off-topic

[mellow wedge]

censorship setting

[wary willow]

its beta

not all servers has it

have it

[sullen sorrel]

mobile amoled > this one though

[eternal apex]

who just merged chatchat

[mellow wedge]

icic

[wary willow]

idk english

[wary willow]

why?

[eternal apex]

now I have to update the bungee branch again

[long summit]

The theme is .. too dark for desktop imo

[sullen sorrel]

Piggy

[mellow zinc]

o

[sullen sorrel]

yes

even the mobile has lighter shades

[wary willow]

Kaliber seems to have done that.

[wary willow]

I like it.

[sullen sorrel]

Piggy

[eternal apex]

hello

yes

dkim

what

[sullen sorrel]

what are the requirements to gain access to ChatChat

[fallow crow]

I like it

[eternal apex]

fucked if i know

[fallow crow]

Use it every day

[mellow zinc]

my bad pig 🥲

[sullen sorrel]

oh who owns it

[wary willow]

to chatchat what?

[sullen sorrel]

cube?

[wary willow]

there's chatchat beta users, and there's chatchat development

[eternal apex]

do any non staff members have access to chatchat source?

[sullen sorrel]

Oh

Okay so anyways how's your day everyone

[wary willow]

its open source

[eternal apex]

ah

yes

[fallow crow]

lmao

[eternal apex]

this makes sense it is on github

[mellow wedge]

truth

just like papi 3

[wary willow]

the whole thing was "chatchat - free and open source"

but someone forgot xD

[fallow crow]

there's the private dev channel tho, I know Lucy is there

[eternal apex]

I didn't make the connection at first

[sullen sorrel]

oh I meant

Papi3

mb

[wary willow]

lmaoo

dkim

[fallow crow]

lmao

[eternal apex]

why do you wan tto see it

[wary willow]

how do you go from PAPI3 to ChatChat?

[sullen sorrel]

🥲

both new

[fallow crow]

speaking of PAPI3, pig anything that needs to be helped with as of right now?

[mellow zinc]

"new"

[wary willow]

everything lol. its a mess

[eternal apex]

I mean I need to rewrite most of it

[fallow crow]

feel tbh

[long summit]

Piggy, is papi3 getting done before paper adds their own placeholder system for minimessage?

[fallow crow]

lmao

[eternal apex]

idk

idk anything about that

[sullen sorrel]

how long is the multi

[fallow crow]

an hour

[sullen sorrel]

oh

thank you

[light scaffold]

Time you got a watch

[long summit]

It'd be pretty much like papi but built into paper, not sure when they plan to add it but they've been talking about it

[sullen sorrel]

o

well

it won't be on Spigot

so PAPI is still alive

[mellow zinc]

good

[long summit]

Spigot is dying

[zenith mauve]

[sullen sorrel]

well spigot plugins aren't allowed to recommend paper iirc

or is it force paper

idk

[fallow crow]

Man I am starting to run out of things to say to complement this experience multiplier

[sullen sorrel]

so spigot owners might not really know about paper

[fallow crow]

this is correct, not even recommend

[short topaz]

(paper would need to add a provider service for minimessage which is doable already)

[eternal apex]

well

[wary willow]

both

[eternal apex]

erm

[fallow crow]

like if you use PaperLib you can't use the suggestPaper or whatever

@short topaz qt

[wary willow]

they warned me for 1 of my 3 plugins that recommend paper xD

[sullen sorrel]

oh what

[wary willow]

not all 3 of them, just 1

[sullen sorrel]

they enforce it to that too?

[eternal apex]

it's not necessarily a replacement for papi 3 as papi 3 has the expanded scope of supporting multiple platforms

[zenith mauve]

wdym?

[fallow crow]

(and publish it on spigotmc.org)

[light scaffold]

I'd like to see them try and stop me

[zenith mauve]

what your message said?

[long summit]

dew it

[fallow crow]

they have, plenty of times lmao

[wary willow]

for better performance and more functionality use paper.

xD

[light scaffold]

Yeah but not me

I would easily beat md5 in a fight

[zenith mauve]

ahhhh

[mellow zinc]

go on then

[zenith mauve]

but many plugins do that

[wary willow]

they edited the message from my spigot page and from my plugin update from only 1 of the 3 plugins lmao

[fallow crow]

yeah do it

[zenith mauve]

iirc, dont they?

[wary willow]

the plugins are also very small lmao

[mellow zinc]

fist fight in australia

[eternal apex]

emily basically I can't really do any proper work on papi 3 till I finish school

[light scaffold]

plane ticket to Australia is too expensive

[eternal apex]

which will be soonish

[fallow crow]

I see

[wary willow]

ok. I go eat now. byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[sullen sorrel]

you could have it so that when the user tries to use the feature it prompts them to switch to paper instead of like a startup message

i dont think they'd mind then

[fallow crow]

seeee yaaaa

[zenith mauve]

my plugins say: "You are using a spigot fork, plugins might have errors or not work correctly. Report issues if any" xDD

[short topaz]

minimessage itself could do most of the work here instead, which is what we're assuming is going to be done (but nobody is actually doing it)

[zenith mauve]

when not using Spigot

[wary willow]

wasn't even a startup message

just on the spigot page

lmao

[sullen sorrel]

well yea

dont put it on the spigot page

🥴

[wary willow]

shhh

[fallow crow]

you should see #developer-chat

[sullen sorrel]

PIG

[fallow crow]

@sullen sorrel when will you 😔

[sullen sorrel]

😭

[mellow zinc]

lol

[eternal apex]

yes?

[light scaffold]

you should see #staff-chat

[sullen sorrel]

doesn't matt also have access

and bm

[eternal apex]

literally everyone but you

[sullen sorrel]

no i mean

to read the applications

[eternal apex]

literally everyone but you

[sullen sorrel]

what

[light scaffold]

give it another year

[mellow zinc]

at minimum

[eternal apex]

dkim I think all staff have access to it

[sullen sorrel]

O

oh cmon staff

[eternal apex]

dkim what's ur github

[sullen sorrel]

what about cj

[mellow zinc]

(we dont)

[fallow crow]

lmaooo

[mellow wedge]

no, I am a professional developer

wym

[light scaffold]

Yeah staff do

[sullen sorrel]

https://github.com/dkim19375

although some repos show as recently updated because of renovatebot

40 repos

[mellow wedge]

we only staff professional developers

[sullen sorrel]

😌

[mellow wedge]

so we can make chatchat

[sullen sorrel]

and only 8 private repos

[sullen sorrel]

how much staff?

