Please fix Wildspace resources -- We all know its a problem

[violet gyro]

Gals are super underwhelming now. Low resources. New factories seemed like a cool addition until I realized they are being forced by low resources in every gal. THIS IS NOT FUN.

Please address this. Put resources back how they were or 3/4 of what they were. Keep the new factories. Make excotics better, like closer to special gals. Also fix special gals, make them exalted instead of exotics.

this is not it

This just makes it not as fun to build anymore. When 1 you have very low resources and 2 every other planet has 0

I dont mind the condensed resources, some of that is nice but something is messed up

this is the part of the game i love, please fix

Base building is VERY time consuming. Making changes like this just feel not good and not worth my time to build, im sure others feel the same.

I know yall want to push this decayable stuff for activity. That is fine. Keep the same baseline. Make the active(decayable) stuff much stronger. So if your active you benefit alot but if you aren't as active(use the old factories) you can still function and enjoy the game.

DF 333...... 2 planet gal

Resource extraction scan of [Paradise]:

Adamantium: 12
Metals: 1044
Silicon: 611
Space Oats: 18

[calm fox]

DF is mostly meaningless beyond T1-3 chances in new Wild Space and the moons are going to have alot of the resources concentrated. The quality is going to determine the largest part

[violet gyro]

I see.

Still, something isn't right.

Or more so, i dont agree with these changes

[calm fox]

Yeah just clarifying a small part.

[violet gyro]

oh, i gotcha. all good ty

[latent jacinth]

I'm also not sure if unique (which are also exotic) gals like paradise/dorado that we've seen so far should have such low resource yields like these

[calm fox]

It was a known thing before release that the unique gals were subpar - we ran out of time. We're looking into ways to make those gals more interesting beyond just stacking T0s in them to the ceiling.

[latent jacinth]

I imagined because the termites in these gals would've been stronger than last uni's (the termites in these unique gals last uni would've been the equivalent to rare termites, as w3 gals), it would've been justifiable to keep the resource amounts for unique gals as high, if not higher

[violet gyro]

i want normal gals fixed before the special tbh

how can a new player even build

like someone who only has 1-2 accounts

with termites,etc how can they even extract enough to make it work

actually, lets not get into that. im spiraling here

something is broken - please fix lol

commods are messed up. condensed planets aren't that great

am i the only one thinking this??

Maybe you can weigh in on this. @mossy aurora @grave zodiac when either of you have time! Thanks

Another thing::::::::: Gals are now HARDER to keep then they use to be. Cost more to keep cuz of termites but commods are way less. I dont understand

Give back old commod structures please and keep new reveal and gal rarity

Point above. Aja is on his own team. I had to help him own his gal because it was difficult for him to get the mats needed. Nukes.

He had to let it go because he couldn't supply. 2 accounts.

Imagine people with 1.

@dry gust sorry for the ping, but if you get some time, wouldn't mind if you could weigh in on this as well. Thanks!

[violet gyro]

Examples of normal gals not long ago
Resource extraction scan of [Berman]:

Adamantium: 4
Copper: 13
Metals: 836
Nuclear Waste: 2116
Psion Icicles: 8
Silicon: 2188

Resource extraction scan of [Belnia]:

Atmospheric Disturbances: 15
Copper: 18
Laconia: 6
Metals: 1737
Nuclear Waste: 1694
Plasma Crystals: 4
Silicon: 355
Space Oats: 376
Vis: 16

Resource extraction scan of [Deucalion]:

Baobabs: 108
Dark Matter: 2
Fermium: 4
Metals: 3393
Nuclear Waste: 421
Petroleum: 24
Psion Icicles: 6
Quantumum: 3
Rubicite: 4
Silicon: 2439
Space Oats: 710
Titanium: 67
Vis: 17

Resource extraction scan of [Salinger]:

Ablution Crystals: 8
Alien Bacteria: 4
Atmospheric Disturbances: 20
Baobabs: 63
Copper: 17
Enriched Nuclear Material: 8
Metals: 3802
Nuclear Waste: 2221
Petroleum: 70
Psion Icicles: 6
Silicon: 1559
Space Oats: 182
Titanium: 18

Resource extraction scan of [Kohala]:

Baobabs: 330
Gold: 3
Metals: 3271
Nuclear Waste: 1127
Petroleum: 13
Platinum: 1
Silicon: 2069
Tin: 64
Titanium: 48
Vis: 52

Resource extraction scan of [Pragmatic]:

Ablution Crystals: 25
Atmospheric Disturbances: 50
Frozen Blob: 4
Jelly Beans: 16
Metals: 1979
Nuclear Waste: 1503
Psion Icicles: 6
Rubicite: 10
Silicon: 1213
Silver: 13
Vis: 13

6/22/2022

I appreciate the response. But i feel it’s very necessary.

