manga-theories

[dusty shadow]

he also keeps looking at the moon which is kinda sus

[desert hatch]

ties into all the moons we saw in ohara library, maybe minks are aliens?

[proper crown]

Why an ally?

Wasn't his whole thing to go to the moon and come back to conquer the world or sum

[dusty shadow]

Those space pirates seem like foreigners first of all. Since the automatons seem like the true indeginous people. Second if Enel wants to conquer the world, the world government is a common enemy and the moon seems pretty end game stuff

[pastel summit]

Because Enel went to the moon, and learns the history of his people, and the reason why they left the moon in the first place.

which is going to tie into the ancient kingdom, which is going to tie into One Piece.

[proper crown]

That's a good theory

[dusty shadow]

See

that guy was arguing and doubting me, and now he's probably looking up how the scientific theory works

[pastel summit]

If Enel himself comes back, it's likely because he became invested in that. I don't believe in the moon destruction theory or w/e, which forces him to come back.

[dusty shadow]

I feel the straw hats are on their way to the moon tbh

[proper crown]

Enel would play a huge role in the war if he were to come back

[pastel summit]

and if he comes back because he's invested in the history of his people, that'd put him on the side opposing the WG.

[proper crown]

so where are all of the 4 road poneglyphs

[pastel summit]

I don't think the SHs will go to the moon, but the story of what happened on the moon will be important.

[proper crown]

they got 1 from big mom, one from the minks, one from fishman island, and where else

[dusty shadow]

I dont think he cares about these robots or their history

[pastel summit]

that's before he learns it though

[dusty shadow]

His motivations I feel are still the same

[pastel summit]

the end of his story is him having a legion of the automatons under him AFTER he learned the history.

[dusty shadow]

To rule the world. Its just that I think he is going against the world government which is a common enemy to the straw hats

[pastel summit]

sure. That's what I said though.

I still think if he comes down, it'd be due to an investment in the story.

[dusty shadow]

But what's definitely now strengthened is the connection between Vegapunk and moon people

[pastel summit]

Also for the record, it's not the story of the robots. It's the story of literally his descendants. Birkans, Skypeians and Shandorans were the 3 groups of people that made up the moon civilization.

the robots were likely some kind of slave workers. which were left dormant for millenia, and enel revived them with his powers.

[dusty shadow]

yeah

but also there's parallels between vegapunk's history and the moon peoples history (lacking resources). But that's looking for evidence for my theory rather than against it

[pastel summit]

and here's where I go into heavy speculation, where I believe that "God" was a term used on the moon civilization, that referred to someone with the Goro Goro no Mi, because the civilization ran on electricity. And thus, whoever controlled electricity, controlled the civilization. And then those stories were passed down into Birkan legends. Since the moon civilization was called Birka, same as the place Enel was from. and that could tie into Enel doing what the previous gods couldn't, and going down into the blue sea.

[dusty shadow]

Also where is @pure raven now? He seems to be quiet for someone who was at my throat minutes ago

[keen portal]

Vegapunk's lack of resources is not at all similar to the moon people's lack of resources.

[dusty shadow]

Ya I know its weak

[pastel summit]

Vegapunk lacked the funding and resources to realize his creations. The moon people most likely literally could not survive

and HAD TO move to the blue sea in order to... not die.

[dusty shadow]

You never know though. If those people are decendents of moon people they might be reminded by vegapunks situation and be more empathetic towards him

[keen portal]

The descendants of the moon people settled on the sky islands tho. We dunno if they lived on the land

(Apart from Shandora ye.)

[pure raven]

Do you guys think the Strawhats will ever go to any of the other "blues" or return back to the east blue for a brief period? I think them mentioning how the Navy does it is going to play a part some how.

[pastel summit]

we know some of them did elv. shandorans

[dusty shadow]

Well, thats the theory we're talking about. What kind of connection the people of Karakuri have to the moon people.

[pastel summit]

the only connection is the old man who sent robots similar to the ones on the moon.

[pure raven]

Cause I got better things to do and talk about than indulge in your misconceptions on how arguments are formed and made

[dusty shadow]

But you see its your misconceptions that you need to indulge in (not mine, look up Carl Popper and falsification)

[keen portal]

Ye. But they still had their trademark sky/moon people attributes, like wings. The people of Karakuri island don't.

I don't think they're literally descendants of the moon people. Allied/chance meeting with them, perhaps.

[dusty shadow]

true, maybe mixing of races perhaps? It's weird how they can work with ancient tech and the old people keep looking at the moon

[pure raven]

You are pushing that there is a connection between Vegapunk and Moon. I say nay. You say prove you right and I say thats not how arguments or science is done. You say nay and thus I take my leave if you non science man

[dusty shadow]

I dont think you know how the scientific method works dude. Look it up

[pastel summit]

he's not really working with it though. He's recreating it. Likely his own creations, which just happen to be very similar to the ones on the moon.

[dusty shadow]

is he?

[pastel summit]

y'know, history repeats itself etc.

[pure raven]

I dont think you under stand the concept of burden of proof

Or how experimentation to proving theories or finding evidence that actually works to support said theories

[dusty shadow]

I dont think you know what falsification is

[edgy knot]

Question, what is in your opinion the best animated One Piece episode

[pure raven]

We know dinosaurs exist because we found their fossils. We know roughly how old they are from rock samples, water and element sediments and much more. All this from seeking out and proving evidence. Old ppl used to think it was bones of dragons and they were wrong. And it was rectified.

[dusty shadow]

The faces of those robots being exactly the same is also history repeating itself?

[pure raven]

You are at the dinosaur bones = dragon stage of science

[pastel summit]

Well, like I said earlier. If we assume the automatons on the moon have been there since the old civilization, that's been AT LEAST 1000 years. Since we can date Shandora on Jaya back to 1000 years ago, could be older. The ones that the old dude sent up likely came around the same time as Enel, since they were only recently discovered by the new moon people and then those dudes started to destroy them.

[dusty shadow]

You keep believing that and leave the scientists to actual science. While you can pretend to know science.

[pure raven]

Spoken like a man who thinks vaccines are made through ppl saying they work rather than having them actually tested out and experimented

[edgy knot]

@pure raven but he is right, we humans first discovered dinosaurs in fossils

[gloomy canyon]

ok let's keep it to one piece please guys

[pastel summit]

So unless the old dude has some kind of blueprint for the automatons from the moon civilization that dates back AT LEAST 1000 yrs, then I'm pretty sure they're just separate things that happen to be similar. It ties back to the ancient kingdom being technologically advanced, if they could make robots that only people 1000+ yrs later could recreate.

[edgy knot]

Oh yes sorry about that

[dusty shadow]

Right those recent ones happen to have the exact same faces right. And also look exactly the same (size and shape) as the ancient ones

[pastel summit]

Yeah. Could just be a coincidence.

[dusty shadow]

Keep thinking that bro keep thinking that

[pure raven]

Just like how almost every hot young woman looks like nami or have the waist line the size of a spine

[dusty shadow]

Thats very unlikely.

[pastel summit]

It's very unlikely if you remove the fact that this is a story.

[dusty shadow]

sure dude. Just come back to me when you've learned something new in your life (like the scientific method, look up Carl Popper dude)

[pure raven]

Oda is pretty bad at drawing women. I thought that was agreed upon and he suffers typically from same face syndrome with them

[pastel summit]

It's a very simple way to tie in that history repeats itself, by literally making it repeat, with the exact same robots

or to tie in that the moon civilization was more technologically advanced, by having someone only be able to create literally the exact same robots, 1000 years later.

[pure raven]

I look at you and think of you as a very sad dude who thinks science is stated rather than refined and experimented on. And one who is incredibly getting on my nerves. Like an anti vaccer yelling about their rights as people die around them despite the mountain of scientific proof and evidence that “covid kills ppl and vaccines save lives”

[dusty shadow]

Well when I read those cover pages I see. Robots from from advanced island. Then I see exact same looking ancient robots on the moon...

[dusty shadow]

yeah sure judge me all you want. But urm when you actually get graduate from college I'd like to have a conversation with you then

[gloomy canyon]

Kaeore and Plank, please keep it to one piece and stop flinging shit at each other about who knows more about scientific methodology

[dusty shadow]

sure dude, but he started with the attitude

[pure raven]

You started it with actual shit logic description

[dusty shadow]

^^^ see

[gloomy canyon]

that's fine, but try to keep it to one piece instead of making it a he said she said thing

[dusty shadow]

I dont have to, he's proving it for me

[pure raven]

He’s not disproving that the one piece is hidden up his extremely tight pretentious idiotic asshole

[gloomy canyon]

ok blank slate, just move back onto one piece. Choc is engaging with you in an interesting theory discussion

and cool it with the personal insults

[dusty shadow]

hey that's a swear word, watch your language

[pure raven]

At one point there were probably 6 moons, did 5 of them get destroyed?

[gloomy canyon]

are you referring to the geocentric model during the Ohara flashback?

[dusty shadow]

Maybe that think was just cool prop in ohara

[pure raven]

i dunno... i think it somehow relates to the clans in wano

[pastel summit]

I've thought about it. There's a tiny possibility, but I don't really like the idea. Like, that there were 6 moons, and different civilizations came down from each and inhabited the earth.

[pure raven]

they could have all originated on a different moon

[dusty shadow]

I think theres just one moon honestly

[gloomy canyon]

We only see one moon in the sky

[mellow sapphire]

wait what is this like

[dusty shadow]

I think that was just a cool prop

[gloomy canyon]

I also think there's only one moon, and only one moon that will be relevant

[mellow sapphire]

Kozuki are aliens theory?

[dusty shadow]

Also the professor liked to look at the moon, and he made robots. I doubt he made the exact same robots independently

It feels more likely he has a connection with the ancient moon people

and so there for the people of Karakuri island

and therefor Vega Punk

[pure raven]

i kind of wonder if a lot of people in the world of one piece had ancestry that originated as aliens... there is definitely going to be some connection to the moons and the different groups of people ...it's just really hard to say .. i saw one theory where only the giants and fishmen originated on the planet and everyone else is from the moons/space(that is highly speculative)... there is going to be some weird twist with the moon/moons though

[keen portal]

Elaborate on that. Connection how and what

[pastel summit]

Possible. Are you trying to say he observed the other moon robots, and then recreated them? But they were dormant until Enel came along.

[dusty shadow]

How am I supposed to know how?

[pure raven]

there's not a lot to go on other than the moon is important somehow

i do think laughing tale is either going to lead to the moon or be on the moon

[grim sleet]

There hasn’t been any reference to the moon or whatever besides Enels side story. It sort of takes away from the sea/pirate theme in my opinion

[dusty shadow]

I dont think he's been to the moon. I think this information is passed down. Seems more likely. I doubt the people there can easily get to the moon

[keen portal]

sigh specify what you mean by connection.

1. Did he just read blueprints of ancient technology
2. Did he reverse engineer the automatons himself
3. Did someone from the moon literally tell him how to do it

[dusty shadow]

also how is enel able to create an electric powered ship that can fly? Technological information passed down by moon poeple

[pastel summit]

technology doesn't need to be passed down though. that's the point. it's been over a millenia since the ancient civilization on the moon was active.

[dusty shadow]

How am I supposed to know? I'm just pointing out a connection. I'm not the writer

[keen portal]

You're the one making the theory.

[dusty shadow]

He needs to somehow know how to work with that tech

[pastel summit]

Or... he can just be the inventor of the tech?

[dusty shadow]

Do I need to have a full flegged theory? Why cant I point stuff out and you decide on your own theories?

[keen portal]

Why are you getting defensive lol. I'm just asking you to elaborate on what you mean

[pastel summit]

it's like saying if the technology behind the toaster was lost, no one would ever be able to create a toaster without the original creator's help.

someone else can just re-invent it.

[dusty shadow]

sure but i say thats unlikely given the robots look the exact same with astetics, and he keeps looking at the moon

[dusty shadow]

because i'm afraid im gonna be attacked again. That dude left me in defensive mode

[pastel summit]

and like I said, that can just be oda going for a symbolic approach that literally the same tech was created, just 1000 years later. to represent how advanced the moon civilization was.

