Galaxy claiming and Station Balance

[distant fjord]

A few things i would like to highlight, But i would appreciate input from other players that have built, would like to build, or built in the past. Your perspective is welcome.

1. station power is stagnant, as player gear gets progressively more powerful stations become that much weaker. Stations are easy for even poor examples of combat classes to destroy at T23, the CNC in particular is exceedingly vulnerable and easy to kill. Some of this is projectile speed, range and even damage if they can have weapons. Stations do fine against termites but suffer against players and are not a challenge to overcome despite cost and complexity inherent in their setups.
   2)Ownership timers, this system does allow for some time to contest systems, but more often then not it just keeps you vulnerable for someone to destroy your stuff, not to take the gal for themselves. I do like there being something to allow contest, but there isn't anything barring just flat blocking which blocks/hinders game progression.
   3)Termites are a cost requirement for experienced players but a Go/No-Go filter for newer players, There is Zero information available in game to hint at the difficulties or the expected requirements for a given quality system to survive. This quickly puts people off building if they start getting a list of things they have to do before they can see any benefit from stations. You also get players who start building who do not get this information from experienced players who suddenly get sideswiped by a termite and stop playing due to time cost and complexity involved in building in the first place. It doesn't feel good if your investment in time and wealth seem overshadowed by uncertain returns or wiped away by termites before you even get to a return on your investments.
2. Quality, this seems to split so opportunity exists for players at multiple levels, however only mid/high mostly build. Results in a lot of garbage space.

[proven thicket]

still man, that's so many topics 😅

[inner marten]

Yeah there's at bare minimum 4 different topics in here, and honestly probably 6

[proven thicket]

each of which could easily go into the multiple hundreds of messages sent for

[distant fjord]

I mean..somethings gotta give..a lot of these are interrelated or affect each other.. we have to be able to question SOMETHING or there isnt any way for anybody to give feedback because we get stuck in this loop of "that would be another topic".

There is a reason why i asked if you guys would rather open one.. WE see interrelations and interdependancies differently than you do since you are more in the meat and potatoes.

If discord isnt a good forum for you guys to receive feedback, come up with a better solution.

[inner marten]

Its a good forum, all these things are too complicated to try to discuss all at once. We need to address 1 thing at a time. Why not just start with the fact that bases are too weak versus players?

And explain your observations, why you feel that way and give an example of something that's frustrating. If you'd rather not do that, its fine.

[distant fjord]

This is part of why this feedback is frustrating.. How to explain the obvious to players who obviously play, who have interacted with these systems and still need it spelled out? who is more insulted here? you? or me for being asked that? You were involved in several sieges in the last 24 hours hober.

This is partly WHY nobody gives feedback or feel its a waste of time. I already gave reasons above, if you cant extrapolate on that after having been instrumental in some of the recent class changes and aware of what a player can do with setups how do i make that more clear without sounding either insulting or feel like my time is being wasted? stations havent changed a whole lot so its not like you missed out on an update.

player strength is entirely disproportionate to station strength. its not been balanced for effectively 20 years and people just keep shifting decimal points to cope.

[hybrid canyon]

we all know a barely geared ranger can destroy a cnc in a min and i dont even participate

[proven thicket]

These feedback channels arent just for hober to read. We quote them in discussions. It helps hober make arguements for change of theres others saying the same thing he does.

Actually, alot of the time a devs word is worth less then players supporting the devs claim

[distant fjord]

I got that. But there is an issue with devs ignoring problems to make the new shiny stuff. You guys dont LIKE cleaning up messes and its completely understandable. Nobody wants to do that, and everyone feels better when they can point at something new and say "see? i did that. Aint it awesome?".

The issue is that bias DOES exist for the devs and its explicitly clear in just about any feedback on any of the old systems. we get the run around about splitting topics, or get word salad back that makes us feel like either the devs are being wilfully ignorant or not taking any of our feedback seriously about it. Hober's response in the larger topic about a total revamp being out of the question is a perfect example of the sorts of things we expect. It doesn't matter that we have issues or that players suffer, our topics don't publicly hold any weight at all for consideration even if you could talk to any number of devs and they will agree with you in some part.

[inner marten]

I don't think they heard you. We literally value feedback from players, qouted verbatim from players, more than we value each others feedback. Especially when a bunch of them give it.

We tend to give Dev's perspectives and ideas about how to address the feedback/what solutions should be followed a huge amount of value but not feedback.

Also, I think you've been in enough meetings to know that most of us on the dev team would prefer to clean up everything in the game and enk has to continously drive us towards making new content and prioritizing content creation over going back and touching everything all the time.

[distant fjord]

Then that needs to be a discussion about priority and time. Nothing on the agenda speaks to fixing any of the old issues. its all new issues or new content.

[inner marten]

Also, I said a total change to stats and how they work is something that's just not going to happen. The dev team is almost never willing to completely throw away how stuff works stat wise, and that was specifically about PvP.

Roh and I spent a LONG time really lobbying for us to make some change to Critical Hit Chance. It literally took months of us constantly bringing it up in meetings and pushing on it for the rest of the devs to agree that we could make Critical Hit Resistances address it.

[inner marten]

Have you looked at the meeting agenda?

[distant fjord]

yes i have Hober. its very clearly not addressing any of the long term issues i posted. short and medium term is ALL new content or class tweaks to balance them against eachother or against specific content and new content. Long term is even all future content or ideas.

[torpid oar]

I mean, I'll come out and say it

it's much too easy for strong players to bully weaker players out of wildspace altogether

[proven thicket]

At reset or over the course of the whole uni?

[torpid oar]

that's the crux of the issue really, isn't it?

[torpid oar]

over the course of the uni if they really wanted to

[proven thicket]

Theyd have to be watchful of them for any 2 hour span at any point

[distant fjord]

whats your time worth? what is the effort you put into basing and gear worth? is it worth the sub you pay to deal with it? there are ways and means to get stations but is that kind of harrassment something that should be fostered or intended? or possible?

in a world of games with instant gratification the building system is NOT one of those.. its something you put significant time and effort into for long term reward.

[proven thicket]

If i was in your position id, at random times, drop cncs and feed it and leave and hope it pops off.

[torpid oar]

we had 1 individual warping in and out of a safe gal spamming GE bombard blossoms at everyone purely for the point of harassing a claim, even though there was no plan to actually take the gal themselves. they did that for more or less an hour and a half.

time is something some players have in abundance.

[proven thicket]

Right at the start of the uni when activity is at the highest.

[drowsy tulip]

Right when people want to claim things.

[proven thicket]

With the way its set up, uni reset is by far the riskiest time to claim.

[distant fjord]

I am crafty, i made it work. Doesnt mean i feel like i want to spend 10-12 hours fighting and getting my ass kicked. that isnt rewarding for me.

[inner marten]

So something to make mention here is that there were players who were hunted down universe after universe and who were not allowed to build during resets, who were even being hunted post reset, and when they brought these concerns up to us we asked them to keep trying and to alternate how they claimed galaxies. It is known that if you try to get galaxies when things are the most active and likely to be contested you are liable to get bulldozed.