[short topaz]

@fallow crow rude

[eternal apex]

ok

you guys have access now

[mellow wedge]

all staff

lmao

[fallow crow]

wh

why

[sullen sorrel]

oh

[short topaz]

bullying ppl

[mellow wedge]

it's our job to staff the place

how can we staff if no access

[long summit]

I did like a few reviews and then stopped and now after joining Noxcrew I have 0 time for it

[fallow crow]

access to what

[eternal apex]

the apps

[mellow zinc]

dont worry we now have access
i promise we will now do the applications

[mellow wedge]

I also can see all the premium plugin channels and haven't purchased them all 😮

[sullen sorrel]

oh 🥲

[fallow crow]

oh

[light scaffold]

At least 3

[sullen sorrel]

thank you very much

btw how long is the queue?

just asking

🙂

[eternal apex]

yes

[fallow crow]

l0ng

[sullen sorrel]

Oh

got it

thank you

[mellow wedge]

Big long

[eternal apex]

https://github.com/PlaceholderAPI/PlaceholderAPI3

[sullen sorrel]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH_ _ _ _ _ _

THANK YOu

[mellow zinc]

very long

am i allowed to say how long the queue is

[eternal apex]

yes

[mellow zinc]

well

[sullen sorrel]

since when could they see your IP

[fallow crow]

I offered myself to do some apps reviewing but cube didn't want a FOREIGN OUTSIDER to do it

[mellow zinc]

it goes back to march 🥲

of last year

[eternal apex]

idek dkim

[fallow crow]

I have no idea where that even is shown lmao

[eternal apex]

idk how to see ur ip

[sullen sorrel]

O

[fallow crow]

google "what's dkim's IP address"

duh

have you tried?

[eternal apex]

i'll try

[sullen sorrel]

😖

my privacy!

[zenith mauve]

yet

[sullen sorrel]

lets gooooooooooooooo

thank you piggy

thank you

[fallow crow]

Don't worry about it, Google has it all

[sullen sorrel]

Oh well

[sullen sorrel]

no!!

[short topaz]

@fallow crow

[fallow crow]

hi

[mellow zinc]

gl trying to understand it 🌚

[short topaz]

hi

[fallow crow]

uwu

[eternal apex]

it's not even that hard to understanddddddd

[mellow zinc]

if u say so

[eternal apex]

well

[sullen sorrel]

wow this is huge

[mellow zinc]

tbf i havent looked at it in a while

[sullen sorrel]

didn't know a plugin that replaces placeholders can be so big 🥲

[eternal apex]

I want to rewrite it so it's less un-understandable

[long summit]

Oh no

[mellow zinc]

not that the code has changed, but maybe i am more knowledgeable since the last time i looked

[sullen sorrel]

although i guess for performance and other features

makes sense

[short topaz]

https://github.com/yume-lang/yume/pull/9

[eternal apex]

it's not even a matter of knowledge

[long summit]

You'll fall in the rabbit hole of rewriting things before they are done and never finish

[fallow crow]

yoooo

[eternal apex]

it's not like I'm using strange esoteric features that you wouldn't have heard of

my code style is just fucked

bad design perhaps

[fallow crow]

I feel that

[long summit]

Same

[eternal apex]

well here's the thing too

the complexity isn't for nothing

there's a LOT going on with this project

it's not simple to provide a compatibility layer between 3 very different platforms

[short topaz]

https://github.com/yume-lang/yume/pull/9/files#diff-de97c5e02010636a475c5eb9132f9b9d459dbdc2ca3d8f3a26d2efb8233f5571R107-R108

why can't i stack arrows 😔 ->->

[eternal apex]

so I'm not even sure what I can rewrite

[fallow crow]

sadge

you can start from scratch

🙂

[eternal apex]

the material api definitely needs to go

[eternal apex]

it doesn't need to be reset

[fallow crow]

oh man it's only been 35 minutes ??

shit I need to go tho

[eternal apex]

I just need to make the super complex stuff

only mediocre complex

so basically the key system & material system

I think those are the two most convoluted systems

literally no clue how to make the key system simpler, it was my simplified version from sponges lol

material should be easier to make simple though

[fallow crow]

If you're thinking about "material" as in Bukkit-like Material, that's awful

Blocks are separate from Items

Don't let it get into your head they fit into one same category

[eternal apex]

papi doesn't distinguish between them iirc because there's no expansions that do

[fallow crow]

That's on the expansions

[eternal apex]

but it is kinda like bukkit - https://github.com/PlaceholderAPI/PlaceholderAPI3/blob/master/api/src/main/java/at/helpch/placeholderapi/api/item/material/Materials.java

[fallow crow]

It's still horrible and it's only a Bukkit thing

[eternal apex]

so yeah

really needs to change

[fallow crow]

ye

I mean there are "materials" internally

But they're more like "type properties"

idk it's weird stuff

Totally different meaning

[eternal apex]

well I just classify it for items

[kind sorrel]

no u

[eternal apex]

items have a material type

items in an inventory

the problem with not having a system like this is consistency across versions and platforms

material names throughout minecraft's history have changed names, and there are variations between server implementations

and ideally papi should present the "right" name

[kind sorrel]

in best case you'd use translation keys ig

[eternal apex]

best case yes

but the question has to be asked, does this even really matter?

because the name can be understood by a human regardless of whether it's "correct" to the game's internals

the question is whether papi's output is being used as a key for data

or just in chat

[fallow crow]

yea

[trim raft]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1544361578350477312

DiscussingFilm (@DiscussingFilm)

Rockstar has shelved remakes for ‘Grand Theft Auto 4’ and ‘Red Dead Redemption’ and will focus on ‘GRAND THEFT AUTO 6’.

(Source: https://t.co/lOgnmUj5Qd)

Likes

1043

Retweets

116

Twitter · Jul 5, 2022, 4:44 PM

[fallow crow]

No, they have an item type, do not let Bukkit fool you

What I, personally would do is model it around Sponge API, not Bukkit which has shown its age for so long now

[mellow zinc]

just seen this

fucking gta trilogy...

