Class Updates and Neuroforge Information.

[junior blaze]

that is a big boost for pvp survivability

are the changes to engi that jecht posted earlier on the test server yet by the way @uneven estuary?

[uneven estuary]

probably

[grim dragon]

we haven't done the crit resist on drones yet, waiting for jey. the rest should be.

[junior blaze]

yeah thats fine, the crit resist on drones is more of a pvp buff anyhow

[upper hollow]

Are we still waiting on AI changes to their skill effects and the boss tweaks?

[grim dragon]

Yes to both I believe

[upper hollow]

Cool

[grim dragon]

we'll be doing a server restart tonight with lots of good stuff

it'll be a new uni unfortunately

but also fortunately?

it'll update to live.

everyone will lose their current NFed stuff.

[upper hollow]

oof, gonna have to spend a couple hours redoing mods

I guess if I can get my testing done first that will let me test like it will be on launch

[grim dragon]

Yeah but there'll be t23 stuff in CTE now

so other people then just you can really get down to business with it

[upper hollow]

SHockingly not a problem for me 😄

[upper hollow]

fair

More people is more better

[grim dragon]

but unforch we gotta do a new uni to do it

there were some that wanted that that have been rapidly updating their stuff on live tho

[upper hollow]

Any chance it is easy to add the Transwarp skills to train? cuts down testing time a lot

[grim dragon]

aha maybe I'll post about that

[upper hollow]

Not huge either way, just a thought

[slow nymph]

Hmm? Will legacy high mod number low quality gear get wiped??

[red rain]

No

[fierce mural]

No, which is why I think low quality gear should be able to mod up to the legacy amounts. They'll be replaced by stronger gear that you want to mod like Exotic+, but it should let enable people to use things like well modded Walls, since those are green but are farmable. The Paradox shield is another contender, but under the new system a naked Paradox will only get 5, while some people have 6 modded ones. The same extends to things like Vaidaya Krmikosa.

[upper hollow]

But you can get a 6 mod legacy paradox up to 7 and a new dropped paradox up to 7 as well.
Legacy Vaidaya was up to 4 and new Vaidaya is up to 7 I believe... idk exactly gow build mods will work, but if it's like drops 7 is the max for it.

[fierce mural]

I mean from naked

You need to get a 3 mod drop to get it

imo in the spirit of "engage with neuroforging as much as possible" you shouldn't gate max mods behind the initial drop

[upper hollow]

Well from naked you could cap at 4 under old system and you can now cap at 6.

[fierce mural]

No you can't, not on greens and blues

I maxed outa VZN and OOP last night

Capped at 4 and 5 respectively

[upper hollow]

Having legacy gear gives you a leg up for sure, but outside of niche cases you can hit the same mods.
I think uncommon and below is the exception where legacy caps at 7 and new caps at 6

[upper hollow]

You can.. I did not understand it at first either because it is pretty convoluted, but the way items drop going forward allows for the same number of max mods on rare and above and allows for 6 on uncommon.
Naked to naked comparison is the same, it was 4 in legacy and is 4 on uncommon and more on rares so nakeds are actually better too.

[fierce mural]

🤔

Idk I just think naked should be able to get up to max. It could just require more work

Like maybe once you hit +100 you can get bonus mods

[upper hollow]

It requires some RNG and some fresh drops.
The thing that has it's value diminished a lot is existing double mod gear... that stuff is now just fodder.

[fierce mural]

Mmm sort of. I think it's okay, because the good double modded dropped stuff you can always attempt a bindo at and get most of what you want out of it, and perfect it as time goes on. Already modded drops that are rare like ATML or RNF Wands just makes things easier for you

[upper hollow]

Actually all modded gear that is NOT at 6 has it's value deminished realistically as it can all be replaced with more mods.

[fierce mural]

I guess to settle this debate, the devs have to make the decision on whether dropping with mods will be the gate for more max mods, or if it is simply a bonus.

I am in favor of the latter.

xd

[upper hollow]

But a 6 trash mod legacy item now has immense value at uncommon as it is irreplaceable.

Above that it is all the same.

Existing triple and even quad hits will be reproducible at lower expense. 6 mod hits are obtainable with heavy invesent, but probably less than previous if you know what you're doing.

[junior blaze]

Amy updates yet on the options of test targets with varying levels of crit resist in beta antares?

[grim dragon]

Should be good in a day or so.

[junior blaze]

excellent 🙏

[grim dragon]

There will be a new uni done today. This new uni will come with CTE with a good portion of the t23 gear in it. There will also be crit resist dummies in CTE.

This means that your current theory crafted setups will be lost and your setups will be your live ones as of today. However with t23 gear being in CTE it should make for some good theory crafting

[cosmic ferry]

How long until done?

[grim dragon]

don't really have an eta rn. Could be soon might not be

[red rain]

I suppose I could make a new uni.

I'm tied up with making drone crit resist scale right but I need to take a break

[cosmic ferry]

OK, no worries. I was just checking to see how long before what I have on live imprints over.

[red rain]

new uni restarting.

I'll add CTE after its up

[grim dragon]

thanks Jecht

[upper hollow]

Where is Brandon, he needs to be handing out dev points.

[red rain]

Server up and CTE placed.

The dummies kinda spam gal chat

So that's probably not going to be a good idea but good enough for now.

I'll sort it later.

[junior blaze]

those are in beta right?

have these been intentionally nerfed from live values?

[red rain]

No.

[red rain]

Please be specific

We don't memorize stats.

[junior blaze]

live values

[red rain]

I know there was adjustments to shields but generally should of resulted in more regen. I'll investigate that shield.

Oh

I know what it is

Shields arbitrarily were gaining stats from -speed

We fixed that so yes. Intended.

[upper hollow]

Like the amount of weighting was off?

[red rain]

No. Straight increased the stats of the item.

Nothing else does that

[junior blaze]

this one's had a huge buff on the other hand, left is test, right is live

[upper hollow]

Gains stats for negative augmod?

[junior blaze]

negative speed augmod removed from M51

[upper hollow]

Or for speed specifically

[red rain]

Just speed

It was removed. And number of shields were adjusted due to such as they created outliers in stats

[junior blaze]

looks like many shields with negative speed augmods have been slightly nerfed

Paradox Shield, The Wall, Shell, etc

[red rain]

Yes.

[upper hollow]

I guess I'll have to reeval BiS then. The big bank -speed shields were a go to for FC and Engi because of that stat weighting

And our relatively limited speeds mechanically.

[junior blaze]

okay that's funny

you can buy from the station, but you can't unequip it or remove it from your ship once purchased

😂

I... might need a hand lmao

[upper hollow]

Can you scrap it?

[junior blaze]

nope

even though it's not equipped in the inventory, it is equipped

at least thrust is not an issue I guess? 😂

okay well the good news is my dps is roughly on par with live against a 50% crit res target

what's perhaps more interesting is that, at least with my build, operative's controller remains the clear dps choice against 25, 50 and 75% crit res @upper hollow

it only starts to equalize against 100% crit res

[cosmic ferry]

glad the dev team found a way to balance engi. gj guys!

[acoustic lake]

Rip regen 😭

[junior blaze]

the regen looks the same

[acoustic lake]

Benefactor is like 2700 on live

2100 on test from that screenie?

[junior blaze]

oh right yeah

didn't even see that

[upper hollow]

You're like Brace/desist/integrity/fluxion?

[junior blaze]

yeah

[upper hollow]

Yea you've got enough bank to where the sustain isn't as big of an issue for most content

[junior blaze]

yeah, this setup sustains most everything

well, for long enough at least

heck I can run siege drones for ages

[upper hollow]

I always consider sustain with Empowerment out.. or at least burst window. I need to be able to have a long enough firing time with it out to down the bosses

But yea, you're looking at ~10% overall dps gains with operatives ofer investigators. and with your bank you've got enough firing time on most things even when overempower is out

[junior blaze]

I carry both anyway, so it's easy enough to switch when need be

[upper hollow]

uhg.. it's about 10% for me as well. I just hate how squishy drones are with it

[junior blaze]

@upper hollow this is with an amped rewired impedance shell, not neuroforged 😂

maxed out amplified just for fun

[grim dragon]

I apologize for all the dam AI in CTE.. I'll try to fix that

[junior blaze]

@grim dragon while you're here, could you do me a favour?

could you unequip this for me please 😂

[grim dragon]

lmao was that for sale in the shop

[junior blaze]

yeah lol

[grim dragon]

it should be unequiped

[junior blaze]

I bought it for fun but it equips as soon as it's purchased lmao

it's still equipped, I think it needs to be deleted from my inv

[red rain]

No soup for you

[junior blaze]

I wonder if I could neuroforge it...

guess not

LOL now I can't undock 😂

[grim dragon]

bruh

[junior blaze]

let's be honest, someone had to try

😇

[upper hollow]

Along a similar line of inquiry, Arrays the bindo boosters in on test or are those still in the design stage?

[grim dragon]

They exist as items, but the actually way to obtain them has not been enabled.

they are fully functional though

[upper hollow]

Nice. I just wanted to be sure I shouldn't keep an eye out for them.

Like the xp boosts keep dropping off random stuff and it is pretty cool imo... but idk if it is intended or just a weird test server thing.

[grim dragon]

hard to say

(I don't know what sets their rate)

[upper hollow]

They shouldn't drop at all

[grim dragon]

or if it's like, if one person is killing stuff on the whole server they get all the drops type thing

there's exp boosts on live too

[upper hollow]

Usually they spawn as a stationary thing in random peri+gals. Never seen them just drop.

[grim dragon]

idk this a @red rain question

[junior blaze]

I've seen them drop

[upper hollow]

And they drop a lot in boss content so I wanted to make sure those weren't supposed to be boosters.

[upper hollow]

On live? From just random ai? Usually they are colorful floating things in gals, not just debris from random ads

I've gotten like a dozen on test and never seen on drop like that on live.

But like... it's neat on test... little bonus nudge to keep grinding lol.