The theory is that if you do NOT want to deal with the rough and tumble violence during the reset and reveals, that you wait until it cools down and then drop your stuff and see if you can snag it before someone comes along to blow it up.

You do not need to fight for 10-12 hours unless you are absolutely sure that you want a very specific galaxy that has cropped up and you are unwilling to accept anything less.

Also, if people are flying around hunting for others it just makes the most sense not to even drop kits

[distant fjord]

then you have fear of loosing out, you have reduced reward over time because you just dont GET more by taking more time to do it and you still have to spend endless hours building and tweaking galaxies.. There are only so many ways to go from level to level so its not difficult to hunt people.

[torpid oar]

I think part of the problem with this is that there is such a gulf in power between midlevel T23 and endgame T23 - bigger even than the gulf between entire tech levels below it

[inner marten]

Huh?

[torpid oar]

to the point that a small handful of endgame players can steamroll most of a team of midlevel players without much effort

[inner marten]

Most of the time a small handful of people can steamroll most of a team because those handful of people are highly organized and using PvP setups.

[proven thicket]

Mods and skills play a bigger role then quality of gear, someone with all high quality gear would get smakced by a well modded and well geared t21 player

[inner marten]

I think what we really should be doing as content designers is making more PvE content that pushes people to build like a PvPer does.

And someone with well modded and skilled characters that wasn't PvP geared would get knocked around by some dude with none of those skills if they used gear and setups appropriate for PvP

[hybrid canyon]

personally dislike that solution since i dont want to build like a pvper

[torpid oar]

perhaps so, the question is whether the potential toxicity that introduces is worth it for the longterm health of the game

[distant fjord]

PVP gear and ships are not what you use to build with or scout with in most instances unless you are a SD main. Are you saying that the only people who should be allowed to build are people who pvp and have large groups of people to fight with them?

[torpid oar]

meant to quote your message before that

[inner marten]

If you are showing up to an area where PvP can happen, and people are going to fight you, you should be augged and geared in a way that will give you the most success in PvP.

Even if you're not using the highest quality stuff, building with stat spreads that increase your success in PvP is critical.

[torpid oar]

building in wildspace is critical to achieving that though

[distant fjord]

and how do i get to my base building gear mr fancy pants? when AI stations are random as hell and you dont give me space on pvp ships for base gear?

[hybrid canyon]

critical for what?

[torpid oar]

you need to build in wildspace to progress, but you can't build in wildspace because you aren't progressed enough

[inner marten]

Critical for beating other people so you can get the galaxy you want

[torpid oar]

it's a catch 22 situation

[inner marten]

If your argument here is that you shouldn't have to build for PvP to build in Wildspace, I agree. You shouldn't and don't have to build for PvP if you are not trying to snag a galaxy during times when others who choose violence are hunting for it.

Goldstar I think we both know that you aren't expected to build for PvP in an Industrial Freighter

This, btw, is why the topics need to be separated+.

[hybrid canyon]

i think the main argument was that people cant compete because bases dont compare to player power, unless i misunderstood

[inner marten]

When we're talking about the gulf between the mid level and end level t23, the biggest part of the gulf is how players are geraed.

[inner marten]

There was no main argument, the argument I was responding to was about PvP between players who were midlevel vs end level at t23

There's like 6 different points of feedback in this channel atm

[torpid oar]

they're all interconnected though, cojines' point is also right

[distant fjord]

How do you properly defend yourself when a ranger or a zerk can solo your owner kit and any perma drone you can bring over unit to uni while your building? that isnt pvp. How do i ensure i claim a gal i want ? do i have to have tons of team members on station all the time to prevent people from taking things?

[inner marten]

When it comes to things like C&C kits getting waxed quickly, Roh and I already agreed like weeks ago that they were just way too weak

[torpid oar]

bases can't compete with players in terms of power, which makes it harder for people who - for example, are more into base-building than pvp - to get a footing by building defense kits

[inner marten]

If you want to claim a gal you want, no matter what and against all foes, you need other players to help you who are willing and able to gear up for PvP. If you just want to claim a gal you can use, the requirements drop massively.

Its totally true that bases cannot fend off players by themselves. It's something we've been struggling with in the dev team for a long time.

[distant fjord]

its almost like players have given this feedback.. countless times..

[inner marten]

If we make them completely able to fend off players then we're basically just saying the first person to drop bases wins and they get the gal without any issue.

At that point why even let people fight over it

[hybrid canyon]

i think if you're first u should have at least a massive advantage (not guaranteed), just an opinion 🤷

[distant fjord]

thats my issue.. I havent seen ANYBODY contest a gal personally since the uni after this system started. Any time i had people destroy or kill my stuff or a team members stuff it was JUST to kill it. They did nothing to claim the system

[torpid oar]

I don't really agree there. to progress you need to build a prod. to build a prod you need a significant amount of resources and a wide variety of them to boot. to get those resources you need to claim usually multiple gals to fuel it.

there's a reason nobody builds their prods in anything but exotic gals

which again comes down to the main point of galaxy claiming. if you want to progress to be able to stand on an even footing with the endgame players who are ganking you, you need to claim multiple wildspace gals.

preferably close together for logistics purposes

[frank light]

I build prods in greens/blues all the time

[distant fjord]

its technically cheaper to build in blues/greens but you still need to claim a couple. Exotics are just a slightly more dense fruitcake. its got that extra nutty flavor.

[torpid oar]

sorry, I should have specified I'm talking about team prods rather than personal ones

[frank light]

So was I...

[distant fjord]

I think Tobal does his team prod in them

[frank light]

Yup, almost always in a blue, this uni we're doing it in a green 😮

That being said it will be supported by 3 exos + 2 rares minimum

[torpid oar]

yeah, so either way you still need the resources to support it

[distant fjord]

it doesn't invalidate the argument though. We had people taking blues and greens who got stuffed, its not really about the fight over the quality gals. if people want to destroy your stuff the timer just makes it assured its going to happen during that point of time where you are basically naked to the wind.

[torpid oar]

there's no reason you can't build prods in lower quality gals, it's just easier logistics to have it in an exotic galaxy that you're extracting from. either way, the resources (and therefore the claims) are still needed to do it and progress in the game.

[distant fjord]

if you fight over a green or white gal and loose the CNC a few times in the fighting that isnt a rewarding task if you do manage to beat them off and own it. you are just relieved its over and you can possibly do something to advance yourself later now that you have resources.

[proven thicket]

I dont agree. A uni of ownership can be worth way more then what you stated.

[hybrid canyon]

something like if you place a cnc you can also place 5-10 unattached bases before owning can allow some defenses. not ideal but something like that

[frank light]

not being able to drop unattached kits until you own is a dumb mechanic

[torpid oar]

yeah, the other big problem is stations have crap range compared to players, so defense kits are easy to avoid

[proven thicket]

And even then, why fight over a green or a blue? Wait until its not such a hot time and your chance of being contested fall like a rock

[distant fjord]

I dont mean just materially. I have a lot of team members who check out and do not want any part of building because of everything they have to go through for it. not just the shitty mechanics but dealing with getting beat up or having to lay again to try again. Thats why i do a team prod, i never used to because i could just build my own things and do whatever.

