classic-doom

[sharp wyvern]

youre the one being aggressive

[crystal hill]

how?

you're discussing what people who aren't in this conversation are saying or doing

[sharp wyvern]

whyd you hit me with the i dont care when i just commented it wasn't intended to be commercial

[crystal hill]

because it's not relevant

[sharp wyvern]

ok but it literally is relevant

[crystal hill]

because that's not how it was released

[sharp wyvern]

dude holy fuck i do not care about arguing over tnt have fun being miserable

[crystal hill]

if it was intended to be a fan made thing, but then it was sold for money, I would expect a higher standard to be applied to it

[crystal hill]

so why did you start???

[woven swallow]

I can help with that

[median cloud]

Ur too aggressive when it comes to TNT man

Did it with me as well

I swear every time someone says they like TNT u have a reponse equal to "how tf could you possibly like TNT"

[crystal hill]

I was literally praising the maps before this conversation started

[median cloud]

That's not praise that's a backhanded compliment

[crystal hill]

the yellow key thing was a quick jab for being really quite a problem

[median cloud]

"Atleast these don't suck" is not praise

[crystal hill]

there's also this

[median cloud]

Another backhanded compliment

[crystal hill]

[median cloud]

TNT is so shit the only good thing about it is the music

Is basically your premise

[crystal hill]

but it is a good thing

[crystal hill]

I like some of the maps

[median cloud]

Tbh u can dislike TNT but the way u attack ppl for liking TNT is weird and uncalled for

[crystal hill]

now who's being aggressive?

[median cloud]

u started it with me and did it with this other guy as well so it's a u issue

[crystal hill]

he wasn't saying he liked TNT, he was saying the yellow key not appearing in the map wasn't a problem

he literally started it

I appreciate that it was fixed, but having a map just not be completeable at launch is really, really inexcusable

[bitter shoal]

You know what. I'll defend TNT on this. TNT made a patch to fix map 31's yellow key about 8 months after the game's release, which seemed like a long time but suddenly that long wait makes way more sense once I looked at the Final DOOM website where they claim "Id Software has had the fix since July 1996, but we don't know when a patch will be released." So very likely they were expecting iD to patch the map themselves but got fed up waiting on them so decided to do it themselves thus the timeline here.

[crystal hill]

Would you wait 8 months to do it, though?

I can understand waiting some time for iD to release the patch themselves, if they had it. A week, a few weeks, a month, even

but 8 months?

[bitter shoal]

I can't explain why 8 months exactly, but it is still "we expected id to handle the urgency but they didn't", that and technically there was only so much they could do since a patch couldn't reach everyone back then due to not everyoen having internet or not everyone that did being into bulletin board systems so that might've been another reason why; they were probably expecting the patch to come in the form of actual retail revisions on iD's part and their own patch would have had limited reach so there might not have been as much motivation at first.

[crystal hill]

funny you mention the retail factor

that's why I feel so harshly about this whole thing. You are absolutely right that some people wouldn't have access to the internet, or at least know where to find a patch for their copy of Final Doom

which puts further emphasis on needing to play test your levels properly before release so that they work for the people who go to a store, buy the game, and then play that copy

if TNT was a free wad, like all of Team TNT's other stuff, I would hold them to a lesser standard. Not only that, but it would be a wad one could only get from having internet access, and knowing where to find it, so a patch would reach a lot more of those people

[bitter shoal]

my point is that iD is likely to blame here since it seems like they were aware of the issue (and also they were involved with QA for Final DOOM I believe, probably one of Shawn Green's roles with the project) and July 1996 is the same month Final DOOM got released so obviously some playtesting did happen but the patch didn't in a proper form.

[crystal hill]

I'm happy for iD to take some of the blame, but Dario (or Milo, I dont remember which one made Pharaoh) could and should have tested out the map himself, as well

[bitter shoal]

it is a preventable bug for sure but so is every bug that needs to be patched, I'd say other than id not doing anything and TNT waiting maybe a tad too long they reacted appropriately at least.

[crystal hill]

the original conversation was about TNT's quality as a videogame

whether their response was reasonable or not (they could have been way faster with it) doesn't change that they shipped a level that was unbeatable at launch. That's fixed now, and so doesn't factor into it's current quality. Which is why I made an off hand remark about it and planned to leave it at that

[bitter shoal]

well i'm more willing to frame the yellow key thing as a more unfortunate mishap that was bad for everyone, being an overall less quality mapset isn't as easily fixable post-release

(I've been watching A1 play Hell Revealed II and it is basically a PRCP1 version of Hell Revealed lol, except I think HRII seems to actually benefit from that kind of iterating and remixing).

[crystal hill]

Considering the way I play (noclip my beloved), I would probably hate a boring map more than a good map I can't finish

but I feel like, to be objective, I would have to give more grief to the latter, because its literally unbeatable (unless you do some really crazy shit thats way above the paygrade of the average player and unintentional)

[crystal hill]

from what I played, Hell Revealed 2 is like HR1 except without the fun, less punishing maps at the beginning

[sharp wyvern]

not what i said lol

[sharp wyvern]

well like you said it's a commercial product they left it to the people who bought it

[crystal hill]

this is making excuses

and this

[crystal hill]

they were hired, they had a responsibility for their product working

[sharp wyvern]

lol ok bro

[crystal hill]

is it not?

[sharp wyvern]

"dario missed this softlock" "at least he found it eventually" "UMM UMM YOU WANNA EXCUSE BAD GAMES AND

why so aggressive? i was just saying at least he actually fixed it unlike, for example, midway with doom 64's 100% requirements

[crystal hill]

I do think a game you can't beat is a problem

[sharp wyvern]

and you can beat it now

[crystal hill]

yes

[sharp wyvern]

and you're trying to start an argument when i wasn't even arguing

because for some reason you assume everything is meant to be aggressive

[crystal hill]

that's funny

[crystal hill]

also, I thought you didn't care about this argument we weren't having

[sharp wyvern]

why are you trying to be irritating

there's no need for trying to score an "own" here

[crystal hill]

why are you continuing this discussion??

what's the point?

[sharp wyvern]

lol

[barren matrix]

[calm lichen]

I guess getting into TNT late made me unaware or I just forgor but they forgot to put a key in a map?

[crystal hill]

the level designer put the key in the map, but flagged it to only appear in multiplayer

[calm lichen]

Thats kinda funny

[crystal hill]

I guess so. But I can imagine it frustrated a lot of people

[bitter shoal]

It was a key that was placed but it was tagged multiplayer for some reason. I don't know what Dario's side of the story is but an unofficial patch was put out on TNT's website. Modern DOOM ports have it fixed already

[calm lichen]

As someone who makes Doom maps for fun I absolutely know the feeling of forgetting something like that

And as long as he owned up and fixed it then who gives af

[crystal hill]

but this was a commercial product

one people would have bought in stores

[bitter shoal]

with that said, it probably IS better that quality control lays on iD or TNT in this instance since Dario was still 16 years old and in college at the time

[calm lichen]

And? Look at Cyberpunk. Game launched like shit and people don’t really care now that its peak

[crystal hill]

(that's a bad thing)

[calm lichen]

No, its a good thing because that means responsibility was taken and the product at the end of the day was fixed with passion and love

[crystal hill]

it's a bad thing because this kind of behaviour is normalised within the industry

"ok, yes, we made and released an unfinished game for full price, but we'll fix it in a few year's time, we promise"

makes it easier for developers to put out obviously undercooked products

[calm lichen]

Theres a difference between an accident and releasing a shitty product on purpose

[crystal hill]

Cyberpunk releasing in the state that it did was no accident

no developer stumbled and pressed the "release unfinished build of the game" button

[calm lichen]

Its because they were rushed while making a product that needed more time

They were too ambitious

[crystal hill]

unless you mean what happened in TNT - that, I can agree on. It was an accident, not an intentional fuck up

[crystal hill]

tone down the ambitions then

[misty carbon]

what's up, what are you talking about?

[crystal hill]

cyberpunk 2077

[bitter shoal]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that accidentally tagging a key card as multiplayer only is way different than normalized releasing unfinished products that get patched and DLC'd into completion.

[calm lichen]

We’re talking about TNT and the accident where a key was missing

[crystal hill]

I didn't disagree

[misty carbon]

i havent played it

[calm lichen]

Oof, Cybs is peak now

[misty carbon]

[crystal hill]

it's also much easier to fix

release the patch as soon as you can/as soon as you've noticed, and have all new retail copies include the fixed version

[bitter shoal]

So... do you think it is still setting the precedent that you laid out then if you agree that it is an accident?

[crystal hill]

what precedent?

[bitter shoal]

Of releasing unfinished products to be patched to completion

[crystal hill]

this was referring to cyberpunk

TNT wasn't unfinished, it was unbeatable due to a simple mistake

[calm lichen]

I can’t put into words how much this pisses me off. If not for the ambition then we wouldn’t have the fuck up sure but we also wouldn’t have the finished amazing product

[misty carbon]

is recommended??

[crystal hill]

one that should and would have been ironed out within one playtesting session

[calm lichen]

Yes

[crystal hill]

maybe they could have waited a year or more to release the thing in the more finished state

CD Projekt Red has the money for this

[calm lichen]

If gaming studio standards weren’t so uptight then they coulda worked on it more. They were rushed by publishers and fans

[bitter shoal]

Also if there is one person not to tell to tone down the ambition it would be Dario Casali since he and his brother ended up making Plutonia on their own which remarkbly didn't have missing keys soft locking game progression.

