the-future

[feral plover]

Like what

Suit upgrades, weapon mods, choosing your health/shields/ammo

Upgrades are a very basic concept in first person shooters. Only rpg-like in the loosest sense possible.

you are constantly upgrading yourself and choosing pathways on a play-style u enjoy

If you want to use the word rpg that vaguely then it could be applied to pretty much all games

[feral plover]

sure but how many single player games actually have u upgrade weapons.

Destiny? Borderlands? etc. Those are shooters with RPG mechanics

[feral plover]

i didnt call doom an rpg. i said it had RPG mechanics

Pretty redundant to point out imo. “Rpg mechanics” can be found in so many non rpg games.

[feral plover]

Ya thats why its called rpg mechanics

Doom is not in the rpg genre. It just uses stuff from them.

Cod rpg mechanics going crazy

I can choose to play with a automatic or a shotgun the entire game much choices

Rpg is a very vague word for a genre honestly most games have you roleplay in some capacity.

Anyways on the topic of runes they’re very meh in NuDoom

There’s like 1-2 essentials and then the rest are very forgettable

[feral plover]

but ur not put into a Role-play setting where the story/single player is giving you that choice

you are playing an Arena mp shooter grinding kills and unlocking attatchments/guns

I can still roleplay however limited my options are

its not an RPg. but it does have rpg mechanics

Which is my point

which is what i said about doom

[feral plover]

that was my point too so what r u arguing for

Because it’s fun

reading is fun

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-perhaps-family-guy-thinking-gif-13587558

[polar owl]

If your definition of good secrets is having to press the space bar while looking at walls I have no words 😬

[solar crown]

Did i say that that is good secret design?

[polar owl]

You implied that Doom 93's secrets were better than eternal's secrets

Which I disagree with

[solar crown]

I'm pretty sure in none of my messages i have said that OG doom had better secrets

Just that in eternal they are fairly sucky

[clever bear]

Eternal’s level design is very “follow a linear path; sometimes there’s a small room or something off to the side with a secret”
Old Doom and also Doom 2016 have levels where there’s a bigger space to navigate with a set of objectives and secrets to find. It’s a much more organic structure.

Instead of following a fixed path, you should have an environment to explore where sections connect in interesting ways and there’s generally more than one way to get somewhere

[feral plover]

i mean the only reason id say old games had this system because there wasnt an importance for enemy placement

Not to mention a “self-awareness” that the player won’t find where they are going. As new as shooters were, the devs didnt need to think abt these kinds of things as we do today.

which is somethin Doom 2 levels can feel like

[feral plover]

taking Wolfenstein’s ways of secrets where u had to just get lucky the wall u randomly space bar’d was a secret

[clever bear]

Doom Eternal level structure is just weak imo. Arenas are too samey and there’s no reason to not just make a beeline towards the next big arena. Also old Doom absolutely takes enemy placements seriously. The encounters are often simple but they do an excellent job of making the environment and enemies work together to pressure the player to make quick decisions and keep moving without getting overly repetitive

Doom 2016 does a really good job of making secrets interesting without having you check random walls for hidden doors. There’s lots of little platforms at the edge of a space where players need to think about how to get there and clearly visible doors just far enough into the shadows or off the critical path that only players who are paying attention will notice

[reef bolt]

Fantastic point molly

[feral plover]

Mostly disagree

I think they could have gone the extra mile to make secrets just a little more interesting to acquire, but overall I do vastly prefer Eternals approach to levels

Base game is very well paced with arenas and maps having unique layouts, gimmicks, and enemies that take advantage of the layout of said arenas

And while this is probably a controversial take I do like that Eternal introduced more in depth platforming

It’s very simple but engaging. Gives you some time to take a breath while also giving you something to do. Prefer it to the janky mess that was 2016 platforming or just walking down hallways filled with fodder.

I think this mostly boils down to what we value in doom though

Eternal hits the majority of the right spots for me with incredible combat, lots of verticality, the most interesting enemies in the series mechanics wise, and challenge.

[clever bear]

I don’t hate platforming, but it’s no substitute for secret areas or placing traps to punish complacency or smaller fights that are tight and claustrophobic. Eternal’s massive fights aren’t so much bad as horribly overused imo. There’s no thought for shorter encounters that use tight spaces or damaging floor or enemies getting an ambush opportunity to get that lethality in a unique way.

[feral plover]

I don’t particularly care about secret areas. Never been a draw for me and I’m not missing them. Little confused about your other point since Eternal does have its fair share of smaller encounters and traps. Tentacles that keep players on alert, admittedly sparse but still present environmental hazards like wall cannons, flames, and toxic/hot ground, and there are a fair share of smaller scale encounters that act as ambushes or surprises. Usually with a empowered demons appearing, or a group of pinkies charging at you in a tight space. You also have the optional gore nests which provide challenges that are usually very claustrophobic and high stress.

[clever bear]

The smaller encounters that do exist in Eternal are usually very poorly designed and do more to annoy the player than pose any challenge

[feral plover]

Most of them are serviceable, with some highlights and some stinkers. I like a few of them, like the floor collapsing under you once you get the chaingun to then be faced with a dread knight or that gore nest that puts you in a room full of specters which is a real oh shit moment.

But the arenas are the bread and butter of the experience here, and eternal just does them so damn well

[clever bear]

Also I don’t count gore nests. Those are not-hidden secrets that are on a timer and give you a mastery point

They’re not integrated into the actual level

[feral plover]

But they are. They’re not a “secret” but the encounters utilize the layout of the levels pretty well.

You’re not experiencing the entirety of what the level has to offer if you just skip them

If you mean that they don’t act as spontaneous ambushes then yeah you’re right

[clever bear]

The arenas themselves are almost always nearly symmetrical with a big center area, some side channels, and occasionally 2 floors, with several waves one after another. Over and over again. That’s an okay arena type to use a few times in the game, but not half a dozen times per level. Hardly any arenas that are much longer one way than the other, or relying on one big wave then being done, or using traps well.
I mean that optional out-of-the-way fights with extremely little incentive to do them feel tacked on and don’t contribute much to the level

[feral plover]

Most of the arenas I can recall do have unique features, hazards, and enemies that do set them apart however. The super gore nest’s main arena has a large swath of lava flowing through the middle punishing players who don’t time their jumps well or aren’t paying attention to their positioning, along with interior cover that protects from aerial attacks while having the downside of being very tight. Like hell almost all of the arenas in that level feel very distinct. Same goes for cultist base as well. A plethora of traps and environmental hazards are placed about in arenas or just throughout the level itself (some for the player some for the demons) that constantly keep you thinking about where you should be positioned and how to take advantage of the environment to make your life easier. I’m pretty tired and can’t really breakdown in depth every Doom eternal map because I’m not familiar enough with the game to do that, but for like 95% of my playthrough I didn’t notice that samey pattern you’re talking about.

The master levels honestly use the map layouts even better tbh, with more dense hordes of demons forcing you to traverse the full scope of the arena to stay alive.

I remember 2016 pretty well since I played it a ton years ago but I am planning on giving it another go very soon. Guess I’ll see if any of my thoughts have changed.

[clever bear]

Lava at the bottom isn’t what I mean by trap. I’m referring to stuff that can be as dangerous as the enemies if not more so if you’re not careful.

[feral plover]

I never referred to it as a trap lol

[clever bear]

I’m honestly not a big fan of arena focused combat to begin with, and Eternal’s arena fights in particular always feel like they’re taking hours instead of minutes to me.

[feral plover]

It’s just a unique hazard. Eternal is admittedly light on actual “traps”, with the wall cannons and tentacles being the only notable ones, but the maps have a lot of dynamic hazards that incentivize the positioning aspect of gameplay. Some improvements def could’ve been made, like those grapple points from TAG 2 or slightly more dynamic terrain, but I’m more than satisfied with what’s there.

And yeah I get it if it’s a matter of tastes

[clever bear]

A lot of it is taste, yeah. Mostly I wish modern Doom had followed the path 2016 set of doing some new school stuff but never straying very far from the core of the first 2 games

[feral plover]

Eternal is easily my favorite doom game atm but I would be down for seeing the series return to classic doom’s approach to level design and combat while improving on puzzles and secret hunting

Has quite a lot of potential to be truly amazing and not just pretty good like 2016 was (imo)

[clever bear]

For best experience, try playing 2016 without runes and not mastering the SSG.

[feral plover]

I’ll give that a shot

Although air control is very tempting

[clever bear]

I think 2016 was largely balanced around playing without upgrades and then they added upgrades

[reef bolt]

Nope

[clever bear]

That’s certainly how it plays at least

[odd marlin]

what goes on here?

[feral lake]

pain

[feral plover]

Pointless debates

[woven siren]

too accurate

[opaque plover]

i think doomguy and the intern should kiss in the next doom game

[feral lake]

Doomguy's too angry for romance

[chilly ferry]

PPFFTT

Doom guy realistically would be focused on the demons rather than love

It’s doom is eternal not love is eternal cmon

[feral lake]

I mean I think it was a joke

[cinder tangle]

He had a family

[feral lake]

but that was before the hell invasion tho

[cinder tangle]

Yea wife and a kid

[spiral moon]

i like how we hear barely anything about them but we hear all the time about daisy

i know it’s because it was all he had left but it’s funny to think he loves his rabbit more than his wife and kids

[elder viper]

To be fair the family thing was never mentioned or brought up till Eternal

Daisy was there from the beginning though 💪

[chilly ferry]

TRUE

The demons fucked over doom guy and killed his pet rabbit daisy

And the demons never heard the end of it from there

[clever bear]

Sure they do. When their ears cease to work from the lack of bloodflow from their no-longer-beating hearts

[feral plover]

Daisy returns as a demon in the next doom game and Doomguy has to set her soul free

[woven siren]

that'd be better than the anthro daisy some people drew

[clever bear]

I’d like to see the next Doom do a bit more of having strengths and weaknesses for weapons that aren’t focused around dps. For example having the automatic weapons blow single fire out of the water for groups of little guys but not bigger enemies. As for differentiating the automatic weapons themselves, they could have things like the chaingun having the rev up time (and mods don’t let you sidestep it) but do much higher damage than the assault rifle. Now you have an automatic for when you have a good idea of when you’re about to open fire, and one for more surprise situations or in between whaling on the big boys. The plasma gun is trickier without resorting to ammo scarcity (which I still think should be a factor on some level), but maybe lean into it being a projectile weapon instead of hitscan and have the plasma shots travel fairly slowly so you need to lead your shots more with it.

[solar crown]

Or have shield be a bit more of a factor to blow up, with plasma being the only one which blows them up

[alpine robin]

I want funny weapons. At least 1.

AKA
Doom 2016 Pistol
Doom 3 Flashlight.
Any others?

[feral plover]

An actual pixelated classic doom 2 super shotgun

-Using daisy as a weapon where she goes mad and eats demons

-Doom guy’s returning brass Knuckle

[alpine robin]

You know I also wouldn't mind a proper game set in the Mighty Doom Universe.

I think maybe a Doom game inspired by the Earth Defense Force series, or by Dynasty Warriors in some capacity could have potential.

Just hundreds of demons at once you have to slaughter. As the ARC

[valid violet]

Crucible sword? funniest weapon

[next oxide]

E 10+ rated DOOM spinoff shooter.

