Bring Back BvB in Wildspace

[dreamy bane]

Not to mention the fact kits auto sustained themselves

You what I feel should happen

I feel they should remove the ability to make perfect colo

And let you fight for the best ones

Give your silly self some incentives go actually do colo or leave them alone

[astral oxide]

Trade bays adjust over time as do bot orders... and while Trade bays are largely copy/paste... Bot orders are not easily copied.. particularly between characters or accounts.

[astral oxide]

what are you even talking about?

[dreamy bane]

Ohhhhh my

Silly me

More accounts mean more work

[astral oxide]

I'm jsut saying let's make it even.. you want to fight for a gal, you should have to own a few of your own to do so... have a little skin in the game.

[dreamy bane]

I'm saying no experience player start this from scratch as you speak off

You pre pop colo

Stop making it sound like u doing this from the bottom up when ur not

Every mega colo been prep before uni

[astral oxide]

Do you literally know how any of this works?

[dreamy bane]

And I'm saying the attacks don't need to feel obligated cause you do colo

Hell

They should be happy go get some eco

To use

Thats a good incentive go take a gal imo

But you just whine about ohhhh the defender this what they get

Make a juicy gal and leave 2 def kits and see what they get

[astral oxide]

You pump 1, maybe 2 colos... you then get them to a size where you can then buy peasants off them to build your others...
It takes a week or so for a colo to actually mature... it dies in days if not tended to.

[astral oxide]

You're literally not making any sense bud

[dreamy bane]

Erman made this colo in prody and I sat there watching the tick

Over 50mil peasants being bought one time from a colo

50million

From 1 colo kit

[astral oxide]

Yea... you buy peasants off your pump colo once it is matured

[dreamy bane]

I will admit i never played much attention to the logistics of colo but building matri gear super early i got a glimpse on the mech

[astral oxide]

No, you really don't understand any of it man

[dreamy bane]

I just said I got a glimpse

[compact raft]

100m peas on 1 colo, lmaoooo

[dreamy bane]

All this talk about it being matured and stuff I just told you being in hq gal you don't have to worry about any sort of conflict so you could pop how much peasants til your heart content

And do all that other stufd

Watching it mature or whatever

But!

[astral oxide]

Ok.. so 50m peasants per tick on a budding colo is going to have a peasant price around 200.
So you're spending 10B every 2 hours to then pump your other colos.

There is investment there.

Those other colos won't mature for another week or more, so you're not actually profiting much during this time.. but you still have to run the full infrastructure for them.

[dreamy bane]

Once you venture out then its fair play

If you want to do that far away then defend it

You making it sound like I'm forcing conflict on players

I'm merely bringing some sort of balance between greed and need

Cause you don't need to mature every damn galaxy you find

You don't need to own it for exes

Its all greed at this point

And the system is protecting such greed

[astral oxide]

That's what it takes to get production running in a week...
If you have 90 day unis and a week to get the first colo running, then about a week to get the rest online, then a dead week at the end you end up with 69 days of actual production per uni.

[compact raft]

"Full infrastructure " come on man

it's like 1 bot

that takes 30 seconds to give orders

and then you never have to touch them again

[astral oxide]

Well Traders must have it all figured out... no other team in game seems to think basing is set it and forget it with no effort... but the people that want to discount building as a justification to bully people.

[astral oxide]

No... you want to prevent people from being able to play the game. You want people to lose something so you feel big... be real

[compact raft]

It is figured out, basing was basically solved years ago except for the new Colo IC stuff

[dreamy bane]

Bruh

Bruh

[compact raft]

and don't act like your team can't build

every major team packet sniffs the scans, chatgpt's the screenshot into a sheet that outputs the base config

you can have a fully setup gal in 30mins

[dreamy bane]

Dorian you keep missing the biggest fact to all this and its time you understand it now

The pvpers want you to play the game more than anything else

[astral oxide]

And it takes time... other than dev ineptitude, building burnout is by far the biggest reason I've seen people quit... it just isn't worth the time and effort needed to maintain.

[astral oxide]

No.. you want people to lose the game

[dreamy bane]

Never you feel like I want anyone to stop playing

[astral oxide]

You've literally bvb'd teams into quiting

[dreamy bane]

Losing and leaving are different things

Nooe

[astral oxide]

shut your hypocritical mouth

[sage narwhal]

I like how Dorian knows people’s true intentions without them saying it. Literal mind reader here

[dreamy bane]

I might have bvb out of wildspace but the thought of quiting come from misplaced pride and lack of knowledge to make a better play

[sage narwhal]

Bros got the 8th sense

[compact raft]

Kind of ironic though since EmF paid heavy to wipe teams

[dreamy bane]

Aidelon is perfect example

[compact raft]

Ik you weren't on them at that point but just saying

[dreamy bane]

They join srx

And look at them now

Strong enough to leave

And I'm sure they learn alot during that time

[sage narwhal]

Dorian literally part of a team that facilitates the very thing he despises? Wild

Bros got an identity crisis

[dreamy bane]

Whats crazy is like he is forgetting i was part of emf recent

I know the toxic traits they have against their enemies

Hell I remember they go out of their way to stop traders from having a save route to their space

By owning 1 gal on each route

Dorian making me sound like a bad guy but emf the ones trying to get ppl tan for not playing how they want

I never tired getting anyone tan

So who is the real bad guy

[compact raft]

Depends who u ask 😄

[sage narwhal]

I think poor Dorian is just misled and manipulated.

[zinc star]

We are more the exception than the rule. Most of our members played during the dawn of SS time and have caught SS-syndrome. Most newer players i see that suffer huge losses just leave and take their money with them. I don't think we make a good example of an "average team".

Heck I've seen some that just quit and leave because they got tired of being poached in KD or wildspace and felt the harassment was unfair because they were typically up against basically end game or close pvp setups. It's not been easy to keep new players around when they keep getting caught in baby seal clubbing expeditions.

[dreamy bane]

Ughh

[sage narwhal]

What huge losses are you speaking of? For the last what, 2-3 years, it’s been almost impossible for a new player to join and also suffer a huge loss shortly after.

It’s also substantially easier to be geared now. If a player is going to quit for getting pvped and losing nothing, they’d have probably also quit when a termite blew up their gal

[dreamy bane]

Well be that as it may the fact remains that your team left srx and now have wildspace presence again

And its not like what I'm suggesting is going to change that

But quiting over kd encounters sound like a frustration in being to weak which could have been fixed in many ways

[astral oxide]

Yea, what you're suggesting is the whole team can share 3 gals and the is no cost to forcing them into that.

[sage narwhal]

What

[dreamy bane]

And I told you we could figure out a save number of gals but instead of helping get a proper number you rather maintain status quote

[zinc star]

I was not very specific I apologize. Many lost things because termites. Aside from those and the window during claiming there aren't as many possibilities to lose a lot. As to why they'd not want to play when they felt they couldn't fight back that's just what I've been told and it makes a certain amount of sense. The gap between entry pve and endgame pvp setups is pretty vast. I don't mind getting hit occasionally, usually I come back out with an alt to mess around or just go pet my bases for a bit.

[astral oxide]

You've ignored all the salient points on why bvb is bad in the current design as it's directly tied to player progression
You've established no meaningful balance to a system that further stresses an already painful mechanic of the game.
Your feedback basically boils down to you being bored and you want to kill people's stuff at no expense...

[sage narwhal]

There is no current bvb design.

[astral oxide]

Current basing design and mechanic...

[dreamy bane]

Ah yes stress, pain and further meaningless engagement

I guess at the end of day wanting to take someone gal from them should always be more meaningful and less stressful

[sage narwhal]

That’s fair. A fresh lvl 3-4k literally has no chance against most pvpers. I think it’s a mindset thing though. I don’t think anyone is getting griefed to the point that they can’t play the game. At least not anymore. There probably was a time when that happened. I’ve been on the receiving end of getting slapped by end gamers, but for me, it made me want to reach that point so I can compete. I think that comes with enjoying the game enough too.

[astral oxide]

I'm not opposed to bvb as an activity.. I think it takes a lot of skill and should be in the game.

All I've been saying is that Heavy's brilliant idea for implementation doesn't do anything but introduce more issues.

I've pointed out a few reasons it's difficult to solve for them, and offered some possible solutions for balance...

