Gear Progression Chart

[mellow matrix]

yeah but thats not

the same thing

as making faster raids meta

[fossil flame]

i mean it is supposed to be a nerf but i think it will be harder to do with same rates as before

[mellow matrix]

like say 500 was only 10% more loot per time than a 350

then thered be a choice

[fossil flame]

honestly im just yapping i didint even know about wieghting changes till just now

prob will still be best to push higher raid lvl easily

[full panther]

i like fast, so when fast is a realistic option, ill be happy

[mellow matrix]

40 minutes just is an inappropriate amount of time for a raid imo

and heck some people even run raids closer to 50

[opal dagger]

300s got buffed compared to live no? redditors win again

[dusky fog]

I’m not sure about this. 350 is still less kc to get any drop, including fang, as compared to a 300. Yeah instead of 22 raids saved on a fang as compared to before it’s 9 now, but still a significant higher chance of the other uniques as compared to staying at a 300. Im struggling to see why you’d stay at 300 intentionally. 350 should still be faster to get fang than a 300? I guess you’d have to do the math to see how many minutes you save per 300 compared to a 350 and see if that adds up the 9 raid difference or not

[opal dagger]

350 is not a higher chance to see a fang over a 300 post change

[dusky fog]

Yeah it is

[opal dagger]

so the reddit graph is just wrong then

classic

[mellow matrix]

no i think that graph is right its just labeled weirdly

[full panther]

as a bit of a sidenote from the toa discussion, does broader fletching belong on the chart? relevant to slayer for being a slayer reward, but also doesn't benefit pvm nor slayer directly, only indirectly for quests and da4.

[opal dagger]

k i have no idea how its right when its a flatline for a 300 and a 500

[somber dagger]

Do many people ask why it stand there? Maybe take it off then

[full panther]

noone asks tbh

[dusky fog]

This graph?

Have to look at the dotted line not the solid one?

[somber dagger]

Let it stay then!

[full panther]

on second thought, i think it interacts with the rest of the slayer rewards too. here it communicates that its weighted relatively heavily

[opal dagger]

K i guess my eyes are bad cuz I thought 350 was the same as 300 wcyd

[dusky fog]

Nvm this.

I can’t tell if there’s a drop or not on the solid line lol

Should be

[hollow cobalt]

300s are so much more fun than higher invos

[dusky fog]

83 to 73 is still like a 10% drop. It’s not nothing 🤔

[hollow cobalt]

and this doesn't fix the core problem with the higher invos, the goddamn def scaling

[opal dagger]

so 350 is best raid lvl for fang then

ignoring any other purple

[fossil flame]

i like 400s for simlar reasons no annoying invos to turn on just blasting them

[dusky fog]

Probably. If you go higher you don’t save many raids for fang chance, plus the raid will likely take enough time longer to actually not save time on a fang

[somber dagger]

Proboly will never change it, as its to much work to balance right?

[hollow cobalt]

Ignoring any other purple just seems like fundamentally a bad way to look at it

[opal dagger]

just making an objective statement. not saying its going to be meta to sit at 350 for a fang

[dusky fog]

Like a 350 to 400 saves you 3 raids? But how much longer will the raid take you?

[somber dagger]

We do get a new gem that you want fast most likely

[dusky fog]

Probably longer enough that it’s actually better to stay at 350

[fossil flame]

400 saves alot currently

[dusky fog]

Yeah but talking about proposed

[fossil flame]

ye proposed seems mid id prob camp 350 or go 450

[dusky fog]

So for fang purposes prob would rather do a 350 over a 400. But could you argue that you’re now still taking a big cut to the other unique chances? 350 down from 440 for shadow as example. How do you balance that trade off?

[hollow cobalt]

think the answer is "if you can do the 400s without losing it, do those"

[opal dagger]

imo the meta will always be pushing your raid lvl to the highest you can consistently complete. these changes don't really make a difference if you're just talking about shortest time to complete toa

[dusky fog]

Yeah cuz fang would be about same time ish but much higher chance of getting the other purps

[full panther]

i have this unfortunate habit of returning to ToA, dying to wardens on first attempt back, and then postponing it for another month

[fossil flame]

ye for sure it just feels bad

go from saving 140 raids to like 90 400 vs 350

[opal dagger]

you nearly double your shadow chance from 350 to 450

50% better 350 to 400

[fossil flame]

ye but they are saying ud expect a shadow in those amount of raids

[opal dagger]

right

[fossil flame]

but ye idt its that awful even if nerf may be harsh or not

eye staff/bracelet gona make shadow much less of a need imo

[dusky fog]

I really wonder how the changes will feel on ease of raid difficulty and supply management. Especially with getting the jewels sooner, including the new proposed one. If a new 350 feels like old 400, or new 400 feels like old 450 and are similar times… then look at that chart and compare the numbers diagonally. Some interesting observation when looking at that for shadow 😮

Like for example if you can now run 400 instead of 350 in same time with same ease, then yeah fang might be a little slower compared to before but now you jump from 421kc to 350 kc for shadow, a much higher chance of spooning one during fang grind as compared to before

Basically there was a 13.5% chance of getting spooned a shadow during current 350 fang grind (assuming you hit on drop rate). And now at a 400 you’ll now have 18% chance to spoon shadow if you hit new fang drop rate 😄 50% more irons will spoon a shadow grinding fang is the take away? Ofc idk if a new 400 will feel like a 350 in time or difficulty or not. Just some thought experimenting

[pearl quail]

I think karmja elite would be after mixology rewards, no? Just feels like something to have done before the 87 herb requirement for that diary.

[hybrid blaze]

Your mage setup doesn't matter at all. You could wait, you could use the sceptre, you could alch the sceptre and use a slayer staff, it's pretty much the same

Waiting is definitely the worst of the set because it means doing combat without a fang

But 41m40 with trident is a cakewalk?

[tall lark]

agreed that seems like an oversight

[craggy granite]

More like slayer helm -> desert diary 3 -> mixology -> Karamja before back to duradel slayer

[tall lark]

and just in general i didnt do 98 agility myself so idk how much irl time that takes but getting 87 herb that early in the chart seems rather obscene

[craggy granite]

I don’t know how the slayer points are working out there - but to get that, broader fletching, slayer helm, and a block list around 69-73 slayer I don’t get

Especially because the amount of “point boosting isn’t worth”

[fickle drum]

doing skilling before pvm is p much quite literally free if your goal is to do both skilling and pvm on an account

[craggy granite]

slayer helm gatekeeps desert diary which would otherwise mean making the thousands of pots for 81 herblore for mixology

It’s either mixology a bit before 81 herblore then or get the slayer helm imo?

[fickle drum]

yeah I was just replying to the irl time constraint comment

I also made a lot of pots manually cuz I couldn't be assed to do slayer so can't really speak on that

[tall lark]

i was more pointing out the time planting all the herbs and shit

the only grinds before are CG, and optionally 98 agility 90 rc. not sure how much time that takes overall since i didnt do the other two but do u really get 87 herb by then?

[hollow cobalt]

Surely lol

Those take a while

[fickle drum]

wait I don't get how herb runs being slow comes into this

[tall lark]

also yeah as someone else pointed out without desert hard you have to manually make all your potions

[fickle drum]

whether you get it or not is just about the cooldown timer, no?

[craggy granite]

even with just doing herb runs during cg, with some banked barb fishing, and birds nests -> brews, I probably come pretty close if i calculate all of my banked exp as it stands now to 87

If I finish up more fishing while doing more farming & herb runs and even just get started on the agilty/runecrafting, as long as i log off at the end of the day with an inventory ready to do a farm run

i'd probably be at super combats or something silly by then

[tall lark]

nice to know! and thats with sepulchre + farming guild?

it sounded unbelievable that u could bank that much levels with that early progress but nice to know

[craggy granite]

i haven't even touched sep

like i have but i'm only floor 3

my 250 cg kc and doing 3-5 herb runs/day on top of staying on top of farming contracts

I'm at like 400 herbs/day with the 9 patches, and with super attack -> mixes that'd be 60k herblore exp/day

cg is approximately a 50-60 hour thing, iirc 98 agility is 2-3x that long, runecrafting will also be a chunk of time

if prioritizing herb runs over the 3-6+ months, especially with mixology now being a part of it all

[tall lark]

interesting. i managed to finish cg in 3 months after account start but just checking i only had 71 herb after that, not even close to 87. granted compared to the chart I skipped void, barrage, and agility and did not do herb runs off cooldown at all.

[mellow matrix]

the agility step is also 'get insanely far ahead on hourlies' so that checks out

[craggy granite]

skipping agility + birdhouses means you might actually have to do hunter to get to 80

[fickle drum]

yeah herb is a huge bottleneck if you don't do it off cd for at least a decent bit

which mixology pretty much solved tbf

[somber dagger]

how muhc xp do you get from mixology to get the uniqes?

[fickle drum]

idk but you do a lot of it for xp anyways and it's defintely less than that

[opal dagger]

You also want aldarium for goading and prayer renewals a bit

[drowsy ore]

It’s moreso the ~30% of herblore xp comes from mixology which sets you up for all the rewards and bulk aladriums

[dusk needle]

Morning guys, quick question - I'm 98 slayer and have all of the drops I need from duradel, I have rancour, nox hally, prims, eternals, pegs, etc. and was lucky enough to spoon imbued heart also. I'm 2.6k kc at TDS without a synapse. Is it worth grinding TDS off task and switching to Konar to start the Hydra grind?

[quiet schooner]

I would do hydra but I don't know that I would do tds off task if there are other misc slayer things u want to do

I was already 99 slayer with most drops completed when TDs came out and I still hunted tasks for them because I had a few niche slayer things I wanted

If u have anything like that maybe revisit duradel for TDs later

[terse matrix]

How does blessing the quiver fits into the gear progression chart ? I got the sol kc this morning, should i focus on 150k splinters rn or just get back sometimes for some kc when im out of charges ? Dont feel like sending 25kc atm

[crystal narwhal]

Charge you use count towards the perma unlock now

So no reason to go back when you have charges unless you want to

[mellow matrix]

pre tbow the charges part barely gets any use

[dusk needle]

Understood, my only issue is that synapses gate keep certain content - sire, yama, etc.