[hybrid canyon]

yeah but makes it harder 😅

[distant fjord]

its not jsut during resets Roh.. this isnt about CONTESTING..its about people just wiping you out because they can..

[inner marten]

Until we start getting people setting up "alliances" and dropping multiple C&C kits to support their "allies" with extra bases

[frank light]

I kinda agree with this point, we often expand at quiet times and haven't really had an issue establishing a solid core group of ggals

[frank light]

I never said I agreed with the cnc kit being a req to place unatached kits. I'm well versed in the alt team abuse that would cause rise to

[inner marten]

Still

[proven thicket]

Id have to be only allowed by the first team there

[torpid oar]

eh, not really. planets move really slow and base kits have really low range, so either mobile or long-ranged classes can avoid them easily

[proven thicket]

So then that is the actual issue, not that getting gals is a problem, because there are plenty of ways to get a gal and progress. Just that someone can shoot you in the process.

[torpid oar]

I mean I was harassing a gal myself yesterday with stationary drones, and it was only until the opponents brought in tractor ships to pull me into their defense kits that I was even in any danger

[distant fjord]

thats what ive been trying to say.. players are so super powerful compared to stations and what little you left to us for the defence that you CANNOT defend a kit of someone or multiple someones want it dead.

[frank light]

Drones OP you read it here, nerf em. Not productive. Bases need a bit more ooompf though, their range is diabolical

[torpid oar]

no comment

[hybrid canyon]

if you're alt team abusing with multiple c&c kits and bases, you're spending a significant amount of time/resources for barely any gains given the power you already have. a team of newbies benefit way harder from being able to place defense kits. again i know it's not the best solution but just because somebody can abuse the system, doesnt mean the system is worth abusing

[proven thicket]

Theres always gonna be a number of kits or players someones gonne be able to bring to dislodge.

Otherwise theres no game. Its just first come first sevrer

And any pvp serves no purpose

[distant fjord]

PVP doesnt serve a purpose.. or doesnt appear to.

nobody is contesting the galaxies to take it for themselves

[proven thicket]

That does indeed happen.

And if they dont, its not like the cnc and the ics are very expensive

[distant fjord]

thats pretty much all ive seen. I had ONE universe, second uni after the new system when we had a contest with adamantized souls over a gal. I have never seen a gal contested since or taken after things were destroyed. I have ONLY witnessed the pvp pvb for the sake of pvp pvb.

[distant fjord]

its not the material worth. what is your time worth to you?

[torpid oar]

it does happen, but I think it's more common to pvp for the sake of pvp

[proven thicket]

If i cared about my time for pvp, and i knew i wasnt going to win, id pack it up the moment people showed up and tried again later, spent my time doing other things.

[frank light]

and when it does happen it tends to be over special gals and not generic stuff.

[inner marten]

I saw this happen like 5 times last night

[distant fjord]

so now the requirement to build is that all players need to be on large teams that can do that? do you see where the problem with this is?

[inner marten]

And my boy heavy got chin checked earlier today and had a gal snatched from him

[torpid oar]

and when pvp contesting works, it really works - our battle over XYZ was incredible fun and hard-fought on both sides. when it's fun it's really fun, but when it's harassment rather than actual contesting, it's depressing and frustrating

[distant fjord]

you have two fairly equitable teams in SRX and Traders in that scenario. not everyone can be on SRX and Traders. for one Torn would likely be upset at my anime consumption.

[frank light]

That's where the divide happens imo, you have teams who can contest/put up a fight and those who can't, either due to manpower/lacking the means. The latter tends to fall victim to the bully mentality because other than a few special circumstances the former are too much effort.

[torpid oar]

can confirm, I am frequently bullied by tornado

[distant fjord]

This.

[sour flame]

Skill issue

[distant fjord]

yo mama's a skill issue.

[inner marten]

sounds like we need more teams at Aidelon's level to attack them

Oh wait

Whenever someone does something like that people have a tendency to call in the world police

[sour flame]

Didn't Aidelon join SRX?

[inner marten]

And turn it into a big dog vs big dog fight

[frank light]

They are called the space police actually, get it right plz

[inner marten]

Sorry

[distant fjord]

so now we have the bias from the dev who plays on the team that loves to harrass and kill random players just because?

[inner marten]

Yes, I am biased.

But you're right that it sucks for a small team to only be attacked by people they dont feel like they can beat

Which is why it sounds like we need more smaller teams to get froggy towards each other

And for bigger teams to be preoccupied by their own fights

In the old days this happened all the time

[frank light]

Back in my day we had level protection

[inner marten]

I remember the days of pants and Imp fighting

level protection meant nothing and you know it Tobal

[frank light]

lol

shh

[torpid oar]

back in the day we had more players to actually fill teams 😂

[inner marten]

I remember your low level Zerker in the Pax Astro

With excomms

Name started with a B I think

[frank light]

Level 90 pax days were good times, but that's irrelevant

[distant fjord]

back when gear was mostly equitable and there wasnt a massive difference between pvp and pvp setups and T23 and end game minmaxed T23? yes..that was a lot more level ground.

[frank light]

Kannon Stu

[inner marten]

ah

yeah, Kannon

I was thinking of Bannon for some reason

[inner marten]

sir

Were we playing the same game?

The gulf was much more massive back then

[sour flame]

bases need serious look........

[inner marten]

Aug tweaking was insane, if someone had the right ship or weapon there was almost nothing you could do

If you died people farmed gear glue off of you, and if you forgot it or died too much you lost your weapons

Augs were multiplicative so having a bunch of good augs made you amazingly strong

[torpid oar]

aug tweaking was the big divide I think back then, yeah - simply because there was a massive gap between the haves and the have-nots

[inner marten]

People were dying to Platties back then

It wasn't just haves and have nots dude

There were no instances

There were whole cartels and stuff

People would build outside of uber zones

and they could make their bases aggro

[torpid oar]

I know lmao

[inner marten]

You wanna talk about content denial

[frank light]

I feel targetted right now

[inner marten]

That time was the dark ages for content denial

SS is literally carebear right now

All Jey does is rage about how carebear SS is nowadays dev chats lol

[distant fjord]

in a pure pvp situation it was a LOT more simple. if you had a titantorp+ and a decent setup everyone was basically fighting based on skill.

[torpid oar]

I don't think there's anything wrong with that

[inner marten]

I'm saying trying to make the argument that things were more equitable or balanced in the past is flat out not true

In fact, before healing revamp the power gulf was even worse. Because passive mod stacking was insane.

[frank light]

If anything the balance was the opposite in the past. I would kill people and take their gear and blow it up to kill them again. Setting them back and i'd continue to snowball

[inner marten]

And Engineer was legit busted broken before we changed drone ops. 8k range, 300-400k DPS with Samgrahaka Akramavars, 80-90% resists.

