manga-theories

[ruby depot]

i hate he posted something crazy in here now i cant talk about nothing

[rose vale]

people think that shanks and maniko's kid right

[near osprey]

Shank's is clearly Kidd's dad

jk obviously but wouldn't be surprised.

[rose vale]

and i think that luffy will eventually pass down the straw hat to that kid

[rose vale]

yo i never thought abt that lmaoo

[near osprey]

I think he'd pass it onto his own child.

[rose vale]

well idk its just a random thought lol

[near osprey]

All good

You could be right who knows.

Luffy might end up just passing it on to some random kid later on

Roger passed it onto Shanks and Shanks passed it onto Luffy I'd imagine one day Luffy would pass it onto someone else.

[ruby depot]

so what if joyboy was a giant waiting to be reincarnted to a smaller person becasue he was so big

[near osprey]

But then again I'd imagine by the end of OP Luffy is going to change the entire world so pirating would have an entirely different definition

[vivid forum]

yeah I think he'll make nami's dream of actually mapping the whole world viable, which, it really doesn't seem to be right now

maybe there will be less ocean when he's done

[near osprey]

Nah everyone definitely will achieve their individual goals

I personally believe that entire Islands will be moved and interconnected with one another by the end.

[ruby depot]

do you think the will of d users could be similar to the seven knights templar fourth crusade

[woven moth]

Pangeae?

[near osprey]

Considering at one point in time there were Continental Pullers

That's where the All Blue comes in.

The Red Line is destroyed or falls and all of Blues are connected finally creating the All Blue and Laboom is back with his flock

[ruby depot]

so only those who hear the voice of all things are really meant to find laugh tale its meant for them

[near osprey]

Nahh I wouldn't say that, but it definitely gives you an advantage

Since Sea Kings are incredibly old creatures who know all the secrets

and they most likely communicate on the languages found on Poneglyphs as Roger had a knack for deciphering them

[ruby depot]

the sea kings only know of their king and still know very little about why they king is in the form of merfolk

[near osprey]

It's old promises they made with JoyBoy

and Queen* as Neptune can only be a female mermaid it seems

[ruby depot]

rox had to been able to use the voice of all things too and similar to mad scientist i think the rox pirates did not know all the information the other memebers in the group knew out of pure hate for one another and wanting to compete rox knows as he most likely was following the voice of all things and convince the others he was just after money for them while it was the poloyghen

[near osprey]

I imagine they learned most of their info from Xebec

Like how Kaido knows about JoyBoy

[sharp oracle]

theory: The people with the initial D are all descendent’s of joyboy’s crew mates, thats why they all are from different races and have nothing in common other than their initial ‘D’ and they all wear strawhats. the gaint strawhat in marijoes is not joyboy’s hat but it’s one of his crew mate’s(gaint) hat And all of the chamber’s that are shown in that panel are filled with other members strawhat and IMU is collecting all of it to stop the ‘inheriting the will’ thing. the only strawhat that is missing in that collection is joyboy’s hat.

[formal quest]

Oda be like..."I gotta change my story now"

[solid badger]

Other than saul all who had D were normal humans so to say

[limber zinc]

Saul said that everyone in his family also had a d

[sharp oracle]

Yeah that’s because it’s an regular human crew with one or two exceptions if later in the story if we find some fishman with the D then this will even make more sense.

[pure raven]

This makes complete sense https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/rfjrqi/why_spoilers_is_insanely_durable_against_slashes/

[copper frost]

This seems plausible and kinda makes sense as to what Zoro getting the ability to use CoCting attacks is for, it's for inflicting damage that is long lasting and for King to not be able to cope with the damage those attacks from Zoro will cause on him

[pure raven]

If king is able to cauterize all his wounds that fast I could see the solution zoro comes up with to defeat him is to cut him so many times at once that he can’t recuperate .

Or fast successive cuts

Zoro cuts king > king focuses on cauterizing wounds > zoro cuts again until it starts adding up

[grizzled fog]

i think foxfire style is definitely gonna play a part in it. if the cauterization theory is true maybe he cuts the fire and that gives him a window where he can land hits on king?

and i guess with conqueror's coating his attacks will wound king deep enough that just cauterizing the wound won't mitigate the damage much

[wary fossil]

IMO it’s leading up to a sunachi leveked up onigiri but he also hasn’t used sanzen sekai against King either

[pure raven]

what does that even mean

[low swallow]

I'm guessing he means that Zoro screams sunnachi and beats king with an oni giri

[wary fossil]

Last chapter he throwbacked to learning about sunachi and then conq coated all of his swords. He’s still technically damaged from fighting apoo, so he’s probably gonna go all out to prove to enma he is worth it

He’s been holding back because enma drains too much haki

[jagged elbow]

Prediction when the leak will happen

[pure raven]

2 hours

[manic relic]

Today

13 hours

[split glacier]

Imagine reading leaks...

[muted valley]

I thought it was stated or hinted that once you get to the final island on the grandline roadstar(or w.e. it was called)it becomes obvious that there is 1 more island and that there is info about it there, like joyboy.

[muted valley]

I think you're close but it wasn't joyboys crew rather the laugh tales people. As pirate in Japanese can be read as sea race. So a island with every race of pirates.

[abstract pond]

The island name is Lonestar iirc. And the hint of another island that Roger said was the log pose getting wild.

[amber oar]

Lodestar

[silver sun]

did you know that shanks knows where is one piece

he is only trying to protect the legacy

[stable cradle]

guys i think OP will end 2025/26, Gomu

[silver sun]

true

[silver sun]

can be 2030 as well

[stable cradle]

foresgadowing for luffys number

[silver sun]

or entill oda dies

[split glacier]

Chill

[abstract pond]

Random thought I had today. Is there any theory about different races controlling different elements?
So far we had water (gyojins), lighting (minks) and fire (lunarians).

[muted valley]

If it was 2056 I'd be with you. But 25/26 I don't see it. But that prolly is around when it ends

[split glacier]

Wano started in July 2018 and it's probably gonna end July 2022. We gonna get some very short arcs in comparison then

[muted valley]

Then final arc

I forget, is japanese theater 4 arcs?

I forget the name of the one, but I always assumed Wano is going to based on it. As the style is a tragedy kind

[split glacier]

It can be 3, 4 or 5 but i think it's just gonna be 3 with how this is meant to resemble a certain samurai movie.

Drake dying might be the tragedy seeing as he's 1% man

[muted valley]

Which samurai movie..?

We don't know who the 1% man is for sure.

But it does hint it may be drake from Hawkins saying it to him. Then drake getting ganged up on after

[split glacier]

Seven Samurai

[muted valley]

Kabuki play is what I'm thinking of

[split glacier]

The anime outright says it lol

[muted valley]

And it's 5 acts normally

I don't watch the anime

[split glacier]

Welp, that's what is said in the episode.

[muted valley]

Which ep?

[split glacier]

The latest one

[muted valley]

I saw the og black and white. 7 samurai back in May. I can see it with SH helping wano.

Oh boy... if that's the case it may mean Yamato dies later on.

Or a SH, but I see more parallels with Yamato

You seen the original film?

[split glacier]

Not to mention Hiyori playing the Shimasen that could possible signal the end of the last act. Starts with a Shimasen being played and ends with one i believe.

[split glacier]

Nope ._. But it doesn't have to follow everything exactly otherwise it's a little too "copy and paste"

[muted valley]

But yeah, I see how it relates to it. Samurai get asked to help prevent a village from bandits.

Well there's a certain character in the samurai who dies

And he isn't actually a samurai, but keeps acting like he is one. Where all the other ones allow him to help and act like he is one. As he holds ties to the similarities of what they are protecting.

It's a really good movie though, it's very much like old westerns.

[split glacier]

Could be her i guess or Oda could've throw the Drake switcheroo to link into the same ideals thing. He's on their side

[muted valley]

Yamato mimics him way more than anyone else. To the point of having paperwork to "prove" he is one. But it's actually from someone else.

[split glacier]

Someone to die to who is important but not too important then links back in with Sword, Colby and the Goverment so eventually it's Sword, SH, the alliance vs the CD, CP0 and the "evil" side of the WG/Marines

I ain't seen it so i'll take your word but like i said it doesn't have to be 1 for 1.

[muted valley]

I think we're going to see a couple ppl die, but I also think it might have Robin kidnapped as well.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm just saying in the movie there are alot of character parallels. But wano is very loosely related to the film.

All the film is people from a village go outside their village to recruit samurai to protect their village from the bandits who are extorting their village. So the samurai help defend the village and drive away the bandits.

[split glacier]

Yeah, i've seen a sort of review so i know some of similarities.

[muted valley]

But it didn't occur till you said it was based on it.

But I do think Wano arc is a kabuki play. Wanos Acts ended on the same themes.

But the last 2 acts are really fast

Has a very interesting rising action, climax, and conclusion.

[split glacier]

We'll see what mystery man Oda does~ There's plenty of stories that link to OP if you look hard enough

[muted valley]

Yeah for sure

He's been waiting on wano and is his favorite arc he wanted to do irc

[split glacier]

What is the meant to be? The last 4 arcs?

[muted valley]

It was right at the end of Dressrossa and was the outline drafts for his arcs

If I recall correctly

[split glacier]

And that dragon is meant to Monkey D Dragon related and not Kaido related? Or do you mean "4" is the Revolutionary arc?

[muted valley]

Idk jap tbh but that is important to it. I was told it was rev

[muted valley]

There is 1 thing with OP that has been annoying me with Wano.

We saw that Nekomushi and inurashi were apart of Odens attack on Kaido. All stars were there too. So when Jack went to Zou he had to realize those 2 were the same from Wano 20 years prior. But it seems he didn't know..?

[carmine snow]

i think queen is a rapist

not queen i mean orochi

[abstract pond]

Wasn't Jack like a small kid by then? was already with Kaido?

[muted valley]

We saw his silhouette during the battle

Jack apparently was there and he was a kid

[weak arrow]

We don’t know if that is our Jack or a previous Jack

[muted valley]

He's 28

[weak arrow]

It’s most likely a previous Jack.

It also goes in with their system of replacement, letting us know that it does actually happen, not that we’ve had the same all stars for 20 years

[muted valley]

That's clearly his silhouette

[abstract pond]

I doubt Jack with 8 years was that silhouette

[muted valley]

He isn't human, he's a fishman

[weak arrow]

That doesn’t have to be him

[abstract pond]

Doesn't fishman age like humans?

[weak arrow]

It also goes along with him not recognizing Neko and inu. Jack was also noticeably excluded from the scabbard vs Kaido and forces fight

[muted valley]

From his vivre card, he was there and was 8

[weak arrow]

Doesn’t mean he was an all star at 8

That’s your preconceived notions clouding your ability to judge

He was 8 years old and wouldn’t look like that.
He wasn’t shown in the fight with Kaido and the scabbards like queen and king were.
He didn’t recognize nekomamushi and inu.

[abstract pond]

Jack was most likely with Yamato wherever the kids were left while battle happens

[velvet edge]

I think it’s Pizarro. Similar hair on the side, the horns which is the usual attire for beast pirates

It’s a long shot but I think it’s possible

[muted valley]

The silhouette has the wierd bowl cut

[woven moth]

So is Pizarro possibly an Oni like Kaido, or is he another of those horns for show guys? He was a tyrant king, yea

[weak arrow]

Just horns for show

But yeah, 0.1% it’s Jack and I’d say like 40% chance it’s Pizarro

Pizarro’s epithet makes me wary of it being him, but hiding him away for later till he becomes more relevant is an Oda thing to do

[sand sail]

It's much more likely to be Jack than Pizarro, but there's always the possibility. Strange to think one of Kaido's guys got sent to Impel Down without him getting the guy back

But also, not much chance to be Pizarro because he was a King and taken down for his cruelty

He was a king from the North Blue, not even the Grand Line

[weak arrow]

They failed to get doflamingo back

[sand sail]

Doflamingo isn't a crewmate

[weak arrow]

Yeah, someone that’s more important than any crew mate

[sand sail]

He really wasn't, he was just a convenient business partner

To the point where he felt his mistakes would earn Kaido killing him over saving him ever, that should speak for itself

[split glacier]

I always thought he was with Kaido, knew him in the earlier days or something at some point with the title of "Corrupt King" and the (fake?) horns. Jack, Queen and King aren't their "real" names. I find it weird he just happened to stumble across guys with names like that and thought "Yeah, imma make a crew like a pack of cards" lol. Probably isn't but the moment i saw him, you couldn't help but think some Kaido relation/history

[weak arrow]

The point remains that they failed to retrieve him, just like they could have failed to retrieve an Allstar. It could also have been that Jack beat him out as an Allstar, so he left the crew and later got captured and sent to impel down

The main point is that silhouette isnt jack for many reasons

[split glacier]

Maybe Kaido saw him getting caught by the government/marines a sign of weakness and not being worthy anyways. Kaido is a Rocks boy so he's not that sentimental when it comes "weakness"...unless you are Jack getting whooped by Catdog.

[split glacier]

That's one big ass 8 year old if it was lol

[sand sail]

But your point was comparing a business partner to an actual handpicked, apparently deeply valued member of the crew. The point kinda crumbles

But the only reason the silhouette wouldn't be Jack is solely because of his age, and just about nothing else there

It could be Pizarro, but the whole ruling a kingdom in North Blue kinda spoils it

[frozen roost]

Could kings clothes be queens version of a raid suit

[weak arrow]

So why didn’t he recognize Neko and inu as scabbards? They look the same.
Why did Oda not show Jack during the fight, not even silhouetted like king and queen

[split glacier]

no lol.

