dev-general

[brazen ether]

i think honestly the issue is that once your gamemode is more complex, the bots just aren't complex enough, and so overall they decrease enjoyability

[abstract osprey]

Unless you like to take the most interesting takes like the GP dev who isn’t dropping spigot

[brazen ether]

.io games are so simple that you cannot really have complex enough interactions for it to be a huge difference between someone being a player or a bot

[oblique heath]

wtf paper.io down??

[oblique heath]

true

[pastel imp]

the only reason why users are taking so long to switch is because of developers that keep supporting spigot. Same thing for 1.8 and alike, if devs stopped supporting it, people would move on

[brazen ether]

designing fun bots is hard though

so props to people who manage to do that

[abstract osprey]

yeah that’s true

[pastel imp]

I blame devs that use spigot and support 1.8 for ruining the community in that way

[ionic gust]

users*

[abstract osprey]

Funnily enough, iirc FAWE announced they weren’t dropping spigot support, then days later used paper specific api 😭

[ocean quartz]

Another big reason to not swap is because of premium resources

A massive reason in fact

[pastel imp]

no. Devs are the problem

[ionic gust]

no

[pastel imp]

yes

[ionic gust]

i disagree

[pastel imp]

yesish

paid resources became a tiny bit less relevant regarding 1.8

[ocean quartz]

Was talking about spigot vs paper only

[pastel imp]

but yes, most devs still support spigot due to being able to post in spigotmc

yes

[prisma wave]

yeah if i was making a premium thing i'd try and support spigot 1.8

unfortunately

but also im goated so supporting old versions isnt that hard

[pastel imp]

honestly, I won't.

I prefer losing money than being part of the problem

[prisma wave]

theres no right or wrong answer

yeah

thats fair

[pastel imp]

if people want change, then they should act like it

a perfect analogy is people complaining about nvidia gpu pricing, yet they still purchase them

if you don't like it, why do you keep doing it or influencing it?

[prisma wave]

unfortunately thats at least partly a fallacy

"we should improve society somewhat" "and yet you participate in society"

there isnt always a choice

[pastel imp]

right now, there is

and devs prefer to not be part of the solution to get some short term money

[brazen ether]

only if there's little downside to not using spigot

[brazen ether]

is this the case for most users?

most of the ones who use spigot currently*

[prisma wave]

Your argument is based on the idea that using old versions is a problem, which it isn’t necessarily

[brazen ether]

as long as there's demand for spigot plugins there's likely to be devs providing the supply

[prisma wave]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with it

[prisma wave]

exactly

[brazen ether]

Minestom simply not supporting anything but the latest version:

[prisma wave]

can you not use an old version?

Also that makes sense cuz they have to implement all the changing protocol stuff

Whereas spigot doesn’t really

[brazen ether]

you can but there's no ability for older version players to connect

[prisma wave]

Ah right

[pastel imp]

versions are a problem both by itself and in spigot usage. spigot is way more dominant in 1.8 than paper since paper was very new there, yet paper is the dominant one in later versions... So versions are also the problem

[prisma wave]

Well spigot doesn’t have that either by default does it

[prisma wave]

why is it a problem

[pastel imp]

the thing is, there isn't necessarily spigot plugin demand, people just go to the spigotmc forums since it's one of the most known. But as shown by several stats, almost everyone uses paper nowadays

[brazen ether]

so would you say the issue is that spigotmc is used as a plugin market over other more modern markets?

or that spigotmc required people to use... spigot

[pastel imp]

spigot is dominant in 1.8 -> devs support 1.8 -> support spigot while at it because of being able to post in spigotmc, but also because majority of that version uses spigot and since spigot plugins work on paper, that's a Win / Win

[cerulean ibex]

massive?

[crude cloud]

😏

[ocean quartz]

Humongous

[brazen ether]

You know what else is massive

[cerulean ibex]

fuck u barry

[prisma wave]

so then why is targeting spigot 1.8 a problem? Sounds like it’s better

[crude cloud]

kinky

[pastel imp]

Both? SpigotMC is older than modern alternatives, for instance, like I previously said, modrinth gets about 10m visits per month, lets assume that's 1m for plugins, Hangar gets around 150k per month in comparaison, BBB gets around 650k, and polymart around 240k. While spigotmc gets 2.4m... basically more than all the others together.

So, it being so popular makes it the "go-to" place for plugins. But, I do agree with your second statement that if spigotmc for instance, allowed paper only plugins, it would mitigate a lot of the problems, and I am 100% sure several devs would stop supporting spigot itself.

[cerulean ibex]

holy yap

[pastel imp]

supporting a decade old version? Don't need to say much more

[prisma wave]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with that

Real software industries work with stuff much older than 10 years

[cerulean ibex]

yea i dont get this argument

[crude cloud]

11 years, even

[cerulean ibex]

theres ppl still playing that version cuz its fun

[ocean quartz]

The amount of enterprise shit that isn't even using java 8 yet is surprising

[prisma wave]

Exactly

Minecraft is all things considered a very fast moving field

[crude cloud]

you don't need the latest and greatest minecraft features if you are writing, say, a friending plugin

or a homes plugin

[pastel imp]

the whole conversation (in my view) is about the minecraft community evolving out of spigot and decade old versions. Yes, people still play it, does not mean it's the best idea. Same thing for software, etc.

[prisma wave]

you can not want to use old versions personally

I just don’t think the argument that it’s harmful holds up

[ocean quartz]

You need multiple parts to move for that to happen, players, server owners, devs, and marketplaces

[pastel imp]

I think it's harmful to innovation and evolution of the community and servers

take an example of how resourcepacks changed the whole playing field in later versions

[prisma wave]

Yeah I disagree because at this point the communities are more or less separate

[ocean quartz]

And look at how many servers still don't use resourcepacks and probably never will because of the amount of work it takes

[pastel imp]

they already are, aren't they?

[prisma wave]

the only people still using 1.8 are people who will never update because they like the classic experience, and people using 1.21 will update to 1.22 because they like the latest experience

It’s effectively two different games

[ocean quartz]

The thing is that some people will prefer classic experiences and that's fine, look at OSRS or WOW Classic

[pastel imp]

I'd argue the only thing gatekeeping people in 1.8 is the pvp actually

[prisma wave]

Yeah it probably is

But that’s not going to change

[pastel imp]

I doubt people don't get bored of 1.8 servers xD

[brazen ether]

it doesn't really matter why, you can't really just get rid of the demand

[pastel imp]

they are extremely limiting compared to latest versions

[brazen ether]

people get bored of everything

[pastel imp]

sure, question is how fast

[brazen ether]

trying to convince people out of enjoying something isn't a good strategy

[prisma wave]

If a developer chooses to support 1.8 then they probably aren’t doing anything truly “innovative” anyway, if you’re making something with loads of custom models and textures then it would obviously be insane to try and support such an old version

[pastel imp]

demand has been going down from what I have seen

[crude cloud]

people play decade old games because they are fun for them

if it isn't fun for you, that's your problem

[pastel imp]

My view of that, is that developers supporting 1.8 gives 1.8 users one less reason to move forward

[brazen ether]

nobody has to support 1.8 if they don't want to.

[prisma wave]

They are never going to move forward

and it doesn’t matter yeah

just don’t support it, that’s fine

[pastel imp]

not saying it isn't fun, it's just limiting. I was an 1.8 user myself

just got bored of seeing the exact same things constantly and no innovation

[prisma wave]

Why do they have to move forward? Who says they need a reason

[brazen ether]

I wonder how much this will change in the future as Minecraft is supporting more and more features that allow for almost mod-like creativity

[prisma wave]

Yeah nobody’s saying you have to like the old experience

[crude cloud]

well, that's you, not the people playing 1.8, or decades old games, they still don't change and are limiting compared to new games

[pastel imp]

if society didn't move forward we would all be fked lol

[prisma wave]

Minecraft mods are not society

[brazen ether]

1.8 players don't harm anyone

[pastel imp]

flashbacks of germany a few decades ago (this is a joke)

[crude cloud]

🤨

[brazen ether]

everyone who 1.8 players "harm" willingly choose to invest time in that market

[pastel imp]

wdym

[prisma wave]

Yeah it’s not the same as like, being homophobic

[brazen ether]

devs aren't forced to do anything they don't want to is what I'm saying.

