Test server ranger changes (crit % cap, use target crit resist)

[pastel drum]

What do you mean?

[rose meadow]

We do that all the time, not every scaler needs to be stat dependement

[pastel drum]

Marks only scale from Crit stats and Damage Dorian

What Roh suggested does exactly what you want without making the class infinitely scale with crit chance

[rose meadow]

Not if the damage multiplier is only on marks.

It would not impact not using marks

[livid sonnet]

immortal shm doing 6.3m hits. who needs ranger lmao

[pastel drum]

Mind showing us how much damage you take when you shoot?

[wooden apex]

You get that Criit Chance is the only DPS scalar that doesn't help non-mark builds past the 175% already right.. By doing this your are normalizing mark and unmark damage meaning that they just scale other axis.
The problem is... doing that is most efficient.. and also ruins the playstyle of the class.... It's like LF ShM...

[wooden apex]

I got mine up to 22M DPH, good luck

[pastel drum]

What Roh suggested does not scale non mark damage

A mark multiplier does NOT scale non mark damage

[livid sonnet]

how? it doesnt show in /showpain

[wooden apex]

Nope.. it scales mark damage, which is JUST bonus DPS to a non-m,ark centric build

[livid sonnet]

i'm doing an actual build, not a meme cerb

[pastel drum]

I dunno, show your shield bar? Screenrecord?

[livid sonnet]

ok

[pastel drum]

You dropped to 550k from a single shot? O_O

[wooden apex]

hawt

[livid sonnet]

yes, my shield goes full to 500k constantly while shooting

[wooden apex]

Yea.. shield consumption for damage is pretty gross... ShM is in a pretty bad spot... I think I made a different thread about that.

[livid sonnet]

i disgaree, this will be my live build lmao

[wooden apex]

Oh I made some good builds too.... but they are bad for what ShM should be

Because they broke the class.. and made it more viable to play in abusive variants instead of how it is intended

[livid sonnet]

how do i convert a recording into a smaller size? 😅

[rose meadow]

not easily

need a video editing software

[livid sonnet]

i'll try to do a fast video then

[rose meadow]

easier to record it from the start as a smaller size

[livid sonnet]

oh

[tender bolt]

can do a gif or something low frame rate

[rose meadow]

if ur using OBS you can change ur output

[ivory cedar]

I use ScreenToGif

For small stuff

[livid sonnet]

i was using "windowskey+g" w/e that is

[ivory cedar]

You can control how many frames

[pastel drum]

just copy the file and paste it in the chat

Thats what I do

[wooden apex]

Gamebar, oof

[livid sonnet]

i cant, too big lmao

[proven kite]

I think this is a fair and valid point, but this doesn't justify a nerf, all the crit chance scaling lost through crit chance is nowhere to be seen in the other scalers of Ranger. This is the main pain point of this change.

[pastel drum]

Yes, that scalar was massive as hell

We don't want Ranger scaling in that way

Someone posted a graph here

#1356347830867988511 message

[rose meadow]

(it was super lol)

[proven kite]

it wasn't massive, it was necessary and happened over 24 (28 now) seconds

[rose meadow]

the scaler of being able to use infinite crit chance was massive, is what hober meant

[proven kite]

and now its capped to 100% great, but now the lack of said scaler leaves the class stranted

so where can we get that remaining damage back

[proven kite]

we cant get it from RoF?

we can't get it from pure damage

[pastel drum]

You are not going to get all of that remaining damage back

We are trying to figure out how much of that damage we should give back, and how. But we are not giving it all back.

[proven kite]

multiple players have posted their experiance in test compared to other classes

[ivory cedar]

Stranted?

[proven kite]

its now pretty much the worst dps class on test

so unless you guys actually do add some drastic damage multipliers to the class skills It will stay bad

[livid sonnet]

shm is literally the best dps class

[proven kite]

because from what i'm reading, the alternative would be to wait until you release t24-t25 gear in year 3020

[wooden apex]

So reduce the multiplier on it while leaving it uncapped.
Making it so the marks scale off all the same axis as regular shots just encourages scaling RoF which puts it in the same place as old sniper... without the ability to burst effectively.

