#Requesting some love for energy items

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

terse glen
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There are a lot of cool items and super items to help shields and by extension damage taken. Basic t20 super shield service gives a flat 80,000 shields, and there are a lot of other items to reduce the impact on your shields like palatial protection and a number of other inbuilts that provide protection, tweaks, etc. You also have envelopments which address it in another way, and when you are OOC you never spend too long going from zero to max due to % based shield recharge. You can also use multiple of these items at once.

Energy doesnt seem to have much of this. The super items are weak, barely regening a couple thousand energy. Kalthi warrior heart thingy is cool but is HF only. A couple others that are hull locked.... OOC bank regen isnt bad if you are a cap ship with 7 peacekeeper panels, but other ships can spend 5 to 10 mins OOC to regen if they are bank build.

Suggestions - Make more super items/methods to regen energy in unique ways. For example:

-Super items like sacrificial deliverance which give flat energy regen, but much more energy at a higher cost of something else,, maybe it drains shields?
-Super items that increase elec temp substantially for a brief time but DOESNT count as your damage super item so we can use both.
-Have an “EDM of energy.” Similar to the shield one that increases shield bank at the cost of elec temp, maybe one that increases energybank by a ton at the cost of energy regen or shield regen or something else etc.
-A super item which boosts OOC regen by a lot briefly, but only OOC.
-Allow neuroforging on panels and have unique panel bonuses that increase OOC regen.
-Have an “envelopment of energy” that creates a bubble, flat large amount of energy around you that gets used up before your main bank, but then goes poof if you dont use it all in 5 or 10 seconds..

TLDR: It feels like there are tons of ways I can manage my shields and damage, through items, tweaks, abilities, etc if needed, but almost nothing for energy. So suggesting some creative ways to fix that.

BTW the goal isnt to just increase energy for everyone at no cost, its to allow more ways for us to engage in tradeoffs that allow some tactical energy management, but at a cost... Thanks for reading.

quiet hornet
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There is a brand new powerful energy tweak in the red outpost station trade in.

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There probably wont be more buildable tweak super items made. But expect to see consumable tweaks, like the one mentioned above. It is called red caprihana

summer cobalt
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We have intentionally tried to keep OOC static and unmodifiable. We definitely will look at ways to make regen focused more viable via itemization and content

terse glen
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Roh - out of curiosity, how come there is an avoidance of buildable tweak super items for energy? It seems there is comfort making those often for shields/damage in many varieties.

Jechtz - That makes sense for shield chargers, since it is % based. But it does seem as energybanks get bigger and bigger through higher tech levels and augs, that flat OOC panel regen rates arent scaling at the same rate.

granite tree
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OOC for energy takes too long botfallen

quiet hornet
hazy ferry
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Waste of a super slot if you ask me. Just remove them from the game and droptables altogether

left horizon
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Energy = Power in a way that Shields don't. Energy lets you DO stuff. If we make it too easy to get access to large amounts of energy consistently, then players have to make less choices and sacrifices in their build craft and gameplay when it comes to managing their energy resource.

hazy ferry
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Just remove them, they're more useless than an appendix.

left horizon
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So yeah we'll give you, over time, more interesting energy tools. But its not going to be at the same level as the other things because Energy is used for so much, does so much, and needs to be a limiting mechanic so that you don't just do everything at all times.

terse glen
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that kind of explains the limiting of in-combat regen items, but that seems seperate from OOC issues

hazy ferry
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The dev stance on that is 'suck it up don't use a bank build if you don't want to waste time watching paint dry'

left horizon
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Being quite frank here, there's not much difference between OOC and In-Combat in a lot of scenarios because of how long a bank based build can last you. If people can dip out of combat for a bit and rapidly regenerate their energy, they come back into combat full.

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Someone shooting for 1-2 minutes straight with a bank build slipping away in a PvP/PvE scenario and regenerating their energy quickly erodes the reasons why people might pick a regen build.

