classic-doom

[sick yarrow]

yeah for sure, the music really makes it, you should try stewboys other stuff too

[crystal hill]

such as?

I've played Speed of Doom

as well as Plut 2

[sick yarrow]

oh nice, heartland is the big one though, the midis are top tier

[crystal hill]

that's on the list

at my current pace, I'll probably play it near the end of the year

meanwhile I'm slogging through a 20+ hour Doom RPG and massive slop maps

[median cloud]

pl2 been so long man I should replay it

(and finish map 29)

Don't think I can accurately rate that wad right now, maybe memory is decent enough but eh

I wonder if I will give a map in Scythe 2 an S

Honestly might be map 25 (whenever I beat that one lol) or map 30

[sick yarrow]

map 27 is probably the strongest contender for that

[sick yarrow]

save your bfg for the afrits on 25, they're the real run killers

[median cloud]

ah I meant 24 actually

[sick yarrow]

ah yeah my bad, 24 is definitely s tier material too

[median cloud]

I did beat 23 yesterday and loved it

That used to be map I considered nearly impossible in the past haha

[sick yarrow]

nice one, what clicked for you? save some cells for the next map's finale

[median cloud]

I play pistol start so no saving

And clicked in terms of beating it or liking it?

[sick yarrow]

both really, did you find a solid strategy for those archvile rooms

[median cloud]

The only real archvile room I can think of is the one when you enter a building with a couple of hell knights in them

I just managed to push through them

The actual strategy I used was not taking the berserk at the start of the map and rocketing the revenants in the distance

and I loved it because it was pretty tight, action packed and not too long

[woven swallow]

IWAD: Doom2.wad
PWAD: Ozonia.wad
Download link: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/ozonia
Complevel: 9
Sourceport: Prboom+
Author: Tomas Soreas

[sick yarrow]

ozonia is sick, definitely stick with it for the atmosphere and music

[crystal hill]

I played it once, when it came out, but something didn't work about it for me

[woven swallow]

Ozonia was actually my 5th ever custom map i've played when first hopped into doom custom maps and mods,

Tomas Soreas's map design and midis are absolute top notch

replaying it in 2026 right now

[sick yarrow]

nice, if you like tomas's style you gotta try plum after this

[median cloud]

Has anyone played Hellcore 2.0?

[sick yarrow]

hellcore 2.0 is such a throwback, the atmosphere in that one is wild

[crystal hill]

I have

[median cloud]

addicted to the map 4 midi (also used in sunder 09)

[crystal hill]

It prioritises visuals and architecture over gameplay

nice to look at, sucks to play

[urban trench]

You guys were right, Sunlust is constant suffering.

[storm tapir]

Dare I ask what might've given another impression about it

[sick yarrow]

lol that gets everyone, the aesthetic is basically bait

[crystal hill]

lots of people cite it as one of the best/their favourite wads

which makes it seem more accessible than it is

[storm tapir]

I double check whether I am really interested in finishing a mapset when I hear the sound of +3 spawners blasting 24/7

[urban trench]

Nothing 😄

[sick yarrow]

lol sunlust is brutal, the later maps are actually insane

[urban trench]

It is very well made and I'm enjoying the pain.

[sick yarrow]

that's the sunlust spirit, map 29 is where it gets really crazy

[crystal hill]

it is very well made, and I enjoy it more than many other hard wads I've played, but ehhh

[urban trench]

Not even close to that one yet!

[crystal hill]

i dont hate myself enough to love sunlust

[sick yarrow]

fair enough, just watch out for map 15 then, that one is a nightmare

[median cloud]

Okay I beat Scythe 2 map 24

Not sure if I like it more than 23 in terms of pure combat but the aesthetic and the midi does alleviate it a lot

it's definitely easier than 23 thats for sure

Still tough tho

3 more very tough maps to go

[bitter shoal]

the 20s are when the difficulty design starts to vary quite a bit in how it decides it wants to be difficult

[median cloud]

I mean 24 is still harder than anythint else prior

Just not as hard as 23

I wonder if Scythe 2 is the hardest of the classic hard wads

I.e. av, pl2, hr, sod

[bitter shoal]

I mean the general "approach"

what I mean will be obvious when 26 hits

29 is pretty different as well

28 is pretty memey compared to 27

[atomic dust]

I started playing the xbox 360 port of Ultimate Doom
the first truly good port of Classic Doom imo

[languid quarry]

Are there any Wads with really good combat sequences or custom NPCS?

[halcyon willow]

E1M3 is the goat of Doom 1 maps, alongside E4M1 and E4M2.

[tiny ocean]

PSX is decent

ive been playing the PSX port and that one is cool

[bitter shoal]

yeah PSX is the first actual good port. SNES probably would have been if it had better controls

[tiny ocean]

I wanna get the snes port

[tacit tendon]

What's y'all top classic doom games

Ngl number one for me gotta be doom 64

I love doom 64's chaingun design

[torpid yacht]

Doom 1

[halcyon willow]

Doom 2 and Doom 64

[coarse lotus]

Doom ‘93 for story, Doom 2 for vibing

[woven swallow]

doom2

[tacit tendon]

Doom 2 is good but like you get easily tired of it when you play it

Idk why

[tacit tendon]

1. Doom 64 2. Doom '93 3. Doom 2

[coarse lotus]

I got bored even with a Doom 2016 mod. I think I skipped to the Icon around the middle after the Wolfenstein levels

[woven swallow]

final doom so bad it's not even on the list....

[tacit tendon]

Doom 2 breaks my head ngl

I'm tryna finish doom in chronological order

[coarse lotus]

Dead Simple rocks tho

[tacit tendon]

Like it deadass confuses me

[tacit tendon]

Didn't play final doom yet so I can't judge

[coarse lotus]

I played doom 2 years ago also doing it in release order before eternal tag.

Just a week ago I was trying to remember where things went in the city levels

[woven swallow]

really? i mean sure, some maps might but most is really not that bad or confusing (to me at least) even for my first playthrough

[tacit tendon]

I'm doing it by story timeline

Doom 3 isn't canon to the main story so I'm just playing it as an extras

[coarse lotus]

Doom 3 is different in a good way, though having monster closets in true 3d doesn’t work as well as doom 1-2

[tacit tendon]

Sigil maps look cool af

[halcyon willow]

Plutonia is the best iwad, but I don't personally count it as an "official" port/release (yes I know it was adopted by id)

[tacit tendon]

I love doom 3's dark and scary look

[finite crag]

Im playing Doom II rn

[median cloud]

It's the best Official Doom map imo hence why I gave it an "S"

Midi - amazing, layout - amazing, good combat and set the standard for secret hunting

[crystal hill]

None of the classic maps stick in my head anymore. Hanger is neat, I like Map 1 of TNT, and Twilight in Plutonia is pretty atmospheric and a good challenge

[bitter shoal]

IMO if it were me I would make the term "officially endorsed" rather than merely "official" especially since there are more commercial products not made by the original iD team (or unofficial but also officially endorsed stuff like SIGIL) than there are ones made by them but that kind of language usage does not change easily if ever.

[crystal hill]

I think you can have official games without them having been made by the original devs

[bitter shoal]

yeah I agree but it seems what people consider official or not tends to be really nebulous

[crystal hill]

Zelda Oracle of Seasons and Ages were made by Capcom, not Nintendo, but are always considered official

[bitter shoal]

I think it is because we got stuff like TNT and Master Levels that it becomes weird.

[crystal hill]

the Final Doom box refers to itself as part of the Doom series

I imagine the Master Levels does similar

[bitter shoal]

(I personally consider Final DOOM and DOOM 64 similarly in regards to how official they are- they are all mapsets that are designed by not-iD but are held close to the main IP)

[crystal hill]

they're both official classic games to me

not being made by ID isn't really a factor

[median cloud]

Aren't all iwad's just official?

I guess that would mean neither Sigil nor NRFTL would be iwads

[crystal hill]

NRFTL surely has to be official, Sigil is a little more murky

its a similar situation to TNT, except Sigil was adopted after it's release

[median cloud]

still I think Toxic Refinery is pretty legendary 🤷‍♂️

Sure objectively it's not the best doom map ever made

[crystal hill]

Sacrament has a pretty massive moodswing from maps 1 and 2 to the rest

The first two tie into what Russian Doom does best, I think - deep, dark atmosphere. Especially map 2. I never thought I would love a map with next to no combat in it, but it manages it

But then the rest of the wad is "standard" doom with bespoke textures and some mildly spoopy things here and there, but they play like any other doom level

[median cloud]

Think after Scythe 2 I've beaten pretty much all classic hard wads

There are some maps I still need to finish mainly from pl2 and sod

wonder if I can even distinguish them in terms of difficulty

[crystal hill]

congrats

[median cloud]

It's hard in general to gauge difficulty because resource starvation maps are maps I usually give a lower grade even though I die multiple times on those

Scythe 2 map 14/15 each took me like 3-4 tries, same for map 24 gaia's temple

but I gave the former a B+ rank and the latter an X- lol

Maybe I'm too influenced by mtpain as well

[crystal hill]

Did one feel BS while one didn't?

