classic-doom

[median cloud]

Did swtw become a cakewalk that way?

[crystal hill]

Yes.

[median cloud]

And Id rather just use saves because sunder maps are so long

[crystal hill]

It was more tedious than tough, with the exception of that last fight

seems arbitrary

[median cloud]

Swtw seems pretty short

[crystal hill]

the UV max record is 19:22

the one for sunder map 3 is 9:35

[median cloud]

I mean for sure

But check out uv max of like map 15-21

16 is like 2 hours

[crystal hill]

well, I won't have to play those

[storm tapir]

What does the UV max have to do with this unless you are trying to speedrun

[crystal hill]

the missed cacoward is for the original version of sunder, which only has 14 maps

[crystal hill]

I use those for a rough guide on how long a level will take

every level is different, sure, but it usually works for me

[median cloud]

Ah well you can pistol start those

Theyre tough but not super insane anymore

Im planning them as well

If im not burnt out after scythe 2

[crystal hill]

Maybe. I honestly think I'll quit by map 8 at most

I played it a year or so ago and thought it was quite tedious

[median cloud]

8 is pretty easy

All the ones before that are somewhat short

[crystal hill]

tedious, not tough

[median cloud]

But yeah 9 10 11 take a while

[crystal hill]

its funny pairing this wad with Scythe X

[median cloud]

I think 6 is the toughest one or 5 because of the platforming

[crystal hill]

All of those maps are absolutely bite sized in comparison. Not to mention super easy

[crystal hill]

I sure do love platforming. Even more so in hard wads

[crystal hill]

@median cloud even with a pre fight save, I can't get past the cyberdemon and hell knight/baron fight in map 3

I'll admit when I'm beat. And I don't see much point in continuing after this if it only gets hardr

[median cloud]

I didnt know sunder was tougher than swtw tbh

[crystal hill]

There's a shit ton of barons and hell knights. All you have is a little bit of space, one cyber demon, a rocket launcher and plasma

and the arena gets refilled a number of times

I'm sure I could come up with a solution eventually - but I don't feel it would be worth it to do so. I still think later maps would be well outside my skill level

[median cloud]

I do think of 03 as a considerable step up compared to 01-02

But I think its still easier than most of the rest

08 might be easier

[crystal hill]

doesn't bode well for me continuing then

[halcyon willow]

SWTW is definitely harder, at least until you get to map 15+ of Sunder

[bitter shoal]

Scythe II Map 26 certainly lived up to its name!

And it having that custom enemy that is such a blatant OC in its design I can't help but adore it

I should look up the health it has (it is closer to Cyberdemon health than Baron), I can't imagine how rough it is to UV-Max this map instead of just making an escape route given the style of map it is.

[native anchor]

You know what's weird? In the Chocolate Doom Discord server, there's a text chat for Woof, even though Woof is based on WinMBF64 and not Chocolate or Crispy.

[bitter shoal]

Not that weird IMO.

Especially if anyone involved with Chocolate/Crispy DOOM happens to be working on it as well.

[woven swallow]

is probably because the dev for crispy doom, is the same dev for woof

[storm tapir]

Overclocked enemies is one way to sum up those overtuned menaces

[bitter shoal]

It is called an Afrit

2500 HP

[median cloud]

I thought so too

Early sunder maps have dropped off in difficulty despite being like THE hard wad in 2012-2015

[crystal hill]

Swim with the Whales is one map (technically 4 but the other three are quite easy)

[median cloud]

Ohh theres a chocolate doom discord server??

[crystal hill]

Beating Map 3 of Swim With the Whales meant I was done with the wad. Beating map 3 of Sunder would mean I would have 10 more, harder maps of Sunder to go through

[median cloud]

Hmm I understand that yeah

I've never really played swtw so I cant comment on it

the hardest map I experienced and finished was sunder map 31, but I did that with saves inbetween fights

Mightve also done it without autoaim and with mouselook but I cant remember that

@crystal hill not sure if I ever asked you this but do you have a favorite classic doom map?

[crystal hill]

dunno if that makes a map easier or harder. Some shots are definitely easier to make

[crystal hill]

just the PWADs or all IWADs?

[median cloud]

just iwads actually

[crystal hill]

so not the official doom wads, then?

[median cloud]

I think it depends yeah, window dressing is way easier with mouselook but I feel like splash damage or bfg usage is harder

but I really cant remember if I even played it this way

[crystal hill]

Black Ice from Plut 2 is my most recently decided favourite map. I had and still have a soft spot for Arch Violence from the same wad, and Glass Messiah from Auger Zenith is also amazing

[median cloud]

No the iwads are the official doom wads

I mean only the iwads, only the official ones

[crystal hill]

my bad

I'm not so sure, in that case. I usually say Twilight from Plutonia, but I'm not 100% on that. Either way it's gonna be something or other from Plutonia

[median cloud]

I just noticed I played Abandon in Zandronum so with mouselook. Sunder probably as well then

[crystal hill]

what's yours?

[median cloud]

Hmmm probably Courtyard, map 18 from doom 2

Monster Condo from Doom2, E2M6 from Doom 1 and 07 Prison from TNT are also up there

[oak adder]

that's an evil level

[crystal hill]

Courtyard is a good pick. One of the few times Doom 2 goes anywhere close to medieval on your ass

[crystal hill]

thats kind of why I love it, lol. Once you master the game its really satisfying to clear it

[oak adder]

starts off with chaingunners sniping you

rockets on them usually trims the hurt down

[crystal hill]

I like how it feels like a gauntlet, where you desperately take cover to avoid all the BS thrown at you

the secrets really help it go down easier too

[oak adder]

this level got me running to the exit

like a big spider near the end is diabolical

[crystal hill]

classic plutonia

I can see why some don't love it, but its the only classic Doom wad that's still able to challenge me at my current level

(Legacy of Rust notwithstanding due to its modernity and my not having played it)

[oak adder]

arch-viles behind walls to revive chaingunners

[crystal hill]

uhuh

to ensure you cant just get rid of them too early

[oak adder]

they do that as soon as the first level

[crystal hill]

yeah?

its meant to be a harder experience than Doom 2

[oak adder]

plutonia wants you to burn 😆

[crystal hill]

which makes it all the more satisfying to beat it

[median cloud]

Twilight is pretty easy if you know all the secrets tbh

Its way harder going in blind

like a trillion powerups in that map

[crystal hill]

I've beaten Plut 2 on UV pistol starting. Plutonia 1 is very managable

There was a convo about Go 2 It here a few weeks ago. I decided to play it for myself just for the hell of it, and I beat it first try

compared to Go 4 It and Have @ It, there were sooooo many megaspheres, you could make so many mistakes and still be fine

[oak adder]

I was not dealing with that spider at the end of twilight

[median cloud]

Go 2 it is just hard at first because of the corridors cybers u need to kill

takes a certain mastery of the bfg

its like why legacy of rust e2m6 is tough because you need to be decent with the calamity blade

[crystal hill]

and a mastery of killing cybers, or getting them to infight

I totally understand why people struggle so much with that map

[oak adder]

oh yeah im saving the secret levels for last

[crystal hill]

cyberden is fine. It's good practise for go 2 it and even future wads

[oak adder]

I did the same with evilution

[median cloud]

Yeah I think the same applies to LoR's difficulty, You have a new weapon you have 0 experience playing with and then it throws you into situations where you need to have decent timing with the weapon

the map probably becomes way easier once you've mastered or atleast gotten used to the calamity blade

[crystal hill]

oh yeah, lack of familiarity is gonna make any level of any game harder by default

[median cloud]

But thats also why I dont want to consider LoR harder than Plutonia

On average plutonia is definitely more difficult

LoR does have one ammo starvation map

[crystal hill]

Plutonia is also longer

[crystal hill]

the way I see it, one obscenely hard map can rocket up a wad's overall difficulty

Scythe is a great example. Easy for the vast majority of it, gets tough towards the end, the final map is utter BS

Because of that final map, Scythe as a whole has to get a pretty tough rating from me, because so what if you can beat the other 29 maps, if you cant beat 30, then you're screwed

[median cloud]

But Scythe has more difficult maps imo. Yes map 30 is incredibly hard but episode 3 in general has tougher maps. I struggled a bit on 22,23,26

And people say the run from it map is also hard

LoR has 2 hard maps in e1m6 and e2m6. Then a couple of medium-hard maps like e2m1,e2m3

[crystal hill]

sure, episode 3 is hard, but its not too much harder than plutonia

and thats only a handful of levels

[crystal hill]

its hard without SR50 or if you're maxxing

[median cloud]

Oh yeah I didnt max it, is it even possible to max?