[feral plover]

Doom nerf guns

[alpine robin]

There's probably a wad for that

[woven siren]

abort_m

[mint plinth]

Rumor: id Software is currently looking for a Senior Weapon/Prop Artist which will help them “set the visual bar for weapons, vehicles and industry-leading accessories” So monster trucks in Doom?

If they are putting vehicles in a new Doom game, i hope it isn't the main focus. FPS is always better. Maybe the Slayer battles massive demons inside the Atlan for some missions.

[elder viper]

Hugo said the combat in the next id game would be like a monster truck or something like that though I doubt thats what this is about. Having vehicles in Doom sounds weird to me unless it is an Atlan mech like you said.

Fighting a Titan in one of those would be awesome

[clever bear]

I’d imagine the vehicle thing is more about environmental design or maybe a setpiece

[mint plinth]

for me monster truck may mean destructible enviroments

[solar crown]

It's quite vague so pulling a defenitive answer out of it is setting up easily breakable hopes.

[clever bear]

Yeah it definitely has things it implies but there’s no telling what Hugo Martin did or didn’t mean from it

[short mantle]

We already have "vehicle props" in the current doom games.

Doesnt mean you will drive around in them

[mint plinth]

All we can do is speculate. Doom 2016 was a skateboarder, Eternal was a ferarri. What does a monster truck do that the others don't? Crush shit

Maybe something along the lines of Red Faction.

[reef bolt]

It's toughness over strength

[clever bear]

I would definitely like destructible environments if that’s where they go with it. It would add an interesting tactical wrinkle

[woeful spindle]

new doom game when

[reef bolt]

When you turn 20

[feral plover]

Being bigger, Badder, and fucking Beautiful

[clever bear]

I think the only definite takeaway from Hugo’s description is less emphasis on speed. I’m all for that as I feel the tactical side of Doom was negatively impacted by the extreme speed of Eternal

[feral plover]

id heavily doubt doom will ever go back to a "tactical"feel when every game on the market strives to be a tactical more patient game

A game of patience and hiding behind cover contradicts why Doom is so impactful right now as before for the Boomer Shooter genre. Its why we didnt get a sequal to doom 3 or a Doom 4-like game. These decisions to actually be creative than follow trends are why Doom has grown today.

[feral plover]

and what i mean by ever go back i mean the only Doom game that actually has the player a bit slower paced with Modern Shooter influence. Doom 3

stuff like Reloading, Close corners, and more positioning movement is exactly what Modern Shooters are and becomes slowly less unique as we start to Expect these features. The reason Doom has grown because people who have been playing shooters or have been refused to play shooters because of this recycled formula are finally finding a game that breaks That mold.

[clever bear]

That’s not what I meant by “tactical”. Doom has never really been that. I mean that Doom at its best is fast but also requires you to think critically about what to do and make key decisions.

That’s why I said “tactical side”

In particular Eternal is fast enough that it has to be really forgiving of sloppy play like missing lots of shots and using the same 2 weapons for everything because

1. Chainsaw completely replenishes your ammo as many times as you need with practically no cost for doing so
2. You can completely refill your health and armor in 1-2 fodder glory kills even if you were nearly dead. Being able to heal with glory kills is good, but that’s excessive.

[feral lake]

slow moving, plow through everything

I think it's best not to think too hard on hugo's words

[clever bear]

Yeah we don’t know what he meant exactly. I maintain that they’re almost certainly going to put less emphasis on speed though. Not only would that risk being too similar to Eternal (they really want each title to be its own thing) but Eternal had to make some significant tradeoffs to make that kind of speed playable

[feral plover]

i mean i dont think they mean make every title their own thing

Eternal is just an improved version of 2016. What a sequal is

[solar crown]

You can definitely go more "tactical" while keeping a lot of the speed

It's not like monster trucks are particularily slow either

[clever bear]

I don’t think it should be slow, but Eternal is too fast. Also I strongly disagree with “Eternal is just an improved version of 2016”. 2016 is (minus several of the upgrades being way too powerful) in many ways my ideal Doom game. It’s fast but you can’t just brute force through fights (unless you’re using the game breaking upgrades). While there aren’t many enemy types they have a lot of interesting and unique interactions with different level geometry. Secrets are well hidden, fun to look for, and usually helpful. Incidental combat gets to matter. None of the things I just listed apply to Eternal. There’s also Snapmap, which isn’t a perfect level editor but Eternal has no tools to aid user created content whatsoever

Eternal has more refined arena combat, better enemy variety, and a better balanced upgrade system, but it also ruined a nontrivial amount of stuff imo

[solar crown]

Because eternal took parts of 2016, and improved on that

[clever bear]

It improved in some specific ways but made tradeoffs to do so. I generally don’t like the tradeoffs it makes, in large part because it sacrifices a demand of efficiency in favor of extra speed. Btw Hugo Martin has explicitly said that they try to make every Doom be unique and try to break new ground

[feral plover]

I’m still waiting for most of these pros for 2016 to show up

The only thing I’d agree on is secrets being more interesting. Like finding a weapon earlier is a good way to reward exploration of maps, and the secret levels are super barebones but neat.

But in almost every other regard (besides some select few elements) 2016 hasn’t impressed me.

(In comparison to Eternal)

[clever bear]

2016 does a lot of different kinds of fights competently. Eternal highly overuses the stupid arena format and is really lazy with every other form of combat.

[dull bane]

2016 is harder then eternal

eternal gives stuff like blood punch and extra lives

same with dash and enemy weaknesses

2016 doesnt have that

now imagine if eternal makes a mode with 2016 physics

[clever bear]

In particular Doom 2016 level design lets actual exploration be a thing like in every Doom before Eternal. Eternal just has you follow a corridor that opens into arenas every so often. As far as the actual mechanics go, my only big complaint is that chainsaw regenerating is a terrible terrible design change that makes ammo management effectively not matter.

[dull bane]

2016 made ammo a important thing since chainsaw doesnt regenarate

also like every enemy has either 1 or 3 gas tanks to kill in eternal

2016 had cool exploration

whilst eternal isnt that great

just find a secret wall/passage

also how tf does imp go from fucking dangerous thing to just ammo

[clever bear]

Having superheavies be immune to chainsaw is fine. I just think that players should have to try and be efficient with ammo instead of being able to be as sloppy as you want as long as you can dodge long enough to get health and ammo from enemies again. Doom is about fighting demons, but you should have to fight smart, and Eternal lets you brute force things way too much and most of it comes back to how infinite ammo means that trying to be efficient (something that Doom has historically cared about) just…. doesn’t matter because why avoid waste what you can’t possibly run out of

[feral plover]

but ur forgetting 2016 lacked other things such as enemy weak points, Super Shotgun being incredibly strong, and upgrades that are a lot more “unfinished” compared to Eternal

[clever bear]

I’m not forgetting. I consider those things valid improvements but they don’t quite make up for the hyperlinear levels and stupid regenerating chainsaw imo.

[feral plover]

I dont think the Arena format is “lazy” but more so keeps the player feeling like theres always something to do without having to search for it. Even games like Ultrakill abuse this system of infinite action

[clever bear]

Arenas as a concept aren’t lazy but most Eternal arenas are extremely similar and major fights never happen anywhere else

[feral plover]

and yeah “just find wall = secret” but what other game besides Doom even has secrets that has secrets than just an easter egg like Fallout 3 Vault Boy just sittin on a desk

[feral plover]

yeah but thats also saying Doom 2016 isnt in the same scenario sense you are entering an arena and u cant get out until u finish it

Only difference was the Level all together was a classic doom level design

but u still in some areas entered an Arena and could not evade from those fights

[clever bear]

2016 actually uses arena style fights in other kinds of spaces, which is what Eternal is missing. Like most of the fights in the Foundry are in various atypical combat spaces that push those fights in different directions

Like the gore nest near the molten metal where the combat space is a network of catwalks and hardly any cover. Or the gore nest in a smallish room with another accessible room of similar size connected by a narrow stairwell.

[feral plover]

I mean i believe the reason levels are much huger is to compensate your own movement.

levels have more Gravity lifts, monkey bars, etc.

[clever bear]

Eternal’s combat spaces follow a fairly strict formula of a big middle area, 2 main elevation levels with lots of places to go up and down, smaller channels along the outskirts, etc
Arenas that don’t follow this model aren’t unheard of but they’re far too rare (and the only ones I can remember are In Nekravol)

[feral plover]

From what they were trying to. They wanted to make a gameplay that “Flowed” with the combat and not really forcing your ankle

Which makes sense because of all the features they were adding

And sure ill play devils advocate that Ammo is fairly easy to get with the chainsaw but it does kinda compensate for the player’s movement and enemy damage

[clever bear]

I honestly think that if needing to have infinite ammo is the tradeoff for the faster movement, then I don’t want it. It’s too dumb and makes resource management a joke

[feral plover]

Even stated from Hugo martin level design was the hardest thing to do because of Dash

[feral plover]

i mean i wouldnt say resource management is dead. Sure its dead AT THE END because u have your upgrades etc. But while playing the campaign from 0 you are still managing your weapons sense you are trying to upgrade yourself

[clever bear]

Not really? You get the full powered chainsaw in the first few minutes and it’s the source of the whole mess

[feral plover]

yeah but ok if you get ammo all the time why use any other weapon. Its cause theres still a purpose to use that weapon which is the kind of diversify eternal wants that 2016 didnt really have

2016 you didnt have chainsaw infinitely but u were pretty generous with ammo capacity

[clever bear]

Yeah 2016 gave a bit too much ammo. Making enemies rock paper scissors with damage types isn’t giving weapons distinct purposes though. Distinct purposes come primarily from stuff outside of damage dealing, and Eternal tries to do that sometimes but doesn’t do it nearly enough

[feral plover]

well eternal has you doing Weakpoints, weapon attatchments can do different things for different playstyles, and all enemies need certain ways to die. And at least the demons can put up a fight with the weapon swapping that 2016 couldnt out of unintentional acts

[clever bear]

Stuff like range or special states to apply to enemies or high damage but only under specific circumstances

[feral plover]

its not the most advanced system but it does offer more engagement than 2016

every demon is a “shoot till it dies” and all u gotta do is switch to the heaviest weapon you own thats already loaded with tons of ammo and fire it

[clever bear]

The unintentional quickswapping is from a glitch IIRC, so I’d call using that kind of cheating.

[feral plover]

Eternal is the same concept on paper but there are different qwerks ti the demon that justifies it

[feral plover]

shore but i play quake levels by rocket jumping so idk

[clever bear]

It’s one thing when a bug adds a new aspect to gameplay and it’s another when it completely trivializes the enemies

[unkempt coyote]

Hola

[feral plover]

ye but id say if u can devs should patch it

[unkempt coyote]

[feral plover]

really popular glitches i can remember were either Speedrun Methods or even Halo 2 Button combos

Even fortnite had this scenario of the Double Pump method

[clever bear]

The big changes Eternal made that I like without caveats are that upgrades don’t break the game, there’s more visual variety, and there’s a bigger wealth of enemy types. If they’d done similar level structure to 2016, had more unique combat spaces, and left the chainsaw as it was in 2016, I’d have very little beef with the game.