As in, no announcement has been made so

How was i supposed to know

And underwhelming reveals keep happening

Additionally, I’m being completely pleasant and not rude as well. I say this because, I’m just bringing attention to the matter and not raging

That’s why i added details as well, to support my statement

[muted cipher]

Nukes are also generally exceptionally low.

Theres enough to sustain actually holding galaxies, but not a whole lot beyond that to actually build things

But the cost to build things hasn't been adjusted at all

So we're in a sitatuon where for builds (like IC gear) there is just this enormous deficit of nukes / fusion cells.

[grave zodiac]

I don't know what lunarion means here, I also missed the meeting last night, but there is no evidence that any of our math is wrong. The issue was space oats and baobabs but that was fixed.

[muted cipher]

Seems like either the extraction rate of nuke ex should be bumped back up to closer to other T0 extractors (currently like 1/2 or 1/3 the rate?) or fusoon cell requirements for things like extractors, IC builds, etc. should be dropped.

I imagine it's not the math that is wrong, but rather than starting assmption of what a reasonable number of resources (particularly nukes) is.

Having to build out galaxies nuke slots to hold them is all well and good, but doing that while also trying to gather nukes to actually build things is punishing.

We're literally just gathering nukes in EF layer this uni rather than wildspace.

[grave zodiac]

So boiling down all the long windedness here, can we just say that generally they are not enough nukes to own gals and do most builds that require fusion cells?

[muted cipher]

Yes.

[grave zodiac]

Ok

I don't think I have too much else to say rn. I'll talk to Enk.

[muted cipher]

🤍

🦿

[violet gyro]

Thanks @grave zodiac

I added as much info because normally it’s asked for.

It’s either, we need more info. Or no that’s too much info! 😂😂

[grave zodiac]

I would really love some quick spread sheet math cause that was help my case, traveling this weekend so I don't have too much time to do that part :p

[woeful shell]

I caught the edge of it myself, was it only space oats that was the topic?

[calm fox]

And babs. Yeah.

[woeful shell]

I apologize then, I thought the discussion was more broad than just those.

[violet gyro]

In general everything seems lower. But the only huge problem is nukes.

[grave zodiac]

Nukes aren't 'broken' just uh, we may have squeezed the orange a bit dry

[grave zodiac]

It's more so that the resource are spread more evenly, the non nuke totals are actually pretty similar to previous unis

[violet gyro]

.

Hard to see that with 1k and 2k gals but i see what you mean

[muted cipher]

Spread more evenly but requiring 14400 fusions per galaxy means less nukes available because you need to own more galaxies to get those nukes

[grave zodiac]

100% gotcha on the nukes front

[muted cipher]

Jeo: Napkin math.

Typical 'decent' galaxy right now seems like around 300 nukes, 1500 metals.

With T16 fusion extractors, the upgraded factories, and maxed ExE, covering every slot (usually unrealistic because you get marginal planets a lot that aren't worth it) that is:

97,000 fusion cells a day
486,000 steel girders a day

Take off 14,400 for the galaxy ownership, and you are at 82,600 fusions a day.

IC gear builds require 25 fusion cells per 40 steel girders, so I'm at a deficit of about 220,000 fusion cells a day to actually continue those builds.

Or to put another way, assuming we're not just 100% set up from the get go:

With T9 extractors and regular factories, that's (after ownership control) netting:

24,480 fusion cells / day
194,400 steel girders a day

For covering every nuke slot in a 'decent' galaxy. 1/5 as many available fusion cells to do builds as we have girders, with the ratios you need them in.

[grave zodiac]

Can you show me a scan of a gal that has marginal nukes SOBs? That should be very unlikely especially in rare+

[muted cipher]

Resource extraction scan of [Slippery Ford]:

Bacta: 1
Baobabs: 256
Metals: 782
Nuclear Waste: 153
Petroleum: 19
Silicon: 548
Silver: 60
Space Oats: 48
Titanium: 16

Just scanned this common tier for instance.

153 nukes is only 5000 fusion cells / day available, with t9 drills, covering all nuke slots in the galaxy. (Available meaning after owning the gal)

[pure granite]

do a scan of Labrador Sea, my exotic gal

[grave zodiac]

With what ExE level?