I finished it by running and even that was somewhat tough

Honestly when it comes to pistol start I think Doom 2 is harder than Doom 1 E4

[crystal hill]

sure is. I've seen demos on the wiki

remember that lost souls don't count towards the number of enemies outside of ZDoom

[crystal hill]

same. Doom 1 suffocates you with shells, and Doom 2 is 23 levels longer than E4 of Doom 1

[mild abyss]

This may be off topic, but it is still classic doom, but on a local marketplace I found a complete in box 1993 mail-ordered version of doom on floppies, it arrived earlier today, I am soo excited to try it out on my totally 100% era correct pc

[crystal hill]

thats a nice historical find

[mild abyss]

It was cheaper than buying a monster energy drink too xP

I think it was worth it

[median cloud]

Refueling base, barrels o fun, the chasm are all pretty tough to pistol start

[crystal hill]

for sure

[crystal hill]

refuelling base is fine if you know about the shotgun right next to your start point. Other two are kinda tough

A.L.T is an impressive wad visually but its just not fun to play

The maps are quite maze-y and the enemy population is very thin overall

[median cloud]

Still low ammo and tons of pain elementals

[crystal hill]

low ammo? not with all the shotgunners around

[crystal hill]

@median cloud I was so close to beating Jade Earth single segment for the first time

but an ambush with like 3 or 4 arch viles got me, right near the end

its maybe my favourite long level in Doom, but I needed a save in the middle to get through it last time

[median cloud]

Never played it before

[crystal hill]

I recommend it

dont feel bad about using saves for this one

[drowsy beacon]

Managed to get a revenant missile to orbit me despite being completely stationary

[halcyon willow]

There are a handful that still stand out. Obsidian Nightmare, The Cage, Zealous Machine. I know some people say Hive Mother is up there as well but personally I found that not too spicy.

Actually Grinder is pretty nasty as well

[median cloud]

I remember in my playthrough 06 and 13 standing out in terms of difficulty

But I found 31 in itself already harder than everything old and thats like the easiest new sunder map I think

[halcyon willow]

I'd put Obsidian Nightmare above map 31, but generally yes. 31 is the easiest of the new Sunder

18 wasn't too bad either, but the rest are 6+ hour monsters

[median cloud]

Those are the two I actually beat haha

I found 31 harder than 13 tho but maybe not by a lot

I think 16 is generally considered the hardest one

[woeful patio]

playing Doom 1and in Phobos Lab i think
am i meant to walk over the green stuff and take some damage or is there a way around

[little oar]

You have to just take the damage and make a mad dash over it iirc

[woeful patio]

okay thank you

dunno how but took no damage

[crystal hill]

sometimes you find a radiation suit in levels to protect yourself. Not always though

[woeful patio]

oh the suit that makes your screen green tinted?

[little oar]

Yeah
That prevents damaging floor damage

[woeful patio]

oh okay

also whats "best" weapon? i been mainly using pistol

[little oar]

Only while it's active though, it's not like berserk that lasts the entire level even after the screen stops being tinted

The "best" weapon is dependent on what the situation is
DOOM is pretty good about making every weapon have situations where they're the better choice and sometimes another weapon is better

That being said I like using the chaingun and shotgun the most out of all of them, probably the two most useful weapons since their ammo is the most common

[crystal hill]

thats maybe the only objectively bad weapon in the game, lol

the shotgun is much better, and the chaingun is a faster firing pistol

[crystal hill]

this statement is true, yeah

[bitter shoal]

non-berserk fist is also objectively bad. Chainsaw becomes significantly worse on UV Fast from what I hear

[crystal hill]

Chainsaw isn't great on UV normal anyway, but yeah, on UV fast it loses a major niche (pinky killing)

[bitter shoal]

my list of DOOM hottakes is really just a list of what I'm willing to chainsaw

most of it goes away on UV Fast I'm sure

[crystal hill]

I dont chainsaw anything stronger than a pinky unless I need to somehow

[woeful patio]

shotgun does seem very nice

[median cloud]

How did you get to level 5 with only using the pistol?

[bitter shoal]

pacifist runs are a thing so...

[median cloud]

What new player does pacifists runs

[crystal hill]

which you can't use the pistol for

[bitter shoal]

??? I'm saying if that is possible, somehow managing with a pistol for way too long is as well

[crystal hill]

of course it's possible

[bitter shoal]

so... my answer is valid, right?

[crystal hill]

but we are expressing bewilderment at that having happened

no, because he is using a weapon, something you can't do during a pacifist playthrough

[bitter shoal]

I'm not saying they're doing a pacifist playthrough though

[crystal hill]

sure

[bitter shoal]

I'm just saying a lot is possible and weird things can happen as a result

[median cloud]

True but how you legit get a shotgun at e1m3 start

So a new player picks that up and switches to a pistol?

Also doesnt realize he picked up a weapon?

Just wild I guess

[bitter shoal]

Isn't there a shotgunner near the start of that map?

in fact isn't that map chock full of them

[storm tapir]

No..

If you play on HMP or lower there isn't

so easy to miss shotgun until map03 if you don't explore

I mean e1m3 not map03

[storm tapir]

oh sorry that was about e1m3 not e1m1 rip

[median cloud]

I think the spawn room has a shotgun on the ground

[storm tapir]

On skill 1+2 the very start room of e1m3 has a shotgun yes

so don't see how to miss it on any difficulty

unless it was a different wad lol

or weapon swap is off

[median cloud]

Not skill 3-4?

[storm tapir]

No you need to kill a shotgunner on those

[median cloud]

He mentioned Phobos Lab

[median cloud]

Only possibility

[median cloud]

E1m4 has one at the start?

Iirc

[storm tapir]

I mean even in e1m3 there is a shotgunner in way

[median cloud]

By e1m5 its impossible to not have a shotgun surely

[storm tapir]

and on UV it is harder to not get a shotgun than to get one in e1m1

[woeful patio]

uhhh
uhhuh.

[twin mortar]

Don't worry man I understood you immediately 🫡

[bitter shoal]

Thank you :)

[crystal hill]

@median cloud I beat No Chance, maxxing it with no saves

On Hurt Me Plenty

[median cloud]

Damnnnn thats still pretty solid

[crystal hill]

I'm relatively proud of myself, still. I've beaten harder maps in the past, but not many of them recently

I needed a lil' ego boost, lol

[median cloud]

Which harder ones did you beat?

Nochance is up there

[crystal hill]

map 29 in Plut 2 comes to mind immediately (Plutonia 2 is like a tumour in my goddamn head)

I've beaten all the maps in Speed of Doom except 32, all the maps in Alien Vendetta except map 28 (dark dome, whichever one that is) and a lot of sunlust

all the maps from 1 to 19 (minus 32) and then 21, 22 and 23 in sunlust. Not the hardest ones by any means, lol

[median cloud]

Thats harder than nochance???

[crystal hill]

Map 29 of Plut 2 on UV is way harder than No Chance on HMP, yeah

[crystal hill]

Oh yeah, I just beat a wad you might like - its called Osiris, and its made for vanilla Doom (though with a pretty big dehacked file). For 1996, it plays pretty neat like

[halcyon willow]

Not even close

[crystal hill]

The former is longer and I think has more enemies

[median cloud]

How exactly do you load dehacked files? Do you need to add them to your launcher or does the wad read them automatically? Never understood this

[crystal hill]

The former

Sometimes you can get away with the latter. I played Scythe X just with the wad on UZDoom, and it read the included dehacked automatically

[median cloud]

I guess it depends on the port

[crystal hill]

Osiris was the same, except the rocket launcher didnt turn into a flame thrower as intended, so I went back and applied the dehacked as well

[median cloud]

You just load it in your ZDL right?

[median cloud]

Yeah you gave me some 1-map wads to checkout but I still gotta finish ancient aliens ahah

I'm at map 27

Ancient Aliens 25 and 26 were really easy but fun

[crystal hill]

Yup. I always load the wad then the dehacked whenever I end up using it. Is ZDL still wiping itself for you?

[median cloud]

Well 26 was medium difficulty but 25 was easy

[crystal hill]

Well, you're only a few maps away from finishing. 27 is a little tough, 28 may be the hardest in the wad, 29 is easier than you think and 30 is literay free

[median cloud]

Does give me the urge to finish the mappack today

I guess it depends on how good 27/28 go

[crystal hill]

Both are good, 28 is better I think, if you like slaughter with a bit of thinking to it

[median cloud]

I think that's probably where I'm best at

I usually do better at the stereotypical "hard" maps with a slaughter aspect than the ammo/health starvation maps

[crystal hill]

I'd say I'm the opposite

I'm okay at conserving health, but excellent at conserving ammo

Skillsaw himself taught me the art of berserking in Vanguard

[median cloud]

learning to punch revenants to death without them quickly missiling u is a skill I learnt in ancient aliens as well

usually when I fist I take too much distance at some point and they missile me

[crystal hill]

Revs are weak enough that learning to punch them is worth it

[bitter shoal]

In some ways it is actually safer than SSG if the punch doesn't inflict a pain state

[crystal hill]

ehhhh

thats a reach

[median cloud]

You can still do a full power ssg shot on a rev at a distance where you can react to projectiles

[bitter shoal]

oh true

[storm tapir]

killing revs? but they are friendly if you stay their close friend

[modern peak]

or if you possess them

[woeful patio]

can you still get achivments if playing on lower dificultys in DOOM + DOOM II ?