So clearly there is some mistake learned here and growth as mappers

[crystal hill]

it was self published

and the fans were pushing them because they teased them with a release date

[misty carbon]

but can version 2.0 be played on a PS4?

[calm lichen]

Sadly not

[misty carbon]

shit

[crystal hill]

you're conflating two different conversations here

[bitter shoal]

(In fact, Plutonia largely exists BECAUSE they kept being denied their maps in TNT so telling them to tone down the ambition kind of backfired and they made the IWAD people prefer to this day)

[crystal hill]

Can you stop?

Again, you are conflating two different conversations going on at the same time

how in hell does my comment on toning down ambitions apply to what is wrong with Pharaoh??

or rather was

[misty carbon]

but the PS4 version is playable, right? No bugs or anything like that?

[bitter shoal]

Right. The bug is fixed in all new versions now

[calm lichen]

Skip out on Cybs till you upgrade

[bitter shoal]

and there was a patch since 8 months after release if you were able to obtain it

[calm lichen]

Its a better experience on modern console

[crystal hill]

should've been out way sooner

[bitter shoal]

oh you're talking about Cyberpunk

[crystal hill]

yeah we are

that's why the conversation isn't making sense to you

[misty carbon]

what i don't have, bro

🥀

[calm lichen]

Trust me man, I getcha. I had to beg for a PS5

I missed out on a whole Christmas for it

[misty carbon]

it be my marvel spider-man and me against the world

[calm lichen]

But all in all TNT at the end of the day is mid af

[crystal hill]

I'm baffled how my offhand comment spiralled into this

[misty carbon]

shit

[calm lichen]

You’re baffled on how conversation points lead to more discussion and conversation?

[crystal hill]

yes I give TNT grief often, because it deserves it. This was one of the many issues I have with it, but good on them for fixing it

[crystal hill]

considering what was said, yes

[calm lichen]

TNT gets its special little place in Civvies sewer count

[misty carbon]

one question: cyberpunk have an online mode?

[calm lichen]

No, but the sequel is rumored to

[crystal hill]

I'm surprised Civvie was as positive towards the master levels as he was

[misty carbon]

in the sequel?

[crystal hill]

TNT has its problems, but the Master Levels is problems

[calm lichen]

Cyberpunk is getting a sequel game

[misty carbon]

Aahh

[calm lichen]

Man, I forgot about the Master Levels 😭

[crystal hill]

lucky you

[misty carbon]

then I can get the platinum

[crystal hill]

it wasn't an awful experience, not at all, but I'm not very interested in a replay

[misty carbon]

are fun in nightmare mode

[full shoal]

Most of the master levels are okay and there are some fun ones too. They get too much hate.

[calm lichen]

Yeah, last I did them was for Doom+Doom 2 binge

[crystal hill]

I can't think of a single one I really enjoyed

most looked ugly and played badly

[full shoal]

I played them through with keyboard only :D Mephisto forced me to switch to mouse but that was also good for my wrist so don't complain

[misty carbon]

for difficulty?

[calm lichen]

They certainly had an idea going but their execution was bad

I like how master levels are now in Eternal

[crystal hill]

the mansion from jim flynn has left scars that have yet to heal

[full shoal]

They are not that hard. Don't let the name fool you

Final Doom is leagues harder

[crystal hill]

They're maybe about as tough as TNT on the whole

[calm lichen]

Plutonia specifically

[crystal hill]

but since there's fewer of them, I could say they are easier

and yeah, Plutonia is leagues ahead of it

[calm lichen]

TNT gave me few problems but Plut kicked my ass

I played it on nightmare recently with the final doomer plus weapon set and it was so fun

But took me a while still because I’m no Zero Master

[crystal hill]

I really want to play it again, because I worry it might be too easy for me now

Playing stuff like Speed of Doom, Resurgence and Sunlust gives you callouses, I tell you

[calm lichen]

You should play it on nightmare with a 2x enemy multiplier

[crystal hill]

I don't hate myself

[calm lichen]

Fair enough

[crystal hill]

(that much)

nightmare I consider to be a fundamentally different experience to UV

[calm lichen]

I can manage hmp with 2x but nothing more

[crystal hill]

HMP is like UV but with fewer enemies and more ammo

but NM is vastly different

[calm lichen]

Its like Resident Evil 4’s professional difficulty

Its hardcore but without autosaves

[bitter shoal]

what is?

[calm lichen]

One death during an S run could lead to you losing hours of time

[calm lichen]

The difference in UV and nightmare

[crystal hill]

I'm not a big RE head

[full shoal]

I feel like pistol starting UV or playing without saves is better way to get meaningful difficulty than going Nightmare. It just alters the game too much

[bitter shoal]

No, not at all. Professional is more like UV and without mid-map saving.

[crystal hill]

and I dont want a 2x enemy modifier. Game wasnt designed for that

[bitter shoal]

Nightmare is a joke difficulty on the developer parts and is so fundamentally game changing it shouldn't be compared to most difficulty modes meant to be played to completion.

[crystal hill]

a lot of maps I've played are quite stingy on ammo

[calm lichen]

Thats the whole point

Is changing everything to make it a new experience or harder

[crystal hill]

I can see the appeal

[bitter shoal]

most custom maps basically act as that already is the thing

[crystal hill]

but I have thousands upon thousands of map packs for that

[calm lichen]

I love changing up the Doom gameplay sometimes to give a new experience

[bitter shoal]

like instead of doubling DOOM's enemy count I just load a harder wad that has that number of enemies by default

[crystal hill]

Changing a level can change the gameplay, somewhat

[calm lichen]

Like playing the game with Duke Nukem weapons or making the game basically a rouge like

[crystal hill]

you do you, I suppose

[calm lichen]

Damn straight

[crystal hill]

but if I wanted to play a game with vastly different gameplay, I'd go play a different game

[bitter shoal]

I can see the appeal but since I want to play new maps constantly I want to play them how they are designed so I don't really leave room to play mods

it would have to be something I've already played but I want to move on to new stuff usually

[crystal hill]

when I've been playing the cacoward wads, I dont tend to spend much time at all on the gameplay mods

don't know what mapset to pair them with, for one thing. Dont care enough to really get to know the gameplay changes eiter

[calm lichen]

That just sounds kinda boring. I love playing a mapset a few times and then trying it with different weapons and modded enemies

[bitter shoal]

It isn't, a lot of great mappers make really exciting things

[crystal hill]

that sounds kind of boring to me in turn

[bitter shoal]

Like my coming off of Plutonia Revisited 2 it had quite a few adrenline pumping maps

and some mapsets will have custom weapons and enemies anyway

[calm lichen]

Ok thats a different story

[crystal hill]

I played a mapset called Mayan Mishap recently. Good mapset, I recommend it. What I loved about it was how the fights were designed, where the enemies were placed, how many, etc etc.

Changing the gameplay would inevitably clash with this design. I'm not saying it would make it worse, but it would make it different

[bitter shoal]

Also though, I love DOOM and don't see it as a game that needs improving which is why I typically lean vanilla.

[crystal hill]

I enjoy Mayan Mishap for what it is, not for what it could be

[calm lichen]

And the difference is the fun

[crystal hill]

yes, which is why I play different maps

[bitter shoal]

Like, I actually get annoyed when people call a game I love "not fun" because it isn't using fancy new mods.

[calm lichen]

I think vanilla Doom is peak

But I also love the modding community

[wintry copper]

same

[crystal hill]

it's a little disheartening to see that 99% of people's knowledge of Doom is either "haha you can play it on a pregnancy test" or the latest GZDoom mod thing

[wintry copper]

also has anyone played TNT2/TNTD yet?

[wintry copper]

same

[calm lichen]

Yeah, I grew up playing vanilla Doom. Most of my time still is vanilla Doom

[bitter shoal]

I hadn't, I heard TNTD is good?

[crystal hill]

I have yet to play myhouse.wad, but I'm a little down on it simply because everyone who talks to me about Doom talks about it and only it

[wintry copper]

from what I hear ye

[crystal hill]

"Doom? Oh yeah, I've heard about myhouse!"

[wintry copper]

planning on playing it once I'm done with Hellmouth E1 and my MM2 playthru

the former of which should be this week

[crystal hill]

But what about the map sets? Going Down? Plutonia 2? Speed of Doom?

[calm lichen]

My favorite source port is Crispy Doom. Classic Doom with uncapped fps

[bitter shoal]

myhouse was neat, not as much of a must play as people make it out to be ||especially one part which ruined the whole thing to me||

[wintry copper]

Speed of Doom mentioned

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

[crystal hill]

can't wait to play it in a year's time

[calm lichen]

Auger Zenith and Doom Zero should be played by all

[crystal hill]

Auger Zenith is incredible

[wintry copper]

I've played a bit of Doom Zero

[calm lichen]

Doom Zero was my first wad ever and is one of my favorite

[wintry copper]

like it especially bc it seems to be a "what if Doom II got more time in the oven" kinda thing

[crystal hill]

they must have made some deals with the devil to get that to be limit removing

[bitter shoal]

Amalgoom is amazing so I am only going to play TNT to prepare for the TNT + Plutonia version of it

[crystal hill]

you think that's traumatic? never play resurgence then

[calm lichen]

After Doom is really good too

[bitter shoal]

also Amalgoom ||is a better horror wad than myhouse||

[wintry copper]

oh one day I will and I will bitch about it 😂

[crystal hill]

speed of doom is as great as it is because you have darkwave to coddle you after the Joshy maps

[calm lichen]

Fr, I loved Amalgoom

[wintry copper]

and then beat it anyway

[crystal hill]

resurgence is all joshy, and its way more brutal

[wintry copper]

so I've heard

it sure is a resurgence for the demons you could say

[calm lichen]

Neon Overdrive is also good

From what I’ve played

[crystal hill]

I keep hearing you specifically talk about it and no one else

is it a popular wad in the community as a whole?