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Especially in longer term fights.

terse glen
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is there a single high end boss fight you can actually do that in? I dont see that viable in matriarch, GEE, etc... only maybe anatolia

left horizon
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The balance isn't perfect right now, but letting people get rapidly increased OOC regen is going to result in bank based builds being even more powerful whenever a player figures out how to slip into OOC for a while

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And there are a lot of situations where you can slip into OOC

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I wouldn't mind an accelerated out of combat regeneration if someone has truly been docked/out of combat for an extended period of time.

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But when players figure out how to make setups that last multiple minutes of fighting, and then want to regenerate that energy fully in a rapid way, that's just making it too powerful relative to a bank or hybrid setup.

granite tree
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is there a way to make it faster in an instance

terse glen
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Maybe an EOOC (extended OOC) that increases the panel amount by a lot if you hit 2 or 3 mins OOC?

left horizon
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As I said earlier

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If someone made a setup that can shoot/do stuff for 2-3 minutes

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And then we give them the ability to rapidly regenerate to full after 2-3 minutes

granite tree
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actually I agree with hober

left horizon
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You're basically giving them the ability to do all kinds of wickedly powerful stuff with their energy

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And it pushes people towards bank even more because by default its more powerful than regen

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And without having extended downtime, there's literally no reason not to do it unless you're fighting a boss that takes 20minutes of raw DPS to beat.

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And if I make a boss that takes 20minutes of peak DPS/HPS/elec beaming/etc to beat people are going to lose their minds because that is insanely boring lol

terse glen
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well i mean, the whole OOC concept being introduced years ago, was essentially a big push, to push all players toward bank.

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so i hear ya, but it does seem odd thats a concern now

left horizon
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It actually was to replace Solar Panels + Radioactive mods

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Do you remember the old days when people would stack tons of panels and use radio mods and stuff and get huge regeneration?

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Like thousands of regen on bank based builds? In combat.

terse glen
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also, up until i switched to gunner, i found my FC regen bots superior to bank ones. So i dont think regen is that weak. not to mention many gunners and SDs are still regen based

left horizon
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Good, I'm glad we still have regen based characters. We don't want the pendulum to swing in either direction too much.

summer cobalt
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Yeah we want to drive towards the middle but not strictly be in the middle.

onyx token
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Great timing on this post! I share the same sentiment for energy tweaks and their superitems. Simply put, they're severely underpowered and neither worth building nor using.

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I respect the rationale in limiting OOC regen, and I feel like regen overall seems to be at an alright place: but unless there's planned deprecation for the energy tweaks/superitems, I don't see why there isn't room for a bit of love to make them reasonably usable?

left horizon
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I will spend some time thinking about those tweaks and super items. Mind giving me an example of what they are right now?

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Also, people's impressions of the Red Caprianha would be helpful. How useful is something like that for you?

opal sedge
left horizon
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You get a lot of tweaks from the turn in though

terse glen
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i think what he saying is, its a lot to just find out the stats and see if u gonna like it or not..

left horizon
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oh ok

onyx token
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Compiled a quick list based on in-game values from /mc, seems like the superitems are all already twice as good as their tweaks

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Also don't know what the meaningful difference between the Satanic and Sacrificial variants are at T9, T15, and T18

summer cobalt
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They're not twice as good

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Tweaks are affected by NT

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Which is roughly twice as good

onyx token
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Right, the Zen skill. Superitems don't normally account for that

onyx token
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*Fixed more mistakes

image.png
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Are these standard tweak superitems affected by Zen of Devices?

left horizon
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nope we made it so that most things are not affected by zen of devices unless it specifically says it does

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I actually agree with you that these tweaks are probably not well maintained

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A responsible way to deal with them might be to look at how much electricity you might use in a given amount of time throughout tech levels, based on various items and combinations of items, and then come up with some sort of relationship between the energy regen values and expected electricity usage. That's actually fairly involved and isn't something we can commit to doing right now, so I can't make this a priority.

