#dev-general | HelpChat | Page 336

onyx loom Mar 8, 2021, 4:57 PM

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ur gross

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 4:58 PM

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property-based injection > constructor-based injection

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anyway, enough of that

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what should I do?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 4:58 PM

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jovial warren property-based injection > constructor-based injection

Literally untrue

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 4:59 PM

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constructor injection is so easy

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especially in kotlin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 4:59 PM

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jovial warren what should I do?

Leave it up to the consumer

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 4:59 PM

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prisma wave Leave it up to the consumer

yeah but then how do I get instances to give access to things like Server?

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 4:59 PM

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jovial warren property-based injection > constructor-based injection

Very untrue

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 4:59 PM

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singletons are just

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https://tenor.com/WL0W.gif

Tenor

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unless those singletons are Kotlin's object, in which those are amazing

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

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why is instantiating the class your self bad exactly?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

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surreal quarry why is instantiating the class your self bad exactly?

because then I can't DI instances of the Server from the backend when I load the plugin

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

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why not?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

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why would I be able to?

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

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Why don't you require plugins that to have a server as property of the constructor of the main class?

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:01 PM

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you have an instance of the server, just pass it when you instantiate the class

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:01 PM

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class Plugin(private val server: Server) : JavaPlugin()

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:01 PM

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jovial warren yeah but then how do I get instances to give access to things like `Server`?

Constructors if you don't want static

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:01 PM

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oh right, you're saying I should instantiate it myself James, I thought you were saying it was a bad idea for me as a developer to instantiate it myself

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:01 PM

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ocean quartz Why don't you require plugins that to have a server as property of the construct...

Yeah that's what I meant

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:02 PM

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I might just instantiate it myself tbh

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:02 PM

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no im saying what matt is saying

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:02 PM

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might be easier

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:02 PM

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jovial warren I might just instantiate it myself tbh

That's literally what all of us are saying to do

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:03 PM

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right, so then an initialize method or something I guess for loading plugin shit?

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(a bit like Bukkit's onEnable)

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:04 PM

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If multithreading is a focus (which it seems to be) you should probably be strongly discouraging state and mutability

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:04 PM

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not really, they could use the init block or constructor

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:04 PM

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^

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:04 PM

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surreal quarry not really, they could use the init block or constructor

eh, yeah

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I'm thinking that an initialize function might make more sense though

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and then shutdown for disabling

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:05 PM

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could you do what JDA does and have a shutdown event that they listen to

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:05 PM

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Yes

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Reactive model much better

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:06 PM

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surreal quarry could you do what JDA does and have a shutdown event that they listen to

https://tenor.com/WL0W.gif

Tenor

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:06 PM

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why not?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:06 PM

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You have a choice here, go with the traditional bukkit API design and accept that thread safety will be hard, or use an actual concurrency model

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Event driven works very well

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Reactive works well

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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I don't like Velocity's method of listening for events for initialisation

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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state machines not so much

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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prisma wave You have a choice here, go with the traditional bukkit API design and accept tha...

plugins will be initialised in a specific order all synchronously

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that's not what's async

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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doesn't matter

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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it's the actual playing of the game that's all async

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:07 PM

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still seems nicer to use events

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:08 PM

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eh, I don't like that idea tbh

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:08 PM

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my vote is init/constructor/startup event & shutdown event, but its your project so its up to you lol

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:09 PM

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I could provide events and the method I guess

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best of both worlds

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:10 PM

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if you do that make it an open not abstract method por favor

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:10 PM

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one thing I definitely will provide though is heavy encapsulation and strong limits on what plugins can actually do

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:10 PM

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surreal quarry if you do that make it an open not abstract method por favor

I wanna make Plugin an interface, so I can just make this a method with a default implementation

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:11 PM

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yea that works

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why limit what plugins can do?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:11 PM

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jovial warren best of both worlds

Inconsistent

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:13 PM

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surreal quarry why limit what plugins can do?

I don't want plugins being able to disable other plugins for example

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like none of the plugin management or loading should be visible in the API

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:14 PM

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oh yea

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:15 PM

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e.g. in Bukkit, you can call Bukkit.getPluginManager().disablePlugin(anyPluginInstance)

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:15 PM

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i guess i will just need to use reflection in order to take over servers

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:15 PM

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lol

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the way I want this to work though, your plugin won't have any idea if any other plugins actually exist on the server

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actually that might be a bad idea for dependencies

hot hull Mar 8, 2021, 5:16 PM

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would fuck dependencies yea

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:16 PM

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but maybe I can do that another way

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:17 PM

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you can expose parts of the process so things like dependencies can work and then just make other parts like disabling plugins internal

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:18 PM

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or just make an interface that contains things like the list of plugins that exist maybe, but then do enabling and disabling on the backend

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so plugins can't do any whacky reflection to access those methods at all

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and if they want to access them, they've gotta depend on the backend

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:19 PM

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reflection would still give you access to the backend tho?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:20 PM

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eh, true I guess

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if you did some whack

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:20 PM

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Trying to stop reflection is dumb

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:20 PM

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^^

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:20 PM

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yeah I shouldn't try to stop reflection

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:20 PM

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I've seen a few people building their programs around that philosophy

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It's stupid

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Reflection literally exists to bypass restrictions when necessary

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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I just want to make it clear that enabling and disabling plugins should be avoided, and I can put across that message by putting it on the backend

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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i just expose the stuff i thing they need, but if they want to use reflection and potentially fuck something up thats up to them

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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Exactly

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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just don't expose the enable/disable stuff

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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yeah that'll be on the backend

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:21 PM

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if someone chooses to use reflection to do it and they fuck something up thats on them

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:22 PM

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also, @JvmName is gonna be my best friend and my worst enemy

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:23 PM

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i feel like kotlin does a good job of that in most cases already

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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if you're using coroutines anywhere in the API you can already forget about interop

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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yeah I'm not

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just on the backend I think

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Does coroutines not work well with Java?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Not at all

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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coroutines don't work at all with Java

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Not in the slightest

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:25 PM

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especially because of suspend

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:25 PM

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jovial warren yeah I'm not

So none of the API functions will be suspending?

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Seems an odd decision

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:25 PM

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:25 PM

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honestly if i were you I would say fuck interop and just make it a great kotlin api that suspends and does whatever it needs to do for performance

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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Mhm

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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as long as I call them from a coroutine context then all is well

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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bruh

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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actually maybe just saying "fuck you Java" is a good idea

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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why would you not make them suspending is the question

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:26 PM

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literally the only possible reason would be Java interop

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but fuck that

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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if they want to make plugins they can learn a superior language

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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Plugins in clojure yeah

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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it deadass takes like 2 days if you know java

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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That would be great

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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From the java POV such a library would just look like normal bytecode with callbacks and some method calls to kotlinx.coroutines library classes. So no different than any other asynchronous technique –
Wouldn't this be the same for plugins?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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I mean, I don't think lucko will mind lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:27 PM

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ocean quartz > From the java POV such a library would just look like normal bytecode with cal...

suspending functions have an extra parameter added by the compiler

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Which makes them pretty much impossible to call from java

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Unless you somehow generate your own Continuation

unkempt tangle Mar 8, 2021, 5:28 PM

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Senpai

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:28 PM

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also, what would I even make suspending?