[feral plover]

Besides level design and maybe chainsaw i dont have a gripe with Eternal and even prefer over 2016

2016’s grim an serious theme is ok but games these days arnt lookin for that theme now

I believe “power fantasy” has been dead for triple A games and most are really intense emotional stories or Grounded gameplay without taking actual risks in its gameplay

Where as eternal it brings back the Imagination or Over the top many gamers would want Lore wise and In-game

[clever bear]

I personally like 2016’s aesthetic more, but mostly because it feels more reminiscent of the series’ horror inspirations. Eternal’s look is fine

[feral plover]

ye but u also gotta remember how many games have a sci-fi scary look

Gears franchise, Even call of duty zombies, Halo, Resident Evil, etc. The industry isnt going away with all these Dark and Gritty themes

[clever bear]

I guess. In particular it reminds me of Evil Dead 2 (the inspiration for the chainsaw) where the monsters are gross and creepy but they’re also kind of goofy

In particular the mancubus. I love how derpy he looks

[feral plover]

he little sewer boi

[unkempt coyote]

Español?

[feral plover]

i failed Spanish for 4 years sorry bud

The next doom game will release when im finally old enough to pay taxes prob

[clever bear]

If the current Id project is a Doom game (not a guarantee but I think it’s still the most likely scenario), then I’d guess it will release in 2-3 years. That could easily be wrong for a number of reasons but I think it’s a pretty reasonable estimate given a lack of insider knowledge

That assumes that:
1- they’re making a Doom game
2- the new game and Eternal have a similar dev cycle
3- they started working on the new project shortly after the release of update 6.66
None of those things are known for sure but they each seem more probable than the alternative

[feral plover]

quake quake quake quake

🙏no quake no cake

No doom no…. Boom

[reef bolt]

Truth

[feral plover]

https://tenor.com/view/wrong-trump-no-not-right-incorrect-gif-16931373

[feral plover]

Ammo’s usually a non issue in 2016 even without the chainsaw

Or runes

Nightmare was kicking my ass but even then I never actually ran out of ammo

[valid violet]

Eternal has more diverse combat but it just has way more of it and doesnt have any single enemy introduction sections like the hell knight in Foundry and Pinky in 2016

also halfway through 2016, the game becomes the easiest game to ever exist with Rich get richer + Siege

[clever bear]

Like I said, certain upgrades completely break the game.

Eternal combat has diverse enemies but the arenas themselves are so so repetitive

[feral plover]

Enemies don’t get a cutscene barring bosses and a few super heavies but I don’t think they’re really necessary either

Most of 2016’s enemies don’t get them either.

[clever bear]

I acknowledge that 2016 has a broken upgrade system. I just hate Eternal’s level design more than I like the upgrade system

[feral plover]

I don’t really know where the complaints about the arenas are coming from since most of them do set themselves apart from each other. Either in layout, environmental hazards, enemy placement, visual flair, or options for movement/platforming. In comparison 2016 plays it far safer. I think my favorite arena so far was in argent tower when you first fight the mancubus, but even then it’s the equivalent to a average DE arena.

[clever bear]

2016 does way more arenas with unique use of space. Eternal arenas use a very strict formula that I described already for the vast majority of its arenas. 2016 is full of arenas with unusual shape or size. Unique hazards don’t really cause much difference in how arena plays for the most part because they all create areas the player is punished for stepping

[feral plover]

Like what exactly? Big flat areas with the occasional large crate or a elevated walkway? Kadingir sanctum and necropolis are the only levels that even comes close to what you’re describing in my experience. Do I have to mention the arena in super gore nest that is collapsed layers of buildings and flesh separated by large expanses of lava, the fight in exultia that takes advantage of floating structures and uneven hazardous terrain to encourage smart aerial movement, or that other fight in SGN that uses teleporters and plenty of prowlers to keep you on your toes throughout?

This stuff is just so much more inspired and engaging then the vast majority of levels in 2016 and they’re regular occurrences in eternal

It’s like we’re talking about different games here lmao

[solar crown]

you are, eternal and 2016

[feral plover]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-oh-green-goblin-no-way-home-gif-24172438

[clever bear]

Here are 3 examples from just the Foundry, 2 of which I already mentioned:
-the fight in two smallish rooms connected by a stairwell with more enemies than would normally be in such a space
-the catwalk fight with no cover and restrictive pathways
-the turbine room with 2 big platforms, a bit of scaffolding, and some space surrounding
They’re all simple but they push the player to deal with very unique problems

[feral plover]

Everything but the turbine room fight:

https://tenor.com/view/stanley-sleeping-the-office-gif-10555880

[clever bear]

I honestly hate big arena battles. They just all blur together and feel like they last hours instead of a few minutes

[solar crown]

sounds like a problem in an arena-shooter

[clever bear]

Also please stop fucking flooding the thread with stupid gifs

[feral plover]

I’ve only used 3

[clever bear]

That’s 3 too many

[feral plover]

What’s the problem

[clever bear]

They’re visually noisy and one of them is of a contender for worst person on Earth.
Anyway Doom prior to 2016 barely did arena combat at all, and it was only kind of a big thing in 2016. The emphasis on big arenas hurts me as someone who loves this series but hates the overall direction Eternal went

[feral plover]

https://tenor.com/view/morbius-intriguing-interesting-jared-leto-interested-gif-26230035

[clever bear]

It would help if arenas would just do 2 big waves and be done so you could actually tell that you’re making progress instead of the game immediately replacing enemies who die for several minutes until a quota of dead demons is met

[solar crown]

luckily they kinda do in eternal though?

[clever bear]

They always seem to go on forever

[solar crown]

you have waves of enemies, to go to the next wave you need to kill some "target" demons which are usually allthe heavies and superheavies, and sometimes fodder

[solar crown]

mix of you not liking them ig and maybe not understanding

[clever bear]

I understand how it technically works

[solar crown]

then why did you even say that 🤔

[clever bear]

In practice it feels like a neverending stream of baddies

[solar crown]

probs just you then, i've only ever seen people describe it as waves
unless it buggs out because of a stuck heavy or something

or tag2 first fountain fight pre rework

also tbf it's quite noticeable it's waves if you die during the arena, you start seeing the patterns quickly then

[feral plover]

Yeah the game does a decent job at letting you know how far you are in the encounter

Only time it goes on and on is sometimes the master levels but like that’s the point

[clever bear]

At the end of the day I still like Eternal but I’m definitely frustrated with several design choices that were made and hope the next game doesn’t double down on those changes

I think the DLC is a lot like what I wish the whole game was. Fights there are hard but they’re also usually short, good secrets are a bit more common, and the combat spaces feel more creative. The TAG arenas also feel better integrated into the rest of the level design

The difficulty curve is weird because of the hammer but both of the main modern Doom titles have also had problems with that

[elder viper]

DLC did not have short fights they where pretty lengthy

[clever bear]

They at least felt short for the most part.

[feral plover]

its kinda easy to know you make progress when the music and heavier demons start to actually die out

[feral plover]

i mean the way i see it. You have issues with something that doesnt feel necessarily Major to the game but just dislike a level design that no longer exists.

[feral plover]

ur also forgetting the reason DLC (mainly part 1) is much harder because you arnt on training wheels anymore

You have to remember Eternal's campaign not only recognizes you played other Shooters and 2016 but also to prepare you for the amount of content the game provides

Part 1 you are already familiar and the only way DLC can stand out is when the game is actually challenging you

And in PART 2 i can only say pipes down because of time restraints. In addition, The hammer may not be very unique but was very cool for marketing and had to make somewhat of an impact

[feral plover]

also im not sure if Foundry is a great example sense i dont think it actually has special level design

you are more so on literal pathways going forward. making Demons appear in front of you just becomes a shooting gallery than actual "tactical" gameplay

Especially with the Catwalk becomes very crowded as you don't wanna fall off but you are constantly bumping into Imps and Soldiers and the occasional Hellknights

In addition i have 0 memory of any verticality within those arenas ever besides like the last Arena phase

[clever bear]

Verticality is overrated anyway.

[feral plover]

why exactly...?

im not sayin every level needs verticality but doom 2016 arenas dont rlly have much flexibility until the later levels

[clever bear]

In particular I respect that they had the balls to put the player in tight quarters and have to earn breathing room

[feral plover]

but the thing is you also cant have the player fight so many demons in tight quarters

Which makes fights more of an inconvenience

The reason i have issues with Eternals level design isnt because they are open. They are Arenas and they do what they are supposed to do. But mainly because i wish maybe theres more environmental obstacles with the Demons fighting with you because every Arena is predictable. Like what if a Huge Laser was in the center of the arena so you the player have to take that into consideration when crossing to the other side.

[clever bear]

I’m not sure what you meant there, but in general “the fight doesn’t use as many demons” isn’t a problem so much as just a thing to consider. You can absolutely make claustrophobic fights challenging by using demon who are dangerous at close range in a carefully thought out way. See also: the 2 rooms connected by a stairwell. That fight has at least one Hell Knight crammed in there with you (I think it’s actually 2) so you have to deal with him quick since you don’t have room to evade him like you normally would

I wouldn’t mind more obstacles. It would definitely make Eternal’s arenas more interesting

[feral plover]

yea but u realize that fight is more like a mini-boss. If this was eternal you would blast his head off and kill him

Its more like a way for developers to draw out time when reality u can defeat him in 3 seconds

and isnt much of a fight just false intensity

[clever bear]

The hell knights were alongside about a dozen other guys

[feral plover]

guys as in cannon fodder

enemies that arnt really a priority. ur not playing master levels where the cannon fodder actually is an issue

[clever bear]

The hell knights were just the highlight
Fodder are actually a potential threat in 2016, at least on higher difficulty levels

I don’t love fodder being as weak as they are in Eternal. Not a huge deal, but I’d appreciate them actually pulling their weight

[feral plover]

yea but thats kinda what cannon fodder are-

to be strong in numbers not strong individuals

[clever bear]

They’re not even strong in numbers in Eternal.

They’re too slow and squishy to even get an attack off if there isn’t a higher priority target

[feral plover]

because by then u already moved on and already very strong as a player

[clever bear]

That sorta defeats their purpose. Enemies are there to pose a threat, even the little guys should at least demand you respect what they can do. At any rate this whole whatever this is has gone in circles for hours now and I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone else’s minds. Let’s give it a rest

[feral plover]

you forget doom has always had "roles" with their enemies not just random big health bad guys u shoot at till they fall

[clever bear]

I didn’t forget. What role the Eternal imps and soldiers even fill besides be chainsaw food?

[feral plover]

its not going anywhere because i just want to know why u think this way

not cause ur actually gonna persuade me.

[feral plover]

u just answered your question.

[clever bear]

The unwilling already fill that role better. I really like how 2016 had imps be really easy to kill but will absolutely maul you if you don’t respect them

Mostly I think Doom at its best is about overcoming overwhelming odds, and Eternal’s slayer is so powerful that even the challenging fights never feel like overwhelming odds

[feral plover]

yea and eternal has u facing overwhelming odds. With the more demon roster than 2016

[clever bear]

Not really? You’re so powerful that nothing gets to feel truly daunting or intimidating

[feral plover]

and Imps/Soldiers are nothing more than an evolution towards combat.

Hellknights or Revenants dont instantly appear on the first level. The game is constantly rising the bar.