The counter points have been.... well nothing really.

[sage narwhal]

Your solution for balance was to make aggressors pay 100 tril to bvb 1 gal

Because it takes you 2 months to set up a gal

That’s not reasonable

[astral oxide]

Actually I've said credit costs are pointless... it should require base related infrastructure equivalent to the costs of production and maintenance.

The idea is that BvB would be a means of procuring resources for yourself... not simply to harrass others for your enjoyment.

[wispy musk]

orange gal with 15 unaugged ai base kits and no pulses or nuclear waste.

sounds about right.

Knowledge issue, sure, but once you actually have that knowledge, termites are like ez pz lemon squeezey

[astral oxide]

It can have months of investment, and resources... and it takes weeks of time to get operational, and signifigant time in planing and deployment.

[sage narwhal]

It doesn’t take weeks though.

[wispy musk]

if someone with level 4000 chars are actually having trouble against termites....

[compact raft]

If they streamline bases for noobs I think it would solve a lot of issues

so you don't have to use external tools

[sage narwhal]

It taking weeks is literally just a you problem. Genuinely, you have a team full of experienced builders, ask for some help. Weeks to set up a gal is insane

[compact raft]

Should be able to prepack and duplicate base loadouts before you even drop the kit

@runic pulsar @summer oak

`

[wispy musk]

takes me maybe, 6 hours for a big galaxy with 50 bases? and half of it is me being lazy and scrolling instagram.

[astral oxide]

It literally does. It takes a week to get a main colo online and another week to get your other colos online. It takes days to weeks to build up defense drones and extractors...
You literally cannot fully finish a gal in a day from scratch.

[compact raft]

Ok so prepacked base loadouts and remove the stupid peas pumping system

[wispy musk]

That's not what we're talking about lol.

We're talking about the time the person themselves spend deploying bases, equipping gear and factories, and setting bots and trade bays up.

While you're over here about the total time, including time when you're offline/asleep/at work.

Setting up and letting a galaxy run is done in a day.

[astral oxide]

Oh, I'm sorry.. I didn't realize that only the time to drop a kit counted towards my investment in owning the space...

[wispy musk]

When 60+ year old geezers on TFC (Russell is definitely 60+) can drop a whole galaxy operations in a day, and the 20-30 something guy says "Oh no it takes 2 months", either your methodology is wrong or you're deliberately dragging your feet because these numbers, lower end teams like DSF get their stuff done in half your time.

[astral oxide]

We have short unis and the amount of time to get returns is fairly limited.. 69 days...
You lose your gals a month in... you thinknit's worth rebuilding for the now 39 days?

[astral oxide]

Yea.. and then they lose all their gals to mites

[wispy musk]

Last uni, it took me all of 8 hours to deploy and set up 50 bases, 25 in my prod gal, 25 other spread out in the surrounding gals. When IC extractors finished, 30 minutes all the lower tech ones unequipped, higher tech ones equipped. It really was that fast.

I set up my bots with orders to pick from all the bases in the order (base names A, B, C, etc for planets in order 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) and their resources so I could just tap tap tap orders done then duplicate orders in the window for the character and let them run. I deliberately "over logistics" for T12 extractors because eventually they'll be T20s.

[astral oxide]

50 bases in 3 gals, sure.. 328 bases in 28 gals.... it's a little different.

We're you teraforming and colonizing every planet, running non ca colos on the ee ones, running low techs to maximize tier commod production per base slots?

[wispy musk]

If you out here taking a week to set bots, idk what to tell you.

[sage narwhal]

328 bases in 28 gals isn’t necessary for any individual player to progress in star sonata

[wispy musk]

prod. no colonies. but even when I did colonies, it was just equip the terraforming bps, have them finish instantly, and make the basic starter colony. all the DF+ that would have moved peasants around full of microchips so I can just toss toss toss when the super colony is done.

[sage narwhal]

If that’s what you enjoy doing that’s fine and on you, but don’t pretend like that’s what’s required to progress

[wispy musk]

I'm not out here cchanging my CA trade bays every 2 hours to squeeze that last percent of money out of them.

Bro out here makes 500m off basic colonies (45b/uni), and cares about getting that last 25m profit

25m total not 25m tick.

[astral oxide]

It's multiple players self sustaining like a team would...
Even then with everything minmaxed you're pulling a character worth of tier commods for kalthi skills and and a few tril each... and that was the long uni...

[wispy musk]

tell your teammates to help you then.

[sage narwhal]

Yeah why are you setting up 300 bases for your team

They best be paying you well to do all that

[wispy musk]

if you're on a team doing all 330 bases by yourself and literally no one helps you, why are you even on that team?

[astral oxide]

It was a build group... that's 11 accounts with 3 people

[sage narwhal]

Also only relying on afk/extracrion/bases to generate materials for kalthi skills is a fault in its own. You can get the mats 100x faster grinding on one character

[astral oxide]

Please time how long it takes to get 125k silver farming

[compact raft]

KD skills are luxury skills, you're not supposed to get them unless u're giga rich

devs have already stated this many times before

[sage narwhal]

Even so. You’d get 125k silver, or the creds to buy it, much faster than sitting around waiting for it to extract, by just playing the game

[astral oxide]

Well not everyone botted KD or got them in Anatolia the uni they were there.

[astral oxide]

Because building isn't playing the game... right

Self farming and being self built just isn't something you should be able to do

[sage narwhal]

It’s not the only way to play. Like I said if you enjoy building day in and out that’s on you, but that doesn’t make it the most efficient

[dreamy bane]

Its funny how he mentioned the "sheer"work to do it yet do it over and over again across galaxy

[astral oxide]

But people should be allowed to do that right, they just shouldn't build except to get bvb'd for fun

[sage narwhal]

It sounds like you’re getting the shit end of the stick in your situation. How many unis have you put in hundreds of hours of building, only to come out with a few tril and some commods?

Something isn’t right there.

Either extreme inefficiency or you are lying/vastly exaggerating

[dreamy bane]

I bet Dorian would love to conquer gals made by his enemies

Imagined having all that work done for you already

[astral oxide]

120 colos, 69 day uni, full teraforming and prom supply to them all is 8.3t in profits...

You can day I'm bad all you want... the numbers literally can't lie

[dreamy bane]

What a thing

[astral oxide]

So you can talk all you want about how bad I must be, but it's a closed system, there is a maximum profitability that can be derived from a colo and my numbers were never far off.

[dreamy bane]

8 tril in just colo. I mean I could understand why you don't want bvb

Imaging just having to spend half of that to maintain defense

Then its not worth it anymore huh

[astral oxide]

Quick Heavy, do the math on how many accounts that takes...

[dreamy bane]

Idk

[astral oxide]

Shocking

[dreamy bane]

You want me to do math on how many colo you can spam ? Do the math on how much kits it took to take a gal when greed overcome the defenders

1

[astral oxide]

Base slots aren't free bud

[dreamy bane]

They aren't but spaming them just for colo isn't good

Which is why we need balance

If you put some of this so call "work" in balance in a galaxy you will find your cost/reward numbers when galaxy assault is involved

[astral oxide]

You know nothing of what it takes to actually build, and you don't care....
You see other people's efforts and success as greed because you're too lazy or inept to do it yourself.

And you think you're justified in taking from others..

[dreamy bane]

Cause ik a proper gal with defense isn't just something to look over

[astral oxide]

Sure, balance.. you want to take from me, it should cost you something too bud.

[dreamy bane]

Imagine they actually beef termites cause of this greed

[astral oxide]

But you're just a pirate that doesn't actually add anything to the game, all you do is take.

[dreamy bane]

Cause you players been spaming without no risk at all

Lmaoooo im just a pirate now

🤣 🤣 🤣

When I was "taking " for the good of emf it was ok

[wispy musk]

calling anyone anything negative means nothing in this system

[astral oxide]

Must have been before I was around.. I can't think of anything you contributed.. you were just a dog that was less annoying on the leash than off it since I've been back.

[wispy musk]

say DSF allowed people to pvp, as aggressors. literally no game politics loss if called out because owned gals can't be attacked and by the time you reach T22/T23, if 300m pvp repair cost is killing your bank, you have much bigger problems.

also same goes for "threatening to war people" (13) and actually warring people (Aidelon). All it does is restrict people from shopping at teamed shops.

