Make PvP Great AGAIN

[gentle vapor]

ah no I was talking about the droppable bullshit lol

[stable hull]

That's not griefing

Anyway, I too am willing to participate in a discussion and answer questions about PvP

[gentle vapor]

no, it's just wasted time :P

it's intended design though

[old arch]

dont 😂

[vestal kayak]

Anywho! so two lines of effort so far.

1. add in an item you purchase for X amount that drops on death and allows turning off safety for pvp in pvp areas. This gives pirates some skin in the game. also allow 5% drop on death. (another thing i just thought of, if they have to purchase these items to pvp its going to be more worthwhile to roam than to try and blockade entrences to stronghold, people coming out of stronghold wont have anything worth dropping, but the pirates would)

2. changes/tweaks to anatolia to add roaming bosses and additional pvp/pve opportunities as outlined by swole and others.

Any thoughts on how you'd balance the cost of the pvp item?

im thinking ship bound. possibly based on % total MC cost of gear onboard?

[gentle vapor]

that would be hard to do considering not everything has an MC value

[vestal kayak]

I wonder if there is any historical data the devs get that could work for that.

[gentle vapor]

nor would it be reasonable to go by that, considering people can just say "hey this green redbeard gear is actually 600 tril"

[sudden schooner]

The game already has an internal "value" of an item it generates, scrap value is capped to 1B, and repair costs are a fraction of it I think.

[gentle vapor]

then that could be used, maybe

[sudden schooner]

But it's an imperfect measurement since some items are harder to acquire.

[vestal kayak]

maybe..but there are a lot of items that are zero cost.

[gentle vapor]

lots of problems, each have to be tackled

[sudden schooner]

Just to entertain your idea Goldstar, I think having a pvp toggle would be interesting, some games have that where you consent into PVP -- I think WOW has it too. But I'd be happier if there was incentive to consent into PVP, like being locked into a PVP flag for X minutes, not being able to Tow, having different set of rules, etc. It's just hard to make the pve's want to enable the flag unless they get something, like better loot droprates or something, honestly idk.

[gentle vapor]

I remember when PvP talk was brought up before that I and some other guys suggested something along the lines of what Pirate Galaxy does with their "Pirate mode"

Where once you toggle it on you can't pull out unless you get popped.

[sudden schooner]

Yeah.

Tibia has a system where you get skulls which actually punishes habitual pvpers which was interesting.

[gentle vapor]

There's incentives in PG about it to have extra XP, but we could have it give extra loot or stuff because XP is not hugely important here.

There's ways to make it attractive.

[vestal kayak]

I really think if there was a way to make it attractive both to pvp and to BE pvped that would go a long way. The way i see it anything that was just a straight drop rate without some reciprical cost from the pirates to do the pirating isnt attractive. They dont risk anything for it under the current system.

[sudden schooner]

I also feel like I am kinda describing Anatolia in an essence. Especially earlier when I said "higher risk vs. higher reward" and . I will read swole's anatolia thingy context.

[sudden schooner]

I think if there's a content zone or place where it costs to get in, it might atleast provide a floor to the minimum cost for pirates.

Honestly nothing will stop a dedicated pirate.

[vestal kayak]

I dont think the goal is to deter piracy, more to make the pvp experiance something that gets people more interested in it.

[sudden schooner]

Yeah I agree, I was just saying the issue is 0 cost

[vestal kayak]

yup.

[gilded lagoon]

u dont trick people into liking pvp. you make pvp fun then people come

[old arch]

you know people still cry about it

[gentle vapor]

people will cry about anything, at any given point in time

[old arch]

No pvp is fun pvp

[sudden schooner]

that's a noble trueism but i just don't see how to incentivize people to pvp without some form of rewarding progression/loot. otherwise the pve-ers and pvp-ers will be seperate player bases.

[gilded lagoon]

it just depends on what kind of game you want

most people seemed to be arguing in favor of extraction shooter style (i've never played one so i'm unsure). i was advocating for a wow style pvp

you can have all the progression you want from pvp, not arguing against that, im in favor of it

[sudden schooner]

i have no wow experience so can't speak to it, but I am interested in what makes pvp in that game fun. Is it the fact that you have a lot of spells/cds to use and it makes you think? Is there a lot of rewarding aspect to player skill vs just having the right gear?

Is it always constrained squad sizes? e.g. 3v3 10v10

Do special pvp zones have easier to get gear/special gear to reduce the power gaps

etc

I love tarkov and extraction shooter style games, and they are very addicting. Star sonata feels like a genre mix of it because you have item based progression, but it's a space ship simulator instead.

Some of the recent pvp content feels looter extractiony

Would a wow battlegrounds type thingy work nice in star sonata, and same with the pvp ranking dueling 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc?

(sorry for all the questions lol)

[gilded lagoon]

well there's multiple forms of pvp. i'd categorize them in order of "importance" as ranked arenas, ranked battlegrounds then everything else. which includes unranked arenas, battlegounds and random world pvp. from what i know most people played unranked battlegrounds and ranked arenas. they each have their own "instance", other than random world encounters (meaning people you pvp walking around or in specific zones in the world). arenas would be 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5. bg 10v10, 15v15, 20v20 and 40v40. you dont lose anything by dying. winning/losing a match you get some rewards (a lot more if you win), and mmr change if it's ranked

i should say that in my very limited experience i think larger scale pvp would be better balanced for ss. anything in the 1v1 or 2v2 terrain is going to fail miserably due to imbalance (it fails in wow and it's much better balanced)

those extraction shooter thingies dont have classes right? everybody is the same?

[sudden schooner]

In tarkov you are a person with skills and gear, no classes but you get better stuff based on how long you played and what skills you've trained, etc. What gear you have, whether if you looted it, unlocked it via a mission, or crafted it. It resets every wipe so people start from 0 and progress into the end game as the player base also gets more into the end game.

[gilded lagoon]

so no classes and it' specifically designed to be pvp

[sudden schooner]

yeah, pvp is a guantee, unless you are specifically playing rat-like and avoiding people

[sudden schooner]

i do think there is a good point here, if something is seen to be imbalanced in a hypoethical 1v1 or 2v2 terrain, maybe that's a sign for ss devs to take a look and maybe balance it? I'm not sure if we expect engineers to hold their own against zerks, or vice versa though.

[gentle vapor]

"git gud"

[sudden schooner]

I think player skill is a factor, yeah. But some aspect of class imbalance might be highlighted.

[gilded lagoon]

out of everything that can be done, balancing the 1v1 of game with broken identities for classes is probably the most futile to attempt, imo

but in an environment where there's more people it's much easier

for example in wow you can play weird specs in bgs that would never work in a 1v1 scenario, because there's people covering u and generalized chaos

in ss terms, if we had capture the flag bgs, you could probably make some engineer build shine

[sudden schooner]

I see yeah. I think that'd be interesting to see in star sonata. All the stuff you discussed.

[gilded lagoon]

i dont think it'll happen but one can dream

[latent plover]

For the pvp enabler item I was just thinking it'd scale with tech level like gear glue used to

[dense meteor]

That is the crux of the discussion. PvP is here to stay. How do we make it actually lucrative and fun?

[dense meteor]

I think in a true class based game, its unreasonable to think that every class will be able to do the same thing.

I like the unique identity that comes with class specification. Practically, I do not think that each class should be able to contest every other class in isolation BUT each class likely has a matchup that is favorable for them.

This system is present in other MMOs and its basically a classic Rock-Paper-Scissors game. One example of this is D.C. Universe online which is a D.C. comics superhero MMO. In that game there are like 9 Powers and those powers are grouped into 3 main classes: Tank, Healer and Controller. Healers are weaker to Controller skills, Controllers are weak to Tank Skills, and Tanks are weak to healer skills.

In some cases, we see similar make-up within SS where a Gunner beats Engi who beats Seer who beats Ranger. These are not guarantees but class skills naturally give a leg up to certain classes vs others.

[dense meteor]

Engineer is pretty strong within a group context. It is a support class and it is meant to be stronger within that environment. It has so much utility it offers.

[slow violet]

Why does the attacker in pvp need to risk something. They've already invested many hours camping a galaxy waiting for a fish to come along

[swift osprey]

Once more, adding another lens from a newbie POV, which I hope you guys carry over in the actual discussion/design of the system:

We currently feel the current PvP system sucks, but it sucks royally to non end gamers as well who are on the receiving side of the podding.

How is a noob who just got into T23 grind trackers/DGs if every 1-2 tracker/DG I get podded by a pirate and then get camped, redo again, lose tracker etc.? Forget making it worthwhile to defend against pirates through the drop system (at this point we are still at trackers and DGing stage and not 3 desist drops from matri stage :p so no way can gear up to that). This is something I feel this thread in its entirety has not addressed.

I for one have not been able to progress in the past 4-5 days because no matter where I am in KD, there is like 3 seers who are traveling and somehow find me, literally between every other tracker/DG

Please do NOT respond with:

• Gear up better for PvP. There is a reason I am doing trackers/DGs and not farming matri.
• Rely on team support to kill the seers (I would understand for something like a matri drop or for IC event but not for DGing/trackers). Plus its not like there is a plethora of players available around the clock, the game population is small right now and my timezone might not fit everyone else
• You are not ready for KD. Well, then the farming is restricted to solarian gear / bindo from peril space until I make tens of billions to gear up, which I am sure is not sensible ?

and by the way, why are pirates always seer? because its a class best fit for PvP. We would be having a completely different conversation if I was facing a pirate who is an engineer or an FC traveling in a 130-180 speed high-vis ship 🙂 Seer class has an inherent advantage so hard to counteract

Cancel the Seer class and I automatically feel pvp balancing becomes much easier and actually a fun duel. U see them coming. U are able to still shoot at them when they are 4k away and not 0 vis. U can still chase them. U can run away from them if u want. They need to repair drones/slaves or take slaves out of statis. This is not a reasonable solution because some peopel want to play seer for PvP aspect, but some people want to play for pve aspect as well hence the balance becomes insanely difficult because one person is playing to screw me while I am playing to screw AI. It's a mismatch at a fundamental level.