[muted cipher]

using 7.5x bonus which is max iirc

Ok sorry should be 7.6x (close enoguh)

Resource extraction scan of [Labrador Sea]:

Atmospheric Disturbances: 24
Baobabs: 248
Diamond: 5
Fermium: 3
Metals: 3201
Nuclear Waste: 481
Silicon: 2343
Silver: 89
Space Oats: 867
Titanium: 34

Labrador sea, an exotic tier galaxy (not sure why willywonka had be scan it)

But looking like pretty much the number ratios I said above, but this is a high class galaxy so metals and nukes are both 50% up from those.

[grave zodiac]

Yeah sorry I meant individual sobs I know what those scans look like

[pure granite]

because I struggle with nukes in there (due to nukes being on planets and I have to put 1 CA base on them, somewhat different yet related issue)

[grave zodiac]

You implied that there may be nuke SOBs you would want to ignore because they were subpar

Like individual moons/planets

[jolly canopy]

Ok, lets adress 1 problem at a time. It takes X amount ofcnukes per dayvto hold a galaxy. There are Y galaxies in wild space. Did the dev team check to make certain thecnumber of nukes extraction points was X * Y * 1.5?

[calm fox]

Rend, please don't.

[grave zodiac]

Every gal (besides paradise lol) can 100% be owned using exe expert character and t9 extractors with just the resources in it.

[violet gyro]

Yet, nukes are still a problem

[jolly canopy]

Why not, this is something i specifically asked you about when the new system was proposed and is a basic cross check of your systens playbility.

[grave zodiac]

Sure I'm simply responding to rend about ownership

[muted cipher]

Well it comes down to seeing what willywonka says though Roh. You can't aclways make use of every slot for various reasons. Including trying to profit off the galaxy with CA kits, that take up ExE slots

[violet gyro]

Oh, my b

[jolly canopy]

Ty roh!

[muted cipher]

If you have to take all nukes at all costs, that bumps you off of having multiple viable colony planets.

[grave zodiac]

Sure, so just saying that's a bit different then saying the SOBs are not worth putting extractors on

[muted cipher]

True, I may have mispoken to some extent there.

If you are only looking rare - exotic, that is likely true that most/all are 'worth' building om.

[grave zodiac]

Anyways, that napkin math was generally what I was looking for, however I do think we should do similar math assuming you escaped the non ic extractor phase

(Which I know, is hard)

[muted cipher]

Can you explain what yo umean?

My math was there for t16 fusion drills and for t9 regular drills

[grave zodiac]

Ah OK, so yeah 82k per day

That should be pretty doable in rare and up

[hollow night]

I have done some simple calcs a few unis ago (should been afte the nuke extraction nerf) that you need 62 T15/16 nuke extractors at max EXE to hold the claimer, most gals only have like 200, say 1/4th is for a CA, leaving 150 to extract, 62 to the cnc, 88 for builds and colonies.
5 colonies take ~34 extractors worth.
Leaving 4.3m nukes a day for IC selling and builds. Thats 14k fusion cells.

[grave zodiac]

Rares and up have more then 200

[jolly canopy]

my question again is why the baseline was lowered instead if widened. I know WS gals used to have enough planets in them forctwo full accounts at t9, becouse that was the standard for years. The gals i am looking at in wild space have 2 to 3 planets for a grey, 3 to 5 fir a green, 5 to 8 fir a blue and 8 to 12 for a orange. I would need to take 2 or 3 systems just for my main character if im using greys.

[grave zodiac]

Uncommon and below, yeah your supply is more so like that

[muted cipher]

You can escape the non-IC extractor trap by having Goofy build on every nuke source in earthforce layer for us to gather fusion cells. But uh, that shouldnt be the generally recomended strategy xD

[hollow night]

Also more colonies, and expected to have a bigger impact for IC sales and prods

[muted cipher]

Anyways my main concern is that the ratio of available girders to available fusion cells is off, considering build requirements havent been adjusted

I'll stop here.

[grave zodiac]

I'd also expect that builds requiring both that your limiting factor is nukes, yeah

[hollow night]

I would say, 150 slots for common, 250 for uncommon, 400 for rare and 600 for exotic atleast what we should expect

[grave zodiac]

Sounds about right tidbit, so we have a bit more then your previous assumption

[hollow night]

Yeah, things are a little more complicated

[dry gust]

I just want to pop in and thank everyone for the productive conversation so far. I’m going to let Roh continue taking point but I’ll stay tuned in

[muted cipher]

my uncommon is 180 😛

[hollow night]

1 of mine is 188

[muted cipher]

Anyways us arguing about what the average number per rarity tier is is retty pointless because presumably Roh or someone on the dev team has those average target numbers to hand easily anyways.