If you are so weak that "little teams are big mad so we need to cave to their tantrums", I actually don't think even solitaire is for you

[astral oxide]

War is a declaration to cause harm... it's is a means to define that they are now targets.

How do you make money in this game?

DGs? Peri and KS are pvp, trackers? KD pvp, lockouts, anything post t21... pvp.. well there is CE but that because it's for skills.. bases? PvP to claim... and more threat with something like the suggestion in place.

There is no means of playing post t21 where you're not vulnrable to aggression.

But why is it free to be the aggressor... like you said... repair cost is nothing.. level restrictions don't exist (and never worked anyway), there is no form of policing wanton aggression...
Those that want everything to be lossy pvp just simply don't want people to enjoy playing the actual game... they want toys to fulfill their power fantasies.

[dreamy bane]

its like you just assume the defender is the loser by default or some shit. and power tantasies is an emf issue as we all seen over the past few months dont make it something that pvpers have

[zinc star]

They aren't loosers by default. But there's so much cheese with alts or just calling team mates that even if you do successfully drive off or kill your attacker you basically need to stop playing whatever you were doing to wait until it's safe again or sit in a safe gal.

There isn't a "win" situation with pvp. Once it starts you either leave or just keep fighting until you die.

[winged wyvern]

Lol we all know why emf players don't want bvb back, they will lose xD

[dreamy bane]

ofc taking gals from them as we speak. its pretty clear why they dont want it in since soo much automation is being done for them i dont even consider what they are doing "playing"

[peak vapor]

on the other hand it's only really traders who do want it

[dreamy bane]

im sure tornado rather bvb than watch anime at least xD

[peak vapor]

I'm not sure why you expect good faith debate with these people dorian

[astral oxide]

Funniest bit is the devs basically killed the feedback before I chimed in at all...
I'm arguing in support of BvB and trying to think of ways in which it could be added in a balanced fashion that isn't just a toxic grief fest.

But hey, obviously Traders know best with all of their valid points, based arguments, and all the numerical facts and figures that totally check out.

[peak vapor]

I'm pretty sure a toxic grief fest is kinda what TR wants

they say they're pro pvp, but they never seem to like pvp where they lose

and it's pointless trying to have a good faith debate with them on it, because half of them just want to get a rise out of you

[runic pulsar]

Not sure what ya mean. We would like a competition in wild space that lasts a lot more then reveals, and spent time creating an entire system with fractured galaxies to see how well one of the ideas work.

And that is only one of the ideas, I have like 4 other different ones where that one came from

It's just really difficult to move on any of them. It's much easier to have a competition system cause more harm then good.

But in actuality competition in wild space is like a top 2 topic I have spent time discussing trying to create something

[astral oxide]

You pointed out the WS dependencies as well as the hole for alt team abuse, Hober brought up the cost limiting approach, Jecht seemed to mostly prefer another layer.

I was trying to move the needle on any of those and spur conversation and give rationale and reason behind the various approaches.

[runic pulsar]

specifically why Battlestar and Heavy's ideas are only base level and actually fall apart when their scrutinized.

Because I have gone those exact paths and tried to think of systems that did what they did. And realized that they do not work.

I can't really catch you guys up on the years of conversation and failed ideas I've gone through with the team. If I do have an idea I feely strongly about I'll bring it to ya'll

but I'm not gonna use this as my theory crafting ground. I'm just gonna read this and take in the info.

[peak vapor]

I get what the intent is with fractured gals, and this is why I keep saying y'all need to iterate on them some more

I think those are the avenue with the biggest potential (and probably the least workload)

[astral oxide]

Like I said.. it was mostly DoA as you pointed out. But I get personally attacked for trying to press the conversation and see if we can get anything productive.

[peak vapor]

my idea would be to put all the wildspace gals in one big cluster in the middle of wildspace with more incentive to claim them and make them an anything-goes playground

[runic pulsar]

Given I don't have much to actually say here, it's gonna be mostly a player to player with me reading

[astral oxide]

With the new Colo IC tuning LACs could be an asset worth fighting over but you'd need to fundamentally change how the PvP structure works.
Would need to give Trade Bots immunity at all times so you could actually utilize the galaxies appropriately. Make them spawn with a sell colo and at least one supply colo.

[runic pulsar]

That's good stuff I'll see what folks say

[astral oxide]

Suddenly each one is worth at least a tril.. that's worth throwing some kits around for.

Oh... and idk if Trobles are in the LACs rotation.. but they should be removed... probably from the game.. but at least from the LACs 😄

I'm not sure if increasing the numbers of them would spur more or less competition. It's currently unreasonable to try and hold more than 1-2 a person... if there was more and they had closer proximity you could see people trying to go the high risk high reward route maybe. At the very least there would be more targets to spur BvB availability.

Also.. making it focused on a tangible asset helps push the motivation towards personal/team growth and away from simply resource denial... though that still applies in some regard.

[zinc star]

Those aren't the only horrible ones. Last uni I spent the majority of my play time farming basils and parsley ai for commods to use up 3 or 4 sources of spice. I hated every bloody minute of it and had any number of things I would have preferred doing. I ran an experiment for 3 weeks starting at 150% of AIC trade in and eventually going up to 300% AIC trade in to try and make it work. This uni the colo ICs have been buffed but it was so much not-fun it's just about burnt me out. I have zero desire to touch it again. The amounts were really tough to manage. We also got all the decay times increased to 168 hours for the commods which makes them marketable now... but colo ICs are just.. evil to manage.

[peak vapor]

it turns out the spice must, in fact, not flow

[sage narwhal]

All you’ve done the last 24 hours is personally attack. How are you going to attack someone and simultaneously claim to be the victim?

[sage narwhal]

The only real scrutinization is that it’s too hard for the dev team to implement and avoid being cheesed. But this is the case with pretty much any idea in the game

And the ones that do make it into the game, still get alt team/MC cheesed as it is. I get it though.

[winged wyvern]

welcome to emf where hypocrisy reigns supreme xD

[sage narwhal]

Here’s the last few hours of Dorian attacking heavy, cause Dorian doesn’t want to be bvbed

There’s been no real “scrutiny” of any of the ideas except from Roh. Everyone else just cries at the thought of any bvb loss at all. If I suggest 1 bvb per week max, I’m toxic, wanr a grief fest, and am unable to have a conversation, according to Xantra, enjoyer of half dressed anime dolls

Give me a break.

[astral oxide]

Here is where the attacks start.. by you.. and I finally retort hours later, specifically to heavy.. who admittedly does not know what building entails...

Get real.. I welcome anyone to read through the thread.. you can pick and chose some screenshots to build your narrative.

Fact remains you've given no solutions to any of the issues the devs presented and have offered nothing constructive to the conversation.

[sage narwhal]

Not saying I’m not guilty, but don’t pretend like you aren’t 😂

[sage narwhal]

I did offer ideas and solutions. They were just ones that you didn’t like.

And that’s okay. You don’t have to like them

I didn’t like yours either

You’re only response was that it should cost bvbers an insane amount of infrastructure or material or something, in order to take one gal, because you feel you put a lot of time into that one gal and someone else should have to jump through hoops to take it. I dont think either are true.

[astral oxide]

Yup, you like your pvp one side and without an appropriate risk/reward. You don't consider the defenders point of view in any of it, just the aggressors. You personally attack people's ability instead of of offering figures or solutions.
I'm sure everyone is shocked

[sage narwhal]

There you go again.

[astral oxide]

Oh sorry, did I miss where you offered an idea about comparable investment?

Or how to separate the necessity of WS building from progression?

Or any system that would prevent a team from simply steamrolling someone?

[sage narwhal]

Lmfao

I have done all of that for you

You chose not to read it, clearly.

Minus the necessity of building in WS part

My bad

[astral oxide]

And you know well the once a week thing means nothing.. you can just put bvb chars on any number of teams to declare multiple bvb windows.

[sage narwhal]

Again, you didn’t read, cause my idea originally prevented that from happening

Who is shocked though

[runic pulsar]

Alright. Here.