[robust hazel]

Greater demons are fairly weighted tasks, so you could just skip for them pretty easily if you don't mind breaking your streak

[terse wharf]

can anyone help me understand why torture before suffering? Isn't suffering really helpful for bandos?

[somber dagger]

You use torture so much in whole game

And suffering aint going to help much

Defence is a joke

You only use it for recoil effect

[terse wharf]

I see. I know nothing about toa, I'm just looking at the chart, but do you use torture there? Or fury for easy swaps?

[somber dagger]

You use torture everywhere you use melee

[terse wharf]

ok, got it. Thank you!

[slate dome]

This is untrue

[mellow matrix]

the list of places the defense is relevant is rly slim.... like pre shadow kree, inferno (but rotg/lb are at least competitive)... i guess some sus vard setups? otherwise yeah, its just a recoil item for like kq zulrah

[slate dome]

Ones that come to mind at first would be pretty much all gwd bosses, inferno, vard, corp, muspah purely bc what else is worth using

Probably few others but think thats about it

[dusky fog]

Which ring best to bring to inferno?

[robust hazel]

Prepping for inferno myself and it seems like Suffering is the go-to at the moment

[fossil flame]

suffering convetional ye but ring/boots u use wont really be game changing either way

if u want to use one of others i think thats fine to

all have their advantages

[low stag]

I tried suffering but I didn’t like it. IMO extra defense doesn’t change much when you’re taking damage from not solving waves properly.

I preferred ROTG and Lightbearer more

[slate dome]

What's the thought process behind that?

Id of thought defence would be the most important stat to keep you alive when youre not solving waves properly

Like ROTG isnt going to help there at all

[low stag]

Most of the time when you mess up, you die. If you’re tanking a ranger and two blobs while panicking, RoS isn’t keeping you alive.

I preferred ROTG to be able to camp my prayers more often so I could focus on solving waves and learning the mechanics rather than getting lucky and tanking.

I could see RoS being good if you’re struggling to make it past wave 20-30, but realistically that should only be your first few attempts

[quiet schooner]

U have plenty of prayer even with ros imo

[low stag]

I just don’t see the value of extra defense imo. I also ran with crystal helm instead of a tank helm

[indigo hollow]

I ran crystal helm/rotg and felt it was fine, but I know plenty of credible people recommend suffering and tank helm so

I think with prayer regen pots there’s no way I’d take rotg now though

[low stag]

Hard agree on this. I didn’t have the seeds from Huey though.

With prayer regen I’d definitely run Lightbearer or RoS

[fossil flame]

i think suffer designed for ppl to make mistakes but i dont think suffer can drastically change your surivial rate

if u aim to play a bit better and want to worry less about conserving prayer i think gods is still okay

[indigo hollow]

I mean, there are things like tanking a ranger during sets where you can be doing everything right and still get fucked

[slate dome]

I doubt it drastically changes anything, but how many people do you think are actually running out of prayer while learning

[fossil flame]

ye thats the thing i feel like all rings arent game changing just small things

u dont need small bit of extra defence or just the extra prayer etc to clear

so if u lean one over the other its not big deal imo

[low stag]

For me, I felt better knowing it was okay to camp rigour / augury while learning solves.

Others might feel better knowing they can get lucky while tanking a few hits while learning solves.

Honestly whatever works best imo

[quasi juniper]

Lmao sounds like its the placebo effect slot

[fickle drum]

you also will take a range hit sometimes at the start of mage/range waves

[low stag]

Pretty much

[robust hazel]

Damn so now I won't be able to blame my first inferno death on the ring 😩 ✊

[dusky fog]

I’ll probably use Rotg just for the extra prayer bonus then given I already have experience with inferno and don’t need to rely on tanking from mistakes as frequently

[tame fossil]

so is bandos not needed anymore now? what do you do after you get bowfa then? zulrah and slayer?

[indigo hollow]

You’d still want BGS, but I think the idea is if you get it before the armor, you just don’t stay for the armor

[drowsy ore]

You’ll get some bandos pieces on way to hilt probably

[tall lark]

is bgs really worth that grind? i feel like the 500+ kc at bandos could be better spent almost anywhere else.
afaik they are even making bone dagger more consistent at toa? burning claws can be gotten passively from td grind which demonbane weapons actually is important. and groups now can use dwh
dont get me wrong i love my bgs but the early bandos grind seems to be getting phased out

[slate dome]

Bgs is very nice yeah

[tall lark]

i wouldnt be surprised if we give it a few months and everyones like lets take bandos out

[slate dome]

Why would they do that?

Its a short grind for a great item

[tall lark]

i dont think its a short grind

[hybrid blaze]

Burning claws are much later in progression than bandos

[slate dome]

Bandos is like 20h or something?

[hybrid blaze]

It's good to take another look at graardor but at first glance I don't think removing him makes sense

[hybrid blaze]

Completion is closer to 45hrs

[slate dome]

Meant for bgs and dip

[tall lark]

yeah i dont think bandos is 20h at all

[slate dome]

Not full completion

Its like 500kc on rate

What kph are you getting 👀

[tall lark]

nice to hear youll consider revisiting 👍

[hybrid blaze]

20-22 is normal at that stage

[slate dome]

Ok 24 😅

Still a fairly short grind for a solid item, with good odds of hitting an armour piece on way

[hybrid blaze]

Fwiw this is ladlor's gear prog. I'm happy to share my thoughts but I'm not the one who decides

[slate dome]

If its completely unusable at toa then I could see that happening, only rly Duke it would be big for afterwards?

Tob ig if youre taking there

[tall lark]

i cant imagine doing duke without bgs but yea thats so much further in the progression

[hybrid blaze]

If you're going to get one anyway there's not much benefit to going late

With bowfa obtained you've got access to the good method, and most upgrades after are low impact at graardor

So if you go for it, it makes sense to go just before you can use it well

Bcp and tassets are also useful for slayer

[tall lark]

to be fair they are doing a lot of duke changes in summer sweep up. idk how stacking the poisons changes stuff with getting specs

they might be doing other duke changes cant remember

[full panther]

i did see some claims that bone dagger might become on-par with bgs for toa specifically which would remove one constraint, but bgs remains generally useful beyond that

[slate dome]

Think its just stacking + left click once to feed rather than spam, then 10% health increase

Or atleast, thats all ive seen

[tall lark]

then again doing 500+ bandos prep for far future duke use does sound a bit odd

[tall lark]

wouldnt that impact how much your specs restore between kills

[slate dome]

Yeah but even with 1 spec/kill id still rather have bgs

Idt how far Duke is into the future changes much tbh. You arent rly improving bandos kc much outside of getting shadow. Like bruh mentioned if youre gonna do it, may aswell do it before you have use of the armour etc

Armour good for slayer, toa, yama etc

[tall lark]

anyway yeah just my 2 cents on the matter. duke himself pretty niche i havent gone more than like 50 odd kills cause no shadow so idk how much a far future boss that you wont even grind much without mega rare would impact early progression choices. nice discussion guys

just off the top bgs doesnt seem that essential to warrant 500+ kills early on grind but just my 2 cents

[fossil flame]

imo ive always seen early bgs for toa but i feel like u can play around bgs more often then not just awkward for most content

even tob id argue u can play around it relatively easily with the right ppl

[robust hazel]

Garage door is therapeutic once it’s nailed down

[fickle drum]

rigour is kinda big, but might be worth looking into shifting bandos after deadeye

[fickle drum]

it's not just the bgs, it's also the chance to land tassets

[full panther]

always remember the absurd respawn times greatly cap kph of dps increase

[fickle drum]

it's mostly the def bonus increase

[hybrid blaze]

Def bonus doesnt do anything

you're not limited by damage at bandos

[fickle drum]

yeah but eating during the kill is both annoying and slow

[hybrid blaze]

Without running the calcs I would still be incredibly surprised if the def bonus from rigour at graardor matters more than having tassets for all of slayer

[fickle drum]

deffo don't delay bandos until rigour imo

[hybrid blaze]

But you only gain by how much less you have to eat

[fickle drum]

it's just that deadeye is basically right after bandos & it's +5% def and some dps

[hybrid blaze]

you'll still be eating sometimes with rigour, and usually you wont eat mid kill even with eagle eye

the window where you save an eat is very slim

idm titans right after cg, before bandos. Though bgs is also decent at titans iirc?

[fickle drum]

yeah idk rly anything abt titans so can't rly comment other than might be worth looking into it

[robust hazel]

I don’t think you use bgs at titans at all afaik

Just damage specs

[hybrid blaze]

Does bgs beat dds?

Especially at lower stats

[midnight dome]

I don't think this is the worst idea ever although you kinda want bgs for tob. But I guess you can just leech and have teammates bgs for you, which you can also do at toa. There's also technically bandos which turns into torva and will be useful for slayer pre yama

[indigo hollow]

I saw that Gnomonkey said that in his recent ToA video, but idk if I buy it. I don’t think having the Kephri bug fixed (which is not even a guarantee—Jagex just said they’d try) is enough to make bone dagger equal or better. The difference in spec cost is still relevant until you’re running overly draining, and you’re more likely to hit the defense reduction caps with a BGS spec than a bone dagger spec everywhere except Kephri

[full panther]

alright, sounds solid

[indigo hollow]

Probably worth poking your head in WDR and/or the ToA channel here to see what others think as well. I have a decent amount of ToA experience but wouldn’t consider myself an authority on it, especially for anything past 400

[quiet schooner]

skipping an item that is used at multiple bosses is asinine

[mellow folio]

When bone dagger and bgs is compared, is it factored in that bgs deals way more damage?

[fossil flame]

ye i used bone dagger a bit on iron feel like u will rarely ever hit full defence reduction

esp p3 wardens is a big place i feel for bgs being strong

[indigo hollow]

Yeah, that’s a good point. BGS is just way better for P3

Especially with how high-impact it is

[fossil flame]

if u have a shadow and are running like way higher raid lvl though i can see bone dagger being better

[indigo hollow]

Yeah I think most of this assumes pre-shadow

[midnight dome]

nah its cope for bofa avoiders

[indigo hollow]

Good way to advertise for the 3-tick atlatl butterfly video that I’m sure is coming soon

[quasi juniper]

Hello! GM to YouTube finger guns at screen. Today I will be showing you 3 tick akka butterfly.