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:28 PM

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something that suspends

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usually

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:28 PM

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surreal quarry something that suspends

-_-

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:29 PM

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Yeah but what I mean is that a coroutine based server would call java code, that could would be run async in theory
The issue is when Java itself tries to use it, but since the server would be the one calling the plugin i don't think there'd be an issue

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:29 PM

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maybe commands should be fully async

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that sounds like a good idea

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:29 PM

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from my experience if you make one thing suspending, you make everything suspending

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:29 PM

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commands can be async if there is nothing we need to call sync, which in how I want to design Krypton, there shouldn't be

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 5:31 PM

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suspend class Server

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ez

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whole server suspending

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:31 PM

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if only

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:32 PM

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If you suspend the whole server then nothing would be async thonking

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:32 PM

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suspending does not mean async

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:32 PM

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^

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in fact, suspending means the complete opposite

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the way you write coroutines is in a blocking way

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you write code as if it's going to block (suspending functions) and then execute it in a place where it doesn't block (coroutine scope)

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but coroutines are weird

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:34 PM

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jovial warren in fact, suspending means the complete opposite

That implies it means sync

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Which is also untrue

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:35 PM

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true

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 5:36 PM

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this is a bit misleading

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because the idea of coroutines is precisely to not have blocking code that just runs in a different thread

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:36 PM

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your turn it is then I guess

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 5:36 PM

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In essence, coroutines are callback-hell generated for you

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:37 PM

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lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:37 PM

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Mhm

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:39 PM

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also, instead of the method names addPermission and removePermission, I was thinking of using the names grant and revoke

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e.g. sender.grant("some.permission")

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or sender.revoke("some.other.permission")

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oh also, I'm debating whether to use an Array<out String> or a List<String> for command arguments

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:42 PM

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It makes 0 difference

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out on a final class 🤨

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:42 PM

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is Array final?

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didn't know that

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:42 PM

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String is

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And yes

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Array is too

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:43 PM

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alright, anyway, list it is then

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means I don't have to use any iterator bull shit

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:43 PM

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?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:43 PM

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with arrays in Kotlin, they don't have all the same functions that Iterables do

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so you have to use an Iterator and Sequences if you want to not have arrow code and access those methods

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:44 PM

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What

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:44 PM

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example of what happens when things go wrong with using arrays https://github.com/Prevarinite/Punishments/blob/master/src/main/java/com/prevarinite/punishments/commands/BanCommand.java#L35

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I mean, maybe that's just me, but ya know

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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anyway, we using a list

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 5:45 PM

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That's horrible

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:46 PM

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oh btw, on a completely random note, what do you guys think of https://ajalt.github.io/clikt/ for handling command line params?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:47 PM

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jovial warren example of what happens when things go wrong with using arrays https://github.co...

that isnt a problem in kotlin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:47 PM

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jovial warren oh btw, on a completely random note, what do you guys think of https://ajalt.git...

not really appropriate

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that's for "traditional" CLI

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rather than something like kick [Player] [reason]

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it could probably work

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but isnt great

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:49 PM

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that's not what I was on about

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read what I said again

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:50 PM

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Then yes it's fine

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:50 PM

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oh also, should CommandSender have access to the Server like Bukkit's does?

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that sounds unnecessary tbh

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:51 PM

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?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:52 PM

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what

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:53 PM

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"have access"

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like access control?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:53 PM

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I mean should it have a value in it that allows you to retrieve the server

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which is why I said it was useless

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 5:54 PM

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what are you talking about

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:54 PM

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Lost the talk about Koin :c

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Koin is just great, works pretty well

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In fact, I need to add some extensions in KotlinBukkitAPI to better support Koin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:54 PM

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koin is despicable

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in fact

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:54 PM

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😠

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:54 PM

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most libraries in the kotlin ecosystem are

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don't @ me

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:55 PM

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What is your recommendation instead of Koin for DI?

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Dagger2 is bullshit, Google DI also, Spring also

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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Personally I'd much rather use guice

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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Google DI = Guice

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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ik

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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same shit

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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Nothing wrong with Guice

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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Koin superior

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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Yes, Koin is superior

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even Kodein is superior

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:56 PM

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people in the kotlin ecosystem have an obsession with reinventing the wheel to be more "idiomatic", even though it usually ends up worse

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koin is utter trash

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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you're utter trash

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fingerguns

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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well, I don't see where Koin is worse

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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prisma wave people in the kotlin ecosystem have an obsession with reinventing the wheel to b...

also, that's literally the entire point of Kotlin lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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no it's not

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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Here on my job, we use Dagger2, Koin and Kodein

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:57 PM

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make something that's easier and nicer to use than Java is

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and has some cool features on the side (coroutines, time, etc.)

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:58 PM

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prisma wave no it's not

well, this is what the team from jetbrains say about kotlin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:58 PM

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there is a difference between making an alternative to something to fix flaws, and "fixing" something that isn't broken

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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okay, I cannot stand "if it's not broken, don't fix it"

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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Okay, Gson vs Kotlinx.serialization

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I say that Kotlin libraries are trash

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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both are fine

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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what you thnking about ktxserialization

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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the only thing ktx does better is multiple languages

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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kotlinx.serialization superior though because it's more idiomatic

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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buzzword

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meaningless

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 5:59 PM

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stfu

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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how exactly is it more idiomatic

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aside from having a dsl in some parts of the API

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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actually, maybe idiomatic isn't the word

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just being able to have serialisers be auto-generated for objects instead of having to write them yourself is amazing

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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ktx serialization just work with Kotlin, Gson, doesnot

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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and taking out reflection

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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jovial warren just being able to have serialisers be auto-generated for objects instead of hav...

have you ever used gson?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:00 PM

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samething about Guice

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:01 PM

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prisma wave the only thing ktx does better is multiple languages

oh and being multiplatform

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:01 PM

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actually yeah Gson does a similar thing

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:01 PM

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you can use in Kotlin? chore, but I will lost a bunch of features

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:01 PM

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astral quiver samething about Guice

how does Guice not work with kotlin?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:02 PM

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Generic type for example

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Kotlin just works

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:02 PM

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also, working with Kotlin libraries in Kotlin is generally better than working with Java libraries in Kotlin, as Kotlin libraries are (surprise surprise) made for Kotlin, and Java libraries are (again, surprise surprise) made for Java

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:02 PM

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you can have like a DI of Something<String> and Something<Int> and they are different

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:02 PM

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I find anyway

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:02 PM

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try to do that with Java

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:04 PM

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astral quiver you can have like a DI of Something<String> and Something<Int> and they are diff...

yes but interop exists

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:04 PM

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astral quiver you can have like a DI of Something<String> and Something<Int> and they are diff...

yes, that is a benefit (although im fairly sure Guice can do this too)

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:04 PM

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You can do this by passing DI Tags all over the place

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but, does easy, no

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There is alot of features that Java libraries simple can't support