Imagine that setting up extractors is trivial. If you hold a galaxy with extraction, you can easily tear it up and tear it down. (Just suspend your disbelief that this is possible.) Then, we could seperate wild space into two types of galaxies. Ones where colonies and prods are built, and are fought over like they are now. Fighting occurs before the gal has time invested into. This gal would have some meager resources but youd also want to control the other type of territory to really fund industrialization.

Then theres be a new type of gal, one that is meant to change hands and be fought over. They would fund your production but are more fluid holdings. Territory war would occur over these. Because they are easy to setup and teardown the extraction, the loss to the defender is a minimal time investment.

I am obviously leaving out a metric crap ton of details, but this is the type of thing ive thought about to address basically everything.

[astral oxide]

So reducing the fiscal investment and time cost moves the needle a lot closer.
I would see the things that need to be resolved as mostly operational at that point.

The most significant hurdle would be resource movement in my opinion. If extractors and factories are taken out of the equation , it's just a matter of the commodities that are there.
If operational costs were removed so you could safely sink all credits out, and if there was ample ability to always move resources via bots or other means, then the risk to the defender drops considerably and the balance of risk/reward does move towards simply the cost of the kits/augs, which is largely trivial.

[sage narwhal]

This sounds cool to me as long as the bvb is closer to old base mechanics and not attached 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[runic pulsar]

The devil is certainly in the details

[runic pulsar]

We have some epic levels of bot order improvements coming, and if that isnt enough to trivialize the setup, we can make even bigger swings.

[astral oxide]

I would have a lot of questions about what level of resources are available in "safe" space with a model like that. Like where do we balance the ability to safely produce vs what drives people to want to build in the risk driven galaxies.

Would this be balanced on a team level, on an individual level? Stuff like that.

[astral oxide]

I was more thinking about pathing than setup honestly.

[runic pulsar]

All stuff I cant really answer right now, nor was the idea as a whole signed off. Theres tons of questions.

And of course, jecht likes the idea but wants it to occur in a different layer

[astral oxide]

I mean if you can minimize the friction of building bases while maintaining the benefit AND also add an additional higher risk/reward system that helps introduce healthy competition for resource driven gains... sounds like a win all around.

It also sounds like a pipe dream.. but maybe an atainable one with enough effort.

Where do you start with something like that in your opinion? Like what are the baselines that need to be accomplished? Do we have a set of Acceptance Criteria we could try and establish to work towards that end?

[runic pulsar]

Still in the project proposal phase. Once i get passed some of my outstanding projects ill be making more formal proposals.

Which is just me and a thought partner or two creating something understandable by the team

That isnt long ranting text streams

[sage narwhal]

My only question is how does it not get cheesed like any other idea 🤔

[runic pulsar]

By using connectivity.

Whoever comnects to others, only they can launch attacks

And each connection partner has an equal ability to do so

[astral oxide]

Would it be like a HIGHLY connected area, like 4-8 gals always touching to limit the ability to just gal buffer from any real investment?

[runic pulsar]

We can use wild space map design to make interesting both high connective areas and chokes so its not all the same everywhere

Allow for potential flanks, ect.

[astral oxide]

then you just build to a choke and fortify the piss out of it like the old days... which wasn't terrible... but it certainly reduces the fluidity of the design

[runic pulsar]

By using this connectivity approach, we can have more strigent limits on how far something can be fortified.

We can know exactly how big of onslaughts a asset based attack an attack can have, and the defender can have, and control for them

Pretty much, can make it so even the highest invested in resource gal has a chance to be conquered

Oh and ofc, this approach can pretty freely use different slots then standard stations

[astral oxide]

Ok, so we have Account Base Slots, Character Base slots, Account "outpost slots", char "outpost slots" or something like that?

[runic pulsar]

Just like bvb slots before, yeah

Or even uh

You just have the slots be on the team.

If theres only one attacker and one defender, as two different teams. Theres no need to put the slots on the players

[astral oxide]

Ok, so there can only be one attacker and defender in this? If an aggressor holds two adjoining gals to the target on two different teams they can't initiate simultaneously?

[runic pulsar]

Yeah, thats necessary imo

Need to keep the amount of station assets, especially unattached, at reasonable numbers

[astral oxide]

Yes, need to think of the poor hamster

[runic pulsar]

And this can all use some sort of time zone system, like I did with LACS

Where regions of space have different main play times

[astral oxide]

How do trade skills function out there? Like are we still trying to balance CA/EE/StM kits or do the mechanics of the zone favor one or the other or it somehow equalized?

[runic pulsar]

Ive played a bunch of albion, they use a prime time system

[runic pulsar]

Trade skills may need to be changed to be more logical in a system like this

[astral oxide]

LACS timers seem pretty fair in general with their limited numbers.
I fear that because of the way resource distribution works out clustered attack times could be semi problematic... but idk of a better way outside of some sort of declaration system ala the EvE explination FAR above.

[runic pulsar]

Yeah, something like that may be logical.

The lacs are kinda my playground for this idea. But at some point the stuff i want to see how it goes wont work there

Actually if you notice, i specifically had goop extraction hyper simplified

No exe, one extractor per moon

[astral oxide]

Is there a good reason not to just delete it, or somehow incorporate it naturally into all of the Wild Wild Space?

[runic pulsar]

For now, dont like deleting things without solid reason. I dont think ive made a case for full trade skill removal yet without more to it.

[astral oxide]

Like.. if the WWS just had a perma 25% buff to extraction output that alone is a decent boon.
Toss in no Mites, easier setup and teardown.. you actually have some real capability for fluidity.

[runic pulsar]

That was actually what enk was thinking as a middle term

Just increase the lacs non lacs ratio

[astral oxide]

It's a little weird with them being p2p gated... Like you have to be p2p to build in WS already... but then there is the EF layer...

[runic pulsar]

Yeah i dunno. Ef layer building is really weird

Doesnt fit the game well in my mind rn

Extraction is very hard to get decent slots to do anything with, anyone trying to learn how to build probably cant find a spot

[astral oxide]

I was honestly thinking something similar. The question is how much is reasonable. Where is the line where you have viable ownable space vs if there are too many LACS will people care to fight over them at all?

If the basing time/costs decrease then suddenly the risk proposition decreases a lot.

Problem is pvp in LACs still doesn't allow for proper infastructure, so you have to solve for that.

[astral oxide]

I mean.. I'd like to see it be f2p only... but there is no way to stop vets from making f2p accounts.

[runic pulsar]

Thats right.

Really we need some sort of learn to build instance that can only make noob stuff

[astral oxide]

We had it.. we abused it, you took it away

[runic pulsar]

Yes because it couldn't just make noob stuff 😛

it would have to use like,, netals and muclear waste

[astral oxide]

I mean you need to teach about ICs and mites and stuff ideally too.
Need a T-1 IC 😄

[runic pulsar]

Yeah totally

Part of me just wants to do it all with unattached kits and i just explain extraction instead of actually having them do it

[astral oxide]

New tier commods for only that zone and like T9 blueprints and below. Dirt, Sand, Goo, Branches, Soylent

[runic pulsar]

Yeah

Could be fun but also a ton of work

[astral oxide]

Yea.. the time investment really iosn't worth the payout with new user uptake.
And it still doesn't really solve the problem of EF layer building and how a new player is supposed to progress through T20

[runic pulsar]

I think the answer is uh, it shouldnt need any ststions

And rn it really doesnt

As much as i loved playing with stations at t6 in glass matrix in c1

[astral oxide]

Oh the good old days of getting wiped by DTs

I mean the idea is that we give them a taste of endgame with T20 though right.. to get them hooked on the sauce... I know that is also a pipe dream.. and likely a much less realistic one... but you can dream.

Anyway... why does StM exist?

Can we just remove all combat stats from Trade skills and balance around EE/CA?

Is ther an advantage to requiring a non productive Trade skill?

[runic pulsar]

StM is used for:
Fights during gal claiming
Fights in LACS
Some wild space termite fighting layouts. (Yes, I have seen some that utilize StM)

[astral oxide]

Oh, I'm not saying there isn't a valid reason for it right now. I'm asking if there needs to be one. Is there some reason we can't balance around them not existing

[runic pulsar]

No there's no reason, it could certainly be balanced around

like, it doesn't absolutely need to exist

but that's also not good enough reason, at least for, me, to push for it's removal and do all the work that goes along with it

[astral oxide]

Because right now you put as few kits as you can on one and just have 4 base chars instead of 3 per account. With the availability of more chars on an account you can make up the loss of a trade char easy enough

[runic pulsar]

especially fi there's any potential ideas that would further need rebalancing (there are)

[astral oxide]

I assume most base stuff would be rebalanced already stat wise.