[eternal apex]

trilogy?

[mellow zinc]

the definitive edition

[eternal apex]

what was in the trilogy?

[mellow zinc]

ur really out of loop

[boreal escarp]

Remakes of rdd and gta 4? Whats that

[mellow zinc]

gta 3, san andreas, vice city

[boreal escarp]

The tri£ogy

[eternal apex]

right

seems like a good use of their time

something the people are wanting

[mellow zinc]

the rumour is that theyve stopped development of gta4 and rdr remasters because of the bad reception received from the trilogy

[eternal apex]

but idrc about gta6 anymore honestly

where the fuck is es6

[boreal escarp]

es6?

[analog marlin]

there should be a GTA for england

[eternal apex]

elder scrolls

[analog marlin]

instead of guns only knives

[eternal apex]

it's all I care about

[boreal escarp]

Ah ah

[eternal apex]

i'm fiending elder scrolls

[boreal escarp]

Minecraft better edition when

[eternal apex]

never

[trim raft]

Todd said it's Starfield, es6 then fallout iirc

[eternal apex]

ik

but so much waiting

and people keep complaining about starfield i'm gonna be so sad if it's a flop

[boreal escarp]

so far we got bedrock edition and the upcoming bullshit edition aka java

[trim raft]

They really did not have shit when they released that teaser 💀

[eternal apex]

nope

[eternal apex]

so are you guys in the loop with the chat reporting stuff

[wary willow]

yes. stupid

that's all there is to it

[eternal apex]

no

I mean

how it works

[trim raft]

Blitz jumpscare

[boreal escarp]

not very well

[fallow crow]

Please don't start the arguments again lmao

[boreal escarp]

Cant wait for the next stupid thing they add

[wary willow]

you report message, it goes to their moderators, which review the message, and then there's supervisors who will review the review

[eternal apex]

i'm an admin I can start whatever argument I please

[trim raft]

Several people are typing

[fallow crow]

I mean it does function well, you not liking it is a whole other thing

[wary willow]

they told us very little.

[eternal apex]

so as far as I can tell

it's opt in

[wary willow]

nope

[fallow crow]

Did someone say chat reporting?

[eternal apex]

yes

[boreal escarp]

you can opt in to quit the game I guess

[fallow crow]

It's not opt in

[wary willow]

I haven't played minecraft in a while and probably won't in another long while. I did the same with csgo. I haven't touched that game in months

it won't make a difference but fuck them

[eternal apex]

from a server owners perspective it's opt in I mean

[boreal escarp]

I mean, I dont play minecraft very often either, but I still care about the changes

[wary willow]

no tho?

[mellow zinc]

how is it opt in

[eternal apex]

I'm not sure what's public information

[boreal escarp]

do mods or plugins that remove the key thing work?

[eternal apex]

don't want to get anyone in trouble

[wary willow]

there was someone saying you can opt in from server properties but I'm pretty sure that's false

[sullen sorrel]

well spigot removes it

it just sends a system message

[wary willow]

How the fuck are we suppose to know if its not even public information? lmao

for us rn its not opt in. so its fucked

so fuck mojang, fuck microsoft

and fuck steam

[boreal escarp]

interesting dkim

[wary willow]

that's just an extra

[fallow crow]

I don't even think it's Mojang that's doing it

I think this is all Microsoft

[wary willow]

I mean they have to implement it...

[fallow crow]

Best idea is to leave a children's game totally unmoderated

[eternal apex]

there is an option in server.properties, I don't know about spigot removing it

[boreal escarp]

best idea is to not give a fuck about kids tbh

[wary willow]

Best idea is to give people a choice.

[eternal apex]

it's also worth noting how it works

[boreal escarp]

the game has done just well since it was released until now

[eternal apex]

1.19.1 introduces cryptographically signed messages

[wary willow]

microsoft likes taking choices away from users

[eternal apex]

every chat format plugin in existence, changes message content

meaning those signatures = nil

[sullen sorrel]

https://hub.spigotmc.org/stash/projects/SPIGOT/repos/craftbukkit/browse/src/main/java/org/bukkit/craftbukkit/entity/CraftPlayer.java#241
traced back from the serverbound chat packet

unless I'm missing something, but this is what's called after the chat event from what I could see

[wary willow]

yes. but have you heard that if messages are not sent in order players get kicked? apparently that's a thing

so no more async message processing

they want to move the chat formatting to resource packs

[eternal apex]

oh yeah I heard someone complain about that

[boreal escarp]

lol

[sullen sorrel]

well if the message processing is held on 1 other thread then it'd still be sent in order

[wary willow]

so you don't remove the signature

[boreal escarp]

doesn't that also cause some console warning

[sullen sorrel]

wdym

[boreal escarp]

like "is client/server not sync"

[sullen sorrel]

on the client or server console

[boreal escarp]

server

[eternal apex]

I'm not sure it's possible to stop this

[wary willow]

yeah maybe. but that doesn't mean its a good thing?

[boreal escarp]

[07:51:44 WARN]: Nightmqrish sent expired chat: 'yup'. Is the client/server system time unsynchronized?
someone sent this in one of the support channels the other day

[wary willow]

like they could just as well give us an official option

[sullen sorrel]

🤔 interesting

[boreal escarp]

making such a game "children friend" is stupid imo

[sullen sorrel]

assuming you're talking about the async chat thing that blitz was saying

[boreal escarp]

especially that there's no such thing as official servers

[wary willow]

its always the same bullshit with microsoft. just taking away options. that's what I hate the most. I hate the global banning as well.

[boreal escarp]

idk what cause that dkim, I just say it a few times

[sullen sorrel]

oh also did you know that snooper settings option or whatever was removed

[short topaz]

chat preview solves this

[sullen sorrel]

from what i heard

so it's just forcefully enabled

[eternal apex]

what's that emilia

[short topaz]

microsoft has nothing to do with this feature

[wary willow]

microsoft still sucks

[short topaz]

i won't argue with that, but they're not touching anything here

[boreal escarp]

I mean, at this point doesn't matter who added this bullshit

[short topaz]

a way for the server to send modified messages to the client while the client is still typing so the client can sign the formatted message

you also don't need resource packs for custom chat types, that was a misconception

[eternal apex]

ok my point is

this can't be enforced

[boreal escarp]

what does chat preview do?

