toa now with arkan blade, the jewels will come in eventually that or fang

#

I figure that still want bgs so that probably means doing bandos and zammy

round knot
#

u can do toa just fine without hasta but i just dont see a reason why you would do that

craggy granite
#

I don’t remember time to get hasta, vs going for fang

round knot
#

u need hasta for lance anyway and lance is "mandatory"

craggy granite
#

👍

round knot
#

assumed you didnt realize that, makes sense to ask the question if you dont remember the lance thing

#

and btw time to get fang is something like 50 hours on average on a reasonable starting setup so like hasta+bowfa, doing 350 raid level

#

assuming you are already good at the content so no learning curve or anything

sharp hawk
#

If I’m looking at Ladlor’s progression correctly. We are going to bandos primarily for BGS now? Not so much BCP/Tasstes because now we are going after oath?

austere pecan
#

BGS is probably the reason why its still where it is yeah, but getting the BCP/Tassies is still a bonus

#

you need for torva, and its earlier than yama

sharp hawk
#

I want to learn melee Yama method but it seems like I’d be trolling in fighter torso and blood moon tassets?

#

So maybe I should go to bandos

austere pecan
#

probably doesnt matter

sharp hawk
#

My 8-10 minute mage only Yama kills are just too brutal time wise

#

And I’m burning through soul runes

chilly ruin
#

bandos is 0 offensive upgrade over torso + blood moon tassets tho

#

i dont think the def will matter too much

sharp hawk
#

Fascinating

tiny belfry
polar void
#

Do we have any idea how eye of ayak compares to bowfa for ToA at the 300-400 level?

#

Is bowfa still strictly better?

fossil flame
#

better on akkha/wardens if u bring good magic gear/switches ive seen

polar void
#

Is that a big deal to the current meta?

fossil flame
#

to hard to say without knowing rates and stuff

polar void
#

Considering the low barrier to entry for doing delve boss, I really want to know if it's worth getting before farming fang

fossil flame
#

they should hopefully be revealing rates in like 2-3days

#

personally im just waiting on extra changes as well to the boss before grinding it more

indigo hollow
#

I doubt it’s worth taking the extra mage switches personally

fossil flame
#

one nice thing about magic is u dont use nearly as much prayer

#

so u can bring more switches somewhat free

indigo hollow
#

If it were pre-changes where you needed to mage akkha I’d say absolutely take it and do 3t butterfly

#

But now I’m not super convinced

polar void
indigo hollow
#

Not sure tbh, I ran some calcs a while ago but most were in max

#

I think confliction gauntlets are pretty important to have iirc

polar void
#

Right, I'm assuming confliction gauntlets, possibly an occult, no magus ring and like bloodbark/ahrims

#

Is there a world where it makes bowfa actually less relevant or is that unrealistic atm?

#

If the answer is simply no fricken idea, that's also cool I have no clue how far along people are with their calcs/discoveries

indigo hollow
#

You’d be doing RCB Zebak if you don’t have a bowfa which doesn’t sound too fun

indigo hollow
#

The warden calc is comparing to 30 BGS as well

polar void
#

That is crazy

indigo hollow
#

Bowfa does win if you have rig

polar void
#

I have to imagine 3t means you can attack more often in p3 too, correct?

indigo hollow
#

On wardens

#

No you don’t lose ticks either way on P3

#

It’s just synced up with the attacks better

polar void
#

Ah ok

#

Considering how powerful conflict gaunts are too, is there any point in delaying delve grind once you have scobow + full void/anguish?

#

Surely it's worth getting all those items pre-masori/tbow/zcb anyway

indigo hollow
#

Yeah I don’t really see a reason to delay it, unless you want rigour. That answer might change if we find out rates are terrible pre-level 8 but idk

polar void
#

Yeah, I'd also assume wand is very strong for cox

indigo hollow
#

Yeah it slaps at olm

silent pasture
#

why is there so much arkan blade copium? is it actually half way decent?

indigo hollow
#

It’s decent, though it’s just worse than bclaws so it’s irrelevant as soon as you get those

#

There’s also the issue where the wiki calc is making them look better than they are by 1) not restricting the spec to slash and 2) not scaling the burn damage by your accuracy

#

Which makes them look better on high-def targets than they really are

hybrid blaze
#

what they are is a low level spec weapon that outclasses dds, which is pretty unique and powerful

indigo hollow
#

Yeah I like where it sits in the progression. Feels more like what they were describing in terms of power when they were polling bclaws tbh

flat flame
#

are there any tentative thoughts about where the new delve items fall on the chart? I scrolled some ways back but did not see anything. I understand drop rates can play a part we don't know yet, but tentatively speaking, right after rigour perhaps?

craggy granite
#

Feels like it’ll get the most bang for its buck and actually as something helpful if before grinding out mega rares/raids - though I’m not sure if that’s actually going to be “better” than grinding out the mega rares

#

Im probably asking a number of silly questions about when to sequence things because im at bowfa, and trying to line up my bossing

fossil flame
#

feel like personally it should be one of these places

image.png
craggy granite
#

I see myself using this while going for avernic, muspah for Venator bow, maybe zulrah, cox, and toa on the shadow grind.

