dev-general

[brazen ether]

in which case, basically no program is "correct"

[steel heart]

thats very true and good point

[brazen ether]

but using the more colloquial meaning of "good", "objected oriented" is good for some types of programs but not all, and is at times clearly antithetical to your goal (performance for example)

[steel heart]

u can kinda prove partly correctness (ofc depending on how u define it) w unit testing, integration testing etc i suppose

[brazen ether]

no you cant

testing is by definition, not a proof of correctness

[steel heart]

depending on how u define it

[brazen ether]

unless you cover all possible branches, which no one does

if such is even possible

[brazen ether]

well there's no useful definition of "correctness" which can be proven with tests

but anyway imo the answer to the question is "it depends"

[steel heart]

sometimes, knowing that a program isnt behaving incorrectly can be useful in whatever domain u care about

[brazen ether]

OOP is a strategy to achieve a goal

[steel heart]

yea

[brazen ether]

tests cannot prove correctness

that's what I'm saying

no non trivial program can be proven correct with a reasonable # of tests

[steel heart]

yea no, u can say that ur program is behaving correct to some degree/partly, depending on what terms n definitions of ur domain u work w

[brazen ether]

sometimes it's a good strategy, but I think it's an oversimplification and it's not completely necessary. if developers were smarter then we would need it less

[steel heart]

but yes absolutely

[brazen ether]

I'm very strict with the word "prove" which is why I called out your statement

[steel heart]

thats fair, prove might be the wrong linguistical term in that sentence

[brazen ether]

obviously if everyone was infinitely intelligent with infinite time, there would be only 1 correct programming paradigm

but we use paradigms as shortcuts to good programs

so just choose your shortcuts depending on your domain

OOP just happens to be very easy to mess up, just like everything

[steel heart]

thats interesting on itws own, do u think that if we had infinite capacity to infinite intelligence and given an infinite capacity for time, there would only be 1 correct programming paradigm?

[brazen ether]

that's exactly what I said

well

given that everyone had the same requirements and everything

[steel heart]

there could be multiple, even if we had access to such resources

[steel heart]

oh ye

[brazen ether]

what I mean to say is that if everyone was very smart and optimal, we would all just think of our programs from first principles rather than trying to apply patterns to it

all our reasons for why a program is written the way it is would come from objective metrics like readability (objective because the population of readers is assumed to be specified) and performance

there would be no such thing as "this is good/bad because it does/doesn't align with X paradigm"

but that's much too difficult/impossible to do because we have things like deadlines and mistakes

the concept of OOP to write a good program is in of itself a lossy abstraction over the path to writing a good program

assuming that you're given some objective metrics for what a good program is

which you could do by studying developer performance and program performance

its kind of the same way that we often rely on moral platitudes to guide our behavior, but these are often lossy and break down in certain contexts ("murder is bad")

[steel heart]

ig yea, i mean i think there is a slight difference between design pattern contrary to the paradigm itself (even if a set of design patterns usually go hand in hand with some paradigms), i would more see moral platitudes as those design patterns

[steel heart]

i like the way u said this a lot, partially extending it to other paradigms also but yea, given an objective metric

[cinder flare]

thx for this, on my way to murder some peeps

[crude cloud]

man thats a lotta messages i aint reading

but i disagree wholeheartedly

[sweet cipher]

Skript is the only correct language, that should answer your question

[steel heart]

D:

[potent nest]

I don’t even have enough context to know which paradigm is magically "correct" apparently

[wind patio]

I would say this doesn't really apply for modern OOP

and obviously you can write "incorrect" functional code as well

[brazen ether]

when dijkstra says 'correct' he means that it's proven that for all inputs the program will return a valid output

so he means it in a mathematically rigorous way

but I don't agree with it either way

[potent nest]

Why would he say something that stupid

[brazen ether]

honestly I'm not sure

it just sounds inflammatory

there's more nuance to it than that

[potent nest]

There are oop programs proven to be correct and there are buggy functional programs

[steel heart]

What does modern OOP mean to you contrary to just OOP or whatever OOP “used to be”? and yea don’t think he was necessarily talking about FP as an alternative although that was probably a strong reference point (could be wrong), for example we have logical programming

[wind patio]

it’s hard to compare directly since I wasn’t around when OOP became "a thing", but paradigms evolve, so, even if the criticism was valid at the time, it may not fully apply today

philosophically, I would say "classic" OOP treated programs more as a society of message-passing objects, "modern" OOP, imo, tends to emphasize explicit data and transformations, with objects used mainly to guard boundaries

[steel heart]

Yea completely fair, I mean I don’t think there exist many modern programs today that explicitly only use OOP to solve problems and deliver solutions so I’m with you

[ocean quartz]

People think too much about which paradigm is correct and which one isn't, we just want to make cool shit, doesn't matter the language or the paradigm
There is no right and wrong

[crude cloud]

my favourite paradigm is "just sit down and write code that works" programming

[ocean quartz]

Based

[nocturne apex]

tru

[pastel imp]

what about those times you saw some of my code and went through 5 stages of depression?

[ocean quartz]

Same would have happened if the code wasn't OOP

[pastel imp]

fair point

[wind patio]

I saw code in my new workplace and I went through 10 stages of depression

few of the apps that "we" maintain is just public static

no DI, no SRP, no nothing

[ocean quartz]

They were just trying to skip the O in OOP

[wind patio]

I would say that my code that I wrote back in uni wasn't even that bad

and yet those apps are used in production, for a bank

    /*
     *
     */
    @SuppressWarnings("unchecked")
    @RequestMapping(path = "/countall", produces = "application/json", method = RequestMethod.GET)
    public ResponseEntity<Map<String,CaseFolderCount>> CountAllCases() {
        return new ResponseEntity<>((Map<String,CaseFolderCount>)handler.TaskSynchronizer(null,3),HttpStatus.OK);
    }
---
    /**
     * Synchronizing the calls so that only 1 can be run at a time
     * 
     * @param input
     *            optional input
     * @param index
     *            what method to call
     * @return response depending on method
     */
    @SuppressWarnings("unchecked")
    public synchronized Object TaskSynchronizer(Object input, int index) {
        switch (index) {
        case 0:
            return RemoveCases();
        case 1:
            return Query();
        case 2:
            return QueryIDs((Map<String,IDQueryInput>) input);
        case 3:
            return CountAll();
        case 4:
            return testEndpoints();
        default:
            return null;
        }
    }

amazing

or, another one

public class SolutionSetting {

    String _solutionName = "";
    String _folderName = "";
    String _sql = "";
    String _additionalParams = "";
    String _dateParam="";
    @JsonIgnore
    String customSQL="";
    int _caseAgelimit = 0;
    @JsonIgnore
    String objectStoreName = "";
    @JsonIgnore
    String connectionPointName="";

    public SolutionSetting(String... o) {
        switch (o.length) {
        case 7:
            _additionalParams = o[6];            
        case 6:
            _dateParam = o[5];            
        case 5:
            _caseAgelimit = Integer.parseInt(o[4]);
        case 4:
            connectionPointName = o[3];
        case 3:
            objectStoreName = o[2];
        case 2:
            _folderName = o[1];
        case 1:
            _solutionName = o[0];
            break;
        default:
            _folderName = "Folder";
            objectStoreName = "TOS";
            _caseAgelimit = 365;
        }

        // _solutionName=(o.length>0)? o[0]:"";
        // _folderName=(o.length>1)? o[1]:"Folder";
        // objectStoreName=(o.length>2)? o[2]:"TOS";
        // _caseAgelimit=(o.length>3)?Integer.parseInt( o[3]):365;
        // _aditionalParams=(o.length>4)? o[4]:"";

        _sql = "SELECT TOP 5000 [this], * FROM [" + _folderName + "] WHERE ["+_dateParam+"] <" + " Now() - TimeSpan("
                + _caseAgelimit + ", 'days') AND [CmAcmCaseState] = 3 " + _additionalParams;
        customSQL = "SELECT TOP 5000 [this], * FROM [" + _folderName + "] WHERE ";
    }

   // ...
}

and that above is being created like this:

    public void setSettingsMap(String settingsMap) {
        this.settingsMap = (Map<String, SolutionSetting>) Arrays.asList
                (settingsMap.split(",")).stream().map(s -> s.split(":")).collect(
                        HashMap<String, SolutionSetting>::new, 
                        (m, c) -> m.put(c[0],new SolutionSetting(c)),
                        (m, u) -> {}
                        );
    }

||sorry for big spam btw||

[crude cloud]

to be fair systems used in banking are one of those huge "if it works seriously do not touch it" systems; get shit done, it works? let it work

[prisma wave]

we can prevent this being necessary by using safer languages

it's only like that because refactoring in impure languages is very fragile

[crude cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-edit-i-saw-what-you-edited-i-saw-gif-27672816

[prisma wave]

[pastel imp]

Isn't OOP/Java technically already safe?