[crystal hill]

yes

you can also get them while using in game cheats

its a bit crazy

[woeful patio]

oh okay thank you
as having hard time on "Hurt Me Plenty" so was going to move down to "Hey, Not Too Rough"

is not too rough just less enemies? as dont see as many

[crystal hill]

less enemies, more health and ammo

[woeful patio]

oh i see
wish had same enemies but just more health

[crystal hill]

thats not how Doom's difficulty works, I'm afraid

[woeful patio]

damn

[storm tapir]

You really dont want UV monsters in HMP

Even lowering their stats won't make up for the difficulty spike due to sheer enemy count increase

Think the og balance for someone completely new on lower difficulties works well

First difficulty is pretty much for someone who can't move and rotate at same time

[mossy snow]

https://youtu.be/OX0iQ6njmA4?si=LIahrGsTouNF13yz

[scarlet granite]

necesito ayuda para sacar los trofeos multijugador de doom 2016 juego en ps5 mi id es faze-jaguar931

[modern peak]

spaghetti meatball

[livid light]

hola amigo, no tengo el 2016 pero porsiaca tienes que mandarlo en #doom-2016 y tambien trata de traducirlo ya que este servidor es solo ingles

[misty lava]

Perhaps “just a bit crazy” /ref

[merry vine]

What do we think of Batman Doom?

[crystal hill]

super impressive for the time, and pretty fun to boot

[merry vine]

I still don't know how they did all that with dehacked, still impressive to this time tbh

[crystal hill]

100%

[mossy snow]

https://youtu.be/YzaePwsJ7Ps?si=0Q9aeWDUWChrXU_u

[median cloud]

@crystal hill beat map 28 first try of ancient aliens

And with that I've beaten Ancient Aliens!

Wooh what an experience

[crystal hill]

oh hey, well done

[crystal hill]

didya like it?

[median cloud]

Yeeep

Favorite maps are probably stereotypically 16 and 24

28 I liked as well but I dig slaughter combat

Augur Zenith is next now

[crystal hill]

hit after hit for you, huh?

I'm playing some mediocre wads at the moment, but I'm getting back into an RPG one from my childhood as well, so its not all bad

the 25 missed cacowards were, up till now, all one map or short wads. Now I'm playing a bunch of longer ones, so I can't get the dopamine rush of "progressing" as much

[median cloud]

Yeah Ive just been putting off augur zenith for too long

Maybe I should play the mucus flow once as well

[crystal hill]

A crime against art, lol

I want to play it myself. A curse of my binging is not letting myself play old favourites. At least Golden Souls 2 is coming up

[sly flicker]

Sooo, someone played Doom (1993) on bacteria

[astral kestrel]

you know
if you said that about any other game in existence I wouldn't believe it

[bitter shoal]

Mario 64 is probably gonna be the next one, since it got decompiled and people have been devleoping source ports. EDIT: But also someone making their own version from the ground up for GBA atm

[karmic cliff]

If only I could have every cell in my body playing Doom 1993./s
I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually possible to an extent.

[sly flicker]

It probably would be

[tiny ocean]

Are performance issues on final doom for PS1 normal?

[crystal hill]

yes. the levels are too big for the ps1 to handle

[tiny ocean]

Okay that’s why it’s lagging a bit for me

Just needed to know why it was lagging a bit for me

[bitter shoal]

I heard they didn't really have the time to optimize the levels for console either.

(I wouldn't be surprised if they were focusing on DOOM 64 by then)

[median cloud]

You'd expect a ps1 to run Doom flawlessy

gotta look up the specs of a ps1

[crystal hill]

Doom 1 and 2 are fine

Final Doom has bigger levels

[median cloud]

nvm Doom actually has a recommended ram requirement of 4 MB

while a ps1 has like 1 mb of RAM

[bitter shoal]

they have a custom engine for console (that originated with Jaguar that was even weaker) and also downscaled the level detail in a lot of ways to make it work

PS1 was the first console port to have a pretty acceptable framerate without too much compromise elsewhere, and even has colored lighting and a special skybox the PC version didn't have

[median cloud]

I like the PS1 version of Doom as well but I'm surprised the console is so "weak" I suppose

[crystal hill]

The PS1 is about as old as Doom

Doubt it was made with running it in mind

[median cloud]

Oh wow the PS1 is 1994

Thought it was 1997

[bitter shoal]

PS1 was very much carried by being a CD based system on top of being a polygon-rendering machine (Sega Saturn is... incredibly not ideal for 3D in addition to Sega's incompetence handling the market) which attracted a lot of developers.

But it was also just good enough as a system to be able to handle a specifically tailored version of DOOM to its hardware, prior consoles like SNES, 3DO, 32x etc, were all very compromised in some way. I believe Jaguar was the best prior version but even that didn't have music IIRC

geez how do you make something like Virtua Fighter in 1993 but then decide Sega Saturn was going to be a 2D console until haphazardly brute forcing it to do 3D things

(this isn't the reason why Saturn DOOM performs poorly btw)

[bitter shoal]

Scythe 2 Map 27 was absolutely nutty. A shame it didn't stay the final map, it is perfectly fitting as one.

Map 28 is a quality meme.

[median cloud]

Does using the fist make doom monsters more aggressive in attacking

[crystal hill]

I dont think so

what I've found is that every time you hit them, they retaliate soon after. If they havent retaliated by the time you've hit them again, they won't store it or anything

so if you hit them slowly, once at a time, they're going to fight back more often

[median cloud]

I read somewhere that shooting the weapon provokes attacking more

or heard it I suppose

[crystal hill]

I dont think so

[arctic canopy]

Hi guys

[median cloud]

@crystal hill wow Augur Zenith, what an opening map

Feels revolutionary

[crystal hill]

it is

I was blown away when I first played it

the intro, first 30 seconds or so are a contender for my favourite doom moment, period

[median cloud]

Might be the best opener map Ive ever played

[crystal hill]

i concur

[median cloud]

this or no rest for the livings opener

[crystal hill]

only happy gardens in GS1 comes close, and thats mainly down to nostalgia

[median cloud]

oh the dean didnt give it an A+

kinda unexpected

[crystal hill]

0/10 show

I disagree a lot with his grades (he's more generous than I am), but if this doesnt deserve an A+, what does?

[median cloud]

now I wanna see if he gave an opening map an A+

Heartland map 1

[crystal hill]

I'm gonna say it right now, I dont think it'll top auger zenith's first map

[median cloud]

and what lies beneath

those are the only ones

[crystal hill]

whats that?

[median cloud]

https://youtu.be/lbES6CYjJX4?t=757

halloween wad

[crystal hill]

havent watched that one yet

I'm holding off on watching new dean of dooms until I play the respective wads

[median cloud]

I understand that

Fortunately I can watch them multiple times since I forget most of them anyway

[crystal hill]

lol

I like to rewatch them myself. Its Doom flavoured comfort food

[uneven tangle]

Tastes like fireblu

[halcyon willow]

No. If monsters are infighting then shooting one will make them retarget to you (it's chance based). The only thing close to what you're describing is the archvile attack has a range limit until you shoot them. Once damaged it becomes (functionally) infinite range.

[median cloud]

ah so spamming fist does nothing

[modern peak]

i mean you can punch the air to wake enemies up

thats really all it does

[crystal hill]

yeah

[halcyon willow]

Yeah using the fist will alert enemies like any weapon, but once they're alert there's no change in state after that

Dunno why discord chose to reply to that again, but here we are

[prime grotto]

It's still funny to me how you can punch the air in front of you to instantly wake enemies up.

It's been useful to me more times than I'd like to admit.

[crystal hill]

its a good way to have enemies come to you without wasting ammo

[median cloud]

Loved map 6 of augur zenith

the lowkey music with the rain and the backstreets map layout

[bitter shoal]

Yeah punching just wakes enemies up. If you see someone in a video punching the air trying to get already agitated monsters to infoght, it isnt actually doing anything afaik.

