Gear Progression Chart

[quartz delta]

Second message is halfway reasonable, not used to that on said platform

[hybrid blaze]

the one by ladlor, who made the gear chart?

sorry that was more snarky than intended

[quartz delta]

But appreciate the jest - At least they're upfront about not caring to understand the why

[full panther]

i got me an acknowledgements section 😔

[full panther]

i remain a bit inconfident in fang at royal titans vs. prayers at ToA

[low stag]

Moons is copium for irons who are bad at the game

[somber dagger]

Hey, you offended 99,9% of reddit

[hollow cobalt]

LAWD https://i.imgur.com/30w7j1e.png

[woven nova]

ya i saw that lmao

bro never heard of crabs or nmz

oh u werent the poster

[quiet schooner]

When people whine on Reddit about "efficiencyscape" but the things they're whining about aren't even efficient 💀

[hybrid blaze]

No idea. The mage scroll after toa, but range could go either way

[grizzled crown]

is zombie axe worth getting because i dont see it on here?

[opal dagger]

No sir

[vague tusk]

zombie axe costs time if you go by this route exactly but the later you get hasta the better zaxe is

i only got hasta at 87 slayer so i'm very glad i got zaxe personally

also getting one means you can send a few calvarion trips during cg grind which is nice - efficiency would recommend skilling instead but skilling is frankly pretty boring and feels endless

[midnight dome]

it's a very short grind either way if you barrage zombies

[craggy granite]

Dossier hot fixed to 1/12 now apparently

For Yama

[sturdy jewel]

im often surprised by the Zaxe hate, its paid me dividends for the short grind it took to get, but im not trying to play super efficient so each to their own

[craggy granite]

I think z axe and warped scepter worked out nicely as mobile grinds for me, but if I had to do something more actively instead I very much did not touch them

There was something more pressing and effective to do

[crystal narwhal]

The less efficiently you play and the more inefficient early pvm you do the better they probably are though.

Zaxe isn’t horrible on paper if you barrage, get it if you want it kind of thing

[midnight dome]

there is no hate really, it's not efficient to get but it's not a big timeloss either

[fiery steppe]

I fell into the zombie axe hype, it took me 3,000 kills 😂 I wanted to do the moons grind, it’s great for eclipse, but honestly I stuck with d scim, even for my slayer tasks, feel like the d scim out performs it, and after experiencing 5 tick weapon, not a fan lol

[hollow cobalt]

Zaxe is mostly a "I want to do some early pvm for fun" item

[blazing fern]

why are bandos hilt and bgs slotted in to different places?

[low stag]

Probably because you stay at bandos for the hilt and finish the shards at zammy

[blazing fern]

duh, yeah that's definitely it. thanks

fighter torso all the way until oathplate is interesting

and no tassets - what are they replaced by?

[inner forge]

Obby legs if they give a maxhit -> oathplate I assume

[sonic elm]

How long is Fang + LB expected to take at ToA? I gotta learn it fresh and am looking forward to the experience.

[fickle drum]

the reason I advocated for this change is that you have a ~55% chance of getting tassets (and also bcp cuz they're the same drop rate) when you're going for bgs

so the upside of only going for bgs is that you're already likely to get a pretty nice buff to your acc while getting the item you need, while going for the set itself + bgs means you're putting yourself into a situation where you're doing bandos for items that are just a pretty nice buff

[craggy granite]

I think sticking around for bandos armor and not getting any other skills up or more meaningful progression would just feel a bit of a "eh, what am I doing"

for +1 str bonus and defense bonuses, I'm better off training a lot of other things or going for other upgrades

at that point for myself

like I wasn't planning on sticking around for all the bandos armor

[fickle drum]

the only junction in the progression chart where you statistically want tassets is yama pretty much, although they could also give a max hit at TDs obviously

so you're saving a good few hours overall probably, but not enough to go dry for tassets imo

[craggy granite]

+1 str bonus is like one more max hit every 4 levels?

i'm not sure how that math works out tbh, I'm pretty bad at understanding max hits

[fickle drum]

yama has a 1.2x demonbane weakness and the emberlight has a 1.7x strength bonus multiplier

[craggy granite]

gotcha

[fickle drum]

so in some setups (notably the one on the progression chart you would have at that point) you lose 2 max hits at yama at 99 str

[craggy granite]

would you be at 99 strength at that point?

[fickle drum]

if I was sure you would be 99 strength I would have calced it more deeply

but that's just a notable case

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I thought that I'd probably be around 90s str and 80s atk

having not actually thought too much about it

[fickle drum]

yeah I have no idea of current iron routing cuz my acc is too old for slayer just giving you a shitton of melee xp

[craggy granite]

I'll get back to you in a few months

Oh, BGS might be after zenytes?

cause anguish

icon -> slayer -> zenytes -> gwd for hilt & hasta -> tds

and then yama double death charge

I don't see where I'm using BGS on the slayer grind at that point

[fossil flame]

1/3.4 purples for each largely depends on raid lvl as well for purp rate

[full panther]

its looking like TDs that early also is unrealistic possibly because of arclight charge constraint, so looking into that aswell

[drowsy ore]

You get 1.3 ancient shards per bloodvelds task if you don’t use expeditious or slaughter
0.62 per fire giant task
0.9 per dags task in catacombs
2.17 per dust devil task and
0.23 per ankou

Zenyte on rate is also 9 ancient shards
Synapse on rate is 18 shards

0.98 shard per bloodvelds task if you use expeditious

[hybrid blaze]

I'd dump the bloodvelds and fire giants, the rest is sweet

[drowsy ore]

This was an excel I made to calculate xp gained and how many ancient shards you’d get and this bracket was the 58-69 slayer

Hence the bloodvelds and fire giants

The bottom right corner puts it at 14.5 ancient shards for that 447,000 xp

[hybrid blaze]

Nice. I think the primary goal should be to aim for two zenytes by 80 slayer

then tds can be done after toa

[drowsy ore]

Which is not accurate since dust devils only unlock at 65 not 58, so you’ll get less ancient shards

[hybrid blaze]

the variance on all of this is huge though

[drowsy ore]

O yeah variance is massive. The more important thing is expected shards per the actual catacombs task

It’s just the average slayer task amount x ancient shard drop rate + totem piece weighted at 0.41 shard, + 1/200 superior (which is another 0.41 shards due to guaranteed totem) + superior’s ancient shard drop rate

It’s also another reason why elite CA is important since it changes the effective ancient shards drop rate from for example dust devils from 1/138 -> 1/126

[untold totem]

Claws help at toa, how do toa drops help with TDs?(other then thread)

[craggy granite]

I’ve got a probably hot take that isn’t very relevant/realistic, but so many upgrades are already long grinds. And for whoever can get a colo & inferno completion early, putting those seem good

Especially because it’s a one and done

[hybrid blaze]

toa helps with slayer and TDs take forever

[untold totem]

i'd have imagined you have arclight + fbow by the time you're ready for toa, and those are what you'd use at TDs no?

[hybrid blaze]

if you do TDs first you'll be high 80s slayer before you're done

[craggy granite]

Like even time to learn, eg inferno is a +4 str bonus that needs bowfa + ancient icon, blowpipe as a bonus

[hybrid blaze]

ive seen some people commit to the scobow for zammy or the claws for toa and then act all surprised when they havent made enough progress by 87 slayer or w/e

[untold totem]

fair - i suppose claw drops are high variance and i'm already at ~2m slayer exp without a second claw drop

[hybrid blaze]

just the TDs task alone is over a million slayer xp for droprate

but all the other tasks alongside also add 2-3x that

skipping out on toa or elite cas or more zenytes for so long is really not good

[inland cosmos]

So TDs after elite cas?

[drowsy ore]

Just did some maths on ancient shards 69-80 slayer

Following the slayer guide blocks and skips etc

[craggy granite]

How many shards do we need total?

[drowsy ore]

9 per zen 18 per synapse

[craggy granite]

For Emberlight?

[drowsy ore]

And if you do exactly as guide says, with high variance you get 22.8 on way from 69-80

[craggy granite]

Also does that calc include the shards from totems?

[hybrid blaze]

imo yes

I think the route is 2 zenytes first, then gwd and toa, then tds and the other two zenytes

[drowsy ore]

Some things to note; EASDR is expected ancient shards drop rate per task, which is;
Dags 1.3
Ankou 0.27
Dust devils 2.6

[drowsy ore]

Yes

[somber dagger]

Doesnt td have insane combat xp multiplayer? Good to train melee there before toa?

[inland cosmos]

I assume that also delays rite of vile transference?