What other language would be considered safer?

[prisma wave]

certainly not

arguably any language with runtime errors is unsafe

[pastel imp]

Fair point

[crude cloud]

define "runtime errors"

[pastel imp]

So what are the alternatives?

[prisma wave]

idk

i dont think there is a perfect language

[crude cloud]

there is it's called Esperanto

[pastel imp]

I'd assume he is speaking about exceptions which can be catched anyways

[prisma wave]

but i think languages like Dafny are quite appealing in the finance industry because you're able to formally verify the correctness of everything within the language

[wind patio]

I agree with it to a certain degree, but why write such hardly maintanable and understandable code in the first place? If it ever needs to be changed/updated, what the fuck do I do with this black magic fuckery lol

I change this single part and the whole app falls apart

[prisma wave]

wonderful

[crude cloud]

idk just ask chatgpt

[wind patio]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-moly-gif-2379897567703251318

[steel heart]

dafny is so based

[brazen ether]

the issue is that they're too cumbersome for most developers to use

most developers don't think that much

[prisma wave]

yes, the age old issue

[lavish notch]

A lot of the finance use third party vendors for software. 😄

[prisma wave]

that has the same issue

[potent nest]

we should only write code in lean

[prisma wave]

small problem with that https://x.com/ElliotGlazer/status/2001062680476705283?s=20

Elliot Glazer (@ElliotGlazer)

Yeah ok here is Mario straight up proving "False" in Lean a few months ago. Absolute mad lad

X · Dec 16, 2025, 10:51 PM

[brazen ether]

I'm gonna be honest I have no idea what's going on

like not even a little

I know basic lean syntax but I am still beyond confused

[prisma wave]

me neither

i just know it's not very good

[potent nest]

incredible how even an extremely small core is hard to maintain

[wind patio]

what the fuck am I looking at lmao

[prisma wave]

i have no idea

but it's proving that false = true

which is obviously bad

i.e. it's a bug in lean

lean is a proof assistant that aims to mathematically prove correctness of programs

[wind patio]

ah yes

[crude cloud]

you cannot trust lean for anything then it's so broken

[prisma wave]

true

[brazen ether]

that's not what happened here

not exactly sure what's happening in this specific example but it's a reference to something else where some platform function was being trusted when it shouldn't have been

Lean is extremely popular and has had many many hours of work put into it and is used by many mathematicians

[prisma wave]

let me ask grok

[brazen ether]

obviously it's not completely broken

[prisma wave]

bro fell for the ragebait

[brazen ether]

I'm too autistic for this

[crude cloud]

idk man that just shows it's broken

rather not trust it

the geminis says it's true

[brazen ether]

I hate you guys

[crude cloud]

i hate you toooo 🥺

[nocturne apex]

guys that's so cute

[brazen ether]

hilarious message

[vast basin]

yo whats up guys, does anyone have any idea why phantoms might not be attacking anybody on my server? gamerule doinsomnia is set to true and all, they're just not targetting players for some reason

[tiny portal]

i still wanna do this :>

[tiny portal]

whats that

[brazen ether]

object oriented programming

its a paradigm for how to write code

[tiny portal]

any example of it?

[brazen ether]

almost all java code ever

OOP is about having objects perform actions

as in, you treat objects as actors who can do things to themselves or to other objects

if you ever want to do programming as a career, it's probably something you need to learn (whether you agree with it or not)

a lot of OOP principles that you find online aren't unique to OOP

like polymorphism

private mutable state is also an important part of OOP

its really just about trying to model your program as a bunch of objects that do things to each other

rather than having a clear separation between logic and data

[tiny portal]

in java, i got a question,
What is float primarily used for, since i know double is like decimal like 1.0 and int is a complete so like 1, but what is exactly float.

[brazen ether]

its a lower precision double

doubles have 64 bits to store numbers

floats have 32

so doubles can store 2^32 more numbers, giving them much higher precision

you should probably take a programming course to learn these basics

[brazen ether]

confusingly java calls them "double" and "float" when they're both floating point numbers

double = double precision floating point number

other superior language (zig ahem) use things like f32 or f64 which tells you immediately how many bits that floating number is

[tiny portal]

are floats & doubles signed bits or unsigned

[brazen ether]

floating point numbers are always signed

[brazen ether]

there is no such thing as a "signed or unsigned bit"

the bits are all the same

its just how the program interprets them

the same bits could be interpreted as an unsigned or a signed integer, and you would get different values

java unfortunately doesn't let you have unsigned integers supported at the compiler level

[tiny portal]

i've heard c# and java are close, Syntax is like "similiar" so if i like learn Java i have also a very good chance of learning c#?

[brazen ether]

I haven't used c# in years

so I don't know

but most of the time, learning the language is not the hard part

java and c# are definitely quite similar

[prisma wave]

truth nuke

but yeah they are pretty similar

[brazen ether]

unless you're going from like

[prisma wave]

c# just has more fancy features which could be confusing coming from java

[brazen ether]

c -> haskell

or lisp

or any like paradigmy language like that

[prisma wave]

theyre signed in that they allow negative numbers

but they dont use twos compliment so it's not really "signed" per-se

[brazen ether]

there is no way he knows what twos complement is

[prisma wave]

my hot take is that all imperative languages are the same and if you know one you know them all

[brazen ether]

this is relatively accurate

if you don't know pointers they might be confusing

but if you're like, a good java dev, then you already know pointers

[prisma wave]

yeah

[brazen ether]

manual memory management vs gc'd is a bigger jump

but also like, not as hard as people make it out to be

[tiny portal]

isnt it like the way computers understand negative numbers?

[prisma wave]

ye

but dw about it

[brazen ether]

yeah, negative integers

[prisma wave]

it's not really super important to know as a dev

[brazen ether]

but you don't ever need to worry about it unless you're doing something extremely low level

[prisma wave]

yeah which is orthogonal to the language really (i admit this is a slightly "umm actually" point)

[brazen ether]

mmm i think depends what youre including in there

[prisma wave]

programming paradigm i suppose

[tiny portal]

i was learning like enums yesterday

[brazen ether]

hard to say that memory management strategy is orthogonal to java

you can do manual memory management in java

just like you can eat wood

[prisma wave]

but if i made a language identical to java but with manual memory management (i.e. C with some syntax sugar) then you'd be able to pick it up easily, apart from learning the memory management part

[brazen ether]

yeah i was wondering if that's what you meant

that's true

[prisma wave]

compared to say learning a completely different paradigm which is an entirely different way of thinking

[tiny portal]

are enums important or can i skip it?

[prisma wave]

they are

[brazen ether]

they're extremely important

[prisma wave]

you probably shouldnt skip anything

[brazen ether]

^

[tiny portal]

any way to get better at java? Like making forks of things or creating things?

[brazen ether]

write your own projects

make things happen

don't worry about other people's code too much

[prisma wave]

if youre learning for plugins then maybe try some of these https://github.com/PiggyPiglet/Challenges

[brazen ether]

write your own things and note down what you struggle with, what issues you come across, and figure out how to solve them

[brazen ether]

#3 in section 2 is hilarious

[pastel imp]

what's the talk here

[brazen ether]

learning java

[pastel imp]

uh maybe I read it after my game

[brazen ether]

@tiny portal don't get dependent on other people telling you what projects to work on though

you're never gonna get very good at anything if you depend on others for those sorts of things

[tiny portal]

is it better to hardcode some things or to make it configurable ej:

List<String> lore = getConfig().getStringList("lore");

thanks for the info

[prisma wave]

configurable is probably good practice

[brazen ether]

@prisma wave by the way i've come around on the DI thing

[prisma wave]

DI?

[brazen ether]

it absolutely is so valuable when working on larger projects

[prisma wave]

as in dependency injection?