[distant fjord]

I mean, why would we EVER strive for an environment that promoted new players and equitable gameplay right? Way too carebare as long as you are on the wrong team, with the wrong people who dont like that you like to kill people over and over and over or stop or hinder their progress.

[torpid oar]

I think peoples' attitudes have shifted a lot since back then. most of us were kids and we had all the time in the world, now we're all grown-ups with families and commitments and limited time to put into the game

[frank light]

200% Damage OL Dastardly was the biz

[distant fjord]

we dont need new players. Hober is gonna pay all the costs himselves when this old crusty lot eventually die off or leave.

[inner marten]

My point is that compared to what it used to be SS is carebear. We are moving towards the type of game ya'll want.

I have even become more carebear since my time on Traders, funny enough.

Even these bloodthirsty ghouls have been asking for carebear changes lmao

[distant fjord]

oh yes, GG and those days were BAD. but the difference in gear was not as huge. you can have the same setup bit different augmods due to NF and be completely outclassed.

[torpid oar]

a different time, back when gg meant something other than "good game" 😂

[frank light]

Meant you'd need to crack out the tractor and chase a spirit for another go

[torpid oar]

speaking from experience there? 😄

[hybrid canyon]

the systems were more unbalanced in the past but i dont think gear difference was as massive as having access to nfed matri gear or not

[inner marten]

Goldstar the difference in gear was massive

[distant fjord]

I am honestly not sure why i try. It doesnt matter when you have biased devs or admins who dont play anymore who dont listen. I am not trying to take fun away from your cretins, I am TRYING to fix the huge imbalance in players that is completely screwing this game over. We need new players and ive seen more than enough new players since i came back in 2018 just leave because they felt everything was against them and their time wasnt worth dealing with our systems.

[inner marten]

I know this because I have access to the balance tools now and from then

[hybrid canyon]

other than mod stacking ofc

[inner marten]

I know for a fact the difference in gear was massive, because a lot of gear was manually created

[torpid oar]

speaking of balance tools, remind me to make a feedback thread about GE bombard later

[inner marten]

It just had stats a dev thought were good enough, and some devs made things stronger because they thought it should be stronger cause it was from a harder content zone

The game was not more balanced, we as players were just worse at math

And didn't understand how everything worked

[torpid oar]

jux sniping is something that definitely would not fit in today's SS

[hybrid canyon]

anyone could jux tho

[drowsy tulip]

can we remove that from the game please and thank you

[distant fjord]

That may be, but you have better tools now. Start addressing the problems that are stopping NEW players from using these systems. Every single time a topic comes up that affects newer players or smaller teams its bombarded by this bombastic bullcrud about "skill issue" "get better" "try again later" when you could literally look at the concerns, bring them up and focus on it from the point of a newer player instead of the "grizzled old veteran" you claim to be.

Not everything needs to be around pvp and id argue that the way the system is now is not helpful in encouraging people to even play past mid game. How many fewer subs did we have this last year than the one before? how long before that list of future content in the dev meetings becomes irrelevant because the old players have dwindled away and made it meaningless? These things need to be looked at from a marketing perspective as much as anything else. How do you sell this to new players? how do you get people to stay past T20? How do they advance if these systems and these issues make it such a struggle for smaller teams or players?

Hell, our steam intro video is the biggest crock ever. It shows players building and owning stations and running trade routes and that is not even something they can do in wildspace and even if they try they run into this crap time and time again where the biggest team always runs over them or they have to deal with funky UI or termites that have no explanation or warning and any time they have an idea or a question or concern its shut down, shut out and ignored by the dev team who has seen it for literally years and in some cases decades. Experianced players are guilty of this too, we shouldn't have to hand hold every new player that joins but we should be focused on collectively fostering an environment that welcomes new players and our current systems dont do that.

[hybrid canyon]

i'll try a different framing to add to that. do you think if newish players could build more safely in ws, the game population would go up or down in the short/long term? i think both would go up

[forest willow]

Go play maple story if u don't like pvp

[distant fjord]

more of that wonderful attitude we get from players and devs alike. Absolutely endearing and encouraging, just what players want to see when they join a game.

[forest willow]

Idk if it makes you made you could try and stop them

[inner marten]

You are 100% right that there needs to be a better onramp/explanation for Termites

The current system is built on layers and layers of "figure it out bro"

[ashen canopy]

This game is so fed there's 200 posts about things that could be worked on and the general dev response is f you. Why do we even play

[ashen canopy]

Here's one

[inner marten]

How is that an f you?

[distant fjord]

its not just "figure it out bro" but the pvp elements are so out of whack the way players and bases interact in game that it IS too easy to displace people.

[inner marten]

The context was that Goldstar said that Ada souls attacking them was actually fun, because they were fighting over the gal. Its not fun when a big team like Traders/EmF/SrX attack.

When you just qoute stuff out of context then I guess you can say its me saying F you

[distant fjord]

yes, but the way you said it was caustic, abrasive and sarcastic. It came off far more insulting than your summary. which is probably not what you meant, but how it read.

[inner marten]

Whaaaaat?

[distant fjord]

what other reason would he have to come to that assumption?

[inner marten]

We were all talking about whether or not people fight over gals to take them, you said it wasn't fun when people came in to pvp/pvb for the sake of pvp/pvb. You pointed out how Ada Souls contested over a gal. I said the following:

My point in saying that is that historically teams had fought each other

[distant fjord]

yeah, and the battle with ada souls was two roughly equal teams. Since devs have categorically shot down any and all discussion about team limits or changes to the way player characters are counted or a part of teams the only thing i see in that whole line of thought is that you thought it would be fun to make fun of smaller teams that cant fight off the larger more prepared teams so they do what you always suggest..Every single time.. "teams should band together to do X so Y gets their butt kicked" and that is somehow poor, inadvisable or even embarrassing to do.

[ashen canopy]

I don't see how you can read this tread otherwise. @inner marten if you really don't see it maybe grab a friend that isn't involved with this at all and have them read it, this reads like a big f you in general

[broken marsh]

Let's keep emotions in check. Assuming intent creates problems. You can ask what they mean by what they're saying but saying they intend a f you is out of pocket. If you can't reply because you're emotions are high, take a break. Come back when you're good. Your mental health and state is the priority here.

[frank light]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-snowflake-snowflake-millennials-baby-gif-15563524

[broken marsh]

Tobal XD

[frank light]

I'm not very good at reading the room, i'll time myself out.

[distant fjord]

It doesnt matter really. The only dev to ask questions was Roh. The rest of the time was spent defending the reasons things are bad and excusing it from the point of view of an end game player on a huge team with vast resources in manpower or in game resources. Its the same song and dance. Hober is probably sick of these topics as much as i am because they keep coming up because they are never fully addressed.

Text is probably the worst forum to converse with to get ideas and thoughts across. but its darn frustrating.

