also-manga

[grand flower]

That’s his favorite part

[sturdy steeple]

Makes sense tbh. Punk Hazard had dragons, weird animal hybrids and scientific experiments. Seems bloated for one arc.

[scarlet nacelle]

wano arc

[fallen meteor]

arc idea

[sturdy steeple]

Well, it doesn’t really seem that way anymore because we’re used to Oda’s writing style but it does explain a couple of things about that arc.

[grand flower]

Those all fall into a sci-fi theme tho

Not so much the dragon on paper

[tranquil blade]

https://tenor.com/view/lowtiercat-ptsdcat-gif-2094566730569540919

[sturdy steeple]

Nah, I mean he just had a few different ideas that he adapted to fit in one arc, Sauron.

[trim lily]

me when i divide the arc length by the radius

[sturdy steeple]

Sauron lol

[fallen meteor]

yoda be like 7 6

[distant vine]

Imagine me throwing a heavy pack of 100 dollar bills into your forehead

[cloud adder]

both Viz translation and Stephen Paul's translation really only talk about losing the ability to swim, although Paul's translation of Buggy's line has him saying he turned into a cannonball which i guess is the substitute for kanazuchi/hammer bit

[ashen perch]

he loves designing cool and unique and fun characters

[warm fossil]

to be honest I don't think you need to suspend your disbelief even a little in the case of sanjuan, as he's always standing really close to an island and as such not actually on anywhere near normal ocean floor

[ashen perch]

he has really done everything to save time lately lmao but thats one thing that doesnt change

this is why I believe Lodestar's gonna have its own culture and people/characters too, not even Laugh Tale is safe

[trim lily]

the downside of this is sometimes he'll make a very interesting character and we'll never see them do anything outside of like one action

[warm fossil]

lodestar is such a pointless destination

[distant vine]

Its as pointless as Oda chooses for it to be

Let Oda cook

[ashen perch]

Eh most times they dont really have to do too much, like back in Wano when people were convinced that the Yakuza bosses were gonna be a big deal because of their designs when all Oda was doing was having fun creating cool designs

[grand flower]

Robin may need it

Elbaph had a reference to it

When Harald was showing Ida navigation

[fringe citrus]

L ratio?

[ashen perch]

people often project more importance upon things than Oda ever does

[distant vine]

What's the status on the last Glyph Luffy needs? How much info do we have on it?

[ashen perch]

0

[trim lily]

its the burn scar

thats it

[warm fossil]

not 0

[ashen perch]

just that the burn scar has it

[warm fossil]

it's on a ship

[trim lily]

maybe

[warm fossil]

a black one

[strong wadi]

It was the one on fmi and burnscar is the biggest lead to it

[trim lily]

actually we dont even know if the burn scar has it

[ashen perch]

well the burn scar is believed to have it smh

[warm fossil]

ok come on now we definitely do lol

[cloud adder]

did Neptune mention the missing glyph to SHs or nah?

[distant vine]

Burn scar man in the Astral World?

[warm fossil]

it's a pointless red herring if it is one

[strong wadi]

no

[trim lily]

the heaven realm isnt real

[distant vine]

It is real

Theyre going trust

[warm fossil]

so is it being on his ship

[distant vine]

Itll be the Post Elbaph location

[ashen perch]

this kind of strengthens the Harald idea lol

[trim lily]

yeah its very likely

[cloud adder]

jesus Neptune is lowkey an opp, he didnt mention the red glyph and he was ready to gamble on the explosives given to BM to be duds

[ashen perch]

because they are besties, and if Neptune's in on it, he wouldnt care to mention

[trim lily]

i wonder why sunbell stole the poneglyph

[cloud adder]

um, are you saying you think Harald is alive?

[warm fossil]

harald has not traveled on a black ship in the last 15 years

he's not the guy

[strong wadi]

We have Harald/burnscar theories somehow, but what about harald/mosa theories

[trim lily]

thatd be awesome

[ashen perch]

I dont personally think so cause I have entirely different ideas on it but there are pieces that fall in place

[cloud adder]

loki doesnt recognize his father's voice he got so traumatized 💔

[strong wadi]

He just speaks with an accent

[trim lily]

harald fakes his death then watches as the country turns on his son

[warm fossil]

its extremely clear to me we have not met the burn scar man yet

[cloud adder]

if the better translation is actually man marked by flames, i still believe it could be shamrock

[distant vine]

Oda its not too late. Retcon the SBS and make it Hanafuda

[warm fossil]

shamrock would have 0 reason to travel with a glyph lol

[trim lily]

just keep it in mariejois

[warm fossil]

if the WG had one it'd be locked away in imus basement

[strong wadi]

if "man marked by flames" is the better translation, it's Barbel who grew his hair back out 🔥

[trim lily]

its sunbell

hes the only character to match every requirement for it

this is an undisputed fact

[grand flower]

Around 70 years ago, we see Harald continuing his travels, as he reaches the Wano Country, even meeting with some samurai there as we can spot their katana and topknots. He tells them about the “Pole Star” a star that never moves, making navigation easier as it always gives the direction of North. Its kanji reads as Hokkyoku Sei (北極星), which means North Pole Star, or “Polaris”, being the Japanese name for the star always standing respective to the North Pole’s axis, making it a useful guide for navigators. The fact this star has the exact same name as it does for us once again reinforces the idea that Bluestar and Earth are one and the same planet in some way or another. But this is in fact not the first time that this star was brought up, as in the Yellow Databook, there’s an excerpt from Nami commenting on the Pole Star, explaining its purpose for navigation just as Harald does here. Interestingly, Roger’s hometown, the Pole Star Archipelago, upon which Loguetown is built, was also seemingly named after this star, which makes an interesting parallel in how Roger’s journey took him from the Pole Star Archipelago all the way to Lode Star Island, especially as Polaris is considered a lode star, that term referring to a star used for navigation.

[cloud adder]

no reason to fully believe the bits and pieces BBPs speculated, but yeah, like your follow up message says, WG could have the red glyph in holyland and maybe Shamrock/Figarlands are in charge of protecting it

[ashen perch]

The way he is talked about when he was purging pirates in 1167, his friendship with Neptune, the pattern of Oda having dead rules be secretly alive like Yasuie, Riku and Sukiyaki, his scar coming from Loki's attack, etc

[strong wadi]

We do not have any evidence he has a burn scar or is a man marked by flames

the other stuff, yes

[trim lily]

he has flame markings on his arms

but yeah that is a stretch lol

[warm fossil]

the only thing I'm hoping for is we get a battle at sea for the last glyph

[trim lily]

whoever it is, the burn scar must be their most defining characteristic

[ashen perch]

personally I would prefer my former Gorosei idea because its good and cool and fun, or Mom Marked by Flames, but I cant deny that theres stuff about it that could make sense

[warm fossil]

as it is on a ship

[distant vine]

Why didnt Sukiyaki avenge his son? Bottom tier dad?

[cloud adder]

Sukiyaki is weak

[ashen perch]

he isnt shown to have the ability to even fight lol

[cloud adder]

how is he avenging anyone

[ashen perch]

well, I imagine he can cause he is a samurai, but probably not too well

[wraith mantle]

library of ohara chapter analysis always amazing

[warm fossil]

sukiyaki got plot diffed by base orochi

[distant vine]

I was being sarcastic but I'll forgive him anyways cause he played a part in forging a better warrior than Oden

[ashen perch]

I gotta check the Wiki on this because they have the stupidest things ever as feats

1s

[fallen meteor]

the man flamed by mark

[ashen perch]

theres surely a Sukiyaki Feat somewhere that only the wiki has noted down

[cloud adder]

marco polo

[strong wadi]

He definitely a fraud for not teaching tama the kozuki poneglyph technique

[grand flower]

It’s Louis arnot

[warm fossil]

the people are clearly not ready for the man marked by flames to be Kong

[formal wagon]

someone pose the horse vs mark video

[ashen perch]

what the hell, sure

[strong wadi]

You are right. I would not be ready for that.

[warm fossil]

no need for would my friend

[ashen perch]

thank you wiki, this puts him at atleast Hody Level

[distant vine]

Luffy raids Beehive and saves Garp. As a sign of their relationship being restored, Garp hints Luffy that to become Pirate King he'll need to get into contact with Kong

[formal wagon]

SUKIYAKI VERSUS SHIMOTSUKI KOZABURO WHO WINS

this guy

[fallen meteor]

sucky yucki more like

[warm fossil]

highkey I would not be be surprised if the final poneglyph is given as a reward for some challenge set by the burn scar man participated by Luffy and BB

[cloud adder]

huh

[distant vine]

Relative to Base Act 1 Luffy

[formal wagon]

highkey i would mleh

[warm fossil]

real

[ashen perch]

Luffy will have a Davy Back Fight with Burn Scar

[distant vine]

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-foxy-groggy-monsters-hamburg-pickles-gif-20168033

[ashen perch]

lmao

[distant vine]

We're gonna be so back with the second Davy Back Fight btw

Piratefolk will be quiet for months because everyone is gonna be happy

[grand flower]

IG surviving what Kaido and Orochi were doing for 20 years DOES show how strong those people were

[distant vine]

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-lawyers-world-transparency-mundo-gif-12537590

[fallen meteor]

the davy back fight will be back on one piece: virasday

[ashen perch]

Lodestar as a mini arc does kind of make it the prime location for a DBF

[trim lily]

i hate that oda justified the davy back fight believers

[ashen perch]

