manga-theories

[manic relic]

So if he is now 80 then he was 56 when he resigned as fleet admiral. Admirals are +50 lol

[dusty galleon]

Does this guy look like he's about to suffer a heart attack cz he's sick AF?

[molten lotus]

We know nothing about the Gorosei either, those old farts could be stronger than kaido but who knows really

[steel breach]

Lol nah

[grizzled fog]

Idk why people think muscles matter that much when this is our protagonist

[manic relic]

About gorosei i agree we dont know if they are strong or political only. But about Kong its confirmed that he was fleet admiral 24 years ago

[steel breach]

Luffy kinda ripped now doe

[manic relic]

Unless people sleep on fleet admirals

[grizzled fog]

Escanor. That means he was once strong, probably as strong as an admiral. That was 20+ years ago

[manic relic]

Prime whitebeard was also + 24 years ago. People are shitting about WB?

[dusty galleon]

Yeah and MF WB was nowhere close to primeBeard

[grizzled fog]

Bruh. Prime Whitebeard was also much stronger than the old Whitebeard we saw recently lmao

[molten lotus]

Oda said Whitebeard had the strength of base super saiyan form at his prime, I doubt that old man has that kind of power.

[dusty galleon]

And primeBeard was like the shit

[amber oar]

To be fair, that's because he actively refused promotion.

but yeah I think Fleet Admiral and above are administrative roles and from that point it stops being about power

[manic relic]

Yes i agree prime was stronger. Common sense. But old whitebeard was still > admiral?

[dusty galleon]

And remember what Roger says? bring Garp or sengoku, at least

Not garp or sengoku or kong

[dusty galleon]

And you are implying 24y ago Kong == WB?

[molten lotus]

Yep, we've been constantly reminded throughout the whole series that an Admiral was serious business. Like, that's the navy's top fighter anyway

[manic relic]

AT LEAST. So Kong can be above the "at least".

[dusty galleon]

@manic relic

[manic relic]

No. But old whitebeard proves that old people can > admiral. So why not Kong? Because he had 0.001% screentime?

Kong already was > admiral

[steel breach]

Lmao

[manic relic]

So dont act like he never was

[molten lotus]

Hyping up the Marines like whaat

We've seen more stuff from Green Bull, and it's still not enough to guess his strength

[amber oar]

Well, admirals in Marineford could barely deal with WB's commanders. We have zero reason to believe Kong is much above that,

[hollow tartan]

H

[molten lotus]

I'm sure Kong is at his prime while doing paperwork

[steel breach]

That’s not true lol

[manic relic]

Tell me what is the use of Kong until end story? He is former fleet admiral and highest autority after im sama gorosei. If he is now < admiral. He can be cancelled for me

[dusty galleon]

Have you ever considered he might not be relevant to the story much?

[steel breach]

Idk maybe he’s just an interesting character for the plot lol

[amber oar]

but muh powerlevels

[weak arrow]

Yeah it’s completely based off Doflamingo being able to blackmail the CDs. The treasure could involve Imu.

[molten lotus]

Only the epic old farts get to keep their amazing power. You can see how Don Chinjao who standed up to Garp was easily defeated by Luffy in Dressrosa. That's as much proof that being epic in your youth doesn't give you strength while being old

[manic relic]

No because i know oda wont drop a random guy that has 3th highest autority of world government, higher than fleet admiral and he was former fleet admiral and end of story he did shit. No oda wont do this. Some characters are just being saved until end of story like Im sama, Dragon, Mihawk,

[steel breach]

You’re going to very disappointed if you think he’s gonna involved in any significant way 🤣

[molten lotus]

That's not how you propose a theory mate, but ok

[weak arrow]

I guess the easiest reply is: Point to where Kong did anything in Marineford

[manic relic]

Nah it's not like i'm hoping for that. That's just what i predict. But I don't care if he do shit

[steel breach]

Your prediction is 100% wrong bro sorry!🥶

[manic relic]

Who said Kong was in marineford? Maybe his task is to defend celestial dragons or he had faith in the rest of navy force?

[manic relic]

No problem bro. Its just a prediction. Nothing big

[steel breach]

Ayup

[manic relic]

But if i end up being right again i cant share screenshot because i'm gloating lol

[amber oar]

yeah we know you don't make big deal of your predictions. At all.

[weak arrow]

He didn’t play a single role in Marineford despite his high position. Not even planning or strategy to our knowledge. That was all done by Sengoku and Akainu.

[manic relic]

Okay we will see guys

[dusty galleon]

If you expect the strongest fighter of the WG to show up anywhere, it would at the place where you were literally luring in the World's Strongest Man

[manic relic]

If i read some comments i can assume people think that current kong < or max = avg vice admiral?

Or kong = tashigi?

[dusty galleon]

Him not being involved any which way in MF is pretty indicative he isn't playing any major combat roles in the current timeline

[weak arrow]

No need to straw man us Escanor

[amber oar]

Actually I don't think it's even relevant to discuss but whatever

[manic relic]

So you also think that Im sama cant fight and is political only?

[dusty galleon]

Possibly

[weak arrow]

IM’s existence is a secret and would destroy the balance of the world if revealed, unlike Kong

[manic relic]

Because if im sama can fight then he/ she should have helped them

[dusty galleon]

Wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.
And besides, Im is a bad example to bring up here even if he is a fighter

Because his entire existence is a secret

[manic relic]

Secret means shit if navy gets destroyed and im sama is next

[weak arrow]

Then he’d fight when they actually get to him. Im is in no hurry.

[manic relic]

Mayba im sama was convinced about the Navy's power?

[amber oar]

If you ask me Im doesn't look like a conventional fighter and if they're any strong it's a tricky df power or something supernatural which makes powerleveling a moot point

Actually, powerleveling tends to end in a moot point in OP, there are at best very, very diffuse tiers (obviously Tashigi can't beat say Kaido) but arguing details like this guy is 0.01% stronger than that guy 4 days a week if it's raining, is a moot point

particularly with haki being related to willpower, even your mood is a buff or a nerf in OP's world which makes powerlevel discussion even more vague

[molten lotus]

That's what fun about OP, dude can be strong as hell but add a devil fruit and then his power can skyrocket. Say Kaido being a Dragon as big as a mountain

[manic relic]

I think this topic is closed

[molten lotus]

For all we now Im sama could have the power Doflamingo was looking, inmortality with the ope ope no mi

[weary cliff]

If anyone has the gotten the surgery, it's Im. No doubt

[manic relic]

I also think Im sama obtained eternal life from OP OP no mi

What is the chance for Zoro or Sanji getting a devil fruit?

[molten lotus]

I think Sanji learning geppo and Zoro using conquerors is proof enough that they really don't need one

[jade palm]

0

if any SH should get DF it will not be sanji or zoro

[molten lotus]

Who would honestly want the destructive power of a giraffe

[dusty galleon]

They still need to be on backup fishing duty for Luffy

[amber oar]

If any other sh would get another df Oda wouldn't have replied that sbs

[dusty galleon]

In case Jimbei isn't around

Have we seen a fishman with df other than Jack?

[amber oar]

Vander decken

[weak arrow]

^

[dusty galleon]

Oh right he was also Fishman I forgot

[manic relic]

I agree. As a zoro fanboy i dont want Zoro to have a DF. Unless it will be my favourite DF: OP OP no mi if Law dies. But that combined chance will be < 1%

Zoro with OP OP no mi will be hax

[dusty galleon]

Zoro using op op would be an insult to both Zoro and the OP op no mi

[molten lotus]

Zoro using shishi sonson underwater is top OP anyway

[manic relic]

Why insult?

[molten lotus]

"There's nothing I cannot cut"

[manic relic]

Well he cut Kaido lol

Law cant slice Kaido in 2 with his room

[molten lotus]

Ope Ope No Mi can cut through anything, that's why it would be an insult to Zoro's resolve

[manic relic]

Depends on Haki

[dusty galleon]

Op op isn't meant to cut, it's meant to be used by a doctor, so it's an insult to the fruit if all its ever used for doing is cut and kill people
Zoro gaining the ability to cut almost anything will make moot a lot of his development like his haki training with Mihawk and his entire Alabasta development arc as well his own principles of making his sword cut whatever he wants to cut on his own accord. That's why it's an insult to Zoro as well

[molten lotus]

It's pointless to point that out, it just means you need to be stronger than your opponent. Like Law vs Vergo

[manic relic]

True about the doctor part. But what if Zoro gets OP OP no mi after he became WSS and cutted everything? Then its already accomplished

[dusty galleon]

Then he doesn't need the op op

[lilac mirage]

I think it's not an insult, law couldn't use his fruit powers because kaidous and BM haki was too strong, but ZORO gave a scar to kaidou

[dusty galleon]

It's an insult to Zoro is he requires the power of a fruit to cut anything

[pure raven]

Hey roronoa zolo nice pic

[steel bane]

What do you think about this theory anyone?

[dusky acorn]

Blackbeard eventually killing Shanks is a pretty widely acclaimed theory in general, however I haven't ever saw that Ace/Shanks scene in Jaya used as evidence, it's a pretty decent catch I suppose

[steel bane]

Yah i agree but i wobt beleive shanks will be defeated by bb

[pure raven]

I took it as that’s the highest “point” luffy needs to reach

And how shanks also didn’t fight the bandits

[steel bane]

I agree

Cause shanks is jot that easy to be defeated because everyones afraid of him

[cedar sinew]

what's the connection he's making? That Luffy looks angry while flashing back to Ace and Shanks and since Ace died Shanks will too?

I think it's fair to interpret that moment as Luffy reminiscing about two people he greatly respect on his journey to be PK, especially considering how the bar scene in Jaya was identical to the bar scene in Fuishia Village

and since the whole theme of the chapter was chasing the unattainable, which Ace, Shanks, and BB (and Luffy) all represent, makes sense. Dont think Luffy's animosity is towards BB or vice versa, more of a fierce determination

[dusky acorn]

Well yeah, if Shanks were to ever die, I don't think anyone would ever go back to this Jaya scene and go, wow look at this surefire foreshadowing! It doesn't really have an in-story basis behind it anyways, (it's not like Luffy had some haki that can see years into the future or magically know what people someone is connected to). But I'm sure it would still be a loose connection fans go back to try and make from a meta stand-point lmao

Your interpretation is much more plausibly what Oda was going for in the moment and yeah, no hatred towards Blackbeard, if anything he respected him. Especially coming off of Bellamy, Blackbeard's encouragement was very much a sign of relief in that moment

[cedar sinew]

fosho. Just found it funny that all the dude did was read the panels then come up with "yep shanks will die"

[pure raven]

other than the Op Op fruit is there another fruit out there, canon or otherwise, that can have a user cheat death?