[jovial hare]

I tried looking it up after seeing this name dropped a few times, it's actually Karl Popper btw

[dusty shadow]

oh shoot sos thanks

its falsification in the scientific method that Karl Popper was a proponent of. An effort to seperate science from pseudo science

[dusty shadow]

Sure I get what you mean, but the fact that he likes to look at the moon adds to his connection on top of the robots

[pastel summit]

Yeah. it could be related. We don't really know. I think he was just inspired to create something to reach the moon, and happened to create robots that looked exactly like the ones on the moon. They could be related though, I'm not going to deny it. It'd fit with my theory I'm trying to work on but too lazy to put everything together atm.

[dusty shadow]

does your theory involve Buggy becoming the king of the pirates?

[pastel summit]

no

[dusty shadow]

I'd throw it away then

[pastel summit]

[keen portal]

I won't deny the possibility of there being a connection or something to tie the people of Karakuri island or vegapunk to the moon people. Since there's really nothing too substantive for or against it to change my mind as of now

But since you made the theory I think it's only fair you also elaborate a little on said connection or how it would come to be so.

[pastel summit]

honestly, at this point, I'm not even making a theory, I'm just making connections without an overarching theme. I just keep finding weird shit that's possibly related.

[dusty shadow]

In my head, the people of Karakuri may be advanced due to inheriting information about the technology of the moon people. One of the civilasations maybe their ancestors or friends or whatever

[pastel summit]

like this. the unknown connection no one talks about.

[dusty shadow]

I dont wanna limit what I'm thinking to some specific theory or else I'll be too close minded

[pastel summit]

but idk how it's even relevant to anything.

[dusty shadow]

what is that?

[keen portal]

You don't have to be close minded, just put forth your current most likely explanation

And it could change if we get more info.

[dusty shadow]

I like to keep things open. I dont like to make claims which i cant really speak about like how these two are connected unless I've thought of something concrete

[pastel summit]

sea cats. the home of the sea cats had a poneglyph. Their home was some kind of underwater ruins, and it had a poneglyph that may have been deliberately placed there. If you assume that in their natural place, all poneglyphs were placed in specific locations for a specific reason, you can say that the sea cats were related to the void century. And we know that in Alabasta, they worship the sea cats for some reason. They think they bring luck or something. So this could lead to a connection between Alabasta, the sea cats, fishmen (since the sea cats are underwater), and the void century.

of course, this is assuming that the poneglyph jinbei found in the sea cat ruins has been there since the void century and wasn't moved there.

[dusty shadow]

this looks familiar

[pastel summit]

yeah I thought about that oo

[dusty shadow]

is this the cover story of Jinbie with the big man baby

[pastel summit]

Yeah

[dusty shadow]

alright lets look at that, I remember being confused by it

what chapters? Was it Punk Hazard?

[pastel summit]

751-785

[dusty shadow]

wayy offf

[dusty shadow]

@pastel summit what chapter did that image come from?

OH

thats Alabasta

[teal nymph]

i think maybe even the celestial dragons are not from earth given then wear a space suit

[pastel summit]

Yeah. That's showing how deep rooted the connection between Alabasta and the Sea Cats is. They are even shown as symbols of reverence, putting them in the tombs of their kings.

I just am not sure how everything ties together.

and that image is from ch. 202.

[dusty shadow]

You think that Oda has an actual script for the ponygliphs that we can decipher?

[pastel summit]

I doubt it lol

[dusty shadow]

btw with 26 ponygliphs you can make the shell of a 3x3x3 cube

with 4 you can make a 2x2 cube

[dusty galleon]

That's probably just playing into the Egyptian mytho

Not saying it's entirely unrelated, but the connection probably isn't as strong as you're suggesting

Alabasta is based on Egypt so it would make sense to have cat deities and what not

Even nefertari name is associated with egypt

[pastel summit]

Sure, it could be. but poneglyphs have relevance. I doubt they were randomly scattered. I'm pretty damn confident that each place where a poneglyph was put has some relevance to the void century.

specifically, each place which had a poneglyph 800 years ago.

[dusty galleon]

Yeah like I said I am not saying it can't be related, but if that is the only link I am gonna be kinda sceptical

[pastel summit]

I'm not saying it's a big thing, but it's a possible connection to the void century, one which could link Alabasta to Fishman Island. We have connections between Shandora and Wano, Wano and Zou.

and we know both Alabasta and Fishman Island have heavy ties to the void century.

the sea cats are just a link.

[dusty shadow]

I think Captain Johns treasure is the key

to it all

[pastel summit]

why?

don't think john is related to any of this. don't see how he would be related to any of it either.

[dusty shadow]

Its purposely set up that way

Buggy (aka future king of the pirates) is the only guy really after that treasure. Everyone else wants the One Piece. But Captain Johns treasure is what they should actually be after

[pastel summit]

just gonna remind you.

[dusty galleon]

Beat me to it xD

[dusty shadow]

it is a serious theory

[pastel summit]

so assuming you can read and this is a serious theory, I don't see how Captain John is related. Considering he only died likely a couple decades ago, and he was killed for his greed. I'm not sure how it's related to the void century.

[dusty shadow]

I've always thought Buggy was gonna become King of the Pirates

[pastel summit]

okay, but we know captain john's treasure isn't relevant to that at all.

[dusty shadow]

But it's relevant to Buggy

and we dont know what Captain John found either

and... we know people like Noland find all sorts of things like Shandora

[pastel summit]

okay, so are you suggesting his crew was some kind of scholarly crew then? Why would they mutiny over his treasure if it wasn't gold?

[dusty shadow]

Who knows what kind of crew Captain John had, all we need to know is that Buggy knows how to be at the right place at the right time, and he knows to go after the right things

hes not after the One Piece for a reason

[pastel summit]

cool, so you have no actual theory, just a baseless claim, based off another baseless shitty meme.

[dusty shadow]

baseless claim? Your opinion. Meme? Memes can turn out to be true

[dusty galleon]

What is the basis of your claim then?

[pastel summit]

Not an opinion, you literally have no base for it. self admitted.

Who knows what kind of crew Captain John had

[dusty shadow]

Buggy becoming the king of the pirates

[dusty galleon]

That is your claim

[dusty shadow]

Just because that's not the base doesnt mean I dont have one

[dusty galleon]

What is it based on? Base is supposed to be factual

[dusty shadow]

thats not the claim being discussed

[dusty galleon]

If your claim is based on another claim which doesn't have a base, it's a baseless claim

[dusty shadow]

no that claim has a base too

[dusty galleon]

Which is?

[night jewel]

hey, plank, you dont have to try so hard to defend a meme, i would recommend leaving this channel if you are going to continue memeing like this, thanks 🙂

[pastel summit]

You're making a baseless claim, based on your claim that buggy becoming king of the pirates has to be true. So you're making a baseless claim that he will become king of the pirates, then assuming that is 100% factual, and then stating because he has to become PK, it means something that he has pursued, Captain John's tresure, has to be relevant, while being unable to provide any actual support for how either of those things would be true.

[dusty shadow]

Buggy's character, encounters, supposed 'luck', relationships... it'll take a while to expand upon all of that

He's stuck around for a reason

[dusty galleon]

The mods have spoken. Beware

[pastel summit]

why is any of that relevant to becoming PK?

[dusty shadow]

She's not a god, that's shirk.

oh you corrected

[dusty galleon]

Mods, I mean mods

[dusty shadow]

I mean I completely believe this theory btw. Like this is not a meme for me

[pastel summit]

His character is one that barely even pursues One Piece, or the Pirate King. I think Buggy has only mentioned Pirate King like, once. His goals are purely material wealth.

then I'm sure you have proper reasoning, and you're not going to just say "sorry I can't explain pls just believe there's a base trust me"

[dusty galleon]

@pastel summit

He's already said that😂😂

[pastel summit]

because right now, it reads like a shitpost, and all you're doing is trying to defend your shitpost as serious, but being unable to actually say anything that makes it seem serious, instead just reading like a shitpost.

[dusty shadow]

thanks

[pastel summit]

He's not defending you.

[dusty galleon]

Anyways what actual theory were we discussing before this?

[pastel summit]

sea cats

[night jewel]

continue onwards with your original theory choc

yes, sea cats

[pastel summit]

I don't really have much to go on though. There's more in the rabbit hole I might bring out later, but for now it's sea cats.

[dusty galleon]

I do think the poneglyphs aren't just scattered at random

[pastel summit]

I'm going to assume since their home is specified as "ruins", it means they're old. and thus they've been there for a long time, which ties into them being there since the void century. and also ties into them being untouched. So I'm fairly confident the poneglyph was always originally from the sea cat homes.

[dusty galleon]

But I am just not sure about the sea cats specifically

[pastel summit]

Well, it seems more like a general sea creature habitat?

[dusty galleon]

Also, as for the ruin part, I am pretty sure it was mentioned soemone attacked the village which is why it was in ruins?

Around which chapter is this cover story?

[pastel summit]

No. The ruins were initially in the sea. Then Wadatsumi chucked them, and it landed in the village. Then sea monsters attacked the village.

751-785

[dusty galleon]

Oh okay makes sense then

[pastel summit]

https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Solo_Journey_of_Jinbe,_Knight_of_the_Sea easier to just read it here imo

So it's not just sea cats that live in the ruins, but general sea creatures. So specifically sea cats can be related to Alabasta, but my thing is more with the location of the poneglyph, and Alabasta worshipping these specific creatures which live in an area in which a poneglyph was placed.

[dusty galleon]

Just went through it

It does seem likely that it must have been some.place of importance to have a poneglyph placed there

Plus the ruins look like a temple or a church or something like that

[pastel summit]

So we can make a general connection between these sea creatures and fishman island I think. Like, we see a fair amount of them hanging around in that area, and jinbei can also seemingly communicate with them, which can suggest a degree of ability within fishmen species to communicate with them. and then we can make a connection between Alabasta and this place, because Alabasta reveres the sea cats. So this place can be something that links Alabasta to Fishman Island.

[dusty galleon]

So that would go with the usual theme of poneglyphs being located at places of spiritual importance

[pastel summit]

Like beyond just "oh, they're both countries related to void century"

[dusty galleon]

Like the golden bell, the sea forest

And it was in the royal tomb in Alabasta right?

[pastel summit]

like, you can say the same thing with Wano and Shandora, both were countries related to the void century, but when we got that "Land of Gold" revelation for Wano, immediately you can say "oh, is that related to the city of gold? Is Wano linked to Shandora somehow?"

Yeah, it was the royal tomb. and I didn't even think about it being in a place of spiritual importance. true.

[dusty galleon]

Like all the poneglyphs we have seen that haven't been moved around by yonko or whatever have been like that

[pastel summit]

Even for Zou, it was placed at the heart of the whale tree, which seems to be like, the centre of Zunisha, and the place where Momo more resonated with Zunisha.

[dusty galleon]

Yeah that too

[pastel summit]

I don't want to go into the golden bell rabbit hole yet, but I have some spicy ideas for that one.

[dusty galleon]

Interesting

Maybe some other time lol, gotta get back to work

[pastel summit]

good discussion. enjoy your work.

[pure raven]

Usopp has to develop armament haki at some point or he we never evolve

and it's gotta be before he meets his dad

[twilit matrix]

dont see why is that important if he dont use hand to hand combat what so ever

[limber latch]

I feel like Robin should be the one that learns armament haki instead of Usopp

[glacial vapor]

yea and ussop should develop get future sight

[pure raven]

Cause armament haki makes your snipes stronger... he could add it to the projectile

he has a hard time inflicting a ton of damage really and in fights he's not really that effective

he needs an upgrade

that or his observation haki is going to go off the charts

he's not wrong when he thinks of himself as weak.. I think nami offers more to actual combat than he does ..he has to turn into a warrior before elbaf which is where i think shanks is going to be

i don't see big mom or kaido getting out of wano... there will probably be some sort of davy back fight in elbaf with the shanks crew... if i had to guess it'll be over the last poneglyph

and usopp v.s. yasopp is going to be one of the big matchups

the davy back fight with foxy was to show how they work as a precursor for what happens with shanks.. everything in oda's story has some sort of significance

[weary cliff]

I'm still not convinced armament will be that important for Usopp with his pop greens

[pure raven]

It's almost like people think you either have haki or you're complete fodder

I'll never understand it

[craggy pumice]

me neither

[pure raven]

there are other characters that use non hand to hand weapons and armament

[fringe tide]

So was there a reason given for how luffy is able to hit/react to kaido in his base form? When before luffy needed g4

[pure raven]

He's using advanced armament and imbuing conqueror's haki into his attacks

[wicked grove]

He’s combining armament with conqueror’s Haki

[fringe tide]

Coa+coc= speed boost? I get how hes matching kaidos attack, i just dont get how base luffy is keeping up with kaidos speed

[pure raven]

Future sight

Notice how Luffy is very calm

You need to be calm to tap into observation haki

[wicked grove]

He’s using all 3 forms of advanced Haki while in his base form so it lets him be quicker and stronger

Like how Roger’s crew was able to become Pirate King level by mastering those forms. It’s what Luffy is trying to do right now

[pure raven]

seriously, without tama.. would usopp be making that much of a difference in the raid?

