classic-doom

[cinder sapphire]

lol I've never heard that but that's pretty funny and probably accurate

Brutal Doom (a gameplay mod) might be kinda close to it as well. it has a fatality system (glory kill?) that Doom 2016 seemed to take inspiration from.

[static jasper]

I also heard about it

[bitter shoal]

I forgot to talk about this earlier because I only took a screenshot to talk about it later and forgot, but there was a part in PRCP2's I think it was Map 02 that had a red key on a wooden stake and there was a nearby chainsaw. I don't know why I thought the puzzle would be this but I attempted to hit the wooden pole to see if it might be a shootable linedef to lower it instantly because it would have been cool if the chainsaw was actually a hint to cut down the wood.

Then again that would have been obtuse

[static jasper]

Pretty much

[bitter shoal]

now I'm playing Plutonia 4 on my laptop. I like how map 5 is just Map 33 of plutonia 2, and is making fun of its brown water theme

and WOW, what a deep cut. Map 6 has music from that Hugo House of horrors FPS

[cinder sapphire]

would I still appreciate Plutonia 4 if I never play 3?

[crystal hill]

neither exist except as jokewads

[bitter shoal]

nobody should play 3 until Joshy claims it as his own

and 4 is a joke wad making fun of what is the current 3

[crystal hill]

hopefully before doom's 40th

[cinder sapphire]

that's why I asked if I would appreciate it more if I haven't played 3

cuz idk maybe I wont get the jokes

[bitter shoal]

I don't think it actually references 3 directly, so far a lot of the maps are mostly jokes on the player more than anything

like there is a map full of vines as walls as a maze

[cinder sapphire]

ok gotcha

[bitter shoal]

and a map that is made entirely of crushers

obviously I'm not going to recommend this wad since it's, well, a joke wad. I am currently playing through the actual better sequels though

[full shoal]

Finished Plutonia yesterday. It grew on me. The beginning felt average but it gets better for sure. Will check Plut2 out for sure

[cinder sapphire]

^remember there is also Plutonia: Revisited Community Project

[little oar]

Plutonia RULES and is even better on replays when you have a better idea of all the traps

[crystal hill]

Plut 2 is much harder than PRCP, but it's also much better

[bitter shoal]

PRCP is very much a mixed bag, I talked a lot about it. I just started PRCP2 and having a much better time with its first few levels so hopefully the quality keeps up

and yes Plutonia 2 is amazing

[cinder sapphire]

I put community project before P2 on my playlist cuz I wanted to end with P2.

[crystal hill]

some PRCP maps are of the quality of P1 and 2, but others are just pain

like the Xaser maps or the redo of Ghost Town

[cinder sapphire]

playin doom, later peeps

[bitter shoal]

honestly I don't know if I can recommend that since some PRCP maps copy Plutonia 1's too closely and it might be fatiguing to not have enough of a breather between playing similar maps

that is one of my biggest complaints about PRCP

it doesn't help that one of the Plutonia 1 maps a map is based on is O of Destruction again. I love that map so much but I already played it in DOOM 2, Plutonia, and Amalgoom and PRCP's is the worst of the bunch.

[sharp wyvern]

Did you play the secret levels?

[full shoal]

Not yet! I haven't played any secret levels that I haven't found (and I have only found like 2 in whole Doom + Doom 2). But I will all the secret levels together from the collection

So is PRCP like remakes of the maps or new maps?

[bitter shoal]

both, it is really inconsistent about what it is. Plutonia 2 is entirely new though but it still follows the jungle theming Plutonia had

[full shoal]

Hmm, maybe I'll skip to Plut2 then

[crystal hill]

I would almost recommend PRCP as training

Unless you're very confident in your skills

[bitter shoal]

oh maybe

I didn't consider that

[crystal hill]

Plut 2 was one of my first wads ever, if not the first

Suffice to say, it was a trial by fire that I did not pass in any way, lol

[bitter shoal]

I personally think Scythe is a good training wad

[crystal hill]

That's a very good choice

Just dont force yourself through the last 5 maps or so

Least not as a first timer

[cinder sapphire]

I'll keep that in mind, although that does make sense since it has "revisited" in the title. I'll see when I get there. It will be a very long time until that happens, since I've still got many other wads to play before those!