[sour hill]

Might be worth exploring giving back the previous damages that were taken from grit skill and when the 7th mark was added.

[ivory cedar]

We can add damage but as Hober said. It's not going to be uncapped.

[wooden apex]

Your work here is great, could you put it in an appropriate feedback thread?

[ivory cedar]

Yeah I'd be curious if enveloper is busted :D. Either DM me or make a thread ❤️

[rose meadow]

https://discord.com/channels/162979076695523331/1355067507366694922 it's here

[ivory cedar]

Ah thanks.

[livid sonnet]

i think it's an appropiate comparison since changes were made like last patch and we're talking about where classes should be 🤷

[pastel drum]

That's on the table

The intention is that it does a lot of damage over a long time, its not going to have super high DPS numbers while ALSO being sustainable. That's an unreasonable ask.

[sour hill]

Right, the crit changes do that

[pastel drum]

The way the class is designed, the best way to scale your sustainable DPS is to not put too much into RoF.

[wooden apex]

How much DPS is reasonable sustained?

[pastel drum]

If you want to push past that you'll need RoF, but the gains aren't that big.

[tender bolt]

And for how long

[proven kite]

the other problem I have here is that this traditional way of playing Ranger, like how you would scale a gunner or Zerker or SD, does not work for Ranger

[tender bolt]

We talking 1 minute? 2? 5? 10? 60?
We going to be hitting this sustained dps in any current content?

How long did it take to cap out the sniper analyzer before?

[wooden apex]

When other classes are easily putting out 2-3M of DPS for longer than any fight currently lasts.... where is the target, where is the goal.

[proven kite]

there's no amount of RoF you can get from substituting the Empower shot scaler (Crit chance/Strength/Damage) that can compare to the current Rangerscope playstyle

[wooden apex]

Mind you they actually ahve the ability to use AoE, have lofe steal, can use stealth, have immediate threat... you know... things Ranger doesn't now.

[proven kite]

2 seconds might come close, but you will not have the same capabilities to do content vs if you are firing around the 4second empowered shot playstyle

[wooden apex]

There is, I literally did it... you target perfect intervals while scaling all 4 axis. Best bet is the 2-2.5 second RoF target. Some weapons might be able to go to a 1s target... but there really isn't anything in game that scales well for that

[proven kite]

do you think a less geared ranger can accomplish that?

[pastel drum]

My back of the napkin thoughts are that old really end game Snipers used to get like 2-3mil sustained DPS with an Engineer and some support. I think Ranger doing somewhere around there as a baseline is ok. I could see them getting to like 4mil being kinda cool.

[wooden apex]

Yea.. the class identity is dead.. it will always be better to scale more axis of damage.

[pastel drum]

That was with a really DPS heavy setup.

[wooden apex]

Yea, my Cerb setup is already doing 5m

and if I threw some bots together matriarch would be cake.. without tweaks or bots or a push tractor I was pushing 3rd phase with ease.

[proven kite]

#1356347830867988511 message is this not the cerb setup?

[wooden apex]

And I'm still only 28 vis.. I can stealth most content in the game.... but it's gross.

[tender bolt]

I think that was going full rof bank dps

[wooden apex]

Nope, that was a 2.02 second fire time setup

It's usable.. would be much better in DGs than current Ranger

[pastel drum]

I don't think anyone should have to use Cerb to get about 3mil DPS, actual DPS against a no crit resist test target.

Especially if they're using tweaks and getting support

Are any of these Ranger setup numbers with using a Damage tweak every chance you get?

Are these tweak less? because historically people used tweaks

[wooden apex]

I was hiting the 50% crit res target.. It would probabaly only be 4.5m dps agaisnt the 75%

[wooden apex]

We always compare DPS in tweakless numbers... tweaked numbers have too much variance

[tender bolt]

trying to squeeze two shots off of a 6s damage tweak

[wooden apex]

And most classes are going to use something like a NF burst.... Raw damage tweaks are pretty tragic

[pastel drum]

Perilous Strength is 10 seconds though

Assassination is 12

In a squad setting your getting FC buff perma

[tender bolt]

Assassination is the most class appropriate

[sour hill]

Shelling focus is 8, that’s what I use in pvai

[tender bolt]

You ever get to 3 shots?