[fringe tide]

G4 luffy with future sight wasnt able to dodge kaido in base form, luffy said he could see the attack but couldnt react at all, so how is luffy suddenly faster now

[pure raven]

This is headcanon.

[pure raven]

He's getting used to Kaido's speed

[wicked grove]

Is it? My b

[pure raven]

there's like these group of people that think characters have to stay the same because they are fine just the way they are... they can't evolve at all

[maiden ingot]

That was luffy in base in 1001 and it slightly grazed him

[fringe tide]

Was it? Guess i got that mixed up lol

[pure raven]

i mean if horselina is using armament haki on arrows i don't think it's a stretch that usopp uses haki on his snipes

@ kaido's speed... he was trying to dodge and avoid before, now he's blocking

[weary cliff]

The difference is that any offensive power of Usopp comes from the effects of his projectiles, not how hard he's hitting. And I don't see armament transferring to a giant venus fly trap for example

[pure raven]

tjat

that's not his only projectile... some of his projectiles often bounce off and don't do what they are supposed to because of haki shielding

he's either going to get armament haki or his observation haki is going to go into overdrive

[dull pumice]

Yasop deserves a beating

Imagine if Usop made a child with Kaya and then left with Luffy

[maiden ingot]

Deadbeat in his blood

[pure raven]

i think the concept of family is incredibly important for usopp.. kind of like how he freaked out about merry, I couldn't see him leaving his kid

usopp kind of lost everyone, which is why he knows what it feels like

[terse garnet]

Just read through the Zoro Enma Theory.. First of all, props to the one who came up with the theory 🤟
Second of all, what makes Rayleigh possessing conquerers valid and Zoro not ? Because he was serving under the one who conquered the world? IMO it's simple maths, if Rayleigh got it than Zoro should also get it some time in the future. They are portrayed the same way.. Just think about how Roger and Rayleigh met, and compare it to Luffy and Zoro, both first mates thought they were joking and crazy, both Zoro and Rayleigh were shown loyal to their respective Captains and have an intimidating personality..
To conclude what I've theorized, just as Rayleigh unlocked CoC, Zoro will also unlock it once the time is appropriate..

[grizzled fog]

Second of all, what makes Rayleigh possessing conquerers valid and Zoro not ? Because he was serving under the one who conquered the world? IMO it's simple maths, if Rayleigh got it than Zoro should also get it some time in the future. They are portrayed the same way.. Just think about how Roger and Rayleigh met, and compare it to Luffy and Zoro.

That’s not really how it works, being “first mates” to the pirate king doesn’t automatically give you conqueror’s haki, nor does it really matter if they’re portrayed the same way, it’s about having the qualities of a king

[amber oar]

if you ask me Ray only has CoC because the plot required it.

[nimble hinge]

I'm not even entirely convinced you need the qualities of a king, whatever that is supposed to mean.

[grizzled fog]

Personally I think we’ve seen a bit more charisma and “qualities of the king” from ray than we have zoro, I’m fine with him having it

[kind gate]

tbh its just who Oda wants to have it

[amber oar]

At least he's nicknamed Dark King, I wonder why

[vestal isle]

zoro has conqeuror's qualities, you dont become the best swordsman in the world by accident

[nimble hinge]

Rayleigh, Ace, Katakuri. None of these characters really have qualities that I'd label as kings. At least not qualities that aren't present in others

[kind gate]

huh

[amber oar]

strong =/= conqueror

[dense wing]

Katakuri is a leader within the family, Ace is Roger's son, and Rayleigh is the weakest link yeah but who knows why he's called the Dark King

[amber oar]

Katakuri does have leadership on him, his siblings look up to him over other elder siblings.

[kind gate]

yh I wouldn't say rayleigh exudes any kingship qualities so far
its prolly just being able to impact your will unto others to a certain degree

[grizzled fog]

Disagree, katakuri protects his siblings and leads them, Ace.....seriously? Dude was incredibly charismatic, led his own crew, feel this is obvious. Ray is a bit less clear ig since he’s closer to a loner like zoro, but he’s still shown more charisma and leadership, particularly in the flashback

[nimble hinge]

Countless characters have people that look up to them.

[amber oar]

Usopp has more people looking up to him than Zoro

[nimble hinge]

So is it just characters that are charasmatic and others look to?

Because if that's the criteria, plenty can get CoC and no one should really be complaining

[autumn igloo]

You got a link to the Enma theory?

[nimble hinge]

It's pinned.

[vestal isle]

haki means willpower, i would assume the conqueror's willpower would be being able to stand above other people, whether that be through leadership or strength or both

[amber oar]

it's the other way

It's not that charisma and leadership gives you CoC. It's that the ability to develop CoC is manifested via charisma and leadership attributes

The fact stands that one in a million are born able to develop CoC

[vestal isle]

yeah im saying those are the qualities you need to obtain CoC

[nimble hinge]

At no point in the series, is the term born with used to describe CoC

[kind gate]

was the garp thing a mistranslation primal?

[nimble hinge]

Are you talking about marine Ford?

[lunar whale]

What'll happen to Onigashima once Kaido has been defeated?

[kind gate]

yes

[craggy pumice]

Destroyal

[amber oar]

Wrong

[terse garnet]

I get the point of being a conquerer in order to possess it.. Thus no marine was shown possessing it because they don't have such desire
But as for Rayleigh and Zoro, I would love to see Zoro showing of the same feats as Rayleigh

[kind gate]

same feats?
please expand on that

[craggy pumice]

holding off Kizaru

[grizzled fog]

Like what? Destroying a collar? Fighting kizaru? Honestly forcing zoro to be an exact copy of ray by replicating everything he does sounds bad

[nimble hinge]

Chapter number?

[amber oar]

569

Oh, at the next page the word "Innate" is used

[amber oar]

570, not 569, I was wrong. Last page of 569 was when he used it

[nimble hinge]

Innate doesn't mean born with. It just means natural in this context. I'm looking for the raws, one sec

[amber oar]

"Umaretaka". From Sogeking's opening I guess this mean "to be born"

[kind gate]

@sturdy hound sorry to disturb
can you confirm?

[sturdy hound]

yea that's correct

[kind gate]

okay primal I guess you're wrong
thanks MUP

[sturdy hound]

npnp

[vestal isle]

but it makes sense that CoC is something you're born with. it would be kind of cheap if you could just train to get it.

obviously you have to awaken it, which i like, its not like you can use it from birth but it should be something you're born with

[zinc iris]

yeah it was just so he could teach luffy about it

[zinc iris]

conversely now you have a power tier accessible only if you win the superpower lottery

[vestal isle]

i see your point but idk if you need to be superpowered, you need to have an inherent will to stand above others

[zinc iris]

sort of, but it already diminished zoro that was the guy that got there by effort, and now he just won the bloodline game otherwise he was just going to be a shitter

[amber oar]

I want somone to be poweful af without CoC. Maybe Teach

[zinc iris]

all of this is almost making me throw my hands up and stop to care about the thematic consistency of all of this
might as well make zoro a direct descendant of ryuma

[vestal isle]

zoro has wanted to be the world's greatest swordsman since he was a kid. training to awaken it is one thing but if you dont have the qualities of a conqueror you wont be able to use it

[zinc iris]

Oda choosing for someone else than Luffy to be Roger's son that died mid story was not a masterstroke but just a fluke

we naruto now

[zinc iris]

zoro only got true determination after kuina

[vestal isle]

no he didn't, he wanted to be the best even before she died

[zinc iris]

no he was just a kid over his head

without being clapped by kuina and then bonding with her and then her dying after their promise he would not have found a sound motivation

[nimble hinge]

Couldn't find raws but looks like you posted them anyways.

Multiple meanings of innate. Does not only mean born with. Fairly obvious the second definition is in use here considering its not a behaviour, but an ability. The second definition also matches Rayleigh's description of CoC.

Even the first definition, the one you'd like to use, doesn't state its something only from birth. Rather it can also be something that is determined by factors present at birth.

Garp does say born with in the raw translation. But now you have two conflicting pieces of information. The actual explanation of CoC which says nothing of birth. And Garps statement where all he's really saying is "so you do have it" worded vaguely to confirm a suspicion

At no point do I think that's enough to claim its an ability one most be born with, because the three other explanations of CoC we get, all fail to use the term born. Rayleigh in particular suggests the opposite.

Not to mention all the issues that pop up when you ascribe the requirement of being born with it to CoC

[weary cliff]

What's the source for this conflicting explanation that suggests you can develop it?

[nimble hinge]

There's a few. The first is namely that we've seen multiple characters awaken and develop the ability. Second is the fact that there's no solid source claiming its only from birth. Even the garp panel is ambiguous because it can read in two ways. And finally, there's the actual explanation of CoC the author gave through the Rayleigh exposition that again fails to mention that it's an ability you are born with.

His wording actually suggests the opposite. That CoA and CoO are the two forms of haki that everyone is born with. But a third exists that people can possess.

One that is rare, and exists primarily and commonly amongst a subset of people.

Whether you take that to mean CoC is something you are born with and so you will become a big name, or to mean those who become big names are bound to awaken CoC is your own prerogative. But to suggest it's only from birth is headcannon for the time being.

[weary cliff]

I guess I meant if you had the panels on hand, because I've never seen any interpretation other than its something you're born with.

Honestly, this argument as I understand it seems like semantics anyways. If there is a type of haki that only certain people have, that you cannot train, and is tied to your natural characteristics, it all seems like the same thing. If the same factors you're born with will both lead you to being a big name person, and developing CoC, then CoC is practically something you're either born with or not

OP seems to play around with fate and determinism anyways, so in that context literally anything is something you're either born to do or not

[nimble hinge]

The inability to train it is also a misconception. You can train it. Luffy literally does train it. That's how he is able to control it and apply it actively rather than passively. What you cannot do, is make it stronger directly. You can make it stronger, but only as a result of making yourself stronger in general.

[manic relic]

I dont know if I missed him but who the hell is condiriano or something? Some people say that he is stronger than Shanks. Is this true?

[pure raven]

Yes.

[nimble hinge]

It seems like semantics, but there is a genuine distinction between being born with the ability and being able to awaken it. Being born with it then creates issues of hereditary abilities. It also suggests its not an ability you worked for, but were rather given by fate, which in general is very against the themes of one piece and its characters

[zinc iris]

it's a meme about a character from the G8 filler arc
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Shepherd

[zinc iris]

well it happened for Ace

he just awakened it as a kid and was the son of roger

[nimble hinge]

Being born with factors that can determine CoC is more in line. Because just having those factors isn't enough. You have to nurture and develop those factors enough to awaken CoC

[zinc iris]

then you have katakuri son of linlin that also has it

[sand sail]

The thing is

The only emphasis for it has been on being born/destined because you have it

Everything we know about conqueror's haki points directly to it being a matter of birthright and not something a person can just achieve if they are willful or charismatic enough

[nimble hinge]

That's exactly my point. When making it a hereditary ability, you create lots of issues. Why don't all of Katakuris siblings also have it?

[zinc iris]

also @nimble hinge even making it about "genetic co-factors" still detracts from the theme of the story because it still is a superpower lottery

[nimble hinge]

Those simply give you a headstart. Having them isn't enough.

[sand sail]

You can say it's headcanon that it's not, but the fact is, there's absolutely nothing to suggest it's not something you have to be born with in order to achieve

[nimble hinge]

And those lotteries exist in other aspects you're born with as well.

[zinc iris]

and at that seems to be one lottery you need to win at to succeed in the OP world, unlike Devil Fruits that have Armament Haki as an equalizer

[zinc iris]

so someone without CoC can win the raid against Kaido?

[nimble hinge]

Which is my whole point? You can't claim its something you have to be born with when both things are still possible.

[nimble hinge]

Depends on what you're trying to ask here. Are you suggesting that only CoC users can fight other CoC users?

Cause we already know that's not the case.