[wintry copper]

it is a recent release that much I know

[bitter shoal]

I believe so. Vytaan played it so it has had good exposure already.

And is worth playing regardless.

[crystal hill]

well, if it gets on the 2025 cacowards, I'll play it eventually

[wintry copper]

it probably will

[bitter shoal]

And I'll just get this out of the way Plutonia 2 is very good, Plutonia Revisited 2 is very good* (*with the caveat that the difficulty and map length ramps up towards the end which si probably why they are PRCP2 maps and not in Joshy's Plutonia 3)

skip Revisited 1

[wintry copper]

Revisited 1 seems decent if a bit inconsistent

[crystal hill]

I don't think you should skil PRCP1

[wintry copper]

cough that Cyberden remake

[crystal hill]

It is very inconsistent, but overall good

nothing like Plut 1 or 2, though

[wintry copper]

probably a bit more Plut1 like than the actual Plut2 on the other hand

not that it's a bad thing in Plut2's case

[bitter shoal]

yeah, PRCP2 is way more consistent and higher quality IMO. I can recommend PRCP2 to random people while PRCP1 is very community projecty.

[wintry copper]

yeah PRCP1 low-key reminds me of CC2 in terms of quality

[crystal hill]

it's not THAT bad

[wintry copper]

and ig Helix would be its equivalent of The Mucus Flow at least in its magnum opusness

[bitter shoal]

if you do have to play PRCP1 I would make it the last one out of the Plutonia wads so that the Plutonia 1 maps aren't as fresh in your head and the revisiting them will feel nicer

[wintry copper]

yeah plus PRCP2 is a lot more recent

[bitter shoal]

Basically PRCP1 was like... Plutonia 1.5 (including difficulty) while if PRCP2 was called Plutonia 3 I wouldn't notice (but again it was stemmed from rejected Plutonia 3 maps so that is why)

(and some of those maps were rejected for a reason but it is still a good wad)

[wintry copper]

and the real Plutonia 3 is still yet to release

can't even imagine what that will be like

[crystal hill]

maybe Joshy can't count to 3, like Valve

[bitter shoal]

haha maybe

[wintry copper]

Valve meanwhile:

https://tenor.com/view/kevinmcgarry-mcgarries-feelingbutterflies-feelbutter-oh-gif-26012814

[bitter shoal]

maybe like with that Plutonia 3, Hunt the Freeman is the Half-Life 3 we are stuck with :(

[crystal hill]

yeah, ok

I don't believe HL3 is coming out until I see Valve themselves confirm it

people have been buzzing for weeks with nothing to show for it

[bitter shoal]

I still need to get HL: Alyx

that can be my Half-Life Community Project 2 in the meantime

[wintry copper]

well in any case they clearly are working on something

we've known this for a while

so there is sizzle to the steak

[crystal hill]

could be more deadlock

or some new franchise, or anything else

[wintry copper]

well it's clearly gonna be a new HL game whatever the case, anyway

[crystal hill]

Sunlust is draining me even when I'm not playing it, lol

there's a wad called 32in24 14 I'm playing alongside it, and it's map 32 is a slaughter map

normally it would be fun, but this just reminds me of Sunlust, so it's burning me out ever so slightly

[mortal silo]

If there isn't a new halflife game announced by the end of the year...
I'll have given up hope.

Steam machine would be cool with a killer app.

[crystal hill]

I have basically no faith it would be a killer app for the steam machine

according to people much smarter than I am, the specs on said machine are good, but not amazing. Unless they optimise it to hell and back to make it run well, I can't imagine the next half life working well on it

[sharp wyvern]

technically not unbeatable 🤓

[crystal hill]

we're still doing this?

[sharp wyvern]

which part

[sharp wyvern]

i'm not arguing lol

why do you have to take everything so seriously?

[crystal hill]

That's how I like to talk

[loud vapor]

sentinel vs sentinel

personally, i’m siding with RulesMcUACFile

[sharp wyvern]

🤔

[loud vapor]

UAC file i have a question

[sharp wyvern]

whats that

[loud vapor]

when i ask it, i want u to answer asap so i know u don’t look it up (no disrespect)

ready?

bro ain’t ready

[loud vapor]

what does UAC stand for

[crystal hill]

[sharp wyvern]

back

whats the question

[loud vapor]

what does UAC stand for

[sharp wyvern]

united aerospace corporation

[loud vapor]

union

[sharp wyvern]

FUCK

i had the uaaf in my head

[loud vapor]

it’s ok

all good, i’m a lore nerd

[crystal hill]

f is right

[sharp wyvern]

i was just thinking abt the UAAF and i forgot that one is a different U

[crystal hill]

from Plutonia 2?

[sharp wyvern]

...no, from the Doom Bible and Doom 2016

[crystal hill]

you had a chance to be cool

[sharp wyvern]

doom bible is cool

[crystal hill]

so is Plutonia 2

[sharp wyvern]

not where the uaaf come from tho

[crystal hill]

it has a uaaf though

[loud vapor]

VEGA

@tiny rain

[bitter shoal]

Plutonia 2 is a narrative sequel to Plutonia and made the formation of the UAAF as part of its story (in the actual game there are textures with the UAAF logo)

so it was probably inspired by the Doom bible

UAAF means the same thing, Union Aerospace Armed Forces

[stoic dock]

iirc zeromaster did beat TNT on Nightmare in one sitting

[bitter shoal]

difficulty level doesn't matter for what we were talking about (and he played a version of the IWAD that fixes map 31)

[stoic dock]

ah ok

[stiff basalt]

Just play the game in coop lul

[crystal hill]

you need friends who like doom for that

[calm lichen]

Depends on if you play on sourceport or og

Cause you can more than definitely turn on multiplayer objects in ports like GZ

[bitter shoal]

These source ports didn't exist in 1996 which was when the bug in question was still present for most people. I don't think there was a command line to enable multiplayer objects and monsters either? At least I couldn't find one looking at Doomwiki.

And modern TNT releases are patched to have the bugfix (and if you have an unpatched version I assume ZDOOM automatically RAM- patches it) so it is kind of a non-issue in modern times

[halcyon willow]

Pretty sure you could just run a LAN game and then have no one join (memory is a bit hazy from 1997 lol)

[calm lichen]

As someone who wasn’t alive in 1997 my memory of it is also hazy

[stiff basalt]

-coop_spawns was a blessing from modern ports

[native anchor]

Isn’t it ironic that Final Doom was considered the last mainline Classic Doom entry despite Doom 64 releasing the year after Final Doom.

And technically decanonizing Final Doom, at least if we aren’t considering the expanded universe idea.

[atomic dust]

were TNT and Plutonia even considered canon or at least referenced in modern Doom?

[native anchor]

They’re not strictly referenced. But that doesn’t mean they cannot be canon.

[crystal hill]

I would imagine Final Doom would be canon until proven otherwise

[native anchor]

But also, because Final Doom and Doom 64 would be the 3rd and 4th mainline entries, wouldn’t that mean Doom 3 is called that because it’s the first entry to be full 3D?

Especially with the logo for the game having the “3” be styled more like a cubed. And a cube is a 3D shape.

[little oar]

DOOM 3 has that title because it's the third mainline DOOM game id worked on. 64 was outsourced to Midway

[native anchor]

Right, but it is still a mainline entry regardless.

At least, it is now with the new trilogy.

Though you could treat as more of an expansion pack for Doom 2 with extra steps in that case.

I mean, Final Doom is also sort of advertised as a standalone expansion pack.

[little oar]

For Final DOOM you can definitely throw it under the expansion label if you really wanted to. 64 is a bit too different graphically and functionally (enemies stats are changed around) to where it should be considered its own thing imo

[native anchor]

Right. But it almost felt like it was originally meant as some canon spinoff. After all, we have stuff like that in other franchises like Serious Sam: Last Hope which is within the main timeline but a VR title simultaneously.

And as another example, Spiral is a Saw spinoff, but that also makes it the 9th because there’s no other reason the next film would be called “Saw X”.

X = 10.

[full shoal]

I think there is no sense in forcing games (or movies) into a numbered order when they are not. It means that the numbering is somehow ture, pure, fact of universe when actually it is as made up thing as expansions or version numbers or remakes and whatever. So calling anything "real doom 3" is absurd when the "real doom 3" is doom 3.

You can list the order when games came out, but then you need to list every WAD ever made also

which would make Doom 2 something like Doom 2488

[little oar]

The thing with Final DOOM is that its creation was mostly Romero's doing separate from what most of id was up to. It was a means to keep revenue flowing in while they worked on Quake. I don't think most of them really knew or cared about its existence, so spinoff is probably the best word for it.

[native anchor]

Same with Doom 64 I guess for when they were working on Quake II.

[little oar]

Wouldn't be surprised if that one was true, but I don't know that for sure.
The Final DOOM one is easy because Romero talks about it in his book, but he had left id by the time Quake 2/DOOM 64 were a thing so he didn't really talk about post-Quake 1 id much

[full shoal]

Doom 64 is a much more complicated story. There is plenty of good videos on Youtube explaining how it came to be

[little oar]

Also true
Trying to label every DOOM release would also get messy because where does stuff like Master Levels of DOOM II or Maximum DOOM fall?

