hmmmm??? 
#dev-general
cinder flare
prisma wave
Big mistake
cinder flare
unless you abandon the JVM, Kotlin's the best you're gonna get
steel heart
scala is arguably nice as well
cinder flare
Ah yes, a Rust implementation of the Minecraft server haha
prisma wave
GoLangMC
prisma wave
Ah yes, a Rust implementation of the Minecraft server haha
Feather
cinder flare
Scala do be functional tho
steel heart
scala is multi paradigm :]
cinder flare
oh wait so that's why you hated kotlin
cinder flare
another jvm language also caught your eye
prisma wave
i am not a huge fan of scala personally
cinder flare
Go is nice
I'm gonna be honest, I don't know too much about it, I just read a thing that Discord swapped away from it for performance reasons
prisma wave
Yeah that's true
Because of GC spikes iirc
In most scenarios Go is a very good choice though
jovial warren
it has its own API separate from Bukkit, which currently only has my testing plugin, but I will write my own implementations for plugins that are abstract enough where I don’t have to rewrite the whole lot
cinder flare
ah so we go to Rust where there is no GC >:)
steel heart
they use elixir rn?
jovial warren
also, it uses coroutines, so it has decent multi threading
it’s not just any old Minecraft server lol
cinder flare
bro if you can move chunk generation to its own thread and make it like 60% less hard on the cpu, I think you've already won
prisma wave
they use elixir rn?
Elixir was always used since day 1
cinder flare
only downside being no plugins
steel heart
what did they substitute to?
cinder flare
but, could you make an api basically that translates Bukkit api calls into the new API?
jovial warren
chunk loading is already sent async, it doesn’t do generation yet but that’ll all be done on separate coroutines if I can get that to work lol
cinder flare
cause then plugins would be compatible, eh?
jovial warren
but, could you make an api basically that translates Bukkit api calls into the n...
with a bit of ASM, maybe
prisma wave
Afaik elixir has always been used, they were using Go for a small part of the stack but then changed that to rust
steel heart
ah
cinder flare
with a bit of ASM, maybe
If you can get every plugin working, that'll increase adoption by a factor of millions
Cause what good is a server with no plugins?
jovial warren
the only issue with Bukkit is that it’s designed to work on a heavily single threaded vanilla server
Krypton isn’t a heavily single threaded vanilla server
cinder flare
So how come nobody makes a Bukkit with a lot more threading?
steel heart
add the api and implement it but deprecate everything 🤡
cinder flare
and plugin compatability?
jovial warren
So how come nobody makes a Bukkit with a lot more threading?
they have lol
Paper forks
cinder flare
Oh
prisma wave
because multithreading is a lot more difficult than people expect
cinder flare
Then I don't see the need for Krypton besides Kotlin nice language
jovial warren
because multithreading is a lot more difficult than people expect
and this yeah
steel heart
because multithreading is a lot more difficult than people expect
just add synchronized everywhere tbh lol 
jovial warren
Then I don't see the need for Krypton besides `Kotlin nice language`
no Paper fork fixes the root problem though: the vanilla server
cinder flare
no Paper fork fixes the root problem though: the vanilla server
well what if you just implemented the Bukkit api exactly
Then the only difference would be the backend
lunar cypress
I hope not
lol n... lol generics
jovial warren
its design makes it very inefficient at doing stuff, and it’s designed around the principle of being single threaded, which no Paper fork can really fix
steel heart
I kind of like it being single threaded
cinder flare
I am impressed that nobody has come up with a better server implementation in a different language
In all like 12 years of Minecraft's existence
lunar cypress
There are several server implementations
jovial warren
well what if you just implemented the Bukkit api exactly
as I already said, the fundamental issue with the Bukkit API is that 1. it’s shit and 2. it’s designed to be implemented in a heavily single threaded vanilla server, so it has a lot of things that make it bad because they are what work in that environment
lunar cypress
better not so much because the protocol is extremely convoluted and changes like every version
cinder flare
hmm okay
jovial warren
Krypton isn’t designed to be a Paper replacement anyway, it’s a fun project of mine, I’m just saying why it has a purpose
cinder flare
as I already said, the fundamental issue with the Bukkit API is that 1. it’s shi...
So what you're saying is, we're stuck like this forever because there will never be a way to get plugins on here without completely rewriting them and reteaching a million devs
lunar cypress
Writing a server that provides an experience that's as good as the mojang server is a full time job for multiple people I'd say
jovial warren
that’s where ASM could save us
lunar cypress
forget it lol
jovial warren
I could remap the calls with bytecode manipulation somehow
lunar cypress
you'll never translate the entire api
jovial warren
it would be a pain, but I could probably pull it off
jovial warren
also, what do you think Sponge did
cinder flare
it would be a pain, but I could probably pull it off
If you pull it off, that'll change the entire minecraft server ecosystem
steel heart
BBG I give you E for effort 🙂
cinder flare
also, what do you think Sponge did
not have plugin compatability and have very few users
jovial warren
they just scrapped Bukkit and loads of people use that
jovial warren
Sponge 8 is made for 1.16
jovial warren
and it’s near done
jovial warren
if I can manage to remap Bukkit calls to my API at runtime and somehow make it actually performant, that would be insane
steel heart
the api is quite big btw
jovial warren
I know
cinder flare
is sponge more performant than any paper clone?