[zinc iris]

the CoC chapter almost implies zoro and luffy are managing to significantly wound him only because of their access to CoC

and not even the devil fruits became this bad

[amber oar]

Good lord, this week I've had to read

• The person in latest ep with the same clothes as Yamato, same beard as Yamato's mask, and at the same spot Yamato was shown in the manga, wasn't Yamato

• CoC is not a birth ability

And it's just monday noon

[nimble hinge]

Several characters have already wounded him. Kidd who's seemingly done the least damage actually has CoC. Kaido has lost several fights in the past. Garp is never stated to have CoC and has beaten those with it.

[pure raven]

almost implies
doesn't even imply imply

[sand sail]

No, my point is you shouldn't plant your feet into "It's possible" if it's an extraordinarily low possibility.

[zinc iris]

because Logia is good, but someone that reached enough strenght in Armament can still win against a Logia user
and good enough Armament makes you imprevious to the hax powers like Sugar's bullshit

[sand sail]

Yeah, there's a chance it's not hereditary in some way, but there's genuinely no reason to think so at this moment

[weary cliff]

I would argue against that last point. Fate is very much a factor in OP. Roger discovered he wasn't the one fated to do whatever it is Luffy will do and that was his irony. The sea kings knew when Shirahoshi was going to be born because it was fated to happen. Having a power that's only given out by fate isnt far a stretch

[sand sail]

It certainly doesn't make someone suddenly unassailable, it just makes it so someone who instead lucks out with an invincible dragon fruit or being born invulnerable to most forms of damage doesn't get guaranteed the highest spot in the world

With no possible way of throwing them down

[zinc iris]

haki being accessible made it so everyone can train hard enough to stand a chance against top tiers without having to win the DF lottery
and now there is the CoC lottery

[nimble hinge]

If you're suggesting it's hereditary you have plenty of questions to answer. Why only certain children possess it. Why children of those who didn't, do.

[sand sail]

Those aren't hard to answer at all

[zinc iris]

and you know, if it is going to be a bloodline power, it was better when it was fodder clear because it was more of a cool badge rather than a hard requirement to win against the strongest opponents

[sand sail]

It's not a guaranteed trait being passed on, obviously

Which means if someone's parents don't have it, they just didn't activate/inherit it themselves

These really aren't problems for it being a birthright at all tbh

[nimble hinge]

He ascribes to fate coincidence. With his logic, everything can be ascribed to fate. He also believes his son is fated to fulfill it. Look how that works out

[sand sail]

There's no real problem with it being something that can only be given through birth, and several people have made direct reference to being destined/chosen by heaven/naturally born to it

In fact, the first chapter it's named is called Natural Born King

[nimble hinge]

Except in that case, it's statistically going to be passed onto everyone. Over time, everyone will be born with it and it becomes a matter of awakening it anyway, which is ultimately how I'm saying it works anyways

[weary cliff]

Sure Roger didnt have all the answers, but that doesnt mean there aren't answers. You may not like it, but there is a prophecy unfolding in OP and that means it was predetermined to happen and so fate exists

[sand sail]

Not at all, no. If it's something that only rarely ever gets passed on, that easily solves the problem

[whole palm]

i think its just a general fear of one pieces power level scaling ending up just being a shitshow of "intertwined destinies" and nothing more. just like other shounen. like "oh luffy didnt win because he trained hard, he was born with this mcguffin so he was destined to win!"

[nimble hinge]

Again, mistaking correlation for causation.

[sand sail]

As opposed to the thought that you don't have to be born with it, in which case you can theoretically guarantee everyone actually will get it

[nimble hinge]

You just said it's always passed on, even if parents didn't awaken it. That's bound to make it more and more common with each generation

[sand sail]

Oh, also, it wouldn't make any sense at all for children to be awakening it more often than anyone else if it weren't something innately born to them

[nimble hinge]

That means every child will have it. And their children and so forth.

[whole palm]

like i personally wouldnt mind if its a birthright or not, but i do feel the whole "power from birthright" thing is slightly more tropey

[sand sail]

No, it's not. If it's equally rare for each generation to actually have the ability awaken, then 100% successfully passing it on will never guarantee that everyone has it, ever

[nimble hinge]

All of BMs children have it and their children will too

[sand sail]

This chance doesn't necessarily come with a guarantee that it'll increase in chance for any real reason

It's not like multiple conqueror's users are breeding together specifically with that goal in mind, for example

[nimble hinge]

Activating it isn't a requirement to passing it on. As you just said

[sand sail]

And if it's passed on but not activated, it's irrelevant

[nimble hinge]

Which is exactly my point lol

[sand sail]

That means those people may have some hidden spark of it somewhere that will never ever awaken, in which case it doesn't matter that they have it anyway

Which means having it be a birthright quality is even less of a worry

[zinc iris]

this

[nimble hinge]

If it's passed on to more and more people with every generation, but only a fraction awaken it each generation, having it required to be a born with ability becomes pointless

[sand sail]

Not at all

[nimble hinge]

In that scenario, everyone is born with the ability to awaken it.

How does that not make the requirement pointless

A requirement that everyone naturally passes over time

[zinc iris]

my issue ultimately is

it's a power level tied to a lottery, it's not something that can be potentially be reached with training as previously established you either are born with CoC or no
but before this it was just a cool badge, now it's something that is required to be at the top instead of just giving an edge, undercutting the underdog theme the story is attempting to push at the same time

[whole palm]

i guess it would mitigate the "he won due to birthright and nothing else" argument if it was latent in everyone, but only triggered by select few with high willpower.

[zinc iris]

btw @nimble hinge if we want to be very pedanting on genetic inheritance, only half of the genes chosen at random are inherited so it's not impossible at all some children end up not having one of your traits

[weary cliff]

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by this. But I don't see how how you're arguing against this concept when the sea kings, Sharley's predictions and apparently the real poneglyphs are all pointing at some predetermined events unfolding

[zinc iris]

so that some of the children of big mom didn't inherit the "CoC gene" can have happened

roughly half of them should not have it at all

[pure raven]

I always thought of CoC is just being a quality solely tied to having the disposition to stand above others. So in terms of needing it to reach the top, it doesn’t seem like a requirement as it is just how things naturally play out.

[zinc iris]

but then you might get CoC after undergoing an opportune personality change

[nimble hinge]

They're pointing to an inevitability. Whixh is easy to mistake as predetermined. Neptune is born again and again. People aspiring to change the world will always exist. A history and guide describing how to do such a thing will always exist. That's how it's been set up

[weary cliff]

Except its not framed as just an inevitability but rather "this is something that will happen and this is exactly when it's going to happen"

[nimble hinge]

All those things are going to line up at some point. Me rolling a 6 on a die isn't fate. It's inevitable.

[whole palm]

i think overall its less about science and genetics and more about the overall willpower of an individual and whether or not it makes them worthy to inherit coc (whether its a latent physical ability or something passed down by greater beings i think is irrelevant)

[pure raven]

But the ability to stand above others is portrayed as being something organic, it doesn’t seem like something that someone can pull out of their ass at any given moment.

[sand sail]

Because that means not everyone in every generation gets the ability, even if everyone in only some lineages do. Likewise, it may not pass on 100% either, I could've just been wrong about that

[amber oar]

That's not even how genetics work IRL. For starters any given gene has just 50% chance to be passed on. Probably half of BM's children don't have any CoC gene, at all, if such thing exists.

And then activating is another matter, because there's this concept called recessive gene, which means the gene is there but won't activate because there's another dominant gene, thar comes from the other parent, and will prevail over this.

So no, an hypothetical gene that passes down CoC does not guarantee the person will ever have the ability to awaken CoC. They may spend their entire life pushing themselves and it won't awaken. The gene is inactive. The person just doesn't have CoC, by any account.

The same way a blond person can have non blond children and those children will never grow a single blond hair

[zinc iris]

well not at any moment but people change personality over the years usually

[sand sail]

But even taking that out, we're not losing any of the premise. The gene doesn't have to be passed on 100% of the time, and if it is it's clearly not something everyone can activate

Likewise, you can't possibly deny that it's something people are picked for in some way when every single instance of prestige surrounding it is in fact based on how they were predestined for it in some way

[nimble hinge]

I just explained how the will happen part isn't fate but an inevitability. The when part is the only argument for fate. But considering we have seen characters able to predict the future, it's equally as difficulty for me to say knowing when something is going to happen is fate, when it's completely possible to know when

[weary cliff]

Its only possible to know when because it's a certainty to happen at that time. that's what it means to be predetermined or fated to happen

[sand sail]

It seems like a lot of this is based on a hyperbolic projection that if it's gene based, somehow that means everyone will get it, when that's not the case for anything as far as genetics is concerned

[nimble hinge]

I'm not going to get into gene science in one piece. Just look at the sizes of people in one piece.

I'm not even claiming its a gene

[sand sail]

You're not, but these are the problems you're presenting against it being a gene

These problems aren't actual problems, none of them would apply to this situation

[nimble hinge]

Katakuri can see an attack happen before it happens. That attack isn't fated to happen just because he knows it's going to happen. That is just him seeing the future

[weary cliff]

That's literally what it means. And that's my cue to stop having this discussion

[zinc iris]

actually katakuri acting on his sight invalidates it because that future happened when he wasn't doing anything about it

eg the priest didn't shoot at all after katakuri flicked his bean at sanji

[sand sail]

Primal's right here, that's not what it means. It's not fated to happen, someone wanted it to happen

The difference being, the attack can be stopped

[zinc iris]

this is more of a malleable timeline rule or the future sight is just an educated data projection of events

[sand sail]

Something fated implies inevitability

It's the difference between a fact and opinion even if an opinion can be accurate, if that makes sense

[autumn zinc]

so...sea kings can see the future ?

[amber oar]

Another thing. Very often a condition isn't even down to a gene, but down the combination of a set of different genes.

What if the condition to get CoC doesn't come from one single gene, but a set of, say 10 genes. And you need those exact 10 genes to be passed down. So each of those genes has a 50% chance to be passed, which means the chance of all 10 to be passed is 1 in 1024.

And when you account for the other parent, it's another 1 in 1024. Funny enough, when you calculate the probabilities, the result is pretty close to the "one in a million" stated in the manga. This works even under the assumption that the genes required to have CoC are scattered across most of the population.

I am pretty sure Oda didn't think any of this when throwing that line, he's not a genetics expert, I'm just describing how it can be played realistically the idea that only one person in a million presents a birthright condition.

[nimble hinge]

The gene aspect isn't the issue. The issue is that it being a birthright is irrelevant narratively. It serves little purpose and will never have any strict rules. You're not going to look at a child and be sure they have CoC just because a parent did. Likewise, just because a parent didn't have CoC doesn't mean you can now rule out the child.

It's a completely pointless requirement.

And it's only considered one because of vague terminology

[zinc iris]

The issue is that it being a birthright is irrelevant narratively
rather it matters a lot about the implications in terms of what story you want to tell

[amber oar]

So, now you went from "CoC isn't birthright" to "it's a irrelevant and pointless requirement"

[pure raven]

Maybe it’s not “genes” but the will that gets passed on generationally?

[nimble hinge]

You're missing the word because connecting those two statements that I've made present from the get go

[zinc iris]

if it is a bloodline/birthright power it means "character X won using a bloodline/birthright power" even if you can massage the story enough to have character Y turning out to also have it all along

[nimble hinge]

Any character can have CoC and no one will question their birth or family tree to show why it doesn't make sense

[zinc iris]

and god I hate the #other-series rule so much for preventing me from getting my point across on why it becomes a problem

[amber oar]

The problem with that is that you inherit a will later in life, not when you're born. The implication (and more than implication, what has been explicitly stated, despite Primal's goalpost movements), is that CoC users are born with the ability to awaken it

[nimble hinge]

Sole implication being garp saying so you've had it all this time, worded ambiguously so it reads both as a personal confirmation or an implication of its requirements

[amber oar]

I feel it should be revised anyway, sometimes it's needed at the time of making a point

[nimble hinge]

Everyone else describes it as rare, amongst the chosen ones, and common in those who make a name for themselves

Of which only the second can be stretched into birthright

[amber oar]

What garp said wasn't an implication, he explicitly said it

The other instances have been implications, you just ditched them because they didn't use the literal words "born with", but pretty much imply the same

[sand sail]

That's not the sole implication, almost every time it's been noted as something prestigious it's been noted as something someone was destined for or naturally born with the qualities for

[whole palm]

like i said, even if it is something that is inherited (regardless of how it is interited) i think its less about "oh they were born with it so they win" and more about "their willpower is so strong that they can overcome/control this power" so it isnt simply just some deus ex machina that saves the day

[amber oar]

Garp. "So you were born with it"

"it's an implication, it doesn't confirm shit"

[nimble hinge]

Right, but those aren't the same thing. Born with the qualities of a king, isn't the same as born with the ability to use CoC

One leads to the other. Which is the whole point of awakening it

You don't come out the womb using it. Which we've seen been possible for other forms of haki

[whole palm]

like its more of a personality thing rather than a physical "i win" gene? is that what youre more or less trying to say?