Probably would keep it banked except for tob after that

And if I don’t have enough use cases lined up for it, I don’t know if it would’ve been worth

fossil flame
#

rigour is way to good for cox/toa imo

#

and mokha

#

if ur skilled/ rates are good though getting eye pre cox/toa sounds cool to idk

craggy granite
#

People are doing mokha with void 🤷

#

Probably having blowpipe first though makes sense, car phase

fossil flame
#

ye i think main thing is wiether u want to get rigour pre mokha or not

#

ive seen arguements to wait untill tbow even but i think items are to valueable for grinds before to not get pre tbow

craggy granite
#

I mostly wouldn’t want to only do them after 95 slayer

#

Is kind of what’s bothering me

#

Im more or less hating on slayer as much as I can

chilly ruin
#

likewise, drop info is like 3 days off atm tho

#

not sure wiki will get info theyre confident with first

fossil flame
#

rates really dont seem that rare imo like yama lvl grind maybe a bit slower

#

will know soon

craggy granite
#

Doing slayer prior to pvm probably makes sense if being optimal

From Cerb -> Araxxor -> Smoke Devils -> Hydra

I get that it’s probably not bad, but I’d prefer to be able to do raids effectively enough around those times and other bosses

fossil flame
#

ye just have fun send never know what might happen

#

hydra grind burnt me out i ended up getting rigour quite a bit before lance

craggy granite
#

vard, yama, duke, mokha, muspah, zulrah all sound doable whenever

#

What’d use as melee weapon?

fossil flame
#

i had blade of saledor

craggy granite
#

I’m at 700 KC cg right now, still no enh, but also lowkey want both

#

I’m trying to route around turning bowfa into saeldor for certain content

#

and then corrupting bowfa

fossil flame
#

think only very nice place to have blade really is tob

craggy granite
#

tob, vard

#

Ultor Ring and Avernic

fossil flame
#

hally pretty good at vard

craggy granite
#

Yeah, but slayer hater here

fossil flame
#

ye fair

craggy granite
#

I see myself doing yama then doing tob & vard with blade

serene egret
#

this is my plan as well

craggy granite
#

Probably will also do Mokha & Blowpipe too

serene egret
#

max melee with oathplate into blasting raids

#

bonus if u slash olm like a gigachad

craggy granite
#

blowpipe + saeldor vs bowfa fang(?) at cox for rigour

#

tbf, scaled raids might be the play there

#

I’d probably do Mokha + Bowfa 3+whatever raids for that

#

and just be the mage skipper

flat flame
serene egret
flat flame
#

and you always get a guy reminding you to stab xd

polar void
#

Getting the treads early would also be pretty sick for doing cox/shadow grind

craggy granite
#

in my head I have a route that's something like get two synapses, zenytes, and then tent whip then put a pause on slayer where I'll be going for the other things at the same time and every slayer upgrade will be a nice bonus

hybrid blaze
#

"get two synapses" is like 2.5m slayer xp

craggy granite
#

yeah, that's why i'm saying that's around 87 slayer

hybrid blaze
#

this is a huge grind

polar void
#

Isnt synapse 1/500

craggy granite
#

yeah, and having to do 87-91 slayer, cerb, araxxor, etc. before raids basically finishes off the skill

fossil flame
#

ye synpase seems really fast slay is just passive bonus

#

prob like 20-30hour grind for 2 synpase of straight tds

craggy granite
#

1 synapse for mokha gives cox, and zulrah -> tob route

#

yama off the second one before ultor

#

ultor and tob come after tent whip

hybrid blaze
#

I think the synapse rush is a bad idea, you're the fourth person in like three days who came up with it though

craggy granite
#

like in terms of these being available

#

that isn't even a synapse rush

#

this is 80-87 slayer

hybrid blaze
#

it sounds fun but I expect a dozen predictable complications

fossil flame
#

i dont really get downside u get good slay xp and extremely powerful weapons

#

and its fast

craggy granite
#

i'm not even saying "don't do demonic gorillas"

#

though tbh, can do those with fang instead

hybrid blaze
#

its not fast and you're postponing a lot of other upgrades to do this instead

craggy granite
#

with barrage tasks you're probably going to get emberlight and two synapses on the way to 87 slayer

#

what upgrades

hybrid blaze
#

by the time you are done with TDs you have lots of hours of slayer behind you missing important upgrades

hybrid blaze
craggy granite
#

all of those are before TDs

hybrid blaze
#

theres more but these come to mind right away

fossil flame
#

emberlight is a signifcantly bigger upgrade then tort for demon tasks

#

thats like main melee stuff no?

hybrid blaze
#

you really cant make first synapse into ember on this route though

polar void
#

Is the idea here to delay bowfa lando?

craggy granite
#

but also can do fang > emberlight at demonic gorillas

fossil flame
#

ye thats true

hybrid blaze
#

and after second you dont have many demon tasks left

craggy granite
#

No, I'm doing bowfa and all of this stuff pretty much per normal

fossil flame
#

but its not hard to route hasta its like 1gdemon task at zammy

hybrid blaze
#

expect 90+

#

this is just the current route, do your progresion to ToA, then add tormented demons to the list

#

finish them somewhere around 90 slayer

#

then catch up with the bosses you've missed

#

and then smoothly to konar, and then lance

craggy granite
#

you mean black demon tasks? Like if I get those I won't need to use arclight charges

hybrid blaze
#

and then you can pvm again

fossil flame
#

im not a big believer in fang route esp if they add changes arent we gona just block metal dragons?

craggy granite
#

maintaining those and doing barrage nechs

hybrid blaze
#

toa stays for lightbearer even if fang is dead

polar void
#

I'm also failing to see the value of fang at the point it is currently in the guide

#

As it is*

#

Hydra mainly right?

craggy granite
#

I'm at around 20 shards right now at 71 slayer once i skotizo totems

hybrid blaze
#

I see so many people treat TDs as if they are a breeze, instead of being almost 10% of all slayer xp to 99

craggy granite
#

going to do greater demon tasks first at zammy for hasta

hybrid blaze
#

there's no 'quick synapse so we can do demons after'

fossil flame
polar void
#

It'll be less worth with the slayer changes lumping metals together

#

But prob still worth, maybe

fossil flame
#

i dont see having alot of slay xp as a bad thing most of route depends on alot of slayer xp anyway