[median cloud]

It's rather just one felt like genuine difficult fights you need to the strategize around

The other was more like "oh I took a random hit here and don't have health left"

Map 24 had this one fight where if you push a switch like 10 archviles spawn in which was cool to deal with

Map 14/15 was just accumulated damage

[crystal hill]

is this an enjoyment ranking or difficulty?

[median cloud]

difficulty!

[crystal hill]

I feel like difficulty because fair balancing and difficulty because BS are equivalent

[median cloud]

enjoyment ones are easier to grade because it's just personal

[median cloud]

Yeah but it does make grading things harder ig

[crystal hill]

I guess

[median cloud]

Like if I grade maps by how much I've died on them I can revisit my entire grading haha

[crystal hill]

well, you need to take your own skill into account. And how you feel when playing that day

this is why I wouldn't like ranking maps I've played like that. Too much to think about, when I'd rather just be playing the next one

I already spend a good bit of my free time editing the doom wiki, I dont need another project on my hands, lol

[median cloud]

well I don't edit a doomwiki and I'm a stat nerd so trust me I don't hate doing it haha

Spending like 30 mins beating a map and then 10 seconds to apply 2 grades is not too bad

[crystal hill]

things like these have contributed to burn out, for me

[crystal hill]

applying them is fine, but thinking about and considering them takes longer

[median cloud]

This was more the case for rating maps I've played a long time ago

going off of memory is tough

[crystal hill]

even recently played ones

[median cloud]

Yeah you're right

[crystal hill]

How does the map I just played compared to the others in the set?

[median cloud]

Augur zenith rating was not easy lol

[crystal hill]

I can tell you which maps in Sacrament are good and which ones arent pretty easily, but if I had to rank them I'd need to really consider it

giving them an individual rating would be even worse

[median cloud]

That's true it's really easy to create ranks for outliers

Even a top 3 best/worst would be more doable

[crystal hill]

I'm glad you like it, but it's not something I'd want to do for myself

[median cloud]

but rating middle of the pack maps is tough

[crystal hill]

that's something I do with the cacowards, as a little event for myself when I finish them all

[median cloud]

like the difference in rating between fava beans e1m4 and e1m5 is just ??? they're all so forgettable and easy

[crystal hill]

the best ones are easy, they're usually the ones on my list. Narrowing down the worst ones is more tricky

[crystal hill]

ranking wads against other wads is more practical imo

[median cloud]

For enjoyment sure, for difficulty definitely not haha

Unless you compare like the 3 hardest maps

[bitter shoal]

I thought map24 wasn't any less fair than the other ones, but I used saves liberally

For the most part Scythe 2 I felt was pretty deliberately designed, a lot of it was puzzle like

[crystal hill]

I place a lot of emphasis on the hardest maps in the wad

[median cloud]

I enjoy the Scythe 2 mappack a lot

[crystal hill]

without map 30, Scythe would be a very managable wad overall. With it, it turns into a pain

[median cloud]

Map 23/24 were standard hard but not "this is bs"

[bitter shoal]

I think it was clear the last few maps were pretty quirky, too hard to top 27 as a final map.

[crystal hill]

ehhhh

Map 26 would have made a nice finale

[bitter shoal]

well I mean in terms of coming up with stuff after it

[crystal hill]

27 feels too standard, and the cyberdemon fight at the end always pisses me off

[median cloud]

Hes talking Scythe 1 ur talking Scythe 2

[bitter shoal]

Oh

[crystal hill]

I don't love either Scythe 1 or 2, but both ended up as the best wad of their respective years for me

[median cloud]

Scythe 1 is solid, latter half is actually pretty challenging
Scythe 2 is amazing atm, one of my favorite wads I've played

Great combat, great atmosphere, pioneered the episode style wads basically and does it really well

[bitter shoal]

yep

[median cloud]

current maps are really hard but in the fun kinda way where you feel satisfied and good about yourself for winning

[bitter shoal]

I think I still prefer Plutonia 2 and maybe even PRCP2 but it was very good

[crystal hill]

I've played Scythe 2 twice now, maybe three times, and it just doesn't click for me

[median cloud]

pl2 is great but I haven't played it in so long

[bitter shoal]

but also I remember really liking a Pluotnia 2 map and ifnding out Erik Alm made it later and I was like "oooh"

[median cloud]

that map 20 was crazy and took me forever to beat

[crystal hill]

I like the variety in locales but most of the maps aren't very appealing

[crystal hill]

never too late to make a Comeback

[median cloud]

nice pun

[crystal hill]

thanks

I always think it to myself when I replay the wad

[median cloud]

Maybe I'll do it after Scythe 2 but overboard is on the list as well

[bitter shoal]

is Overboard one with the mohawk doom guy

[crystal hill]

since it was one of, if not my very first wads I ever played, it always feels like I'm seeing an old friend again whenever I play

making a "Comeback"

[crystal hill]

no, Overboard is a Cyriak mapset

[crystal hill]

I hate to slander Plut 2, but Overboard should take priority

[bitter shoal]

also I keep thinking of the weird Kurt Russel and Goldie Hawn movie

gonna need a Pirate DOOM follow up with Captain Ron now

[median cloud]

I think thats Ray Mohawk

[crystal hill]

I'm excited for Pirate Doom 2, after really turning around on the first one

does it also have the alt fire sabre that propels you forwards?

[median cloud]

There's also those D2INO, D2IRO mappacks but they don't appeal to me completely yet

Eviternity is also smth I could revisit, played that in 2019

[crystal hill]

D2INO is skippable imo. Unless you really want more Doom 2 styled levels

[bitter shoal]

Pirate DOOM 2 wasn't my favorite wad admittedly, it takes awhile to get going and if you were into the GZDOOM stuff Pirate DOOM had, the sequel is lacking them (it went vanilla)

[median cloud]

I do like the idea of an improved D2

[crystal hill]

well. It has some pretty good Mouldy maps in it

[median cloud]

a part of me also wants to play old Sunder

[crystal hill]

Gotcha! in particular has a very Cyriak feel to it

[crystal hill]

oh dear dear

I'm not a GZ purist or anything, but some of PD1's effects were really cool

again, that sabre swing that made you go forward was great for cutting out backtracking

[bitter shoal]

It is a good casual wad though if you aren't looking for something mega difficult, but yeah it doesn't have the same custom weapons. Saber is just melee and you have a rotary gun instead of the dual pistols.

[crystal hill]

darn

well, I'll get to it eventually

[bitter shoal]

I enjoyed it once it hit its stride but yeah, it feels lacking compared to the first until that point

[median cloud]

I guess the next level in terms of difficulty after Scythe 2 has to be sunlust

[crystal hill]

probably. Have fun

[median cloud]

which I dont want to play at all

Maybe I go deus vult 1 & 2

[crystal hill]

I didnt even try Deus Vult

I already dislike large maps, and Deus Vult is the patron saint of massive maps

Jade Earth is an exception because it's relatively gentle, especially at the start, and the atmosphere is to die for

[median cloud]

I would play 01-04 over the complete Deus Vult map

[crystal hill]

even those are quite winding

[median cloud]

I am in a maxxing mood and I do not want to max that big map

[bitter shoal]

I was gonna say... but then I assume it is the open areas that are a problem

[crystal hill]

map 1 of deus vult took a speedrunner 15 mins to beat

[median cloud]

yeah but 1 is an easy one relatively

I might've beaten that one before

[bitter shoal]

what category?

[crystal hill]

maybe I can replay it in 2043 when I finish the cacoward wads and all the other crap I've decided to play on top of it

UV Max, what I always play for

[median cloud]

Like Eviternity map 19 is way longer

the uv max record there is 41 minutes

[crystal hill]

oh christ, I am not ready for that

I can at least give it a try. Hopefully it doesn't kick my ass too badly

[median cloud]

It isn't a super hard map iirc just a very long one

There's just one cybruiser near the end that teleports behind you which ended my run on that map first try

[crystal hill]

Stuff like Fomalhaut and IC2005 are also very long, and I managed those... just about

[crystal hill]

I think I'd just say fuck the map and resurrect after a trick like that

[median cloud]

Just don't backtrack too hard when you see that enemy he tp's far behind you

iirc

[crystal hill]

hmm

I do tend to back up when I see enemies

[median cloud]

esp if you're 40 minutes into a run and are up against an enemy with a rocket launcher

[crystal hill]

yeaaaaaaah

I hate cybers for that reason. Instant death, screw you

[median cloud]

same ancient aliens map 23 I died to that cyber in the last fight

Is maybe why that map is my least favorite in ancient aliens

[crystal hill]

it definitely is for me

long ass map, the combat isn't great, I had to backtrack a lot

grey dwarf comes close, but it gets some leeway as a secret map and being smaller

[median cloud]

ah yeah I hated playing through grey dwarf

I just had this feeling of wanting it to be done asap

[crystal hill]

same. And the second secret map isn't great either

the secret maps are probably the biggest low point of Ancient Aliens. At least map 16 is next

[woven swallow]

https://github.com/Helion-Engine/Helion Underrated

[crystal hill]

whats different about this port?