[runic pulsar]

Yes but if I just remove StM but keep all other things equal

[astral oxide]

I could totally be wrong though.. idk if you've run the numbers and think they're in a gud nuf state

[runic pulsar]

if we want to do another change to the system that needs aother rebalance of termite and base gear stats

I will be very sad

sad enough to just not find enough value in remove StM now

[astral oxide]

RIght now the value is rough though. Like they are good for mite defense, they've be needed for BvB defense because you know an aggressor is only going to use them

If something is REQUIRED.. then it is also jsut not required right? It's a bool

[runic pulsar]

But that's exactly what I'm saying about termites, they aren't required for termite defense but some people have found value in them

that layer of texture is almost enough for me.

I just have much better things to spend my time on then depreacting StM

[astral oxide]

Eh. Delete mites.. let the players be the mites and the safe space be safe

I mean.. with it in we'll just skill reset for BvB, then go back

And do we need mites any more? Like you CAN build t13s in blue gals and they live... are mites actually hurting people that know what they're doing?

In the new system, not the current. Just trying to think of ways to simplify the balance and transition (maintenance simplify.. obviously it's more up front work)

[primal aurora]

More mites. And nerf low tech and buff high tech kits.

[astral oxide]

Do we delete PvB to simplify it? As new content and techs release it complicates base balance as the state we're currently in.

What does it look like in a world with only BvB and only PvP with claimed racing on safe gals?

[main heath]

I quite like the simulation aspect of SS. Building a little empire is fun, but it takes so much effort and planning that it would suck if it was just BVB'd in my sleep, even with the tools I use to expedite the process (trade bays, kit loadouts...). I'd rather opt in to a separate system like you describe here that uses disposable kits and gear, and then it goes down to which team wants the gal more and is willing to fight over.

[astral oxide]

Base slot utilization is rough. You need to keep the levels to require multiple accounts.

Buffing high tech alone might do it if people are expected to have 2-3 safe gals and not 30.. promote the vertical naturally.

[primal aurora]

Yeah it needs love

Its especially with ca/colonies is flawed

[main heath]

For the PVP junkies, condensing space means there's more dangerous space that needs to be traversed in WS too 😛

[runic pulsar]

I really want to uh

[astral oxide]

Because atm t20s just aren't worth it in the overwhelming majority of space.
Mites only punish the uniformed currently.

[runic pulsar]

make wild space a place where more things happen then just building. Like imagine you can upgrade your gal to make actiities appear in it

the dream

[primal aurora]

Anyways. I don't think big swing. I rather make something new and experiment freely without messing with existing gear.

And then once concept is good we can look at wild space

But as roh said I'm in favor of clean lines

[main heath]

Truly personalizing and developing a gal sounds cool :o.

I hate my exotics with empty 7 slotters

[primal aurora]

Agreed

[main heath]

It sucks so much

[runic pulsar]

their for colonies lol

[astral oxide]

Rebalance expedition teams plox

[runic pulsar]

or expeditions if you want to

[main heath]

Just feels wrong

7 slotter empty is like wat, I'm looking for NUKES

But anyway yeah, progression needs to be decoupled from industry before we can talk about bvb imo >.>

[primal aurora]

Expeditions turned into spamming instead of a rare thing

[astral oxide]

I mean there is built in risk. You can nuke your planet with them.

[primal aurora]

They really should be more like rng rolls via colony development

[astral oxide]

With that AND the cost.. they just aren't viable in most situations

[primal aurora]

And building out the colony in exclusive pathing

Agriculture colony, industrial etc

And then you got a pay to develop it not just dump poor citizens

And development upkeep

Lay and forget is trash

But it has to be more optimization then required

Anyways open dreams

[astral oxide]

Problem is the time. Like if you had a hud and could just do it all remotely like a mini game.. I could see it. Flying around everwhere, marking what is and isn't done in spreadsheets, it's a real nightmare.

[primal aurora]

Time is fine. Traveling is fine but yeah needs to be clearly informed in game without needing a spreadsheet

Reasonable for one account. If you got multiple that's on you not us

[astral oxide]

I mean.. IS time fine? Are we going to balance it to where it's a reliable means to progression for multiple accounts based on the time?

[astral oxide]

No.. it's on you.. you've designed a system that requires multiple accounts realistically.. there is literally a screenshot of you saying as much above somewhere.

[tawdry sparrow]

there could be a tab on bases that shows you things like current extraction rate, fabricators, etc. so there's way less need for an excel sheet

[astral oxide]

I mean if all that is just built into the kits it simplifies that a bit.

Just need output values

[tawdry sparrow]

if it says metals: 5m per day. girders: consuming 5m metals. then you dont need to do math

[primal aurora]

Nah it's not required. I develop one green gal with one account and all you need is prom and enriched. Rest you can source just fine. The problems beyond that aren't gal problems but materials which is a whole another angle.

Yeah a status tab would be amazing.

But a heavy lift.

[astral oxide]

Also, your plan is kinda the opposite of everything we've been discussing in reducing the cost/time investment in bases.

Do we now have to run two parallel systems? One vertical progression system and one horizontal fluid system?

[primal aurora]

I agree laying and setting up galaxies should be streamlined and made easier. Just once starte to develop them or improve is where the time should take or cost should be but that's like optimization on top that said this topic is not homogeneous by dev team. And we can make some things streamlined and more like 4x in other ways

[dreamy bane]

Only one way to find out! Do a bvb server for SS upcoming anniversary

[primal aurora]

I wouldn't do one without the other.

Personally

[astral oxide]

With that level of lift would it ever get done though realistically?

[primal aurora]

It's a lot alot of moving pieces though. That's why I prefer chaos layer concept and iterate

Make whole different profession and streamline and experiment with stuff that decays and you have to improve.

[astral oxide]

Another layer kinda resolves stuff, but it also doesn't fix the existing issues with WS. And you still have to rebalance WS to try and push people to this new layer.

[summer oak]

I almost want to ask the dev team to make a BvB seasonal event on a server just so we all can finally experience it again and remember how horrible it is.

Staying up for 8+ hours to BvB was horrible

[primal aurora]

Seriously lol

Was awful

[astral oxide]

I mean if there is no real skin in the game idk if you'd get that.

[summer oak]

And because so much was on the line it was always a good idea to drag the fight out as long as possible.

[primal aurora]

I've only fallen asleep at my PC during bvbs

[summer oak]

But that's what made them memorable and fun

[dreamy bane]

lololol

i bet everyone would be so noob it would take forever but in a good way

[summer oak]

The high stakes. Like when Traders were sieging Fintushel (back when me and CLXXXIII were leading Salt and Pepper) and we put Lightning Bolts on the bases and made it so that you couldn't get in without getting instantly one shot and then defended for hours against them trying to BvB... only for an admin to make an adjustment and move Darksteel/Enk's(?) Sphere...

[dreamy bane]

shiiiit i dont remember how base healing works

[astral oxide]

eh, maybe if you put char slots on the line like pvp server or beta... though some people are going to already have 7 cap.. and pushing new limited caps seems dubious

[runic pulsar]

Wouldnt be character slot.

[astral oxide]

Yea, I just don't know if a skin/drydock/aug reset etc would get people out of bed. I don't really have an answer.

[runic pulsar]

@summer oak knows what we can tempt people with

[astral oxide]

C1 access?

[summer oak]

Something people won't be able to ignore

[astral oxide]

What if in this new layer you ONLY dropped BvB kits?
What if all the planets came with kits attached that already had all their infrastructure and couldn't attack/defend... but there was an objective that needed to be conquered that when destroyed became ownable by the victor and cost like.. some large amount of base slots to hold?
Kind of like a Wild Warp Beacon... you kill it, it drops an item, you scoop and deploy it.

You then have to defend it or someone else can come kill it and deploy it themselves.