[opal dagger]

At least it will be future proof for the new 3t mage weapon

[sturdy jewel]

people say this but then argue suffering>lightbearer for inferno tho

not that im disagreeing with the zenyte order

[crystal narwhal]

It’s mostly true, dps>def almost everywhere. But if you can have def without losing def it’s always good (torso->bcp for example)

[midnight dome]

I think defense in general is a little bit underrated but it definitely is less important than dps in general

[mortal perch]

Whats the thinking behind doing Hilt 5 before nex/tob? not challenging just curious to why it is where it is?

[fossil flame]

its pretty late in prog should have gear/skill at that point to pick up master cas

thralls and kc reduction at gwd are pretty nice to pick up in general at that point

they are also are moving 2min thralls to master tier i believe so even more nice

[low stag]

I thought thralls barely affected your KPH at GWD since you’re usually just waiting for the boss to respawn?

[fossil flame]

its just a qol thing before those grinds

prog has it insanely late tbh like ur expected to get shadow+tbow before masters

[quiet schooner]

GM before Nex is probably really good

[vague tusk]

I mean I've been collecting a decent amount of nex KC just for use banking whilst grinding zilyana and getting KC generally seems pretty fast! I'm not even doing any multidot stuff, just killing spiritual mages with a blowpipe and I get a really good amount of KC in one or two doses of divine pot. Like sure getting higher tiers chops off 1/6 or 1/3 of the time kcing versus time doing kills but I feel that'd only be as good as, like, a new broad arrowhead pack that contains 1.5x as many arrowheads for 1.5x the price - yeah it's technically good but it's fast enough anyways it won't matter that much if you don't get it

Guess it matters more if you're hopping between content and not just staying logged out at nex bank for several days in a row and grabbing KC during downtime - if you're suddenly entering the dungeon for a session taking longer to prep is probably annoying

[peak coyote]

well im sure it was talked a few times here already but i dont wanna go too deep in conversations here cuz ill never catch up

so ill just quick ask

92ranged/90 mage for cg with that guide, ranged trained with red chinchompas and mage with what way?

whats the most efficient way to get 90 magic?

[crystal narwhal]

Passively, alching while doing 98 agility, questing etc

[peak coyote]

what if i dont have anything to alch? will alching rune arrows earned from lms be fine?

is it even profitable or not anymore

[mellow matrix]

gathering alches is bad

[worthy scaffold]

i alched a lot of gold bars before f5, after that rune bolts were positive

[hybrid blaze]

Alching rune arrows you already have is fine. Going out of your way to collect them is bad

You dont need 90 magic at all though, 80 or lower even is fine for cg

[peak coyote]

89-92 ranged is optimal but 80 mage is fine?

[worthy scaffold]

mage level only affects accuracy, the max hit is the same at all levels

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[peak coyote]

well if i want to go in order with the guide i still have to get somehow magic at least till high 80s/early 90s, so anyway i still have to find a way to exp that magic lvl😄

[quiet schooner]

Sepulchre

[peak coyote]

how im getting mage xp at sepulchre

[hybrid blaze]

high alchemy

[austere pecan]

you alch anything, you dont need to profit gp

[mortal perch]

im not an expert at this but my gut feel agrees with this; i was expect to see it sooner; but was just curious as to the thinking behind putting it where it is

currently at around the quiver stage of the progression and thinking of knocking it before committing to a mega rare raids

for context "it" is master CAs from an earlier discussion

[hollow cobalt]

nex is a post-gm thing tbh

[craggy granite]

for the muspah kc going for the scepter, is duke tablet worth getting before or nah?

[mellow matrix]

yes

you may as well, duke has some CAs to knock out

da4 is free at muspah because of the respawn time

[craggy granite]

When’s doing kq then?

I’ll probably do poh tele at that point because I don’t think I’ll have kalphite queen

[somber dagger]

Diary cape is on the list no?

[drowsy ore]

Ok thoughts about bloodbark:

bloodbark has a chance of being able to be skipped if you get ahrims or blue moons as part of the natural progression.

If you do barrows early with air surge and sepulchre keys you have a ~56% chance to get an ahrims top or bottom on way to any full set.

Also if you do moons as a natural part of doing combat achievements, there are 2 that stick out.

1. Use a moons weapon and 2. Do 25 kc.

If you route that ca in kinda early (as part of the ghommals hilt 4 step)

You get any blue moon pieces for “free” if you get the hood or top or tassets before any weapon, since you have to keep going for a weapon.

You also have to do 25 kc for ca so if you get spooned a weapon early you have 25kc to have another chance for a blue moon piece.

So the question is, is it worth the 5-6 hours for bloodbark if it could be skipped in a natural progression?

Mage seems to be used at muspah and toa between the bloodbark step and the ghommals hilt 4 step

I lean towards having a guaranteed +3 magic damage is good. But I think it’s worth thinking about

[hybrid blaze]

Blue moon spear is -2% compared to ancient sceptre + mages book, not +3%. Furthermore, that -2% costs two max hits on barrage, or 18 max hits across all targets.

[drowsy ore]

Yeah I just double checked

Thought it was 10%

Good pickup

[hybrid blaze]

Bloodbark droprate is special, you need to unlock the scroll

If you need any piece, its the same speed to get all pieces

You can skip bloodbark if you get a top + bottom ahead of time, but one of the two doesn't cut it

[drowsy ore]

Is all 3 +1 pieces useful

[hybrid blaze]

Top + bottom is useful, because losing out on even +1% mage bonus costs those 2 maxes on task

[drowsy ore]

Like
I know bloodbark is the one drop equals all 3

So on slayer task you want 9% between your staff offhand top and bottom?

[drowsy ore]

The bloodbark hat is just a freebie for when you use powered staves at non slayer?

[hybrid blaze]

yeah

[hybrid blaze]

I think so yeah

[drowsy ore]

The bloodbark step is there moreso for the +2 ice barrage in slayer, not for muspah/ toa/ powered staff usage?

[hybrid blaze]

It used to be 9.5% with the ring but the new titans prayer dropped it to 8.5% I think

and then you can go 8% on those slots and add imbued seers, or (better) 8.5% with titans prayer and lightbearer for chally

yes the bloodbark step is almost exclusively for slayer

[drowsy ore]

Gotcha

So moons can’t be routed in pre slayer for ca, but barrows could.

By my maths you have actually a 76.3% chance of getting ahrims top and bottom before a full set

So 3/4 players could skip bloodbark if they do barrows with air surge and sep lock picks

[hollow cobalt]

I don't think anyone is doing barrows for a full set pre-slayer

Regardless of whatever math you deleted, the fundamental problem is that anyone who is skillerbrained enough to get wraths early isn't a Barrows rusher. They're pretty much opposite playstyles

[drowsy ore]

Haha

Yeah it’s fun to check the maths though

The good setup Is a 3.5 second ttk difference between early wind surge and swamp trident, occult, torm, eternals, augury, seer i

Which of you kill all 6 barrows with only mage is a 3.5x6x expected 729 barrows for one set completion
Is a 4 hour 15 time save

[hybrid blaze]

Are you sure? This seems way off

[hybrid blaze]

729 is incorrect. It's like 250

[drowsy ore]

No i am not sure

[hybrid blaze]

729 is a specific set

But we just want any

[drowsy ore]

That is very helpful

Yeah that doesn’t work

Thank you @hybrid blaze @hollow cobalt

[hollow cobalt]

More than 250 but less than 750 https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Chest_(Barrows)

[drowsy ore]

Well til that bloodbark is goated

@hybrid blaze what’s the actual maths on odds of getting ahrims top and bottom on the way to any 1 set. I am much better at normal spreadsheet maths and not coupon collector maths

[hybrid blaze]

I don't know the actual percentage. Personally I'd monte carlo simulate it

I think a multi state markov chain can give the exact nr

[craggy granite]

If already getting wrath runes why not get bloodbark by then, in the grand scheme that’s still only a relatively short detour

if wind surging thru barrows, just makes sense to just get the bloodbark

[dusky fog]

Bloodbark grind took me less than a day

[zenith lake]

does require 90 wc though?

[karmic fossil]

you can do magic logs it’s just worse rate

[dusky fog]

Not at all

[dusky fog]

Yeah 1/150 vs 1/100 on an already relatively short grind plus you do get some gold keys

[robust roost]

hasta isn’t going to be affected by new keris because it’s the crush weapon used to grind vw, correct?

[fossil flame]

still need for lance either way to

[neon eagle]

37%

(I ran a simulation of 100,000 players)

[tall lark]

i prefer zombie axe waaaay more at wildy bosses cause its 5 tick. lining up better vs calvarion and also better for anti-pk since its better at pking in general. its also easily obtainable earlier

[austere pecan]

the difference between the two isnt enough to justify the z axe grind tho

[tall lark]

zombie axe is well worth getting for most players and iirc over here efficiency wise it only barely calcs as inefficient(?) which is very tough standards. someone here can correct me on that

anyway i think most people will get it

[austere pecan]

its inefficient to get unless you barrage to farm it

so, very high magic reqs for that

[tall lark]

hasta also pretty much requires barrage to get too

[austere pecan]

sure, but you are getting it relatively later

and if you have barrage you just get hasta

cause most likely you are also at the point where you can go get bowfa

main issue is zaxe doesnt really help getting bowfa which just gets you hasta which has more varied and better uses

[tall lark]

i mean all this discussion is pretty pointless anyway since the vw grind is very optional and most players going for it do their own wierd paths

[austere pecan]

eh, VW grind is pretty meta id say

very good spec weapon

its even here on the chart we are discussing

[tall lark]

its on the chart yeah but it was just debatably in. iirc I would be surprised both the author and bruhsailer authors will defend its efficiency much. plus it might have just lost one of its biggest upside which was speccing at akkha

think most people would be very satisfied with just getting burning claws honestly

[slate dome]

Its not like theres an unlimited amount of good items to farm in rs

I dont see why youd skip over one of the best spec weapons in the game eitherway

[robust roost]

vw is bis pre-nex for multiple things, and it's bis for nex until zcb

skipping it seems silly unless being in the wildy will make you quit rs

not to mention the otherwise ludicrous drop tables on wildy bosses

[somber dagger]

What you think about dragon wand? To bad to get?