[feral plover]

so are you saying doom eternal is not a hard game or at least nothing that has the player have some actual strategic engagements when playing

because the way ur describing Eternal is like my average playthrough in a Call of Duty campaign

[clever bear]

No, I’m saying that it never feels like you’re expected to lose

[feral plover]

what does "expected to lose" exactly means.

when the player the first time plays the game and sees 50 demons they gotta fight and they arnt scared doesnt mean Everyone is objectively thinking this game never makes you feel like man "i am Stumped"

[clever bear]

In Doom, you always have the tools to come out on top and usually have more than enough to succeed, but most games in the series create the illusion of the deck being stacked against you, even when it really isn’t

[feral plover]

are u saying classic doom is made to be impossible

cause its not.

[reef bolt]

👁️

[clever bear]

Classic Doom is made to feel harder than it actually is

[feral plover]

isnt that what an illusion is

to believe its harder than it actually is

to believe whats there when it isnt

[clever bear]

Right

[feral plover]

and games create that illusion. just as classic did

[feral plover]

im eating a burger rn

[clever bear]

I do wonder how much the lore shifting towards the player being perceived by other characters as invincible is contributing to the whole feeling of Eternal never feeling like you won when you really weren’t supposed to

[feral plover]

its called a power fantasy

[clever bear]

I get power fantasy, but I’d much rather have the power fantasy of being seen as nothing by the enemy and world and proving them wrong than one where I’m just assumed to have the upper hand

[feral plover]

yeah but ur not really nothing. You are the doom slayer

[solar crown]

yeah... that's the problem they have lmfao

[clever bear]

The whole “you are so mighty and invincible and the strongest dude ever” thing feels more patronizing than empowering to me

[solar crown]

you only really can get that feeling in:

1. series that renew their protagonist
2. new series

[feral plover]

3. the majority doesnt actually have an issue with the Slayer and its just us being nit picky

[solar crown]

that doesnt fit in the bullet board?

[feral plover]

Lol

[feral plover]

some games have communities that imo complain way too much for their own sake

[solar crown]

ok, doesnt change what i said

[feral plover]

cool

[clever bear]

The Slayer losing his powers may have been done as a way to kind of reset the power dynamic a bit. I know I’m not alone in thinking that Eternal overdid the Slayer’s reputation.

[solar crown]

not like doomguy's powers really did anything except make box puzzels

[feral plover]

and fire through a turret gun

kinda it.

[clever bear]

Even just having the other characters thinking the Slayer is weak now would make things a lot better imo

[feral plover]

i dont think u can make the slayer perceived as weak. even when blazkowicz takes a shrapnel to the head the dudes killin nazis like another monday

[solar crown]

just storywise, like "oh wow doomguy you lost your power you're now such a baby lol"

[feral plover]

if u wanna make something percieved as "unstoppable" 2016 Cyberdemon intro is baddass

[feral plover]

"haha look at this loser he lost his stamin- FUCK"

I’m assuming DoomGuy’s power being lost is what’ll give hell enough confidence to go back on the offensive in the next doom

[solar crown]

except that they can't unless they start retconning

demons can't leave hell anymore lmfao

[clever bear]

Not if someone else comes along to break them out. Maybe Shub?

[feral plover]

the slayer would not give 10 shits he lost his powers

They’re obviously going to introduce a new big bad?

yay retcons yahoo Hellshroom kingdom here we come

I just need a Bethesda game crossover of Fallout, Doom, Wolfenstein, and Elder Scrolls...

[clever bear]

On a completely different note, since they’re probably going to do a new armor design (they always do), what do you think the Slayer should look like next time? What if they bulked him up a bit and made the armor a bit boxier?

[feral plover]

needs some spikes. give him a jetpack

[solar crown]

idk how they could make a jetpack really engaging

and spikes look stupid 9times out of 10

[feral plover]

i mean give him a jetpack cosmetically cause he dashes

it look cool like a Jump kit from Apex/Titanfall

I’d make his new suit more utilitarian. Emphasize the importance of his equipment to surviving this time around.

[feral plover]

bandolier

some "tactical" feel with his armor maybe some Shells/Magazine cases.

still keep that "Gladiator" feel Eternal gives but with Sci-fi Masterchief feel 2016 gives

[clever bear]

To be a bit more specific, when I say boxier I mean something like thicker plating in places to give him more of tanky look

[feral plover]

and keep his Muscles. Any reason to remove his biceps is a sin to god

The dude was jacked even before becoming a god so yeah

[clever bear]

Having shells and such visible does seem neat

Especially something like a device in the gauntlet that feeds shells into his hand when he reloads the SSG

[solar crown]

Idk what to expect but luckily i also dont really care that much

You'll just be seeing the hands and sometimes the legs

[feral plover]

the Medieval righteous themes go so hard for doom

[clever bear]

If it looks cool I’ll be happy. I just think it’s fun to speculate

[feral plover]

when martin talks abt the inspirations for the slayer its basically every kid's dream

He-man, Robocop, the predator, Rambo, terminator etc. i mean all those amazing action cartoons/movie characters anyone can enjoy

Hugo’s got me pretty interested in the direction of the next doom but at the same time I remember he isn’t a good writer.

[clever bear]

Eternal’s slayer design gives me Fast Robocop vibes, which I like, but I’d love to see something a bit more space mariney if that makes sense.

[feral plover]

I dont think its abt good writing but more so Doom should feel like Eye Candy

Im not looking for the last of us in doom. Im looking for an arnold schwarzenegger feel

I wouldn’t conflate wanting a semi-competent script and worldbuilding as wanting another “last of us”

I dont wanna feel "sad" or "cry" or be shocked at twists and turns that make me sentimental but something that make me feel good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92iXDKX4Y9g Joseph staten says it perfectly.

I just want to see fun characters in a straightforward narrative that nails down the lovecraftian tone the next doom is supposedly going to be aiming for.

[clever bear]

The main feeling besides excitement I want from Doom is “oh shit” when you see a fight you don’t feel ready for waiting for you.

[feral plover]

Almost everything about DE’s writing is pretty terrible and it mostly stems from over ambition

[clever bear]

Yeah keeping things simple would be a very good idea

[feral plover]

its true but without it u also couldnt be in the environments we explore

I mean you don’t need a terrible plot to get good locations

Just write another way of getting to that point

a game putting u in a new location every level is impressive and cant name many games that deal with that. Most fps campaigns either have to tell a new story or have to spend time in a location for a great amount of time before moving

[feral plover]

Battlefield 1 has u going to different locations because it tells different stories

Half life 2 u are in city 17 for a good while cause of its focus on narrative.

[clever bear]

I think a simpler story could easily take you everywhere Eternal goes except maybe Urdak.

Probably in a different order though

Like doing the Earth levels in one go, then going to the Sentinel planet, then Hell with the showdown back on Earth if we have to but you don’t bounce back and forth as much

[feral plover]

sure but how long would that need to be

we are bouncing back and forth because theres actually important locations and purpose for each one

and cause if we had those obstacles removed it make the game increasingly "shorter" or the player faces the same environment filler

why u cant rlly feel "bored" playing eternal cause the game doesnt make u feel like ur in the same environment every time

[clever bear]

Probably about the same. If you go to Hell on Earth first, you could have that just be a stepping stone to reach the Super gore nest, then you go to Sentinel Land and do those levels with different story context, then you travel through the Hell levels towards one goal. You’d just need to change the reason the Slayer is going to each point

[feral plover]

ye but ur forgetting that 2 of the priests are on earth and one is in sentinal prime

u cant actually make Doom on earth go in 2 levels

its why the Cultist levels are extended to like 2 levels

because this game actually needs to be long.

[clever bear]

The only real content reduction I’d make with such a reordering is move the Gladiator as the end of Exultia’s non Hell part
New story means there wouldn’t even have to be Hell Priests at all

[feral plover]

Hell priests sucked ass

in addition to needing Urdak cause of the khan Maykr

It’s like they want to avoid using archdemons as much as possible it’s strange

[clever bear]

Why? The Khan Maykr doesn’t necessarily have to even exist in the alternate story.

[feral plover]

sure but she is the reason why the Icon of Sin even exists as a final boss unless u have some other retcon idea bringing him back even tho hes been dead sense doom 2

[clever bear]

When I say have a simpler story, I’m saying that they didn’t need to come up with such a convoluted plot in the first place

[feral plover]

the reason theres convoluted moments is because of Urdak and the Sentinals

which 2016 is the reason why they exist

[clever bear]

Urdak feels kind of out of place and unnecessary lore wise

[feral plover]

i mean not really because it gives lore about what doom's Heaven actually is

[clever bear]

Why should the Doomverse have a heaven at all?

[feral plover]

Because it adds more to the game than just Hell, Earth, Mars

[feral plover]

u could say the same about the Sentinals but they exist now what can we do abt that

[clever bear]

Yeah it’s much too late to cut Urdak now.

[feral plover]

and also cause doom is technically really just a whole bible Reference that it would feel obvious theres an "opposite" to hell

[clever bear]

You can really tell they didn’t plan ahead much with the story

Doom Hell is already different enough from Abrahamic Hell that you could just ignore there being a counterpart or even go to “they’re sort of the same thing”

[feral plover]

its kinda typical most fps campaigns imo dont have full thought out stories

sometimes it starts as a concept that grows in sequals

I mean the obvious shift in tone between Half life 1 and 2 quite exists

[clever bear]

I’m also very much of the “leave most questions unanswered” school of storytelling

[feral plover]

i agree but sometimes its inevitable to happen instead of reintroducing ideas or Re-using ideas

Like maybe its a hot take but how long before Doom guy is fighting in hell, earth, and mars in the same environment before people ask when is he gonna idk fight somewhere else. Especially when Doom is more of a franchise not a One off thing

[dull bane]

if doomguy does die, he will be sent straight to hell, and might escape if there is a escape

otherwise its just constant rip and tear

[clever bear]

That is a hot take imo. It’s okay if the games don’t go to new locales if they keep doing unique and interesting things with the existing ones

[dull bane]

the story in doom didnt really matter until 2016

in every other doom, the only reason demons were being killed is because daisy

the new stuff in eternal is cool

and the crucible is a better chainsaw, just no ammo

[feral plover]

🙏 yeah bob ur cool too

[clever bear]

Not exactly. Originally you were fighting to defend Earth with Daisy retconned in with Thy Flesh Consumed

[dull bane]

thank u

[dull bane]

now imagine
how short would doom be if doomguy realized his fists are stronger then the super shotgun

[feral plover]

@clever bear dont actually take that seriously- 😅

[dull bane]

im just saying random stuff at this point lmao

[clever bear]

I like the new Earth and Hell settings (especially Reclaimed Earth and the Blood Swamps) but not so much the Sentinel Land stuff and Urdak

[dull bane]

earth being destroyed gives u a new enviroment to work on

[feral plover]

i grew up with He man and enjoy Destiny 2. So i disagree 🤓

[dull bane]

hell is a robot now
weird take but its cool

[clever bear]

Disagree with which part?

[feral plover]

doom guy is actually a girl

[feral plover]

i like Sentinal Prime more cause i enjoy cool gothic material over Earth

[dull bane]

“In a alternate universe where doomgirl… sucks at killing demons.”

[feral plover]

Dude just forgot about doom 3

[clever bear]

Oh okay. I like Gothic Hell but not so much Gothic Planet

[dull bane]

i forgot about doom 3
i dont think it really matters since it takes a different character

[feral plover]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-pam-beesly-theyre-the-same-picture-the-same-picture-they-are-the-same-picture-gif-20830121

[dull bane]

and makes em a noobslayer

[feral plover]

I didn’t care for the night sentinels in general. I mean space crusaders are a tried and true concept but they managed to make them extremely boring.