[little oar]

Do you have a good one on hand by chance? I'd love to watch those

[full shoal]

I consider Final Doom a map pack like Master Levels.

[little oar]

I consider it a spinoff but still a separate game since unlike Master Levels, you don't need DOOM II to run it
It's a completely separate wad that can be ran by itself (even if it shares a lot of stuff)

[full shoal]

https://youtu.be/TCRK_2cfDlk?si=D-99TKNjBdOsBeFY

[little oar]

So classic DOOM to me is I, II, Final DOOM, and 64

Oh shoot a what happened video even better

[full shoal]

That is actually true. And it gets more complicated when the Final Doom for Playstation is different and has like Doom2 lvls if I'm not wrong

[little oar]

Final DOOM on ps1 is really weird, it has master levels thrown in there too

[native anchor]

PS1 CE even threw in Sigil.

[little oar]

PS1 CE?

[native anchor]

The Doom CE mod.

Recreation of the PS1 port.

[little oar]

Give me a second I have no idea what that is

[native anchor]

With some modernization.

[little oar]

Oh

[full shoal]

And of course Romero has named Sigil episodes 5 and 6. But also No Rest For The Living is "official" and so on and so on

[crystal hill]

No Rest For the Living was officially included with the XBOX 360 port when it came out

In fact, I think that was the only way (legally) to get it for years

[native anchor]

I also always felt Doom 64 as more like Doom 2.5. It is a sequel to Doom 2, but not really Doom 3 either. Does tie with it being a canon spinoff if you can call it that.

[crystal hill]

I dont really put much stock in what games are called. If Id called Animal Crossing for the gamecube Doom 3, that wouldnt make it Doom 3

[native anchor]

BFG Edition also has No Rest For The Living. And you can use the Nerve WAD in other sourceports.

[crystal hill]

That came out a while after the XBOX port, no?

[crystal hill]

A slightly less facetious example would be the GTA games. Would Vice City and San Andreas not count as mainline because they arent numbered as such?

[native anchor]

BFG Edition released in 2012. So 2 years after NRFTL on Xbox Live.

[dim arch]

can the multiplayer chat actually work in this bum game

[sharp wyvern]

i think modern id considers it just an expansion

[wintry copper]

yeah I consider them expansion packs as well in the same vein as the Quake 1 mission packs

[sharp wyvern]

idk what i consider them atp

[crystal hill]

Final Doom is hard to define for me too, but I think Doom 64 is a proper sequel/stand alone game

[sharp wyvern]

final doom originally would technically count as its own game but final doom currently seems to be considered an 'expansion' by new id so like it's a weird midpoint

[sharp wyvern]

yea

[crystal hill]

Well, stuff like blue shift and opposing force were standalone releases, but were understood to be expansions for HL1

[sharp wyvern]

this is true

doomwiki calls it "standalone doom ii modifications" (cowards) and wikipedia just straight up calls it the third entry of the series

the steam release and doom + doom ii call it "doom ii episodes"

the original box for it calls it "two doom ii episodes" but also calls it "the final chapter of the doom series"

[crystal hill]

I just call Final Doom the worthy successor to Doom II and the other one

[native anchor]

What would Doom 64 be then?

[crystal hill]

doom 64 was never an expansion pack

[native anchor]

But it’s not Doom 3 either.

What is it then?

[crystal hill]

I'd say it's the third major Doom game

Same way Grand Theft Auto Vice City is the fourth major Grand Theft Auto game

[mighty walrus]

love 64

[bitter shoal]

pretend it's the third Final DOOM game

branching timelines

or fourth if you want to include that one that didn't get in, I forget what it was called

[crystal hill]

well, it didn't get in

It'd be like considering that sonic skateboarding game as part of the series

[bitter shoal]

neither did DOOM 64 I'm in a rabbit hole of hypertheticals D:

[crystal hill]

that didn't get in, but that was officially licensed and released as "DOOM - Another one"

[bitter shoal]

I remember what it was called now

Perdition's Gate

[native anchor]

Doom 64 is really more like “Doom 2.5” in my eyes. It is a sequel to Doom 2, but not truly Doom 3.

And had a lot less things from Doom 1 and 2 in. Mostly from N64 limitations.

[crystal hill]

it has it's own appeal, and content

Doom 1 and 2 are very similar to each other. If Doom 2 can be considered a real sequel to Doom 1, I don't see why D64 can't do the same

[mighty walrus]

Doom 64 is not 2.5, It's the next Doom after 2, lol

[native anchor]

Yes but Doom 3 also is a thing. And it’s the third manly game Id made hence why it’s called that.

[crystal hill]

why isn't Doom 2016 called Doom 4?

[mighty walrus]

🙄

[crystal hill]

Again, names do not matter when it comes to sequels

[mighty walrus]

Thank you for the doomsplain. I'm well aware of the games

[crystal hill]

I'm batting for D64 even though I don't like it, because it is definitely a part of the franchise

[mighty walrus]

also wtf is a manly game

[calm lichen]

Doom 64 is the classic version of Doom 3

[crystal hill]

and it is definitely a doom game, like Doom 1 and 2 before it

[calm lichen]

While Final Doom is like a side game

Its canon but not important

[crystal hill]

Plutonia is important in my heart

[bitter shoal]

This conversation is just giving reason #2 as to why DOOM 64 being called 64 was a mistake, the first being that it misled people into thinking it was a DOOM 1 port

supposedly

from what I heard, maybe not, but I can confirm the #2 reason being why it was a mistake :P

[mighty walrus]

this conversation makes me realize people are annoying lol

not you or rules

[crystal hill]

speak for yourself, I'm very annoying

[mighty walrus]

lmao

[crystal hill]

try getting me to talk about TNT, and you'll see

[mighty walrus]

alright, go ahead 👀

[crystal hill]

read down from here

[sharp wyvern]

I agree that nowadays Doom 64 is a main entry but now I’m wondering if Id considered it a spin-off back then

[crystal hill]

I can't imagine it's a spin off

side game, non canon, expansion pack, whatever, maybe

but a spin off to me has to be vastly different to the series it's spinning off from

[sharp wyvern]

Yea poor choice of wording I meant side game

[crystal hill]

I would think so

After Doom 2, I imagine the bigwigs at id thought little of the old idtech1 engine

Can't blame them, considering they went on to make Quake

[bitter shoal]

They probably treated it as the same thing as Final DOOM or whatever Wolfenstein 3D mission pack was that was developed by someone else and whatnot, in that they probably didn't care and saw it as more DOOM content to sell first and foremost. They were more likely to consider something a spinoff if it was like, a racing game or whatever Mighty DOOM was.

Also TNT's music truly is its lasting legacy, like half the maps if you leave DOOM Speed Demos stream on use its music.

[median trellis]

what is the best level in ultimate doom

[mighty walrus]

bless this channel for its normalcy. General is giving me a headache

[bitter shoal]

We have only the most normal conversations about DOOM 6||7||

[crystal hill]

I came here to talk about Doom, so that's what I intend to do

[crystal hill]

Something from E1 or E2M1 for me

[mighty walrus]

I come here to read about Doom

so go-an

[median trellis]

romero freaking cooked with e1

[bitter shoal]

probably that one Sandy map with the firblu building because it feels cheating to pick a Romero map

[crystal hill]

well, Romero made (mostly) good maps

[median trellis]

I'd say e1m7 is the best doom 1 map objectively

[crystal hill]

I have a soft spot for fortress of mystery though, shit a it is

[mighty walrus]

What do you think of DII ML's, and why are they so bad?

[bitter shoal]

That was a Sandy map right?

[mighty walrus]

jkjk only 85% are

[median trellis]

fortress of mystery was very memorable for me

[crystal hill]

they aren't well designed

[mighty walrus]

nopes

[crystal hill]

the mansion by jim flynn makes me want to jump off of the roof

[bitter shoal]

I don't have access to Master Levels, I just know the better levels came from other mapsets with their own internal continuity and other levels are basically Tim Willits's resume to work at iD later.

[median trellis]

I have a soft spot for the master levels

the one that has the city area is my favorite

I forgot the name

[crystal hill]

if you have doom 1 or 2 on steam, you can play the master levels

[bitter shoal]

I have a retail copy, but now I'm wondering if I should just play the megawad that black tower and whatnot comes from for the full experience

[median trellis]

I love that map lol

[crystal hill]

my condolences

[mighty walrus]

TEETH

that is all

[crystal hill]

teeth isn't the worst master level

[twin mortar]

One of the best ones imo 😌

[mighty walrus]

ew

[median trellis]

I like the tom mustaine map in there, he designed it with his dad which is awesome

[mighty walrus]

agree to disagree

[crystal hill]

which one was that?