[full shoal]

Plutonia was hard but I feel like LoR is so much harder. And I think giving you less ammo is the hardest difficulty modifier for me :D Plutonia doesn't really have that but for example Alien Vendetta does and it's killing me.

[sharp wyvern]

I feel like LoR’s difficulty peaks at E1M6 and E2M1 and the rest is more manageable than Plutonia

Although I guess it depends on how often you’re saving

[bitter shoal]

the funny thing about this joke wad is that the maps aren't even that bad. I think the joke of this map I just played is that it is a bad map that transforms into kind of a scary slaughtermap.

[full shoal]

I play without saving

LoR's long levels are pain because of that :D

[sharp wyvern]

Yeah I get that lol they’re all marathons really

I love E1M5 for that tho. Feels like I’m stealthing my way through a giant base tbh

[stiff basalt]

Episode 1 difficulty aint that bad

Except the coiled city

[full shoal]

E1M2 and Coiled City took the longest for sure.

Now I can't seem to tackle E2M1. Only tried it few times so far

[sharp wyvern]

E2M1 is pretty hard yeah

You gotta go for melee at the start

[crystal hill]

Is this plutonia 4? Sounds like glowing praise to me

Having a haha jokey funny map turn into something that has merit all on its own, jokes aside

[bitter shoal]

Admittedly watching another player play it, if you do it right then the encounter is pretty simplified

and the expectations for these maps are pretty low so even though they aren't terrible they aren't like amazing either

with that said I think I might just watch a playthrough of it from here on out instead

[crystal hill]

I should put it on my to play list

It keeps expanding and expanding and it's just not getting cleared, lol

[red harbor]

idk why people go so over the top for horror wads when plutonia map11 does just as well with none of the typical "horror" elements

[crystal hill]

ehhh

Get good enough at the game, and 11 archviles is a welcome break, not scary

other maps do the horror atmosphere and gameplay better

[red harbor]

true, its one of the easier maps in plutonia, even when pistol starting since they give you a super shotgun and more than enough ammo

but you have to admit on a first playthrough its definitely something that wont be forgotten anytime soon

[crystal hill]

but that's just the thing - first playthrough

if you're a veteran doomhead, you're gonna want something new after a while

[worldly hinge]

I LOVE THE ARCH VILE

IT IS THE MOST FAIR AND BALANCED ENEMY IN DOOM

AHHHHHH

[full shoal]

Ok

[hollow tree]

I like cacodemons personally

[red harbor]

It really depends on how they're used. An good example of an Archvile is MAP09 in NRFTL, while a bad example is MAP03 in TNT Evilution.

[bitter shoal]

isn't TNT a bad example of a lot of things

[red harbor]

Exactly. Its the usual go-to for bad examples.

[bitter shoal]

this but unironically

[red harbor]

Yeah. Like I said it depends on how its used.

[sharp wyvern]

lmfao

[crystal hill]

Design wise, I think the arch vile is excellent

It lets you know in advance when its gonna attack, giving you time to seek cover. Also, it doesnt have the insane damage range enemies like revenants do

It cant attack too fast, and its unique infight mechanics give you yet another way to fight back against them. They are unironically my favourite enemy in doom

[bitter shoal]

I like how decino kept highlighting how they are actually much easier on fast monsters

since it doesn't affect their ability to damage you but they are also forced to attack which makes them stand still

[crystal hill]

And makes them far more predictable

You know full well they're going to attack you as soon as they see you, so you can work around that

[exotic ledge]

Oh yeah E2M1 is brutal as hell lol

TNT Devilution just keeps getting harder and harder man, Map20 is giving me hell

Crazy slaughter map ending with about 30 archs spawning in

[bitter shoal]

whew

[exotic ledge]

https://youtu.be/sMBjJeGADk4?si=8gKepsRql6NiuVAv&t=931

The previous map to this had just over 1000 enemies and 30 secrets lolol

[bitter shoal]

ah the old "here is an invuln, hope you kill the archies in time" encounter

as I say that the DOOM Speed Demos stream is playing a map trying to kill hundreds of archviles that can revive each other in a single room

[exotic ledge]

I think I may have figured out a way to deal with the end section, but it involves leaving both rad suits from earlier in the lv

Crazy map, I've spent half of last night and all of today practising and working out how to deal with each section

Finally ready to play for real, but I'm exhausted now haha

[bitter shoal]

sounds like TNT Devilution is actually crazy then

I wonder how crazy Plutonia Revisited 2 will get.