I dont think its gonna be an Elbaf style 100 chapter arc

[ashen perch]

we were always right

[fallen meteor]

wano take it or leave it

[distant vine]

https://tenor.com/view/hamburg-one-piece-nami-robin-wait-what-gif-20184990

[trim lily]

15 chapter arc, send it

[distant vine]

I love Robin's reaction in this gif lmao

[ashen perch]

Davy is among the most important figures in pirate history

[distant vine]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-blink-shocked-ok-then-okay-then-gif-8609676

[ashen perch]

ofc he was gonna be a major character, people were being silly about this

[dapper tree]

BB vs Luffy davy back fight

it's only right

[ashen perch]

I think the only thing that has surprised me by being more important than I could have imagined is the frozen giants from Punk Hazard

[trim lily]

i bet you also said shanks having an evil twin was obvious

[ashen perch]

I wouldnt say obvious but it was no longer something we could deny with the Reverie

as a possibility

pre Reverie, there was this crack theory that there is a secret Shanks twin that scarred WB and fought Kaido

[solemn comet]

is there a link

[ashen perch]

which I thought sounded ridiculous, I made fun of it even

[solemn comet]

I’m curious

[dapper tree]

I would find it funny if shamrock fought kaido but he is a bum

[ashen perch]

its too old atp, I only saw it on Oro Jackson

[dapper tree]

so shanks lost feats

[ashen perch]

but fun fact: Oda was even directly asked about it

this was post Reverie though, mid Wano

[tranquil blade]

It would be kinda funny if Shamrock was the one to scar Whitebeard

[dapper tree]

too bad

[strong wadi]

From Garling-believers to Shamrock-believers...

[fallen meteor]

a link to what

[trim lily]

poor garlic

[ashen perch]

I still think it was Garling

[tranquil blade]

Partially because I dont think Garling deserves that kinda thing, and if you arent satisfied with it being Roger then well

[dapper tree]

garling was never that good

[trim lily]

ive accepted its just roger

[ashen perch]

now that I have actually read the line recently and looked at different translations, it just cannot be Roger

[trim lily]

it being garlic makes even less sense to me

[tranquil blade]

You've said that before yeah

[distant vine]

Im glad nobody fights me on Davy Back Fights anymore

[cloud adder]

Shamrock scarred WB

[ashen perch]

the way WB talks about the guy, its got a very negative tone to it

[tranquil blade]

Maybe Whitebeard just was in a bad mood that day

[olive sigil]

People used to challenge you to Davy back fights?

[distant vine]

Worse, they said they would never return in the story

[ashen perch]

"that guy" is said in the same way as like when Luffy says "those guys 💢 " about BBP

[strong wadi]

I was probably one of those people but mostly because i thought strawhat vs red-haired pirates Davy back fight was dumb

[ashen perch]

so yea, it has an inherent negative tone to it, unlikely that its someone he is friendly with

[cloud adder]

SHPs v RHPs davyback would be insanely wholesome

[ashen perch]

Shamrock does make more sense because Shanks's face would remind WB of that guy more than anyone else lol

[distant vine]

I want a 4 Way Yonko Davy Back

[ashen perch]

though Garling still absolutely works

[distant vine]

Itd be like a tournament

So hype

[cloud adder]

Do you think there's any chance that WB getting scarred by Garling or Shamrock happened shortly before BB scarred Shanks and BB scarred Shanks as pay back for what happened to WB?

[ashen perch]

I could see them being linked yea

[strong wadi]

This goes against the idea of drawing attention to himself and biding time

[distant vine]

I'm gonna get political at the start here, but imagine BB defeating Imu, and he becomes ruler of the world, and he starts this Davy Back Fight

[ashen perch]

well, what if Shamrock went to attack WB for Shanks

[cloud adder]

RHPs at the time were in their early years

[ashen perch]

maybe he was a really caring brother

but regardless, I think there can be a connection between them for sure

[cloud adder]

OMG i never considered the reverse of the events 😭

[ashen perch]

yeaa

[tranquil blade]

The biggest question is how would Whitebeard get himself in a situation where he encounters a holy knight in the first place

God Valley was of course different because it was a celestial dragon hunting ground

[ashen perch]

well in Roger's case they did just sail up to him, so they could do that maybe

[grand flower]

Or Shamrock

[ashen perch]

yeah both are good options

[rose rune]

btw, Usopp will die when they find the one piece

[tranquil blade]

They sailed on him because he had Shanks tho, unless they knew Whitebeard had the son of Xebec with him

[grand flower]

Also this chapter confirms Shanks’ red hair is visually distinct in universe too

[ashen perch]

Red Haired Joyboy incoming

[quick remnant]

I don’t see how garling would be capable of scarring Whitebeard lol

[cloud adder]

wait, what in this chapter confirmed that

[ashen perch]

all you have to do is understand that GV was 38 years ago and Garling was young as hell

[cloud adder]

OH because HKs were going after baby shanks nvm

[ashen perch]

its really not so complicated

[strong wadi]

On further research, Shamrock is a bad option looking at when he got the scar

[tranquil blade]

Garling was probably at least pushing 30

[cloud adder]

the timeframe for WB getting the chest scar is broad no?

[ashen perch]

he was in his early 20s, he looks as young as pre ts Sanji in GV

[quick remnant]

So was Whitebeard

[tranquil blade]

I dont think he was like barely 20 years old during that arc

[strong wadi]

no, actually

[tranquil blade]

He does not look as young as pre ts Sanji

[cloud adder]

we know WB didnt have it when he last met with Roger

[quick remnant]

None of this really proves garling is capable of scarring Whitebeard

[strong wadi]

Au contraire, he did

[cloud adder]

when is the earliest we've seen WB with the chest scar?

[quick remnant]

Oda probably just forgot lol

[ashen perch]

not at all though, WB is in the same age group as Roger and Garp

[cloud adder]

lemme check the chapter panels

[tranquil blade]

Whitebeard has more than one chest scar tho

[quick remnant]

They were all in or near the 30s bracket lol

[ashen perch]

Garling still retains his blonde hair color, WB doesnt

[strong wadi]

wait

[tranquil blade]

Well in the anime yeah

[ashen perch]

WB is clearly much older lol

[strong wadi]

The anime is just a fucking fraud

[quick remnant]

We have no idea when Whitebeard lost his hair color lol

This is assuming a timespan

[ashen perch]

I think we can assume he got it with age, the timeline doesnt matter

[cloud adder]

do you have the anime ep number?

[quick remnant]

Garling clearly does not have portrayal putting him anywhere near Whitebeard

[strong wadi]

People really were discussing this shit 2 years ago in a twitter thread cause of the garling theories

[quick remnant]

Age does matter in this context lol

[tranquil blade]

Bro remembered the anime lol

[cloud adder]

common sneaky Goda moment

never trust Toei 🔥

[tranquil blade]

Also he distinctly has like 3 different chest scars

[quick remnant]

I’ll actually play along with you, how would garling scar Whitebeard?

What shows he’s capable of it

[ashen perch]

what has shown he isnt

[quick remnant]

Getting absolutely dusted by xebec lol

[ashen perch]

again, you have one performance from GV, when he is clearly very young

[quick remnant]

And you supposedly have nothing

[strong wadi]

Eh, I'll still go with it being Roger

[quick remnant]

So I’ll go with what we actually have to be fair

[ashen perch]

A young fledgling of a HK, not a commander, and obviously not the supreme commander

[cloud adder]

chapter 434, WB seems to be indicating multiple of his chest scars are from Garling/Shamrock

[quick remnant]

I don’t see what difference being a supreme commander would make, the holy knights aren’t and have never been a competent fighting force

[ashen perch]

you dont have anything, you have a feat from 38 years ago.

or well anti feat

[quick remnant]

I don’t have anything except I have something

Alright.

[tranquil blade]

I'm willing to give Shamrock a lot more grace considering he is directly compared to Shanks, so naturally it feels less unrealistic for him to be that capable

[formal wagon]

so they say

[ashen perch]

Did you not see Shanks seem powerless just 14 years ago last chapter against an enemy that is weaker than the dude he is beating in 8 years?

[tranquil blade]

Garling has no feat post GV at all

[quick remnant]

You don’t actually have any real way to prove garling got stronger in anyway that doesn’t include immortality

[tranquil blade]

He has literally nothing

[ashen perch]

compare it to THIRTY EIGHT years

[hot cairn]

yeah I wasnt a fan of that either the Rebecca one is crazy and with the Bonney stuff it doesn’t help that every other female adult is dress the same

[rose rune]

he got them from Stussy

[quick remnant]

I have no idea why you’re all clinging onto garling being that strong lol

[ashen perch]

if 8 can make that much of a difference, then 38 absolutely would

[rose rune]

anyways. good night

[cloud adder]

was the Oda special Q&A before or after Garling got elder status?

[tranquil blade]

before

[ashen perch]

before

[tranquil blade]

I think

[vital heart]

That is not how its supposed to come across for our tl.

[cloud adder]

Because that special Q&A had Oda saying Garling is very strong for a reason

[dapper tree]

both of them are such bums

[quick remnant]

This is presupposing he actually puts Loki down the way you think he’s putting him down

Also he didn’t seem powerless at all, he sliced through haralds leg like butter

[vital heart]

The reason is Imu

[tranquil blade]

Garling is probably a little stronger than like Saturn I could see

[cloud adder]

nightnight thigh sweet dreams

[ashen perch]

he was powerless, they needed Loki to bail them out

[quick remnant]

He was so powerless he was slicing harald up?