[brazen ether]

dependency injection

yes

[prisma wave]

i didnt realise u were against it haha

but yeah it's goated

[brazen ether]

i wasn't

i just didn't think it was necessary

and that doing it even when not strictly necessary is useless

[prisma wave]

nah it's sooo good

[brazen ether]

but you don't realize you need it until you do

[prisma wave]

in big projects

i love not having to worry about instantiating

[brazen ether]

yeah i've been just implementing more testing and battle stuff and it completely invalidates my earlier notions that the static stuff i had was gonna work

it's definitely something that should be the default

[prisma wave]

i really like guice as a DI framework

would recommend trying it out if you get the chance

[prisma wave]

oh boy brother

[prisma wave]

once you get used to it it moves into the background really nicely

[brazen ether]

i almost certainly will

i think i have like

the perfect usecase for it

[wind patio]

buh guice is so nice

[pastel imp]

I have heard of guice a lot

but never used it

[wind patio]

you're missing out

[pastel imp]

think I only used Dagger? like once

idk if it's worth adapting projects like Runway to it.

I don't think Runway really relies a lot on DI for it to be a noticeable change

[wind patio]

I have things like@Command , @Listener, @Config , I pick them up via Reflections and then just guice em up, then I can just use any Service/Repo or other guice managed classes whenever/wherever I need

[prisma wave]

dagger is basically guice but compile time

theyre quite similar

[pastel imp]

is guice not compile time?

[prisma wave]

nope

runtime

with classgen

[wind patio]

you certainly won't get any compilation errors if you do things like circular dependencies

[pastel imp]

eh

I personally feel like compile time like dagger is better no?

xD

[prisma wave]

it's pros and cons

guice is much more flexible

[wind patio]

it's always pros and cons

[prisma wave]

and doesnt need as much hand holding

[pastel imp]

in what way

tbf I am a bit lost as I have no point of reference to what we are talking btw

I have no clue how I'd implement guice/dagger in Runway for ex.

[wind patio]

does dagger have dynamic bindings? @prisma wave

[prisma wave]

i dont know ive not used it much

i assume no

[prisma wave]

well i think dagger is inherently a bit more verbose for one thing

[wind patio]

well, in terms of flexibility, dynamic bindings is one thing that guice has (and IIRC dagger doesn't), for ex.:

@Provides
EconomyService provideEconomy(Plugin plugin) {
    if (Bukkit.getPluginManager().isPluginEnabled("Vault")) {
        return new VaultEconomy();
    }
    return new DummyEconomy();
}

[prisma wave]

oh i think that's fine?

idk though

[pastel imp]

https://github.com/xMrAfonso/Runway/tree/v2/src do ya think this would benefit from using a DI framework? feel like it's a bit overkill xD

[wind patio]

so for ex. if your plugin behaviour needs to change based on the config, I don't think you can really achieve that using dagger (I might be wrong though)

because everything happens compile-time

[prisma wave]

probably overkill for a project of this size

[pastel imp]

yeah that's what I was thinking

xD

[prisma wave]

the provisioning is but the actual instantiation is still done at runtime

[pastel imp]

on another note

I really need to figure out better naming/folder organization

feel like the current one kinda sucks

lol

[wind patio]

guice 🙏

[wind patio]

do you feel it sucks because others might think it does or do you find it difficult to navigate through your project

[pastel imp]

bit of both? I am trying to make my code "contributable"

[wind patio]

buh wuddahelly is this

unacceptable

[prisma wave]

skull emoji

easiest way to force a good structure is try and unit test everything

it'll expose lots of flaws

because it'll be extremely hard to test some parts

[wind patio]

unit tests? in this economy?

[prisma wave]

real ones still do it

[wind patio]

I just let the end users test it

saves a lot of time

a bug MAY or MAY NOT exist, if I write a test and it does not exist then I'm just wasting my time 😎

[prisma wave]

die!

[pastel imp]

still WIP on that side xd

[pastel imp]

well that's actually my goal, I have unit testing set up

kotest and kover setup

xD

together with mockbukkit

problem is some stuff is really hard to unit test due to MC limitations

for instance, almost impossible to test if a packet was modified correctly since mockbukkit doesn't support nms

[wind patio]

time to write your own test framework

[prisma wave]

yeah thats not really possible without an abstraction layer over the packet data

[brazen ether]

https://www.brightnetwork.co.uk/graduate-jobs/lmax-group/junior-software-developer-java-london-2026

"we don't do pull requests, we push directly"

"revert first, ask questions later" 😭

[prisma wave]

crazy

[pastel imp]

well already added that with PE

there is only a way to test sending packets

but no way to check if they are modified

ACTUALLY, maybe....

I just can't unit test the listener classes themselves

[ocean quartz]

We test on prod in this house

[pastel imp]

is that why mcci was down last time I tried to join?

[pastel imp]

due to that, sadly won't be able to reach 100% coverage

[ocean quartz]

Actually if you are talking about the week before last then yeah kinda lmao

[pastel imp]

lmao

nowcrew should hire me

I will write unit tests for it all

trust

[pastel imp]

nha I am actually depressed now, won't be able to reach 100% coverage :/

[prisma wave]

you defo could

with mocks and stuff

[ocean quartz]

Issue was that we we-wrote the entirety of the matchmaking system and testing with 20 to 30 players wasn't enough to cause any issues, it all came from having hundreds 😔

[abstract osprey]

suffering from success

@prisma wave i think you'd really benefit from DI (as you mentioned) and maybe some sort of service lifecycle system :) in runway, that is

[prisma wave]

me?

[abstract osprey]

fuck

was it afonso

[prisma wave]

im already DI-pilled broski

[abstract osprey]

HI @pastel imp

apologies brister

[prisma wave]

all g

i am interested in the convo

[abstract osprey]

i'm a huge fan of https://github.com/GrowlyX/flavor because of its DI and lifecycle management

much better than guice DI imo etc

[prisma wave]

yeah i need to learn about the service stuff

ive never really touched it but heard good things

is there a java equivalent

[abstract osprey]

uh

i can open source my java port if you want

[prisma wave]

that'd be cool

[abstract osprey]

Sure, it's all local rn but I'll push it in the morning (almost midnight and I'm on mobile kek)
want me to give you a ping when it's done?

[wind patio]

what service stuff?

also you can use my shitty DI lib https://github.com/M0diis/m0jDI

😎

[abstract osprey]

i think just a general service pattern implementation

[wind patio]

isnt that just springboot 1o1?

[prisma wave]

sure thing broski

[prisma wave]

spring is too ginormous

[abstract osprey]

in the library i linked it just does a class path scan to look for classes appended with @Service and calls a certain method

the underlying principle is identical to spring yes

[prisma wave]

hmm

[wind patio]

thats why you need to use my crappy DI lib

[prisma wave]

i think i will stick with guice for now sorry

[wind patio]

😵

[cerulean ibex]

yes

i was trying to make a programmatic mc client to solve this issue

[prisma wave]

[cerulean ibex]

so u could run tests as the player rather than the server

[prisma wave]

i would die for that

especially if it could run headlessly

[cerulean ibex]

it was from scratch but you could also modify the client to run headlessly

i think there was a thing for that actually

[prisma wave]

so cool

[pastel imp]

not for the packet listeners, at least not on an easy way according to PE people

[pastel imp]

how so?

[pastel imp]

well... https://github.com/headlesshq/mc-runtime-test

cc @prisma wave

but seems to be only for CI

idk if you can use it programatically

[abstract osprey]

I lied

DI doesn't seem useful for your case

but a service pattern would be

[pastel imp]

bruh

I mean, I do use DI

[abstract osprey]

if you combined a service pattern with classpath scanning you get a very sexy looking main class

[pastel imp]

tbf main class WIP rn

lol

gonna split it up into methods for unit testing, etc.