[clever bear]

Same here

[dull bane]

the only good the sentinels done are give tokens
which are helpful
and no im not meaning the story
the entire thing they do in the whole game is stand, waiting to give u a upgrade

[feral plover]

id say DLC especially for pt 2 made them much more entertaining to see their world.

[clever bear]

If they’d been kept super mysterious and vague I’d like them

[feral plover]

Their technology and military might is what fascinates me

[dull bane]

i havent played the ancient gods yet but i might do it soon

[feral plover]

You should they’re very fun

[dull bane]

i just finished the eternal campaign

[clever bear]

TAG is easily the best part of Eternal

[dull bane]

and my mom isnt in a buying mood now
but this will be my first time ever buying a story dlc

tag in doom fr fr💀

[feral plover]

even then theres still a lot more mystery like what could there be more powerful than Davoth

God with a capitol G

which gives more room for Doom to allow more interesting villains than just Sentinal Priests

[dull bane]

what if fighting the literal satan

[feral plover]

especially when we can easily move on from Sentinal Prime now that we have basically defeated demons outside of hell

Eternals story was so bad its inspired me to do my own reinterpretation of it lmao

[feral plover]

star wars

?

[dull bane]

when i played 2016 and finished it, i was flabbergasted at the ending, didnt know the crucible existed until i played eternal

i went “WTF IS THAT RED SWORD HUH WHAT????”

[feral plover]

mom's lightsaber

[clever bear]

What about Shub or the King in Yellow? I’m game for a Lovecraftian villain

[dull bane]

dang

[feral plover]

Shub is such a funny name for a main villain

[dull bane]

[feral plover]

open world doom game when

Never hopefully

[dull bane]

doom eternal is kinda like one

but not a open world game

[feral plover]

linear actually but those backgrounds make me wish

People haven’t learned from halo infinite huh

they are more beautiful than the average Ubisoft open world

[dull bane]

i dont think a open world doom game isnt that great

[feral plover]

sure but thats cause 343 has always been incompetent

not because Open world games suck as a genre

[dull bane]

we stick to the old… “guy go mission, kill, repeat”

[clever bear]

Shub isn’t her actual name. Her actual name starts with that but has something Vega will flag as a slur because similar spelling because Lovecraft was very very racist

[feral plover]

People said the same thing with Elden Ring and were very skeptic if that could work

[feral plover]

Oh

Just slapping game IP’s you like onto the open world genre isn’t as good of an idea as you think

[feral plover]

never said that its automatically a great idea but its also an ambitious and exciting idea too

[dull bane]

3d world games are more for platformers types

[feral plover]

More likely than not it’s going to be terribly boring and underbaked. I don’t think current doom’s pacing is going to gel well with that format either.

[clever bear]

Look up “Black Goat of the Woods” if you want to read up on her. Basically she’s the Lovecraft mythos version of a fertility goddess but instead of a beautiful lady she’s a mass of flesh and stuff that produces abominations with spores or something

[dull bane]

think of mario oddysey

[feral plover]

sure but this is the company that manages to bring back doom and wolfenstein on the market. I believe they can do anything rlly

[feral plover]

Ambitious in the wrong ways

[feral plover]

Id is basically carrying Bethesda on their shoulders

I think Bethesda is doing more than fine right now

[feral plover]

redfall

[clever bear]

Nonlinear levels I’d like to see return but full open world sounds like a poor fit for Doom

[dull bane]

id is the reason bethesda still exists
bethesda isnt doing good now

[feral plover]

Even without Id. And machine games made NuWolfenstein.

[dull bane]

lots of games for doom follow the same thing

do the mission

[feral plover]

sure but we havent gotten a new wolfenstein sense 2017/2019

Okay

only game they are workin on is an Indiana jones game atm

if anyone remembers that teaser

[feral plover]

u clearly dont have a great memory of bethesda's track record

[dull bane]

one day
just one day doom might be ruined.

[feral plover]

They’ve been making bad-mediocre games for ages now they’re still doing fine

[dull bane]

all the games so far have sold great
but theres gonna be one bad one

[clever bear]

Their Skyrimvanias seem to sell. They probably wouldn’t make them if those weren’t profitable

[feral plover]

because they have the biggest corporation owning them

Thats why they sold themselves to microsoft.

[dull bane]

selling urself to microsoft is a good choice, but that means u cant make ur own games

[feral plover]

they need someone that will actually fund them and what better than Bill Gate's bottomless pockets

In addition, has nobody noticed why Microsoft has been buying up all these companies that have some sort of controversy over them

[dull bane]

fr
every company bought by microsoft have some type of rivary

[feral plover]

type of "controversy"

[dull bane]

yeah yeah

[feral plover]

Ubisoft has a strike on their hands by employees for environment work place. Same with Activision/Blizzard one of the BIGGEST companies

and they are willing to sell themselves to microsoft.

[dull bane]

i think i remember that when microsoft tried to buy nintendo, the employees just laughed

[feral plover]

Ubisoft and EA would def sell themselves later on

[dull bane]

i aint seeing nintendo going anywhere

[clever bear]

I assume that the fact Microsoft hasn’t dissolved Bethesda means they consider it profitable still.

[reef bolt]

They have the highest selling console of all time

[feral plover]

also cause Nintendo wouldnt rlly wanna contribute with the west

[dull bane]

microsoft begging nintendo fr

[feral plover]

well yeah because Bethesda owns way too many IPs

[dull bane]

maybe sega will be gone

[reef bolt]

Dude they had a midnight madness line up out the fucking store for tears of the kingdom. Haven't seen that shit since halo2

[dull bane]

u know nintendo aint fucking around when they pull that up

[feral plover]

the leaker.....

[dull bane]

its a artbook

[feral plover]

bro the ninjas got him

[dull bane]

i dont think anyone cares for artbooks
read it once

[versed summit]

i think doom slayer will make a whimpering audio in the future

i mean when things get tough you need some money

gotta make a whimpering audio, easy 10 bucks

[feral plover]

What

[versed summit]

just a theory

[dull bane]

ok

[elder viper]

Definitely not. Bethesda could definitely thrive without Doom. Skyrim and Fallout 76 (for some reason) are pretty good money makers

[dull bane]

expect for those
anyways

[feral plover]

Is there any word on the next doom game and no I’m not talking about mighty doom

[dull bane]

i dont think so rn

[woven siren]

monter truk

[elder viper]

All we know is id Software is making a new game. We don’t if it’s a new Doom game though

[short mantle]

nah they all play quake arena while living off sales rn

everyone knows that

Once they get bored they start working on a new game

[feral plover]

My only gripe is how unpopular Arena shooters are

especially when QC fails to accomplish a sustainable success and more so a short live burst.

Even if QC isnt rlly a “classic” feel. I do enjoy playing it but shame that modern audiences dont find Arena Gameplay appealing

[woven siren]

tbh my friends who play valorant liked the arena shooters i got them to play, but the player base was too dead to keep them invested, so they only really played with me or with bots

hear me out but difficulty in quake comes from the veterans playing it, newbies with shitty movement get caught on corners and such a lot and are easy to hit because they have predictable movement too, so that makes aiming easier in noob matches

basic movement around the map shouldn't take too long to get the hang of either, i could soar (for the most part) through a map with only about 9 hours of practice spread out over 3 days

the goals with item control and map control are fairly straightforward too

[feral plover]

its the lack of a tutorial

people sure can say having to put in the right inputs at the right time is bad game design but i disagree

[woven siren]

rhythm games:

[feral plover]

Thats like saying a fighting game and mashing buttons is how u play.

[woven siren]

precision platformers:

[feral plover]

exactly

Same concept with Bhopping. or ig its called somethin else in QC

[woven siren]

quake's movement was accidental but it's damn fun

[feral plover]

and its not hard to do either in QC u just press W+A/D+jump+moving your mouse in the direction of A or D

[woven siren]

it's because it's a smooth way of accelerating that actually requires precision

[woven siren]

yeah, exactly

[feral plover]

in old quake u cant press W cause it breaks momentum

[dull bane]

istg if we dont fight satan in doom its not doom

[woven siren]

jump diagonally and move your mouse in that direction

getting mouse movement juuust right is the only tricky bit, and that doesn't take long

[feral plover]

all we needed was an actual tutorial and maybe something to appeal ig for a larger audience that im not even sure

[woven siren]

the problem with quake is that the community also kind of maybe sort of sucks

[feral plover]

Gatekeeping

im guessing

vega L

[woven siren]

middled-aged men with nothing better to do than b!tch about dead video games for 5 hours

[feral plover]

Ngl i didnt know quake 3 had a grapple hook

[woven siren]

most nice people i meet who play quake are those who haven't really played video games in a while since then

[feral plover]

halo fans in a nutshell we gonna be hittin 30

[woven siren]

younger members of the community are also pretty nice too though

[woven siren]

o7

[feral plover]

It would be very hard to make quake mp relevent again unless something changes

[dull bane]

my dad played alot of games
he owned every console and handheld
included g&w and the fucking virtual boy

[woven siren]

people want fast-paced FPS mp

[feral plover]

This is a genre where the formula is just not “fit” for modern audience and im usually against appealing to a broader audience but Arena shooters are just dead

[woven siren]

my dad got to beta test the first tv remote in our country

[dull bane]

dang lucky man

[feral plover]

fast as in Advance movement and abilities that just “feel” fast

titanfall is the only game that feels like both

[woven siren]

that's fair, but my valorant friend saw quake and was like "wooaaaah look at that movement"

most of them also found the game fun too

[dull bane]

quake looks like good game

the community? ehhh

[feral plover]

its abt Yellow man fights monsters

[woven siren]

they play movement shooters on roblox lol

[dull bane]

pretty much every fps game
green guy fights demons

[woven siren]

it just depends on where you are

[dull bane]

doom is my favourite fighting game
mario (yes i like mario) is my favourite platformer game

[woven siren]

quake players will either beg you to play it or be elitists against tactical shooters

[dull bane]

ffranchise

[dull bane]

thats every fucking quake player
literally both

[woven siren]

yeah, it just depends on the strategy they're using to get you to play quake

[feral plover]

kinda cringe

i like csgo very much

[dull bane]

instead u gotta accept people for who they are and not force them

[woven siren]

i like strategy games a lot

[feral plover]

CS and Team Fortress are my own bread and butter

[woven siren]

i liked hideous destructor (realism/milsim-style doom mod)

[dull bane]

tf2 is a great game

the community is 50-50

[woven siren]

CS isn't worth the 20GB for me

[feral plover]

its great to me cause of the support we get for VA’s, Community/workshop stuff, etc. so i cant complain

even if its just the same joke someone will say like a broken record or racism/homophobia

but tbh ive never actually seen those in my games so ye

[solar crown]

20GB is nothing

[feral plover]

ye not for everyone but i prefer over Valorant

[woven siren]

not if you're broke with a tiny ass SSD

[dull bane]

theres a literal rock thats shaped like a diddly doo
and people love it

[woven siren]

valorant looks like CS:GO for kindergarteners

[dull bane]

i fucking hate valorants community

[feral plover]

the graphics quality looks like a mobile game for optimization reasons

However doesnt rlly excuse the fact they can just make an “option” for better quality ig

Like Fortnite u can go as low as u want for Frame rate

[woven siren]

also

question

[feral plover]

like i understand u want to appeal to everyone and they do that well

[woven siren]

is controlling recoil the only hard part of aiming in cs/valorant

[feral plover]

valorant ability spam and timing are important. Especially line-ups and game sense

[woven siren]

since people don't move that fast, i'd expect aiming is easier than AFPS

[woven siren]

talking purely about aiming here

[feral plover]

id say thats the least hard thing in Tactical shooters

[woven siren]

please don't throw esports terms at me

[dull bane]

esports terms

[feral plover]

sure

Recoil control is more consistent in CS than valorant.