If at all, but the first maps were so promising

[median trellis]

just played comatose, what a terrifying map

[exotic ledge]

It's been kinda mixed up until now, weird difficulty curve, but it seems as though all the following maps are going to be nutty

[cursive swallow]

Doom 1 n 2 is a masterpiece

And a gift from john romero

[bitter shoal]

Plutonia 4 (which is a joke wad, skip this mapset) maps have been less gimmicky after map 4 and they've mostly just been more jokes about the visual themes of the maps and the gameplay has been average at best (which is why I was surprised the maps weren't as terrible as they could be) but there is one joke that aged way differently than they had intended ||map 11 is MYHOUSE.WAD lol||

[bitter shoal]

oh okay map 12 is a gimmick map cool

lmao @ map 13

[crystal hill]

Lainos has a gift for making maps with an excellent atmosphere. All of his work comes reccomended

[static jasper]

This game platinum is so easy

You can literally play the whole thing with cheats activated and do it without breaking a sweat

I love it.

[full shoal]

Why would you?

[crystal hill]

????

Yeah, of course the game will be easy if you make yourself invincible

[barren matrix]

[crystal hill]

map 18 from resurgence is real good, but also a real bitch

lotta open areas you need to be careful in to not get sniped by something or another

[static jasper]

of course, what I meant is you can literally platinum the game while being invincible, they let you do that

[static jasper]

Why not

[crystal hill]

ahhh. That's kind of bullshit

if all you want is that platinum trophy, then I guess go for it that way

but if you want fun, ehhhh

[static jasper]

It's there

That's what we can say about it 😂

[bitter shoal]

don't they make you do nightmare for platinum, I say being able to cheat is fair

[crystal hill]

fuck nightmare, all my homies hate nightmare

I don't like being forced to play like a speedrunner to get through the levels, frankly

[static jasper]

Ugh let me check

Oh yeah there's 1 trophy about it

I already have it and yeah I've done it legit on the first level of doom 1

Didn't need to cheat for that

[crystal hill]

is it "beat any level on nightmare"?

[static jasper]

Yeah you only need to beat 1

[crystal hill]

There's levels in the game that are unironically easier on Nightmare than Ultra Violence

[static jasper]

Then there's this 1 that says "Beat 8 levels in ultra-violence in succession breaking the record"

That sounds bad but with cheats is easy asf

Nobody can brag about this 1 plat ngl

[crystal hill]

that doesn't seem hard if you single segment it

might need to plan a little bit, but it seems fine enough

[static jasper]

the problem is that you have to do it in succession

8 levels like that

Basically a full chapter of doom 1

[crystal hill]

No problem

E1 is pretty easy, and I can pistol start it in my sleep

so single segmenting it quick should be managable

[static jasper]

Try

[crystal hill]

eh, why not

[static jasper]

Lmk when you're done

Also remember you gotta finish the levels under the record time @crystal hill

[crystal hill]

yeah, I know

[static jasper]

It's usually like what 2 minutes or whatever

[crystal hill]

I'm gonna go in blind

no practise run, no looking at the record tiem, etc

[static jasper]

I feel like if you know what you're doing and after a bit of practice you can manage to get this legit

[crystal hill]

oh, I can do this, it;s just a matter of how much practise/prep I need

[static jasper]

But as one dev said once "if players get the chance to do something the easy way, they are always gonna choose the easy way"

I bet at least 90% of players who got the plat didn't do it legit

[crystal hill]

oh wow, I beat E1M1 in 33 seconds, so I already failed, lol

[static jasper]

💔✌️

At least you get to listen to kickass music on repeat

[crystal hill]

Attempt 2, died in command centre while trying to figure out where to go

This could take longer than expected, but should still be fine

[static jasper]

👍

[crystal hill]

Try 3 - I barely survived phobos lab, but I went over the timer

I need to try and ration out my chaingun ammo better, the shotgun doesnt really cut it for speed most of the time

[full shoal]

LoR E2M1 done and that had to be most intense M1 ever

also E2M2 music is sick

[crystal hill]

Trys 4 and 5 - died on maps 3 and 5 respectively. I'm not good at managing health and time

Try 6 - died in central processing. I got totally lost so the run would've failed anyway