[sand sail]

Except every time, they're specifically correlated, implying that what you need in order to use conqueror's is something you were predestined to have

It's not like they're ambiguously connected the two, 9/10 times birthright is mentioned

And you damn near do come out of the womb using it if 8 year olds are activating it with no training

Which points even more so to it being something innately bred

[nimble hinge]

Right, correlation. Not a one way causation. The arrow goes both ways, not just one

[whole palm]

i guess it could just be kind of like, people in the universe trying to rationalize the willpower of a person being attributed to some "the sea made this person strong" type thing

[sand sail]

No, the arrow goes exactly one way. In no instance ever is there any implication besides you have been born with it, whenever a source is cited

Literally none at all

[sand sail]

Could be, but also can't be, because children awaken it

[nimble hinge]

Born days ago, and an 8 year old with a well defined will power and personality. Precisely the same.

[amber oar]

This dude said a while ago"innate" doesn't mean from birth

[nimble hinge]

I posted the definition. You chose to ignore. You can keep up the passive aggressiveness. It doesn't make you more convincing

[celest spade]

whooooooo

you kill him with that last phrase

[whole palm]

yes, but i know coc is highly attributed to willpower. and the few cases it was shown in younger people was due to a high will in wanting something (i.e. luffy having huge willpower in keeping ace safe at marineford, or ace trying to keep sabo and luffy safe as a child)

[amber oar]

ehh... you chose to ignore the one that didn't suit your agenda, despite of being, by far, the most common use of the word

[nimble hinge]

The one you posted in response to me saying there's more than one definition. Yeah, you really showed me there

I even addressed that version of the definition when I posted all possible definitions of the word. But we can ignore that

[amber oar]

I mean you have ignored a lot of evidence so far, a bit more doesn't hurt right

[slate zodiac]

Who do you guys think is joining the crew?

[nimble hinge]

Key word being evidence. Most of it being effective as your passive aggressive posts and attempts to bait

[celest spade]

Maybe O-Tama

Or Carrot

Hey Long Jhon Silver

[nimble hinge]

One way arrow means : this sentence can only imply that many of those who have made a name for themselves have done so because they were born with a power.

I'm saying nothing in that statement rules out the idea that those who make a name for themselves can and are likely to awaken this power.

I just don't see enough to say the arrow points in only one direction.

[nimble hinge]

Another pirate fan. Nice to see

[zinc iris]

carrot

[supple nimbus]

Carrot + Yamato + Momo

[pure raven]

Kin'emon for nakama and nobody else

[zinc iris]

Kin'emon should just

[dusty galleon]

His home would be 6 feet under now, since Tsuru is ded

[mild kite]

I don't think tsuru is dead

[drifting cape]

Ok ok I have a pretty great theory

Let's go back to Fishman Island. The vision Madam Shyarly had.

I believe this will happen after Wano. We know Blackbeard is making a move but we don't know where, I believe that since BlackBeard knows Big Mom is busy, BlackBeard will raid Fishman Island causing havoc and burning the place up. This gets caught on by Luffy and they sail back to Fishman Island to protect it, because if Big Mom gets defeated from the Onigashima War, then he can own Fishman Island. They show up and Madams vision is in place. Fishman Island is a burned mess and Luffy is enraged by this. He asks who did this and the survivors say Blackbeard.

This is when Luffy might call in someone to help in Fishman Island, like the Straw Hat fleet or someone else to help them. The Straw Hats take off to confront blackbeard when he gets a call, Blackbeard picks up telling him he will be waiting for them at Lodestar Island. Tells him to be prepared for something like nothing he's ever seen. Since Lodestar Island has islands like Elbaf and God Valley on the way it wouldn't be that stupid to assume they can stop there before going to Lodestar Island. Luffy still wants an adventure and he can put aside a fight as long as he is confident enough he will win.

I dont think this will EXACTLY happen but I think it's a pretty good theory for the ending of One Piece.

[vestal isle]

why would blackbeard go all the way back to fishman island

[drifting cape]

I explained that

[vestal isle]

im pretty sure he's going to find the seven warlords so he can capture them

[vestal bone]

Shirahoshi cuz ancient weapon and all

[vestal isle]

yeah but just because big mom is not there is not a strong reason, he has other things to do that are far more important

[drifting cape]

Yes but he is definitely trying to avoid conflict with other Emperors because he has only ever interacted with Shanks in the 2 years

[vestal isle]

that i could see. still though im pretty sure he's going after the warlords

[drifting cape]

I'm interested why you think he's going after the Warlords, to recruit them?

[vestal isle]

well first of all that's what the wiki tells me

[drifting cape]

Here are his reasons to go to Fishman Island.

1. Big Mom is busy so it's a pretty good raiding place because almost all territories in the New World are protected under Emperors

2. Shirahoshi, ancient weapon

3. The vision that Shyarley had has to take place, and Luffy is definitely the savior in the vision and not the cause. I dont know what else would be important enough to set havoc to Fishman Island

[drifting cape]

Lol he never said what he was doing

[vestal isle]

1. bb is obviously making a bigger move than going to raid a place for treasure, 2. okay i could see that, 3. she clearly states that the man wearing the straw hat destroys fishman island

[drifting cape]

It's a vision interpretation

Never spoke to her in the manga or anime

[vestal isle]

you're right about he never said what he's doing, it is pretty unclear, but it is worth noting that this comes in the same chapter as the dissolution of the seven warlords

in other words, whatever blackbeard is referring to has something to do with what happened at the reverie, and I can't see fishman island being an important part of that

also, returning to your original theory, if blackbeard does destroy fishman island, there is a 0 percent chance luffy is not going to kick his ass right away, he wouldn't stop at elbaf

[pure raven]

I have a theory, weird theory but.. maybe there's some truth on it :

"If you’re familiar with Icelandic mythology, you know that the Necropants are a weird tidbit of Icelandic folklore that tie into the country’s beliefs about witchcraft. To obtain this fine pair of legwear, you have to be a witch first. After that, you must obtain the permission of a man to get his flesh after he has passed from this realm. That’s when the real fun begins.

Once the man has died, you must take his corpse and flay the flesh from the waist down in one piece. As soon as you’ve managed that, you put on the skin-pants and then place a single coin stolen from a poor widow into the scrotum. The coin is to be accompanied by a magical seal, which will result in your new scrotum-wallet never running out of money so long as you never lose the original coin."

The one piece could be a manual on a poneglyphe telling that joke, with a necropants. the manual could also be known as "laugh tale"

Joy boy Used to tell everyone that tale back in time, that joke goal was to make people smile, it was actually giving him more joy than anything in the world, this explain a little bit why he has been given the nickname of "joy" boy.

During war time, I think joyboy could make people laugh, even on the brink of death with that joke, and this is why, he decided to put it on a poneglyph, at the end of the world, to save that joke, to create a memory for all the joy given from the people and all the people who laughed at it.

This is why the island of the one piece has been called Laugh tale by roger.

(and there's double meaning, because with that joke, you are getting, forever, as soon as you do not retire the piece, a piece of joy, and a joke).

And I think there's also a double meaning as the one piece being a physical item illustrating a single piece of joke, making people smile forever and the fake "smiles" brought by the smiles, those synthetic devil.In one piece, all is about smiles, laugh, dreams, and willpower, so why not a joke about a legend that a man, tried to conserve, with all his willpower ? By indicating instructions all over the world for bringing joy to only people who are capable of dreaming, to find it ?(It shows something really valuable : smile, and genuine joy, even for a man on the brink of death like roger)

I know I'm crazy, but still, I feel there's a hint on that crazyness, the icelandic tale is very dark, but, still, it could be a lighter version of it ?
we are going to elbaf, kind of nordic land

[drifting cape]

It has really barely any evidence in the anime and manga, but your theory is pretty good. Did you say anything about the one piece being a physical treasure tho?

[pure raven]

Actually such a joke has to be on some physical support, it could be a variant of the theory I've done

But I don't know man, all in the manga, is about joy, freedom, willpower, and smile... weird ?

[drifting cape]

Yeah, that'd be really cool if Oda pulled it off well but it'd be underwhelming a bit.

What you said was like a better ending to AOT (if you read aot)

[pure raven]

hahahaxD

ending are most of the time flawed

But I think oda is going to do something very unpredictive

[drifting cape]

One piece is about freedom and adventure, so something like that does embody the show

[pure raven]

Yep, but it has to be something physical, that they can take with, this is why the idea of "a physical piece of joke" like the ridiculous pants we are talking about (I mean, I don't think the one piece is actual pants, but maybe a representation as a physical piece of joke) has to be carried on

and the one piece could be everything, like some physical money, ect..

• a fucking joke, but in a physical form

sorry for the picture, didn't mean to post that image, just the wiki link
just search for "Nábrók"

And this is a perfect running joke for luffy and his centaur thing

anyone thoughts on it ?

[drifting cape]

That would be sick to have something like that, deep meaning summarized in a joke object would be pretty satisfying

[pure raven]

yeah I think too, It's actually one of the most satisfying thing I've found

and it's rememberable, I mean.. who is gonna forget that ?

[drifting cape]

Roger also says he wanted to live in Joy Boys era

It also has to be something Roger was too early for

[pure raven]

yeah also, this is the tricky part

but maybe is it some kind of manual ?

Like a joke, + a manual to change the world or something like that ?

[drifting cape]

Imagine it's a manual for a certain date and the joke is that the end product of it is something funny

Like the 3 weapons were for nothing

[pure raven]

(if the one piece would be some normal object, it would be easy to loose, it has to be something that can go through ages)

[pure raven]

it would be amazing

but actually pluton, has been made for something

[drifting cape]

The 3 weapons were to have a banquet with the entire world,

THINK ABOUT IT

THE BIG BOAT, Shirahoshi the sea kings attracting the whole sea to one location

And the other one I forgot

[pure raven]

we actually don't know what is the last one

Oh shit I just had some revelation.

Don't you think the revery could be about the antique weapon on alabasta ?

[drifting cape]

Uranus?

[pure raven]

yes

[drifting cape]

It would make sense

[pure raven]

it's like the most interesting fact that could happen, something about that

I think that when we want to predict oda, we have to search for the most unexpected and yet, interesting, fact

[drifting cape]

It would make so much sense tho if the One Piece was just a banquet, a massive worldly banquet that attracts everything to one location

Could also be plausible for Sanjis All Blue

[pure raven]

and still that fact has to be potentially conductor of other interesting unexcpected facts,
it's like oda writing is :

an open door,

giving on a piece,
that has an open door
giving on a bigger piece

every piece, is the choices of oda, and this is why it's unpredictable, we can"t really predict with accuracy, too many variables,
but we can predict his moves with 2/3/4 walks

[pure raven]

All blue has to be about the op

but maybe it could be something really amazing

like, some actual living water, Or I don't know, maybe the "domain" of the king of the sea ?

they have to come from somewhere actually (I don't think they are coming in calm belt, they are living there but not coming from)

[drifting cape]

What if Joyboy in the past built the ancient weapons and used them for the soul purpose of a massive banquet

Then he described them as something they weren't (massive destruction weapons) for the future to figure out

Hints why people know about the All Blue

It happened before

[pure raven]

ho

https://tenor.com/view/hmmm-mmmm-interesting-batman-gif-11990772

[drifting cape]

And the joke is the ancient weapons were used for nothing more than a banquet

[pure raven]

so..

what uranus could be ?

a giant fridge for giants peoples ?

[drifting cape]

Something with the weather

Maybe to like make it a nice day out for the banquet lol

[pure raven]

it also has to be some kind of ice-maker

would be cool for drinks

but.. I think only the weather is not cool enough

if you want to do a giant party, you have to have giant supply

giant, fridge, giant kitchen, giant everything

[exotic echo]

how would joyboy have "built" poseidon

or used it for a banquet

[pure raven]

it's a fish

[exotic echo]

or pluton, for that matter

[pure raven]

very simple use case

[exotic echo]

i'm saying "built"

you don't create a mermaid with special powers yourself, I'd imagine

[pure raven]

pluton has been built by tom actually

[pure raven]

this is some detail I think, its like the will of the d

maybe the will of fiesta ?