In the other game examples mentioned above, you would have a wizard pirate attack a wizard player who was doing PvE content. in game skills and abilities are the same. Not some dude who can insta teleport behind my Shujaa that takes 2 secoonds to rotate (example)

[deft rock]

I promise you that a pirate that vastly out gears you is going to 1 tap you on any class and you wouldn’t be able to run

End game gunners, zerks, SDs etc are tanky and do millions of dps

Seer is chosen to give them ambush advantage but they could just park a gunner in the gal and you’d be griefed the same

You’d just choose not to fight, and complain that you still can’t do your DGs

There’s no real solution that anyone is going to be happy with. I don’t think making KD an extraction zone like Tarkov or Ark raiders is really a good idea either personally. It will just make more noobs complain that they are getting podded and losing their loot on top of that

Right now there’s barely any loss and adding a loss or secondary objective to prevent loss, is just going to make more people unhappy

And making an attacker pay to attack is also silly. In this game you already have to sit for hours and wait to see the same 1-3 people you saw already.

[swift osprey]

I disagree about gunner parking being the same. Speed is also inherentily lower, + they would not want to park a gunner because if an end gamer pop ups they might be attacked. or if a team is called, u cannot hide, its a bigger headache to be a pirate as a gunner, but I am with you on all the other points.

[deft rock]

Well in your original complaint you said that calling up your team isn’t really an option cause the player base is small

[swift osprey]

for me, but they would be facing the entire game population

[deft rock]

So you personally would still be griefed if they parked cap ships

[swift osprey]

Imagine Camo pops up then all of SRX, right now its not an issue because u can choose to hide, and wait for me to show up to kill

basically, it makes the "parking" thing much harder

[deft rock]

They could do stealth SDs and rangers too

[swift osprey]

I would for sure, any end gamer in any class would screw me, even an ShM, but in the larger picture, it will be more difficult for them to do that

yes ranger is one for sure, but the speed and agility is much lower meaning its difficult for them to simply roam around

SD I have not played so I cannot really comment with any value :p

[deft rock]

They don’t have to roam, all they have to do is camp popular routes

SD is stealth and will insta kill you from further than a seer

Seer is just a bit easier to build out for 1 shots

You’re most likely flying the same exact route every time to fly out to do DGs and trackers. These guys can be taking a dump with their head set on and they will know when someone warped through

It’s not rocket science

[swift osprey]

I hear you. BTW I was not dismissing any other suggestion nor providing one, was just voicing my pain points on what is essentially a "softer" system (being the one live right now) in hopes they get incorporated into the next system (which people are trying to make a harsher one). from a mid-gamer POV

[deft rock]

Yeah I guess my main point is that it’s not seer that’s the issue. If seer got removed or changed, they’d just use something else to camp you. I actually don’t think there’s a good solution for PvP that pvpers will actually enjoy long term

[lilac karma]

If pvp actually lasted like 10+mins then it might be "enjoyable"

Getting 1 shot dont sound fun

[deft rock]

It does when you fight team vs team

But yeah if you are a noob and getting podded it’s not going to

I don’t really want a 1v1 to last all day though

[swift osprey]

I agree, its an immensely difficult problem. However way u look at it, problems rise.
Restrict it to levels? People will push a low lvl alt
Penalize people further? Bound to drive quitting
Go by gear type? I am sure people can outfit a damn good seer on green/blue gear

I do not envy the devs for the position they are in because its a much later topic (power creep, risk/reward, visiblity topic (saw it being discussed before) etc.

[deft rock]

A lot of times blue and green gear is superior cause of neuro forging so yes you are right for sure on that

Too many ways to cheese any systems like that

The devs kind of brought this situation on themselves through the last few years of changes

[lilac karma]

dont think i can see those seers with my shit radar :P

[deft rock]

Yeah you’re not gonna that’s the point of seer. You can make radar ships and bots to spot them though

No sense in complaining about it

[lilac karma]

do players pvp as a ranger or the 4sec rof is just ass for pvp

[deft rock]

A lot of people use Ranger for PvP yeah

[olive dock]

Every class (minus FC) is useful in PvP

[brisk coral]

FC sucks, though.

[deft rock]

FC does indeed suck

[steel raptor]

Rip FC

[stable hull]

Any end game Gunner with any sense at all can get their ship to go 400-500+ for as long as they need to.

[steel raptor]

Any endgame anything can go fast if they want too

[still hamlet]

I just don't understand why you want answers that simply, aren't the answer.

If you aren't ready to enter a pvp space cause you aren't built well enough to survive potential pvp, maybe you need to farm other avenues.

You say how can noobs get into t23 content? You can literally TW to CE or Prejudice, which typically are in E and W arms.

Also as Goldy mentioned, typically we haven't seen pirates full camping Stronghold exits. So even still you could likely find routes around them.

I am trying really hard to engage with your perspective I just feel like we aren't willing to admit that there are other possibilities of game play. It just feels like you want KD content for free. Full stop.

I really promise I'm not trying to bash. It's just KD has always been a pvp layer and it is really silly to act like it isn't the stage we are trying to figure out these changes for.

[swift osprey]

I hear you, and its not about KD content being free I assure u. In fact, It is why I never voiced any of the above before the thread opened up, because KD is a pvp layer and pvp is a part of the game as well. I do TW to prejudice if pirates are in one place. If they roam around (sometimes they do), I shift to doing other things (stellation DGs in peril etc.)

I only voiced these things because some of the ideas being suggested are around a harder pvp implementation (at least more punishing for non end-gamers) and it was only in the hopes that they would bring light to potential aspects that do not make what is essentially currently implemented even harder/worse off for a cohort of the players that are not well fit. For instance, like an idea that allow drops from content to drop on death. that effectively, and simply, forces people doing content to either being well equipped for PvP (and whatever the PvE content they were doing) or rely on a team to support their exist strategy

[vestal kayak]

Agreed, Seer does have an outsized impact though. There have been multiple players in this thread alone and other areas that have complained about the near-instant combat conclusion that comes with seer. Maybe thats something that needs looking at in another forum. There are some really good seers out there, I can only stand up to a few shots from them myself, but i give nearly as good as i get..but id consider myself pretty close if not end game and i run with pvp bots most of the time.

Seers have become SD rangers with a lot of the tweaking and gear additions and NF. I have seen them with 5kish range doing pretty good damage and at knife fighting range doing even better.

[steel raptor]

Some of the seers are strong (ish)
there is alot to be said about anti seer kit
tank bots with envelopes and strong pull tractors
spotty bots and etc
all of this makes a seers job very hard

But people wont think to build or kit out like that without a seer threat
this is why seer is good
makes people think and innovate

[vestal kayak]

those are good, but seer does a ton of damage in a very short time even without its ability to multiply that damage after the target gets below 50%. Not all of these seers are end game seers either from some admissions in SS gen which only highlights how effective the class is.

Just as no class should excel in all things, no class should be so overpowered in pvp. Stealth and radar are not very well connected in utility. stealth is either you see it or you cant and very few have the twitch responses to immediately respond.

[steel raptor]

this is the point im trying to prove though. they are not overpowered in pvp. get some energy resist and use the methods i posted above and they will literally flop over.

at the least youll make them blow their red blocker and have to 5k away which means it will be at least a minute before they re-enter the fight. if they enter too soon their blocker will be on cooldown and u can kill them. this is worst case scenario though

they are very squishy

[vestal kayak]

squishy my ass...its near impossible to kill anything that has 3 warpers unless they get too close and dont use gravwarps. But thats not my point, I think their damage is outsized.

[steel raptor]

how you kill them is quicker reaction speed. they are squishy trust me. they've yet to kill my sd or zerk or anything else i send through kd either cause i kill them or a prep for travel with blockers and oly tweaks

[vestal kayak]

they can also re-enter combat very quickly since they get regen as part of class skills. It is one of the highest defence classes when you line up the ability to simply be undetectable, warper way the hell away and have regen.

[steel raptor]

there are strategies for that too. quickly jump on them and envelope and they cant warp away

[vestal kayak]

you are also a terrible example for darn near anything damen.. I am not sure there are collectively 5 players as strong or well set up as you. lol.

[steel raptor]

there are plenty of strong players but i recognize im speaking from a position of privilige in a sense.
i been through the ringer with @next frost back before i hit this power level and it tought me alot.

[vestal kayak]

ive fought Aldir too..and I think a few of these seers even put him to shame. They are just that good.

[next frost]

just wait til i get my 2nd desist

[dense meteor]

To be honest, the things you DONT want to hear are precisely what you NEED to hear. I said it earlier and unfortunately it mostly applies to Aidelon but you can not expect to throw an Engi at everything and think its just going to work. Some classes are better suited for certain encounters.

[dense meteor]

I dont foresee the seer class being removed altogether. The issues you are facing are definitely counterable. I wont go into specific strategies in this discussion but I think more time needs to be spent attempting to counter a class.

[vestal kayak]

im pretty sure his engi is just a backup, I think hes more of a ranger main tbh.

[swift osprey]

yep ^ main ranger. Engi just because the team had that many drones laying around :p

[next frost]

agreed. my strategy and builds were always changing, srx and emf experienced this plenty of times

[dense meteor]

I think part of the issue is that there is a different interpretation of the game's current PVP state. From what I gathered, the people who do not like pvp at all have called this "the wild west".

For people who like PvP, we see this as extremely passive with low stakes. People who do not like PvP have largely been protected in the current system.

[swift osprey]

and that is completely fair. I think then the main disconnect I can observe in this thread is "what is the game meant to be". You go into CS:GO and you expect to fight other people. U go into minecraft and there is an option u can literally toggle to disable AI and focus on building. If the direction is to gear against PvP, upskill, figure out strategies to counter seer, and adopt to their builds and class advantages, carry around energy diffusers etc. then the discussion should not be about how to implement PvP but rather the game's PvP appetite

[deft rock]

Yeah, you’ll see soon that you really can’t reason with these people that think the current state is “Wild West” or the ones that say they get “content denied”. Especially when these are long time players that know better. I understand a newbie not knowing how to handle a pirate but we are seeing decades long players having a melt down over a 500m repair bill and 1.5 minute stasis time

[dense meteor]

This is a softer system for sure but yes, I think a harsher system is needed. It would be fun if people can also progress through PvP.

[deft rock]

The only way I can see them making PvP progression related is if they mimic world of warcrafts “war mode” where you basically “turn on” PvP in a major city (or Sol for SS) and it puts you in a different instance with other people flagged for PvP. In return for the PvP “risk” you get bonus xp and loot drops from KD and DGs. If you are not flagged for PvP you get less.