[ashen perch]

yes

[quick remnant]

Alright.. so not actually powerless

[ashen perch]

Usopp blew off the top half of Gunko

he was still powerless against her

[cloud adder]

too boring/obvious of a reason imo
i think Garling is stealing lifeforce from slaves to increase his haki or something

[strong wadi]

Whitebeard was actually ill because he was attacked by Shamrock a year prior, but he could not recover from the Cerberus' venom (wikipedia certified power) but allowed his injuries to scar over🧘‍♂️

[quick remnant]

Yeah we know this because ussop actually went all out

[tranquil blade]

This is something he would do but idk how he would do it

[distant vine]

Oh then maybe its my bad

[cloud adder]

never call shamrock a bum

[tranquil blade]

It sounds in character tho

[ashen perch]

Shanks was going all out too lol

[dapper tree]

he is tho

[quick remnant]

What panel shows that

[craggy vapor]

tbh it seems like if you are immortal, you get blown off easier

[quick remnant]

He does not use a single named attack

[tranquil blade]

Harald is immortal and was far stronger than any other knight

[cloud adder]

he hasnt had enough panel time for that accusation

[craggy vapor]

like you become pudding

[dapper tree]

he had enough time

[quick remnant]

And regardless, there’s still nothing proving shanks actually beat down Loki in a fair one on one.

[ashen perch]

Gaban says that their only hope of winning (even TOGETHER) was Loki. Lets be real here

[cloud adder]

his sword probably has a DF/ability, i hope we get the name of his sword soon

[tranquil blade]

Gaban makes it very clear with his words that the other knights are nowhere near the strength of Harald by the time of the castle incident

[cloud adder]

pls just blame garling 💔

[ashen perch]

Shanks was not only entirely outmatched against Harald, he wasnt winning even with the help of Gaban. That was the difference in levels that he overcame in the next 8 or so years

[quick remnant]

He just says their only hope was Loki, that could be interpreted as them not wanting to kill harald.

[frigid gulch]

So you’re saying he’s a demon

[shadow python]

Gaban seems like a fraud

[frigid gulch]

[tranquil blade]

Harald is a demon yeah

Loki is just a bigger demon

[shadow python]

I thought he had some secret skill for killing the immortals but his strat was just to hit them really hard

[dapper tree]

he inherited bum genes

[quick remnant]

I mean sure, let’s go with this, how do we know he actually puts Loki down the way you think he did?

[strong wadi]

Shanks and Gaban working together couldnt even stop Harald from killing every other giant in the castle 😭

[quick remnant]

And why would this prove garling became as strong as you think

[cloud adder]

Gyaban saying this is especially crazy because him and Shanks were literally freshly bathe, rested, full bellies, etc.

[shadow python]

He probably never even killed an immortal. We have to count on Dr. Chopper to pick up his slack

[quick remnant]

I don’t really see the correlation here

[ashen perch]

also lets be real here, Gaban clearly emphasises on individual strength when he is testing Luffy's own strength and seeing if he could stop a rampaging Loki

[frigid gulch]

They didn’t actually go all out against Harald I’d say

But doing so is risky

[ashen perch]

Shanks definitely beat Loki in a fair fight, theres not gonna be some twist here

[frigid gulch]

And seemingly wouldn’t work

[shadow python]

Gyabans statement infers that he and Shanks were weaker than base Loki

[quick remnant]

There definitely could be and there probably will be lol.

[tranquil blade]

Well unless you're bean or socrates Loki probably lost to Shanks 1v1

[craggy vapor]

Immortal Harald is as strong as demon Rocks, so of course Gaban and Shanks didn’t stand a chance.

[dapper tree]

Shanks also seems like he was holding back just a bit, he didn't wanna kill him

[shadow python]

Meanwhile an older Gyaban was able to fight Luffy and Zoro at the same time

[cloud adder]

Shanks had a mental nerf yeah

[dapper tree]

doesn't mean shanks was stronger

but not at his max

[shadow python]

The goal was to kill him Shanks just wasn't strong enough to do so

[quick remnant]

Sure, I’m just not seeing how this would prove garling is capable of scarring Whitebeard.

[strong wadi]

Yeah, the argument is basically, a shanks that was so "weak" 14 years ago was able to beat that level of opponent after 8 years of being a pirate

[craggy vapor]

wasn’t he trolling them?

[shadow python]

That doesn't make it better

[frigid gulch]

I mean I can believe that there was a twist to it

[dapper tree]

shanks wanted to save him

[frigid gulch]

That’s kinda the story of Loki

[dense haven]

gaban could've easily destroyed zoro and luffy if he wanted to

[quick remnant]

I think it’s pretty reasonable there’s some caveats to shanks actually beating Loki

[dense haven]

he was just being silly

[frigid gulch]

No he couldn’t have lol

[cloud adder]

were Shanks and Gyaban close enough to hear that Loki was leaving to eat the DF before Harald could get it?

[shadow python]

He did. But he's the one who just got done explaining how impossible it was. And Gyaban was saying that the only hope was Loki

[tranquil blade]

I think there's a twist as to why Shanks fought and defeated Loki, but I dont think the fight didnt happen

[frigid gulch]

It still might’ve

[ashen perch]

The point is that a performance as old as 38 years ago is irrelevant when we are seeing what a difference just 8 years made for Shanks. Just like Shanks overcame that difference in strength in the next 8 years to beat Loki, nothing is stopping Garling from more than redeeming himself. Its just silly to hold that against him.

[shadow python]

As presented in the chapter Loki was stronger than Shanks even before eating the devil fruit

[tranquil blade]

I could see Loki not actually being as much of a rampaging monster as he was said to be and instead he was gonna try to like raid Mariejois and Shanks stopped him from getting himself killed

I could see a twist like that

[shadow python]

Since then Shanks lost an arm, Loki gained Squirrel and has had 6 years to master said fruit

[tranquil blade]

To me it's already clear Loki isnt as evil as were told he was at the beginning of the arc

[quick remnant]

You have no real way to prove shanks actually put down Loki the way you’re implying

Sure, but this seems a far cry from your original argument of him being capable of scarring Whitebeard, which there’s nothing in the manga to support him actually being able to do.

[shadow python]

Sure Shanks might be better after 6 years but he shouldn't be much better than 4 years ago when he lost his arm

[sage temple]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-superman-gif-632723218522114279

[strong wadi]

I mean, i could definitely see him rampaging against any marine ship, bases, and maybe even countries associated with the World Government

[frigid gulch]

It’s hard to judge what Shanks’ level here is when even Roger and Garp were being thrown around by Rocks

[cloud adder]

did you just say Shanks lost his arm 4 years ago....

[ashen perch]

also I just disagree, Gaban was literally testing how strong Luffy was and warning him that no indivdiual aside from Shanks could manage to stop Loki. Its clear that Shanks did beat Loki in a fight or else Gaban would have no reason to even mention these things

[frigid gulch]

Demon Rocks that is

[shadow python]

No Shanks lost it 4 years from Lokis defeat

[frigid gulch]

And then on top of that

Harald has regen

[quick remnant]

Loki beat up harald, and has portrayal of someone so strong he might seemingly be nerfed to a weaker state than what he originally was until the very end of the series

I struggle to believe shanks actually put him down lol

[sage temple]

He doesn't say Luffy has to stop Loki the same way Shanks does

[frigid gulch]

There’s just no feasible way to counter so far without the fruit seemingly

[sage temple]

Gaban would have plenty of reason to test them knowing how powerful Loki is

[strong wadi]

?

[sage temple]

It doesn't matter if Loki and Shanks fought or not

But you can pretend what you want I guess

[ruby moat]

are we still coping that shanks didnt beat loki

[cloud adder]

Shanks captured Loki 6 years ago, Shanks lost his arm 12 years ago

[sage temple]

Are we still unblocking my messages

[craggy vapor]

don’t forget that Loki called Shanks a coward. When a good guy says this, it has to mean something. Shanks probably used a dirty trick.

[tranquil blade]

Maybe, but I dont see him going out of his way to kill regular civilians regardless, it seems like by the time of the incident he largely didnt kill people unless they provoked him like alcohol village

[sage temple]

Don't speak to me Bart

[dense haven]

it doesnt matter if loki killed harald either but that aint stopping yall loki fans

[quick remnant]

How do we know if gaban actually saw how it went down

Gaban has also been wrong about things during this flashback lol. Whatever he says can be put into question

[sage temple]

https://tenor.com/view/talk-to-the-hand-arnold-schwarzenegger-terminator-quote-movie-gif-13612079

[ruby moat]

Shanks asked loki to tie himself up and loki listened since he was scared of shanks

[shadow python]

This current flashback is 6 years from when Loki was captured. 2 years after this flashback Shanks meets Luffy and loses his arm. This is 4 years from the Loki capture

[hazy echo]

https://x.com/highheadop/status/2007750257296453823?s=46

ワンピースフィギュア集めて三千里のHighHead (@highh...

初めて日本で売ってるの見た😳

X · Jan 4, 2026, 9:45 AM

[dense haven]

finally

opbubus

[sage temple]

Ugly ash

[dense haven]

we got luffybubus before one piece in fornite

[dapper tree]

i'll play fortnite when that happens

[strong wadi]

8 years yeah. I'm just making sure you're saying that the Shanks of 6 years ago, the one that beat Loki using 1 arm, is stronger than the Shanks of 14 years ago.