[crystal hill]

it's excellent for that, yeah. And it has some of the tougher fights in the wad

map 17 however is the absolute peak of atmosphere and location in Doom, imo

if you love map 6, you're going to want to propose marriage to map 17

if you can overlook the ease of getting lost and mostly incidental fights (i can)

[merry vine]

Also, a tip for waking enemies up: Shooting a dormant enemy will make it start attacking instantly. This is useful if you have, for example, a cyberdemon with which you want to shoot everybody else up before they can react. But if you don't want them to attack instantly, punch the air

[median cloud]

Hype

Im at 07 now

[crystal hill]

but remember that if an enemy is hit by you, it will take some time before it actively starts attacking other enemies

its fine if you can get it to shoot at you along the way, but if you hide away somewhere, it'll stop firing

[halcyon willow]

What? No. Punching is mechanically the same as shooting

damaging an enemy is different

Because some monsters have jump states in their code based on taking damage

The other material difference is if you've damaged an enemy it can be harder to get them to retarget and infight

[solemn socket]

i think he meant that if you get a monster to a painstate they will attack immediately

that is, if the monster has a flag related to it, forgot the name.

[median cloud]

Tbf I'm well versed in infighting I just heard somewhere that spamming fist or just "shooting" provokes monsters more

Which could be handy if I need a cyber to start firing his rockets

[modern peak]

it wakes monsters up so they start targetting you, but they will immediately switch targets when hit by a different enemy if you didnt actually damage them

[median cloud]

Yeye I kno that

[bitter shoal]

Scythe 2 map 29 is kind of sloggy.. It's giving Sigil 2

[low acorn]

I want to try my hand at sprite work one of these days anybody know where I can take a good look at any doom Sprite sheets for inspiration

[median cloud]

Scythe 2 map 30 fortunately is really good

I'm somewhat looking forward to playing/beating Scythe 2 but first I'm doing Augur Zenith

[bitter shoal]

yeah, Scythe 2 has way more hits than misses thankfully

I'm guessing what happened was because Map 27 was supposed to be the last one, the last few are more experimental

[median cloud]

Yeah, did you pistol start them all?

[bitter shoal]

I did

[median cloud]

Which one was the hardest to beat?

[bitter shoal]

I use saves quite a bit though, since that helps me complete wads

[bitter shoal]

27 was the hardest so far, which makes sense, it was meant to be the finale. 28 is a slaughter map but more memey in style

[median cloud]

From reputation I know 23, 27 and I think 26(cuz of fisting)? Are the infamously hard ones

28 I've beaten before I'm sure, isn't too difficult

[bitter shoal]

29 is basically a SIGIL II map so far, except you are given a plasma rifle and a Mastermind to fight a Cyberdemon

[crystal hill]

that doesnt sound good

[bitter shoal]

I could always be missing something (although I saw an SSG behind a key locked area so probably not)

[median cloud]

I wonder whatever tf I will play after finishing Scythe 2

[bitter shoal]

I'm either gonna play Scythe X or Plutynia 1024 thingy

[median cloud]

That one is still on my list but after that I'm done

Plutonia 1024 sounds cool, I remember when Claustrophobia 1024 was big

Maybe I go Sunlust but ughhhhhh

[crystal hill]

some Claustrophobia 1024 maps were fun

others were really dense with no weapons to fight the monsters

[bitter shoal]

I made it a meme for myself to complete a bunch of Plutonia follow ups and I assume most 1024 stuff is quality despite my not having played them

[median cloud]

I could just say fuck it and do pl2 again

Ohh probably need to finish Eviternity 2 as well

[crystal hill]

playing the cacowards is nice in that it removes the need to choose from me

no need to wonder which of the thousands of wads I want to play I should play

[bitter shoal]

that is true

I think I mostly just didn't like the idea of holding stuff to higher standards than I normally would

[crystal hill]

what do you mean?

[median cloud]

Can also play these D2ICO/IRO wads they look good

lots of choices depends on if I want to go harder or nah

[crystal hill]

might be wise to go harder after Auger Zenith

with one or two exceptions, that wad really isnt anything tough

[median cloud]

I'm going Scythe 2 after AZ

Just after that I'm not sure

Maybe I take a break

[crystal hill]

quite a downgrade in quality, but you do you

[median cloud]

Well what else do you advise me to go for?

If I only play wads to the standard of AZ I think I can pack it up

Scythe 2 is still a fantastic wad

[crystal hill]

There's Going Down

It might (MIGHT) beat AZ

[median cloud]

I think I've already played Going Down

I stopped after that cool mouth map

Which is 2/3rd iirc

What's Going Down Turbo?

[crystal hill]

Good reason to replay it

[crystal hill]

A tweaked version to better accomodate speeding through the maps

I dont like it. The original Going Down is exactly my level of difficulty

[median cloud]

Is it easier then?

[crystal hill]

Much easier

[median cloud]

ah I'll play normal then

it's a good shout maybe I do that after Scythe 2

[crystal hill]

Theres also overboard

While its even more "fun" (atmospherically) than GD, its a lot easier. Even the new game + is

[median cloud]

I've heard of this

Maybe I do that inbetween Scythe 2 and Going Down

as like a vacation wad

[crystal hill]

Nice wordplay

And good choice

[hidden tundra]

I have a question.

There is a sort of clicking noise when in the classic doom games, is that an audio cue to hint there are secrets nearby or is that some demon yelling behind a wall?

[woven swallow]

Definitely demons yelling behind a wall

[halcyon willow]

Either a) get your hearing checked or more likely b) it's a lift being triggered. There are 2 secrets in e1m3 that rely on the sound cue of a lift being dropped

[hidden tundra]

Huh? Can you text louder, I’m hard of hearing (this is a joke thank you for your response.)

[hidden tundra]

They’ll be crying once I get to them

[median cloud]

@crystal hill what are some maps you like in wads you hate

Or rather maps you love and think are great

Like is too low of a benchmark

[crystal hill]

I've got a freakin wacky one for you

Map 13 of the New Doom Community Project 2

that wad starts off kind of meh, but it picks up near the middle. Plutonic Dawn was so good in fact it broke me out of a depressive mood I was in that day, lol

[crystal hill]

Map 1 in TNT might count. I don't hate TNT, and that first map is the best opening map in commercial Doom IMO. Unless we're counting Sigil as apart of that

the problem is I don't tend to play wads I hate for very long, so I dont get a chance to find great maps in them

Deus Vult II is also a helluva mixed bag for me, but I really liked the first two maps, Map 12, and 22 (for how unique of a map that one is)

If I had a list of "wads I wish I liked more", Deus Vult II would be near the top

[halcyon willow]

📢

[modern peak]

been playing the way id did

fun wad

[median cloud]

Dv2 is pretty cool imo looks also very new

[crystal hill]

despite being 20 years old now, lol

[urban trench]

I love Sunlust.
Flip a switch.
Hear the skree of a Revenant.
It hits me in the back of my head and I die.
I laughed.

[modern peak]

plutonia

[halcyon willow]

Deus Vult 2 is almost 2 decades old

Unholy Cathedral (map 23) is my all time favorite map

[median cloud]

It looks so new for its time tho

[median cloud]

Isnt that 21?

[languid quarry]

Is Doom the way ID did good

[halcyon willow]

ah yes, my mistake

[modern peak]

yeah i mean

its more classic doom

[bitter shoal]

Just beat Scythe 2. Enjoyed it quite a bit even with the massive difficulty spike for the last few levels.

Need to do the secret levels still.

[crystal hill]

If you like Doom 1, its more Doom 1

[spring iron]

Hello, I'm looking for a wad/megawad that used advanced features of GZDoom. If I remember correctly, there was a central hub on an asteroid in space where you selected levels, and each level was also in space... Once all the levels were finished, you had access to the last level in the hub. It was a community project, I think there were about fifteen maps.

[bitter shoal]

sounds more like something that would have Heretic/Hexen hub support than something that goes for GZDOOM specific features

[bitter shoal]

Scythe II's map 28 song is a Nightwish song

Amazing.

[modern peak]

i should probably beat scythe map30 but im not sure when ill get around to it

[bitter shoal]

okay just did the secret maps rq, 31 was a neat gimmick, 32 was nice and easy with a cool theme

[woven swallow]

Arluminae

I think

[spring iron]

Thanks but it's not, i found it, it's refracted reality

[woven swallow]

Bruh.... well glad you found it

[torpid yacht]

How do call those grey cacodemons on eviternity?