[wary willow]

well

[eternal apex]

they can make it as easy as possible to implement, but it can't be enforced

[wary willow]

yes it can

they can just start kicking everyone that sends an unsigned message

ez

[sullen sorrel]

🥲

[eternal apex]

how do you know it wasn't signed by the sender?

[short topaz]

it's true it can't be enforced

but as of currently it's not reasonable to argue about this because it's not a complete feature

the release was delayed

[sullen sorrel]

plus, there are mods already to disable signing

[eternal apex]

all communication goes through the server, so the server has control

[sullen sorrel]

the packet

[short topaz]

paper (and spigot) don't even use player chat packets yet

[sullen sorrel]

has the info

[eternal apex]

the packet...

which goes to the server

the server can then sign the message with its own key

and the receiver won't know the difference

[sullen sorrel]

Well

no I don't think so

[eternal apex]

because the receiver doesn't have access to the sender's key

because the sender can only send their key through the server

[sullen sorrel]

does it send the key to the server?

[short topaz]

what key are you using

[sullen sorrel]

I thought it just sends the crypto stuff

[short topaz]

you only get one key per account

[wary willow]

yeah but all this could've been avoided with some communication. but why do that.

[fallow crow]

Can always just make a cracked server

[short topaz]

they are communicating right now, what do you think prereleases are for

[fallow crow]

Nobody asked for this though

[wary willow]

I mean from the start.

[sullen sorrel]

isn't it

Client uses key to sign a message
the signature is sent to the server

in order to report, that same signature which is linked to the message and the account has to be accessible by the receiver

[wary willow]

we are animals. We see red, we charge and we won't stop if the color changes after lol.

[sullen sorrel]

and the server doesn't know the sender's key

[short topaz]

im sure plenty of people asked for this, i.e. parents

[long summit]

It isn't a bad feature, it's just not well implemented yet

[short topaz]

it's not implemented at all yet

[boreal escarp]

I guess this was on the to-do list, right next to "update end" and "add some more useful features", which would take much more time to implement 🤡

[boreal escarp]

tbh if they make it so the reports go to the server staff, that is more than perfect

[eternal apex]

to verify the signature, the receiver needs the sender's public key

to get that public key, it has to go through the server

[sullen sorrel]

yes but not its private key

[eternal apex]

however it could also go through mojang api

[sullen sorrel]

true

[boreal escarp]

PiggyPiglet, sha key pro

[sullen sorrel]

like its auth servers or something

[eternal apex]

yes

that'd require client side mods to fix

[wary willow]

what I'd love to see is mojang giving servers the choice to enable this, and then give parents the choice to block servers that disabled this choice or like show a big warning when joining the servers. I wouldn't mind at all

[fallow crow]

No

[wary willow]

also no global banning maybe

[eternal apex]

why not?

[fallow crow]

iirc they do have a warning when joining multiplayer servers

[wary willow]

a

yeah. but like I Mean saying this server is not moderated

didn't meant to send the a. btw

[fallow crow]

Ah

[fallow crow]

Client on launch receives from Mojang both private and public key (encrypted with all the session auth jazz already), client on server join sends the public key to the server

[eternal apex]

I'm talking hypotheticals emily

to actually make it enforceable

[fallow crow]

It's session based

[eternal apex]

I assumed this was the case, and as the case, it is easily bypassed

[fallow crow]

I mean you can't make anything enforceable in the world of modifications

[eternal apex]

well when I say enforceable

basically meaning can't be bypassed without client side mod

[short topaz]

i'm sure adding a warning that says "this server allows content which is illegal internationally" is sure to be well-received outside your echo chamber

[fallow crow]

We should have servers that allow grooming and harassment obviously

[light scaffold]

I love harassment

[long summit]

Ofc

[fallow crow]

If you get triggered by harassment (Emily) maybe don't play multiplayer games

Just a thought

[light scaffold]

...

[short topaz]

what the hell

[fallow crow]

😂

[fading grove]

Harassment doesn’t always mean it has to be from random people

[light scaffold]

my brother in christ minecraft is quite literally a childrens game (a game for children)

[long summit]

Harassment is pretty hard to solve though, I mean look at league of legends (which also has chat reporting)

[short topaz]

chat reporting is meaningless if it isn't enforced

which could also very well happen here

[eternal apex]

the solution for harrassment is changing people's attitudes to online harrassment

realise that these words on the screen are meaningless

censorship is not the answer for harrassment

as in bullying

a clear distinction needs to be made there because obviously children are vulnerable to other issues, like grooming, that can have real life consequences

[light scaffold]

maybe a hot take but saying slurs on the internet is bad actually

[fading grove]

Not to mention real life harassment is so much worse than the internet

[analog marlin]

worse how

[light scaffold]

obviously yeah you can just shrug it off but that doesn't mean it's ok to say it

[eternal apex]

why

without reaction these words become meaningless

I mean why shouldn't we just shrug it off, I'm not condoning saying them

[light scaffold]

sure yeah

It's just pixels on the internet

[fading grove]

I mean just saying being harassed from someone in real life is much worse than words on a monitor

[mellow wedge]

I've found it easy to shrug off after being on the webs for so long

[light scaffold]

But it's a kids game where people will not always be capable of shrugging it off

[mellow wedge]

I think I got in at a "good" time

[analog marlin]

i think both are equally bad, i don't think real life is implicitly worse

[mellow wedge]

^

[analog marlin]

obviously assuming it's verbal for each case

[mellow wedge]

also "real life" what do you mean by that? Strangers vs not strangers?

[long summit]

They are equally bad just depends on the person, some deal with it better than others

[mellow wedge]

just online? text?