[cloud adder]

no, this current flashback is about 13 years ago...
shanks loses his arm about a year after harald dying
he then captures loki 6 years later

[shadow python]

So this Shanks who is weaker than base Loki has to get from this point to being Mihawks rival in 2 years. Lose his arm and then get to that level or above to surpass Loki who gained Squirrel and a devil fruit

[quick remnant]

Loki is probably just stronger than shanks, this isn’t difficult to believe

[ruby moat]

humans age faster than giants it makes sense for shanks to make that much progress

[sage temple]

Also Gaban testing Luffy's strength is an obvious requirement because Luffy said the way he would stop Loki was by beating him up

[quick remnant]

Especially since Oda doesn’t draw conclusive winners unless there’s further caveats

[dense haven]

then why did he get one shot

[static canyon]

hai

[ruby moat]

shanks losing his arm has 0 effect on his power

[dapper tree]

at this point in the flashback sure

[dapper tree]

made him stronger

[sage temple]

Loki goes through the most drastic changes of his life though. He was 16 when he began pirating and now he's 21

[quick remnant]

Or even further than this point lol

[shadow python]

He has to be. Gyaban didn't think He and Shanks combined could get the fruit and that Loki was their only hope. This doesn't work if Shanks is stronger than devil fruit loki at this point

[sage temple]

That's almost the entirety of puberty lmao

[dapper tree]

naw

[quick remnant]

There’s nothing to suggest shanks surpassed that Loki lol

[frigid gulch]

It could have affected his power

[dapper tree]

I think it was the trauma

[shadow python]

The simpler explanation though is that Shanks captured Loki someway besides brute strength

[ashen perch]

And I already said that theres nothing debunking it either, that performance from 38 years ago is as good as irrelevant now. Since then, he assumed a position higher than Shamrock who people have no difficulty believing is as strong as Shanks lol. Since then, even the author himself vouched for his strength. Since then he has been clearly distinguished as one of the most important characters in the endgame of the series. You're simply just gonna have to forget GV and look at him outside of it.

[frigid gulch]

He lost his dominant arm

[strong wadi]

Other than you know, the manga that told us he captured Loki 😭

[dapper tree]

but uhh shanks beat him?

[dense haven]

why are people glazing loki this hard now

what did I miss

[cloud adder]

Gyaban specifically said Shanks captured Loki, he didnt say RHPs captured Loki, he only mentioned Shanks

[craggy vapor]

Shanks looks like a middle aged man when he lost his arm.

[ashen perch]

he just talked to Shanks days before the present day lol, I am sure they would have talked about what went down

[strong wadi]

If you want to say it isnt "confirmed", fine. But saying "Nothing to suggest" is just outright wrong

[dapper tree]

socrates brainwashing

[sage temple]

You keep saying "If loki didn't lose in a fight to shanks, x character would have no reason to do y" like the story strongly implies they fought or something

[cloud adder]

Shanks was young and beautiful 12 years ago, and he's still young and beautiful today

[shadow python]

Until we see the encounter we can't tell for sure. But prior to this chapter I was under the belief Shanks was just stronger. But now there's more evidence to think it wasn't a simple affair

[buoyant comet]

Yo hallo

[ashen perch]

Shanks is the better guy here though, and Loki was putting on a mean gimmick, it doesnt have to mean anything.

[frigid gulch]

Gaban can’t be taken as a purely reliable source for the Loki stuff unless we’re told/shown that Shanks discussed with him

[golden valley]

Not anymore

[dense haven]

nobody with a brain will listen to what he says

[cloud adder]

its not just Gyaban, the other giants were saying Red-Hair stopped Loki

[buoyant comet]

0 affect on his power, but it did affect his skills

[muted hedge]

https://x.com/satomaru31000/status/1721138317859955125/photo/1

さとし【SATOSHI】 (@satomaru31000)

『ヤマト』#ワンピース
#ヤマト誕生祭2023 #ONEPIECE #イラスト

X · Nov 5, 2023, 12:12 PM

[frigid gulch]

They’re in the same boat

[tranquil blade]

Even some of the big powerscaler guys in this server are pushing the idea of Loki being like the strongest guy besides Imu and Joyboy, like a big one is people saying Loki is stronger than Kaido

[ashen perch]

Socrates this is silly

[frigid gulch]

Unless they witnessed it firsthand

They would have just seen or heard of the end result

[dapper tree]

These people and recentcy bias

[craggy vapor]

Shanks new drawing style is better but tell me he doesn’t look like a middle aged man here

[dense haven]

we know the giants are bums, its quite obvious shanks did all the work

[shadow python]

I can't believe that a swordsman losing his dominant hand would have no impact. Rather Shanks got strong enough that he's stronger or even now than he was when he lost his arm

[sage temple]

You said the same when I said Loki ate the legendary fruit and look where we are now

[dense haven]

unless there is a hidden 3rd party we don't know about

[golden valley]

I mean, Mihawk talking shit about Shanks losing his arm and him literally being known as the guy who can tell a person’s strength at a glance is pretty substantial

[cloud adder]

If RHPs were involved in capturing Loki, Shanks and his crew would give the whole story during one of their visits

[shadow python]

Point of reference Zoro lost two swords and was struggling with the Meowman bros. Got them back and one shot

[frigid gulch]

Yea it wouldn’t make sense if Shanks didn’t lose strength

[tranquil blade]

I mean a big part of it is how easily he beat Harald once he got the fruit

[golden valley]

But maybe Mihawk thinks this is a respect thing, like Shanks has no honor

[quick remnant]

There’s nothing needing to debunk it, this is a classic burden shift, you cannot say garling is capable of scarring Whitebeard, then ask someone to prove the negative to that claim. This is effectively the same as saying Eos Ussop can beat up Davy jones and there’s nothing proving otherwise

What? 😭 even saturn has a higher position than shamrock the same Saturn who got damaged by kuma and held off by chopper nami and ussop, this is a really bad line of reasoning

The author has vouched for his strength sure, but you’re just presupposing what the author even considers strength.

[dapper tree]

people are just bad at scaling all of them

[cloud adder]

its just the beard giving the older age vibe, minus the beard and he looks like red Luffy

[wraith mantle]

lmao "guy who can tell a person’s strength at a glance" is such an anime thing

[frigid gulch]

He just became stronger despite it

[tranquil blade]

Which kinda forces Harald to either be way way weaker than people think or Loki to be godlike

[buoyant comet]

I'm a fake fan please tell me what RHP stands for

[dense haven]

mihawk talks a lot of shit for someone who ran away from vista

[dapper tree]

he kinda is

[frigid gulch]

But likely limited his potential

[cloud adder]

Red-Hair Pirates

[golden valley]

Mihawk could be thinking like

“A swordsman who sacrifices their dominant arm aint shit.”

[cloud adder]

embarrassing pov for "WSS"

[buoyant comet]

I'm so used to them being called akagami

[dapper tree]

I don't even think mihawk knows what a swordsman is

[cloud adder]

im glad Vista is the real WSS post-MF

[shadow python]

Theres no reason to think Harald got weaker when he says the opposite. So we should conclude that Squirrel > Rocks and Loki is currently stronger than squirrel

[frigid gulch]

I think it’s more of a “how could you sacrifice our rivalry for a mere kid”

Type thing

[ashen perch]

Luffy - "I'll beat him up"
Gaban - "There was only one guy who beat him up, if you dont know what kind of powers he has or what kind of damage he can do-" is a very simple sequence of panels socrates I dont know what to tell you

[golden valley]

That works too

[frigid gulch]

He felt insulted by it

[dense haven]

bro is jealous hes a side bitch

[quick remnant]

Also narrative scaling is what people used to justify garling being a top tier at god valley to begin with, I don’t get why you’re continuing with that argument. Akainu is an endgame opponent and he was put down by cancerbeard at 50 and got sent to work at the desk

[frigid gulch]

But Mihawk understood it at MF

[dapper tree]

a lot to unpack here

[frigid gulch]

I don’t think he holds a grudge

Not anymore

[ashen perch]

pre ts

[wraith mantle]

i hope we get another spread of the BB pirates just like this one

[cloud adder]

we wont

[buoyant comet]

If he did have that point of view, then why did he sail all the way to Shanks island and hand him Luffys bounty?

[shadow python]

Mihawk is weird. He got stopped by two separate commanders at marineford. The only reason we hold him so high are the Shanks comparions

[cloud adder]

rocks szn is over

[wraith mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-biden-cmon-man-us-president-candidate-gif-16967331

[frigid gulch]

He’s still his friend

[buoyant comet]

Mihawk knew Luffy wasn't any ordinary kid

[cloud adder]

RHPs are getting the next crew spread

[wraith mantle]

RHPs are cool as well

[quick remnant]

There’s nothing to unpack, narrative scaling has always been extremely flawed, it’s headcanoning future panels to shit on established canon

[craggy vapor]

u right he looks handsome now

[wraith mantle]

bro, imagine a cross guild spread

[shadow python]

But when were the duel? We know they stopped post losing an arm so they either happened already or are within the next 2 years

[cloud adder]

W edit

[shadow python]

Maybe sparring with Mihawk is how Shanks got so ludicrously strong

[frigid gulch]

All Mihawk knew by that point was Shanks telling him he met an “interesting” kid. He never had firsthand experience up until Baratie

And then he actually tested Luffy

[tranquil blade]

Doesnt even feel like the same guy

[strong wadi]

You’ll either get that or a volume cover. Maybe both if you’re really lucky Just have to be patient.

[frigid gulch]

In Marineford

To determine if he was worth Shanks’ sacrifice

[shadow python]

Do you think Shanks told Mihawk about Ace?