[wooden apex]

I just use the Bisarme bombard and get 2 shots per tweak

[sour hill]

Nah just two

[wooden apex]

literally impossible, the arm time on the Scope is slightly higher than 4s

[sour hill]

Empowered that is

[tender bolt]

theoretically possible but not technically

[sour hill]

I’ve tried even with perfect timing two is max

[proven kite]

also @pastel drum how do you think a build like this fairs in pvp?

#1356347830867988511 message

[wooden apex]

I mean even if all the timings were accurate to the pico second you would have order of operations and couldn't do it

because you have to tweak before you shoot the first time which will always but it behind on the stack

[wooden apex]

Come pvp me on test?

[livid sonnet]

with drones to heal me a little. still no bots tho 😏

[pastel drum]

I have no idea I can't even see all the stats

[pastel drum]

Would really like to see someone PvP you tbh

[pastel drum]

750k DPS seems legit.

I got it up to 1mil in some testing I did with an LAAA

[livid sonnet]

it's 1m dps, the vid isnt long enough but it is

[pastel drum]

ah ok

Seems like you went about it in a different way

I was at like 900somethingK with a setup that could still heal and take some hits

[livid sonnet]

i'm pretty sure i can heal just fine

[pastel drum]

lol probably

[livid sonnet]

i dont have a problem with it btw. i'm just bringing it up because it literally deals more dmg than single ranger marks (unless you tweak and cerb)

[tender bolt]

@proven kite it's a tie 🤣

[pastel drum]

I don't think dealing more damage than a single ranger mark is that big of a deal

[pastel drum]

Oh?

[wooden apex]

2 ships entered, 2 spirits left lol

[livid sonnet]

with 200k shield regen

[pastel drum]

Would never have been a tie on live I bet lmao

Was this 2 Ranger? If so I take that back.

[proven kite]

yea i killed first, got hit after, both died

[livid sonnet]

i didnt build for pvp. just to do dgs/matri 😅

[proven kite]

clear feedback for pvp, the status quo doesn't change

its still LF > HF > SF > Capital < LF

[rose meadow]

SF beats capital ship?

Notably engi loses to gunner.

[proven kite]

engi doesn't lose to gunner, only their drones do

well actually, that's up to engineers to explain idk

[rose meadow]

what does an engi do to a gunner without drones?

stare at them?

I doubt they'd out regen.

[proven kite]

tractor them away and run, and repair drones

the gunner is most likely going to run of elec if they used DB to kill drones

[rose meadow]

that's a pretty spicy take lol

[tender bolt]

I got rocket come back

[pastel drum]

So LF beats everything and Capital beats nothing?

[wooden apex]

I mean I always just jumpped behind them and dropped Badgers.. if they out positioned then go to Red Plats. Gunner is hard though... 75% crit resi

[wooden apex]

This seems accurate

[proven kite]

yes

in a single 1v1s those are the betting odds

ofc skill is involved but generally those are the base odds for classes in pvp settings

[tender bolt]

Gunner beats assets. Multi-target is king in big fights.

[proven kite]

and FC can beat everything

if you have enough of them in one spot

[raw junco]

now im not as endgame as these other fellows and after some more testing and working around augs to keep crit strength high and a reasonable crit chance im still loticing around 40%

top is pre 2xdesist bottom is something else even with the increased 400% dmg

[proven kite]

have you tried auto-firing, what's your dps if you just hold down spacebar on live vs test? that's how i think the team wants rangers to function post these changes

[raw junco]

testing in matri so u cant really autofire as u lose way too much dmg if u move

different setup similar trade offs

with more dmg., and crit stength than current desist setup and still a 40 percent loss the argument u can fire between enpowered shots is valid however in matri etc that usually when u are repositioning

and pishing numbers even more still around 33 ish

[faint bane]

1v1 on the overhand..