[exotic echo]

[pure raven]

but still look at my theory

[grizzled fog]

It has not been

[pure raven]

indeed, it has been designed by carpenters

joke apart

looks at my theory folks, it's pretty big, and upper on the thread

[vestal isle]

the one piece is a physical reward or object of some sort

[pure raven]

that's what I said

[vestal isle]

you said it was a joke, which i don't think fits the description

[pure raven]

have a good night

[winter herald]

I have a theory for Zoros ashura. Since his “extra” swords disappear I think that it’s an illusion manifested by his conquerors haki and his will is so abnormally powerful it seems like there’s 6 more swords that’s how much pain and pressure he’s inflicting on his opponent. I cant wait til they explain this ability in more detail.

[grizzled fog]

We’ll probably never get more details on asura lol

[winter herald]

well is my theory good?

[grizzled fog]

Heard it before, not bad, but it seems pretty weird that zoro is the only one in the entire series who’s capable of manifesting his coc in this manner as far as we know, and he doesn’t even know he has coc on top of that?

[winter herald]

that was a bit weird tbh

[young trout]

Its probably the same power as oden

Not really coc

[zinc iris]

and also used as early as enies lobby

[dusky acorn]

It being an illusion Zoro manifests is something we already know, but it always being due to conqeurors haki goes against the explanation Kaku gave us. If there was any sort of haki involved, especially one as rare as conqeurors haki, he would have noted that

Not to mention going against what we know Conqeurors haki itself is. It's not something that can create doppelgangers

Thinking of it as Zoro's general will is much more practical than delving into hard specifics. Doesn't seem like it's going to get a more concrete explanation than that, especially since we may only see the move one or two more times in the story

[cedar sinew]

Eh I wouldn’t say kaku would necessarily be able to tell it was conquerors haki even if zoro used it during EL

But yeah it definitely has to do more with swordsmans will and more importantly zoros ferocious presence

Not only have auras been generally prevalent throughout zoros fights as well as his attacks (a lot of them are named/formed after an animal), but it also matches up with the kind of stuff he was able to pull off against Monet. Imposing your will on someone.

[grizzled fog]

? Oden had coc, he never did anything weird with it

[onyx fjord]

okay this might sound like a stretch but could you interpret this set of panels from loguetown chapter 97 as further proof for the recurrent theme of inheriting wills in one piece

[cedar sinew]

not really lol

inheriting someone's will is in the context of after death

not that it really needs additional proof anyway when it's been directly stated multiple times

[real swan]

Honestly lately Ive been reinterpreting the inheriting will thing as sharing or taking on someone else's dreams. There's a lot of emphasis on having dreams and how even in death they won't die out, like the monkey bros and finding the gold/sky island.

[bronze spoke]

I have a sudden feeling Prometheus is trying to help mother caramel's soul that is inside bigmom (theory) and hence the reason this new thundercloud isn't as naive as zeus is coz of caramel is trying to interfere in taking over bigmom's body. In the fight when she is vulnerable is when she wud get the chance to probably.

[real swan]

Also was thinking more on the whole Blackbeard thing. I said a bit ago that I think the yami yami no mi was what enabled him to have another devil fruit, but now rereading it it seems clear that his irregular body is what enables it. And on that branch it seems harder now to buy into the idea of a cerberus/kraken fruit theory considering he showed these odd qualities as a kid.

So now I'm reevaluating what exactly is what with BB and why he can pull this off. We got these major clues:
-He seems to never sleep.
-He is extremely durable, considering what he can take even with the fruit's downside.
-He is strong naturally, as he was considered to be a captain of WB before getting a fruit.

[real swan]

I could see that being a thing. Perhaps the scenes with Tama help keep her in control of herself.

[bronze spoke]

Or the brook's time to shine once again as he did in WCI. More like the WCI was prelude for brook all along.

The Cerberus could also be his body's inherent property. So he don't need to sleep coz there are 3 people inside him.

[onyx fjord]

I think the irregular body is the way hes able to house two and the yami yami no mi is the mechanism of transfer

seems like the easiest conclusion to make but i bet oda will throw us for a loop with that one

[real swan]

Fo real the SH have been getting some interesting moments with BM in general. Nami and BM's shared caring for children, Luffy and BM's love for food, etc. But if Brook was given a moment to deep dive into her souls that would be legendary lol.

[maiden ingot]

That sounded dirty

[real swan]

Nothing like a good deep dive lol

[real swan]

Yea his body for sure is letting the multiple DF thing work. I remember seeing an interesting point that they could just be carrying normal fruits around with them and when they kill DF users one of the fruits just becomes the DF and they eat it.

[onyx fjord]

The most common one I hear is the Cerberus Zoan explanation

Which is an interesting and direct connection given the bb pirates flag and all

[real swan]

There's definitely a lot of clues for it. My only thing is that he would've had to eat it as a kid before entering the WB crew, and then hide it for like 20 years. Unless he found a way to get it and eat it during the crew years. Did that theory touch on him not sleeping, I can't remember.

[onyx fjord]

Cereberus is a guard dog of hell I’m pretty sure it never sleeps unless it’s fed a narcotic type thing

Also to be fair he did hide his true intentions for like 25 years anyway. He is a master of long term payoff. Another thing: Blackbeard was a nobody outside the whitebeard crew really? I don’t think his devil fruit would’ve circulated outside the crew necessarily and it’s possible they’ve just purposely not touched on it for storytelling reasons.

I think Blackbeard probably wasn’t just a random orphan honestly. It’s really possible his connections run deeper than that. If BB is the antithesis to Luffy maybe his mom is some famous figure and his grandma raised him who knows.

I think there’s other holes in the Cerberus theory but it is the one that makes the most sense from the ones I’ve heard. I doubt any of the theories are right we have too much to learn about Mr. Teach

[real swan]

That's true, and yea that would definitely make sense then. Probably the most solid theory so far. Like you said we missing some key details still and knowing what happened to him as a kid is gonna be real important.

[onyx fjord]

I kind of think his parents will end up being someone we know or something else plot relevant

I just don’t buy the orphan thing. Blackbeard has so much setup and it’s hard for me to believe that they won’t use every aspect they can of his backstory

[dense wing]

We're most likely getting a very extended BB backstory

He's like, the final and main Pirate villain of the whole series

And he's the namesake of the most well-known pirate irl

[onyx fjord]

yeah probably

[last halo]

Something I would really like to see is BB recruiting his og 4.

[real swan]

The chapter info dumps of BB and devil fruits are gonna be amazing.

[thick sky]

Honestly a good take, tho we don't know how her power works

[glossy shore]

Yo if u read recent chapter devil fruit manipulation powers don’t work on characters with stronger haki than the devil fruit user

Just like how Law couldn’t teleport Kaido cuz Kaido haki is so strong/ huge

[thick sky]

Yes but that's not the issue. The thing isf to make garp and sengoku voluntarily ggo back to their prime

For that they can just not use their haki

like sanji against Black Maria

[glossy shore]

Ok then yah yeah that might work but there’s always the chance that Bonney might turn them into babies since there haki is gonna be “off”

[thick sky]

They can beat her into submission

[glossy shore]

Tru tru

[thick sky]

There isn't any mind control or brainwash df in one piece, right?

[glossy shore]

But Bonney might want to die rather than bring back prime Garp and sengoku

[thick sky]

Even if that happens, they return to their normal state in some time

[glossy shore]

Oh wait Maby

Some devil fruits work diferent than others

And no the closest things that can control people is Doflamingo string when he used people As puppets , and pudding when she erased sanji memory when they kissed

[thick sky]

Yea. Only if pudding was in marine's side 😅

[glossy shore]

Mind , mind fruit would be cool power though

U would be able to control people (with less haki of course) telepathically

[tiny forum]

Well read this thread I hope you will like the idea

https://twitter.com/Puru_Go/status/1388835256283942915?s=19

Ether (@Puru_Go)

Buy the whole world this is interesting 🤔
So this is what Luffy is gonna do after finding the one piece. Freedom is the main theme of the story so I can see that there is a chance for it to happen.

#OnePiece
#Gaimon
#Luffy

Twitter · May 2, 2021, 12:38 PM

[dusky acorn]

Well, the official translation didn't have Gaimon tell Luffy to buy the world. He instead told Luffy to make the world his oyster. It's basically an idiom that means to be able to go anywhere one pleases, or do anything one wishes.

It's an important distinction to make, because it lessens the basis you made of Luffy freeing all the WG affiliated countries by buying them out of the wealth he'd supposedly get from the One Piece.
I imagine if he tears the World Government apart, he'd just be free to take their islands under his wing afterwards as his own territories, so no money would have to be involved, he'd just be free to do so.

[pure raven]

I wonder if sugar's devil fruit could be counteracted by haki

cause if it can't be, sugar could defeat kaido

the marines should offer sugar a bunch of money to join hem

them*

[steady canopy]

sugar would be super afraid of kaido and so for that her powers wont activate.

[zinc iris]

burgess was going to steal Luffy's df on his own so the metod of transfer doesn't require BB's presence
my guess still is cannibalism like Big Mom accidentally did

[pure raven]

Naturay way to bring up hjs late father

Like resurrection?

Then it can be possibke as oda already said he doesnt like these kinda of things

And when did kidd went to wci ?

I dont remember if somone the pls do mention the chap no or panel

Ohk

Maybe it was outside of wci when he destroyed her ship as mentioned in fish man island

[pastel summit]

don't think Kid knows about road poneglyphs. Luffy only knows about them due to the minks. Not even Robin knew of their existence and she has been researching poneglyphs her whole life. Whatever he took from BM, I don't think is related to poneglyph rubbings.

[pure raven]

Yeah not red poneglyph but smth else

[hidden tinsel]

Whatever he took, yall think hes gonna use it against BM when they fight again

[pure raven]

Who knows

[pastel summit]

imagine Kid took a photo of carmel

[hidden tinsel]

Maybe a map to somewhere

A weapon

[pastel summit]

I'm going to imagine it's not something BM kept track of, because she seemingly never noticed it was gone. which is why poneglyph rubbing is what most people thought because it's not something you'd necessarily steal, just make a copy of. but I just don't think Kid knows about them. They seem like something you need to be told about, or something you learn on Lodestar. and I don't think either has happened to Kid.

[thick sky]

Were apoo and bege shown to have known about road ponelgylph's existence??

Considering they were with Yonko for longer.

[worldly anvil]

they're not stupid, they should know

[thick sky]

Then kidd knowing about them isn't far fetched. Luffy's crew didn't know as it was only months that they were in new world

Who have been shown to know about road ponelgylph? Except roger's crew, bm and children, kaido, minks and luffy's crew and law?
I mean explicitly shown. Or whatever is the right word

[pastel summit]

explicitly shown would be Roger, Kaido, Big Mom, Tamago, Pudding, Inu and Neko, SHs + Law. That's it.

and Neptune I guess.

[thick sky]

No marines ?

[pastel summit]

not explicitly, no.

[thick sky]

Or WG people like lucci and co?

[thick sky]

Oh

[pastel summit]

no one on the side of WG has mentioned road poneglyphs, just regular ones.

[pure raven]

Wg knows for sure

If not others then 5 elders should know

[silk lance]

You mean they know about their existence or their locations? I don’t think they know the locations, they would’ve gotten all the copies and found Raftel

[vestal rampart]

when does the next chap come out again?

[vestal bone]

This Sunday

[vestal rampart]

ok

hey where is the beginning of this kidd theory, I wanna read it @pure raven

thanks

ok im in spanish class i cant read that all lmao

[stone burrow]

i have a theory but its from fishmam island. Could I still share it?

[vestal rampart]

sure

if you're not caught up, it may be proven wrong or right alr though. @stone burrow

[pure raven]

They do know for 800 years they have been in existence they know of void centuary, will of D , and poenglyphs but dont know of red poneglyphs that would be absurd .

And i believe the reason for this bridge is maybe for connecting the laugh tale to another island and moving the treasure one piece or whatever is in the.re

[errant nova]

Let’s hear it, although a mostly boring arc, it’s so packed with lore that I think great theories can come out of it.

[silk lance]

I think you misunderstood my question. I’m not saying WG doesn’t know about Void century or Raftel. All I’m asking is if you think they know the locations of the red poneglyphs. Don’t you think they would’ve hidden it by now if they found them?