[sand sail]

Not showing Jack isn't really a point against it, but sure, not recognizing Inuarashi or Nekomamushi can be indicative of Jack not being there. Or, he just wouldn't remember two random animals in a kingdom of animals after 20 years of conquest

Iirc, none of the scabbards are really recognized except Ashura Douji by Kaido directly

[weak arrow]

Kaido recognized Kanjuro

There’s no reason Jack wouldn’t recognize them unless he wasn’t the Jack back then.

[frozen roost]

Jack is ruthless I doubt he would even bother to remember people who arent his allies

[harsh niche]

okay so what the fuck are these

somebody explain

[sand sail]

Or, an enemy from when he was 8 didn't stand out

It doesn't necessarily have to be Jack, don't get me wrong. But it's a bit absurd saying there's a better chance of it being a guy from an entirely different part of the sea who got thrown in Impel Down after losing his kingdom

[vapid minnow]

Hmmm? They look similar, especially the hairstyle. Maybe a stretch but it’s funny Imu is suddenly targeting Vivi as well. Makes you wonder

[frozen roost]

Isnt that her mom

[vapid minnow]

yeah exactly

[frozen roost]

The 2nd image

[abstract pond]

My theory is that that's what left of God Valley

[split glacier]

Wouldn't say it's "suddenly", Alabasta Kingdom as been a problem ever since they didn't join the other families on top the Redline. And a lot of the "normal" women look the same lol. Just another light to extinguish~

[frozen roost]

What abbout the red dots

[split glacier]

They're meant to be glowing eyes. I don't think big ass monsters like there were just roaming around on God'sValley. They look bigger than God's Valley

[harsh niche]

yeah i dont think the island we say in that flashback had red eyes tho

[vapid minnow]

well yes Alabasta has been a thorn in the WG’s side since leaving. I do think that this woman in Kuma’s bible is Vivi’s mom or a distant relative because the facial structure and hairstyle is identical just look at how the hair layers together, the size of the forehead, and the pointy chin. What’s even more interesting about this is because IF Kuma, Sabo, & Vivi had some encounter then Vivi’s resemblance to the bible woman would give Kuma more reasons to protect her.

[abstract pond]

It could not be eyes. And be some kind of light

[harsh niche]

like a lighthouse?

[abstract pond]

Maybe

We don't really know shit about God Valley. But feels like it was important.

[split glacier]

I think God Valley is probably the "Emerald City" mentioned ages ago which looks very similar to the Ancient Kingdom. Oda is a big Wizard of Oz fan too apparently. The City of Gold existed so why not that? But whooooo knowsssssss

[tardy osprey]

Damn they look alot alike

[wary fossil]

god valley being emerald city is pretty popular theory, especially now since we're nearing the end of the grand line and haven't come across it yet

[cyan berry]

This world's equivalent of the Bermuda Triangle, they're supposed to be mysterious so I highly doubt they'll ever get an explanation

[harsh niche]

i doubt its bad writing like that

you dont introduce shit you never explain usually. and odas better than that

[wary fossil]

that's not bad writing. It's a common thing in horror movies

makes sense for a place named thriller bark, which is very horror inspired

[split glacier]

Not every single thing in world has to be fully detailed out

[harsh niche]

bro its not just "a thing in the world" its something that got an ominous lingering shot

[muted ember]

I'm pretty sure it will be explained it was a pretty big cliffhanger at the end of the arc

Oda could have left it out and the story of thriller bark wouldn't change

[harsh niche]

exactly

[cyan berry]

It wouldn't change but how would knowing what it was help now

It's only at the Florian Triangle where Thriller Bark was

A point behind the New World

We are never going to return there anyway

[muted ember]

You don't know that

[cyan berry]

Yes I do

Tell me a single reason to why we might return to Thriller Bark

Remember that Thriller Bark was the ship

[muted ember]

To get the ship

[cyan berry]

The ship Moria used to go to Beehive

So its not at thr Florian Triangle anymore

Meaning the monsters are even less relevant

[muted ember]

Did he use thriller bark?

[frozen roost]

What's beehive

[muted ember]

The island Blackbeard is on

[split glacier]

Those monsters or w/e are meant to be "umibōzu, enormous sea monsters said to drown sailors." That's the idea it's based off so whether we find out about is still a mystery

[cyan berry]

Yes Tray

[sturdy lantern]

The only reason I can see Thriller Bark making a comeback is for maybe a ship that can hold Sanjuan Wolf without breaking, but they clearly got to Hachinosu without needing it, so it's not very likely

[cyan berry]

We see Thriller Bark just outside Beehive

[muted ember]

No omibozou is the dude Sanji fought in FMI

[frozen roost]

When

[split glacier]

Dunno who that is but a simple google of the word will give you the answer.

[cyan berry]

I forget the chapter but it's when Moria goes to Blackbeard to find Absalom

[sturdy lantern]

925, I believe

[cyan berry]

Probably

[muted ember]

Wadatsumi

He literally got called what u just said

[tardy osprey]

Yo can I drop the theory

[cyan berry]

Wadatsumi is his name

Umibozu is a Japanese monster

Which is what Usopp calls Wadatsumi

[tardy osprey]

I have a speculation on MADS and SWORD.

I don't think the creator of SWORD is garp or sengoku

I Don think the creator of MADs
Is Vegapunk or any of the other guys.

My reasoning for this is because I said so... lmao I'm capping

Basically the leader of all the major groups embodies the core aspects of each group more than anyone.

Luffy for the strawhats
Big mom for the bm pirates
Dragon for the revs
Kaidou for the bb pirates

No one is more beast like than kaidou. No is more revolutionary obsessed than dragon. No one loves sweets more than big mom.
No one is bigger dreamer than luffy.

To identify the creator of both sword and MADs

You have to look at the members.

Firstly MADs

Vegapunk, judge and ceaser, Queen and potentially Lindbergh.

Queen is obsessed with dangerous mechanical and chemical weapons and science

Vegapunk is a bit grey. Vegapunk also likes to use his technology to help people and enjoys creating dangerous weapons and df tech.

Judge likes weaponry and military science. Ceaser is a walmart Queen. Lindbergh is invention obsessed and seems to like freedom in creation I mean his in the revs for a reason.

So the creator of MADS embodies all of this.

He loves dangerous chemical and mechanical weaponry. He loves freedom of creation and obsessed with inventing. He is true genius like Vegapunk. And he is crazy.

This means the creator can't be Vegapunk as he would not be able to get Queen to work under him or judge.

[split glacier]

Okay so? I'm saying the glowing eyed monsters are/could be based of the idea of them

[split glacier]

You made the twice as long as it needs to be with all the line spacing lol.

[tardy osprey]

My bad bro

It just makes shit flow

[muted ember]

They look nothing like Wadatsumi tho who seems to be the OP reference to it imo

[split glacier]

Do they all have to look exactly the same? If it's fishmen related then we know how different they all can look. It's either monsters or islands with flashing red lights or nothing important at all.

[sand sail]

Sword wouldn't have been created by Garp or Sengoku

Sengoku seemed to be in it at one point

[split glacier]

Kuzan?

[sand sail]

Absolutely not lol

[split glacier]

Who do you think then?

[sand sail]

Probably no one that we know

I doubt it would be Sengoku, he was in it as an admiral. Can't be Garp, that's just not something he'd do

[night jewel]

possibly even drake himself lol

[sand sail]

Kuzan absolutely not if it's not those two

Like, Kong is the most likely choice of the marines we know, but that's assuming it hasn't been around for terribly long

[night jewel]

he is the leader after all, could have been the one who presented the idea in the first place

and founded it

[muted ember]

No, but that's a big if since those things eclipse any Fishman we've seen including Wadatsumi himself imo

[night jewel]

kong is also a good option yea

[sand sail]

Nah, we see Corazon and Sengoku in it back when Drake's a pirate kid

[night jewel]

well corazon isnt confirmed to be part of SWORD, we dont really know if it existed back then

[sand sail]

It's not directly confirmed, but he had the same function with the same codeword conversation as Drake and Koby do

[night jewel]

yea true

[sand sail]

It seems to be the case there

[split glacier]

I mean that big ass skull in Onigashima isn't just decoration 👀

[sand sail]

But it probably is tho

[night jewel]

oh i forgot that Drake is raised by Sengoku himself, according to his vivre cards

[sand sail]

like there are mountains on it i'm js

Oh is that right?

I hadn't read that

[night jewel]

yeah i think so, let me find the source

[split glacier]

Sengoku raised Drake, Garp raised Kuzan

[night jewel]

#manga message

its here

Sengoku did not just take care of Corazon like a father, but he also did so for Drake after he fleed his father's crew.

[sand sail]

Ah, that's nice, he must be the one who put him into Sword I'd guess then

[night jewel]

yeah that'd make sense

[tardy osprey]

The creator of sword isn't kong

The creator would have to embody the core aspects of SWORD.

So the creator would have had to be in the perfect combination of heroism/pure hearted and sharp cunning/undercover

Basically unless you got panels saying that any of these 3 guys was an undercover agent it isn't any of them

If the undercover shit didn't exist. Then I would I say it was a collaboration

But since it does it was definitely an individual

[sand sail]

Why would the creator have to embody the core aspects?

It's a government group

[split glacier]

It's someone old. I didn't know it was around back when Law was with Corazon. Drake is the/a "captain" of them tho but doubt he was the captain when he was 6 lol

[tardy osprey]

Sorry I'll stop talking your right master

[sand sail]

It's a shame he's the one who brought up the topic, but the creator of Sword could be someone like Kong. Maybe even the previous Commander in Chief?

[sand sail]

It's more an assumption based on what we saw between Sengoku and Corazon, to be fair

So it might be incorrect and Sword could be more recent, which is a fair thing to bring up

[split glacier]

So then it could be Kuzan? 👀

[sand sail]

Could be, but I doubt it because of the Sengoku thing

[ancient vault]

I doubt it heavily

Hes not a current member thats pretty clear by his monologue in PH. But ig the creator is possible but I dont see it

[bitter kraken]

The head of sword is prolly Kuzan leading it from the shadows

And he prolly has recruited smoker into it now, since we saw smoky will ally with pirates for the greater good like he did with law to take our vergo. Drake allying with the straw hats and Coby is a luffy fan boy, that seems to the a requirement for sword to be able to put position aside for the greater good

[ancient vault]

I just said if you read the monologue its very clear he is independent and not associated with the Navy nor WG

Also Akainu must have access to sword as well

[bitter kraken]

We don’t know that he is really out of the navy, I said he runs it from the shadows like a shadow organization ya kno?

[ancient vault]

I just told u we do. Read his monologue in PH. He has no reason to lie. He said multiple times hes independent and not associated with the Navy or WG anymore

[bitter kraken]

Actually I like garp to run it more since he is the most notable case of a marine allying with pirates like he did with roger

[weak arrow]

Aokiji’s speech is pretty clear that he isn’t apart of the WG in any shape or form anymore. Even assuming he’s lying to Smoker (which I doubt, this moment was more showing Aokiji’s character) , he certainly wouldn’t have recruited him.

[bitter kraken]

Yeah you’re right, I don’t think oda woulda made Kuzan a double double super secret agent but smoker would fit into sword I think

[split glacier]

You think he's TRULY with Blackbeard tho? Or maybe he didn't wanna get hunted down for his fruit and yoinked

[weak arrow]

No I don’t think he is

[split glacier]

Any chance of being Revolutionary Army linked? I just find it weird he's teaming up with BB and that's it.

[ancient vault]

Hes allied with them. Could be a simple business deal

[abstract pond]

Isn't SWORD a Marine secret force and not a WG? I mean, they may not get the orders from the WG. After Akainu and Aokiji duel they could have agreed on Aokiji leaving the marines but helping with leading a secret force. Akainu doesn't look fond on the WG either.

[ancient vault]

The WG knows about sword. That was just revealed some chapters ago by CP0

[abstract pond]

That doesn't change anything.

[grizzled fog]

They’re part of the marines and that makes them part of the world government

[ancient vault]

Basically what vemqi said. The only way it would change anything is if youre saying theyre a secret marine group that works against the WG orders behind their back.
But cp0 already knows about sword so that doesnt really work

[abstract pond]

They can know about sword but they could not know everything about sword

[wary fossil]

cp0 knowing about sword wouldn't invalidate them being a secret marine group that the wg knows about

[abstract pond]

CP0 are like the top spies, they should at least know about most stuff that happens

[ancient vault]

it wouldnt. Itd support it. But it wouldnt make it a ONLY marine force because the marines are owned by the WG

[wary fossil]

if the admin of this discord used the mods of the discord to find out what the subreddit mods were secretly doing in discord, that wouldn't make what the subreddit mods were secretly doing in discord an act of the admins, even though all belong to the discord and therefore under the admins

[ancient vault]

They know about the existence of sword and can most likely just ask details about this group within their ranks

[ancient vault]

lol my point is its not secret if its owned by the WG themselves and the WG can simply demand details if they want to.

[wary fossil]

they aren't necessarily owned by the wg

they fall under wg jurisdiction, but so do many pirates as they start out in countries under wg control

[ancient vault]

They are part of the WG and Cp0 ranks higher than most marine ranks. Idk about admiral and fleet admiral but I'd imagine even them since they directly work for the WG and CD.