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[hybrid blaze]

big xp multiplier, not good to train there

[drowsy ore]

If you look at the maths though it says that you do 1139 demonic gorillas

[craggy granite]

Also damage multiplier so more stats is better

[hybrid blaze]

yeah so this overestimates the amount of dgs pre toa

[drowsy ore]

So obviously you’d probably do ~600 on rate for 2 zenytes which obviously lowers the slayer xp total

[hybrid blaze]

theres some xp from kril as well

[inland cosmos]

interesting

[drowsy ore]

30 to charge emberlight, but it’s moreso 9 per zen and 18 per synapse. The 30 isn’t the roadblock

[craggy granite]

I’ll probably calc out some options for myself

[hybrid blaze]

yeah the 30 shouldnt be the issue, though it is for people doing TDs first

[drowsy ore]

Yeah in the slayer guide they had the one offs

[craggy granite]

Yeah, I just don’t want to run out of charges

And want to be mindful of how to approach slayer

[hybrid blaze]

TDs first would be nice in a few ways:

• you can just fang dgs and save charges
• emberlight for nechs and dgs
• scobow for zammy
• decent xp

but they take too long, scale too hard, require too many shards and the rewards arent high enough priority

the non-demonbane resistance also means that you really dont want to downgrade from arclight at tds

if the synapse droprate was like 1/150 or 1/200 they'd go first for sure

[drowsy ore]

The main thing every can take away though is the effective drop rate of ancient shards
1/168 for dags
1/176 for ankou
1/113 for dust devils
And the expected amount of ancient shards per catacomb task, which is
Dags 1.3
Ankou 0.27
Dust devils 2.65

So change all the maths for your own personal blocks and every other variable.
But you have do a lot more dust devils tasks than you actual get given is the point

[craggy granite]

I don’t mind doing 1 synapse potentially and then just running through synapse related content for a few hours

Can’t make an Emberlight either way and can save arclight charges

[hybrid blaze]

even a single synapse is likely around 1.5-2m slayer xp in total, between all the tasks

[craggy granite]

Oh

Yeah fuck that

[drowsy ore]

The maths you’ll have to do is expected very roughly 14 shards 58-69 then 22 shards 69-80 but you have to factor in the one offs, setting up blocks etc. and also that once you hit “18 shards” which is rate for two zenyte, ALL your arclight charges then go into tormented demons

[craggy granite]

TDs can wait

🤝

[hybrid blaze]

Wolf to be clear I'm saying TDs after 80

so if you are estimating 36 shards by 80 that's comfortable

[drowsy ore]

Yeah perfect

[hybrid blaze]

also post 80 you can include barrage nechs if you have to, and definitely should include barrage abby demons past 85

they contribute a lot of shards and TDs wont be done by 85

[drowsy ore]

No one should do TD before 80

[inland cosmos]

sounds good

[drowsy ore]

The maths agrees with you imo. You don’t have the shards to do td pre 80

[hybrid blaze]

its actually much worse than it seems to do TDs early because they will give massive slayer xp

so you get far fewer other tasks en route to 80

[full panther]

from what im seeing here, it seems moving the synapse weps here, and the dc2 upgrade in the block after would be a more realistic choice?

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[drowsy ore]

You need 8.1 ancient shards to do 1 tormented demon task

[hybrid blaze]

and two zenytes pre toa, and the other two around the same time as tds

[full panther]

tort and anguish as the first two?

[hybrid blaze]

yes

I think honestly the last two zenytes could be later but I'd just do them on task there

you wont even have to block the task in between

[inland cosmos]

delaying torm huh, interesting

[hybrid blaze]

though you could, maybe

[hybrid blaze]

I mean... its not great

[slate dome]

barely use torm

[hybrid blaze]

im not even sure where you'd use it early

[slate dome]

just toa?

[inland cosmos]

is it not good for toa?

[slate dome]

idk even worth for that

[full panther]

the usecase would be toa, and at toa u prefer to minimze mage as it is ur worst style by widem argin right

[hybrid blaze]

I would not carry it into toa

its better in the bank

[inland cosmos]

I see then I agree that you could delay it

[craggy granite]

Slayer uses the bracelets either way

Right?

[hybrid blaze]

yeah the slayer barrage tasks are mostly slaughter bracelets

and/or exped

I have used torm before for barrage but its a weird pick

[drowsy ore]

Actually I calculated a totem piece is worth 1 shard not 0.41 so it’s actually worse than you expect

18 shards on way from 69-80 slayer

[hybrid blaze]

oh thats cutting it real close

[drowsy ore]

Updated

1 shard per dag task
0.21 ankou
2.1 dust devils

[hybrid blaze]

im less sure about this now. Thats exactly droprate for two zenytes

TDs are definitely a no-go, but the zenytes might already be too much

[drowsy ore]

But also you get shards 58-69

[hybrid blaze]

oh those werent included mb

[drowsy ore]

You have 10-15 leeway from 58-69

I went and checked each cell from my 58-69 sheet and saw I missed it

The main takeaway is still; Do NOT do TD before 80

[full panther]

ok, i moved some things around

[inland cosmos]

this might be a dumb question, but why is ros in its own column instead of together with the previous block?

[full panther]

residue of always being seperate from the other three in lack of importance

at this point that whole block is a "pre cerb" slayer dump

[hybrid blaze]

I think the main consideration for the last two zenytes isnt 'where would you use this' but 'do you want to block then unblock black demons for this so you can use emberlight at dgs, or just power through in parallel'

[full panther]

might aswell put it in there now?

[hybrid blaze]

I agree

nothing much happens between 80 and 95 slayer

thats basically one set of goals

[full panther]

neat

im not sure if your stance is these blocks could get collapsed too, or if this is fine as is

rite clearly after emberlight, cerb boots preferably after emberlight too

[hybrid blaze]

I think they could all get collapsed, or you could split out the ones with a hard slayer level req. Whichever is least confusing imo

I personally dont have a preference

[inland cosmos]

could put rite in the same block as cerb boots maybe?

[full panther]

its a little bit unique in not being slayer related. tbf neither is achievement diary cape

oh well no it is

93 slayer, i forgot

[hybrid blaze]

it might be wise to move dwh more to the left because id start that pre 80

though I guess its not necessary

[inland cosmos]

I think its better to put rite after block with tds just to really show that it needs those, but otherwise you could put it in any of the two other blocks afterwards imo

[drowsy ore]

Also FYI you get expected 2.57 ancient shards per nech task and 2.27 per abyssal demon task. TIL that nechs have a better drop rate than abbys for shards

And at weighting of 9 and 12, you solve your ancient shards problems with those two monsters

[hybrid blaze]

yeah, though if you have enough shards you ideally dont barrage nechs

its more of a failsafe

[drowsy ore]

Well you kinda gotta barrage them pre abbys since you still only relying on dust devils (weighted 5) and 1 per dag task

[hybrid blaze]

not if you have shards carried over from earlier

[drowsy ore]

That’s true

[hybrid blaze]

but melee nechs also consume a lot of shards

[full panther]

do you happen to have a link to this table?

for easy referencing

[drowsy ore]

What’s easiest way to send an excel doc I made

[full panther]

ah its not a google spreadsheet

uh, sharepoint probably

thats gonna be aids for non-license owners to view lol

[craggy granite]

Why are infernal cape and quiver considered such end game upgrades btw

[drowsy ore]

I’ll see if I can copy it into sheets

[full panther]

they're a bit of "this is how late it is reasonable to delay them" type of situation

gamers that know their limits are capable of gauging when they want to get them

the rest can have a "if you dont have this yet, now is a good time to send attempts"

[craggy granite]

There are a lot of other bossing that just takes longer to grind and we have more and more now that makes them more reasonable

gotcha

[somber dagger]

First infernal cape ever takes proboly 30-50 hours on average right?

[craggy granite]

Thoughts of like “man, for avernic, etc upgrades they’re how long?!?”
Inferno as long as it’s not gp gated is a +4 str bonus

[full panther]

huge variance, and hard to compute any expected value for

[full panther]

but seems accurate tbf

[craggy granite]

For first time completion and given it’s one and done, putting it at that for one, and then doubling or 1.5x for the other (quiver) or whatever order

e.g. inferno vs yama before ultor

If time to complete those is approximately equal

[full panther]

i dont follow what you're saying here

[craggy granite]

Basically saying I know those end game capes are end game and more just bonuses for those who can do them, but also just trying to get in my head the value of the time needed to unlock those upgrades

In terms of time spent

Given how much other grinds exist

Mostly I’m going to bully my friends

[hollow cobalt]

Rigour+bp is a good time to do them for first cape.

If you're good you can do it whenever you want really

[full panther]

i see. Describing what the chart tries to do, its this:
Let i denote each item in the total chart, and we let t_i denote the time the item takes in some sequence, and we want to sequence the chart to minimize sum(t_i). With that being said, i dont think its sensible to include infernal and quiver as considerations here, because they're skill-gated. A more accurate estimate for when to get them assuming you're capable to literally just go get them almost whenever, they are prob significantly earlier? I think for the average player this just causes confusion

[hollow cobalt]

Wouldn't be following this guide if you were good etc

[full panther]

so this is a bit of inconsistency but its not a major complaint point so seems people dont care

[fossil flame]

honestly even doing cg with no game experince with low stats alone is pretty rough

[hollow cobalt]

If you have the mental to grind out 90+ RC and 98 agi then surely learning cg ain't so bad lol

[fossil flame]

ye can also just do t2 armor as well have options

[somber dagger]

Gem crab boss incoming :9

[fossil flame]

gem crab doesint drop bowfa

[full panther]

i just afked nmz at uni pre-bowfa grind so my melee stats were always inflated af

[craggy granite]

Honestly there’s a lot of the guide and gear that lead into one another that aren’t intuitive coming from having played a main till now

So following the guide in broad strokes is helpful

[full panther]

i think the faq for the chart is very lacking at the moment, and im looking to rectify that

i have seen some good questions to answer proposed

[craggy granite]

Is nechraeyal an extended task or not?