[subtle swan]

i mean in a way the soul soul fruit

[pure raven]

when we get a Death Death Fruit, I'm sure that's a surefire way, but @subtle swan I see what you mean

[manic relic]

Zoro > OP OP no mi

[manic relic]

I dont think that Shanks will die by BB because I think Shanks will see how Luffy will become pirate king. But I do think that BB will defeat Shanks in a fight and that after Luffy will finish off BB so he surpassed Shanks and proved Shanks that he is a great pirate by defeating someone he couldn't defeat. Just my personal thoughts

[pure raven]

👍

[light pond]

Ope ope cannot cheat death yomi yomi can but ope ope cannot do that, ope ope can give u eternal youth but not immortality that is different even hobi hobi give u eternal youth too

[weary cliff]

Sugar's fruit stops external aging, but that's not the same as the eternal youth surgery. Ope Ope can grant immortality in the sense that you won't succumb to age, but not the kind of immortality that makes you totally invulnerable. It's semantics. Different ideas of what being immortal entails

[pure raven]

So We'll see what the Death Death Fruit can do.

I wonder what the death death fruit would even do, maybe kill folk by touching them 💀

[weary cliff]

I doubt we'll get that. There's already Brook's fruit, which essentially exists as an excuse to have a talking skeleton on the crew, but it does what you're asking for on a reasonable level. And Moria has the capacity to sort of cheat death. A full death fruit sounds like something Oda would do if he wanted to pull a Naruto move, which I just dont see

[lilac mirage]

thanks, yours also nice

[lilac mirage]

law cant cut people with strong haki, but zoro can

[pure raven]

by the name alone, I'm sure the user would be a demigod, capable of all things involving life and death

[hot dragon]

I think the D. refers to people who smile. I believe the people of D are feared so much because they can't bow down to authority, because they LAUGH at whoever tries to oppose them. If you look at D, it is like a sideways smile. This ties back to the SMILE fruit that Kaido created. There is a reason why he named it SMILE and not something else. He wanted to obtain the power of the Will of D. artificially.

This goes back to chapter 1011 and what it gave us

[modest adder]

where can i watch the latest episode of one piece

[dusky acorn]

Not the right place, just go to #anime. the ep is in the channel info.

And the reason why SMILES were named that was pure coincidence, it happened after discovering the side-effects of them, and was done collectively by Doffy, Caesar and Kaido, not just him alone

As for D.'s laughing in the face of danger, I'm not sure about that. Law as a D. member right up on the rooftop showed pretty stark differences from Luffy's demeanour

And the whole thing about D.'s smiling after dying is deconfirmed from Law's dad, who was very clearly frowning right after being purged

[hollow crag]

There's also the theory that the D. clan were responsible for the existence of Devil Fruits.

[dusky acorn]

They tend to do so, but it's not all of them apparently

[subtle swan]

people keep talking about the death death fruit, did i miss something in the latest chapter/episode? i haven’t heard of it before

[weary cliff]

You didn't miss anything, it's just some speculation

[pure raven]

Yeah I just seen myself lol

[subtle swan]

oh ok

so it’s a theory fruit?

[weary cliff]

Well more like a fan fruit or "wouldn't it be cool if x" kind of thing

[subtle swan]

oh ok

[sonic plaza]

who do you guys think King will fight?

[craggy pumice]

Sanji

[slate zodiac]

There’s a bunch of emphasis on smiling/laughing in one piece

[pure raven]

if the D clan is called D because of
: D

I will be livid

[median flicker]

prometheus on your high peak

[upbeat wasp]

I think Conqueror's Haki slowly use life force and the other form of Haki use stamina. that why Conq. Haki so rare because it using your will power and using that life force of the user to amp up all attacks and skills. We seen other Conq. Haki user but most of them are old or dead. I think the sickness WB had is what Gol D had. the Conq. Haki is cutting years off there life and making there haki level drop down as they get older. also most of the people luffy also point out the stress he put his body under. I think Conq. Haki will have a cost like all other forms and haki have and also why people able to go days fighting without losing haki.

[weary cliff]

If so, BM and Kaido have gone some time without getting sick at all

[upbeat wasp]

I going with they younger then what WB is and for Gol D part. they have DF to fall back on. so they don't need to spam Conq. haki non-stop

or Gol D just love fighting WB more then kaido and Big mom XD

[grizzled fog]

Big mom is definitely older than roger was when he died

[true flame]

don chinjoa was pretty old, also garp, too

[upbeat wasp]

Yes, he 53 ans she 68 but roger dont have a DF to fall back . and Big mom plus Steal life force from people

[true flame]

ik someone is gonna say garp isnt confirmed for conq's but let's be real, he 99% does

[queen arrow]

Big Mom doesn't take the lifespan to herself, that's not how her power works

Garp isn't confirmed to have CoC, but Chinjao is and he's 78 years old which is the same age as Garp

[queen arrow]

i think it's weird they would confirm Sengoku to have it but no mention of it at all for Garp so i don't think he has it

[true flame]

eh disagree but its all speculation atm

[queen arrow]

Sengoku is another good example, since he's 1 year older than both of them

[upbeat wasp]

...hmm...I going with DF power again for Sengoku. I Really feel like I'm on to something here. the only person that can mess up my theory so far is Silver who have no DF and is 78 only thing I can say is Gol D jump in and took that person on for fun lol

[true flame]

I mean your only data points are roger and WB so theres about as many disproving examples as proving

[queen arrow]

how exactly would a devil fruit change anything about your haki

WB also had a devil fruit when he got sick, even though he's younger than Rayleigh Sengoku and Chinjao

[true flame]

lmao

[olive quail]

Yeahhhhh I think Roger was just sick and Whitebeard was just old and sick

[queen arrow]

they where probably just sick yes

[true flame]

roger def had some mysterious illness thats probably relevant but wb just seemed old

[queen arrow]

it happens, human beings get sick

[midnight heron]

what is this sickness?

[sand sail]

Life

[true flame]

damn if you think about it, a lot of deaths in OP have been with CoC people: roger, wb, ace, oden (inb4 shanks)

[queen arrow]

it you're counting Roger and Oden i have to point out the entirety of Ohara

i don't think they had CoC

[vestal bone]

They all had CoC

[true flame]

ah valid point but I'm mostly referring to named character deaths

[queen arrow]

Clover, Bellmere, Hiriluk, Olvia, Saul, Tom, Fisher Tiger

[vestal bone]

Kuina

[true flame]

honestly wouldnt be surprised if Tiger had CoC

[queen arrow]

no mention of him having so it so i doubt it

[upbeat wasp]

I was going off the idea they can use DF power and not use conq. haki. Haki seem to run on Stamina but Conq. Haki may use life force and will power to amp up other haki skills why it seem like they can fight for days and why kaido and big mom body seem to take no dmg until now.

[olive quail]

Uncurable anime disease #325

[queen arrow]

where did you even get "Conqueror's haki runs on life force" from because that makes no sense at all

and I'm pretty sure that their "invincibility" isn't haki based

[weak arrow]

I mean I can see it because of both Roger and WB's illness

[sand sail]

Kaido and Big Mom being unable to take damage was never because of their haki

We know why both of them are that way, conqueror's never had anything to do with it

[queen arrow]

and we already debunked the disease connection

[weak arrow]

Don't really see any debunking of it

[upbeat wasp]

Roger is 53 no DF so far and had a sickness that couldn't be fix , a theme of luffy being told each time he cutting his life span down and now being told he using too much haki and draining his body to now have a understanding of Conq. haki that seem to have no cost and we seen in action with no cost on roger or WB in a 3 day fight,

[sand sail]

If it were a matter of drain on life in some way that affected Roger with his illness, he wouldn't have still had a year left after fighting Whitebeard at his best for 3 days

[cunning fog]

it isn’t like an uncurable illness is that weird, the man could have just had terminal cancer

[sand sail]

We can't entirely say Roger's illness wasn't from immense haki drain, but he also hasn't had to climb over the kind of obstacles Luffy's getting through to get to Laugh Tale

[weak arrow]

There's a pretty good common #other-series example

[nocturne hawk]

Ash and Misty are going to marry each other at the end of one piece

[weak arrow]

Also he supposedly fought Garp countless times, Whitebeard a bit, and Shiki, Rocks, and probably many more

[queen arrow]

where are you pulling that the disease is connected to Conqueror's Haki at all

[cunning fog]

how old is big mom?

[novel zephyr]

68

[weak arrow]

It's really just from WB and Roger who both had conqueror's and probably had the coating. Then you have Whitebeard being too weak to use conqueror's in MF

[toxic zinc]

Not a bad guess but it's a tiktok.

[sand sail]

Conqueror's seems to be connected in some way to bodily health

[dusk atlas]

Hi guys im new here btw 😃

[sand sail]

As Whitebeard couldn't use it in Marineford the one time he tried

But it doesn't seem to be something that would cause an illness

[weak arrow]

Luffy can use it even after being KOed so it's sort of overall bodily health and not like, current state. If that makes sense

[cunning fog]

So BM is around WB’s death age. She doesn’t seem to get in intense fights with people that rival her level often at all, so if this theory were true she wouldn’t actually have to be getting sick soon. If she were to use a ton of CoC continuously through the rest of this arc, she should be getting more drained. Currently she is completely healthy tho

[upbeat wasp]

if years of your life getting cut away there no real way to proof what would happened to that person. do they get sick and die , do they just drop dead. how would a person really know if there life span is close to the end.

[weak arrow]

Yeah that's how I rationalize it. BM doesn't need to use Conqueror's coating often, thus remains healthy.

[cunning fog]

well a doctor may be able to tell them about how much longer they have left

[sand sail]

But, none of them would have to use it often

Unless they fought each other

[misty kernel]

Like someone else said earlier if CoC was really tied to his illness his time of death would’ve shorten the more he used it

[cunning fog]

Roger would have had to use it often based on the list Adam gave earlier

[misty kernel]

There’s no way it would’ve been a fixed time frame it would have to be a variable

[weak arrow]

Also he supposedly fought Garp countless times, Whitebeard a bit, and Shiki, Rocks, and probably many more
Hence this

[sand sail]

Yeh, but if Garp can't use it too, Roger's not going to be using it in excess against him

That fight wouldn't be like Luffy vs Kaido

I'm only assuming he can't because he and Chinjao didn't use it against each other, and Garp acknowledged he had to train up for Chinjao's horn but still didn't do it

[cunning fog]

If we get a rocks flashback this arc we could potentially see more of how this lines up with WB, Kaido, and BM. We know Rocks did get into fights with each other and we generally know much the later use it now. Although I wouldn’t expect them all to be using CoC coating back then, esp with Kaido as an apprentice. WB got into fights with Roger at least but since he just wanted a family it doesn’t seem like he was as actively getting into intense battles compared to Roger requesting Garp and Sengoku, so it makes sense he would live to 70s

[sand sail]

Hell, might be when Roger discovers it.

[weak arrow]

Garp's armament could be so much better than Roger's that Roger felt the need to use it. Especially considering Roger considers Garp a worthy fight.