[fading grove]

People you know vs random people I guess

[eternal apex]

I have to agree with pulse here, real life is always worse

[long summit]

Not always

[light scaffold]

the difference is that you're unlikely to speaking with complete strangers in real life

[eternal apex]

let's say you're getting harrassed in school, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop yourself from having to see this person every day

online, there's a block button

[fading grove]

^^ this

The reason why I have been gone in the past months is because a friend harassed me

And they sat next to me in so many periods

[mellow wedge]

yep, physical interaction vs just a bit of data

[fading grove]

Teacher ain’t gonna do jack shit about it

[analog marlin]

well conversly what if you have online school and you get harassed by a fellow student, vs when you go to a coffee shop and get harrassed by a stranger

which is worse

[fading grove]

The difference is you know that student

[mellow wedge]

student

because you know them and they know you

[sullen sorrel]

btw is there nothing you can do to get them to switch classes?
For me you can fill out a form so that they won't be in any of your classes

[mellow wedge]

gets more under your skin

[fading grove]

Oh helll nah

[analog marlin]

so it's not online vs irl but people you know vs people you don't

[sullen sorrel]

oh 💀

[mellow wedge]

[mellow zinc]

sure yeah its just some words on a screen, but people shouldnt have to come to that conclusion. the attitude change needs to come from the source, the people harassing others. obviously easier said than done but yeah

[fading grove]

I mean ngl I don’t know any of you guys personally lol

[mellow wedge]

if you're in a community across the world, and really bonded with them

[analog marlin]

idot

get harrassed

[mellow wedge]

then got bullied by them

[fading grove]

Lol

[short topaz]

until it bleeds into real life which can happen

[mellow wedge]

ya... then you have the best of both worlds!

[eternal apex]

the people harassing others
this is intrinsic human behaviour, it can't be taught out of existence, it will always exist

[fading grove]

I was getting both online and real life harassment 💀

It was not fun

[eternal apex]

the only solution is to change the reaction

[mellow wedge]

"even with only 1000 people left, there's still war" or somehting like that

[eternal apex]

you cannot change the source

you've got to be kidding me

[mellow zinc]

well yeah, but mitigating it as much as possible is better

[eternal apex]

bm how did that get blocked

"asshole"

[light scaffold]

Fuck knows

[eternal apex]

what is going on with this automod

[light scaffold]

see that's alright

[mellow wedge]

that's why I smoke all the weed and ignore all the people

[fading grove]

Ass

[light scaffold]

arsehole

[mellow wedge]

weed isn't censored? 😂

[light scaffold]

Lol

[mellow wedge]

😮

[agile robin]

If it goes from online to irl that's when authorities should get involved. I know they suck at taking it seriously though

[fading grove]

Marijuana

[fading grove]

Depends

[eternal apex]

on another note, this word is actually racist apparently

[analog marlin]

i think i agree with what pig is saying

[fading grove]

What?

[light scaffold]

what

[fading grove]

I was using it for the drug name of course

[eternal apex]

yes

as a word, for the drug, it is racist

[fading grove]

How

[wary willow]

don't talk about that in minecraft dude. you'll get permanently banned.

[fading grove]

What

[wary willow]

don't you dare say "Weed"

[fallow crow]

That is not the issue if you're a dickhead

[mellow wedge]

oh no the horror

[wary willow]

what will we do cj?

[mellow wedge]

roblox might ban me too

[eternal apex]

when weed was first prohibited in the unites states, they called it marijuana, and marihuana, as they look like mexican words (or are mexican words?). Lots of americans didn't like mexicans, so naturally they got support for banning it

[wary willow]

oh no

[light scaffold]

I think xiumavoid's video about the chat reporting sums it up best

[fading grove]

I didn’t know that 💀

[wary willow]

which one? he made like 5

[mellow wedge]

ya, weed in america is a crazy racist history

[wary willow]

of them

xD

[light scaffold]

Idk whichever one is says "it's not that bad" in

[wary willow]

b

ut

[eternal apex]

I only saw the first video I think

[wary willow]

then he made a video saying the others are right as well

so now?

what do we do

[eternal apex]

and then every country followed yours 😦

[light scaffold]

Least racist american history moment

[mellow wedge]

ya...

to both of those statements

[fallow crow]

So the victims should not be given the tools to deal with it?

[fading grove]

Is it true that spigot’s chat signing system is so broken that chat reporting doesn’t work

[boreal escarp]

is not a bug, is a feature

[fading grove]

Lol

[light scaffold]

I think my favourite moment is that senator that hated black people so much he talked for 25 hours straight to stop the civil rights act from passing

Sums america up perfectly

[wary willow]

and this sarcasm will get you banned permanently from minecraft

bm

good job

[eternal apex]

They should absolutely have tools to deal with it

what those tools are is where we are in disagreement

[light scaffold]

Doubt

[boreal escarp]

knives are a good sart

[wary willow]

you better start using that /s at the end from now on

[long summit]

I like the report system, it just needs some work to be better
I do hate what they are doing to bedrock though, that one is complete censoring, like on signs, item names, etc

[eternal apex]

well bedrock is actually for kids

[agile robin]

He didn't stop at all?

[light scaffold]

nobody above the age of 7 plays bedrock anyway

[eternal apex]

so idgaf about that

but lots of adults play java

lots of questionable role playing servers

[mellow wedge]

oh boy

[boreal escarp]

'questionable'

[light scaffold]

I don't think so, it's kinda crazy

The filibuster is wild

[fallow crow]

Tell me a single game where this exact system is an actual issue

[eternal apex]

no other game is comparable to minecraft in this sense

[wary willow]

helpchat automod discord server

[eternal apex]

literally none

[fallow crow]

Minecraft is not unique

[wary willow]

is this enough?

[eternal apex]

minecraft is entirely unique in a global chat reporting system, while having non-official community hosted servers

[fading grove]

Yeah Minecraft has a mixed audience

[boreal escarp]

to begin with, minecraft has no "official" servers

[eternal apex]

I do not know of a single game comparable to that

[mellow zinc]

what is roblox reporting system like

[agile robin]

I don't think I could talk about it for 25 hrs as a whole not just focused on stopping it my god

[mellow zinc]

i feel like that could be comparable

[fallow crow]

There are thousands of games targeted to children with official report systems in place

[light scaffold]

That's why it's so fucking funny lmao

[fallow crow]

Name a single one where it's an issue

[eternal apex]

I cannot, because none of these games are comparable to minecraft

[wary willow]

yes but it wasn't before either. So many games had/have unofficial servers that were/are not moderated by the game and this hasn't been a problem.

[long summit]

I'd say ark is pretty similar to mc on having non-official servers and stuff, idk if there is a report system in the game though so can't compare it either hmm

[eternal apex]

ark definitely doesn't have reporting lol

or if they do no one uses it

ark players are a different breed

[mellow wedge]

does gmod?