So you’d have the pvp instance that gives say 25% more loot over all compared to the standard, and they can reduce the loot given compared to standard for people that aren’t flagged up. Perhaps 25% less than what you get now. That way you are rewarded for taking risk and slower to progress if you don’t want to take any risk

No loot drops on death, just chaos for bonus loot. Everyone wins, even the people that have melt downs when they get podded cause they can opt out and progress slower

[gilded lagoon]

i agree. have pvp disabled by default and give pvp enabled players 25% extra loot on everything. probably the easiest thing to code too
but i dont think that'll make pvpers happy tho

[swift osprey]

Arguably the most realistic suggestion

[deft rock]

I think they would. I’d argue for the numbers to be higher though. More loot for pvpers and less loot for non pvpers

Gives people an incentive to flag up

[gilded lagoon]

well if the number is too high you might as well not have it in the first place but i see what u mean

[deft rock]

Yeah I just mean that the difference should be substantial and non pvpers should get less loot than they currently do in the game. So the increase from what is current doesn’t have to be a TON but the gap should be noticeable imo

And in the pvp instance , all the bosses will be roamers that spawn less frequently than 2 hours and no instances to hide in

[latent plover]

astroflux has something like that, separate pvp and pve instances for all gals past a certain level. the pvp ones drop 25% more resources and have guaranteed higher levels on dropped artifacts

[gilded lagoon]

i'll always go with the assumption that the incentive to flag/pvp is to have fun, not to trick a pver into getting killed

[deft rock]

It’s not about tricking anyone. There would be a pop up that says by clicking this you get extra loot but can be killed anywhere

No tricks

Very straight forward mechanic that you either do or don’t do

[gilded lagoon]

the "incentive" to flag up is the trick. imo you should flag for fun, not to get extra loot. sure extra loot is fine but the moment it's mandatory it's no longer a reallistic choice

i mean, i'd want pvpers flagging, not pvers

[deft rock]

It’s not mandatory though, it’s just beneficial. Pvping as an option only for fun or low reward is why this thread is a thing

[gilded lagoon]

25% is a massive reward already

[deft rock]

Exactly

Doesn’t hVe to be 25% either, it’s just the idea.

Anyways, I have recommended something like this many times before. If @dense meteor or @steel raptor come in and say it’s a good idea, I’m sure the devs will consider it.

BDO also has this exact same concept with a separate server that gives 50% bonus loot drop chance but you can get perma griefed anywhere

not an uncommon concept within mmos anymore i dont think

[gilded lagoon]

iirc bdo has like 2 arsha servers and 40 normal servers 😅

also the 50% is additive to other loot buffs and you can go to like 300% without the pvp server iirc. so that 50% extra is a lot smaller than it looks

[deft rock]

yes i understand the formula bdo uses

thats not the point...

the point is an opt in pvp instance/server with extra loot

its not rocket science

[gilded lagoon]

ye we agree

[steel raptor]

i think it sounds fun

[stable hull]

I'm not really interested in a system that basically lets people completely turn off PvP and "instance" themselves from other people. We already don't have very many players, why would we seperate people from each other even more?

In a lot of ways it sounds worse than the current system. If you die farming stuff right now, you don't lose anything and you don't have less drop rates. Outside of like, Obscure Crests/Damaged Peacekeeper Technology and Angre/Gonz crates.

[steel raptor]

maybe make the kd bosses have higher drop rate when flagged as well, but you actually have to travel in kd to get to them

[steel raptor]

thats true seperate instances wouldnt work with our population

could still be opt in and more loot drops not a seperate instance, flagging means u cant tw or something

[deft rock]

same can be said for literally any other idea tho

[steel raptor]

and cant flag while out in kd gotta do it in ef layer

but yea that seems more carebear than what we have now

as you can just take any sense of danger away by not flagging

[gilded lagoon]

[steel raptor]

also how would roamers etc work with no flag pvp

[gilded lagoon]

make roamers immune to non flag

or "cant shoot if no pvp" message

[stable hull]

Not really understanding why PvPers need rewards for PvPing, if its fun to PvP people will PvP. Really sounds like the rewards need to be that its fun to go and do whatever it is that exists in the layer, and sometimes you fight other people over access to it and other times you don't.

[olive dock]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-valid-mr-mackey-south-park-s2e12-clubhouses-gif-21551542

[stable hull]

Sounds like we just need to make more fun content in the open world, that people can fight over or work together in pursuit of, and people will fight more. Some of it could drop when you get it, and as long as its not possible for someone to camp a single spot or area then people who don't want to fight have a good chance of getting away from low effort piracy.

[gilded lagoon]

again with the tricks

cant you make it so people have a real decision of whether they want pvp or not? instead of this "weeeeell here's this juicy steak over here, it's probably saaafe but there's a chaaance it isnt"
why cant it just be "alright i want to pvp, lets go"

[golden lion]

Safety lock?

[gilded lagoon]

i guess both systems work for games, personally i really dislike the first one but i might be a minority here

[stable hull]

You're playing in that system right now though, no?

[deft rock]

colo exists for people that want pvp for funsies

[gilded lagoon]

a very lite version that i dislike but there's not enough people to be a real big problem. anatolia is the second system for example

[still hamlet]

I dont like the term fun in this context because fun is subjective and not really a good way to look at content engagement.

[steel raptor]

I think Hober is correct when he says there shouldn’t be direct rewards for pvping but instead PvP over content and the rewards come from the content.

Maybe we just need more reason to PvP. Having some form of cargo drop helps with that too

[dense meteor]

Ranger is a free lunch for Seer

[dense meteor]

Thats how it should be. PvP should be a cat and mouse game. Most of the people against pvp dont want to put much effort into it.

[gilded lagoon]

have a layer that opens up 1 or 2 times a day that is free for all and drops cool stuff or something?

[deft rock]

these things already exist in the game, and no one does them. time for a new idea

[gilded lagoon]

you go there knowing what you're getting into

no random times tho

[steel raptor]

Maybe it hasn’t been done correctly yet

[dense meteor]

This is a big statement and I agree. I made that argument before as well.

[steel raptor]

Or well not that it wasn’t done correctly. Anatolia sees its fair share of PvP sometimes and the 2 roamers we have saw some PvP too

One of the issues as well is the other smaller teams haven’t figured out how to do gonz and angre yet either so there is a whole lot of PvP that could happen if they all got hungry for it

And I’ll say it now, the gonz and angre drops really help you out when your trying to run red outpost content

[pine lintel]

Why have bosses drop loot? You should just do it for fun imo

[steel raptor]

So all the small teams should be doing it

[steel raptor]

Feels like that with Steve, minus the fun part

Jk

[gilded lagoon]

would anyone dislike a free for all pvp layer that opens up for 1-2 hours every day a cople of times at a specific time and drops something nice? full zone loot, no tw, etc

[still hamlet]

I couldnt comment until I knew what my potential incentives would be for something like this

[dense meteor]

I like the idea of opting in and making that choice lucrative enough to where the average person will want to opt in. It would allow PvPers to get more loot from bosses while also fighting over said loot.

[gilded lagoon]

well, the loot and the pvp since every pvper "should" be fighting for it

[steel raptor]

That would kinda be cool as a side thing yea

[dense meteor]

Splitting people up is the main counter to that idea. Numbers are low currently. This change would also effectively remove PvP completely from a portion of the game.

[steel raptor]

Could even do it in Anatolia layer outside of the contest

[pine lintel]

New zone was a no go right?

[gilded lagoon]

you need to have specific times (and advertise the time properly) and not random but ye

[still hamlet]

Yeah like this line of thinking seems to lean towards reincentivize anatolia

[still hamlet]

I think Hober was against new layer, yeah

We sort of have this with the off contest Strategos spawns

its just most end game players arent needing troves only.

[gilded lagoon]

the biggest problem with strats is the times imo

[stable hull]

I'm not against a new layer, we're literally working on T24+ which is going to pretty much work like what I described.

[deft rock]

so you just want different flavors of the same thing. it will have the same result

[dense meteor]

PvPers will in fact fight just for the sake of fighting. We enjoy the chase between builds and countering each other. Its a constant effort. The only reward I have really advocated largely for is for people to drop their loot 😂 Obviously having PvP in another layer is great and having all roamers in that layer consolidates the meaning pvp in that area without removing it from the game completely.

[deft rock]

no small team will be able to kill roamers unless srx lets them. and if yall let them take the kills, whats the point of having it be pvpable over

[still hamlet]

Tbh, we aren't doing roamers constantly. There is quite a bit of opportunity to get one in.

[pine lintel]

Nah i think there needs to be something to fuel it, i need to hold something over your head when i clap that sd

[still hamlet]

Yeah, incentive is kind of key to this topic imo.

[stable hull]

People used to PvP in Perilous Space whenever RNF would spawn. People used to PvP in KD, old KD and new KD, back when things were new and you needed/wanted stuff from there. I'm pretty optimistic people will PvP in a new layer for T24+ if its available and the things you get from being in there are nice.

I think incentive and stakes make more sense in larger fights, because those don't last 5 seconds. Somewhere like Wild Space.

[deft rock]

pvp already doesnt exist in most of the game. and the player base is so small that separating a few doesnt really make a difference

[dense meteor]

New Zone is a no go. Original idea proposed using Anatolia which is under utilized currently.

[dense meteor]

Well I see your point but its not 100% true only because those roamers now spawn 12 times a day. SRX doesnt even contest half of those per day. There is alot of opportunity for people to get Gonz/Angre loot.

[stable hull]

If you want to hold something over someone's head, what better way to do it than to roll over their galaxies and control them somehow? In a world where peoples industrial bases were still purring along smoothly and the Ownership/Control of a galaxy didn't jeopardize their bases you'd be able to hold that over their heads and brag about dominating without people who don't want to fight (both on your team and outside of your team) feeling like they want to quit.

[deft rock]

At the end of the day, all these ideas really only have any effect if traders made a full come back, or the pirate team got bigger/stronger and could compete. without either of those, any zone with pvp enabled is just a carebear hand holding fest anyway

[dense meteor]

Well if we are fighting in an active content layer, the gear/loot that drops in that content is what we would naturally fight over.