[amber oar]

WB was in his late thirties, BM was 29, I would be surprised if they didn't have any signal of CoC

30, not 29, but still

[cunning fog]

WB and BM would be a probable yes then

[sand sail]

Could be, sure. Still wouldn't necessarily mean he'd need it in excess, but odds are Garp's wouldn't have been stronger than his if he had to train up to break Chinjao's horn

[cunning fog]

But in terms of the illness idea we would need to see how often they use it

[amber oar]

I dig the idea of someone so freakishly strong that doesn't need any "dirty" tricks like DFs or a God given ability

Garp could be one. Mihawk another. I wanted Zoro to be like that too but hey, canon is canon

[weak arrow]

Hey, given that sound effect evidence people have been posting the past few days, Zoro may still be one

[cunning fog]

well BM was freakishly strong from birth, yes she has CoC and DF, but the DF at least isn’t that needed since she has sm pure strength.

[midnight heron]

You know I was thinking the gorosei participated in roger and wb’s death

[amber oar]

only in the sense of "the gorosei rule above all the system", but that's a bit of a stretch... in that sense they participated in every marine kill

[midnight heron]

Would they have a reason to be as powerful as admirals or yonkos? Or they just have broken abilities

[amber oar]

they're supposed to be CDs, but the fact a couple of them look at the very least capable to fight is sus

[sacred hawk]

Big Mom is 10 years younger than Whitebeard

[amber oar]

6 years

[midnight heron]

Who’s w’sw? (Beast pirate 6 flying dude)

Y would it matter if jinnbe knows him?

Bad theory but at the end of wano, a bloodied down kaido tells luffy that god valley still exists

[upbeat wasp]

if it end like it should a person should come to the island and attack the crew or big mom

[remote matrix]

Nah the fact that she's invulnerable except when mother caramel's picture gets smashed is evidence she uses it constantly

[weak arrow]

She's been like that since birth. Unless you want to believe she's had the coating unconsciously her entire life.

[remote matrix]

Yes

That's pretty much how I interpreted it

I thought it was just regular haki that she always used unconsciously before we knew of coc coating though

[olive quail]

Anyone else curious about the figure on the left? Considering this was 20 years ago when Jack would have been 8. It could be a small mistake by Oda, but I've heard a theory that Avalo Pizarro of Blackbeard's crew could have been an All-Star before he was captured and imprisoned in level 6 of Impel Down. The silhoette fits him pretty well with his wide set horns and long hair.

[weak arrow]

Yeah certainly possible. It also lets us know that the All stars mechanic of beating the all star and moving up has actually occurred at least once

[olive quail]

Pizarro for comparison

[amber oar]

I don't think that panel is an actual scene that happened in-universe, but more like a symbolic representation of Kaido and his forces

[weak arrow]

I mean, I agree it's just symbolic but it still shows that those silhouettes existed

[olive quail]

Yeah this is clearly a representation of what the scabbards faced when Oden died. It would still be weird for Jack to be there.

[midnight heron]

hmmmm

what if he has some broken zoan mythical like minotaur?

[olive quail]

Maybe but i think ancient would fit the theme of the all stars

[midnight heron]

probably some cool historical mammal

there were a lot of cool mammals that existed back then that were arguably more badass than a mammoth or saber tooth.

[amber oar]

another minotaur-like creature would be redundant, we already have the minotaur from ID

also Pizarro has feline quirks, I'd expect him to be a feline zoan, perhaps lion

[olive quail]

What if he had the cat cat fruit, ancient model cave lion

[midnight heron]

"Avalo's favorite food is shark fin soup"

not sure if this is significant in any degree

[warped patio]

Maybe like model sabertooth or something like that

Common ancestor of a cat with scales

[sharp oracle]

i should have guessed when luffy out of nowhere started wearing black cape that he is going to get stronger......i think the cape thing in pirates not marines is wore by strong pirates like roger,whitebeard,shanks,bigmom,kaido,and rayleah and who has great fleat like shiki and i always wondered when luffy will wear it but suddenly before this raid started he started wearing it....i guess this the oda way of saying he is going to become yonko lvl now....... i might be wrong...there might be other pirates who wears it too....but why should luffy wear it in start of this raid specifically.??

[real swan]

The coat definitely adds an official look to Luffy's figure but he also just does whatever he wants lol. Seems to be a preferred way to wear it in the One Piece world.

[sharp oracle]

other than wano i only seen him wear it during 1 filler arc thats with shiki where every strawhat wore it.

[violet orchid]

Kaido had 8 concrete losses as an official pirate 7 times and was captured by his enemies (possibly including before he became a pirate in his own right) 18 times. That's a bit more than a few mate.

I don't think Oden would have taken more L's if he lived in the big seas. He was born strong literally from the cradle. He probably got stronger on Roger's ship but he was able to pressure WB before that (although WB was not using his conquerors).

And my point is based on taking their past as it is.

[pastel summit]

18 times over 4 decades, yeah.

luffy has lost about 10 times in 2 yrs.

[violet orchid]

Oden most likely would have been able to beat most of the people who defeated early Kaido imo.

I'm not saying Kaido was weak, just that there was a big disparity between the two that he had to bridge.

[pastel summit]

if oden started when kaido did, then I'm sure he would've lost just as much, if not more. but w/e. don't really want to powerscale in this channel.

[violet orchid]

if oden started when kaido did, then I'm sure he would've lost just as much
Like I said I personally think Oden was much stronger than Kaido even in their beginning days because Kaido was just a pirate apprentice around the same time Oden was doing this (and none of the apprentices we've seen so far were impressive in their youth) but fair enough mate.
When we get to the inevitable flashback I'll give you a ping and we'll see whether I was right or wrong haha.

[livid glen]

when Luffy and Shanks meet would they attacl each other life Whitebeard and Roger. Both smiling, and Conguerors Haki going everywhere 🙂

and then have a huge banquet 😉

[dull pumice]

That's nice. It will be a shame when Blackbeard kills him before he can meet Luffy

[livid glen]

nope

[dull pumice]

Don't worry it will be sad but you're strong enough to get through

[dusty galleon]

Where dya get this translation?

This isn't viz, right?

[night jewel]

nope

[violet orchid]

No

Not sure where it's from g

[dusty galleon]

It type setting and ther art look surprisingly clean for a scanlation

[violet orchid]

It was by one of those half-official scanlation teams.

[tropic cape]

I’m still of the belief that Kaido only won because Oden was caught off guard by Momo screaming for help

“Momo”

[dusty galleon]

They are entirely non-official

And yeah that's what I mean, for scanlation team work it looks surprisingly good

[violet orchid]

Yes, but not as non-official as some random weeb on a discord doing it for free

[tropic cape]

official doesn’t equal accurate

[violet orchid]

It's like the world government (viz) versus organized piracy of the yonkou (scanlation teams) versus some random jobber pirate (fan translation).

[dusty galleon]

I wasn't even talking about the translation

I was talking about the general art quality and the typesetting and stuff

[tropic cape]

good thing i wasn’t replying to you lol

[vestal isle]

anyone know of any cool theories in video form

pls no morj he breaks my brain

[neat estuary]

Hey guys

What are we talking about?

[steel breach]

Your mom

[neat estuary]

Luff, traf> kid

Shanks fucked him up, huh?

Oh, and kaido

He is an idiot he deserved it

[grizzled fog]

🙄

[neat estuary]

At least the others are true Ds his df is a cheap trick

Anyway...

So can anyone remind me if we know the location of the last poneglyph?

[steel breach]

Your mom

[neat estuary]

Heh

[granite bluff]

poneglyph or road poneglyph

[neat estuary]

Road

[granite bluff]

we don't know but probably with shanks

[neat estuary]

Elbaf perhaps?

[granite bluff]

perhaps

or maybe with the world gov

we dont really have any proof or hint that could tell us where it is

[neat estuary]

Well... the giants could carry it...

Any new bs theory of late that I should know?

Just for fun

Sigh.... Not in the mood?

[exotic marsh]

my theory is that he will awaken his devil fruit n maybe end up controlling gravity combined with ryou and conquerors none cld match huim even with furture sight

[neat estuary]

yyyeah, that too.

[exotic marsh]

i wld b sooo hyped when he master ryou n starts doing combos n like even a new gear hes got so man y possibilieties

[mellow sapphire]

So I'm curious, has Rokushiki been officially retconned as being Haki-based?

[sand sail]

No, it seems training for both just has some similarity, Rokushiki is entirely a physical martial art

[mellow sapphire]

But everyone in CP9 is listed as having it though

According to the Vivre cards

[sand sail]

Yeah, I'm sure now they all do for sure, but Rokushiki are not haki techniques

[vital pilot]

Blackbeard vs luffy before finding Op. and after it straw hats vs navy correct?

[mellow sapphire]

Maybe? Who knows what the hell is gonna go down at Laughtale

predicting this far in advance seems pretty fraught

[vital pilot]

Yaa think bb is just useing D as fake

[mellow sapphire]

No

[vital pilot]

Was watching Paramount war. It connects.

[onyx fjord]

this theory i looked at rotted my brain

i think this might be the dumbest shit ive seen in a while

[ripe coral]

Theory... so you know when white beard and gold d roger battled??? Gold d roger mentioned one more island he has to go to. he borrowd white beard's commander for one year for him to find the island. I suspect that that last island is where the one Piece is because gold d roger said that he was almost done being a pirete

[cunning fog]

yeah everytime I see this photo I lose brain cells

[vestal isle]

i watched that video too, dumbest thing ive seen

[vital pilot]

What

🤯

[fringe tide]

Not a theory but im hoping ulti will have a rage moment where she actually hurts bm, nami/usupp comedically cries and then bm just utterly destroys ulti

[mellow sapphire]

if we learned anything Big Mom is weak to headbutts lol

But we'll see

I'm kinda shocked by how little Nami and Usopp were able to deal with ol' Paypay

You know what's something I want to see? A scenario where Sanji has to protect Zoro's mangled half-dead marimo body

[fringe tide]

Eh not me, nami/ussop are suppose to weak so i didnt really see them taking down paypay/ulti, imo those two are mostly fodder controlheck im surprise they manage to survive as long as they have

And i think next chapter sanji will run into law/zoro since law room them away from the roof. I dont really see anyone else that can protect zoro besides sanji and jimbe and jimbes fighting whoswho

[slate zodiac]

Could be

[dusky acorn]

Teach had the initial since he was a kid, meaning he was likely born with it. Whitebeard refers to its existence on him to Roger during their final meeting. The only reason he would be feigning it is if he somehow already knew the significance behind it as a child. But even then, what's the purpose of doing so? There's no trophy to be had out of faking yourself as a D. member

[mellow sapphire]

Yeah only people in the know understand its importance

hence why the government tried to hide it with Roger

Who was the first one to mention the Will of D? Kureha right?

[dusky acorn]

Indeed she was, who also knew Gol D. Roger's real name being with the initial, while Dalton didn't.

[mellow sapphire]

Nami's gonna end up just like Kureha in the future isn't she lol

[vestal isle]

pls no

[spark sage]

Eh, why

[dusky acorn]

We already know how Nami is going to look due to the SBS, she'll be alright.