[hybrid blaze]

yes, extend it

[craggy granite]

Putting the nechs extend in the unlock before TDs

Might make that clear

[full panther]

i think putting slayer extensions in the chart can be argued as scope creep possibly

[craggy granite]

That it’s ideally after 80 and that’s a milestone

[full panther]

it already arguably overstays its welcome in advising certain non-pvm items in the sequencing

because they tangibly benefit slayer

[craggy granite]

Greater challenge was already there

[full panther]

true

It's and outlier in that it speeds up the hasta grind significantly

real-time makes it accessible sooner on avg

[hollow cobalt]

Don't think the rest should be included

[full panther]

even for that one i could leave it out as implied by the chart. many things already are. its an inconsistency for sure lol

[craggy granite]

Kk

[hollow cobalt]

Why is bandos hilt so early when it doesn't really have any uses at any of the following steps until toa?

[full panther]

good question

The rationale is that the grind doesn't have opportunities to speed up meaningfully beyond this before it gets used. It still seems like a bit of an inconsistency to propose you get the item before you need it even still.

a reasonable fix seems to be just removing the bandos hilt

It did serve another subtle purpose iirc, which is to communicate if shards are still required, to get them from k'ril rather than graardor. that is if i remember correctly that k'ril was higher kph or nah

[inland cosmos]

I think having the hasta in the same block already communicated that well enough, but idk.

[slate dome]

Put FAQ list in this channel (ideally edit it into of of your first messages) and pin it

So people can reference em in the pins and suggest new ones easier

[full panther]

i dont have the power to pin stuff

[slate dome]

Mods will do that np

[full panther]

yeye

[slate dome]

Just easier than having to open chart and go to FAQ to see if the suggestion already exists

[full panther]

ok give me a sec to reformat in markdown

FAQ

1. Why is slayer so late?
Slayer benefits from postponing, gaining potent unlocks before starting, such as barrage, prayer pots, stronger gear, etc.

2. Why is this order of zenytes recommended?
Melee is used more often than range is for slayer, so takes precedence over anguish. Tormented bracelet does not benefit the account for a while, and ring of suffering is broadly unimportant.

3. Why are infernal cape and quiver considered such end-game upgrades?
Their sequencing rationale reflects how far the items can be reasonably postponed before learning the content is recommended. The sequence likely isn’t optimal here—players confident they can get them sooner probably will.

4. Why is 98 Agility being recommended?
Loot and passive XP from sepulchre are very strong early in the account, yielding about 45 k law/blood/soul runes, 7 k cosmic and natures, 8 k deaths, 336 ranarr seeds, 72 strange lockpicks, 550 k Thieving xp, 3.2m Magic xp (multiskilled with alchs), and 44 k Construction xp.

5. Where is purging staff?
Scorching bow and Purging staff share a synapse—make whichever one is needed at any given time.

6. Where are the Moons of Peril uniques?
They’re omitted because more optimal alternatives are available: Bloodbark set is quicker to obtain than the blue moon set, strength legs aren’t impactful enough to include, and Dual macuahuitl’s crush niche is covered by Zamorakian hasta.

7. Why is Barrows omitted?
A set is required for achievement diary cape; beyond this, all items (except the Dharok’s set for Grandmaster CAs) are nearly obsolete.

8. Why is fire cape so late?
Assuming you want Bowfa as well as fire cape, doing them in this order minimizes total time spent. The time loss is only an hour or so, so feel free to deviate if you prefer.

tbf could use some rewrites

[fossil flame]

i personally have questions on early toa rush im still not a big believer doing toa with scuffed gear/stats for lb/fang

[somber dagger]

i wonder with td taking up so many charges and melee xp, its wroth barrage nechryls now?

[fossil flame]

wouldint u have to do like 150 expert toas to even hit rate? or more then that

[hollow cobalt]

like ~120 deathless 300 solos on average for both

if you can do 400s it cuts it in half

[full panther]

previously only the fang was at that step. i forget the rationale for moving lb there too

[fossil flame]

400s with warped sceptre and 80 strength

[inland cosmos]

86

[hollow cobalt]

chally go brrrt etc

who knows what your str level will be

depends on your tds rng

[full panther]

honestly i think the 86 in the chart may be a result of some math error

[fossil flame]

i can understand lb actually for slayer

[full panther]

there is no way 86 is achieved by chally spec while chinning to 92 lol, i forget how 86 originally appeared

[inland cosmos]

it is if you start at 85 strenght

[full panther]

lol

[inland cosmos]

(I am not joking)

[full panther]

ah

[hollow cobalt]

between tds, dgs, yama and titans surely that's a fair bit of xp

[full panther]

note that unpublished draft atm is

• remove bandos hilt

[hollow cobalt]

oh that's indeed a very early fang

[fossil flame]

tbh i forgot about vw as well

[full panther]

dg + titans remain so the point stands tbf

[fossil flame]

thats alot of xp for melees

[inland cosmos]

looks good, I do think you could move rite to da4 block tho.

[full panther]

one metric that is practically available is "expected dmg to deal" for certain items

can gauge how much xp that results in quite directly from that

[slate dome]

Why prayers after vw rather than before?

Tiny range boost at artio ig

Probably increases kph more than vw for titans does

[full panther]

those prayers are a headache and a half, they're challenging to deal with lol

[slate dome]

Ye

[inland cosmos]

thats fair lol

[slate dome]

How many times you moved em so far lol

[full panther]

just once

but even placing them anywhere was a struggle

[hollow cobalt]

Minor re-ordering to save 23 seconds is always a bit of a meme

[full panther]

conservative bet based on having em pre bulk of slayer, but post benefitting from items for royal titans

[inland cosmos]

you could in theory place it at the same block as vw, but I dont think it matters

especially if you are going to move them in the future

[full panther]

one thing i've made a mental note of just now is questioning the inclusion of tentacle whip, when options like nally may be more alluring for the same niche

[slate dome]

Most people still probably want tent

Unless your recommendation is everyone manual paths at tob etc

Seems aids

But never done so im purely speculating

[hollow cobalt]

tent is probably gonna be at least a "want" for 95% of people doing tob

[full panther]

alright, then it stays

[hollow cobalt]

if not a "need"

[slate dome]

Is nally even on list

[full panther]

not atm

it's been requested, and suggested to just be slotted in next to rancour

[slate dome]

What about toenails

Going to include them? Or too much of a stretch goal

[full panther]

[[toenails]]

[last echo]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Tonalztics_of_ralos

[slate dome]

Yeah im not typing that

Toenails

[fossil flame]

toenails seems pretty bad imo like inq lvl items

[full panther]

too niche, along with zgs, soulflame horn, inquisitor, etc

[fossil flame]

idk anywhere ud really want that item

[slate dome]

Corp

Scaled cox

[hollow cobalt]

Tob

[fossil flame]

corp uniques

[hollow cobalt]

But definitely not needed for anything

[slate dome]

Its such a cool item tbf

[fossil flame]

im sure the other thing is u can avoid doing those roles and stuff as well to bypass it entirely

[hollow cobalt]

Although all of that shit is more useful than SRA tbh

And that's on there

[full panther]

yea um

i may have gotten a little eager post dt2

[fossil flame]

btw i didint mean to inquire like that i love both guides and agree with like 90% of it

just still not sold on early toa thing but my personal belief

[full panther]

prodding and prying is good

[hollow cobalt]

Is there really a rush before 80?

[slate dome]

Logic is pretty much that its doable with the gear you have and it increases superior rates for when you do most of your slaying

Definitely not required though

[hollow cobalt]

Yeah but early superiors don't matter

[slate dome]

Looking at chart its just before whip/boots etc

So it looks like its suggesting it at 80, not pre 80

[dim orbit]

wait whats the melee wep pre fang for titans

[slate dome]

But im not actually sure

[slate dome]

Hasta

[full panther]

oh @hollow cobalt do you mind pinning that FAQ msg to the channel?

[full panther]

thanks

[vagrant lodge]

should these be frem 3 instead with how early these are slotted before slayer (83 req)? could also just move frem 4 under the dragon boots if frem 3 isn't particularly significant here.

ik that's minor was just curious

[dusky fog]

Rip my beloved Bandos

[hollow cobalt]

Not like any of the diaries really matter other than lumb, zeah and karamja

[quiet schooner]

Yeah I think we should have realized pretty early on that committing to TDs before zammy even was ridiculous because of how long they take and how u likely won't be able to upkeep shards

[inland cosmos]

da4 good, but otherwise I agree with you

[karmic fossil]

is it really worth delaying oathplate/ultor so much? would u not want them pre cox?

[full panther]

hold on, trying do work on the math for this lol

12.9s saved per olm if ultor + oathplate. figuring out how many kc expected to have both prayers to quanity how much time it'd hypothetically save for cox

[slate dome]

oath before prayers seems reasonable

[full panther]

could be, infernal is big for Yama though

[inland cosmos]

could you not just put infernal and yama before cox then?