[dapper tree]

no

[wraith mantle]

yeah I think oda will something similar for all the big crews

maybe revs too

[golden valley]

Yes

[craggy vapor]

that’s what it feels like when men shave

[wraith mantle]

Idk if we will get one for the WG

[cloud adder]

Shanks didnt know about Ace specifics and why would he tell Mihawk if he did know

[shadow python]

Mihawk didn't seem particularly interested in Ace during the war but it seems evident the two talk

[strong wadi]

I mean we got BM pirates volume cover, and then Kaido/rocks pirates color spreads

[golden valley]

Shanks and Mihawk fights were called legendary by WB iirc

[dapper tree]

they haki bloomed off each other, cheating the system

speed ran haki growth

[golden valley]

XP farm

[wet condor]

Boosting

[quick remnant]

This is obvious, this is literally what you’re told is the way to improve your haki

Which is why I don’t get the shamrock equals to shanks argument

[dapper tree]

back to back to back duels to boost themselves

[shadow python]

Ace was a potential warlord like Mihawk and making big waves as the superest of super rookies. For him to also be the brother of the boy Shanks went on and on about to Mihawk would definitely be worthy of attention

[golden valley]

His biggest boost is likely imu buffs

[strong wadi]

shonen tropes about twins being near or equal power lol

[craggy vapor]

I think the anime-only watchers will go gooning for Rocks when he is animated

[frigid gulch]

Shanks already had conquerors coating by this point in the flashback

[tranquil blade]

Well Shamrock likely has been in plenty battles himself too, and you can justify it because he has an abyss mark and a special sword ability

[frigid gulch]

He was probably using it against Mihawk

[dapper tree]

those aren't even all that good

[frigid gulch]

And Mihawk likewise

[quick remnant]

He just likely isn’t gonna be as strong as shanks, hear me out, not even close really

[shadow python]

But Mihawk again has no real comment about Ace and didn't react at all to the news of him being Roger's son

[ashen perch]

I am not saying that he did definitely scar WB, I am saying that there is nothing that prevents it from being the case. I am saying that his performance at GV is entirely irrelvant to whether or not he can or can't.

Not relevant, He held a higher position In an organization specifically meant to be a fighting force for the WG. The commander is not gonna be stronger than the supreme commander because there is a hierarchy here.

I dont see what else the author would consider strength?

[shadow python]

Come to think of it hardly anyone really reacted to that at marineford aside from Wb allies

[wraith mantle]

did we get a BM cover?

[ashen perch]

yeah

[frigid gulch]

Ngl that was a cool moment

[golden valley]

The way Shamrock was talking to Loki seemed kinda crazy. So idk, he prolly got it like that

[frigid gulch]

Mihawk personally delivering Luffy’s poster to Shanks

[golden valley]

And Shamrock should’ve been aware of Loki prior

[frigid gulch]

Theyre homies for sure

[dapper tree]

all Hks talk like that, they think they better than everyone

[golden valley]

Yeah, but I don’t think Shamrock is stupid

[dapper tree]

I do

[shadow python]

Is the implication that Mihawk can go from east blue to the new world on a dinghy within a few days?

[craggy vapor]

Mihawk should just join Shanks’ crew.

[tranquil blade]

Yeah but Shamrock is clearly not a Sommers

[dapper tree]

[frigid gulch]

I bet Shanks laughed his ass off at Cross Guild

[cloud adder]

Mihawk would rather die

[shadow python]

Shanks doesn't allow swordsmen on his crew

[tranquil blade]

There used to be theories that he was a part of the crew at one point

[shadow python]

Can't be bringing a sword to a gun fight

[ashen perch]

its only Sommers who has actually talked shit like that, but even then he knows his place lol. He wasnt being confident against a Gaban type

[frigid gulch]

Mihawk probably has too much pride for that

He also doesn’t trust many people

[shadow python]

Reminder Mihawk is currently under Buggy

[golden valley]

Shamrock was telling Loki “get unshackled and we can have our ones” with knowledge on Loki.

[frigid gulch]

“Under”

[cloud adder]

i would love to read the specifics of these theories 😭

[frigid gulch]

He allowed it

[ashen perch]

Shamrock is like that and then some, he is going to be as powerful as his brother easily, shouldnt even be in doubt

[quick remnant]

There’s nothing preventing anything from being the case, but I struggle to see what evidence would support the holy knights pulling up to the Whitebeard pirates and giving him something not even roger could, it sounds pretty absurd

And that fighting force was clearly weaker than the gorosei, completely invalidating your argument.
Also you’re assuming the supreme commander has to be as strong as shamrock, rather than just shamrock setting the bar.

Anything above crocodile level, or katakuri level, or even enel level lol

[tranquil blade]

Sommers fits the archetype of a jackass who doesnt know how much he overrates himself

[golden valley]

I don’t think a shanks twin speaks crazy like that for no reason

[craggy vapor]

I mean he is a pirate so he had to have a pirate crew at some point

[tranquil blade]

If Shamrock didnt look identical to Shanks I probably wouldnt rate him too highly

[shadow python]

We have no evidence Shamrock can even fight. Maybe he just let's his sword do all the work for him

[quick remnant]

It can definitely be a doubt lol

[frigid gulch]

Cmon

[ashen perch]

generally I think people have gotten too silly about the HKs, meme brainrot taking over

[frigid gulch]

I’m sure he can fight

[shadow python]

A contrast to Shanks who fights for his weak allies he uses his strong allies to fight for him

[frigid gulch]

But I don’t believe he’s as strong as Shanks

[ashen perch]

Garling used Shamrock as a measuring stick for Shanks btw

[strong wadi]

One of the like, 5 or 6 covers Luffy didn't invade

[buoyant comet]

Hes going to be powerful but not Shanks level powerful, like that's just not realistic.

[quick remnant]

Having the same potential as your brother does not necessarily mean you have reached it. Shanks was crossing blades with the best in the seas for years I have my doubts shamrock was pulling that off

[frigid gulch]

Garling could be entirely guesstimating

[hazy echo]

https://x.com/strawhats/status/2007619494978421011?s=46

One Piece Daily (@strawhats)

😭

X · Jan 4, 2026, 1:06 AM

[frigid gulch]

He even says “I believe”

Pretty sure

His logic could be twins = same potential

[cloud adder]

Shanks also has no reason to show his full strength to Garling, he was completely in enemy territory

[craggy vapor]

ye he showed that mountain bandit who is king

[buoyant comet]

This is what the strongest creature on the world was doing instead of searching for the one piece

[frigid gulch]

But Shamrock is marked so Shamrock > Shanks

[tranquil blade]

I'm sure Shamrock has similar potential but less fighting experience than Shanks which he supplements with the powers Imu gave him

[buoyant comet]

???

[golden valley]

They got the same confidence

[frigid gulch]

Garling’s POV

[quick remnant]

Idk if those powers would even supplement, the holy knights sure shouldn’t have an immortal yonko level fighter lying around, that wouldn’t even make sense lol

[buoyant comet]

Good thing I didn't jump to conclusions 😭

[cloud adder]

copium: Shanks and Shamrock have been in contact since Shanks left the holyland and Shanks and Shamrock meet up a few times every year to duel for fun

[frigid gulch]

He said he believes Shanks would be an asset on par with Shamrock if he took on the Deep Sea pact

[quick remnant]

This is correct

[craggy vapor]

He is boosted by Imu’s power

[red lagoon]

Shamrock and gunko gonna carry the Hk’s on their back

[tranquil blade]

Well I would almost agree, but then they got Harald for a while so I'm not nearly as sure about it anymore

[sage temple]

Luffy says the way HE will chain up Loki is to beat him up. That's just HIS personality, not Shanks.

Gaban said the last person to CAPTURE (CHAIN LOKI UP) was Shanks, the reason he warns them about how strong Loki is was because Loki is literally that strong and he needs to warn them about how he can be destructive at times.

BECAUSE Gaban is aware Luffy's way of CAPTURING LOKI (CHAINING HIM UP) is to "beat him up" then he would logically need to test his ability to beat shit up before he lets him go to Loki

[quick remnant]

Garling would have no real way of knowing shanks actual ceiling if shanks wanted to hide it, which is plausible

[quick remnant]

Harald was a severe outlier

[sage temple]

Gaban doesn't implyt Loki and Shanks fought at all

[buoyant comet]

I have faith on Killingham to do smth

[ashen perch]

Theres plenty preventing anything from being the case. Also Roger did scar WB, we know he did because in Oden's flashback, he has a bandage on his chest the same place where he had one of his scars lol.

Sure, I do actually believe that Saturn can be more powerful than Shamrock but he just didnt have it anymore during Egghead, out of his prime/rusty and all that, he hadnt even touched solid ground in a while after all.

Also I dont think Oda is an idiot lol, obviously he is talking strong by the current standards

[buoyant comet]

Killinghams df is actually broken

[quick remnant]

In fact gaban makes it clear harald was an outlier

The story does too

[tranquil blade]

Yes, at the time

[sage temple]

Gaban doesn't imply they dueled either, it could've been multiple strong people against Loki

[red lagoon]

Killingham df op as shit but I wonder how strong he acc is

[frigid gulch]

I guess we could say Garling may have said “show me what you’ve got” but even then can’t guarantee that Shanks went all out

[ashen perch]

I really doubt that

[frigid gulch]

And that’s just a hypothetical

[golden valley]

If sommers can fight, so can Shamrock. Also, Shamrock is the better fighter among the Holy Knights apart from Garling prior to his Elder rank

[buoyant comet]

He probably got all the haki bases covered excluding conq. He'd be YC level

[frigid gulch]

Maybe he didn’t ask him at all

[frigid gulch]

I don’t

[craggy vapor]

I

[tough dust]

gonna assume its gonna be like a cracker thing with killingham

where he spawns so many dreams but he himself is not that strong combat wise but at least he has regen lol

[ashen perch]

Garling could have just fought him to test his potential lol, seems like an easy thing to do

[shadow python]

Garling saying Shamrock and Shanks could be equals doesn't really mean anything due to when he said it.