[fallow crow]

It hasn't been a problem you've heard of, I do know more than one case where not having something like this has been a problem

[mellow wedge]

I don't think so

[young mortar]

nope

[light scaffold]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond_filibuster_of_the_Civil_Rights_Act_of_1957 worth a read @agile robin

[fallow crow]

Just because you haven't heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it isn't

[light scaffold]

The dude dehydrated himself before so he wouldn't have to go to the bathroom

[boreal escarp]

guys' name is Storm Trooper

[long summit]

Apparently there is a way to report a player but you're supposed to send a screenshot of it

[young mortar]

yeah the whole global reporting and bans system with 99.99% unofficial servers is really bizarre

[boreal escarp]

https://giphy.com/gifs/star-wars-gif-stormtrooper-DtrguqHYeHJv2

[eternal apex]

doesn't that apply to the side you're arguing?

[wary willow]

...

[mellow wedge]

yep

[fallow crow]

I'm arguing in favour of having chat report

[young mortar]

what lmao

[eternal apex]

well in the immediate context, I was arguing that minecraft is solely unique in this

[young mortar]

maybe on an opt-in basis sure

[fallow crow]

Blitz mentioned not having it has never been a problem which cannot be further from the truth

[eternal apex]

there exists no other game that I'm aware of, where all servers are non official and community hosted, yet there exists a global chat moderation system

[young mortar]

I mean it's good to have moderation on official servers or when people want it

[boreal escarp]

or moderated by the server staff

[young mortar]

the problem is the huge amount of overreach

global moderators, not understanding context, global permabanning people

[mellow zinc]

.

[mellow wedge]

to me it just doesn't make sense

[mellow wedge]

doesn't work

[eternal apex]

roblox games aren't comparable either

[fading grove]

Lol

[mellow wedge]

but roblox is also different

[eternal apex]

they're all hosted by roblox aren't they?

[mellow wedge]

roblox is a sole platform

[mellow zinc]

are they?

[mellow wedge]

all on roblox servers

yes

[mellow zinc]

ive never played roblox 💀

[young mortar]

lol

[eternal apex]

I have but idk how it works

[mellow wedge]

people just make "experiences" people can visit

[young mortar]

yeah nobody self hosts roblox stuff

[mellow wedge]

and they have actual messages, sales between players, etc.

[eternal apex]

roblox like minehut but you can upload your own code too

[boreal escarp]

servers are hosted by roblox, but that doesn't mean they are official, they are made by other users

[young mortar]

yeah but they're hosted by roblox

[wary willow]

ugh. well have you never played any other game? cs 1.6, cs go, fivem

[long summit]

Minecraft is very unique, so it is pretty complicated to find the right solution
But it's going in the right direction, but needs more work

[wary willow]

oh wait

I've only read 1 part of the message

lmaoo sorry pig

[young mortar]

yeah csgo and fivem? lmao

[mellow wedge]

gmod

[mellow zinc]

csgo community servers

[mellow wedge]

tf2?

[wary willow]

yeah star but those don't have moderation

[mellow zinc]

i havent heard of anyone getting banned from reports, but yeah

[fading grove]

tabg lol

[wary willow]

he was saying, games like that with moderation

[light scaffold]

fucking TF2 moderation lmao

[wary willow]

not without

[mellow wedge]

ah ye ye

[eternal apex]

it doesn't exist

for a reason

and mojang is challenging that

[boreal escarp]

I think fivem is different, being something built on top of gtav

[eternal apex]

and I sincerely hope they fail

[young mortar]

i mean it doesn't really matter the whole precedent thing

the moral of the story is that this is fucking dumb

[mellow wedge]

it's not a platform

[young mortar]

and a huge overreach that will drastically affect so many server owners

[long summit]

In the topic of moderation, apparently Valorant is going to add AI moderation to moderate voice chat

[boreal escarp]

all we can hope for is that they will make it better

[eternal apex]

smh

[wary willow]

man, the same people probably are fine with their gouvernments and other companies spying on them "For safety reasons".

[mellow wedge]

wtf

[eternal apex]

I imagine most people use discord though anyway?

[mellow zinc]

valorant can just be uninstalled

[boreal escarp]

but starting with them moderating the reports, doesn't give me too much hope

[mellow zinc]

dw about that game

[mellow wedge]

yep, just discord lmao

[young mortar]

not the associated rootkit 😉

[mellow wedge]

wait, discord is next

[mellow zinc]

😵‍💫

[boreal escarp]

lol matt

[agile robin]

Oh I can see that going well, ai is notoriously good at correctly listening to voice 🤦‍♂️

[eternal apex]

why is noise suppression so shit on windows

[fading grove]

Depends ig

[long summit]

Oh yes, it'll definitely be great

[eternal apex]

krisp and rtx voice both fucking suck

[mellow wedge]

discord?

[fading grove]

But I don’t see them having a good training set

Lol

[boreal escarp]

cant wait to get banned for having a bad accent or a voice crack

[mellow wedge]

o

I actually thought they worked quite well

[eternal apex]

cube complains literally every time I use them

[mellow wedge]

my friend has a fan right next to his mic

[fading grove]

Some words are racial slurs in different languages than other languages

[mellow wedge]

and I can never hear it

[wary willow]

also. I wonder what mojang will do about different languages?

[mellow wedge]

actually insane

[fading grove]

Black in Spanish

[wary willow]

[analog marlin]

do we know how exactly mojang will moderate the reported chat messages

[eternal apex]

he complains I get cut off all the time and it distorts my voice significantly, randomly

[analog marlin]

like do they have a team that reviews every report

[wary willow]

manually

[eternal apex]

it's ai ivan

[mellow wedge]

f

[wary willow]

that;s what they said. team of people

[eternal apex]

I thought they said it was ai

[wary willow]

no. they mentioned they'll have a team of people

[boreal escarp]

I sometimes mix romanian and english while talking, and we have some casual words that are "inappropriate" in english

[fading grove]

Yeah

[wary willow]

but that's not any better. imagine all you do all day is go thru report messages. you'll probably die inside and will just end up banning everyone lol

[boreal escarp]

OH WOW

[eternal apex]

yeah ok this auto mod needs to be turned off

[wary willow]

yup...