Admirals work directly for the Celestial Dragons.
Fleet Admirals have to listen to commands directly from the higher ups. The Marines are simply the military force of the WG

[wary fossil]

for example, the wg could've demanded that garp give up the son of roger. Just because Garp is under the jurisdiction of the WG/Marines/whatever doesn't mean he would've automatically done as they say

[abstract pond]

And the Marines could be hiding/lying about sword. Like for example saying Akainu gives the orders to them but the reality could be Aokiji doing it and the WG not knowing

[ancient vault]

Thats a stupid argument what

Garp rebelling has nothing to do with it

[wary fossil]

bruh what is stupid is you standing on this hill when you don't even know the full details of it all. We're literally just explaining to you one possibility

[ancient vault]

My point is fairly simple and straight up.
The Marines are the military force of the World Government. They are directly owned by the WG and they have to do as the WG says proven multiple times in the manga. Even by the Gorosei themselves.

Your argument of "Garp wouldnt do so" is flawed.
Personal rebellion and refusal has nothing to do with owning a task force. Anyone within that task force HAS to do what they say. They are obligated to do so. Its their duty. But obviously you cannot force anyone to do anything. If they refuse to do so they will get kicked out and you know why? Because the WG owns the marines and control them.

NOW GARP IS AN EXCEPTION and that was said in the manga as well. The only reason why he hasnt been kicked out yet is because Garp upholds the image of the marines which is simply a kind of "marketing" decision ig you could call it. If garp wasnt "The Hero of the Marines" he'd be gone in no time. I can pull up panels of this being said if you want to.

[abstract pond]

But if members of sword aren't oficial members of the marines (like Kuzan) then they don't have to answer anything the WG ask.

[ancient vault]

Read all of this.
Kuzan is not part of the marines anymore.

1. He says multiple times that he is not affiliated with the navy or WG anymore nor does he think they are the end all. He doesnt need them to fullfill his goal (whatever that is)

2. If he were still working for the marines he wouldve contacted akainu directly to warn him. But when smoker asks him what hes doing here he tells him he was looking for him. He came all the way to Punk Hazard to give Smoker a message (warning) to akainu.

Its not logical that hes part of the marines still

Even if we assume that hes lying to Smoker for whatever reason (which I dont see since this seems like a character moment for kuzan even doffy comments on it as if it is) then the second point still stands.

[abstract pond]

Anything of what Kuzan said there negates what we are telling you

[split glacier]

It was "fate" Kuzan was there? D member confirmed lol.

[weak arrow]

Likely wasn't fate. He probably saw the broadcast and saw smoker was in trouble.

[ancient vault]

what exactly are you telling me lol

and what does it negate

[ancient vault]

This is basically said when they hint at him having underworld connections

[abstract pond]

It negates nothing

[ancient vault]

what

[abstract pond]

If you don't understand what we are telling you then you should reread this conversation

[ancient vault]

reread your message lol. What is it negating? Wdym nothing?

[abstract pond]

That what you posted doesn't negate what we are telling you.

Is not a counter argument for our point

[ancient vault]

it is. You just said Kuzan is part of sword

[abstract pond]

Xddddd

[ancient vault]

Great job making no points lol

[weak arrow]

So basically we can all agree Kuzan is not apart of sword. But the disagreement is whether or not the WG know sword's true goal, which is something Anti-government?

[ancient vault]

He isnt. He thinks Kuzan is part of sword

[abstract pond]

It's funny because is the second time I talk with you and it's the second time you got lost in the conversation.

[wary fossil]

the disagreement is that sword is possibly not controlled by the wg. swrml believes that because it is a marines force, it is therefore a wg force. Bucanero and I believe that it is possibly not a wg force as it could've been created by the marines but hidden as it may be a anti-wg force

[ancient vault]

make a point then

[wary fossil]

it's a dumb thing to continue arguing about because they're both possibilities and we don't know enough to be that firm about it

[weak arrow]

Well it's clearly not that hidden since CP0 and the gorosei know about it.

[abstract pond]

I already did. And Tony Tony just said it again.

[wary fossil]

cp0 knows a lot though. They've even infiltrated Wano, which is an isolated country

[weak arrow]

If that was the point of sword, it already failed its identity

[abstract pond]

Knows the existence of it but they could not know the full of it.

[ancient vault]

If they know members of it they know details

[wary fossil]

just because it failed doesn't mean it was created that way

[abstract pond]

Knows the existence of it but they could not know the full of it.

[ancient vault]

Knowing the existence of a secret group and knowing its members are two very different things tho

[abstract pond]

Lmao

[vivid forum]

sometimes reading these theories I feel like I should have been taking notes on one piece as I read it

[weak arrow]

Well, if they figured out sword exists, and they shouldnt know it exists, it means CP0/gorosei know about an anti-government faction and at least 1 member, neutering sword's ability to do it's "real job" of being Anti-WG

it means some topdog marine is hiding something and it wont be hard to figure out who it is

[ancient vault]

lmaoing your way out of your bad arguments is not gonna work man

The way cp0 speaks so confidently about this topic could very well imply that they have been known for long

[wary fossil]

not necessarily as there are politics involved so it wouldn't be the simplest thing to do. That's why secret factions like cipher pol and sword exist

[ancient vault]

But it could just be figure of speech as well

[abstract pond]

Or sword didn't hide it from them but hide important details so the WG doesn't close it.

[ancient vault]

whos orsword

oh wait or sword lol this threw me off

[abstract pond]

They could still not know the full extent of SWORD.

[ancient vault]

What part of his message exactly are you responding to? Whats the "not necessarily" meant for

[abstract pond]

If the WG saw marines having a secret force without telling them they would probably act against them but if sword let them know a bit without really telling them what the real purpose/leader/members are...

[wary fossil]

I don't have time to continue this convo. I gotta leave in 8 min. My point is that these are possibilities. It's silly to argue otherwise.

arguing whether sword is under wg control or not or whether the monsters in the florian triangle are important or not is silly without other overarching theories to talk about

[ancient vault]

And why exactly would the WG allow that? Why would the WG allow them to not disclose details?

Especially details of purpose, leader and members

[weak arrow]

Well this i can see Bucanero's point. They're giving the WG a surface-level viewpoint of the organization so that they don't delve deeper and find out their true cause

[abstract pond]

They would be HIDING those details. WG can't demand to disclose details they don't know exist.

[split glacier]

The secret organisation has more secrets is basically what you mean. You give enough information so it doesn't seem too shady but even deeper there's secrets only a few know you mean?

[abstract pond]

Yes

[ancient vault]

Youre saying they would let them know a bit.

If they let them know a bit the least they can tell them is "we got a secret force" and at that moment your idea falls apart because why exactly would the WG allow them to actively disclose information from them?

[abstract pond]

And for example saying the leader is Akainu when the real is another person.

[split glacier]

It's not not possible lol. Stories have done that before

[ancient vault]

Thats actively lying then

[weak arrow]

They'd let them know they have members hidden within pirate crews, not that they're also an anti-WG organization. The anti-WG part would be a secret

[abstract pond]

Exactly. That's the whole point.
It's a SECRET force.

They could just give fake but credible information.

[vivid forum]

wait, is it established this group is anti-wg? my read of the whole thing with cp0 was that they just discovered something they weren't supposed to know

[weak arrow]

the theory here is that they're anti-wg. There's no confirmation yet

[vivid forum]

oh, okay, thanks!

[ancient vault]

Oh nah thats not my point. He was saying they'd hide the names of their members. Lets say the lie. They still found out about drake and that very confidently it seems so I wouldnt be surprise if they know more but i can agree thats mostly headcanon.

If they already found out that they lied to them since they know drake is a member then why trust them further? Why let them exist further?

[abstract pond]

No no, we are saying it's a possibility. That they are independent of the WG. Oda hasn't told much of SWORD to know the truth.

[split glacier]

Not enough info on either side to prove or disprove so just move on?

[abstract pond]

You are assuming that would have lied about Drake. I never they have to say all lies. Just a bit.

[abstract pond]

We are saying it's a possibility but swrml saying it's impossible simply because the Marines are part of the WG.

[ancient vault]

Now we're just speculating very detailed. If we go like that it finds no end cause you can just make up stuff to every doubt I present

[abstract pond]

Lmao

[split glacier]

There's like 3 panels of SWORD, lets just move on lol

[abstract pond]

Time to leave I guess. It's like talking with a brick wall with memory problems

[ancient vault]

im not saying youre wrong with the made up stuff. It just finds no end

[ancient vault]

Yeah well you cant really prove any point you made. I was playing devils advocate to your speculations

[abstract pond]

Xddddddd

[ancient vault]

We've had sth similar with Tequilla wolf where you presented no actual argument aside form "it connects" various islands and when I played devils advocate you bailed lol

[abstract pond]

Hahahahahahah

[ancient vault]

[abstract pond]

2 out of 2 times talked with you. You forgot what we were talking and keep going out of stubbornness.

[ancient vault]

I didnt. You made no actual points

[abstract pond]

Xddddddd

See?

[ancient vault]

I'll ignore this discussion because this is simply speculative and ig its as much possible as my side is. The last time I directly offered you present an argument with evidence and you didnt. When I had an idea for your side I showed you it but you got angry and left lol

Calling me "condenscending"

[abstract pond]

Lmao, it's like a deja vu.
That you forget half the messages in this chat doesn't mean I'm not making a point.

[ancient vault]

I asked you to post it again lol
I was talking to you and earl at the same time

[abstract pond]

Okay I'll make it short.
Our point was: sword could be independent of the wg in the shadows

[ancient vault]

I already know that now since you said that later towards the end of this discussion. I was just saying I asked you before that when you started calling me out to post it

[muted ember]

They can't really be independent if they're Marines tho they're inherently tied to the government

[ancient vault]

Tray read the chat a bit

[vivid forum]

I mean, a theory that they could be a mole faction inside the marines isn't outlandish

[ancient vault]

His counter was that they let the WG know about a secret force that infiltrates pirate crews but lies about their details such as leader, member and purpose (which they said is ANTI WG I think)

[ancient vault]

But theyre "mole"-ing pirate crews not the WG

[vivid forum]

doesn't mean their purpose can't be overall anti-wg or pirate sympathizers

not enough info one way or another so this conversation can't really go any further

[ancient vault]

@muted ember I said why would the WG allow them to hide details such as that to which he responded they lie about it.
When I said but they already know about drake. He said they could lie to the WG partly. Tell them part truth part lie.

To which I said that this is just ending in simple speculations around questions.
Now what he said could be possible but it doesnt help in a discussion about theories tbh. The same way I started speculating based on logical thoughts processes like he did in my eyes because theres not enough knowledge

[muted ember]

I would assume the goal of spying on pirates is to undermine them

[weak arrow]

Give a shitpost response like Xdddddd again and you’re getting a warning

[ancient vault]

@abstract pond correct?

[ancient vault]

How would they be anti WG? Do you think they have secret members within the ranks of Cp0 for example?

[vivid forum]

I don't have an opinion due to lack of info, I'm just saying sure, it could exist

[ancient vault]

Yeah sure just asking where they could be placed. Lets explore the idea a bit

[vivid forum]

well, if you want to get in depth about it, I think it's established that some marines have anti-wg sentiments but only to an extent. For the most part, they might not obey orders that go against their moral compass but they aren't going to outright rebel-- at most they might quit the marines. And like in garp's case even if he wants to quit his reputation prevents the marines from actually letting him go.

then factor in that there's an entire anti-wg organization in dragon's revolutionary army, I think it is likely there are at least a few people fulfilling the same function as x-drake has in kaido's pirates. Whether sword is related to this or not is unknown (imo, not too likely the revolutionary army would have an entire fighting force on this) but if sword is meant to fulfill a pirate spying function it's possible they might be converted later. but like I said, there's 0 info on this, this theory has nothing to back it up

[abstract pond]

I already said it. "sword could be independent of the wg in the shadows".
Don't know what you trying me to say now. You can read the conversation again if you have any doubts. I'm not gonna repeat all.

[vivid forum]

the reason sword could potentially be converted would simply be because they have front row seats to wg's abuses and pirates like luffy fighting against that, but yeah, again, 0 info on this

[ancient vault]

I am not againt the idea that it will be converted. Im actually in support of it.

Are you saying there might be RA members within the marines or might even be related to swords?