[subtle patio]

If they spent half as much time developing new content as they do gutting existing stuff to provoke unhealthy debate, we'd have too much content to do to complain about the never ending cycle of changing our setups, that we've spent months fine tuning through neuroforge.

Obviously the non stop debate cycle creates content for one person in this thread, but it's a bit tiring for most.

[serene saddle]

got me lol

I've now gotten up to date on this thread. It seems like some folks are wanting to know what level of thought went into this move. We actually considered a lot of alternatives and I was a vocal proponent of keeping the unusual crit chance math in the empowered shot. I really pushed the team to prove to me that we should do away with it as I generally am supportive of classes having different utility functions for different stats. Ultimately, what swayed me here is that the uncapped critical hit chance formula for Ranger was always going to drive the class meta to extremes in a way that would make anything but a pure empowered shot playstyle impractical. What we are trying to do here is make it so that Ranger can certainly still do all its usual PvE things with empowered shots, but Rangers don't feel completely forced into playing purely with empowered shots.

Based on our internal testing and with a lot of help from certain players such as Damen, we are of the opinion that Ranger is OK in PvE under these changes. Even though it loses a lot of DPS, we have still seen Ranger doing fine in a variety of PvE environments. What we have not been able to test internally is how these changes can impact Ranger's PvP abilities.

As Roh has mentioned, it's easy for us to give damage to the class if the critical math change has reduced the DPS output below where it needs to be. I will say though, the feedback I've seen so far doesn't seem to strongly support this need. In principle, we could also consider giving some utility stats to the class if the reduced DPS means that Ranger needs to use a different play style in PvP. I would welcome any feedback along the lines of what Ranger seems to be missing in PvP.

[raw junco]

the problem is with ur proposed changes they are being balanced around high end setups/weapons

[serene saddle]

If you're worried about how a midgame Ranger will manage in PvE, please let me know about that and I can ask the team to do a bit more internal testing.

The easiest thing in the world is for us to give Ranger back some raw power via stats in its class skills. We just don't want to give it so much that it distorts the game.

[raw junco]

this is both laa with firing just enpowered and constant space bar holding

bottom is constant space bar holding

with a defiler u can half that number

so unless ur running a laaa ur numbers are pathetic

[sage egret]

the frustrating part about this is that its just a static value, and not something that can really be influenced by player progression/decisions.

[raw junco]

rangers constantly need to reposition in the majority of PVE content unless u take a 30 percent dps loss from moving even in kalthi dgs where everything now has a tractor making those numbers even mroe complicated

[serene saddle]

Don’t you think the empowered shot already gives Ranger quite an interesting mechanic to work around?

[sage egret]

I do appreciate the clear explanation as to reasons. From my perspective though, if I dont want to play around scope, I would play another class. The scope aspect and how it scales with player stats provide a unique flavor to ranger that helps set it apart from every other space bar class

sure, and thats the point

[serene saddle]

To be very clear, I fully expect Ranger to still work around the scope.

Nothing in this move implies that we think Ranger will stop using the scope

We just want to pull back from the extreme a little bit

[raw junco]

and with the changes to maximise ur gonna need different ships for different weapon types

[serene saddle]

I have to step away now but I will review this thread again soon

[raw junco]

because of hitting the sweet spot on rof

[sage egret]

for sure. its just always interesting when a class can scale in a unique way, in this case crit %. Not arguing that it shouldn't be toned down either.

[raw junco]

so u dont lose time on the enpowered as each weap ur aiming for around 2 secs

[sour hill]

While I did test with my main ranger I’ve also tested with my ranger alts using mid range setups. The crit change has to happen for balance reasons.

I have also suggested that some more damage needs to be injected back into the class to help compensate. Starting primarily with the previous damage nerfs on Ranger being restored.

I think one thing we can all agree on is Ranger (at least on the meta end) is slightly overpowered) than any other dps class. This has created disparities in PvE and PvP. I stand to lose a lot in these changes too but I helped test it and give feedback for the betterment of the game itself.