[junior blaze]

yeah I'm sure I've seen them among the debris when I'm grinding KD

composite is actually a good mod now lmao

[red rain]

Mhm. No longer capped to 500k

[junior blaze]

yup

it's actually incredible on heavy engines

[cosmic ferry]

Yea loving that change it’s very viable now

Also vectored with rewired on engine is nice

[red rain]

Pretty sure xp global is a param who often it drops

I wouldn't worry

[junior blaze]

small issue: if you neuroforge an item to its max level, the middle box will be empty (because you can't neuroforge the stat any further), but you can still click it it'll still consume an item anyway

[upper hollow]

That is intentional, otherwise you could be forced to brick your item.

[junior blaze]

how do you mean?

[upper hollow]

All other options could have negative effects, middle choice always keep the same mods but enhances.
If you took that away you could be forced to have 3 choices that all make your item worse.

With the blank you just can't make it better and lose a dupe to RNJesus

[grim dragon]

What Dorian said

I guess that box could say "Do nothing"

instead of justbeing blank

[junior blaze]

yeah I guess so

I just thought it was an oversight

the extra shots from composite make it look like you're multifiring

that's pretty neat

[grim dragon]

cause it is MFing 😛

[junior blaze]

"mom I want multifiring!"
"no, we have multifiring at home."

[fierce mural]

Roh when can we test out bindo booster drop rates?

I need blues

A lot of them

[digital goblet]

Looks like on the 100% crit target, my engi setup gets 26k dps vs 30k on live with 1 min 10sec sustain
Increasing imp tweak from 3 to 5 and cybernetic targeting to 5 from 0, my drone crit chance is 95.4% and dps increases to 26.6k
Stats for TD140 (Camo6)

Energy Max: 7.954444
     The Emperor's Augmenter: 0.52470(+)
     Ares Offensive Mode Augmenter: 2.3320(+)
     Zen of the Energy: 0.50
     Zen of Engineer: 0.3750
Energy Charge: 1.461075
     Zeus Olympios Radar: 0.10(+)
     The Emperor's Augmenter: 0.29150(+)
     Zen of Engineer: 0.050
Electric Tempering: 0.690740
     The Emperor's Augmenter: -0.304174(+)
     Zen of Engineer: -0.0250
Damage: 4.055583
     Haraka Aegis: 0.30(+)
     The Emperor's Augmenter: 0.34980(+)
     Ares Offensive Mode Augmenter: 0.594660(+)
     Celestial Nebulae Augmenter: 0.5830(+)
     Ruined Ordnance Drone Controller: 1.0350(+)
     Zen of Engineer: 0.050
Rate of Fire: 4.380096
     The Emperor's Augmenter: 0.69960(+)
     Ares Offensive Mode Augmenter: 1.014420(+)
     Celestial Rage Augmenter: 0.87450(+)
     Celestial Nebulae Augmenter: 0.5830(+)
     Zen of Engineer: 0.050
Hostility: 0.850
     Subtlety: -0.150
     The Emperor's Augmenter: 0.11660(+)
     Ares Offensive Mode Augmenter: 0.093280(+)
     Celestial Rage Augmenter: 0.23320(+)
     Celestial Nebulae Augmenter: 0.23320(+)
     Ruined Ordnance Drone Controller: 0.230(+)
     Cybernetic Targeting: 0.0250
Critical Hit Strength: 2.459180
     Ares Offensive Mode Augmenter: 0.46640(+)
     Celestial Rage Augmenter: 0.93280(+)
     Cybernetic Targeting: 0.0250
Projectile Velocity: 1.28750
     Ruined Ordnance Drone Controller: 0.28750(+)
Energy Damage: 1.050
     Energy Control: 0.050
Heat Resistance: 1.050
     Heat Resist: 0.050
Damage per Second: 57
     Weaponry: 57
Energy Charge: 57
     Electrical Engineering: 57

Fallen Drone Cannon:
Damage: 814 (313.07 DPS, 0.370 DPE)
Recoil: 2.6s
Electricity: 2179 (838.07 EPS)

[grim dragon]

Won't be during this current project

[fierce mural]

Aight

Also

2/2 DGs I've visited have broken exit wormholes

3/3, I think DGs are broken

[grim dragon]

@fierce mural we have to restart the server once after new uni

and it fixes DGs

schedule a restart in 10 mins

[digital goblet]

Found a new bug:
+item weight from extended mod on shields also seems to increase its size

[grim dragon]

ty

Looks like this one was also already reported in another thread

[digital goblet]

Looks like its only for Extended, Amplified is fine because the tooltip is 'item weight' on Amplified and "Item Weight" on Extended

[junior blaze]

looks like I'm going to need a lot of legendary bindo boosters to do this on live

[grim dragon]

legendary?

what legendary item are u enhancing

[junior blaze]

ah exalted, not legendary

[grim dragon]

that's what I thought lmao

[junior blaze]

luminous abated impedance shell

[cosmic ferry]

Bindo boosters sound amazing tbh

Hope this gets added quickly after neuroforge

[junior blaze]

reserve judgement until you see their source

[cosmic ferry]

lol true

[junior blaze]

I'm p. sure the bindo boosters will be expensive

10 mil shield and 85% resists is a riot though

I dread to imagine what heavily neuroboosted zerks are going to be like

[uneven estuary]

I wanna know if anyone's gonna try out some regen shields 😛

[uneven estuary]

Zerk is just nasty atm, we gotta figure something out without killing the class.

[junior blaze]

I've tried out M51s

haven't tried the uh

[uneven estuary]

Well there's not too many heavy regen shields anyway, truth be told

[junior blaze]

the other matriarch shield whose name eludes me, because I'm not currently planning to build one on live

but looking at its buffed stats, I'm sorely tempted

[uneven estuary]

Basically just Reconstructive Citadel and Luminous Consecrated Crystalline Form

We recognized their shield bank stats weren't good enough to justify using them

[junior blaze]

shield regen has a really nice synergy with engi resists

yeah, 90k is a much better number honestly

[uneven estuary]

its got a nice synergy with Ranger too 😛

[junior blaze]

it's a shield I might actually consider building and using

[uneven estuary]

thats good to hear

I've been scratching my head for a long time trying to figure out how to make regen shields worthwhile to players, took a long time to convince the team to let me increase shield bank on regen shields.

[junior blaze]

it's a shame M51's shield regen took a hit, but it's still a pretty nice shield, especially with the speed penalty removed

I'm actually overall happy with the change to it

with the ease of getting duplicates to neuroforge the living heck out of it, it's got the potential to be a very powerful engi shield

maybe on par with the matriarch ones, at least until bindo boosters arrive

it's probably the first thing I'm going to NF heavily once the update hits live

[junior blaze]

only problem is the two matriarch shields are way too large for ranger I think

they're both >1k hull each

oof, that one's 2.3k

I don't think we'll see ranger using it any time soon 😂

[uneven estuary]

Probably, but nothing's stopping me from adding more stuff 😛

[junior blaze]

reconstructive citadel would work for ranger, but imo it still has a very low bank

but yes, more regen shields would be nice, they're pretty underrated

for solo grinding they're far better than low regen bank shields

[upper hollow]

They're really not. The power of OOC scaling to 1% Shield bank largely offsets it.
EHP in a fight generally there is a pretty long gap before regen shields surpass bank shields.. and regen shields do nothing to prevent 1 shots which a lot of mechanics fall under.
Game design has necessitated maximum survivability with either a healer or life steal for some time. Generally speaking regen is just dead weight outside of HPS focused setups where the ability ro do your job hinges on you having shields to provide.

The only class that can really lean on regen is stealth classes where they can stop taking incoming fire.
You could double the regen on every shield sub 4k and they would still be a worse choice in most situations.

Plus they are elec heavy and therefore bad for any sustain setup.
Sustain setups have been almost completely pushed out of the meta because the stat spread.doesn't allow for it, shield and elec regen cost too much in the balance sheets to make them viable.

With more tempering from mods and enhanced OC it'll be a little stronger, but there being more bank mods means bank still scales better.

[junior blaze]

I can't speak to the maths you're basing it on, but from my own experience of playing with higher regen engi setups, when doing solo content and especially ones where fights can last a while, the ehp gain over the length of the fight is very noticeable, to the point that it's actually one of the biggest things I miss about my old setup. some of those higher rift scores I've pushed in the past have been made easier by having more regen on my own shields enabling me to, for example, focus heals on a particular drone without draining my own bank, or even having healing drones out which can sustain their own healing. even during the testing of this patch, where you've found your survivability suffering in KD due to increased TTK, it's something I've not had issues with myself as I have enough regen to generally remain comfortable as long as I'm not overwhelmed.

of course in squad content where you've got healers, bank wins all day, but for solo grinding, running lockouts on higher difficulty etc (which make up the bulk of what I do), regen starts to see a lot more value.

(for real though, having healing drones which can heal without draining their bank is something I really miss about my old 2 bana crit setup)

even now there's certain stuff I just find easier by switching to my OC molded M51, simply by virtue of the extra regen

and I think next patch a heavily neuroforged M51 will still be one of my mainstays

just as an example, when I'm soloing BNF, the extra regen makes a big difference, because it means any residual damage I take will regen, meaning my drones don't have to waste time healing me over the other drones taking more damage

[uneven estuary]

Even in group content, having some regen makes a significant difference.

Its not difficult to calculate the amount of time it would take for your regen setups effective shields to outweigh the bank shields increased total bank.

[digital goblet]

My cheap BIS equipment:

[junior blaze]

with the M51 equipped on live I have about 8k/sec, which over the course of a 3 min fight is nearly 1.5m shield

[uneven estuary]

The point about electricity costs is a good one though, especially since ETemp doesn't effect regen shields energy costs 🙂

[junior blaze]

to be fair, it's not something I notice, so it's pretty negligible to me

for something like a zerk or SD which also has to power their weapons though it would be a different story

[uneven estuary]

I had fun, during internal testing, experimenting with regenerative Speed Demon/Seer/Gunner/Ranger. Its definitely doable. 🙂

[junior blaze]

it's definitely something which comes down to individual preferences and use cases though

it's a nice qol thing to have in scenarios where you're taking moderate damage often rather than heavy damage all at once

[upper hollow]

The survivability issues were mostly due to bugs with the ai iirc lol.

The ttk increase is well offset by the NF mods, I think I did all the fallen back to back with about 2.8m shields left, which is more than the diff of what I gained, hence the content feeling worse even at high investment.