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:06 PM

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and a lot of them aren't designed in a way that really works well for Kotlin either

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or at least, not as well as a Kotlin library generally is

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:06 PM

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There is alot of libraries build in kotlin that have a big advance in beeing kotlin

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not just for idiomatic

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performance reason

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:06 PM

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e.g. OkHttp 4 is so much better to use than OkHttp 3

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:06 PM

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like Jetpack Compose or any library that use lambdas functions in inline modifier in kotlin

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Jetpack Compose use ALOT inline classes to avoid memory allocation

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:07 PM

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e.g. MediaType.get("application/json") vs "application/json".toMediaType()

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I hate having to call utility methods in Kotlin

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it's just not the way it's meant to be

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:08 PM

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jovial warren e.g. `MediaType.get("application/json")` vs `"application/json".toMediaType()`

Lmao that's the most petty difference

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:08 PM

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yeah but one is more idiomatic

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and looks nicer imo

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:08 PM

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You can forget all the kotlin only features, is not fair with any Java library, you can put just the features that the usage in code is exacly the same, but the performance is better

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also, Java libraries are massive and confusing

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:09 PM

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because Java is massive and confusing

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:09 PM

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try for example Maven Aether

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No good documentation, you will only learn from github projects that uses this shit

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and Maven Aether is the most "Java" library that I can think (because I don't use java for long time and do not suffer anymore ❤️ )

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:11 PM

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god the circlejerk

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i thought i was bad lmao

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:12 PM

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lol

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Kotlin good Java bad

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that's just a fact around here

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it's not even a matter of opinion in this channel lol

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:12 PM

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Is not just a fact, Java is still in Java 8

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There is alot of people still using Java 8

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:13 PM

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I mean, can't really say the language is bad because idiots decide that using legacy versions is a good idea

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it's like saying Minecraft is bad because most people still use 1.8

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:13 PM

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astral quiver No good documentation, you will only learn from github projects that uses this s...

that's the problem with the library, not the language

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:13 PM

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Kotlin is developed by a company that knows all languages mainstream in the world

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they do the best tooling for a bunch of languages

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they know what they are doing

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this is the fact about kotlin

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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Kotlin is only good because it had dozens of examples of what not to do lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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jesus

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i know what kotlin is

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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prisma wave that's the problem with the library, not the language

in my experience, I never have this problem with ANY kotlin library

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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i am not talking about the language

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i am talking about a few prevalent libraries in the ecosystem

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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yeah BM thinks Kotlin superior to Java at least I think

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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namely Koin and Ktor

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:14 PM

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Ktor's DSL-based system is beautiful

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

But you say that "Kotlin libraries are despicable"

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

jovial warren yeah BM thinks Kotlin superior to Java at least I think

superior to Java 8

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

it's so idiomatic

#

maybe about level by 16?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

astral quiver But you say that "Kotlin libraries are despicable"

I said "koin is despicable"

#

with a bit of hyperbole

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

Kotlin is superior to Java 11 too

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:15 PM

#

Java 14 too

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

maybe level with 16, but that's about all I'll give you BM

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

where is the Extension function, a really good Functional type system

#

to finish it

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

maybe that will be added to 17 lol

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

Where is Jetpack Compose?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

then Java will start to look more like C#

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

Where is Fiber?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

Java doesn't want extension functions

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

true

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:16 PM

#

Why they don't?

#

All currently languages are adding it

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

probably "not the Java way"

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

Dart, Swift

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

they've already addressed this

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

astral quiver Where is Fiber?

being... worked on...?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

I mean, I don't think extension functions really fit into Java tbh either

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:17 PM

#

exactly

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:18 PM

#

with the Kotlin design, no

#

but the concept, fits

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:18 PM

#

and again, im not really talking about the language here

#

i have no problem with either language

#

i have a problem with the kotlin ecosystem's obsession with reinventing the wheel in a shitty way, adding a few 💫 idiomatic 💫 DSLs for configuration, and calling it a better library

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:19 PM

#

also, about the reinventing the wheel, you are right if the Kotlin and Java was not complete different

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:19 PM

#

huh?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:19 PM

#

okay, maybe not better

#

but Guice vs Koin is like comparing apples to oranges

#

it's personal preference imo

hot hull Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

So you don't like mangoes is what you're saying

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

Field injection sucks

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

it's two completely different ways of doing dependency injection

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

prisma wave Field injection sucks

that's your opinion

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

constructor injection is literally the only way you should be doing it

#

no

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

I personally don't mind it

#

it just feels like "the Kotlin way" to me

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

I only do constructor injection with Koin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

field injection is pretty much an anti-pattern by now

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

astral quiver I only do constructor injection with Koin

can you even do that?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

for the same reason static getters are bad

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:20 PM

#

also, Dagger does the same

#

and it a Java library

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:21 PM

#

guice supports it too

#

but afaik dagger and Guice both heavily encourage constructor injection instead

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:21 PM

#

jovial warren can you even do that?

of course, just instanciate everything in you modules

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:21 PM

#

ah yeah, that'll work

#

I mean, one thing I do like about Koin is just how stupidly lightweight it is

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:23 PM

#

About Ktor

#

there is a reason why kotlin does this

#

reinventing the wheel

#

Kotlin is multiplatform

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:23 PM

#

Koin: 143 KB
Guice: 755 KB

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:23 PM

#

jovial warren I mean, one thing I do like about Koin is just how stupidly lightweight it is

Because it does no instance creation afaik

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

Kotlin should give you the ability to use anything from any platform, but it also should give you a way to do this for all platforms

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

yeah there's no whacky reflection or classpath scanning afaik

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

guice doesn't do classpath scanning

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

just reflection then

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

it doesn't even do reflection afaik

#

It uses ASM to make a factory class

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:24 PM

#

also, don't you have to configure Guice?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

Uh

#

How so

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

I remember Piggy saying something about you having to make some configuration classes or something

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

Modules?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:25 PM

#

that'll be the one

#

I mean, I haven't a clue how Guice works since I've literally never used it ever, so I'm just curious

#

also, someone please tell me the difference between plus and unaryPlus

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:27 PM

#

astral quiver Kotlin should give you the ability to use anything from any platform, but it als...

I will admit being multiplatform is nice. However, my problem is with how the APIs are designed, not with their actual capabilities

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:28 PM

#

jovial warren I mean, I haven't a clue how Guice works since I've literally never used it ever...

Well... yeah, but you have to do that in koin as well...