Stopped at map 15

[woven swallow]

Astral cacos

Some people call them Asshole Cacos

....I call them Astral Cookies

[halcyon willow]

Ar Luminae is a single (massive) map

[crystal hill]

my UZDoom crashed for the first time ever

In Map 2 of Eternal Slumber Party of all maps

[oak adder]

im on tombstone level in the plutonia mod

[smoky radish]

Anyone down for some classic doom death match on doom 1 + 2 the code is GPSX

[smoky radish]

Nvm lobby didnt last long lol

[ocean crag]

Classic doom was fantastic

[torpid yacht]

After you finish plutonia, play Sigil, Sigil 2 and Sunlust

[modern peak]

very great skill progression here

[crystal hill]

Sigil 2 and Sunlust are leagues ahead of Plutonia. No way you should play either immediately afterwar

[modern peak]

i should replay sigil 2 i honestly barely remember it

i only played it once when it came out and never replayed it

[median cloud]

Sigil, Sigil 2, Chillax pistol start

if chillax is too hard for you, you can try easier wads like holy hell or okuplok first

[modern peak]

you do tnt, then master levels, then no chance

[bitter shoal]

the correct order is Scythe maps 1-10, 11-20, then 21-30

[median cloud]

There's some wad progression thread on doomworld that I think is pretty good but it does add a lot of padding

If you want some linear difficulty you play the iwads and then move on to like Ancient Aliens/Eviternity -> Pl2/HR/SOD/Scythe 2 and then your Sunlust and whatever

ofcourse u can pad it out as much as you like inbetween

I should make a wad ranking based on difficulty think I'd find it fun

[bitter shoal]

you could also do like DOOM II -> Plutonia -> Tarachillax for smooth difficulty progression

[crystal hill]

I feel like padding is necessary to let you build up skills and muscle memory

[median cloud]

Yeah but you already have a lot of padding with just playing the official mappacks

[crystal hill]

but they're all relatively easy

until you get to plutonia you dont need to learn how to fight arch viles well

[median cloud]

I think the iwads have good progression

if you've finished TNT, NRFTL, Sigil you can start Plutonia for sure

[crystal hill]

yeah, unless you want to play something like sunlust

[median cloud]

I think it's harder to go from Plutonia to whatever is next but I think Ancient Aliens/Eviternity is the right step

and after you've finished them I think you're ready for the classic hard ones like HR, SOD, AV, PL2

[modern peak]

real men just go from tnt to plutonia

how god intended

[median cloud]

I guess you should just play a couple of hard ones before going to like Sunlust

[median cloud]

It's doable

[modern peak]

or just go from doom 2 to plutonia like i did

(it wasnt fun)

[median cloud]

I think I did pretty much Doom 2 -> TNT -> Plutonia

But I did finish like Eviternity and HR before prior

Then again I had more than enough doom experience

[hard current]

whats the best strat for E1M3 Doom 1

[median cloud]

Wdym?

[hard current]

sorry I meant to add on nightmare diff

[woven swallow]

ohhh

[hard current]

whats the best E1M3 strat for doom 1 nightmare?

[woven swallow]

https://youtu.be/jpqjZSwdxPs?list=PLYZp53E4M0t-uK6GRTvf7BnaGOLdw88_J

[oak adder]

thats what I did

[prime lava]

its been like 5 years since i last did e1m3 nightmare so idr but as far as i do remember its a lot easier to go tjrough all the secrets before goinf to get the key and coming back

Theres not really any point in taking it later just forces you to play safer at the start

[native anchor]

Barrels Of Fun is almost as hard as Perfect Hatred IMO.

[median cloud]

I think its harder from pistol start

E4 difficulty is overstated in pistol start

[native anchor]

That's what I did because I died to a Revenant.

[median cloud]

The chasm is also tough on pistol start

[abstract goblet]

Is it really that much of a jump in skill requirement? I'm currently playing to 100% the Doom steam achievements and playing through TNT for the first time.

Well, and Plutonia.

[mellow matrix]

TNT to Plutonia is a perfectly logical jump.
Plutonia isn't a super difficult wad, it just asks for a different skill set from the player. It's basically all traps and gotcha moments vs the incidental encounter heavy D1/D2/TNT.

[median cloud]

Nah its minor but just a step up

[bitter shoal]

I'd argue you can go from some of John Romero's levels in DOOM II and Episode 4 to Plutonia even. Plutonia isn't like super inaccessible skill wise IMO, it just has some evil moments in the first half.

[median cloud]

Yeah definitely

[mellow matrix]

This last episode of Jenesis is rough. I get wanting to emulate id's Hell aesthetic but you don't have to emulate their combat. Constantly low on ammo, tons of stilted, amorphous combat, and garbage enemy spam like a dozen Mancubi in an open field with no rockets or 3 Cybers tucked in a far away corner with full line-of-sight. It's hard for all the wrong reasons.

[bitter shoal]

went through Scythe X rq (took about 3 days?) That is quite the cliffhanger

[bitter shoal]

Otherwise a good wad if you just want to use regular shotgun on a bunch of stuff

[halcyon willow]

What? Jenesis is easy

[smoky radish]

Co-op doom 1+2 sigil anyone

Or eviternity

[woven swallow]

hello

yeah i'll be down for that

[mellow matrix]

Replace "hard" with "tedious" then. The Mancubi at the end of The Carcass Pit required a backpack's worth of shells and the Archvile room in Savage Abyss involved peekaboo shooting to the tune of 250 chaingun bullets.

[fallow merlin]

Probably gonna sound like an absolute dork asking about this here but I’ve been on the search for the old GamingHeads/Bethesda Pain Elemental plush to complete the Doom 2013 plush line (already own a Cacodemon and Doomguy is on the way). If anyone has the Pain Elemental or knows somebody who does or can give a lead please either DM or ping me.

[prime moat]

does anyone know what the default fov for the kex/nightwave rerelease of doom is?

i was playing with the settings and i accidentally messed it up lol

[white sequoia]

Hello guys im new in discord server

[woven swallow]

Hello

welcome to new guy

[woven swallow]

i think it's 90

[white sequoia]

thanks

I didn't know John Romero is in this server

[prime moat]

thanks

[cinder sapphire]

I read through all the cacowards and most of the doomworld map release threads and compliled a list of wads to play, in order to also not have to wonder which one to play next.

[crystal hill]

Very neat

I just take each year's list as it comes

[crystal hill]

there's a few hidden gems in the cacowards lists

[native anchor]

I always feel like nobody can decide what is truly the "Classic Doom Trilogy". The Depths of Doom Trilogy has Doom 1, 2, and Master Levels. The Collector's Edition is Doom 1, 2, and Final Doom instead of Master Levels. And the Classics Collection for consoles is Doom 1, 2, and 3.

It makes no sense at all.

[crystal hill]

Doom 64 wasn't included in these because it wasnt ported until 2020

[native anchor]

Even then, Doom 64 isn't included in any collection. Closest you'd get is having it included with Eternal if you pre-ordered.

[crystal hill]

I don't really care if it is or isn't in any collection

What Bethesda/id regard as "classic Doom" doesn't have to equate to what the community at large thinks it means

I count Doom 1, 2, Master Levels, Final Doom and Doom 64 as "classic Doom" because they all play essentially the same

[native anchor]

Most of it is what's included in the Kex Engine port so it's pretty appropriate.

[crystal hill]

even outside of that

Doom 1 to Final Doom play on DOS. Doom 64 is the exception but it uses a modified version of idtech 1

[native anchor]

And so Doom 1-Final Doom all share the same sourceports. You can have all of them run in Chocolate Doom or Crispy Doom just to name a few.

[crystal hill]

exactly

[native anchor]

Whereas Doom 64 only has some fan made versions like CE that work in UZDoom. Outside of that, there's the Kex version.

[crystal hill]

can't do that with Doom 3

[native anchor]

Doom 64 does also feel like some kind of swansong for Classic.

[bitter shoal]

It is almost like a game made by another studio under a different major publisher would have a more difficult time being lumped in with the rest of the Id fully owned products

[crystal hill]

Why? It's very similar to the other classics

[native anchor]

Yes, but it has different visuals and adds the Unmaker.

[crystal hill]

there are differences in how you play, how certain enemies act, so on. But it is fundamentally very similar

[crystal hill]

Doom 1 has slightly different textures, no SSG and is missing half the enemies from later games

[bitter shoal]

I am explaining why it took this long for doom 64 to be lumped in as an acknowledged entry, I imagine being a midway game was also a barrier to some degree

[crystal hill]

it's also the only episode based one

[crystal hill]

I think the barrier was no one having played it

[bitter shoal]

Otherwise it does deserve to be considered a classic

[crystal hill]

there was no way to play Doom 64 on PC (without emulation) until 2020

Most Doom fans (hardcore enough to care about labels like "classic") wouldn't have owned an N64

[bitter shoal]

Chicken and egg scenario I imagine

[native anchor]

There was some fan conversions like GEC Master Edition or Retribution for GZDoom before the Kex version.

But most of the time back then, you'd be playing on either an actual N64, or playing through EX.

[bitter shoal]

That is true actually

[crystal hill]

Conversions arent the same thing. And remember, not everyone plays modded Doom

[median cloud]

@crystal hill you werent lying about augur zenith map 17

[crystal hill]

No I was not

It's incredible

[native anchor]

People still ended up playing EX frequently. It is essentially a glorified emulator specifically for Doom 64.

[median cloud]

Might be the best downtown city map ever

[native anchor]

Or even before EX, there was Absolution TC.