[jolly canopy]

Again, i specifically asked when the consumption system was proposed if ALL galaxies in ws would be self sustaining. The overwhelming majority of ws galacies are uncommon teir orbelow, this slams the door on amy new teams going to wild space.

[hollow night]

I think I got a rare with 250 or so

[jolly canopy]

So lets try this again, does ws have enough resources that most galaxies, regardless of teir, are self sustaining?

[muted cipher]

Every galaxy except paradise has sufficient nuke slots to sustain the ownership kit with t9 extractors, according to Roh's prior statement in here, and scans I've seen.

Just not a whole lot beyond that in many cases.

I'd basically just finalize with:

Having a resource that is required for ownership also be a core resource requirement for many builds & galaxy profit, makes for an incredibly awkward balancing excercise.

[jolly canopy]

Ty

[muted cipher]

Long term just replacing it with 'copernicium' you have to extract from planets to sustain ownership (with appropriate ammounts of it spread out), and has no other use. With then nukes balanced for builds. Would make more sense and be easier to balance without unintended consquences.

[violet gyro]

WOOOO. Earthkeeper.

That sounds nice.

easier to balance.

that works all ways too.

[muted cipher]

[Obviously don't maintain copernicium with a 0 second halflife if you do this haha]

[hollow night]

I must confirm, the gal I thought had no nukes in it, does barely sustain its ownership with t9 extractors, leaving 535 fusion cells spare a day

[muted cipher]

Does kind of end up being an awkward way for new players to get into wildspace building when the 'easy' galaxies they are supposed to claim, actually require more-perfect allocation of ExE kits in order to sustain ownership.

[spiral thorn]

I'm building for the first time in like 13 years and I found the nuke supply in my galaxy downright frustrating, especially with the C&C eating the amount it is per hour.

[muted cipher]

Having the 'extract copernicium' for ownership method, you could put MORE copernicium in the low teir galaxies (and have it 'cannot leave galaxy' tag), so that low-tier galaxies are actualyl just straight up easier to own and defend.

Then exotic ones have less copernicium per SoB, so require more effort to own, but have more regular resources.

[grizzled compass]

You saying there's more nuke sources than you originally thought?

[muted cipher]

Decouples the nuke rarity and build requirements entirely from ownership issue, makes low tier galaxies easier to own, prevents the whole 'shipping fusions cells from EF layer to feed wildspace'

[jolly canopy]

Since no one bothered to update the wiki, what is the per hour consumption, im on truck so no wifi.

[hollow night]

Yes, in a 2 planet gal, I thought it had none

[grizzled compass]

Where did you find them?

[hollow night]

Moons, both sources

[violet gyro]

yep.

[hollow night]

Another option, can we scale fusion cell consumption with rarity?

[muted cipher]

I think having an ownership-only commod you have to extract, makes everything cleaner. But that would help.

[quaint sequoia]

Having a completely new commod needed for owning galaxies seems the best idea

Metals etc used for initial ownership build, fine but then sustaining ownership should be separate

[muted cipher]

You could even call it Earth's keeper

Because it keeps the earth owned by you

[grave zodiac]

I actually have to catch a couple flights today. Thanks for the feedback though and I will read whatever I miss

[muted cipher]

Have fun

[jolly canopy]

Got numbers from eos, ty eos.

please point to where my math is wrong. 100 fusion cells every 10 minutes, is 14400 fusion cells a day. Thats 4.32 million nukes per day. With no EXE bonus and t 9 extractors you would need 864 exteaction points per system to make that work. Even if you had exe 20 you would still need 160 nodes per system. Are you certain all systems in ws have 160 nuke nodes in them?

[spiral thorn]

It is not even worth considering any of these situations without ExE

[grave zodiac]

Yes

I am certain

[jolly canopy]

New players jira, on a new team. Ive seen people do WAY sillier things.

[spiral thorn]

I don't mean it shouldn't be possible, by the way, I just think building without ExE right now is a waste of time due to the nuke scarcity.

[calm fox]

ExE is viewed as required.

[grave zodiac]

At least for ownership if you don't want to use EXC or don't know about it. You don't have to own the Galaxy

[jolly canopy]

Ok. I am in complete earnest with this question jechtz, why?

Lets say someone wants to do 2 colo 1 STM and just run colonies off whats laying around, why should that be prohibited by the basic distribution of resources itself?