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:28 PM

#

jovial warren also, someone please tell me the difference between `plus` and `unaryPlus`

3 + 4 Vs +32

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:28 PM

#

maybe your problem is with libraries with much Kotlin features?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:28 PM

#

prisma wave `3 + 4` Vs `+32`

ah right

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:29 PM

#

maybe is because you still are using alot of java

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:29 PM

#

prisma wave Well... yeah, but you have to do that in koin as well...

yeah

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:29 PM

#

astral quiver maybe is because you still are using alot of java

nah he spends his time with Haskell, Clojure and Elara mostly lol

#

and F#

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:29 PM

#

ohgod 👀

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:30 PM

#

I mean, Haskell is actually really nice

#

not sure about Clojure, it doesn't look pretty but it's a decent language I think

#

and F#, can't comment at all on that

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:30 PM

#

lisp MinusOne

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:31 PM

#

Haskell's pattern matching makes a when expression look like something out of the 80's

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:32 PM

#

Do you folks want ternary operator in Kotlin?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:32 PM

#

eh, I do fine without it

#

single line if/else statements mostly do the job

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:33 PM

#

same thing I think about Haskell or any language pattern matching comparing with Kotlin

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:33 PM

#

Kotlin has baby level pattern matching

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:34 PM

#

as I said, Haskell's pattern matching makes a when expression look like something out of the 80's lol

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:34 PM

#

Which is funny, considering, Haskell

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:35 PM

#

when have alot of feathres that I never use

#

for example, range matching

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:36 PM

#

It has a specific range pattern? Isn't that just the normal in?

oblique heath Mar 8, 2021, 6:36 PM

#

hello humans

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:36 PM

#

for numbers, I mean

#

when(x) {
1..10 -> ......
}

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:38 PM

#

is that a thing?

#

no, you do mean the regular in pattern I believe

#

It would be indistinguishable from value patterns otherwise

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:41 PM

#

also, should I make getPlayer the method to retrieve players by name and UUID?

#

but, ya know, putting get in a function name in Kotlin just feels a bit... out of place

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:44 PM

#

about pattern matching, for a scientist studding languages, sure, is "useful" but seeing the cases where pattern matching in Scala is use the most, is where kotlin already supports with when, my point is that is clear that the Kotlin team is not building a language with alot of feature, they are build a language with useful features, that you will use all the time

#

I kinda miss some features in kotlin, but I don't have any feature that I don't use

#

and comparing with like Java, Kotlin has alot more features

#

you I just use it all

#

This is why Haskell is cool but is not usage in the industry

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:46 PM

#

haskell sure isn't a language rooted in pragmatism like kotlin

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:47 PM

#

kotlin is not just pragmatic, it is also concise, in this is important

#

bit operators show what concise to Kotlin means

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:48 PM

#

bitwise operations in Kotlin are horrible compared with other languages in terms of being concise

#

there's no assignment that can be done with them either, so you have to do something like variable = variable or 1 for example, like you're in some GCSE computer science class learning Python for the first time

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

what was the last time that you use bitwise operations that was not for minecraft or any type of protocol handling?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

astral quiver bit operators show what concise to Kotlin means

possibly the worst example you can pick

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

I mean, I can definitely say that it's more readable, but more concise? better?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

in the world real, how much you will use bitwise?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

actually quite a lot

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

also, even though I wasn't talking about concision, most functional languages are very much concise

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

lunar cypress possibly the worst example you can pick

I meant concise in language features, operators, not about the code it self

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:50 PM

#

bitwise operations are what make maths algorithms fast

#

and other things

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:51 PM

#

astral quiver I meant concise in language features, operators, not about the code it self

I don't get the meaning of concise in this context

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:51 PM

#

if you are a CS, that will try to optimize a algorithm that also created in 90s, sure

#

in the world software world you will not use it alot

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

...except when you do

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

jovial warren nah he spends his time with Haskell, Clojure and Elara mostly lol

Not true

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

lunar cypress I don't get the meaning of concise in this context

features/operators that really matters

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

I use them for educational purposes only, I regularly use Kotlin and Java

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

that is very subjective

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 6:53 PM

#

bitwise really is useful

#

its often overlooked

#

many algorithms actually use bitwise and are severely reliant on them

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:54 PM

#

Yes, they use, but how many times you will try this algorithms ?

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 6:54 PM

#

If you are an algorithmic student like me

#

you would understand

#

🙂

#

they are the savior from getting a 60% to a 100%

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:56 PM

#

The point is, should jetbrains add this because 1% of developers uses day by day, increasing language operators, increasing compilation time?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:56 PM

#

prisma wave I use them for educational purposes only, I regularly use Kotlin and Java

"educational purposes"

#

a.k.a circlejerking

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:56 PM

#

jovial warren Haskell's pattern matching makes a `when` expression look like something out of ...

It gets even better when you realise pattern matching can be used pretty much everywhere, rather than just case expressions

#

As far as I know

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 6:57 PM

#

as I said, circlejerking lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:57 PM

#

jovial warren a.k.a circlejerking

Predominantly learning and tinkering with in COC, but yes also circlejerking

oblique heath Mar 8, 2021, 6:57 PM

#

clash of clans!???!?!?!!111one!

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:58 PM

#

astral quiver This is why Haskell is cool but is not usage in the industry

Haskell is used by Facebook and other companies

#

saying FP isn't used in industry is such an outdated comment

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 6:58 PM

#

do ppl even know what circlejerking means lmao

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:58 PM

#

It hasn't been true for many years

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:58 PM

#

forest pecan do ppl even know what circlejerking means lmao

Apparently not

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 6:58 PM

#

ikr

#

its dirty minded

#

xD

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:59 PM

#

well it doesn't really mean that anymore

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 6:59 PM

#

yea ig

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:59 PM

#

But yes

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 6:59 PM

#

prisma wave saying FP isn't used in industry is such an outdated comment

I'm not talking about FP, I'm talking about Haskell

#

Elixir is new and shine and it is growing ALOT in the industry

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 6:59 PM

#

As I said, Haskell is also used in industry

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:01 PM

#

astral quiver The point is, should jetbrains add this because 1% of developers uses day by day...

this is a non-argument in the case of kotlin, kotlin has so much syntax

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:01 PM

#

yeah kotlin is a very syntax-y language

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:01 PM

#

yes, but I use it all every day

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:01 PM

#

doubt.

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:01 PM

#

all the kotlin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:02 PM

#

i could count the times ive used crossinline on one hand

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:02 PM

#

same lol

#

in fact, I wouldn't even need any hands to do it

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:02 PM

#

When do you have a bunch of Java apis that you need to make it better with Kotlin Inline Function

#

you will use all the time

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

astral quiver The point is, should jetbrains add this because 1% of developers uses day by day...

increasing compilation time isnt the issue

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

specially in android

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

forest pecan increasing compilation time isnt the issue

Hello Scala

#

for a Hello World project? sure

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

I swear Kotlin's compiler already has to do quite a lot anyway

#

since Kotlin has so many features

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

Kotlin's compiler is slow comparing with Java

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:03 PM

#

not really

#

sometimes it can be faster than java

#

normally it's pretty close

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:04 PM

#

depends on what you're compiling

#

the Kotlin compiler does have more to do though

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:04 PM

#

you meant the new compiler?

#

because here with Android, is pretty close, but is not so much

#

compilation time of 30m here is normal with big apps

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:05 PM

#

also, I swear you just contradicted yourself

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:05 PM

#

you don't have microservice to salve you :c

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:05 PM

#

astral quiver for a Hello World project? sure

im not joking

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:05 PM

#

complaining about bitwise operators increasing compile time and then saying Kotlin's compiler is slow anyway

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:05 PM

#

I also not joking

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:06 PM

#

even though Kotlin's bitwise functions are more readable, that does not by any means make them "better"

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:06 PM

#

more readable

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:06 PM

#

More relaxed area to discuss development topics

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:06 PM

#

don't

#

even

#

TRY

#

and get

#

configuration

#

help

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:06 PM

#

Not configuration help

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

so u are saying to take out bitwise??