[mellow sapphire]

yeah I was joking lol

[dusky acorn]

Well my bad. I always assume everyone is serious since that's what the channel rules are. Guess that's something you can keep that in mind for the future though

[true flame]

Oh shit this is probably obvious to everyone already, but I just realized that Luffy and the nine other Strawhats exactly parallel Oden and the Akazaya Nine

That is to say, the theory about there being a traitor (e.g. Jinbei) among the strawhats makes more sense now which sucks

[grizzled fog]

uh what

Whats this about a traitor among the crew? lol i don’t think that’s very likely

[true flame]

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/n1at7p/jinbei_theory_which_i_hope_is_wrong_manga_spoilers/

[cyan berry]

Why would jinbei betray them after everything he did for Luffy

[true flame]

I think its increddiiiiiiibly unlikely, given how jinbei is so damn loyal. But also, there is literally no strawhat who isnt that loyal, really

[weak arrow]

Jinbe, the man who would have died for luffy to protect him for Akainu, the traitor

[grizzled fog]

Having a single traitor among the Strawhats really just isn’t that plausible

[cyan berry]

Jinbei saved Luffy after Marineford, helped him get his bearings straight again, took the full brunt of Big Mom's attack to let thek escape from WCI, followed them all the way to Wano to help them against Kaido, and is now fighting one of their Flying 6

No matter how you look at it, Jinbei is one of the least likely characters to ever betray

[true flame]

I agree. But the whole strawhats / akazaya nine traitor thing is really throwing me off. Oda loves his parallels. It's weird to me

[grizzled fog]

We know all these crew members too intimately and far too well for any of them to be hiding something like this

[cyan berry]

There is no parallel

[grizzled fog]

They aren’t really paralleled

[weak arrow]

At best, someone "betrays" the strawhats because they trust them, sorta similar to what sanji did for robin with black maria

[cyan berry]

The scabbards and the strawhats are nothing alike, just because they both followed one man doesn't mean there's a parallel

[true flame]

I mean Luffy is literally carrying the will of Oden by liberating Wano, defeating Kaido. Meanwhile, his crew his nine fiercely loyal followers who he gathered. There are very clear parallels. That's not to say everything needs to line up

[cyan berry]

You realize the same can apply for Kid and Law right

[grizzled fog]

That’s not a very clear parallel lol

[true flame]

not at all. Kid has 1 relevant crewmate. Law doesn't have any basically lmao, though I still love bepo.

[keen portal]

Jinbe, the fishman who broke a huge taboo in front of everyone on fishman island by giving Luffy his own blood. That jinbe, will now betray the strawhats.

Uh sure.

[cyan berry]

Who brought up relevancy to this scenario? Also let's not pretend that Usopp wouldn't get beat up by Heat and Wire or Bepo

[weak arrow]

I mean, obviously Toki meant the 9 scabbards when she made the prophecy, but many people stated in reality it would be the strawhats because they equal 9. However, we now know Oden told Toki Wano would be liberated by strong pirates 20 years from now, not the scabbards, so the 9 shadows are not really talking about them. + yeah, it's not just the strawhats, it's a huge alliance of many notable figures

• um

the prophecy was already fulfilled

[true flame]

prophecy very clearly has not been fulfilled yet. Oda will probably make it very clear when it has been.

[weak arrow]

Here it is being fulfilled as stated by Toki

gross actually

i guess the prophecy hasnt been fulfilled yet, nvm

@gloomy canyon How do you feel the prophecy will be incorporated? We need 9 characters to stand up and cast shadows while the moon glows on them, and presumably the rooftop makes the most sense for that to occur

[grizzled fog]

Do we actually have to see the shadows to say it’s been fulfillled?

[weak arrow]

Well tbf that panel i just posted makes it seem like a yes

but it's letting us know it wasnt the prophetic moment by emphasizing the sun instead of the moon

[grizzled fog]

Well if it hasn’t already happened, I’m guessing the scabbards will have to return to the roof, in which case I anticipate them finishing kaido

But honestly I kinda don’t think that will happen

[true flame]

it's really clear to me that the scabbards will not be the people to fulfill the prophecy

[grizzled fog]

I don’t really see the Strawhats doing it

[true flame]

Either it will be a bunch of people from all over—say, from the strawhats, kid, law, some scabbards, some allies like marco, etc.—or it will be one distinct group. Like, you know, the group that this manga is about. The Strawhats

[weak arrow]

I don't think it has to be the strawhats, at least, just whoever happens to be on the roof near the end, or literally whoever gets moon shined on them

[grizzled fog]

Kinda can’t be the scabbards at this point, kanjuro is on the opposite side, ashura is dead and others probably gonna end up with other roles

[weak arrow]

So if Tama is under the hole on the roof and she gets that moonshine, she counts

[true flame]

Conveniently, there are exactly as many strawhats as oden + scabbards

[grizzled fog]

Forget the oden part, it says 9 in the prophecy

[dense wing]

Occam's razor says Straw Hats but yeah it could be any set of 9-10 figures in the raid

[weak arrow]

Well there's 10 strawhats, hence this dumb jinbe traitor theory

[dense wing]

A traitor was part of the full prophecy?

[weak arrow]

no

[true flame]

So if it is the Strawhats, which is an assumption you do not have to agree with, there will be one strawhat missing. It could be luffy, for example, if he's busy doing something else. Or a strawhat could be captured (there's been some indication that Ussop might get captured). OR a strawhat could turn. Which would be in line with the many themes of betrayal in wano so far

[weak arrow]

just that the prophecy specifies 9 shadows. And there are 10 strawhats.

Unless Luffy metaphorically is the moon in the prophecy

[dense wing]

Then Jinbei doesn't have to be a traitor and it can just be the 9 Straw Hats barring their captain, who may be symbolically away

[grizzled fog]

Traitor theory is honestly stupid, so either luffy isnt apart of the nine or jinbe gets left out for some reason

[gloomy canyon]

It's hard to really say. Especially now that Ashura is likely dead or at least a dead man walking. I don't think it will be all the supernova, coz there's only 8 present. I don't really know how this comes to fruition. I still think it refers to the scabbards. But I just don't know. As you know I only think Luffy and Yamato are left to face Kaido

[grizzled fog]

I agree evan, hard to imagine at this point. Honestly think it might have been fulfilled already on the roof and it was just not highlighted

[true flame]

that would be realllly unlike Oda

Oda loves foreshadoing, and very clear parallels. Down to the framing of the panels, the dialogue, the imagery, etc. Part of the prophecy is that "you will know the brilliance of dawn", so it should almost certainly coincide with the sunrise

[gloomy canyon]

Well yeah, I can see Kaido's defeat or even death happen at dawn, but the 9 shadows thing is kind of hard to speculate on.

It could just be referring to the scabbards who already faced Kaido

[grizzled fog]

Kinda loses some impact if it already happened with the scabbards who got absolutely clapped, and it’s hard to picture all 9 scabbards making it back up there given how things are now with ashura, inu fighting etc. And I can’t imagine the Strawhats all going up there either, although I guess it makes more sense than scabbards at this point

I’d like it to be the scabbards though

[dense wing]

Oh yeah the 9 have the be there at dawn

Again it can honestly be a set of significant figures in the raid

Rooftop 5 and 4 more

Yamato, Momo, Drake,

[weak arrow]

Yeah the more i like at it, Luffy literally is the moon

and the strawhats are the shadows

I guess yamato really aint joining afterall

[grizzled fog]

Luffy, Law, Kid, Marco, Killer, Zoro, Yamato, Drake, Hawkins

[dense wing]

Based off this I believe Marco could be one of the 9 with Yamato ye

Snake/Turtle being Luffy

[grizzled fog]

Why would luffy be the Genbu

[weak arrow]

Luffy is the moon, unaware of his role. His purpose being fulfilled is the fact that he's one of the 2 promised ones (the other being shirahoshi), and he will cast his 9 shadows (the strawhats) and he will learn of his importance after the climax is over, presumably from 1 of the many poneglyphs on wano

[dense wing]

Snakeman and potentially turtleman but that's my headcanon more than anything. I think it's clear Oda has used this though due to Phoenix and Byakku(?)

[grizzled fog]

He’s totally used it with Kaido and Yamato who’s defo a byakko, dunno about the other two

[dense wing]

Yeah, guess we'll see

[grizzled fog]

If Marco is vermillion bird it makes sense if BB is genbu

[gloomy canyon]

I could see a panel of the SHs all casting shadows with the rise of the sun or something, but I don't think this means that they are going to defeat Kaido

[grizzled fog]

Maybe they can all cast shadows without being on the roof? Like having holes in the walls or roof and casting shadows at the same time

In their own fights

[gloomy canyon]

I can see yamato seeing this imagery of the 9 shadows plus Luffy and them crying as they realize Toki's prophecy has been fulfilled

Wait but does Yamato know the prophecy, was that in the logbook?

But yeah Adam I have no clue really. My first guess is the scabbards but it's looking like they're all going to go do something else and Kin is focused on Kanjuro (and Ashura might be dead)

[novel zephyr]

Theres no reason it shoudl be in the log book, as it was made after he died right

[weak arrow]

Well maybe part of it is

It looks like half the prophecy is a quote from somewhere and half is her own feelings

[pseudo citrus]

the prophecy was made after oden died, but as orochi was terrified of the prophecy, there's no reason yamato couldn't have found out about the prophecy just from chilling on onigashima

[tame pilot]

Snake turltle the green bull admiral

[real swan]

All this dawn talk and I'm remembering that Luffy was born on Dawn Island, if that adds to anything.

[gilded flame]

Nine Shadows of Strawhats with the "brilliance of dawn " being Luffy himself

[gilded flame]

Dawn?
Wasnt it Goa Kingdom or something like that

[real swan]

The Goa Kingdom is apparently on Dawn Island

[gilded flame]

woah okay

[real swan]

Yea I have just realized that myself too, it's all coming together.

[muted veldt]

Does anyone believe that green bull has toki's fruit?

[real swan]

The admiral?

[muted veldt]

yea

[dark palm]

I don't think oda will be reintroducing the time fruit

[gilded flame]

or it just might be nine shadows of dead bodies (Red Scabbards)

[real swan]

No idea, I just remember his intro saying he hadnt eaten in a long time or something like that.

[gilded flame]

We canrt admire thr brilliance of dawn or "new hope", unless we go into deep despire

[muted veldt]

the reason I say is because it'd fit with the other two admirals being light and gravity

[gilded flame]

imagine the shadows would be dead bodies of scabbards

[dark palm]

what would a time fruit have to do with him not eating?

[muted veldt]

He might have gone forward in time

[gilded flame]

but i dont get the point of re introducing time time fruit

[dark palm]

there is no point

[real swan]

Would be interesting, but Oda is very iffy about characters actually dying.

[dark palm]

it would be a headache for everyone

[gilded flame]

imginf the fruit being lost in time

[dark palm]

and it seems more like he physically hasn't eaten in three entire years

not that he jumped forward three years

[gilded flame]

yea

he just might be fasting lol

[real swan]

So interesting, is there anyone else in the story who's been able to not eat for so long?