[broken marsh]

We just try to give context. So we can all be on the same page on how to find a way forward.

We go through this same conversations internally but I get not everyone wants to take part in a design convo

[proven thicket]

This is exactly it. We cant make any big swings in thos thread alone, and i DMed you exactly that when you first posted this goldstar

[distant fjord]

bully! there's context. change your viewpoint and look at the issues brought up, this isnt the first, or even the 50th time these have been brought up. It isnt just what is fair or fun for people at any one point in the game but how to market this hot load of steaming extrusion to other people. If you described the process in detail to someone who has never played would anyone want any part of it?

[proven thicket]

But we were basically threated to respond

[distant fjord]

you asked for a new topics to talk about it.. I didnt say out of the blue "lets make 30 extra topics!"

I am sorry you felt threatened to respond, that isnt what i had in mind when i posted this. But i dont feel like these go anywhere any time someone makes a topic. We get argued into the ground about why we are wrong and we should just not play that day and find some other time in our limited free time to play.

[ashen canopy]

These have been issues for years how is it threatening you to fix it today. It just seems like every discussion ends with we're wrong your right.

[frank light]

They never actually go anywhere, 9/10 times they are derailed

[proven thicket]

It wasnt you but s91

[broken marsh]

I think this is all falling on deaf ears. Nothing is going to change it seems, I was hoping for some form of response by now but I guess not. I'll give them a little more time before I bounce, defiantly not giving them more money right now

[ashen canopy]

We'll its been years with no improvement am I wrong?

[broken marsh]

You're wrong.

[inner marten]

Yeah that's just not true

[ashen canopy]

okay I'll move on I guess

[inner marten]

It takes a while to make things change, and we have to be careful not to make them worse.

[distant fjord]

and offline i advised him to be patient and just wait. that you guys needed to talk amongst yourselves before you came out about stuff. But the sentiment isnt entirely wrong. topics about station building, claiming, ownership come up every uni and very seldom does the playerbase see anything or hear about anything discussed.

[broken marsh]

If you're expecting huge mountains of movement. You're going to end up disappointmented. We always are iterative because so much is on the line. We constantly are doing tweaks and trying but there's like a dozen of us.

[proven thicket]

Like, making cheap high range bases could easily make it worse for example

[inner marten]

What if the big teams just used those to bully you harder... for example.

[proven thicket]

Or allowing no holds bar unattached kits

[broken marsh]

Literally was worse with bvb

[frank light]

https://tenor.com/view/jirkasino-in-want-solutions-i-need-solutions-solutions-i-dont-want-problems-gif-6416546067782401521

[distant fjord]

all good questions, but absolutely NONE of it happened during the conversation.

[inner marten]

Because we've thought about this and had this conversation like 5+ times

[ashen canopy]

I was kinda thinking someone would atleast post hey we're looking into it not an answer but 12+hours latter there was nothing

[inner marten]

In fact, I specifically remember saying these things to you in universes past.

[inner marten]

Brother, its the weekend.

[distant fjord]

because its come up again and again with no change? or no forseeable progress?

because its never on the agenda?

[hybrid canyon]

is a big team going to spend a bunch of range augs to bully a small team? yeah, if they want to they can, it's still a better system than not costing them anything

[inner marten]

Yes, so why do I have to say the same thing to you 5+ times Goldstar?

If we both know what I'm going to say, doesn't that piss you off?

Hearing the same thing 5x times from me?

[ashen canopy]

a quick hey we can talk about this monday would have worked

[inner marten]

We've really pulled back on our mingling in feedback channels because its just not helpful when we chime in and can't offer anything other than our thoughts.

So if we don't respond to something its usually because we don't have anything to say that isn't just a "Yeah we agree" or "No we don't agree"

[distant fjord]

maybe? Does that make my concerns any less valid? Am i wrong that any of those things affect player retention?

[proven thicket]

I think the types of responses we got in this channel actually more so show why we have pulled back our engagement in them

[inner marten]

I was being nice Roh

[frank light]

https://tenor.com/view/it-sounds-like-you-think-youre-the-victim-here-colin-jost-saturday-night-live-you-think-youre-the-victim-you-victimise-yourself-gif-21183257

[hybrid canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/tried-nothing-flanders-out-of-gif-9662944

i'm joking, sorry

[frank light]

I'm less likely to get muted if others participate, so you are excused

[proven thicket]

I aint a mod i cant mute anyone if i wanted

[broken marsh]

Yeah devs aren't mods for record

[frank light]

Excellent

https://tenor.com/view/remove-gloves-not-funny-mad-angry-pissed-off-gif-15998344

[broken marsh]

Also Jeff picture pfp

[frank light]

idk what you mean its just a mission giver from a game i love stop derailing

[broken marsh]

You are if anything lightening the tone

So thanks Tobal.

[proven thicket]

Also this was exactly why when i first saw what you said, i DMed you because i knew exactly how this conversation was going to go when devs go involved in text.

We dont have the power to address your prime concerns here, and trying to pick things apart will only increase angst

[distant fjord]

Then you cant do any feedback in a public forum and it should probably move to a different venue. I will note that of the devs who responded you were the only one to ask questions rather than just attack me and try to make it about "getting gud" or "learn to pvp".

But i have to ask, why would anyone want to go through this to submit feedback? As a player i brought these up because its a long standing issue and the only things i've seen have been more and more toxic player things being done and condoned by devs.

The best and most fun pvp i've had in decades was this last Anatolia run, it was exhausting and a bit tedious but that kind of optional pvp that doesn't explicitly affect game progress is the kind of stuff we need more than the rest of it any day. It fostered teamwork, collaboration between multiple teams and at the end of the day if you died or lost it wasnt a big deal.

[proven thicket]

Theres definitely things that work well as feedback topics

Their not all made equally

[distant fjord]

I am definitely not the most eloquent writer of all time.. but there isn't another venue and you asked me to split it off into separate topics while also asking me to work with you in a DM. If you dont want a public topic, say so. I am a guy, i cant read minds..if you give me conflicting messages its going to likely get the wrong thing because i think im helping.

[proven thicket]

I only started responding here because of the afformentioned threats. We tried to do what we could to set you guys up to respond in the way that is most helpful, but as expected we didn't really get anywhere but yell at eachother.

[distant fjord]

Eh, theres still space for collaboration, but not today. I am tired and frustrated and those combinations don't lend themselves to problem solving. There are things we agree on, and things we agree to disagree on. We may not agree on a wide range of things but we can find bits of consensus that work towards our mutual goals.

[frank light]

https://tenor.com/view/animated-cartoon-nothing-willhapp-consequences-gif-19785355

[distant fjord]

I like quoting Sarah Connor. "the future is not set"

[proven thicket]

as I've said a few times, literally nothing will happen until these conversations are brought to the dev meetings

[distant fjord]

it doesnt mean this conversation wont bear fruit of some sort

[proven thicket]

These are like, fundamantle aspects of the game

it's not like me just changing a tooltip or a boss mechanic

[distant fjord]

yup, its big and not easy with so many things it affects.. still a conversation worth having even if it is complicated.