Try 7 - same as above though I got further in

[crystal hill]

Try 8 and 9 - Central Processing is a bitch

[full shoal]

Also started Scythe today and these first missions are excellent! It's great to see well made maps under 2 min and only handful of enemies

[bitter shoal]

I love Scythe so much

[crystal hill]

It's hard to love scythe when so many of it's maps are so... nothing

[woven swallow]

prepare for maps beyond 20

[crystal hill]

I give up, this is too hard and time consuming to do

humble pie does not taste so good

[static jasper]

Told you lol

Better use them cheats

[crystal hill]

Some other time

I've beaten harder challenges than this. I pistol started all of Plutonia 2 before

[bitter shoal]

I've mostly been cheating on Plutonia 4 since it is a joke wad lol

[static jasper]

Is plutonia bad?

[bitter shoal]

no

Plutonia is great

and Plutonia 2 is even better

[static jasper]

You just said it's a joke

[crystal hill]

Plutonia 4

[bitter shoal]

do you not see the 4 in my message

[static jasper]

Yes I do see it

[bitter shoal]

some random doofus made a Plutonia 3 that was terrible so the community made 4 as a joke wad

I don't know how you get "plutonia 1 or 2 is bad" from that

[crystal hill]

Plutonia wads arent made by the same people

[bitter shoal]

I might stop playing Plutonia 4 because all it's doing is confusing people

and I would recommend it

[static jasper]

It was obvious to understand at first glance I was referring to plutonia 4, because it was asked right after you said plutonia 4 was a joke

Look man just leave it

[crystal hill]

At least it's living up to the family name and causing people anger

[static jasper]

Nah I was just asking because I still have yet to play plutonia lolz

So I don't waste my time with trash

[bitter shoal]

Plutonina 1 is the best of the original IWADS, Plutonia 2 is absolute cinema

[crystal hill]

Plutonia 1 is very good, the best of the classic Doom games
Plutonia 2 is excellent, one of my favourite vanilla megawads period
PRCP is a mixed bag, some great, some crap
Haven't played the others but 3 and 4 are just jokes

[bitter shoal]

I started PRCP 2 and its first few maps are incredibly strong, looking foward to playing more of it

[crystal hill]

that's why you should stay away from TNT Evilution

[full shoal]

Evilution is enjoyable

[crystal hill]

I lied, never surrender!

it took way, way too long, but at least that's done now. I can't imagine any of the other achievements will be nearly this hard

[exotic ledge]

I tried recently to get the Steam trophy for beating 8 consective levels in under par time without dying, it's too hard for me, I am a speedrunner (I run Goldeneye), but Doom is too hectic for me to really enjoy

I got to M7 once, then after that I got worse and was struggling to get past M3 lolol

[crystal hill]

I feel ya. After playing the same stuff over and over, I get worse at the game, whatever I'm playing

[exotic ledge]

The only way to do it I feel is to actually adopt some of the speedrunning strats, instead of just going in blind

actually practise each lv

[crystal hill]

That's essentially what I did, forced to play the levels again and again

I also realised I had some time to spare in some levels, so I used it to find secrets, get health, and play a little more carefully

interesting. More people on steam beat legacy of rust than plutonia

[full shoal]

it's shorter and since it's the new one that came with the achievements it's easy to see why

[median trellis]

scythe 2 is goated

[bitter shoal]

after I play Plutonia Revisited 2 I am likely going to play Scythe 2

[crystal hill]

My hottest Doom take might be that Erik Alm is seriously overrated

I don't love any of his wads, or even maps. I'm sure they had a great impact on the mapping scene back in the day, but they just dont click with me like they do with 99% of other people

[median trellis]

he was pretty good but not the best

skillsaw is the best mapper of all time imo

[crystal hill]

Mouldy has my vote

I just wish he made more stuff

[median trellis]

love his work

[crystal hill]

no other mapper combines great architecture, a knack for comedy, catchy music and most importantly, excellent fights, like he does

[mortal silo]

valiant is probably the best thing ive ever played.
i have a few criticisms. the bombers are under utilized, and the random arachno-spawn isnt significant.
but the pacing is really really good and the gameplay is pop-corn-tastic

for a lot of doom authors i typically enjoy one of their big releases and dont much care for the rest
scythe 2, valiant, eviternity 2, ultimate doom 😅