The Shanks we're seeing now is weaker than base Loki which means Shamrock should be too. For Shanks to have captured the much much stronger Loki later on means he probably improved substantially. Of course this assumes that Shanks did capture Loki by force

[red lagoon]

I stand by the fact I know in my gut shamrock is yonko level

[frigid gulch]

And Shanks could’ve also not shown his full power

[cloud adder]

if oda was fair with the fanservice 💔

[frigid gulch]

Even in that scenario

[ruby moat]

how mfs read this panel

[craggy vapor]

I nearly died laughing when I saw this lol

[buoyant comet]

By some people you mean Socrates 😭

[frigid gulch]

assuming that’s what Garling did

[tough dust]

Haki sosassno brought him back to elbaf 🙏

[tranquil blade]

I also dont get this belief that having a higher rank inherently means you're stronger, I could easily see a commander of the knights being stronger than one of the gorosei, especially since being a knight is far more battle-oriented than being one of the gorosei. The only reason the gorosei should even be stronger than regular holy knights is just because of their demon forms

[ashen perch]

the mental gymnastics are crazy

[shadow python]

Shamrock being the owner of the cerberus means he has the cerberus' power. From the loki interaction it seems it's capable of more destructive force than Gunko and Gunko looked to be above Summers in ability

Even if Shamrock can't throw a single punch he could feasibly be the head just because of his pet

[frigid gulch]

So you’re saying theyre contract merchants

[ashen perch]

well he isnt, the Gorosei are more powerful

[frigid gulch]

[sage temple]

"Years ago, a man named Strawhat Luffy killed Kaido" This statement is acceptable even though Luffy had tons of help in that fight including plenty of supernovas

[golden valley]

Gorosei > HK’s for now imo, but Shamrock could be an exception

[tranquil blade]

You think the gorosei are all yonko level too, and I heavily disagree with that as well

[ashen perch]

Prime Saturn is stronger than Shamrock, Egghead Saturn was rusty

[quick remnant]

And if you reread the flashback, the bandage falls off while he’s chatting to Roger and there is no visible scar, the only scar he could have gotten was when they met under the tree drinking sake, but this would have been their last fight out of plenty.

Sure, but this wouldn’t change the fact that the holy knights are not the strongest fighting force.

Crocodile is certainly considered strong by current story standards to a good portion of fans, we don’t know what Oda considers strong, plenty of people wank enel here but acknowledge there’s stronger guys.

[frigid gulch]

Gorosei > HKs is naturally the case

[tranquil blade]

So idk what to say

[shadow python]

And while we're on the subject Shamrocks sword is an awakened mythical. Making all non awakened devil fruit users outdone by a literal object

[tranquil blade]

Saturn is not that strong

[frigid gulch]

That’s just the hierarchy tbh

[ruby moat]

nobody's made that statement. you made it up.

[craggy vapor]

to be fair everyone seems to ve above Sommers on ability

[sage temple]

I'm giving you an example

[frigid gulch]

Minus maybe Shamrock as you stated

[ruby moat]

of something you made up

[tranquil blade]

Saturn is stronger than Luffy in Egghead exclusively because Luffy couldnt kill him

[shadow python]

Wonder if you can feed a devil fruit a devil fruit

[sage temple]

I made up an example

[buoyant comet]

But like Saturn's conquers haki was over the top like literally everyone on the island was feeling it. He had that much of a presence without being possessed by Imu.

Personally I'm putting the gorosei above even Shamrock

[tranquil blade]

but only because he's a literal immortal, Saturn was not stronger, was not faster, was not more durable, did not have stronger haki than Luffy

[sage temple]

Acting like I quoted Roger saying that shit or smth

😭

[frigid gulch]

The whole haki thing seems to be an abyss thing

Although they still have strong haki

[shadow python]

Reject Haki. Go for Chopper

[ruby moat]

we gotta have a reading comprehension test before ppl can use the server

[sage temple]

The second I give him in example that destroys his argument it's invalid because I made it up

[shadow python]

He will find a cure to immortality and be the doctor who can kill all

[sage temple]

"Years ago, a man named Strawhat Luffy killed Kaido" This statement is acceptable even though Luffy had tons of help in that fight including plenty of supernovas

[craggy vapor]

I mean yeah, that’s a given that all Gorosei are above all Holy Knights

[sage temple]

Is this grammatically correct?

[buoyant comet]

Then 75 percent of this server wouldn't be here

[frigid gulch]

I think the problem is

[ruby moat]

thats ok

[frigid gulch]

Conquerors armor seems to be out of the question

[craggy vapor]

without Emet, One Piece would have ended on egghead.

[ashen perch]

Regardless, scarring WB is not something that is beyond Roger at all, or anyone near his level for that matter. He has plenty of scars on his body lol, like 5 of them atleast.

And I didnt say they are the strongest fighting force, I said they are a strength based combat force where hierarchy would be decided on strength only

Also I think Oda recognizes what strong is supposed to be, he wouldnt hype up a character's strength if he was just supposed to be as powerful as just Crocodile lmao

[tranquil blade]

He has one (1) advantage that basically gives him an auto-win on anyone who cant get around it, that is it, he is not the powerhouse people try to make him into

[buoyant comet]

If we do that, then we may never get to see Socrates ever again 😭

[frigid gulch]

So either Luffy didn’t use conquerors in Egghead or conquerors interacts with regen in a different way

[shadow python]

Fruitless BB scarred Shanks

[sage temple]

"Years ago, a man named Strawhat Luffy killed Kaido"

[ruby moat]

thats ok

[sage temple]

Is this grammatically correct or no

[buoyant comet]

Luffy used conq but he didn't use advanced conq

[tranquil blade]

If you at least argued Saturn was like the Charlotte Snack of the gorosei, I could understand more

[ruby moat]

Socrates thinking reading comprehension is whether or not a sentence is grammatically correct..

[golden valley]

The Gorosei I think all are overall weaker than Emperors

[buoyant comet]

Yeah I think so but that's not what we were referring to 😭

[tough dust]

losing to shanks is prefectly fine.

[cloud adder]

Fruitless BB spent almost two decades on WB's crew by the time he scarred Shanks so yeah, fruitless BB had fighting ability, water is wet type of logic

[frigid gulch]

Best we got is Kizaru

[shadow python]

Going by Gyaban if 2 people have CoCs its just whoevers CoC is bigger

[frigid gulch]

With Star Gun

[buoyant comet]

Not advanced conq since Luffy touched him

[frigid gulch]

That’s ryuo

[shadow python]

So Saturn might just have better CoC than Luffy or at least enough such that he doesn't get wiped like most immortals would be

[craggy vapor]

don’t bully my crewmate or else I’m gonna throw u to the sharks.

[wraith mantle]

big mom has aura

[golden valley]

A Gorosei can be troublesome for an Emperor, but the narrative consistently establishes “If we make an Emperor mad, this might not go well!”

[quick remnant]

He has three, and it was clearly beyond him since Whitebeard states they fought with killing intent while he talks with shanks.

That’s just you assuming crocodile is weak, where’s there’s nothing to suggest oda thinks crocodile doesn’t meet that threshold, or enel who he’s praised before. Hell there’s nothing stopping him from calling ace strong.

[wraith mantle]

damn thats clean

[frigid gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/gum-gum-white-star-gun-white-star-gun-luffy-gear-5-gear-5-luffy-gear-5-gif-3748584348861495100

[ruby moat]

uh oh!

[frigid gulch]

@wraith mantle thoughts

[quick remnant]

Anyways I gtg, good discussion

[tough dust]

thats ryou

[frigid gulch]

[ashen perch]

He is a weird case, the guy had not even stepped on real ground in a long while, complained that Luffy's powers were specifically too much for him. He could have been rusty and also just, really terrible at handling Nika while being competent against anyone else. No way to know for now.

[wraith mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/mcmahon-crying-he-was-special-wwe-vince-mcmahon-gif-13313547165599993551

[tough dust]

the not touching thing is allways been ryou

[wraith mantle]

luffy and kizaru both my goats

[golden valley]

Im of the opinion the Gorosei will be made stronger in the final fight

[cloud adder]

ragnir v kizaru, who wins

[unique lagoon]

are you talking about this page? cuz it credited all 3 captains here?