[gilded lagoon]

can u elaborate on what that means? you drop loot on death? there's random multiple boss spawns? wdym 😅

[stable hull]

This is what I mean, and I genuinely do mean some.

[gilded lagoon]

ye i'm just asking what "some" means

[dense meteor]

I do not foresee a system where everyone is appeased when there are a number of people who dont want PvP at all and consider the current system to be the "Wild West". People quit because of PvP. People also quit because of a lack of PvP.

[gilded lagoon]

is it "obscure pirate crests" some, or drop all cargo "some"

[still hamlet]

I think % chance to drop cargo ond eath was the idea, not sure if that is what Hober had in mind in that comment.

[gilded lagoon]

or something inbetween

[dense meteor]

Just make all that cargo loot drop. 😂 Another issue with PvPing in KD as it stands is that it favors the whole "last hit" mechanic. You can do 10s of millions of damage on a boss only to have someone come in to 1 tap it, scoop the loot and you dont even have the real opportunity to contest.

[gilded lagoon]

i'd make a note that not wanting to pvp yourself doesnt mean you dont want others to pvp their heart out. slightly different

[dense meteor]

Sure. That, by definition, would be different however, the game has not been that at any time in its existence.

[deft rock]

Okay, honest question. Hypothetically, new roamers or something get added that drop good gear and spawn once or twice a day. Is srx perma griefing aidelon/emf/dsf if they show up? In a world with no traders and no pirate bay

[still hamlet]

Tbh yes.

[golden lion]

Yes.

[still hamlet]

Like, its always been we contest the new content.

[stable hull]

Obscure Pirates Crests style of some is what I'm thinking. Probably a little closer to that than in between.

[pine lintel]

I think PvP needs to be rewarded more tho man. i think its lame to just say we need to protect anyone that does not want it so they can farm loot in peace. but anyone that wants to PvP should do it for the love of the game

[deft rock]

in the short time i played recently, i always saw srx teaming up with every other team to fight traders, whether it was roamers or anatolia. thats why i question whether adding new content would matter or not for pvp

so essentially with no traders, srx becomes traders and noobs still complain

doenst really solve any issues

[dense meteor]

I cant speak for all of SRX especially considering its size but I do know that the core PvPers here would contest those zone heavily. Are you asking if we would let them just do it free? I personally would be out there blasting.

[gilded lagoon]

from that pov, nobody is forcing you to pve with them, but u are forcing somebody to pvp with u. all of it is more nuanced tho

[pine lintel]

By getting no rewards from PvP im absolutely forced to do PvE tho

[dense meteor]

I like that OPS drop, but thats hardly worth it and largely safe. If the value of those were increased significantly then that would be great.

[gilded lagoon]

i agree, i'd love a pvp progression system but we dont have one

[deft rock]

and a second question is, who in the game right now could contest srx for any content even if they wanted to? if the answer is no one, whats the poiint in added more roamers or another anatolia?

[dense meteor]

I guess SRX would become Traders like in terms of denying new roamers but less toxic in gal/all chat 😂 . I could see that until people decide to split from SRX

[dense meteor]

PvP with no rewards is the new PvE. 😂

[gilded lagoon]

i dont think anybody in the entire thread advocated for pvp with no rewards 😅

and it's a very long thread

[dense meteor]

There are strong players on other teams. Some people play in their own siloed corner. If PvP were more central, it would be beneficial for people to group up in order to contest.

But I will take that question and apply it to PvE: Majority of the existing players/teams are not able to do gonz/angre, solo matriarch, solo GEE, etc. What would be the point in adding new PvE content at all? People in this thread have complained about difficulty/fear of doing trackers because of PvP.

The game overall needs to grow and evolve. Just like more PvE content is being pushed out, more PvP content also should be pushed out. If people were involved in PvP more often, they would get better at it.

[dense meteor]

Yes and since I started it, I am likely one of the few people who has read every comment. Some people do not want PvP to exist at all and complain about the current state of it now. Some people do not want any risk from PvP.

[deft rock]

i agree with that logic. i just dont think more of the same type of content is the solution, which is why i suggested the separate instance for pvpers with extra rewards. it would also potentially incentivize people that normally wouldnt pvp to take the risk. I think you said something similar though which puts us on the same page. its mostly everyone else advocating for more of the same stuff like roamers that already dont get any attention in the existing player base

[gilded lagoon]

i think most of the "complaints" are not about wanting to have no pvp in the game but about not having pvp forced upon them. you can argue they're agreeing by playing but that's what they mean. they're not saying u and everybody else shouldnt be able to pvp if you want, they're saying they dont want to be pvped themselves

which is why i've been advocating for "real" player choices

clown emoji for explaining?

[pine lintel]

this would be cool if they make the layer setup to fight tho. dont give 16 escape routes or make the zone way to large. big rewards big riks

altho i guess still would turn into a grindfest with big teams dominating

[deft rock]

yeah, at the end of the day, theres no real good solution for pvp. any new system, layer, or whatever idea can always be countered by game mechanics. large teams, mcing, alt team cheese, etc all that makes most ideas not worth it

[dense meteor]

Yes, definitely. Some people are advocating for more PvE but arent even doing the PvE that exists.

PvP drives PvE progression. Its true in game and its true in the real world. Threat of war and conflict drives people (characters) and nations (teams) to progress.

[dense meteor]

What I need everyone to understand is that PvP is an integral part of the game. SS has always existed with PvP and it always will. A character consents to PvP when they enter into PvP layers.

[gilded lagoon]

in the same logic, you consent to the game systems when you play, but you want to change it (which is fine by me, btw) to a different version. we're all advocating for some change at the end of the day

[deft rock]

The thing is man they will never see it this way. No one asked for more pvp when there was pvp everywhere and bvb in wild space. People just complained about getting pvped. Now that you can’t lose anything in PvP, they still complain. They say they don’t want pvp at all or they want the pvp to last 10+ minutes in a 1v1. Well if you do that, they’ll complain that they have to fight for 10+ minutes when they just want to do PvE. They’ll complain until it’s gone and then even the last few PvEers will quit cause they’re bored

[gilded lagoon]

in my utopia, pvpers get pvp fights and and an alternative progression system, and pvers are safe and also get the choice to be pvpers if they want to as well. ofc it's hard to get there

[still hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/lost-we-have-to-go-back-jack-shepherd-tv-show-reaction-gif-14744504

Bring back BvB

[next frost]

this is easy to accomplish

separate pve server. since there's no risk, it should be tech and rarity capped

[gilded lagoon]

why "should"?

[sudden schooner]

they wont seperate stuff, fragments the player base too hard

[gentle vapor]

implying that adding a change that one faction would very much dislike vs another faction that would very much like would also not fragment the player base too hard

[dense meteor]

Well those game systems have evolved over time. The core identity of SS still exists. Removing PvP altogether would remove a major part of that identity.

You could say that I am advocating for a game system reminiscent of older styles with major improvements.

Your counter does not land the same way mine did because I am not advocating for the removal of a core part of the game or for people to have the ability opt out of it. For example, you would have a valid point if I were pushing to remove PvE or making PvE optional to progression. Both are apart of the game and both are here to stay.

[dense meteor]

That is a great point actually. I am not sure as to why one would want longer PvP interactions when the anti-PvP camp has mentioned that their loss of 1-2 minutes in stasis is "costly".

[gilded lagoon]

nobody is advocating for removing all pvp

[dense meteor]

Have you read every message in this thread?

Complaining that the current PvP system as is too difficult/punishing in terms of progression is just that. There was a good several hour discussion about pirates and big teams being able to deny certain aspects of content.

In your utopia, you are wanting to create two separate game experiences, thus removing it for one of those experiences. PvP is here to stay for us all.

[gilded lagoon]

ye they they dont want to be camped etc. there's more forms of pvp than w8ing in a seer to 1 shot newbies that are fun for everybody involved, like anatolia, roamers, etc. and many more that you could create

when you say pvp what is it that you mean tho, because it can encompass so many things but it's constantly used to mean ganking newbies. i and almost everybody else only have a problem with that part

[gentle vapor]

there is a constant repeat of slogans; and the disingenous attempts to mark any pushback against the current implementation as wanting to remove PvP all-together are not in good faith.

there is a very clear motte and bailey being used here about wanting more PvP in the game [the motte, most people do not disagrees with this], but when the talks about what it actually means it ends up meaning more than just more PvP in the game, but a specific kind of PvP, denying other implementations disingenuously as "wanting to remove PvP from the game" [the bailey].

getting the discussion going is nice, it would be more helpful if less sloganeering is used and more approaches were explored than engaging in this discussion dishonestly like this.

clearly PvP is an issue people care about, hence why there's so many messages here (even if, somehow, we're a minority, clearly we care about it enough to get quite a lot of attention from the devs)

there are a myriad approaches to getting more PvP in the game, each having pros and cons, and we currently have PvP regions in the game as well; the question we should be asking ourselves is: why are people not engaging with the current PvP systems, like Anatolia, as much as people would want, considering there's so many people who would want more PvP?

there are valid requests: people want more, they want BvB, they want all that good stuff that Anatolia does not bring

[dense meteor]

I do not think you read my initial statements about PvP as I laid out 3 ideas about possible systems to implement. At no point in time have I advocated just sitting idle in a gal waiting for a newbie. Killing a newbie is not existing for me. I think most end game, min-maxed players who thoroughly enjoy PvP would say the same. There is no real accomplishment in killing a newbie. Now killing that power house player and being able to brag is an accomplishment.

I am certain you didnt real what I mentioned because I even went so far as to say that PvP would not start in these meaningful ways until T22-23+.

[gentle vapor]

there are multpile solutions, and labelling some solutions as wanting to remove PvP from the game just because they do not, for instance, mix the PvE content with PvP, shows that the desire is not actually just for more PvP, but a very specific kind of PvP.

and that's the thing that people have a disagreement over.

[dense meteor]

There is a repeat in slogans and statements because people do not read but instead make emotional or reactionary responses without fully understanding context.

Earlier in this conversation, I had to constantly ask people if they read through the ACTUAL ideas that I originally wrote. At the time, they had not but they were just typing out of emotion and fear. When they read through the ideas and had time to think through them, they found themselves being able to agree.

