#Class Updates and Neuroforge Information.

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

grim dragon
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and by later today I mean in a couple minutes. Restarting test with the fix then gonna confirm it's fixing the situation we can reproduce.

grim dragon
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ok yeah, the 0 damage while fighting analemmas is fixed. just need to see if the matriarach thing is

snow venture
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i'd need to get through the previous rooms with a shm, it's kind a big chore SadRat

grim dragon
snow venture
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i'm on. ill swap to shm

grim dragon
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swapping to DMs

fierce mural
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It doesn't look like this frequency has been resolved. Testing on livetest rn

image.png
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I think once you start hitting this threshold option 1 should be guaranteed to be a random enhanced mod change and option 3 is guaranteed to be something else (secondary mod swap/addition)

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But never the same

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This needs to get fixed fast or you're gonna waste so much enhance material.

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Jesus 39 stellar batteries and I couldn't make a perfect? lol

red rain
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Not a way to guarantee a different option on how it works at this time. Definitely on the future roadmap

fierce mural
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...Brilliant.

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It wouldn't be so bad if getting items was 5x easier

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But it's just...

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Horrible

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Why lol, where is the foresight for these situations?

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We're a week out and I'm pretty sure EK mentioned this months ago

red rain
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I believe we gave the same response then. We definitely can continue to tweak algorithm as we have when we run into specific situations and will continue to monitor feedback.

fierce mural
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So why didn't you tweak it so this situation doesn't happen... back then?

daring cloak
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it appears the intent is to cost the forger more

red rain
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We definitely did tweak it but as it's written preventing duplicates would require a large refactor and is more of a longer term project.

fierce mural
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Right....

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Brilliant, so it's only half finished.

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So... if I Neuroforge, I'm putting materials I spent time and resources to obtain into an unfinished algorithm... The player is wasting his time if he gets unlucky.

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Why...

daring cloak
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Per my post, Ject's response was "Just how it is."

rapid beacon
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bindoboosters when, btw

craggy wasp
red rain
fierce mural
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Exact same enhance level, too.

craggy wasp
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Aight

fierce mural
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Enhancing and switching the main mod is easy, but switching the secondary mods is difficult.

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It's the only thing holding back NF right now. You can't easily switch and add secondary mods.

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It's clearly obvious that people quickly obtain and level up the main mod, but switching secondaries is why we keep rerolling. For no good reason, the algo hasn't been updated to reflect that.
EDIT: I think the Neuroforging process should try to max out secondary mods as fast as possible, and then start the swapping out RNG. You know that's what everyone will do, why waste time and resources?

fierce mural
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Oh there's another issue that I haven't had time to test (bc it should be the devs' job).
Legacy greens and blues that are 6 modded potentially can obtain more mods than if you were to naturally neuroforge them up to maximum from 2 mods, which is yet another rug pull.
I've observed some high mod drops, but only up to 3. If greens and blues cannot drop with 4 mods, then legacy 6 modded items (2 drop + 4 roll) will be better than newly obtained items. Exotic doesn't have the same issue.

craggy urchin
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/312294840316592129/1308454514352717824/image.png?ex=673e00ba&is=673caf3a&hm=2d9d5de7a373d6a7baae2cf7da300a764e37e19d141ff8c4f52ad87feed95e92&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/312294840316592129/1308454514667294750/image.png?ex=673e00ba&is=673caf3a&hm=690fac628209d716b536446d9aa4416b2a935069abd3f4946c4d30622afdeb52&

I know I've voiced my dissatisfaction about the short range beam changes before but here is another comparison that stood out to me

I honestly don't see any reason to pick the Kalthi Planetary Demolisher over the Titan Mining Laser anymore. The Titan Mining Laser was already a better weapon at the cost of being bigger, and now that they are the same size it has effectively made the Demolisher obsolete (not to mention the Demolisher is way heavier)

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You're basically trading 400% range for a 20% increase in dps, and in practice the dps will be even lower

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long-range beams were already highly favored over short-range ones in most use cases even before this change, and now for some reason the former have been buffed while the latter got nerfed.. ssthinking

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It just feels very out of touch

open grotto
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One has to be built, the other a boss drop... Actually that makes even less sense for this disparity

grim dragon
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Their source doesnt change their stat budget in the balance sheet. Being both rare t22 gear pieces their stat budget is identical

craggy wasp
grim dragon
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That is the lever that is used

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We dont need another one to make making gear even more complex

waxen cliff
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Simplicity is definitely killing it.

grim dragon
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This item definitly has other problems making it a bad and potentially even worse options than before, but the quality level simplicity isn't it.

open grotto
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Would rasing the quality fix those glaring issues?