Maybe the number of base slots it uses is related to the kits in the gal somehow and are seperate from standard Station slots.. but the BvB kits ARE part of your normal slots? So to actually defend it you have to sink a reasonable amount of real slots into the gal limiting what you can build in Safe Space?

Conquer objective should be balanced around needing idk.. at least 3-4 T20 kits to take. Then to defend.. well that is totally dependent on what is coming at you

[dreamy bane]

bvb kits apart of your normal slots put defenders at more disadvantage lmaoooooo

[astral oxide]

But all that is on the line is a few defense kits.. whatever the builder deems worthwile in relation to the output of the galaxy.
The extra slots are a means of mitigating sprawl.. so someone doesn't just go claim a bunch for a few days and leave them undefended, or have a couple fortified gals and then an inner cluster that requires no defense.

[peak vapor]

don't tease me

[dreamy bane]

the current mech of bvb slots is brilliant atm where ur bvb slots dont last forever and is separate from ur account slots. not to mention the slots is shared on tea m

its already doing wonders on sprawl

i dont feel like making someone choice betweeen eco/bvb slots is ok for those with lesss accounts than some

[astral oxide]

It doesn't work really in the new layer concept because Teams don't build as a unit and realistically can't be expected to.

[astral oxide]

I mean you could be like Jecht and own 1 Safe gal as a home base and then put the rest in high risk high reward, you could put them all in safe space and just miss out on whatever the new layer hook is.

I'm just trying to think of if there are ways to really simplify the process while maintain the game's economic model and giving you your fun.

[dreamy bane]

there you go again

my fun

bruh

[astral oxide]

I mean.. you'd go won and keep a few gals if you just got to BvB for them and they paid you with almost no extra effort right?

[astral oxide]

I'm saying you're right, BvB is fun. The way you initially pitched it isn't.. but the concept of it as a whole IS.

[dreamy bane]

i told already it wasn never about win/losing it was about joining a game and being part of a pretty nice feature and got removed cause of how some ppl feel about it and server issue

who u think come first? the player or the game

[astral oxide]

And I think there SHOULD be progression based on PvP.. right now it is literally only to grief... BUT... you have a BvB based econmic system where you can get paid for doing what you do and not needing spreadsheets... that's cool

[dreamy bane]

all this players knew what they signed up for long ago and cause they were ment with a lose turn sour when in truth not everyone can be winners

shiiiiits i been getting wiped daily back then

gettting a gal pass 24h to kill bots was milestone

but i didnt give up and didnt bash the game for those time i lost

[astral oxide]

The players are the game bud.. games are designed to be fun for the broadest possible playerbase.

There is a playerbase that wants to build in peace and have their cool 4x sim.
There is a playerbase that wants to fight for resources.

Both CAN exist at the same time.

I'm saying.. can we make a basically no cost/effort layer where the kits and augs and base gear and strategies pay out dividends.. where you get rewarded for your time and skill.

[dreamy bane]

bruh if i want to just test my skill in bvb we could keep it at bvb colo

remember that place?

ask how many teams used it xDDD

[astral oxide]

But... there would be actual rewards... that's the whole idea

Like.. you could kill stuff, and defend stuff, and not need a spread sheet, and get paid. There would be some purpose behind it.

You can balance the gal quality to take more slots but have bigger rewards so there is actual incentive to take something from someone and not just sprawl.

[runic pulsar]

Id think the actual utilization of the resources and the defenses would be different.

Defenses and combat would be team limited and extraction would use a standard players base slots. They may not even take part in the combat portion.

[astral oxide]

Now.. I 100% have no clue if the game can support an ownership system like that... I'm just wondering what something like that looks like... is it balancable with the rest of the existing systems?

[summer oak]

In an ideal world it wouldn't make sense for extraction kits to have anything to do with combat.

[astral oxide]

You can't really make things team limited in a new layer unless the expectation is that teams have to build together... which is a pretty rough ask.
I guess if you simplify the system enough maybe... but it gets all sorts of complicated with who is paying for how many accounts and how much effort was put into this.
Most teams don't just have a team prod, a lot of people run personal prods that are on the levels of a team prod... does that go away because the logistics of 20 people sharing one base is awful honestly.

[astral oxide]

Exactly.. they are just immortal shells that pass to whomever owns the objective

You balance the slot usage around either objective tiers or the number of resource kits, PLUS, defense kits as to not actually make it viable to own a ton of safe space AND the new layer.

without needing more accounts at least...

[runic pulsar]

The defending team gets lets say 10 kits per galaxy. Thats it. They can build up to the 10, or less. Doesnt matter who on the team lays them.

An attacker would also get up to 10

[summer oak]

I think a per galaxy limit on defense and attack would make the most sense

[astral oxide]

Sure

[runic pulsar]

Totally seperate from the extraction

If one person wants to do all 10, sure

It doesnt matter

[summer oak]

It wouldn't matter what team deployed them, the only thing that would matter is that the attack kits would be any kit that is deployed by a team other than the team aligned with galaxy ownership, and that team owns a galaxy adjacent.

[astral oxide]

I think team still kinda matters, like they have to be on the team owning an adjacent gal

[summer oak]

Yeah that's what I said

Now I could think of a weird scenario where maybe you try to put alt teams next to each other though

[astral oxide]

What's the difference, you just bvb through them both same as if they were on the same team

[summer oak]

So you have Salt and Pepper, Pepper and Salt, Oregano and Basil, etc. and you build in a cluster.

[runic pulsar]

Anyways, im not really at the point to discuss anything more specific about the idea in public feedback channels.

I just gave yall the idea since it directly addresses what was discussed

[runic pulsar]

There will always be a vulnerable border

[summer oak]

You could purposefully block deployed base slots

[runic pulsar]

You hit that

You missed an important point i said earlier hober

Its critical all neighbors have equal opportunity

I can think of a few ways that can manifest

[astral oxide]

It's the same idea as buffer gals.
You still only have the window to deploy/attack in.

[summer oak]

The only way that works is by having a rotating and exclusive attack window opportunity

[runic pulsar]

There would be a guarntee each neighbor gets a chance

[summer oak]

So each galaxy nearby gets to attack in sequence, each attack window

[runic pulsar]

Something like that indeed

[summer oak]

yeah that would solve it

actually that neatly solves a lot of other issues I was thinking of

Funny enough Roh

This strangely sounds like something you and I chatted about a year or so ago in DMs

And kinda fleshed out

👀

[runic pulsar]

Indeed

[astral oxide]

Windows is 72 hours between but there is a 96 hour cooldown.
And just because you declare on another gal doesn't mean someone from the other side doesn't declare on yours

[runic pulsar]

Something something chaos layer

[summer oak]

Something something yeah

[astral oxide]

Can the game support pvp enabled, bvb enabled but pvb disabled?

[summer oak]

Game could theoretically do whatever we wanted lol

[runic pulsar]

Yes

We got that ability for fractureds

[summer oak]

But I'm sure Jey could make it so bases can't be damaged by player ships, and only bases.

We can't turn that on in the game IMO until we make anti-base specific ships

[astral oxide]

Kinda.. you have bases aren't damagable.

[summer oak]

Yeah I know what you mean Dorian, and its doable

[runic pulsar]

I have more configuration than whats shown there.

[astral oxide]

Cool, just checking.

[runic pulsar]

Sure we can, the system can be entirely around station combat

[astral oxide]

Honestly from a balance perspective just eliminating pvb simplifies a lot.

[runic pulsar]

And ways to get footholds and deploy your fleet of offensive stations

[astral oxide]

oohh, transwarp beacons that go from private to public during the window

[wispy musk]

Did some maths.

[summer oak]

Well yeah, in a world where it is always possible to assail a galaxy

It doesn't need to be immediately possible, just eventually possible if you're willing to cut a swath through territory

[wispy musk]

Dorian mentioned earlier 330 bases across 11 accounts and he has multiple times mentioned termites bad STM bad STM non productive.

As well as his 9 tril a uni colony income across 200 colonies

Someone is using T12 bases almost exclusively. With probably the prod being T20 because factories.

[astral oxide]

Especially if costs are low and there isn't much opportunity cost to kitting multiple gals.
And if you can either transfer off owned gals to others to continue your march or just abandon them back to the void.