[vivid forum]

it's possible, dragon has been around a long time and we see with robin that they trained her primarily for spycraft

[abstract pond]

this is why we talking in theories channel and not proven facts channel

[ancient vault]

I cant get behind the related to swords stuff tbh because Akainu as the fleet admiral knows about swords. Now idk if he knows details but he knows that such group exists because thats where he got the information about big mom and Kaido from

[ancient vault]

Yeah just wondering at this point if Garp abandoned Dragon or not

He never really spoke of him badly unlike Shanks who he demonized

[vivid forum]

garp is a super interesting character to me given how his family tree has played out

[ancient vault]

I mean there are theories out there that garp and dragon are working together

[vivid forum]

I think from what we see of how he treats ace, he respects their decisions but doesn't agree. however he will probably be forced to make a real decision sooner or later

it's definitely possible they are working together

[ancient vault]

He only respects them after they repeatedly refused his way of life

[vivid forum]

haha that's true

[ancient vault]

I think it was more so that he respected them as grown adults at that point being able to make their own decisions. He still despises pirates really

[vivid forum]

yeah, my impression of what is said of the rocks crew is that he might have good reason for it... the world of one piece is a bad place to live for normal citizens and pirates definitely contribute to the problem.

though, every time the tenryubito show up, it makes you wonder what the marines think they stand for

[ancient vault]

I agree. Well I made a theory on it and Im sure xebecs was the most cruel pirate we'll ever see pathing the way for garps hatred towards pirates as well as the Celestial Dragons fear of the D.s

[vivid forum]

yeah I think that's probably on point

[ancient vault]

The majority of marines still believe in absolute justice. (mostly) thats why I think theres gonna be some form of reeducation in the system through the revos and kuzan most likely

Though I doubt that the majority actually believes to their core that they should serve the CD

[vivid forum]

kinda hard to say that with a straight face when you have celestial dragons kidnapping people off the street in broad daylight to be slaves

[ancient vault]

Also even more interesting is the simultaneous existence of Roger next to Xebecs

Though Garp most likely still despises Pirates Roger was mostly an exception for how he felt about him because roger was in essence kind hearted

[vivid forum]

yeah I'm definitely looking forward to getting more info on that generation

[ancient vault]

We'll see why Roger helped out Garp but we already got glimpses of Rogers kind hearted soul similar to Luffys. The best example I can think of is Buggy warning Oden that Roger is gonna kill him for attacking civilians. The entire crew knew this is a no go

[muted ember]

I think Garp was undercover on the Rocks Pirates, pure speculation

[vivid forum]

... if that was the case he'd probably have a really really good reason to hate pirates then

[ancient vault]

a sword member?

never heard that before, sounds like a fun idea

[split glacier]

That's when the demon would come out...lol

[vivid forum]

idk though I seem to recall garp and roger's last conversation indicated garp served as more of a smoker for roger than anything, the timeline for garp successfully going undercover seems like it wouldn't work for that in that case

[muted ember]

Idk if every undercover Marines is sword, maybe he was the inspiration for it

[ancient vault]

Youre right. Garp was to famous

[muted ember]

Garp became famous because of the Rocks incident

So he wasn't necessarily famous before

[ancient vault]

Necessarily yeah possible no. All depends on when he started hunting Roger
it'd be a fun idea tho

I hope Kaidos flashback actually delivers on the rocks pirate crew at least

[muted ember]

Garp himself said the Rocks incident got him his title and Roger's Era was after that

[ancient vault]

Yeah but for example Smoker was already known pre TS when luffy was a rookie

[muted ember]

Drake was a known rear admiral before infiltrating Kaido?

[ancient vault]

Well Smoker I think we can say was more famous than drake but ig in the grand scheme of things a guy controlling a part of paradise doesnt really matter

[muted ember]

Smoker had a lower rank than Drake I would assume Drake had a better reputation before he "quit" Oda just doesn't give us any setup before his introduction

[ancient vault]

I keep forgetting smoker wasnt vice admiral pre TS

[grizzled fog]

Well smoker was definitely known, he had a reputation as a wild dog of the navy even pre ts

[versed hamlet]

Tjats actually a really interesting take i like it

[sand sail]

I don't think that'd work for Garp imo

[near osprey]

It wouldn't Garp would have a hard time of holding himself back.

That's like Luffy doing an infiltration in a Pirate Group known to be killers

Plus Garp is horrible at keeping anything secret

[pure raven]

I'd like to present my theory that eventually the role of lookout will be filled based on this panel right here

this is similar to when luffy asks for a musician and we take it as a gag

[modest skiff]

Viola joining would be ideal here

[frozen roost]

Usopp would be a good lookout guy

Bro

Law is the strategist of the alliance

Even if someone were to be brought in the crew and have good plans I dount anyone would follow that's just how the sh pirates are

[gray creek]

I love Vivi as much as the next fan, but she's a straight up liability. Whoever fills out the crew at spot 10 we should reasonably assume will be able to 1v1 a titanic captain (because that's totally going to be how that conflict goes)

[muted ember]

Stopping at 10 is an assumption

[frozen roost]

But I thought oda confirmed sh pirates will max out at 10

[muted ember]

I would like the source on that

[royal agate]

when lol

[frozen roost]

cant find it, must be another thing that I thought I heard

But I did find an article saying that luffy in the beginning wanted a crew of 10 people excluding himself

From cbr dot com

[muted ember]

He said at least 10

[frozen roost]

And explaining the only roles left in crew that someone could fill

Quartermaster,master and striker

Havent read the part about what the first 2 do

[pure raven]

Cbr is just click bait don’t read too much into their stuff

[ancient vault]

Tbh i dont think anyone took musician as a gag

Nor would I rank the role of a look out comparable to that of a musician

[rapid fern]

This is an underrated role, scientist

[granite raptor]

cbr is shit do not trust em

[thorny cedar]

Cbr told me smoker could beat luffy

[granite raptor]

cbr says that ace is the most hated because he apparently sexually harasses women

[thorny cedar]

Possible character arc of abusive ace👀

[visual furnace]

Franky exists

[rapid fern]

If you view a shipwright as a scientist then yeah..why not

[muted ember]

He's an all around engineer/ architect

[robust sierra]

yeah he's an engineer

[pine delta]

i was writing up an arguement that chopper is more of a scientist than franky, as science looks more organic focussed in one piece, but franky is a cyborg which is a "scientist" trait in one piece. So he is in fact their scientist

the only scientist who hasn't done cyborg esque tech is ceaser clown, and honestly his giant experimentation is close enough to that. kind of funny how all science fields seem to just overlap but thats oda logic applied here i believe.

[muted ember]

Chopper, Usopp, and Nami are also scientists, the SHs actually talk about this when Sanji first finds his raid suit

[pine delta]

vegapunk, in addition to his lineage research and cyborg tech, had major engineering projects on his home island. but he's just called a scientist. Jobs in one piece are more of a how oda interpets them in his goofy way anyway (Shipwrights = rope logic technique)

[muted ember]

They try to convince Sanji to keep the suit and they say they fight with the power of science

[pine delta]

yep. science might play a major role in vegapunks arc it would be hilarious to have a reveal the weather wizards that taught nami were MADS

[proud tree]

franky is superior to Vegapunk .. he managed to create a superior Cyborg to Kuma

[pine delta]

we do not know this. franky turned himself into a cyborg, who knows what vegapunk could make himself

[muted ember]

Franky's new tech is Vegapunk's old tech

[proud tree]

Franky can beat a Pacifista, Vegapunks new tech

[pine delta]

vegapunk has new tech that is the improved pacifistas

[proud tree]

General Franky > Improved Pacifista

[pine delta]

additionally, pacifistas are a mass produced weapon not a one of a kind unique cyborg

[muted ember]

The Pacifista are not the heights of his research either we have to see ssg

[pine delta]

i think ssg new weapon is in fact the upgraded pacifistas

potentially general franky is better than improved pacifista, but if oda is writing the story that one of the warlords actually lost to them then its wraps

[muted ember]

I hope it's new characters w genetic modification but my hc is they have pacifista instead of crews

[pine delta]

pacifista looks like an application of human clones and cyborg modifications, as well as lineage element of kizaru. the next step imho is either something implementing wapometal like general franky or additional lineage elements (which, while cool, doesn't make them warlord level)

random idea i just thought that could make sense: what if its an advanced exosuit that applies lineage abilities (essentially wearable devil fruit armor) and coby is wearing it? Allows coby to become warlord level and story relevant while also displaying vegapunk genius

[muted ember]

I can actually see something like that happening. I know I said new characters but I think Sentamaru will be one, I could see Coby being a part of it too

But you're basically saying a raid suit that ate a df right?

[pine delta]

essentially. the germa suits had pseudo df abilties already. vegapunk could be expanding on that, we already saw that queen has like 5 devil fruit abilities built into himself so it is 100% replicatable. being able to mass produce something like that puts him way above queen or judge who had a much more limited production run

maybe even like "identifying opponent. selecting counter ability...counter ability loaded. rubber fruit properties initialized" against enel or something. but with like a more limited range of df abilities.

There was a theory i read that devil fruits are all manmade technology so it isn't too crazy to do that sort of thing. What really gives these ideas a basis imho is both the pacifista and MADS overall tech regarding exoskeletons/cyborg/lineage skills and a way to give coby smoker and tashigi a power boost for the final war

in terms of new characters, vegapunk arc will def have like a few MADS members that we didnt know beforehand (might be killed off or irrelevent in sasid flashback) as well as more workers like sentomaru who support the science. it all really depends on vegapunk's relationship with the world government

[split glacier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZI2v8ACHXE&ab_channel=TheHiddenIsland

Waits for the hate as usual

[placid kite]

After Kaido defeats luffy for the third time, he will become deep in thought and will start the kaido flashback

[tawdry blaze]

You do know that he did that using vegapunks old research?

[twin widget]

what do you guys think is up with blackbeard?

[woven moth]

My message was deleted, but my serious opinion is he has a Kraken DF that gave him three hearts. Octopi sleep in short spurts. A Kraken using tsunamis would be very fitting, the whole darkness aspect works with not only ink but the idea that he could turn into a cthulu like being for his Awakening, and I think fighting a giant Kraken Blackbeard would be a very piratey thing to do. He would even look like Davy Jones from PotC in his Half-Zoan form.

[modest skiff]

And it’s a bad assumption. He said at least ten

[modest skiff]

Why do you think hearts are a necessary part of using a devil fruit?

No heart

[woven moth]

Because they (CP 9) mentioned if a human eats more than one DF, their heart will explode. Anyway. I'm going to stop posting here. It just feels like an echo chamber where if you have a different opinion, you get lambasted.

[sand sail]

It's a shame posting in a public forum in a channel for theory discussion seems to scream "Don't disagree with me" for some

But incidentally, they don't say anything about the heart, the entire body explodes if you ingest two devil fruits.

That would be why people came up with the whole Blackbeard having a fetal twin theory or some kind of multiple-bodied chimera fruit

[split glacier]

Blackbeard secretly having a Kraken fruit all this time before even having the Yami/Gura so he can use 3 DFs seems iffy. He'll most likely(?) get a 3rd fruit with it being some crazy powerful one (Zoan probably) seeing as he's one of the few to have read the DF Encyclopedia.

[fathom matrix]

I believe the kraken theory more than the cerberus one

[frozen roost]

who even made that encyclopedia

[modest skiff]

I think a 3 skulled flag indicates 3 wills a lot more than 3-component body. Kraken theory doesn’t make sense for all the same reasons as described before

[split glacier]

Big question

[modest skiff]

If I recall correctly, the Kraken theory still relies on body parts, which is difficult considering the wiki article posted above

[fathom matrix]

Heck, maybe that's the key. You need multiple hearts to have more than 1 devil fruit

[frozen roost]

But wouldn't that mean bb would have to transform into a kraken then eat a devil fruit

[split glacier]

There's that "theory" where it shows every time we've seen BB, he's had different teeth...lol

[frozen roost]

However way he took wb df there was no way he turned into a kraken then

[fathom matrix]

True, but Zoans can effect the user's base form, as seen with Chopper gaining intelligence, Kaido having strong skin, Orochi's decapitation survival, etc.

So maybe BB's base allows him to have 3 hearts and only requires 30-40 seconds of sleep

[modest skiff]

The different teeth theory makes more sense than others because it could mean multiple souls or wills. But it doesn’t change the fact that during MF he uses each fruit with a different hand at the same time

[split glacier]

He just needed to block all light to fully use the Yami's power

[modest skiff]

But what reason do we have to think hearts are related in any way whatsoever?

[split glacier]

Him not sleeping is more linked to him being from a snowy region

[sand sail]

Blackbeard's not from a snowy region

[modest skiff]

More so we don’t know what region he is from, right? We just know somewhere in the grand line if I recall correctly?

[fathom matrix]

The number 3 has been associated with black beard, his flag, his guns, and his flag has 8 bones, and Octopuses have 3 hearts and 8 legs, and sleep for 30 seconds, and blackbeard either never sleeps or barely sleeps.

Every human and almost every known animals has 1 heart. It's not completely solid, but the best guess and some peeps and me have, is that if you have more than 1 heart, you can have multiple devil fruits. Like it acts as a container.

That may be why people "explode". Probably their hearts can't handle more than 1 power at a time.

As to why Vegapunk never thought of this? Well either it's so simple he never thought about it and took a more complicated route, OR he does know but doesn't want anyone, including the WG to find out

[modest skiff]

Kaido’s flag also has 8 bones

Also how could a teapot and a sword use a devil fruit if a heart was involved? The idea that you don’t need a heart, but if you have 3 hearts you can use 3, does not make sense to me

[fathom matrix]

One idea some peeps had was that zoans are actual animals souls, so you're animating an inanimate object.

Maybe when THAT has a heart, that's already a slot that's been taken up.

[sand sail]

Yeh, we don't have a specific island, but we actually see where he's from in the Oden flashback

[sand sail]

On the other hand, Vegapunk knowing this doesn't actually affect anything. Even if it were common knowledge, it's not something anyone could actually take advantage of

If it does come down to the number of hearts, Blackbeard would just be entirely unique in that he would be the only person in history who both has two hearts and has the courage to go and eat multiple devil fruits

With the Yami Yami acting as the perfect vehicle for transfer with its ability to absorb fruit powers

[modest skiff]

I really don’t think this makes sense. I understand that video was well edited, but the fundamental logic of the theory really just doesn’t hold up.

[sand sail]

So this theory is still viable without it having to be super secret knowledge, since it's knowledge that would be useless to anyone who isn't Blackbeard anyway

[modest skiff]

More so we see where he met White Beard, without confirmation that is where he is born, right?

[sand sail]

Yeh, that's where we see him come from, but he could've made his way there from wherever he was initially born

[modest skiff]

Another thing to consider is that in addition to Kaidos’s flag, we see imagery of 8 in Alabasta, skypiea, FMI, and Wano

[fathom matrix]

That's a fair point, and we don't know how many devil fruits have been recorded.