jovial warren
not sure
cinder flare
hmmm
steel heart
well maybe it is havent done some legit tests
cinder flare
I don't see why, if you're gonna make a whole new api, you don't make it like really performant
Like I'm talking Bedrock edition fast
steel heart
hmm well I guess people reinvent a new api to make the design somewhat more pleasing
cinder flare
yeah but the biggest hurdle in making an api is increasing usage
steel heart
true
cinder flare
and the biggest problem with minecraft servers is how non-performant they are
so imagine what you could do if you made an excellent speedy server and then got a bunch of devs to work on it
jovial warren
yeah but the biggest hurdle in making an api is increasing usage
the biggest problem with humans is stubbornness
reluctance to change
cinder flare
i mean, it do be a lot of work to learn a new api
jovial warren
it’s pretty similar to Bukkit in its design
sometimes, I refer to it as Bukkit++ or Bukkit without the BS
steel heart
it sounds good
cinder flare
sometimes, I refer to it as Bukkit++ or Bukkit without the BS
more like Bukkit without the plugin ecosystem
steel heart
you might be the reason why I would swap to kotlin
cinder flare
you might be the reason why I would swap to kotlin
wtf
jovial warren
it doesn’t have the best Java compatibility though
steel heart
yeah lol I mean better api then no problemas
jovial warren
more like Bukkit without the plugin ecosystem
eh, that’s just one of the sacrifices I’ve chosen to be able to make an API that I hope developers will actually enjoy using
jovial warren
and there will be no more need for NMS for things either, and if you need to send packets yourself, the server is really easy and intuitive to use, and will be released publicly in a repo
cinder flare
but how do you support multiple versions without nms
oak coyote
I believe he will handle the nms for them maybe
cinder flare
Oh that'd be kinda slick
oak coyote
That’s how I would implement that
cinder flare
you don't plan on changing your papi?
lunar cypress
the server isn't nms based, that's the point sort of
jovial warren
why? old versions are a pain and shouldn’t be used anymore
prisma wave
lol n... lol generics
just copy and paste bro
cinder flare
1.8 pvp is, in my opinion and many others', much better
jovial warren
also, it would mean hours upon hours of work to make a backend for each different protocol version
cinder flare
hence why servers support 1.8 all the way through 1.16
oak coyote
You can’t really say 1.16 is good for large servers
Unless you like trying to get to negative TPS
jovial warren
nah the new combat system is objectively superior
cinder flare
If Mojang just made a stupid gamerule to toggle between old and new combat, we wouldn't be here
prisma wave
tfw oldcombatmechanics
cinder flare
nah the new combat system is objectively superior
I'm gonna pull a Conclure and say no to that boss
jovial warren
no more having to learn to click at super human clicking speeds just to have a chance in a fight
oak coyote
There is plugins and even mods now that convert
jovial warren
it’s more balanced for both new and old players
cinder flare
I think it has much better rhythm than the new pvp
oak coyote
So it’s up to the server to decide
cinder flare
And I don't be trustin those plugins with my pvp experience
If I'm doing pvp, I'm opening up Badlion Client on 1.8
and until Mojang supports it, that's how it's gonna be for a lot of people lol
jovial warren
the only reason 1.8 is still supported is because people still think that it’s somehow a good version
oak coyote
If you are going for 1.8 style go 1.7 due to lack of hit delay
cinder flare
the only reason 1.8 is still supported is because people still think that it’s s...
That is what I do be saying and yeah it is a good version for combat
quiet depot
tfw oldcombatmechanics
this doesn't solve anything
oak coyote
@jovial warren so you are saying large server could move to 1.16 right?
I think not.. have you seen how shitly optimised it is nowadays
prisma wave
this doesn't solve anything
probably not, but I really don't care about old pvp "appreciators"
steel heart
If Mojang just made a stupid gamerule to toggle between old and new combat, we w...
why is this so true
jovial warren
Hypixel runs some 1.14 servers, and the only reason their hubs are still 1.8 is compatibility
prisma wave
hypixel runs 1.7.10 iirc
oak coyote
You realise they are using a modified 1.7 for most major gamemodes right
steel heart
wat
quiet depot
yeah hypixel runs 1.7 lol
steel heart
wait
jovial warren
If Mojang just made a stupid gamerule to toggle between old and new combat, we w...
I could make that dream come true
steel heart
fr
quiet depot
they don't actually allow 1.7 to join, but they run 1.7
cinder flare
I could make that dream come true
I'd be down with 1.16 then boss
prisma wave
but their server is so customised it really can't be compared to any spigot based server
steel heart
guess insanely modified
cinder flare
Man I wish I had the monetary power to just write my own server and make all my own plugins for it
That's the Hypixel dream
oak coyote
You put a 3k cannon on 1.16 and you will watch a slideshow plus it won’t even work
quiet depot
You can’t compare spigot build to those
what
why not?
they're literally just spigot with a few patches
how are they not comparable to spigot
jovial warren
oh, and I plan to write a LuckPerms implementation for Krypton as well
cinder flare
Can we talk about the gamerule thing
jovial warren
and maybe WorldEdit and WorldGuard
oak coyote
But those “few” patches make a massive difference
cinder flare
Cause if you got Mojang to do that, 1.17 adoption would go up 50000%
jovial warren
and a few other plugins where all I have to do is just write an implementation
cinder flare
But those “few” patches make a massive difference
Im moderately confused, did Minecraft servers get slower as the versions go up?
oak coyote
What size servers are you talking about?
cinder flare
Wouldn't they make it faster?
quiet depot
starmism more features = more processing = slower
jovial warren
Cause if you got Mojang to do that, 1.17 adoption would go up 50000%
yeah I’ll see what I can do about old combat mechanics
oak coyote
There is a reason 2B2T is stuck in 1.12
quiet depot
the idea is that the servers shouldn't really increase in speed, or slow down, as technology also progresses
cinder flare
hmmm I guess, but couldn't they also write improvements to make it like way better
prisma wave
They could've
quiet depot
however in reality they did get slower because nms is garbage code
prisma wave
But they're lazy
cinder flare
Oh that's very sad
jovial warren
there are definitely ways they could make it better, but they just won’t
cinder flare
I really don't understand how a multi-billion dollar company doesn't care about its biggest money maker: servers and plugins
Minecraft would've died ages ago if mods/servers/plugins didn't exist
oak coyote
You think they make money from that?