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

language operators, YES!

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

yes

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

jovial warren even though Kotlin's bitwise functions are more readable, that does not by any m...

in what world are kotlin's bitwise functions more readable

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

i cba to scroll up but im about 95% sure dedicated bitwise operators would make a negligible difference in compile times

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

all of the bitwise

#

remove

#

obliterate

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

I think shl is more readable than <<, since I just find it easier to read shl as "shift left" rather than having to think about which direction << is shifting

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

yes

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:07 PM

#

thats stupid?

#

lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

jovial warren I think `shl` is more readable than `<<`, since I just find it easier to read `s...

it's literally 2 arrows pointing to the left

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

because < seems to sometimes be difficult for my eyes to read properly lol

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

<< is an established operator in pretty much every other C family language

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

yeah ik, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that I sometimes find it difficult to remember what it means

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

I've yet to see a language that uses shl as an abbreviation

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:08 PM

#

bUt MuH cOmPiLaTiOn TiMeS

#

mUh 5 nAnOsEcOnDs

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:09 PM

#

lunar cypress << is an established operator in pretty much every other C family language

And because of that, all languages should have?

#

also ternary operator?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:09 PM

#

no, but because of that, there is no reason to come up with your own cluttered language for it

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:09 PM

#

I think bitwise operators are vastly superior, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying that personally, for me, shl is easier to read than <<

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:09 PM

#

you could make the same argument for && and ||

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:10 PM

#

jovial warren I think bitwise operators are vastly superior, don't get me wrong, but I'm just ...

yeah until you run into parenthesis hell because of infix precedence

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:10 PM

#

prisma wave yeah until you run into parenthesis hell because of infix precedence

oh yep, I've come across that one enough times

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:10 PM

#

bitwise operators is superior, of course, but the point is not what is the best and "bitwise operator is a edge case operator?"

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:10 PM

#

infix precedence

#

no assignment

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:11 PM

#

what benefit is there to not using the known operators

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:11 PM

#

yeah that was definitely a mistake on kotlin's part i think

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:11 PM

#

lunar cypress what benefit is there to not using the known operators

^

#

also, bitwise operators aren't "edge case" operators

#

they are very common and very useful operators

#

if they were in fact "edge case" operators, then C and C like languages wouldn't have dedicated symbols for them

#

especially at the lower level, bitwise operators are very common and very useful operators

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:13 PM

#

if you will do low level stuff with Kotlin

#

you already doing the wrong thing

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:13 PM

#

why?

#

kotlin can be low level

static zealot Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

my head hurts

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

Java has native methods that call native code like C and C++. You should have bitwise operators in Java. Kotlin follows Java but it is less verbose. It has this same idea of native code as well. (cause C and C++ use a lot of bitwise)

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

yeah, sure, let's just write all of our network protocols in C and the JNI

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

Removing bitwise operating has no sense at all

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

when we use kotlin

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

Can do low level operations in Kotlin Native, but it was never build to do that

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:14 PM

#

i dont get your point

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

we just pretend we'll never have to work with raw bytes

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

The point is that, there is language for performance

#

and Kotlin does interop with

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

?

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

uhh wot

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

uh oh

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

lunar cypress we just pretend we'll never have to work with raw bytes

what's a byte? kotlin only has Int

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

Kotlin is not the language that you will do low level algorithm in it

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:15 PM

#

let's just write all of our network protocols in C and the JNI
for the record: this is a joke

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

You will do this in Rust, C, C++

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

astral quiver Kotlin is not the language that you will do low level algorithm in it

????

static zealot Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

does anyone have a tutorial step by step on how to upload a jar to a vps from my pc and then run it? My head hurts to much to give docker another try

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

algorithms can be implemented in any language?

#

you crazy?

#

my algorithms are literally in Java

#

it doesnt matter what language I use

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

static zealot does anyone have a tutorial step by step on how to upload a jar to a vps from my...

sftp + java -jar

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

holy shit

#

you can code the same algorithm in any language

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

static zealot does anyone have a tutorial step by step on how to upload a jar to a vps from my...

sftp 🙂

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:16 PM

#

thats the definition

#

of what an algorithm

#

literally is

#

otherwise it would be stupid

static zealot Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

so now I need to set up sftp? great 😦

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

so, tell me why something: Why projects like bungeecord uses JNI for compression stuff?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

sftp is ssh

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

Because why not?

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

sftp is there by default

static zealot Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

oh

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

on most things

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

why not just write in java (and they write)

#

Why there is so many big projects in java using ALOTTTTT of binding libraries

#

for performance reasons

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

prisma wave sftp + `java -jar`

ew

#

rsync superior

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:17 PM

#

why just not write in Java?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

rsync only sends differences, and supports built-in compression and other tools

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

You realize that an algorithm thats much better can perform 10x faster in java than compared to brute force in C

#

i dont think you understand at all

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

ok, and whenever we need this sort of stuff in kotlin as a base for higher level code, we are seriously supposed to resort to the JNI every time?

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

^^

#

The translation also takes huge

#

of a time to ranslate

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

forest pecan You realize that an algorithm thats much better can perform 10x faster in java t...

it depends alot

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

have you ever written to the JNI? it's horrible

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

astral quiver it depends alot

?????

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

they know it themselves

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

java does not have any magic

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

have you even done algorithms before?

#

jesus

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:18 PM

#

astral quiver java does not have any magic

huh?

heady birch Mar 8, 2021, 7:19 PM

#

java has no magic.
the compiler is pretty clever though

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:19 PM

#

bitwise operators: too obscure, not appropriate to the language, not used
unaryPlus: PogChamp2 🤤 🐪

heady birch Mar 8, 2021, 7:20 PM

#

Not compiler, runtime, hotspot I think?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:20 PM

#

The JVM Compiler is pretty clever, but, if you say to me that Java will be 10x faster then a well writing C

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:20 PM

#

I said the algorithm

#

dumbass

#

if the algorithm is smarter

#

of course it will run 10x faster

#

or even more

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:21 PM

#

I'm talking about the same one

obtuse gale Mar 8, 2021, 7:21 PM

#

that tells me you didn't read the message lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:21 PM

#

blockchain can make bubble sort the fastest sorting algorithm on the planet

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:21 PM

#

pick like quicksort

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:21 PM

#

the reason people turn to JNI/JNA for very specific and critical parts is that usually there are established standardised native libraries for those parts that no one can be bothered to port to the JVM

#

But, I mean, there is stuff beyond this extreme

#

It's not always so incredibly critical and highly optimised

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:22 PM

#

if java is so good why isnt there the RUSt native interface

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:22 PM

#

Java vs C, java will never be 10x faster with a well developed C

#

Maybe if I write in C it will

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:22 PM

#

not always true

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 7:22 PM

#

elara will always be at least 100x faster. that is the only certainty in the world