[abstract osprey]

@Service
object VisibilityService {

    @Configure
    private fun configure() {
        Events.subscribe<PlayerReadyEvent>()
            .handler {
                val player = it.player
                player().playerListName(player.tabName)
                player().playerListOrder = player.weight
                BootstrappedData.visibilityProvider.updateVisibility(player)
            }

        Packets.subscribe<PacketPlaySendEvent>(PacketType.Play.Server.TAB_COMPLETE)
            .handler { event ->
                val recipient = PlayerService.getOrNull(event.user.uuid) ?: return@handler
                val packet = WrapperPlayServerTabComplete(event)
                packet.commandMatches.removeIf { match ->
                    val text = match.text
                    if (text.isNullOrBlank()) {
                        return@removeIf false
                    }
                    val player = PlayerService
                        .local()
                        .filter { it.status != PlayerStatus.HIDDEN && it.status != PlayerStatus.OFFLINE }
                        .firstOrNull { it.displayName.startsWith(text, true) } ?: return@removeIf false
                    !recipient.canSee(player)
                }
            }

        // etc but it's too long
    }

this is the combination of a service pattern + class path scanning + a nice wrapper for packet listening :D

[pastel imp]

it does look cool indeed

but I like independent classes in this case xD

I think I am fine with it

the one key issue is rlly just testing

if I can fully automate that then pog

[cerulean ibex]

what is the “service pattern” and how does this help with testing with all the coupling here

if this is supposed to be the service locator pattern then icl im not seeing it 😭

[cinder flare]

yeah they're talking more about IoC stuff, though that code block is basically not an example of that at all lol

that's just two listeners that are registered with static functions rather than how Bukkit normally does it lol

[quiet depot]

from a DI/scanning perspective I think all they're showing off is that VisibilityService is found on the classpath via scanning and then configure is called automatically

if you were to keep the bukkit style implements Listener there's no reason you couldn't scan for classes that implement that, then using ur di library automatically register them as listeners with bukkit

[wind patio]

that's basically what I have in one of my plugins lol

[quiet depot]

ye

it's the way to go

big rabbit hole

starts with listeners and commands

then just keeps going further

I made this cool thing with guice/gson/snakeyaml where u could annotate a record with @File("config.yml") and it'd automatically add an instance of that object to my guice injector it'd reflect the hard file

but like u get to the point where ur just remaking spring

especially when u start tryna do it for databases

[compact perch]

oh, the sweet siren song of custom config solutions. sounds pretty slick, honestly. you've built your own personal 'future pain delivery system' disguised as convenience.

just wait until snakeyaml decides your true boolean is actually the string "true" somewhere down the line. been there, got the config scars to prove it. and a YAML allergy. good stuff though!

[quiet depot]

'future pain delivery system'
the files is ok until ur making a million different serializers for different types to be able to perfectly represent the file as an object, mysql orm is just fucked tho

[wind patio]

true that

[quiet depot]

@compact perch clanker

[compact perch]

clanker? is that the sound your server rack makes when it finally gives up? might wanna check those fans, buddy.

[wind patio]

I finished the setup for Listeners and Command, then did all my MySQL/SQLite repositories, then did the same for all my "Manager/Service" classes, then for Placeholder class, then added DI for all the plugin APIs I use

[quiet depot]

I was just trying to have an object that'd automatically update for every data type, mysql, yaml, json etc

what do u do for the scanning

[wind patio]

annotated classes via reflections

[quiet depot]

ah

big

https://github.com/PiggyPiglet/DocDex/tree/master/common/src/main/java/me/piggypiglet/docdex/scanning there u go

best scanning library ever made

[wind patio]

so it is something like this, where

you have a domain, which is basically a "projection" of a state, not mutated directly

record Buh(int val) {}

then you have a reactive state layer

interface State<T> {
    T get();
    void set(T value);
    void subscribe(Consumer<T> listener);
}

storage adapter (yaml/mysql/whatever)

interface DataBackend<T> {
    T load();
    void save(T value);
    void watch(Consumer<T> onChange);
}

the backed state

class BackedState<T> implements State<T> {
    private T value;
    private final DataBackend<T> backend;
    private final List<Consumer<T>> listeners = new ArrayList<>();

    BackedState(DataBackend<T> backend) {
        this.backend = backend;
        this.value = backend.load();

        backend.watch(newValue -> {
            this.value = newValue;
            listeners.forEach(l -> l.accept(newValue));
        });
    }

    public T get() {
        return value;
    }

    public void set(T value) {
        this.value = value;
        backend.save(value);
        listeners.forEach(l -> l.accept(value));
    }

    public void subscribe(Consumer<T> listener) {
        listeners.add(listener);
    }
}

and in terms of guice/reflection

@BackedBy(type = YAML, path = "config.yml")
record Buh(int val) {}

then at startup you scan the annotations, pick a backend, create the state and bind it to guice

DataBackend<Buh> backend =
    new SomeBackendYamlMaybe<>(path, Buh.class);

State<PlayerConfig> state =
    new BackedState<>(backend);

bind(new TypeLiteral<State<Buh>>() {})
    .toInstance(state);

and then you can inject it anywhere?

@Inject State<Buh> config;

[wind patio]

ZIS Scanner as in ZipInputStreamScanner? 🫰

[quiet depot]

the objects were mutable

[wind patio]

mutable 😵

not on my watch

[quiet depot]

well

it depended on the project

[quiet depot]

but ye this is pretty much how it went

[quiet depot]

but yeah like org.reflections was just so fat

[wind patio]

buh 😳

[cinder flare]

@wind patio that mod looks so cool dude wtf

any chance you want to implement an NBT editor that's not straight dogshit

[wind patio]

oh it already has an nbt editor, forgot to show it lol

[cinder flare]

holy shit i think i need it

the chat windows and the nbt stuff are so sick

[wind patio]

it's still quite ass though

[cinder flare]

does the groovy scripts run like... serverside code?

[wind patio]

sadly no

not really possible

(afaik)

[cinder flare]

yeah that's what i was thinking

but clients can run like world.addParticle or whatever?

[wind patio]

yeah

I mean, you can place blocks too, but only client-side

[cinder flare]

i have not done fabric clientside mods lol so idk

seems sick though, thoughts on kts instead of groovy? lol

[wind patio]

someday ™

[cinder flare]

should be like, not that hard i'd think

idk maybe i gotta whip out the source code and get to work

[wind patio]

shouldn't be too difficult to reuse the editor

just choose which lang to run based on the ext

[prisma wave]

one of these is not like the other

[prisma wave]

I’ve been doing a similar thing but with annotation processors to generate the deserialisation

https://github.com/bristermitten/mittenlib/blob/master/annotation-processor/README.md

It’s a little unusual but I like it

Supports a lot more things but ive forgotten to document

It uses a file watcher to automatically reload whenever the config is edited

And while I’ve not done it yet I think I can use this to outperform gson and snakeyaml

[cinder flare]

i've been using this one but it has a really weird UI, and it's also not supported for 1.21.8 yet... https://modrinth.com/mod/nbt-editor lol

[wind patio]

I'll post the code on github at some point when I finish tidying things up, it's far from being done, especially the nbt editor lol

[cinder flare]

ah okay lol, super cool stuff though! i've been wanting a mod like that for more developer stuff but there's not a large market apparently

[wind patio]

I'm planning to port this
https://www.liteloader.com/mod/macros
to my mod as well

I remember using it back in the day lol

[cinder flare]

seems very cool, i've really been loving WoW macros, and this seems quite similar

[distant sun]

Cool mod @wind patio

[crude cloud]

mfw classpath scanning when service loading is a thing

[potent nest]

that's like searching for google on google

[abstract osprey]

^^ the event and packet wrappers were by no means correlating to service/di, was just there so it wasn't an empty class lmfao

[vocal trout]

My brain hurts reading that

[dapper pawn]

@sudden tundra dms sir.

[torpid bluff]

I want learn minecraft plugin development, anyone can suggest me how I can?

[prisma wave]

?learn-java

[compact perch]

FAQ Answer:

Online Courses:
Online courses are also great for learning java. Some websites that offer them are:

• Coursera - Free unless you want a certificate
• PluralSight - Great courses from what I've seen. Mostly Paid
• Udemy - Never used them myself but they seem to all or at least most be paid.
  My first ever course was one from Coursera. - I can say it was pretty good at introducing me to the programming world as a whole not just java.

Oracle Docs:
Oracle docs can help a lot at learning and understanding java:

• Start with this,
• Breeze through this (skipping stuff that doesn't seem relevant like bitwise operators),
• Hit this.
  They're the first three from this larger thing which you should definitely go through overall. But those three should be enough for slightly better understanding of what is happening here without feeling like a huge time sink.
  That one is a small part of this larger site wherein "Essential Java Classes" and "Collections" also have good useful stuff

Other services:
Some other cool services that will help you learn java are:

• SoloLearn
• W3Schools
• JetBrains Academy

As you can see there are plenty of good ways to learn as long as you're willing to invest the time. Have fun learning!

Requested by: bristermitten • learn-java

[torpid bluff]

Java is the minor problem, to learn minecraft plugin development it's better do with your hand other plugins like: decentholograms, essentialx, citizens. Or in another way?(sorry if english is bad I'm not good)

[brazen ether]

make your own plugins from scratch

and don't worry about making your code similar to other people's code

a lot of very popular plugins have very bad code

you have to learn it yourself

[fresh glade]

do your own plugins, other's people code is gonna confuse you more, and probably have more errors while trying.