[full panther]

is anyone familiar with how to compute the expected amount of purples seen before dex + arcane is unlocked

[full panther]

thats an option for sure

that violates a bit the thought behind current infernal and quiver placements tho

[inland cosmos]

how big of an upgrade is dex and arcane for inferno?

[inland cosmos]

understandable for sure

[indigo hollow]

I’d put them in the “nice to have” category but they’re definitely not necessary

[full panther]

@hybrid blaze Do you happen to know the expected amount of purples before an account possesses at least one of each for dexterous and arcane prayer scrolls?

its melting my brain a bit trying to figure this out atm

[hybrid blaze]

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=int_0^infty+[+1+-+(1-exp(-x%2F3.45))^2]dx

[full panther]

thanks, and also wtf

[hybrid blaze]

In this case there's an easier approach: it's 1.5x the rate for getting a single one because they're identical, and a single one is 3.45

[fossil flame]

idt anything from cox rrly helps at yama

[hybrid blaze]

so its 1.5 * 3.45 = 5.175

but the integral generalises

[fossil flame]

oh i see

ur saying get rigour b4 inferno that makes sense

forgot about that

[inland cosmos]

the question then is if having rigour + arcane for inferno is better than having oathplate for cox

which is a really subjective question imo

[fossil flame]

imo inferno isint really about saving time but making it more acessible

[inland cosmos]

right

[full panther]

ok so assuming 12.9s saved at olm (4.3s per melee hand, 3 hands) for 149 solos (expected kc for dex+arcane) amounts to half an hour timesave

half an hour saved at cox, vs. either no prayers for inferno or firecape yama which is probably worse lol

im comfortable keeping things as is personally

[inland cosmos]

hmm, I kind of want to see the calc for firecape yama now lmao

but how it is now seems fine haha

[fossil flame]

i think with deadeye its not unreasonable to attempt inferno pre rig but i wouldint blame someone for waiting

[full panther]

the chart holds the line on "delaying" fire cape, so it could be seen as inconsistent to do the same with inferno, but then pandora's box is maybe opened a bit

[inland cosmos]

I think its fine to have it as it is and just keep the faq why they are delayed

[low stag]

Since we’re on the math talks, how does duo drop rates for Yama work? Assuming 50/50 contribution you’d expect the wiki drop rates to be doubled right?

[indigo hollow]

Inferno’s tough because an experienced caper can do it pretty damn early, but a first caper is probably going to want more upgrades

[karmic fossil]

So if you were willing to do infernal pre rigour - I’d do it after occult probably? and then immediately go Yama into vard then back to slayer ?

[slate dome]

Why wait for occult

Just do immediately after cg?

[full panther]

seems valid

[slate dome]

If you're actually rushing it

[fossil flame]

occult isint that important anymore esp with changes

torm camping 95% as good

[full panther]

to some extent the rigour just becomes psychological bandaid

[fossil flame]

or switch

[inland cosmos]

would you not at least want ancient icon + blood bark?

I have not done inferno, so my input is probably bad

[indigo hollow]

100%, for first capers it’s more of a panic switch thing anyway for situations where you don’t have a wave solved and need to dps down a meleer or something

[fossil flame]

that stuff is already pretty much well before rigour/inferno in guide

[inland cosmos]

right, talking more in line of "directly after cg"

[full panther]

does the integral have any kind of name i can look it up by to read more?

[fossil flame]

just my take but bowfa>>>>icebarrage>>>bp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rigour>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything else

[full panther]

i've heard of the coupon collector problem, that one seemed applicable for the oathplate armor

[inland cosmos]

I guess that is fair

that does put it directly before or after cox on the chart tho haha

if you want bp that is

[hybrid blaze]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-applied-probability/article/generalised-coupon-collector-problem/4D5F06A32A7C98F87277BC33E49CE5AE

its called the Coupon Collector Problem

the integral has the advantage of extending to multiple drops with different droprates

I dont have a formula for if we want multiple of the same item and then others as well though, like armour seeds at cg

[full panther]

this is some disgusting amount of math hahah, oh man

fucking hell

[hybrid blaze]

yeah this was a big open question until recently

well, big in this community

para did a literature search and found a paper after making personal attempts

and then later other community members rediscovered the paper

and the formula spread among osrs players from there

previously we also used monte carlo simulations but there's no need for this specific question anymore

[full panther]

whew

[hybrid blaze]

yeah its quite a lot

[full panther]

the integral you showed me in wolfram alpha was this bit?

[hybrid blaze]

yes

[full panther]

ok

i understand how to apply it now on my own i think

[hybrid blaze]

nice

[full panther]

thats all i need for now. good god this stuff is brutal

[inland cosmos]

it is nice to see an actual formula instead of my own approach of brute forcing it by simulating it thousands of times with a python script

[karmic fossil]

Oh I’m just personally 91 slayer already - not thinking about a theoretical fresh acct

[quiet schooner]

I don't get it what is the rationale for oathplate at cox

U are not slashing anything

[fossil flame]

slash lance

is actually good

[quiet schooner]

I see

[full panther]

ye slash lance beats stab lance in oathplate lol

[quiet schooner]

Very cringe

[full panther]

and the neit faceguard is gg now

so u get extra str

[fossil flame]

i think its like inq crush lance basically

execpt u dont have to get inq

[quiet schooner]

Not sure if ur getting the new prayers maybe u just delay cox until shadow anyways

Dex could take a long time tbh

[midnight dome]

I've done toa early like that. It's definitely a step up in difficulty if you go for like 340s compared to like cg or something but it's really not that bad

[midnight dome]

Maybe? Idk you range a lot of hp going for shadow and it might help hit time invos

[hasty berry]

I don’t even think it’s harder, there’s just a different skill set of “consistent play for 30-40 minutes” vs something like cg that’s much higher apm for 4 minutes

[midnight dome]

I don't think I agree with that, toa feels higher apm

[midnight dome]

So from doing some rough math at 400 invo you're looking at about 45s timesave/raid which comes out to ~3.5 hours for shadow rate with no deaths. You might honestly be correct

Infernal cape is a difficult factor to account for in this though since rigour might be what keeps people from sending it

[sonic elm]

So, if we're looking to delay TDs until after toa, does this mean we want vw even more before getting into toa? Due to lack of bclaws.

[midnight dome]

Well it's already slotted in before toa but you could probably just do bgs+dds for the fang/lb grind

[karmic fossil]

VW is great at toa and you have what you need to go grind it out at that point. I was definitely happy to have it for pre fang 350s

[woven rose]

I understand lumb is important for the block slot, why are zeah and karamja important? Noob here

Asking because I'm quite behind on my diaries according to the progression chart

I see

I'm also behind on CAs, for some reason they don't seem important to me

[woven nova]

elite is important for slayer superior

[fossil flame]

i dont even mean it in terms of skill just find it a massive detour dedicating many grinds early (bandos/zenytes) on top of doing 120toas its alot of time even if lb/fang are good for slayer

and imo there is value delaying it cuz ud have better gear/sats

[hollow cobalt]

Basically has 0 effect until you get to the good heart superiors at 85/92

[woven nova]

yeah

[opal dagger]

Silly question, but if you spoon heart is it worth bothering for elite cas for just the xp?

[quiet schooner]

Elite cas are passive so yes

I think just doing most of the early bosses along the way should get most of the points u need

[craggy granite]

More superiors means faster slayer and more ancient shards too if you don’t have Emberlight yet

Obv not necessary because nothing is necessary, but like it seems worth it

[midnight dome]

Sure but it assumes you'll wanna do it eventually and the timesave from having better gear is small at this stage vs timesave of having these items for slayer

The biggest upgrade for toa at that point is fang itself anyways

[fossil flame]

ye i do agree with ur arguement

ig i just couldint be asked comitting to so many things instead of pushing slayer without lb/fang

cuz in my head i felt like i had to get bgs/hasta/bclaws or vw just to set myself up

but ye what i just said now doesint really have merit on practical reasons for anti early toa

[dusky fog]

oooo TD items and torm moved to after elite now 😮

interesting

@full panther If you had to guess, where would you put noxious hally in this progression chart?

oh i guess you could possibly have it by time you get fang

[crystal narwhal]

Fang is pretty early to use it during the big slayer grind.

Nhally would probably be in the same location as rancor, not unlikely to get it during rancour grind anyways

[west nexus]

they meant the fang used to craft rancour

i would assume atleast

[crystal narwhal]

Ohhh, that makes sense lmao. I thought it was a strange question

[dusky fog]

Yes lol

Not worth staying for though?

[crystal narwhal]

Efficiency wise probably not. But it’s a cute item, nice for some CAs, feels good at vard, I use it at TOB (SRA, Nhally, Maul, all 2h weapons)

[dusky fog]

how many kills/hr is araxxor?

[frozen olive]

Probably 30+ at the gear recommended

[mossy mantle]

With titans moved a bit earlier is the recommended setup tent whip + bowfa?

[hearty granite]

why is the dark altar recommended to be built first?

[slate dome]

Bc its the most used spellbook at that stage of account

And can get onto ancients fairly quick with sceptre

[fallen raptor]

@full panther the version number is outdated on the website and says 1.2 while the changelog has different numbers

[full panther]

Thanks, will fix. Forgot i say version on the main one lol

[full panther]

fixed

[inland cosmos]

I have a question regarding the diary block after pharaoh sceptre. Is it really correct to get 83 (or 78 with boost) slayer for the Fremennik Diary at that point in the account?