[mellow fox]

Does this not make it basicly punative to claim higher DF gal as all it gives then is stronger termites aka higher chance to lose shiz?

[grizzled compass]

DF controls how likely you are to get rare resources

[calm fox]

And it also has stronger roaming ai that attack stuff

[grizzled compass]

We are not completely getting rid of the effect Danger Factor has on galaxy resources. It will still affect the distribution of tier 1-3 resources (Petroleum, Diamonds, Adamantium, etc.), DGs, wild AI, and prospecting nodes. None of these things is affected by quality. Danger Factor also affects a few small details like the number of asteroids or resources in an asteroid belt.
https://www.starsonata.com/blog/dev-diary-refined-reforged-patch-part-2/

[calm fox]

So slight give and take

[hollow night]

Its not really, but most should be

[grizzled compass]

Make sure you check the moons

[hollow night]

154, thats the moons, 0 on the planets

[grizzled compass]

Yes, you are right. 154 is not equal to 160.

[hollow night]

But seeing as lvl 3k is easy to get for p2p. I would say we can assume exe 30

[grizzled compass]

You're going to see the lower limit being around 140-150 tbh

[jolly canopy]

Ok, since we have established that 160 is a reasonable minimum to pay for ownership, can we perhaps consider moving this lower limit up by 20 nodes please?

[pure granite]

I am simply wondering why the nuke allocation has to be on the absolute darn minimum possible. why make this a pain point? seems like a very strange arbitrary difficulty to impose on builders

[muted cipher]

Afaik the logic is that they want us to be required to actually semi-exploit galaxies in order to own them, not just sit on a kit and not use the galaxy. Need to have a few ExE kits down.

Hence requiring something to be extracted in that galaxy to keep ownership. Which was chosen to be nukes. And therefore nuke abundance is reduced to a relatively-low amount, to prevent you just taking one good nuek galaxy and owning half the uni off it.

But everything else that requires nukes to build is a casualty of this system.

[violet gyro]

Is this something that will be hot fixed potentially? If deemed a big enough issue. Similar to babs and oats.

You fix nukes. A lot more people will build. It’s too difficult in its current state.

[silk quarry]

A certain amount of effort required to own a system is good. A lot of people are building where they see fit, trying to grab good galaxies. Maybe I dont understand the numbers but I think coping with the changes as a player base is challenging as the way it was before isn't conducive to the transition. Though connection to team space isnt required anymore, I highly encourage it... You have to be like usa except the oil is nuclear waste, survey, "secure", and settle.

[grizzled compass]

It has not been established that 160 is a reasonable minimum, that is the minimum that you think is reasonable. A few more levels of ExE, or higher tech extractors, would reduce the amount of extraction slots to within the 140-150 range. I don't see it as being unreasonable to have to acquire more levels in ExE.

[grave zodiac]

Babs and oats were fixed because they were bugged.

[pure granite]

All my ExE are level 27 or higher, all my nuke sources are maxed out (except for one slot unavailable due to needing it for CA. Have to earn back the mountain of cash I have spent on this galaxy). I have enough to keep my claimers fed, but that's about it. building up to a reasonable level of material is taking a loooong time

[woeful shell]

You're forcing players into a gameplay style instead of allowing them to play as they see fit in a sandbox game.

[grizzled compass]

What is the gameplay style we're forcing them into?

[woeful shell]

You have made Extraction Expert a requirement instead of an option for even basic ownership, and gutted an entire trade skill, Station Mastery

By making broad assumptions about the player base, you made it harder for the players who don't fit that assumption.

@muted cipher 's solution is the best one. Create a new commod that can only be found in Wild Space and tie it to ownership. It decays upon leaving wild space, and decays on uni reset.

[muted cipher]

Can even decay on leaving galaxy / be galaxy bound, if one wants to really prevent people from just laying 'claimer' kits and feeding from eselwhere. Which can't be done with the current nuke systems.

And then balancing of 'how much ownership commod should a gal have' is decoupled from nuke supply.

[woeful shell]

And other builds aren't crippled, and players aren't forced to have ExE or be blocked from one of the major reasons anyone plays this game.

[violet gyro]

patch it in

[woeful shell]

I don't mind so much if it isn't galaxy locked, as long as it decays on leaving wild space and at uni reset. Maybe some gals have more availability, and some common gals have none. It's still a strategic choice either way, so long as the drop rate doesn't mean one planet/moon can fuel 5 gals' worth and there aren't any others to replace it

Give the commod itself a half-life, make a factory to make a stabilized version that fuels ownership

[muted cipher]

Far as I'm concerned the mai nadvantage is that they have the flexibility to balance ownership commod abundance as they wish, without affective buildable commods.