[pure raven]

They should know the contents of red poneglyphs

Which points to raftel

Unless they ussed three eyed clan as kozuki clan woukdnt have helped them then they wouldnt know
Both scenarios are possible
hope wano kuni ends soon as it would answer many if our question

[ornate mesa]

This theory isn’t my own. I’ve heard bits and pieces of it from a lot of different youtubers and yea. I think Shanks is the son of Rocks and a celestial dragon. First of all when Shanks goes to meet Whitebeard on his ship he sends a pirate named Rockstar that kind of looks like Rocks. I think this is Oda hinting at Rocks way before we even know who he is. Also when Shanks meets Whitebeard, Whitebeard says Shanks’ face causes a wound of his to ache implying that Shanks looks like somebody Whitbeard has fought before (Rocks). I think his mom is a celestial dragon because this would explain why he can just visit the Gorosei and is allowed to do things by Sengoku as they probably know Shanks’ heritage and even though he’s a pirate they still respect him for having the blood of celestial dragons.

[pure raven]

Yea this is a popular theory

[vestal isle]

that's pretty believable and i think it makes sense

[pure raven]

What about the reason whitebeard dont accept a women on his ship?

I read somewhere that there was a reason to it

Maybe if it is true then it could be possibly related to it.

Or maybe to crocodile

[silk lance]

Didn’t he have a female crewmate in the Oden flashback?

[queen arrow]

probably not

he had Whitey Bay yeah, there's an SBS about this subject iirc

[silk lance]

Hmm, interesting

[grizzled fog]

Do we know anything more about whitey bay? Seems she left the crew to make her own but I don’t remember anything else

[queen arrow]

Shanks' face would remind Whitebeard of Roger and not of Rocks, and being related to a Celestial Dragon but not having the title doesn't give anyone any authority

literal Celestial Dragons where completely neglected because they didn't want to the title, and Shanks certainly isn't living in Mary Geoise with the others

[ornate mesa]

The difference between ex celestials like Doffy’s parents and Shanks is that first of all shanks has actual power and influence as a yonko and second it seems that the gorosei personally know him as whenever shanks was on the move the gorosei acted like it was no big deal because they know shanks isn’t trying to change the world in any big way

[queen arrow]

that has nothing to do with him being a celestial dragon or not

[ornate mesa]

I’m saying that he’s being treated differently as an ex celestial for that reason

[queen arrow]

no, he's being treated that way because he's one of the most powerful people alive

it has nothing to do with him being a celestial dragon or not and you just said it

[ornate mesa]

I’m saying it’s a combination of power and his celestial background

[queen arrow]

his celestial background is irrelevant because we know that doesn't influence things for them

[ornate mesa]

I would think the same way but Sengoku said that he would only let Shanks take Whitebeard and aces bodies because it’s shanks implying that he wouldn’t let anybody else do the same if they were in that situation

Which leads me to believe that it’s something more than simply just power

[queen arrow]

Sengoku can respect him without him being a celestial dragon

[ornate mesa]

Also we don’t know for sure if it influences things for him. Doflamingo isn’t in Mariejoise but he could mess with the newspapers and make cp0 do his bidding

[queen arrow]

there's literally no basis to say it's because of his celestial dragon background specially when he fucking shits on Doflamingo

Doflamingo has special privileges not because of his celestial dragon bloodline, but because he found out about the secret treasure of mary geoise

[ornate mesa]

All I’m saying is I doubt the gorosei would just let a pirate walk into their room just because he’s strong. They even said they made time for shanks because of who shanks is

[queen arrow]

Shanks is one of the four emperors, he's not just any pirate, and he's got a reputation of not being bat-shit insane like Big Mom or Kaido

if he just wanted to talk they would talk with him, it's not a big deal

the thing is that it can't be because of "celestial dragon bloodline" because they have actively scoffed at people with "celestial dragon bloodline" that don't have the celestial dragon title, like Donquixote Homing and his family and the Nefertaris

[ornate mesa]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare people like that with Shanks. I don’t think it’s solely about his bloodline but a combination of his bloodline and power. The ex celestials that we know of for sure at this moment in the story (besides Doflamingo) are just regular people.

[queen arrow]

oh it's totally fair to compare people like that with Shanks, because it proves that "the bloodline" doesn't matter for them, and that Shanks got his audience because of his power and not because of his bloodline, essentially leaving the speculation that he has Celestial Dragon blood totally baseless

if they didn't care about the CD bloodline in other people, and something like that wasn't even brought up when the Shanks meeting happened, combined with the fact that Shanks has the power and influence to warrant his opinion being heard, then there's no base for saying that Shanks has celestial dragon blood because him having is not relevant for the way he was treated

[vestal isle]

do you know of any specific videos that mention this. im kinda curious to watch

[queen arrow]

and don't even get me started on the Rocks part

specially the comment from Whitebeard

[ornate mesa]

So you don’t think it’s weird that Shanks sent a pirate named rockstar who kind of looks like rocks before their meeting where Whitebeard said that

[queen arrow]

what part of Rockstar looks like Rocks, and why didn't Whitebeard say that he looked like Rocks them?

[ornate mesa]

Well I thought the hair kind of looks like rocks hair. The face of rocks would look more like shanks which would explain why Whitebeard didn’t react when he saw rockstar but when he saw shanks

[queen arrow]

their hair is vaguely similar

[ornate mesa]

And rockstar hair is red

[queen arrow]

so is Kid's

[ornate mesa]

All I’m saying is Oda could be hinting there 🤷‍♂️

[queen arrow]

when Whitebeard talks about Shanks' face making scars ache, it's because he's reminded of Roger

he remember his face as one of Roger's crewmates

[pure raven]

I had this thought... Did Mihawk ever fight Kozuki Oden?

[dense wing]

Mihawk was pretty young so no

[pure raven]

It's ok bro I like the theory

[fallow knot]

To fight with oden he had to cross whitebeard Or roger's ship. And in marineford it was first time he attacked whitebeard

[pure raven]

Mihawk was 19

fair enough. I thought Oden was to Mihawk what Mihawk is to Zoro

Close enough to be fair

Oden was 39 when he was executed. I think Mihawk was 23 at that point. Mihawk's currently 43 and Zoro's 21 I believe.

For Mihawk to fight Oden it'd have to be before he returned to Wano (so before the time Roger was executed so he'd be around 19 at the latest)

[midnight heron]

i thought it was xebec?

[wet kayak]

um no i don't think so

[queen arrow]

what?

[midnight heron]

it was based on some theory, but when WB said it reminds me of "him" the theory explains it was rock d xebec

[queen arrow]

that's exactly what i'm disproving

[steel breach]

I think if they fought it would’ve been highlighted in the flashback

[hidden tinsel]

Why do yall think in a 1v1 Kaido doesn't lose

[steel breach]

Durability and recovery

And ofc power

[queen arrow]

it's part of his reputation

[dense wing]

Mythical Zoan which gives him super hard scales, destructive power, and regeneration

Strongest creature

[steel breach]

Only way Kaido’s getting defeated is a strong enough attack that can either KO or kill him

Problem with knocking him out though is his recovery, dude will probably be up fast as shit

[onyx fjord]

Yonkou are unbelievably durable
See: whitebeard big mom (and also kaido)

[dense wing]

Kaido is going to lose to damage over time coupled by Luffy's destructive hits

[onyx fjord]

Does he regenerate?

[dense wing]

He regenerates and there's potentially awakening but stuff like the scar is permadamage

Also I'd argue the internal hits are harder to regen

[onyx fjord]

Kaido is set up as so unbelievably strong it is hard to comprehend how his eventual demise will come about

[hidden tinsel]

I still dont understand the whole fish fish fruit having to do with a dragon transformation

[onyx fjord]

!koido

[lone hedge]

“How is Kaido a Fish when he’s a dragon?”

https://koiorganisationinternational.org/blog-entry/how-koi-became-dragon-waterfall-legend
Here.

[hidden tinsel]

I get the story of the fish that climbed a waterfall that turned into a dragon

[onyx fjord]

It’s a mythical creature. It occupies a legend. It’s fish fish fruit model: said legend. It isn’t the base form of the fish fish fruit

I don’t see how it’s any less believable than Sengoku having a mythical Zoan where he is a literal Buddha

[cedar sinew]

it's not a transformation, he's just a "version" of a fish from the start. Same way Lucci is a "version" of a cat or a Leopard

[onyx fjord]

Yeah true

[velvet edge]

yea he didnt start out as a fish -> dragon, but rather was always a dragon. the naming just comes from the lore as a version of the animal like mai said

[onyx fjord]

It is a very interesting thematic choice on Oda’s part

[novel zephyr]

And also the dinosaur fruits are called dragon dragon fruits already, so thats kinda taken

[onyx fjord]

I still do not get why they’re called that rather than just option for a Dino Dino fruit

[novel zephyr]

Lots of zoans called things they arent

[onyx fjord]

Yeah it’s just odd

[velvet edge]

in japanese, dinosaur is ancient dragon iirc

[dusty galleon]

Oda just did for the lols

[novel zephyr]

Kaku is called an ox ox fruit but he's clearly a giraffe

[dusty galleon]

All the dinos are dragons, but the only dragon is a fish

[dense wing]

Sounds like One Piece

[dusty galleon]

Oh nvm wrong channel, thought this was #also-manga

No joking around lol

[dense wing]

But yeah, tbh I want to say Oda went with fish model to justify the Byakku parallel for Yamato

[dusty galleon]

Probably something like that, playing into the myth alignments

[dense wing]

Trust the mythology, embrace Turtleman

At the very least I can see Luffy going Snakeman at first vs Kaido

[dusty galleon]

What's the turtle/snake creature called

[dense wing]

Gembu? Something like that

Luffy

At least that’s my theory

[queen arrow]

if i where to give an alternate name to the Ryu Ryu no Mi that isn't Dragon-Dragon Fruit, i'd go Saur-Saur Fruit

[steel breach]

Am I the only one who’s interested in the fight between Who’s who and Jinbe? I wonder how Jinbe’s gonna beat him

[onyx fjord]

It’s the fight I am most intrigued by

[steel breach]

Dudes also a swordsman

I think he’s gonna be pretty strong

Probably the strongest Tobiropa

[pure raven]

Maybe that turtle and snake luffys next gear 4 form

[dusky acorn]

Thanks for reading, Fagu! To be honest, I'm glad you waited until now to give the theories a look. Back when I first posted it, there were still a lot of things that needed to be tweaked, edited, or deleted. But now, I'm very content with both pretty solid cases for possibilities of Kid's heritage.

About Eustace Monk, I never really looked into him, but his father having been a lord during medieval France is a very nice coincidence that I wasn't even gunning for when making the latter hypothesis, wow. As far as I can gather, while a lord wasn't at the very top of the food chain, it's a pretty nice rank of nobility nonetheless.

Beforehand, even I was wondering why Kid has such a consistent medieval styled castle aesthetic if William came from the early modern era timeline wise (when castle building was basically obsolete by then), but since Eustace actually came from the middle ages, that makes perfect sense. Especially because besides kings, lords were the main people who owned castles and their surrounding property.

Since you were looking for other connections, another resemblance to draw is how Eustace later took an island known as Sark as his base after having turned pirate. This fits with how Kid also went on to have his own island hideout as a base of operations.

Gotta say, I like how both of the pirate inspirations Kid has from his namesakes may both tie in to each respective theory, which aren't even necessarily driving forces of either theory, but nice compliments that fluidly happen to line up.

Due to all this, I'm def still favouring the noble backstory more, especially because Eustace is the one actually responsible for Kid's surname, so I think it has slightly more weight on his background. Whereas with Captain William, he's only responsible for his first-name, which I think may be moreso there to inspire what the "here and now" of Kid's character was meant to be (Which does fit with his aforementioned epithet, personality, former bad luck, etc).

[steel breach]

Hopefully we get some kid and killer background during Wano

[grizzled fog]

I like to think we’ll get a decent bit as a preview of sorts during the BM fight, and we’ll get the rest after wano

[steel breach]

Yeah I’d be cool with something like that

[weary cliff]

No need for spoiler tags. As far as the theory goes, doesn't seem so likely. There really isn't any indication that devil fruits became more common after Roger's last voyage, and we know how he sparked the great pirate age already. It's possible that the origin of DFs will be explained by the history left on Laugh Tale, however. But I think it's just as likely they remain a mystery

[outer locust]

Idk about the df tree

[pure raven]

@full cairn While I'm sure you had good intention when spoiler tagging the messages, avoid using them in the future in channels revolved around manga content discussions when the spoilers are out because they can cause confusion.