#

if anything ppl struggle to get slayer xp

hybrid blaze
#

its not about the task itself being a lot of xp

#

its a long task, you need multiple of them, and you'll get a lot of tasks alongside

chilly ruin
#

i think u struggle and then u get loads immediately very quickly

hybrid blaze
#

slayer is also packed with uniques and unlocks now

polar void
#

Right now I'm stuck bc I'm doing toa for fang, but I really need bgs and graardor won't drop it, ugh

hybrid blaze
#

it's a long journey, long enough you want many upgrades first

#

meaning the demonbane stuff comes late in progression, not early

polar void
#

I killed 900 TD's and had 2 synapse before 91 slayer, that seems about normal right?

craggy granite
#

Yeah, that's what I'm saying

#

I don't think that these are short grinds, I'm saying 91 slayer is long

hybrid blaze
fossil flame
#

we route insane amount of hours on vw for 0 slay xp early when u can get bclaws for toa to from grind and be good and get slay xp instead

hybrid blaze
#

im not a fan of vw, take it up with ladlor

fossil flame
#

feel like if tds gave less slay xp unironically it might be easier to say its decent

craggy granite
#

Yeah, we get tent whip and synapses before 91 slayer

hybrid blaze
#

no, the tds slay xp is just good. But its a long grind. If the droprate was 1/250 itd be easier to say its decent

polar void
#

Tbf, voidwaker was stronger in its niches when bclaw didn't exist

craggy granite
#

Yeah, but you should run those greater demon tasks at TD's when you can

#

and even if not immediately, i still imagine it's done before 91 slayer

fossil flame
#

i think lb is really good but u really have to strain alot of stuff to route toa early in general

#

u really have to believe in doing scuffed toa scuffed bandos scuffed zammy etc and vw or no spec wep toa

#

i think thats a hard sell to think i view toa rush same way u view synpase rush

hybrid blaze
#

the zammy and bandos is just good early, even if you take out toa

polar void
#

ToA without bgs SUCKS

#

Fang is very useful for CA's in general though

chilly ruin
#

where else are you using bgs early?

polar void
#

Nowhere

fossil flame
#

toa mainly

polar void
#

I don't have it, can you pray for me

craggy granite
#

can do td's and then go blade of saeldor & scorching bow and get faster kills

#

than arclight + bowfa

#

if swapping between bowfa + blade is on the table, then we have options

chilly ruin
#

that starts to get real annoying shards wise

craggy granite
#

Corrupting is a whole 900 extra shards, worst case around 200 shards would be lost?

#

I’d say plant Crystal trees and buy that

#

Crystal shards are a gp issue more than time otherwise

#

And youre probably profiting if you alch demonic gorilla loot

#

I think not corrupting bowfa and using scorching bow + blade of saeldor wins out over arclight + bowfa

#

Scorching Bow beats out bowfa at Zammy too

#

Doing bandos, td’s, fire cape/inferno with bowfa and then saeldor blade

#

I think covers that gap?

chilly ruin
#

did you know it costs 250 shards to revert a bow/blade to an enhanced

fossil flame
chilly ruin
#

its not the corrupt cost thats the issue

#

every swap is 350 shards

craggy granite
#

Nope, I didn’t know that.

chilly ruin
#

its not obvious at all

craggy granite
#

Around 30 crystal shards per crystal acorn and each weapon seed costs how much though?

chilly ruin
#

if you need shards the best option is thieving in my understanding

#

weapon seed cost scales down to a min of 150k iirc

serene egret
#

and i dont even think thats that unlikely

craggy granite
#

I think that going dry I have a ton of shards, but I don’t think that most people would have 6k+ crystal shards

#

Before bowfa

chilly ruin
#

im honestly not sure what the avg is

craggy granite
#

I’m at 700 kc, so I’m going to guess probably around 3000

chilly ruin
#

when i got bowfa i didnt even have the shards to finish my armour, but this was pre changes, and i got lucky

craggy granite
#

Probably a bit more

#

Aren’t zalcano and thieving like 100 shards/hr avg too?

hybrid blaze
#

zalcano is like 120 iirc? I'm not sure.
Thieving is 220

#

obviously both depend on lvl

chilly ruin
#

i dont really see the shard cost as worth it, blade is good, but maybe not that good

craggy granite
#

It’s much faster than getting 30 ancient shards for Emberlight

chilly ruin
#

at least in a typical progression route

#

well you still have to do that anyway, youre just delaying it

craggy granite
#

You get rid of that bottleneck

#

You can do TDs before demonic gorilla and not run into shard issues

chilly ruin
#

i think its a good question but the save from blade is just small enough that the cost to make doesnt likely pay off imo

craggy granite
#

with the shard changes I don't think people should be running into issues with swapping between the two, and if there are any I think that thieving/zalcano resolves those

having saeldor would be better for mob slayer tasks too than hasta/alternatives

chilly ruin
#

i mean, i'm assuming that shards aren't infinite, you want them for divines eventually, so the time spent to regain them should never be considered as 0 imo

#

so the question then becomes if saeldor over hasta saves that 3-4 hrs or whatever thieving

#

but in the context of this thread i dont see where it would even make sense to swap, assuming 1 swap and 1 swap back, without massively rearranging the progression chart accordingly

craggy granite
#

Saeldor over the course of just demonic gorillas probably doesn't save 3-4 hours, probably saves like an hour, but over the course of all the other melee slayer that becomes available, that's probably adding up

#

I think that yowasupppbra saying "what's right now is basically rushing toa, and that's not needed" kind of just made me want to actually explore that

in general I see a bit of a gap between 87-91 slayer, and trying to navigate that in a way to be as ready for raids/bossing as possible is of interest to me at least

quiet schooner
#

But it is nice for grinding tbow when u have a shadow so u don't have to do a boot switch

sturdy jewel
fossil flame
#

boot switch seems like weakest part its a stronger item then eternals that gives you shadow maxes and bowfa maxes and saves inv space

hollow cobalt
quiet schooner
#

Yeah that's what I'm saying it is like marginally good with a shadow

#

Without a shadow it just does nothing

fossil flame
#

bowfa max?