jovial warren
once Krypton actually works properly though, I will spend hours making micro optimisations and other optimisations to make it run as efficiently as possible
cinder flare
They get players from that
prisma wave
Bedrock is probably the biggest money maker by now
oak coyote
They tried to ban it at one point
cinder flare
Well yeah I was there for the EULA lol
prisma wave
Once people buy 1 account for java, they won't pay anymore
oak coyote
They are just walking idiots
prisma wave
Bedrock has the stupid microtransations
cinder flare
Yeah but it's so damn performant
quiet depot
what?
jovial warren
minecoins 😬
quiet depot
bedrock isn't performant?
quiet depot
pretty sure they both run like shit
oak coyote
It’s coded in C so it’s naturally a faster language
prisma wave
C++
cinder flare
it's rewritten in C++ so it's obviously going to be faster lol
jovial warren
it’s better than Java, doesn’t make it good though
oak coyote
Sorry yeah ++
quiet depot
literally doesn't mean anything
a shit developer will write shit programs regardless of what language they use
regal gale
There are some optimizations that is pretty cool
prisma wave
Should've used rust in my personal opinion (a pretty obscure language that guarantees memory safety)
regal gale
For example: tnt handling
quiet depot
nah bardy it's c++
prisma wave
I could’ve sworn it was written in Microsoft®️ Java™️ a.k.a C#
I don't think so
cinder flare
I could’ve sworn it was written in Microsoft®️ Java™️ a.k.a C#
God no, why would they swap languages horizontally basically
jovial warren
true
quiet depot
ok I might be very wrong about the performance of bedrock actually, because now that I think about it, hive shut down for the very reason that bedrock is more performant than java
prisma wave
on the server side it's definitely better
quiet depot
yeah I really wouldn't keep your hopes up on that
jovial warren
Bedrock is astronomically more performant on PC because it’s basically like running a mobile game on a PC
cinder flare
Oh yeah they made chunk generation like, not terrible in bedrock
Though it do be closed source and has microtransactions, so say bye bye to mods and plugins
oak coyote
Wdym I like crash chunks
oak coyote
Yeah
jovial warren
^
cinder flare
Java turns into bytecode that is way easier to reverse than machine code
prisma wave
True
jovial warren
Nukkit exists
prisma wave
But that doesn't mean it's impossible to make mods and plugins by any means
cinder flare
Nukkit exists
dont know what that is but I love the name
prisma wave
It's just harder to reverse engineer
jovial warren
Nukkit is basically Bukkit but Bedrock
oak coyote
Mojang went we don’t want people fucking with this and we went IDC
cinder flare
bro I don't get why they wouldn't make it easier to make mods and shit
oak coyote
But at the time they were called mojang
prisma wave
bro I don't get why they wouldn't make it easier to make mods and shit
Microsofot bad
cinder flare
It's what keeps the game alive for pete sake
jovial warren
is it actually terrible pig?
prisma wave
I think they're more focused on their 10 year old market
cinder flare
I know and I hate it
prisma wave
since they will just suck up $3.99 skin packs
jovial warren
think about it
quiet depot
bardy, yes
regal gale
It's even sadder that at the time, they banned Notch
jovial warren
if you make modding available for free, no one will buy anything from your store
oak coyote
Yeah there is a reason paper exists after bukkit to clean up some of mess
jovial warren
Bukkit is a terrible API
prisma wave
i want me a ***spigot but bedrock***
You may want to rethink that name
cinder flare
hahahaha
jovial warren
and the reason is that it was designed to work, not to work well
steel heart
Bukkit is a terrible API
not that terrible but some parts are wack
quiet depot
no... You don't want "naper" or "nigot", neither of these fix the crux of the matter, nms
oak coyote
if you make modding available for free, no one will buy anything from your store
Not necessarily some games do very well with good ties to modding and vanilla
quiet depot
nukkit has a huge advantage over bukkit in that it doesn't rely on an upstream implementation of the server, it is completely independent, it fully implements the protocol on its own
cinder flare
Okay how about the n version of Bardy's server
jovial warren
it was the first of its kind, the only thing the Bukkit had to go off of was obfuscated vanilla code
cinder flare
Maybe nonge?
quiet depot
sponge still uses nms
cinder flare
shit uhhhh
jovial warren
sounds too close to nonce Starmism
cinder flare
what's wrong with nonce?
quiet depot
there isn't a single complete implementation of the java server that doesn't use nms
jovial warren
only British people would understand haha
prisma wave
feather is the future of server implementations
jovial warren
nonce is British slang for pedophile
quiet depot
rust right bm?
prisma wave
Yea
cinder flare
it's a cryptographic thing tho
prisma wave
Probably
oak coyote
nonce is British slang for pedophile
Do people not know that, is that only a British thing?
quiet depot
nonce is known in australia jerry
cinder flare
or Java or somethin
quiet depot
at least where I live
jovial warren
Do people not know that, is that only a British thing?
yep
quiet depot
probably because so many people are british
cinder flare
Well Australia WAS a British colony
oak coyote
Yeah I thought it existed elsewhere
quiet depot
starmism lua is designed for plugins
prisma wave
Oh no plugins are still rust apparently
jovial warren
Well Australia ***WAS*** a British colony
still is
quiet depot
its primary purpose is to be used as an embedded language
prisma wave
Compiled to WASM
quiet depot
oh
cinder flare
well yeah but it seems less nice than like Kotlin or something
oak coyote
Well it was where Britain sent its criminals
cinder flare
is it as performant?
prisma wave
very performant for a dynamic scripting language
cinder flare
good for beginners
beginners are overrated
oak coyote
lua seems very simple
jovial warren
Lua is a really nice scripting language
cinder flare
yeah don't you want a language with all the niceties of modern day like static type checking, null safety, and the like?