[proven kite]

I don't agree on this from a pvp perspective, ranger damage from a pvp side isn't very good and is only substantial if you manage to survive for the 5-7 empowered shots.

Vs any other prominent pvp class like Zerker, most Rangers would not stand a chance

As for testing I did vs @tender bolt , it fairs poorly vs LF classes like Seer and SD, who can both run circles around Rangers with superior class design and setup availabilities

I was only able to kill his seer 1 time and that was due to both pre-known location info and surprise from the amount of range i had on my specific setup

As for SD, no shot

[sour hill]

That’s mostly cause people have caught on and are stacking radiation resistance. Everyone using an laaa will do that.

I smoke most seers and sds with my Ranger so I’ve had a different experience

[proven kite]

The othe pressing thing is i don't understand what the pvp feedback was supposed to suggest? We all know Rangers excel at single target seiges and open messy large scale pvp where there's too much going on for them to be the sole focus on any side

Was this change meant to make that aspect of ranger worse or better?

[sour hill]

They just wanted feedback of the nerf to Ranger dmg output is too much so they can add back some damage stats. I think we’ve come to the conclusion that’s needed

[proven kite]

But how much do they add back?

[sour hill]

I dunno yet I’m not in the internal discussions

[proven kite]

How do we suggest how much to add back, I assume I can't say the 90% that Cojines is suggesting from his research

But if we are looking for numbers compared to zerk it will have to be 90% to compensate how much damage we lost through these new resistance and limiting factors

[rose meadow]

Cojines research was to determine how much damage a ranger without empowered shots would need to be competitive with zerk DGing.

It wasnt what he thinks ranger needs in thr current state.

[proven kite]

But we are being asked to consider playstyles that do not solely rely on empowered shots

So why not start by looking at how much damage is lost comparatively without using it and start there?

[rose meadow]

Yes, rely not solely on empowered shots, not delete empowered shots entirely like what prompt had cojines come up with their value.

[pastel drum]

What enk pointed out was that the meta on live is so extreme that the only thing anyone ever does is use empowered shots because its never a good idea to use non empowered shots. We don't want it to be a Forgone Conclusion that you never use normal shots.

We also want it to be viewed as viable to use setups that don't fully rely on timing empowered shots.

I am of the opinion that Ranger could use a chunky Damage bonus so it continues to do a lot of damage when ramped up, personally.

[sour hill]

That’s not really gonna happen outside of anecdotal things. The lack of rof scaling it would be dumb to build Ranger any other way than dph.

That’s okay though. Zerk is the rof combat class

It’s okay that Ranger is locked into going for empowered shots. That’s it’s identity imo

The crit chance scaling damage is wild and needed to change

However I do believe that this change is heavy enough to warrant reversing previous ranger nerfs

[proven kite]

Do you guys know how high of a damage bonus Rangers get from empowered shots at each interval?

Like over a 28 second interval

I guess the formula is still a secret

[rose meadow]

You can calculate it too

It would be the same amount of work that I would take to calculate it

[proven kite]

I'm bad a math so I can't really, I don't know how much 100% crit chance is factoring in for the empowered shots vs if it was 50% or 25%

[wooden apex]

Is it? Is crit chance that much more of an available stat? You can get setups with thousands of percent damage and RoF mods, well over 600 crit str, idk that I've seen anyone push crit chance to even 300.

I understand there is a fear that it will be imbalanced with additional content that is to be seen, but are the other dps mods not also going to have parallels?

[rose meadow]

So youre just wondering in what way crit chance applies damage to empowered shots?

[proven kite]

I'm wondering how much of a damage bonus you guys want empowered shots to give vs non empowered shots

[rose meadow]

I dont have some golden number or golden ratio to give you. Its not a hard and fast number or percentage

[pastel drum]

Enk already laid it out super

[pastel drum]

This right here.

I dont want to have to be super careful when making gear/items in the future with crit chance

It sucks if we have to be super wary of making items and stuff because a single class can scale infinitely with it in a way that no other class does.

[proven kite]

I know enk pointed it out, what I'm referring to is this tho:
"As Roh has mentioned, it's easy for us to give damage to the class if the critical math change has reduced the DPS output below where it needs to be."