[gilded lagoon]

i guess i consider a random person farming kd minding their own business a newbie most of the time

[stable hull]

I wish I knew the answer to this question, it would be very helpful for us as devs to understand the answers to this question.

[gentle vapor]

i understand that people will be, mind my language, r3tards, but truthfully we should not engage with them on that level

[gentle vapor]

absolutely, and this is why this discussion is here, and it's why I actually am very happy that we're discussing it

[gilded lagoon]

fwiw i read the entire thing but i regret it a little lmao

[gentle vapor]

i'm only disappointed in that discussions that pertain to the potential reasons as to why people are not engaging with it/other PvP aspects of the game, or how they are engaging with other stuff that is related to PvP, what makes them want it, what makes them not want it; get misportrayed as being something they are not

if we had the big answer, this thread would likely not be as useful as it is

[vestal kayak]

The biggest issue is see tbh is the crap loot systems. Then devs adding new loot systems to content while increasing the difficulty substantially. If T24 is more of the same with more intentional forced pvp pitting super geared min/maxed players against less developed or casual players that gap is just going to be so big it's going to feel like being the baby seal at the beach. Where is the incentive for people to play in that system? Either pvp or pve? We need loot fixed on multiple levels. Not just held for end game players.

[dense meteor]

I actually answered that a long time ago. I am fairly certain I, nor anyone else has said there is only 1 form of PvP. As I said to Cojines, I am not sure if you read what I posted originally but it seems like you have not. It has been discussed and agreed upon by many. PvP, in its current form, is not rewarding, engaging or meaningful. Someone dropping Obscure pirate crests, or a few pieces of salvage equipment isnt really "worth" PvP. For the record, the original post I made included 3 different forms of PvP: Open World, BvB and layer specific.

This holds true within Anatolia for any time outside of the emp contest. It is not worth doing it outside of the contest.

[still hamlet]

I've said it a couple times in here. Incentives are why we don't see more pvp. It's simply not worth the time to go gatekeep content for no rewards.

[gilded lagoon]

you can always kill mcing, overhaul the class system, separate zones by lvls and gear and advertise the game as endgame pvp

[gentle vapor]

I actually read what you said, just for reference; and I would actually disagree, considering the constant framing that, just as an example that was brought up earlier, having PvP be optional, would not be an option you think would be fit, considering your answer here: #1455675444765397126 message.

Menaingful PvP is what we want, and the problem is that whenever it is brought up, solutions that imply PvP being decoupled, for instance, from PvE content, such as (just as a random example) removing PvP from KD, are always shut down because it's not the specific form of PvP that is argued for.

[still hamlet]

I actually disagree with this. It's really hard to explain the years of nuance, but there is a clear and obvious push towards reduction of pvp threat in the game and, in fact, that sort of advocation is what got us to the current state of the game, and we are at an all time low in terms of player activity.

So yeah when there is heavy kick back on the idea of removing some training wheels, it feels like the push towards no pvp.

[dense meteor]

Separating PvE and PvP in an exclusive way has already been proposed and shot down several times. This is why I have said time and time again, PvP is here to stay. Its not going anywhere.

[gilded lagoon]

i agree with you, but my solution is not have people drop more but rather create a zone/system where less powerful players also want to go pvp (not farm, pvp)

solution from the bottom, not from the top

[dense meteor]

You read what I posted originally in its entirety, this thread or both?

[gilded lagoon]

i didnt open the pdf but ye

[gentle vapor]

If the developers shut it down, just like they've shut down PvP in the past, this is not an argument to be used against it, as the developers are here to have their minds changed. After all... why else would we be here voicing our opinions about what should happen next, unlses they were at the very least using this in order to decide what should happen next, at least in a very small capacity?

We should talk about the "why" in why it was shut down, because this is actually why certain things in the past have occured; like the whole BvB fiasco, warp becaons, and more.

Simply stating that "it was already decided" closes off discussions that are relevant to the topic at hand; clearly PvP is not in the state players want, and we don't just say "the devs have decided it to be this way" and leave it at that; why should we do that for this? Sure, they can say that their current intention/plans are X, Y or Z, but isn't this whole thread's use here just to help them decide actually what way they wanna go? Maybe the way that they currently have in mind (whichever it may be) is something they themselves are not sure of; or, if they are sure of it, why even have this thread? Clearly players should voice their discomforts with the current approach, and potential future directions as well, regardless of what has been established; this is true for both the people who want more PvP (like you and me), and even the crybabies who want no PvP at all.

[dense meteor]

Removing PvP from KD is not an option. It already does not exist in EF layer and Wild Space by venture of ownership mechanics. The pendulum isnt going to swing that direction. Thats making things even more "soft" and safe.

If an idea is being mentioned that has already been shot down, then yes, I am going to echo those sentiments.

[gentle vapor]

Simply stating that "it's not gonna happen" is not an argument.

It would be beneficial for the health of the discusison for us to engage in the "why" behind things.

[still hamlet]

Anatolia is still a functional pvp zone, but it has low activity because its rewards are somewhat niche. Either you need Seals/Augs/Bindo, or you dont and thus dont go there.

Gonz/Angre aren't done regularly enough that people who would potentially want to contest them, arent going to be ready to respond to an all chat shout.

[gilded lagoon]

i feel like this might be a fundamental disagreement about what type of game this, so no amount of discussing back and forth can acomplish anything 😅

when gear dropped and bases werent safe i wasnt playing the game, because it wasnt for me, but i also wasnt complaining on discord about it. then one day i checked and turned out bases were safe so i started playing. im saying this because it's the game itself

[dense meteor]

Drop on death is one option. A repurposed layer that includes all roamers and more is the 3rd idea from my original post. It is good to see that you agree with that

[gilded lagoon]

i have to say that if you were playing the game when bases werent safe and then it changed, i understand the people that were/are angry about that, because it's not the same type of game anymore

[still hamlet]

I hear you tbh Cojines. But I think thats part of the discussion too in my mind. Gearing back to old systems but improving upon them while doing so. I'll say it again, this game was built on the backbone of PvP and it's honestly what made it great for most people.

[gentle vapor]

As I stated veeeery early in this thread, I do not believe this to be the case. There's many, many, many complaints players have about this game (simply read the Steam reviews, as I mentioned), and whilst this could be a problem, I do not think it is the main factor as to why the game has been constantly bleeding out its playerbase. This is off-topic, but is relevant to this point, so I'll just mention it quick: Recently there has been some new player in game, EliteRift or something (I do not recall the name exactly, but it started with "Elite"), and he reached level 100 or so, and could not find a way to progress further. He was offered help, but he said that he simply does not like how the difficulty increase happened, and declined the help, saying, well I'm paraphrasing now since I do not have the exact quote unfortunately, that if he had to have help in order to progress, that the game was simply not for him. What were the actual reasons behind this? Many possible ones. But this problem has been raised multiple times in the past: the new player experience and player retention is ass. Forcing people to have the wiki open whilst playing the game and whatnot are not conducive to good player retention or harboring new players in general. Either way, again, this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to highlight this because it happened yesterday, and I am 100% of the opinion that problems like these are what prevents people to even accumulate in enough numbers to be able to meaningfully contribute to this very thread.

[dense meteor]

Nothing in its entirety has been decided. There have been ideas mentioned by others that have been shot down currently. Again, if that has happened, then I echo those sentiments.

[still hamlet]

I think you might not have understood what I was getting at, and lets just agree to disagree. I'm not even trying to have an argument about new player retention. I'm trying to say I disagree with your calling it sloganeering and trying to imply we are being disingenous about the topic in the thread.

[gentle vapor]

In order to even come to this thread and meaningfully contribute, one would expect that you at least advanced in the game enough to be the case; there's a reason we only see old faces here; Being a little funny, we're masochistic enough to keep playing; The new players don't even reach the point where PvP enters the fray, to place the blame majoritarily or fully on the PvP is, I think, not accurate at all. And even iff we disregard the new players, look at the old players with their Steam reviews, very few are complaining about the PvP or lackthereof, there's complaints about the whole update delivery mechanisms, balancing stuff overnight, not testing stuff, etc.

[dense meteor]

Right. And there is certain experiences that others have and perspective because of their experience in PvP prior to that change and now. That is what Awiiz and others like myself have said.

[gilded lagoon]

if it went back to unsafe bases, i wouldnt play anymore, and i wouldnt complain in discord, i'd just move on. but if that's what most people want i wouldnt opose it, i'd just go away 🤷

[still hamlet]

I also didn't say that pvp was entirely the reason we are at a lull in player base. But I believe the team you are flagged as being on, literally quit playing the game over pvp design flaws.

[gentle vapor]

No, trust me, I understood, I was simply providing some reasons as to why the playerbase was and is bleeding out, just like you have correctly identified; I was merely disagreeing with your claim that it's because of the PvP aspect. If this was the case, you'd hear about it more on Steam reviews, or you'd see it reflected in other ways. I simply do not see this, and gave some examples that highlight problems that people have been complaining about, and I'm pretty sure those of us who still play are still complaining about in some capacity.

[still hamlet]

I dont necessarily think bases need to be unsafe at this point either. I'm simply in favor of opening the door to new pvp design.

[gilded lagoon]

me too

[gentle vapor]

and I think we should all be.

[dense meteor]

That is completely okay and your choice as a player. Thats the same type of choice others made when more meaningful PvP was reduced. They decided to take a break from the game or leave altogether.

[dense meteor]

There are a variety of reasons as to why people have left the game. PvP is in fact one of those reasons as much as people having their prod wiped/capped caused others to quit. PvP is not the only reason

[gentle vapor]

I have not denied that PvP is one of those reasons. I have stated only that it is not the main reason.

[still hamlet]

i wasn't saying it was though 😂 Was merely trying to say there is a reason we are passionate about this topic and I cant speak for others, but I get irritated when trying to have an objective conversation and it gets bogged down by "I got killed, remove the class that killed me" type rhetoric.

I do think you had a point though, that we should be focused on why pvp isnt engaged with at large

And I think a lot of Swole's ideas have a lot of merits wether or not people like them.

[gentle vapor]

You did imply it here: #1455675444765397126 message, when you said that that we are at an all time low in terms of player activity, implying the causal link between the reduction of meaningful PvP and the drastic reduction in player counts.