[buoyant comet]

There's a difference between Ryou and Advanced Conquerors

[ornate tartan]

good discussion, we will continue next time

[grand flower]

@frail kindle @pine ridge @fallen meteor

[ashen perch]

I think they will just be stronger in their hybrid forms

[shadow python]

Saturn had Sanji paralyzed unable to do anything. Meanwhile Even Zoro and Killer were able to do something against Kaido and Big Mom

[wraith mantle]

ok yall over estimating the fuck out of this fucking chipmunk

kizaru no diffs

[sage temple]

That's what I thought. It is grammatically correct, so if I say:
"Years ago, a man named Strawhat Luffy killed Kaido"

it can have the same meaning as Gaban saying:
"Years ago, a man named Red-Haired Shanks captured Loki"

Leaving the possibility of Shanks having help in his presumed fight against Loki which isn't confirmed in by itself

[frigid gulch]

Luffy is combining the two

[cloud adder]

we'll see about this

[red lagoon]

What is this comparison

[frigid gulch]

The “bubble” or space represents CoA

[wraith mantle]

ragnir vs ben beckman who you got

[red lagoon]

Kaido doesn’t have the same hax Saturn has

[buoyant comet]

Yep combining Ryou with Conq is essentially advanced conq

[frigid gulch]

Lightning is conquerors

[tranquil blade]

Luffy is applying the principles of ryuo to his conquerors haki

[cloud adder]

beckman low diffs that rodent

[shadow python]

Saturn's abilities are commendable

[cloud adder]

we still need an explanation on Saturn's eye powers

[shadow python]

No need he's dead now

[frigid gulch]

Conquerors coating is just using conq like coa

[tranquil blade]

It's like a fruit ability, it just gives him an eye blast

[wraith mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-hug-gif-18360220

i am switching up on ragnir

[tough dust]

hes using both lol

[cloud adder]

But can the other gorosei do the same? or was it specific to the gyuki or whatever his spider-cow yokai was called

[crisp pewter]

ragnir glaze got old fast

[ornate tartan]

kizaru is a great character

[ashen perch]

I remember there being more but i'd have to check. I dont think its ever mentioned that Roger didnt scar WB unless I am forgetting something? we just dont know either way.

I actually put current Crocodile at current Sanji level but I really dont think thats the level he was thinking of when he was hyping up an upcoming antagonist, but we'll just agree to disagree I guess

[golden valley]

But we’ve seen two Gorosei hybrids, don’t think they are being shown as this Emperor Class fighters

[tranquil blade]

Ragnir is hyped because people think it alone is stronger than normal Harald and Rocks

[golden valley]

Especially if Zoro is fighting Nusjuro after he beat Mihawk

[buoyant comet]

Guys I know, using conq haki and Ryou is what I mean by advanced conq 😭

[frigid gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-kizaru-one-piece-kizaru-gif-17939305360719893750

[shadow python]

If Saturn can freeze Sanji I don't see why he couldn't freeze any non Luffy opponent. Yet the other elders just let Broggy a guy who got beat my Mr. 3 run rampant

[frigid gulch]

Respect Demon Squirrel

[buoyant comet]

Ragnir isn't stronger than base Harald or rocks, but it still puts up a fight

[craggy vapor]

cow? Does Saturn look like a cow to you? 😭

[wraith mantle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/164971940648321024/1366185303093805056/Luffy_v_Kizaru_Episode_1127.gif

[tranquil blade]

The conclusion I've been getting to in the last few chapters is that powerscaling is kinda not viable anymore, I think it's gonna get weirder and weirder

and make less sense

[trim lily]

it’s specific to the gyuki

[buoyant comet]

All I know is Luffy > everyone

[cloud adder]

ox, my bad

[shadow python]

I'm hesitant to say that Squirrel beats Rocks but Harald isn't really helping the argument. Going by him Squirrel is above he and Rocks and he needed Imus powers to get over Squirrels level

[ornate tartan]

soon
but not yet

[trim lily]

according to some myths the ushi oni/gyuki could steal your soul if you lock eyes with it

[ornate tartan]

u have to be patient

[frigid gulch]

I’m fine with the Ragnir memes but it gets to a point where you can’t tell if it’s simply memes or actual takes

[cloud adder]

interesting....

[buoyant comet]

He needs to surpass shanks and Imu...

[frigid gulch]

Ragnir ain’t stronger than either of them

[ornate tartan]

he will guaranteed
maybe in the next 2 arcs

[shadow python]

According to what?

[tranquil blade]

Some of it is real, if you ironically say something enough some people will start to say it unironically

[golden valley]

I have Ragnir beating Zoro at max

[ornate tartan]

imu is a toss up tho

[shadow python]

The only information we have is that Harald and the previous kings couldn't get past it

[craggy vapor]

Saturn’s eyes were creepy in the manga 👻

[buoyant comet]

People think BB and Luffy would team up to defeat him/her. I think the idea is far fetched and disgusting tbh.

[shadow python]

Loki himself only gave it an ouchie and at the cost of his main weapon had the fight continued there's no reason to think Loki wins

[ashen perch]

Saturn is again just a strange case, he could actually be stronger than he seemed and the problem really might just be him being incapable of handling Nika's abilities. I disagree on Nusjuro though, he was impressive and it was clearly still far from his full strength.

[ornate tartan]

u can rest easy
the idea is impossible

[golden valley]

I feel like the Harald vs Ragnir statement is just misunderstood or at least, not as clear ppl make it out to be

[frigid gulch]

We don’t know what those encounters were like. How do we know they didn’t give up because they thought the hammer attacking them was a sign of it not accepting them

[ornate tartan]

just a knee jerk reaction from the god valley events

[craggy vapor]

Saturn was mentally nerfed by Vegapunk’s broadcast

[shadow python]

We can assume otherwise but as it stands the simplest explanation is Squirrel > Rocks

[buoyant comet]

Fr they forgot everything that happened in the past and focused on this singular point

[shadow python]

And without evidence to the contrary we should work off that assumption

[ornate tartan]

after rereading the chapter twice this take is absolutely invalid

[tough dust]

i think the way loki defeated ragnir makes harald statement so odd.

[ornate tartan]

and i don’t even like rocks

[ashen perch]

there's going to be more to what makes someone worthy for sure

[frigid gulch]

You’re not gonna have me believe that these guys can’t dodge a farking hammer

[ashen perch]

true

[shadow python]

Loki didn't beat Squirrel he gave her an ouchie

[tough igloo]

they’re coming (not a team-up though)

[golden valley]

Oh, i forgot viz came out today. Lemme read it

[tough dust]

viz does make it sound a lot more better with the whole u gotta be worthy thing

[frigid gulch]

It def is that

[hazy echo]

https://x.com/snugglefloofles/status/2007815959109874044?s=46

Snuggles •COMMS OPEN• (@SnuggleFloofles)

Denjiro if you think about it

X · Jan 4, 2026, 2:06 PM

[frigid gulch]

But you fight Ragnir for that

For the right to eat it

But also it ain’t the case with every fruit

[shadow python]

Harald also still remarks about lower suggesting it was a power deficit that stopped him before

[frigid gulch]

For whatever reason Ragnir and this fruit collaborate

[cloud adder]

raw strength based worthiness it seems like

[frigid gulch]

Other fruits also want to go to users that are befitting of them

That’s just how it is

[craggy vapor]

Harald is a bum. He could have waited until Ragnir falls asleep and eat the fruit

[spice cairn]

Saturn can be on par. His display in Egghead was simply out of underestimating his opponents Ala ego

He clearly is a very strong Gorosei but theres definitely a strength discrepancy within the ranks

[shadow python]

Loki didn't know Squirrel was an animal. Harald probably didn't either. There's no reason for him to think it does sleep

[dapper tree]

I think it was more so he didn't care if he was worthy, he could just take the fruit

[spice cairn]

Its true

[dapper tree]

The respect for tradition is gone

[ashen perch]

yea definitely

[dapper tree]

Like you could beat the squirrel but if the squirrel doesn't like you, you can't take the fruit

[spice cairn]

Like I personally think Nusjuro might be the strongest?

[craggy vapor]

how dare you disrespect the goat

[spice cairn]

Topman definitely is a tough call though on whenever hes stronger

[dapper tree]

harald at this point doesn't care about being worthy

[tough igloo]

we in the final saga now so i’m just gonna chalk everything up to New Gen > Old Gen lol.. we near the end of the story now , it’s about that time anyway

[cloud adder]

what, if you knock out ragnir, what would be stopping you from eating the fruit?

[frigid gulch]

with regen it almost doesn’t matter yea

[shadow python]

Without feets opinions have nothing to stand on

[spice cairn]

Well yeah a new gen supernova probably beats 95% of Rogers/Rocks old crew

[thick mango]

well of course nothing can stand without feet

[dapper tree]

respect for the rules of elbaf, certainly important for any giant

[frigid gulch]

No one is going to let Ragnir attack them normally

Because that’s trouble

But these guys with regen hardly care about being attacked

[spice cairn]

Barring the well known powerhouses of course

[dapper tree]

and giants wouldn't let outsiders try

[shadow python]

The prince of Elbaf didn't even know it was a squirrel

[dapper tree]

But harold doesn't care about that once taken over

[shadow python]

Loki didn't even know the hammer would attack him

[tough igloo]

yep Gorosei also talked about pirates growing stronger since Roger era .. Final Saga of the story would be the perfect time to display that

[ashen perch]

I really dont think the hammer is that strong personally, I think its more like it has to recognize your strength through battle

[frigid gulch]

Although he did also say he was gonna take up Ragnir

[golden valley]

I think it’s a strength thing, the thing is that Harald’s statement doesn’t have to mean it’s not something he could do prior to buff, say like when he ripped off his horns.

We don’t know when Harald tried to take the fruit, it doesn’t really make sense he’d do it in his time as a “Peaceful King”

[spice cairn]

The hammer exists as a limitus test of strength to see if you're worthy.