Hps drones on a dps engi are imo best suited for a short burst,I'd rarely have to use 2-3 when I'm not cheesing with drone agro because I generally find that mechanically boring.

Rift scores I've been able to top all of when pushing those to the limit, but I generally don't find the time is worth the reward so it's mostly when bored.

The EHP numbers hit even around 2 minutes previously assuming similar amounts of damage taken, given the mobility of m51 builds previously that likely wasn't the case. With the increases to multaplicative bank mods and the limited scaling of regen I'm sure that gap has widened.
Bugged benefactor is certainly more appealing, but there is simply no way to outscale bank with regen given the amount of sources.

With shm and double OC shields and multiple regen augs sure, but on engi the stats just cost too much. 30% regen augmod vs 15% resist Aug mod, 20% regen augmod vs 20% speed or another 15% resist, 5% regen vs another 10% resist... the stat sources unless invested in just don't offset.

[upper hollow]

You had fun testing with DS drones too.
Fun and min/maxed rarely align.
It might be viable maybe.. but oof.

[junior blaze]

I mean, it's not something I'd go all in on and prio it over stuff like speed and resistance, but rather it was just there because of the augs I was using, and the difference it made in the content I mostly do was pretty noticeable, enough so that I miss having it now

[grim dragon]

We see that regen isn't very popular, we'll give it a buff and see if people find uses for it 🙂

More bank for the shields, more classes get regen bonuses

Maybe it gets used, maybe it doesn't

[junior blaze]

honestly if you can slip some regen bonuses into engi class skills (as long as it doesn't cost dps stats) go for it

[upper hollow]

Making it more viable certainly seems like the play.
The numbers speak for themselves.
It should be a cool and utilized play style.

[grim dragon]

Now we just need some more serious sustain fights >:)

lots to think about and create for ya'll to play with/against

[upper hollow]

I think sustain setups in both elec and shield regen need some nice buffs to bring them to par and would love to see those back on the table. I too miss my sustain setups.

[grim dragon]

And we made a step for shield regen builds here. Can't build rome in a day but we'll see how it's taken

[upper hollow]

Long fights with the current drop rates are pretty rough. Even doing matriarch with limited squads felt bad with it taking 20 minutes and you getting at least 1-2 bps.

I clear all of ce or ruined sanc in less time

[junior blaze]

yeah I agree with that, there needs to be a little more in terms of drops

[upper hollow]

There doesn't need to be if things are scaled to solo/duo within a reasonable time.

But like the Grand Eclipse fight is like 5 minutes.. but takes a pretty full squad... multiple people's time/lockout is just burned weekly with no reward.

[junior blaze]

I mean in squad content of course

when you can go weeks or sometimes even months between seeing some of the more desirable BPs and everyone wants them, it can be rough

[upper hollow]

Plus if some people can solo duo and some can't, but can contribute to larger squads, the rift scaling may allow a full complement with FCs and shms and hps engis and gunners, etc.. all those support classes that can't solo now can add to a scaled run with more drop organically.

[junior blaze]

but honestly I would love rift scaling to smaller groups

and even solo

[upper hollow]

Balance is hard, but we have mechanisms in place already that allow for scaling to offset undertuned fights and offset current drop rates.

[junior blaze]

more stuff in the vein of ruined sanctuary would be very nice

[grim dragon]

We have a drop rate project in the near future to address this.

[upper hollow]

Agreed, this stuff is at a spectacular balance rate and have enough chase drops to always feel worth doing every week.

[junior blaze]

haraka station is a boss I love the design of, because it's solo but also difficult enough to be challenging

[upper hollow]

I know I know lol.
But I can only comment on how things are now and why certain aspects feel unrewarding... like really long fights 😉

[grim dragon]

Yep totally agree

but also the long sustain fights I'm talking about don't exist either

[upper hollow]

I love station and mine layer. Kuhaninis a little boring, but playing asteroid peekaboo is kinda fun.

[upper hollow]

I mean matriarch is the prime example. Even short runs of that are like 10 minutes with a full squad.

If the gear wasn't absolutely bonkers people wouldn't do it... heck tons of people that can do it just don't because it's too much hassle.

I was doing 8+ runs a week for months.. and then with the recent changes I maybe do it once because it just isn't worth it to chase.

[grim dragon]

What's a hastle, just that it's long if your damage is low or that the drop rates don't relfect the length and difficulty?

[junior blaze]

I find minelayer a little on the boring side because there isn't much challenge to it, but bullet hell fights like haraka station I think suit SS' arcadey style brilliantly

and it's an all-round great boss

[upper hollow]

The biggest issue imo is the inconsistency of the fight.
The fighter change makes managing assets hard, the Mines overlapping constantly or running back to back, the double burner supers, the desync.

[grim dragon]

Yeah, just an issue with making something so complex.

[upper hollow]

Before you could mechanically control the fight if you knew it very well, most of that is just out the window now. It's more luck than skill.

[grim dragon]

It went over the top there that's for sure

[upper hollow]

It was my absolute favorite fight before... every failure was due to a mistake I made or poor planning.

That is not the case any more

[grim dragon]

The complexity makes keeping it exactly the same forever as the games code evolves basically impossible

[upper hollow]

I'm a Dark Souls fanboy... that fight was heaven... now it's just a deck cut

[upper hollow]

That's fair

[grim dragon]

If I tried to spend the time to make all the phases very consistent, it would take me the same amount of time that I could spend making something totally new.. and a lot less frustrating.

[upper hollow]

Try mine layer on like 3.1 lol.
It gets spicy.

I wish the little roids weren't in the middle.. they are the limiting factor to scaling it super high on engi at least.

Also Innis way harder.on test now with the shield bar changes... but those are super buggy.. incan clearly see and detect things and no bar shows lol.
Plus my own bar not showing half the time.

[grim dragon]

Yea yeah ikik

it's like one line if we have to revert it

[upper hollow]

I know.. it just sucks because it was such a good fight.

[grim dragon]

can't bring it back to exactly how it was given how very specifically it was utilizing bugged AI tags

Trust me, I would if I could

[upper hollow]

Don't you hate when bugs make the game better.
Man I miss the bugged OOC where it only cared if you were shooting 🤣

[stiff saddle]

10 minutes is an agonizingly long time in matriarch 😰. When I am active I certainly would not be bothering with it if every run was 10-20 mins

I also agree the amount of loot feels awful for a 5 person squad too. This is going to get even worse now that mod chance is given to built items and you need dupes for NF… in matriarch I mean. I assume the same problem exists for grand eclipse but I have not been around since its launch

[upper hollow]

Getting multiple people ready and out there takes forever too.
Realistically it's like a 40-50 minute excursion doing team runs.

Swapping gear, bots, chars, equipment.. I was spending like 4-5 hours a week in there... and it was worthwhile since it was like shared loot for a couple people..
But now the likelihood of a wipe is just too damn high and it adds way too much overhead.

I'll have to try it post rework. I'm hoping the player power gains help offset the changes.

[junior blaze]

wait, shield bars not showing is intentional?

[grim dragon]

Its supposed to only be if you cant detect the enemy.

So like, totally invisible to you.

But it obviously isn't working very well even if the code change was very simple

[junior blaze]

ahh right

yeah it's very buggy

[grim dragon]

Yeah for sure

[junior blaze]

speaking of buggy, do extinguishers and pest controls even do anything anymore?

it seems like they make no difference to the rate at which they decay when you're ooc

[open grotto]

Not sure if it is possible but I think the weighting scale current used to determine the balance of shield recovery should be reviewed

Take the Celestial Mark Augmenter for example:

How balanced in comparison would it be if you substitute the Shield max stat for Shield Recovery +100%?

I've never seen the calculator/method used to determine if an item is within the bounds of being balanced but I believe there's so much room for shield recovery/energy Regen to be added where shield bank/energy bank is placed or even left out, especially when you look at all the subspace themed augmenters

Wouldn't even mind if you could combine a t23 DPS focused augmenter with the +shield recovery/+energy Regen on the subspace augs through some upgrade blueprint/trade-in/mission

[grim dragon]

Something like this's out come isc learning from it and applying thosec lessons to future itemz. Going back and changing stats on something like an aug is no fun.

[open grotto]

Well Hobers done it before lol

And until new augs are added to favor a skew towards complimenting a recovery based setup, shield bank will remain the only way to play a non-support class

Just the context that prompted a lot of what I'm saying

Also shield bank is a stat that is complimented by numerous outside skills such as Zen of Shield/Kalthi skills/imp skills/ship hulls and class Zen skills

Shield Regen on the other hand can only be gained from less desirable Augs and item mods

I understand that with the new adjustments to classes it is being improved but I honestly don't think that alone will be enough and until it can be viewed outside of this neice premium play style (as I think the math of the game has suggested that it is not) bank will continue to be the only way to play at scale

[grim dragon]

I didnt have the level of oversight then that I do now

[grim dragon]

Class skills as well

And lasting will( imp skill)

[open grotto]

Aye I was wrong on that, imp skills are for Regen

But that just proves my point further, Regen should not be this primum stat that can only be obtained at the highest level of the game

I'm not saying it should be weighted less then bank but on even grounds would be where it can be viewed without breaking things

Would be a bit better if one could opt in/out of getting either the max amount of shield Regen through the class instead of shield bank

Rather then having both

Well that's besides the point

[uneven estuary]

lol stats may still change if warranted 🙂

Also, something to keep in mind super-subnet:

From a balance perspective, it is much more acceptable to give more shield bank than shield recovery. +Shield Bank increases your effective shields linearly, and the ttk against you linearly. So does +Resistance to Damage. +Recovery does not increase your effective shields, or ttk linearly. Shield Recovery is incredibly powerful because you can reduce the damage you take near or to zero.

[junior blaze]

^^^

[uneven estuary]

The longer you are able force a fight to go without OOC, the more powerful recovery is. Shield Recovery is an expensive stat because of that. The same thing is true of Energy Recharge, but Energy Recharge can't make you immortal.

[junior blaze]

shield regen can be very powerful

[open grotto]

What would be a suggestion to allow Shield Regen to scale linearly?

One suggestion would be to add a way for Regen to degrade over time during a fight where your Shield Regen accounts for more then half of the damage you've taken during the previous server tick

For example, you have a bank of 1k and a Regen on 300

[red rain]

I mean you can look at ShM as a problem with recovery already. Once they have enough regen, they're unkillable in some pve content.