[glossy niche]

That's for your second sceptre I think. Also if you trained slayer to 100 combat you're close to or at least 75 so it's not that much of a jump.

[sonic elm]

I'm in that same area of finishing bandos, doing those elites and prepping for toa. About to hit 84 slayer. But I also default to slayer when I need a break from trying for hilt 😂

[ancient kestrel]

Is there a link where the interactive gear guide is hosted? The link on github always 404s for me.

[hybrid blaze]

the github link works just fine but there's also https://www.ladlorchart.com/index.html

[quiet chasm]

With BP after 93 slayer grind, is this assuming a bofa mage setup is used? Curious on say it couldn’t be done anytime after bofa

[somber dagger]

Yes

Occult

[hybrid blaze]

you can do it earlier, a trident swap isnt actually worth it

[somber dagger]

What you think about the elementals changes and melee?

[hybrid blaze]

big nothingburger

nice thematic update, doesnt change metas

[somber dagger]

True

Twinstaff seems good, but twinstaff kinda useluss outside some few niche bosses

[proven swallow]

Would dragonhunter wand not be a lot more valuable to have now?

[quiet schooner]

no because u want a lance for huey and u can just lance everything instead

[inner forge]

The wand also has 10% magic dmg and will be able to autocast ancients

[somber dagger]

yee, but what weapon are you killing huey with?

and still a 10 hour grind

with alright gear

[inner forge]

Not saying its good to get. Was just clarifying to chester why someone would want it.

[wide sentinel]

So now that Zenytes are done before tormented demons, should i still extend GD? Or should that be black demons now

[frozen olive]

if you're done with black demons you should block them

greaters are worth extending until synapses/hasta imo

[quiet schooner]

did we always extend greaters

i thought they were not extended before tds

hasta is like 1 or 2 tasks

unextended

[frozen olive]

we didn't no, just with synapses being so good and claws being a good spec along with needing to grab hasta I think it's recommended now

[drowsy ore]

Doesn’t extended greaters make hasta way earlier?

[hollow cobalt]

Not really

[frozen olive]

still closer to 2 tasks on avg

[sonic elm]

Even with rate from Kril being like 1/128?

Guess it makes sense with one of the minions being a greater, so you get 2 on task kills per actual kc

[full panther]

the thought was extended tasks would benefit k'ril grind. if thats really not the case then anticipate it getting postponed similarily like tds is

[somber dagger]

what about lance into huey into cox?

i guess 10 hours boss isnt saving time that you gain

and also no thralls

[hybrid blaze]

There's no time gain? The dhw is just worse, no?

[opal dagger]

It’s a 10% dmg wand that can auto cast ancients for slayer I guess

[slate dome]

It can't autocast ancients though can it?

Thought its just normals

[hybrid blaze]

the summer blog proposes adding autocast ancients to it

[slate dome]

Oooo

Nice ty

[quiet schooner]

10% wand for slayer after 97 slayer seems very pepega

ngl

when ancient sceptre already exists

[tall lark]

i know everyone hates reddit here, but correct me if im wrong but isnt one of the main reasons for the bruhsailer early toa grind to get fang for dragon tasks? and from what i see in the current chart routing that in uses suboptimal stuff like warped sceptre. obviously theres other uses for fang but its still out of your way, there are downsides to farming toa that early.

10% dmg magic from an easy and early boss that can take care of magic slayer + can dumpster shitter tasks + getting huasca seeds + CA at the same time sounds good to me. with proposed rates is it even that much longer grind than muspah? why everyone writing it off already?

[somber dagger]

you dont really use much mage at toa untill shadow, as reddit kinda thinks that every mage upgrade at toa is huuuge, but mage is just thrash at almost all stages untill shadow

only at p2 warden, and some few times on akkha right

even if you hvae trident, it doesnt really change toa at all

and fang helps more on dragons and bosses then other stuff help at toa

[vague tusk]

a lot of the value of doing dragon tasks is melee xp, which you don't get if you're casting spells using a dhw

[somber dagger]

true

[indigo hollow]

Hard to say too much until we know the full extent of the ToA drop rate changes

Magic will become even less important and the raid will get faster after the proposed changes to the raid mechanics, but on the other hand, if fang takes twice as long to grind or more, then I'm not sure how the math works out

[fossil flame]

has anyone looked at dhw wand for vorkath?

like one of few places u cant use thralls/veng/reccomended in early progression

[somber dagger]

he does get elemental weakness

so if you hvae a decent gear setup, i would say its very good

but then again, its only max 50 kills

[indigo hollow]

yeah it's bad

vorkath has high magic def

to put it in perspective, absolute max mage + saturated heart + dhw + tome of water + water surge + augury still loses to a basic 92 ranged bowfa/eagle eye setup

[hybrid blaze]

Akkha might be out now too that there's bowfa butterfly (soon)

[hybrid blaze]

The 10% dmg autocast ancients might be a legitimate use case and pickup. We will have to see how it works out.
As it stands I don't know of uses for the actual dragonbane part of the weapon.

[midnight dome]

I think you are correct, an extra 5% mage damage might be worth picking up, but the question is how fast can you realistically get it early-ish

considering there isn't really any better autocast staff until kodai/nightmare staff which take a while. There is also the option of going for manual cast with purg staff or even staff of the dead though

[quiet schooner]

Are we just banking on hastaing Huey?

[midnight dome]

thats the question yes

[quiet schooner]

Idr what the new drop rate is being adjusted to 1/72?

So like probably around the ballpark of 5-7 hours

[midnight dome]

I think it's more if you want to make use of it for slayer

[quiet schooner]

Yeah I guess it's like

That instead of ancient sceptre

[midnight dome]

ye I guess ancient sceptre kind of is a detour too

[quiet schooner]

In which case ancient sceptre is like a couple hours

[midnight dome]

like 2.5

[quiet schooner]

Maybe it is worth it who knows

But I think u still wouldn't use it for dragon tasks

U lose out on hella melee xp

[midnight dome]

tbh it sounds pretty reasonable if you want to grind cox as well

10% staff for 3+12s/2+13s

[quiet schooner]

How does it compare at olm idr if they said there are any changes to olms elemental weakness

But the method would be kind of cringe

[midnight dome]

its pretty bad at olm iirc

[quiet schooner]

U would have to do like mega back row 2:0 shit

Or something like that

[midnight dome]

it would work for team raids which are the best points/hr

but honestly probably just get shadow before grinding cox for real

[quiet schooner]

Yeah honestly

[slate dome]

Surely 1/72 is closer to like 10-12 hours rather than 5-7

And thats soloing in semi decent gear

If its actually giga early, youd be like 4-5 kph I would've thought

[craggy granite]

Going to send muspah KC later on too, so why not get started then?

[slate dome]

Been a while since I was at huey, but I think I was nearing 8 mins solo in bandos dhl bloodmoon+mace for tail

[indigo hollow]

The DPS isn’t actually that bad at olm with earth surge, but you lose thralls for the entire raid

[somber dagger]

gain some damgae on ice demon, but idk how big impact that is overall as its like 1/4 of raids

[quiet schooner]

O ur right I was thinking like a 4-5 min trio then forgot to multiply by 3

[midnight dome]

Ye just cant earth surge for scaled raids

I guess you could bring cape

[vague tusk]

if you were planning to do the DHW route you'd probably grab blood moon early - you eventually grab it for tob/clogs anyway, may as well have it for huey. would be negative on time up to getting the wand but positive in the long run. would also increase the chance of a bloodbark skip if that helps you stomach the idea

[quiet schooner]

clog 💀

i would just get temotlis for huey and tob if i were gonna do that

[fickle drum]

blood moon early is also just dumb now that oathplate makes that boss completely free if you just wait enough

waiting is just always gonna be better

[slate dome]

He should just write his own

Guide by nooba for nooba

[quiet schooner]

What's a good progression chart? No not that one the one that I like

[next crow]

literally what I was thinking when browsing comments lmao

[fossil flame]

ye i see thats terrible lol nvm then

[fickle drum]

zulrah delay until 93 slayer is the most braindead obvious move in the game

idk how someone wouldn't do that

[sudden venture]

Who’s doing mage zulrah? Bowfa zulrah is so brain dead easy for irons why even add a switch

[slate dome]

Some people like doing things faster/more kph rather than lazy methods

[sudden venture]

Yeah fair point. I did 1400 for my magic fang and no way I’m swapping that much. Had to turn the brain off

[somber dagger]

Whos doing zulrah in 2025

[quiet schooner]

U can also do fc with 92 range and an msb really easily too

It's not that slow with that high range level

[crystal narwhal]

I did 1800 for bp and no chance I’d do bofa hand on dick for that long. I did sbs veng thralls trying to go fast was fun and got a respectable pb

[sudden venture]

Oh no yeah I did the same !! Just no way I’m doing a mage switch

[lunar lodge]

Melee switch at zulrah is sick now and very low effort. Weapon + torture amulet alone can be enough to decrease average kill times by 15 seconds now.