[tall lark]

at the same time very few players are even going to make it to the retirment home nex grind

especially now with newer stuff coming out

[robust roost]

idk i think competent level nex is pretty fun

not something i would hold off until post gm

fun and almost every drop is bis in some capacity

especially now that we're probably using half the supplies as usual

melees always come in 3s so you can actually pray melee p2/p3/p4 instead of getting smashed

also gm is almost cosmetic now with masters getting the doubled thrall timer lol

[tall lark]

yeah thats fair man personally i dont even play the game efficiently anyway. i just vaguely follow the chart
the real discussion imo is how worth dragon hunter wand rushing is now

although the drop rate might be questionable

[robust roost]

prob not

you still have to go out of your way to get things like blood moon to make it fast ish

[indigo hollow]

You could probably make do with temotli + zombie axe but that still doesn’t sound great to me

[robust roost]

im a firml believer that zaxe is not worth getting at all

at least not going out of the way for

[dusky fog]

new keris just for TOA

[robust roost]

i was verifying that it didn't replace hasta in the order

[dusky fog]

zombie axe beats hasta at spindel, trust me I'd know :/

idk about cal'varion

artio is bowfa

hasta also used for slayer

[robust roost]

hasta is used for lance

and toa until new keris

[dusky fog]

for sure, much later on though

[robust roost]

so the fact that it has other uses means you'd probably just use it for vw anyway

instead of going out of your way to get what im calcing as a downgrade for off-task spindel

1st setup is zaxe

granted these are 99 stats and zaxe does get relatively better with lower stats

[dusky fog]

Im currently at spindel and z axe beats hasta for me

btw im not making case to grab zombie axe. I just already have had it well before this grind.

They're basically same ttk

https://dps.osrs.wiki?id=TrackingBowlTempor

[robust roost]

yeah they are very close either which way

that's my case against getting zaxe

but if you already have it and it's better then ofc you may as well use it

hasta just ends up being the only viable crush weapon that actually has outside uses (and doesn't involve an egregiously long grind to get)

[hollow cobalt]

huh

[dusky fog]

yeah 1/128 is pretty quick

[robust roost]

i def meant toa

[dusky fog]

I actually got z axe in 15 mins but I was lucky, not representative

[fossil flame]

zaxe is pretty close tbh crush wise

was better for me then hasta on some thing or just slightly worse

[robust roost]

i think the avg grind for zaxe is a couple hours of off-task barraging armored zombies

which, the axe will never make up the time and runes wasted doing inefficient barraging

[fossil flame]

hasta is pretty fast to

[robust roost]

scobow hasta is probably like a ~4 hour grind

and most of that is spent waiting on dumbass gwd respawn timers

i still want to know what they were thinking

these bosses were meant to be killed by a group of like 3-4 people in under 30 seconds per kill

and then another maybe 20-30 seconds for minions

why in gods name is the respawn 90 seconds

[hybrid blaze]

more like 6-7 hours

but yes

[quiet chasm]

thoughts on dragon hunter wand now? worth going for somewhere? (context working on 6th armor seed at cg)

[somber dagger]

Maybe Okey if you farmed the dual machitutuatessesetszhurkb from moons, otherwise proboly not

[quiet chasm]

yeah i have no moons drops

[hybrid blaze]

I don't think the wand is good

[quasi juniper]

What about as a 10% barrage stick? 5% over scepter?

[hollow cobalt]

Purging staff exists

[quiet chasm]

purging staff doesnt autocast, might as well use SOTD at that point

[quasi juniper]

Can that auto ancients?

I didn't think it could. I need to go grab one if it can

[hollow cobalt]

No but neither can the wand right?

[quasi juniper]

wand can

[hollow cobalt]

Still might as well just use the sotd/purging

Is it worth ~20 hrs of clicking huey to autocast? Probably not

[quasi juniper]

Yeah, I am more of trying to support the idea that the wand is not nessesarily "bad" its just not worth the grind.

[fickle drum]

I mean realistically you just use sceptre

[inland cosmos]

That’s exactly it yeah

[hybrid blaze]

ah I got the wand and the 3t weapon mixed again.
Yeah the 10% barrage stick is possibly very good

[hybrid blaze]

I think this is true for sure though

but in practice people autocast a bunch and I can sympathise with getting the wand then

its never going to be efficient though

[quasi juniper]

What if I convince someone else to grind it for me, while I am at work, zero time, afk?

[indigo hollow]

Wait what’s wrong with the 3t staff?

[hollow cobalt]

Might as well just get a NM staff

[hybrid blaze]

the 3t is good, I thought it was also the one with the ancients thing but obviously it isnt

[drowsy ore]

I thought Huey was Less than that for dhw?

If you do 9min kills, at 1/103 rate it would be 15 hours on rate

[fossil flame]

very small thing but i was wondering maybe including bandos here right before torva could be a good idea? would help imply not to stay for bcp/tassets

and include bandos u need to actually make torva

ig it not being on there in first place is already good way to imply not staying for bandos

[opal dagger]

Maybe just put bandos components if that’s what you’re trying to convey

[lunar lodge]

I think that's just extra icons for no reason. Torva implies bandos parts.

[quasi juniper]

Also gl getting that bgs without a few bandos parts

[hollow cobalt]

If you get it you get it

[vague tusk]

recommending abyssal tentacle and not noxious halberd seems a bit weird - tent seems like a bigger nuisance of a detour to get and less useful than nhally thanks to no zulrah/ggs (clogger content but w/e) niche, plus it's worse with void at tob

[crystal narwhal]

Tent>hally everywhere in tob with oathplate

Not saying I disagree necessarily, hally is a super cute item. I’d get it for sure

[fossil flame]

ye that make sense i didint think about that way till now

[sleek prawn]

Does it make sense to grind dragonhunter wand now before slayer grind?

[inland cosmos]

max efficiency wise no, but I don't think it's unreasonable to get the wand

[sleek prawn]

i always do turael skip for slayer after getting a ton of points early on, so i basically only do barrage and tds etc

[midnight dome]

I think the question is do you have reasonable gear to grind the boss with pre slayer

Its probably not the worst idea though

[sleek prawn]

yea exactly

just tryna figure out a way to find a trio team or something

cba soloing it

[midnight dome]

I think its contribution based

[inland cosmos]

it is

[midnight dome]

So doesnt really matter

Solo with 2 alts is better if you happen to have those but trio is more fun

[sleek prawn]

you know if there is a fc to find teams?

[midnight dome]

No sorry

Official world and ask for trios there maybe

[crystal narwhal]

FWIW, doing solo, 2+1, 1+2 or trio is roughly the same.

1+2>2+1>trio/solo I don’t remember

Solo is better than it seems even losing the damage boost because you spend a lot less time waiting for respawn (since you get slow kills)

[sleek prawn]

so you say it isnt neccesary to have 2 alts praying at the entrace when soloing?

[crystal narwhal]

It’s the best method, but just soloing 1+0 is comparable to trios

[sleek prawn]

ohh okay

might try some 1+0 then

[slate dome]

I'm still not sure I understand the wand angle

What's the benefit over just getting sceptre

Id assume its a bofa skip angle?

Bc going huey earlier than you could do muspah must be in some low level gear, in which case youd be griefing yourself/teammates at huey id of thought

[inland cosmos]

wand is +5% magic damage over sceptre

thats the main angle

it can also autocast ancient over other similar +10% magic damage weapons

[slate dome]

Fair

Think im happy enough with the quicker 5% autocast one for the small amount I actually use it

Also cba manual casting so other options out too

[austere pecan]

isnt wand autocast too?

[sleek prawn]

depends how you tackle the slayer grind i guess

[crystal narwhal]

My answer to that guy was based on the assumption that he has human gear (because he has quiver role)

No idea what scuffed Huey is like

[sleek prawn]

im primarily doing barrage tasks, so i will use it a ton

[slate dome]

It is, was saying id rather the quicker 5% than a slower 10%

[crystal narwhal]

Just do an hour and check your kph with rates before committing to it

[sleek prawn]

its not my main iron im on atm and considering huey on, its my 2nd iron

[sleek prawn]

yea 100%

[slate dome]

Ye I didnt assume he was on main

If hes quiver before either staff then more power to him

I was doing huey at like 8min kills with bandos/dhl/mace/bloodmoon

And even at that rate going for wand doesnt seem too appealing

[inland cosmos]

was this before or after tail hp was reduced?

[slate dome]

Before, havent touched since changes

[inland cosmos]

its still inefficient for sure either way

but understandable why you would go for it

[crystal narwhal]

Tons of things are though. This is an item that’s likely going to be your bis autocast for a very long time.

If you go down the actual "worth" time wise rabbit hole you end up with the iron on a pc setup, void.

[inland cosmos]

right

not saying its bad to grind for

but I suspect that its better to manual cast the other staffs instead

in an interactive gear progression chart such as ladlors I don't think it's reasonable to place the wand here

[slate dome]

99% of people arent manual casting slayer

Maybe even 99.5%

[midnight dome]

I did

You get used to it, I still wouldn't recommend it though lol

Just happened to get a sotd before hasta, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered

[sleek prawn]

you are not a human if you manual cast barrage tasks

i can be the first one to say that

[midnight dome]

Just one extra click per cast

[drowsy ore]

The benefit dhw has now is you can decide to get dhw instead of ancient sceptre + mages book. It is +3damgic % dmg over those two.

So you could say that dhw by itself (9 min slow as kills is 14-15 hours on rate) skips; muspah ancient icon, mta mages book, bloodbark top and bottom, as well as royal titans mystic vigour. So dhw probably comes out pretty close in that scenario

But then let’s say you factor in bloodbark as well as vigour and mages book, then you have +5% over the og setup, which I haven’t calved yet but could be a max hit or two on slayer barrages (which is big)

[midnight dome]

I feel like 9 min kills are a pretty generous assumption if you were to get it right after bofa grind (which is when you'd have all the old gear)

My guess would be more in the 12min range

[drowsy ore]

Yeah I do not know the expected time for Huey, but the dps maths at least is easy to work out

[hollow cobalt]

If you want to do ~20 hrs to avoid manual casting, it's fine enough ig

Don't think that's worth throwing on a prog though

[fossil flame]

ye i never saw it like this till now thats interesting then imo

[drowsy ore]

Dhw with vigour and seer (I) still doesn’t push the max hit over to 41

[fossil flame]

main problem i saw with it was huey would be slow but if it allows u to skip book+sceptre and be better thats really competetive timewise i feel for sure

[drowsy ore]

It depends on the kill speed, so
It probably isn’t worth it, but it is dependent on Huey times

[midnight dome]

With venator bow in the progression and mage xp from mage's book it's probably not that big of a timesave on those 2

[fossil flame]

ye thats true to

[midnight dome]

Its only ~2.5hrs on rate for sceptre with a bofa setup

But yeah its just bookkeeping, you could also argue you can use it for scaled chambers

Which makes it a lot more interesting instantly

[fossil flame]

dont u have to be ancients though for scaled?