[runic pulsar]

Arent t12s bad for extraction per slot

[wispy musk]

You can cluster 20 T12 bases in a blue gal and termites will eat them alive. Even with a STM T20 ada kit in the area.

[astral oxide]

T13 bud, look at Gold Vs

[wispy musk]

Making my point for me, Dorian.

[astral oxide]

Same slot usage as a 12.

Prom bases only need to be T15.
T16s can defend blues without the need of higher

[runic pulsar]

I dont uh.. care that you can make t13s work in rare gals. Its a puzzle to solve. Sweet you did it.

[wispy musk]

The crappy Prototype Fermium Extractor from junkyard is T9

[astral oxide]

Not worth using

Not when you need 2000 per tick per colo unstable

[summer oak]

Glad you found a reason to use all your slots

[wispy musk]

But my point is your "termites big stronk can't deal with them and no I don't like STM" probably stems from using low tech kits.

[astral oxide]

wat? I never said that. In fact I said the opposite... only people that don't know what they're doing have issues with mites.

Ergo.. what is actually the point of them, to punish inexperienced builders?

[wispy musk]

As well as the colony income. Maybe it's the "three people" issue because AIC colonies do at least triple that number on less colonies.

White gals get basically no termites a single STM T16 ai base kit with andaman damage, firing, range, barricade can't handle.

Green gals can be defended by using T16 exes and clustering T16 platform drones (CNC kit is T16) aroundthe ownership kit.

Blue gals you can park a STM T16 dem/ada kit next to the CNC kit. Upgraded T16 kits (laconia, dem) in clusters are fine on their own with defensive aug setups.

Orange gals T18/T20 dem/ada kits. If you are in an orange gal and not deploying at least Lac T16, you need to rethink holding that galaxy.

[astral oxide]

Also.. white and green gals are actually the highest value targets in the current system. The density isn't there, but they are much more efficient to vert and total output is significantly higher in regards to base slot utilization compared to Blue/Orange gals.

[astral oxide]

You are WAY over estimating Mites

[wispy musk]

I watched for 2 months a white gal get no termites, and green gals termites were almost nonexistent, blue gals dealt with by either the STM or the EXEs. Orange gal was lul 25 ada kits.

I've had termites in all my green, blue and one orange gal with termites showing up in the orange and blues more than the greens.

[runic pulsar]

Different quality gals do not get mites at different rates

[astral oxide]

Mite rates are identical between the qualities I believe. The only thing that impacts freqeuncy is asset loss.
In a higher quality gal you are more likely to lose more assets.. so there may be the appearance that they are more frequent.

[wispy musk]

Okay then but my point still stands.

[astral oxide]

what point?

[wispy musk]

White termites are so weak you don't need a STM. Green gals termites can be dealt with by augging EXE kits. Blues might need a proper STM or more effective EXE augs + IC drones around the CNC. Orange gals are probably where a majority of production goes so you're surrounded by lots of strong bases.

[astral oxide]

StM kits are inefficient, they don't produce. They complicate balance and.

I was talking about a possible approach to trying to simplify systems.

[wispy musk]

How are termites still a problem for someone with 11 accounts of SM20 level 3000 characters with all or almost all characters in T23 ships

and have been playing the game since the 2010s

[astral oxide]

That's simply a terrible way to do things. You should never have your prod in an exotic... outside of unique gals like scorp with a decaying commod.

[runic pulsar]

I can tell you one thing, StM is not required for any quality.

[wispy musk]

You aren't some newb with 1 single level 1500 character building in orange gals only.

[astral oxide]

There is a point at which they ARE more efficient than non-StM kits as far as cost and gearing requirements.

[wispy musk]

You're a higher bar than Rendghast.

How are termites still a threat.

[astral oxide]

When did I say they are?

I literally said they aren't unless you don't know what you're doing.

[runic pulsar]

Notice how i didnt say efficient but required

[astral oxide]

And since they aren't actually explained.. that is basically any new player's experience

[queen flume]

Can you own a regular galaxy without ExE?

[wispy musk]

You keep mentioning "Make contestable galaxies have no termites" as if they are a threat to things like the current LACS galaxies.

Why would you even ask for no termites in a galaxy where (Attached) BvB happens.

[astral oxide]

I mean... you can own some if they have enough nuke slots.. but gals are noit currently balanced around having enough resources to claim without ExE AFAIK.

[runic pulsar]

I dont know? Probably an exotic using t20 extractors on every slot.

[astral oxide]

Why would you need them....
They are there to prevent spamming T3-9 kits mostly.
They are there to ensure a minimal level of investment.

If you are at risk in other ways you don't need them

[runic pulsar]

Lacs gals dont have termites, for those that arent aware

[astral oxide]

And as Jecht poiutned out, the solution is likely to at the very least Beef higher tier extractors until they are worth the investment.
Currently the kits cost more, the extractors cost more and the output to base slot efficiency IS slightly on their side.. assuming maximum utilization... but just barely.

But T9 kits are also not effcient and they lose out on most forms of extraction. Even if they were safe to use in exotics... you wouldn't want to because of the available extractors.

You might drop some low tech kits for some tier commods for efficiency... honestly... that's probably not going to swing their economy much.

[queen flume]

With Quasars, you'd need 222 T20 extractors on a non ExE to own. I think that means that only Rare and Exotic galaxies could possibly be owned without ExE.

[wispy musk]

2 T20 non-exe bases with 125 nukes extractors on the planets/moons they're attached to.

[runic pulsar]

Whats a quasar?

[runic pulsar]

With or wo exe

[queen flume]

Quasar Bottling Plant, the more efficient built bottling plant.

[astral oxide]

All that really only plays in a 60% of the uni is LACs gals world anyway... which is sort of a nightmare compared to a new layer.

The new layer idea actually increases the value of StM in a system like what I was proposing where the extraction is a result of ownership and defense.

[wispy musk]

i said without

[primal aurora]

It's the ic ic factories

[runic pulsar]

This comment doesnt have the word "without"

[queen flume]

it has non

[astral oxide]

And most gals aren't balanced around having that. Like I said some might be ownable without ExE... but the game isn't balanced to support that.

[wispy musk]

You need 14,400 fusion cells per day to own a galaxy which is 3,600,000 nukes. Two T20 non-EXE bases on 125 nukes (which isn't uncommon for an orange gal because of the fun resource concentration buffs, ❤️ best buff ever no joke) will supply a little under 3.9m nukes a day.

Or, you can just plonk a single T9 exe kit on one source of nukes and be fine for ownership.

[astral oxide]

It's not actually balanced around that either. It's like 78 adv nuke extractors with EE30... many gals don't even have that much

[wispy musk]

Non = No.

Non-EXE means no exe. Or Without EXE becauuse you want to argue grade 1 grammar.

[runic pulsar]

True lol

Sorry im in a car

[tawdry sparrow]

https://emoji.discord.st/emojis/292b7e5e-3617-4011-8aa5-7bcca48c40c3.gif

[wispy musk]

78 adv nuke extractors on exe30 is 4.9m nukes.

[astral oxide]

Maybe I'm thinking of the pre quasar number. idk, I generally don't try and run things on t9 nukes for long 😄

[runic pulsar]

Im not driving the car!!

But also i didnt say exe isnt required, just stm isnt

[astral oxide]

And idk that getting rid of StM is a good thing. But in a world where you have to run your own extraction you need to have the appropriate trade skills to make it worthwile at all.
If you're defending against BvB you're going to need to be StM during that time.

OR

You remove all excess combat stats from a TRADE skill.. and you balance around there only being CA/EXE so all your kits can be productive.
Balance the base gear stats off that, balance mites, etc.

Honestly it's a lot of work up front to simplify the balance going forward.

[wispy musk]

The lowest nukes count we've scanned so far is 146, in Wheels Low and Kunlan Expanse. The only way you wouldn't be able to own these gals with the resources inside (no asteroids) would be using T0 nukes extractors (exe or no exe) or level 1000 T9 exe kits.

[astral oxide]

In BvB land where you don't need ExE/CA kits.. StM IS the Trade skill... you just always run that out there and they have no impact on your production in the type of implementation I was suggesting.

And in the new layer, Mites aren't needed.. you only have defense kits.

[wispy musk]

You might not be able to do anything with the excess nukes besides fueling bases so their energy charge doesn't cut in half, but if you're above the bare minimum for perilous space, you can build in the Lowest Common Denominator wild space galaxies.