[fickle drum]

why not do a mage switch when u have so much downtime

[crystal narwhal]

If you want to do 1 style melee only is bis now I think, I was never a fan of bofa only

[slate dome]

saving lifespan of their mouse 🤓

[fickle drum]

thought melee only was just pb tech

[slate dome]

Yeah I'd probably stick to bofa only with chally specs or something rather than melee camp

[crystal narwhal]

That’s probably very good. Chally on down is really good

[sudden venture]

I mean I’ve completed zulrah now melee switch wasn’t an option at the time but it looks dope

[crystal narwhal]

You never complete Zulrah

[sudden venture]

Yeah I’m desperate for magma mutagen tbh

[full panther]

Are y'all positive, neutral, or negative on the inclusion of slayer unlocks such as extensions, broader fletching, and task unlocks?

(On the backend for trying to extend this thing, they are a bit of a pain in the ass. For that reason alone i am tempted to remove them)

But also blocks are more important generally speaking, and are omitted. Same with many extensions.

One pattern is that the extensions and unlocks are pvm focused, with the exception of broader fletching

[opal dagger]

blocks change a lot so its understandable that they are omitted. Unlocking broads and extending tasks is good for emphasizing what stage of progression you're at so that makes sense to me.

[mellow matrix]

i think extensions and task unlocks make sense. i'm unsure the criteria yall use to decide to include non combat things (things that are pretty much not connected to combat at all)- there are like 4-5 really not combat related items on there right now but 95% of the chart is pvm/pvm adjacent

[drowsy ore]

Like you could replace mixology goggles and amulet with goading pots, since goading is a straight pvm upgrade

[full panther]

i saw you were sussed out by the 98 agility. Its there somewhat because ring of endurance was in its place prior, and instead of removing it, it was just converted into what it symbolizes instead, which is a long grind at sep that sets up slayer. Remains consistently confusing, but also stimulates a lot of discussion that educates lol

its one that pains me a bit because its thematically inconsistent, but seemingly does a good job

[full panther]

i've been contemplating these items s7efen are referring to a bit.

The chart is dominantly pvm or pvm-adjacent, though also with unlocks that empower slayer in some way. In rough order of importance:

1. Lumby ring 4 enables some alchs during barrage, but more importantly extra block slot.
2. Wrath runes enables full extraction of prayer from slayer.
3. Varrock armor + glory support gem mining for bracelets.
4. sceptre speeds up spellbook swapping between ancients and arceeus
5. karamja 4 speeds up task aquisition
6. frem boots benefits vorkath
7. herb sack, gem bag enable resource gathering during slayer
8. log basket, plank sack, ardy cape, and kandarin headgear doesn't do much very directly.

there remains other things that tangibly benefit slayer too, but it becomes a bit indirectly

[mellow matrix]

i think log basket and plank sack at least tie into the con unlocks. but yeah, kandarin, ardy... moreso if you were going to include those- like why no fishing tile (barb), no actual herb milestones(av+, scb/divine scb), maybe hard contract unlocks

[full panther]

i was thinking the raiments of the eye set as an example

yea its a bit non-exhaustive

im indecisive of if expanding or pruning is the best

[mellow matrix]

i think general pvm progression can exist independent of maxing. like if you were to step outside this discord very few people are going to play their acc with maxing in mind

eg the agility or barb fishing is entirely not a consideration

[hollow cobalt]

Does varrock armor work on gems or not, the wiki is... unclear lol

[mellow matrix]

uh i didnt think it did

[full panther]

😮

[hollow cobalt]

https://i.imgur.com/KGVZms1.png

[full panther]

ah

ok well that makes varrock armor in the camp of not tangibly benefitting slayer then too

[hollow cobalt]

Kandarin, frem, varrock and ardy diaries don't do much really

[full panther]

frem for vorkath seems ok

is the house not that much worse maybe?

[mellow matrix]

the alternative is getting booted off lunar isle

[full panther]

oh right

[mellow matrix]

which iirc is or was closer than boots

idr if they changed boots

[full panther]

their tp location never was

making a mental note of all of this as of now. Atm im positive for removing diary superfluous diary items at the very least

[opal dagger]

its slower than boots but lets you get an extra inv spot. Thats why they added the orb in the bank for people with fremmy elite.

[full panther]

lol:

10% increase to the activation chance for the special effect from enchanted bolts (even in PvP). This bonus stacks additively[1] with other bonuses like the Armadyl crossbow's special attack.

might've found the way kandarin headgear was tangibly related to pvm

not relevant until zcb though

[hybrid blaze]

Don't remove the 98 agil from the chart, it's the last dangling piece of rope they have on reddit! If you change that they might have to read or evaluate their views

[opal dagger]

98 agi is a cue for people to turn their brains off unless you're in the know. Especially in a gear progression sheet.

[sonic elm]

I thought it seemed ridiculous too, until I actually sat down and did it, then looked at my loot log.

[full panther]

would replacing the wrath rune with demonic offering and(?) sinister offering possibly alleviate some confusion at first glance?

not items, and clearly wrath runes are their common denominator lol, but leaves it fully un-ambiguous what they're for

[opal dagger]

That's reasonable. A lot of people don't use the offering spells so they might not even know what those are.

[quiet schooner]

U can just make the bare bones the default tbh

And add a big disclaimer at the top that the full one is "better"

But then the idiots won't cry about my 98 agility

[full panther]

the bare bones fell out of sync. i've let it rot a bit :S

its too much work to maintain imo, i think i will discontinue it

[shy narwhal]

What if when you hover over an item it shows a tooltip for the rationale why you place that item there

[dusky fog]

someone already suggested. Some else give a rationale for why they didnt like the idea. I dont remember exactly why.

[drowsy ore]

I do like the early barrows with wind surge + sepulchre lock picks though.
The people yearn for barrows and at least you can show that it’s not bad to do it with air surge and lock picks

[fossil flame]

i thought wrath rune made alot of sense

but i get how it can be confusing

[somber dagger]

Barrow gear is pretty meme, mostly only good for moons, and moons gear is eeh

[drowsy ore]

Barrows gear is needed for mory elite, and getting ahrims on the way saves time on bloodbark

1 barrows set is already on the gear prog

[somber dagger]

Ye, but thats later, when you got a poh, gear to do efficient barrows

[drowsy ore]

The gear to do efficient barrows is wind surge and lockpick. The rest is negligible

[woven nova]

You’ll put it on and people will ask

why is it so late???

you can’t please everyone

stick to one goal, whether that be max efficiency or whatever else u choose

people will always find reasons for themselves to disagree

[fossil flame]

do u know the odds by chance of getting a piece of ahirms otw to mory elite?

[woven nova]

Probably above 50%

[fossil flame]

thats pgood

[woven nova]

not doing the math

[fossil flame]

ye mostly was just looking for rough idea

[woven nova]

if u remove the staff prob less

[somber dagger]

as long as you dont hit karil, guathns or dharok gear, or any waepons, its decent minibosses

[drowsy ore]

63% chance you get ahrims top or bottom

[sonic elm]

I think the problem comes with the fact you have a chance to get those ahrims pieces, and a gear progression guide focused on efficiency won't include that. If you get lucky and ahrims is the set you complete for mory elite, then cool. Otherwise, it's not worth sticking around.

Whereas bloodbark is get the scroll one time, and done.

[sonic elm]

With the toa changes not effecting fang/lb drops at 300 and lower invo, I assume there's no change in when we should grind those?

[hybrid blaze]

itll almost certainly stay at the same place. Also with all the ways they're making the raid easier there is no way you stick at sub 300

its funny that they said they are worried about fang being so common and then make things easier. The jagex special

[midnight dome]

I'm waiting for the reddit outcry of (on paper) nerfing high invo toa resulting in them walking it back

Although I don't really understand why they leave low invo untouched when 40% of purples come from there

[hybrid blaze]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-meme-movie-james-cameron-western-gif-17538858

[vague tusk]

How slow do you reckon early fang would have to be for it to be meta to delay it until after slayer/cox prayers/capes? I've been pretty skeptical of needing to do it early as is, but I'm wondering if the prevalent thought is it's on the verge of being bad or like bowfa and you'd do it at the same time if it was 10 times as rare

[indigo hollow]

Bold to assume reddit does high invo raids

Or that they don’t define high invo as higher than 300

[vague tusk]

if they added another column for players who do the raid at each level you'd probably find the players clustered even lower than the clears - I think Jagex's concern is if those many players with low clear counts at low invos have their time downgraded they'd quit the game, whereas few players with many clears at high invo are probably more invested in the game and can tank a big drop rate hit, so it's better to hit them if you have to hit someone for the health of the economy

[indigo hollow]

I doubt it will be significantly slower, if at all. Rates aren’t nerfed below 300 and the nerfs aren’t that crazy between 300-350. The raids will also be faster—bowfa butterfly alone is a huge buff given that early fang runs are currently using garbage mage setups. And the new gem they’re adding will also help speed up the raids pre-fang.

[dusky fog]

Akkah should be faster with bowfa butterfly. Kephri should be faster with new jewel. Baba will be unchanged for most part? Faster if you were using 6-0 red-x, not if you used 5-0 which isn’t needed at pre fang invo levels anyways.