What is "where it needs to be", what factors are you using to determine this?

[serene saddle]

one of the things we checked is whether Damen can still do his usual PvE targets

that's just an example

based on our testing (internal and with the help of players such a Damen) we have gotten the impression that Ranger can still perform adequately in PvE under this change. That's still open for discussion if folks point us in a direction that sheds doubt on that finding, but that is where we are starting from

what we have lacked testing on is PvP because it's difficult for us to construct a PvP test case internally

because the numeric swing in DPS is pretty large, I insisted to the designers that they find a way to gather a bit more information on the impact before shipping it live. that is why we are here

in general, if we are proposing to swing a key indicator by more than 50% I am asking the team to do extra work to gauge the impact

[sour hill]

Yes, also no other class gets to scale with crit chance in this way.

[proven kite]

Have you found any players that are struggling with the current iteration of ranger on live? How do they progress with and without a group or though the use of Mcing? Are they missing key items that aren't accessible through basic mean and is it intuitive how those struggles could be overcome? I don't know if info like that is considered but I would assume when you say players such as Damen who have played ranger since it's rework and have the resources to min-max it, you would also likes to hear from the other side of the isle?

[serene saddle]

Certainly, I want to hear diverse perspectives on the experience of the class. That is why I am here!

Folks like Damen have greatly increased our ability to test ideas internally but we can only do so much without the feedback of the broader community

Analytics and equations only take you so far.

[livid sonnet]

can somebody do lockouts without laaa? (including matri)

i already know what would happen but i want somebody else complaining 😅

damen did you do that pve stuff without laaa?

i think it's imporant somebody with influence checks that. definitely not all rangers have laaa, and it's probably the most expensive item in the game

also 1 dg, just 1

[wooden apex]

I mean there are budget options, but without ethereal they can be rough. celestial treb, stygian fist, defiler, emp divide, rockets are all.sort of viable.

[sour hill]

No to be fair I’ve been quite busy with work and I’m just an average SS player not in the dev team so I only tested things I normally do and provided feedback

[livid sonnet]

i wlecome somebody to try and do ce with a stygian fist

with these changes

[sour hill]

Well someone gave those ai rapid fire envelopes so good luck haha

[sour hill]

Same outcome before these changes though. Crit scaling doesn’t affect that at all

[wooden apex]

You'd use treb for the phys weakness

[livid sonnet]

i'm not one of the op laaa rangers so i only have a defiler, which is enough, and it will still be enough, just taking more than twice as long

[sour hill]

My stance is literally this. Crit damage scaling should be capped as there are some edge case extremes and this limits crit gear going forward because the dev team would have to be mindful of it.

Ranger needs more raw damage injected into it to compensate

[livid sonnet]

idc about how the class scales. just give dmg

[sour hill]

Because damage hasn’t been injected back into the class yet. We are testing technically three nerfs right now

Not only is the crit chance scaling change happening but we’ve already had about 45% damage nerf from true grit and 7 marks now

So the affects are really being felt

I implore dev team to revert the latter 2 nerfs on test and let us test to see if it feels right

[rustic pond]

Maybe Ranger can get Shm treatment, a -90% damage patch followed by a promice might get something back in future

[rose meadow]

Revert the latter nerf? So go back to 6 marks from 7?

[livid sonnet]

spirit did you see my dps test with shm?

[sour hill]

Could start with just the 30% damage from true grit being put back in

But yes if that’s not enough

[rustic pond]

Nope

[livid sonnet]

.

[proven kite]

Just go to 10 marks

[sour hill]

10 marks would lower the damage up front even more subnet

What u mean?

[proven kite]

I know

[sour hill]

Then it’s 40 seconds to ramp

[proven kite]

That's what's already pre-planned

[rose meadow]

It's not pre-planned that we are guarnted to do it.

But sure, the image exists

[proven kite]

The img is already in files, just rip the bandage off

[sour hill]

It doesn’t have to be doom and gloom lol

The crit chance change is huge yes but just advocate for more raw damage

[rose meadow]

no?