quiet depot
well brister it's not like feather would be using the lua executable that you install to run lua scripts
or would they?
prisma wave
yeah lol
quiet depot
idk
quiet depot
I've only seen lua being used in java projects
but when they do use it, they use an interpreter made in java
cinder flare
Lua is used in Garry's Mod too
jovial warren
yeah don't you want a language with all the niceties of modern day like static t...
yeah I guess
and Roblox
oak coyote
It’s used in a few games
prisma wave
Afaik lua is used a lot in native things since it's a lot easier to actually make it work
cinder flare
Huh, I guess it's basically one step above like YAML haha
Easy to turn into your language of choice
jovial warren
YAML is a text storage format
quiet depot
one is declarative one is imperative
cinder flare
yaml is not
hence the step above
quiet depot
they're not really comparable
jovial warren
Lua is a scripting language
oak coyote
They are both sexy
cinder flare
it's something every language can use in its own way
prisma wave
From what I gather doing something like "dynamic classloading" in a native language is a lot harder than in java, which is why things like lua are used
oak coyote
So it’s fine
jovial warren
you can’t write code in YAML
cinder flare
and more of a way to basically easily define plugins and stuff that are small
prisma wave
you can’t write code in YAML
Devops would like a word
jovial warren
it is one of the worst excuses to not learn to program available to server owners
prisma wave
o:yaml
lunar cypress
yeah don't you want a language with all the niceties of modern day like static type checking, null safety, and the like?
Why use Lua and not like C++
oh no no
oak coyote
“Can you help me my skript isn’t working!!” And they get absolutely shafted here and it’s great
prisma wave
Object oriented yaml
quiet depot
effective yaml: 3rd edition
oak coyote
I do love object oriented
cinder flare
> yeah don't you want a language with all the niceties of modern day like static...
okay but C++ is performant
quiet depot
again, depends on the developer
oak coyote
It’s faster at maths
quiet depot
coding in c++ doesn't magically make your code go vrrr
cinder flare
for a scripting language you only barely give to people, ease of use is priority
oak coyote
That is the only statement you can make
quiet depot
you have to know what you're doing to somewhat of a degree for it to be beneficial
cinder flare
coding in c++ doesn't magically make your code go vrrr
yeah but the cash cow at microsoft has enough money to pay developers to make a good game to make them even more money
this isn't some random guy coding up an entire game in a day or two
quiet depot
I thought we were talking about plugin developers
oak coyote
It’s quite a lot faster at maths if I remember correctly but still
lunar cypress
I just found it funny because c++ is everything but safe
oak coyote
I thought we were talking about plugin developers
Yeah we are all idiots at heart
cinder flare
I thought we were talking about plugin developers
huh? no we're talking about the Bedrock edition implementation
and how much more performant it is than Java
prisma wave
Player:
meta:
type: class
extends: [Entity]
body:
kill:
type: method
signature: () -> ()
body:
- setHealth 0
and why nobody has written a server in C++ for some reason that could be like 10x faster if they knew what they were doing
prisma wave
Object oriented yaml
cinder flare
```yaml
Player:
meta:
type: class
extends: [Entity]
body...
my eyes burn at the sight of that
oak coyote
@cinder flare 🤦♂️ That has happened
quiet depot
erm
cinder flare
then why haven't I heard of it
oak coyote
It’s called ahh fuck that sit
lunar cypress
^
cinder flare
Supports up to 1.12 lol
oak coyote
Cuberite
quiet depot
yeah
as I said earlier
not a single standalone implementation of java edition exists
quiet depot
it is still maintained
cinder flare
it should
quiet depot
it doesn't exist because that's a monumental effort
especially with things like world gen
oak coyote
It’s mostly left alone cause it’s not got great support
lunar cypress
Why it no be updated
because this is not a trivial task
cinder flare
I mean, I'm sure Spigot/Bukkit was a monumental effort, but it was done
lunar cypress
Spigot/Bukkit is based on the vanilla server by mojang, writing everything from scratch is a lot more effort
oak coyote
But they had the support to do it
prisma wave
99% of non-nms based server impls get abandoned after the slightest difficulty
quiet depot
but no where near as much effort as creating a fully featured standalone impl
oak coyote
They had reason
quiet depot
oh yeah that too, you've got to remember mojang devs actually worked on bukkit
cinder flare
Oh we definitely have reason to make a more performant version of the minecraft server
They didn't at the time though, right?
I thought the bois got hired after the fact
lunar cypress
I'm not talking about the people
I'm talking about the fact that it literally just extends the vanilla server
"just", but still
oak coyote
I have to say this chat is always popping off
cinder flare
I'm just saying, somebody's gotta get a whole new gang together and make the next major stride in Minecraft Servers
oak coyote
Let it die
prisma wave
i strongly agree
oak coyote
That’s my idea
steel heart
if that was so easy
cinder flare
if that was so easy
bro I get that
quiet depot
the paper team is working closely with mojang these days to fix the performance issues of nms
cinder flare
It seems like nms is beyond saving from what I've been hearing recently
oak coyote
Paper is good
quiet depot
nothing is ever beyond saving
cinder flare
And it seems like Java has unbeatable flaws
old wyvern
I'm just saying, somebody's gotta get a whole new gang together and make the nex...
In essense, you need haskell!
prisma wave
i hear the upcoming language "elara" is going to revolutionise the server industry
old wyvern
^
quiet depot
elara hasn't had a commit in like 2 months
prisma wave
that is true
cinder flare
it's kinda cute tho
prisma wave
But not important
cinder flare
look at that logo!
lunar cypress
My life has become so much easier since I've modeled my protocol communication as category functors
prisma wave
🤣
prisma wave
look at that logo!