However, I completely sympathize with the passion. Hell, that's why I'm also responding here and contributing feedback. I clearly like this game, so much so that even after a specific person in this game made me quit (NOT by PvP means by the way, it wasn't even directly game related!), I still came back because I yearned for the gameplay.

We're all passionate here about this, which is why we're here after 1300 of replies, still discussing it.

[gilded lagoon]

feels like it's fundamental disagreements about the game itself, and the nature of the game in the past isnt helping at all since it's not the same

[gentle vapor]

Which is why I said very early in this thread that this game suffers from an identity crisis.

And our discussions here are mostly futile if we do not actually know what the intended path is. I mean, look, you go from T0-T20 without much PvP content, T21 still without PvP, T22 with maybe a little PvP (but truthfully Subspace PvP is a bit rare these days), and then T23 with more PvP; if the intent of the game is to actually go the route where a core part of the identity of the game would revolve around PvP, such as loot dropping, or other mechanisms, the current way the game is structured does not infer that to new players at all (and many quit even reaching T16, let alone T20, it's insane).

Which is why I would really love for the main devs, the head devs, whichever they might be, to let us know what the actual intents are. We're here guessing in the dark.

A game that goes ahead without much PvP if at all in the T0-T20 (where most of the new players are), will give the impression to the players that the PvP part of the game is not tied to progression, and then they get slapped in the fact with something that they were not playing for before.

Maybe they'll stick around and like the PvP aspect, maybe they won't; most don't even reach that point lol

But there is an identity crisis when the game's progression shifts like that, and we're here trying to guess what direction the game should go towards, where there were priors that established less PvP, removal of BvB, and now there's a sudden shift. We need to know what the actual direction the game goes, so that players don't get the wrong idea.

[dense meteor]

Do you realize that YOU, Nylon, are on the team who recently quit with their reason being because of lack of/reduction to PvP? This is what many of them said. 😂

[gentle vapor]

Doesn't contradict what I said; and yeah, I am more than aware.

[gentle vapor]

Just for reference: Steam lets you add tags to games. Player defined tags. There is sandbox, there is PvE, and there is no PvP tag. That's what the players (at least on Steam) think about the game's intention. If that's not it, then clearly there's a misalignment in what the game is trying to convey.

[still hamlet]

Nylvon, the game was BUILT around pvp.

[gentle vapor]

And yet you have none of it T0-T20. You have no PvP tag on steam. And most of the complaints on the steam reviews are not about PvP being reduced/increased.

I completely agree that historically it was.

This is not the game that it currently is.

And I don't think you'd disagree when I say that that's not the current game we're playing.

[steel raptor]

Isn’t that why this is a discussion in the first place?

[still hamlet]

So make a feedback post about the steam tag. You are in a pvp feedback thread. We all here know the game was intended to have pvp,

[gentle vapor]

Exactly!!!

[gentle vapor]

There is a difference between "intended to have PvP" and "the game was BUILT around PvP".

[still hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-the-frog-muppets-meme-smh-shaking-my-head-gif-16984538577250620315

[gentle vapor]

Which just shows what I said: There's discussions barred from happening if we just keep misportraying these two things. I also want PvP. I also want solutions. We have disagreements in what the solutions might look like. That's all.

[still hamlet]

I feel a bit like you are arguing semantics for no productive reason.

[steel raptor]

The game was much more hardcore PvP historically
So intended to have PvP isn’t applicable here

[gentle vapor]

I don't think I am, but we can agree to disagree.

[brisk coral]

Not in any order:

1. [My setup] isn't that good

2. Gank someone, their much better equipped teammates gank me back

3. Loss of shop access, both buying and selling + not hard to figure out who a shop is owned by and not shop there

4. Social loss of friendships/LFG

5. Little benefit for me to gank

6. Wastes my dang time both looking to gank and getting ganked

7. Lots of chokepoints that block access just long enough to waste my time off work that day

8. No direct path to progress characters by pvping

9. Prod bases are where billions if not trillions of stuff are vulnerable

10. Nowhere to get pvp or bvb experience without getting crushed by whatever super team is dominant that uni

11. Losing access to a nearby gal for resources you need that uni because you're at war with someone or they came to pick a fight with you

[steel raptor]

This statement is literally arguing semantics

Btw

[gentle vapor]

This is an uncontestable fact. It was absolutely much more hardcore PvP in the past. It was toned down over time, for specific reasons, which is why we should talk about those reasons, and not just brush them off as people being crybabies (even though we can all agree they existed).

We need to know what the intent of the main developers currently is, because if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I am, BvB itself was removed because of the decision of a main developer.

[gentle vapor]

I think given what I was saying previously, I clearly deliniated between them.

[gentle vapor]

What I want to get at is: If the main developres have continuously toned it down over time, we need to know why, because that is part of the main game strategy; and if we don't have it known well, we're discussing in the dark.

I'll give a very short example: If the main game strategy was to make, just as an example, T24 be a battle royale (wild idea, but just go w ith it), and that the future of the game would look just like that, I'd simply not play, because that's not the game I wanted to play.

But I do not know whether they wanna go that route.

People should know so they know whether they should invest their time or not into this game.

[brisk coral]

We had a trio of brothers that showed up to DSF (eos and rend present alongside me for witness) that geared up to T20/T21 while on dsf, left, went pvping, got crushed by local teams (not even ticking off EF or DM or Commonwealth), swiftly found themselves getting ganged up whenever they wanted to do content, couldn't even do subspace because 5-6 teams would gank them, they quit before hitting T22.

They rolled around with a PBF gunner, some rhino shm, and some SD in like an awc. And got counter ganked by Vokiis and Tfods.

Nowadays, your choice is mess with noobs/dsf, mess with aidelon, mess with srx.

[gentle vapor]

It's like knowing what kind of ice cream you're buying. It should tell you whether it's chocolate or poop without you biting into it, so you don't have the case of "ah, you see, you expected it to be chocolate, but it was always intended to be poop".

[still hamlet]

The feedback post isnt about the identity of the game though brother. We are talking about pvp changes, in a game that has historically had pvp in its entire existence, and you are arguing about it not having a pvp steam tag.

[dense meteor]

Those reasons have already been mentioned and discussed a few times.

I will reiterate again. Previous PvP systems were too punishing. Gear Glue system of dropping items with no towing or ability to transwarp at all gave way to for people to be griefed. People could literally get farmed and bullied.

In terms of removing BvB, without going deep into SS history, a dev saw what it was like to be on the receiving side of having your gals/prod wiped.

[gentle vapor]

Please do not reduce what I said to just a steam tag. It's not conducive to a healthy discussion to engage in this form of intellectual dishonesty.

I want to be respectful and I think that is the best way to get the ball going.

[still hamlet]

Okay sorry, so you want to know why the dev's changes happened and dont think we should have discussions regarding pvp because we are in the dark.

Thats my implied take away from what you keep saying.

We dont and likely wont know why past changes occured, so lets focus on the subject matter in the feedback thread

[dense meteor]

Another reason why its been toned down so much over time is that the PvE-only camp has been the most vocal without being properly challenged.

[gilded lagoon]

well, the first post talks about making wild space unsafe (which obviously was how the game was at first), which completely changes what kind of game this is

[steel raptor]

Who makes poop ice cream though?
I’m sure that sounded better in your head

[gentle vapor]

No, I think that discussions themselves can happen, I just don't think I could meaningfully contribute if I don't know the direction it's going. It would be stupid for me, for instance, to suggest removal of all PvP zones, as a random example, if the game's main strategy was, for instance, to add PvP everywhere; right? It would be a waste of time on my part.

[dense meteor]

As I told Cojines, as a player, you are free to make that choice for yourself.

That idea has not come up but I dont think the team/alt-team system within SS would work for a true battle royale.

[gentle vapor]

It could be any chocolate-looking ice cream. Poop is a reductio ad absurdum. The analogy stands.

[gilded lagoon]

pvpers finally losing to pvers 😏

i'm joking

[brisk coral]

GG era was technically fine because the game was much much bigger. there's maybe 150 people across all timezone and including f2ps. there were 1000 people just p2p, with another 200 odd f2p.

If you got ganked, send a message on team chat or teamspeak, 10 people shows up to rescue you.

If you get ganked, only SRX really has people online at every timezone in the day. You can also just tow. Granted, having Damen show up to rescue you is great. But what if 10 Damens were the gankers (because SRX are the gankers and you're not srx).

[gentle vapor]

Obviously, that was just one example of a potential direction.

[still hamlet]

Listen, I hear what you guys are trying to say, but it's taking the conversations into a route of severe hypotheticals that just get so far off what the thread is about. That's why i'm kind of advocating against what you're saying.

[steel raptor]

Get out of here with your hairy potter spells

[dense meteor]

LOL yea. I guess that was the case previously 😂

[gentle vapor]

The point was getting served something that you did not expect, and then being gaslit about how it was intended to be what you received from the beginning.

[still hamlet]

Sure, but thats not what this feedback post is about Nylvon.

[brisk coral]

The pain train of Damen, Awiiz, Bobel, Swole, and Camo. No one getting out of that without a big fleet hot drop (which they can just leave) or towing.

[gentle vapor]

I think it is very important to this feedback post.

Which is why I've stated what I've stated this thread.

We can agree to disagree on whether it is important or not.

But to me at least it was important to let out, as it is feedback about the PvP aspect of the game, which is relevant to this thread.

[steel raptor]

What is exactly? I’m actually trying to understand what you are saying but’s it’s so verbose I’m having a hard time.

[still hamlet]

I dont see how bringing up new players understanding this is a pvp game or not is important to pvp feedback.

I do agree understand why past changes happened is important, but I dont think it adds anything to the discussion currently.

[gentle vapor]

That was a slight tangent, as I said, it was an off-topic example of an underlying issue that was only addressing your implication that the reduction in PvP was one of the big determinants of the low player count, as I've stated previously.

I think that having the understanding of why past changes happneed adds to this discussion because they weren't done randomly, and highlight the main strategy of the game, the main direction, whichever it is, intended by the main developers, whomever they might be, which can help us narrow down our solutions in regards to integrating more PvP in the game.

[gentle vapor]

There's quite a lot of stuff I've written, and it would be hard for me to condense it down more than I have, but specifically I have talked about pain points of the current implementation, and the fact that some discussions are shut down for reasons I have detailed in a more verbose manner.