[hybrid blaze]

Baba will change the most - overheads now block all damage, so you can push gear and raid level more instead of having to reserve for chip damage

the new partisan jewel is also intended to be stronger than hasta, so melee baba is going to become more attractive pre fang

[dusky fog]

It’s currently 35 hour grind?

[indigo hollow]

I was also under the impression the new gem would not just be a Kephri thing

It would speed up baba as well if I’m understanding it correctly (that it would just become a worse fang inside the raid)

Or a better hasta, however you want to think of it

[midnight dome]

the gap between early vs late fang would have to be pretty big, I feel like fang for slayer saves dozens of hours (just vibes no calcs)

[hybrid blaze]

slayer is in a weird spot anyway with the anticipated overhaul

[dusky fog]

I was stating in comparison to the same invo level. But yes, absolutely true that you can and should push higher invo because of the changes

[hybrid blaze]

im expecting a 60% xp/hr buff, otherwise its not qol

[quiet schooner]

They aren't going through with this afaik

[midnight dome]

ye it might not be as big a deal anymore as it was when I did my early fang+slayer

[indigo hollow]

They are

Unless that changed since today’s blog

[robust hazel]

Is the slayer overhaul going to be in the summer sweep-up or is that later?

[quiet schooner]

They are?

Oh maybe what I was reading was different

[midnight dome]

just tds alone remove a lot of expected dragon tasks from the 99 slayer grind

[inland cosmos]

I feel like the partisan jewel will further push early fang even more than before even if they decide to nerf the drop rate of fang more.

[hybrid blaze]

today's blog kept the baba changes and only spoke about what news there is on top of the previous blog

[indigo hollow]

Yeah they said they’re leaving the changes untouched, not baba

[quiet schooner]

Oh

[fallen raptor]

They announced more info coming soon ™️

[quiet schooner]

Well that's r worded

[fallen raptor]

Regarding the slayer updates

[midnight dome]

in terms of baba they just defended themselves from people saying there is no value in 5:1 anymore, saying avoiding rock throws and baboons might be also worth

(which is insane considering they want to make those really easy too)

[indigo hollow]

I’m not sure Jagex is aware of 5:1

[hybrid blaze]

I thought 5:1 pre fang was bad anyway

doesnt it make your hasta 5t

[midnight dome]

ye they said redx

[indigo hollow]

There’s 3:1 or something for 4-tick I think

[midnight dome]

yeah you can still do a version but its less good

[dusky fog]

Their wording was very confusing

[robust hazel]

Confused me as well until they clarified in the comments

[quiet schooner]

5:1 is one of the few skill expressive moments in toa and they just removed it

Really taking the feedback that people liked emergent gameplay to heart

[dusky fog]

Inb4 Reynolds rant

[indigo hollow]

He already posted one lol

[dusky fog]

Rip

🤣

[midnight dome]

unfortunately it never got widespread use for some reason

I think people value brain off > 17% dps

[dusky fog]

Sometimes I wonder who jagex is referring to when they say they’ve “heard the community” and give these updates.

It never seems to align with any of the discussion I’m reading/listening to.

[midnight dome]

its mostly reddit and x (formerly twitter)

[hybrid blaze]

this discord is sincerely elite

the large majority of the players is way worse at the game than the people chatting here

[midnight dome]

most frequently completed toa is a solo normal mode btw

[opal dagger]

75% of toas done in solos

[midnight dome]

tbf I don't know that for sure, just assuming solos/teams are evenly distributed against rl

which is probably not a good assumptions I just realized

[opal dagger]

wouldnt teams be like 400s

[midnight dome]

no clue

[dusky fog]

Not if it’s a reddit team

[opal dagger]

true

how many farmer 150s are done

[midnight dome]

65% of raids are <350

which is what I would consider learner raids (unless pre fang irons)

[opal dagger]

yet 400+ is 40% of all purps

[karmic fossil]

my irl friend is afraid to solo 300s with fang, I just assume he’s representative of the average redditor

[dusky fog]

With fang?

Geez

[midnight dome]

often people just lack confidence/willingness to put in effort to improve

osrs is mostly a nostalgia click tree game after all

[somber dagger]

yep, back in teh day, you dint have to interact with the content to do content

[full panther]

A friend of mine throws a hissy fit if we dont red x for this reason

[midnight dome]

tbf in teams >duo its good

[full panther]

Less relative dps lost deffo

[midnight dome]

you lose more dps from running to boulders

atleast according to reynold

[full panther]

Ah

Cus cant drag baba

[midnight dome]

ye

[full panther]

Sime lose out on hits

Fair enuf

[midnight dome]

one person loses 17% dps, so in a trio its only ~5.6% dps loss

plus you get to not use any supplies so can use more specs/bring more switches

[quiet schooner]

i thought it was teams >4

might be old news

[midnight dome]

could be

[quiet schooner]

i think thats what reynolds said in his vid

[midnight dome]

I never did team raids really so no clue

and even if I do I let someone else redx

[quiet schooner]

wrt 5:1

[midnight dome]

I'm not gonna lower my personal points

[quiet schooner]

yeah i cbf red xing

[fossil flame]

ye this was hella based

[somber dagger]

the game is meant for mid level players

[mellow matrix]

you can 5:1 with rcb and its pretty good

at least if you are pushing like way above 300s. or just take the -60s and redx

i think the goal isnt inherently 'fang more rare' but rather 'fewer fangs in the game' per shadow. not having a 7:1 ratio (when ring and fang dont degrade) is just rly problematic. like look at the ratio for rapier : scythe, claws/maul/ances:bow etc

i suspect the avg player will have a WAY easier time pushing invo. you get a bazillion supplies if no supply reduction is on for warden and baba/akkha were the only real 'problems'

so what exactly is going to limit your raid level at that point?

[next crow]

guess Ladlor needs to change the chart up again, remove them chinchompers as they're inefficient

[somber dagger]

if you dont care about hutner xp

hes kinda correct no?

[hollow cobalt]

Or ranged xp

[next crow]

nah chins are efficient even if the hunter xp wasnt there

[mellow matrix]

you just need enough range xp to do t1 properly

[midnight dome]

he's forgetting about using bofa at 80 ranged

it's probably fine to go lower but I don't think its unreasonable to go higher than 80

[hybrid blaze]

para and I talked about milestone levels a long time ago. You'll always get post-99 ranging xp long term, there's no avoiding it. The main tradeoff is time spent catching/throwing chins versus a more difficult and slower time at cg and subsequent pvm

we felt that 92 ranged was suitable for most players, 95+ was pretty ricidulous, and people who wanted to go for 87 or 89 should try it but they might have a more difficult time at cg, graardor, kril etc

you can definitely go lower still if you want and are confident in your pvm skills

[somber dagger]

How much time do you lose?

by going to 92

[hybrid blaze]

compared to what?

staying at 70?

[somber dagger]

lets go with 87

i wouldnt do cg with 70

[hybrid blaze]

Uh im doing this by head but I think it's around 6 hours of catching chins and another 2 of throwing. In exchange you also get str and hp xp

but you'll be losing time on cg and all pre-99 ranged pvm, as your bowfa will be weaker. The cg learning curve will also be steeper

[somber dagger]

yep, the hunter xp is also nice

78 hunter atm and alredy 2,4k bird nest

[hybrid blaze]

One crazy route I think sounds funny but is probably bad is to chin to 80 exactly, do cg, get the bowfa, then afk nmz with elite void and bowfa

[midnight dome]

I think people nitpicking this rough progression like that will never be happy

for every person saying 80 ranged is all you need there will be someone saying you need max combat for cg wcyd

[somber dagger]

chins is more way more efficent then bowfa nmz?

[midnight dome]

see all the complaints about fire cape placement

[somber dagger]

i guess its afk

[hybrid blaze]

A lot of the criticism is people picking on things out of the norm. Better to mock than to look for the nuance. Fire cape is a good example - in BRUHsailer there's a step where it tells players that if they want an early fire cape, that's the moment to go for one

[midnight dome]

A chart like this can never account for these nuances, that's what a guide is for

[opal dagger]

People love nitpicking without considering nuance. Can’t imagine the people criticizing bruhsailer have read 10% of it

[hybrid blaze]

generally BRUHsailer has been received very well 😄

[opal dagger]

deservedly so, just people see the few large optional skilling grinds and just blue screen

[next crow]

Absolutely. I get people not understanding certain decisions right away as some of them really seem unintuitive. But to deem a part of efficient progression stupid, which has been calculated well and had other factors accounted for, and claim that their idea of progression is objectively better, will never not be funny to me

[mellow matrix]

i wouldnt even think youd need to afk at 80. just delay bandos. like tds, shamans and demonics, zulrah, artio should get you in range to where range is useful

the obvious issue is clearly just t1 being way harder at 80 range than 92/93

[midnight dome]

I'm a big fan of grabbing bgs and hasta right away and go toa for fang

But maybe after slayer changes it'll be bettter to wait

[mellow matrix]

bone and dwh at toa is pretty good tbh if bandos is rly the only blocker

esp if they fix kephri start

[midnight dome]

Yeah but you want bgs anyways at some point and it doesn't get much faster really

[opal dagger]

bofa has never been more important for toa now that you can butterfly ahka with it