[median cloud]

I played it so slowly and awe inspired

[bitter shoal]

Yep, ex was the standard for playing 64 for awhile iirc

[crystal hill]

I'm sure some people have played it. But it being unofficial and requiring a specific port (as well as the IWAD file) means not many did

[median cloud]

Grinded a lot of augur zenith today

only 18-22 left but the maps seem to be longer now

[crystal hill]

savour what's left. I've never found anything like it

[crystal hill]

well, it's nearing the end of the wad

[native anchor]

If Master Levels was supposed to be an expansion pack for Doom 2, why didn't it just be a single WAD when it first released?

[crystal hill]

lack of organisation, I'd imagine

multiple maps relied on being in specific slots that could have caused problems for other maps

[native anchor]

At least that does mean you can mix some of the Master Level WADs in with Doom 2.

Mostly you'd do this in a sourceport like Chocolate Doom however.

[crystal hill]

sounds like a weird thing to do. The Master Levels are very inferior to the Doom 2 maps overall

[native anchor]

Well, it's an expansion pack made by people that aren't Id so...

And Thy Flesh Consumed also is kinda whack for how unbalanced it is.

[crystal hill]

ok?

You were talking about Doom 2, not Doom 1

about mixing in the Master Levels into it for some reason

[bitter shoal]

I assume because all of the wads were made in isolation.

Tnt and plutonia were both projects meant to make megawads.

[median cloud]

I think Thy Flash Consumed is overall of higher quality than the master levels though

There are some good maps in the master levels like attack, the black tower, that elevator map, trapped on titan

thats about it tho hahah

[native anchor]

I always feel debated over whether Final Doom is a standalone expansion or not.

Like, it's a commercially released game because Id liked TNT and Plutonia so much.

[bitter shoal]

It is standalone on an objective level. They are their own iwads so they work without copies of doom or doom ii iwads

They are technically not an expansion at all it is just easier to think of them as one for a lot of people

[median cloud]

@crystal hill finished augur zenith

Great mappack

[crystal hill]

glad you liked it

did you find it easy?

[median cloud]

pretty easy yeah I think I can count on one hand the amount of times I died

Died 3 times on the last map actually but I think that was accidental due to bad playing

[crystal hill]

Mhm. Thats a bit of a mixed bag, mostly bad for me

everything else was fantastic though

[median cloud]

Yeah atmosphere and graphics are great

I saw it more as an adventure than a challenge

Scythe 2 gonna be different heh

[crystal hill]

Same. It has the best atmosphere out of any Doom wad I've played, and the vast majority of games period

[native anchor]

Crazy, most of the Master Levels replace MAP01. So most of the time playing Master Levels, you're gonna be hearing explicitly "Running From Evil".

[median cloud]

Horrible experience thats why u play the version that has them ordered

[native anchor]

That's only in the Kex port.

But you could likely just take the WAD for that and have it run in a sourceport.

Maybe I tried it in Chocolate Doom and it didn't work.

Let me just test that again.

[median cloud]

I think Ive played it this way

[native anchor]

Tried it again, and it didn't work.

Bad V DrawPatch.

[bitter shoal]

A quick DOOM Wiki search confirms what I assumed any compilation of individual maps did, and tells me that Master Levels came with a UI-based software to choose the levels from a list and it does the command line launch parameters for you.

So people back then would have probably just went through them alphabetically

[native anchor]

There's also something called ZDoom interface for GZ/UZDoom that lets you pick what WAD from Master Levels you wanna play.

[bitter shoal]

yeah, basically launchers just kind of always exist. Shareware compilations, ones written to launch maps for games (since passing along a command line is pretty trivial so it is just a matter of writing your own file searching process, or using an already premade file viewer), newer ones for Windows and so on

[native anchor]

Actually, Chocolate Doom and Crispy Doom have dedicated launchers you can download separately.

And it does let you play the Master Levels all in one go.

[mellow matrix]

Jenesis overall was pretty good. I just strongly disliked Maps 25 + 26. Worth a playthrough if you're looking for (mostly) chill speedmaps. I played the original 32 map version though, not the Bethesda edition.

[oak adder]

map 27 on plutonia

the previous level bunker is pain

maybe its because I was getting worn out

[bitter shoal]

Other than Icon of Sin being Icon of Sin, last few maps weren't too bad IIRC

[median cloud]

Is D2INO a good mappack?

[crystal hill]

it's fine

the best way I can describe both DINO and D2INO is - if you like Doom 1/2, this is more of Doom 1/2

[oak adder]

my problem with plutonia is that I get worn out only a few maps in

same with evilution

[median cloud]

That scythe 2 super secret exit is extremely hard goddamn

[median cloud]

I think thats not abnormal, I usually only do a couple of maps in one go

[crystal hill]

yeah, don't try to marathon wads you find difficult

[median cloud]

Blazing through Scythe 2 right now

but at the point where it becomes rly hard

[compact gyro]

Hey, quick question. how can I play custom music in classic DOOM? I am using GZDoom and also wondering if it is possible in DSDA Doom. Also, can this be done per map or only as a full soundtrack replacement?

[livid light]

you could make a wad using a tool like slade, then place some audio files inside and rename them to whatever music you want to replace (for example D_RUNNIN is for entryway): https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_II_music
gzdoom and dsda can read mp3 and ogg, but gzdoom supports more formats, like opus

[compact gyro]

Thanks, appreciate it

[torpid yacht]

Tnt evilution is lame
Pluto ia is a different experience

BTW
How hard is plutonia 2?
I haven't try it

[crystal hill]

very

way harder than the official IWADs

[torpid yacht]

Harder than sunlust?

[crystal hill]

no. Few wads are

[median cloud]

Nah not as hard as sunlust but a big step up from plutonia

u got like pl2, av, sod, scythe 2, hr, hr2 all in the same category of difficulty imo

tho pl2 might be the easiest one out of the bunch

[crystal hill]

I think AV is a little easier

[dense bobcat]

I have a really ballsy take to make about Classic Doom: I literally CANNOT go back to any difficulty lower than UV after I started using GZDoom. I don't know if I suddenly gained fifteen extra neurons, but UV just feels right. This might be a six-year Doom vet talking, but it's just so damn fun. I'm the reason they made Nightmare.

[torpid yacht]

Ok ok I thought it would be crazy hard lol

Ill play it after eviternity

[crystal hill]

many vets think classic Doom is too easy, even on UV. That's what custom wads are for

[median cloud]

After you beat classic doom on UV you very rarely play on anything lower

nightmare is more of a niche thing tho

[bitter shoal]

It helps that Scythe 2 maps never become too big. I got worn out with Plutonia Revisited 2 not because of the dfificulty but because of how massive the maps became but after Scythe 2 I felt perfectly fine.

[median cloud]

Im at 23 now so next time Im playing its gonna be the tough ones

[oak adder]

I completed final doom

plutonia is better imo

[torpid yacht]

Sigil next (The 5th episode of Doom 1)
Or TNT: Revilution (is waaaay better)

[native anchor]

Every weapon in Classic Doom has at least one use.
Fists for when you have Berserk.
Chainsaw for when there’s no ammo.
Pistol when you have no other weapon.
Shotgun Super Shotgun for general use.
Chaingun for lighter demons.
Rocket Launcher and Plasma Rifle for bigger demons.
And BFG for utter destruction.

[bitter shoal]

holy oversimplification

[torpid yacht]

I use chainsaw against caco

[bitter shoal]

SIGIL 2 be like

[hardy pebble]

I still need to beat Doom, but I’m driving myself insane trying to get Untouchable lol

[bitter shoal]

Chaingun especially has a lot of niche uses, sniping something that you really want gone but the spread of your shotguns are too wide and RL or plasma isn't available, it has high rate of stun, I like killing Cacos that float away after an SSG blast, it can finish off enemies that didn't die from expected damage thresholds.

Rocket Launcher is also not just "for bigger demons", it has an important AoE component that can save ammo in the long term if you are hitting grouped enemies with it, it can hit things from a distance without damage fall off assuming direct hit.

[halcyon willow]

Sounds like you're ready for Sunder c:

[oak adder]

I'll probably play that at some point

but on "hurt me plenty" or lower

I only say that because I tortured myself with final doom on uv

plus sigil is way more cruel on uv in terms of resources

[torpid yacht]

Its not that tight on ammo

Only in one level n thats it

[halcyon willow]

The next time you try throw shade at someone wanting to try a difficulty other than UV you better have your uvmax run of Sunder map 20 ready to submit

[torpid yacht]

What is that? Is that on ps5?