#

ppl grind magus ring for less

quiet schooner
#

Magus gives shadow like 4 maxes

#

Ok that's an exaggeration

fossil flame
#

u can get cloth and threads

quiet schooner
#

Yeah I mean those are both good with a shadow

fossil flame
#

i think ignoring bowfa max is still not really fair to the arguement its still a nice thing imo

#

esp for a mrare grind where ur mainly gona use it

polar void
#

The argument to not get treads before shadow/tbow grind would therefore be the same one that has you doing delve post megarares, but they're good enough that having them for shadow grind would be ideal surely

full panther
#

do we have the droprates yet?

opal patrol
#

wednesday

full panther
#

alright, id be happy to commit to including the items on the chart by the end of that day then

low stag
full panther
untold mortar
#

toa

#

toa

drowsy ore
#

There only seems to be 6 upgrades for delve, so it would logically fall into one of the 6 spots

  1. Post Scobo
  2. Post rite of vile transference
  3. Post rigour
  4. Post quiver
  5. Post tbow
  6. Post masori
quiet schooner
#

U don't use masori in delve

serene egret
#

think i'd do it basically as soon as possible with scobo

radiant pelican
#

If you do go for eye/gauntlets post scobo, would you just continue to use bloodbark armor with them?

opal dagger
#

Don’t see why not

drowsy ore
#

If you did it;

  1. Post Scobo could could skip trident with eye, use gauntlet for 100 yama

  2. Post rite, use it to skip magic fang (eye) at zulrah, and use eye and gauntlet at cox for rigour and augury

  3. Post rigour, you wouldn’t use eye at inferno, gauntlets is good instead of occult, wouldn’t use eye at yama, but depending on setup, use gauntlets, not useful at vard, but useful at Colo and mage role ToB

  4. Post quiver, you’d use eye and gauntlets for toa until shadow/ can pivot to cox instead of hard camping toa

  5. Post tbow, you’d use use gauntlets for +6% magic damage with shadow, and eye at ToB

#

And boots are always good at all content between Scobo spot and the ToB/ Nex spot

mortal perch
#

imo post scobo is best spot; without zcb you don't need that much spec (still normal dc + lb) as its mostly going into c-hally spec's

gloves are very strong for yama if doing any method that relies on magic (even if its just P3), your accuracy isnt great there

all 3 items are insane for cox so I doubt you would entertain go there first

Furthermore it might be worth delaying shadow until after cox as eye is comparable pre ancestral

#

only reason to not send post scobo would be if rates at 12+ delves per instead of 7ish are significantly better but even then it feels like it would be need to be an insane difference in rate to justify (which imo it would only justify delaying boots, not eye/gloves)

#

so all post scobo or eye/gloves post scobo with boots post rigour depedant on drop rate at deeper delves

drowsy ore
#

Void, assembler, anguish, 99 range, range pot, dhide boots, lightbearer

IMG_6202.png
#

Amethyst arrows with deadeye are as good as rune arrows with rigour

#

Rigour makes a big difference with rune arrows, but little difference with amethyst arrows

loud panther
#

My setup with rune arrows + deadeye + quiver has a max of 52, not sure what the difference is

#

If you get the boots first, then you can push up to a max hit of 57 with amethyst arrows and rigour

drowsy ore
#

Venetor ring or base treads with quiver change deadeye rune arrows from 50-52

hollow cobalt
full panther
#

per courtesy of leonprz on github, who made a pull request, the chart now has a skip feature for the skippers among us

image.png
#

i think it messed with the cache a bit though, so might need to fill items back in

loud panther
drowsy ore
#

This is the setups with blessed quiver

IMG_6205.png
loud panther
#

Yeah that looks right

#

Honestly rigour seems kinda big if youre using arrows better than rune, and anecdotally i often get a second shield phase with the boss at low health

drowsy ore
#

Blessed Quiver is a +2 max on deadeye rune arrows which is very nice, but how many people do Colo pre rigour?

tacit crow
#

Uncharged quiver is fine.

polar void
#

also sorry if pinging you makes you upset, i love your site mane ty for your effort

full panther
#

no worries, thanks for the kind words

#

i don't really have any opinion at the moment

#

when the changes hit ill be more inclined to spend mental bandwidth on it

polar void
#

as in, youre still happy with where its at?

#

word

full panther
#

as of right now, nothing to my knowledge has invalidated the logic of its current sequencing

craggy granite
#

slayer changes would mean it's not needed for the slayer tasks anymore, so main reason at that exact point would be lightbearer

tacit crow
serene egret
#

my max is 52 without

mortal perch
fossil flame
#

burning that much runes just seems rough imo even recline

#

theres strats to easily get into cycle by delaying your first attack

hollow cobalt
serene egret
#

slower kills AND You get to burn money while at it

mortal perch
#

Money is more a problem for early game iron but agree if you can execute perfectly every time then melee is better, but, if the guide is targeted at an extremely high skill level shouldn't inferno/quiver be much earlier?

craggy granite
mortal perch
#

Don't have the answer but something worth considering

serene egret
#

donofly is not extremely high skill level

#

and easy enough to execute

craggy granite
#

if you do melee at yama do you need the second synapse or not?