[astral oxide]

how many slots to get that many? Because the difference between 1 source greater than 44 and multiple sources below that is HUGE for efficiency.

[wispy musk]

Which is great because that's the number Rend was looking for.

[wispy musk]

Not relevant to discussion.

[astral oxide]

wat?

What is relevant.. I actually don't know what you're talking about still.

[wispy musk]

The question posed by Roh was "Can you own a galaxy with the resources in that one specific galaxy alone". It doesn't matter if you need a million slots or 1 slot on a special admin only base kit. The only two scenarios that you'd have to do are 1. Something for Building Academy tier players in their Tech 5 ships and Tech 0 bases, or Less than one EXE at level 1000 or lower level, which is not possible for people to want something substantial like an Olympus ship because they're going to a higher character level than the threshold at the point where they want to build gear for their T21 character.

[astral oxide]

The question asked by Nuke?

[wispy musk]

Since the max sm you can get in EF space is SM16, you SHOULD be above both of these thresholds by the time you need to do any build progression in wild space.

[astral oxide]

Because RoH just said you don't NEED StM to own any gal.
Nuke asked if you could own a gal without ExE.

The answer is yes... some of them.

[wispy musk]

If EF layer was limited to sm3 and you needed build progression for tech 5 ships, yes, there is a problem.

But it's not.

You'll be pushing T21 ships in the most minimum desire to do any major build progression meaning you'll have the ability to get EXE on the one character, find a little white quality galaxy, and build your T21 ship. Might not have fermium or tiered commods (dg drops), though, but the other raw materials can be obtained for those few builds in that galaxy.

[astral oxide]

I'm genuinely curious, what question are you answering right now? Is this like in regards to viability of EF layer building vs WS building? And how did we get there?

[runic pulsar]

Lol what

Nuked asked a thought experiment we already all know the answer to. You can kinda own gals without exe. But you wouldnt want to it would be really stupid

I think nuke was trying to say like.. oh you dont need stm.. what about exe!? Trying to throw a wrench in the trade skill needs

[astral oxide]

stupid inefficient

[runic pulsar]

But i honestly dont care that all players dont want an equal amount of the different trade skills.

Thats not a problem to solve in my mind

[astral oxide]

Totally, some people are balanced, some people focus ExE only. Any way you slice it you want as few StM slots in use as you can.

[runic pulsar]

If i was designing from the ground up, i would try to make them more balanced. But i aint

[tawdry sparrow]

stm is like the military, hopefully you wont need it

[astral oxide]

I mean in the current system they aren't too unbalanced. Generally it is harder to cap around CA only as Exe is basically required... but it's also hard to own enough space to use only CA slots. You'd have to be targetiing only Blue/orange.. and they you're running high tech CA which is laso bad.

[astral oxide]

If we get something like a production output for just holding StM is suddenly pretty neat... you could go pure StM and still do alright.

[wispy musk]

Passive colonies of babs, microchips, nukes, workers, and entertainers very little profit

Probably why you have 200

Factoring in the basic colony commods you can probably slash those numbers to 100 colonies and still make the same profit.

Then AIC colonies you could probably cut it to 20 colonies for same profit.

But of course, if you're a passive builder and don't do lockouts, I guess 200 colonies best thing to do. Be Trevor 2.0.

[astral oxide]

Well that's just not true.. I know the ratios of each Colo IC value to normals. Only 1 comes close to that.

[astral oxide]

I don't do lockouts? You know I had the highest boss score for multiple unis in a row when I was active. right? Like.. killed literally everything.. most things on 7+ chars each week?
Also.. what does that have to do with BvB?

[astral oxide]

And these are ~60% of normal colo profits.. idk if you're talking metals and sili as other basic colo commods, or if you mean prom.

[wispy musk]

Shifting the goalpoint back to original topic because you know you're either doing things inefficiently and don't want to change or someone is about to school you hard and you don't like that.

[wispy musk]

What does this have to do with bvb?

Nothing.

But you are in the sub-conversation so I'm continuing the discussion.

[astral oxide]

We were talking about Trade skills in relation to a basing rework... because YOU brought it back up... I'm really confused.

You brought back up the mites and misread what I posted opr something intially too, which is fine, that happens. But I corrected you a couple times and you kept going lol.

[wispy musk]

And the discussion is that AIC brings in so much cash it's not funny anymore. When the devs (Hober specifically) is talking about making trillions for a small crop of colonies (20-30), you'd think "Oh sh#t! With 60 colonies I can equal 300 of my passive colonies I keep telling and whining to people take too long to set up so I can cut down my total galaxy management time by a factor of five and even if they're 30 T20 coloniies I can still get close to those numbers so I can cut down my management time even further? Sign me up!"

But no, have fun spending a month of irl time setting up 300 colonies from the 2010 days.

[astral oxide]

I've done Colo IC(s).. probably more than most.... I've been actively tracking them this uni post buffs too.. and as I told Enk before, doubling revenue... is silly for some of them... but fairly reasonable for most considering the amount of colos you need to feed into them.

I'm not really going to go into too much depth here because obviously not everyone has solved that problem and I don't want to detract from their learning experience.

And honestly, you want to remove those fromsafe space cool... I'm good with those being high risk high reward... though getting all the pieces moving to make that work is kinda tricky in practice.

[tidal iris]

isn't there an alternative for building safely for newer/inexperienced players? earthforce space?

[runic pulsar]

Most extractor slots get taken by non new players who don't want to deal with wild space

or are f2p

it's pretty uncommon that a proper newer player can actually find a nice place to learn to build with extraction and all

[tidal iris]

make ef space similar to f2p level 2k max to build there. might incentize some subs for those higher guys who want to play farmville ss style

[astral oxide]

That causes issues with shops and stuff. Plus... it's not really f2p only.. it's just f2p can only.build there.

It also doesn't teach about ownership, mites, ai empires, etc.. so it's a partial experience anyway.

[opaque dome]

they should experience bvb

[dreamy bane]

Something like this can't be fix among the community

Pretty sure the player base can blacklist someone who try this

If it was implemented

Would do them more harm than good

[zinc star]

Think you quoted the wrong one. I only saw roh talking about the lack of proper real-estate and conditions to learn building.

[scenic tiger]

Why don’t we just go back to the old days where your ship didn’t even go into stasis it just blew up. And other people could cap your ship. All bases could be attacked even in free market. let’s go back to the wild Wild West of SS 🤣

NGL those were the days. But also most people ships were just made up of stuff you bought at the AI base.

[primal aurora]

Definitely not. But those are areas to explore in opt in environments

[scenic tiger]

mostly kidding but opt in would be cool

[astral oxide]

Opt-in perma death... spicey

[summer oak]

In a world where ships and drops and everything weren't super rare and you could get almost anything from anywhere it would make sense

Like, if you didn't get Serengeti stuff from a single boss in a single galaxy and instead the Serengeti was like a layer and getting stuff wasn't so hard

[scenic tiger]

yea back then there was no ai gear drops that didnt also come from an ai station. just augmenters.

[summer oak]

Uh, I think there were AI gear drops that didn't come from an AI station

There was the Equalaser and uh

something else?

Light of Peace iirc?

Catapults?

Or was that just after stasis generators got added?

[river jasper]

i think you're just describing EVE Online tbh

ships permadie but they're also really cheap, you can get a good ship in like a hour of effort sometimes

way waaay less if you're talking about cheapo stuff that sane people fight in

[scenic tiger]

that was after stasis gens got added

2004 SS was wild

[peak vapor]

imagine having 20 fitted rifters or tristans in your hangar ready for the memes

[river jasper]

not the same ship but:

[opaque dome]

@astral oxide enjoying that bvb son?

[compact raft]

I think we should continue with the BvB update rollout after todays events

@runic pulsar get it chugging

[runic pulsar]

@compact raft could you give me a break down of todays events?

[compact raft]

LACs gal fiesta fun 😉

[runic pulsar]

brings a tear to my eye

any dnd kits dropped?

[compact raft]

nah just raw bvb

[zinc star]

Hmm.. has anybody ever used a dnd kit to pvb? It's been an option but I've not seen it. I either see bvb or raw pvb.