Not without considering it's the right move

which has not been determined at this time

I could also easily go request a mark x20 image

doesn't mean we should up it to 20

[rustic pond]

Roughtly 1.3m tweaked DPS with what I asume is a setup for it specificly and in a optimal senario (you aint being shot nor required to heal anyone else)?

[livid sonnet]

its a little lower, 1m. not using dmg tweaks/drones/bots tho

that's true it's a pve setup

[rustic pond]

Had a damage aura/tweak of +14.70% tho?

[livid sonnet]

yes but you can still do things like healer drones + dmg tweak, or just dmg tweak and 1 shot something at full hp

[wooden apex]

Please please please talk about shm in the shm thread, I'm begging you.

[ivory cedar]

#1355067507366694922

[sonic lava]

You pvp with nuke and who else

And you are telling me you manage to get 5- 7 marks on a sd?

[wooden apex]

Live gear directly Translated to Test2

Swapping out cloak, OL, Expander, losing no SI mods taking crit chance to 171%

Mark damage initial and after adjusting available gear to hit new optimal thresholds

Current Live

So we're talking about ~50% DPS loss even when adjusting to the new optimal ranges for mark only.

Now mind you these are not Desist/Illumi setups... and it's pretty unreasonable to expect that to be the floor.

As I said before, anything you do to just increase mark damage is just going to add DPS to RoF integrated builds and probably push their DPS beyond current Live.

[livid sonnet]

can you do ce on test2 without a laaa? i'm curious what you think

or dem delquad

[wooden apex]

was headed that direction

Though no revealed map iot might take a minute to find it at Ranger speeds

[sonic lava]

range still fine on test it seems with those numbers

im guessing all that is untweaked right

[rose meadow]

#paxian-relay message
Test 2 is a fresh universe. If you need a map there, DM @Roh .

[wooden apex]

That's untweaked optimal sitting still LAAA damage on a char with maxed Imp skills, IT 6, Kalthi Skills, Lagrange skills.... 1m optimal DPS with the highest DPS weapon in the game...

[sage egret]

can do DD/ruined, didnt try CE. it just takes longer

with celestial defiler/trebuchet

[sonic lava]

i seee

[livid sonnet]

you can still do matri too if you try hard enough. do you think the time it takes is fine?

[sage egret]

It will probably get frustrating, and the scaling ceiling will be lower

[wooden apex]

We don't talk about scaling, that doesn't exist from a dev perspective, no one does that or should ever consider changes in game in relation to actual playability and reward

[wooden apex]

Takes about 10x as long as live, maybe more.

These are quick lockouts on live if you aren't scaling them past 4 though. Even on Live it takes longer on Ranger than when I'm engi.

[livid sonnet]

it's an entry t23 zone. you go there with a withering burst (maybe a defiler if you play the market)

[wooden apex]

I mean.. I could probably come here with all T20 gear and still kill it on ranger honestly. It would take forever, but if I was just trying to get my skills I have confidence it would be doable mechanically.

[rose meadow]

If you were just trying to get your skills, there's no need to enter the fleets.

[pastel drum]

Scaling under 4 huh?

[wooden apex]

Yes, it only takes like a couple weeks doing the dailys

[livid sonnet]

the point i was trying to illustrate, and both u and shadow saw it, is that it takes forever

[pastel drum]

Isnt scaled to like 3 a pretty big increase?

[rose meadow]

a couple weeks?

[wooden apex]

Yea.. same scaling that gunners and zerks run...

[rose meadow]

you get two skills on the first day.

[wooden apex]

so a week and a half? It's been a while since I did it

[rose meadow]

then one skill a day after that, for a total of 8 days with 10 core skills.

then you can go do the red rogue trackers quest chain while waiting for the days to pass

as those can also train core skills

[pastel drum]

If you're past 3500 in level

[wooden apex]

Or you get 2, then what, 2-3 more, and go get tractoring free, so it's like 2 days?