[midnight dome]

Could also chin

[fossil flame]

if u have to catch chins i feel like thats prob not that crazy

[midnight dome]

Oh no nvm yeah I mean for the barraging part

Not for olm

Although ancient sceptre is pretty good too witht the accuracy bonus

[fossil flame]

oh

[drowsy ore]

You could also do Huey in a few scenarios

1. Get to the magical 37-39 max hit earlier (don’t have to wait for bloodbark and mages book and royal titans mystic vigour)
2. You want to do 40 ice barrages on task instead of 39s for your slayer

[midnight dome]

I think it's cute

[fossil flame]

in general i feel even spending like 4hours or watever for magic book is rough for slayer (just my opinion)

[drowsy ore]

The biggest thing is though you should not do ice barrage slayer without having +11% magic damage. The 37-39 max hit threshold is massive

[fossil flame]

like im not big on massive detouring for aoe maxes

[drowsy ore]

That’s because the 10-11% jump is a +2 max hit

[drowsy ore]

It can be up to a +18 max hit increase

[hollow cobalt]

Purging staff also just exists

[fossil flame]

cant autocast ancients idt

[hollow cobalt]

^

aint no way that's worth including on a chart just for that

[fossil flame]

but ye whole arguement is kinda wierd cuz if u wana be efficent ud prob get sotd then manual cast

[midnight dome]

Kinda but you also get access to ice barrage earlier so its not all wasted imo. Unless you somehow get that just from sepulchre

[mellow matrix]

another W for the 'dont wanna slayer or cg but wanna rush pvm' accounts

just do cox with wand and eclipse set till tbow 🙂

[somber dagger]

Truue, what gear would you even farm huey with?

[vague tusk]

if you're the type of person to skip cg you're probably doing moons instead of the whole rcb shadow thing, and blood moon is right there

if you're doing cg and then getting the dhw instead of an ancient sceptre to do slayer with, grabbing blood moon(+ bonus blue/eclipse pieces) is probably not "worth it" but still a value add for a bunch of misc situations (and plenty of clog slots 🙂 )

[somber dagger]

Yee! It's great for dragon tasks as well, but expensive to use for every task sadly, great for olm pre shadow. Any other place?

Maybe not olm idk, worth it over trident and thralls?

Proboly not

[vague tusk]

i think i heard blood moon is pretty good for a bunch of cox rooms in group situations/if you don't have lance or scythe. the wand, though, is basically for barraging or garbage dragon tasks only iirc

[somber dagger]

I don't think it's worth it after oatplate came out right

[vague tusk]

almost certainly not but IMO the question for stuff like this shouldn't be "does it save time" (for what? in a game where everything whatsoever is a grind?), but "is it useful literally anywhere", to which the answer is yes. guess you could delay until megas and then go completionist ig but who the hell plays like that

[somber dagger]

True, but it's an insane long grind anyways

[serene egret]

great for olm pre shadow if 95 rc yeah?

sounds rough without wrath runes

[hollow cobalt]

no just use a trident

losing thralls is very bad

[serene egret]

in trios?

[hollow cobalt]

yes?

thrall dps good

no thrall dps bad

[midnight dome]

I play like that. Raids are fun, random clogs with bad gear are not imo

[tall lark]

maybe im missing something but i dont see how theres a world getting something which is probably going to be your best barrage weapon for your entire account lifespan would be considered not worth it

on a side note huey loot is very nice. plus jagex have a history of releasing content around new weapons theres a world where we get more mage dragonbane stuff

also reading the stuff about manual casting: how do we value losing hours in efficiency farming a boss vs potentially saving more hours of carpal tunnel/wrist pain?

[mortal perch]

Its a guide; everyone a personal preferences and its ok if you want to not follow it because you value different things

Kodai is bis for barraging, if new content enters the game that make it worth it; im sure they will update the guide; you can't speculate on future content otherwise you could justify anything being in the progression

You would need to try and evaluate if the extra max hit that it gives over x number of hours of barraging is worth the 12? hour grind, I can see how it wouldn't make up for it. But if you wanna get it; just go grind it lol

[tall lark]

yeah kodai is great but my thought process was its a mega rare grind meaning most people will probably never get it. so dhw just might be your weapon for a long time

its also mandatory to grind huey to some degree for huey hide CAs (and huasa seeds good but technically not mandatory i guess)

[quiet schooner]

this isnt a thing

[midnight dome]

Yeah I'm sorry I don't buy getting carpal tunnel/wrist pain from manual casting slayer. You're already constantly running around tagging/stacking npcs.

[slate dome]

I think carpal tunnel comments are just an exaggerated way of saying 'i dislike high apm'

I dont think anyone is actually scared of getting it lol

[midnight dome]

But yeah as others have said, worth it calculations can only get you so far with time spent vs reward and is highly dependent on your goals and methods

[hollow cobalt]

This is just nonsense though, the 15% staffs do in fact exist

[full panther]

made this just now toying with dps calc a bit. gonna make a new one without glory aswell

prob would be tons quicker to write a python script at this point but eh

sec

im unsure wether to have the chart presume manual cast or not, leaning towards yes though

several unconvential assumptions by player standards are already there so why not one more

they know to deviate if they want c:

ok ye i agree with the sentiments that the dhw doesnt go on the prog

but its a nice item no doubt

[midnight dome]

Also makes for engagement farming in reddit

[drowsy ore]

If you were gonna post the ice barrage gear setups, any chance you’d include beserking ring (I)? So people will ask, “why b ring?” And then we can say to always use chally when barraging

[north cloud]

Is it worth going for horn at Yama if I have all oathplate pieces

[fossil flame]

afaik its not good for tob or solo chambers

might be nice for toa in duos if u do those but ur friend can bring

[north cloud]

Alr ty

[fossil flame]

maybe im missing something but ye horn kinda just meh

[north cloud]

I don’t wanna go back to Yama if I don’t have to lol so I was hoping I’d be done after getting the armour

[fossil flame]

ye i think ur most likely gona able to skip it not notice a diffrence

[midnight dome]

It has some very niche uses but personally I'm not going back for it until they add more

[north cloud]

Sounds good appreciate the reply

[tall lark]

personally i think there's a big grey area between redditors being clueless and assuming manual cast slayer. but anyway it is what it is man

[midnight dome]

Its just really not that bad

But maybe I'm out of touch

Then again the whole chart kind of is, atleast thats what people often say lol

[tall lark]

i believe after a certain point u have to consider is it a guide and who is the guide aimed at guiding. and i think theres only so much contentions u can blame on clueless redditors before u get into some contentions where its territory of "well who is this guide even for at this point"

[midnight dome]

Just today one guy was asking for a progression for normal players whatever that means

[tall lark]

maybe im out of touch with this server too, but if i had to guess i would guess a decent % of the people batchesting manual cast probably dont even do it either? but idk

[midnight dome]

Well there is always some line to be drawn in the sand, see also the placement of infernal cape

But imo the point is to map a somewhat logical progression that saves the most time on the way and then you can deviate as you please

Its not really a guide anyways (and it couldn't be), its just a rough outline that has to leave out nuances that a full guide could include otherwise it'll balloon

[tall lark]

i mean if it isnt a guide then why is it shared? especially places like reddit
unless its intended to be ragebait in a circle jerk sense

personally i find quite a lot of stuff useful in bruhsailer/ladlors guide (love it, keep up the good work guys!👍 )
but some other stuff just seems like either elitisim or ragebait aimed at poking fun of people "not in the know" like redditors

[midnight dome]

I don't think that's the intention at all

[tall lark]

and i feel like stuff like endorsing manual casting (again unless im out of touch), is just people "committing to the bit"

[midnight dome]

Its one more click every 5 ticks

[tall lark]

personally i think theres a big difference between that and normal reddit rage stuff like bowfa rush or delaying slayer

[midnight dome]

I mean if your argument is the time spent doesn't really matter much bc its your best autocast staff you can also just head to phosani

[full panther]

i do agree a bit with this yea

the ultimate purpose is that the resource exists for those that want it and for whatever purpose too, be it abide closely by meta, or some inspiration when needed for what goals to pursue, and loose idea of when

as for the chart assuming manual cast or auto cast, i think that the difference made would be if SoTD is considered for inclusion or not, which would include a bit of extra thought, and slayer is some real fuckery to account for tbh

its annoying because the dragon hunter wand kind of forces an "interpretation" here that has not really been required until now

well, that is if the +1 maxhit or whatever is sufficiently significant to warrant its aquisition

again, mathing that out im a bit unfamiliar with truthfully

[tall lark]

cheers bud! and yea i dont think it makes much sense to assume sotd, since so much of the discourse here assumes zammy is a quick grind for hasta

[fossil flame]

i mean its same theory as u dont need ppots if u just 1tflick constantly

theres some human element to it

i think most ppl agree its worth planning for a autocast staff/ppots vses the prob more eff alt

or like flicking torm during slayer

[full panther]

lol these got me looking at my thought processes

comparing ppot farmings vs. 1tick flicking to manual cast feels a bit skewed somehow

1tick flicking is pointlessly effort for not that much effort, because the farm runs get amortized quickly

eh, ye they seem similar. just 1tick flicking seem aids. i get the argument that both are decided by tolerance to higher apm

i think it'd be reasonable to assume that manual cast is implemented then

and users can independently decide if they cba

[full panther]

i also think that shitting on redditors is just kind of a meme . even redditors shit on redditors

of course shitting on ideas is significantly more neutral but aye

best yet is not shitting, who knows

[fossil flame]

ye ppots are a super extreme and manaul cast is more like a extreme/practical

but my point is playing into that with high apm accuracy is prob better in theory even if its not practical

[full panther]

aye. my take is manual cast borders on kind of practical

and ppot 1t is firmly not hehe

[midnight dome]

Yeah this is again arbritrary cutoff but 1tick flicking is way more apm than manual cast barrage for way less payoff. 10% dps (or I guess 5 now) vs saving like 3 ticks per dose of ppot

At around 20 hours sotd doesn't seem that much slower than wand. It also doesn't speed up a lot by being delayed and also gives slayer xp (although admittedly huey also has nice side benefits). My take would be if you want to spend some extra time for a better staff go

• huey if no manual cast
• zammy if manual cast

[quiet schooner]

Manual cast slayer kind of has the down side of not training defense right

So not sure where the cutoff for that being not worth it is

Less 0 time defense XP so u would have to train defense some other way

[midnight dome]

Thats a very good point

I asked with sotd in skillcord back in the day and they said its better to use the 15% staff than downgrade to 5% for defense xp

[somber dagger]

why is td so late on progresion chart?