[frank light]

There you go, I got you both to agree on something. Lets call it a win and pick this back up later.

[distant fjord]

it is a win, we can work on the rest later, after i get a nap. maybe finish the exhaustive setup of this gal lol.

[proven thicket]

YOU OWN A GAL!?

lmao sry couldnt resist

[distant fjord]

i thought i said that somewhere further up. lol

[frank light]

Very unhelpful comment.

[proven thicket]

We just discussed for hours why owning gal isnt possible :p so ya know

[distant fjord]

I only speak 3 languages, English, sarcasm, and drunk sailor.

[flint shard]

What if every team could have its own instanced white/green/blue gal down in Celestial Gardens? Basing is fundamental to progression so technically if you don't guarantee it, someone could not progress. I was theorizing... imagine doing all of t23 in green Empyreal ships and only dropped gear, lol

That has an avenue to exploit if you mass spam teams, so it'd need an entry bar.

[forest willow]

Seems wild to me joining a game that has always had pvp and trying to change the game to suit your own needs

[proven thicket]

Tbh the direction were going is just moving away from so many things needing builds

Rare and below for all techs drops built, alternatives to getting gear of higher quality without bases

[forest willow]

Maybe I'll start playing club penguin and demand a open area for pvp

[distant fjord]

seems wild to have a god prosthelytising when he should be off announcing he is a god to his worthy followers.

[flint shard]

I'm OK with that. Builds and basing is fun because it provides a challenge of accomplishing the logistics.

But it's weird to me that... I first have to get through content which is a difficulty barrier, and then I have to build BPs with a ton of preceding builds...

[frank light]

You don't really have to do that though, there is a wonderful player driven economy in place.

[proven thicket]

Something weve discussed is making a tag for blueprints that allows them to be created in ship

[flint shard]

Don't get me wrong I like the concept of building. Industrialization/automation fantasy is a part of this game and I actually really like it. It's just, we might need to pull back on the necessity of builds.

Especially cancerous ones q.q

[distant fjord]

they have fixed some of the blueprints, though i still say they should nuke the old ones from orbit and simplify the equation instead of leaving them in.

[flint shard]

True, but in my opinion, sandbox games should be easy to gear but difficult to minmax. Especially since we have PVP, getting your first ship or item copy should be achievable within your own self or team's means.

After that, if you want more, you take from other players that are inserting items into the game.

...and ofc, that's barring intentionally unique/optional upgrades, etc

The Kalthi gear in PStronghold I think is a fair example of stuff that should be and is easily obtainable.

The BPs give you a reason to fight the content and engage with what the devs have to offer in terms of gameplay (flying your ship and shooting stuff in combat, the core gameplay loop of SS).

[frank light]

Fair enough

[hybrid canyon]

technically speaking you can do everything solo. doesnt mean it's a reasonable ask from the game

[flint shard]

SHH

COJI

xD

[proven thicket]

I did discuss with the team some of these topics on yesterdays meeting. I think looking at the relationship between stations, players and wild space is a logical path we see here. The idea that if a team gets to a galaxy first, puts some kits down and augs them, it is going to be very difficult to dislodge them without standing up their own kits on a different sun, Setting up their CnC, and putting out booster drones. Then the battle would come down to who can supply more ICs and who can kill the most booster drones. This may also mean that booster drones themselves need a pass on their tankiness, as well as the CnC kit and other stations. It's still a vague idea right now that we don't have a strong plan for completing, but it was discussed.

We did not discuss overall player power or the discrepancies there. Just player station vs. player ship balance

general idea being: any player with the resources to setup and put down defense its, the opposition must put in similar costs to dislodge. A player ship squad should not alone be enough in most cases. Of course it may not be binary, we've seen PvB forces take down some pretty crazy bases over the years, but generally that is the idea.

[forest willow]

So any player that can slap some crap together should be able to stand up the force of a whole team with a few kits lol oook

[oblique steppe]

That’s an extremely unfun way or idea of pvp/bvb.

[forest willow]

Whos this even for what team wasn't able to snag galaxies 😆 their knee jerk responding again to a handful of people complaining about day of reset pvp

[proven thicket]

Maybe it wasnt clear, but my last comment was that it will not be a binary, bases wont be invincible.

[torpid oar]

I mean... yes? if you drop some geared and auged defense kits, it should take a lil more than sending in a couple of rangers to get rid of them lol

also not being able to drop unattached kits before ownership needs to go

[proven thicket]

We currently have no plan or concept that include unattached kits beyond the cnc and dnd

[forest willow]

Why

[proven thicket]

Cant find a way to make them work.

[torpid oar]

in what way?

[forest willow]

That's a wild response just say you guys don't want to

[proven thicket]

Alright

[torpid oar]

I'm not sure what there is to make work? we already established bases are way underpowered compared to players, so what's the logic behind not being able to drop unattached ones before ownership?

[proven thicket]

It would have to be some system where only the very first team is allowed to place unattached kits or you get into an alt team scenarios to bypass the kit limit

Sobs are the kit limit that are player team ignostic.

And are what we will continue to use

[forest willow]

"We want the activity pvp brings but don't actually care to foster a competitive pvp community and any movement towards competitive pvp will be stomped out if we receive any push back"

[torpid oar]

can't there just be a per-team kit limit like there is for drones until the gal is owned?

[proven thicket]

You use alt teams to bypass that kit limit

[forest willow]

Why would an alt team be able to bypass galaxy wide kit limit

[proven thicket]

Or to take up all of the slots so no offensive team can have slots

[proven thicket]

Team wide kit limit, not gal wide

[forest willow]

Sounds like exploiting

[torpid oar]

I hate to agree with bigmoney, but yeah

[proven thicket]

No guys, no. We arent going to police alt teams.

[forest willow]

Just make a galaxy wide limit of 20 unattached kits and team wide per galaxy 10 unattached kits let the rest fall where it does

[proven thicket]

You use two teams to take all 20 and now you are guarnteed to get the gal

[forest willow]

Why do u care

U don't even want pvp to begin with

The players will figure it out

[torpid oar]

you can do the same with attached kits anyway, because there's always a limited number of planet slots so you can deny an enemy team laying kits to defend their cnc by just filling up all the planets

[forest willow]

They want to sacrifice 20 kits for nothing let em

[proven thicket]

I mean sure but they arent all stacked in one place

[torpid oar]

don't even need alt teams for that one

[proven thicket]

Orbits have vulnerabilities unlike a pile

[torpid oar]

yeah, that's because bases have gimped range these days

[proven thicket]

Sounds good great discussion

[torpid oar]

I'm being serious

attached kits don't work for cnc defense because bases don't have the range to actually be able to defend them

[proven thicket]

For this post to be true, there would likely need to be some change to range

[torpid oar]

then we agree that base range is too short right?

[forest willow]

Hard to tell with their responses funny how the crying goldstar got responded too

[proven thicket]

Maybe? Thats possibly what will need to be changed.