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:22 PM

#

it is true, can't deny that

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:23 PM

#

if java is so good why RUST exists?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:23 PM

#

but it's not a reason to dismiss basic operators

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:23 PM

#

we have reached peak irony

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:23 PM

#

because having to turn to the JNI every time you want to write something involving raw bytes... I think I'd shoot myself in the head

spring canyon Mar 8, 2021, 7:24 PM

#

lmao

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:24 PM

#

haskell native interface

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:24 PM

#

JVM with Hotspot is just awesome, with a big project it will be faster the C, of course, the both developers in C and Java will make mistakes that well, Hotspot sometimes can fix it

#

but the C developer doing a stupid thing? no

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:24 PM

#

public native static IO<Object> HS_putStrLn(String s) {

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:24 PM

#

I just vomited

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:25 PM

#

prisma wave public native static IO<Object> HS_putStrLn(String s) {

what
the
actual
fuck
is
that

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

haskell native inteface

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

lunar cypress because having to turn to the JNI every time you want to write something involvi...

well, if you NEED the operators, I mean << >> | & ^

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

for interacting with haskell when you want speed 🙂

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

prisma wave haskell native inteface

you can technically use haskell functions in java

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

no way

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:26 PM

#

well, haskell has an FFI so...

#

I assume it will get very messy very quickly though

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:27 PM

#

amazing

heady birch Mar 8, 2021, 7:29 PM

#

((b as u32) << (c as u32)) as i32

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:29 PM

#

public interface Monad<T> {
    <A, B> Monad<B> bind(Monad<A> m, Function<A, Monad<B>> function);
    <A> Monad<A> return(A a);
}

#

pragmatic

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:29 PM

#

this is Arrow?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:30 PM

#

If I had less will to live I would try JNI + haskell now

#

But I'll leave that to you

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

lunar cypress well, haskell has an FFI so...

😮

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

https://wiki.haskell.org/Foreign_Function_Interface

Foreign Function Interface

heady birch Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

Arrow looks interesting https://arrow-kt.io/ this?

Λrrow

Functional companion to Kotlin's Standard Library

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

Adding on from impure languages 😫

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

interface Monad<T> {

    fun <A, B> Monad<B> bind(m: Monad<A>, function: (A) -> Monad<B>)

    fun <A> Monad<A> return(a: A)
}

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

Arrow Meta is more interesting

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

😎

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:31 PM

#

sadly

#

will not work

#

afaik

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

I need to go deep in FP

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

old wyvern Adding on from impure languages 😫

kotlin cant be saved without a REWORK of syntax and CURRYING and PURE ITY

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

because I don't miss any thing from it

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

prisma wave kotlin cant be saved without a REWORK of syntax and CURRYING and PURE ITY

lol

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

you folks saw the value class proposal?

#

immutability at the type level, finally

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

java had it first

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

with mutating

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:32 PM

#

C + Haskell + Rust = Casket
Seems like a subliminal message. Dont mix the pure with the impure

#

!!!

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:33 PM

#

actually, not, is not the samething

#

and Java still does not release with

#

so.... Java simple does not have

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:33 PM

#

kotlin devs see a java achievenment and try to STEAL it!!

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

Value Classes in Java will be immutable too?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

every dev sees a haskell achievement and gazes in AWE

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

astral quiver Value Classes in Java will be immutable too?

yes

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

when will we be getting type class HUH andrey??

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

thank god

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:34 PM

#

astral quiver Value Classes in Java will be immutable too?

Are value types in C++ immutable?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

I don't know C++, I don't like C++

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

I remember their fields being assignable in C++

#

so maybe

#

Because Java already got records

#

for immutable data

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

prisma wave when will we be getting `type class` HUH andrey??

The folks from Arrow want to add it

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

In java's case, value types are more than just language level constructs

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

https://github.com/arrow-kt/arrow-meta

GitHub

arrow-kt/arrow-meta

Functional companion to Kotlin's Compiler. Contribute to arrow-kt/arrow-meta development by creating an account on GitHub.

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM

#

lunar cypress In java's case, value types are more than just language level constructs

also in Kotlin

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

lunar cypress In java's case, value types are more than just language level constructs

Same in C++ as well tho?

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

when is not targeting JVM of course

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

every body gangster until interface Functor<T> gets added

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

astral quiver also in Kotlin

how so? kotlin doesn't control the jvm

heady birch Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

modifier pubfin extends final, public {
}

class MyClassWithFinalProperties {
//implicitly final!
pubfin String myPublicFinalString;
}

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

discord has brainfuck for code formatting

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

old wyvern Same in C++ as well tho?

who tf is talking about c++

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

They just exist on the stack, that doesnt mean they have to be immutable I think

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

lunar cypress how so? kotlin doesn't control the jvm

when is not targeting JVM of course

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 7:36 PM

#

lunar cypress who tf is talking about c++

look up like 2 messages

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:37 PM

#

heady birch modifier pubfin extends final, public { } class MyClassWithFinalProperties { ...

the establishment is quaking

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:37 PM

#

Value Classes at JVM Level will be just fucking great

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:38 PM

#

does this arrow stuff have proper documentation?

#

not just overview articles and talks

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 7:38 PM

#

i would hope so lmao

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:39 PM

#

I'm having trouble finding it

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:39 PM

#

https://arrow-kt.io/

Λrrow

Functional companion to Kotlin's Standard Library

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:39 PM

#

WHIPPIng the dead horse

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:39 PM

#

astral quiver https://arrow-kt.io/

could you point me to it? the website is weird for me

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

Just choose what you want to learn

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

for example, it doesn't let me select the meta module and a tutorial type at the same time

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

core, fx, optics, meta

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

just 4Head

#

the website literally doesn't work properly for me

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

oh

#

https://arrow-kt.io/docs/core/

#

https://arrow-kt.io/docs/fx/

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

thanks

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:40 PM

#

https://arrow-kt.io/docs/optics/dsl/

#

https://meta.arrow-kt.io/

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:41 PM

#

so you're telling me haskell is academic shit but when kotlin does it it's cool?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:42 PM

#

kotlin users alergic to parentheses... find a cure for cancer "DOES IT HAVE A DSL????"... no

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:42 PM

#

lunar cypress so you're telling me haskell is academic shit but when kotlin does it it's cool?