mortal perch
#

Need both

craggy granite
#

👍

robust hazel
#

if doing Duos then maybe not? but solo definitely

mortal perch
#

You want 2 anyway, emberlight + flex one

craggy granite
#

big reason I’m doing Yama as soon as I’d get Emberlight + extra synapse is that I want to cash in on that melee exp

robust hazel
#

Yeah you'll always want the 2nd one either way

serene egret
#

i dont use it for anything except the judge in duos

robust hazel
#

I'd try to hold out on making emberlight until your 2nd synapse personally

serene egret
#

if u have swamp maybe its fine like 2 seconds lost per kill or something

hollow cobalt
#

Remove gwd from the prog entirely because those are at least as hard as donofly

serene egret
#

while at it remove gauntlet

#

this is now a skilling progression chart

hollow cobalt
mortal perch
#

Following the logic shouldn't inferno be pushed earlier then?

fossil flame
#

id get bclaws anyway then u get 2snypase most likely

#

and having both still helps juges

craggy granite
#

Personally I think inferno is mostly a skill difference type of thing, I’m doing it almost immediately after bowfa

mortal perch
#

I think the challenge of activities is very subjective and I feel it's poor to take such an authorative stance on something that is firmly in the grey

tacit crow
#

If you are good enough to do inferno with rcb, you know you can do it with rcb. If you are good enough to do it with Bofa, you know you can do it when you get Bofa. This has been discussed ad nauseam. It's there because if you delay it after all those upgrades, it's showing you that you have a big skill issue and you should stop delaying inferno

mortal perch
#

Unsure if you have seen the context but I agree with your point

strange nexus
#

The idea of doing a 2 hr attempt is off putting

fossil flame
#

feel like where its at guide is very fair for someone new to the game

tacit crow
#

I did mine directly after Bofa and it was fine. But I had inferno experience. I agree it's in a good spot for someone to do their first cape.

If you are good enough you don't need the chart to tell you to do it earlier, you just know when you can do it.

strange nexus
#

Yeah, I agree its at the perfect spot if you have none to basic inferno experience. Your honesty doing yourself a disservice putting it off farther

fossil flame
#

right but could u imagine doing something like rcb burst cape as ur first time

#

think alot of ppl say ye u can do it without prob had bowfa rigour bp for their first cape to or near that

#

and barrage

hollow cobalt
drowsy ore
#

Blessing quiver only makes a difference in rune arrows with deadeye

somber dagger
#

How many amethys arrows do you have to mine per hour for it to beat no time rune arrows?

hollow cobalt
#

more than you can

drowsy ore
#

Will we be running under the assumption that we will be using rune arrows or amethyst or dragon

somber dagger
hollow cobalt
#

So ballparkin it:

  • you save 2.2s every 1 min of hitting the boss.
  • in 1 min, you do 25 shots, meaning you lose 5 arrows
  • you save 2.2/5=0.4s per arrow used
  • 3600/0.4=9000 arrows used per hour saved
#

Can discount a bit if you value mining xp, but not much

neat sun
#

when in the chart would you prioritize amethyst arrows? Are they worth grabbing right after scobow?

hollow cobalt
#

They are never "worth"

neat sun
#

Just run rune arrows forever? Even at new delve boss? And rune darts in blowpipe?

fossil flame
#

feel like most ppl do end up using amethyst arrows they do add max hits and are much more viable then darts

#

its not considered worth but i think dps increase will make it easier to push harder/not fail

#

also just a believer of using ur darrows here as well instead regardless

drowsy ore
#

Amethyst are +3 max hits pre rigour, and +1 max hit post rigour

#

So if you are the type of person to afk mine amethyst, pre rigour gets a sizeable benefit to amethyst over rune arrows

indigo hollow
#

New copypasta alert

dusky fog
#

LOL

#

Honestly there isnt anything unreasonable in the progression

somber dagger
indigo hollow
#

No, you see, the chart is bad because it doesn’t have barrows and moons and those are FUN and anyone who doesn’t do those can’t possibly be having FUN

wary ibex
#

also 98 sepulchre is dumb cuz you can just catch moths, then catch meat for those moths for less than half the prayer restoration for each one...then do rooftops for 50% longer

#

oh and alch maple longbows for the gp you would have made too

polar void
#

They hated him because he told the truth

tall lark
#

most people always point to either the fire cape spot or the 98 agility but those are pretty understandable once u learn more
honestly at this point i think the easiest thing u can push back on to debate is the overemphasis on warping around the fang/lb rush, as well as the omega delaying tormented demons. I think most people would gain much more from routing extra catacomb tasks for shards than toa rush. TDs are just way too beneficial

#

but yeah they always point to the fire cape, agility, no moons etc. when there's many other things they could make more easier arguments on

polar void
#

Lightbearer I thought was mostly for crystal hally abuse whilst barraging? Fang doesn't have another place where it makes more logic to place, I agree with ladlor I tried to put it somewhere else and it didn't make sense, but skipping it can prob be okay if you feel like getting it later

#

98 agility there makes perfect sense imo, not really debatable but an understandable skip or just go as long as you can sanely

somber dagger
#

Untill ultor

hollow cobalt
#

I mean if you're not using it for slayer really there's not much reason to do it before the shadow step right?

polar void
#

You do use it for slayer currently and also hydra

#

It can also be useful for the CA's

low stag
tacit crow
low stag
#

okay that makes sense lol. my max is 55 w/ blessed quiver so it makes 0 difference

tacit crow
#

The accuracy ain't nothing. I think it's like 1-2 second TTK reduction

drowsy ore
#

I think it will be hard to justify not getting rigour (50->53 max hit) for rune arrows no matter what the drops rates are tonight

If the consensus is amethyst though, routing it in after vile transference makes sense, otherwise the 53->55 amethyst max hit comes after rigour and quiver

#

TLDR;
Rune arrows -> post rigour, pre quiver

Amethyst arrows -> post vile transference, pre rigour. Or delay it till post blessed quiver and rigour (route in right before the big toa and cox spots)

radiant pelican
#

Or zulrah?