[light pond]

I still belive ryokugyu have a plant based df only logical explanation there is

Also plant is green just like his color

[dark palm]

crocodiles can go years without eating...

[real swan]

Plant would be funny

[muted veldt]

I also think it could be a plant devil fruit, but I kind of doubt zoan

[real swan]

Must be a banana head...

[light pond]

Why? Dont u think plant is a devastating power for an admiral?

[real swan]

I dont think it would be bad at all, I'm just thinking of how insane Oda would make that look. But it would be great if he just photosynthesized food lol.

[dark leaf]

maybe ryokugyu could sprout massive tree-trunk-like vines that just tear everything up in his path

[shell moth]

Have you seen Sanji's raid suit concept. Looks like a black hair. Still bet his genetics will kick off

[pure raven]

I cant wait to see Green Bull fuck shit up

[real swan]

Could look more like that when usopp and franky redesign it. I'm hoping he never gets the altered genes, that would mess with what his mom did for him.

[shell moth]

His mother wanted him to still have a personality and not be a mere cold soldier. Which I still think he would keep

[ripe coral]

What if the phonoglifs told yu were the aincent wepond were

[ionic wigeon]

who thinks there will be a second "god valley" with shanks/luffy vs blackbeard

[amber oar]

it doesn't have to be "a second x"

[ionic wigeon]

fair enough i mean like something like god valley

[ripe coral]

Theory... when gold D roger and whitebeard faught. after roger said he needed to see one more isand befor he was gana be exacuted... he also said he needed white beards commander to find it. I think that that last island is were the one piece is. I think the one piece is sogekings mask!!!!

[ionic wigeon]

the one piece is probably what joyboy left behind tbh

[ripe coral]

no

its sogekings mask

[bleak pine]

but who is sogeking

[ionic wigeon]

yassop

[bleak pine]

we need his real identity revealed before the one piece

[ionic wigeon]

ussop made him up

[atomic apex]

One piece fans try not to make a sogeking/buggy/condoriano joke every 3 seconds challenge (INSTANT FAIL)

[bleak pine]

but he is usopps friend isnt he?

[ionic wigeon]

ussop has DID

[bleak pine]

how can usopp make him up

[atomic apex]

He is usopp.

[bleak pine]

bro... u think i am stupid

[ionic wigeon]

thank you mod

[bleak pine]

just joined anyway so idrc

[atomic apex]

You are not funny bro

[bleak pine]

cool ig

[ionic wigeon]

cringe

[night jewel]

lets keep it to theories here, and serious ones only 🙂

[bleak pine]

what if luffy extends his ass and devours kaido

idk just a theory

[ionic wigeon]

ffs

[bleak pine]

paha

[ionic wigeon]

@night jewel

[bleak pine]

idrc tbh

[ionic wigeon]

shut this fool up

[bleak pine]

grass me up i can live without this server

[ionic wigeon]

you will regret that man

this server is great just follow the fockhin rules innit

[pure raven]

The more you egg on a troll the more they will troll @ionic wigeon

[ionic wigeon]

thanks kyodai

[real swan]

On a more serious note, but still a bit of a stretch, I'm beginning to think everything in the OP world is "alive" to some extent, inanimate objects included. The biggest clue I believe comes from the mentioning of Lineage Factors and the idea that Devil Fruits can alter them when they are eaten. If we use that, and look back on how inanimate objects have been given Devil Fruit abilities, and therefore life, it seems as though these objects have been alive or have had a Lineage Factor of their own to begin with.

Additionally, the other big clue comes from the VoaT, and possibly the idea of swordsmen perceiving the "breath" of objects to understand how they can be cut. This is a strange phenomenon in which characters are able to communicate with or listen to unspeakable or inanimate objects.

There's just something about inanimate objects and the how the VoaT works that just seems incredibly mysterious given how far we are into the story. VoaT seems pretty linked to the Void Century and/or the Great Kingdom given how almost half the users are Kozuki members.

[ionic wigeon]

Well he's not wrong

[real swan]

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

[pure raven]

Sorry but could you define VoaT?

I cant rememver and searched online nothing there

[real swan]

The voice of all things.

[pure raven]

So is it possible that the treasture at laughtale is also alive ?

[real swan]

I've been wondering about that, unfortunately we are like 1-2 good clues away from getting a real good idea I think. One thing I will say is that I think this in some way also extends to the inherited will concept, and how it might not be restricted to people, but also objects. Like how one person dies another inherits their will/dreams, bit then you also have devil fruits which are passed down in time.

Cause something also needs to explain why devil fruits regenerate after a users death and how that even works.

[whole jewel]

Hey, quick thought: Mihawk joins the Red Hair's after getting warlord title revoked and finishes fighting the marines.

[real swan]

Honestly would be pretty cool. He might be forced to join a crew and being with shanks provides more of an interesting fight:
Shanks vs Luffy
Usopp vs yassop
Zoro vs mohawk
Etc.

And they also have a history

[whole jewel]

fr

[broken laurel]

Oi guys i have a thory

Blackbeards original devil fruit is to steal other devil fruits, that’s how he has the ability to use more than one devil fruit.

[pure raven]

Hidden feature of Yami Yami or a fruit he ate before the Yami Yami?

[broken laurel]

A fruit he ate before

Btw
No one ever told as that the fruit wb pirates got is the yami yami no mi
So this is maybe the fruit that allows u stealing other devil fruits

[pure raven]

I'm confident there's a panel that confirms it

[cedar sinew]

BB says he stole the yami yami from thatch

[pure raven]

I heard a wild theory that because Edward Thatch was the real Blackbeard's name, Teach waited for Thatch to eat the Yami Yami so he could take his fruit in the same way (via an original fruit) that he took Whitebeard's fruit

I'd prefer no original fruit and just straight cannibalism (like Big Mom) which is why Ace had such a vendetta against Teach, defying even Whitebeard's orders

[cedar sinew]

we see thatch holding the devil fruit so

I'm pretty sure he stole the fruit

Ace tracked him down because 1) BB was in his unit 2) Killing crewmates is the only forbidden act in the crew

[pure raven]

He stole it but it's revealed that Thatch died. Teach was planning on bouncing anyway so why didn't he take the fruit, eat it and then attack Thatch by taking him into his void?

I feel like he pulled the same stuff that he did to WB

[amber oar]

Thatch was an Emperor commander at the end, sure obtaining the df was a little more complicated than just grabbing it?

[pure raven]

Teach was considered to be a commander too

And that was for the same division Ace was in

[amber oar]

the point is that Thatch was no fodder. So it's perfectly feasible they had a fight for the fruit.

[cedar sinew]

Well the first answer that comes to mind is that BB didn't give a shit about anything once he found the yami yami no mi because 1) He's smart but he also oftentimes acts rashly 2) This is what he has been waiting for for a LONG time, he didn't want to take any risks BECAUSE there was no way of getting the DF if Thatch happened to eat it

and he only found out how to get DF abilities like the gura gura once he obtained yami yami's power

[pure raven]

Could be that he convinced Thatch (after eating it) that he's a logia and then used that to his advantage by stabbing him

[pure raven]

This is unconfirmed

[cedar sinew]

yeah I know I'm saying that that's how I view it

[amber oar]

Teach wasn't even sure if it was going to work

[cedar sinew]

I feel that this is unnecessarily overly complex

when the simple answer could've been

he killed thatch before he ate the fruit, got the fruit, and ran away

[grizzled fog]

?

Oh you meant considered for the position, nvm

[pure raven]

In the manga he said he turned down the position and Ace asked him if it was alright and Teach said he doesn't have that kind of ambition

ah I see yea the wording was vague

[pure raven]

a second time because he already had a fruit

mannnn I can't wait until more about Teach is revealed

[real swan]

He's definitely the most interesting part about this mystery. Like he's a D. who doesn't normally act like one, has more than one devil fruit, believes in Luffy's dreams but is still evil, etc.

[weak arrow]

@dusky acorn https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/n2bpgz/i_might_have_an_idea_on_what_eustass_kidd_took/ thought you might wanna take a look at this

[pure raven]

OHHHHH how did I not make the "Captain" connection

you guys think nami's tangerine trees will ever grow a devil fruit

[dusky acorn]

Oh almost 2000 upvotes this is gonna be good. glad you actually keep tabs on the subreddit adam

[pure raven]

i think they are going to play some sort of role devil fruit wise

[polar bison]

disappointment tbh

wait actually I do like this as an alt explanation for what he took

but idk that kidd particularly cares about treasure or would be the type to care about his father’s treasure rather than just like, avenging him

[tawdry bramble]

So after confirming Enma is using Zoro’s haki we’re dumb with the ridiculous notion that Zoro doesn’t actually have conquerors haki right?

[grizzled fog]

How are those two related?

[pure raven]

i mean out of all things nami's foster mom left her tangerine trees when she died, why not a hat, some mittens., or a compass

[pure raven]

treasure, even material, can have an emotional value. It could be related to him, his father or some other loved ones

it's too obvious of a plot device imo

[tawdry bramble]

Because some claimed that conquerors haki Kaidou felt was Odens in Enma

[grizzled fog]

Oh right, well there’s still technically the idea that the attack was just so strong it gave off the same feeling as coc to kaido, but yea it’s pretty much confirmed

[polar bison]

no.

[tawdry bramble]

Zoro deniers are hilarious

[polar bison]

im literally a zoro fan

[grizzled fog]

I’m not even denying it lol, I’m sure he has coc, but don’t say it’s confirmed when it’s not

[tawdry bramble]

And you think he doesn’t have conquerors?

It literally was confirmed. By Kaidou.

[polar bison]

yeah because my appreciation of a character is based on more than whether or not they have an arbitrary power that means literally nothing for them

[pure raven]

there's always the remote possibility that what Kaidou saw wasn't conqueror's but something else, but idk if it's a relevant possibility

[polar bison]

and then denied. by Zoro. for a zoro fan u sure like to ignore ur favorite character

[tawdry bramble]

It’s hugely important and magnifies his potential.

No Zoro was just oblivious. Him being unaware isn’t the same as him denying having it.

[polar bison]

🥱

zoro having Coc isnt confirmed until we actually see him use it or acknowledge he has it

[tawdry bramble]

Ya’ll crack me up.

Entire chapter devoted to conquerors haki being applied to attacks.
Kaidou confirms zoro applied it to his attack.
Luffy asks about applying it to his attacks.
Luffy starts applying it to his attacks.

[polar bison]

if you want to know why I think he doesn’t, you are free to read the theory. if you want to call me stupid for thinking he doesn’t, you are free to respond directly to the theory.

it’s pinned goodbye

[grizzled fog]

Aaand now you are making headcanon leaps, saying Zoro has coc is one thing, saying he applied it to his attacks is another. Kaido never said he applied it to the attack

[tawdry bramble]

XD

[visual merlin]

The other people are saying Kaido doesn't confirm zoro applied it to his attack though, repeating that isn't really a point against them

[tawdry bramble]

Kaidou literally says he used it to attack him. That’s not headcannon. It’s how he figured out Zoro has it.