[violet gyro]

No half life

Simple

I don’t need more factories lol

Y’all can even make it special

Add something where it extracts from the sun in the galaxy

Easy add in

Just have to make the items

[woeful shell]

Simple enough to start, yeah. Add a half-life at some point if further balance is needed.

[muted cipher]

I dont think so.

a) Harder to code in I imagine.

b) You still want this to be linked to 'you must build some number of ExE kits in a gal to own it', just decoupled from nukes.

[pure granite]

If you want to avoid adding a new extractor etc. perhaps make the generator take steel girders, sentient chatbots and fusion cells at more reasonable rates instead? still causes everyone to have to exploit multiple resources and solar bodies, while alleviating the issue a little bit

[grave zodiac]

Making a whole new resource is not being considered at this time. There's still many levers that can be pulled with what we have now.

Also, I wouldn't hold your breath on anything incredibly substantial happening this universe.

[woeful shell]

In that case, split the cost among metals, silicon, and nukes. Maybe even add in something like the commods that subspace AI drop, if you want to encourage more active play

[woeful shell]

I understand that it'll be hard to fix during live uni, especially with the backlog, but we may want to consider a shorter uni or a bonus of some other kind to make up for it. Periodic extraction rate increases, perhaps 24hr after each new ws reveal?

[grave zodiac]

I'm really really hoping this uni will be shorter then the last 3 or whatever and will be pushing very hard to keep us to that

[woeful shell]

I really think we need to push for periodic extraction rate bonuses. That will help make up for the deficit players are currently experiencing

[grave zodiac]

I will have internal discussions about everything brought up, thank you. This sort of thing is not my decision to make but I can use what was said here in the discussion.

[violet gyro]

Why should we have to suffer for a whole uni

[muted cipher]

https://tenor.com/view/life-is-pain-mask-pain-black-mask-gif-15157421

[grave zodiac]

I will be sure to tell you first if I have any updates.

[violet gyro]

(Didn’t mean that rudely)

I appreciate you discussing with us

[muted cipher]

Either way its really not 'suffering for a whole uni' its 'Suffering since the new galaxy system was put in place without proper consideration fo the economic consequences'. We've just been in varying stages of 'Building isn't working well' for at least a year, probably more.

anyways.

[grave zodiac]

All good. I just want to be clear that, while painful, there aren't any bugs at play here that would warrent drastic measures. I will bring up the points made and see what the team thinks.

[jolly canopy]

Ok, but lets look at that in practical terms. Do you want new players waiting until level 1500 or 2000 to sub, or do you want them subbing at level 1000? No one is going to sub until they have a material reason to do so, the lower the barrier to entry on wildspace, the faster new players will sub the game.

[woeful shell]

Not even that. Requiring ExE at that level to own a gal, for what benefit? You'd need a CA as well to profit off colonies, and have fun moving that much material without MFM.

Requiring an absolute minimum of 3 characters.

[muted cipher]

tbh a lot of the game is set up with the idea that people will have multiple teammates they play with. But the playerbase only barely supports that for a handful of teams.

[woeful shell]

Precisely why I said that broad assumptions were being made of the player base. Not everyone has or wants a team. Not everyone has multiple accounts. Some people have one account, one team of themselves, and shouldn't be locked from doing game activities by default just for doing so. You can run content with other players not in your team. You can't build with them.

I have three accounts, two p2p and one f2p. The rest of my team is made up of f2p and mostly either new players I'm trying to entice to play, or people who haven't logged in for years.

[jolly canopy]

I have asked repeatedly how low the playerbase has to sink before the dev team starts making decisions on the assumption that players will be acting solo. This nukes thing is a perfect example, there is no reason to assume right now that a new player will even meet another teamed player before reaching level 1000, much less get onto a team, particularly mid uni. WS control needs to be based on the assumption that each galacy will be controlled by a solo player so new players who may or may not have met anyone in game have a reason to sub.

[woeful shell]

But even then, I'd need to level up 7 of the characters to 1500-2k just to own a single decent ws gal, with the ways things are looking.

Now, that isn't that difficult to do, with the subspace monthlies. You can get a level 200 alt to 400-450 each month for each alt you have already capable of subspace. I have 3, so it'd take me 3 months' of monthlies to get my 3 lvl 100 alts to 650.