It's good right?
oak coyote
It’s sexy ngl
cinder flare
Bro it really is
cinder flare
They had designers going ham on this thing
quiet depot
yeah well I can't hate
cinder flare
They had designers going ham on this thing
pun intended for piggy
quiet depot
papi 3 hasn't had a commit in who knows how long
prisma wave
🥲
oak coyote
It’s works so why change it 👌🏻 Piggy
steel heart
does papi3 even need contributors or you guys just sketching some masterplan?
cinder flare
I don't know how much of a fan I am of the => syntax
cinder flare
does papi3 even need contributors or you guys just sketching some masterplan?
I mean I don't really know what there is to improve upon in papi
It's already pretty solid, only thing needed is to support more plugins
old wyvern
papi3 os
prisma wave
I don't know how much of a fan I am of the `=>` syntax
Ironic considering we might be removing that 🥲
cinder flare
yooooo
cinder flare
Ironic considering we might be removing that 🥲
wait a fucking second "we"
prisma wave
Yugi et moi
steel heart
I mean I don't really know what there is to improve upon in papi
yeah true I think its mostly recoded under the hood
old wyvern
lol
cinder flare
Ironic considering we might be removing that 🥲
bro are you an elara dev or somethin
cinder flare
wtf that's so cool
oak coyote
Nah he’s just vibing
oak coyote
Ignore him
cinder flare
it reminds me a lot of kotlin
prisma wave
yeah im just a random guy that's very interested in this obscure language nobody's ever heard of
oak coyote
That’s what I’ve always though prove me wrong 😂
old wyvern
a lot
cinder flare
yeah I was gonna ask, what's the performance like bby
old wyvern
Its pretty much going a to lose a lot of the "kotlin"-ness
oak coyote
yeah I was gonna ask, what's the performance like bby
Like a race car with no wheels
old wyvern
ALtho itmight retain a thing or 2 that kotlin does best
cinder flare
Like a race car with no wheels
oh no
prisma wave
what does kotlin do best?
old wyvern
DSLs
cinder flare
be cute
prisma wave
ahh true
oak coyote
higher state functions
cinder flare
are you gonna slap in the ruby way of 5.times
oak coyote
Or whatever it’s called
cinder flare
cause I'd kinda love taht
prisma wave
are you gonna slap in the ruby way of `5.times`
wot
old wyvern
times 5
prisma wave
currying
quiet depot
It’s works so why change it 👌🏻 Piggy
innovation is impossible with this mindset
prisma wave
(*) 5 🙂
quiet depot
yugi do you have access to papi 3?
old wyvern
No piggy
oak coyote
Yeah trust me I don’t believe that
prisma wave
Or whatever it’s called
Higher order functions is probably what you mean
quiet depot
do u want access?
lunar cypress
Will it be able to compile 50 million lines of code in just one second though
prisma wave
probably not
cinder flare
and it's basically a for loop that runs 5 times
prisma wave
Hmm
oak coyote
Higher blah blah is all I remember but yes @prisma wave
old wyvern
Wait really?
quiet depot
yeah
oak coyote
I know what it does
old wyvern
Yea sure, id love to contribute
cinder flare
bro wtf
quiet depot
starmism papi 3 supports a bunch of different platforms
oak coyote
That’s all I care about
quiet depot
not just bukkit
cinder flare
my guy gets access to papi 3 and I have to sit here and be sad
prisma wave
In ruby, you can do something like this
```ruby
5.times {
puts("potato")
...
there will probably be something vaguely similar to that, the current version has repeat(n) iirc
But you know
Purity
old wyvern
LMAO, my teacher just divided us into rooms of 10 to make us "conversate" for the soft skills class, the whole room is as silent as a dead horse
old wyvern
ah I see
quiet depot
but
you can still look around the code
if you see anything ugly you can fix it
or tell me
and i'll fix it eventually
old wyvern
Alrighty
quiet depot
what's ur github?
cinder flare
I remember the days when I was in the HelpChat org :/
old wyvern
Vshnv
oak coyote
And now your irrelevant
quiet depot
cinder flare
ikr
it happened so fast
actually over like 2 years or something let me see when did I last message glare
old wyvern
ayy
prisma wave
but can literals have functions? that's what I *really* want
At the moment yes
In the future probably not
oak coyote
Yeah devs can never stay away
They always come back to cause chaos then back into hiding
cinder flare
well you see, I pulled an epic gamer move and actually went to college and learned a little Java
now I'm still a novice, but I have a very big hunger for being good at programming, considering I'd like to make that my job :)
oak coyote
Yeah it’s interesting I’m here but don’t want to do it as a job
cinder flare
So just talking to the bois about like elara and stuff, that's pretty enjoyable
oak coyote
Yet currently own a website about it
cinder flare
haha
prisma wave
elara good
oak coyote
coming to you some day before the end of time maybe...
prisma wave
maybe
oak coyote
It has a slower development cycle than star citizen
And that took years longer than expected
prisma wave
tbf there's only 2 people working on it
steel heart
your cap is cap
jovial warren
PAPI for Krypton 😎
cinder flare
on its way?
jovial warren
well you see, I pulled an epic gamer move and actually went to college and learn...
“epic gamer”
now that’s cap
jovial warren
on its way?
when PAPI 3 is done
cinder flare
bro you better believe I'm sitting in my dorm room, of which I share my apartment with 8 other individuals, coding a jail plugin with three monitors :)
While paying thousands in tuition to learn basic Java 🙃
jovial warren
as I said, I will go around finding plugins that are abstract enough that writing an implementation for Krypton is trivial and write an implementation myself
quiet depot
why are you paying thousands to learn java
jovial warren
one of those plugins, in fact, the first of those plugins will be LuckPerms
also, you’re paying thousands for something that a £15 course could teach you way faster and way better?
quiet depot
is the course specifically java, or is it something else that just uses java?
jovial warren
it’s got over 80 hours of pure Java
cinder flare
okay well boss, you see you gotta take a few shitty courses before they let you into the good ones because most plebeians taking this course with me have never touched a computer in their life, so you gotta filter them through.