[open grotto]

But shield monkeys need to take damage to be able to clear that kind of content

It's a means to no end

[red rain]

But they only need to do more damage then their enemies regen

and can take as long as they want 😛

[open grotto]

I think that's fine for a class that gains no inherent damage bonuses, and my example also aims to solve that

[red rain]

Well unfortantely there's bots

so its not solved

XD

and stealing only amplifies this cause it does do damage

😛

#DevProblems

[open grotto]

Stealing is very different from shield Regen, it's actually counter productive

But here, 1k bank and 300 Regen:

You take 100 damage, it should lower your Regen temporarily by a 10th since 1000/100 max shields

You out regen that instance of damage but now you are at 270 Regen

If you take more damage then your Regen allows then there's no problem, the ttk doesn't mater imo since it will then revert to who destroys who first but I'm sure something can be arranged if other disagree on that.

[uneven estuary]

I don't see a problem with how regeneration works as long as its controlled in the way it is.

We don't really need to do massive changes.

Every bit of damage you mitigate via dodging or blockers or distributing it to different targets significantly increases the power of regeneration. I've noticed on my Riftjumper's that their survivability in content is drastically increased when the shield has a decent amount of regeneration on it (like 1500). Mind you, I'm a Shield Monkey but they only get half of my bonuses.

Anyway, I think shield recovery augmod is in a good spot. Lets see how things work after the recovery increases to other classes.

[junior blaze]

yeah I think the only tweaks needed are to individual shields themselves

[fierce mural]

Shield regen has parity with your shield max and resists, too...

100k regen with 90% resists is way better than 100k regen with 50% resists

[craggy wasp]

How is this a problem? if ya invest a ton into defence sacrificing offence yea ya can tank everything but ya aint doing as mutch damage as ya could

[red rain]

It's not really that binary with shm

[craggy wasp]

Considering how alot of the content goes straight for bots....

[red rain]

More to come. Nothing projected on first release.

[fierce mural]

Are the available rarities of bindo boosters still being debated? Last I heard they were going to be exotic+ only, but I would love if we still got greens and blues. Not all items are sourced equally, see something like a Vazi Pralinata vs the Tracker Greens, and Empyreal Flame Cannons vs the built Celestial items.

[grim dragon]

Bindo boosters will not be available at the launch of this project.

It's a tool for us to fine tune exactly how it fits into the game. That vision is not yet clear.

[fierce mural]

Hrmmm darn...

[grim dragon]

There's a lot of issues with them especially the fact that they currently are tech agnostic.

If done wrong they could make like.. any grinds that do not provide bindo boosters as basically dead content

They are deeply problmetic if done wrong. Not gonna rush them.

[waxen cliff]

Could make them not tech agnostic and let higher tech ones work on lower tech

[upper hollow]

Oohh tech not quality, interesting.

[red rain]

There's still a ton of other problems

We gunna see how it goes for now.

[grim dragon]

then we'd have to make like one hundred different bindo booster items lol

of all tech and quality comboes

But generally it's really unclear what to do with them. In this case the code support for them was much easier then everything else

[waxen cliff]

I'd just stick to tech and put them as top tier rewards for that tech.

Tarnished Imp Chest level of drop chance kinda thing.

But I know how much everyone dreads doing drop tables.

[grim dragon]

That's the closest thing we had for an idea too. But only for high quality bindo boosters.

lower quality ones, we had another idea. You'll have to wait and see for it tho

[fierce mural]

Yeah there are lots of blues in the game that are still very useful/good/BIS/whatever attribute you want to prescribe, but their methods of acquisition are entirely different

Roh can't you generate items, like how spacy and speedy standard augs are?

Maybe make a tech level booster and each quality level requires a different amount?

So a t22 Blue might take 8 of t22 boosters, but a T22 Exotic would take 16

🤔 Well, no rush. It could definitely break the game if you were able to easily obtain exotic boosters in some t19 content and just god forge t23 Exotic items

[upper hollow]

lol, booster tokens that you trade in for the tech/quality you want

[red rain]

We did adjust some NF chances but it requires a new client. Once Jey updates that I'll let you know.

[upper hollow]

Was it like fixing the weird double instances of the same roll and all that jazz from last week?
Or is it top secret maybe they'll figure it out changes 😄

[grim dragon]

No double instance of same roll is WAI unfortunately

Hopefully what we did today here makes it less likely though.

[open grotto]

are any of the class locked proficiency augmenters getting rebalanced?

[uneven estuary]

No.

[fierce mural]

Hober, I forgot to mention: I don't want you to be discouraged about my disappointment over the change to AOG, I would prefer if those stats were on another aug. There is a use for it that I'd like to workshop, it's just that changing an existing aug and removing the current AOG's stat spread was not ideal.

Just as a kind of segway into subnet's point there

[uneven estuary]

Yeah I was about to mention that but decided to just say no instead

I can always add another aug with that stat spread.

[fierce mural]

Yeahh, exactly! I like the push to try and get us to use regen setups, but in the current meta maximum upfront tank is so powerful it will take some convincing and theorycrafting lol

[uneven estuary]

Sure thing

[inland flax]

i think we should replace shield recov on aog to something else

[uneven estuary]

Go check test again

[inland flax]

oh thats interesting

hober really did listen to my feedback

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-gif-26920879

[cosmic ferry]

Bring on the Epsilon client 👍

[red rain]

It'll still be delta

[digital goblet]

Mfw we skipped Gamma

[grim dragon]

delta souded cooler

[upper hollow]

Did you guys brick NF?

I did an uncommon item that had 1 enhanced and 2 unenahnced mods 200 times and never got the option to add a 4th mod.

[grim dragon]

Needs a new client

so, yes

[upper hollow]

I also had a Rare item with only 1 enhanced mod and after about 60 rolls never got the option to add a single additional mod.

ok... as long as that is the issue lol

[grim dragon]

We have no way to know until we check with the new client

[upper hollow]

I remembered seeing you gusy say that, but I didn't think it would break one specific mod type

[red rain]

Yeah the chances are misalgined on client.

I'll double check it's not busted on my new client

[upper hollow]

Can someone ELI5 "We want to promote greater build diversity but we are greatly constrained by the reality of this meta."?

How does shifting 100% crit chance needed to 150% crit chances needed increase build diversity? It literally just means you have to invest more and more into crit chances which limits build diversity.

If the 100% crit chance cap stayed the same now instead of HAVING to run a crit chance cloak you could run a Damage, or RoF, or resistance, or Crit str, instead of having to push for SI on every slot you could try and get some extra shielded, composite, reso mods, it opened up more options of viable OLs, it opened up a wider range of augs that could be viable since prioritizing crit chance was no longer required to hit ~130% crit chance.

Shifting the crit chance scalar to the right literally does nothing but require more investment and limit build diversity, it doesn't make non-crit builds better or more viable.

[junior blaze]

So the reasoning behind it was exactly what I said it was in the other thread, and the effect is going to be exactly what we've all said it was going to be; it's going to drive people to increase their crit chance rather than seek out other dps stats.

and it just solidifies my opinion that the change as a whole should have been saved for T24 instead

[upper hollow]

It makes to jump from T21 to T22/T23 content harder. Imo T22 was already not really achievable at T21 investment for most classes. Skills really need to not be locked behind squad content.
I guess a heavily invested T21 might have a chance now as the power scale vastly outpaces the crit resist with investment.

[slow nymph]

Quite a few nerfs all around - which means that the Neuroforge update will really have to CARRY -- which means NBing will be even more of a requirement

Really really dull idea

So without investing vast sums in neurobounding, everyone can expect significant dps reductions lol (also FAR WORSE DPE as Heat weapons are far worse now)

[upper hollow]

Outside of some of the class rebalances this is true.
Those probably require setup and gear changes to optimise regardless.

[slow nymph]

Well, I know that this change is yet another steaming shit taken on top of swarm bot builds

All heat weapons are severely nerfed now - and so they must be NBed to compensate for the nerf

On top of crit hit chance bullshit

[upper hollow]

Hilariously it's not, effective dps and sustain and survivability are way up. Cost to achieve that is up orders of magnitude though.

[slow nymph]

So I guess devs got what they wanted which is to force NBing on everything

[slow nymph]

Yes, the cost being orders of magnitude higher is the point

And no, the crit hit chance + heat DPE nerfs

mean that even perfectly modded swarms would only really barely compensate

Unless you use shit gear that you can mass neuroforge

Sigh, disappointing as always

[upper hollow]

Are the changes to Beam weapons going live with rework? I don't think I've seen that in the dev blogs.

[uneven estuary]

Yeah they're going live with the rework. That information will be included in the patch notes for sure.

[upper hollow]

You know how many ships and bots you're going to overhull right? idk what you can do to really prevent that but we probabaly need a little more than a day notice.

Just a little note of like, "If you are using any beam weapons under 350 range on assets please throw them in the trash."

[fierce mural]

Yeah my fwing overhulled lmao

Bots should just inherit 100% and get an inbuilt damage nerf or something

[waxen cliff]

All controlbots just have -stats instead of +stats lol that'd be hilarious

"Figure this math out nerds"

[stiff saddle]

Damn so this patch really went from "mod rework" to: "lets just blow up everything"

[fierce mural]

Honestly if every one of them had something like -30% damage added on and then bots inherited 100% skills it would be fine, because you can just calculate the new augmods onto your existing F10 while you're in the bot

[upper hollow]

God save any class without main ship skills I guess.

[fierce mural]

I guess yeah

SD bots would be insane lol

They already are

[uneven estuary]

I'll add a note to the post

[cosmic ferry]

Lots of work to do on all my chars and bots after this update goes live 😵

I will remain optimistic though.

Please tell me yall gonna release this away from reset so we’re not all stuck at our computers for a week straight building and reorganizing every asset we own.

[red rain]

Ideally before reset. It'd be worse after.

[upper hollow]

Ideally well before reset? With the last week being effectively dead and this change impacting so much it could dramatically change next uni planning which should be starting for most in the next week or two.

[red rain]

Universe reset 4 week countdown won't be announced until patch date is set.

So enjoy bonus time.

[upper hollow]

Genuinely thank you. That helps settle a bit of anxiety.