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Rare > exotic

grim dragon
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No a single quality jump doesn't even give that many stats.

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it would still be bad

red rain
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We appreciate the raising and we will review internally

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Continue to raise situations like this and we will review and make the best decision after research.

fierce mural
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rip Sidearm lasers. Fleeting Strikes is another victim.

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It is way too big now haha.

open grotto
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I think this mediocre tier of introductory items has always been a point of contention for every new tech added (red photon, Kalthi, Empyreal). As a player I'm fine with the introduction of a new tech having the process of farm easier bosses > chance for 1 time blueprint > farm for mats to make an item better then the previous tech

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But when that same item is further made obsolete by an item that is much easier to obtain, that's where a lot of people get off the ferris wheel

red rain
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T22 was overfilled mess of side grades and half tiers that create a lot of situations like that. I definitely agree it's unideal. But at same time quality isn't reflectivity of aquirability. You could do an exalted boss and get easy rare quality items or a rare boss that gives a bp that takes more steps.

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Just continue to raise example of items that overlap like this and we can find if there's improvements to make.

uneven estuary
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I will work with people to identify things we can do with items like this one after the patch. I can't promise anything, but I will work with you.

fierce mural
# red rain T22 was overfilled mess of side grades and half tiers that create a lot of situa...

T22 has a lot of wonderful items that just need changes to make them practical. For example:
Kalthi Striker and Dhatri Zakti(rasa) are too slow. Completely impractical. Either projectiles are too slow, or mobility is too strong/prevalent in the current state of the game.
Antu Agniparvata and Vazi Pralinatas do too little damage to have any impact.
Antu Pralinata is powercrept by the Extracting Drill (which don't get me wrong I welcome its existence). Capital chain mining lasers are highly competitive and saturated, let's see less capital ship oriented items and more interesting items.
A lot of the Aveksaka weapons minus a few like Raja Amzuchid and Cara Amzuchidara are just kinda "meh".

T23 has some really awesome items, but where it falls short is in the ship design department (mainly the Matriarch ships aren't truly legendary and the Empyreal ships need some real buffing).

red rain
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Half of them used to be exotic so it's just greater stat space that's now overlaping

fierce mural
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🤔 Btw, do we get augresets for the class reworks?

junior blaze
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Is there a lockout reset tomorrow, or is it just continuing as normal?

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I'm sure it'll be the latter, but best to ask

red rain
fierce mural
grim dragon
junior blaze
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alright cheers

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I think I'll probably do my lockouts tonight anyway incase we get any instability with the patch

red rain
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Probably a good idea

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I have faith. But plan for worst hope for best.

uneven estuary
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Again I will work with people to figure out what to do with those beams.

inland flax
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Could compensate on EPS significantly

uneven estuary
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Its probably going to involve size changes that reduce the size of the weapons significantly, which will reduce DPS and also increase DPE.

inland flax
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Doesn't that make it useless

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Certain weps like demos fulfilled a niche as powerful sidearms that you have to sacrifice range for

junior blaze
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short range beams should be small in size

uneven estuary
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I know ya'll are using the word sidearm a lot here, but a side arm is something you fall back on when your primary weapon isn't desireable/usable.

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They were not weapons you fell back on, these were powerful short range weapons with high recoil that let you do big damage per hit.

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Making them smaller would make them have higher DPE and be sidearms

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I understand this is a nerf to weapons you have on live, and we nerfed them and they're worse now.

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They were inadvertently too good in a way no other weapon type was, because they were incredibly small while having the damage of a much more massive weapon.

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Any changes I make in consultation with players is going to follow the rules of the tools we use to determine item strength, but I will work with you to find an acceptable outcome.

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They were just small primary weapons, sidearms aren't something you pull out to hit things really hard.

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Just want to acknowledge that it was our fault that they were the way they were for so long.

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We knew how wrong this math was for almost 2+ years, and had decided we were going to fix it with the Neuroforge years ago.

inland flax
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What about sawed off shotguns or ballistic knife

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Sidearms should exist to fill a niche

craggy urchin
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It being a “primary” is what makes these weapons good imo. From my perspective getting in close to acquire your target should be rewarded with damage, not energy savings.

inland flax
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Otherwise we end up with copies of TMLs that are +/- a bit of the range or +/- a bit of DPS

craggy urchin
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There are a lot of targets that are difficult to maintain dps on using short beam weapons

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so at the very least it should have much higher DPH than long range alternatives

uneven estuary
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So right now you get 20% more damage for having 1/4 the range.