Heck, I'm surprised no one shouted "OH SHIT, HE HAS THE YAMI YAMI NO ME, BE CAREFUL!" Probably showing it's a DF only some people know. Like I know BB said he looked through some sort of encyclopedia, but I still think someone gave him a really old book of that information, and I'm betting it was Shiki.

Hell, maube Shiki (like with Kurozumi Higurashi giving Orochi his fruit), Shiki inspired Teach, gave him the kraken/octopus fruit, had him follow specific instructions on how to get the other powers, get onto whitebeard's crew, KNOWING yonko ships are perfect for finding rare fruits, and ennact that plan.

[modest skiff]

I do think BB potentially positioned himself to be found by White Beard. But since Kaido’s flag and other flags have 8 on them, doesn’t that make the theory make less sense to you? All that leaves is 3 and is that really enough reason to hold on to a kraken theory?

I think it’s much more likely some group of 8 nations or races were somehow related or sympathetic to the AK and perhaps BB is among them

[fathom matrix]

No, that is a fair point, but I still think it could be an idea for the flag. Like a symbol can have multiple representations

[split glacier]

The flashbacks didn't even show WB with scars so i dunno how accurate you can hold them to even tho it is Wano Arc. The fact BB doesn't sleep, Luffy saying people from snowy regions don't sleep and this image of BB as kid with his feet in snow is why people believe him to be from a snowy region. Living somewhere at the time and being born and raised somewhere are different things so you never now. It's not a 0% chance and this is the theory section so

[modest skiff]

It can, I’m just saying BB isn’t the only place we see 8 so it feels hard to say “and so it must be tentacles”

My assumption has been that we are slowly being introduced to each of the 8 components represented by these flags. Perhaps Elbaf and whatever BB is will be among them as well

[split glacier]

8 planets and the Sun? If you regulate Pluto as a planet of this/their solar system lol. That's where the other races come from if you wanna follow that space theory.

[modest skiff]

Yeah, I think Clover was essentially making the same mistake humanity made once upon a time by thinking the earth was the center of our solar system

[fathom matrix]

I was gonna say did the one piece world have 8 moons, turns out it's just 6

[split glacier]

If you count all 8 orbs + the Sun (which isn't in that solar system model). It's similar to old solar system models of our own where they thought the Sun and everything else revolved around the Earth.

[wary fossil]

There’s only 4 bones on those flags. The bones are long and cross each other, hence skull and crossbones

[bitter kraken]

Something I’ve been wondering and idk if it’s been discussed yet but Cp0 knows who drake is and that he’s still navy so why are they attacking fighting him? Same for drake why is he attacking/ fighting Cp0 if they’re supposed to be on the same side. Now drake has no choice but to kill fhem to cover up that he attacked them, if they survive they’ll run and tell the gov what drake has done fighting along side a pirate apoo against them.

[weak arrow]

CP0 is attacking drake because they dont want drake to report that cp0 were on wano doing bad things

and drake is defending himself

[bitter kraken]

Oh yeah yeah that makes sense

[muted valley]

@sand sail

@muted ember

It all likley revolves around the whole not sleeping thing. we could thorize he has a fruit like the Kraken one, but something that doesnt sleep, as that would line up with him. itd likley be a mythical thing. I do think he has multiple personalities and DF, lineage factor, and souls play into that. That in theory Cabbage could have 2df if Hakuba ate one and Cavendish ate a different one.

my current running idea is that DF house souls of things. As they reincarnate like a person, Zoans animals, Paramecia something that revolves around a substance/passion or action deeply held.(Like someone who enjoyed cutting things has a soul/aspect for the bara bara no Mi(idk how to articulate my thoughts on this well after being up for 40hours)), Logia's have substances. We have seen aspects of buddism and shinto in OP so itd follow similar relations. (also I have 0 idea how itd explain what brooks fruit is and wtf itd be the soul of)

That when a person/object takes a DF the soul of the DF merges with the user/object. That is why logia DF swords/cannons/things have personalities of their own and became a living animal even though they do not have their own personality. Either allowing an innanimate object to be able to show its true "soul" through being a living animal or the soul from the DF manifests in the object explaining why it is sentiant. This also would explain the SMILES as we know they are botched and weird Zoans, where we see the animals have their own personality. So the Soul manifests separately from the eater of the DF.

So objects have souls and DF merge a reincarnated fruit with soul into the soul of a object or person. So BB/Cabbage who could have 2 souls, be able to have more than 1 df. As the df is attached to the soul and with more than 1 they could have more DF.

(I am really tired but this is what I have been thinking about with BB and DF)

[ripe geyser]

Queen is a thin woman

Kaido’s commanders are named after the Jack, Queen and King playing cards. They’re all men, but Queen is a feminine title not a masculine one. So how can Queen possibly be a lean girl if his appearance is the opposite? The thing is, we can’t see the woman cause she’s inside of a mech suit named “Queen”. That may not make sense cause Queen has an ancient zoan ability, but the catch is this: the mech suit Queen is what “ate” the DF. We’ve seen objects with zoan abilities before. There’s 2 components of evidence that reinforce this: the first is how Queen always sings “If I get thinner I’ll be too popular”. Queen is a cyborg, how could they possibly get thinner? Perhaps this is foreshadowing. The second and better piece of evidence is when Queen uses Brachiosnakeus. How can Queen separate from an entire section of his body and still move as well as have consciousness? It makes no sense. The key scene though is when the brachio launchers are fired. Queen references them and then they’re fired. It’s probably programmed with if-then statements right? Hmm… so then why did he say “I didn’t tell you to use the brachio launcher!”…? Who is Queen addressing here? That’s right. The person piloting them, the thin woman who would be too popular if she revealed herself. But she fired the brachio launcher by mistake twice, clearly implying she isn’t consciously aware of what the situation is (if Mech Suit states “brachio launcher” then brachio launchers must fire) She could very well be AI-controlled like what happened with Kuma. Ik the things I mentioned above aren’t actual evidence that actually support this idea specifically but I wanted to make this ridiculous theory sound even slightly professional.

(Don’t take this too seriously, I’m 99% sure it’s wrong)

[crude turtle]

I want this to be true so badly

[amber oar]

but I wanted to make this ridiculous theory sound even slightly professional.
Making a long ass paragraph is usually enough for most people to believe it's the hottest theory dropped in weeks. You'll be okay

[weak arrow]

It'd be a cool theory, but I'd say the #1 thing I can think of against it is if Sanji has CoO active, it should 100% sense such an anomaly.

[junior cape]

I think that, by the end of the raid, Kid and Law will show signs of Conqueror’s Haki usage. While we know Kid has it, he doesn't use it very often. Law, on the other hand, has not shown any aptitude before now. I think one of the leadups to Big Mom's eventual defeat and/or demise is Kid figuring out Advanced Conqueror's haki, and Law unlocking Conqueror's haki altogether.

[ripe geyser]

Exactly, that’s one of the main reasons why I think it’s so unlikely

[pure raven]

i would say that sanji got his power from germa science , maybe judge had something to do with kaido and king being experimented on . just like vega punk copyed kaido fruit . judge must'v got something from king dna ola somthing like and that to creat his sons

[weary scarab]

Queen is a thin woman
(Don’t take this too seriously, I’m 99% sure it’s wrong)

Now I didn't need to read the whole context to it, thanks! 👍

[pure raven]

Sanji would go crazy

[ancient vault]

@amber oar poor pol falling for an anime ending

[ancient vault]

Thats not snow. It was just white things from the anime ending. The manga drawing by oda in SBS doesnt have snow. The people cut it like this to make it look like snow

[amber oar]

ah the snow argument.

Sorry buddy. No snow https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/477571830941614080/857101352425095178/unknown.png

[split glacier]

Oh okay. Stil doesn't negate the other points. Y'all really jumping on my d with that one 🙄
It's really funny how people act so arrogant in a theory section where it's just people guessing. The need to be right i guess 😂

[ancient vault]

Nah its just funny how ppl always get tricked by that anime ending and someone who decided to troll ppl

[split glacier]

Not really because the his location is still a mystery and given story information, him being from a snowy region is still possible and likely compared to others

[ancient vault]

But yeah if youre wondering why i didnt address the other stuff, i just dont like the kraken theory. I‘ve heard it enough times. Not saying its bad i just dont like to discuss it

[split glacier]

Never said anything about kraken

[ancient vault]

I scrolled up and you guys were discussing sbout kraken and tentacles lol

[split glacier]

Selective reading at its finest I guess. I never said he was kraken but cool 👍

[ancient vault]

I just told you all I did was scroll up and see kraken so I wanted to dip again but then i saw your image and had to react cause its funny seeing ppl always use the same wrong image
Nothing deeper than that

[ancient vault]

If DF were related to hearts than noone that got their heart stolen by law could use their DF without their heart in their body

[ancient vault]

Where the heck did you get shiki from?

[gray creek]

The truly ridiculous thing about people making the snow argument is that immediately after Luffy said the thing about not sleeping it was debunked as nonsense. The whole thing was a gag at Luffy and Sanji’s expense

[gray creek]

There’s no connection between not sleeping and being from a cold place. It’s just something Luffy said once and was completely wrong about

[amber oar]

they literally arrived later to a snowy place where people do sleep lol

the entire connection between BB and a snowy place came from the alleged snow under his feet as a child. I lost count on how many times I already debunked the "snow"

[split glacier]

Doesn't mean it's not true though. It doesn't have to encompass every single person from a snowy region, maybe it's an old saying that's passed down, who knows. It's a bit random to throw that in as a "joke" to then have BB visit there and later bring up that he never sleeps. Sure, the floor isn't snow. Y'all get so high and tight over theories lol. It's a theory section, get the stick outta cheeks and relax ya bean~ It's FUN to link things. Y'all must've been going out of your mind when they recalled the part of "Red eyes" "bursting into flames" and they said it was King.
Nothing we don't know is "wrong" until the series is over.

[severe ice]

WAIT whaaat? You think Marshall D Teach got a Zoan even before the Gura Gura and Yami Yami no mi?

[opaque dune]

sorry im late but i want to add this

[amber oar]

no snow reference tho

[opaque dune]

I don't think it's a coincidence that they showed night time and snow on his feet

[amber oar]

look the damn chat above.

[opaque dune]

Well, theres something else that could be a stretch

Before teach joins the whitebeard pirates, they’re shown on a snow island

[sand sail]

Just shouting "it's a theory it's a theory" over and over again and complaining about people contradicting you doesn't actually give credit to your messages here. Sure, it's a theory section, so double check your sources and actually know what you're talking about when you make your theory If you're just throwing random things out there based on basically fan rumor, that's all well and good, but you don't get to complain when it turns out what you heard of was just wrong from the start and you crafted a whole theory based on something that never happened/didn't exist in the series.

Like, go ahead and have fun with it as much as you want, but when you're presenting something wrong and calling it the backup to your thought, you're going to get called out 10 times out of 10 because that's how theories are discussed. If you don't want it, don't post in the theory discussion channel lmao

It's not about the theory being wrong, it's about what you're basing it on being shaky at best and just incorrect at worst. The theory itself is fine, you need something strong or at least viable to back it up or it's not really worth talking about.

[opaque dune]

Its crazy to me how underestimated Blackbeard is, he was able to scar shanks

[sand sail]

But that wasn't like a modern day Shanks, that feat isn't really worth much unfortunately

[split glacier]

It's preexisting, I didn't make it up. I already said take the floor isn't snow out of the equation. It doesn't need to be wrong/right. It's the just possibility is still available. Ain't nobody forcing you to believe it, it's just "Hey, that links in a way"

Wasn't modern day BB either so it's still kinda holds weight. Doubt Shanks was a complete bum being on the PK ship as a young buck

[opaque dune]

I was re-watching the Shanks and Whitebeard meeting, He had established his name by then because Whitebeard said Shank's battles with Mihawk were legendary and Shanks said that he didn't get that scar from Mihawk and he wasn't being careless either.

[split glacier]

They gonna have to do a Kaido on him and team up. It's not gonna be a simple 1v1

[opaque dune]

he also talked about Whitebeard "knowing what he's talking about" and how Blackbeard wasn't some nobody

[sand sail]

It doesn't have to be wrong or right, your evidence supporting it actually does. A theory won't be validated or rejected until the series does so, but you're going to have to actually bring facts to back it up. Facts, not misconceptions.

[sand sail]

This makes it not really a feat for either of them, though, that's my point. It wasn't modern day for either one, so all we can do is say it happened at some point in the last 20 years

Unfortunately, we don't actually know if he got it before or after fighting Mihawk. All we know is it all happened after Shanks left Roger's crew.

[sand sail]

Whitebeard says the fight between Shanks and Mihawk was still fresh to him, but that doesn't really give any reference to when he was scarred. It was over 12 years ago, potentially it could've even happened around the time Roger died.

[opaque dune]

Yea but he also said he knew how strong Ace was and he was more than worthy of his role as second commander but he wasn't enough for Blackbeard

[sand sail]

Shanks didn't actually know how strong Blackbeard was, or really how strong Ace was. He was estimating, he hadn't seen Ace in a couple years by that point.

That was his point, that no one really knew how strong Blackbeard was, and that made him dangerous because he'd been hiding behind Whitebeard

[opaque dune]

the whole "you know what I'm talking about" keeps me up at night

[sand sail]

I'm not sure what you're referring to

[sand sail]

It looks like that isn't in the manga, but why is that significant? Whitebeard would be getting the full gist of what Shanks is saying by then

[opaque dune]

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/rhsou4/gear_fourth_lion_man/

I just seen this theory, don't get why people are upset... do they want gear 5 that bad?