[torpid oar]

either beef up the range significantly or make kits difficult to kill from extreme range

as it stands rangers can just pop kits from a distance with 0 risk

[forest willow]

Acting like any stuck together ranger can kill any kit is kinda wild

[torpid oar]

i didn't say that but go off

[forest willow]

Nerfing a whole system of combat is crazy maybe we should just dail back rangers dmg

[torpid oar]

but yeah, half decent rangers can kill auged ada kits from range without too much trouble

[forest willow]

Yea sounds like a ranger problem not really a lets redo how wild space works thing

[proven thicket]

Id love to see vids of that

A proper auged stm kit vs a ranger

[forest willow]

It takes like a good 25mins

[torpid oar]

nah, I've seen endgame rangers do it in a couple mins per kit, though i don't know if they were stm kits or not

[forest willow]

Hi I'm a dev I have no idea what actually goes on in the game 😆

[forest willow]

Maybe with a gunner and fc amp

[proven thicket]

A proper auged and skilled kit is like, orders of magnitude difference amount of ehp

[forest willow]

Other wise your capping

[torpid oar]

nope, no auras

[forest willow]

Either way I think the actual change that needs to happen is a reduction of ranger dmg

[torpid oar]

yeah, it could just have been exe kits, they weren't in a valuable gal so probs no need for stm kits there

[forest willow]

Or poor poor aidelon may disband again

[proven thicket]

The cnc is so vulnerable ada kits dont really matter tho

[torpid oar]

I think hober said there are more changes coming to ranger

[torpid oar]

yeah, kinda sucks they start from 0 hp too, you can have any stealthy class just bursting down cnc kits as soon as they're laid to deny people even trying to claim

[proven thicket]

Cnc adjustments are definitely in the realm of possibilities

[hybrid canyon]

if you're using however many alt accs just to reach the base limit on a gal, you're losing crazy amounts of other gals you could be taking, a good amount of time, and anyone can kill those bases unless you're also gearing/auging them. also you can just make building in a gal with cnc from another team a perma hostile action towards that team until the bases are gone, so they kill each other if somehow they still try to bypass gal defense limits (since they need to be close enough to be effective and they wouldnt be able to)

[frank light]

Sounds to me like most good ideas are avoided due to the potential of alt team abuse, and your unwillingness to police alt teams.

To me this essentially says that the dev team are the problem because you are unwilling to do what's necessary to remove the roadblocks because you simply do not want to put in the work.

Don't complain that your hands are tied behind your back when you hand somebody the rope to do so.

[hybrid canyon]

the best solution is to make abusing stuff not worth the effort, wether you police stuff or not. you have to actually want to do something about it tho

[proven thicket]

I wont talk about policing alt teams anymore, if @teal wave wants to inform you why it wont be something we'll be doing, hes free to do so.

[frank light]

Agreed, which they do not. They want to "code a solution" instead of policing but they been telling us that for years.

[inner marten]

The confidence with which you hold the conviction that we don't want to do something about it is inspirational.

[hybrid canyon]

maybe it sounded harsher than i meant to, srry. i still think it's possible to find a solution where you dont have to police anything and people dont abuse the system

[frank light]

I mean if you did you've collectively as a team had over a decade and done nothing.

It's not confidence it's experience

[inner marten]

If you legit think this is possible and you have an idea, all of our DMs are open and we would be super happy to find a way to implement it if it actually would create a system we don't need to police. We've spent so much time on it, its ridiculous.

Some of the stuff we've come up with is far more extreme than anything ya'll have suggested. In both the Pro PvP and Anti PvP direction.

[hybrid canyon]

i already suggested something like 5 messages above, what would be a practical example of abuse of that system?

you'd need to drop a cnc and let's say 5 unatached kits, then do that with another 16 teams (seriously?), aug those bases for regen (otherwise they'd die and people can build), gear/aug you actual defense, all this in the couple hours it takes to claim. all that effort of "abuse" for a single gal. do you honestly think anybody is going to abuse that lol

[oblique steppe]

Seems like a lot of disconnect between devs and what the game is actually like.

[kindred fox]

That sounds totally within the realm of what I have already seen players do

A certain team make 9 alt teams to 9v1 an opponent

And yes, this was to win a single galaxy

[frank light]

How do you know they were alt teams?

[kindred fox]

It was not only common knowledge but by their own free admission lol

[frank light]

I'm being pedantic no need to answer that

[kindred fox]

We take this feedback post seriously, all sides of it

[flint shard]

All I'll say is: Never underestimate the willpower of players.

If I really hate my opponent, or I really want the gal, I may surpass all logic and reason and do the irrational (player hypothetical).

[hybrid canyon]

right, i think that's fine tho

maybe you guys dont 😅

[kindred fox]

I will make a priority of having some positive changes to wild space prepared for next reset. My personal priorities there are:

• players should be fighting each other during some ownership contests
• these fights should hopefully make good memories, even sometimes for the losers
• players can achieve appropriate progression rates even if they can’t get their first choice galaxy. Same goes for passive income
• players should be able to figure out what it takes to own a galaxy without incurring severe losses of time and resources to termites

I can’t necessarily make all of these come true in one fell swoop but those are some big things I’m working toward

[kindred fox]

12+ years working on this game has taught me that nothing breeds resentment more than the feeling that your opponent won by a dirty tactic

We learned that lesson the hard way and we won’t forget it anytime soon

[hybrid canyon]

i consider spending that amount of resources losing

is that wrong?

[kindred fox]

Yes

Because what matters is how the actual loser feels about it.

They are the ones who are going to quit in outrage

[flint shard]

It's not about winning, it's about sending a message.

I hate this Coji guy so much, I will gladly collaborate massbuilds to get the assets to BVB you with a "waste" of resources just to make a point. That's how players are.

[kindred fox]

If the strongest visceral reaction is against a player that beat you dirty, the second strongest is against an admin that interfered to cause you to lose

[hybrid canyon]

first of all, you'd only do that to defend against one of the big teams, and it can only be done by one of the big teams. second, if you see somebody doing that, you go "cool" and move on. there's no loser in this scenario but the person that did the effort to mount that 100 station gal

[flint shard]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[proven thicket]

Or in some cases, didn't intervene when you wanted them to

[flint shard]

It may be worth. Sometimes yes sometimes no.

[kindred fox]

Those learnings are exceedingly clear from the long and eventful history of this game. There’s no real room for debate and we would do well to heed them

[frank light]

If your game mechanics lead to players quitting, perhaps something needs to change whilst there's is still a playerbase.

[kindred fox]

Indeed. Hence why we won’t make changes that invite more alt team abuse

[hybrid canyon]

i guess that's true, the abuse would come from people doing alt teams to assault somebody, rather than somebody mounting a defense

[flint shard]

I think alt teams are going to be hard to solve unless somehow it's far easier to retain war/aggro, than it is to make new alts and alt teams.

And even then, not perfectly

[frank light]

Gut/limit PvP more, you lose the hardcore PvP base, don't do enough you lose the people who get griefed by them.