[red rain]

I don't mean 4 weeks after patch either. It just won't be bang bang

[slow nymph]

Yep... brilliant isn't it? Certainly a rework that everyone asked for......

[upper hollow]

Yea, I mean Uni reset would have been like either the 9th or 16th of Nov, so I knew there would be some extra time already.
The big thing is just we'll need some time to actually engage and invest in the system as the immediate effects will make most characters worse. Trying to deal with that while in reset mode is pretty harmful.

[fierce mural]

4 weeks is decent time... I think that's enough for me to get used to the changes

[upper hollow]

Oh we'll be lucky to get 2 weeks including dead week.

We're already on borrowed time and the mod rework doesn't have a date yet. Even if they announce the date today and it is 2 days out we probabaly won't get a full 4 weeks.

[cosmic ferry]

Glad yall are pushing for release before reset thank you ❤️

[upper hollow]

Still waiting for someone to explain how this increases build diversity and doesn't just force more investment into crit.

I do actually want to see some good examples of how this benefits player experience and allows for more viable build compositions.

[fierce mural]

Has anyone tested bot DPS? Gunner and SD looking good, maybe too good.

FC I'm worried about, but maybe NF tinkering your bots will get them higher?

[red rain]

I really want to see seer tbh

And ranger

Those are the barren reports currently

Other then EK goating anyways

[fierce mural]

lol

I did some number crunching with him

Gunner bots are currently the most OP thanks to Marks

I think he wanted me to share the chart with you guys later

[red rain]

I appreciate his transparency

Let us know.

[fierce mural]

Not sure if it will spawn a huge convo here so I'll do during meeting later today

That it goes into your dev channels, but ofc can be mirrored into a thread here

[waxen cliff]

Any reports in how FC dps feels after NF Rework?

[upper hollow]

It'll require them to mod all bot equipment to hit 150% crit rate if they previously scaled crit.
Non crit centric builds like Yuugh's zebras would be somewhat impacted I imagine as they had some crit.. but idk how much and he is gone now.

[fierce mural]

I'm a fan of the zebras too. Not full critty at all, though

I think only like 70 or 80?

[upper hollow]

Overall it is easier to get Trans/compact on things, you can enhance extended on expanders and your existing mini gear might still work in some spots for LF bots.
You don't scale crit from NF specifically, so depending on your existing investment and gear bindo rolling gear shouldn't be more than a couple hundred bil per bot to optimize DPS.

The loss of 1-2 gyro mods fixing mobility will be the biggest hit on effective dps, modding to correct that is going to be tough.

[fierce mural]

You mean extended on expanders?

Not capacitors

btw

Can we be real

Who is gonna use rewired on capacitors

[upper hollow]

Literally no-one, it's too lossy

[waxen cliff]

Do fighters crit?

[upper hollow]

Quick before and after on hull space post change.
Not sure where I would have lost max hull from

[waxen cliff]

let showstatsources show us the way

[upper hollow]

Cap mod is identical

oohh, it's prolly the Twisted harbor

[red rain]

yeah I was going to say why is hull different

oh no

extended is currently bugged

and gives size

known issue

Just fyi

[upper hollow]

ok, cost me 92 bindo and a dozen or so accessible dupes and 1 harder to get dupe
Before:
Critical Hit Chance: 1.773192
Critical Hit Strength: 2.99750
Damage: 10.207752
Rate of Fire: 5.577932
After:
Critical Hit Chance: 2.567898
Critical Hit Strength: 3.99750
Damage: 10.031780
Rate of Fire: 5.436232

and hullspace

That is with a TML in there already, so plenty of room for other weapons

Bot's should be fine, it's just gonna cost a few hundred bil to fix them like I said before

50% crit res dummy:
Post-rework bot
Pre-rework bot
Pre-rework t18 bot

Same bots no crit res dummy

See how crit res does nothing after you invest another 400B or so into NF rework

[junior blaze]

it's almost as if it just forces you to stack more crit

[upper hollow]

SO I changed my controlbot and OL, I changed shield charger too, but I didn't need to.. it something I'll instantly do post rework though so meh.

Now if I didn't have to hit 150% crit I would have changed my cloak, shield, radar, charger, expander, OL, probably energy (depends on where I landed for OL), and a super item.
Honestly I would probably change aug setups completely and maybe even the bot base.. however, since I have to invest 400B just to get my current bot back up to standard all that is basically off the table.

[upper hollow]

I also could have left some of those things in place and tried to bindo for more survivability, mobility, utility (hull, stealth, radar, etc).

I mostly just have a bunch of wasted crit chance for T22 and below content.. but I didn't lose dps, I'll still gain a fair bit, I just also won't lose dps against T23 content.

Unlike weapon types where you swap your weapons for specific bosses or content, you're not going to be swapping your entire mechanical build design from 100% to 150% crit as you change content... it's just impractical as the gains you could get from that swing just aren't significant enough for the cost or frankly the time.

[lethal dagger]

Well one thing I noticed. Is my already super constrained hull space got even worse with the massive laser size increase. Weapons are already huge for most normal ones as it is.

[uneven estuary]

Just wanted to give a heads up that there was a pretty significant issue with Ranger's Grit, instead of distributing the damage over 30 seconds it distributed it out over 12 seconds. True Grit should feel a lot stronger now.

I also made some adjustments to the Gunner Targeting Computers, and locked bots to only be able to use Bot specific ones. You can find them in the Lyceum AI base.

[slow nymph]

good question

To the devs: will there ever be a change that doesn't directly or indirectly gimp bot swarms? Is it still a desire to completely eliminate them as a playstyle?

These wide-ranging nerfs forcing the need to invest hundreds of bils PER bot to get mods just to COMPENSATE the losses is yet another needless hit to swarms

[lethal dagger]

i am curious as to why such an extreme size change for the seer locked lasers? and i assume other ones like them.

[uneven estuary]

They were getting an inappropriately large amount of size reduction for being short range, while still being marked as REALLY BIG in our internal tools.

When something is marked in one of the bigger size categories it gets big DPS bonuses and DPE reductions, in exchange for its size increasing significantly.

In the situations where small shorter range laser beams got bigger, it was frankly an abuse of the design tool and we did not want that abuse to continue.

Going forwards, Small weapons are going to be Higher DPE in exchange for DPS across all weapon types and not just Projectiles like it was.

[fierce mural]

There was a good case for small but strong sidearm type lasers. Fleeting Strikes and Kalthi Planetary Demolisher were part of that archetype.

But now they're giant while still having short range lol

Actually I was considering using them with mod rework but the size increase kinda screwed that plan

[red rain]

Yeah we can make actual side arm lasers that are category small now

[craggy urchin]

Yea I’m kind of questioning right now was the change because it was “inappropriate according to internal tools” or did you come to the conclusion it was also “inappropriate in gameplay”? Because as it stands right now it looks like some just became worse options to longer range weapons

[uneven estuary]

It was inappropriate in gameplay too

Because there were these really high DPS weapons that worked just fine if you were able to get right on top of something, and high DPS weapons are generally ALWAYS good in situations where you can get rid on top of something and guarantee you're going to hit. Think of things like Vervs.

[fierce mural]

That's kind of a feature of the weapon. Like a pocket pistol. Tiny but still very strong.
I think it would have been ok to size up a bit, but not from like 58 size to 310

[lethal dagger]

yeah, a 500% size increase is insane. the seer lasers went from 30 to nearly 200.

[fierce mural]

Now all the lasers are in this same 200-500 ballpark and are primarily distinguished by range and dps.

[lethal dagger]

and to lose damage too

[uneven estuary]

We could have prioritized size on them, but they would have had significant DPS decreases and we didn't think players would tolerate that.

Spent a long time (literal months) going back and forth over it, and we are very certain we couldn't do that

[fierce mural]

Honestly if you can stick to your target and verv you should be rewarded for being in good position. Though, I can understand there may have been a case to argue against a high tracking, short range, high DPS laser. At least the KPD was a low tracking laser, Fleeting Strikes can scale to 180 very easily with scoped and kalthi tracking skill. Though, its short range made it unpopular. It's even more unpopular now since I can't even go and use it as a sidearm with the new changes!

[craggy urchin]

For some of these weapons their small size are the only thing that makes them appealing over some way bigger variants (say seer’s overunderminer vs titan mining laser)

I would also never use fleeting strikes if it wasn’t for its small size, the dps isn’t that high and range limits its usability

[lethal dagger]

yeah, the size was more important than dps.

it was a dph type weapon

it took a insane investment into RoF to even get a hit per second

[uneven estuary]

We can look to make individual adjustments to weapons going forwards, I don't mind working with ya'll after the Neuroforge drops to tweak things.

[red rain]

The flip side is excessively giant lasers also went down in size

Which will open a stat space that hadn't been utilized for our larger hull classes

[fierce mural]

lol, Operative Crushers

[uneven estuary]

TML/ATML/etc.

Gigo Lasers, stuff like that.

[fierce mural]

TML was regularly utilized

Quite popular

ATML was definitely niche.

Too damn huge!

[lethal dagger]

honestly i have seen recently that most of the good weapons are space hogs

[fierce mural]

Well, combined with the increased "baseline" for PU (now 10 with Shards of Empowerment), hull scaling up with tech level, and BIS augs and gear offering +capacity%... you naturally minmax towards those larger weapons

[upper hollow]

That Nuli Wave though

Fleeting Strikes/Faded Omega Laser comparison is hilarious.
Faded Omega is Exotic, but is also T22, so idk where on the sheet that compares to a T23 rare.
But the Omega is now smaller, has more dps, better dpe, has 4 times the range.... so you're trading all that for some tracking?

[lethal dagger]

hmmmm, would making more tech level versions of the seer weapons make it easier to scale better? on size damage etc?

[craggy urchin]

Just use an ATML, I'm already using 2 of them on my LF even without the size reduction

[uneven estuary]

No, if you want smaller weapons we could give you a way to turn them into a smaller one but it would have less DPS and more DPE

[upper hollow]

Because Range isn't a limiting factor at all, it's not like that's a stat that on it's own makes or breaks a weapon.

[uneven estuary]

If you're being sarcastic I genuinely can't tell btw. I'm assuming you're not serious but its hard to pick up via text.