Thats what I gauged

[dapper tree]

yeah, same here, you don't have to beat the squirrel, it has to respect you or think you worthy for one reason or another

[cloud adder]

so you think Harald could have had a moment like this with Ragnir but instead of hearts its so harald was like "oh my bad, youre saying no, ig ill leave"?

[craggy vapor]

Nusjuro is future Zoro victim, so he is the second strongest Gorosei. The strongest Gorosei is probably the new and improved Garling.

[spice cairn]

Obviously it would be funny if it was unironically stronger than Lucci but that might not be the case

[dapper tree]

pretty much

[golden valley]

Im confident Ragnir beats Lucci’s ass

[dapper tree]

loki and the squirrel fought for some time off screen

[golden valley]

Squirrel > Leopard

[frigid gulch]

Based on what Loki did in the chapter, it’s hard for me to see the likes of Rocks/Harald not being able to do that

[unique lagoon]

whos talking here

[frigid gulch]

It just doesn’t seem that crazy

[spice cairn]

Well barring Garling of course

[tough igloo]

it’ll all be revealed what is what if Oda has Ragnir feel Usopp is worthy and lets him temporarily use it .. then we’ll know if it’s a strength thing or not

[dapper tree]

it's not just about beating ragnir

ragnir has to like you too

[spice cairn]

Yeah you have to give it nuts

[ashen perch]

Theres a bit of distinction there, you dont have to literally win in battle against it, you just have to make it acknowledge your strength

[tough dust]

usopp will not be any where near ragnir

[dapper tree]

yeah

[shadow python]

Loki didn't beat Squirrel he lost his weapon when they clashed and all squirrel got was a headache.

But Loki is known to be good with animals it's possible he didn't need to beat him to win him over

[unique lagoon]

basing on heralds dialog
you can force ragnir
or ragnir just works with you

[golden valley]

Like I said before though, I think Loki was the one who truly one fit for the fruit, not Harald. I think Ragnir saw that

[spice cairn]

I personally think you have to make a dent into Ragnir

Like what we saw with Loki

[golden valley]

And we’ll see when we get back to the present

[dapper tree]

that was the opposite of a dent

[sage temple]

Loki and HK Harald fought for some time off screen

[spice cairn]

An owchie is definitely a dent for a squirrel

[golden valley]

But I think Ragnir knew Loki was a better suit for the fruit than Harald ever was

I think Rocks was wrong

[dapper tree]

duh, it was like all off screen

[sage temple]

Alr

[tough igloo]

yeah i think rocks was just wrong about only Harald being able to eat it

Harald was never gonna be able to eat it with the route he was going imo

[shadow python]

Why would Rocks know about the squirrel trial but not Loki?

[dapper tree]

rocks didn't

[tough igloo]

yeah Rocks didn’t know

he just knew they had a DF

[tough dust]

i think for sure at least u gotta be ancient giant

[dapper tree]

naw

[shadow python]

The fruit Rocks was referring to wasn't even necessarily that one

[dapper tree]

ragnir just has to like you

[frigid gulch]

?

[spice cairn]

Ragnir has to go nuts

[tough igloo]

why wouldn’t it be that one .. he knew one was in elbaf

[shadow python]

I had thought it was a fruit that would let one trivialize the immortality but that doesn't seem to be the case its just a basic power up.

[dapper tree]

yeah, pretty much

[shadow python]

The fruit Rocks wanted might have been the yomi yomi

[dapper tree]

it was a base boost

[frigid gulch]

Rocks wanted two

One of which is this one

Plus I would hold on saying anything just yet

About its capacity to affect immortals

[craggy vapor]

Loki uses 2 devil fruits just like BB

[dapper tree]

ehhh, just going off what I saw

[frigid gulch]

Loki seemed to do basic ass claw attacks

[dapper tree]

I mean, kinda but not the same

[frigid gulch]

It didn’t seem like it countered it I agree

[shadow python]

Gyaban was disappointing in that regard. It's not some secret it's just hit harder

[dapper tree]

yeah just beat his ass

[frigid gulch]

But I don’t think we can say it can’t definitively off of the little we saw

[dapper tree]

well, coc does just beat up immortals

[shadow python]

But Rocks Roger Whitebeard Garp Big Mom and Kaido all hit Imu with the strongest attack we'll ever see. Pure power isn't enough

[dapper tree]

gaben makes the HKs sound worse in the offcial, lol

[tough igloo]

yep you need specific DFs for Imu.

[frigid gulch]

The Bum Knights

[dapper tree]

well regen and they probs didn't all use coc

[shadow python]

And from what we've seen from Loki. This isn't it

[dapper tree]

in the right way anyway

[frigid gulch]

Imu’s case was interesting

[tough igloo]

for Imu minions , just strong CoC haki is enough but for Imu you need that plus the specific DFs

[frigid gulch]

To me it seemed like they slowed down Saturn’s regen

[shadow python]

Though Rocks might not have needed Harald for Imu maybe he just needed him for the ancient giants and intended to get the yomi himself

[frigid gulch]

But Imu’s whole hologram thing reformed

[shadow python]

Still too unclear

[frigid gulch]

Pretty quickly

[dapper tree]

they probs weren't all good enough with coc yet

[frigid gulch]

GV was just Imu mounted on Saturn

[distant vine]

They really got nothing on him bro 💀

[frigid gulch]

So Saturn was affected by the attack

But not Imu

[tough igloo]

yeah i think no matter how strong your haki is if you don’t have the DFs with it then you can’t do anything to hurt Imu

[distant vine]

At a certain point with some characters you gotta go "Yeah I got nothing I cant even hate"

[dapper tree]

naw

[spice cairn]

Its the same meme

[grand flower]

There has to be something else because they can’t just beat on their friends

Rocks almost died

Harald seemingly straight up died

[tough igloo]

haki alone was never the answer for Imu

[spice cairn]

Its PoL

[tough igloo]

you need specific DFs & strong haki to beat Imu

[spice cairn]

Its just that simple

[grand flower]

Yeah POL will def come in

[spice cairn]

Sanji will probably strengthen it during his fight with Sommers as a display

[grand flower]

A lot of love this arc

[spice cairn]

Since Gaban, the missionary of love is able to drastically hurt him as well albeit a bit.

If Sanji isnt notably getting coc, hes getting something a lot stronger.

(Which is PoL)

[dapper tree]

sanji gets both

2 powerups

[spice cairn]

#ItsHappening

[golden valley]

I think a CoC combined attack will weaken Imuko allowing Brook’s music to come in strong to weaken Gunko and Imu’s bond, ultimately freeing them and essentially sending Imu back to Mariejoa

Is this a cook?

[icy wolf]

rocks saying harald isnt agreeing with him because of love still isnt explained

i dont really get it

[dapper tree]

luffy and bonney are gonna start flipping giants

[grand flower]

Loki gave up on love

[solid mantle]

Quick question part 4: Would you rather Sanji gets conquerors or Sanji gets a new power up that lets him fight against the HKs? If it's the latter, what kind of power would it be?

[dapper tree]

it's how we win this arc

[grand flower]

Harald told him he loved him

[dapper tree]

[grand flower]

Sanji will get hao and the power of love

[spice cairn]

Its PoL

We've established it.

[icy wolf]

just conquerors probably

[golden valley]

PoL might be Sanji’s replacement power for this arc until Sanji gets CoC for the next

[icy wolf]

im pretty confident in gaban telling sanji that he has no haki at all cuz its hidden by his germa genes

[spice cairn]

Why even aim for coc when love is stronger than Willpower

[olive sigil]

I’d rather if it’s another thing but I’m sure it will be conquerors

[icy wolf]

if anyone has seen that theory floating about

idk what else he would say that they would need to cut out

[golden valley]

It takes extreme willpower to pursue true love

[dapper tree]

i don't think that is how that workls at all

[spice cairn]

Love is its own emotion entirely

It is absolutely the strongest form of emotion

Its a hurricane, if you will

https://tenor.com/view/seal-clapping-property-of-mello-gif-17743612165590356299

[icy wolf]

wdym

[olive sigil]

Hey look it’s YC

[solid mantle]

[spice cairn]

YC when he claps

[digital spear]

It would be power of love but give him coc too anyway

[olive sigil]

[icy wolf]

sanjis germa suit had invisibility right

[digital spear]

Yes

[olive sigil]

#1447718179307786324

[icy wolf]

makes sense his haki presence would be hidden too

[digital spear]

[solid mantle]

Hey Juan happy new years bro

[spice cairn]

The suit does.

But its probably works differently in that regard compared to the invisible fruit

But you can just say Haki can just cloak it blah blah blah boring sloppa

What a great powersystem

[icy wolf]

i love haki

[solid mantle]

Quick question part 5: What do yall think Luffy's last power up will be?

[icy wolf]

i mean out of the small handful of manga i’ve read op definitely got the best and easiest power system to follow

[dapper tree]

more haki

[dapper tree]

but for real, it's gonna be his own version of dormi

[solid mantle]

I should've said [elaborate]

[golden valley]

Luffy will eat the one piece

[digital spear]

Gear 5.6

[icy wolf]

probably something with the one piece

[red lagoon]

Power of love

[dapper tree]

luffy can make worriors the opposite of what imu can, that can spread. Ex, my going theory is Luffy and bonney will flip the giants this arc

[icy wolf]

i dont think we will get gear 5 spreading to more people

[dapper tree]

it will

[icy wolf]

since they’re going for this domi reversi gimmick the white parts are already just regular people

the black pieces are the ones imu controls

[dapper tree]

if pieces can be flipped to black, they can be flipped to white

[ashen perch]

final gear