[median trellis]

paradox I think

[mighty walrus]

ah yes

[crystal hill]

doesnt ring a bell at all

[mighty walrus]

I like Mephisto's Mausoleum personally, dk why, I just think the inside royal rumble thing is cool lol

[median trellis]

tom mustaine is a beast, his tnt maps were excellent

and he made the music for tnt

[crystal hill]

some of it

[stoic dock]

Habitat is The Room of doom maps (so bad it's good) but the ost of it bangs for sure

[crystal hill]

the other composers did good work too

[stoic dock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7vFC2kgCg

by Tom Mustaine

Also for the superior map Heck

[median trellis]

banger

[bitter shoal]

music that is overqualified for the content it's for

[stoic dock]

i don't think habitat is that horrible

it's really halfbaked but I'd rather have a dumb and halfbaked level with obvious rookie mistakes than a level that is just extremely annoying

but yes you are correct

[median trellis]

it's funny how some casali maps were cut from tnt but maps like habitat and baron's den made it

[stoic dock]

baron's den had me lost badly that I ended up getting all secrets by accident

they placed a vital key for progression behind an inconspicuous non-colliding wall

[median trellis]

that map is unplayable

[bitter shoal]

yeah... When Dario played Habitat he just absolutely lost his cool. He was PISSED and went on a long rant.

[stoic dock]

being able to end the map within 20 seconds if you know where to go, can't convince me that wasn't an oversight

[median trellis]

reasonable crashout

[stoic dock]

i'd still rather play habitat over some maps in the master levels

[median trellis]

totally

[stoic dock]

i remember getting really annoyed at teeth.wad/express elevator to hell

[bitter shoal]

Although I suspect that their terrible experiences on TNT probably are why Plutonia had such good pacing, they were probably trying to appease ID and making sure they didn't have to overhaul their maps for being too long, but I still sympathize with their maps getting rejected for ones like Habitat.

[stoic dock]

I have mixed feelings on plutonia

you can see that they had love for the craft but I don't vibe with most levels

[crystal hill]

Plutonia has some stinkers, but it more than makes up for it with some great levels

[stoic dock]

they do look very pleasing. like I said, it's clear they had love for what they were doing and that I respect enough

[crystal hill]

I'm kind of glad their TNT levels got rejected. I'd rather have a bigger, better Plutonia as a result

[stoic dock]

the last third of plutonia gave me some tnt flashbacks with how big and sometimes confusing they got lol

[median trellis]

plutonia broke me when I first played it, but it becomes much more fun when you know the levels well

[crystal hill]

Even the latter Plutonia levels arent so big

[stoic dock]

I remember when I played baron's lair on plutonia, played the 'LET THEM FIGHT' meme when I unleashed the cyberdemon on the revenants
fun

[crystal hill]

(odyssey of noises being an exception, I dont love that one)

[bitter shoal]

Probably the only level I consider more bad than good is maybe Impossible Mission, and even that has good outdoor sections. I think map 29 being confusing is just a reality of city levels in DOOM in general

[crystal hill]

onslaught is my pick for worst Plutonia level

never had an enjoyable playthrough of it, even after getting very good at the game

[stoic dock]

oh yeah that one was unhinged

[bitter shoal]

That is the Circle of Death level right?

[crystal hill]

no

it's the chaingunner right next to you at spawn level

[stoic dock]

I vowed to beat at least half of plutonia's levels on UV without saving

Onslaught was one where I used saves lol

[bitter shoal]

oh, I liked that level

[crystal hill]

I didn't like having to run the gauntlet to get decent weaponry afterwards

[stoic dock]

Congo, Well of Souls, Aztec, Ghost Town, Baron's Lair, Caughtyard, Realm, Hunted, The Crypt, Genesis, The Twilight, The Omen, Neurosphere, NME, Cyberden

those were the ones I beat saveless on UV during this year's revisit of Plutonia

[median trellis]

try go 2 it as well!

[stoic dock]

I do remember trying it saveless but eventually I just gave up, dunno why

I definitely enjoyed it at times, very chaotic but funny map

You can physically feel that the bros were having fun making that level

[crystal hill]

Go 2 It is a blast

[median trellis]

it's not actually that bad, they give you the bfg at the very start

[crystal hill]

not nearly as challenging as Go 4 It, plenty of cells and megaspheres

[bitter shoal]

Go 2 It is probably one of the easier maps in Plutonia, ironically enough

[crystal hill]

naaaaaah

One wrong rocket from a cyberdemon can end you

[stoic dock]

I vaguely remember caughtyard being one of the less hard ones

Hunted I gotta give props for giving a shot at stalker horror, even though I played it without sound since the bunny song made it less immersive imo

[crystal hill]

Once you play Arch Violence in Plut 2 for weeks on end, you no longer fear Viles

[stoic dock]

they fear U

the only thing they fear is u

[crystal hill]

I need to replay Plutonia someday soon

[native anchor]

Favorite Classic Doom sourceport?

[stiff basalt]

ZDoom protected me from all vanilla doom bs

[crystal hill]

I am a filthy GZDoom adherent because some of my favourite wads require it, and because some of the QoL features are really good

[little oar]

Does the kex engine (DOOM I + II) count?
If not, then prboom is my goto, though dsda-doom has been really nice from the little I've used of it

[mellow matrix]

Woof personally. I get all the features/options I want without any of the superfluous (to me) speedrunning stuff DSDA-DooM is clogged up with. Woof also has a crunchiness to its visuals that I really like.
You can't play super advanced GZDooM stuff with it but I almost never play anything outside of Boom/MBF21.

[stiff basalt]

You can play legacy of rust almost flawlessly with it

The only thing missing from the kex port is the new monster showcase
And the lava from e2m1 where the incinerator is doesnt slow you down as much as it does on the kex port

[pearl tiger]

Seems that Nintendo got DOOM + DOOM II mixed up with DOOM (2016) on the S2 compatability site, because the KEX Engine port was put back to the supported side while the reboot is still unsupported on the new console.

[wicked chasm]

https://tenor.com/view/rip-and-tear-doom-doomguy-isabelle-isabelle-animal-crossing-gif-26156184

[stiff basalt]

I wish the animal crossing and doom eternal crossover never happened

[native anchor]

Little bit flashy at times, but still decent.

At least, it’s a flashier Chocolate Doom because you can make it look and feel like Chocolate Doom.

[oak adder]

I heard about that one

if I played that yall would never see me again

[sharp wyvern]

TEETH is fun 🕊️

[mighty walrus]

I'm never giving a Doom opinion again lol

[sharp wyvern]

im not huge on its gameplay but i think it has a lot of neat setpieces you can tell he put effort into how some parts of it looked

like the revenant coffin thing in the off to the side house is fun

[mighty walrus]

I think every single thing I've said this week nobody has agreed with so my Doom takes stay secret from here on.

[sharp wyvern]

i agree with u on mephisto :(

[mighty walrus]

thx😭🙏

I said I liked Doom II and got shit on. I said I like pb more than micro missiles and got shat on. I said I like 2016's atmosphere and got obliterated. I said I like TAG1 and got destroyed. I mentioned Quake original and was corrected on like three things from kids thirty years younger than me who've played less. I got schooled on Romero and Gordon and Bethesda by a child who had zero sources. I'm never saying an opinion after today lol.

[native anchor]

How am I supposed to get Chocolate Doom to work on Steam Deck?

[sharp wyvern]

TAG 1 is goated

[woven swallow]

I don’t have a single favorite Doom source port because I use a ton of them for different purposes. For classic Doom with modern QoL features I use Dsda Doom, Woof, Cherry, Nyan, etc. For big total conversions, I use GZDoom-based ports

[cold wadi]

yah large public discords will always have dicks lol

[bitter shoal]

I know right. A sporting goods store on every corner, between each starbucks.

[ruby dome]

FYI!

[mighty walrus]

trueeee

[calm lichen]

I love the Crispy ports

I wanna find a classic port that supports Chex Quest but I can’t

I’ve only gotten modern ports like GZ to run it, anyone have ideas?

Also, has there been any news on the GZ alternative UZDoom or whatever it was?

[hexed escarp]

there is a dehacked version of chex quest, so you can play that in crispy doom or whatever port you want

because the chex executable basically only changed things that are already changeable with dehacked

so its able to be a perfect recreation

[calm lichen]

Hm, I’ll hafta look for it

[hexed escarp]

oh hmm

actually apparently there are some slight differences/issues

[calm lichen]

Oh?

[hexed escarp]

but seems like its close enough

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/chex/chexdeh

[loud vapor]

that’s messed up, doom II is awesome

and getting hated for saying you like 2016s atmosphere is war crime bro.. the atmosphere for that game was actually breathtaking

i think you were talking to arkham asylum inmates cause holy bad take

[woven swallow]

Chocolate doom supports it

[calm lichen]

Wait fr?

I gotta check that out after this war

I got two guys fighting in chess rn over expansions

[wintry copper]

dude Project Brutality objectively clears M*rk_IV's shit 😭

those people are just stupid

[mighty walrus]

fr thanks dude

[crystal hill]

Return to Hadron may be the 2nd Doom 1 wad I've played that I would consider really good

It avoids most of the pitfalls of D1 wads, in that it gives you adequate weaponry to deal with the cacodemons that are prevalent everywhere, shotgunners and zombies arent 80% of the encounters, and its got excellent, lightning fast pacing

I honestly forgot I was playing Doom 1, without my SSG or the D2 monsters, which is high praise towards the encounter design

[loud vapor]

np

[mellow matrix]

Mappers that know how to design fights around the rocket launcher in Ultimate DooM are much appreciated. Shotgunning the occasional Caco is fine but no one wants to spend 2 boxes of shells during one fight.

[atomic dome]

Oh ppl are alive here

No way

[fierce junco]

Yeah bro, the classic games are peak

[mellow matrix]

Similarly, mappers that realize Berserk is basically the Doom 1 SSG are a god send. It usually leads to creative compositions and at the very least is a nice change of pace.