[median cloud]

I agree map 32 isnt that good either

[crystal hill]

its fine, but it just doesnt feel like a secret map

[median cloud]

Damn thos benchmarks are pretty crazy, but I play dsda doom capped to 120

[woven swallow]

extremely optimized

supports vanila, boom, mbf, mbf21 and partial support for UDMF (zdoom stuff) and the new ID24 complevel for legacy of rust

[crystal hill]

i guess its useful if you need that

[bitter shoal]

I was like "maybe if you are playing Sunder or another wad with a framerate killing map" but then I saw it is the first benchmark lol

[crystal hill]

@median cloud MtPain isn't charging for another Patreon cycle. I dont think Season 4 is coming any time soon

[median cloud]

Dang man is really done with Doom huh

[crystal hill]

I think the future videos, if/when they come, will be more focused on the artistic merit of maps, rather than how fun they are to playu

[median cloud]

He did say he had like 9 videos planned and was working on some

Its too bad I really liked his channel also thought it was of really high quality

[crystal hill]

that was back in december

[crystal hill]

maybe it's getting to be too high quality

theres no quick and simple wads he can or wants to play now

[median cloud]

Like even the way he described the maps was very professional and thought out

I think it's obvious he wrote an entire script per video

[crystal hill]

indeed

but I guess that wasnt enough for him

[bitter shoal]

I always hear a lot of YouTube creators talk about how time consuming video editing is so bigger projects are probably especially taxing

[median cloud]

he had a pretty wicked schedule as well

[crystal hill]

Covid was a thing, he probably had a lot more time

[modern peak]

alright so i got done with doom zero, very fun wad, though it seems to kinda fall off near the end

not because of the boss, the last levels just werent very interesting

[bitter shoal]

Unfortunate

[modern peak]

not sure which wad i should try next, theres a lot of options

[crystal hill]

what're you looking for?

[modern peak]

i might go with either btsx or eviternity

[modern peak]

idk just something enjoyable but not ball bustingly difficult

im not that great at this game

[crystal hill]

Going Down is an easy recommend

[median cloud]

Eviternity or Ancient Aliens. They both have their moments but aren't ballbusting. If you've finished Plutonia you can handle those.
Atmosphere wise they're also incredible

[modern peak]

ive tried the first 3 levels of aa and it just wasnt my thing

[crystal hill]

when was this?

I was in a similar position as you - I played Ancient Aliens many times, but this most recent playthrough was my first time playing/beating every level (except 23 but that one suck so it doesnt count)

[modern peak]

.

[crystal hill]

when did you play those three maps is what I was asking

[modern peak]

then

[crystal hill]

brain fart, my bad

so recent. Ok, probably not worth pushing through then

[modern peak]

ill give going down a shot, though not sure how much of a difference there is between it and the turbo version

[crystal hill]

turbo is easier

it's made to be sped through, hence the name

[woven swallow]

Ozonia

Play ozonia

[rare fiber]

How do i link my switch account to my id account for classic doom 1 and 2 mods?

Their isn't a option

Nvm figured it out

[median cloud]

u know what I'm gonna play Eviternity again

if I don't wanna grind scythe 2

[median cloud]

Scythe 2 map 25 is hard as balls man

[crystal hill]

Figured. Thats why I nevet bothered trying it

[modern peak]

i kinda wish we will see vassagos from lor again in tda or smth

it would make so much sense considering how similar they are to fireborn barons and how well they would fit the games theme

[storm tapir]

@median cloud scythe 2 harder than HR2 and KS?

[halcyon willow]

Hell Revealed is more grindy (and tbh, nowhere near as good as Scythe 2). I recall Karma Sutra (assuming that is what you are referring to) being easier than Scythe 2

Scythe 2 gets pretty spicy in the last 3rd

[crystal hill]

Kama Sutra has some evil maps, but they're the exception rather than the rule

[halcyon willow]

Scythe 2 is on par with Speed of Doom, albeit with the latter leaning more heavily into full slaughter maps

Twilight Massacre my beloved

[crystal hill]

really? Speed of Doom feels more managable than Scythe 2

I've beaten every map of the former except 32, but I haven't beaten the last 7 or 8 from Scythe 2

[harsh iron]

[brazen spruce]

someone ported doom on a pregnancy test

[bitter shoal]

yep

[halcyon willow]

Depends on what style you prefer (you'll get better at things you enjoy), but the general consensus is that they're of a similar overall difficulty.

[median cloud]

I've never really played HR2 and for Kama Sutra I stopped at 28 which is pretty infamous

I had a tendency to lose spirit when I got to more challenging and harder maps

For 25 however I think I got it down next try, going yellow skull key and getting BFG

probably would've finished it yesterday if I wasn't hungry for stray cyber rockets

[median cloud]

I've played speed of doom until map 23 which is also pretty infamous for being really hard

But I think on average SOD is easier. Scythe 2's last stretch is really tough with pretty much 5 maps in a row that are top difficulty (for classic hard wads)

Either way I do believe if I can beat Scythe 2 I can beat all of these classic hard wads

[median cloud]

I think all those packs are of similar difficulty but always had the idea that Scythe 2 was the hardest one of these.
Maybe tied with HR2

With the likes of PL2 and AV being one step lower

The toughest map I've beaten yet is also a hard choice to make. I did struggle with HR map 26, but I played that on chocolate doom.
I also struggled with Scythe map 30, but the struggle might've looked bigger due to the length of the map.
I also might've just improved since then

[crystal hill]

I have to keep looking up maps you mention, because I remember names and aesthetics better than numbers, lol

Oh yeah, Poison Ivy II. If you go at it without a plan/guide, you are cooked like dinner

With a plan/guide, its merely a pain in the ass

But the great thing about Speed of Doom is that after every Joshy ballcrusher, you get a nice helping of Darkwave to destress

Until he also starts making his maps super hard, then you're fucked

[median cloud]

Im not really sure what other SOD maps I consider truly hard

MAP 32 is pretty insane (pyramid one)

[crystal hill]

Its the only one I havent beaten

I'm sure I could, with a guide, but I never considered it worth my time

[crystal hill]

Most of the latter Joshy maps are good picks

[median cloud]

It's a cool map tbh not too long and gives you that feeling of accomplishment

[crystal hill]

I dont like slaughter to begin with, and this is just outright slaughter

[median cloud]

thats true

bfg spam the map

[crystal hill]

I enjoyed map 32 of Alien Vendetta because I got to theory craft my way to victory

I looked at the insurmountable map in front of me, trial and error'd multiple ideas, until I broke through. Now THAT was a feeling of accomplishment

[median cloud]

I feel like thats the case for most hard map

Weird how you dislike the other ones so much then

or rather find them not worth your time

[crystal hill]

Depends on a number of factors

[median cloud]

Some hard maps are annoyingly difficult but plenty are like that you named

I think AV actually has some of the annoying difficult ones hah

[crystal hill]

You're under siege in Map 32 of AV, but your starting location is relatively safe

So you can get a feel for the situation and dig yourself out of it slow and steady

I'm praising this map over SoD's, but I prefer SoD overall to AV

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1376790283274162206/1474340760659820635/doom03.png?ex=69997e55&is=69982cd5&hm=8003c25e06fdf73364b88223dfba92e5db3f309a99799117ddf14efc851c1731

IWAD: Doom2.wad
PWAD: Magnolia.wad
Download link: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Magnolia
Complevel: 09
Source port: Prboom+ UMAPINFO
Author: Ribbiks

Okay first of all, this has to be one of the best first maps i ever played, Ribbiks has to be one of my favorite mapper of all time, probably in my top 10 even, he is absolutely clever on how to create gimmicks and implement them very well into his maps. If you like hard maps, with gimmicky fights, massive non linear map exploration and puzzle solving, Magnolia's first map is made for you

[modern peak]

man going down turbo map28 is kicking my ass

[woven swallow]

slaughtermap?

[modern peak]

yes

waiter waiter!!!! more revenants please!!!

[cunning bough]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-waiter-patrick-star-drunk-sugar-rush-gif-9319818

[woven swallow]

i did not know you could post G.I.Fs here

[crystal hill]

you'd hate to see the original, then

[modern peak]

probably

[languid quarry]

I just finished Myhouse.wad, what should I play next?