Skipping the entire midgame, of course.

[lone rover]

There are several stages when it comes to ensuring that a game works, firstly, it has to be able to be found and downloaded/installed easily. Secondly, it has to have a relatively easy opening in order to bring players in, getting progressively challenging enough to keep interest, and then it has to have a decently functioning endgame. But who cares about all that XD

[woeful shell]

Should a single player with a single account be able to hold an exotic galaxy by themselves?

No.

But it doesn't look like they're able to adequately hold a common gal, either, without a considerable investment of time, resources, and game knowledge that isn't readily available.

And honestly, my four EF gals are producing quite a bit for me.

[muted cipher]

It's also wrong on t he high end becaue a single player on a single character absolutely can hold an exotic galaxy.

[lone rover]

Yeah but let's be honest, we need to actually ensure that the early game is good so people actually play long enough to want to capture exotic gals.

[woeful shell]

Hold, yes, but can they hold the galaxy AND profit/build with it? Or just hold it?

[muted cipher]

Yes. Can't fully exploit it sure, but can profit from it.

issue is nukes are MORE abundant and more concentrated at exoitc tier than they are at common tier

So counterintuitively its actually easier to hold exotics than it is to hold commons.

Apart from termites, which are a poorly designed system anyways. Somebody joining the game has no way of knowing how strong termites are and hence how well they have to build.

And there's minimal in game hand holding to introduce players to that issue

You just go right from 'Oh, AI don't even dent any base' to 'Omg that termite 1 shot me and my kit'

(assuming low tech kits)

It's a horrible learning curve.

Or cliff I should say.

So yeah, the issues do go way beyond nuke abundance.

But with nuke abundance pushing people away at the mid to high end, and learning cliff pushing people away at the low end, there isn;t much room left to hide.

[violet gyro]

👀

[calm fox]

I would echo what Roh said I wouldn't expect any drastic and urgent measures over next few days as we discuss and weigh both short and long term options.

[violet gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/awkward-gif-18300291

[dry gust]

I’m leading some internal discussions about this. I won’t post updates on this thread but we are going to look at options

[violet gyro]

Thank you Enk

[dry gust]

Hi all, I have an update for you on this. There will be a small patch early Tuesday AM (about 11 hours from now). In that patch is a change to the cost of IC Extractors. The extractors specific to Nuclear Waste have had their Fusion Cell cost reduced greatly (5-10x). The other IC extractors have had their Fusion Cell cost replaced with Sentient Chatbots.

This change should greatly improve the process of building out your galaxies and you should not feel overly bottlenecked by your Nuclear Waste extraction rate at that stage. However, you will probably still see value in using high level and tech Extraction Expert bases on your Nuclear Waste sources, particularly if you are planning to profit from Fusion Cells or regularly build certain endgame items that carry a high Nuclear Waste cost.

I understand that we have made Nuclear Waste a lot less abundant with this universe reset and that many of you have deeper concerns about bottlenecks beyond the IC extractors. Here is some background on how we arrived at the current intervention and what we are considering going forward:

1. We are trying really hard to avoid driving endgame builders into territory that’s intended for new builders. We want to avoid making rapid changes that could undermine that goal.

2. We have done the math on various nuke-intensive builds such as Rudimentary Admixium and believe that they are doable at scale with current abundance, as long as you invest in your infrastructure.

3. We totally agree that nukes are too tight for the IC Extractor costs, leading to frustration in the first week of building. That's why we moved quickly and got the aforementioned change into tonight's patch.

4. We are open to making further adjustments so let's keep this thread going. I just want to make sure it's clear that for many things we really do need to wait and see how things develop over the course of a universe.

[grave zodiac]

@violet gyro 🙂

[hollow night]

Tbh, it looks worse then it is on big builds
You only need 800 T20 fusion extractors running for the whole uni to support 1k rudi admix

It really is just the first few weeks

[jolly canopy]

And there was much rejoicing!

[jolly canopy]

How will this effect extractors in construction at the time of the patch?

[mossy aurora]

It won't.

[jolly canopy]

So they will continue eating fusion cells or start eating chatbots or what?

[mossy aurora]

It won't affect them. Builds copy their requirements to a temporary object that's part of the construction, so that they don't get into awkward states when the blueprint changes.

[grave zodiac]

Which means that yes, the blueprint will continue to consume whatever you started it at and won't be changed with the update.