[ocean quartz]

You'll see a lot of really cool new things coming out and a lot of players playing but 1.8 is still likely going to stay the same
Even if you can 1:1 re-create 1.8 combat in newer versions people might still like how it was better
But yeah Mojang is doing a fantastic job with all the data driven things they are adding, it's very exciting

[brazen ether]

it's not stunting anything

[prisma wave]

Yeah nobody is being held back by it

involuntarily

[brazen ether]

I think this is a reason Minecraft will keep growing cause you rlly can do a lot with it in accessible ways

there's still constant innovation

[pastel imp]

no one ever said anything about forcing them, it's whether them supporting 1.8 (in this case) is beneficial

[prisma wave]

there’s virtually no pressure to support old versions, at worst you might get a few people asking but you can just say no

[prisma wave]

Beneficial to who?

Who decides what’s beneficial

[brazen ether]

it's beneficial for people who want to do it

nobody is forced to do it

thus it's not bad

[pastel imp]

I guess no one, but that's how opinions work

there are pros and cons of each side, anywhere you go

[prisma wave]

sure

I feel like that’s not what you were saying though

there is nothing inherently harmful or bad about playing and targeting 1.8

[pastel imp]

I mean, I have always been addressing what I say as my opinion on supporting spigot, 1.8 and friends

[prisma wave]

broke: playing 1.8 is bad
woke: playing any version of minecraft is bad

[pastel imp]

lol

[prisma wave]

There’s a big difference between saying you don’t personally enjoy something, and portraying it as a societal problem

[ocean quartz]

Playing is bad

[pastel imp]

from the way I see it, it is

[prisma wave]

It’s still not clear why

[pastel imp]

you can apply that logic to anything, hell even recent politics xD

[prisma wave]

i still think that’s a flawed comparison

[brazen ether]

I despise toothpaste flavored ice cream. I think it's the worst thing to come out since avocados. but my girlfriend likes it, and thus I must concede that agreeing to disagree is okay.

[crude cloud]

yeah, that's why i prefer gambling, it brings me joy to life even when my girlfriend dumped me for losing all our savings

[prisma wave]

political conservatism doesn’t really have anything to do with wanting to play an old game

[half harness]

mint ice cream >

[pastel imp]

some people say trump is a problem, others say he is the savior of society, opinions I guess? (I do not intend to persue further conversations regarding politics, it was just an example of recent global news)

[crude cloud]

briste3TRUE

[prisma wave]

Keep going you can only lose 100% of your money but you can win 1 trillion percent!!

[pastel imp]

don't you dare say you put pineapple in your pizza

[prisma wave]

if you make a discord for your twitch account you get free discord nitro

[brazen ether]

it's okay for Muslims to not eat pork but that doesn't mean everyone else can't eat pork. restaurants who choose to serve Halal food aren't hurting anyone

[prisma wave]

kind of

[ocean quartz]

90% of gamblers quit right before winning

[brazen ether]

❌

[prisma wave]

that’s a nice analogy

And halal restaurants aren’t slowing down pork restaurant innovation at all

[brazen ether]

and even if serving halal is extra work, no one is forcing you

[prisma wave]

and if you do the extra work, everyone can still eat it!

[pastel imp]

yeah, that's how opinions work. You can have opinions on society since you are part of it. Some people would agree with your first sentence aka that no one should eat pork, already seen it myself.

[half harness]

but also (many of) these people have the ability to influence others to vote in order to change how they live
that's (one reason) why political arguments can get quite heated

[abstract osprey]

actually

[brazen ether]

you are that person who thinks no one should eat pork, in this analogy

[prisma wave]

Yeah politics actually affects people’s lives, it’s a flawed comparison

[ocean quartz]

Chat I have just reset local main to origin main and lost 3 commits

[pastel imp]

agreed

[prisma wave]

Sad

[abstract osprey]

hopping back into idk what this is but hopping back to spigot
how do people support older versions of mc when methods and whatnot change?

[brazen ether]

reflection

[abstract osprey]

ah thought so

that sucks

[half harness]

what D:
btw do you still use gitkraken?

[prisma wave]

you just target the lowest version you want to support and spigot guarantees forward compatibility in 99% of cases

[pastel imp]

While eating pork and using spigot/1.8 affects a person in drastically different ways, I guess I am

[half harness]

modules can work as well

[abstract osprey]

A friend of mine somehow wiped their entire git history :/

[ocean quartz]

Yesm

[prisma wave]

unless you’re doing nms stuff ofc

[brazen ether]

I lwk didn't read the question 😭

[prisma wave]

hehe

Both interpretations are valid

[abstract osprey]

yep unfortunately the situation I’m in, so I’ll burn that bridge when I come to it

[prisma wave]

sorry to hear that

[half harness]

I mean reflection is a very common method as well, just depends on your usecase ig 🤷

[prisma wave]

but yeah modules are better than reflection imo

[abstract osprey]

paperweight my beloved

[prisma wave]

Usually

[brazen ether]

it's not that bad usually depending on what you're doing

[abstract osprey]

I’m just doing some packet fuckery and worldborder fuckery at the moment

and some netty injection

[prisma wave]

they’re both ultimately inconsequential I’d argue but yeah

[half harness]

oh boy
if you want to support more than 1 version, paperweight won't help much (unless you have separate jars for each version)
otherwise, paperweight is awesome

[brazen ether]

https://www.spigotmc.org/wiki/nms-on-different-versions-without-reflection/

the actual good way ^

[pastel imp]

On another note, we can all atleast agree that paper and latest versions are much easier and better for devs to work with?

[prisma wave]

Yes definitely

I don’t think anyone would deny that

[pastel imp]

sadly, you are wrong

xD

Have seen my share of people disagreeing

[prisma wave]

nobody sane and educated

[abstract osprey]

Right now I just have different gradle modules / sub projects (whatever you like to call them) which do the NMS stuff for their respective vers

[pastel imp]

Usually they are 1.8 spigot users

[half harness]

you sure they don't mean that they prefer playing that version
thus they prefer developing in that version as well

[abstract osprey]

can someone make a coreprotect alternative please

:P

[half harness]

haven't used coreprotect in ages but what's wrong with it? 🥲

[abstract osprey]

oh boy

[pastel imp]

on another side note, you'd use NMS for packet stuff, right? Been a while since I heard the term NMS somehow

[abstract osprey]

I could go on for a while…

[prisma wave]

90% of people who say old versions are easier just have a skill issue cuz they’re still used to doing things the old way and don’t know how to learn the new ways

[brazen ether]

this is random but i am extremely annoyed by how AI has been completely useless even for mindless programming. i needed to switch between YAML parsing libraries a while back. this is like the exact type of task i would rather have AI do, but of course, it's inept!

[prisma wave]

Usually

[prisma wave]

So true

[abstract osprey]

Well some would use something like protocollib or packetevents for packets because it means your plugin can technically support more versions without frequent updates (ish)

[half harness]

do you use github copilot?