[dense meteor]

Well one misconception about big teams is that everyone on that team is at the same PvP "power level". There is definitely a spectrum on any team and that is definitely on SRX. Not everyone has the same PvP experience or skill level with it.

[steel raptor]

Which past changes specifically

That’s a broad broad thing to say

[gentle vapor]

Well you wanted me to shorten down my main points, I shortened them, haha. But surely, I'm talking strictly about PvP changes here, but which are part of the main strategy of the game.

If you want to know more about what I was talking about, please refer to my earlier messages, and if there are things that are unclear, please let me know so that I can address them more specifically.

[steel raptor]

So basically you want a dev to come in and give the main vision so your feedback can be tailored around that?

Probably not gonna happen

[gentle vapor]

No, it's more so that I'd not suggest things that would be the complete polar opposite of the main vision.

It would be a waste of my time, I think you'd agree.

[steel raptor]

Why not though

This is a discussion nothing is off limits

[gentle vapor]

Why suggest "no PvP ever!!!" for a game (not necessarily this one, it's just an example) whose vision is "all PvP, forever!!!"?

I personally would find that a waste of time.

I'd not suggest such.

[steel raptor]

It’s not that black and white though

[gentle vapor]

I am not claiming it is.

[steel raptor]

No PvP, all PvP

Your example was

[gentle vapor]

I said "not necessarily this one, it's just an example", to highlight what an example of a wasteful suggestion would me, in my eyes.

I didn't say all things here were like that.

[steel raptor]

Jeff probably isn’t gonna come in here and lay out his grand plan so waiting for that to give feedback is asinine

[gentle vapor]

I don't think it is, but we can agree to disagree.

[steel raptor]

Sure

I’d like to see PvP be more casual in this game. And more people participate in it.

I want newer and older players to be able to have fun doing it.

Most of us old heads that still play or have come back remember the game because of the heavy PvP/bvb moments in the past.
While stressful in the moment we look back fondly.

We have played this system for awhile and my honest to god feedback is we need PvP with stakes. What that looks like is open for discussion.

no stakes = no fun

I think the current system of “you PvP too much you become a pariah” is a product of the slowly eroding PvP system we have in place.

If PvP was more ingrained and encouraged in the game so many people would do it and the social ramifications would probably disappear. I mean maybe 🤷
Kinda feel like we need more population for that lol.

Except being toxic in gal chat, screw those guys 🤣

[dense meteor]

What sort of PvP system do you envision?

[gentle vapor]

I have no decisive opinion on this, otherwise I probably would have stated a big coherent approach to it; but I think that something along the lines of, for instance, Pirate Galaxy's "pirate mode", with the added suggestions here about loot dropping on death for those in this "pirate mode", with the benefits of having more loot/higher quality loot/other benefits, would be one of my approaches; this way you intermingle the two domains of play without force. This, with the addition of either another layer OR special galaxies where there would the tick rate for bases would be higher, and enabling BvB, whichever form it might be (old-school unattached or other forms), would also help. Hell, even expanding Anatolia such that you could, for instance, actually build in it, have more galaxies, or have some form of randomness and not just this predefined shape [but not be fully random] in galaxy formation, would aid with making this form of gameplay not so repetitive. That, I think, would raise the stakes for the people who are already at that point where they're BvB starved, PvP starved, without making new players go through T0-T20 with an idea that this game is mostly PvE and then get smacked across the head with something they have not been playing so far, and, depending on their preferences, engage with or not engage with. I have some ideas myself, and you, and others here, have also been suggesting somethings that I myself was somewhat agreeing with; it's all in the nitty gritty of the game direction that differentiates these. The main differentiating factor here is that I'm suggesting approaches that are more close to the "opt-in" method of enabling PvP, and not just having it be on by default. If people don't opt-in enough, it simply means the rewards are not worth the risk, which means the rewards have to be made more worthwhile. Going without this opt-in approach, I believe does not actually solve the problem of PvP not being satisfying.

[brisk coral]

I don't think people mind becoming a pariah if content wasn't reliant on not being a pariah.

At one brief time, if you weren't on EF, you just couldn't participate in content as 80% of the game was part of that team.

Other times, if you managed to anger both USA and DM and their friendlies, you axed out 90% of the playerbase

Just picking on dsf cut out 95% of the playerbase (which 13 found out the hard way)

And these were times when the game had double, triple, quadruple, quintuple the playerbase.

Have fun getting on a matri run as a lower end player that SRX just happens to hate.

[deft rock]

The answer to this is not complicated at all. Anatolia in the most recent contest that traders partook in, was primarily a PvE contest. Traders and Srx fighting their own bosses and maybe pvping somewhere in the middle. For most of traders this is not a satisfactory “pvp” experience. I personally would have liked to see Anatolia revolved around something that is more strictly PvP and not mainly a PvE event. Anatolia is also a lot of work and most of us have lives which resulted in 2-3 of us available at most at any given time for it.

No one participates now because with traders gone, no one is strong enough to compete with SRX in Anatolia. Even if aidelon, DSF and EMF all combined forces, which they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t be able to contest. So really, it’s several issues.

Hober knows this. I’m not sure why he’s pretending like he didn’t know the answer

Considering you can become emperor uncontested by simply farming some NPCs, it’s not the best system to use as a PvP incentive

[pine lintel]

kind of agree with this tbh, fighting traders in anatolia was alot of fun for me and some of the strats evolving around it. but honestly most of the fights we had with traders was purely for fun and not so much in the best interest of emp. or just random exit trolling.

im sure some seal clubbing is what everyone wants deep down ngl. but most of the players i know that actually enjoy pvp dont want to just noob stomp and call it pvp. this is in regard to saying we feel like alot of the pushback is pve enjoyers want no pvp. most of us feel like pvp is already quite non existing so any form of it thats somehow less then what we have currently will feel like basicly you saying just kill it all together.

i agree with damen that it has to be something fun and not only for top 1% tho, just hard to do i guess

since i also dont think its fair to say just go to colo and have fun...

[deft rock]

Well unfortunately with how the game is balanced and how small the player base is currently, anything added in is only going to benefit whatever the biggest team is at the time. Regardless of what new layer or system they add, with the current player base, one team will rule over it and no one else will be able to do anything about it. That’s why I’m against another Anatolia type system or roamer.

I’ve seen multiple people say “pvp should just be for fun and not reward”

But that is literally what Colo is there for

If it’s going to be inconsequential and not rewarding, I would say not to even bother making something

[pine lintel]

i take it the abuse cases from mcing just are to much of an issue to solve y? meaning rewards from pvp that dont directly come from some other player is just not doable?

[spark herald]

Remove the game from the pvp

[deft rock]

Mcing definitely kills a lot of ideas that could have been good

[rapid lotus]

why are you acting like pvp players dont also have to do pve content and at some point need to risk losing their gear to travel

[vestal kayak]

This summarises why i've said the team system doesn't work for large competitions. It always eventually boils down to 1 big team that just farms it because. Its not a competition when the most powerful are in one spot. It should be based on cumulative personal achievements within the arena. If that looks like pvp then maybe they can find some way to remove ways to farm kills on your alts.

[deft rock]

There’s no way to do that either in this game unfortunately

[fringe salmon]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Make it a tournament of dedicated pvp teams 3v3 or 5v5 etc. Purely based on player vs player performance and not gimmicky PvE with alibi PvP sprinkled in

[stable hull]

I know why traders isn't, but not other people.

[deft rock]

But it’s obvious. Other people couldn’t do it even if they wanted to

[humble venture]

I went to do strategos once, sat there for like 5m, waiting for anything, he became weak hit him, someone flew out of gal or he lost vis apparently reset him, once and never again because it has random period you just gotta afk for who thought of that

[still hamlet]

That was done to prevent 1 person from doing all 6 strats for basically free.

[old arch]

too bad a few SRX members took it way too personal

[wild bridge]

How about %=piracy per cargo held item. So with piracy of 5, every cargo item would have 5% to drop. It’d also help push people toward valuing piracy as a skill. I think quite a few skills could do more.

[old arch]

Only cool SRX members are Swole,Damen,nuubz congrats on my list

[wild bridge]

Flameone is pretty cool. He’s got a sweet vendetta against me because I and Chino are malicious for joking about considering blowing up Chino’s unused prod base. Takes a strong man to have a vendetta like that. I respect him ^^ ATLIUM is also a worthy opponent and a great friend.

[brisk coral]

Hober already knows this but can't say he knows this because it would soul the player to dev communication channels and give credit to the vanguard that's been saying this all along. We know the devs don't really given credit to minority groups in SS, especially ones that like to grief people. They need to see a majority of people say something on a big topic before they act on said big topic.

It doesn't matter what team Hober is on, btw. He could be on DSF and all the DSF guys cry on the subject and the devs won't do anything, because it's just one team. But if you can get 4 out of 5 teams (any combination) to be on the same side with at least 20 individual people, the devs are much more willing to weigh in and do something. It's always been this way so don't think this pvp stuff is unique.

[slow violet]

the rewards of pvp is making a montage and posting it here

How about before making a new layer or new system, undo the last 6 years of anti-pvp changes

[stable hull]

Mind listing them out?

[slow violet]

Removal of pvp in oly, kidd, rp, subspace hubs including kumari, wildspace owned gals, wildspace hubs, maus. Streamer mode in KD hub galaxy, transwarping from inside instances, transwarping from any %hp, additional warp beacons to content zones, the shield rework in general making everyone stupidly tanky, surgical death durability, pax scutum, roamers spawning every 2 hours, loot buffs on BK and RNF making the roamers pointless to contest. Hey you could even add back UZ pvp and EF layer pvp.

Probably other changes I've forgotten too

[brisk coral]

Would do nothing.

Go suggest making nullsec rules apply to lowsec and highsec and you'd get 99% of the eve playerbase against you, including major "pvp alliances"

[deft rock]

That pretty much covers the last 5 years or so yeah

All they gotta do is roll it back 5 years and it’s a better game

[humble venture]

Can't roll the player base back 5 years

[wild bridge]

True, though I’d say that despite hating PVP it made me a lot more resilient as a person. I actually owe a lot to the PVPers of SS for turning me into who I am.

[dense meteor]

My major issue with going back is that PvP would not be lucrative still. Camping skill instances as an end game player and PvPer is boring. I would actually actively bust up anyone who is camping these areas for kills. I want to fight the best players, not pick on under powered players.