[atomic dome]

Cuz no one in general and dark ages chat

[twin mortar]

General is definitely not dead right now brochacho

[atomic dome]

It was

[crystal hill]

Amen, brother

Doom 1 mappers treat the rocket launcher like its the BFG even though they put in way too many cacos and barons to deal with without it

[crystal hill]

Berserk is an excellent sidegrade to the SSG. In a game without the SSG, it becomes all the more important as an offensive tool

[atomic dome]

Can yall teach me smt about classic doom cuz I only know the music e1m1 ant the horror maps

[crystal hill]

What do you want to know?

[atomic dome]

Like idk js simple things

Ik more of the lore

[median trellis]

just play it it's awesome

[bitter shoal]

once again i glaze PRCP2's map 21 for understanding how to make a DOOM 1 map (even though it isn't one)

[crystal hill]

The chaingun is superior to the shotgun, save ammo for the former by using the latter when you can

[median trellis]

that map looks sick, it looks similar to the penultimate level of one of my recent wads

[bitter shoal]

I just went through SIGIL II maps on doomwiki and counted 120 rockets total (I almost didn't want to count E6M8 because that is the boss fight map)

[bitter shoal]

yeah it was a great map, I enjoyed it quite a bit

[median trellis]

sigil 2 was great but 1 felt more special

[bitter shoal]

I just looked at PRCP2's map 21 rocket count and it has 160.

[crystal hill]

Have you considered proposing marriage to PRCP2, by any chance?

You talk about it more than I talk to my family

[bitter shoal]

it convinced me DOOM 1 maps can be good

[crystal hill]

Despite being a Doom 2 wad

Sigil (and to a lesser extent E1 of Doom 1) convinced me of that before I played Return to Hadron

Its just that no one bothers

[median trellis]

@bitter shoal do you make maps?

[bitter shoal]

I started one and even made a couple of textures but I never completed one

[wintry copper]

just played No One in MM2

not quite as good as Rapp's Dens of Iniquity but still loved it, very challenging and pushed me quite a lot plus the MIDI is god-tier

[mellow matrix]

You should play Base Ganymede if you haven't. Another wad that does a good job making rockets readily available. Although IIRC it leans kinda heavy on the chaingun in spots.

[twin mortar]

Love DOOM II. Replaying it always feels fresh and the new enemies are always very cool to see even though I've played through game multiple times

[bitter shoal]

speaking of DOOM 1 maps that should let you use the rocket launcher, it looks like the Ep. 1 that Spectere played on D!Zone'd is like... the inverse of Hell Revealed where there are like four barons total in a mapset that averages like 250 enemies full of imps and shotgunners and you get a rocket launcher and way too much ammo to nuke them with increasingly worse quality of maps because the first four were made last (and I consider ugly 1994 stuff to be an inverse of HR as well since that map aesthetics in HR were actually decent), but one of the maps made me realize the other thing about making sure a map is RL friendly is making sure there is enough room to use it as well.

[true urchin]

who's mark iv

[hollow tree]

Probably referring to Sgt Mark IV, creator of Brutal Doom

anyway, I like both brutal doom and PB. also there are some good derivatives of brutal doom

[loud vapor]

peak profile banner

[mellow matrix]

lmao thanks
it's so insanely violent

[crystal hill]

I have. Its in the upper echelon of Doom 1 wads, but its still not very high up my list of favourites

[crystal hill]

The midi is the only thing I remember from it now, lol

Organic Gods/Destiny was made for No One in MM2, but it belongs to Jade Earth

[wintry copper]

yeah

didn't feel like typing out his full name

[slate gyro]

Hey guys, have you played Blood? Nightdive is going to release a remaster and it looks kinda cool, but I wanna know what others think about it since it's the first time I hear about the game

[calm lichen]

Dude

This isn’t just any remaster

Its a remaster of the remaster Blood: Fresh Supply

[slate gyro]

So it's a re-remaster?

[mellow matrix]

Kind of?
Fresh Supply was a lot of educated guesswork reverse engineering. Refreshed Supply is a proper source port.
Warner Bros did typical petty corpo bullshit that prevented Nightdive from updating Fresh Supply with anything substantial.
Refreshed Supply is being published by Atari and Warner Bros, so Nightdive should have a lot more freedom patching things post-(re)release.
Refreshed Supply also got the Marrow and Death Wish modders hired so buying it is kinda sorta paying them for their work if that's something you feel is appropriate.

[cold wadi]

yah classic doom has a huge community with a ton of modding discords

[woven swallow]

yes i heard it before, i am a blood fan, sad they are making me pay blood again and not giving it away for free to people who already owned fresh supply

[slate gyro]

That's because of Warner right? That's pretty scummy. Luckily, it'll be my first time buying the game if I do decide that I want it

But for everyone else, it does suck if you're not even given a discount

[wintry copper]

yeah the new remaster should be a free update

idfk why it isn't, it legit pisses me off

[calm lichen]

Right?

I bought Fresh Supply and I feel absolutely screwed

[little oar]

You get a 66% discount if you own fresh supply, but that's it

[slate gyro]

And how much does the game normally cost?

[little oar]

$30

So from $30 to $10

It's still not ideal but it's the best they could do since Warner refused otherwise

[bitter shoal]

oh cool Bio-Menace is getting a remaster. Aging Charles Bronson with a MacGyver mullet is an iconic protag.

Only really saying that here since we are already talking about remasters

[slate gyro]

My god. Isn't it too expensive? Like, the game looks really cool and I totally dig the vibe, but for 30 bucks... I might have to think about it throughout

[little oar]

I think something about this to keep in mind is that this is a proper port
As far as I know, Fresh Supply had to be reverse engineered whereas with Refreshed they have the source code to work with this time around

...doesn't excuse $30 for a game this old, but it's something to consider I guess

Also Warner Tax™

[autumn galleon]

I ate a cacodemon

Why does it taste like a meatball

WhY iS It SpYcy

[native anchor]

Anyone else think the Plasma Rifle in Classic Doom is kinda useless?

I do use it on occasion, but in most circumstances, the BFG would be the better option and would already tear down big hordes of demons anyway.

[vestal flax]

its your highest dps option if you don't have the bfg, so it definitely has uses
but obviously if you have the bfg it's just outclassed

not every map gives you the bfg after all

[native anchor]

Well, the only instances for not having the BFG is either all of Episode 2 in Doom 1. Or until Tricks and Traps in Doom 2. That is if you're the type of guy that saves at the start of each level.

[vestal flax]

yeah I'm talking pistol start

[native anchor]

Well, yes. And especially if you deicde to play by the "die > pistol start" way. But that does feel like it was meant to be an extra challenge. Id always implemented quick saves in Classic Doom, so it's simply by design.

And same with the live system in Wolfenstein 3D.

[bitter shoal]

id designed levels with pistol start in mind, because dying in DOOM and Wolfenstein 3D reset your inventory and health (automatically loading a save is source port behavior)

early custom WADs usually didn't design for pistol start though, AFAIK

[native anchor]

Actually, I feel like playing Classic Doom without saves. Though I don't usually die very frequently, so it won't be as bad. Just some levels like E4M6 would be a bit problematic.

The Cyberdemon in E4M6 is definitely finicky to fight because you'd be standing on a thin ledge, and you're very close to the Cyberdemon so you don't have a whole lot of wiggle room to dodge. You really have to play carefully.

[woven swallow]

I’m gonna hunt you down

[mighty walrus]

The plasma in Classic Doom is my favorite gun

In no way is it useless. Literally melts everything.

[analog ridge]

The Shocktrooper gives the Chaingun Bob a run for his money.

[native anchor]

Shocktrooper?

[analog ridge]

In Legacy of Rust

[native anchor]

Well I never played that.

I use Chocolate Doom.

[grave pilot]

Legacy of Rust is fun

[mellow matrix]

Fights designed around the plasma rifle are some of the most fun you can have in DooM. A fight with the BFG has you walking into the room with your chest puffed out and a smirk on your face. Plasma rifle fights a lot of the time turn that on its head where you know you have firepower but your back is going to be against the wall and you'll have to fight like a cornered animal if you wanna make it out alive.
Plasma rifle is awesome.

[grave pilot]

It also has a better sound IMO, makes my brain turn off.

[sharp wyvern]

my favourite wad

[vestal flax]

for everyone who complains about D64 lost souls, I highly encourage you to give Quake 1 episode 4 a try and have some fun with spawns
absolute masterpiece of game design, 10/10

[crystal hill]

Maybe if you play continuously, and even then only if you have the BFG

Play pistol start and you will realise it is a godsend

[native anchor]

Well I am now playing without saves. So I play by the whole pistol start on death thing.

Even though I don't die that much in Doom 1 and 2 to begin with.

[crystal hill]

When I say pistol start, I mean starting every level with just a pistol

[native anchor]

Chocolate Doom or KEX Doom?

[crystal hill]

GZDoom

But if I had to choose between those two, Kex, simply due to its accessibility and playing more things

[native anchor]

Yeah. It's the most out of the box version.

It's the Linux Mint of Doom sourceports.

[crystal hill]

Ehhhh. That might be GZDoom

[native anchor]

And you can make it look more like Chocolate Doom if you really want to.

[crystal hill]

Kex is like Windows or Mac

Even Linux Mint takes some getting used to

[native anchor]

And for me, I tend to cap the framerate down to 60. I don't really see a need to go anywhere above that for Classic Doom and Doom 64. And even Doom 3 is capped at 62-63 FPS because of Id Tech 4 limits, at least that's what I think is the case.