[brazen ether]

packetevents by retrooper is smth i've been using recently (if this is what you're referring to)

[pastel imp]

actually not, from talks I had, purely objectively, they see 1.8 spigot better to work with, according to them "less bloat"

[brazen ether]

nah

[half harness]

ah

[pastel imp]

yeah haven't used NMS in ages, I use PE xD

[abstract osprey]

I use NMS because I do a lot of stuff involved with worldborders and then proceed to send packets to each player

and also some netty stuff for signs

[brazen ether]

yea it's nice

[prisma wave]

tbh you can make that argument, the old versions definitely do run better

[abstract osprey]

PE & entitylib <3

[prisma wave]

Though that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re easier to develop with

[pastel imp]

YESSIR

[ocean quartz]

I remember watching a stream where the dude would spend 30 minutes on AI then annother 20 minutes fixing what AI gave him for something that would have taken like 15 if he had used his brain

[half harness]

less complexity = easier to learn
especially if you're new, I could probably understand that

and then it becomes hard to move to the stuff that you're not used to (what are these components??)

[pastel imp]

Even though I have heard some bad things about retrooper, idc

PE better than protocollib

lol

[abstract osprey]

AHAHA you had SO much fun didn’t you with entitylib

repooper as they call him is chill

[pastel imp]

yeah, I do understand that, but objectively saying 1.8 spigot is _better is eeeeehhhh

[prisma wave]

Yeah for better or for worse things are definitely harder now, especially for unconfident developers

[brazen ether]

this is what i ended up dealing with because i find that with AI code, there is a certain level where it's complex enough that you have to spend some time trying to understand it but it's not actually like.. doing what you actually want it to do

[pastel imp]

xD kinda had some fun

[prisma wave]

Long gone are the days where you can just type your section symbols and have it work

[pastel imp]

using it for one of the plugins I am working on

[abstract osprey]

what plugin 👀

[brazen ether]

most memorable thing AI has given me is that Kotlin has a Number#coerceIn function

[pastel imp]

secret

[abstract osprey]

damn it

[pastel imp]

well technically not a secret since I have posted about it in #showcase but it was in minestom at the time

lol

[abstract osprey]

maybe I’ll go stalk the code snippets in entitylib

*afonso deleting them all*

[pastel imp]

what does coerce mean 💀

my english is lacking

[abstract osprey]

isn’t that like

[prisma wave]

it restricts it to be within a given range

[brazen ether]

basically guarantees a number to be between 2 other numbers

[prisma wave]

Like a combination of min and max

[abstract osprey]

wtf is this kotlin shit

😭😭

[pastel imp]

nha

[prisma wave]

It’s useful

[abstract osprey]

yeah I can see how it would be useful tbf

[pastel imp]

oh that's nice

[brazen ether]

in Comet i support javascript in the configuration files, and i've noticed this is like really useful for general configuration where you need to work with numbers, and im probably gonna include it in my UI plugin. anyone else try something like this out?

[prisma wave]

it’s handy every now and then yeah

[ocean quartz]

The only time I ever found AI useful was when I had a really weird issue with opengl and I couldn't find anyone anywhere with the same issue, so I used it and it kinda told me what was wrong and I manged to figure out the rest on my own lol

[abstract osprey]

I would switch to kotlin but I fear I would write even shittier code than I do already to be brutally honest
although iirc kotlin forces you to handle null values and whatnot so.. who knows

[prisma wave]

yeah js is a solid config language

easier than json

[brazen ether]

yea it's pretty good when your problems are simple

[pastel imp]

the UI part or js part xD

[prisma wave]

typescript is even better

[half harness]

although iirc kotlin forces you to handle null values and whatnot so.. who knows
strongly recommends rather than forces

:))

[brazen ether]

i have it so you can use it inside expressions, and i provide environment variables and such

[ocean quartz]

Reminded me of this

[prisma wave]

Handling nulls is an objective good thing

[abstract osprey]

well.. at least it recommends it more strongly than normal java

[brazen ether]

JS. just for simple math related stuff

[abstract osprey]

oh absolutely

[prisma wave]

It also eliminates a lot of null problems entirely

Like they’re just impossible

they can’t happen

[abstract osprey]

decompiled kotlin.. 😭

[ocean quartz]

Anything is better than nothing

[prisma wave]

Meh who cares

[pastel imp]

I have not, probably should though xD for my own UI plugin xD

[abstract osprey]

:/

[prisma wave]

Look at decompiled clojure if you really want to suffer

[abstract osprey]

oh god no

[brazen ether]

i would recommend it! it's pretty performant too.

[abstract osprey]

I have some self preservation left

oh question
best inventory / gui lib for spigot

[pastel imp]

I am sure there are some cool places where they are useful xD

[prisma wave]

sounds handy, pls provide a typescript definition for the big config file if relevant

[pastel imp]

for now I am just focusing on working on the barebones of the UI stuff

[prisma wave]

Makes me sad whenever js tools don’t do this and you have to guess whether the config is valid

[brazen ether]

you can do a lot with it, like even user-defined variables and such

[ocean quartz]

Add support for kotlin script while you're at it :D

[brazen ether]

like here i have a dynamic way where you can specify how many "random" variables you want to have generated per context

and then you can just use that inside expressions

[pastel imp]

reminds me of hocon a bit

[brazen ether]

i'm unaware of what that is

[pastel imp]

https://tenor.com/bMnYM.gif

[prisma wave]

all the implicit variables read weirdly to me as a programmer but it makes sense to do it like that for the users

[prisma wave]

JSON but less ugly

[brazen ether]

they actually aren't implicit

[prisma wave]

oh?

[brazen ether]

they're defined up top

here ill show

[prisma wave]

Oh okay even better

[prisma wave]

like having on_particle_init be an arrow function would make more sense to me

[ocean quartz]

They have been recovered! God bless git reflog

[brazen ether]

this is WIP but you can basically define variables which then get replaced with a function, and you can do stuff like interpolation

[brazen ether]

this is json

so i'm not sure what you mean

[prisma wave]

Oh

[brazen ether]

i have a neovim plugin that hides the quotations when i'm not selecting the line

[prisma wave]

Where are the quotes

Oh

I thought it was js

[pastel imp]

OOOOHHHHH

(def take a look at hocon then)

[brazen ether]

lmao 😭 no the js are inside the expressions

[brazen ether]

ill check ito ut

[ocean quartz]

Love hocon

[brazen ether]

we're planning to have an in-game editor eventually for all this stuff

just building the functionality rn

[pastel imp]

who doesn't ❣️

[prisma wave]

Right that makes more sense lmao

[brazen ether]

building configurable systems is an art

[pastel imp]

Yeah I recall larkyy speaking about it, honestly, it sounds awesome but extremely hard to do properly (even with the UI stuff)

[brazen ether]

i'm definitely biased, but that's also why we're planning to have a lot of pre-made assets

so people can build off of that

• in-game editor can have live preview

[pastel imp]

you speaking of comet right?

[brazen ether]

yes

[pastel imp]

yeah live preview would be nice

[brazen ether]

i'm probably also gonna use the UI library i'm working on or something similar to create smth intuitive to use in-game

[pastel imp]

although I recall larkyy speaking about support for blockbench?

or some other editor

[brazen ether]

with dropdowns and sliders and such

[pastel imp]

you already got dropdowns working?

[brazen ether]

ahh probably should have clarified, we meant like creating effects that can follow shapes from models defined in blockbench. like for example having a sword that explodes into particles, or defining paths for particles. i'm not quite sure yet to be honest

[brazen ether]

well it's already possible to create with my system

[abstract osprey]

jesus

[brazen ether]

via the config

there's no built-in for it

[abstract osprey]

chuck it in #showcase o.o

[pastel imp]

nice

tbf, might stop working on my UI plugin

[brazen ether]

like you would create some elements which have a tag of like "popup_something" and then have a button which toggles visibility for them, then each element can be its own selector

that's how popups work for example

[pastel imp]

I really want you to succeed, so one less "competition" (not that it would be) always helps I guess

[brazen ether]

i don't know if this is ever even going to be released so i wouldn't worry about it lmao

[pastel imp]

why wouldn't it?

it has the potential

[brazen ether]

it's exclusive for a client

[pastel imp]

ikik

I was working on it too xd

[brazen ether]

maybe if we convince them to become like an investor and then they get some % of revenue

[pastel imp]

but I guess you can still use the same library/system or similar to make it a plugin

[brazen ether]

we'll have to see, there does seem to be interest in something like it right now

[pastel imp]

somewhat yeah, hence why I wanted to try it

but honestly out of respect for your work, I'll leave it be for now

[brazen ether]

btw one of the ways i think to get around the mouse-delay issue is to show an indicator on the cursor instead

and then you can try and do some prediction to account for ping even more

there's a lot to explore

[pastel imp]

I already fixed that xD

[brazen ether]

fixed mouse-delay? wdym

[pastel imp]

yes

[brazen ether]

just with like predictive movement?