[fresh glade]

now do a learn kotlin-

[abstract osprey]

my best word of advice is fuck around and find out

if you find tutorials help, watch someone like kody Simpson and then screw around on your own with what you learn

uninstall intellij's ai plugin as well tbh xD

and hell, anything you do doesn't have to be original

[torpid bluff]

I used sometimes AI to write code but there was a lot of things that don't work and I spend more time to code with AI then code by me

[brazen ether]

I don't recommend using AI while learning how to code

[torpid bluff]

(A question, if there are mistakes in my senteces plese correct me)

[brazen ether]

learning requires struggling with things that will eventually be easy for you, but if you use AI for them them then you will never learn how to solve problems that are too hard for AI

[torpid bluff]

A question for plugin development. How I can make the effect when in chat with your mouse pointer stay on a text and show text like a item tooltip

[fresh glade]

eh, i use TextComponents and HoverEvents, idk if theres another method to do it.

[torpid bluff]

thank you

[wind patio]

@cinder flare peep this

[crude cloud]

mfw debug stick

[wind patio]

real

I just found it annoying how I always have to carry it around

and it's only usable when held

[crude cloud]

i guess

[cinder flare]

oh shit, block editor is crazy

[crude cloud]

not that i would know, i don't play the game and when i did i was a terrible builder

[wind patio]

also had to redo the whole nbt editor system, cuz it was really scuffed and wasn't properly working on all items lmao
so I basically just cloned nbt editors code (MIT 🙏 ) and making changes from there

@cinder flare what is your biggest gripe about NBT Editor itself btw?

[cinder flare]

just the UI being real weird tbh, you have to like click on each button to see the property and stuff

and that it's not updated to 1.21.8 lol

ideally in my mind, you'd be able to press a key, open a fullscreen window that shows you all the nbt properties at a glance, and allows you to easily edit them/add more/delete

[wind patio]

oh im doing 1.21.4 rn lmao, not sure why tbh, I could have went with 1.21.8

[cinder flare]

get with the times! the server i work on finally updated at the beginning of this month from 1.21.1 to 1.21.8 lol

[wind patio]

yeah I'll update it at some point ™

[wind patio]

there you go

oh and you can properly do things like place blocks on server-side now

[pastel imp]

W

[torpid bluff]

What is this?

[wind patio]

this is a mod I'm working on, showcased here
#showcase message

and that is in-game Groovy/Kotlin scripting

[cinder flare]

oh shit!

[wind patio]

you basically write code that interacts with the game

[cinder flare]

okay now make a well-optimized kts script runner for scripting dungeons so that i can iterate instead of restaring the entire server to update a plugin jar

[wind patio]

😭

[cinder flare]

and also teach me how to make a Bookshelf with custom books in it in the world, because I could not get that working for the life of me lol

i think it's like BlockMeta something? but it just never happened when I did it? and i got sick of waiting 5 minutes between debug attempts

[wind patio]

yeah I dont know that either lol

[cinder flare]

i don't get how it can be so hard lol, surely structures and stuff do that? or maybe they do it like, serialized as structures with loot tables

[wind patio]

you are talking about the "new" bookshelf you can place enchanted books in, right?

[pastel imp]

isn't hot reloading plugins a thing?

[cinder flare]

yea and normal books

[pastel imp]

or whatever it is called

[cinder flare]

well not on a remote server lol, but allegedly yes

though it still kinda sucks, you can only change the body of methods, you can't add or delete methods, or change classes or anything

[pastel imp]

eh still fine for most cases

debugging

I should probably set that up ngl

[wind patio]

surely its one of these you need

Interface ChiseledBookshelf
All Superinterfaces:
BlockInventoryHolder, BlockState, InventoryHolder, Metadatable, PersistentDataHolder, PersistentDataViewHolder, TileState, TileStateInventoryHolder

[cinder flare]

was trying to do a puzzle for a dungeon that would spread generated books around between a bunch of bookshelves, and i could just not get it to place in the world lol

[pastel imp]

but rn I am suffering installing fedora kde on my laptop

[cinder flare]

yeah it definitely would've been really nice in that situation lol

installing Fedora is suffering? isn't that shit like the easiest distro to install lol

[wind patio]

well, you can do remote debugging

[cinder flare]

omg what

[wind patio]

didnt you know you can attach debugger to a remote jvm

[pastel imp]

yeah I was jking, until now it has been fine, I just had some issues due to secure boot being enabled at first

[cinder flare]

im ngl no i did not

[pastel imp]

no issues until now though

[cinder flare]

i have been doing shit locally this entire time

[wind patio]

https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/tutorial-remote-debug.html

[pastel imp]

but I haven't gone through the customizing it rabbit hole xD

[cinder flare]

including at my work, i've been running jcmd to get profiles to then copy paste to my machine to open in IntelliJ's profiler view lol

[wind patio]

you just need to enable it on the remote jvm

java -jar -agentlib:jdwp=transport=dt_socket,server=y,suspend=n,address=*:5005 remote-debug.jar

[pastel imp]

tf this is peak

I mean, bit useless in my case

but I can see the use

[cinder flare]

hmm but i gotta like firewall that bitch pretty hard to not be a massive security vulnerability right?

or can you do like a password or something?

[wind patio]

technically yes, but if you use a firewall you can just allow specific IPs to access that port

[cinder flare]

ah hmm okay

i definitely need to set that up ASAP for my dev server lol

[wind patio]

yeah its pretty nice ngl, just need to set things up

I also remember having to profile a java app running on OpenShift via VisualVM, feels like magic

[cinder flare]

i've gotten a lot of mileage out of just the IntelliJ integrated async-profiler stuff

[wind patio]

I havent really used the integrated one, not sure why lol

but I remember trying it out

[cinder flare]

it's really nice, good UI, good keybinds, and you can click on the code to take you directly to where it is, and it shows you in the gutter longer stuff

[wind patio]

whats wrong with testing locally thou

dont have the same/similar environment (as in plugins), or?

[cinder flare]

yes, we have databases and multiple people working on our hosted dev server at the same time, so keeping up to date with their latest changes is impossible

[cinder flare]

and this lol

[wind patio]

ah I see

makes sense

I just use test env databases locally and I work pretty much alone so, no problems on that front

[wind patio]

oh yeah lol that's where the remote profiling (as I mentioned visualvm) comes in handy as well, totally missed this message

I would guess IJ has ability to remotely profile aswell

its called JMX or whatever

[cinder flare]

oh yeah i wanted to use that, but the security concerns prohibited me :/

[wind patio]

https://visualvm.github.io/applications_remote.html

[wind patio]

JMX does have SSL and auth

depends how much access you have

[cinder flare]

oh shit!

does it have certificate/key auth? or just like user/pass?

[wind patio]

personally I can do whatever on dev/stage environments on our openshift

[cinder flare]

yeah same at work, but this was for prod performance regressions mostly lol

[wind patio]

ah, trickier

[wind patio]

you'd probably need a custom JMX Authenticator

generally its just user/pass with or without ssl

[cinder flare]

ah that's probably fine then i'd think

SSL in my brain just connected to HTTP certs and SSH for some reason lol

[pastel imp]

Sooooo.... I accidentally deleted the taskbar of my laptop

love kde xD

[wind patio]

skill issue

[pastel imp]

indeed

I have no clue tf I am doing lol

[brazen ether]

unironically task bars are unnecessary

I don't use them at all

I don't know why people do

[cinder flare]

i just like knowing what's open yk

and seeing the date/time

[brazen ether]

separate spaces/desktops are a much better form of organization

[cinder flare]

i don't really think they're comparable

you can use one without the other, either way lol

[brazen ether]

you can have a really thin bar with information like that on top or bottom, task bars are much more clunky and it's even worse when people actually use them to navigate

[brazen ether]

you don't need an app task bar with good organization

since you just have your apps on different spaces

[cinder flare]

i mean i barely use my task bar and don't use workspaces at all

i just alt tab mostly

[brazen ether]

you can use something like spotlight if you get lost or something

[brazen ether]

😭

no....

[cinder flare]

and yeah i mostly just press windows key and start typing to open things

[brazen ether]

workspaces are so much better than alt tab

you can utilize more apps much more efficiently

[cinder flare]

i mean i have three monitors, so i only want to ever change one at a time

doing the windows virtual desktop thing moves all of them at once, it's really annoying

[brazen ether]

windows issue

[cinder flare]

and i usually want to see multiple things at once, and i want to switch which one is on which monitor

so workspaces are probably pretty great for single monitor setups lol

[fresh glade]

ok, so im making a plugin, and i have a issue.

i cant decide whenever use TriumphCMD or bukkit / spigot default methods for commands.