[vestal kayak]

That's a bit more than 6 years. Pretty sure you can still pvp in RP before the instance if im not mistaken. Not sure how the scutum is anti-pvp. I've seen and used it in pvp ditto the other ships in that series. UZ and EF layer are also way further than 6 years. There's probably more. No idea how surgical durability is anti-pvp any more than mining weakness on capships is anti-pvp. Most HFs still have a surgical hole the way LFs generally dislike physical. If you want someone to blame for the skill areas being made anti pvp and warp beacons being added you can thank Traders trying to specifically blockade those so people couldn't get skills. Blame your bad actors and their shit personalities for making some safe spaces necessary. You can't pull off things like that and expect nobody will complain. It was judged that some of those sanctuary spaces were reasonable since many of them were directly related to skills. If you want people interested in pvp you need to make it appealing to do. Making everything a fight because a few people are just jackasses and get off on baby seal bashing isn't going to do it.

[dense meteor]

I largely agree with the fact that skill areas should be free of PvP and impossible to blockade.

[vestal kayak]

I'm not opposed to pvp, I am generally the first to show up if im online. I try to see it through the lens of someone newer to the game. Time is a cost, I have to tell my new guys they have alternate routes to stuff and they shouldn't feel like they can't do something because a pirate is camping stronghold. For pvp if I have goals or achieve something then it's fun. That's what I'd like to see more of. I'll be darned sure be pvping more when the engi changes come through. I can, and do, pvp with my ranger and sometimes my FC but I like the engi more.

[old arch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfMckh2-n9o

look how active we made the game look

[slow violet]

It's a shame you weren't around then. Apparently it was just 1 character parked in each zone and not a single group of players banded together to clear any of the blockades for a whole month.

[vestal kayak]

Some aren't going to like it, that's facts. It doesn't negate any and all concerns about pvp. Nor should it overwhelm ideas to make it more approachable and entertaining. That's the whole point of this topic is to find ways to revitalize it.

[deft rock]

Based on the responses by players and devs to all suggestions so far, I don’t see it going anywhere

[vestal kayak]

It's kinda hard to fit in stuff. But I'm sure there's a way to meet in the middle.

[humble venture]

BvB costs / building could be decoupled from item syncs so there would be constant BvB for space

so you don't feel like you lose out

[vestal kayak]

Decoupled? How?

[humble venture]

the major problem is feeling like you have lost time, because reources are scarce

so building kits, augging them decoupled from requiring actual augs

so you build things from raw mats like how the Z augs used to work

kits would not be tied to any sort of dementium/adamantium

so BvB could be constantly going, attempt to take space etc

HQ/Prods would require way more fortification/time and something you'd be more inclined to defend

so people that have 10 prods spread across space gonna run into issues trying to defend it rather than centralizing it

how it used to work, but removing the time/resource components from it completely

like, you should be able to setup a gal, start hoarding IC's converting them into kits and preparing to take gals constantly, as it stands you lose a gal that you've put a ton of time/effort into because you've built all the extractors, setup the gear, built the augs etc just feels like a waste of time to lose

remove that "loss" that feelsbad, and make it feel meh, siege someone else claim that instead

people would lose space, people would gain space, if you want to super fortify a gal, go for it people gonna avoid that unless they just want to spend a tonne of time

[gilded lagoon]

the cost of losing a prod isnt the station kit and the augs

[humble venture]

yeah, it's everything else the items, the ships etc etc

im saying for BvB and random gals, the time it takes to setup everything as is, is a major disincentive for BvB

if I could setup a kit, comes with w/e extractors etc, don't have to aug because each kit has a dif setup or function

what do I lose taking 10s to setup a kit? nothing

i didnt spend a day setting up all the gals

[deft rock]

People complain about dying in KD and having to sit in stasis for 1 minute

[gilded lagoon]

so you're suggesting combat kits separated from "safe" gals?

[deft rock]

Couldn’t imagine the complaints about losing a gal

[humble venture]

yeah

[old arch]

reading this post reminds me of this
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3v0jJBF1qHw

[humble venture]

rofl I love zelensky

"in two weeks, in three days i heard it from putin"

kek

[old arch]

his best line hahaha

[slow violet]

Have you said thank you 😂

[gilded lagoon]

not pvp related

[slow violet]

how so?

[old arch]

its very realated

[humble venture]

BvB needs to be decoupled from the huge time loss it currently is, having gals that are outside a prod gal be open warefare and the time to setup not being hours would be a step in the right direction

[vestal kayak]

Some of this is coming, I submitted a feedback on it years ago. I belive and please correct me if im wrong @pulsar orbit @sonic igloo that there's a lot of simplification and stream lining happening with stations now.

[old arch]

I personally dont give a dam about BvB but its still more fun then regular PvP

[humble venture]

end goal would be to stimulate pvp because imagine at any moment people just gonna take your unguarded gals got a choice to D, or let it happen or assault something else

some strategy involved in what you wanna fortify, defend or take

[pulsar orbit]

Yes, this is factually correct. It is the project I am currently working on.

[strange skiff]

Ngl I'd take a 5 year rollback

[humble venture]

time to do the blizzard route, release SS classic as is, slowly progressing with incremental changes to improve QoL 😛 see how well she does

but i imagine the sourcecode/patch changes are all gone now

[strange skiff]

What are people's thoughts about being able to TW with damaged pk tech now?

[vestal kayak]

Pretty good. It didn't really positively affect pvp or pve. Combined with the inventory tossing bug it was not a good thing. It was an idea to try and make pvp happen more but I can't think of a time I ever got caught DGing let alone dropped them. The real pvp incentive was always the lockers from angre and cyber gonz.

[strange skiff]

I was farmed by the pirates and lost at least 50 pk tech to them

so I like this change

[gilded lagoon]

i abandoned the mission so i could tw

guess it's time to pick it again

[dense meteor]

BvB typically also includes PvB and ,by virtue, PvP. I prefer squad vs squad PvP outside of the scope of bases being used especially with the current system. Those squad versus squad matchups were always fun.

I remember when Traders got the jump on us during a Gonz run. Our strategy at the time was to let an SD take the crate and get it to safety. Traders popped our carrier and took the vault. We were mad about it being stolen so we planned and executed a heist and did the same thing back to Traders. Encounters like that really drive people to grind more PvE content to get better while also theorycrafting counters.

[old arch]

So fun times

[dense meteor]

It was fun. We need more moments like that in game.

[slow violet]

Oh look yet another change that panders to these pve cryers: Red Rogue mission items, such as Damaged Peacekeeper Technology, no longer prevents Fast Travel via transwarping.

I bet this was because the pirates made @gentle vapor drop 20 peacekeepers that one time. Funny how fast the anti-pvp changes get patched in

[vestal kayak]

Be real. Those have virtually zero value if you DG at all. The only thing it ever did was inconvenience the players. I usually have a fat stack that goes poof every reset.

[strange skiff]

Like last uni? :p

[pulsar orbit]

I don’t have time to read this channel. If anyone wants to PM me their ideas, concisely, that are relevant to station combat, I will read it.

[vestal kayak]

Not sure what your asking lol. I've had piles of those sitting around since they were added. I don't genuinely use them enough to wittle down the stack. I can only make keys once per week on characters. I don't open that many chests. I DG a lot for NF items so they just happen.

[dense meteor]

This is technically true. I don’t care about Damaged Peacekeeper tech. It’s worthless to me as a PvPer

[silk sparrow]

It's worthless stuff I toss it so I can tw

[slow violet]

I guess its worthless to a team that can't kill a roaming zebu/masala 🤣

[wild bridge]

Swole, me and my 4 ultimate stealth augs say that we have discovered a new way to PVP which involves just not fighting you 😛

[dense meteor]

Well that is definitely one play style 😂 . You may not get much else done

[wild bridge]

Feel free to retreat from my cunning all you like Swole, I can still hunt flyboys more viciously than you will ever see 😛

[tulip ether]

If you use Opaque augs instead, they won’t see you and you won’t see anything!

[south jay]

OK Zaphod

[dense meteor]

Lol and if you are hunting flyboys, we will likely never cross paths. No worries about PvP in that case😂

[wild bridge]

Get back to me when you can handle fly swatter lavae and I’ll help you fight the big boys. 🙂

[latent plover]

Inb4 we get t24 flyboys content

[stable hull]

[dense meteor]

T23+ Endless fly swarms in 4-5 char instance would be fun. I thought Fighting pits waves system would be like that. SS version of zombies 😂

[stable hull]

Yeah well its not PvP but its honest work

[deft rock]

So are the devs able to inform the players on what the plan is or what they are considering doing to solve this issue? Obviously no one expects anything tomorrow, but it would be nice to get some details

I think it would be beneficial for everyone for the players to not be blind sided by a system the majority don’t like. Maybe we could give some feedback on early concepts to prevent waste of time

[slow violet]

This is the key

[deft rock]

right like we got a hint that a dev or two is working on a bvb system but yall should probably shed some light on some more specifics so maybe you can poll early on, whether its going to be a waste of time or not.

[strange skiff]

I recently tested the new player trade system for the devs and found about 12 bugs with Yuugh, does that count?

[deft rock]

sure man but im primarily asking them to be more transparent with their ideas regarding whatever pvp/bvb system, if any, they are working on or considering working on

not so we can test it necessarily

but give early feedback on the idea to hopefully not end up with another anatolia or LACS system

[dim merlin]

Agreed. The past few big changes haven't been communicated well and deployed last minute.
Can't afford that with PvB/BvB.

[slow violet]

Yeah if they told us the lacs bvb galaxies were going to be attached kits only we could have told them to can the idea

Also the person working on the new BVB system is offloading these. Not suspicious at all right? 😉

[stable hull]

I can't share anything yet because we haven't locked anything in. If I shared stuff now, you'd have a lot of questions we probably don't have the answers for yet and I'm not confident that we'll get through the initial brainstorm process without significant changes. When there's something appropriate to share we will share it.

[deft rock]

We have been told several times by 13 and maybe you as well that there is a bvb system or base rework of sorts currently being worked on. If that’s the case I would say it qualifies

[vestal kayak]

That's pretty much as far as they've got. They don't have anything near consensus about possible systems for bvb. It's nowhere near even going on the tracker for work or a design doc.