[crystal hill]

I dont think Ive capped mine. I say I dont think because Ive never bothered to check, lol

[native anchor]

Doom sourceports are like Linux distros. You just have so many options. And the Kex port is the best starting point, like how Mint is.

[crystal hill]

Kex, unlike all the others, is really the modern default

You dont need to look around to find out about them and how to play them, unlike all other source ports. Hence my Windows comparison

[native anchor]

I guess you could also cap it all the way down to the lowest refresh rate available in the resolution options for a more authentic feel since Classic Doom originally ran at only 35 FPS.

And I guess Doom 64 originally ran at 30 FPS.

[desert tinsel]

hi

[terse depot]

hi

[bitter shoal]

hi

[sharp wyvern]

hi

[thick glade]

goodbye

[loud vapor]

hi

[drowsy root]

i love that in 2016 you have the classic maps and in eternal you can play doom 1 and 2 in game

[solemn socket]

yea okay dude how’s this even remotely fair

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1099127093419311237/1444891365170348033/IMG_8542.png?ex=692e5b72&is=692d09f2&hm=d60d4bb83444fbaf370cb56a6e36b296a7a8f233c4040384aa236d7add623cba&

[loud vapor]

lmao

[solemn socket]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1099127093419311237/1444902344105000981/IMG_8543.png?ex=692e65ab&is=692d142b&hm=eda5f591a50297d93a2089ffe08a739b4d9d7c935fad916d752e928fe23b4c97&

the fact that it’s boosted by the turbo totem makes it really ragequitting

[nimble cedar]

hii im new here i was tyring to download myhouse when i saw i was banned from the doomworld forums despite never even making an account anyone know whats going on?

[bitter shoal]

Someone else had this issue before, probably a subnet ban or something

[nimble cedar]

ahh ok is there a way to fix it?

[bitter shoal]

no but I could DM you the google drive for the download maybe

[nimble cedar]

oh 😭 ok then

[bleak heart]

Btw do you get anything when you find every secret in classic doom in all episodes?

[twin mortar]

No, but it's not possible anyway

[bleak heart]

Wait how?

[twin mortar]

These games are infamously fucked up, DOOM II took over 20 years to get all secrets in and DOOM 1 still has a few impossible to get secrets

There's just secrets straight up impossible to activate, for example in Thy Flesh Consumed there's two secret sectors that the player physically cannot reach because they're blocked off by torches

[bleak heart]

Oh...

And the game counts those 2?

[twin mortar]

Yeah every secret is required to get if you want that sweet sweet 100% secrets mark, even secrets that are not possible to get

Take a look at this great video by Decino and its sequel if you want more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlCfkKZC874

[crystal hill]

Doom is designed to accomodate people playing on a level by level basis. By which I mean, people starting over from scratch on each level

So 100% secrets for the whole game wouldnt really worl

[bleak heart]

Okay.

[calm lichen]

Peaktuber mentioned

[bitter shoal]

Don't forget that zero master went out and immediately embarrassed that video on one of the challenges deemed "impossible"

[crystal hill]

Does UZDoom have a proper release now?

[calm lichen]

The Pain Elemental one right?

[bitter shoal]

I believe so

[calm lichen]

I dunno why I said right tbh

Think its habit at this point. I knew it for sure but still typed “right?”

[calm lichen]

I think so? You may have to fact check it but I saw some rumblings about its icon being different

[cerulean pumice]

its at version 4.14 i believe

[crystal hill]

Might check it once Im home

[halcyon willow]

Yes, the first official build is out

https://zdoom.org/downloads

[sharp wyvern]

In Doom 64 specifically, inactive spectres are initially rendered as opaque demons with a green tint (a nod back to the nightmare spectre),

Can any of my Doom PSX/64 experts confirm this doomwiki statement?

[crystal hill]

Oh, I think this is true. Maybe not the specific reference though

Idle spectres look quite green, and quickly turn transparent when they see you

Then when they die, they go back to being green and visible

[bitter shoal]

probably to conserve computing power, transparency rendering is computationally expensive and it makes sense not to do it for idle entities.

[sharp wyvern]

Yeah I’m aware of the colour but I’m not aware of it being a reference to the Nightmare Spectres

[crystal hill]

Cant speak on that

[sharp wyvern]

I do know the Nightmare Imps were meant to be in PSX tho

And made it up until press releases for the game

[crimson pecan]

Finally bought the doom + doom2 pack on steam

I'm loooking foreward to compleate the first game and instal some wads

[crystal hill]

Good choice, have fun with those

[deft bloom]

Nice! for me trying to install wads, this may only be for me though it would only freeze the doom but not crash it. it wouldnt let me install any wads, but mayby thats just a computer issue with me.

[stiff basalt]

They look like this when they are idle
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/880612229504962610/1445182670819692584/IMG_6659.jpg?ex=692f6abe&is=692e193e&hm=98b1fc2429178836bf1bf695ef677de81ebdeafef2e6e57311b5e3566e750814&

[bitter shoal]

I assume it isn't actually a reference but they chose that color so that it would look better transparent and be harder to see among more backdrops maybe

[stiff basalt]

But the nightmare spectre looks more bluish

[bitter shoal]

I also recall nightmare imps from a flyer I saw supposed to be blue so my theory might be more sound than what is on doomwiki

actually, now that I look ati t more that isn't so much green as much as it is gray so yeah I htink they just grayscaled it but with a bit of green to be a little less boring so that it would blend with backgrounds better when translucent

spectres on PSX were still pink so they probably wanted to change that up a bit

[calm lichen]

I’m currently trying UZDoom and I have one big issue

The Chex curser is the spork and not the Chex symbol

Other than that its pretty good

[woven swallow]

https://youtu.be/KOrUjcgXlIo?si=5fNBHtF42oZQfT3W

[woven swallow]

Yo, more good news, I didn't even know this was possible but you can play Chex quest onto almost any doom sourceports, remember to use chex.deh

[calm lichen]

Yeah

I played on GZDoom

Chex is great though

[desert tinsel]

Playing Hordamex (horde monsters) cooperative on Odamex if anyone wants to join in odamex.net

[calm lichen]

After playing through Chex Quest and the first 2 hubs of Hexen on UZDoom I realized something

It isn’t dropping my inputs

[crystal hill]

isnt that normal?

[calm lichen]

I dunno if this was just a me issue but sometimes GZ wouldn’t recognize the fact that I pressed E and A

[calm lichen]

Yeah, GZ dropped my inputs a ton

It just feels so nice

[crystal hill]

interesting

the worst GZDoom ever does/did to me was switch my weapons randomly

[calm lichen]

Hm

It also feels a tad smoother

I ain’t hitting lag spikes or fps drops randomly

[bitter shoal]

dropped inputs = smoother feeling?

[calm lichen]

What?

[crystal hill]

Plat means UZDoom feels smoother

[bitter shoal]

I misread, I thought you were saying it IS dropping inputs, but now I see the isn't

[solemn socket]

GZDOOM felt so off on my eyes

[bitter shoal]

I was so confused

[calm lichen]

I play with brightmaps plus and a mod called more lighting which usually causes fps drops on GZ

[solemn socket]

i couldn't figure wheather it's mouse delay or something with the graphical settings

[calm lichen]

Do you have texture filtering on?

You could also be using a different render mode too

I use hardware accelerated

And turned off texture filtering

[bleak heart]

So i can just not give a care about the secrets and just focus on doing like the 9 level speedrun achievement

[crystal hill]

you can, but its gonna be rough

[bleak heart]

How so? i turned all the enemies off...

[crystal hill]

never mind then

[halcyon willow]

I doubt UZDoom vs GZDoom has anything to do with this

[calm lichen]

Well its only GZ that did it to me

So like I said it was probably just a me problem

Doom+Doom II didn’t do it, Crispy Doom didn’t do it, and UZ doesn’t do it

Its like how my copy of Cyberpunk is haunted

I always get really weird and sometimes eerie ass glitched

Or the classic “Every copy of [blank] is personalized” if you’re a knower

[halcyon willow]

blank = Ultra Violence edition of the esteemed Ribbiks' wad Magnolia

[calm lichen]

Name doesn’t ring bells

[halcyon willow]

Magnolia didn't ship with UV difficulty. But people who beat it on HMP (I think it had to be a UVmax) were made a custom version with a special UV difficulty made just for that person

Just a bit of classic Doom esoterica

[calm lichen]

Oh shit, thats actually kinda cool

[halcyon willow]

Very cool. Lots of effort, Ribbiks stopped after 10 or so?

But yeah, awesome idea

[calm lichen]

Are any of them public now?

Or does the wad have an official UV now?

[halcyon willow]

There are eight bonus maps that were given by Ribbiks to the first eight players who submitted HMP demos as per the instructions in the WAD's readme file. All of these occupy the MAP31 slot and are loaded as an extra WAD file alongside the main Magnolia WAD.

In the main wad

[calm lichen]

Hm

I may have to check the wad out later

[halcyon willow]

It's extremely difficult, but amazingly made

Beautiful mapset

[crystal hill]

You reckon Magnolia is harder than Sunlust?