[woven siren]

yes

[feral plover]

Valorant is more flicky with their shooting

[dull bane]

next thing u know, ur controller has recoil when u shoot

[woven siren]

CS is a constant pattern, valorant is moreso just a shape, right?

[feral plover]

Mainly cause after the 4-5th shot in Val your shots are totally random in a certain upside down cone shape.

CS everything is Fixed and u gotta just learn them. the pattern is always the same

[woven siren]

how hard r the flicks compared to smth like quake

[feral plover]

Considering u die in a single headshot by a heavy rifle. Its not hard to do a flick shot

[woven siren]

i see

[feral plover]

its basically who draws first-

why Game sense is so important

[woven siren]

game sense is just knowing what to do when specific situations come up, right?

[feral plover]

pretty much. Being aware or predict whats going on. Good communication is also helpful from team

Quake and any competitive games obv succeed from just good communication and game sense

[woven siren]

i sort of cheated game sense with a friend once (in minecraft pvp, laugh at me) since they uploaded lots of gameplay footage in our server and on their channel

i watched all of it and took down notes n shit, i could see the sort of patterns he used, made it way easier to take him on

[feral plover]

not rlly cheating sense thats kinda how esports is

[woven siren]

oh, awesome

[feral plover]

Esports players either Scrimmage or Study eachothers playstyles

Its not abt just being good at the game its abt being better than the other team

[woven siren]

can you calculate the strategic potential of valorant using game theory

[dull bane]

slide

[woven siren]

i have no idea what the proper term for "strategic potential" is or "potential strategy"

[feral plover]

what ur saying is predicting their move and sure u def can if ur smart enough. I wont explain just cause theres a lot that goes through my head when a game starts

Any game for that matter its rlly just experience

[woven siren]

not predicting their move

how many unique strategies can you make for valorant

for example, there's way more stuff you can do in chess compared to tic-tac-toe

god i should really learn game theory at some point

[feral plover]

plenty rlly. Especially with specific hero teams etc.

If u watch videos of “hero combos” ig u may understand. But casual valorant is rlly whatever

[woven siren]

is it more compared to counter-strike

[feral plover]

yes

gameplay wise is very strikingly similar

[woven siren]

i see

[feral plover]

a lot of gameplay is unique rlly in shooters. Valorant is just a spin over the usual cs

[woven siren]

well, of course gameplay's unique

the criteria for something to be an FPS is just

shooting is a primary mechanic
3D, first-person perspective

that leaves lots of room for different types of gameplay

[feral plover]

ye sure

[open viper]

A sniper-type former human enemy would be nice.

[clever bear]

So like a more functional Hellrazer?

[open viper]

Yeah. I remember writing ideas for Possessed soldier variants in a document years ago, like Gunner, Grenadier, Sniper, etc.

[clever bear]

I’d love to see the Hellrazer return with better ai

[mint plinth]

i would love ot see all demons return. More demon types and variants to kill the better

[open viper]

Yes, I'd like to see Trites, Ticks and Cherubs return with improvements. NuDoom games had a surprising lack of small demons.

[clever bear]

I don’t want to see the little spiders again. They are upsetting enough in Doom 3.

[solar crown]

super small demons sound more annoying then a great addition

[feral plover]

Unless they slow down the pace of the game as a whole they’d just be very annoying yeah

[clever bear]

I’d welcome Cherubs and Vagaries with some tweaks though.

[feral plover]

Vagaries using the environment against you with their telekinesis would be neat

They’re pathetically weak in Doom 3 but that goes for most of the enemies in that game

[clever bear]

Yup. You’d just need to make dodging the attacks a bit easier

They’d be pretty threatening in Doom 3 if they appeared alongside other demons more often

In general Doom 3’s big problem is that it throws individual demons at you way too often

A lot of them are pretty engaging when they have some friends

To put that another way, Doom 2016/Eternal demons would be similarly pathetic if they were used in the same numbers

[mint plinth]

I always found those small demons annoying, i would add lost souls to that list

However Classic Lost Souls were much larger and beefier.

[clever bear]

Cherubs I think could be neat as long as they don’t just serve as a nuisance and add something of value. Like imagine if they spawned a random heavy demon on death or fireballs had a slight homing property while the cherub can see you

[reef bolt]

Cherubs second stage would be neat

[elder viper]

Never got why Ticks and Trites where made separate demons. There pretty much the same thing.

[mint plinth]

one was probalby used as a older model and they decided to add both. I think Ticks expode when you get close to you though

[feral plover]

Different models so why not

Ticks are barely used though

[open viper]

Trites do, but they do it if they can't reach you, like if you're on a box

[elder viper]

Well there both annoying little pests in groups especially with Doom 3’s camera shame when taking damage

[woven siren]

TRUE

i hate having to deal with tiny little shitstains on the ground who keep doing damage

[alpine robin]

What are your bets on the next game by ID
I think it's too soon for a new Doom game, and that ID probably wants a break/change of pace.
So I'm betting on Quake or at least not Doom

[feral plover]

Quake

[elder viper]

I think it’s gonna be Quake as well

[woven siren]

quack

[forest scroll]

ik it was probably discussed many times here before but what do you guys think the next doom game will be about? I personally would love to see doom guy in his argent D'nur times piloting the big ass titan robots and stuff like that or alternatively a whole new story line following the death of the Dark Lord but i have no clue how would that go

[woven siren]

next doom game will be a visual novel about doomguy's budding relationship with master chief

[forest scroll]

i dont think that would be very lore accurate......... 🤓

[woven siren]

they kiss at the end

[alpine robin]

I've had this discussion many times as well,
At first I thought slower and more akin to Doom 3
but apparently everyone hates that Idea

So I propose maybe doubling down on the idea of being like the classic games.

Back to individual levels that are linear like 2016,
Bringing back strategies used in the originals with classic Archviles and such

At this point might as well just remake the Ultimate Doom and Doom 2. But done right. Classic Games but inspired by 2016 instead.

[forest scroll]

sorry mate i unfortunately only played doom 2016 and eternal so i cant say much about remaking the classics but i personally am a big lore guy and there is a lot of potential for the game to flesh out the stories from the codex id love to see that happen but only time will tell

[mint plinth]

what makes classic so special is all the leveing building and modding. If they want to remake classic campaigns then I want make my own levels too. It will need to be a poweful editor, one that some PC's may not be able to handle to do it right.

[woven siren]

i don't want that

HD classic with new levels?

[alpine robin]

Basically a full retelling. Take all of the lore and context of the current games, and tell the story we couldn't have back then.
Have an actual Icon of Sin fight not a wall, show how the demons actually did look such as Hell knights (Eternal Gladiator is basically a classic Hell knight)

[woven siren]

so classic doom with d2016 graphics

[alpine robin]

Remaking the classics would actually be great for lore, because we could recton or fix mistakes the originals had, and see how these original locations match up geographically compared to modern hell

[woven siren]

my brother in christ the classics' lore could be fit onto 1 or 2 pages

[alpine robin]

More so Artstyle, for graphics we want the best engine possible.

[woven siren]

there's no need to retcon or fix any mistakes in the original because the lore is super minimal

[solar crown]

thing is, even with the lore of now there isnt much story in the classiocs

[alpine robin]

Then add more.

[woven siren]

bullshit imo

[solar crown]

a new game is 100 times better then basically making a new game that has little creative liberty

[woven siren]

why on earth do you need to add more lore to the classic games in a remake

[alpine robin]

Yall might be right, but if the new game is Classic inspired
would be a great excuse to have a new snapmap/map builder

[feral plover]

Okay I'm gonna say a hot take.

...If, and only if they separated them from the main games both in title and in style, cementing them as different takes rather than the "definitive versions"... I would be fine with remakes of Doom 1 and 2.

I think they'd be a fun experiment to undertake. I wouldn't beg for them, but I wouldn't be opposed to them.

[woven siren]

my thing is what exactly would even be in the remakes

[alpine robin]

Another earth, so separate from the main story?

[feral plover]

No - moreso alternate takes on Doom 1's story.

[alpine robin]

I just think a remake would be perfect for showcasing what the developers wanted to without technical limitations

[woven siren]

make the games full, proper 3D? now you need to redesign levels because those won't look as good in HD
now you just loop back to HD doom with new levels, something that you can already do really easily with mods

[woven siren]

the og devteam is already split up

[feral plover]

Have you guys played Resident Evil? If so this is what I mean: ideally a Doom 1 remake would be a retelling of Doom 1 itself. Neither are non-canon and neither story overrides the other. Both exist in-canon as different takes on Doom's "true" events, which are decided solely by you.
This means that a Doom 1 remake wouldn't significantly change the story, but rather add details. The same basic locations, boss fights, etc... would exist, but there's potential in adding things.

[alpine robin]

Not a 1 to 1 remake. New but inspired

[solar crown]

doom1 barely has story though so theres not a lot to really remake

[alpine robin]

@feral plover Hit the nail.
A resident evil style remake

[woven siren]

i feel like you just have to add story to an existing zdoom remake wad and you're good to go

[alpine robin]

I think it would be such a waste of potential to not make a new engine or game entirely for such a project like this

Something triple A would be marvelous

[solar crown]

i feel like there just isnt anything to rework but to make you have a jump button and HD models instead of the still really upholding sprites

[woven siren]

exactly

[feral plover]

Some examples of things I could see them adding:
-New intermission text that is read from Doomguy's perspective himself, perhaps even voiced, thus allowing him to have dialogue without having him talk during gameplay.
-Adding NPC characters inspired by Doom's older scripts, such as Buddy Dacote, or characters from the Doom bible; I could see Buddy being a recurring NPC in the first episode who is killed by the Barons.
-Codex entries fleshing out the Classic Earth and Hell, such as establishing the OG game's timeframe and its version of the UAC; adding info that ties the OG game to 2016 and Eternal's lore
-Adding an entire intro section like Doom 3, which is absent from 1993
-More monsters, such as adding some of 2's roster to 1 like PSX Doom
-Connecting Doom 1 to Doom 64, since canonically the Mother Demon should be hiding in the base around now

Here's the thing - I think you're looking at this wrong. A remake of Doom 1 wouldn't be to make the game better or to add things to it that it "needs". It would be to reimagine Doom 1 as a more fleshed-out story that plays more like, say, Doom 3.
It would be a different take on Doom 1, not a better take.

[alpine robin]

Ok I agree with most of your sentiment in doing a "inspired" remake like resident evil, but a bit of this stuff might be going too far.
Npcs and voice acting already puts us in doom 3 territory

[feral plover]

Good! Doom 3 is great.

[solar crown]

you can do almost all of this more like a slight update to doom1, or they really arent all that needed

[woven siren]

more concerned about what you can do with the gameplay

[feral plover]

They aren't needed.