I'm interested in doing it though, probably not super extensive and involved but in a more low key back of the napkin way.

summer cobalt
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We really should do our tweak rework plan first before we start mass double touching

nimble meadow
nimble meadow
onyx token
summer cobalt
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Its like 102%

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Check the wiki

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Its basically double

onyx token
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Couldn't find a page talking about that, but yeah I'll assume 102% then

summer cobalt
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It says 100% but I think it rounds slightly.

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But its marginal

small cape
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so it's more than double?

onyx token
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Is there a technical reason why the superitem versions don't consume shields on use? Not that it's meaningful in the tweaks anyway

summer cobalt
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No idea. its not really a real cost anyways

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Another reason elec tweaks are kinda problematic

onyx token
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If it wasn't so inconsequential, I'd have thought it was a balancing or immersion mechanic (i.e. reallocating energy from shields = juice)

summer cobalt
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It likely was when they were made before inflation of everything

onyx token
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That'd make a lot of sense

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I've tried playing around with all the values to try to envision how a rework could look like. Should I put that here, or make a separate post for it?

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I'll make a new thread, don't wanna hijack

summer cobalt
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We have greater radical tweak rework ideas so I don't know if you want to waste your energy

onyx token
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It's already done anyway, so I'll just share it

left horizon
livid berry
onyx token
nimble meadow
terse glen
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fyi for those who want to see stats before splurging 50b. I dont actually have these yet just saw from a teamie

image.png
winter dagger
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That tweaks seems kinda 🍑

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For 50b

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Would definitely use on my monk tho

quiet hornet
nimble meadow
quiet hornet
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And ofc its doubled by NT

nimble meadow
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right now I can get +80% energy max and +40% energy charge for 5 minutes and per tweak is like 5m. 60m per hour yes please I'll use it. I'll pay for an auto-tweaker too. billions upon billions

nimble meadow
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or 60m an hour. you decide which sounds better

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this tweak is stupendously good, I'll give you that. But I don't need that level of power.

left horizon
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The tweak doesn't cost 50bil each lol

winter dagger
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I'm aware

nimble meadow
winter dagger
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Thought it was 50

nimble meadow
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My point is a constant use of the tweak to last an hour, if you do it like that, it's like 100b an hour because each tweak is 30 seconds

left horizon
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Why would you need it for an hour

nimble meadow
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I want to tweak up, get high, and roll through dgs.

left horizon
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Its not a tweak you keep on permanently lol

nimble meadow
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yeah, that's why it's bad for your average junkie

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rend was right yet again

left horizon
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You'd need 7500 regen baseline in order to get 3k more regen from a Source of Infinite Energy tweak

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And the -20% elec temp is like -33.33% elec temp with NT 50

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Its for burst moments

nimble meadow
winter dagger
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What's the total with NT & imp tweak 7 ?

nimble meadow
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not everyone has IT7 but you can calculate NT for everyone and the cost just isn't there. Yeah, if you actually burn tweaks for an hour you get about 10m elect and about 3m elect cost saved in elect temp. It also cost you about 100b.

Yes, you only get 3.6m elect over that same hour with SOIE. But it cost you 60m. And yes I did my math wrong it's not 16 hours, it's closer to 1600 hours.

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100b worth of tweaks, dg for the next year. 100b worth of tweaks, dg for the next hour.

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I could see this tweak being useful for a seer or SD when you need to burst damage but really you can just back off or cloak up and wait 30 seconds.

terse glen
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BTW a related topic I meant to add into this post but forgot: Can something be done with energy capacitors?

Again shield capacitors seems like they add something meaningful, 200 to 300k shields is noticeable and can make a difference. Energy caps barely add anything that seems noteworthy. Looking at their stats, its seems the energybank part of energy caps needs to at minimum be quadrupled for them to even become competitive at being used for their main stat, and not the secondary stats they have on them.