#

Will the time save of 50->53 at delve outweigh the time save of having eye at zulrah/cox?

#

Eye + gauntlets + treads I should say

hollow cobalt
#

Eye is the only one that will save a substantial amount of time

drowsy ore
willow fiber
drowsy ore
#

Sets you up with ppots for slayer from sepulchre

#

And magic xp

chilly cove
#

And gp

#

And runes

opal dagger
#

The reasons why it's useful is what the above comments laid out.

full panther
#

droprates are in

image.png
opal dagger
#

with the nerf to spec regen charging between waves, vile transference gets some more value.

drowsy ore
#

What is the time save with eye and cloth at olm mage hand compared to toxic trident and torm brace for rate of rigour

opal dagger
# full panther droprates are in

So essentially if you hit the unique chance on wave 4 or higher its a 1/3 to get any specific unique. If you hit the rate on 3 its a 1/2 for the cloth/wand. and its a 1/2500 for a cloth on wave 2.

full panther
#

plot i made of expected hours for items

image.png
#

assumes these times

#

i have little experience with the bot to back them up tho. also i kind of just ignore zcb, might not be very fair to ignore, not sure how much time to add back with removing it

#

nvm oversight invalidates all off the above, i somehow read tbow as scobo

drowsy ore
#

Surely trident/ toxic trident has a chance to go now?

mortal perch
#

shadow after cox instead of before also?

full panther
#

anyway here is an adjusted version assuming these times in s per wave:
wave_times_ = [60, 60, 85, 85, 85, 105, 105, 105, 105]

image.png
mortal perch
#

thats crazy common

full panther
#

aye

mortal perch
#

feels like they will get a yama nerf, should exploit early

#

not many bosses have like 20 hrs for expected completion; let alone one with such insanely powerful items

inland cosmos
#

That’s for stopping at like at least wave 10 tho right?

#

Not super easy for most players

mortal perch
#

even if your a wave 7 andy its only like 35 hours

inland cosmos
#

True

mortal perch
#

pretty sure thats less then bandos if memory serves

inland cosmos
#

That is rather short yeah

#

But a sub 40 hour grind on average

#

Is something

#

Feels like a rush angle rather early?

long burrow
#

I’m glad tbh. Seems like a good meta shakeup and a shortish grind is a nice change

full panther
#

seems sensible to do this as soon as u get a scobo lol

inland cosmos
mortal perch
#

no doubt, the only question is if you can re-gig things to somehow do it earlier

tacit crow
#

Treads routed before cerb boots despair

inland cosmos
#

Honestly yes

long burrow
#

The nex grind made me appreciate a short grind lmao

drowsy ore
#

Remember that most people haven’t been doing this 93-99 range, with Ava’s, rune arrows. So that will change the maths a bit

mortal perch
#

I havn't thought this through, but can you push it pre-toa (fang/lb) for example

inland cosmos
#

Possibly yes

#

If you go for early tds

full panther
#

the ancient shard situation i don't have a strong grasp of mentally ngl

drowsy ore
#

80 slayer is ~on average 30 ancient shards, and you need 18 shards for rate of two zenytes and 18 shards on rate per synapse

inland cosmos
#

You could do tds for just one synapse, and not use arclight for zenytes?

drowsy ore
#

So it would be after 80 slayer minimum

full panther
#

early tds has been repeatedly contested

inland cosmos
#

Yeah

#

Just wondering if you do it for just scobow

full panther
#

mentally the first few shards for a scobo and anguish seems not completely aids

drowsy ore
#

But once you hit 1 synapse (wherever and whenever you hit it) should you pivot and send doom?

full panther
#

then proceed as normal

#

then again, the staff would only be for toa anyways

drowsy ore
#

People also forget about the task storage tech

untold totem
#

cloth is probably equivalent of pre-nerf occult but need zen to make use of it... base treads aren't that big of an upgrade compared to zenytes(to make a stronger argument for early td's)?

inland cosmos
#

You can easily do it with just void + scobow

drowsy ore
#

Store greater demon and you don’t get it if you get the task out and re store it, and then when you have enough ancient shards at any point, you do the TD’s

full panther
#

glove swapping during barrage is not popular lol

mortal perch
untold totem
#

is eye good at toa though? bis for akkha sure but fbow/keris seems plenty good without eye

mortal perch
#

currently the guide has you doing toa for fang/lb before you even have a trident

inland cosmos
#

That is true

untold totem
#

toa grind has been made easier with this year's update though. is 20-40h of mokha going to change the amount of time to get fang/lb with warped sceptre/dboots significantly?

chilly ruin
#

you literally only mage p2 wardens, i dont see how it matters much

inland cosmos
#

Hmm so doom reward might not be very useful pre toa

mortal perch
#

base threads are an insane upgrade over d-boots

image.png
inland cosmos
#

That is a good point

tall lark
#

how about just blocking metal dragon task after summer sweepup instead of rushing toa with low level gear?

mortal perch
#

+15 range acc +2 range str for half the raid is alot

inland cosmos
#

So possibly doing doom pre toa just for boots?

untold totem
#

eye/confliction uses pre shadow are:
yama for ddc(and later oathplate), zulrah, cox prayers, warden p2/akkha