[vestal flax]

[halcyon willow]

Baby wad for babies

[vestal flax]

imagine playing sunder on anything less than UV smh smh

[halcyon willow]

Smh my damn head

[bitter shoal]

Next time someone does this, maybe I should tell them to "Chillax"? :o

[halcyon willow]

Chillax isn't that hard, it's just boring as hell and badly balanced. And it's 90% stolen work

Ironically has some of insane gazebo's pre Sunder work

You want some high quality bullshit, play Dark Tartarus. That thing slaps

[bitter shoal]

dang, I wanted to make a pun but it doesn't work for its non-pun purpose

[halcyon willow]

I mean if it's a good joke I'll allow it

[torpid yacht]

If its fun i dont mind
Like revilution

If its a challenge i dont mind either
Ill try it anyways

And didnt mean to throw shade
Sorry if i pressured u bro @oak adder

[oak adder]

its okay
ive already suffered a lot on uv

[halcyon willow]

Memery aside, it's a revolutionary slaughter wad that showcased just how good slaughter can be in the hands of a talented mapper, and Insane Gazebo is extremely talented. If Ribbiks is at one end of the "hard" spectrum with tight combat puzzles, Insane Gazebo is at the other end with massive sweeping slaughter fests with literally 1000s of demons in single fights. The impact Sunder has had over the last decade+ can't be overstated

[torpid yacht]

I saw that name Gazebo somewhere but i forgot
So that mean its harder than sunlust?

[halcyon willow]

Yes

A lot harder

Except for things like Go Fuck Yourself, that's a different kind of difficult

Ribbiks later stuff like Stargate 20x7 or Magnolia are more comparable, but again very different. It's a style thing rather than any kind of objective measure of difficulty

Expect to spend 6 to 10 hours is some of the later Sunder maps

[bitter shoal]

I think it is apparent it wasn't a good joke lol

[halcyon willow]

[bitter shoal]

anyway... a HMP player now might be a UV player later

[crystal hill]

Yeah, theres a ton of nuance and edge cases to every weapon in Doom, part of why I love playing it so much

[median cloud]

If you want to get a more linear difficulty progression I'd go: TNT Revilution/Eviternity/Ancient Aliens (maybe even Scythe for its latter half) after Final Doom

After that you can pretty much play the classic hard wads with: HR, AV, PL2, SOD, Scythe 2 etc

[crystal hill]

I can't recommend playing Hell Revealed. Its not that its hard, its that its not fun

[median cloud]

Personally I love it

[crystal hill]

All the other wads you listed are quality, even Scythe 2 which I think is overrated

But I cant get behind Hell Revealed's sadism or love of barons

[bitter shoal]

Hell Revealed is just tedious

it manages to make SSG feel like pistol half the time

[crystal hill]

If I wanted to experience tedium, I'd go to work

[bitter shoal]

which is an impressive feat

[crystal hill]

It cant do mucu against a horde of barons

[median cloud]

Hell Revealed has tedious maps but also just has some bangers especially for 1997

[median cloud]

Been playing to Scythe 2 and I definitely see why it gets so much praise

I like it more than auger zenith atm and might prefer it over ancient aliens

tho I think the latter probably still has an edge

[crystal hill]

its not worth slogging through the terrible to get to the good, imo

Requiem is also hit and miss and it doesn't threaten to bore me to death

[crystal hill]

I've played through most of it twice now, and I just don't feel it

[median cloud]

The earlier maps aren't very tedious at all though

And Map 13 is a gem already

[crystal hill]

the early maps are good, sure

[median cloud]

Requiem does suck

[crystal hill]

but thats not the whole wad

[crystal hill]

nahhhhh

[median cloud]

I mean I get HR is dated af I just like the vibe

[crystal hill]

Reqiuem is dated, and has some not great maps, but it's fun

by 1997 standards, it's great

[crystal hill]

I appreciate it has a certain "feel" that can appeal, but that gameplay is bad for most of it

[median cloud]

I haven't managed to play through Requiem completely yet

[crystal hill]

its not hard. But I wouldnt recommend you do so ASAP like with Auger Zenith

[median cloud]

I think I'm at map 15 for requiem, honestly just didn't like it enough to play further through it

But I might give it a shot again maybe crispy doom makes it more fun than chocolate doom haha

[bitter shoal]

Problem is that stuff like Plutonia already shows better pacing and that was even older

[crystal hill]

Plutonia set the golden standard to follow for years to come

[bitter shoal]

It is really good. Encounters are insanely deliberate in design.

[median cloud]

I've always liked HR I think I got to know it playing survival with some randoms online and I had a really good time

Never liked HR2 much

[crystal hill]

thats just HR without the fun early maps

[bitter shoal]

Co-op would alleviate a lot of its issues with respawning weapons and higher DPS on your part

[median cloud]

it was a hardcore survival type of co-op

no respawning items but you did get double ammo

1 life as well

Ancient aliens is a lot harder on average than people give it credit for tbh

[crystal hill]

its no Going Down, but there's certainly some sticking points

might be a step or two above Valiant

[median cloud]

It's more that the hardest maps aren't terribly hard but on average I find most maps have some difficult or stingy fights

The hardest map for me was maxing that icon of sin map

and then I think map 10 Gift Of Denial lol

the one with the hell knight floors that lower

[crystal hill]

gift of denial was a real bitch, especially for how early it is

[crystal hill]

they all have something that could cause problems, but I generally got through the maps without much issue on my recent run through

[crystal hill]

Do you ever quit a map not because its too hard but because it's confusing the hell out of you and you dont know where to go?

[bitter shoal]

I can't think off the top of my head when I did but very unlikely that I hadn't at all

[crystal hill]

map 25 of Nova II is a new example of that for me

way too big, I have no clue where to go, and the fights sure as shit arent worth slogging through this for

[bitter shoal]

community project late map slot-itus I'm guessing

[crystal hill]

SOmewhat. But I'm noticing this happens semi regularly with Pinchy maps specifically

[median cloud]

No I will just look up a guide

[crystal hill]

I will too, unless the map is already not enjoyable

[median cloud]

If I'm 20+ minutes into a map I dont want to not complete

[crystal hill]

sunk cost fallacy?

I was 20 mins into this one, I didnt want to waste another 10 or 20

[median cloud]

probably

I do force myself to finish maps I dont particularly like

There was a TNT Devilution map with 30 secrets and 1k monsters, did not want to play that at all

but I have a completionist mindset

[crystal hill]

I had to ditch that in order to play all the cacowards witout losing my mind

I'm not self flaggelating my way through Hell Revealed 2 just because it got an award

[median cloud]

Understandable I'm not playing at a rate lik you are

[crystal hill]

if a map is good, I'll finish it

Jade Earth took me 2 and a half hours, counting deaths, and it was worth every second

[median cloud]

I've finished: TNT2 Devilution, Scythe, Legacy of Rust, Ancient Aliens, Auger;zenith in the past months

and most of them went by at a decent pace

[crystal hill]

speaking for the ones I've played, they're all relatively brisk, minus Ancient Aliens a little

[median cloud]

there are a lot of hard wads in the cacowards that would surely burn me out

I think all traditional hard wads are in there

[crystal hill]

Lots of them are. I've decided to try them on HMP nowadays, despite my ego

worked for No Chance. Made me almost more mad than otherwise on Stardate 20X7 and Eternal Slumber Party

[median cloud]

Ah don't think I can do that haha

But I don't have much ambition to complete these super hard ribbiks-esque ballbusters

I'm taking pride in finishing the traditional hard wads

[crystal hill]

feels good to beat something hard, if it's enjoyable at the same time

though I must admit that I feel like my skill level has somewhat decreased from it's peak, due to my willingness to skip stuff

[bitter shoal]

Responding late but I’ll look at a guide as well because I can’t trust myself as to whether I’m missing something obvious or not

[tiny ocean]

I’m running doom for PlayStation one on my PSP running pretty good. some levels from thy flesh consumed are laggy and some doom II levels are laggy but overall not a bad experience. Really enjoying it so far

[median cloud]

I've played the PSX Doom version so often

I love it

[tiny ocean]

its a good version i love the lighting and the soundtrack isnt too bad either

[median cloud]

@crystal hill any mappacks you can think of that are easier than classic doom?

[crystal hill]

classic Doom as in Doom 1?

[median cloud]

Nah Doom 1/Doom 2

[crystal hill]

uhhhhh

If you're looking for full 32/36 map packs, I struggle to imagine any that would be easier than Doom 1

those maps are short and easy, a winning combo

there's more hope for Doom 2, though. I'll need to look through the ol' archive of things I've played

[median cloud]

Something that comes to mind is demonfear if you've ever heard of that

[crystal hill]

looking through my list of favourites, the only ones I can pick out as "maybe"s are Cyberdreams (which is a pure gimmick wad that may not count), Khorus' Speedy Shit (debatable, and even then only because they're speedmaps) and Whispers of Satan

[crystal hill]

oh yes. One of the most disposable wads I've played, lol

32 maps of things I breezed through without any resistance

the only maps I even vaguely remember are one set in/around a house and one in a dark city block

Vile Flesh also seems pretty easy so far

[median cloud]

Ah yeah Vile Flesh is a good shout

[crystal hill]

you played it?