[full panther]

ancient shards are a major bottleneck

[midnight dome]

ancient shard issues

[strange pawn]

So the strat is to use bofa on zammy?

[slate dome]

Yea

Unless you already have scobo then use that

[strange pawn]

Yeah I dont. Plus I have infused archlight so prob best to do that for DGs

[somber dagger]

would you say barrage nechryls is the new meta now?

[full panther]

Im not all that familiar with the maths that originally stated melee nechs were preferable, i barraged them myself mostly. I'd make a guess that strictly speaking probably no overall, but goal dependent anyways

maybe @hybrid blaze is more familiar?

i think there was some discussion this also but i forget the outcome

[somber dagger]

i guess its alrgiht

[full panther]

guess that settles it

[somber dagger]

no shard=barrage good

[full panther]

who wouldve thought looking it up in the thread could be useful 🪿

[somber dagger]

ye, i guess i could had searched it xD, probably tons of people have asked

[full panther]

aye, was a bit annoyed with my self just now not thinking of that myslf

[tall lark]

hi i have a question. im wondering wasn't this take mostly due to melee exp? if so i'm curious how relevant that would still be nowadays since new enemies like araxxor, yama, even TDs give omega juiced combat xp and aren't short grinds either. giving a lot of melee xp
or was this mostly cause of offering prayer xp

[full panther]

i guess that further weakens the need yea, assuming u do all of those

[tall lark]

idk if its a trend or not but it seems they are continuing to release these kinds of grinds with boosted xp multipliers. i guess to consolidate and streamline your grinds as the game gets older with more content to get through

[midnight dome]

Well if you manual barrage you'll need more defense xp 😉

I think the melee xp is still useful to level quickly for other combat, but they also give prayer xp and tons of seeds and save gp

[drowsy ore]

Melee nechs give good melee xp, herb xp, prayer xp. The melee is kinda solved by chally/ araxxor/ yama. The herb seeds are kinda solved by mixology. The prayer is very good though.

I just didn’t need to route prayer much higher than 85 so that swung it for me.

You would barrage nechs for ancient shards if you still need ancient shards, and you’d melee them after if you have wrath runes

[full panther]

Gear Progression Chart

c:

[unborn night]

For voidwaker grind are wildy weps worth going for?

Or just hasta calv and spindel? And bofa artio?

[somber dagger]

hasta and bofa yes

[mellow matrix]

i think if you care about completionist stuff you would get weapons

cuz like ww for levi/awakened levi, turael, fight cave speed, pnm... acursed scepter is very mildly useful too

theyll actually be usable once the ether change goes thru

cuz rn unless you go rly unlucky youll have to upkeep ether which is cringe af

[wispy prawn]

based on the progression chart, its better to go for BGS over dragon warhammer? doing the slayer grind for zenytes and wonder if worth unlocking lizardmen for passive chance at dwh? or not worth

[austere pecan]

you want both BGS and DWH for various different content

[unborn night]

I actually have scepter lol sadly not either of the other weps at 6k on task dry

[wheat geyser]

Been jumping between the grinds lately, what should my next grind be? Skipping vw right now

1. Toa?
   How would solo 250 toa scale vs 450 duo/trio toa?
2. Skip straight to solo cox? No lance tho
3. Continue doing slayer? Low on points tho
4. Anything else?

[quiet chasm]

Seems like titans for deadeye. There should be a calc for solo vs group invos on wiki. Currently seems like you might be missing a dps spec weapon between vw and burning claws tho

[wheat geyser]

I would rather skip and just go for rigour

Ye, my main spec weapons are dwh,bgs or dds rn

Was doing slayer for TD and araxyte task but i ran low on points and stuck with dagannoth task rn

[quiet chasm]

Elite cas also worth a shout

Seems like you have the gear to send whatever you wanted tho. Solo toa 300s for fang/lb

[wheat geyser]

True, i just wanted to get archers and seers but tbh easier to skip for now and do slayer

[indigo hollow]

Archers is useless, seers only useful if it gives you a max barrage hit tbh

At least until shadow and magus come into play

Fang’s nice for slayer points because it makes dragon tasks good, so detouring for that isn’t a bad idea

Your gear is certainly good enough for ToA at this point. I wouldn’t even consider solo 250s, though, unless it’s in the process of working up to a higher RL. 350-400 is a better target after the recent changes

[wheat geyser]

I have been postponing it a bit cause toa isnt my favourite raid, especially solo.

Maybe i should give it a try after changes

[indigo hollow]

I feel that, lol. I’ve been avoiding going back for a while myself

[wheat geyser]

But is duos so much worse? I know there is a mvp system that screws you a bit

[indigo hollow]

Probably depends on your duo’s dps and skill. If it’s a better enough experience to keep you doing the raid instead of burning out on solos, I’m not sure it really matters

But I’d give solos a shot for sure after the changes

[wheat geyser]

Ty guys

[dusky fog]

Na

[dusky fog]

If you have zombie axe, dps check against hasta to see which is better with your setup

[quiet chasm]

Zaxe should only be SLIGHTLY better only at venenatis, spindle hasta should clear

[dusky fog]

Prob toa for fang/lB then back to slayer for synapses and burning claws since you skipping VW

[dusky fog]

Z axe beat hasta for me at spindel

[quiet chasm]

Fair play then , guess i calced that awhile ago

[normal prism]

Isn't sub 350s better if you want the fang?

[indigo hollow]

Ah maybe, idk the math on it

[hollow cobalt]

Currently I think 395s are probably best

But that will change next week

[normal prism]

for drop rate or efficient completions?

[hollow cobalt]

For fastest fang

[dusky fog]

Changing the weightings to interpolate between the 50 increment thresholds?

[crystal narwhal]

Yeah, will be gradual not every 50.

[tiny belfry]

Hasta is better at spindel when you dwh, iirc around 10 sec even

[vivid mural]

For things like DwH, Voidwaker, BGs in a group Ironman setting can you stop at one in most instances or should you go for duplicates?

[slate dome]

Stopping at one would be annoying af imo

Would be a pain whenever someone logs out with one and forgets to put it in group storage etc

[vivid mural]

We’re pretty good at not doing that, or jumping on if it’s needed

It’s more a case, is there content down the line where us not having multiple of the same going to affect us massively. My thoughts are mostly melee hand CoX if you only have one DwH and 1BGS between three probs going to be less ideal, but is the extra grind worth it or is it better to just keep progressing iygm.

[slate dome]

Yeah I get what you mean, still think I'd choose to get atleast 2 of them

Just incase two people wanna do content requiring something at same time

Like vw is good in tons of places, if you dont have bclaws then even more

[vivid mural]

We’d got 1 VW before TD came out and are like 3 synapse no burning atm.

Was trying to work out if I just double down and go for the second VW or progress account through slayer now as I wasn’t the slayer guy and we have 1 at 95 rcing. Guess there’s no ‘ideal’ solution and it’s more what we would prefer at that point.

It’s because things like fangs are worth grinding for one each, but didn’t know on things like this had same ‘need’

[slate dome]

I mean it really depends what your goal is

Like to me rs is part skilling, part pvm to collect items

If you're choosing to skip the collecting items part and just skill, then you don't need a spec weapon for each person

But if you do plan to pvm, I don't think I see the point in skipping pvm

Unless its 'rush X specific boss and nothing else' as a goal, then ig it makes sense to work out exactly what you need for that raid and get that and no more, but that seems an odd way to plan and you'll run out of content sooner I'd think

[vivid mural]

Yeah, it’s not skipping pvm to skill, it’s essentially like, is it worth me grinding a second VW or is it permissible and I could then grind claws and synapses etc. but still be in a position that we can continue doing ToA, CoX etc on side, which is why we’d originally got the VW.

Also haven’t got shamans unlocked as we got spooned our first DWH so didn’t know if a second would help and worth unlocking and doing them as I do slayer

[drowsy ore]

If my group had 1 of each of dwh, bgs, soul horn, voidwaker, burning claws we would stop

[dusky fog]

Yeah you wouldn’t have one most likely at this point in the gear progression

[robust hazel]

Is it worth bringing runes for double DC if running DWH at spindle

[karmic fossil]

yea DC is good

[slate dome]

10000%

v good there

[dusky fog]

What kc you up to now

[robust hazel]

Nothing notable, around 300 - can't send too much during the week since my only free time is during prime time hours 😩

About to hit it hard tomorrow through Sunday though

I got baited with a fang of venenatis drop

[next sparrow]

Is it worth continuing royal titans after i got both prayers? Im already 86 slayer so im close to trident

[hybrid blaze]

I don't think so

[grizzled crown]

Question is twinflame staff good to go for earlier?

[slate dome]

Tldr is its not really worth it, can find tons of previous discussions in this thread and discussion chat

[somber dagger]

if you ever going to do huey, what gear would you use?