obviously

#

havent you heard the news? kotlin good, every other language bad

onyx loom Mar 8, 2021, 7:43 PM

#

breaking news

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:44 PM

#

fun nextTalkCity(speaker: Speaker): Task<City> {
    return
        speaker
        .nextTalk()         .execute().then { x -> x
        .getConference()   }.execute().then { x -> x
        .getCity()         }
}
```ok call me biased but I've never seen this

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:44 PM

#

what the

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:45 PM

#

lunar cypress so you're telling me haskell is academic shit but when kotlin does it it's cool?

I don't use Arrow and does not like it

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:45 PM

#

wait...

#

is that supposed to be a

#

=?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:46 PM

#

yep

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:46 PM

#

dear god

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:46 PM

#

interface Monad<F>: Applicative<F>, Functor<F>, Selective<F> {
    fun <A> just (instance: A): Kind<F, A> // this comes from [Applicative] interface

    fun <A, B> Kind<F, A>.flatMap(f: (A) ->  Kind<F, B>) : Kind<F, B>
}```

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:46 PM

#

oh my god

#

why do people do this to themselves

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:48 PM

#

This is why I don't like Arrow

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:48 PM

#

well why not

astral quiver Mar 8, 2021, 7:48 PM

#

just add boilerplate to code

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 7:48 PM

#

huh?

#

that's despicable, sure, but i wouldnt call it boilerplate

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:57 PM

#

Don’t be afraid of the “M-word” just because you are a Kotlin programmer.

#

I find this interesting, honestly

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 7:59 PM

#

What is the m-word? xD

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 7:59 PM

#

building an ml-like type system in kotlin must be very hard

#

m*nad

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 8:00 PM

#

Oh!

static zealot Mar 8, 2021, 8:01 PM

#

monad ?

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 8:03 PM

#

shhh

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:03 PM

#

😱

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 8:03 PM

#

Also, there was an article about function composition in kotlin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:03 PM

#

hmmm

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 8:04 PM

#

but there was pretty much a compose function for every arity tho xD

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:04 PM

#

😬

#

And they say kotlin is multi-paradigm

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:07 PM

#

not really sure if functional programming fits in Kotlin tbh

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:08 PM

#

half of kotlin is inspired by functional programming

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:08 PM

#

or at least, Arrow's functional programming

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:08 PM

#

is companion object the same thing as static?

#

(in kotlin)

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:09 PM

#

not really

#

it is and it isn't

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:09 PM

#

what is the difference?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:10 PM

#

an object is basically a singleton

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:10 PM

#

It becomes a class the enclosing class keeps a singleton reference of

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:10 PM

#

^

#

the best way to understand how Kotlin actually works is to click on tools -> Kotlin -> show Kotlin bytecode and decompile

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:11 PM

#

oh

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:11 PM

#

that will decompile bytecode generated by Kotlin to Java code

#

also, someone help with plugins pls

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:11 PM

#

also

#

quick question

#

is server -> client = clientbound or serverbound? 😂

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

we've been over this

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

clientbound -> client

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

ik

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

which direction does the arrow point to

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

but i forgot

forest pecan Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

serverbound -> server

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

what does the arrow point to

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

jovial warren which direction does the arrow point to

so clientbound

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

does it point to the client or the server?

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

client

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

well then it's clientbound

#

because it's bound to the client

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:12 PM

#

alr

#

thx

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:13 PM

#

also, someone help with plugins pls

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:13 PM

#

?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:13 PM

#

I wanna have a Plugin class, but no idea how to DI the server, folder and logger without loading the plugin within the API

#

and anyone who thinks I should use annotations, here's the door: 🚪

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:14 PM

#

static 🙂

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 8:15 PM

#

Use the door

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:15 PM

#

ocean quartz Use the door

ok

#

🚪

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:15 PM

#

dkim leave

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:15 PM

#

👋

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:15 PM

#

thank fuck for that

#

about time

#

xD

#

I'm messing ofc lol

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 8:16 PM

#

You don't like the idea of requiring the plugin to have the server in the constructor?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:16 PM

#

ocean quartz You don't like the idea of requiring the plugin to have the server in the constr...

that's a shout

#

but that looks a bit ugly and increases boilerplate, especially if you have to DI the server, folder and logger every. god. damn. time you make a plugin

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:18 PM

#

plugin doesnt need a logger

#

leave that up to the caller

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:18 PM

#

I want plugins to be able to log things

half harness Mar 8, 2021, 8:18 PM

#

why not like Bukkit.getLogger()

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:18 PM

#

just like in Bukkit, Bungee, Sponge, Velocity, just about any Minecraft API

#

https://github.com/SpigotMC/BungeeCord/blob/master/api/src/main/java/net/md_5/bungee/api/plugin/Plugin.java#L100 this is how Bungee does it (basically just copy and pasted from Bukkit)

#

but this logger will use SLF4J instead of Java's built-in logger, because SLF4J superior

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:20 PM

#

prisma wave leave that up to the caller

^

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

wdym the caller?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

each plugin

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

I think I misinterpreted you

#

ah right

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

to decide what logger they use and how they obtain it

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

prisma wave each plugin

not the best idea

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

so they can choose whether to DI that or not?

#

ah right

#

so by using LoggerFactory.getLogger themselves or what?

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

you should definitely include some predefined way to get a logger

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:21 PM

#

you probably dont need to inject it at all

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:22 PM

#

lunar cypress you should definitely include some predefined way to get a logger

yeah that's what I was thinking

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:23 PM

#

yeah just make a property with a default value

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:23 PM

#

also is it just me or can md_5 not code

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:23 PM

#

md_5 is dumb

#

uses lombok

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:23 PM

#

allman, if ( statement ), Lombok

#

wtf

#

thinks Gradle is bad because it's imperative (which is kinda BS)

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:24 PM

#

allman good

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:24 PM

#

wait what

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:24 PM

#

jovial warren thinks Gradle is bad because it's imperative (which is kinda BS)

huh?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:25 PM

#

he said this once:

Imperative vs Declarative
A build system should be the latter, therefore Maven wins

Also Maven is almost always faster at actually building than Gradle

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:26 PM

#

A build system should be the latter, therefore Maven wins
I mean gradle is declarative

#

Also Maven is almost always faster at actually building than Gradle
this is just plain wrong lol

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:26 PM

#

md_5 has about 3 brain cells on a good day

#

https://www.spigotmc.org/threads/gradle-vs-maven.370756/ here it is

SpigotMC - High Performance Minecraft

Gradle vs. Maven

So it seems like alot of you seem to like maven, I am guessing from the simple markup with XML. Yet to me it seems like gradle is alot easier and...

#

(Also Gradle is almost invariably slower at actually building).

This was his actual quote

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:27 PM

#

Source(s): Dude trust me

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:27 PM

#

gotta love the wise potato lol

#

"It came from @md_5 ... that's enough of a benchmark. "

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:28 PM

#

I'm still pondering at "Gradle is imperative"

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:28 PM

#

prisma wave yeah just make a property with a default value

e.g.?

#

val logger = LoggerFactory.getLogger(SomeClass::class.java)?

ocean quartz Mar 8, 2021, 8:29 PM

#

jovial warren gotta love the wise potato lol

I am pretty sure that comment is sarcasm

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:29 PM

#

jovial warren `val logger = LoggerFactory.getLogger(SomeClass::class.java)`?

maybe

#

Probably there is that you can't override it with a different logger type if you want

#

But I guess with slf4j that's not an issue

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:32 PM

#

prisma wave Probably there is that you can't override it with a different logger type if you...

https://tenor.com/uhfw.gif

Tenor

nick young

▶ Play video

#

that sentence made no sense to me lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:34 PM

#

override val logger = java.logging.Logger.blah

#

doesnt work

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:34 PM

#

that won't work anyway

#

since this is an abstract class and this property isn't open

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:35 PM

#

then make it open

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:35 PM

#

why?

#

also, you can't override SLF4J loggers with java.util.logging loggers can you?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:36 PM

#

no exactly

#

But you could override it with a different slf4j logger perhaps

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:36 PM

#

also, I'm still trying to think of what I should supply to this getLogger call

#

maybe the name of the plugin rather than the class?

#

though it would really make people who name their main class Main look like a mug if I used the class lol

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

are you gonna require a plugin.yml

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

I want to use something like that yeah

#

the only other option really is annotations

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

reflection

#

maybe

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

and I like having a plugin.toml file anyway

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

yea true

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:38 PM

#

or should I use YAML

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

mmmmmmm toml

#

I wanna use toml more

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

toml is fine probably

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

but server owners dont like things that aren't yaml

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

TOML is really really bad for nested structures though

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

sadge

#

well yeah

#

it has no treees

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

#

yeah

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

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true true

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

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that's kinda the point

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:39 PM

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i mean yaml is used by basically everyone in mc stuff

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might want to keep it consistent

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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meh

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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plugin.elon

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plugin.edn

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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just use clojure and toml ;)

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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could call it plugin.yml, or krypton.yml lol

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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lein new plugin