[upper hollow]

how many Luminous Discrete Oscillator Cluster are in use on live?

[lethal dagger]

how much of a drop in damage would be needed to say get them to around 100 size?

[uneven estuary]

Only an admin can easily and effortlessly get that info. I can get it through them, but that's not something I can just share. What are you trying to say?

[upper hollow]

Despite that weapon having a fairly insane stat stack on live I can't say I've ever seen anyone trying to utilize them to any effect, and their size just nearly quadrupled.
Think if they had even say the range of an Emp Divide (already a tight squeeze in may setups) they might get used a bit?

[uneven estuary]

Maybe? They'd go up in size a little for being longer range, nothing significantly drastic. I don't know.

Its possible

[uneven estuary]

Can you give me a specific weapon?

[upper hollow]

The Caress was largely only used because of the insane mods, I guess we'll see if it's size being quadrupled impacts that.

[upper hollow]

How about a Caress?

It was 109, how much do you need to nerf it to get it back there?

[lethal dagger]

the ones i was specificaly talkign about, was seers over underminer and seers searing fire.

[craggy urchin]

See this is the problem, the size difference looks insignificant for the amount of range you get

In fact you can't just ignore this, the faded omega is literally smaller and better in every way except tracking like Dorian said

So there's a fundamental flaw in how this was thought out

[junior blaze]

how much stat weight does tracking even take up?

[uneven estuary]

Lower tracking is a pretty hefty DPS increase

Its a very hefty DPS increase

[junior blaze]

so quite a lot then

[uneven estuary]

You're just not going to land as many shots with a lower tracking weapon so we compensate you for that.

It seems like what you're saying Tenshi is that lower tracking doesn't neccessarily matter, you can land your shots as much as you can with a higher tracking one?

[junior blaze]

for some classes (like seer and ranger) that can line up shots out of sight tracking is not a hugely valuable stat

but alpha damage very much is

[uneven estuary]

I think its a fair call out to say a very short range weapon with higher tracking doesn't make much sense

If Fleeting Strikes had lower tracking it would be more DPS than the Fallen weapon

[uneven estuary]

If we made it 145 size it would go to 549 DPS/1593 Damage and if we made it 87 size it would go to 445 DPS/1112 Damage.

[craggy urchin]

It matters to an extent. I'd say it has diminishing returns, because as a player you can compensate for less tracking by simply aiming better :'D

90 base tracking is more than sufficient if you are mobile enough

[junior blaze]

at least decombobulator didn't increase in size 🥹

[uneven estuary]

I'm willing to shift a couple items stat distributions around after patch gets ironed out and we put out any fires. Just remind me post Neuroforge. We can touch a couple weapons and then I'll see if its ok with the team.

[lethal dagger]

thank you.

[waxen cliff]

That and tracking matters less the further away you are from your target due to how a tracking cone works.

4x the base range gives you a huge space to hit targets in front of you if you draw a 440 range circle and cut out a 19 degree slice it'll cover more effective space than a 110 range circle with a 90 degree slice

Oh and it is 5x the weight

[open grotto]

tracking is also one of those filler stats that have been used to pad the difference between the meta augs used today and any alternatives, everything from the Selenite to Desistance Augmenters have significant tracking multipliers to make 19 degrees negligible

[upper hollow]

Probably not likely in the wild for a while on most items... but this is sorta an issue with Exalted

[grim dragon]

It's only able to offer you one possible option? that's weird

Why would that be an issue with exalted

[upper hollow]

I think it is something weird with the rates of multi-mods

[grim dragon]

Yeah seems like some bad logic

[red rain]

Hmmm

Oh

I changed logic

It's probably a client update issue

[upper hollow]

I must say the options get a bit confusing on them too when you can add two, remove two AND change the enhanced mod, so it's like 5 changes all at once. I think I got my first one of those like 3 NFs in and it was pretty hard to tell what was happening.

[fierce mural]

lol I got 1shot on test again. I am not entirely sure what it was.

I just saw a giant -7.4mil transference damage

Too bad no video evidence, can try to replicate

[red rain]

O.o

Just randomly?

[grim dragon]

probably while fighting as a gunner launching missiles

[fierce mural]

Yeah idk what it is

I just know it was transference damage because I was watching my shields, and then when I saw myself die, I quickly darted my eyes to the center of the screen. The only thing that could have one shot me was the strange "-7,4" I saw that was in cyan, and had significantly more digits than every other damage number I saw lol

Gonna try to die again and see if /showpain gives me records

Yeah idk I couldn't get a missile to kill me

iirc jechtz fixed it a long time ago

[red rain]

Yeah that was really early and may of been unrelated.

[fierce mural]

I still don't understand why LFs are so tanky in this game while capships are so papery

That Lucerne lmao

[red rain]

They're not even tanky. Their resists are pretty poo poo. Just overpowering regen

Pretty sure Hober was looking those over.

[fierce mural]

Man I was firing ctrebs into it

[uneven estuary]

I mean, the reality is that some content designers made the DG AI in KD super regen heavy instead of being really scary damage wise. I tend to prefer scary damage over constant regen/tank personally.

Maybe we'll shift it around a little at some point, who knows.

[lethal dagger]

Yeah. Some ai will regen their full bank in like a second.

[stiff saddle]

One thing I disliked a lot yesterday was that when presented with multi-mod options, the order would go +-+-, or -+-+ which was often confusing to look at.

Could we change the order to always be either ++ --, or -- ++?

Two more small UI suggestions.

1. Can you add color coding to the mod additions and subtractions in the NF window? Red = removing, green = gaining?

2. In the item preview window on the right, is it possible to color code the mod you are gaining? Like for example, buffered would be in green? A love to have would be if you could also include in red or something, the mod you are losing in the same window (so in the example, forceful would be in bright red with some signifier that i'm losing it)

[red rain]

Right now it's seperate rolls displayed in same window. Down the line. Possible

[red rain]

First part idk. I'll have to look

2nd is not

It's displaying the actual mods on the item as if it had it

[stiff saddle]

Ahhh so its like: 1 roll is - forceful + buffered, the 2nd roll is - overclock + scoped?

[stiff saddle]

I figured that one was probably not possible, but if we could add the ++-- ordering and/or adding color coding to the NF window that would go a long way for overall clarity

[red rain]

I'll add both of those on backlog. The color part might be easy. Might not

[slow nymph]

Sorry, can you please confirm if centred will be completely invalidated by any kinda DOT?

[red rain]

Yes

Damage is damage

We will keep an eye on it post release

[stiff saddle]

Thank you for looking into it!

[slow nymph]

Damn - and can I ask, do fire extinguishers enable after 15 seconds out of combat, but still taking DOT?

[red rain]

10 and yes.

[junior blaze]

Do they actually work? Fires seem to keep ticking long after I leave combat

[red rain]

They do. It's not instant

[junior blaze]

after being out of combat for 10 seconds, I know, but it doesn't feel like they do anything at all, even when ooc for a while

[uneven mango]

Are Ranger bots able to benefit from True Grit and use Ranger Scopes?

[red rain]

Ranger scopes will not be allowed on bots. (Still needs code)

I don't recall for true grit

[open charm]

Just FYI, but even the best fire extinguishers do barely anything to reduce total damage taken by fires. Something pretty meaningless like 10-20% iirc. And if you have any significant amount of fires on you this also costs an unreasonable amount of elec to do. This has been the case for quite some time.

Likely something borked with the fire's hit points if I had to guess.

[red rain]

It's all factored in to prevent run away ooc instant clear memes. Docking is problematic tho

[open charm]

Well instantly clearing them is for sure not a problem currently rofl.

[junior blaze]

should fires really continue ticking for up to a minute or more after combat has ended though?

it's worse in pvp because they appear to keep you in combat which renders extinguishers (and panels/chargers) useless

[open grotto]

It depends how many fires are on you and the hidden stats of those fires

Exterminators (which are what fire extinguishers are) destroy them at a conditional rate

Better if there was a stat we could get to improve that process

[junior blaze]

it's usually zerks and SDs using heat weapons, they can build a lot of fires in a very short time

it's why SDs typically use burning blossoms

[open grotto]

Would be nice if the grit mechanic that removes DoTs when the source was is destroyed was universal to all dots

[open grotto]

are these new default skins for the empyreal ship line?

all the AI look really cool

[cosmic ferry]

thats weird

[red rain]

That is wierd

Is it full mods wise?

[digital goblet]

Show the whole neuroforge 🙄

[red rain]

Yeah. We need to see it all to really figure it out.

[cosmic ferry]

yea its full on mods

[red rain]

Oh you know what. I bet I know.

[fierce mural]

It's the additional mod roll, right Jechtz?

[red rain]

I doubt it. It only rolls if there's space

I'll try to reproduce

[fierce mural]

@red rain

     Resplendent Nullifier Edge: 0.660(+)
     Celestial Nova Core*: 0.10
     True Grit: 0.30
     Zen of Ranger: 0.50

Why does the OC Nova Core give me shield recovery?

[red rain]

EK already in my dms

No need

[fierce mural]

The shield with OC is also applying it

But I'm sure he told you

Anyway sorry for redundant ping

[red rain]

Np.

Wait

Isn't it supposed to with shields

[grim dragon]

Shield with oC applying shueld recovery is working as intended

[fierce mural]

🤔

Wait so it gives a multiplicative shrecovery aug stat, not boosts the base value by 10%?

Huh

[grim dragon]

Oh hmm, it should be like lives OC

Thats a good call out

[fierce mural]

I misinterpreted OC on shields the entire time, I guess.

[red rain]

On live it does that. I wasn't thinking

[grim dragon]

Check ur stat sources on live.

[red rain]

I hate OC

Literally doesn't want to work right

I swear I've fixed it at least 10 times

[fierce mural]

huh

M51 Benefactor mod: 0.1650
M51 Benefactor mod: 0.1650
Shield Boosting: 0.60
Zen of Shield Monkey: 0.50

This is my shm on live

Two OC Benefactors

OC is great but seems like it's adjusting the wrong thing

[red rain]

I'll go poke it again

[rapid beacon]

I think something with the weapon slot check broke

(On live, you're guaranteed one weapon slot on >0 weapon slot ships)

[rapid beacon]

Also, not related to neuroforge, but something periodically instaheals you in matriarch right now on test

It eventually stops, but I'm not sure what causes it

[red rain]

What does this mean?