[pastel imp]

no

[brazen ether]

how then?

[pastel imp]

well, I fixed visual mouse delay

shaders

[brazen ether]

ahhh

yea that's one of my limitations

i've been doing mine without that

[pastel imp]

oof yeah

welp

now I gotta find a new project to work on my free time

been hard to find much time for stuff, hence why I had to "quit" the project I was doing with you guys

well, I didn't fully quit, just didn't have the time to work on such a big system

but larkyy didn't give me anything else to do soooo

ye

[brazen ether]

lmao fair enough

[pastel imp]

welp

what else is there cool to do

🤔

[brazen ether]

probably a bunch

just gotta come up with it

[pastel imp]

I lacky creativity sooooo

[ocean quartz]

Just buy a better brain

[brazen ether]

my next projects that i wanted to do was fluid simulation in minecraft

but that might get delayed by a while

[pastel imp]

AI is too generic

[brazen ether]

lmfao

[pastel imp]

give me monie rich boi

[brazen ether]

are you into math?

[pastel imp]

wait using display entities, etc?

couldn't comet technically be used for that?

[pastel imp]

Am I into math? No. Do I like a challange? Sure

[brazen ether]

either particles or block displays

[pastel imp]

(Well deep down I like math, but she doesn't like me)

[brazen ether]

perhaps it is time to delve beyond minecraft..

[pastel imp]

into what?!

[wintry plinth]

Relatable

[pastel imp]

what else is there to do besides blocks

[pastel imp]

look who decided to pop out of nowhere

charlie, it's not relatable

you have 2 lambos, I have uh... a PC (I am thankful for it)

[wintry plinth]

I don’t really have time for projects either, my life is so hectic

[pastel imp]

you still working at bisect? (or however it is pronounced)

[wintry plinth]

Haha, if I had that money I’d be gering you a Mac not a PC 😂

[wintry plinth]

Yeah

[brazen ether]

i've been trying to balance development on multiple projects with school + ec's and it has not been going well :Sob:

[pastel imp]

somehow I'd accept that, needing a laptop for uni

[wintry plinth]

I moved my gf out, so I live alone now, and house work takes agesss, that paired with work, I don’t have much time

[brazen ether]

you moved her out?

why?

[wintry plinth]

I normally get up at like 10am, then I start work at 12pm until 9pm. In the morning or in the evening I usually sort house work, dinner, walk dog etc

[pastel imp]

wait wut

[wintry plinth]

Days are just so hectic

[wintry plinth]

Complicated but didn’t agree with me doing all the work in the house

[pastel imp]

does that mean there is a gf (bf) spot open?

[wintry plinth]

Yeah go put a wig on

[brazen ether]

interesting

[pastel imp]

W 😂 on my way to london

[brazen ether]

oh i was confused because you didn't say ex

[wintry plinth]

Yeah still together just live separately atm

[pastel imp]

so it was mainly just misunderstandings regarding chores?

woof, could've been worse

[wintry plinth]

I’ve been chipping away at Bug.io, and another stealth project, but I just don’t have the time or energy.

After work the last thing I want to do is code on something, and on weekends I may do stuff, but I enjoy just playing games now 😂

[wintry plinth]

Yeah, I was doing all the house work, while she done none

Just wasn’t fair on me, I had work, she didn’t

[pastel imp]

you back at bug.io? thought you had abandonned that

[pastel imp]

oh so she was essentially living under your roof, not paying anything and not doing anything? lol

don't wanna be the one to say it, but kinda red flag lol

[wintry plinth]

I did abandon it, I then spent quite a bit buying another domain, then I was gonna get a lawyer to clear things, and decided I couldn’t be arsed. So I went back to Bug.

I’ve got a nice design and everything, I just can’t be bothered lol

[ocean quartz]

Not necessarily a red flag, it all depends on context

[pastel imp]

true, one which we are lacking

[pastel imp]

lol

typical charlie

[wintry plinth]

Not much else to say really, I was the one doing house work, while she hardly did any. I have work full time, while she doesn’t.

It just didn’t seem fair on me to do everything

[pastel imp]

if charlie doesn't buy a domain, you know he has been kidnapped by aliens

[wintry plinth]

LOL

I kinda wanna add plugin analytics to Bug like bStats, but also just can’t be arsed to build stuff

[pastel imp]

FancyAnalytics is a thing now too

[ocean quartz]

Well I don't know much of the circumstance, but that kinda sounds like it could be depression, sitting down and talking and trying to figure out things is what I would do
I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying there could be more to it

[pastel imp]

ultra random, tf, rp applied but not fully?

[wintry plinth]

Sweet, extra validation it’s worth doing 😂

[pastel imp]

xD

[wintry plinth]

Been there, of course I’ve redacted a lot as I don’t wanna go vent my life in some Minecraft chat. But yeah, mainly just wanted to give a brief explanation for being busy

[pastel imp]

true that, you can always talk with her and see the situation. Sometimes what matt said can be a cause, other times it's just the opposite. Relationships are difficult

[abstract osprey]

this is beautiful

[wintry plinth]

They definitely are, I did a house tidy over the weekend, god it took me an entire day

[pastel imp]

I suddenly don't wanna live alone xd

[wintry plinth]

😂

It is spooky living alone, just glad I’ve got the dog here and security system

Otherwise I’d hate it

[pastel imp]

fair

on another day of AI being crazy

(I mean, cool idea but like, does it look like I can do it?)

[abstract osprey]

you’ll never know until you try

[wintry plinth]

Honestly, just build something fun for the enjoyment if you want an idea. Don’t care if it “will make money” or not.

From my own experience, the ideas that take off $$ wise are the ones you didn’t focus on money for

[pastel imp]

I mean, it's not something I am interested in

[wintry plinth]

Analyse is a good example, I built it for the enjoyment and it took off. Whereas previous ideas I focused on the money, and they failed.. lol

[pastel imp]

Yeah, fully agree, not looking at money

b- but I don't get any ideas

[wintry plinth]

The idea you told me in private, how comes you stopped that?

It sounded fun

[pastel imp]

I am a perfectionist at heart, I can take an existing idea, and build upon it, but building from scratch? hardly

[pastel imp]

the one with AI?

[wintry plinth]

Yeah

[abstract osprey]

I completely agree with this.
I’m a dev who works for a network for free and I’ve been working on a gamemode core for months.
I have been dedicating all my time, and then the owner said I should make it a premium plugin, I agreed and now I have lost all motivation.

it’s a complete trap

Almost like quicksand.

[wintry plinth]

Yeah, it’s weird because people would assume that money would be an instant motivator, but it’s not.

It’s more motivating when it’s unexpected

[abstract osprey]

absolutely

[pastel imp]

Honestly, it can be quite boring, I spent days looking at data, training different types of models, and yeah. The idea of the project didn't seem like it was worth it (future wise) and I wasn't having much fun either

[wintry plinth]

Like if you worked on stuff for free and suddenly you was making a boatload of money, you’d be like hell yeah let’s go more at it

[abstract osprey]

the quality of something that you enjoy maintaining and developing far outweighs one motivated by money

with a few exceptions actually

[wintry plinth]

It’s sorta why Bug.io has been the only project I’ve bothered with when I can be arsed. I enjoy it, and I’m not fussed if it generates $$ or not.