stuck harbor Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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mmmhm

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good

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I still haven't got clojure <-> java interop down

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:40 PM

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gonna loosely base this off of Bukkit's plugin.yml, with commands and permissions being optional though

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:41 PM

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its not krypton

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its a plugin

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:41 PM

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true

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:41 PM

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if you want kyrpton in there do krypton-plugin.extension

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:42 PM

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nah I'm just gonna stick with plugin.yml

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:42 PM

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plugin.korm

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:43 PM

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I've just thought about the fact that I haven't even implemented the reflective loading logic yet lol

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🥲

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:43 PM

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shouldn't be too hard

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:43 PM

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surreal quarry shouldn't be too hard

3 weeks later

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:43 PM

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lol

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org.reflections:reflections:0.9.12 might make it easier

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i used that earlier today to register commands for a plugin lmao

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:44 PM

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you know, contrary to its name, reflections isn't a reflection library

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it's a classpath scanner

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:44 PM

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we know

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:44 PM

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yea yea yea

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it works for what you need to do though

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:46 PM

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also, how should I register plugin perms?

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I could just steal the perms stuff from Bukkit I guess

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although, do permissions really need to be registered as such?

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I mean, Bukkit's purpose of registering perms is just for retrieval by other plugins

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and descriptions/default values

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and heirachies

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:48 PM

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you could make permissions plugins implement an interface/class like vault does
you could use bukkits thing
you could say fuck everyone and require luckperms as a dependency, then expose its API through krypton's api

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:48 PM

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lol

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I think I'd rather option 2 tbh, would probably be easiest

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:49 PM

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yea probably

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:49 PM

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or just say fuck permission registering entirely, which is option 4

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I think option 2 is the best though, so option 2 it is

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I mean, I can always use Bukkit's loader as a reference lol

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~~a.k.a steal it~~

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:50 PM

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if you do option 4, you make all plugins have to depend on every major permissions plugin and implement each one

lunar cypress Mar 8, 2021, 8:51 PM

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stuck harbor I still haven't got clojure <-> java interop down

what r u struggling with?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:51 PM

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yeah that's not what I mean by not registering permissions lol

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:51 PM

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oh

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:52 PM

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as I said before, Bukkit's entire use for registering permissions is just for retrieval by other plugins

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and /help

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that's it

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also, @prisma wave, here's one for ya

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:52 PM

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are you talking about registering them as in like plugin.yml permissions

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:52 PM

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how should I handle the plugin.yml descriptor?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:52 PM

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what

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:52 PM

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I want to have the logger's name be the name of the plugin btw, rather than the class name

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but anyway, I want to expose the descriptor to plugins

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like Bukkit does

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:53 PM

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the what

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:53 PM

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basically the object that represents the plugin's plugin.yml file

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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oh like plugindescriptionfile

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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https://hub.spigotmc.org/stash/projects/SPIGOT/repos/bukkit/browse/src/main/java/org/bukkit/plugin/PluginDescriptionFile.java this guy

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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right

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ez

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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go for it reflection master

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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dont need reflection for this

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mostly

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:54 PM

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he says

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xD

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:55 PM

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plugin interface defines an abstract val, "JavaPlugin" equivalent overrides it with the actual value

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you could just pass it through the constructor

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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and which one exactly is inherited from?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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which one do you inherit from to make a plugin?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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oh

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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as your main class

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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the javaplugin equivalent

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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so basically just Bukkit

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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this is actually one of the few bits of bukkit that i think is quite nicely designed

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:56 PM

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then we run into the same issue

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:57 PM

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which is?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:57 PM

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init

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https://hub.spigotmc.org/stash/projects/SPIGOT/repos/bukkit/browse/src/main/java/org/bukkit/plugin/java/JavaPlugin.java#271

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:57 PM

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just use a constructor

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:57 PM

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https://tenor.com/7dGu.gif

Tenor

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:58 PM

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prisma wave just use a constructor

but then we run into an issue here

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:58 PM

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Which is?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:59 PM

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because plugins inherit from this, they have to call the constructor

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 8:59 PM

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and?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 8:59 PM

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how can I have them not have to provide all the shit I do?

surreal quarry Mar 8, 2021, 8:59 PM

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can they add the same things to their constructor

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class MyPlugin(private val server: Server) : JavaPlugin(server)```

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idk if that works

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i feel like it might

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:00 PM

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that was what Matt suggested, but that gets messy when you have to DI the data folder, server and plugin description file

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for every plugin

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also, you suggesting I use a secondary constructor with lateinit properties BM?

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 9:02 PM

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absolutely not

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:03 PM

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e.g. ```kotlin
abstract class JavaPlugin() {

lateinit var server: Server
    private set

lateinit var folder: File
    private set

lateinit var description: PluginDescription
    private set

constructor(server: Server, folder: File, description: PluginDescription) : this() {
    this.server = server
    this.folder = folder
    this.description = description
}

}

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 9:04 PM

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Horrendous

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:04 PM

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that is disgusting

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what be yer idea matey?

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 9:05 PM

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Why is it a open class?

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Make it an abstract class

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:05 PM

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alrighty

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anyway, better idea = ?

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 9:05 PM

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You're looking for a replacement for something like JavaPlugin right?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:06 PM

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I was just deciding if init is a good idea or not

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 9:06 PM

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for what exactly?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:06 PM

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initialising the plugin

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injecting the server, data folder and plugin description file

old wyvern Mar 8, 2021, 9:07 PM

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Id suggest having delegates that provide them

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:07 PM

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example?

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:09 PM

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prisma wave plugin interface defines an abstract val, "JavaPlugin" equivalent overrides it w...

also isn't this just kinda useless? what's the point in having a Plugin interface?

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Plugin might as well just be a single abstract class

prisma wave Mar 8, 2021, 9:10 PM

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other implementations

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might not be necessary now

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but you can decouple the messy JP logic and the interface

jovial warren Mar 8, 2021, 9:11 PM

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true