[vague tusk]

ideal would be blood moon, but it certainly won't save more time at huey only than it takes to get, so if you're not into getting random stuff you probably just use like nezzy/torso/str amulet/zombie axe(you'd want to grab a +magic damage staff before hasta, probably)

get sulfur blades for the tail i guess

[slate dome]

I went with bandos+dhl, then bloodmoon+mace for the tail

bandos was kinda unnecessary

[vague tusk]

hmm. might be worth grabbing wand before doing any slayer at all, even the 58-69 stretch for mm2? unlike phantom muspah huey doesn't really require gear or non-melee combat so you could power up your barrages even earlier

[somber dagger]

yee

i probly aint going to do moons, but i want the wand early

[drowsy ore]

You’d be super under leveled by that point

It would only be Ankou and dags you’d barrage that early as well, but good for steel dragons as well

[slate dome]

Huey with those stats would feel awful

[vague tusk]

huey isn't really a DPS check boss - mechanics are really trivial so you don't really need to finish off kills to avoid messing up and dying, and chip damage is really minimal and there's a bank right next to it, so if it takes a while to kill it doesn't really matter. plus you get more value out of the +60% xp modifier if you do it earlier

that said though huey does kind of suck as content in general, but that's an argument for just not doing it early and dealing with ancient sceptre instead lol

[slate dome]

I mean, if the discussion is routing and timesave, the time it takes to kill would be one of the only things that matters imo

[vague tusk]

getting more melee experience early could mean you have 100 combat closer to the time you get 69 slayer so you waste less time at high-ish slayer without bowfa acquired

the way melee works you're going to spend a bunch of time doing bad damage anyway - you ideally want those times to have your DPS matter less or give more XP. huey seems like a good enough example of both of those aspects

[somber dagger]

Yee, he doesn't have to big of defence. Similar to black demons (which is kinda high for early game). But with bonus xp multiplayer it does not seem bad

[craggy granite]

I’m not opposed to sending 25 Huey KC for the CAs and just saying whatever happens happens

[drowsy ore]

May as well do the amox kc as well for the chance of glacial temotialt, they are good on huey tail

[craggy granite]

I got the maccas while doing moons CAs but I agree on that

And will also do amox KC because CAs

I’m a big proponent of try to get spooned

And if you don’t, then keep on gaming

There’s so much content, other than bowfa, don’t lock yourself in anywhere

[fickle drum]

routing is only really relevant with a defined end goal i.e. in this case max gear + a vague assumption of max cape eventually

turbo holy

[grizzled viper]

whats the reasoning behind getting cox prayers before yama? is this assuming mage only for yama?

[drowsy ore]

Infernal helps at Yama more than oath helps gets rigour augury

And the assumption is you use rigour to get infernal

If you are good enough to get infernal pre rigour it might change

[grizzled viper]

ya i got infernal already

so yama b4 cox then ?

[thick spoke]

doesn't really matter, you can do it interchangeably at this point

oathplate makes slash lance slightly better but otherwise it's just newer bandos

[drowsy ore]

From efficiency pov, yes

[craggy granite]

I think personally, mostly because I feel confident about running inferno, I’m pushing off cox and slayer, and slotting in TDs, Zulrah, inferno, ultor, oathplate, avernic earlier

And depending on the delve boss, that might also go in there earlier if demonbane weapons are enough

If delve boss is reasonable enough to do, I think I might be chasing after soulreaper axe early-ish

Which isn’t on the chart cause I get that’s more of if you get it while going for rings, great, otherwise it’s usually not grinded

[hollow cobalt]

I can't see going for axe ever being any good

[craggy granite]

Having it for melee slayer tasks sounds very silly

Is almost the entire thought I’ve had about it so far

[crystal narwhal]

I went for axe, but more as an accident from not getting any ingots, I wouldn’t recommend going for axe unless you’re completions and have shadow

[craggy granite]

Yeah, if the delve boss makes whisper less awful I’m inclined to consider

[crystal narwhal]

Scythe is a better way to spend your time. Axe is great, but the grind is too long to make it worth early on

[hollow cobalt]

There's no way on earth that a 100 hr item is gonna be worth grinding over just using a hasta for slayer

[craggy granite]

That’s pretty much my entire thought about that

[drowsy ore]

Yama early would be nice because of the juicy melee xp

ToB early is nice if you got a group

[craggy granite]

Yeah, more of if I want to get ultor early anyways, maybe magus

Yama and Tob I’m inclined to do

And ultor

[hollow cobalt]

Doing tob early makes sra even more uselss

[drowsy ore]

Ultor sucks to get without high melee stats

[crystal narwhal]

Ultor is crazy good

[hollow cobalt]

sra is for tob avoiders if anyone

[craggy granite]

I figure that with TDs, Yama and ToB I’d get good melees for ultor

[fossil flame]

sra just sucks to use to imo its a very gimmicky wep

ive kinda come around to dt2 more since u get free virtus pieces at a reasonable rate while getting vestiges

which is better then sra itself imo

[craggy granite]

Yeah, that’s more the thought. Though I don’t know if there’s much of a reason for Whisperer & Leviathan?

[fossil flame]

ye i think magus/ultor and dip and u have good chance to come out with 2 vpieces

[craggy granite]

Sounds good to me

[fossil flame]

these days ur recc post 95 slayer/lance/yama u should be fine then i think

[craggy granite]

Fang is for dragon tasks, right?

[drowsy ore]

Yeah I was saying in response to early vard (before that)

[craggy granite]

Also as the melee weapon upgrade

How much exp is the combination of TDs and Yama?

[drowsy ore]

Xp for the 2500 Hp Yama x 82.5% increase x expected kc

[quiet schooner]

U should just get axe because it's a cool item to have not because it'll save u time to scythe or whatever

[crystal narwhal]

That’s usually my logic. Cool, use case, clog

[serene egret]

you will get 99 melees on yama

its like 180k/hr

[round pond]

can i skip vw/dpick/blowpipe for toa (fang/lb/thread) ?

[hollow cobalt]

Sure

Pick saves basically 0 time now , bclaws are solid at lower invos. No BP isn't ideally but the raid is clear able

[full panther]

(why is that?)

the pick

[lunar lodge]

"The Hitpoints on the Obelisk on the Path of Het are slightly reduced, so that 1-downs don't require boosting above 99 Mining."

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Update:Summer_Sweep-Up:_Combat_%26_Loot#ToA_Puzzle_Changes

Rune Pickax will now 1-cycle a portion of the time, but not 100% of the time

[full panther]

ah

[hollow cobalt]

You'll get it almost always with rune pick

Dwarven stout from 99 to 100% it

[dusky fog]

The profession chart has you going for fang/Lb prior to blowpipe anyways

Vw nice to have makes the raid go smoother and faster. Can use burning claws instead if you have them.

[radiant pelican]

so do i just never unlock basilisks? i dont see the jaw on here

[austere pecan]

Oathplate gud

[opal dagger]

Friendship with basilisk knights ended

[radiant pelican]

what helm would i use at cox then?

[opal dagger]

oath

[radiant pelican]

then why is it after cox items in the gear progression chart?

[opal dagger]

for the prayers just use a nezzy. The reason its after is because infernal cape is great at yama

if you're not doing inferno before yama then you don't need to do cox first.

Long term cox grind you'll want oath

[radiant pelican]

ok, i was just going to do cox for the prayers like in the chart. ill stick to nezzy then

[vague tusk]

or you can just do basilisks to slightly slow down your slayer training in return for a neat item you can use in a few places before oath helm

[radiant pelican]

where else would i use it?

[vague tusk]

first colo, some toa if you do it before oath but after some slayer, any hueycoatl you do while prepping infernal cape off the top of my head

[radiant pelican]

yeah i may just unlock em for an afk task to do at work tbh. thanks for the advice. will stay suboptimal on this one

[terse matrix]

people that have fully completed the chart, what u doing next ? xd

[serene egret]

https://tenor.com/view/cartman-now-we-can-finally-play-the-game-gif-26486523

[slate dome]

Kinda just a clog, or deiron and go for speeds angle

[fossil flame]

feel like its so much easier to make a new main then deiron

but ye ive seen ppl just deiron and also seen many regret it and come bac to iron

[cloud girder]

I'm super early game tbh, but i'm still rocking the ironman armor with 30 def. Should I get adamant or just wait for rune? I've just been following the quest guide order on the wiki so far.

[hybrid blaze]

ideally you go for proselyte and fighter torso

the quest guide order isnt very good but its a fun way to explore the game

[cloud girder]

Yeah I've noticed that it has me going all over the place tbh

I chanced losing my hc because i was fed up walking everywhere so I hit the mage arena guy for laws and did arceus library to like 50 magic lmao

[inland cosmos]

the optimal quest guide order has the only goal of putting quests in a order such that the xp from the quests go towards the reqs for future quests

[quiet schooner]

If u don't know what ur doing I would just lose the hardcore status now

[cloud girder]

I found out about the guides on this disc when I was already a good couple of days in, but truthfully they're a little too detailed for me.

[quiet schooner]

Being a hardcore and not knowing the game precludes u from playing the game

[cloud girder]

I have a main that's decently leveled, but ironman feels like a completely different game for me.

I always abused GE on my main and constantly had more money than I should for my levels

[hybrid blaze]

Just be careful with HC. Sometimes people will say "oh I dont care about HC status, I just want to see how long I can keep the red helm" and it's such a harmful way to play the game imo

before you know it you're avoiding all kinds of content, and if you ever make it to midgame you have to make major sacrifices to keep the status

[cloud girder]

I'm not going to avoid bossing or anything like that. If I'm not comfortable with any content I could always just practice it on my main. The main thing I tend to avoid is wildy.

[hybrid blaze]

ah shit its too late for you, 🫡

[slate dome]

This is kinda the trap hes saying you should avoid

Things like prayer are giga slow if you avoid wildy

Doing that for a status you wont keep anyway is meh

[cloud girder]

I guess I had already figured I was gonna do ectofongus from the jump

do most hcim do chaos altar?

or should you only do hcim if you know you can max on it

[hybrid blaze]

I think most do ectofuntus but its better to do poh altar or even varlamore

I'm not sure why you are set on maxing, but if you are I'd recommend planning ahead

Wildy altar is nearly twice the xp per bone and several times faster than the hcim alternatives

some hcim also double down by not killing green dragons, which slows them down a ton more

you're also losing out on e.g. gravestone methods, some people even avoid battlestaves

[cloud girder]

I'll consider dropping the hc status then

tbh i just picked it because I figured well if I die i'm just regular ironman anyways

but I don't think I'm at the point in my account yet that I have to worry about it since I'm just questing still

[fossil flame]

wow hc streamers is kinda good live evidence why u prob shouldint make a hc without a lot of experince

u can play a safe hardcore skiller though but ye why play hc at that point

[full panther]

i been curious about making a wow refugee chart version

but most just do their own shit at that point so a moderate chance that there is no point to that kind of thing

[tall lark]

is there a chance this chart and bruhsailer routing could go through a sizeable revision after Mokha? depending on how Mokha ends up playing out, how viable it is to do at what account stage, and the drop rates of the new staff + torm upgrade etc. The staff in particular could be an incredible acquisition

reason being (even though i did bowfa rush myself), i think we all can admit jagex have been trying to push people away from the tried and tested cg > gwd > toa route slowly but surely, and it seems Mokha (and Yama) could be gearing up to be their "magnum opus" for the whole alternative/demonbane style route. Bowfa is still strong in its own right and 100% worth getting, but I feel a lot of the stuff it "unlocks" (gwd, early toa rush) have been taking hits.

and given that the demonbane/varlamore route includes stuff that either is delayed or exluded entirely in the current routes (compared to how early others have been doing it), i think its possible that it might not be as simple as plotting Mokha somewhere along the route. e.g already DHW is a thing, but hard to even consider in your existing route due to no blood moon.

i know theres a ton of speculation here of course, so feel free to write everything off. but just something i've been thinking about. curious if anyone else has been speculating stuff similarly. On a side note I think the potential slayer changes could also impact the value of early fang making dragons quick point tasks.