[rapid beacon]

Normally, even if you stack all sorts of negative weapon slot sources (expanders, augs), it won't cause a ship with weapon slots to have 0 (or negative) weapon slots

[red rain]

That sounds like it was a bug - Jeff redid weapon slot code due to new mod only doing half a slot.

[rapid beacon]

It's probably related to that, yeah

[red rain]

I don't think we want a world where you can add negatives and get a positive without negative working but I'll check with team

[grim dragon]

Is this happening consistantly? Like you see it happens once per try

[rapid beacon]

I gave the zerk matriarch solo another try and it happened again, yeah

The instaheal bug stopped in the last quarter of the fight this time, I think it's something to do with the overwatcher

[grim dragon]

Ok yeah. It looks like an inverse overflow

[open grotto]

What's happening to liberty now that bot research is being removed?

[red rain]

what are you talking about?

Do you mean Combat Bot Tweaking?

Its not being removed. It still does other stuff.

[junior blaze]

^

it still boosts speed and mobility

[red rain]

For bots. Yeah. Gives speed, thrust and turning.

Its just not mandatory

I like how it is now much better

[edgy stump]

its going to go from get as soon as possible if your using bots, to good but get when convenient

[open grotto]

Oh ok so nothing's happening to the zone itself, and combat bot tweaking is still going to give some stats to bots

Got it

[junior blaze]

yeah, still gives speed, turning and thrust, just not skill inheritance anymore

[fierce mural]

My BPCs can't keep up with my Gunner bc they don't go fast enough when I OBA lol
They need MWC23 too!!!

[uneven estuary]

maybe they should just oba when you oba

[fierce mural]

Hopefully in the right direction

Because bots spin around all the time

[tribal wadi]

right round?

[fierce mural]

Like a record, baby

[edgy stump]

the problem is what is the right direction?

[fierce mural]

Indeed, what is it? Because with +turning tweaks you can curve your OBA

Do they just aim towards your velocity vector?

What if the bot doesn't have +turning either

High dependence on low-control assets

[edgy stump]

which would likely be bad in combat as it would move the bots into combat and gettign hit more

[fierce mural]

Yeah they always try to face towards a target while prioritizing being leashed

[upper hollow]

Does MFing composite weapons work?
In playing around with it I seem to only get one extra shot, where because it is a mod it should be proliferated to all shots.

With a single composite enhance no MF I get 2 shots, with MF2 I get 3, with MF2 and Berserker Classic I get 4, with MF 3 and berserker classic I get 5, with MF 4 and Berserker Classic I get.....5, so that seems busted already.

But because this is a mod each shot should be inheriting the additional shot no? So with Composite enhance, MF3, Berserker classic, I should end up with 8 shots? because it is 4 and each should be a double shot? If it doesn't work that way then why would someone ever take that over something like Forceful or Overclocked that does actually apply to all shots?

Also, what does the extra shot at reduced damage actually mean? I'm not seeing any appreciable damage difference between the shots.

Also, it seems either SI or Overclocked on weapons reduces the damage delt by some small amount that is not documented.
A naked weapon does more damage per hit than an SI/OC weapon.

[red rain]

Composite is currently bugged with interacting with mf

It's not actual mf on composite. It's an extra shot that evens out to a modest damage increase.

It doesn't double shots

It's just one extra shot

So if you have mf3 it's just mf 3 with an extra shot.

So it'd look like mf4 but it's not mf4

[red rain]

It's total that's reduced

But again bugged with mf currently

[upper hollow]

So it doesn't apply to all weapons like other mod would making it bad for any MF application and it doesn't work at all if you're already MF4 with classic or MF5.

[red rain]

It scales fine

It's just bugged right now

It shoots 6 with MF5 (but 6th shot overlaps with first)

Again it's not mf

It's extra shot with a dps nerf. Should even out to roughly 5 percent dps

[upper hollow]

Watching the number of hits with show damage I was getting 5 3 or 4 weapons equiped and a composite weapon.

[red rain]

It's bugged.

Jeff is working on it.

[upper hollow]

Ok, so if I'm MF 4 with Classic and a Composite weapon the expected behavior would be:
2 hits at reduced damage (more total than 1 shot)
4 hits at standard damage

[red rain]

No. Total is reduced

It's evens out always to 5 percent increase dps

Reduces the damage of your other shots

[upper hollow]

So all 6 shots should show less damage, but there are 6 instead of 5?

oh wow.. and even on non-MF the hits don't either both drit or not, it calculates the crit individually

[red rain]

That's how it works on live

Isn't it?

[upper hollow]

Composite doesn't exist on live?

[red rain]

We re not aligning our communication here. I'll let you know when it's resolved.

[upper hollow]

Any idea why a SI/OC weapon does less damage per hit than a modless one?

It was only like 21 damage out almost 100k, but that seems unusual

[fierce mural]

Feature creep, but me and EK were debating on whether to build items or not with the upcoming rework.
Random thought came to mind: What if builds using modded items as components could store the amount of mods that were used as input and then roll that number on the finished item, up to max?

[cosmic ferry]

I’m holding off on building stuff due to built stuff having mods after the release

[fierce mural]

I'm ok with building stuff right now that I know will become fodder, but some things I'm deferring, yeah.

[red rain]

Selecting the right item was a huge problem. That's why you have to strip them before you can input

We talked about maybe something like that with builds but to get mods you need to NB and NB can't be materials. It's a bit awkward pull. We decided against that.

And it'd be a bit op cause it's easier to get lower quality materials

[fierce mural]

😦 Can we go back to 4-5 mod fishing on at least built stuff. This just makes higher quality/expensive built gear weirdly potentially worse than a well modded previous item if you can't beat the mods or fit it.

[red rain]

What do you mean

Building gear has the same rates of mods as dropping as long as t20+ and rare or highier.

[fierce mural]

From my understanding, you guys (devs) want to incentivize using the highest quality gear. The thing is, players treat quality as stat spreads and not objective upgrades. If my blue item is better than my exalted due to mods, and it's going to make exhorbitant cost to enhance/NF the Exalted item, gearing becomes a massive investment. Especially now since bindo only rolls 2 mods.

I can understand a low mod roll for greens and even blues (though I would disagree, 3 or 4 for blues since some are very rare and other expensive BP builds). But on Exotic and Exalted+ items especially ones in the end game that are built, feels horrible to only make concessions on 2 mods rather than before when you could get 4 or 5.

I wish we had a socketing system instead so we could transfer our socketing, but we're stuck with NF now.

[red rain]

The goal is to allow for progression and move away from low quality spam to be the only way to reasonably get mods essentially devaluing high quality gear unless god rolls on first roll. I would not phrase it as incentivizing high quality gear but allowing greater entry for most and allow for more reasonable chase for high end.

[fierce mural]

...yeah so higher quality items should roll more. They'd have a higher floor than lower quality items.

And consequently a higher ceiling, but with greater investment

[grim dragon]

Higher quality items literally do roll more

[fierce mural]

Is it changed?

[grim dragon]

Not by bindo spaming, but from spending item copies

[fierce mural]

Can you roll more than 2 on higher quality

[grim dragon]

And likewise have a higher enhancement ceiling, get enhancement faster

[red rain]

We also dramatically improved the algorithm for mod chances over the last few weeks to prioritize adding mods the less slots you have open via NF.

[grim dragon]

Yes you wont have a better exalted item then your rare item(that you spent 30 item copies on) with your first exalted item copy. Thats okay.

[fierce mural]

Eugh. Impedance Shells and Total Eclipse Pavises are a pain.

I guess it depends on that faster enhancement power

[grim dragon]

Matrirarchs gear table is just too dang big.

[fierce mural]

It's twofold I think. Saturation for Matriarch, and low rates.

[grim dragon]

And we are going to be doing a pass to make bindoable items more common soon, the afformentioned loot project ive noted a few times.

[fierce mural]

Alright. So how far out is mod rework now?

I feel like I'm in limbo

[red rain]

Weeks

[fierce mural]

3 or 100

xD

[red rain]

Before reset

[fierce mural]

Alright. I just... want some timeframe. Feels like I'm taking crazy pills rn just waiting for the anticipated meta shake up.

[red rain]

Yeah volunteer problems and bugs makes that hard.

But I understand

[cosmic ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-but-i-want-it-now-gif-26307521

Anticipation is killing me 😂

[open grotto]

That's probably the best we're going to get timeframe wise

[junior blaze]

Question: does composite on weapons increase the damage of the lesser shot or just the weight reduction if neuroforged?

[red rain]

Composite gives extra shot for a rough increase of total damage by 5 percent. I believe it makes all the shots the same but I'm not sure.

[junior blaze]

I'm just trying to work something out currently on the disparity between my healing values on live/test

ah, I think I might know the source

[red rain]

Probably crit resist

[fierce mural]

Slightly unrelated but I noticed bounce weapons do not inherit projectile velocity from the initial projectile?

On test

[red rain]

Is that different?

[fierce mural]

Yeah the "main" shot that starts from the ship inherits projectile velocity% bonuses, but the bounce projectile is slower

[red rain]

And it does on live?

[fierce mural]

Does not on live

Most notable if you tweak with a Shelling Focus super (the Ruined ones that give +pvelo%)

[red rain]

Then sounds like not NF related.

Cause its the same on both

[fierce mural]

Sorry, wrong place to put this then. I wanted to report that behavior when I was testing the Empyreal Bombard on my Gunner

But I did think it would be relevant to put in with NF update as a general change.

[red rain]

Ah lol. Yeah goal is strictly to fix bugs, major design issues and get this out. Bounce already strong and desirable so not really a deal breaker ATM.

[fierce mural]

Some ships are fast and/or small, so since player bounce weapons don't really track unlike Dem Delly's, the speed would make a difference in actually being useful.

It's obviously really OP between two targets if overlapping or close, but the case is rarely there (or at least very brief)

[junior blaze]

nah, I was just wondering why my healing stats were somewhat lower than on live - I think I inadvertently got rid of a few SI rolls while playing about

[uneven estuary]

I'm not sure bounce is strong and desirable atm, but we definitely will try to look at it after neuroforge.