I just wanna build cool shit now for fun

[abstract osprey]

there’s still plenty of projects that are paid and still fantastic

[pastel imp]

yeah... I haven't found that fun yet

[abstract osprey]

but the wide majority of them, are not

[pastel imp]

although now that I think about it...

there has always been this one project I always had interest

Doing an app, wiki style like fandom, but you'd have like a grid system, do templates, and variables, etc. More of a wiki for games, and not too general I guess

but never ended up doing it

[abstract osprey]

ooh 👀

that sounds neat

[pastel imp]

oh and with an actual api

cause whoever has ever had the pleasure of using fandom's api....

[abstract osprey]

[pastel imp]

you'd wanna kill your self fast

ngl

[abstract osprey]

[wintry plinth]

Also, if the idea you’re thinking about has already been done, it’s even more of a motivator IMO.

It’s usually instant validation that the thing you want to build, is what people are actually looking for.

I wasn’t too sure about building Bug, but now seeing you’ve just linked me FancyAnalytics, which does some of what I wanted to do, it’s made me realise hell yeah

[wintry plinth]

Go for ittttt

[pastel imp]

Eh it's not like I have anything to lose

so why not I guess

gotta get used to working with web stuff again though

haven't touched it in months

[crude cloud]

git reflog :3

[ocean quartz]

You missed my other message smh

[crude cloud]

300+ messages

wasn't gonna NOT miss it

[ocean quartz]

^

Love git

[crude cloud]

also hate git

but love git

[wintry plinth]

It’s good fun for the most part 😂

[pastel imp]

yeah

gotta start learning vue too

cause I have a feeling I am gonna be the one that's gonna code my Hangar redesign if it were to happen

lol

[wintry plinth]

😂

[brazen ether]

web dev seems awful

[ocean quartz]

It is, don't let the propaganda distract you from the truth

[wintry plinth]

To be fair I love it, but it can be frustrating. I’ve been diving into react land and love it so far

[pastel imp]

I am not a huge fan of web dev myself tbh

[abstract osprey]

[pastel imp]

triumph-guis (V4)

[abstract osprey]

mmmmmm

[pastel imp]

note: paper only

[abstract osprey]

I swear triumphgui had some giant dupe or bug like a month ago

[pastel imp]

(v3 is spigot too)

[pastel imp]

@ocean quartz inform us

[ocean quartz]

If you're doing something wrong sure you can have dups and bugs

[crude cloud]

never heard of any

[abstract osprey]

it was something like

if you use the api wrong it tries to open a gui while one is already open

and introduces some dupe

[crude cloud]

just don't use the api wrong :5head:

[abstract osprey]

It was a dupe with deluxcoinflip actually iirc

which makes use of triumphguis

[wintry plinth]

I just realised, I used TriumphGUI for Tebex plugin (I was the guy that rewrote it), and Tebex devs got rid of it for Bukkits own, lol

https://github.com/tebexio/Tebex-Minecraft/commit/c4905838883ff1658395a718bcac847ff6783f8b

[pastel imp]

the only "exploit" I heard about was a crashing exploit where they froze the gui, spammed a button then unfroze it, depending on the gui it would crash

[abstract osprey]

and it was some internal code of triumph that was causing the dupe (cannot remember)

[pastel imp]

v4 added a click interval that fixes that though

[abstract osprey]

oh no 😭

I’ve been messing around with invui recently

been quite fun

and fastinv actually

[wintry plinth]

I love invgui

[abstract osprey]

invui or invgui

[ocean quartz]

I didn't write code correctly and it broke, godamn library that I use that has nothing to do with the issue!

[abstract osprey]

😭😭 🤷‍♂️

I’ll read into chat logs a bit more in a second

[pastel imp]

funny, now that I think about it, I have no idea how wikis work

[prisma wave]

what do you mean

theyre just text

[abstract osprey]

so many different wiki frameworks 😭

[prisma wave]

https://js.wiki/ use this one it came up first on google

[abstract osprey]

Okay; turns out i was misremembering
It was a dupe with excellentcrates I was getting confused with, we were talking about triumph at the same time so I must have confused both.

[ocean quartz]

🫡

[abstract osprey]

whoops!

[ocean quartz]

Plus if some exploit or bug does come out and it doesn't get reported and instead the library is blamed for it then it's really dumb lol

[abstract osprey]

oh absolutely

okay I give up on coreprotect

I’m making my own

[brazen ether]

coreprotect has issues relating to its logs, and it's so funny because i talked to a few people and they said they reported it to coreprotect and coreprotect devs just refuse to accept it

[abstract osprey]

trust me

damn it

intelli

is a bastard

we hate each other

thanks automod

[brazen ether]

unsure if the devs' response is correct and maybe the server they play on is having some other stuff, but there definitely are issues with coreprotect on that server, specifically relating to people far from the server doing stuff

[abstract osprey]

his database system is utter dogshit

ESPECIALLY patches

he makes at minimum $2,800 a month and barely pushes anything

-# context: me counting all discord members with patreon roles and totalling the monthly income

it was months before any version came out publicly supported 1.21.x - that version is still the only one available, isn’t an ‘official stable release’ and is on patreon requiring you to sign up

and only supports 1.21-1.21.2

the code is one of the most awful things I have ever seen

Especially the command classes

for some reason he turns the action type strings (e.g. +item) into numerical values ???

and then checks that value to know what code to execute

[brazen ether]

okay i write some questionable code sometimes but that's

[abstract osprey]

like

[brazen ether]

that doesn't seem necessary at all

[abstract osprey]

Like.. I understand coreprotect has existed for over 10 years

but…

[brazen ether]

control flow obfuscation in 2024:

[abstract osprey]

I’ve been tempted to fork it and fix some of the underlying issues but the code is some of the worst I’ve seen - and I write very questionable code myself

I’d rather start again

coreprotect might be poorly coded, but it’s one hell of a plugin

especially with how long it has been around for

Also like

the coreprotect discord is

literally 95% community support based

Intelli will pop in every now and again

usually every other day

Has time to thank new patreons, make very rare fixes and publish on patreon

and yet no spigot or modrinth release

anyways, rant over!
Thanks for coming to my ted talk

[pastel imp]

it's not about using xd, I wanna do my own

[prisma wave]

oh then

it's just a database right

its not really any different to any other website

[pastel imp]

I am more misinformed on the whole process the user does to create a wiki, etc.

and if I wanna do my own, gotta know how others work

[prisma wave]

what do you mean exactly

[half harness]

don't be a copycat!

click create -> create wiki

😌

[prisma wave]

true!

[pastel imp]

I am not, the whole idea is to have a different approach to wikis

but I do not know how current wikis work internally (as a wiki owner)

which is something I should if I am doing this

I have no idea how collaboration, internationalization, reviews, etc. work in current wikis

[pastel imp]

What I said above, I am doing a wiki platform from scratch

[forest pecan]

I still have it hard coded in my mind to use io.github

Even though I know I have my own domain

Lmao

[pastel imp]

Has anyone ever used Supabase, Appwrite, Pocketbase or Firebase?