[hollow cobalt]

Yes of course it's possible that things change when updates happen

[tall lark]

thanks for the input lol

[hollow cobalt]

If i had to guess it would be pre-cox but there's no way to know

[crystal narwhal]

I think the "good old" routing will always be good, but that there will be options that aren’t giga troll to do

Seems like they’ve added more freedom to the mid game on different paths to take, bis meta still bis but troll meta is less troll

[tall lark]

i know what you mean but I dont even think troll could be a word in the conversation. i feel like u could genuinely speculate doing stuff like yama and mokha earlier and walking away with some insane gear, making it a genuine meta. again heavy speculation here

e.g im imagining a route where u could get oathplate + mokha gear at the same time someone in the current gear progression chart got a fang from toa. and u being better off with the former

[loud panther]

I've wondered about this, I think that bowfa will still be the meta route but the bowfa skip/demon rush route will be very decent for people that dont want to CG

[tall lark]

personally i would 100% rush bowfa again, but cause its strong gear in its own right. so getting bowfa cause its bowfa. but i feel the things it traditionally "unlocks", i dont think i care as much about a lot of it anymore.

i think these days u can argue bowfa is stronger than the stuff it unlocks

[loud panther]

Agreed, gwd and early fang feel less impactful nowadays

I think that the demonbane route will still want bowfa eventually though, so its one of those things where you may as well get it first

[hollow cobalt]

Still gonna want it for toa right? even if you don't do toa that early

[craggy granite]

The issue with most non-bowfa routes for me is that ranged weapon gear would just be so bad

Technically demonbane magic + arclight probably works well enough though

[loud panther]

Yeah you probably want bowfa for toa. Bowfa is better on wardens (but wand+gloves are pretty solid). Wand is better on akkha, but you need a full mage switch. And its very bad on zebak

[fossil flame]

i dont really see how mokha can replace bowfa

[loud panther]

At least in the calcs I ran

[fossil flame]

i dont see how a magic weapon esp eye can replace a range weapon

even with shadow u still have to use bowfa

[craggy granite]

I assume you can get to Zulrah with it and then get blowpipe

[fossil flame]

i see ye

[hollow cobalt]

biggest question is what gear you need for it

[craggy granite]

People would need to do sepulchre and zmi till wrath’s if trying to route that way

Which at that point

Get bowfa nerd

[fossil flame]

whole route is ironic imo cuz it seems more of a pain in ass imo/harder then just getting bowfa idk

[craggy granite]

Like the same routing overall just that you can’t really do cg and get gp in the meantime

Like you can at cg

[loud panther]

Lol yeah thats the other thing, CG is great if youre new to pvm. Yama is a p tough fight and I think mokha will be the same

[full panther]

bowfa was such a mistake lol

[fossil flame]

feel like cg meta is more interesting personally then pre bp

[inland cosmos]

bowfa itself is not a mistake, it's the minimal requirements to aquire it that is the mistake

[craggy granite]

Not having decent ranged options available in between kind of a problem

[loud panther]

Better than pre-bp, but I still think its a stale meta

[inland cosmos]

sure, but it doesn't help that bowfa requires no gear at all

[craggy granite]

Yeah, it’s that getting gear that ain’t bad kind of is the problem

[inland cosmos]

any middle step between rcp/msb and bowfa are all obsolete because you can just get bowfa

[fossil flame]

thats where mokha and these other additions come in to help meta routes not be as meta

[craggy granite]

If there was a route to get Fang without needing Bowfa, that’d be much better

[fossil flame]

rcb/msb is like 10seconds into an account idt that should compete against something like cg hours wise/drop rate/difficulty

[craggy granite]

I think demonbane route for most people is limited by gp, it’s so much more expensive

[inland cosmos]

what I mean is that if you want a decent ranged weapon to stop cg to be the meta route it needs to either be stronger than bowfa or really easy to aquire to the point that it is alright to skip out on bowfa

the minimal reqs for bowfa is the problem

[fossil flame]

bp is really good its just the scales that are a issue

[craggy granite]

There’s probably a zombie axe wildy meta into demonbane mokka

I assume that wildy gets funds

[hollow cobalt]

I mean sure this is possible but it might be very bad, who knows

[loud panther]

How long would dcb take with the slayer changes? Dcb+dragon rubies would be okay in a lot of places. Rune dragons probably suck though lol

[hollow cobalt]

dwh rune dragons

[loud panther]

Oh I guess I'm assuming you have a fang for that lul

[craggy granite]

Doing sepulchre & zmi until wraths to fund tormented demons and demonics doesn’t sound the worst, I just don’t get how it makes any gp

[hollow cobalt]

Sepulcher gives gp

[craggy granite]

Yeah, but is that funding construction & smithing etc like cg does

[inland cosmos]

one thing I am wondering tho for that path is how you would kill tds

how do you upkeep arclight

and what is the other weapon of choice

[craggy granite]

Demonbane Magic

[inland cosmos]

hmm right

[craggy granite]

Idk the dps there, but you’d be able to run that with scepter probably from muspah & mage’s book

And mage muspah

[hollow cobalt]

sceptre for muspah is never particularly important lol

so no you don't need it at all

[fossil flame]

i have a friend that is skipping bowfa doing atlatl/ he just recently got acb and got his quiver recently

like u dont need bowfa to play but it helps alot same thing with mega rares

[craggy granite]

What’s the magic boost weapon there then

[hollow cobalt]

you just use something without a boost

over grinding a 5% boost which does fuck all

[craggy granite]

True

[loud panther]

That's pretty cool. Did he do zily with an rcb or something?

[hollow cobalt]

Back in my day that's what everyone did 👴

[slate dome]

Back in my day we duo veracs for zily

With the guthans switch

[fossil flame]

i think so ye

[loud panther]

Osrs zoomers when someone kills a boss with a weapon thats not bowfa 😮

Seems like a cool route honestly, eyeball for things like warden and then choose between pipe and acb when you need range

[fossil flame]

hes a good player i just think 90% of it is he doesint have prior cg experince so hes anti doing cg

[fossil flame]

its cool but just putting urself disadvantage

like i told him he could have just grinded bowfa nearly by the time he got moons green logged

[loud panther]

Yeah, you definitely want a bowfa before e.g. megas and I think moons is probably dead no matter what

[hollow cobalt]

"moons is dead", insert the "always has been" meme

[hybrid blaze]

I think banking on the new staff being a cg skip is mostly one in a very long line of pipe dreams

yes, leaving cg partway through to do slayer is a bad idea

if you want a break id focus on one of like seven skills

so pick one of the other like five skills

leaving cg to do combat is imo just poor

mixing it up with skilling is really good

you're 98 agil, 93 craft, 89 smith, 95 rc, 90+ wc, 90+ mining yet? 😉

to be clear these are very long grinds, its completely fine to not have all of these done asap

im just sharing some alternatives to combat

oh I missed 83 cons

and 90+ fletch

[tall lark]

i mentioned that its not about skipping CG but the stuff that bowfa "unlocks" potentially being not as useful as other new stuff

[quiet schooner]

U use shadow at most places u would have otherwise used bowfa

At least traditionally

The problem is shadow is so good because of it's accuracy

The eye doesn't have that so it's just like a juiced magic weapon where magic is good afaik

[tall lark]

doesnt new staff calc pretty close to shadow in many situations?

especially without max gear

[quiet schooner]

It doesn't have the game breaking accuracy of shadow

[hybrid blaze]

I'd have to run the calcs. Accuracy is really important

[quiet schooner]

But maybe with the torm upgrade it doesn't matter

[hybrid blaze]

if it requires a half dozen other items to be very powerful its not a viable mid level item

[quiet schooner]

Bowfa just requires nothing to get and gives u a shit load of supplies in retirn

I just can't see a reason to skip it

U can do like 6-7 kph as soon as u finish sote

[tall lark]

will have to check calcs again but pretty sure it didnt require high end items at all. like with any one of ahrims/blue moon/bloodbark it might even have hgiher dps than shadow in places. will have to check calcs again

also the rune cost looks very reasonable. deaths and chaos

[quiet schooner]

Ig if u are remaking and the thought of bowfa again looks boring then u can just go do whatever progression u want

[tall lark]

idk im speculating not to count this demonbane route out as a genuine meta. will have to wait and see anyway

jagex certainly seem to be shilling for it

[hollow cobalt]

Think this is just mega

[tall lark]

i mean they have blatently just released 2 back to back endgame demonbane bosses

along with a lot of new content having boosted xp multipliers

[hollow cobalt]

Getting from "demonbane" to "anti-bowfa" is uh.. something

[tall lark]

i feel like ive said this 3 times now but no where in my speculation did i think anti bowfa or cg skip

🤷‍♂️

[loud panther]

Maybe I'm speculating too hard because we don't know anything about drop rates/setups

But I think we'll go for gloves/boots right around the cerb/occult step. And then if we dont get eyeball, simply camp for shadow using trident

[hollow cobalt]

At the end of the day this is all pointless without any info on reqs or droprates lol. Like sure before nm release you could have theorycrafted about going to nm with a dmace and grabbing inq+mace and then using that as your melee gear forever instead of doing slayer... but like that wouldn't exactly have worked out in your favour