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The biggest reason they have so much DPS is because of size categories

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The KPD and TML have the same category when it comes to size

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If I drop the size down, it'll be dramatically smaller for a bit less DPS

inland flax
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Damn that's wild, range is underweighted

uneven estuary
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I don't think so, range is really powerful

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We've seen that empirically in the game

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I'd be fine with identifying a few weapons ya'll would like me to shift the stats around abit, when it comes to size.

inland flax
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But a loss of 75% range was worth 20% more DPS

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All else being equal

uneven estuary
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The trade off needed to be pretty aggressive so it wasn't an instant "Yes I'll take it"

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Similar to shields

craggy urchin
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I’m not against dropping the size but it needs to retain high dph in order to be competitive

craggy urchin
uneven estuary
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When I said "yes I'll take it" I mean "I'll take x% less range for 20% more DPS"

inland flax
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Yeah it's good to have a wide variety

uneven estuary
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Where x% is a value under -75% that almost anyone would take

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If what ya'll are most concerned about is DPH I can do some fiddling

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I have some room to adjust the tools we use with regards to DPH, and was already given the go ahead by my fellow designers.

inland flax
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What if we pulled it down to 1 range and increase DPS by another 20%

uneven estuary
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So the size could go down and I could try to keep DPH in the same ballpark

craggy urchin
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So I would either:

  1. decrease size, reduce dps but retain dph or even increase dph
    or
  2. increase size and dps
uneven estuary
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Interesting

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Ya'll would be ok with me increasing the size on the close up weapons?

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Just as a test?

craggy urchin
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Well, ideally we’d have weapons that fill both categories I mentioned

uneven estuary
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Sure we could figure that out.

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OK here's what I need

inland flax
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I guess it's a good opportunity to test it out, is it possible to get different iterations of these short range weps on test server

uneven estuary
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Can you start another thread in #1034461065376964699 where you highlight maybe ~10 different weapons you'd like to see one or the other happen to. And I can make some examples of what that would look like.

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I only would do a single iteration.

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But we can talk about it before I commit it

craggy urchin
inland flax
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Kinda like an optometrist showing you "1 or 2"

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I think that could help get a feel for how the new weighting is impacting gameplay

uneven estuary
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there would be some weight adjustments for dph though

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anyway, get a feedback thread going

craggy urchin
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I can do that later when I have more time or someone else if they want to, but for now thanks for taking feedback bot_happy

open grotto
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Would you be open to finding new means of making items more or less desirable?

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Give it range and damage for stat reduction or side effects

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Like actually ship stat reductions

red rain
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We expect to make a lot new mods that start in t24. That's not a bad idea.

open grotto
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Looking forward to some really wacky ones then

red rain
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We had a long list kinda like compact but they just weren't reasonable to drag this further out

open grotto
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"-2% dot stacking valn to mining over 45 seconds | does not stack on player owned ships or assets" impossible to balance for pvp so nvm that one

uneven estuary
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We have like 30 other mods we came up with that we didn't implement in the start

craggy urchin
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I hope adding more mods also means implementing features to swap them out easier

uneven estuary
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If we added more mods it would be to higher tech stuff

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Not to lower tech stuff

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So as we go up in tech level we would add mods specifically for that tech level and up.

junior blaze
inland flax
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Yeah the goal should be to encourage the use of these niche weps

junior blaze
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I don't think short range beams really even have a niche anymore. seer is probably going to prefer longer range beams going forward thanks to the loss of its extreme stealth, and for close range situations short-range non-beam weapons win on damage every time

craggy urchin
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based on how range seems to be weighted now you could turn every short range beam weapon into a better one simply by giving them the TML treatment too, but changing the weapons’ identity completely is probably not something we want

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Like I was saying TML before this change was already a solid weapon, and based on this new weighting imagine, it could’ve been an even more powerful weapon if it stayed the same size but gained dps instead

red rain
digital goblet
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Also, is the wiki going to update alongside these updates?

red rain
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The wiki is handled by players.

red rain
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Nor would we. We provide some context but it takes away the magic tbh and you have no need to know