[polar bison]

kaidou isn’t very smart

[visual merlin]

he doesn't say he used it to attack him, he asks zoro if he has CoC

that could just as much mean he felt zoro awaken normal CoC there

[dusky acorn]

Petty decent theory Adam. I kind of like Kid searching for John's treasure because it gives a more concrete resolution to his character arc if he were going for that, by the time the story is over. I just want more to him than the One Piece is all

[tawdry bramble]

After being attacked and feeling the effects of it. In the chapter we learn it can be applied to attacks.

It’s literally the most basic writing

[grizzled fog]

He did not say that

[visual merlin]

also after zoro tries his hardest to pull out his power in a dire situation, could've also been that he's simply awakening normal CoC there

[tawdry bramble]

Zoro attacks
Kaidou gets a scar for the first time since another CoC user scarred him.
Kaidou realizes Zoro has Conquerors
This all during the chapter we learn CoC can be applied during attacks

Kaidou literally says it after checking out his wound

[grizzled fog]

No evidence that oden used coc either lol

[tawdry bramble]

Lol we also don’t know for a fact that Luffy applied it to his attacks.

[tawdry bramble]

We are just assuming. Nobody has said that’s what CoC application looks like. People are just assuming.

[visual merlin]

In my view
Zoro tries his best in a dire situation with an attack (unintentionally unlocks normal COC)
Kaido gets a scar for the second time (Oden didn't use CoC either if you ask me)
Kaido senses the CoC
Last part is irrelevant

[grizzled fog]

All these attacks have some pretty clear visual indicators, there’s also the no touching part, Luffy has had those. Zoro and oden did not

[tawdry bramble]

We don’t know for a fact they are CoC attacks.

[visual merlin]

would you disagree that these trails have been indicators of advanced CoC?

[tawdry bramble]

We don’t know. Just saying factually nobody has stated that.

[pure raven]

lol the zoro CoC debate has been going on for like a month and everyone thinks they have some detail... i'm just going to assume kaido was right until shown otherwise, there's no evidence to suggest he doesn't have it.. it makes since as he's supposed to be Luffy's right hand man and a reflection of Rayleigh.. the even both have eye scars

[visual merlin]

okay, so what's your opinion on it?

[tawdry bramble]

If we can’t safely assume Zoro has CoC we can’t assume that those attacks are CoC either.

Burden of proof is silly sometimes when it’s obvious what the story is trying to convey.

[visual merlin]

Okay but your opinion is what Im asking for, you think zoro used advanced CoC, does this also mean you think those trails are not indicators of advancec CoC?

[tawdry bramble]

I think that you can apply CoC at different levels just like Armament.

[pure raven]

I'm not even sure we know what advanced CoC is yet

[tawdry bramble]

Zoro didn’t use the super advanced no touch version but he did apply some CoC to his attack.

Just like armament hasn’t always been shown to blacken attacks.

But we know there are levels of how much one can apply armament.

[visual merlin]

He still did not have the trail, which would be evidence against him using advanced CoC, so would you say they are not an indicator? Or is it that the trail only applies to the super advanced no touch?

[pure raven]

or he used CoC unrelated to the offensive part of the attack and Kaidou sensed it

[grizzled fog]

Armament being applied at a basic level doesn’t always get drawn as black by oda, but it’s no different. Invisible hardening and black hardening are exactly the same

[pure raven]

I don't think Zoro has control over his CoC, therefore I'm not sure he has "advanced CoC" .. advanced CoC may not be just applying it to your attack in the moment... that may just be how some people demonstrate it

[tawdry bramble]

Trail seems to be no touch version.

Kaidou’s implication was clearly related to zoro’s attack.

[pure raven]

advanced CoC may be bending it to your will

[tawdry bramble]

But yes I think Zoro did apply some CoC to his attack.

[visual merlin]

it was related to that moment, not necessarily the attack

[tawdry bramble]

He said it not before checking his wound but after.

[pure raven]

some people may apply it to their attacks and not even know it / have no control over it

[visual merlin]

So he's basing it off how much damage it does and not sensing it?

[tawdry bramble]

Clearly implying it was related to the attack and damage done.

[pure raven]

there may be numerous ways that one can use it

[visual merlin]

If that's the case, that is pretty good for the group of people who think he simply mistook it for CoC since it did so much damage

[polar bison]

ragnaraku says otherwise, it definitely touched luffy

[polar bison]

:’-)

[tawdry bramble]

Sure maybe it’s not then.

[visual merlin]

if it's about how badly it hurt him rather than sensing, Kaido's statement is harder to trust

[tawdry bramble]

But also entirely possible that Oda didn’t invent no touch version until after that attack.

[polar bison]

? after which attack

[pure raven]

I, personally, when I read it, just saw it as Kaidou sensing his use of CoC, unrelated to the attack itself

[grizzled fog]

Roger and wb didn’t touch

[polar bison]

because there were examples of ppl not touching both before and after Kaidou whacked Luffy in the face with Ragnaraku

[tawdry bramble]

That was after Luffy first getting hit with Thunder Bagua

[pure raven]

but that stayed tho

[grizzled fog]

And? That bagua didn’t have coc, you said oda didn’t think of the no touching until after ragnaraku

[polar bison]

this is the CoC attack that touched.

[visual merlin]

ragnarok was after Roger vs WB, if you're agreeing that it touched then we can't say Oda just invited it after ragnarok

[tawdry bramble]

We don’t know that’s CoC confirmed. We’re just assuming.

[visual merlin]

Are you not agreeing roger vs wb was CoC?

[tawdry bramble]

The only debatably guaranteed CoC attack was the first Thunder Bagua Luffy got hit by.

[visual merlin]

?

[pure raven]

What if basic CoC can be displayed in several ways... but advanced CoC is turning it into what you want it to be

[polar bison]

same way you’re assuming Zoro has CoC then, if you don’t 100% agree that Ragnaraku was Coc

[visual merlin]

the only guaranteed one was Ragnarok

[tawdry bramble]

I’m just saying it’s not confirmed. It’s a community assumption.

[visual merlin]

that's the one we can assume Luffy was referring to at least

the Baguas are up in the air

[visual merlin]

Lets talk about your opinions on it then

[gloomy canyon]

I think you're thinking of the TCB translation. The official changed it to just "after taking THAT hit from your club"

[polar bison]

this would be a fair argument for asura being CoC, except we’ve seen all of Big Mom/WB/Kaidou/Roger and now Luffy use aCoC that pretty much all looks the same. there’s really no reason to believe Zoro’s CoC would be different.

like ngl. I think it’d be absolutely sick if Zoro was a different type of conqueror and therefore expressed it differently.

but there’s zero precedent for that so I think he’s just not a conqueror at all

[tawdry bramble]

Thanks I missed that

Haki’s can be applied in different ways. No reason to think CoC can’t be

[polar bison]

except that everyone we’ve seen do it has done it the same

[tawdry bramble]

Not shanks

[polar bison]

and the people I just listed are all very very different people. we haven’t seen shanks do it

[tawdry bramble]

He used his to do AoE damage to a ship.

[visual merlin]

that's normal CoC though, we've seen others do that

[polar bison]

that’s just normal CoC. Luffy and Kata did that too

[grizzled fog]

Luffy has done that too, it’s regular coc

[tawdry bramble]

Regular CoC is knocking people out

[polar bison]

not when ur coc is as big as shanks’s

[tawdry bramble]

It’s also taming beasts

Just saying these are literally different examples of it.

[visual merlin]

We've seen regular CoC do damage to environment but yea I guess

[grizzled fog]

All those things literally just fall under regular coc

[visual merlin]

Omni what points are you getting at here? I thought this was about your (and others) opinion on the Zoro CoC situation

[tawdry bramble]

Well my ultimate point is Zoro definitely has CoC.

I think the story clearly presents him applying some to his attack based on Kaidou’s reaction after checking his wound and then addressing it.

[visual merlin]

But when we get down to different points that Im sure you agree with it becomes "well we don't know this is CoC" etc

like, do you think Ragnarok and Roger vs WB wasn't CoC?

[pure raven]

it wasn't actually referred to as aCoC though... i mean they are probably using advanced CoC, but it may not be the act of attaching it to there attacks, but making it conform to what they want.... like when shanks went on whitebeards ship i think he kind of just used it as a protective coat

[weak arrow]

When Luffy fights Chinjao, they're both basically "applying" Conqueror's to their attacks because their conquerors is clashing. Zoro's is the same vs Kaido.

[pure raven]

just being able to readily apply it may be aCoC

[visual merlin]

oh that's a good comparison Adam

[pure raven]

Advanced seems to mainly refer to coating

[tawdry bramble]

Agreed Adam. Same with Doflamingo and Katakuri

Is advanced CoC even an actual term?

[pure raven]

no

[polar bison]

it’s a literal conqueror’s clash yea. and if we’d seen haki effects a la all other conqueror’s clashes/attacks on Zoro’s attack, I’d absolutely believe that this is what happened with him, he exerted his conqueror’s at the same time as his attack. but we didn’t

[tawdry bramble]

So why are people arguing what’s advanced lol

[weak arrow]

ACoC is the fanmade term for conqueror's coating

cause it's simple and easy to understand

[pure raven]

that's kind of where i have an issue with everyone calling it that ... like when luffy and doffy's feet collide when luffy stops him from killing tlaw... there's obviously haki going everywhere

[visual merlin]

there's no official term, people just use advanced cuz that's what we use for observation and armament

[visual merlin]

well if you agree with that, that would mean zoro just used normal CoC

[weak arrow]

Yeah im not really trying to argue whether he did use it or not, but that im against Zoro using the coating/ACoC though

[visual merlin]

Where you're not actually coating anything in it

[tawdry bramble]

Only normal CoC exists.

[visual merlin]

There is a difference

[pure raven]

Advanced started when Ray referred to other advanced haki techniques

[tawdry bramble]

There is no advanced CoC.

[visual merlin]

if you want to use the word coating you can use it, but there is a different technique

an advanced one if you will

where you actually coat your attacks in it

[pure raven]

There's a difference between using the regular application of coc and the coating application

[gloomy canyon]

This no contact CoC coating that Luffy is using against Kaido rn is what people are referring to when they say Advanced CoC omni

[polar bison]

the word Luffy uses is infusion

[tawdry bramble]

We don’t know that all CoC coating adds black lighting.