[mellow wedge]

lmao

[analog marlin]

with how popular minecraft is the team will have to be pretty big

[wary willow]

I Was literally going to say it

[mellow wedge]

fucking hen tai c um

[wary willow]

but then remembered

[eternal apex]

cum

go nuts

[mellow zinc]

cum

[long summit]

Discord's noise suppression is fucking bizarre, sometimes it makes desktop audio bleed out into the mic

[boreal escarp]

cum

[mellow wedge]

😮

[fading grove]

cum

[mellow wedge]

nuts? can't say that

[boreal escarp]

Pig: freedom

[fading grove]

nuts

[analog marlin]

also did they mention how they'd avoid mass reporting

that's always an issue

[eternal apex]

cube will probably turn it back on in the morning

but you can enjoy it for a few hours

[agile robin]

Having a team to monitor every report from every MC server? That's gonna cost millions

[fading grove]

Lol there are hack clients that are implementing mass reporting

[wary willow]

by punishing fake reports I'm pretty certain

[analog marlin]

how will they punish them

[wary willow]

global ban xD

idk

lol

[boreal escarp]

"Select all > accepted"

[analog marlin]

also do they have any guidelines posted

like if i call someone an idiot enough will i be smited

[eternal apex]

yes but they're very vague

[agile robin]

If specific servers have trouble moderating their own how do they think they will handle everyone

[eternal apex]

no

[wary willow]

https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/7149823936781-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition

[eternal apex]

they specifically said they'd never ban someone for swearing

[wary willow]

official mojang post

[eternal apex]

it's pretty much just hate speech and like grooming and shit I think

[analog marlin]

that's good

[wary willow]

yeah. they removed swearing from the list of offences

[analog marlin]

i still think this is gonna go poorly though

[wary willow]

you can read this post for the official reasons.

[eternal apex]

absolutely

[fallow crow]

They also said continuous false reports (from the same player) will result in them being punished

[young mortar]

yeah we'll see about that lmao

[boreal escarp]

after the reported person is banned 🤡

[analog marlin]

i can already imagine mass reports being able to target players for saying something that could very vaguely be construed as something against the guidelines but that wouldnt be acted on unless it had hundreds of reports

[agile robin]

It's gonna turn into twitch mods, where they sometimes allow it and then ban for it other days

[analog marlin]

yeah

[boreal escarp]

Global moderation can't go good, period.

[eternal apex]

aight 1:50 am, bed time

gaby shut convo down if it gets too heated, if it continues

[analog marlin]

good night pig

[light scaffold]

good morning*

[eternal apex]

yes

[fallow crow]

What better solutions do you have? You are aware Minecraft is a children's game, right? And it actually is a primary platform for groomers to target, right? And not every server has staff all the time to moderate it, right? And no, your server isn't private, you still go through Mojang auth and must agree to EULA, right?

[analog marlin]

why not have it be opt-in

[light scaffold]

As I said a while ago, the ideal solution is to put Minecraft on the blockchain

[wary willow]

and that's why I don't play anymore Emily

[mellow wedge]

maybe they just add a banned-words section to server.properties 👍

[long summit]

And what if staff is the issue that needs to be reported?

[agile robin]

Even with a set of rules and stuff people will always take it into their own hands over what is bad enough and will not punish friends and such

[fallow crow]

And so it's something that doesn't need to exist?

[mellow zinc]

yeah they can use deluxechats code for that 👍

[wary willow]

I never said it shouldn't exist. I explicitly said they should add it but make it an opt in thing

[fallow crow]

There's something like that already no one uses because they don't even know how to, text-filtering or something

[long summit]

I say this because it is actually very common

[young mortar]

The point is the overreach Emily

[wary willow]

[young mortar]

I think the moderation is pretty good, the problem is the overreach

It should be opt-in

The server I work for is 18+ and people swear and shit all the time, they shouldn't be banned globally from it

[wary willow]

swearing is not banned anymore

[agile robin]

What do u mean, staff are always vetted and never cause issues

[fallow crow]

Swearijg is not a reason to be banend lmao

[wary willow]

but lets talk about drugs and underage drinking. what is underage drinking? different countries will tell you different things

[young mortar]

It was

[wary willow]

what are illegal drugs

[young mortar]

Until very recently

[wary willow]

different countries will tell you different things

[light scaffold]

I love underage drinking

[fallow crow]

"very recently", it's been more time since they removed it than it was up but okay

[long summit]

Almost like they are improving the system

[young mortar]

Great, take the final step then

Make it opt in

That's my primary concern

[long summit]

So server admins that are the groomers can just turn it off and keep doing what they are doing!

[boreal escarp]

Meh, can't agree

[fallow crow]

Can't agree with what?

[young mortar]

And you think they couldn't figure out how to not send signed chat messages?

[eternal apex]

give players a warning when they connect this server doesn't use mojang reporting

[fallow crow]

EULA?

[young mortar]

Yeah like you're literally going full Patriot Act here

[boreal escarp]

No, with your opinion.

[young mortar]

"There are some bad people, so we need to spy on everyone to stop them!"

[wary willow]

literally mentioend this above

[fallow crow]

What I said is not an opinion, it literally is true and happens

[young mortar]

Yeah, it does

But global moderation is not the way to stop that

[fallow crow]

What is?

[young mortar]

There isn't

There's no solution

[mellow wedge]

people are fucked

[young mortar]

You add global moderation, those servers will just disable it

You can't stop humans from being fucked

[sullen sorrel]

and clients*

[eternal apex]

I meannn there's some pretty radical solutions

[mellow wedge]

kill the planet

[queen jewel]

Almost got kicked out of a pg

[eternal apex]

1. kill everyone
2. drug everyone

[wary willow]

after they're dead tho

[queen jewel]

🙂

[light scaffold]

my solution would be to simply ban everyone

[fallow crow]

That's what Mojang server blacklist is for

[eternal apex]

this convo is too good to go to sleep on

[mellow wedge]

lmao

[analog marlin]

how does the blacklist even work

[fallow crow]

They take it down from auth entirely

[young mortar]

great, so we already have a solution?

[wary willow]

YOu are now permanently banned from playing online mode in minecraft for not respecting the rules!