[elder sage]

Wow

[woven swallow]

Liminal doom and Liminal doom 2

[modern peak]

alr so i got done with going down turbo, it was decently difficult, my lack of experience with custom wads definitely made it much harder than what people made it seem, but it was still pretty fun

now question is which wad next

[crystal hill]

in the future, you should try the original for a challenge

[modern peak]

was thinking btsx but i heard it gets pretty repetitive

[crystal hill]

I think its better than turbo

[crystal hill]

I'm a BTSX disliker and can confirm it gets very repetitive quite quickly. The 2nd one less so, but I still didnt finish it

[modern peak]

maybe at some point, but i mostly went for turbo as it was designed to be faster and i prefer wads that dont take too long to go through

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1452632530061627434/1474737325295538296/doom04.png?ex=699aefa9&is=69999e29&hm=6bd23d4098245b4ba8816aed4f04d52d101dafcad16f9566af33168a000c4a17 peak

[crystal hill]

you played auger zenith before?

going down and auger are my two favourite vanillaish wads

[modern peak]

nah ive only done doom zero and this so far

and scythe almost

im leaving map30 for when i get good enough to do it

[crystal hill]

understandable, that thing is brutal

[modern peak]

i could try out auger zenith

[woven swallow]

you should, it's awesome

[crystal hill]

I love it to bits

still a while until I'll let myself replay it though

[median cloud]

Scythe 2 map 25 is also donee

[median cloud]

Its a very hard map thats for sure

[mellow matrix]

Moonblood and Ozonia 1 & 2 could be up your alley. Moonblood is around DooM Zero difficulty and almost all of the maps are short and sweet. Typically less than 100 enemies and 3-7 minutes to beat. The Ozonias are still short but take a lot more cues from Plutonia in terms of difficulty.

[crystal hill]

if you like hybrid FPS and platforming/collectathon games, I can't recommend Golden Souls 1 and 2 enough

arguably not classic Doom, but I need to shill my favourite wads whenever I can

[median cloud]

Scythe 2 map 26 is also in the bag

had to use a route for this one and it still feels a bit rng

[bitter shoal]

was that one "Death"?

[median cloud]

Yep

Now only afterlife remains

28-30 arent as hard

After playing these maps I really do feel like playing some normal maps for some casual playthroughs now lol

[bitter shoal]

one of them is normalish but it is also grindy like a SIGIL 2 map...

but tht is also saying more about SIGIL 2 since I'm comparing it to a map 29 in a wad that gets super hard

[median cloud]

never really bothered to finish sigil 2

surprised its that hard

[bitter shoal]

It's basically Romero tryign to adopt the Plutonia mindset but also not really giving you rocket ammo for the enemy set

[crystal hill]

which would be fineish in Doom 2 with the SSG. But its not Doom 2

[bitter shoal]

if there is one mapset you shouldn't try for UV Max it is SIGIL 2

[crystal hill]

have you played sigil 1 before? sigil 2 is a different beast

[languid quarry]

Are there any good Horror Wads aside from Myhouse

[crystal hill]

there's a lot

Reconstruction / Decomposition, Comatose, City of the Damned:Apocalypse, The first two maps of Sacrament, 5till L1 Complex

Maybe also Legacy of Suffering and Strange Aeons if those count

[woven swallow]

Ghoul forest, after doom, Pink valley, Hurt, unhinged.....that's all i know

[crystal hill]

Ghouls Forest is just jumpscares

[median cloud]

Okay scythe 2 map 27 is something else

Up until now most fights felt in my control to do but 27 not really

[bitter shoal]

Vytaan doing a rehearsed run helped. His route is good.

and I doubt there is a better use of invuln than what he does with it

[sharp veldt]

First episode is like 21 maps long and pretty decent overall. Second episode is cruel and like 25 maps long iirc, also much more varied scenery

personally i enjoyed them but 2nd episode may get exhausting because of the shit it pull sometimes

[crystal hill]

for the first time in a long while, I'm going to replay the first three eps of Doom 1

[median cloud]

I beat map 27 of Scythe 2!!

I think it might be the hardest doom map Ive completed yet

[crystal hill]

you're beating them pretty quick

[median cloud]

Have a lot of free time today

Took me a lot of tries

[crystal hill]

even in the last few days

[median cloud]

eh I never really needed invul for that trap

cyber cant go up the stairs

I used invul at the start to push plasma rifle, j4rio run

[median cloud]

Yeah I beat all of the super hard ones now

I loved all of them tbh I think Erik Alm really does hard maps well

[crystal hill]

Maybe one day I will give them a proper go

but that day is maybe a year or more away

[median cloud]

They're really tough tbh

Afterlife II was crazy hard

bit burnt out now haha but the next map is an easy one

[crystal hill]

I want to beat Scythe Map 30 and the Mucus Flow before any other hard maps

[median cloud]

I wonder if Erik Alm called it afterlife II because Afterlife is a hell revealed map

both are my favs maps of the pack but I think it will be a while before I revisit both haha

[sacred dagger]

Does anyone know how to get this sphere in doom 64 ? Every walkthrough video i look at they just run and get it but i can never make it

I put it in screenshots they wont let me put it here

[crystal hill]

@median cloud Toxin Refinery is pretty fine as a level. I appreciate the 1000 bullets and chaingun I got from a secret, made the combat less shotgun reliant

[median cloud]

Funny how you talk about a super classic level like its your first time experiencing it

[crystal hill]

hey, its been a while.

[crystal hill]

have you played doom on the kex engine?

Playing Doom 1 on it feels... off, somehow

[hollow tree]

you can only hold 400 though

I have been playing Ultimate Doom : One with PB on UZDoom after watching a video from Martinoz about it. Currently on E2M5

I got a weird crash error in E2M2 when fighting some cacos

[hollow tree]

well I can't seem to reproduce the crash

[mighty walrus]

@tacit tendon So after you kill the cacodemons on that bridge area, jump down and then go straight through. Turn either right or left and go up the elevator thing, kill the imp, press the button behind it, then quick go down and to right other side up that elevator, kill the imp, then press the button. Jump down and go straight. There will be a spider but you can ignore it and just go to the right. Boom, done

[tacit tendon]

I'll copy paste this and put it in my notes thx

[mighty walrus]

yep, I can do the map and clip it again too

[mighty walrus]

I killed everything already but the spider. Forgot if you go to the right of it through the portal then it leads you to the soulsphere. It's been awhile since I've played this map. But yeah hope this helps. Turned off sound since I was in a vc.

I retraced my steps so you know where to go

Also, you can ask questions about specific games and tag me or ask whoever in the dedicated channels. Doom I, II, 3, and 64 can be in here (classic), the rest of the channels for each game are self-explanatory.

[native anchor]

Kinda feels cool that the expansion pack for Doom II is called Master Levels, and then Doom 64's KexEngine port has Lost Levels.

It's almost poetic.

[stuck badger]

Are there any discord servers for general doom mod discussion and sharing?

[woven swallow]

not to my knowledge

you could discuss about mods here

people talk about stuff like that

here

[crystal hill]

there's also #classic-doom-maps-mods

[stuck badger]

Ok that's fine. Yeah I've been lurking in the maps and mods channel

[median cloud]

At map 29 of scythe 2, seems like I have one more hard map to power through lol

28 was a breather just bfg spam

[crystal hill]

I'm most of the way through Episode 3 of Doom 1. This game has a chronic chaingun shortage

[little creek]

Hey guys i am at the spider demon fight but i lost all of my weapons.... do i still have hope?

[twin mortar]

Yes

If it's the E3M8 one then it'll be a bit tough but it's doable, with E4M8 it's piss easy

[modern peak]

i mean every level was made for pistol start

[bitter shoal]

not E3M1

[crystal hill]

just get the shotgun in one of the later rooms

[crystal hill]

E3M8 is easy if you gather all the cells from the ledge and infight everything

[median cloud]

Alright Scythe 2 is finished, I struggled a lot more with that final map than I thought I would

[modern peak]

should i just start pistol starting the wads i play from now on so i can try to get better at the game

afaik most wads are designed around it

[median cloud]

Yeah Id advise you to do so

Its how most wads are intended to be played

[crystal hill]

very good idea

teaches you health and especially ammo management

[median cloud]

@modern peak try to pistol start some Doom 2 maps. You will be surprised how different they play and in some cases how hard they become

[modern peak]

https://tenor.com/view/jetstream-sam-my-beloved-gif-22029076

i might, though if i will go back through the original games i might just turn on fast monsters aswell

[crystal hill]

don't, not if you pistol start

both pistol starting and fast monsters change the way the game is played quite drastically

get used to one or the other before you do both

[median cloud]

@modern peak I agree with @crystal hill uv fast makes the game a different type of game

Idk if you’re experienced with Doom or not but dont underestimate some doom 2 maps

Pistol starting requires routing in some maps, uv fast requires more passive play

@modern peak try Doom 2 map 08, 10, 23, 24 on pistol start. They can be pretty tough

[finite crag]

Classic Doom is so good

[woven swallow]

https://youtu.be/t8G6GVoKXxc?si=KVbznJCHHeaws_Mq

[tacit tendon]

Yo can someone help me find the yellow key in doom II map12

It's the Factory map

[crystal hill]

bottom right corner of the big indoor area

[tacit tendon]

Thx

[fathom needle]

what can't run doom

[little oar]

A pregnancy test

[coarse lotus]

Those IBM computers that helped us to the moon.