[cinder flare]

but having three monitors, i have a lot more specifics of where i want stuff yk

[wind patio]

never used workspaces, I use three monitors as well, they pretty much have the same things on them all the time

[brazen ether]

😭

[wind patio]

and when I need I just alt tab or use powertoys search

[brazen ether]

I don't have multiple screens so I can't comment much

[cinder flare]

yeah i probably should start using powertoys search

idk i just like the simplicity of pressing the windows button and typing

[fresh glade]

plz answer :>

[brazen ether]

I don't use external libraries unless necessary

[wind patio]

whichever works best for you

[brazen ether]

so imo probably stick to the defaults

[cinder flare]

if you're brand new, you should probably do it the normal way first

if you have experience already, then feel free, but also probably look into more options tbh

i love Matt and literally contribute to Triumph stuff, but Cloud has been so excellent to work with

[wind patio]

oh it's PowerToys Run, not search lol

[cinder flare]

yeah i knew what you meant lol

but yeah i have a lot more micromanagement needs for windows across all three of my monitors, so switching entire workspaces is really not good lol

at work, i usually have my IDE in middle, dev site on left, and tickets/docs on right

[pastel imp]

I mean, I still used it for some small but impactful tasks, I had my taskbar only show on hover on windows.

[wind patio]

crazy stuff

[pastel imp]

I tried it a while ago and found triumphcmds to be better, what changed?

[cinder flare]

yeah i can't believe they had separate version of IJ and PyCharm for so long

so nice that they're just one

[wind patio]

so nice they added Spring support'ish for the free version

[cinder flare]

i just like the formatting of Cloud better tbh, it's really down to personal preference, it just suits my way of thinking more

[pastel imp]

raycast better than the powertows spotlight btw

sadly no raycast on linux

only thing close to it is vicinae

[cinder flare]

Windows in beta and AI integration? ehhh

and it costs money? yeah yikes

[pastel imp]

it's just a shortcut to chat with AI, can be disabled or not used.

money only for the AI limits

etc

[cinder flare]

what makes it better?

[pastel imp]

you can use it for free easily

[pastel imp]

extensions and overall had a better experience.

[wind patio]

also if anyone is still using Windows 10 (I think works with 11 too), try
https://filepilot.tech/

it's so nice

[cinder flare]

any specific things?

seems like it does a lot more stuff, like clipboard history, window management apparently, notes, translating?

powertoys is all open source iirc, so that definitely has an appeal

[pastel imp]

I found that search works better, flow is much easier and the AI chat shortcut rlly does help for small stuff. With extensions I can control spotify, directly search youtube, steam, among others like linear issues, github, etc.

[pastel imp]

clipboard history is way better than the windows one yes

[cinder flare]

why everything gotta cost money 😔 and not open source? idk how much i love putting something that essential into the hands of some random company i've never heard of yk

but it does look cool

[pastel imp]

later tmr or so I will try vicinae

[wind patio]

huh, it's free (rn)

[cinder flare]

yeah and costs $8 a month to sync 😔

[pastel imp]

which is an open source linux alternative to raycast

[pastel imp]

across device?

[cinder flare]

only for now

[pastel imp]

eh I never needed that so

[cinder flare]

that is the definition of sync lol

[wind patio]

I mean, I am using Free Beta right now, it works really well

[pastel imp]

yeah never needed that

nor do I see a reason to need it tbh

[wind patio]

honestly I didn't even see it has pricing

[pastel imp]

what's the use case for this?

using clipboard history in my pc and laptop?

[cinder flare]

i just want a nice open source robust upgrade to stuff i already use yk

so raycast and all its paid ai shit, and this with its closed source and paid licensing in the future, just rubs me the wrong way

[pastel imp]

fair enough

I mean, I am fine with the free tier for now so yeah

but I do follow your approach on my (now) linux laptop

all open source if possible

(I did hope that raycast had a linux version, sadly not)

[cinder flare]

i mean it's kinda funny, cause i'm on Windows for everything lol, so i'm already kinda fucked

[brazen ether]

i'm in the unixporn discord and people just write their own raycast-like shit all the time

[cinder flare]

but like, PowerToys does so much nice stuff that it makes me not even want most of this stuff anyways

like, Vicinae has an Emoji Picker, Calculator, Clipboard History, and all that is already in PowerToys all open source

[pastel imp]

why not switch?

[cinder flare]

from Windows?

[pastel imp]

or dual boot if the problem is games

[cinder flare]

like every single game I play, and my work gives us Windows computers lol

[pastel imp]

then just dual boot

[cinder flare]

i gain essentially no benefits from switching, i gain lots of annoyances, so it's not really worth it lol

i have a dual boot linux distro setup, but i rarely use it

[wind patio]

I've been meaning to migrate to fully Linux at some point, but I use PowerToys Mouse Without Borders for my work so I can use the same keyboard and mouse and there are no Linux alternatives (that works Linux -> Windows iirc, and that I can install on my work laptop)

and hardware switch is annoying

[cinder flare]

god powertoys is so nice dude

[pastel imp]

yeah used that too, rlly nice, I remember seeing alternatives though!

[wind patio]

99% chance I wouldn't be able to install them on my work laptop

due to security reasons

[pastel imp]

eh yeah that sucks

[wind patio]

I remember asking my IT if I could install an open-source software (that is similar to PT MWB I think), it stated that it has false-positives in VirusTotal and, well, obviously, they told me "VirusTotal blah blah blah, no"

[pastel imp]

it's funny though

I previously saw so many people saying to migrate to linux and now I see people saying that they don't want to or dont see the benefit xD

not specifically about this convo, just in general

[wind patio]

(imo) vendor lock in, similarly with apple products and their ecosystem

[pastel imp]

which is even funnier since I may see that happen, but stats say that linux is at an all time high adoption rate.

[cinder flare]

yeah i mean when i didn't have a job on Windows everything, the idea was quite intriguing

but now that I just use Windows for my work, and Microsoft RDP is so fucking excellent, and every game is moving to Kernel anti cheat that requires Windows, it's just not worth not having

[pastel imp]

Maybe with proton we will reach a point where games will no longer be the limitation for not switching to linux

[cinder flare]

and like, Discord streaming gets fucked up, small things just annoy me, there's just not really much benefit

i doubt it

[pastel imp]

I don't.

[cinder flare]

games that have kernel level anticheat will never work with Proton

and every game that doesn't basically already does

[wind patio]

everyone will switch to Linux once League starts working on it

[pastel imp]

Steam is getting big af, at with their work on SteamOS and specially everything running on it, its in their interest to make games work.

[wind patio]

😆

[cinder flare]

Steam is and always has been "big af" lol

[pastel imp]

yes but have you seen stats lately?

[cinder flare]

there's no way all these anticheat developers are ever going to let Linux happen, it's just too free and open

[wind patio]

steam support goated (btw)

[pastel imp]

in the past year(s) they have had a VERY big bump in their "significance"

[cinder flare]

i have no clue what quantifiable stats you're referencing, but Steam has always been literally massive

[pastel imp]

weren't there plans for some type of kernel AC layer system for ACs on linux or smt?

[wind patio]

my wifes steam got hacked and I think I maybe sent a single email and they literally didn't ask anything and fixed the issue in less than 2 hours or something lol

[cinder flare]

and either way, nothing's going to change in terms of anticheat development, it's not a Steam related problem at all

[pastel imp]

I remember Linus saying he didn't care about gaming regarding that topic

[pastel imp]

meanwhile, I am not gonna talk about my experience with apple....

god...