[wind patio]

Firebase, briefly

whats up

[pastel imp]

Just wanted to know about the experience you guys had with any of these

or if there were any recommendations

pros and cons of each and such

[wind patio]

uh, idk, firebase was quite simple

granted I was using it with a forked project, the initial setup was a bit confusing at first, but thats just knowing where to get your app/project ids and what not

the storing and retrieving is very simple tbh

var database = firebase.database();
// set
database.ref('data').set({
somekey: 'Some value'
})

// get
database.ref('data').once('value', function(snapshot) {
const data = snapshot.val();
console.log(data.somekey);
})

(no backticks on iphone lol)

[wintry plinth]

There is :(

[wind patio]

idk mine is missing

[wintry plinth]

Hold down on this

Then select the first one

[wind patio]

oh you can select multiple lmao

[wintry plinth]

Test

Yeah 😂

Hold down on it

[wind patio]

wtf thats so odd fsr

never would've thought

[wintry plinth]

Lots of the characters have these alternatives, I think I only knew by mistake 😂

Just held down once and thought wtf

[wind patio]

≈

would be nice to know if the symbol has multiple options

now all of the keyboard buttons look the same lol

[wintry plinth]

…

Hold down on & and you get the Minecraft character §

[wind patio]

yeah just went through all of them lmao

[oblique heath]

pocketbase on top

[pastel imp]

why

[oblique heath]

selfhosted

simple

good support

[wind patio]

cant agree nor disagree, havent used

[pastel imp]

supabase and appwrite are also open source and selfhosted

[oblique heath]

supabase selfhosting is much more annoying by comparison

i dont know much about appwrite so cant comment on it

[wind patio]

does pocketbase have query limit?

[oblique heath]

wdym

[wind patio]

I assume not if you can self host

[oblique heath]

yeah no your hardware stack is the limit

[wind patio]

like firebase, you can only do N amount of queries/day for free tier

[oblique heath]

pocketbase is exclusively selfhosted

no random silly limits

[wind patio]

thats pretty nice then

yeah you have 50k free queries per day on firebase

reads*

and 20k writes

[oblique heath]

seems like vercel where it makes money by gutting every app as soon as it gets popular

[wind patio]

lol

[oblique heath]

not a bad business strategy though i can see how it got successful

pocketbase is also great because you can extend it with your own code easily

you can write js or go plugins

it truly can be your entire backend

there are caveats but for small projects i think its really good

[pastel imp]

I was looking at preferably (for start) cloud

[oblique heath]

cloud more like

plowed

idk

[prisma wave]

Good one

[brazen ether]

anyone with a Mac, have you tried Dwell?

[prisma wave]

no

but i will now that sounds cool

this doesnt really do anything

do you mean the head tracking part

[brazen ether]

it's supposed to have eye tracking

not at my computer rn, cant test it

[prisma wave]

i was able to use head tracking but not eye tracking

not sure exactly why it says that

i cant imagine the hardware is capable of that

https://img.bristermitten.me/ZQO3HzKmkt2F
this is quite cool

[brazen ether]

ye same

[desert horizon]

There is something that bothers me to this day, which is what set of annotations I would use to declare things as nullable, notnull, etc...
Like, what would be the right aproach here (implementation of the dependency - if any - configuring it, etc)?

[prisma wave]

implementation of the dependency
what does this mean

what set of annotations
theres no single right answer, jetbrains annotations are popular, the jakarta ones are also popular

those are the main 2, most people use jetbrains i think

there should be zero configuration required

[agile galleon]

What even is the point of using Jetbrains' @Nullable compared to JavaX's?

[prisma wave]

The jetbrains ones are a bit more fully featured as far as I know

There’s stuff like @NotNullByDefault or whatever it’s called

[wind patio]

yeah but he asked about @Nullable difference 🤓

but in general annotations like @NotNull from specific "providers?" (JB, Jakarta, etc) might be handled differently, some might just be compile-time or just for null-safety, showing warnings in the IDE, whereas others, like in SpringBoot, might throw exceptions if the request is being validated (at least from what I know)

[desert horizon]

Yeah, I just don't want to shade in/include annotations if avoidable

On another note, the MinecraftHelp util from cloud-minecraft-extras is quite nice.

[prisma wave]

you shouldnt shade them

but also even if you did have to, it's like 10kb max

[abstract osprey]

paper loader <3

[prisma wave]

i loaded your mother

[cerulean ibex]

jspecify

[prisma wave]

here we go...

[cerulean ibex]

its not competing with the other standards

tools will just support it in addition to their own annotations

and all the tools are contributing to jspecify

[pastel imp]

"advancedsercerlist"

[desert horizon]

yeah, noticed the typo too

[crude cloud]

loading a 5kb jar with nothing but behaviorless annotations 💀

[forest pecan]

personally i use checker

but that adds so much annotation shit

💀

[prisma wave]

Delightful

[wind patio]

advancedserCerlist

[steel heart]

Could you not use @DefaultQualifier to eliminate verbosity?

[crude cloud]

god I hate checkerqual lol

and https://javadoc.io/doc/org.checkerframework/checker-qual/latest/org/checkerframework/checker/units/qual/package-summary.html

[cerulean ibex]

pretty sure thats generated by the checker compiler

[steel heart]

ye true

[desert horizon]

I do like how this looks.

[surreal garnet]

Yeah it looks pretty cool I can’t lie

Only feedback is, compared to the first one (Under the AdvancedServerList text) feels more lined up compared to the rest (ex. Profiles, Player Count)

[desert horizon]

Wdym?

[desert horizon]

@surreal garnet This better?

Still has some smaller differences because of the character widths and such

(Can be seen with Profiles and Player Count having the lines not 100% same vertically

[wind patio]

better

[pastel imp]

I don't even understand what I am looking at

[wind patio]

directory tree

[pastel imp]

ah editing configs ingame

oh and on a side note, might just go with supabase due to the much more extensive resources online, docs, etc. over appwrite

[wind patio]

why not base in your pocket

||pocketbase||

[surreal garnet]

Yeah much better

Forgot to respond at first lmao

[desert horizon]

Not really. Just a way to view file values ingame.

[wind patio]

could probably be made into editor

[desert horizon]

idk.

maybe.

[pastel imp]

didn't find docs attractive

(content wise)

and I am looking to start with cloud and potentially migrate to self hosted later on

not selfhost right at the start

and supabase (and appwrite) provide decent free plans to start the project

[forest pecan]

My dumbass wrote this 💀

unsigned long TurnoutList::maximum() const {
    int length = size();
    if (length == 0) {
        return NO_TURNOUTS;
    }
    unsigned long max = -1;
    for (int i = 0; i < length; i++) {
        unsigned long value;
        sequence.get(i, value);
        if (value > max) {
            max = value;
        }
    }
    return max;
}

[potent nest]

No warning in your IDE/from the compiler?

[forest pecan]

I dont think so 💀

[potent nest]

that's probably the worst part about it

like we're living in 2025 and for some languages, tooling is still stuck in 1980

[crude cloud]

clangd will certainly warn you for that

clion's built-in analyser probably but you can make it use clangd

numeric_limits::min

[prisma wave]

Wait what’s wrong with it

[crude cloud]

    unsigned long max = -1;
    for (int i = 0; i < length; i++) {

will always be true

also out parameters are cringe

[prisma wave]

Oh yeah lmao

wait what

oh cuz unsigned

[crude cloud]

yeah

[forest pecan]

I was using g++ so that’s probably why

[prisma wave]

gay plus plus

[abstract osprey]

friend of mine is working on a go-based java build tool (like gradle & maven)

it's actually

great

[desert horizon]

Added a command now to set values ingame.
Only thing left is integrate it into the file Info.

[steel heart]

@prisma wave whats ur opinion on /=

honest opinion

[prisma wave]

neutral to positive

[steel heart]

better than != ?

[prisma wave]

arguably

it looks more like the mathematical symbol

but it also fucks with your muscle memory

it's better than ocaml using <> at least

[steel heart]

lol ye fairs

[prisma wave]

what do you think

[steel heart]

goated

[prisma wave]

based

[steel heart]

so will elara be using /= ? lol

[prisma wave]

probably

[steel heart]

🤩

[desert horizon]

Or lua with iirc ~= or smth similar

[prisma wave]

awful

[ocean quartz]

I think your opinion is very =/

[steel heart]

i think prolog even went so far as to have the full =/= as a not equal operator :>

[forest pecan]

Pffft all you guys using 2 characters when I just use ≠

if (5 ≠ 3)

[steel heart]

feels like something a Julia programmer would cook up

[oblique heath]

feels like an APL move

[brazen ether]

waiting for the day we just use emojis as keywords

[desert horizon]

That also reminds me of how I use =~ and !~ for "equal ignore case" and "not equal ignore case" checks

[desert horizon]

The \\n in this pattern isn't working for me when I provide a line like Hello\nWorld!
Printing it in console displays it as one line, so the \n isn't treated as a newline character.... Any idea what else could be the problem?