[woven swallow]

If you liked valiant, you will definitely like heartland

[mortal silo]

hearltand is very very cool

[bitter shoal]

internet went down for an hour so I took the time to play more PRCP2, Map 05 was also pretty good, easy-ish until it wanted to punch me in the face. Had a really intricate layout too so I got lost a couple of times but overall PRCP2 is 5 for 5 in mapquality which I couldn't say about PRCP1 after just map 2

[mortal silo]

its also only like 6 maps tho

[crystal hill]

I wish heartland wasn't exclusive to one specific engine

[mortal silo]

with gzdoom dead maybe we will all be playing Eternity i mean Citadel engine

[crystal hill]

I doubt that

uzdoom is already kind of filling the void

[mortal silo]

woul be great if they had auto run and controller support

hard to play a doom port without auto run, or at least let me inverse run/walk

[red harbor]

nah we're all playing Risen3D, trust me bro

jokes aside i wouldnt wish playing with that source port upon my worst enemies

[crystal hill]

I still haven't ceremonially burned my copy of GZDoom from my hard drive, I should get round to that

[red harbor]

id rather make them pistol start E4M2 500 times in a row

[red harbor]

on Nightmare, of course

[red harbor]

waiting for uzdoom to have a public release before i publically execute my copy of gzdoom

[full shoal]

This is what made me a doom fan

Perfect Hatred

[crystal hill]

Even the beta one out now is decent. But not better than what I have on GZDoom, I think

[bitter shoal]

Perfect Hatred my beloved ||I'd probably hate the Barons on it nowadays||

[crystal hill]

I do

I prefer Hell Keep as a map

[bitter shoal]

anyway Diego Villarroel is now the mapper that I most respect out of anyone just because Map 06 of PRCP 2 was completely original but somehow also the most stereotypical Plutonia map you can imagine and this is a quality I idolize

[crystal hill]

one map made you have this view?

[bitter shoal]

I'm mostly joking but yes

6 for 6 so far, waiting for a map to break this streak

so far every map has been by a different author and other than some differences in philosophy for enemy placement here and there the quality has been pretty consistent

[crystal hill]

meanwhile I've been stuck on the same map in resurgence for days now

hate it when this happens, I get real demoralised and feel like I can't make progress

[bitter shoal]

Map 06 is basically the difference between one of PRCP1's "this is based on a Plutonia map" and "THIS IS PLUTONIA, BABY!"

[exotic ledge]

Yeah I didn't care too much for actually going fast, so long as it was under par time I was good. The M4 'jump' to get the Yellow Key is surprsingly easy

[crystal hill]

I didn't do that, didn't figure I needed to. M4 was an easy enough level still for me to not have to do that

[exotic ledge]

Well, I finally beat Map 20 on Devilution, took a day and a half of practising and routing, then three actual attempts. IGT was just over an hour, and it was ridiculously hairy at the end, got down to 14% before desperately grabbing the invuln (all the archies spawned at once instead of being staggered lolol)

Following map has 96 enemies and I beat it in 2 attempts lol

Very weird difficulty arch, but thinking on it Map 10 gave me a hard time of it too, so perhaps every 10 maps is an end-of-episode map

[bitter shoal]

I'm assuming having a breather after a gargantuan behemoth is an accident because of how community projects work >_>

[exotic ledge]

I feel as though I might go back to Okuplok soon, I have unfinished business there

[exotic ledge]

Yeah, makes sense tbh. I'm not complaining haha, the last three maps I've had to make practise saves, I didn't have to do that at all on Plutonis 2 (although I did kinda cheat by having a Decino vid to hand on the harder maps for P2, the only decent Devilution YT vid is a speedrun, which doesn't help me with strats lol)

[crystal hill]

I've really come to appreciate breather maps after hulking behemoths in megawads

I really hope Joshy feels the same, I don't want two super hard maps kicking my ass back to back

[barren matrix]

[bitter shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-doom-slayer-cacodemon-demon-cute-gif-7070685866677885551

[sharp wyvern]

The original official one is better than Doom 2

[sharp wyvern]

It really does a great job of making Doomguy actually have to recover from being ambushed at least

[vestal island]

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/155815-toms-halls-release-thread/
Just in case anyone's in mood for some alpha/beta DOOM tribute, here's a community project I'm part of. Having been in the works for about 2 years, a RC1 release just dropped a while ago.