[solar crown]

if you dont want it to have voices, then wtf do you want from it???

[feral plover]

A remake of Doom is not needed at all. But a remake still can exist as its own product that seeks to reinvent the story and make it its own, rather than attempt to replace it.

[woven siren]

if i get an AAA doom 1 remake i want myself voice acting

[feral plover]

If you want my opinion? I'd be all for remaking Doom 1 in Doom 3's style. Maybe less of a focus on darkness and horror since I think that doesn't fit the first Doom well, but slightly more realistic movement, an emphasis on weapon balancing and environmental exploration? I would be all for this.

[solar crown]

considering there is barely any story to reinvent, an actual new game would serve much, MUCH better

[alpine robin]

I'd like to agree with this, however I think a large majority would want to lean towards 2016 more in terms of speed and pacing of action

[forest scroll]

i think we can all agree that a completely new game with new story etc would be cool as hell too right?

[woven siren]

honestly i agree, i think that would be cool

[woven siren]

i want that much more than any sort of remake idea people try coming up with

[feral plover]

But Luci, this would be a new game.
You guys should remember that Doom has already done this before! Doom 3 is largely a reboot of Doom 1 with reinvented gameplay, level design, and story. It's only recently been recontextualized as a story that stands alongside them.

This would be like Doom 3 but more faithful, and designed to feel like a "director's cut" of the original story that ties more heavily into 2016 and Eternal

[woven siren]

if you flesh out the lore for the classic games what does that really serve

[solar crown]

if you "remake" a game, then give it completely new graphics, give it a completely new story, give it completely new enemies, give it completely new mechanics.... then you haven't "reworked" anything, you made a new game

[feral plover]

Yes

[alpine robin]

We can learn more about the First Age, the First battle, lmao

[woven siren]

jesus christ

[solar crown]

then i would rather have an "actual" new game

[woven siren]

he fights the demons

that's the first battle

[feral plover]

A remake is not the same as the original. The remake can stand as its own experience alongside the original.
Additions don't have to "serve" anything. IMO, if a hypothetical remake emphasized itself as an alternate take on Doom rather than a replacement, and work was put in to make it unique in its own right, what would be wrong with this? Especially with the Doom franchise kinda being at the perfect point to take a step back?

[woven siren]

just give out a cool art book with lore blurbs

[forest scroll]

what would you like to see then :) like what game

[solar crown]

so the "remake" would be a few between level textscreens, a lil bit of voice, and that's about it then

[alpine robin]

Having lore be delegated to just an artbook is sorely dissapoinintg for fans.
No codex or audio logs in game?

[solar crown]

well yeah if the effort is as much as 1 guy working on it for a week, having ti be proofread by the team to make sure it fits the lore, then refined in another week then sure

[feral plover]

Take a look at RE4 Remake

[alpine robin]

Ok compare resident evil 2 to the Resident evil 2 remake. That's sort of what we mean

[woven siren]

i'd like it tbh

[solar crown]

what could doom do that re4 did

[feral plover]

RE4 Remake is nothing like this. RE4 Remake completely reimagines 4's story, its environments, and its combat to be better-paced and more in-line with the rest of the series. RE4 was already one of the best games ever made and the remake improved on it in every way.

[alpine robin]

I'll say RE2/3 works a bit better because Tbh a lot of people still think re4 was too modern to warrant a remake

[solar crown]

unlike re4, doom1 doesnt have a real story

[alpine robin]

But the lore...

[woven siren]

like m0nologue's e3m8 fanfic

[solar crown]

what about it

[feral plover]

Doom 1 can have a story, and there can still be changes to make to its gameplay.

[forest scroll]

sorry i am not familliar with it can you link it somehow nvm its just the guy above lol which one did you mean tho

[solar crown]

but then it wont be the story reimagined, it would only be a new story

[alpine robin]

What about the manual, and the text boxes, those ARE a story.
We can expand upon those and actually make it something besides a block of text

[feral plover]

Are there not complaints about the original Doom? I've seen so many people echo the sentiment that Doom 1's level design turns to shit after the first episode, and how a lot of Episode 3 is very lame in design. Or how the beginning of Thy Flesh Consumed is much, much harder than the rest of the episode.
How about how Doom 1 does have a story yet the game's story is locked behind a manual you have to Google?

[solar crown]

imagine if the re4 remake didnt reimagine the story, but just had a straight up different story

[alpine robin]

Ok. That's fine
it's a remake, it doesn't have to be 1 to 1

[solar crown]

and my best mono, how long is that story? 5, maybe 6 lines?

[alpine robin]

We're not changing the foundation, just filling in the gaps and adding insulation

[feral plover]

7 paragraphs.

[woven siren]

what are you going to do to expand upon it

[solar crown]

yeah then it would just be a few textwalls between levels, some bugfixing, a few additions, and done

[woven siren]

tell me what extra bits of the story you want to hear about from a doom 1 remake

[clever bear]

I would rather not have a Doom 1 remake on the grounds that it would potentially make the original game less accessible. Especially if they started implementing modern Doom stuff that doesn’t belong in Doom 1

[mint plinth]

i would rather see Id Software give us modders/level builders the tools to remake classic ourselves honestly.

[alpine robin]

Go into detail of how doomguy was in Mars. Maybe animate that into a cutscene.
Add cutscenes showing him actually moving around to different parts of hell.
Animate the bases being taken over.

[woven siren]

i don't want it to divert attention away from the og doom

[woven siren]

so you want something like the intro to kdizd

[solar crown]

you physically cannot make the og game less accessible

[alpine robin]

Thing is that's already happened with WADS and stuff. There is a market for it. The original games will always be there. This is just something new

[feral plover]

A Doom 1 remake would not be "let's just add shit to Doom 1 to make it better". It'd be reimagining it as a whole - different level layouts, different combat, different demon AIs. I do think there is merit to this idea, not because Doom 1993 needs fixing, but because it'd be fun to revisit Doom's origins.
I would want to see level design that incorporates the fact that Doomguy can jump, crouch, and climb ladders. I would want Doom 1's level design to be changed to feel more like real places on the moons of Mars while still keeping the spirit of those levels. I would want to hear Doom 1's music reimagined in the style of 2016 and Eternal. I would want to see the return of classic enemies that were unable to return in their original form in future installments, like Spiderdemons or OG Pinkies.

[solar crown]

it's rampant online with free downloads and stuff

[mint plinth]

but a campaign being on Phobos and Deimos would be awesome.

[solar crown]

but by that point, why "remake" doom 1? you're not keeping anything from doom1, you're making a new game and calling it a remake whilst it is not

[feral plover]

I would want to see enemy AIs in a modern game that act reminiscent of their original counterparts while still having new attacks balanced around a game where Doomguy is fast and strong, but not a superhuman like in the newer games.

[woven siren]

that won't add anything to the lore my guy

[solar crown]

this would be like if capcom called re3 a re2 remake

[feral plover]

This is, by definition, a remake. A remake isn't the same game with more content- it's completely remaking the game from the ground up.

This is exactly what RE4R did.

[woven siren]

i feel like this could be done with a doom 2016 mod

[alpine robin]

Guys, but wouldn't it be FUN.
That's all that matters right?
If it's fun

Imagine if ID had the technology available during 2016 when they made the original games.

That's what we mean.
SORT OF YEAH.
But snapmap and modding isn't enough.
A triple aaa studio can really give us that vision of phobos deimos and the bases the guy explores

[clever bear]

The RE remakes were done instead of porting the original games. I could absolutely see Bethesda following up the remake with delisting the original, or at the very least abandoning it

[woven siren]

but it isn't worth the effort to put in

[alpine robin]

DELIST DOOM. HOW

[woven siren]

when they could just make a new game with that effort

[alpine robin]

This is a new game though.

[solar crown]

i dont think microsoft has done that and again, delisting it would do nothing

[woven siren]

as in, follow-up to eternal new game

[feral plover]

I'm making these hypothetical ideas with the assumption in mind that the remake would co-exist alongside the original rather than attempt to replace it.

[solar crown]

you can download the OG games online for free completely legitimately

[woven siren]

fresh gameplay new game

[feral plover]

If that criteria were met, I would be able to accept a Doom remake.

[alpine robin]

Then just say that.
There's a difference between saying this is a bad idea, and saying you would prefer a more Eternal Style game

Both ideas can coexist at once

[feral plover]

I disagree. 1) If it was, it'd have been done already. And 2) If it is, what's the harm in having it be made as an official project?

[woven siren]

more saying on the former

[woven siren]

well, d2016 doesn't have the modding capabilities of course

[solar crown]

it would take away resources i would rather have on an actual new game instead of making a new game but handicapping yourself

[alpine robin]

Again, this would be a great excuse to make a new snapmap/mapbuilder to spice up the doom map making scene with a modern engine.

[solar crown]

why not have an actual new game have a mapbuilder?

[feral plover]

I don't mind this either. I want a new Doom game, but man, it's become very clear they're gonna wait a while before they continue the franchise, and that's understandable considering TAG2 reached a high in the series that is very hard to naturally continue off of.

[solar crown]

there are already mapmakers for OG doom is there not?

[woven siren]

but i feel like this doom remake you suggested seems like an alternate universe doom 2016

[feral plover]

As soon as TAG2 came out I knew it'd be a while until we got a new entry. So I don't see the harm in letting them step back a bit and refocus themselves towards other things in Doom's canon.

[solar crown]

tag2 already retconned so i easily imagine they will just soft retcon it anyways

[clever bear]

I would prefer them just making a new game over reimagining the first game. Doom 3 I could see justifying this kind of remake since there’s already a clear story and such.

[mint plinth]

It has already been while, i need more doom now!

[feral plover]

I don't think they'll do that. I think if anything they want to wait a long time before continuing the story because they know TAG2 received criticism for how they did it.

[alpine robin]

Most of ID and Hugo have already stated the next game is going away from The Doom Eternal style gameplay (quote me if I'm wrong)
I'm just exploring how a new game moving forward could retain the spirit of the originals, slow down, and still satisfy new faster paced doom fans

[solar crown]

well yeah but on the other hand now they actually have time to think of a way to retcon it without it being as bad

[clever bear]

The “it’s probably going to be a while” thing would sting less if Eternal had Snapmap or something to enable more unique content

[alpine robin]

I think we all can agree the next game needs snapmap

[mint plinth]

a snapmap that isn't held hostage by console power as well

[solar crown]

wasnt snapmap kinda limited? would rather have something better then

[woven siren]

i feel like this is the only speculation in this channel that got me on an actual rant

[alpine robin]

Then let's make it better, what other alternative ideas do you have?

[solar crown]

straight up no limits anywhere

[mint plinth]

first let us use MP maps in snap map

[alpine robin]

Then let's do it

[solar crown]

which i believe snapmad did feature

[mint plinth]

and let us edit monsters the way we can edit player armors

[solar crown]

i dont think enemies should be touchable

your kit and enemies should only be tweaked by what is available, not BS stat changes

[alpine robin]

I love Eternal, but I think that game is already perfect. I really don't think you can follow up on it. The next Doom Game is not going to be Doom Eternal 2
It's going to be different, and feel different

[mint plinth]

why?