Then again, those University students who made Spacewar and Tennis for Two might have something if they had more computing space

Wait. Old computers used paper punchers for math stuff. What about 60’s IBM computers making sprites with those?

[glass bone]

I got doom + doom ii on steam on my laptop and there is some absolute visual nonsense going on, theres fuzz and static all over the screen, and the majority of the screen is black, but the ui is completely fine

[desert tinsel]

doom 2 deathmatch in 10 minutes. Find the server on gamedate now with instructions if interested

[glass bone]

Disablng vsync may have fixed it

[torpid yacht]

Eviternity map32 took me 1h41min.
Has to be the biggest map I've played

[true charm]

https://tenor.com/view/doomguy-evil-grin-gif-20903082

[tacit tendon]

1 hour on a classic Doom map is diabolical bro

Max takes 20 minutes

[glass bone]

Nah

[torpid yacht]

Almost 2 hours

It was a blind run

[crystal hill]

Only map ive played thats that long (and completed it) is jade earth

[median cloud]

Eviternity map 32 is that long, it's why I haven't played it yet haha

[crystal hill]

I'm half looking forward to it, half dreading it

[median cloud]

Rest of Eviternity is class

Might replay it soon

Anyone know any maps that have a cemetary and nail the vibe?

I know Scythe has burial grounds and there's another mappack that has a cemetary map that I really liked but I can't remember which one it was

[crystal hill]

Unfortunately, it only got awarded in the 2019 cacowards, so thats a month away still, if not more

[wintry copper]

oh jeez that's way too long lmao

[median cloud]

@crystal hill did TNT Revilution have a cemetary type map?

[crystal hill]

Dont think so

I remember a map I played that could fit the bill, but I dont remember where it was from

[median cloud]

Damn really wonder where I found that one map

[crystal hill]

Ohhh, yes. Theres map 28 from Nova II

Also city of the damned apocalypse, but thats zdoom so it might not count

[median cloud]

I'm thinking a map less grand

Like burial grounds of scythe

[crystal hill]

I dont remember many maps from wads I play

I can't, when I go through them as quickly as I do, lol

[median cloud]

Ahhh I found it haha

Memory pointed me towards Nostalgia

Nostalgia map 16 is the one I was trying to remember

[crystal hill]

How ironic

I dont think Ive played that one before

[median cloud]

It's a really good break wad

Pretty much Doom 2 level of difficulty but the maps are way better and prettier

[crystal hill]

Well, its on the cacowards 2022 list

Hopefully I can get to it before the end of the year 💀

Every year's cacoward ceremony is bigger and more filled with stuff than the last

[median cloud]

Yeah it's a rough assignment you've given yourself

Nostalgia is a breeze but I actually really liked it

There's also a nostalgia 2 maybe I play that

[crystal hill]

A 90s year took me no more than a week to get through. Now I'm lucky to get a late 2010s year done in three weeks

[crystal hill]

I guess so, but its well worth it. I've found some very good wads by doing this, and had an excuse to reevaluate old ones

[median cloud]

Just listened to the season 3 grduation vid of mtpain because I know he covered nostalgia 2 there and man u can hear in his voice how down he sounds

[crystal hill]

Oh?

He covered it, like mentioned or did a full review of it?

I need to watch the graduation vids, lol. I never felt the need to for whatever reason

[median cloud]

mentioned

[median cloud]

They're fun for stat nerds he re-reviews some maps there and changes the grade

[crystal hill]

I see. Guess he didnt like the direction it went?

Or did he sound down because burnout was really getting to him?

[crystal hill]

Gonna be a pain to try and integrate that on the wiki, lol

[median cloud]

This

[crystal hill]

Thats a shame

I imagine forcing himself to play wads twice before review contributed greatly to burnout

I adore Going Down, but if I had to play it twice in a row, my enthusiasm would surely fade

[median cloud]

I really think it's his schedule

He played wads twice, wrote an entire script for the video (which is obvious by the way he talks that he wrote a script). Recorded footage from his gameplay, edited it and then published the video at a rate of 2-3 weeks per video

[crystal hill]

Or lack therof, now

[median cloud]

For reference I started Scythe 2 on 14/02 and finished it yesterday at 22/02. I think my pace was pretty high even but that's more than a week for 1 playthrough of the mappack

I do have a fulltime job I'm not sure if he does or doesn't

Either way if I upped my pace I would probably be burnt out from Doom.

He also did PL2, HR2, Scythe 2 in a row

It's unfortunate since he was my favorite youtube channel

[bitter shoal]

that is how I felt with Coincident, one of my favorite speedrunners (not just DOOM, actually in general because of how informative his content is) but his being burnt out was quite a loss

[crystal hill]

Thats a metric ton of work

Hardly a wonder why he stopped wanting to play Doom for fun

[median cloud]

decino is also away but thats not burn out but rather him having a kid

u still got Vytaan ig

[bitter shoal]

yeah Vytaan and A1s

[crystal hill]

MtPain was also my favourite Doomtuber. I dont like watching people just play the game (unless I need a guide), so him reviewing wads was the reason I watched (and still do)

[bitter shoal]

decino didn't seem too burnt out last I checked, having a kid is just life

(and that probably helps against burn out if anything)

[crystal hill]

I've found that playing two wads at once, and having them be different to each other helps a lot to avoid burnout

Though right now I feel a bit burn out due to how much and how long I've played GZDoom stuff, rather than plain old Doom, lol

[bitter shoal]

I'd just end up forgetting about one if I tried that, I have a pretty one track mind

[crystal hill]

The Inquisitor III, City of the Damned, and now Golden Souls II

Way too much GZDoom for right now

[crystal hill]

I have both tabs open on the wiki to keep track

I'm a bit of a stats nerd

[bitter shoal]

oh wow I actually played some Inquisitor III

if you are still continuing it I might opt to try and finish it

[crystal hill]

Ehhhh

It took me over 20 hours to beat

I played it as one of my first wads, in my early years of Doom. As a dumbass who couldnt run it well, I didnt get far. This time now was my first time ever finishing it. It was maybe worth it, but man did it take a long bloody while

Invest in wisdom early to make it easier on yourself

[median cloud]

Funny you mention that, the first pc I played golden souls on would crash because of the mappack haha

[crystal hill]

Mine played it fine enough, I think

Otherwise I wouldnt have the overwhelming nostalgia I do today

[torpid yacht]

Theres one map like that in BTSX 2 secret map

2h40min. Its what it took me only on the 2 secret maps of eviternity
And the level that I had to find the secret exit took me 40min.
3h30min. On 3 maps and i didnt have to restart much since it wasnt that hard n got so lucky in the fights.

(Restart from last save)

[crystal hill]

well, I'm not a big fan of BTSX 1 or 2, so I didn't get to it

[storm tapir]

Fire king says no cheating? or theory of circles

[glass bone]

Itd be cool if there was a level creator built into doom + doom ii so console players can try it out

[crystal hill]

its hard to get the hang of it on mouse + keyboard

[languid quarry]

I still don't fully understand UDB

[crystal hill]

yeahhhh, it kind of does that

luckily it's maybe the most beautiful doom map ever created, so you're gonna have a good time while lost

I typically don't like maps that are more exploration/atmosphere focused than combat focused, but that's an exception

god I love that wad

you havent finished it?

ahh

you probably will replay it. It grows on you, that wad. I can't express how much I adore it

good way to practise

[torpid yacht]

Its theory
Fire king has like 3k monsters i think but took me a shorter time.

[glass bone]

I cant see it being too difficult if the ui is translated well

[torpid yacht]

It was my first modern wad n had a blast
Played it on uv n uv+ fast monsters no saves pistol start

[crystal hill]

A controller doesnt have as many keys as a keyboard. You also dont have a mouse

[crystal hill]

To each their own

Both, but especially the first one didnt make me keen to keep playing. Levels felt samey very quickly

[upper crypt]

Doom I + Doom II still broken 🙁

Can’t play any new WADs

[crystal hill]

That sucks. Are you on PC?

[upper crypt]

PS5

It keeps saying “There was an unrecoverable error. Returning to the main menu.”