[pure raven]

Jesus Burgess vs Nico Robin "Devil Child"
Swordsmen
Doctors
Sake vs Water
Giant vs Giant Mech
Dog-Dog Fruit: Kyubi no Kitsune vs Cat Burglar
Demon Sheriff vs (Power of the Underworld) Soul King
Snipers
Corrupt King vs Mr. Prince
Captains

I think this could be a decent matchup for the eventual meeting of the two crews

[queen arrow]

Burgess vs Robin is a stretch if i've ever seen one

[pure raven]

Burgess is how Baltigo was discovered and subsequently destroyed

Baltigo, home of the Revolutionary Army who hosted Robin during the timeskip

There's a link, albeit a weak one

[weary cliff]

I'm already convinced of the Zoro/Sanji vs Jesus/Shiryu 2v2

[pure raven]

Robin fights by grappling people too

[waxen light]

https://tenor.com/view/proud-mohamed-salah-mo-clapping-gif-12029244

Laffitte vs Brook is something I didn't know I wanted

[blazing spade]

Plus one mystery Titanic Captain and one last Straw Hat.

[waxen light]

Urouge vs Yamato

[dense wing]

Yeah the more I think about it the more I love the idea of Brook vs Lafitte

Imagine if Lafitte has a fallen angel mythical zoan

[blazing spade]

Yamato vs Avalo locking horns otherwise

[pure raven]

I feel like it'll be a Tori Tori no Mi: Model something

Mythical would be very cool though

[blazing spade]

If Devon vs Nami happens, Devon can shift into Absalom and... oh no...

[outer locust]

I totally agree

[craggy pumice]

Zombie Absalom will inherit Zombie Lolas gag of enforcing marriage on Absalom. How ironic

[sacred hawk]

A question. If Shanks was in Mihawk's place during marineford and tried to attack Jozu like Mihawk did, would Jozu have been able to take the attack?

Because since diamond can only be cut on specific planes, I don't think Jozu can actually be cut by anyone

[visual merlin]

depends how much he tries on the swing

[cerulean coyote]

In real life, you can cut a diamond with a diamond. It was the method used before lasers. I think one piece world allows the cut with a "diamond will".

[queen arrow]

probably

diamonds in one piece are the ceiling of durability alongside seastone

[hearty mountain]

Shanks would have cut him in half

[grizzled fog]

I think both shanks and Mihawk are capable of cutting jozu, but not casually, I think it’d take a massive amount of effort

[queen arrow]

i don't think they are, and i hope no one is

[grizzled fog]

I wonder if his insides are diamond tho

[queen arrow]

i like a powerceiling like that existing, it makes so that Seastone cuffs per example will always be something you can't just break out off

[queen arrow]

i mean it's a devil fruit so why not

[grizzled fog]

Daz bones tho

[queen arrow]

also diamonds are transparent so if it was a layer above his skin we would see it

[grizzled fog]

Daz bones’ insides weren’t steel right? Otherwise zoro wouldn’t have been able to beat him I think

[queen arrow]

bro all of his body was a blade

[zealous grail]

Yo I've always wondered, what if Shanks was never entrusted with Roger's Strawhat. But rather he just kind of found it on the ship and Rogers was like sure take it who cares

[pure raven]

Pretty sure his insides would be steel too

[grizzled fog]

Outsides yea, but the insides?

[grizzled fog]

He wouldn’t have been cut then no?

[queen arrow]

how did you think this happened if it's just his outsides that are steel

[grizzled fog]

? That image just shows his skin being steel

[pure raven]

Nah he would still be cut if the person is capable of cutting steel

[queen arrow]

his hand changed shape

[grizzled fog]

Zoro’s technique he used was functionally similar to advanced Ryuo no?

[pure raven]

I wouldn't say so no.

[zealous grail]

For Daz Bones, compare him to Luffy's gomu gomu fruit, Luffy can still bleed but we know that his organs are indeed made of rubber. I would assume something similar would be occurring for Daz

[pure raven]

He can still be cut by regular armament. Plus I would imagine that it makes his insides steel since his fruit works similarly to Luffy's. Meaning both changes the property of the person's body

[grizzled fog]

So the technique zoro used wasn’t anything about bypassing durability or something, nothing to do with the insides, literally just making his attack sharper and harder

[queen arrow]

it's about cutting steel

[pure raven]

Well armemnt haki would allow him to cut Mr.1's real body so yes.

[grizzled fog]

😶

[pure raven]

Tbh me saying zoro used armament is a bit of a stretch by itself.

[queen arrow]

i mean not even what Zoro is using now is about bypassing external defenses, it's just about cutting through Kaido's skin

[grizzled fog]

Matehiqu, the point is how he does those things

The process of cutting steel is simply making the attack harder and sharper no?

[queen arrow]

it's a weird swordsman mindset magic thing

[pure raven]

Depends on if you believe he used armament or not. If he did then no he cut Mr.1s real body which wasn't advamced armament. Just regular armament. Or it could be that he simply learned a technique for cutting steel which I believe

[grizzled fog]

Yea but wow, how do you believe that technique works

[pure raven]

It could be force, knowing where to apply the force, it could figuring out where the steel is lax to cut. I'm not sure. There's plenty of techniques that we don't know the specifics of.

[grizzled fog]

So pretty much vague unexplained swordsman shit

[pure raven]

If it was actually internal destruction then he should've been able to cut kaku regardless of whether or not kaku became steel

But it seemed to be specific. So yeah its some vague shit

[queen arrow]

i mean he was able to cut through Iron Body when he focused to do it, Kaku just parried his attacks

[pure raven]

Yes but when Kaku stopped using it and got hit with shi shi son son it didn't do anything.

If it was internal destruction it shouldn't have mattered

[queen arrow]

what

[grizzled fog]

Definitely don’t think zoro has ever used internal destruction, but I also don’t think he managed to used that technique he learned on demand consistently

[pure raven]

Lemme get the panel

[queen arrow]

this?

Kaku decided instead of using Iron Body and staying still, he parried Zoro's slash with his own "blade"

[pure raven]

Ah then I must've read the wrong translation

From the Mr.1 fight. It seemed like its something completely different.

[queen arrow]

it's kinda of a mindset thing

[unreal sedge]

Hey

Who has died in Wano so far

I’m counting Yasuie and Oden

And they both smiled at the end

And the Vivre card just revealed Yasuie never ate a smile, and was just making a smile to encourage people who had eaten smiles

Thats kind of weird, huh.
Two members of significant wano clans dying with a smile, just like a D clan member

[full cairn]

@weary cliff I mean if you read Chapter 19, after Buggy faked eating the devil fruit in front of Gol D Roger's crew members, Buggy said he doesn't feel any different, and a random crewmate said maybe the tales about the devil fruits were lies. It seems like even the pirate king's crew doesnt know too much about the devil's fruit at the time. Not sure if Oda was trying to make Devil Fruit seems super rare early on in One Piece and switched direction as the story progressed, or devil fruits were actually rare in the past compared to now.

[spark wagon]

ya starting to wonder if they're part of the same clan but the kozuki guard the night (moon) & the D guard the day. like the mink tribes guardians musketeers

[real swan]

It wouldn't necessarily have to do with rarity either. We just straight up don't know how they fully work yet, and in setting only Vegapunk really has a clear idea.

[sly pulsar]

Can i post any theory here or does it need to be related to chapter 1011?????

[grizzled fog]

Nah any theory is good as long as it’s serious and one piece related

[sly pulsar]

ok, thanks man

[real swan]

And doesnt include anything from current spoilers I think.

[sly pulsar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRtqoykrwwo&t=48s

[sly pulsar]

Theory about buggy being a member of the red nose tribe

[junior cape]

Buggy is gonna show up again, maybe take over the Yonko title, like he took warlord.

[sly pulsar]

yeah, i agree

[sly pulsar]

did you see the theory above, its pretty good

[junior cape]

Buggy will come up with some new bomb that he'll use to no effect

And promptly get shut down

But the news will spin him as some valiant fighter trying his hardest, and hell come out on top

[junior cape]

Unless it actually works somehow lmao

[junior cape]

I can see Buggy SOMEHOW becoming a Yonko through sheer coincidence, like he's in the right place at the right time, and sways enough people to somehow come to power, even though he's still the same East Blue Buggy combat-wise.

It would be hilarious

[dusky acorn]

Yeah, he has a track record of inadvertently falling upwards, so he probably will find a way to Emperorship, even if not in the main story. Buggy could be one after some kind of time-skip during the epilogue, if Emperors still exist as a system by then that is

[junior cape]

I mean he did say it back in the East, if Luffy was gonna be king of the pirates, then he'd become the god of the pirates.

He'll attain some mythic status by the end, I'm sure

[copper frost]

he must be on the run right now, would like to see a cover story where he and caesar actually meet and have some misadventures, leading to more fame for buggy

[junior cape]

Lmao thatd be perfect, the clown wonder-duo's spectacular misadventures

[copper frost]

it's also in line with how oda does cover stories

[junior cape]

Man, if Gin is still alive, I hope we meet him again. Even if he's not super notorious in the New World, I bet he'd at least jokingly challenge Sanji to a rematch.

He'd definitely know advanced arms haki, too, considering he's a battle-nut

[sacred adder]

So's luffy but he only learnt it like a month or so ago One piece time

[pure raven]

The latest vivre cards suggest that it's been 9 months at this point

Tama's birthday is March 3rd and the timeskip officially ended on July 13th
https://one-piece.com/log/character/detail/Mugiwarano_itimi.html

[sacred adder]

I haven't read that yet, thanks for the info

[pastel summit]

wouldn't go off birthday stuff tbh. A lot of it is just oda going "lol yeah sure that can be the date". I don't think he tries to make the dates internally consistent. It definitely has not been 9 months since timeskip

[pure raven]

As it stands that's how it is but yea Oda hack blah blah

[worldly anvil]

I feels like it been like 2 months at best

Pretty sure Dressrosa was 2 days total, could be wrong tho

the way I see it

[copper frost]

Yeah the main stuff lasted 2 days but the travel took time

[worldly anvil]

Fishman was less than a week
PH was less than a week
Dressrosa 2 days total
Zou was less than a week
WCI was about a week
Wano been like a week

[copper frost]

Well, it's basically factoring in the sea travel as well

[worldly anvil]

2 months sound correct with sea travel

[copper frost]

Wano has been 2 weeks

[pastel summit]

Dressrosa was longer than 2 days.

The main stuff was 1 day, but they rested for a few days.

[copper frost]

Did they rest for a few days or just the night

[pastel summit]

All up, it's around 3 months.

[copper frost]

Because the indication here for me seemed like the Marines moved immediately the following day after the collapse of Donquixote Pirates

[dusky acorn]

There were 3 days of rest for Dressrosa along with the day fighting Doflamingo. The travel to Zou alone was already a week. As for the voyage to Whole Cake, there were two seperate cuts of "Few days later" + "Several days later", and a couple days actually in the territory

And Wano has been 14 days

[copper frost]

Wano has been 2 weeks

We're on the 14th day which is the night of the fire festival

[pastel summit]

I don't know how long FMI was. Punk Hazard I think was all in the same day. then however long until dressrosa (I don't think it was that far since doffy was able to run there, then run back). then dressrosa was about 4 days. a few days to get to zou, then they stayed there for a few days. a week to WCI + they stayed there for about 2 days I believe. might be 3. then sail to wano (unknown time) then stayed on wano for 2 weeks.

[copper frost]

Assuming WCI to Wano would take at least a couple days

[craggy pumice]

do we wanna assume that the moon cycle is the same as irl?

[pastel summit]

no

[craggy pumice]

okay 🚶🏻‍♂️

[pastel summit]

I mean idk. the minks were acting like after jack attacked them, there would be a full moon really soon after. but WCI has to be like, around a week away after the dressrosa crew landed.

[weak arrow]

There was a fullmoon the night luffy arrived at Zou

[night glacier]

It worries me how well Luffy is doing against Kaido

I feel like a complete smack to Luffy may be on its way

[zinc iris]

that's likely, kaido definitely has more stuff he has yet to show

[night glacier]

He might have more than the 3 typical zoan forms like chopper

[zinc iris]

there's also the Awakened form that he might have unlocked

perfectly suited for a last stand