[wind patio]

lol

[pastel imp]

I legit am still waiting for an update from their support

my old apple account got hacked, changed password, changed phone number, security questions, enabled 2fa, I got an email saying that, which had a link where I could reset the password and disable 2fa but guess what

when I tried logging in, I couldn't log in due to security questions which the hacker changed

what's the logic? idk lol

[cinder flare]

apparently now it's Command Palette and it looks nice!

omg what if they have Raycast extensions, this would be crazy

[pastel imp]

yes it is, it was pretty nice for the 10mins I tried it xD

[pastel imp]

they dont

[cinder flare]

they have "Extensions"

[pastel imp]

yes but not the raycast ones

[cinder flare]

i suppose it's only a matter of time until they port all the good Raycast ones

[pastel imp]

and from what I recall, their extensions were pretty limited

but it's still very nice if you dont want raycast

[cinder flare]

what are the banger extensions? maybe there are some nice equivalents for powertoys

[pastel imp]

I pretty much mentioned some I could remember

not on pc rn

[cinder flare]

hmm, lets see, i think i'd rather just use the apps for youtube, steam, github, etc. i think someone mentioned spotify, which i already have keybinds for controlling my playback... hmm

[wind patio]

very nice

[cinder flare]

maybe i'm just not the kind of person for this kind of thing lol

[wind patio]

I'm still on v0.94.0 lol

wait Powertoys Run and Command Pallete are different things

or I guess Pallette superseded Run

[cinder flare]

yeah that's what they're trying to do from my understanding

and i must admit, it is actually quite nice to go into the little submenus

maybe i just need to get used to it, though my keybind doesn't seem to be working? i want it on Win+Space

is that like an already taken keybind or something?

oh yeah i needed "Lower Level Hook" apparently lol

[pastel imp]

thought so too, but got used to it really fast

using linux on my laptop is kinda me forcing myself to stop using my mouse

and learn the shortcuts

xD

[cinder flare]

idk im a big shortcuts guy in general

[pastel imp]

(specially now since I no longer have my taskbar lmao)

[cinder flare]

love snipping tool on Win+Shift+S, love color picker on Win+Shift+C, love emoji selector on Win+.

obviously I use Vim keybinds in my IDE every single day lol

[pastel imp]

I still don't have the talent of using IJ only with keyboard

[cinder flare]

sadly you kinda can't do most things outside of actual text editing with vim bindings

maybe someday we'll get a full IJ mod that runs a virtual NeoVim to control everything like you can do with VSC lol

[pastel imp]

I never got used to VIM

nor have used it a lot tbh

https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/using-product-as-the-vim-editor.html

there's this

xD

[cinder flare]

no yeah trust, IdeaVIM is awesome, and an excellent emulation of vim in IJ

but you can't really do much outside of just edit text, all the window management and capabilities that you get in NeoVim like navigating between other parts of the app doesn't really work, and you can't really map vim keybinds to it

[brazen ether]

yeah the lack of vim-style window navigation is sad ):

its open source tho so I could probably add it

beauty of open source

[wind patio]

damn you can just directly type (some?) commands now

[cinder flare]

yeah they made it so that the . completion menu lets you do code actions too

it's interesting in theory, but i have yet to be actually pleased by it lol, it's only been annoying so far

[brazen ether]

if you're gonna type multiple characters to perform an action you literally might as well just use ideavim at that point

like a big part of vim is throwing away clunky modifiers for easier to type multi-key bindings

which can also be initialisms for what you're doing to make them easier to remember

[wind patio]

I mean I know my keyboard shorcuts, but seems like a nice feature for those who don't

[brazen ether]

those people should just learn them ngl

[wind patio]

well, (imo) it also helps to learn, since, well, it shows the keybind as well

[cinder flare]

yeah i mean for rarely used code actions, it is quite nice to just be able to .. and start typing what you want to do, ain't no way i'm remembering keybinds for all these random things

i think i'm just a little too used to it returning nothing when it runs out of stuff, so it showing more options that aren't completions threw me for a loop lol

[wind patio]

same lol

I mostly just use .var and .field

[cinder flare]

my brain just autopilots to fixing it with vim keybinds lol, i can't even like manually stop it and tell it to be smarter

[wind patio]

on another topic, I might finally be able to publish the mod's source code tomorrow

if I dont decide to rewrite it for the 4th time

also, any feature recommendations?

[wind patio]

I honestly don't get the vim/neovim appeal

though I never really tried it, used vim maybe like two or three times, but for quick edits I just prefer nano

[brazen ether]

it's an objectively better way to edit text

[wind patio]

better than?

[brazen ether]

all existing methods

[brazen ether]

imo vim keybindings can be really nice bcs even for longer actions, you can do things like "<space>fmt" or "<space>bp"; i use a lot of initialisms for actions

[brazen ether]

well you could make an argument for some other modal editors

but like

[wind patio]

I mean I can't really compare, but I don't find it difficult to use IJ, VSC, whatever

[brazen ether]

i do strongly believe modal editors are objectively better than non-modal, once you get used to them (which only takes a few days really)

[brazen ether]

you don't know what you're missing until you give it a fair shot

[wind patio]

maybe, yeah

[brazen ether]

using nvim is also like

it can do the work of python/bash scripts at times

with some plugins

like doing something massive and reptitive to many files

though ai can help with that

so it's not as big of a benefit

it's also just very nice for refactoring

the way macros are handled in vim is so incredibly smooth and non-intrusive

but it also takes a long time to learn all of its features well

[wind patio]

I have seen some people use vim/neovim and yeah, it is quite powerful

[brazen ether]

like you can learn the basics in a few days but it's probably gonna be a while until you're using macros effortlessly

[wind patio]

maybe some day ™

[brazen ether]

it's also just fun

that's one of the biggest reasons

alongside less hand pain, being able to write things effectively with no mouse

[distant sun]

I'm not really up to date with these editors, what are you talking about?

[crude cloud]

huh, people use the mouse on intellij?

i sure don't lol

[brazen ether]

vim

don't have to stay up to date for that one 😂

[distant sun]

I dont care about VIM, I thought you were talking about something else 🙂 star mentioned the .. shortcut for IJ

[pastel imp]

btw @cinder flare #555462289851940864 message

regarding remote hotswap

[pastel imp]

well us mere mortals do

[dapper pawn]

@queen bone dms

[pastel imp]

What's the stance on comments on code? What's good practice? Is documenting/giving a javadocs comment to every method the ideal?

[prisma wave]

i'd say so

getters and setters maybe being an exception

[wind patio]

@cinder flare iz out https://github.com/M0diis/M0-MinecraftDevTools 😩

[pastel imp]

W

Suggest it to the paper folks

maybe they add it in kami chan

[wind patio]

who that

[potent nest]

kami chan is mainly about performance

[pastel imp]

yeah I know

but there is kami chan extras plus

[pastel imp]

kami chan is a modpack by some people of the paper team

https://modrinth.com/modpack/kami-chan-optimized

[wind patio]

yeah doesn't seem like its meant for utilities

nor the plus variant

[crude cloud]

Kami Chan Optimized is purely a performance-oriented modpack, an unopinionated one to that

Kami Chan Optimized Plus used to also have non-performance-oriented mods, more about QoL features like minimap and whatever else idk, but now is abandoned and archived

[pastel imp]

didnt know it was abandoned

[crude cloud]

yeah there's a bold red banner on the modpack modrinth page lol

[torpid bluff]

It's more difficult develop a minecraft mod or develop a minecraft plugin?

[ocean quartz]

Depends on what the mod or plugin does, mod can be more complicated due to needing to handle both server and client for certain things

[wind patio]

probably a mod

[half harness]

imo a mod but I'm probably biased

[prisma wave]

mod programming is probably harder but plugins have more constraints that you have to workaround

imo

so it depends what ur doing

[pastel imp]

I didnt open the plus page

[prisma wave]

@nocturne apex looks cool but what would you actually use this for?

[nocturne apex]

the registry lib?

[prisma wave]

Ya

[nocturne apex]

well it is mainly bcs of centralization of some cache. I do have registries of Action types, Economies, Conditions, etc. etc.
Tho am also still trying to make those API accessible, so anyone can still inject their own types.

This is mainly for overall management of the cache without having to use the concurrent hash map, which could cause a kind of overhead in some cases

am just using atomic reference for the registry graph snapshot

which is way lighter

it should b literal ns

[prisma wave]

I see I see

[nocturne apex]

graph contains literal frozen registries, so they cannot be mutable, but you can unfreeze them, which creates a new snapshot of the map

and Registry object is just a holder of RegistryGraph, which is also frozen and creates a snapshot when unfrozen

it may make some stuff bit harder to achieve due to using extra methods, tho its just an extra safety and still looks quite clean especially while it is a centralized system

and then Ive also made Typed registries using which you can make Class bound registries

@Suppress("UNCHECKED_CAST")
inline fun <reified T : Any> MutableRegistry<Class<*>, FrozenRegistry<String, Action<*>>>.registerAction(
    id: String,
    action: Action<T>
) {
    register<String, Action<*>, Action<T>>(id, action)
}

@Suppress("UNCHECKED_CAST")
inline fun <reified T : Any> MutableRegistry<Class<*>, FrozenRegistry<String, Action<*>>>.registerActions(
    map: Map<String, Action<T>>
) {
    register<String, Action<*>, Action<T>>(map)
}