[crystal hill]

I dont know anything that could help, unfortunately

[storm tapir]

I like BTSX2 but maps like theory of circle need all afternoon if you have no idea what you are doing.. actually saw it take hours even online during zandronum days

[glass bone]

This doesnt matter

[crystal hill]

It does in fact matter

Harder to operate = less people will want to use it = less point porting it over

Especially because PC players already have map tools

[torpid yacht]

Maybe memory is full? Or uninstall n install the game
Im on ps5 n have no problems

[crystal hill]

Me when I need to place down 200 lines with a control stick

Making an in house mapping tool and porting it to consoles would be a lot of work

it would be nice to have, certainly, but thats gonna take dev time to implement

[glass bone]

If you make the ui properly it wont be an issue

This would take like 3 seconds max

[crystal hill]

I doubt it

again, fewer buttons = harder

[glass bone]

Theres several games with level creators on consoles

[woven swallow]

Wait what? It does, you have far less keys for certain actions if you're on a controller

[crystal hill]

UDB has so many features that would need to be assigned to something

[crystal hill]

so what?

[glass bone]

If you make a properly converted ui lack of buttons wouldnt be an issue

[crystal hill]

several games isn't Doom

got any ideas on how to do that?

[glass bone]

It is actually, 2016 has one

[crystal hill]

classic Doom

Doom 2016's is a lot more limiting on what it lets you do than UDB for example

[woven swallow]

Just because they have it, doesn't mean classic doom can have level editor compatible with controller

[glass bone]

I fail to see how it would be so impossible

How do you get the map maker on pc

[crystal hill]

I fail to see how it would be so possible

[woven swallow]

Like classic doom mapping isn't just drawing lines and connecting them together....

[crystal hill]

I don't think it is

I think this guy just underestimates the complexities of doom mapping

[woven swallow]

Yeah...2016, not classic doom

[glass bone]

This isnt impossible on console at all, and you can change certain functions to make it easier, like have grids or something

[glass bone]

Really? I had no idea

[crystal hill]

so you'll get really shitty and square-y maps

[glass bone]

You vs clarifying

[crystal hill]

which kind of defeats the purpose of a level editor if you can't edit the levels

[woven swallow]

If I remember, all you do is place down pre-made rooms, right? I could be wrong

[glass bone]

Not necessarily, theres other things you could do

[crystal hill]

oh, really?

you seem to know a lot about a level editor that doesn't exist

[glass bone]

Uh huh, if you recall i said “grids or something” not “grids, only grids and exclusively grids”

[glass bone]

You vs a hypothetical

[crystal hill]

You vs making an argument

[crystal hill]

so, grids or something. How about the texturing?

you'll need to bind one of the few keys you have to apply textures automatically, or shift them around a bit, or make them uniform

[glass bone]

I dont think youd need to bind all of these to individual keys

[woven swallow]

How about this: how about you try to I guess map the keys out for a level editor for the controller?

[glass bone]

What?

[glass bone]

All youre doing is going “lol stupid”

[crystal hill]

so how will you differenciate them?

when will the X button change textures and when will it change to linedef mode?

[glass bone]

You could do button combos, you could have menus, you could have a select that changes binds

[crystal hill]

glass houses

[crystal hill]

which would be either complicated, clunky, or both

[glass bone]

❌❌❌

[crystal hill]

Oh, well I guess I've been overcome

so much for making arguments

[glass bone]

What is with #YouPeople and being like This

[crystal hill]

you ever use a PC level editor? It's real complex even with mouse and keyboard

What's "YouPeople" mean?

if you're going to insult me, please be specific

[woven swallow]

Like the default controls, if doom+doom2 gets an editor and console players were able to make maps, what do you think the controls be? Like uhh, the right joy stick can zoom in and out for example, something like that

[glass bone]

No, ive used console level editors in a few different games

[glass bone]

Left joystick pans around right could be a cursor X/A could be a select and place

[crystal hill]

oh, so you don't know what you're talking about, then

absolute comedy

[glass bone]

Dont see how you got an insult from that

It must be true if you were insulted

[crystal hill]

#YouPeople is an insult. You're insinuating that I'm a certain group of people, and that that is a bad thing

[crystal hill]

let me just vaguepost a bit to make myself seem more clever than I really am, that'll show em

[woven swallow]

Let me make this clear: just because those games have level editors and are compatible with controllers, that doesn't mean classic doom level editor can

[glass bone]

Yeah, the group being douchebag pc users

[woven swallow]

Like it is way more complicated

[glass bone]

None of you have clarified at all on how its more complicated youve just said it is

[crystal hill]

you must not be able to read. What a tragedy

[glass bone]

Trust me bro its impossible to use a controller for anything bro its impossible bro just trust me

[crystal hill]

there are fewer buttons

you don't have access to a mouse

[glass bone]

And that doesnt explain hownits more complicated

[crystal hill]

????

fewer buttons means you need to have one button do more things, or cycle between more things

[glass bone]

Did you know: consoles have sticks, which do the same thing as moving a mouse

[crystal hill]

factually untrue

try playing a first person shooter game on PC vs console

[glass bone]

And thats excruciatingly simple

[woven swallow]

I won't deny it won't work, I'm just saying.... it's gonna be janky as hel6

[glass bone]

Same thing

[crystal hill]

maybe

[woven swallow]

If it were to implemented

[glass bone]

And im saying if its ported properly it wouldnt

[crystal hill]

I don't want to waste my time on those kinds of people

I'll go back to playing Golden Souls 2. Nearing the end now, after almost 10 hours 💀

[woven swallow]

you kinda are Mr McGee

[twin mortar]

You can use mouse and keyboard on console btw

Level editors can still release on console with that in mind

[glass bone]

Ofc

[crystal hill]

Kind of am what?

[thorny nest]

I’ll bet that if a console-“””compatible””” level editor for classic doom did exist, then Gonk Droid would be here complaining about how bad it is using similar nonsensical arguments

[glass bone]

Doubt it

I love level making

[twin mortar]

I don't see why

[crystal hill]

I've moved on from the conversation

[woven swallow]

I thought the whole argument was "Can a controller be compatible with an editor like Ultimate doom builder?"....

[glass bone]

A bluetooth keyboard and mouse is like 50$ a pc is like 1000$

[glass bone]

It was sparked by me saying itd be neat if they added a level editor to doom + doom ii so console users can try it out

[woven swallow]

I honestly wish there was for them, it'd be cool to see what they can cook up

[crystal hill]

that massive level pack included with the master levels?

I wouldn't bother. 1994 wads are near universally crap

[thorny nest]

Isn’t that one of the older expansions released in the 90’s

[glass bone]

Id certainly like to try it

[crystal hill]

there's a few playable ones in the pile of stinkers, but its not worth sifting through the piles and piles of excrement

not that I blame the creators for that. The tools back then were primitive and no one had level design knowledge, except ID I guess

Time of Death might've

he seems like the masochistic type

[thorny nest]

I sometimes find it fun looking through old DZONE discs. I know ill never find anything quality, but there’s occasionally some mildly entertaining maps and the READMEs are always fun to look at

[crystal hill]

if you're diving in for a historical curiousity, then it becomes a lot more worth it

[thorny nest]

People would straight up put their real names and addresses in READMEs, it’s crazy how the internet has changed

[woven swallow]

This, I should really play them now, I still have both of them, collecting dust In my doom wad folder

Any wads you suggest?

[crystal hill]

the only good 1994 wads I can remember playing are invasion 2, trinity college, uac dead, the evil unleashed, and crossing acheron

aliens tc as well, maybe. I need to play that with a port that isnt gzdoom

[median cloud]

whats your favorite 90s doom wad

[crystal hill]

Plutonia

[median cloud]

boo give a better answer

pwad

[crystal hill]

if that doesn't count... ehhhhhhh... Cyberdreams, or Dystopia 3

[median cloud]

No Icarus, Memento mori or hell revealed?

[crystal hill]

both of those I am unsure of, after having played many wads since then

[woven swallow]

No Requiem?

[crystal hill]

Icarus Alien Vanguard was very solid. Memento Mori 1 kinda sucked (MM2 was better), Hell Revealed was really fun. For the first third

[crystal hill]

that would likely make the top 5

[woven swallow]

Ayy nice

[crystal hill]

Other stuff I ranked highly include Trooper's Playground, Mordeth, Chord 1, The Darkening, Chord G

[woven swallow]

Have you played Eternal doom before?

[crystal hill]

unfortunately, yes

I love nothing more than backtracking down long, empty corridors looking for the next objective/small group of enemies to kill

[woven swallow]

I was gonna ask if it was good...

[crystal hill]

(I am a liar)

[crystal hill]

it's quite well regarded. Not by me though, lol

[woven swallow]

I mean...how bad could it possibly be?

[wintry sable]

I love it

[crystal hill]

it was my least favourite wad of 1997

I really, really did not like it

[woven swallow]

Is that a zdoom mod?

[wintry sable]

I go poof now

[crystal hill]

Icarus Alien Vanguard and Evilution are in competition for my favourite Team TNT wad

[woven swallow]

Ohhh Embers of Armageddon

Yeah i know that

[woven swallow]

I will try it out to see if it's actually that bad, if you get a random dm from me, and if I sent you a picture of an empty wine bottle, it's a way of me saying that I agree with you.....

[median cloud]

Oh yeah Requiem is 1997

Mordeth is that good?