[clever bear]

Snapmap isn’t perfect but it’s much better than Eternal’s no level editor (or modding tools) whatsoever

[mint plinth]

I want to make blue imps and have them toss ice balls

[solar crown]

theres plenty to follow up with eternal, but overall you would still have something that feels a lot like eternal because they are fairly close to greatness within their own game

[alpine robin]

What could they add to improve the gameplay?

[alpine robin]

MIGHTY DOOM

[feral plover]

I think a remake of Doom 1 that reimagines its enemies, levels, and story while still keeping the basic framework of it all is a valid idea that I wouldn't mind seeing from id for the following reasons:

1. I think Doom 1's locales are worth returning to, especially in a context where the levels can be reimagined to keep jumping, crouching, climbing, etc... in mind,
2. I think Doom 1 can be reiterated on in an AAA release in ways that just isn't possible through simple map-editing,
3. There is merit in allowing 2016/Eternal's writers to expand on the environments and story of Doom 1,
4. Provides a low-risk way to allow Doom to return to more grounded gameplay as a palate-cleanser after Doom Eternal,
5. What is more in the spirit of the original games than reiterating and reinventing them? The community has done this for decades; why not have id Software take a crack at it again?

[solar crown]

for example: actual balance between weaponmods, faster early game progression to make it less sluggish

[mint plinth]

editoring monsters and AI is a big part of classic doom building

SnapMap 2.0 will need that

[alpine robin]

What's the biggest change you can think of, because that you can just fix with mods like it's been said.

[feral plover]

That fourth point is, IMO, especially important. New major franchises inherently have risk to them, and having an installment after Eternal that isn't as frenetic and fast-paced can impact its sales and popularity. Doing this with a Doom 1 remake would allow them to use the game as a testing-ground internally for future entries beng the same way.

This is what Capcom did with RE2R - they needed a way to reintroduce new fans to the older games and expand RE's newer brand, but couldn't jump immediately into Village.

[solar crown]

if it was an actual new game it would have many, completely random additions you physically can not predict that effect balance too much to really say
and you can't fix everything with mods because of how limited they are in eternal

[alpine robin]

What changes or additions would you want to Eternal.
If it's just small pacing or progression fixes, that does not warrant a whole new game

[feral plover]

And here's the main thing that made me realize this is how I feel about it - I tried out Brutal Doom, and while I don't care for it nearly as much as vanilla Doom and won't revisit it much, I understand why it has the staying power it has. And the fact it's so popular means there is an audience for returning to classic Doom under a modernized context.

[solar crown]

i'd say that making all weapon mods balanced is more then a "small" change because some weaponmods can physically not be balanced with how they are designed

early game progression aswell, it requires too much to just make it a "simple fix"

[alpine robin]

I'm sure if you gave the devs a couple months on Eternal they could fix those issues you have. Without making a new game

[clever bear]

I’d love to use an Eternal Snapmap to try making more mazy levels with nasty traps and good secrets in the vein of the early games with Eternal mechanics

[solar crown]

and, in case you have severe Alzheimer or didnt care enough to read what i said, i already said that in total it just barely wouldnt warrent enough to make it a full sequel

[feral plover]

And then in the same vein, like...

I'm sorry, but Classic Doom isn't perfect. There is merit in revisiting and reinventing. I'd be all over a revisiting of Doom 2 that changes the shit I hate about it.

[alpine robin]

Sorry mate, no need for the insults, this conversation is getting hectic.
This is all friendly discussion now because we all love doom.

[feral plover]

And like - I get that community mapping exists. And that's awesome! But I don't think that means there isn't potential in an AAA release.

[mint plinth]

Another thing to add to the new game, Invasions. Im still butt hurt

[alpine robin]

A slower paced game would fit invasions better IMO

[clever bear]

That still strikes me as Battlemode but Worse

[mint plinth]

some people liekd battle mode

a official ranomized mode would of been great for Eternal as well. The mod that tries this proves my point if you ever played it

[clever bear]

I’d much rather the multiplayer component be its own thing instead of interrupting the campaign. I’d love a randomizer mode. I’m on console though so I can’t play mods

[mint plinth]

well invasions were always optional. Leaked strings told of different levels of invasions - so you could choose how often your campaign was interupted

[alpine robin]

Yeah I think the conversation was kinda going nowhere.

[reef bolt]

Honestly though it would be neat

[earnest current]

the next game should bring back deathmatches

[zealous trout]

next doom game should have a new game plus where if you play on nightmare or anything higher you get ridiculous enemy mechanics

even more ridiculous than eternal's

[alpine robin]

Just make it so enemy spawns are different, like the classics

[mint plinth]

i agree, difficulty should just be more than a damage increase. Still a random mode would be best for NG+

[frosty ridge]

i have a better new doom idea like the origins of the doom slayer (not doom guy i know they are the same) when he was stuck in hell for eons like not a history game because i don't have a idea of and history maybe more like an horde mode style or COD zombies style but fused with doom gamestyle

[zealous trout]

that just sounds like horde mode but in a cod zombies style

[elder viper]

We already know the Slayers origins. Doesn’t make sense to dedicate an entire triple A game to something we already know about

[frosty ridge]

bruh what did i just said

[feral plover]

i mean isnt that what a snap map should feel

full creativity over the game's assets. not limited

[feral plover]

A great snapmap would be taking features like Epic's Unreal Editor, Quake's Snapmap, and even Halo infinite forge with all of its amazing buildable assets for those who wanna build something cool than function

[open viper]

MP weapons should have upgrades, like one for the Vortex Rifle that damages anything near the target you hit.

[feral plover]

stuff like Script Nodes, TONS of textures over model blocks, asset models straight from Campaign, enemy behavior customization, Gamemodes, etc.

A snapmap this advance would increase a game's longevity and community engagement

[feral plover]

a Doom remake would be very cool considering theres a lot they could do as long as it connects. Going backwards isnt rlly a bad idea.

Not to mention adding that Modern Doom gameplay into the old

[feral plover]

also i dont really see this as a bad thing considering Doom Eternal feels like it already gives closure on its own

a New Doom game would be entirely a new story rather than continue. Same as a Doom 1 Remake that can also introduce a new story similar to Old only reimagined

[feral plover]

in addition to a Doom 1 Remake could hold more content and also improve off Eternal's gameplay with more freedom in a primitive 1992 game

sure it can "retcon" certain areas but there arnt much very Important plot devices that impact Eternal and 2016's stories besides a few details.

u can play 2016 first and still be comfortable whats going on.

[mint plinth]

yah im mind boggled by that comment.

[mint plinth]

there is a story about the slayer during the sentinels. They could make the slayer even more powerful with all his arsenal, at least until he gets metroided by the cultists when placed into the tomb

[mint plinth]

a remake for the classic trilogy, maybe under a different studio. I would rather have Id work on new doom games.

[open viper]

I hope in a future game, they bring back 2016's MP weapons, those were sexy AF

[solar crown]

Well i mean if you want custom enemies that's fine, but a regular ass mancubi shouldnt just for example have 3x HP and have a raygun that does 300 damage

[clever bear]

I’d love to work with really weird enemy variants like specter hell knights or cybermancs who drop purple goo instead of acid or giving the riot guys a slightly improved version of the shotgunner’s attack

Also yes these examples being really evil is intentional

[solar crown]

true, but they shouldnt be regular looking enemies then, their new abilities should give them a fresh coat of paint

[clever bear]

Sure. Like a new color set or texture set or something

I 100% meant new enemies using existing ones as a template

[alpine robin]

Yeah no just from this channel alone, I can tell the next Doom game is going to divide the community.

[solar crown]

Can't be worse then eternal

[alpine robin]

It won't be, but it'll be different, that's what worries me. Eternal is so good, I really don't see how they can improve upon the formula.
The next Doom will feel different from 2016 and eternal

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the sense it's something we need to at least consider

[solar crown]

The next game will be a new game???? 🤯

[alpine robin]

I know right!

[solar crown]

After eternal i bet the amount of people that will whine the game sucks solely because of personal preferences not being highlighted in a niche will atleaat be lower

[alpine robin]

You're probably right

[solar crown]

So it will be less then eternal likely

[woven siren]

we got divided over the suggestion of a doom 1 remake

[solar crown]

that wasnt really in "will it be good" but rather "is it really neccesary and should ID even waste resources on that?"

[woven siren]

THIS

[alpine robin]

Would it be good?

[solar crown]

i dont see ID making it bad

[woven siren]

that depends on if they make it good

[solar crown]

but i do think it at best would be wasted effort, much better to make something actually unique and not limited to OG doom

[feral plover]

?

lmao what does that have anything to do with the game.

We are talkin abt snapmap

[solar crown]

yeah? and i was saying that normal enemies shouldnt be touchable except where they are placed

[feral plover]

And how does that affect snap map that is totally up to player’s creativity how their maps are

Doom 2016 already has u customizing enemies

[solar crown]

how that.....
yeah if you arent literate i'm not gonna bother trying to explain basic english

[feral plover]

We are talkin abt snapmap

[feral plover]

meh

if ur a toxic dumbass sure

If Id software just keeps doin whatever they do. Doom could never die

One of the best ways to actually maintain a solid community is to not be so Purist over nostalgic features that arnt big to the grand scheme of things

And rather actually see a game inprove

unless the game itself just ends up as redfall.

[short mantle]

id software produced games are the only one i would and do pre-order.
They are the last bastion of developers who actually love what they are doing.

At least if we talk triple a

[solar crown]

in AAA atleast
i'm happy to take my silksong

[feral plover]

Triple A gaming are the friends we made along the way

[solar crown]

corperations can never be friends

[feral plover]

the egirl on bo2 lobbies should text me back. its been 11 years

[short mantle]

[feral plover]

shit it has been 11 years

Anyone else use cod releases to measure the time

[alpine robin]

true. guess I'm just used to COD outrage and stuff

[feral plover]

As a halo fan i am eternally angry so i get that

[woven siren]

easy access to changing enemy stats is a recipe for disaster honestly

[feral plover]

ye but its a community map. Just do whatever u want

[woven siren]

custom enemies is obviously fine

but it should be obvious they're custom enemies

you can completely fuck over the game's balance with a few tweaks in the map editor, that's bad

[solar crown]

a normal mancubi shouldnt be utter RNG how many shots it takes or how much HP it takes off from you. it should be identical to the ones you meet in basegame.
if you want something different, you're free to have a blue mancubi for example with different stats, but that's it

[feral plover]

i get that but like im not really going into a snapmap thinking im playing normal doom all the time. Having to customize demon behavior is cool enough not to mention the amount of work for someone going in the first time and having to make their own enemy.

Sure u can just highlight it and say its an empower demon or whatever the issue is but to be real if the map is Bs dont play the map is the way i see it.

[woven siren]

yes, amount of work should be taken into account

that's a barrier to entry that we need

imagine a simple slider for HP and damage values, that would be fucking busted

[feral plover]

I mean that be pretty cool to have a health bar over a demon now i think abt it

a nice preference for a custom snap map ig.

[alpine robin]

A new snapmap should split maps into 2 sets.

Those that follow the general rules
and those that change stats and game values.
a good way to satisfy everyone

[feral plover]

I mean we are just talkin full creativity not putting a player’s fun into account.

[woven siren]

now what do you do with something that makes slighter changes like valiant

[feral plover]

If u wanna take a player’s fun into account then put the effort.

Im just asking wtf is the problem im not denying “custom enemies”