[median cloud]

not properly but I know it and probably breezed through some of the levels

[crystal hill]

its not worth replaying, imo

its not great so far, but considering it was released in 2004 I might still judge it worthy of a cacoward, lol

[median cloud]

If you made a 32-mappack with non-troll maps you were probably eligible for a cacoward back then

[crystal hill]

funny you say that. My 3 favourites from 2004 are a single map, action doom and a doom 1 episode

[crystal hill]

Maybe? The community sort of petered out after Scythe 1 and 2 released until 2008ish

arguably after quake released

[crystal hill]

I can add Map 29 of Nova II to this list

Probably my favourite Ribbicks map ever. Makes you feel like a legend for completing it while keeping the temperature reasonable

[median cloud]

Damn scythe 2 map 23 is kicking my ass

[crystal hill]

I think thats the furthest I ever got. That or 22

[median cloud]

22 is tough but not like extreme

23 is pretty harsh Ive needed like 4-5 tries just go get the red skull

then I died at the blue skull trap

[crystal hill]

If 22 is the map I remember quitting on, I believe 100% that I could have eventually beaten it, I just didnt see the point

[median cloud]

was it a slaughter map or not

23 is the first real slaughter map

22 isnt slaughter but is more "mean"

[crystal hill]

I think its 22 then

[wintry copper]

15 for me on UV and that's bc I didn't have enough cells left for the final fight

[bitter shoal]

Hilariously the map 15 is like one of the hardest fights arguably

[median cloud]

In scythe 2?

The end fight or which one?

The map I had the most trouble with was 31 getting the super secret exit lol

I died like 5x to Mr. X as well

[bitter shoal]

End fight

[median cloud]

I didnt find that too hard just some good bfg spam

Found it harder to not be super low hp by then

[crystal hill]

You ever play the Warlock's Hearth? It's bizarre

the soundtrack and some visuals made me think the map was an allegory for terminal illness, it's long as hell (reminding me of Jade Earth), and the combat as really low impact. As I said, bizarre

[median cloud]

Hadnt heard of it

[crystal hill]

I think it's worth a playthrough if you like atmosphere in your Doom wads. As well as contemplating the story being told in the background

[copper sequoia]

Words cannot describe my hatred towards doom 64. Do not try to beat it without doing the secret levels

[halcyon willow]

Doom 64 slaps

Immaculate vibes

[oak adder]

I thought doom 64 was fine

[bitter shoal]

I need to actually play through it at some point but it seems to be a hit or miss title

[torpid yacht]

I haven't played doom 64

[uneven tangle]

It’s peak

[merry vine]

Doom 64 is peak. Absolute peak.

Although there were parts that pissed me off, because the mappers loved to place inescepable traps

[woven swallow]

It's been ages since I played doom64, maybe I will play it again this year

[crystal hill]

I dont like Doom 64, but its not so bad as to make me hate it

The slower pace and samey music get on my nerves over time. As does the lesser focus on letting you pistol start every level

[median cloud]

Never played Doom 64 properly myself

that void map is sick however

[sharp veldt]

Playing Unholy Realms and map 5 music sounds like Sadistic from TNT

[median cloud]

ok I just saw a Scythe 2 map 23 demo and I think I was just pretty dumb

I think I can beat it now

Not taking the start berserk when I'm 100% health is probably a smart move lol

[covert swan]

Vile Flesh is actually a pretty good wad. Not the greatest, but still.

[covert swan]

It does

[crystal hill]

Its my favourite doom 64 map by a wide margin

Its the only one where the music and atmosphere actually works for me, likely due to the massive difference between it and the other levels

[crystal hill]

What'd you like about it? I found it very backtracking heavy, with pretty limp fights

[covert swan]

I like level design overall. Don't mind backtracking personally. Moreoever, speaking of backtracking, never complained of the one in Quake 2 as well.

There are some interesting wads that I like to play from time to time: 1024 Claustrophobia and it's sequel.

[median cloud]

I beat Scythe 2 map 23!!!

lovely map tbh was a big fan

I'd say it was still easier than fire & ice, maybe due to being shorter

but I do remember needing a guide for fire & ice and could just beat 23 alone mostly

I picked up 2 things from a demo and that was saving the berserk and shooting the revs from far away

[crystal hill]

Backtracking is fine if the return trip is made interesting, which these rarely were. Its a shame, 2004 was a bad year for wads, I thought this could break that streak

[median cloud]

It's funny how the map I needed the most retries on was the super secret exit for map 31

Think I needed like 20-30 tries to get that down

[crystal hill]

That whole map is a pain

Evil marines really live up to their names

[median cloud]

They are so much harder than I remember

Makes the ones in legacy of rust look like frauds

[crystal hill]

I suppose id wouldnt want to make LoR too inaccessible, lol

[crystal hill]

@bitter shoal were you the one trying to play all the Plutonia wads in here before?

[bitter shoal]

yep

[crystal hill]

cool. Have you played Plutonium Winds?

[bitter shoal]

I hadn't heard of it

I'll check it out after the 1024 wad though, it seems short

actually taking a bit of a break from DOOM to play the new DQ7 remake

[crystal hill]

it's an interesting one. It's like concentrated Plutonia - the levels are very short, but very vicious per square km. It also has a bit of Swift Death (instantly attacked when you spawn) and Sunlust (levels you need to slowly learn your way through, plus general fight design)

[median cloud]

@crystal hill any idea if mtpain maxes icon of sin maps?

Cuz imo some maps become way harder to max if you try to max them

Think Ancient aliens map 18, plutonia map 30

[crystal hill]

I dont think he does

I don't either, because GZ/UZDoom doesn't differenciate between enemies already in the level and those spawned by the icon

[median cloud]

ah dsda doom does fortunately

hmmmm

I've been making a mtpain like ratings for myself

But I made an exception for scythe map 28 run from it so I'm not sure if I should make exceptions for icon of sin maps haha

tbf if I dont max map 18 of ancient aliens its still probably the hardest map in the pack

so I'm making exception for icon of sin maps as well

[crystal hill]

is it?

if you know the route, you can speed right through it

[median cloud]

Yeah that's true

Ehhh this is annoying

Since I did max that map and therefor I had the hardest time on that one

But I didn't max other icon of sin maps

Plutonia map 30 for example becomes the 2nd hardest map if I max it and if I don't it's like top 10

[sick yarrow]

yeah he definitely skips them, he thinks they're a chore and just break the grading

[sick yarrow]

yeah honestly trying to max icon maps just breaks the difficulty curve, better to keep the exceptions

[median cloud]

Icon of sin maps are also just rng

[median cloud]

Yeah its too rng

Ill just revisit the AA map on completion difficulty

[sick yarrow]

yeah that should work, just judge the climax instead of the grind

yeah that makes sense, maxing map 18 is basically a different game

[crystal hill]

I dont respect most icon of sin maps, I just want them over and done with asap

[median cloud]

Same

[median cloud]

Pretty much

HR map 30 is also similar

[crystal hill]

I like when map 30s take a turn away from the icon

[sick yarrow]

oh yeah HR map 30 is basically the definition of rng pain

[crystal hill]

Nova II's is pretty cool (helps that I'm a massive Cyriak fan)

[median cloud]

I've been basing my grading system so hard on mtpain's system haha

It's so difficult to gauge difficulty (heh) of maps properly

[crystal hill]

I didn't actually review any of the maps I've played until recently

I picked the worst and best ones, and that's it

[median cloud]

I have a couple of maps I rate as X difficulty but I know there are just a gazillion ones that are multiple tiers more difficult than those

[crystal hill]

I'll keep doing that for the cacowards, but for stuff like the missed cacowards, I write a little review for them, and what "grade" I'd give them.

[median cloud]

easy maps are also super hard to judge on difficulty

like the first 10 scythe maps I can barely distinguish which one gave me a harder challenge

[crystal hill]

true

those all are laughably easy

[median cloud]

They're all just B-C tier in quality and like E-D in difficulty

Fava beans was also a pain to grade

[crystal hill]

I feel like MtPain gives too many A's

that should be reserved for the best of the best maps

[median cloud]

I do as well my quality grades differ a lot from him

and I did add a "S" tier above

Which is only for maps I find basically genre defining or amazing

[sick yarrow]

s tier is for the legendary stuff, what's in there so far

[median cloud]

Atm:
E1M3: Toxic Refinery
Augur Zenith Map 01
Ancient Aliens Map 24 Culture Shock

[crystal hill]

I approve of the 2nd two. Toxic Refinery?

[median cloud]

I gave Leave your Sol behind from Ancient Aliens also an S apparently

[median cloud]

Best official doom map imo

think it's perfect and love it

[crystal hill]

that sits alongside Culture Shock as the peak of AA's adventurous atmosphere