[crystal hill]

Requiem feels like Memento Mori 3 to me

[crystal hill]

it's pretty decent

[woven swallow]

Haven't heard of that

[crystal hill]

I got lost somewhat frequently, but the fights are above average, and visuals are some of the best of the 90s

if you like 90s era wads, Mordeth is a solid choice to play

[median cloud]

I should play the chord series as well

Started DV2 a bit but not feeling it

[crystal hill]

And then get mad that the creator, despite being active to this day, STILL hasn't made Mordeth Ep 2

[median cloud]

same for restarting eviternity

[crystal hill]

you should

all except for NG, I think, range from decent to very good

[woven swallow]

I'm on the hunt for some good 90s wads lately, will look into it

[crystal hill]

yeah, Chord NG. That one sucks because you start off in a room with slow ass elevators that take you where you need to go

I do not enjoy waiting around for literally nothing

[woven swallow]

Or just...90s wads in general, doesn't have to be the best of the best ones..

[crystal hill]

do what I did, and play all the cacoward winners from the 90-s

[languid quarry]

What are the best Cacoward winners, I see too many Wads on Doomworld and Mod.db and I cannot pick just one to play lol

[woven swallow]

.... didn't it start in 2004?

[crystal hill]

I have a whole list handy for this very purpose

[crystal hill]

technically, but there's a "proto cacowards" article that lists the best 10 wads in each year, from 1994 to 2003

[woven swallow]

Eviternity2

[crystal hill]

Going Down

Plutonia 2
Skulldash (Expanded Edition lowers this by at least a position or two unfortunately)
Golden Souls 1
Ancient Aliens
Speed of Doom
ZDoom Community Map Project "Take 2"
Alien Vendetta

Community Chest 4
Plutonia
Megaman 8-Bit Deathmatch (up to Mega Man 6)
Pirate Doom
Comatose
Action Doom 2
Valiant
50 Shades of Greytall
Chord 3
Hellbound
Vanguard
Lunatic
Jade Earth
Epic 2
Mayan Mishap
Shadow of the Woolball
Rise of the Woolball
IC2005
Strange Aeons
Cyberdreams
Whispers of Satan
Waterlab GZD
Legacy of Suffering
The Given
The Eye
Frozen Time
Disjunction
Return to Hadron Ep 1
Khorus' Speedy Shit
Reconstruction / Decomposition
Dystopia 3
No Chance (on HMP)
UAC Ultra
Breach

the higher up the list, the better the wad. Each wad is in a "tier" as well

[languid quarry]

Massive list number 3 I guess lol

So Going down is the best?

[crystal hill]

Hey, you tend to get big lists of good wads if you've played 23 years of cacowards

[crystal hill]

yeah, it's the best/my favourite wad I've played so far

minus those I've played previously but haven't gotten to yet - specifically Golden Souls 2

Auger Zenith also goes in the top tier, but I think lower than Golden Souls 2

[languid quarry]

Going Down

Plutonia 2
Skulldash (Expanded Edition lowers this by at least a position or two unfortunately)
Golden Souls 1
Ancient Aliens
Speed of Doom
ZDoom Community Map Project "Take 2"
Alien Vendetta

Community Chest 4
Plutonia
Megaman 8-Bit Deathmatch (up to Mega Man 6)

So I should start with these?

[crystal hill]

Golden Souls really surpassed my expectations

[crystal hill]

Yeah, if you just want the best stuff

fyi, a bunch of these require GZDoom, if that's an issue

[languid quarry]

I tried finding it but I couldn't find it

[crystal hill]

not golden souls, I'm an idiot. Going Down

[languid quarry]

It's not, That's the main version of doom I use

[woven swallow]

Sent you a Dm

[crystal hill]

is that your list of favourites?

send it over as well, I wanna have a look lol

[languid quarry]

Lol I came in to this server expecting to get like 5 or so wads from each user, I've seen over 100 different wads already 😂

[crystal hill]

I've played a shit ton of Doom, in the past and especially recently

[woven swallow]

Cacoawards winners I liked

Eviternity2
Lost civilization
Sigill
Sunlust
Fractured worlds
Magnolia
Stardate20x7
Sunder
Ancient aliens
Neon overdrive
Auger zenith
Lullaby
Breakpoint
Godnite
Amalagoom
1x1
10x10
Preacher
Ozonia

[crystal hill]

a lot of the stuff on my list are wads I haven't played until now

[languid quarry]

I didn't know GZdoom was a thing until like January

[crystal hill]

a lot of these I haven't played yet, because I'm really behind the times on wads

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1376790283274162206/1465022036287160330/Screenshot_2026-01-25_230421.png?ex=699dd318&is=699c8198&hm=1c25071c9b763a161bc0782445017be0cc676bcd9f8b68d43f2f30c090724c32& look at my files

[crystal hill]

anything post 2019/19, I'm very unlikely to have tried

[languid quarry]

I actually never modded a game before late 2024

[crystal hill]

awww, mine's only 20GB

[languid quarry]

I only have Myhouse, Voxel and Brutal lol

[crystal hill]

it's good to expand your horizons

[woven swallow]

Baby steps for now

[languid quarry]

I tried Aliens Eradication as well along with Beautiful Doom

And I had to get the IDFKA soundtrack

Aliens TC for some reason refuses to work for me

[crystal hill]

it doesnt work on GZDoom

[woven swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1376790283274162206/1465626883621261333/Screenshot_20260127_150745.jpg?ex=699e0c27&is=699cbaa7&hm=3a2260a6866a045ab3bee0ef74f5b921fa3a4c064ebe0f342dd1794eeeb0e047&

[crystal hill]

Sigil and Auger are the only things from here I've played and not ranked yet

[languid quarry]

Which one do I need then

[crystal hill]

I recommend DSDA Doom or Woof

[languid quarry]

I have no idea what those are I'm still really new to doom mods

[crystal hill]

understandable

maybe pass on Aliens TC for now, then

[woven swallow]

Now this is where you learn what compatibility levels are

[woven swallow]

I can guide you through most of them

[languid quarry]

I think I'll stick to GZdoom for now

[woven swallow]

Switch to Uzdoom

[languid quarry]

Is that similar?

[woven swallow]

Explaining almost non vanilla doom sourceport I have because I'm bored, brief summaries btw

Zdoom - Plays very well for low end computers, still pretty good to play on even til this day, cant load up newest mods....which is to be expected

Rzdoom - fork of zdoom ... that's all I know

Lzdoom - Gzdoom but for low end PCs, can play most of gzdoom/Uzdoom mods pretty well, also has a custom difficulty called unholy massacre

Qzdoom - Gzdoom but adds new features to test them out before implementing them into Gzdoom, it's the most dead zdoom port

Gzdoom - Ai generated code

Uzdoom - Not AI generated code, forked under A, disables Texture filtering by default, no more salty member

Skulltag - Multiplayer zdoom... discontiuned

Zandronum - Multiplayer Old version of Gzdoom (before AI)

Zdaemon - multiplayer zdoom...but wait, a much more modified version of the original zdoom

Odamex - Zdaemon but tries to be a little more vanilla compatible, Hordamax is very fun wad (basically horde mode for classic doom), and also, Odamax is based off Csdoom (watch Dwar's Csdoom video to understand more)

Vavoom - 3d models....not good ones..in my opinion

K8Vavoom - visuals are amazing, if a mapper recommends for you to use this port to play their map, give it a spin

3dge - (how the fuck do you even pronounce this name?) the ui looks bad, the menu looks bad, everything looks bad....you will probably use this to play exclusive mods like duke it out in Doom or even Quake doom...and even then it has some jank here and there too

Edge classic - same thing BUUT, it tries to have a little bit more stricter vanilla comparability....I guess

Doomsday - vanilla but I want to mention it cause of it's very customizable rendering setting, it's very good, check it out ....only for vanilla and limit removing mods btw ...

[crystal hill]

🤓

[woven swallow]

To answer your question quickly, yes it is similar

[median cloud]

NG is the hard one right

[crystal hill]

(just kidding, I admire the dedication)

[crystal hill]

that's Chord 3

it is my favourite, because I am a masochist it is the most tightly designed

you need to learn how to play it, and how to converse health and ammo

[woven swallow]

Y'all know what Rzdoom is?
✅ Yes
‼️ hell nah

[median cloud]

hard dificulty pre-slaughter

[crystal hill]

essentially

the dean of doom gave it an A+, which I think is fair for a first time player

[woven swallow]

Magnolia...

[crystal hill]

it's a ribbicks wad. I'm afraid I'm allergic

[woven swallow]

A GOOD ribbiks wad

[crystal hill]

I've had mixed experiences with him

[woven swallow]

A PEAK tier I'd say...if you like gimmicky ass fights then... probably not

[crystal hill]

Sunlust is generally fun, as fun as it gets with him on a whole wad basis

He's contributed single maps to projects I've quite liked, because they don't want to sodomise me

[crystal hill]

well, thats a 2018 cacoward, so I'm actually going to get to that very soon

Is it hard on HMP?