[mortal field]

I can see him going Lion man

Im guessing it would combine all the buffs from previous forms

[split glacier]

I guess they just don't see another form of G4 as the way to beat Kaido as its not a "power up" and just another form in the same power range.

https://youtu.be/XsxyC_YWY38

[pine delta]

are there any other references to sleeping habits in one piece other than blackbeard?

the only I can thing of is hakuba and cavendish, and if thats the only other sleep related oddity then maybe blackbeard has the same quirk and fed his other self the fruit. Just a parallel I thought of

[inner charm]

What do you think about the possibility of a fruit that is the direct opposite to the yami yami no mi

And before you say pika pika fruit. Let me get you thinking.

What if their was a fruit called the star star fruit. I know it sounds wild but let me explain.The yami yami no mi is called the strongest logia. And obviously wbs fruit is called the strongest paramecia.I thought about a fruit that would do the opposite of bbs fruit. So amplify instead of negate
Repel stuff with gravity instead of attract.Release matter instead of absorp.What also gets me thinking this hypothetical power could be real is the fact. That actual star fruit exists in real world as carmbola. That is eaten heavily in Brazil
And goa Kingdom is based on Brazil

A hoshi hoshi no mi that was consumed via a tropical star fruit

And has the ability to amplify df powers of others

And do pretty much anything a star can do

[sand sail]

How would it be able to amplify other fruit powers? If it's the opposite of Blackbeard's, it'd basically just be the gura gura

[inner charm]

But doesn't bb negate df powers

[modest skiff]

I thought of this as well. But since BB use each fruit in 1 hand at the same time, the idea of alternating wills/souls/consciousness doesn’t hold up as a basic mechanism. It would need to be concurrent wills, which I don’t see why it can’t be

[sand sail]

Yeh, he removes them completely, he doesn't negate them

[inner charm]

So a power that can amplify the power of others temporarily

The opposite of a power that can remove the powers of others temporarily

[modest skiff]

Perhaps a power that can…stretch..the capabilities of other fruits? 🙂

[sand sail]

That doesn't really work with the way it removes though, it'd be more like a fruit that grants others its power

[inner charm]

Yeah something like that bro

[inner charm]

Yeah I thought that aswell. But what about a like a zone where any df user who is touched by this user or in his zone has their powers amplified

[muted ember]

Doflamingo was making normal weapons and smiles right?

[sand sail]

But if you're going by just the opposite of the yami yami, especially if it's basically making a white hole instead of a black one, amplification wouldn't really be the go to power there

Yep

[inner charm]

Yeah amplification isn't the direct opposite of negate youre right

[modest skiff]

I don’t want amplification to be a thing because I think it is hard to get right, but who knows. We don’t really have any reason to or not to think it exists. Shrug

[inner charm]

But I'm just think about a logia like bbs that has the ability to interact with dfs

[pine delta]

The only counter is, caven/ haku could have a 50/50 transform and both used the sword. We didn’t see him with a df so it’s possible it’s a mechanics thing. But just a theory

[muted ember]

Sounds like a df specific version of Belo Betty I could see that

[inner charm]

Yeah belo Betty bumps physical right. I could see her being able to pump herself up

[modest skiff]

Yeah, maybe multiple soul folks can find a way to coexist the same way the (theoretical) will of devil fruits coexist with their user

[inner charm]

So basically she's got the ability to hype x100

And you know how bbs powers are more akin to a black hole

Since darkness is kinda abstract

[pine delta]

I don’t think there’s any real examples other than that to compare to its all just light possible foreshadowing

[muted ember]

Hawkins said he had a card that could power someone up too

[inner charm]

And doesn't he read taret cards. Isnt that reading fate from the stars

Or what about a supernova df of some kind

I can imagine a fruit that looks like the top 1

[modest skiff]

Yeah, agreed. This morning I was thinking I need to compile a literature review of sorts regarding BB theories

There are like 5 major BB theories that I think warrant a full on technical summary/review

I’m using up all my vacation days for the rest of the year so I’ll make that one of my projects

I don’t wanna clog up this channel, so if people could please DM me BB theories, I am going to review a large batch of them and then go over the pros and cons of each of them. I’ll post here once I’m done

[pine delta]

Based, good luck

[muted valley]

If you're talking about Laws ability, it seems that their hearts are still apart of their body. Just that his fruit created a pocket for the fruit to still be attached, to whomever.

So I don't think it'd be accurate to say their heart was stolen, but rather magically removed but still attached.

[pine delta]

evidence to support that would be no one died off of having their hearts removed

[muted valley]

Also while any of the persons parts were removed they still had control to it. Like a beheaded marine. Still could control his body.

But they could hurt people by squeezing their heart in the magical cube.

[muted valley]

That's what I'd think, as if the theory is true Cabbage and Hurkaba could both have a single fruit. We also in dressrossa he did have his body have half him and half Hakuraba, when he stopped himself from attacking Robin.
Which could happen 4 BB.

[lyric berry]

how does this work in punk hazard with the centaur people and their animal legs?

[muted valley]

Probably a different procedure. Seeing how the Ope Ope can doo loads of things. Like switching personalities.

We saw that luffy and dragon had kinemons legs and they still were linked to him.

It's magic surgery, he can do w.e. doesn't mean he can't remove the link between bodies and such. He can make people immortal, but I also thought they had the frozen animals and he used them as done bodies, as they were dead.

[lyric berry]

i can buy that

[pine delta]

punk hazard was actual surgery iirc. they had already lost their legs and law gave them legs

[terse coral]

So, I'm just making sure i understood this correctly

In 1034, it's revealed that King can copy Soba Mask's powers, so Queen was the one who attacked that one girl Sanji thought he attacked, right? I got a bit confused for a sec

Was it just a rouse to get Sanji to destroy the suit, or was it purely coincidental

or am I just wrong in general

[sand sail]

Not copy, Queen just has all of Germa's tech already embedded in his body. It was coincidental, he didn't want Sanji to give up the suit, he wanted Sanji to use it. He hurt the girl because she'd been refusing his advances for a while and lied about being ill all day, and it upset him

That's more of a question for one of the other manga channels though, this is more for theory discussion

[terse coral]

I thought it was a theory, my bad

[twin widget]

when luffy and zoro said “it’s not him, its they” in jaya when they walked away from blackbeard was that cause they knew his crew was around or cause they know something is up with bb himself

[wild veldt]

The crew

There is 0 reason for it to be anything else

[pallid scaffold]

So are Kings wings actually his or the Devil Fruits?

[crystal spire]

His

[grizzled fog]

Both. He has real wings and he gets wings when he goes into zoan form

[high narwhal]

What???no!!

It was about his multiple personalities

[pure raven]

what are you talking about

from my recollection blackbeard has had a consistant personality throughout the entire story

the multiple personality thing is based on nothing

[ruby depot]

kadio almost died at god valley that why big mom gave him the fruit so was he so hell bent on protecting/dying for his captain he was on the brink of death and wanted to die

now due to nobody having the same haki as roger and garp maybe shanks he looking for luffy to kill him

[pure raven]

what

[junior cape]

Nah. Kaido got into his "Glorious Death" phase only recently in One Piece world time. God Valley was 40 years ago, and he was a up-and-coming cocky pirate, with massive strength behind him. His primary goal has likely always been the whole "world of violence" thing, but he hasn't wanted to go out with a bang until a few years ago.

Also, King is very handsome

[livid finch]

So king has the same tattoo and skin color as Wiper... Do y'all think lunarians and shandela are related???

[junior cape]

Anyways, King just got his wing cut off, so he's down for the count. He's likely just gonna fall to his doom and bleed out when he hits the ground. Even if he turns dino, it's still a couple thousand feet since it's in the clouds.

[undone cliff]

I think they are, and if u remember wiper had insane durability

[junior cape]

Well that's a complicated question. We know from Enel's cover story that there were several winged races who came from the moon. It is likely then that the Lunarians were, title aside, among them.

[junior cape]

Wiper wasn't especially durable, per se, he was just incredibly stubborn, and very willing to die if it meant his cause moved forward. Remember, his own attacks almost killed him multiple times.

Perhaps for that part of the Grand Line, yes he was very tanky, but nowadays he'd be wiped off the map.

But that's doing a disservice to him. He was never meant to stack up against New World threats in the first place.

Moving on, I think the next domino to fall will be Fukurokuju, the head ninja. Oda is gonna save Big Mom and Kaido for the Main Event. I think Raizo vs. Fuku will be the focus of the next chapter, but we will get a brief interlude of Momo and Yamato, since we haven't seen them in the last 2 chapters much. That flame demon has to be stopped.

[inner crow]

I never talked here before, but u guys know when the next chapter will come out ? 🥺

[junior cape]

2 weeks, estimated. Otherwise, see you in January.

[inner crow]

Ty 😉

[lapis panther]

It's still unclear who the mysterious person was that helped the scabbards, right?

[azure maple]

When Kaido said 'so you couldn't become joyboy either', does anyone think he meant that he was the one that thought he would become joyboy?

[azure maple]

I think the leading answer is that it was Hiyori but yes it's still unclear

[vestal orbit]

I think so as well
Thought it might’ve been roger or xebec but his flashback makes himself seem more likely

[modest skiff]

I'd like to reiterate my theory that BM, WB and Kaido all followed Xebec because he wanted to free the world

I have never felt this much vindication in my entire life. So many people thought I was crazy.

[sand sail]

He didn't want to free the world, I imagine. He wanted to rule it in a chaotic paradise

Otherwise, Roger would've followed him

[modest skiff]

I think Roger was just another Garp, afraid to do what was necessary. He couldn't bare the guilt of 20,000 people dying for the sake of long term freedom

[sand sail]

That really is a crazy theory unfortunately I'm sure he wanted to tear down the government and everything, but he didn't want people free, he wanted them lawless under his rule

[modest skiff]

I disagree, I think he was just the only one willing to ignore all the conflicting ethics involved

[lapis panther]

Did Roger fight Xebec before or after getting the One Piece?

[vestal orbit]

Before

[vivid forum]

as in did kaidou think he was joy boy? I read that like kaidou had been looking for joy boy among all the rookies that tried to take him down

[sand sail]

Given how Kaido wants to go about it, and how Big Mom is supporting it as well, along with it being bad enough for Roger to team up against him with Garp, it would seem more likely that Xebec's version of freedom was identical to Kaido's

[vivid forum]

but who knows, not enough info I think

[modest skiff]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

[sand sail]

If we get word that Kaido got his dream from Xebec, unfortunately that doesn't bode well for the theory tho

[azure maple]

That's how I read it originally but his flashback makes it seems like he thought he was going to be the one to change things

[vivid forum]

doesn't mean he thought he himself was joy boy, it could mean he was going to find joy boy (via the poneglyphs?)

[modest skiff]

Part of it might be that my ethics are not super normal. I think that if Xebec was willing to burn 50k people alive for long term freedom of the world, he was doing the right thing

I think its possible Garp and Roger were like

[sand sail]

Well it's not that he wanted to kill people, it's that his version of "freeing the world" involved the world not actually being free, just freeing it from the government so that either he or every other pirate could rule it

Which would explain why Roger would be against it, that's exactly the kind of "freedom" he hated, and why he fought against Shiki for example

Oh, Shiki also had the same idea

[modest skiff]

I think Xebec's view was the same as Luffy's. He doesn't care about ruling. He just knew there was some group of people getting in the way of global freedom. So first thing is first, mess those people up. Free people. Who cares what happens after that. So long as people are free, mission accomplished

If the world falls into chaos because of a power vacuum, it is still freedom and that is still better than being ruled

[sand sail]

I can't see that being a possibility at all if Roger were willing to fight against him to the death, though

It's not that the world would fall into chaos as a general side effect, it's that the chaos caused is exactly what they want to happen so that they can grab power during

[modest skiff]

I agree with you up until "so they can have power"

[sand sail]

The world being chaotic is just a symptom of the world, but there would be a power vacuum that Xebec wanted to be the one to fill

[vivid forum]

so your theory is xebec just wanted to dismantle the world government?

[sand sail]

Well, we know it's the case for Kaido at least, I believe it was said Xebec also wanted to be king of the world? I'll have to check

[sly mulch]

Post wano Zoro vs Fujitora . Who wins???

[sand sail]

My theory would be Xebec wanted what Kaido is currently aiming for, to create a lawless world of chaos where it takes power to rule, basically a pirates' paradise

[sand sail]

Not the channel for this.

[modest skiff]

I think Xebec learned about the void century and said "You know what? That's totally messed up. I am going to assemble a group of the baddest most powerful folks around. And we are going to kill whoever we need to kill to kick those dudes off of Marie Jois. Once that is done, I don't care what happens"

[sly mulch]

Which channel ?

[vivid forum]

if that was all he wanted to do I have a hard time picturing roger fighting to the death with him as well, that seems like the sort of thing roger would team up with him for

[sand sail]

Any of the other manga channels

[sly mulch]

Ok

[vivid forum]

sort of like kid and law and luffy teamed up against the marines back then

[modest skiff]

We know Roger tried to save a bunch of slaves at god valley, which also had a bunch of CDs around. I think Roger couldn't stomach the idea of non-pirates, VICTIMS of the CDs, being killed in pursuit of freedom

[sand sail]

Okay yeh, unfortunately it looks like his goal was to actually rule in the chaos that would follow

[modest skiff]

I don't buy a word Sengoku says

[muted ember]

Sengoku is a liar

[vivid forum]

oh so you think xebec was kind of like lucci, kill the civilians because they're too weak to defend themselves anyway and then kill the enemy?