[violet gyro]

Thanks Enk

[supple spear]

MFW Citadel has 0 nukes

[violet gyro]

They changed stuff. It did have nukes prior to this uni. Kalthi empire apparently stopped using nukes all of a sudden 🤣

[neon shore]

pshh who needs nukes

[calm fox]

Yeah the ai empire HQs are a dropped ball. As stated previously they are lacking and we are looking forward to making them more unique and interesting for future universes.

[muted cipher]

So rebalancing nuke usable for fusion extractors is all great and all, but doesn't address literally everything else we have to build that requires fusion cells and nuclear waste and is now MUCH harder than before because of the combination of claimer fusion cell use + nuke waste rarity

Examples including building IC gear, and rudimentary admixium

Fixing the issue as it current stands literally requires rebalance of every build that requires appreciable nuclear waste.

It's just a bad system to have a commonly-used-build-commod linked to ownership like this.

[neon shore]

we are looking at issues case by case

rudi admix seems to be the main one brought up, but its doable with a large team coordination and fully invested IC drills to do a 1k build fairly easily atm

[muted cipher]

Like the original design of Rudi admix was a (fairly) even distiebution of resources needed.

It's now completely a nuke bottleneck. A typical galaxy will be bottlenecked to the tune of x10-x20 on nukes compared to metals and silicon, for that.

Might as well just make it take only nukes at that stage if that is the goal.

[neon shore]

its a known issue we've been discussing internally

will have more on it later on in the uni hopefully, but until then

invest in those new IC factories, its just straight 20% more ICs lol

[muted cipher]

Already have yeah.

[neon shore]

they swap 1 for 1 with the normal IC factories on exes so its pretty painless swap

[muted cipher]

More aug sink though after we just introduced huge extra aug sink by requiring every exe to be auged, and deleted IC augs xD

[neon shore]

dg aug drop changes fixed that though, you can target farm anything you need

just have to shake the "dging bad" mindset. its incredibly good atm lol

[jolly canopy]

Just so i know whats being discussed, is this bp accurate?

https://www.starsonata.com/wiki/index.php/Rudimentary_Admixium

[pure granite]

No. Just no Lemon. We have discussed this before, but last uni I spent proboably 600-700b buying augs to cover the shortfall of not being able to DG enough / fast enough

Bit of a sidetrack in this post though, sorry

[neon shore]

thats correct. either you dg or you buy augs 😛

someone is doing the dging either way

[jolly canopy]

Ok, but we need to discuss numbers here. I believe standard loadout is 3 range augs per kit, lets sat t20 so 15 kits per account, two accounts is 90 augs total, it takes 4 goods to make a,supirior so you would have to kill 360 df 300 bosses that drop range augs each uni to fuel that.

[calm fox]

It's not

[jolly canopy]

Willy seems to disagree. I remember range aug prices were up there but i am pretty certain they were not over 3 billion each. Which means he bought 200 of them.

[grave zodiac]

There's no "standard" loadout. No single stat or strategy is required. It's whatever works for each person.

Sure the termites do have some range, but they are also constantly flying directly towards the base

they have no code to "kite" the base or fly right at the edge of their range

[grave zodiac]

#stations message here you can see a range-less set up. Does this work? Unsure but there are termite baits made to test stuff exactly like this.

[violet gyro]

bruh

1mil cells

in this climate ????

what

is

going on

https://tenor.com/view/ree-reee-shou-crit-dragon-screaming-gif-24681487

[mellow fox]

Not to bad

[jolly canopy]

I think the major problem here is that nuclear waste extracts at...1/3th the rate of all other commodities? A t 16 silicon extractor will produce 69 chatbots a day. A t 16 treecutter will produce 138 figurens per day. A t16 nuke extractor makes 34 fusion cells per day.

Yes, metals are just as bad but we are not burning those for fuel now are we?

[mellow fox]

Luckaly you aint limited to puting 1 kit and only equipting 1 extractor

[violet gyro]

Just curious, do you build in WS?

[quaint sequoia]

Of course he doesn’t

[jolly canopy]

Do i tell you not to have opinions on EF just becouse you dont build there?

[violet gyro]

You do understand i was genuinely curious if you built there or not, that’s all

Snippy for no reason

[jolly canopy]

Appologies. I am used to people looking for excuses why ideas they dont like are invalid.

I do not at the present time build on wild space since as best i am able to calculate the income i would get is less then the cost of the SPEX nessesary to go, and if i wanted to pay jeff money i would simply buy the SPEX and sell them for credits instead.

[calm fox]

You mean credits* as otherwise would be a violation of the rules.

[jolly canopy]

Yes, credits = in game cash, appologies for any confusion.