(<newline> works in case you're asking.)

[half harness]

regex will treat that as a newline so you have to do \\\\n :))

two backslashes for the regex to escape the \n
and then two more backslashes for each of the first two backslashes in order for java to escape the two backslashes

[desert horizon]

That is rather stupid...... But that's java's regex handling I guess

This is so satisfying to look at for me....

And this too

Only thing left for me is to check that the command stuff works on proxy too

Actually, another thing I would like to do is find a way to change the allowed value type based on the provided option... Like when motd is selected would it be a greedy string and when it is playercount.hideplayers it would be boolean.
Not sure if that is doable via annotations tbh.... 🤔

[abstract osprey]

I doubt you could even do this without annotations
You’d probably have to keep it as a greedy string and parse it natively

[desert horizon]

Nah, programmatically should be doable by making each option a literal sub-command value and define the value option separately

[abstract osprey]

oh yeah that would work

but uh

… messy

well

[desert horizon]

Certainly

[abstract osprey]

not ‘messy’, just.. a lot

[desert horizon]

Tho, annotations are also messy for me rn :P

[abstract osprey]

have no fear, it couldn’t be any worse than https://github.com/PlayPro/CoreProtect/blob/master/src/main/java/net/coreprotect/command/RollbackRestoreCommand.java

[desert horizon]

You sure? https://codeberg.org/Andre601/AdvancedServerList/src/branch/feature/cloud-command-system/core/src/main/java/ch/andre601/advancedserverlist/core/commands/CommandHandler.java

[abstract osprey]

At least you don’t convert coreprotect lookup actions into numerical values and then use that value to know what code to run

[desert horizon]

Managed to implement per-option argument types

descriptor(...) returns a different ParserDescriptor<CmdSender, ?> based on the option.

[distant sun]

Cool

[abstract osprey]

Moved away from annotations?

[desert horizon]

not really. Just made that part of the command use the builder.

Annotations don't really have a way to achieve the same behaviour here... Unless I would go and make separate commands for each option that is.

[abstract osprey]

ah, fair enough

[desert horizon]

That lil change makes me feel proud. (The - ... + ... hover)

[ionic gust]

please help i pray please help how do i make gradle thing to obfuscate my code im so tired
trying to use proguard but it literally just say "> java.io.IOException: Please correct the above warnings first." like what 😭 there is nothing above