[calm lichen]

I love me a difficult wad, especially if its beautiful

[halcyon willow]

100%

[crystal hill]

oh

[halcyon willow]

Sunlust is easy mode compared to Magnolia

[crystal hill]

okay, I'm passing on those then

[calm lichen]

What

[halcyon willow]

Part of it is that Ribbiks' later work gets more into pure combat puzzles

Less just running round shooting stuff

[calm lichen]

Ok I’m not putting it on my 2x enemy list then 😭

[halcyon willow]

Sunlust is Ribbiks' easiest work apart from Crumpets imo

[crystal hill]

I can honestly see that

a lot of the maps in here are borderline easy

[halcyon willow]

Stardate 20x6 is a bit harder? 20x7 is much harder and then Swim with the Whales, Magnolia, Frog and Toad series get ridiculous

[calm lichen]

Man, Sunlust brought me the Decino streams, gotta love it

[crystal hill]

Maps 21, 22 and 23 especially for being so late in the wad

[crystal hill]

Surely Swim with the Whales isnt as hard?

[calm lichen]

Stardate is one I played

[crystal hill]

Maps 1, 2 and 31 are all doable by normal people. It's just 3 that's a ball buster

[halcyon willow]

Sunlust does have some pretty high difficulty spikes (hello Go Fuck Yourself), but overall it's definitely on the easier side of hard wads these days

[calm lichen]

Man now I’m super excited to play Magnolia

[halcyon willow]

To be fair, I lean more into pure slaughter in terms of the hard mapset I enjoy

Sunder is peak

Nirvana I find strikes a good balance between Ribbiks' style mapsets and Sunder. Fractured Worlds is extremely good

[crystal hill]

anything harder than Sunlust I'm going to play on HMP or just toss entirely

[halcyon willow]

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/125253-fractured-worlds-final-releaseidgames/

highly recommend

[calm lichen]

I enjoyed that one

I dunno how I missed Magnolia

Musta been something I planned to play but got burnt out before doing it

[halcyon willow]

Yeah Magnolia was a cacoward winner so it wasn't like some under the radar release

But it is hard to keep track of everything these days

So many good wads

[crystal hill]

to be fair a lot of cacoward winners disappear into history

[calm lichen]

I have like 20 wads sat in a folder called “Post burnout”

[halcyon willow]

lol

[crystal hill]

Unholy Realms, Mayan Mishap, IC2005

[calm lichen]

Yep, its in the folder

Along with Myhouse and 10x10

[crystal hill]

are you currently burnt out on doom?

[calm lichen]

I’ve been inching back in

If you have recommendations you can throw em my way

I basically play whatever wads I find, from peak to shitposts

[crystal hill]

I have a whole list of my favourite wads I whip out like it's a gun in the US

[calm lichen]

I’d be happy to see it

[crystal hill]

Going Down

Plutonia 2
Speed of Doom
ZDoom Community Map Project "Take 2"
Alien Vendetta

Community Chest 4
Plutonia
Megaman 8-Bit Deathmatch
Pirate Doom
Vanguard
Lunatic
Action Doom 2
Chord 3
Hellbound
Epic 2
Mayan Mishap
IC2005
Cyberdreams
Whispers of Satan
Legacy of Suffering
The Eye
Frozen Time
Khorus' Speedy Shit
Reconstruction / Decomposition
Dystopia 3
UAC Ultra

also the Golden Souls duology if you like Marioesque platforming in your Doom

[calm lichen]

Oh wow, I haven’t played like 7 of those

[crystal hill]

which ones?

[calm lichen]

Whisper Of Satan, UAC Ultra, Reconstruction, IC2005, Lunatic, Megaman, and The Eye

[crystal hill]

the higher up on the list it is, the more recommended it is

[crystal hill]

let me jazz those up for ya

[calm lichen]

Though I have seen some of UAC Ultra

[crystal hill]

Whispers of Satan - maybe my pick for an undemanding, consistently good wad. Nothing too hard, its not stunning or revolutionary. It's just good, solid fun. It goes from pretty okay to pretty good from beginning to end.

UAC Ultra - it's at the bottom of the list for a reason, lol. Sometimes I wonder if it should be on there at all. The fights are decent, with Skagway in particular being a highlight. It's short, so its worth a go.

Reconstruction - a contender for the best atmosphere in Doom. The music, the environment, oooh, so good. The fights are passable, but a weak point of the wad. It's mainly for immersion.

IC2005 - it's a single level, doesn't look too crazy impressive. So why is it on here? It's got maybe the best weapon progression in a level I've seen. You're forced to slum it with the pistol for a bit, juuuuuuust long enough to make you appreciate it and want a new weapon, and bam, there it is. Repeat for the whole level. It has immaculate pacing as far as that is concerned.

Lunatic - if you've ever played Valiant's space episode, this is a beta verison of it. Still great fun, because Skillsaw made it. Fights are fast and fun, it's just a real good time.

Mega Man - the most unique entry on this list. It's an online deathmatch game with a single player. It's based on Mega Man, so your mileage may vary on how you like it. I liked how hectic the gameplay is, trying desperately to grab one of the OP weapons to wreak havoc. Does get a lil samey after a while, so dont marathon the singleplayer.

The Eye - debut effort from the one, the only, Moudly. Not as zany or tight as his future works, it's still an excellent start to his career, very detailed, above average fights and not too rough

[calm lichen]

I’ll definitely be giving these a try in the future

I’m gonna hold playing Doom big time again till after I beat my new games I bought

[crystal hill]

I love playing Doom maps that don't hate me

anyways, back to playing Sunlust on UV

[calm lichen]

Good luck

[crystal hill]

I'm going to play Golden Souls 1 after I beat/quit it, so I have that to look forward to

[calm lichen]

“Beat/quit it” 😭 thats so fucking real

[crystal hill]

I'm not expecting to beat Map 30 saveless after how I've played thus far

[calm lichen]

YOURE DOING SAVELESS??

[crystal hill]

yeah

too easy otherwise

[calm lichen]

Goddamn, I gave my self 1 save per map

I’d say whenever I thought I was halfway through the map which didn’t go so well

[crystal hill]

I have done two maps with one save each, to be completely honest - Map 32, which sucks and I have no shame about that, and Map 20, which I could do saveless with enough patience. I could/should come back to it

[crystal hill]

I do also use guides throughout this

[calm lichen]

Fair enough

[crystal hill]

i.e I watch videos to show me what to do/how to play, because fuck spending two days trying to come up with a strategy for each map

[calm lichen]

I played blind my first time and raw dogged my other runs

I played it like 4 times total each under different conditions

[crystal hill]

I think I played Sunlust blind my first time, for the most part. Got to Map 18

[calm lichen]

1st was blind on UV, 2nd was with smoothdoom (yes this changes things), 3rd was with Doom Eternal weapons, and my 4th run was another regular run on UV

This was around the time I burned out but I had 1 more run planned

I was gonna play with a weapon set called Hellcrusher which just makes you overpowered

It would basically be a “Fuck you, I conquered you” finale run

[stiff basalt]

Kar En Tuk never released

[crystal hill]

might be cathartic afterward

plug in russian overkill and go to town on this fucker

[calm lichen]

Oh yeah, I love doing op runs of hard maps

[crystal hill]

I don't usually like changing the rules of the game like that, but this is Sunlust, it deserves it

[calm lichen]

Fair, vanilla Doom is great

But ya just can’t find games that do what Doom modded does

[crystal hill]

I suppose so. But those things generally aren't what I want

if I have a massive departure in the gameplay, I want that to be coupled with tailor made maps

[calm lichen]

Yeah I get that, I don’t played modded often myself but I love it

[calm lichen]

Try Final Doomer Plus with the maps the weapons are made for

They are weapons for maps like TNT and Plutonia, Ancient Aliens and Vendetta, and a few more maps

[crystal hill]

hm

[calm lichen]

Its like my favorite weapon wad

[crystal hill]

I appreciate giving hellbound some love

[calm lichen]

Oh yeah, Hellbound has weapons for it I think

[crystal hill]

but this still isn't really my thing. I like those mapsets for what they offer me, not for how weapon mods could change them

[calm lichen]

Fair I guess

[crystal hill]

If I ever clear the cacoward winners lists (2030 at earliest lol), maybe

[calm lichen]

I won’t understand it but I don’t really need to. I’mma keep doin’ what I do

[crystal hill]

everyone enjoys doom differently

[calm lichen]

I love Doom for its nearly endless possibilities

[crystal hill]

I personally like seeing what mappers can do with the great potential that lays within Doom 1 and 2 at base

[calm lichen]

Maps, weapons, monsters, and all the modded stuff and wads

[crystal hill]

Going Down, minus some boom chicanery, is just Doom but honed into a masterpiece

[calm lichen]

I like seeing how much I can push Doom and wads

I pretty much made Plutonia as hard as I could

[crystal hill]

thats what Plutonia 2 is for

[calm lichen]

Without just flat out changing the monster count or damage

[calm lichen]

Yeah, I pushed that one too

[crystal hill]

this would make more sense to me for a game with fewer custom maps

gotta get the most out of what you do have

[calm lichen]

I’m a big fan of challenge runs in games so this all comes to me naturally

If I like something a lot I’ll play it a few times in a small period of time

Given its not super fucking hard

[crystal hill]

I'm the opposite

Even with things I love, I rarely replay them immediately after playing

I love Going Down, now more than ever, but the thought of a replay right now has me mixed

there's always something else, something new, I could be playing

[calm lichen]

Ok lemme clarify something real quick since love was too broad a word for me to use there properly

[bitter shoal]

I'm the same, mods and stuff would be for stuff I want to play again but with a new twist but I want to move onto new stuff more and see what the wad creator wants for me.

[calm lichen]

I replay stuff I think is peak

Like I love Sunlust but I played it over a months time