[midnight dome]

You can probably just go with 80 range

[indigo hollow]

inb4 gnomonkey video with an atlatl butterfly method

[midnight dome]

Chinning is so fast that I feel like it's worth the time investment

[mellow matrix]

not having to mage akkha is so big tbh

esp for the pre trident stuff

probably do other warden at that point even

[midnight dome]

But it's definitely up to preference I think, I do agree that something like 89/92 range is a sweet spot for most people

[opal dagger]

probably will happen since the new mage wand will be 3t

[midnight dome]

If you care about postmax xp could make an argument to go straight for 99 even

[opal dagger]

saying you don't value postmax range xp so you want to do pvm with lower range lvl seems like a greif because you can accidentally hit 200m range without trying

[next crow]

personally I don't think that combat xp should even really be considered in that regard besides some specific grinds, you're obviously gonna get many many millions of xp post 99 through pvm

and getting higher levels early just makes further grinds faster, eg 92 range at cg, 90 or whatever magic for ice barrage

[midnight dome]

Idk you don't want to be ranging all of slayer either

And end up with 80s melees

So they do matter a bit

[next crow]

i mean yeah vast majority of melee xp pre 99 is gained thru slayer, I mean that in general, whatever you fight with whatever style you will get combat xp, that's just how it works

i suppose melee is different but maybe it depends on your goals

[opal dagger]

melee is different since there really aren't great ways to super charge the xp like barrage/chins

[hybrid blaze]

nah

also I really dont see the dwh stuff

graardor is just good

[next crow]

true, I guess by specific grinds I meant melee slayer but then it isn't too specific lol

[midnight dome]

I like range warden at high invo

[drowsy ore]

I disagree, chally during slayer/chins. Araxor/ Yama are all very good super charged xp

[opal dagger]

what's your best case xp/hr for melee doing those methods?

[hybrid blaze]

it should be like 70k str xp/hr at barrage nechs I think

[opal dagger]

calling that super charged is a bit of a stretch. Granted its efficient.

[drowsy ore]

Araxxor is 150-200k xp/hr iirc

[wanton jasper]

ayo?

[normal prism]

What switches do u bring for chally speccing barrage tasks?

[midnight dome]

I brought a 4way, cape glove amulet weapon

[drowsy ore]

There is a case for camping melee boots and lightbearer/ bring i

[midnight dome]

Ye I did camped melee boots too since eternals didnt give max

Lb is also good

Can add a bring swap for specs too but I didnt bother

[craggy granite]

progression chart I saw mixology before slayer helm, and iirc we need slayer helm for desert hard
and after cg/sep or whatever, spending that gp to make the thousands of unfinished pots to get to 81 herblore before mixology sounds nice

[hybrid blaze]

yeah I agree, slayer helmet before 81 herb is a good idea

[full panther]

am i understanding correctly that mixology rewards are proposed as delayed to after slayer helm in the chart?

[hybrid blaze]

Yes, I'd get slayer helm first

[sudden venture]

So with the proposed changes, I’m running 320/330s with hasta and warped sceptre (kill me) in a rush for fang and LB. Can I park this until trident/occult/bloodbark since the proposed nerfs aren’t as bad around 300ish as we previously thought??

[indigo hollow]

If your mage setup sucks I’d probably just wait for the changes so you can do bowfa butterfly

[sudden venture]

Alright thanks that’s the answer I was hoping for lol. 42min toas is brutal

[indigo hollow]

On the other hand there’s no definitive timetable on the changes

So if waiting means doing a bunch of slayer without fang then idk about that

[sudden venture]

I’m at 85 slay so pushing 2 lvls for trident isn’t all that bad. Bloodbark and trident maybe a lucky magic fang drop would really do some good

[mellow matrix]

if ur not sending 400+ right now its prob a net buff tbh

[indigo hollow]

I agree

[mellow matrix]

theyre giga nerfing the things that really gate peoples invo

via baba dmg, orb phase

making ovls less shit etc

[indigo hollow]

Akkha in general as a supply drain and 6+ minute room with shit gear

[dusky fog]

Can you share your gear/inventory setup? Think we are in very similar position although I’m going back to grab voidwaker first as I only need 1 more piece

[somber dagger]

ye, 320 drop rate isnt that much diffrent

probly faster to get fang in 300-320 after changes?

[neat sparrow]

Yeah or you could push invo with changes

[opal dagger]

pushing past 300 is counter productive for fangs i'm pretty sure with the new change

https://i.redd.it/w4hlxitegd5f1.png

[hollow cobalt]

If you dont care about other drops maybe

[opal dagger]

well fang and lb ye

[sudden venture]

BGS, full bandos, claws, yellow Keri’s (3kc lol) mystics and warped sceptre, full crystal with anguish, torture, d boots. 85 slay. I take more ppots cause of yellow Keri’s on ahkka. Tried doing 350s and he would annhilate me so using yellow Keri’s

Feel like waiting might be the play if I’m only going for fang and LB ???

[mellow matrix]

probably right

i think doomsend if ur sending >400s already

[somber dagger]

The thing is that raids will also go faster right

Idk how much that has to say

[opal dagger]

sure but not faster than the 300s

[somber dagger]

Ye

[opal dagger]

If you want to lower your fang/lb chance for better chance at other purps you should push invo. otherwise 300 seems like the best for getting your fang

[fossil flame]

are they changing wieghting of uniques based on raid lvl?

[opal dagger]

yeah look at the graph i posted

[fossil flame]

hmm man i skimmed that hard thought it was flat purple rate nerf

[opal dagger]

essentially fang and lb get capped to 300 raid lvl rarity no matter how high you push your invo

[somber dagger]

So i guess you dont wanna push over 300 then

Since masori is eeh

And shadow is weird so early

[fossil flame]

wym by capped exactly

[opal dagger]

essentially doing any raid lvl above 300 is the same chance/raid to get a fang/lb as a 300

so a 500 and a 300 have the same chance to get a fang/lb

[somber dagger]

But you can do 300 faster

[fossil flame]

is that not how it works already u have 1/3.4 chance for dupe fang?

and u do higher raid lvl for better purp rate

[somber dagger]

No, they are reducing the drop rate on it over 300

[fossil flame]

does that make getting shadow faster overall?

[opal dagger]

as it stands live invo just increases the chance to get any purple iirc

after 300 you have less chance/purple to get a fang so it averages out to be the same rarity as getting a fang at 300 with the new change

but you do slower raids

[fossil flame]

what about the other items

like shadow

[opal dagger]

everything is getting nerfed post 300 raid lvl but if you do get a purple you're more likely to see a non fang/lb

how much its nerfed vs how big the buffs are for clear speed remain to be seen

[mellow matrix]

running low invo for fang is trolling

u want shadow

[fossil flame]

ye i remember release before they buffed scaling ppl just did money 150s over pushing raid lvl

[mellow matrix]

i dont think they were right to do that though

[fossil flame]

i still wish they would nerf rates on both ends to avoid something wierd

[mellow matrix]

people were just clueless

[hollow cobalt]

Yeah but that was never good

people just saw drops happening at low invo ( we don't talk about those)

and assumed low invo was bis

but it never was

[fossil flame]

ye it was prob cope but with the nerfs definitely feels like its punishing higher lvl raids and buffing crap raids as a result

[opal dagger]

with the ahka change allowing you to butterfly with a bowfa the fang is a lot less needed to push higher raid lvl

[mellow matrix]

honestly

it never was

[hollow cobalt]

People have always been potting bowfa+hasta 400s

just will be more chill

[opal dagger]

but now 500s seem more realistic

[fossil flame]

i feel 450s will be harder then current 400s personally

[opal dagger]

for shadowless/fangless

[hollow cobalt]

with baba+akkha being legit 0 supplies then yeah sure it helps a lot

but wardens is no change

[fossil flame]

warden p4 is gona be crazy with that extra hp/defence

3dowing core as well

[opal dagger]

so do you just keep sending 400s post change

[fossil flame]

idk ppl were saying 450/500 new standard

[mellow matrix]

just same as before, highest you can

[fossil flame]

but honestly idk i didint even know they were effecting wieghtings

[mellow matrix]

but once you get way above 400s pathfinder becomes good, dehydration etc

they might also change dt and medic a bit

[fossil flame]

i might just do speed 350s instead

[mellow matrix]

i dont see what would make fast raids better tbh

[fossil flame]

easier more consistent

[opal dagger]

being able to butterfly with bowfa and monkey room

[fossil flame]

its already how i feel about pushing past 400 rl now

[opal dagger]

never having to use mage on anything other than wardens p2 seems like a big boon to non shadow havers

[fossil flame]

it does ye but camping same higher raid lvl is a pretty big nerf no?

[mellow matrix]

your raid lv should go up

[fossil flame]

personally thought logic was^ raid easier so u push raid lvl higher to compesate for nerfs

but idt invos past 400 are that friendly and neither is warden pre shadow

even accounting for baba/akkha being way easier

[mellow matrix]

they said they wanted to make faster raids better i just dont see it happening ?

with their changes

they have to remove like... hp scaling from invo

or something

[fossil flame]

i think it definitely would make it faster for same raid lvl ppl are currently doing