[junior blaze]

another quick question since I'm testing ranger, do all three ranks of true grit stack to give 60% damage soak?

[red rain]

It's not really a soak

[junior blaze]

well, wording aside

do all three ranks stack to give 60% of incoming damage conversion to a parasite, I mean

I thought it was just 20%, but it's kinda difficult to test on test without a second account or something

[red rain]

It's 60

At least for now.

#1296919119240761415 Is our current ranger thread

[junior blaze]

wew, that's spicy

cheers

[red rain]

@upper hollow Composite should be fixed with MF

[upper hollow]

Cool, I'll check it out, ty.

[junior blaze]

Is composite on weapons meant to only give its extra shot if that mod is neuroforged?

it'd be a shame if so, but I can understand it

[grim dragon]

Thats right.

[upper hollow]

Naked, 5 shots , 488,565 damage
Composite, 5 shots (bugged), 430,015 damage (should be 6 shots for 516,018)

or is it just not updated yet?

[grim dragon]

Its updated

How many impacts do you see in show damage?

[upper hollow]

because the bug where it was giving like 150% dps increase looks to be resolved, but it still not allowing for a 6th shot

[upper hollow]

it's in the screenshot, 5 for both

[grim dragon]

Ok thanks

Seems were closer, can you check one less weapon

Mf4

[upper hollow]

yesir

[grim dragon]

Ty

Also for what you are seeing, seems the damage equalization that composite does is happening without giving that sixth shot

[upper hollow]

Looks to be working with MF 3 (4 shots with Classic), the composite gives the 5th shot.

[upper hollow]

The damage between MF3 and MF4 with composite is the same, it is not reducing the damage an extra amount for the 6th shot you don't get.

[uneven estuary]

Looks like Composite with 5 shots is reducing the damage of every shot but not giving you the extra shot.

[junior blaze]

fair enough

[upper hollow]

MF3, with composite and classic: 5 shots, 86003 damage per shot
MF4, with composite and classic, 5 shots, 86003 damage per shot

The composite mod is just not doing anything in this test case

[upper hollow]

I lie, it is reducing the damage, just not giving the extra shot. But the damage reduction is the same between MF3 and MF4

MF4, Classic, 5 shots, 97713 damage per shot.
So yes, composite is reducing your DPS quite a lot.

[grim dragon]

@upper hollow ok last question, what about MF 0

(Im no where near a pc or i would check)

[upper hollow]

hilarious'y was just testing that anyway. I get 3 shots with teh single comp weapon. 2 with a Naked

[grim dragon]

Ah right, can you take off ur zerker skill

The extra shot one

[red rain]

Classic Bersker

Might be extra shot for free

Causing poop

[upper hollow]

yea, getting MF4 and no classic could be a challenge

[red rain]

Oh you don't need to do that

[grim dragon]

Just MF3 and MF0

With and without enh comp

(MF1? MF0? Idk what to call it best)

The correct answer is single fire but

MF is more fun

[upper hollow]

MF0, composite, 2 hits, 53905 damage per hit
MF2?, composite, 4 hits, 80629 damage per hit

[red rain]

why did you put 2?

If you don't have berseker classic

[upper hollow]

I guess maybe I'm getting confused, MF1/MF0 I was considering the same thing

[red rain]

Yeah MF2 is MF 100+

[upper hollow]

1 weapon, composite,2 hits
3 weapons, composite, 4 hits

[red rain]

That's better

XD

What's baseline without composite.

[upper hollow]

The number of hits has always been correct until you hit 4 weapons equipped with classic, it should give you 6 but looks to be hitting the hardcap of 5 hits

[red rain]

kk

I see.

[upper hollow]

the damage adjustment though might be weird, checking something

nvm, it's all good. just didn't realize how big a jump going from 1 weapon to 3 would be for the damage per hit.. but it makes sense now and appears to be working correctly.

The dps increase is trending higher than 5%, but I'm guessing it is getting other multipliers like crit str.

[red rain]

But still bugged with MF4 (3 weapons + Classic shot) / MF5 (4 weapons + classic shot)?

[upper hollow]

No, only with 4 weapons

[red rain]

kk

Does it fire 6th with 5 weapons?

[upper hollow]

I think there is a hardcap of 5 shots somewhere, I bet without classic, if I used a two tongue to get 5 weapons equiped it will also be bugged

[upper hollow]

I'll check

[red rain]

There is a hard cap MF5 but composite should go above it but I think both classic berserker and composite likely both use the same system and both can't add extra shots at same time.

That's my guess

[upper hollow]

5 weapons, 5 hits
5 weapons composite, 5 hits

this is without classic

Adding Classic at that point also does nothing

6 weapons also is capped at 5 shots regardless of classic/composite

[grim dragon]

How are you getting 5 hits without classic?

[upper hollow]

Two Tongues

[grim dragon]

Gotcha

[upper hollow]

From my understanding the desire is for MF (not the number of shots) to be capped at 5, which with Classic and Composite would make the total number of shots up to 7?

Or is the intesnt to cap the number of shots, or is it to cap MF at 4? It's all a little unclear with the verbiage.

[grim dragon]

No. Classic still only goes to 5.

[red rain]

no.

[grim dragon]

With only needing 4 weapons

[upper hollow]

So the intent is to hard cap at 4 weapons with classic and 5 weapons without?

[grim dragon]

Composite takes that to 6 and theres no way to go passed 6

[red rain]

only composite would bring it to 6 with either (4+Classic or 5 weapons with MF5 (+400))

[upper hollow]

So you're not limiting MF or number of weapons, you're hard capping number of shots... that's really unintuitive.

like, how do you explain that to a new player?

[red rain]

You're thinking about it backwards.

Classic Bersker is Multi Firing.

Composite is not.

Multi firing is capped at 5

it just allows one less weapon via the skill

[upper hollow]

Am I? These sure read the same.

Multifiring allows additional shots per weapon equipped, Berserker classic gives you an additional shot just like composite regardless of weapons. You can get 3 "shots" with 1 weapon equipped, ie not multifiring.

An the "Extra Shot" provided by either can't currently be a 6th shot.
From the "intent" of the description (5+) it sounds like shots are separate from MF.

That's what I'm saying isn't intuitive.

So like with this my +MF is 522, meaning I could have up to 6 weapons equipped.
Composite should always add 1, Classic reads like it should also always add one.

A cap on MF, would mean I can only get up to 400 to equip up to 5 weapons for effect, plus composite/classic.

So what is being limited is NOT MF, in fact, MF as a stat should probably be hardcapped at 400 as the intent is that no class should be equipping more than 5 weapons and getting benefit right?

[upper hollow]

ooh, that's weird phrasing too, if you're firing 3 weapons, and have classic that is 4 shots, if your main is composite does that count as a 5th for the RoF decrease?

hhmm, with just a Composite weapon and Classic the F10 shows x3v

[upper hollow]

F10 seems to think Composite is an extra shot and it does nerf your RoF

So the composite uses more elec and does less DPS. fun!

[upper hollow]

This is 3 weapons equipped + Classic for the x4 and with composite for the +5

[upper hollow]

confirmed it wasn't limited to Zerker.
Firing 5 weapons without zerker, composite also doesn't give the extra shot.

There is also a REALLY weird interaction I accidentally found.. I doubt it is worth vesting much time into, but if you have 5 weapons equipped, 1 composite and 4 other versions in a stack, you dock, unequip the 4 identical ones, then undock and shoot.. it fires 6 shots the first time then goes down to two.

Hilariously they are all scaled with the composite damage reduction.

[upper hollow]

ok, more composite/MF weirdness.. this time Seer.
The Seer Remodulator: Next "weapon discharge" guarantees a critical hit
It in fact does not make the "weapon discharge" crit, just the first "shot" of MF/Composite

This may be intentional, idk if you were trying to make non crit heavy seer with low recoil a thing, or how this is supposed to interact with Seer bots that are potentially MF.
"weapon discharge" reads like I'm going to get a big crit, when for MF/composite it does not scale and that is in no way clear.

[grim dragon]

Seer remod and MF is a known issue.

[upper hollow]

This is a particularly big deal for Composite as in most cases a 'half crit' is going to be less damage than a true crit without the mod so it is once again diminishing the composite mod.

[grim dragon]

It isnt intended. All of a seers MF shots composite or not should crit.

[open grotto]

With all these bugs, might as well remove the extra shot from composites

Nobody's going to miss a 5% DPS increase anyway

[fierce mural]

Get overclocked and you spend less energy for more DPS iirc lol
That extra shot is very expensive

I tried composite enhanced on my BPCs and they DRAINED

[upper hollow]

Composite is for big single shot, so Ranger mark stacking, Seer burst, some Zeker stuff.
There is enough things with resist tweaks that being able to 1 shot is useful at times.

But yea, overclocked is always better dps/dpe.

[lethal dagger]

Little question about ranger. Is the damage that shows up in parentheses the additional damage due to ranger mark etc?

[grim dragon]

Yes

Thats your echo damage

[junior blaze]

small thing, but I noticed on test the lyceum base is still called Sniper Armoury 😛

as are many of the class super devices

[grim dragon]

Heh, i dont want to point any fingers but there was a sniper to ranger rename project that wasnt quite able to be finished. Itll be apart of our post patch cleanup as its not a big deal

[junior blaze]

fair enough

[lethal dagger]

Ok cool. Was playing around with it some yesterday. That damage boost felt quite nice.

[grim dragon]

It can be incredibly powerful if utilized well

[lethal dagger]

Yeah I could see that. With some updates to my setup I was deleting stuff with the echo damage.

[lean bay]

He's being nice here @junior blaze that's 100% my fault and something I need to fix 🙏

[junior blaze]

smh no holibobs allowed

[open grotto]

did Centered get changed back? why was is reverted?

[uneven estuary]

I explained at the end of the video btw, but it was bugged

We plan on readding it once we fix it

[snow venture]

probably already getting fixed but just in case

[grim dragon]

No actually, where is this happening

Well, it may get incidentally fixed

But id like to be able to reproduce to check after the fix is done

[snow venture]

matri, for some reason one of the parasites started healing

[grim dragon]

Yeah same situation im trying to reproduc, ty

[grim dragon]

@snow venture wondering if you can try again later today and see if its happening, i havent quite been able to reproduce yet