[sand sail]

Nah, Xebec would've wanted to have a scorched earth policy. But this would make perfect sense, Roger would only need that as a reason to fight him

It falls in line with what we know as well, it's the same reason he fought against Shiki specifically too

[muted ember]

I think the government lies about pirates

[sand sail]

And it's listed as a major trait in his vivre card, that he hates the kind of freedom that's just subjugation

[modest skiff]

Letting a bunch of slaves die, intentionally, the primary victims of the CDs, is clearly going to be a tough thing to swallow. I think Roger couldn't let that happen. I mean think about it. If the whole idea is that the CDs are evil and terrible, how messed up is it to kill the people who suffered the most? It is the worst possible end to their lives. I can imagine both Garp and Roger being deeply torn about that. Xebec didn't care, because Xebec was smart. He knew that even if thousands of slaves die, it is still worth it. But Garp is a coward.

[sand sail]

Sengoku's a very reliable source in this instance, everything he says fits perfectly

[vivid forum]

oh, okay, fair enough I can see that as a theory

[sand sail]

I'm sure that's entirely part of it as well, but ultimately Xebec was Roger's first and greatest rival for a reason, and it's probably because of how he treated the idea of freedom

Garp isn't a coward, he actually chose the right side in that conflict. Most of the time, the marines are going to be the right side, since Xebec seemed to inspire that idea in the worst pirates out there since God Valley too

[vestal orbit]

If xebec/the rox pirates were good/had good goals I don’t see why the former rox pirates e.g. Kaido and big mom would hate each other after their crew disbands esp considering that big mom literally saved Jairo’s life

[modest skiff]

Bean, I think this all comes down to us disagreeing whether or not Sengoku is a reliable source of information. I say no, you say yes. Our theories diverge at that point. I would of course agree with you if I thought Sengoku was trustworthy. I think its just that we disagree on Garp/Sengoku

[sand sail]

Sengoku's never been untrustworthy as a source of information, though. Likewise, there was no reason to lie at that point, Xebec was dead and gone

[azure maple]

One thing I notice about a lot of theories is that Roger's actions must have been fully righteous. Is it possible he had a fatal flaw and that he and Xebec (and maybe Garb/marines) needed to meet somewhere in the middle or go further beyond to get to the actual utopian ideal of what freedom should be?

[vivid forum]

tbf about big mom, she thinks everyone should fall in line behind her and kaido doesn't seem down for that

[modest skiff]

I think in Japanese culture, it is common to lie about the dead, such as Fisher Tiger. Pride etc

[sand sail]

Kaido and Big Mom having the exact same plan to rule a chaotic world, along with Roger being willing to fight to the death against Xebec to prevent him from gaining whatever he wanted, lends a lot of credit to what Sengoku's saying as well

Fisher Tiger was lied about to make him seem better than he was, though. At worst, Sengoku held back that Xebec found out about the Void Century, maybe

[vestal orbit]

Fair, think trying to kill her for that might be a bit much for a normal person but then again they’re not exactly normal

[modest skiff]

At the end of the day, I won't pretend either of us know for sure. But just to be clear, if I trusted Sengoku, I would agree with you

[muted ember]

Big Mom doesn't want chaos her dream is basically for everyone to be equal, she just has a child like mentality around it

[vivid forum]

she wants everyone to play nice and do as she says

equal with each other, under her. not equal all around

[sand sail]

Big Mom wants chaos that she can rule, just like Kaido. That's a big pirate thing too, do whatever you want as long as you don't regret it

[modest skiff]

Anyone who has a friend who is autistic can see some very strong parallels. I hope this doesn't come across as me dissing on autistic folks, but BM strikes me as someone who is laser focused on a single objective and kind of loses track of why that goal is good to begin with

[sand sail]

Whitebeard had the same mentality, he just didn't want to rule over anyone

[modest skiff]

I think WB following the same dude as BM and Kaido is intended to give us hints perhaps Xebec isn't who we thought he is

[vivid forum]

I definitely agree with that, I'm in the camp kaido probably has a good reason for doing whatever he's doing, though trampling on wano was probably not the best way to do it

[modest skiff]

Either way, we are gonna get the Xebec flashback eventually. We will know what Xebec wanted at that point

[ancient vault]

He wouldnt have killed slaves if he wanted to free the world

[modest skiff]

I would have, in a heartbeat

[ancient vault]

Sengoku made clear that garp had to protect both the celestial dragons snd the slaves at that time so they werent really discriminating on who they were gonna wipe out on that island making them not so good people

[modest skiff]

It is just the trolley problem. If I kill 10,000 people to save 10,000,000, I did the ethical thing

[ancient vault]

Thats pretty lame. I dont see a reason why he‘d need to kill slaves in that moment but well we dont know the details. Either way I doubt a guy that is the „inspiration“ for blackbeard (most likely) was a good person.

We know he wanted to rule and if you‘d read my theory you would know that hes based on one of the most cruel pirates in human history that absolutely despised the spains that were the „authoritarian rulers“ at that time much like the WG

He‘d actually roast them alive and hunt them down

[modest skiff]

We don't "know" he wanted to rule. We know Sengoku said that. I dismiss what Sengoku said. If we disagree on whether Sengoku should be trusted, that's where we disagree and everything else is just a result of that

[ancient vault]

@sand sail dont click guys

[ancient vault]

I dont really see a reason why he would lie. If he were to lie he wouldve never admitted garp worked together with roger snd painted roger in a good light

[modest skiff]

Here's what we know about CDs:

1. Been ruling for 800 years

2. Works slaves to death so that they can move floors so that they don't have to walk

3. Steals women from their husbands after seeing them walking on the street, implied rape

4. kills innocent civilians on a whim

5. Funnels money from poor nations to themselves, causing hunger and suffering

For this to have gone on for 800 years, I can imagine why someone would say "So either this goes on for another 800 years, and way more than this many slaves die, or I end this right here and right now"

If Xebec made that determination, he was totally doing the right thing

[ancient vault]

He just came out of a situation where doffy he had the advantage of the WG lying for him absolutely destroyed a nations well being for his own greed. And we know sengoku learned of it at the end of dressrosa. I dont think hes the type of guy to lie about it now. He was never really but did before because of his authority and the commands of the gorosei

[modest skiff]

I disagree. I think he's made his choice which side he's on and he will defend it. I don't trust Sengoku at all

[versed hamlet]

Why dont you trust sengoku? Your point would have more validity i feel like **if **sengoku was talking to someone (or a pirate) outside of a private meeting regarding the past and old legends' bounties.

[modest skiff]

Because WB was shown to be a great guy both before and after going along with Xebec. That's the first clue. WB plain and simply would never follow someone who is evil

[ancient vault]

Idk where you got that from really. We‘ve seen him mad as fuck after marineford when the gorosei told to not report any of the escapees.
Now a days he has no responsibilities. Hes just a boomer who can talk as much as he wants. He doesnt have a reason to lie for the WGs image anymore.

[modest skiff]

I can understand why you think that and I am not convinced

[ancient vault]

We can also imagine whitebeard betrayed xebecs on god valley

[modest skiff]

i don't think it makes sense to assume WB betrayed xebec

[ancient vault]

The theme of betrayal is huge this src snd even in kaidos character prevalent so there must have been something that happened in the past snd that relates very well back to xebecs past. We know big mom would not hesitate betraying her ally for her own gain. She does it regularly and having whitebeard betray xebecs gives more credibility to the thought that garp and roger alone managed to defeat that crew because thats pretty hard to imagine remembering that rocks was rogers greatest foe and most likely equal to him. And then we had a garp vs big mom kaido whitebeard shiki etc.

[versed hamlet]

We actually do have reason to assume that considering this panel which gets back up by this

Additionally it would make perfect symbol sense as if whitebeard was the one to betray rocks, then it is the individual with rocks' inherited will to betray whitebeard: it's cyclical across generations

[modest skiff]

The prevalence of pirates betraying people does not mean we should assume WB betrayed Xebec

[muted ember]

He could be talking about himself since he ran away he might feel like he betrayed his captain

[versed hamlet]

Yes it is because that would make sense given the reveal was to be during the arc revolving around betrayal

[versed hamlet]

Probably not. Sounds like he was there and witnessed all of the events himself

[modest skiff]

I'm not saying what you guys are saying isn't possible. You could totally end up right. But based on what I have read and how I interpret it, I simply disagree

[muted ember]

He could have witnessed the events and still ran away

[ancient vault]

Its also about the iron clad rule on whitebeards ship. That rule most likely formed itself after being on xebecs ship where they would kill esch other constantly. Whitebeard most likely despised that crew a lot and formed s hatred against them so strong he implemented an iron clad rule that noone was allowed to break. And guess who breaks the rule years later? The guy that inherited xebecs will and now betrays him (fun connection)
Either way I dont think its a reach to assume whitebeard betrayed the guy that was killing his own crewmates since we know thats an absolute no go for him

[modest skiff]

So why do you think WB joined a crew he hated?

[ancient vault]

But thats the point. I dont understand where you get this interpretation because everything about sengokus character points to having a good heart snd lying only out of responsibility and duty to his role

[ancient vault]

The davy back fight. He was forced to. He didnt know xebecs. They all come together at the same tile on beheeve island. Whitebeards crew wasnt formed yet at that time snd they all came together to become rich snd famous (at first) tho xebecs clearly had other plans

[modest skiff]

I think we have simply read the story differently. I have come away from this story with Sengoku looking a lot less noble and ethical than you have. It isn't clear cut, a lot of it is interpretation. It is part of what makes One Piece so captivating, the mystery and the fact that we don't fully understand a lot of big characters. We will learn more as time goes on

[versed hamlet]

The davy back fight

[ancient vault]

Whitebeard was alone at that time. Or at least his crew wasnt formed yet. He only recently had gotten his crew. (Recently relative to seeing him in odens flashback)

[muted ember]

Sengoku destroyed Ohara which was all about covering up the governments lies

[versed hamlet]

that was not sengoku that did that

[ancient vault]

That was the gorosei. He has no say in that

[modest skiff]

If you don't resign after the Ohara incident, I don't know you could ever be described as ethical

He doesn't need to order it to be a part of the core organization

[ancient vault]

As I said he was only lying out of responsbility and duty to his role but we‘ve seen him changed after rhe past TS anyways

[muted ember]

He told Saul he was going to be a part of it and he ratted on Saul when he refused he was definitely involved

[ancient vault]

Then I‘d assume you think kuzan is also lying about stuff?

[modest skiff]

If "duty and responsibility" causes someone to be complicit in the Ohara incident, I have a hard time saying he should be trusted regarding Xebec

[muted ember]

He even got mad that Saul was questioning the government

[ancient vault]

Wasnt rhat kuzan?

[modest skiff]

Anyone who stayed with the navy after the Ohara incident, if they knew what happened and why, is not an ethical person

[versed hamlet]

Just because you do some "unethical" shit regarding an incident that you were completely uninvolved from that makes you untrustable then that makes literally nearly every single person in the story untrustable.

[muted ember]

No it was Sengoku, Kuzan was a vice admiral he didn't have the authority to authorize a buster call

[versed hamlet]

That was not the navy responsible, it was an order from the gorosei.

[ancient vault]

Then for what reason is he lying? If sengoku was so bad he would never ever admit luffy is doing good things

[modest skiff]

We disagree on that, and that's ok

[versed hamlet]

What are you saying lol

[muted ember]

He wasn't uninvolved

[versed hamlet]

It wasnt sengoku that did the buster call????????

[modest skiff]

You are saying someone's ethics allowing them to remain in an organization that kills an entire island of scholars because they learned information that might make a government look bad, does not make them untrustworthy. I am saying "Yes, it does"

[versed hamlet]

it wasn't the navy it was the wg lmfao, they are kinda forced to listen to them or else the world just turns to complete anarchy and chaos.

[muted ember]

U have to get the golden den den mushi call approved by an admiral. In EL, Spandam called it but it was pre approved by Kuzan

[modest skiff]

The navy did the deed, at the order of the WG. If you are someone who stays in the navy after that, I can't consider that person ethical anymore

[ancient vault]

If we see him being mad at that commands of the gorosei he can be trusted because now he isnt bounded by duty and responsibilty. If he wasnt forced he wouldnt have lied or made certain decisions.
Now sengoku is out of that role. Theres no duty or responsibility holding him back

Theres really no reason to lie because we know he wouldve never lied kn the first place

[versed hamlet]

Read what tsuru says. Sengoku has 0 reason to lie ""HAS NO RESPONSIBILITES WHATSOEVER""

[modest skiff]

swrml, the difference in our philosophies is that I think core ethics supersedes "duty and responsibility". I see no nobility or honor or anything in doing what you are describing. I think it is a sign of cowardice and weakness to do what they did for the sake of honor and responsibility

[versed hamlet]

Okay so great now have everyone in the navy leave and have the world turn into pirates world 👍 Great idea

So you think that by breaching those ethical boundaries you are untrustable about a completely unrelated topic

[muted ember]

It's not unrelated. Rocks was studying off limits topics just like Ohara

[modest skiff]

Describing the enemy of the navy (Xebec) as bad, and the navy as good, is basically the same dynamic as Ohara being "bad" because they threaten the WG. It is essentially the same situation. It is a matter of framing what does and does not destabilize the existing power structure

[versed hamlet]

Sengoku never even called ohara bad. he's just upholding what the WG required him to do. you can have different lives between personal and work

it isn't a matter of framing anymore because sengoku has no reason to frame as he has "no responsibilites"

[modest skiff]

You can, and if you do, you are a moral failure in my eyes. And by being a moral failure, I lose my ability to trust that person

[vivid forum]

I missed a lot of this convo but ??? I have to say I don't think the only ethical option was to quit the navy, plus it's established even if you want to quit once you get past a certain point they'd rather put you out to pasture to save face

one piece shows a lot of marine corruption but presumably they also do a lot of things like protecting people (and let's be real, pirates tend to cause a shitload of collateral damage), that's why coby wanted to join the marines to begin with

you can fix an organization from the inside, and you can have legitimate branches while other branches are corrupt

[ancient vault]

I get that and I don’t think I necessarily disagree with that philosophy tho I dont see it apply here. And sure while that might be bad I dont see your trustworthy argument. By your philosophy you can say Sengoku mightve been a bad person by his actions but being not trustworthy in his words does not apply here when he had always tried to be truthful with his commands and words out to the public but was always hindered to do so simply by responsibility and duty.