We don’t know that all CoC coating adds “non touching” properties

[polar bison]

it’s conqueror’s infusion, not ACoC. ACoC is just easy to say and use and is an essential synonym among the fandom

[visual merlin]

Okay, but we do know there is a technique that is different and more advanced than what we usually see for CoC

[tawdry bramble]

CoC coating could be like armament coating where there is a potential level that’s invisible

[polar bison]

so there’s no real harm in using it

[pure raven]

It seems that CoC coating occurs when black streams of haki leak out from a fist or weapon

[visual merlin]

this is where you're coating yourself or your attacks in CoC

[pure raven]

i think if there is a difference it's being able to take your haki... compose it together and use it as you want... i mean if you have CoC going all over the place and it helps your attack i don't think that's an advanced form of using it ... it helps you by it's just a byproduct.. it may coat some .. but the control aspect is what aCoC is if it's anything

[visual merlin]

and that's what people are calling advanced CoC/Coc coating

[tawdry bramble]

Well we have seen Zoro coat his blade in black haki streams

[visual merlin]

if you think what zoro did is the same as luffy vs chinjao, it's not advanced CoC

[pure raven]

It wasn't streams

letting it flow to your will

but we know CoC doesn't need to have the special effect Luffy and Kaidou are showing rn to manifest, and with no hint at that, why would that be the most likely option?

for Zoro that is

[weak arrow]

You agree with my statement that it's like luffy vs chinjao and luffy vs doflamingo, but luffy's technique here is different and more advanced against Kaido. That makes it different. Zoro's attack is not like luffy's current technique, could be likened to luffy vs chinjao

[pure raven]

it can just be a normal clash

These are black streams

[tawdry bramble]

All I care about is Zoro has CoC and people who think otherwise are severely misreading the story.

[weak arrow]

Well, the thing everyone is arguing against is Zoro using conqueror's coating

[pure raven]

i think in one scenario you have CoC being a byproduct of an individual's will, and in the other scenario the CoC matches the will

[weak arrow]

not that he doesnt have it

except kihone

[pure raven]

^

I think Zoro has CoC. However I don't think he can coat it

[tawdry bramble]

I think there are various levels of CoC coating like there are different levels of CoA coating

[visual merlin]

When it comes to whether it's what we called advanced or not, you're free to use the terms for it you like, but we know there is a technique of CoC more advanced than what we've seen in like Luffy vs Chinjao

[weak arrow]

If you assume luffy is using CoC coating, that means he has never used it b4 in any arc

[pure raven]

i think the CoC allowed Zoro to bust through a little bit an damage Kaido, but he has no control over it

[weak arrow]

including luffy vs chinjao, luffy vs doflamingo, luffy vs katakuri

[pure raven]

So what is the first level

[visual merlin]

If Zoro did the same as luffy and chinjao did, that'd mean he just used normal CoC

[tawdry bramble]

First level. Invisible application.

[pure raven]

So how many levels did Luffy jump

luffy used cheat codes

The levels of armament are based on toughness. Not entirely new applications

[pure raven]

oh you're one of the "black CoA is a different level" types

[tawdry bramble]

Luffy clearly gained some insight on applying it further because of his training. You know. Because he references that training before achieving the further application.

[grizzled fog]

Invisible hardening and black hardening are exactly the same btw

[pure raven]

it's like luffy wasn't controlling it, but then realized he could do the same thing with his CoC that he was doing with his CoA

So he just skipped several "levels" after just learning it? He hasn't done that with any other form of haki

[tawdry bramble]

He skipped several “levels” of CoA too lol

[pure raven]

Also this ^

Luffy used the same technique in 2 different situations (removing cuffs - himself and Yamato): in the first, his hands were black, in the second, they weren't

[visual merlin]

okay wait, Omni, would you disagree that the technique that has recently been revealed, that luffy is now using, is something he wasn't able to use any of the arcs in the past?

[tawdry bramble]

Nice. Glad Oda is just inconsistent in his coloring.

[pure raven]

yeah he is

[pure raven]

He didn't

[visual merlin]

I mean yea

[grizzled fog]

How so? He learnt hardening, then later he learnt one advanced application in udon and then internal destruction after

Yea oda isn’t perfect lol, he just does not bother to color it always

[pure raven]

if it's obvious there's haki there, he doesn't really need to show it, unless it's for some cool effect

[tawdry bramble]

Well anyway Zoro has CoC that’s all I care about. Ya’ll have good knowledge thanks for sharing. Now I have the proper opinions.

[pure raven]

we knew he was using haki with Yamato, no need to make the hands black, but he could too it's wtv

Plus its much much harder to argue that there's this super low level of CoC coating that nobody noticed and doesn't exhibit the black streams that we saw and has never been mentioned

advanced CoA can penetrate the target..but I think there were moments, especially when Luffy broke collars and stuff in emergency situation, where it's like his act of using CoA kind of got mixed with his CoC

[polar bison]

this is interesting - why do u care that zoro has CoC. what does it add for u

[tawdry bramble]

Makes Zoro even cooler and have a higher end game level.

[silver forge]

Did Oda say that there would be more death in the New World?

[nimble hinge]

What's this about a vivre card ending the Oden haki in Enma theory?

I swear I need to find this VC shit

[weak arrow]

Though I’m not sure that statement really disproves what people have been saying about Zoro’s CoC moment

[gloomy canyon]

It pretty much disproves that Zoro didn't draw out Oden's haki that was somehow magically stored in Enma

[weak arrow]

It all depends on how it’s worded. Enma was introduced and its power was revealed as “bringing out the user’s haki” and that could have just been reiterated on the card

[pure raven]

What is this

Just a theory origin of onigashima from punk hazard

You think Onigashima was taken from Punk Hazard? Or is it going to be thrown there

Ah

Thought it was pretty cool idea and could be another GODA moment

!punkhazard

[lone hedge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/164971940648321024/795015111625801728/hdgmrphiqgm11.png%3Fwidth%3D1095%26height%3D227

[pure raven]

Wow thanks for ruining my hype :(((

[nimble hinge]

Does the translation say it's Zoros haki. Or does it explicitly mention its not odens?

[sturdy hound]

yea the card says just that, but i still dont understand the notion of "oden's haki stored in enma" tbh

[weak arrow]

Basically the process of making a black sword and how people theorize it’s done

I don’t think I’d be alone in saying making a black sword is probably from infusing your will into the sword. Does that will go away after you die? Definitely not if it’s completed that’s for sure, as we can see with shusui. A lot of people have theorized Zoro will make Enma a black blade soon based of hitetsu’s comment. If Zoro makes Enma a black blade before Wado, it’d be very strange if Oden’s “wil” wasn’t apart of it, because it would mean Zoro is starting from scratch while Zoro has been using wado for like a decade

[gloomy canyon]

I think there are ways to implement that without having Zoro actually use Oden's stored up haki to damage Kaido

[nimble hinge]

Using the stored haki defeats the purpose of turning it black, no?

If those are the assumptions being worked with, it wouldn't make sense that the haki that was stored by one individual is then being taken out by another

[pure raven]

What do you guys think gear 5 will look like? I think it's going to have something to do with CoC

[nimble hinge]

Would a sword go back to normal if you used to much of the stored haki in it?

[weak arrow]

I don’t really think it’s using the will as a resource, just giving off the aura

[nimble hinge]

Storing haki in a sword is fine with me. The holes start to appear when discussing using the stored haki

[weak arrow]

If this was the case at least

[weak arrow]

No gear 5, just a new gear 4 form. Maybe lion or tiger

[gloomy canyon]

Yeah exactly. I think Enma may have Oden's "will/spirit" to expedite the blackening process for Zoro, but I don't think Enma has stored Oden's actual haki for future use lol. I think that would just be silly

[gloomy canyon]

Yeah I'm cool with this

[weak arrow]

you aren’t Evan

[pure raven]

tbh I can't come up with a theory that makes black blades completely make sense

[weak arrow]

Cause giving off the aura could be what made Kaido say CoC

[pure raven]

because if you put haki in a sword, I feel like it'd leave the sword eventually

[nimble hinge]

But then when does it apply that aura? During strong attacks? All the time? Only Enma has this aura?

Shisui is a black blade too

[weak arrow]

Can argue only Enma has the power to do so because of its weird power in the first place

[pure raven]

you'd have to do something with your haki to fundamentally change the physics of the sword

[gloomy canyon]

well then ... maybe not that. But I'm fine with the line where Kaido says he can feel Oden's presence actually be true in a sense.

[nimble hinge]

Power to do what? Have a aura of CoC that has no practical use in this hypothetical?

[weak arrow]

Power to draw out haki

Which no other sword to our knowledge has

[nimble hinge]

But I thought we were discussing black blades and putting haki into them to turn them black

That's possible with any sword

[weak arrow]

Yes. And Oden would have been doing that with Enma. But only Enma may be able to give off an “aura” or somehow “access” previous wills in a sword due to its weird power

Since shusui does not have that power, zoro’s attacks with it would not give off a ryuma vibe

[nimble hinge]

Fair enough. Although I still don't see why Oda would do that if it didn't serve a purpose. If accessing the stored haki actually did something, then I can see it

But accessing stored haki already defeats the purpose so neither end fits

[weak arrow]

im just trying to say the logic behind it. I’m more on Zoro having than this line of logic, although lately I’ve just been leaning to the attack being so strong, he thought Zoro had CoC

[nimble hinge]

Yeah that was my first explanation or thought to myself to justify that scene if he doesn't have CoC

I'm leaning more towards CoC for now though. Only because Oda brought up CoC for Zoro twice, and in such quick succession that it feels planned and purposeful

And taking it away doesn't really fit that setup, in my head at least

[verbal cipher]

Why?

[nimble hinge]

I've said most of the whys above.

[pure raven]

Wouldn't a supreme grade blade that isn't a black blade have more potential than a supreme grade blade that is a black blade?

[nimble hinge]

Too many questions that don't have answers that add up if you believe Zoro is using haki that doesn't belong to him stored in a sword from over 2 decades ago

[verbal cipher]

So you just completely tossed out the unknown process of creating black blades with your haki?

[pure raven]

to create a black blade I think something physically has to change with the sword... i'm not sure someone can just exert their will on it

I think it's a process that takes a while

[nimble hinge]

Take a breath. And read back if you're going to question what I have or have not considered. This convo happens regularly it seems

[pure raven]

cause i mean you can temporarily turn any blade black by using haki, but it won't hold.... something has to change with the blade to transform it to make it hold... i think it's kind of like tempering the sword over time in a way.. you channel into it and it's like the sword slowly evolves

[nimble hinge]

The temporary version isn't actual black. Debate is still out on that one, but as far as I'm aware, no character has ever commented on the black hardening

It's a visual choice for readers and watchers, rather than a change in universe

So those aren't black blades, even temporarily.

The main argument against this obviously is to point out those times where CoA is used without the black colouring. But I think there's only 2 or 3 examples post time skip, that one could argue were just mistakes

[cedar sinew]

there's no reason to believe that it doesn't turn black

[pure raven]

it's not black, but I have a feeling it's related and is probably a part of the process of turning a blade black

[cedar sinew]

dont think anyone is doubting the fact that you need a ton of experience with a sword including using haki, imbuing your swordsman "will" into it etc etc to create a perma black blade hitta

[pure raven]

well my point though is that you can't just become a master swordsman and turn any sword black

[cedar sinew]

yeah dont think anyone was arguing against that

[nimble hinge]

I just explained the reason. Black blades are commented on. Not a single case of CoA turning things black has been commented on. Nor did that visual cue exist at first.