[analog marlin]

cant they just spin up a new server on a different ip

[queen jewel]

I mean, on the other hand, those bad people could end up killing a lot of the "good" people

[boreal escarp]

Give people an option to disable this global moderation system and people that want "child friendly" servers can have the help of mojang to moderate their wonder land of a server lmao

[wary willow]

yeah but then they have to get the audience back.

[young mortar]

And they still will! Global moderation overreach doesn't do anything to stop that.

[analog marlin]

if they have a website / discord thats easy

[mellow wedge]

I thought you have to be 13+ to have a microsoft account

[young mortar]

Like people will still be fucking evil and groom people

[queen jewel]

And half of the supposedly good people will turn to shit the moment they get a complete sense of no-one will know

[young mortar]

You can't stop that from happening

[boreal escarp]

Again, what I'm saying is global moderation isn't a solution.

[eternal apex]

the blacklist bans specific dns records

iirc

[sullen sorrel]

wdym

[young mortar]

If the moderation were opt-in, it would be fine

[eternal apex]

if you have an srv for your primary record, pointing to an a or cname, it bans the a or cname

[young mortar]

The servers that want it could get it, the servers that don't won't

[queen jewel]

You cant stop it

[mellow zinc]

go to sleep pig

[queen jewel]

But you can reduce the risk

[sullen sorrel]

wait you can reverse it?

[young mortar]

Yeah by having servers that are explicitly safe for children to opt in

[eternal apex]

so what people used to do to bypass the blacklist, is have the srv constantly rotating to different records

[boreal escarp]

"not all servers have active staff all the time" - you still have to wait after mojang moderators to reach your ticket, is the same as reporting the player to the server staff and wait for them lol

[young mortar]

The server I work for is explicitly not for children

[eternal apex]

idk if that's still how it works

but basically mojang blacklist is useless

[young mortar]

We actively ban anyone under the age of 18

There's no reason Mojang should be spying on our chat messages and issuing tone-deaf global bans based on them

[boreal escarp]

and that's very understandable Star

[queen jewel]

Wait what are we talking about here?

[fallow crow]

Sure, but having the option at the moment is better than not

[analog marlin]

based

[young mortar]

Like, I am quite in favor of moderation that servers can opt in to get help!

[wary willow]

about mojang's current implementation of moderation being too much

[queen jewel]

I assumed this was some discussion about governments and citizen moderation

[young mortar]

That is a good idea!

[queen jewel]

Oh 🥲

[young mortar]

Mojang global moderation in 1.19.1 lmao

[fallow crow]

They don't spy on anyone lmfao what

[wary willow]

it was compared with that tho

[sullen sorrel]

remember that you can just disable it anyways

if it even becomes compatible with chat plugins

[queen jewel]

🤣🤣

[young mortar]

The problem is forcing it upon everyone!

[queen jewel]

Ahh

[sullen sorrel]

unless you guys are just discussing the concept

[boreal escarp]

Emily, there's no "at the moment", there's minecraft servers with hundreds of players that have run for years, I bet they dont need this feature at all

[sullen sorrel]

then ill be quiet

[young mortar]

Sending every chat message you send to Mojang isn't spying?

[fallow crow]

They are not actively sent to Mojang

[long summit]

They don't lol

[queen jewel]

I mean on a nation level, moderation is important as peoples lifes may depend on it

But in a game

Honestly its just a gimmil

[young mortar]

They are as soon as one person clicks on it

[long summit]

Only reported messages are sent to Mojang

[young mortar]

And someone could report every message

I don't want any messages on my server being sent to Mojang

That's the point

[mellow wedge]

true dat

[wary willow]

Gaby, this is the time where I'm actually happy for living in ROmania and everyone having cracked accounts LMAO. I Can just start an offline server and get haunderds of players :))))

[mellow wedge]

fuck outta here

my server

[queen jewel]

I mean, that only works woth signed messages right?

[light scaffold]

wait till you discover that mojang knows your IP too

And your username

[sullen sorrel]

Yes

[mellow wedge]

who doesn't

[queen jewel]

As long as you can disable that, it shouldn't be possible to report

[eternal apex]

and my uuid

and my token

honestly might have to gdpr it

[sullen sorrel]

and spigot disables it due to its chat api

[queen jewel]

Cant wait for microsoft to ddos me

[wary willow]

but what if I report someone for underaged drinking? DO I have to provide evidence of them being underaged?

[fallow crow]

Not every server is like that

[young mortar]

Like yeah, I think we need to define the issue here, I am in favor of moderation help from Mojang when server owners want it. My problem is that it's global moderation that you can't disable as part of the game.

[wary willow]

And that's why we ask for an opt-in 😭

[young mortar]

Exactly! So the servers that want it, can have it, and the servers that don't, don't!

[wary willow]

same here.

[sullen sorrel]

so if it was an option in server.properties

[boreal escarp]

If you dont have a few staff members, you also dont have too many players in most of the cases, wdym emily?

[mellow wedge]

opt-in would be nice

[light scaffold]

They will literally send people to kill you if you say shit

[queen jewel]

Well, to counter that.
Their moderation would be useless if its disablable by the offender

[fallow crow]

Having players does not necessarily equate to having tons of staff but okay

peace, brother

[mellow wedge]

because apparently they do have text-filtering or some shit for vanilla, but obviously that has to be setup

[young mortar]

Yeah so don't play on servers without Mojang protection if you're concerned

Show a big warning when they join!

[sullen sorrel]

clients can install mods to disable this too

[wary willow]

just on bedrock

[mellow wedge]

pig had the solution

[mellow wedge]

o

[queen jewel]

Nah, they just send a windows update to you to waste some of your time as compensiom

[young mortar]

Like they already do when you click Multiplayer for the first time

[wary willow]

🤣

[mellow wedge]

nah, it says java as well

[mellow zinc]

i dont have an opinion on the matter quite yet as its not even out yet, but people be saying for it to be opt-in, when i think if that were to be a thing i think it would be better to be an opt-out process instead

[mellow wedge]

on the wiki

[queen jewel]

I meant as in if the client can opt out

[wary willow]

I wouldn't mind that either!

[young mortar]

Sure, as long as server owners who don't want Mojang spying on their chat messages can stop them from doing it.

[boreal escarp]

the curse of disabling chat moderation: the person has to go trough 3 windows updates every day