@Suppress("UNCHECKED_CAST")
inline fun <reified T : Any> TypedRegistry<String, Action<*>>.getActions(): Map<String, Action<T>> {
    return this[T::class.java]?.getAll() as? Map<String, Action<T>> ?: emptyMap()
}

@Suppress("UNCHECKED_CAST")
fun <T : Any> TypedRegistry<String, Action<*>>.getHierarchical(id: String): Action<T>? {
    return this.getHierarchical<String, Action<*>, Action<T>>(id)
}

@Suppress("UNCHECKED_CAST")
fun <T : Any> TypedRegistry<String, Action<*>>.getAllHierarchical(): Map<String, Action<T>> {
    return this.getAllHierarchical<String, Action<*>, Action<T>>()
}

Ive made extra extensions for my Action & Condition registries

Ive got actions that support different binders, so you can make literal actions for different classes like Player, Entity, etc. etc. can be any class ofc

and using getHierarchical am getting all possible actions that support the Player binder and use the "command" ID

"Hierarchical" is kinda self explanatory

Those are just systems that am using for a few months already in my customer's systems, but never made docs for them, etc. So Ive just separated them from the systems and made them open srced

Thus I always wanted to make some nice and clean Kotlin libs

I also wanna make a lib for generic messages system with MC implementation & translations

[prisma wave]

Yeah I think the design is cool and immutability focus is based

I just wasn’t really sure what it’d be used for

[pastel imp]

yeah, same

I don't need any case I personally would use it

[nocturne apex]

would or would not? 😄

[pastel imp]

I meant I dont see any case where I'd use it

[crude cloud]

I personally would use it

[pastel imp]

Bruh

[tribal plinth]

quick question devs,
where do you store:

1. images
2. gifs
   cause I've seen a lot of y'all storing the data in database instead of CDN (cloudflare r2 for example)

[lavish notch]

What's the context/use-case? Like for use in plugin pages, or plugin functionality, etc.

Additionally, are you asking about manually created images or some sort of automated process?

For me, when I'm manually handling a few images for use in a plugin page, I just Imgur it.

[tribal plinth]

not mc related

this is dev general xd

but well it could also help out others, and it's for people to pretty much upload them

like:
user X uploads a gif/image
store it in XYZ place or just store the data in sql

[crude cloud]

I've never done anything like that so take this with a grain if salt, just my 2¢, if you really wanna DIY it i wouldn't store it in the db itself, I would store it in a file somewhere, then the path to the file and whatever metadata relevant to the file in a db, then anything that uses that file reference the primary key on the other table etc

i know SQL Server allows you to transparently "store" files in it and access them, but it keeps them separate still, all configurable etc, it just makes it transparent, idk about other db engines because I've never had to do anything like that elsewhere

I wouldn't be surprised if pgsql had the same mechanism

in that case it's quite convenient

[quaint blaze]

If its for user uploaded files, I just store it in some sort of s3 like r2 with an id as its name and then store that id in the database.

[crude cloud]

yeah that's why I said "if you really wanna diy it", otherwise the answer is "you don't, use b2 r2 or s3"

they make fun projects anyway

[agile galleon]

Depending on how you deploy it just saving it to local FS isn't a bad idea either

[cinder flare]

most web frameworks will have stuff for storing files nicely iirc

Django has a whole Media files system that automatically keeps track of it with the database/filesystem/s3 stuff, which is super nice

would not recommend storing any more than a few kBs of plaintext in the database, that just makes everything rougher

and if you want local s3, minIO is pretty nice tbh

[wind patio]

I just store them in FS, give them a new random name, store their real name, new random name, path, etc. in the database

Also a worse idea would be to store base64 strings

or blobs

[frigid badge]

store files in blob storage and put the path in a database.

[pastel imp]

appwrite storage if I am using appwrite otherwise backblaze b2 storage or any object storage db

[agile galleon]

What's the point of local S3?

[prisma wave]

testing i guess

or cheaper if you have a big vps

[agile galleon]

I mean instead of local FS

I use S3 for backups as well but that's on a remote server and S3 is a well supported "protocol". If the application is serverless or horizontally scaling then it'd make sense to have a central place for S3 idk

[prisma wave]

can easily swap it out for another s3 service later

[tribal plinth]

that's what I was thinking, but maintaining s3 (security) or paying off to cloudflare gave me a big ff especially that some people enjoy finding a way to give me a huge bill; and storing to db is just out of the way, I did it once, I still see some websites do it, and I'm not thinking of redoing it as it slows down your whole website, application or anything else, so I was thinking of having 3 different storage providers (appwrite, cloudflare, firebase) to handle it out instead

but idk, I might get questioned as weirdo trying to abuse free tier while my whole point for this is that I'm paranoid that people would abuse and get me suspended for not paying a huge bill
and hosting a minio instance rn isn't that good of an idea especially if for example the project is on a smaller scale

[tribal plinth]

like I know for a fact that we stick with minio for example for almost everything but this is a personal project and there isn't a lot of funds or guarantee it's going to end up working out which is also why I'm taking some precautions

[prisma wave]

Backblaze is quite affordable for s3 tbf

[ionic gust]

convince me to keep supporting spigot

how are there 2 bukkit servers ???

[ionic gust]

theres also 10 "universespigot" whatever that is

https://github.com/srnyx/annoying-api/issues/13 💀

[desert horizon]

Didn't know bstats changed design

Also, mine is even less spigot

[ionic gust]

fr it looks so much nicer now

global stats:

[desert horizon]

Yeah, tho I really need a dark theme

It hurts my eyes

[abstract osprey]

uspigot is based on paper not spigot

the name is misleading

[woeful flame]

universepaper

lol

[abstract osprey]

doesn't sound as good

[woeful flame]

[ionic gust]

https://darkreader.org/

obviously doesnt look as great but it used to look a lot worse with the old bstats theme

[ionic gust]

love how it says that literally nowhere 😭

could be a fork of forge for all we know 🤣

[abstract osprey]

i could've sworn it did

guys it's a hybrid fork!!!/s

[ionic gust]

💀

[ionic gust]

their faq is not great

oh well

kind of crazy to pay $70 for a product that only gives you an extremely basic faq 🙃

[abstract osprey]

i'm a client, i can forward any feedback you have if you want

[potent nest]

Surprise, scam product is a scam

[prisma wave]

i love how their "feature list" is just

1. lightning fast performance
2. feature rich
3. active community

how does anyone fall for this

[agile galleon]

So many servers fall for that stuff and honestly it seems to have worked out for some

[prisma wave]

if they provided literally any details i might be a bit less skeptical

[abstract osprey]

word of mouth afaik

i'd assume the amount of people coming from the website is very low

[old wyvern]

Rust be like 🤓

[pastel imp]

To my knowledge it really became popular because of 1.8 support being dropped etc

It did some optimizations and people just liked it

It's a big scan yeah but welp

[abstract osprey]

elaborate on 1.8 support being dropped

[pastel imp]

Support for it being dropped by paper etc

[abstract osprey]

as a client it's not a scam but i do completely understand the skepticism

[pastel imp]

I have worked with uspigot lol, it is indeed a scam

[abstract osprey]

could you elaborate?

[pastel imp]

lots of work being stolen from other forks, it is not as performant as people say, and simply shady

we switched away from it right away lol

and actually saw performance improvements

[abstract osprey]

when about was this

[pastel imp]

few months ago

[abstract osprey]

what client/server were you with

[crude cloud]

UniverseSpigot scammed $50,000 out of my grandma

[abstract osprey]

they're coming for your grandad next

[crude cloud]

oh don't worry

he is dead

[abstract osprey]

oh.

[pastel imp]

NDA

but it was decently large

had around 700ish players

[abstract osprey]

mkay

[royal tundra]

[desert horizon]

I've seen so many ItemsAdder GH issues that had UniverseSpigot as server...

[lavish notch]

Anyone here know of any quick way to extract the full list of resource buyers on SpigotMC?

I've got a resource with 15,000 unique buyers which I'm looking to extract (to make a discord verification system) and I hoping to avoid manually going through all 314 pages of buyers.

For reference, I'm not looking to automate it as such since I know SpigotMC has made that very difficult as I plan to manually add users to the extracted list going forward.

[agile galleon]

Afaik the best system is parsing PayPal emails but for extracting buyers from Spigot uhh, maybe Selenium automation so you can pass the captcha as it doesn't necessarily use a headless browser

[lavish notch]

Sadly PayPal transactions isn't an option for me (I don't have the access, also don't know if transaction history will go far back enough) so I'll explore the Selenium route I guess.

[brazen ether]

https://github.com/bsommerfeld/pathetic