#

boots obviously useful everywhere

inland cosmos
#

Delaying cloth and wand to when they are needed

#

Unless you get them while going for boots

untold totem
#

if only you could pick which unique mokha drops for you 😄

drowsy ore
#

Don’t you melee yama the whole time

untold totem
inland cosmos
mortal perch
full panther
#

eye of ayak: second-bis mage wep. useful at cox, toa, tob primarily.
current meta read has toa for lb+fang, cox before toa for scrolls, then toa camp until shadow, kills of ayak.

avernic treads: use literally everywhere lol

confliction gauntlets: glove swap slayer, toa for lb+fang, cox before toa for scrolls, toa camp, cox camp. requires torm

doom dependencies: scobo, anguish, assembler, void

can u sacrifice anguish?

mortal perch
#

havn't dont calcs but I could see it delaying shadow post ancentral which is where it really starts to get insane anyway

craggy granite
#

doing scobow for eye makes zulrah faster

full panther
#

there are some concept dumps

craggy granite
#

also would be faster for muspah

untold totem
full panther
#

im in favor of routing in early scobo and early doom atm

inland cosmos
full panther
#

it contests the ancient shards

inland cosmos
#

You can just not use arclight for zenytes

untold totem
inland cosmos
#

Hasta is fine

craggy granite
#

Yeah, scobow + hasta is nearly equal to arclight bowfa

mortal perch
#

Would need to do calcs but its defs possible tbow before shadow is now the play

full panther
#

i could be severly pvm pilled lol

tall lark
#

i remember actually calcing my typical mid game setup vs gorillas and arclight was barely better than zombie axe

#

virtually the same ttk once u consider u only melee half

inland cosmos
#

Arclight is severely overrated for demonics

craggy granite
#

eye would let you do zulrah -> tob earlier for avernic

tall lark
#

on the other hand arclight is significant for TDs

inland cosmos
untold totem
#

does anyone know whether full anc is likely to drop before tbow? might decide when to swap from cox back to toa for shadow

full panther
#

would an early scobo pivot harm slayer much

craggy granite
#

I'm doing scobow first, td's then zammy

full panther
#

torture is valued more highly for the account than anguish already

tall lark
full panther
#

mostly because anguish doesnt benefit slayer much under standard assumptions

craggy granite
#

saeldor was equal to arclight

inland cosmos
craggy granite
#

like i have excessive shards with the changes and going dry, so might be me

full panther
#

scobo doesnt benefit "traditional" slayer much, while torture has a bit of a global benefit

#

global but small, adds up

#

scobo very big but niche, even if the niche is kind of not so niche

craggy granite
#

traditional slayer now is barraging and demons thru 87-90ish

#

imo

mortal perch
#

if you complete delve you can swap your scobo to a emberlight right?

full panther
#

all the yama and tds do get a lot of melee xp these days right

tall lark
#

honestly I find demonbane weapons have more use than fang

mortal perch
#

won't need that synapse for the staff until much later (yama)

tall lark
#

and the current route bends over backwards for fang

sturdy jewel
full panther
#

for one item

sturdy jewel
#

yeh ok thought so

vague tusk
#

mixed hide boots -> base avernics are +5 accuracy, +2 str - that's basically the same upgrade as fury -> torture if we were making a fury

untold totem
#

what sort of slayer level is the fang detour supposed to happen currently?

chilly ruin
full panther
#

one thought im processing atm is how important Ayak is for most of slayer.

most of raids where ayak will be used is after slayer, though there is the lb+fang as an exception

#

cost of early ayak is scobo pivot almost exclusively

#

delays some upgrade for normal slayer

#

and early toa, how much does it exactly benefit from ayak?

#

bowfa camp on akkha is already not bad

chilly ruin
#

you still use bowfa on everything iirc

full panther
#

wardens would be the main pain point the ayak would alleviate, but if u want, u can already reduce tht to 1 warden phase

chilly ruin
#

just p2 wardens

mortal perch
#

should be about 1min total upgrading from warped to eye (just in p2 wardens)

tall lark
mortal perch
#

helps with monkey puzzle also

chilly ruin
#

oh, monkey puzzle

#

i forgot that existed lol

full panther
#

true that, but my conjecture is its negligible

mortal perch
#

i think i would also use it when swarming

#

its similar (not as good) as chins (assuming your not level 2+ where the aoe matters)

#

8 tile range 3t weapon

craggy granite
#

if you use ayak for scepter, (blowpipe), lightbearer & avernic

untold totem
#

fang uses post lance and outside toa itself are really limited... i think i use it at spindel maybe? So toa might be a lb camp only, then get fang on the way to shadow?

full panther
#

5 brawlers per room, 5 ticks saved contribution per raid

chilly ruin
#

lb is good but is it really that good

mortal perch
#

yeah agree, just 1min per raid is what i would use

full panther
#

am i missing something with early fang? is it already dead?

chilly ruin
#

dragons having no stab defence really helps hasta, tho fang hydra is still nice

full panther
untold totem
#

and if routing towards td's early, between those, k'ril, barrage tasks, gorillas and araxxor i reckon you hit 95 slayer without touching a dragon task(where fang is mostly useful). hydra is fine with hasta

chilly ruin
untold totem
#

(oh and shamans too - those are ok with fang but really awkward to 5t so hasta more or less wins there too)

full panther
#

i've lost a bit of oversight as to where fang gets used. was it exclusively for dragon tasks?

mortal perch
drowsy ore
#

I did nox hally hydra till lance, fang is still much better than hasta and nox though

tall lark
#

if u skip early toa rush that also means u can skip warped creatures, voidwaker, kril, and all the toa kc. all the new content u can do instead all also give massive combat xp

untold totem
tall lark
untold totem
#

stab def reduction is points in favour of hasta imo

#

(if you ever even hasta dragons, surely just fbow everything like the good old days)

mortal perch
#

don't people elemental magic them these days?

chilly ruin
#

yea i thought hasta hydra might be bad enough to make bowfa hydra better, tho no spec