[pure raven]

but now it does

[cedar sinew]

Visual cues didn't exist at first because Oda didn't have a clear outline of haki yet, which is a prevailing thing throughout pre-ts. Why does it have to be commented on anyway lol.

[pure raven]

^

[nimble hinge]

Yeah, and it's fair to argue that it's just for readers in that case.

[cedar sinew]

it's black in the manga, so just assume it's black unless oda comes out and says "yeah guys it's actually not black in the OP universe"

[pure raven]

truthfully i think oda had an idea of what haki was at the beginning but didn't know how he was going to depict it

[nimble hinge]

The applications of haki in general haven't actually changed much at all since Alabasta. The advanced applications were added in, but general use case is the same as it always has been

[cedar sinew]

the fact that black swords exist in the first place I think completely supports that swords turn black with haki imbued. Makes logical sense that a sword with 20 years of haki imbued on and off will eventually become black

[nimble hinge]

So I'd say he did have a fairly clear outline. Considering it remained consistent with its first showing.

[cedar sinew]

oda had bits and pieces here and there, and finally connected them in mf/3d2y

[nimble hinge]

I don't see how Mantra differs from CoO basic application?

That's consistent to the same outline.

[pure raven]

the question is did oda know that things like black blades and mantra would be interconnected

[nimble hinge]

Considering haki, CoA and CoO were all brought up within like a 40 chapter span, I'd say he knew what he was doing for quite a while.

[cedar sinew]

didn't say it differs. But it's true that we only see parts of the full thing in various arcs. Armament with Zoro vs Mr 1 and mantra in Skypiea, but characters like Ace still not being shown to have CoA, and also mantra was outlined as more of "predicting the future" type of shit, but CoO is later explained as "sensing your surroundings and opponent's will".

[last halo]

I think he had the basics of it thought out

From the beginning

[nimble hinge]

Both Enel and Aisa use mantra to sense surroundings and the wills of others in the same fashion as CoO. Every basic application of CoO was shown in Skypiea

[last halo]

And just wrote the story to it.

[nimble hinge]

Advanced CoO was added later on, sure.

[cedar sinew]

yeah i remember Aisa specifically says she does and she's sort of an exception and the priests make it seem to be more of what I said

primal im not saying CoO came out of nowhere

[pure raven]

the theory about the ancient weapons being related to haki I think is true

[cedar sinew]

but it's clear that Oda didn't put it all together until later on

when rayleigh fully explains it.

[pure raven]

i think Uranus is CoO, Pluton is CoA, and Poseidon is CoC

[nimble hinge]

I don't think that is clear at all. What is clear is that everything Rayleigh says about CoO was displayed hundreds of chapters prior in the form of mantra

[cedar sinew]

yes, it's displyed once

out of the many arcs

[pure raven]

like I think the hat that Im was looking at was actually Uranus and was showing Im the greatest threat to him

[nimble hinge]

Sure. That doesn't mean the idea stopped existing just because it wasn't present. If anything it's evidence that the very same outlined remained consistent for over half a decade

[cosmic oyster]

they ought to redo the marine ford arc to show who used haki and how and when

[nimble hinge]

Before its final explanation.

[cedar sinew]

armament is also not shown in black, and zoro vs mr 1 gets retconned w/ hyogrorou

[cosmic oyster]

Because it doesnt add up with the what we are seeing

[cedar sinew]

if oda genuinely had a clear outline, he would've made Ace have CoA

[cedar sinew]

didnt say it stopped existing? All I'm saying is that he put it together later on

[nimble hinge]

Would he have? Ace never really has a use for it at any point.

[cedar sinew]

when he fought smoker

[cosmic oyster]

Or we can just assume everyone used COC Arm haki

[cedar sinew]

what is this theory even supposed to be

like the thematic significance of the ancient weapons?

[nimble hinge]

Fight? He toyed with him while his brother escaped. The only time Ace actually fought, was against BB

And that's the one scenario CoA doesn't matter

[cedar sinew]

Don't think he toyed with him. He said that their abilities are not compatible, as in no one can deal damage to eachother. And walked away

[nimble hinge]

Right. They didn't actually fight so Oda didn't need to give Ace anything. It served no purpose in the story. If he does give Ace haki there, then him and smoker never clash

And at that point, haki wasn't introduced in any fashion.

It isn't until the end of that arc, that we get what seems to be CoO and CoA. Followed immediately with our introduction to the term haki. Followed by mantra.

[cedar sinew]

I feel that Ace, if introduced later in the story, being a yonko commander, would have haki. And it's pretty easy for me to believe that the only reason he didn't have it was because Oda didn't have a clear outline of haki. But sure if you want to believe that Oda purposely didn't give him CoA despite all that because it wouldn't serve a purpose in the story then go ahead.

Followed immediately with our introduction to the term haki.

when?

does this not happen in amazon lily

[nimble hinge]

BB in jaya

[cedar sinew]

don't remember lol. What did bb say

[grizzled fog]

BB pretty much said he knew his haki was too strong for a 30m bounty

[nimble hinge]

Yeah, giving Ace an ability he's yet to introduce in any fashion would have been pointless. It serves no purpose in his personal story as none of his scenes require it. And giving it to him actively forces some scenes to no longer work

[grizzled fog]

In the scene where he slammed Sarquiss down

[grizzled fog]

I’ve definitely seen the page before, but I just checked manga see and it was different, must’ve been a fan scan

Id he interested to know what the raws said though

[cedar sinew]

supposed to be this right?

[grizzled fog]

Yea, guess it was a fan scan that said haki

[sand sail]

There's no instance where haki would've really helped Ace in a way where we can determine he for sure didn't have it tho

[grizzled fog]

Feel like a vivre card at least would’ve said it, or maybe the flashback with Yamato

[cedar sinew]

But yeah anyway, I'm confident that the reason Ace, or any of the strong new world pirates like Crocodile, Moria, or even CP9 not showing any indication of using haki is because it was not clearly outlined from the start. Oda being a great writer however, placed enough hints that you can retroactively justify it. Stuff like CoC I will admit Oda had a good idea of but haki in general is only explored in bits and pieces during pre ts, with it becoming largely prominent post ts, so feel that it's fair for me to argue that Oda didn't have the full outline of haki til later.

yeah his vivre card specifically says

"ace had coc"

not "ace had coc, coo, and coa" or whatever

and his fight with smoker is more than enough for me to believe that he couldn't use CoA

despite it not being a crucial moment

because it would've just made logical sense for ace to activate it and beat smoker.

[grizzled fog]

I’m fine with the notion that ace could be that incredibly strong without Haki tbh, I like him as an example of just how incredibly strong you can be without Haki, helps prove it’s not the end all be all of a requirement to be strong

Same with jack, who I also hope lacks haki

[sullen cipher]

I guess ace could use haki

[cedar sinew]

Personally dont mind that Ace didn't have it. It's impossible to have a full outline of everything in the beginning of the series, and Oda did a good enough job of making everything seem believable and interconnected for it to not feel like a sudden introduction by any means. And as for Jack I'm on the side that he has it, just because I dont believe it's possible to be that high up in the new world without something as basic.

[nimble hinge]

I don't see how you can claim mantra is bits and pieces of haki

[sullen cipher]

Both are same

[cedar sinew]

mantra itself isn't

but it's only shown in that one arc. And I mostly talked about CoA

[nimble hinge]

What does it being shown in one arc have to do with whether Oda had it outlined or not?

[cedar sinew]

why dont any of the other strong characters have it?

why is it framed as something exclusive to skypiea?

[junior field]

i think mantra is the voice or something ???

[nimble hinge]

Like who? An admiral? Moria?

[cedar sinew]

crocodile, cp9, moria

[sullen cipher]

Oda already planned for it since during luffy training he connected coo with those mantra and I guess he confirm it with Rayleigh

[nimble hinge]

I don't think CP9 is particularly noteworthy. At least not to the point of them needing haki

Moria is a broken individual with hardly any will.

Crocodile is the only that has merit, but is also dealt with before mantra is introduced

[cedar sinew]

Being the second most trusted secret intelligence group behind CP0 I don't see why they're not qualified to have haki

primal my point is why wasn't it introduced before

if oda did have a full outline

crocodile shoudlve had coa and coo

[nimble hinge]

It was introduced once he had an outline. Skypeia

And CP9 isn't notable at all. They got taken out by a rookie crew and are more for gathering info than for being fighters

[cedar sinew]

my argument was that he didn't have a full outline during pre ts, including before skypiea.

[nimble hinge]

They're an isolated group that has no use for haki in their roles

[cedar sinew]

rookie crew are you serious lmfao. Crocodile and the baroque works also got taken out by a "rookie crew"

how does that change anything

[nimble hinge]

Mantra being the exact same as CoO in the end goes against that believe. The outline was clearly the same, so you can't include Skypiea

[dusty galleon]

They are assassins, them losing an open fight to a relatively very strong group should not be all that surprising

[sullen cipher]

I guess crocodile and cp9 were suppose to be at weakest place like in cp series and warlord series

[nimble hinge]

They're whole purpose is to sit around and gather intelligence. They were in W7 for years

[cedar sinew]

do you agree that oda didn't have an outline before skypiea then? @nimble hinge

[nimble hinge]

The only reason they even ended up moving is because Robin showed up

[dusty galleon]

They are literally called an assassination unit

And the rest of CP9 was doing other missions

[junior field]

assassins working from the Celestials

[dusty galleon]

While these 4 were in W7

[nimble hinge]

I think based on the details we have, he created something very loose in Alabasta with Zoro, and then established it behind the scenes in Jaya, and formally introduced an application of it in Skypiea. All this within a period of 40 to 60 chapters, when realizing that he'd need something to combat other logias.

[cedar sinew]

then established it behind the scenes in Jaya
this didn't happen btw apparently

according to official scans

[junior field]

Cp9 was created to fight the revolutionary army

[dusty galleon]

Read somewhere the kanji used in that panel in Jaya was not the Kanji used later for Haki so yeah, probably

[nimble hinge]

Official scans aren't always correct sadly, as we regularly see. Even just last week, there was a mistake in the recent chapter.

[sullen cipher]

Yeah since crocodile was able to absorb water from living beings I guess oda was intended for adding such points to logia weakness

[cedar sinew]

well, I dont have any other source to go off of so

unless you can provide the raws

[nimble hinge]

I'm fairly confident the term haki is in the raw version.

[grizzled fog]

Can you prove the unofficial/raws you are using for this did say haki?

[nimble hinge]

On hand, no.

[dusty galleon]

Which panel is it?

[cedar sinew]

234

towards the end of the chapter

[grizzled fog]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/477571830941614080/838271634610847766/Screen_Shot_2021-05-01_at_9.32.02_PM.png

[dusty galleon]

Which word is supposed to be Haki in this?

[grizzled fog]

Not a singular word, the version I saw that said haki actually had a different meaning entirely

[cedar sinew]

this part

in the fanscans I saw at least

[dusty galleon]

Cool Lemme dog it up

[nimble hinge]

The anime also says haki I believe