tasks.register<ProGuardTask>("proguard") {
    group = "build"
    description = "Runs ProGuard to obfuscate the JAR"
    configuration("proguard.pro")
    inputs.file("$buildDir/libs/EventAlertsIntegration-1.0.0.jar")
    outputs.file("$buildDir/libs/obfuscated.jar")
}
```proguard.pro: https://paste.srnyx.com/iyuzajuyeb.php (literally just copied from stackoverflow: https://stackoverflow.com/a/69275247/18122334)
**ping if reply thanks im just gonna go to bed now**

[abstract osprey]

Where are you seeing the IOException

show a screenshot of the entire IDE

[desert horizon]

Imagine obfuscating code...

[ionic gust]

when i run gradle proguard

[abstract osprey]

.

(After having run the pro guard task)

[ionic gust]

its very descriptive right

[abstract osprey]

I assume there isn’t anything if you scroll up in that log screen

[abstract osprey]

bruh???

[remote goblet]

are you sure you dont want like.. build proguard

[abstract osprey]

It’s a defined task

hold on

‘You can find some sample build files in the examples/gradle directory of the ProGuard distribution.’

[ionic gust]

alright im using their example config now:

tasks.register<ProGuardTask>("proguard") {
    verbose()

    val fileName = "${project.name}-${project.version}"
    injars("build/libs/${fileName}.jar")
    outjars("build/libs/${fileName}-obfuscated.jar")

    libraryjars(
        // filters must be specified first, as a map
        mapOf("jarfilter" to "!**.jar",
              "filter"    to "!module-info.class"),
        "${System.getProperty("java.home")}/jmods/java.base.jmod"
    )
}

but i still get the same thing

[abstract osprey]

bruh

I assume it compiles fine right

like without obfuscation

[ionic gust]

yeah gradle build works

[abstract osprey]

tf?

@ionic gust try launch gradle with --info

[ionic gust]

ok it gives warnings about not being able to find referenced annotation classes like NotNull, Nullable, etc...
and also complains about library stuff, i will jsut need to figure out what i need to config for those with proguard ig

[abstract osprey]

Send the entire error :P

[ionic gust]

"there were 6568 unresolved references to classes or interfaces."

ok i will try 💀

[abstract osprey]

By default, the obfuscation step removes all annotations. If your application relies on annotations to function properly, you should explicitly keep them with -keepattributes *Annotation*

[ionic gust]

it will be very big

ye im adding all the attributes its telling me rn

[abstract osprey]

nice

[ionic gust]

i think it went over the amount of lines intellij will show

[abstract osprey]

😭😭😭😭

average proguard experience

[ionic gust]

hastebin doesnt like it either

[abstract osprey]

LMAO

[ionic gust]

i have never in my life seen that

[abstract osprey]

just add the keepattribute flags it tells you to and rerun

[ionic gust]

Note: there were 6 unresolved dynamic references to classes or interfaces.
      You should check if you need to specify additional program jars.
      (https://www.guardsquare.com/proguard/manual/troubleshooting#dynamicalclass)
Note: there were 26 accesses to class members by means of reflection.
      You should consider explicitly keeping the mentioned class members
      (using '-keep' or '-keepclassmembers').
      (https://www.guardsquare.com/proguard/manual/troubleshooting#dynamicalclassmember)
Warning: there were 6568 unresolved references to classes or interfaces.
         You may need to add missing library jars or update their versions.
         If your code works fine without the missing classes, you can suppress
         the warnings with '-dontwarn' options.
         (https://www.guardsquare.com/proguard/manual/troubleshooting#unresolvedclass)
Warning: there were 65 unresolved references to program class members.
         Your input classes appear to be inconsistent.
         You may need to recompile the code.
         (https://www.guardsquare.com/proguard/manual/troubleshooting#unresolvedprogramclassmember)
Warning: there were 2 unresolved references to library class members.
         You probably need to update the library versions.
         (https://www.guardsquare.com/proguard/manual/troubleshooting#unresolvedlibraryclassmember)

its because im shading in some libraries

[abstract osprey]

ahhh

[ionic gust]

i literally just want to obfuscate tho

i think its trying to minify or whatever

[abstract osprey]

ouch

[ionic gust]

ok im adding dontshrink and dontoptimize

ok that changed nothing

dude i dont understand proguard, why cant it just work???????

[abstract osprey]

don’t obfuscate

[ionic gust]

need to

[abstract osprey]

:/

[ionic gust]

alright yeah whatever bruh guess im not obfuscating

[remote goblet]

huge developments happening

[ionic gust]

i got it to run after adding ignorewarnings 💀
but ofc that would not run

[remote goblet]

can i ask why obfuscation is neccessary actually

[ionic gust]

theres a lot of ppl making similar servers as us and if they could access the source code they could just rework the plugin for their own systems
i also didnt want to support 1.8.8, but someone said they would reverse engineer it to make it work on 1.8.8, which i just dont want (as theyd distribute it and if ppl experience bugs theyd most likely come to us)

[ocean quartz]

Obfuscation doesn't really stop that, just makes it harder

[ionic gust]

ikik

but if its harder its better

[ocean quartz]

Look how much was done with minecraft and it was obfuscated for the longest time

[remote goblet]

if you dont want your project to be used outside of your server, you shouldn't trust random people with access the jar or github

and any competent developer could look at anything in an obfuscated plugin and figure it out, no source code required

[ionic gust]

its meant to be a public plugin

[remote goblet]

premium?

[ionic gust]

no

[abstract osprey]

tf

why then

[ocean quartz]

lol

[ionic gust]

because theres weird ppl in this community (that im making the plugin for) i dont want em exploiting stuff or smth 😭

[remote goblet]

like exploiting bugs and whatever?

[abstract osprey]

then don't make public plugins

that's the answer

[ionic gust]

yeah

[remote goblet]

you're better off making it a public open sourced projects so people can provide feedback and fix the issues faster i feel

[ionic gust]

even if i make it like subscriber-only, it'll somehow get leaked, i know it

[ocean quartz]

I mean if they find bugs in usage they'll exploit it whether the source is accessible or not

In fact if your source was public people could much easily report and fix exploits

[remote goblet]

github issues / pull request my beloved

[ionic gust]

ig, i closed-sourced our discord bot so that ppl couldnt just steal it and run it on their own server
so i was just using the same logic here (except im giving them the jar in this case so needed "extra protection")

idrk what im protecting it against ig, but i just rather not find out when its already being distributed and such

[remote goblet]

yeah but i mean its best to establish a community almost when maintaining certain projects

there's a quite popular premium, closed sourced, obfuscated fishing plugin that has a #1 issue where... servers have little control over it, they cant add new stuff, fix issues or anything that would make it much better and runs like a dictatorship

i prefer and encourage the very opposite of that always

[abstract osprey]

if people want to leak a plugin, they can and they will

whether that’s through class dumping or whatever

[remote goblet]

there's people who will leak freely accessible, open sourced plugins so lmfao

like mcmmo

[distant sun]

How would someone get their hands on the plugin?

[ionic gust]

its a public plugin
when i said "servers" i was more referring to discord server / community
so they would rework the plugin to integrate with their discord server / infrastrure rather than ours

[distant sun]

I dont get it. Why are you making a public plugin and are afraid of others decompiling & using it?

[ionic gust]

the plugin is for an existing community tho, plugin wont make or break it
and 90% of the userbase arent developers or know anything about plugins, the small percent who do r the ones that would do something bad

[abstract osprey]

why would they do something bad

[remote goblet]

inb4 its literally just like a factions plugin

[ionic gust]

we've had to ban around 80 alts of a single person on our discord server, theres weird ppl 😭

[abstract osprey]

there’s weird people everywhere

don’t make shit intentionally hard for everyone just because of one or two

[ocean quartz]

And hard for yourself, debugging obfuscated code is a nightmare

[ionic gust]

ok thats true

[distant sun]

Im really curious what the plugin does

And whats the use case, with this community and other communities wanting it

[ionic gust]

its nothing super special rn but we have more plans for stuff in the future, which is what im concerned about

[ocean quartz]

I love when I have an error on IlIlIlIlIl.java:1458

[distant sun]

I dont miss working with TokenEnchant

[ionic gust]

our discord lets ppl announce their own minecraft events and we also announce when skeppy hosts or smth
i made a bot that lets ppl do that and it has an api with websockets for like when an event is posted and stuff
we also have discord-mc linking & server cross-banning
the plugin uses this api to announce these events in the mc server its installed on (if enabled, i dont think many ppl will use this except for us, so not super worried about this)
it also bans anyone on the cross-ban list (if enabled)
can also only let ppl with linked discord account join (if enabled)

sent too early

whatever

[distant sun]

Do you use minehut by any chance?

[ionic gust]

no

why?

[distant sun]

Just wondering, sounds like something minehut would use

Anyways

Whats the point of this though? People advertising their own servers.

Just curious

[ionic gust]

my co-owners use minehut so we're like inspired by them ig

[ionic gust]

well the big sell for event msgs in chat is that ppl who wanna play these events can join our server and play minigames and whatnot
then when an event happens, they click the button in chat and it uses transfer packets to move them to the event's server (if possible)

[distant sun]

And back to the first question. Why are you making it a public plugin if you dont want others to use it?

[ionic gust]

but the event msgs probably wont be enabled by other servers since its advertising other ppl's servers in their own

[ionic gust]

well i want other ppl to use it for the cross-ban and linking stuff, we also have other plans that i cant recall rn

[distant sun]

Can't you distribute only a small part of it, like a client that contacts a server?

[ionic gust]

well thats sorta what it is rn
the plugin connects to a few websockets (depending on what features r enabled) and makes API calls
but my worry was that someone would just change the URL of the API being used, create their own API with same schema and endpoints, then distribute that (its highly unlikely but id rather not have it happen)

[distant sun]

Anyone can replicate the functionality just by learning about it, they dont need the code.

[ionic gust]

oh right there was also the thing of requiring it to be installed for our partners (who get extra event announcing perks)
but someone was like "ill reverse engineer it so that ur API thinks its running the plugin when it really isnt"

[distant sun]

Why waste time with that instead of doing productive stuff?

[ionic gust]

because then i have to do productive stuff

lmao

[distant sun]

No I mean with obfuscation

[prisma wave]

security through obscurity does not work im afraid

[ionic gust]

nono i was making joke sry
its true tho i could be doing other stuff, like releasing the plugin 🙃

[ionic gust]

yeah i realized they can still easily change the string text of the API URL

[prisma wave]

lol

[ionic gust]

but my thought was that obfuscation must help in some way so might as well do it

but im not gonna do it cause its not working, lotta stuff can break, and debugging is doodoo

[distant sun]

Im sure you can check the integrity of the api request somehow. Maybe a combination of api key + ip address from where the request is coming from

[ionic gust]

cant it all be spoofed tho?

[prisma wave]

depends how much control the user has

[ionic gust]

primarily for this scenario

[distant sun]

Depends how much one is trying

If they can change the api url, how would that do anything?

[ionic gust]

well if its open-source, they could just log the special key and set that every time no?

[distant sun]

Doesn't each user get their own key?

[prisma wave]

you shouldnt be publishing secret keys even in open source software

[ocean quartz]

It shouldn't be a constant in code either, it should be an env variable

[prisma wave]

can someone tldr what the point of this plugin is im not reading all that

[distant sun]

Some api requests it seems like

[ionic gust]

well i wanted anyone to be able to use the plugin
and if i do make it partner-required, some partners might still use the spoofed plugin someone else makes

[ionic gust]

yesyes ofc

[distant sun]

I feel like you are overthinking this

[ionic gust]

yes i do that a lot

[distant sun]

If one uses the plugin with their own api key, isn't that enough?

[prisma wave]

please like what is the key thing for

[ionic gust]

with the partner-required scenario tho, we were thinking of having like "checks" to make sure their server is active or smth (or other stuff, doesnt rly matter what), if they spoof it, they could say its always active

[remote goblet]

registering ssh login into my plugin

[distant sun]

Lets just recap. Explain shortly how the plugin works.

[prisma wave]

please

[distant sun]

Because I feel like you want to trust the "client" a lot, while you should move more checks on the "server".

[prisma wave]

yes

never trust the client

always assume that user input can be and is evil

[ionic gust]

well for example we'd get the player count (assuming it was not accessible through motd), i dont think theres any way to get that besides the client telling the server

[prisma wave]

that is true

lots of motd plugins already lie about player count

[distant sun]

If you read it yourself and the count is spoofed, what else can you do?

[ionic gust]

exactly
thats why i wanted to somehow protect the code so that someone couldnt make their own that easily spoofs all the data we receive

[prisma wave]

even if the code is obfuscated

i can just open wireguard