#

not if playing "efficiently"

drowsy ore
#

Scobo fury rune arrows Ava’s is 49 max hit, with anguish making it 50 max hit

vague tusk
untold totem
#

arent araxytes >90 slayer req?

mortal perch
#

dark beast tasks are so short i dont think it really matters

vague tusk
#

yes, 92. you can replace that with torture and only focus on the whip and it's mostly the same argument though

drowsy ore
full panther
#

can i have quick tldr of why elite void range is good at doom?

untold totem
#

also dark beasts are such a tiny task it hardly tips the scales in favour of grinding out fang

full panther
#

in tob i remember low to 0 range def is one of/the reason

#

looking at wiki i cant see

untold totem
#

100% accuracy phase is a big reason why void is good

mortal perch
#

it lacks accuracy but adds modest range damage

#

and low death coffer cost 😄

untold totem
#

post w5 it's really common for either grub phase(where dps/accuracy doesn't matter) or car phase(where you have 100% accu) to occur. so a large part of your dps ignores accuracy

tall lark
# drowsy ore Why would you skip kril and voidwaker

not skip but delay. these were all things that were routed pre toa mostly for toa use. so if fang is less relevant than you can revisit the position of those grinds at this stage. and kril u can just do more TDs

drowsy ore
#

Kril gets you hasta which is a big upgrade over dscimi

mortal perch
#

and you wouldn't have masouri as this stage, so during car your range armor is doing nothing for you

dire zephyr
#

id prob do masori tbow until w12 or so but i doubt there is any real math done on when ud swap

vague tusk
#

i mean for the purpose of deciding whether to bin early toa or not the question is if void ranging is better than crystal, not masori

mortal perch
#

scobo is very accurate so you really don't need more accuracy

full panther
#

yeye, that question was for a doom document

dire zephyr
#

for brokies with scobow and no gear id assume void is always best

untold totem
#

crystal has no ranged strength

#

100% void

full panther
#

im probably suffering a bit from scope creep atm lol but

#

theres no real reason to not get assembler before mokhiatl ye?

#

theres no universe where u do it with accumulator right

untold totem
#

for the sake of 50kc of fbow vorkath - probably a safe assumption

dire zephyr
#

don't you get assembler before anguish/scobow

drowsy ore
#

Yep

#

Some maths has to be shown soon for some discussion

#

Anguish adds +1 max hit to rune arrows

#

Rigours adds 3

untold totem
#

rigour is a significant grind and has a ton of prereqs, including a decent mage setup for olm

drowsy ore
#

Yep

#

But it’s more so to prove why early doom will or will not work

untold totem
#

for a couple of max hits being added to a 30-40h mokha grind it's probably not reasonable to assume having rigour

drowsy ore
#

6-7% or so is pretty sizeable

mortal perch
#

the math is hard as alot of your time is doing slayer so you need to work benefits based on the expected task lists

dire zephyr
#

can't wait for all the posts

drowsy ore
#

You base it off the assumption that ladlor guide assumes your skill level is that you need rigour for inferno and you can’t do a eagle eye/ deadeye infernal cape

loud panther
#

Are we expecting people to push for wave 8+? Because if so, going for quiver before mokha seems completely reasonable, w8 is colo-tier or harder

untold totem
#

i guess we know that zcb tbow masori are best at doom - and the earliest you can reasonably farm it is elite void, assembler, chally, scobow, giants prayers? and(anguish/fury? tbc).
Is the question - are there any in-between upgrades that don't take half the expected time for doom to get, which have a big enough impact on doom? I'd say lightbearer is maybe reasonable but idk what the expected time for that is...

mortal perch
#

I suspect un-upgraded deaths charge is probs enough to sustain spec without LB but havn't tested it

dire zephyr
#

u wouldnt bin the zcb but u wouldnt use it much

untold totem
#

i have un-upped dc and lightbearer - can bin lb and see when game is back up

full panther
#

glory -> anguish seems to be ~3% dps increase for eagle eye and deadeye, and ~6% with rigour at Mokhiatl

untold totem
#

tbh though what would an alternative ring even be? archers? something with prayer?

full panther
#

(rune arrows)

#

only delve 1 considered

untold totem
#

b ring for extra str bonus ig

inland cosmos
full panther
#

2% of a 20 hour grind is less than an hour

#

finding anguish maybe a bit negligible for Mokhiatl rush, thoughts?

untold totem
#

seems correct. also glory has str bonus which adds to punish

mortal perch
#

do your calcs consider car phase?

full panther
#

not sure how to accomodate for the complexities of the encounter lol

untold totem
#

thats a good point actually... car phase is dramatically better with something like blowpipe which doesn't happen until way later in prog

mortal perch
#

two things to consider, car phase ignores accuracy (which diminishes the extra accuracy anguish brings)

#

other thing, dps has a compounding effect

#

the more dps you have, the more likly you are to skip orb phase (and if your really unlucky get a 2nd shield phase)

drowsy ore
#

Car phase is easy maths since it’s just the extra max hit included, so 0.5 extra damage per hit divided by 2.4 seconds

untold totem
#

maybe "wait until sailing" angle where you make your own blowpipe and completely skip zulrah 😄

chilly ruin
#

the sailing blowpipes are bad lol

full panther
#

could someone try to quantify just how big bp is for mokhiatl?

craggy granite
#

are deep delves (8+) harder than inferno? A lot of people haven't gotten any 8+ kc or barely

dire zephyr
craggy granite
#

I feel weird recommending it when people aren't comfortable tackling that content yet

dire zephyr
#

best spec weapon available for an early doom rush that is

untold totem
#

bp ameth anguish assembler elite void is 13.15dps during car phase

inland cosmos