Hes not a saint. Thats clear and even if that was only out of duty and responsibility he still let through many bad things which you can see as a bad thing and I don’t particularly disagree. But I dont see that correlate to his words when we know he had always tried to stay truthful and post TS even had a change of mind in pirates with luffy and law in dressrosa.

Now with the rocks story. There was nothing holding him back. He can say what he wants now

[versed hamlet]

do you lose your ability to trust in garp then? he upheld the myth of him being the sole force against rocks (bad) according to media and roger is still painted a bad pirate. there are countless people you lose trust in then and at that point it becomes stupid. usually in lore dumps its oda's method of talking to the audience indirectly through trustable sources by setting up specific environemtsn and circumstances that would end up in them being fully trustworthy and reputable

[modest skiff]

Yes, Garp is an unethical coward in my eyes

[ancient vault]

The question whether you dont trust their words

[versed hamlet]

So everything he's said you can't trust?

[modest skiff]

Not everything, but everything with regards to pirate vs navy, yes

[versed hamlet]

What defines that for you the difference between trustable vs not

[ancient vault]

I dont think youre wrong with thinking hes bad. But I dont see the correlation with them not being trustworthy

[versed hamlet]

Morally, a good 99% of pirates are also unethical. That would imply that they arent trustable sources either

[ancient vault]

Also oda makes it very clear when garp is speaking bs about roger

[modest skiff]

In general I would say unethical behavior is either a direct or indirect result of dishonesty, whether internal or external. This is a bit of a loaded topic that might be beyond the scope of what we are discussing here. But the TLDR is that when someone allows themselves to do something that is wrong, they are failing to do the right thing. When someone fails to do the right thing for some reason, they are in many ways failing through the same mechanism that enables dishonesty

[ancient vault]

I also dont see why garp would tell stories about roger that would potray him as a good person like saying hes always there for his friends and ready to die for them

[modest skiff]

Because Garp and Roger agreed on the topic of Xebec

Xebec was a bit of a "where do you stand" topic, you either were in or you were out

Xebec, as I understand it, was an applied version of the trolley problem

[versed hamlet]

Also why would sengoku be lying on behalf of the wg to paint any sort of agenda when he's not only provoking the conversation about a taboo subject that the WG deliberately tried to censor but also outright stating it

Why would he be using WG propaganda when going against their wishes. there is no reason without using a really weak hypothetical.

[modest skiff]

There could be a lot of reasons. For many people, when someone has already ethically failed themselves, they commit to the decision and further entrench themselves. This is common throughout history. You commit to the decision you made and you try to make it the right decision. This is an unfortunate quality of cowards.

[muted ember]

He's only telling them now bc it's relevant, he's been going along w hiding all that information for 40 years and would've kept the secret if this wasn't the return of the Rocks Pirates

[ancient vault]

Then he wouldnt have applauded fujitora to the way he wnded dressrosa

[ancient vault]

Out of duty and responsibility. There was no reason to tell them before anyways tho

[versed hamlet]

Its not hidden information. Its just old information. The WG just dislikes any mention of the subject and sengoku had no reason to say it any other time.

[modest skiff]

It doesn't need to be 1-dimensional like that. It is very common for people who carry extreme guilt to laud people who make a different decision. Many people who hate themselves admire people who didn't make the same mistake or who have shown greater fortitude

[muted ember]

Dude u just shared a screenshot that shows the WG was hiding it lol

[versed hamlet]

The island is hidden not the info itself.

[modest skiff]

I think if we take this from a bird's eye view, we can see 1 side that consistently tries to suppress truth and another which is constantly pursuing truth. How can you guys really be saying "well let's trust the ones constantly defending people suppressing truth"?

[ancient vault]

Would you also call smoker not trustworthy to anything he says mohdoo?

[modest skiff]

I don't think Smoker knows anything of importance. I have long believed Smoker will leave the navy when he finds out the truth

[muted ember]

They hid the island bc of what happened there, what you're doing is semantics

[modest skiff]

Smoker will be one of the first to leave the navy when shit hits the fan

[versed hamlet]

The truth of the alabasta incident?

[ancient vault]

I think its pretty clear sengoku changed tho. Nor does he really hate himself he resents the mistakes hes done but he admits to them. Its not like hes holding them in internally

[versed hamlet]

No. its just old information. the island is the only thing deliberately stated to be hidden anyways this isnt the point of the discussion

[modest skiff]

He might have changed, partially, but I think he is fundamentally unable to completely go back because it would essentially invalidate his whole career

Ideas like this are a lot more common in Japanese culture than western culture

You kinda go down with the ship, traditionally

[pure raven]

information leaves the public eye quick

if you asked a 12 year old who qadaffi was they would have no idea

if you asked a 20 year old how the gulf war started they would have no idea

[versed hamlet]

Yes thats true that in japanese culture that you typically tend to the same ideals throughout your life but this isn't true across the board in one piece, and especially not in sengoku.

[pure raven]

basically i see it as if you wernt in the marines when rocks was prominent you most likely have no idea who they are

[modest skiff]

Just to be clear, I fully respect and appreciate the ideas you guys are describing @versed hamlet and @ancient vault . Again, I do not think I am 100% right here. I could end up wrong here. What I am conveying is my take on the story which is rich with nuance and mystery. I am not conveying absolute confidence but rather how I have read it. I look forward to us finding out the truth of Xebec

[muted ember]

Sengoku literally said they covered up the actions of the crew and they purposely hid his name just like Roger

[versed hamlet]

Just look at what fujitora says, the newer era of marines are trying to be more truthful about situations and if you consider sengoku and fuji's just overall relationship he would definitely agree with that statement too.

[pure raven]

the reason the WG doesnt dispose of kuzan or cp9 or sengoku is because they know too much and it would be suspicious if they just magically disappeared never to be heard of and then more peopel would start asking questions.

[muted ember]

The government covered up the actions of the crew

[ancient vault]

Yeah but he still had no reason to tell them about it. As far as we know there was really no reason to bring up the topic of rocks

Rocks name was def wiped out of existence similar to everyones out of level 6

[muted ember]

Bc the crew is coming back so it might be relevant to assessing their goals

[ancient vault]

The only ones that remember the level 6 prisoners are those that remember them and those that sneak around and gather nformation

[ancient vault]

Yes now. What i was talking about is before since your argument was that he didnt tell them until now

[ancient vault]

.

[pure raven]

There was a reason. Because two and formerly 3 of the yonko were part of rocks together and the current situation of big mom and kaido working together was a huge threat

[muted ember]

If he just wanted to tell them for the sake of honesty or doing the right thing he would've talked about it long ago is what I'm saying

[pure raven]

Why would sengoku talk to younger marines casually

[muted ember]

If he just wanted to do the right thing he would just do it not hold intel only when you feel obligated to talk about it

[pure raven]

You’re talking like sengoku is this benevolent force of good

He’s just a marine that’s been around the block and knows what happens when you ask too many questions

The younger marines didn’t fully understand the ramifications of the two yonko working together

He had to Lay out why it is worse than they could imagine

[distant mason]

Wano makes a good point for why pirates should be stopped as fast as possible

[neat inlet]

So I was thinking,
If indeed there is a connection between King's fire and Sanji's fire, with the recent reveal in the last chapter, does it mean Sanji might be able to alter the way he uses his fire in the way King does?

Meaning, he will become faster when not using the fire attacks, for example

Or maybe we were already shown that, he did sneak around when Queen was hiding, he was so fast Queen couldn't see him, and Sanji didn't use the fire at that time

[ancient vault]

IM SAYING BEFORE. Im not talking about the situation now

[ancient vault]

Why would he just randomly bring up topics that have absolutely nothing to do with the situation lol
Thats just stupid to expect from him or anyone

[lapis panther]

What was the deal with Kings body in the end?

[muted ember]

So then u agree he's not doing it just for the sake of being truthful

He's doing it bc he thinks it will help them decide how to counter it, has nothing to do with him wanting to tell the truth, since he would've kept it hidden otherwise

[ancient vault]

His time as a fleet admiral are over. Theres no other reason hes doing it other than him wanting to tell them and being truthful. Oda really jsut used this situation as a lore drop when in reality telling the marines about this thing doesnt really help their situation

It doesnt change a thing in their decision because only the old heads are in power anyways and they know about rocks. Look ar fujitora or akainu

[muted ember]

Sengoku said the reason he was telling them was so the information could help them assess their goals not simply bc he wanted to tell the truth

You're ignoring Sengoku's own reasoning

[ancient vault]

He never did it before because

1. out of duty and responsibility since its a taboo topic
2. there was never really a reason to tell them

[muted ember]

He tells Akainu he only told them to help assess their motivations, by studying their past motivations

[ancient vault]

Sure but I dont really see your point here? Your main argument was why he didnt tell them before hand and hes only telling them now because its relevant. But why would he tell them beforehand if it wasnt relevant? There were other discussions to be had instead of telling an old, dead mans story that has no purpose or relevance to the present at that time

[ancient vault]

And just because he didnt tell them before doesnt make him not truthful

I dont have to tell you every single detail of the knowledge I have on history to be truthful

[muted ember]

The point is you're saying he's doing it for the sake of honesty when that's not his motivation at all

[pure raven]

Why would he bring it up before? No one would know what he’s talking about except Tsuru or garp mainly.

[ancient vault]

I never said that. I said he has no reason to lie

[ancient vault]

In fact youre favoring my point. If he is doing this to help decide their next move I dont think he would lie to young soldiers with no decision power anyways

[ancient vault]

Thats literally what im saying buddy

And no the likes of fujitora or akainu would understand. They would just be like „cool story but why u telling us that now?“

Because it had no relevance to any of the problems before

[pure raven]

Ok. I think I’m just having a hard time following who is claiming what in this conversation.

[ancient vault]

My point is:
Sengoku had no reason to lie in chapter 957 but he also had no reason to tell any of the soldiers about rocks before kaido snd big mom teamed up

[pure raven]

Yea that’s exactly it

[muted ember]

U said "there's no other reason he's doing it other than him wanting to tell them and being truthful

[distant mason]

ulterior motives

Sengoku wants the marines to do something, but he's retired

[pure raven]

Ulterior motives that have never been established and there is no evidence I. The story that point to that

[distant mason]

so he wants them to see the danger ahead

[ancient vault]

True. Ig what I meant was more so he has no reason to lie to them in this situation

[pure raven]

Again the reason sengoku told them about rocks was to let the younger generation understand the severity of letting two yonkos team up

[ancient vault]

Im talking about the time as a fleet admiral. Tray was argueing why he didnt tell them before this incident and im saying why would he bring up a dead mans tale when he has other problems to worry about?
Seeing the danger ahead makes sense in chapter 957 not in chapter 305 or so

[distant mason]

Because the great balance was still fine

Punk Hazard kicked off a chain of events that stopped that

[ancient vault]

Yes therefore the argument being „sengoku is not trustworthy or truthful because he only told them out of relevance“ doesnt really make any sense

[muted ember]

He does though. If he wants those Marines to favor a certain action against the New Rocks Pirates, he will tell them just enough to encourage them to take said action, and frame the info so the action is justified

[pure raven]

Also oda was basically just channeling himself into sengoku to tell us about this character that existed in the past.

[distant mason]

also don't forget

this is pretty important info for the WG

[ancient vault]

What decision power do these marines have? None. Theyre gonna take said action whether they know about it or not

[distant mason]

as fleet admiral it would be difficult to go around disclosing these things willy nilly

[ancient vault]

The ones making the decisions are akainu and the other admirals at best snd they all know about rocks

[distant mason]

especially if it's not fully needed

[ancient vault]

Exactly thats why I was saying duty to his role and responsibility was snother thing holding him back

[muted ember]

Not necessarily, there's Marines like Saul and Smoker who would follow their own justice, so they need to be made to believe they are on the right side, even when they're not

[pure raven]

https://tenor.com/view/brickwall-brick-wall-talking-gif-13518551

[ancient vault]

These marines are clearly not the type to do that ss theyre fodder in that room anyways. But even then. Kaido snd Big Mom teaming up would have noone not even smoker or kuzan doubt theyre on the right side. All sengoku was doing was given context

[ancient vault]

Don’t be provocative

[pure raven]

Ok

[pure raven]

Don’t for getting fujitora too

[vivid forum]

man, the story sengoku told was short af and covered barely any details, he basically only says:

1. xebec wanted to become king of the world (this I think was the initial point that started this debate, someone thought sengokuu was lying about or twisting this point but I feel like it would be pretty easy to confirm)

2. whitebeard, big mom and kaido were on his crew (confirmed true)

3. this crew was a one-job crew (unconfirmed?)

4. garp had to work with pirates to defeat them

5. garp protected celestial dragons in the process

6. god valley was destroyed in the process and wiped off the map

there's not a ton of wiggle room for manipulation or lying here