Healthy PvP is good for the game, where everybody enjoys it, but SS breeds one sided grief fest.

Traders for example enjoy PvP, actively go out and mess with people and PvP where they can. Alternatively you have half the game ally up against them because they dare to PvP which is equally as toxic.

[kindred fox]

I think there’s a happy medium here where completely frivolous low-effort interdiction isn’t possible but there’s still plenty of room for an opponent to pressure an ownership claim

[torpid oar]

it's not so much that they pvp to be fair, but that the tactics are often what you might conventionally consider "dirty"

(and also they tend to be sore losers if they don't win)

[frank light]

The main issue raised in this thread I believe was that people were blowing up cncs not to contest ownership, but just for the sake of ruining somebody's day.

Whilst I think that's a bit toxic, when PvP has been so restricted that that's one of the few ways people can get PvP I understand it.

[torpid oar]

that said, we've had some fair fights against traders too, and those fights are very enjoyable

[flint shard]

It's not that TR choose to PVP, it's that, uh... they get in my way so I am now forced to learn pvp in self defense. 😂
And I hold nothing against them, it's the nature of the game and player politics to let you choose how you want to play (tbh it's a good thing TR have been pvping so much).

[kindred fox]

I’m going to gather some facts to understand the current balance better before I touch anything.

I don’t have a problem with a team going around blocking ownership claims for the lols as long as it’s not so low-effort as to just be a joke

Such a team would probably appreciate a bit more of a fight anyway. You can only get so many jollies from sneezing on noobs

[torpid oar]

depends how you define low effort, I mean, if it's an endgame team picking on a bunch of lower tier players that don't stand a hope of beating them off, that's pretty toxic (and bad for the game) imho

[kindred fox]

Like, if you can still knock people over for fun but you at least have to think somewhat strategically or use certain mechanics, that’s good

[hybrid canyon]

the entirety of human history suggests that some people do in fact not get bored of sneezing on noobs 😅

[flint shard]

I do think the TTK on some things are pretty low though.

CNC can get solo'd by most classes, and even ada kits can get rangered down quite quickly.

[oblique steppe]

Glad to see Traders causes so much discontent 🥹🥲

But yeah, alt teams and MCing prevents a lot of things in the game from being good.

Potential solutions to the Anatolia or WS alt teaming for BvB, would be restricting how often someone can join a team after leaving, or requiring a certain team score (or other parameter that would require an active team) to participate in things

[kindred fox]

That’s what I’m going to gather data on so that I don’t over correct anything

[frank light]

Quick bandaid solution to griefng cncs with no intention of contesting would be to simply restrict PvB/BvB even more in galaxies with cncs, to ONLY allow teams that have a CNC down and actively constructing to take aggressive actions in said galaxy.

No cncs in play, no restrictions. Active claim attempt, restrictions

[kindred fox]

There are plenty of creative things we can do if we want cncs to last longer

What’s going to take more work is actually making some calls about player vs base balance and improving the UX of building so people aren’t hamstrung by it as they try to mount a claim

[flint shard]

I think you guys really could benefit from some metric data on base SOBs. Damage taken timestamps, and even just having someone get into an undetectable admin ship and warping to the place of action to watch.

[frank light]

I'm just offering an idea as a potential solution to the specific 'problem' that spawned this thread

[flint shard]

Doesn't have to be a permanent thing, just a debug turn on/off.

[kindred fox]

We have the capability to collect a lot of that and indeed already have some of this kind of information. It’s just not at my fingertips

[flint shard]

Ah

[kindred fox]

So what I mean is I am personally going to inform myself

[torpid oar]

I'm glad the thread spawned a lot of healthy discussion about it

[kindred fox]

Same. I’d also just like to point out that it’s 2 days since the thread was posted and that’s honestly a more realistic timeframe to expect

As some of you know, I am caring for a 3 week old baby. I’m not going to be in these threads within 12 hours of posting but my trusty colleagues are really proactive and make sure to notify me when there’s a big feedback thread going on

Baby has been sleeping on my chest this entire time I’ve been responding

[torpid oar]

I mean, I'm the last person who wants to deprive traders of their reset pvp, when you're facing evenly matched opponents, reset pvp is fun, in my view even more fun than the emp contest, it's just not very fun to be on the receiving end of noob dunking with no real intent to actually contest

[hybrid canyon]

my solution didnt work but i still think the defender should be able to put effort in defense, other than just lay a cnc

[flint shard]

😂 I had one day left on main acc sub and I was on all day to pvp (even though my sd lost every 1v1).

It was really fun

[forest willow]

Like I said b4 it's not like you guys give a crap about what actually happens to the pvp community

Let them waste 20 slots to lock down 1 galaxy

How meny galaxies can they do that for lol

[flint shard]

I think that's fine, yeah.

The issue is there's a heavy relationship between required progression and gal ownership, and you can't build over t20 in EF layer.

[torpid oar]

I spent much of the day pvping too, mainly against traders, and I had a blast. it's good fun when you're an even match for each other.

[forest willow]

The only time you had a evenly matched fight is with emf in tow

[torpid oar]

come off it inu, you weren't even there lmao

[forest willow]

I'm eveywhere

[oblique steppe]

He’s a god

[torpid oar]

we didn't team up with emf at all this reset, except for a couple guys at scorpius which traders didn't even contest

the big battles, emf wasn't even present at all

aside from cayhr spectating XYZ in a scoutship

[forest willow]

Few cry baby's like xantra and goldstar aside this game is only kept alive by what little pvp is around

[oblique steppe]

I heard SRX got seal clubbed in any of the fights emf wasn’t partaking in

[torpid oar]

we took XYZ pretty decisively, so you heard wrong i think

[forest willow]

I watched the emf rangers crawl outa the woodwork like roaches attaching themselves to the belly of srx players like parasites

[torpid oar]

ain't sure what you've been smoking man, but it's making you hallucinate

[flint shard]

I totally didn't get too close to some splash and got podded in the middle of all the fireworks 😂

[forest willow]

Yea no one cares about your dog crap pvp performance we want bvb back

[torpid oar]

y'all trolling now, but we had some good fights with traders at reset so i forgive you

[plush light]

Will engineers have a place in pvp or is aoe still overtuned?

[torpid oar]

aoe sucks, but you can work and build around it

[oblique steppe]

Engineer needs massive buffs to be feasible

[torpid oar]

nah i wouldn't go that far

mod inheritance would probs fix most of engi's pvp issues

but the class is by no means useless in pvp

[proven thicket]

mod inherentence alone would give engi like, an absolute ton of stats

if nothing else was done

it would literally be the massive buff that battlestar is talking about

[torpid oar]

I mean, granted, and it would be a huge buff, but I'd rather call it an equalization of the playing field 😂

besides, I'm sure y'all would tinker with the amount of mod inheritance to bring it into balance

[flint shard]

As long as it's not 100v100

[torpid oar]

like eve online, SS also has time dilation for large scale battles