I'm actually doing them one better, by taking two of the three courses you're supposed to take one after the other to get your basics out of the way concurrently!
quiet depot
u american?
cinder flare
So while one day I'm learning about enums, the next I'm doing recursive maze solving and sorting algorithms :)
Yes sir!
jovial warren
oh btw, if I want to get PAPI 3 working on Krypton, have I also gotta make RPF work on Krypton?
jovial warren
oh right
cinder flare
That 4 year degree is gonna get me right in the door with jobs
jovial warren
what does it use? Guice?
jovial warren
yeah
cinder flare
and, I have a friend or two who might be getting summer internships/jobs and will recommend me, so I could get a job out of it!
So I'd say money well spent
jovial warren
I mean, ofc it uses Guice, there’s no such thing as a piggy project that doesn’t use Guice
quiet depot
star is cs actually for you?
is java your first language?
actually jumped the gun a bit there
what's your degree?
jovial warren
wait you guys do degrees at college?
quiet depot
bardy they call unis college over there
quiet depot
college kinda wack
don't you have to do a bunch of other courses along with your degree?
like general ed subjects or something
I think that's what they're called
jovial warren
over here, you pick what you do and you only do what you pick lol
quiet depot
yeah same here
jovial warren
I’ll probably do computer science and go and teach it at secondary school tbh
cinder flare
yes my degree is Computer Science, yes I have been interested in it for my whole life, yes you have to take some general education classes to round you out as a human being
Java was my first language like 5 years ago lol
cinder flare
star is cs actually for you?
that's kinda mean lol
jovial warren
I’m like the only person here who doesn’t want to program for a living lol
cinder flare
What do you plan on doing?
jovial warren
I want to teach for a living and program as a hobby
cinder flare
I find it very enjoyable and it really makes you think logically, so I love doing it. I just need more experience under my belt haha
jovial warren
I already said, I wanna teach secondary school (11-18)
cinder flare
Oh sorry I didn't see that, that's really cool though
jovial warren
thanks
it seems that’s one of the two things people say when I say I want to teach, the other being why lol
cinder flare
I mean, what do you say to anyone who says they want to do anything?
"I wanna be a construction man" I mean, okay bro, good for you
quiet depot
that's kinda mean lol
I'm not saying that from judging you as a person, merely statistics
like lots of people go into cs because they like playing csgo, or because they think it earns big bucks
but it's not for them
quiet depot
lol
jovial warren
lol
cinder flare
I think the fact that I'm in this discord, actively trying to make plugins and learn, is a good sign lol
And yes, I definitely do know people who are only in it for the money, in fact CS is the most transferred-out-of major at my school
jovial warren
I’m in secondary school and I know more than my teacher who has a degree
jovial warren
11-16 years old
cinder flare
Ah yeah basically
cinder flare
Yeah dude same, I was helping my teacher install Node.js on her computer while the rest of the class was writing out Python code by hand 😬
jovial warren
half of my CS class don’t even know how to use a computer properly
cinder flare
bro you're in high school and they don't. I'm in university and they still don't
jovial warren
lol
cinder flare
Those are the people that aren't for CS, not me @quiet depot lol
jovial warren
I mean, tbf, I do spend literally all of my free time programming and doing Linux system administration, so...
cinder flare
Dude same!
My friends were like "hey we want a minecraft server" I was like "aight, bet, get your free GCP subscription and vroom up a Debian vm rn"
jovial warren
like if you look at Krypton’s commit history, I’ve made 37 commits to master since the 12th Feb
I haven’t stopped lol
cinder flare
commits go brrrr
jovial warren
and if you look at my personal commit history, that’s kinda full now too
cinder flare
All full of green? It's not even St. Patricks' day anymore!
jovial warren
it’s literally the first time I’ve made something that’s actually useful and that people like
quiet depot
when I was working on docdex full time I did 23 commits on a single day once
commit nums don't mean too much
jovial warren
Krypton currently has 7 stars, I’ve never got that many on any project before
cinder flare
Yeah it all depends on how you split them up too
If you really wanna stretch those numbers, you can do a commit per line basically lol
jovial warren
yeah my commits aren’t very split up because of the nature of the project
and my refusal to commit broken code
because it’s a Minecraft server impl, when you make one thing, you gotta make everything else to go with it
cinder flare
bro ty, ty, SVtFoE is one of my favorite shows!
I'm also really enjoying the new She-Ra
jovial warren
e.g. reading Anvil comes with reading level.dat files, reading region files, transforming those into objects, sending packets, etc.
cinder flare
The art style is 👌
quiet depot
5 classes per what?
old wyvern
I c ode during classes
cinder flare
hardest being calculus, two are programming which are easy and have like one assignment every other day
old wyvern
🥲
jovial warren
I have a lot to do, but I don’t care about school like you do pig
jovial warren
I prioritise the thing I enjoy over the thing that’s important
old wyvern
I realy do need to start studying this semesters subject now tbh
cinder flare
and the last one is web dev, which only has assignments due every Friday which are pretty easy
old wyvern
exams in 3 weeks
jovial warren
because I don’t give a flying fuck about school
cinder flare
and the online class is basically busy work that I just don't do most of the time lol
old wyvern
Speaking on webdev
cinder flare
exams in 3 weeks
3 weeks? lol I just had midterms last week
quiet depot
teachers here recommend studying 4 hours per subject per week outside of school
in practice students study for much longer than that
cinder flare
bro wtf
quiet depot
6 subjects btw
old wyvern
What they teach in class:
cinder flare
what country again
quiet depot
aus
cinder flare
damn why is it so hard over there lol
old wyvern
Assignments
cinder flare
what subjects?
old wyvern
3 weeks? lol I just had midterms last week
Yea my sem just started
quiet depot
i do 2 maths, chemistry, physics, engineering, and compulsory english
cinder flare
Luckily my school is basically the most remote a school can be, so we still had in person classes last semester and still have them this semester
cinder flare
I mean thats an exact copy from the "Lab assignment" image given to recreate
Ah so your name's not Victoria and you don't like Spatulas?
old wyvern
what subjects?
old wyvern
wait yugi that's your assignment?