[woven swallow]

HMP is the default

There is no UV

[crystal hill]

I know that. But is it hard on HMP?

Compared to something like Sunlust

[woven swallow]

1st map, A+ difficulty

2nd map, C- Difficulty

3rd map...I haven't played it yet

[crystal hill]

oh dear god

[woven swallow]

I heard Map 3 combines both of map 1 and map 2

Sooooo there's that....

[crystal hill]

yeah. This uh

doesn't sound like my idea of fun

[woven swallow]

And map 1 took me like almost an hour to beat sooo

[quasi saddle]

[crystal hill]

I'm not looking forward to it, lol

[median cloud]

tbh Im not sure what wad to play now

[crystal hill]

I will play it, for sure, but... ehhhhhhhh

[median cloud]

I finished overboard really quickly as well and wanted to give dv2 a shot but ehh Im not sure I like dv2 that much except map 21

[crystal hill]

have you played Valiant?

[woven swallow]

Check your dms

[median cloud]

I cant remember really

How hard is it, like ancient aliens?

[languid quarry]

What's a really fast paced Wad

[woven swallow]

Blitz race against time is a fast paced wad .. literally

[languid quarry]

Something like Doom 2016 or Ultrakill speed even

[crystal hill]

a little bit easier, I think

it was a bit easier on 2nd playthrough than Ancient Aliens was on 4th or 5th

[crystal hill]

you're looking for speedmaps, I reckon. Khorus' Speedy Shit is a good place to start

[median cloud]

Nostalgia is also a good wad for fast maps

[crystal hill]

Adam Winsor's megawads are also generally very short, and easy, but I dont like them as much

[glass bone]

Almost done the master levels, just did express elevator to hell and bad dream

[crystal hill]

What do you think of them?

[mighty walrus]

(sips tea)

[crystal hill]

Hey, I'm just asking

[mighty walrus]

I know. I'm waiting also to hear

I have thoughts on TEETH but will wait first

[crystal hill]

I also have thoughts on TEETH

[glass bone]

The two i just did or the master levels as a whole?

[crystal hill]

Both, I guess

[mighty walrus]

The two you just did, and others if you've played them

[glass bone]

Bad dream was funny, elevator was not fun in the slightest, and the rest of the levels are about 50/50 being not fun at all or quite fun

[mighty walrus]

based

Aaaand I agree with all of the above, but maybe 75/25

TEETH is The Express Elevator to Hell btw, and I despise it

[livid light]

honestly i liked the idea of teeth, but i feel like the floors are mediocre at best

[mighty walrus]

@crystal hill Go ahead

[crystal hill]

TEETH is a gimmick map that overstays its welcome slightly

However, its a map in the Master Levels, which makes it one of the better ones in the set

[median cloud]

The elevator map is cramped and pretty damn hard

Hardest map in master levels

Secret exit is also bs

[crystal hill]

Bad Dream is pure gimmick. I kinda dont mind those sorts of maps, like Fortress of Mystery in D1

They go down quick

Titan Manor was my worst experience in the master levels. An hour spent fumbling around like an idiot trying to find what I needed to do

[glass bone]

Now that im searching my brain you might be right, i played most of the master levels a few months ago and stopped at titan manor so i dont really remember modt

[mighty walrus]

I could list at least five levels that make me boiling mad lol

[livid light]

yep, most of the stuff i remember about what i did was just running around like a dumbass for a while until i just looked up a guide

[mighty walrus]

They are worth giving it a go for sure just to experience them. I'm also a believer in you can only shit on a game (in your opinion) if you've played it

[crystal hill]

I forget if any other master levels bar titan manor really pissed me off, but I'll find out soonish on a replay

Overall, its easily my least favourite official Doom game (maximum doom doesnt count)

[median cloud]

Trapped on titan and bad tower are the best master levels maps imo

[mighty walrus]

I like the idea of Mephisto's Mausoleum but it could have been done better

[crystal hill]

For sure

[mighty walrus]

Just the thought of Elevator now makes my eye twitch still

[crystal hill]

I'm impressed how much better Plutonia is despite being only a few months younger

[mighty walrus]

Plutonia the beloved

I need to replay. It's been about a year

[mellow matrix]

I am also due for a Plutonia replay. Maybe I'll run through it after I beat the Blues Brothers 2025 finale. I'm going to need a break WAD for sure.

[glass bone]

Yeah ive done about 19/21 of them

[halcyon willow]

That's just the talent of the Cassali brothers. I've interviewed Dario, cool guy. He spent 2 decades at Valve as a level designer after making Plutonia.

[glass bone]

Trapped on titan took me 43 minutes to beat, longest ive ever taken on a level

[desert tinsel]

Odamex Monday Night Horde PvE starts in 5 minutes if anyone wants to join in. The app is free to use if you have doom 2 already.

[mighty walrus]

trapped

[thin stream]

I LOVE U

[crystal hill]

How fitting

[median cloud]

Tbf I dont have the patience for this. I looked up a guide to beat titan manor almost instantly

[crystal hill]

I think I'll do the same on my replay

[halcyon willow]

Longest any single map has taken me is Sunder map 19, coming in at a smidge over 8 hours

[median cloud]

I think I'll give D2INO or Going Down a shot

Started like 3 different packs but none seem to stick haha

Eviternity I just don't feel the pull atm (beaten it before)
Deus Vult II similar I really only want to play map 21 and that's a tough one
Nostalgia is fine but I was just using it to have something casual to breeze through

[crystal hill]

I think you know which one I'd recommend

[median cloud]

I'm gonna watch the mtpain vid of going down, will probably convince me

I like Mouldy as a mapper as well

[crystal hill]

that might be one of the few reviews of his that I think underrates the wad

Going Down is just that good

[median cloud]

Ive played it before but long ago and never finished it

so there's reason to replay it for me

But I do kinda want to play some original Doom 2 as well lol. Starting to miss the old midis

[crystal hill]

Doom II is relatively quick to play through

[median cloud]

yeah I could just play a couple of doom 2 maps and be done with it

[crystal hill]

MtPain didnt like Doom 1 as much as I thought he might

[median cloud]

Doom 1 has some horrible maps tbh

E1 is peak, E2 is mid, E3 is shit

[crystal hill]

I agree with him on the fact that E2 has some higher highs than Ep 1

E1 is probably better factually, but its more boring, partially due to how many people copied it for their own wads

[median cloud]

Doom 1's limited combat is also a big drawback. I was thinking about this yesterday but people really understate the importance of Doom 2's additional monsters.
We went from hitscan + 1 projectile to a combination of. Rapid fire projectiles, homing missiles, cross missiling, spawners and revivers

[median cloud]

I find E1 just fun, most maps you can mow down enemies and the chaingun feels really strong there. E2 has some "shotgunning baron" moments. I think E2 has some really good maps like E2M2 and E2M6. But I fucking loathe E2M5

E2M9 is also a meme

[crystal hill]

The greatest level designer in the world would struggle to compensate for the lack of many crucial enemies, and the SSG in DOom 1

[median cloud]

Doom would've died long ago if it weren't for Doom 2

[crystal hill]

for sure

[median cloud]

It's not like Doom 2 is abundant with monster variety either. It's still a limited roster but it's a solid one

Enough variation to create tons of different combat environments

[crystal hill]

on my list so far, I only have 1 Doom 1 wad so far

(Strange Aeons technically counts, but it adds so many different things its closer to a total conversion so it doesn't count imo)

[median cloud]

I've played Fava Beans and it's extremely forgettable

[crystal hill]

Sigil is definitely going on the list as well when I replay it, but I somewhat doubt anything else will join it

[crystal hill]

yeah, but it's also fairly solid

[median cloud]

Sigil I is probably the best doom 1 experience

[crystal hill]

especially for 1995

[median cloud]

Yeah it's not bad at all just forgettable

I'm sure a lot of people will say Hell Revealed is worse than Fava Beans but I remember the former a loooooooot more

[crystal hill]

well, memorable isn't strictly good

I remember Mock 2 very bloody well

[median cloud]

That's fair but not being memorable is also not very good either

[crystal hill]

ehhh

I've played wads I consider good that aren't too memorable

Khorus' Speedy Shit, UAC Ultra and Whispers of Satan

the latter two do have memorable moments, but overall don't stick in my mind

[bitter shoal]

Yeah, HR is very memorable. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have a seething hatred for Barons of Hell

[storm tapir]

Well if you want to change that just play Enigma or Eternal IV

Trapped on titan will feel like a tutorial compared to them

(Dare I say out loud that trapped on titan is one of the best master levels)

[twin mortar]

I like TEETH

[storm tapir]

Well.. it is a cool idea but the bs in that map is off the chart on a blind playthrough

[crystal hill]

I have finally managed to play back demo files