[rose meadow]

I mean sure but we don't consider someone being able to solo CE at t22 with little to no t23 skills or gear as a very approachable path for most

nor is that a benchmark we make for our classes to be able to do

[wooden apex]

whyen should they be able to clear it for loot?

[pastel drum]

Show up with some buddies?

If you're a noob and not very strong get some help

[rose meadow]

We don't have a benchmark for when every class should solo it because it's not a solo intended zone. If classes can do that, great

[wooden apex]

10 people play this game Hober... you guys started scaling back squad content with CE and Ruined... idk why you suddenly think player progression needs to be tied to other people.. particularly when the drop rates are so abysmal in this content...

[rose meadow]

So you are saying that we should change every single zone in the game to be a solo zone?

[livid sonnet]

the point of the test (for me) was to show that it takes forever, because no dmg

[rose meadow]

all content, all solo

Not a single thing has any consideration for squads other then over kill

[wooden apex]

Most already are...

[rose meadow]

Just because they can be doesn't mean they were meant to be. Old content gets soloed because we don't do power squishing in old content

the only t23 instance that was purpose built to be solo was delquads, even then it was opened up to two to make it more approachable to a broader class pool

We definitly will make the ability for solo players to get some rare gear with every tech, as well as train their skills

[livid sonnet]

ruined sanctuary can still be soloed too! but it again takes more than twice, again, no dmg

[rose meadow]

but we don't design the game such that solo players can get above rare. If they can, sick but it's not how it's designed

[livid sonnet]

i feel like the important part is getting lost in the sauce lmao

[rose meadow]

yeah sorry I'm speaking over you cojines

I just don't have anything to say about it rn, but I appreciate the data.

[subtle patio]

Everything taking forever isn't fun, we don't all have hours to devote to Internet spaceships every day. KD DGs becoming super tanky did nothing but increase the clear time and essentially the grind, from what was something you could do casually if you had a spare hour.

The shift away from content being doable without wasting hours of time is really putting me off playing, regardless of current iteration of class nerfs, though they contribute to the chore.

[rose meadow]

That sounds more like it's an issue with the content then with any individual class.

[rustic pond]

I think its a problem with the content enhanced with every ranger going for minmaxing the 4s scope shot so max 1 ai per 4 seconds?

[rose meadow]

Not sure what you mean here. Ranger isn't that great at DGing on live, on test, anywhere

[rustic pond]

I mean that the curent most popular playstyle of Ranger is to optimise for ranger quickscope wich is 1 shot every 4s if you take 2 shots to kill ea ai a normal 8 DG room would take slightly over half a minute to clear if started straight away, compounding the problem for Rangers specificly.

[rose meadow]

ok...

Cojines has shown that there are ways to play ranger, even on live, that make it okay at DGing

But they require less obvious build crafting then just maxing out empowered shots

[rustic pond]

Thats true yea, and it probably aint as harsh for players using sutch builds.

[sour hill]

Ranger doesnt excel at it and thats fine, its one of the best single target dps in the game. no one class should be great at everything imo otherwise whats the point of having classes?

instead of dging with a ranger and banging my head on the wall i made a zerk for when i want to dg

[wooden apex]

Was* one of the best single target. It should now be like 5th best.

[subtle patio]

Investment required is also insane, just to get nuked every few weeks is silly

[subtle patio]

Sweeping changes based heavily on feedback from super min-maxed toons is like balancing the game around ole swog. I've actually had a play around with the changes now and it takes the piss really, like what is the actual point in spending countless hours grinding stuff to neuroforge and tweak, only to have it stripped away because you guys don't like how a class is played.

Theres barely any incentive to even do content at least for me, I enjoy playing SS on my downtime but this constant cycle of having to tweak setups based on changes, only for them to be gutted specifically to make content take longer to do is honestly tiring.

I know I like an occasional rage quit like the rest of them, but at this point I do think it's time to just move on permanantly if this never ending cycle is to continue. I play games to relax, games which require you to put in untold hours to get to a stable point where you can enjoy them, should not cause stress every couple months and force you to redo them. If something doesn't change then this impending rage quit will likely be my last.

@serene saddle You promised the community years ago that things would be different, shame on you.