The second one?
Yea
The class is pretty much an intro
old wyvern
2nd
quiet depot
competitive programming scares me
old wyvern
4th sem rn excluding the intersession semester
quiet depot
I'd hate working under a deadline like that
jovial warren
teachers here recommend studying 4 hours per subject per week outside of school
Sounds about right, but do I do that? 
no
old wyvern
Most of my uni is only interested in that for some reason
Especially juniors
I dont understand the peak this year
quiet depot
yeah but bardy you only have 3 subjects right?
old wyvern
Everyone actually started working in their first years this time
cinder flare
im a 1st year uni boi, so I'm still being eased in
cinder flare
Though I did do a few assignments for a year 4 class just cause they looked fun and the professor gave them to me cause he likes me :)
old wyvern
lol
quiet depot
oof
jovial warren
that includes English, Maths and science
quiet depot
and I thought my life was hard
jovial warren
but I do triple science, so each science is separated
cinder flare
ugh the best part about uni is only having to take like 1 class of all the geneds
jovial warren
and I thought my life was hard
I just kinda ignore it exists and do my own thing
cinder flare
Over my 8 semesters, I only need 1 English class, 1 Humanities class, 1 Arts class, and then cause I'm a CS major: 4 Math classes and 2 science classes
quiet depot
do u need to do well to get into uni?
jovial warren
oh also, all of that time that they expect from us is for revision
cinder flare
But most of the rest are related to CS
jovial warren
do u need to do well to get into uni?
oh yes
cinder flare
do u need to do well to get into uni?
Pretty good yeah, but you get a lot of scholarships if you do really well
old wyvern
I have like 3 humanities classes 🥲
cinder flare
I got a 33 on the ACT and had a 3.9 GPA, so I got a full-ride scholarship to my uni
old wyvern
Finished all of them in first year tho
jovial warren
you gotta get 3 A levels, and to get into sixth form you gotta get 9 grades 5-9 and a 6 in each subject you want to do
or something like that
cinder flare
you gotta get 3 A levels, and to get into sixth form you gotta get 9 grades 5-9 ...
yeah that shit is hardcore
we take one standardized test and that's it lol
jovial warren
oh we have to do 4 English papers, 3 Maths papers, 6 Science papers, 3 History papers, 3 Geography papers, like 4 Spanish papers and 2 Computer Science papers
or at least, I would, if they weren’t cancelled
so we now do mini assessments and the teachers determine our grades
quiet depot
starmism that's probs cuz america is pay to win though
don't think it's like that in the rest of the world
jovial warren
which is actually worse for me, because I have a really good memory and have a history of winging it in exams
the benefits of Autism lol
old wyvern
You have autism??
jovial warren
you’ve never seen me mention that before?
old wyvern
Nope
jovial warren
well, now you know I guess
half harness
👀
cinder flare
oh nice bro
cinder flare
starmism that's probs cuz america is pay to win though
well yeah it pretty much is, but if you do really good you get stuff for free like I did!
so it's not really pay to win, it's if you're shit at life, you can pay to still get in
old wyvern
if you're shit at life, you can pay to still get in
Is that not what pay to win means?
jovial warren
the UK is pay to win, but the government will give you a student loan for university if you can’t afford it
and it’s no interest or no requirements for payback time
old wyvern
I see
jovial warren
they take money out of your wage to pay it back when you earn over a certain amount
so the more you earn, the faster you’ll pay it off
it’s a really good way to encourage people to go to university and get a degree
cinder flare
i guess it is pay to win actually now that I think about it
but you don't really get an advantage over people who are good, so it's not that pay to win
jovial warren
I bet the US doesn’t have that
jovial warren
oh also, school is completely free until 18 over here
jovial warren
the government funds that too
oh also, our health service is government funded too
cinder flare
I think most civilized nations have free schooling until 18ish
jovial warren
so suck on that one
cinder flare
oh also, our health service is government funded too
okay you don't have to rub it in, that ones a sore spot
cinder flare
change is hard when you only have two parties, both of which can be paid near infinite amounts of money to not make any good laws
old wyvern
oh also, our health service is government funded too
There are no private health care centers?
cinder flare
I presume there are options lol
cinder flare
But mostly unnecessary, since the NHS is pretty good
jovial warren
There are no private health care centers?
no private hospitals, there are private orthodontists and dentists ofc
cinder flare
Bro my taxes ain't even that bad
jovial warren
no private doctors’ surgeries either
old wyvern
😮
cinder flare
And some states still don't!
cinder flare
So if I want a steam game, I get my friend in Georgia to buy it for me then gift it to me since he doesn't have online sales tax
winter iron
cinder flare
exactly!
jovial warren
the NHS is completely overloaded (not counting the pandemic)
cinder flare
but it's untraceable since it's like 2 dollars and who cares about a steam game
well yeah but it's still pretty good at least
and at least you're not stuck in years of debt if you like break your leg or something
jovial warren
when my stepdad was rushed to hospital because he has chronhs disease, he waited 9 hours to get seen
jovial warren
we live on benefits, but we’re surprisingly well off
old wyvern
🥲
cinder flare
we live on benefits, but we’re surprisingly well off
good, I like people to not be dirt-poor
jovial warren
oh come on Yugi, there’s better GIFs than that
jovial warren
good, I like people to not be dirt-poor
yeah the government (somewhat) helps you out if you’re struggling
cinder flare
https://i.imgur.com/qxYRCJu.jpg
what uh, exactly am I looking at here boss?
unkempt tangle
magic
@jovial warren You still haven't helped me
I changed the idea to decompile it
Rather go for debugging
jovial warren
pensions are really funny though, as they will take money away from your government pension if you earn money from a private pension
they do the same with benefits too
old wyvern
oh come on Yugi, there’s better GIFs than that
old wyvern
oh god
jovial warren
https://tenor.com/view/smh-the-office-john-krasinski-jim-halpert-shake-head-gif-...
lol
wish I was at home rn and not in history listening to my teacher talking about how to answer exam questions lol
we have iPads so we can get away with it
forest pecan
we have laptops
cinder flare
bro imagine going to class
jovial warren
the school iPads are probably the most abused piece of equipment we have available to us
cinder flare
we have laptops
same bro, you fucking bet I'm coding on my macbook with IntelliJ pre-configured and not NotePad++ on the school computer
jovial warren
lol
cinder flare
though it's my own laptop, not a school provided one
forest pecan
i ran buildtools for every single nms version on my school laptop
cinder flare
bruh wtf
cinder flare
buildtools go brrrRRRRrrrrr
unkempt tangle
aww
forest pecan
i also installed 3 ide's
jovial warren
same bro, you fucking bet I'm coding on my macbook with IntelliJ pre-configured ...
oh yeah, I’ve asked for IntelliJ so many times now and they just don’t listen, I’m stuck using Python 3.2 with PyScripter portable
unkempt tangle
Just get illegally all spigot versions from getbukkit
forest pecan
lmao
cinder flare
oh yeah, I’ve asked for IntelliJ so many times now and they just don’t listen, I...
at least ask for PyCharm bro
cinder flare
Just get illegally all spigot versions from getbukkit
or just get paper from one click on their website
unkempt tangle
They dont contain any nms
forest pecan
they build it for you
jovial warren
I swear if Barry blocked what I said again
cinder flare
they build it for you
he's got it
jovial warren
my system administrator is the sort of arrogant ass hole who blocks EXEs from running
did that send?
yeah it did
so I can’t even run IntelliJ portable
forest pecan
theres this fucking alarm that keeps ringing
that is out of batteries
i had to sleep through it
fuck the alarm
cinder flare
Well, I mean I'd stop people from running random exe's on my computers too lol
jovial warren
also, it’s not even that Python is a bad language (which I kinda like it now tbh), it’s the fact that we only have Python 3.2 and no cryptography libraries lol
or enums
which were added in 3.4
cinder flare
I dislike Python for many reasons, primarily because I was forced to learn it from the basics like 4 times throughout school
Every intro to programming class was in python for some reason, and I yearned for Java
jovial warren
yeah we’re basically forced to use Python
cinder flare
Now I have Java, I yearn for Kotlin lol
jovial warren
I love how there‘s no setup or BS in Python though, which means I can just throw things together and they just work
I mean, don’t get me wrong, anyone who writes a backend in Python should be shot, but it’s a good language overall imo
in that way, it’s like JS
the problem with Python isn’t the language, it’s the people who use it
also, I mentioned Python, pig where you at lol
oh also, in terms of simplicity of Python, I managed to write a simple socket client and server in about 20 lines
half harness
Just get illegally all spigot versions from getbukkit
half harness
pinging admin 👀
jovial warren
he doesn’t mind
half harness
time to ping piggy every day /s
onyx loom
just dont ping glare kek
jovial warren
if you’re responding to him, he doesn’t mind
regal gale
But if you ping..
jovial warren
he doesn’t like random pings though
regal gale
Dead
half harness
i like never ping anyone ever since getting banned for a ping/reply 👀
cinder flare
you got banned for it? lmao
jovial warren
cube and clip don’t really mind getting pinged either
cinder flare
it helps keep track in a conversation where like, more than 2 people are talking at once
that way you know who you're replying to
half harness
lol its been so long since the reply feature came out
jovial warren
as long as it’s for a reason
regal gale
We're gonna play another would you code
half harness
wot
jovial warren
and feel free to ping Frosty until he tells you to jump off a cliff 
regal gale
public void method(){
}
or java public void method() { }
quiet depot
nah i've never used sockets
jovial warren
```java
public void method(){
}
```
or ```java
public void method() {
}```
second
jovial warren
nah i've never used sockets
fair
half harness
btw how come if i ping staff it only sometimes says "Don't ping staff!"
like it never happened to me
but i saw it happen to others
jovial warren
depends on the channel I think i
regal gale
It's weird, cause I still see people still have the habit of using the 1st one, even though it looks really ugly
cinder flare
2
jovial warren
in here, it’s mostly fine
cinder flare
or normal method
half harness
normal
cinder flare
thank god
jovial warren
```java
public void method ()
{
stuff;
}
```
die
regal gale
I don't get that...
cinder flare
that right there, is the reason I hate C#
regal gale
Oh
jovial warren
BM likes allman
half harness
ew
cinder flare
ew
regal gale
That reminded me, I already have the habit of using java convention into Arduino IDE lol
jovial warren
@prisma wave allman bad
regal gale
@jovial warren sx loves it even more
jovial warren
yeah ik, Sx is one strange human being though
onyx loom
btw how come if i ping staff it only sometimes says "Don't ping staff!"
support channels get that message
jovial warren
he uses allman in Kotlin, like wtf
half harness
support channels get that message
oh
onyx loom
```java
public void method ()
{
stuff;
}
```
allman good hello hello
jovial warren
he prefers allman functions over expression functions
cinder flare
allman good hello hello
that was an example of what NOT to do
half harness
public void Hi() {}
wrong
jovial warren
like Java-style functions over expression functions
onyx loom
no
jovial warren
allman bad
onyx loom
expressions functions are meh, hinders readability imo
half harness
allman bad
allman ||bad||
cinder flare
if it's good enough for K&R, it's good enough for me boss
jovial warren
I suppose I am “one of those” who uses single line if statements lol