[sharp wyvern]

Oh sweet

[crystal hill]

what do you guys think about quitting wads in the last 5 or so maps, if they really arent up to snuff?

[cinder sapphire]

Im not much of a completionist. if it's not fun, I probably wont finish. too many wads to play and not enough time.

[crystal hill]

that's my philosophy. I've been a lot more easy going with quitting wads recently, due to the sheer volume I have to play

[cinder sapphire]

ok with all this talk about plutonia wads, what's the veredict on the plutonia tribute quilt?

[median trellis]

what do you guys think is the best master level

[bitter shoal]

I didn't know this was a thing, though the stipulation that the quilt sections have to recreate iconic Plutonia sections give me pause because relying on recreating Plutonia 1 was what held back the first Revisited project IMO

since the levels are in obvious constraints then it will probably be still a new experience though

[bitter shoal]

TIL there was another MMO named Titan and it was one for the Halo Franchise with Sandy Petersen behind it. He just claimed Don Mattrick cancelled it to get a quick paycheck.

[static jasper]

Bro black tower is such a mess

30 minutes to complete it ain't no fucking way

[median trellis]

such a cool concept for a level however

[static jasper]

It was a cool concept I liked how it looked but It was a pot of mess all put together

[static jasper]

@crystal hill I just got the platinum

[crystal hill]

Congrats

The achievements I have left are "beat X game", which will take a while and I'm not really in the mood for that now

[full shoal]

I would still go with Black Tower. Easily the most memorable.

[twilit rock]

any of dr sleep's levels

[static jasper]

There's no chat for doom 64 so I guess I'll stick here

[bitter shoal]

I think people usually use this chat for 64

[static jasper]

Alright then

It pretty much looks like the same thing as 1 and 2

I'm really curious about 3 tho, can't wait to reach there

[wind cradle]

i wouldn't say look like, moreso the gameplay is like doom 1 and 2

the graphics and mapping has many more quirks

sector lighting, room over room

more details and stuff basically

[twilit rock]

i think doom 64 counts as classic doom

tenously

[bitter shoal]

it is the same engine as the playstation port but further upgraded

[twilit rock]

yeah psx doom/psx final/doom 64 definitely counts as a weird little sub-trilogy

the unified soundtrack and engine/colored lighting helps to tie it together

i associate hodges style more with psx doom than doom 64 simply because i've played more of it

[static jasper]

This is a weird one

I'm not saying it's bad, just weird

[wind cradle]

yeah the demon designs are very alien like

[static jasper]

Where the hell is the music

I'm at level 2 and still not music 💀

[wind cradle]

the music is supposed to be atmospheric

because it sets at a darker setting

[bitter shoal]

They did this for Playstation DOOM crazily enough, both the music and the lighting

[wind cradle]

idc what people say, i like the music in doom 64, it fits very well for its art style

[static jasper]

This stuff was supposed to run on the n64

it can be forgiven ig

[wind cradle]

yeah, but there was some tweaks and stuff to make it pc compatible such as higher resolution and keyboard and mouse controls

which i fw alot

[whole crown]

Is Saturn X episode 1 and 2 regarded as difficult or is it just management of resources only?

[sharp wyvern]

it used to have its own channel but it got removed :(

[sharp wyvern]

turn your vol up it has ambient music that kicks in sometimes

[sharp wyvern]

that first level theme 👼

[cinder sapphire]

you're already playing 64?

[cinder sapphire]

agreed. it's more on the horror side than the previous games so it works. I usually play without music on all wads to get that feeling as much as possible.

[karmic estuary]

It is to me

[static jasper]

Yeah I've played everything of the first two dooms and got the platinum

Now I'm on 64 and man I ain't gonna lie this game is kinda cheeks

I don't feel like I'll be replaying this when I'm done with it

[bitter shoal]

I only played part of Ep. 2 years ago (I think it might've been unfinished back then) and I recall it having a lot of big encounters and on occasion a start where you do need to rush to get weapons if you are pistol starting.

[crystal hill]

That was my conclusion when I beat it. Only I made the mistake of playing it pistol start so I couldnt get one of the achievements, so I had to replay it later

When I'm replaying all the classic dooms, I think I'll skip that one

[cinder sapphire]

you played TNT and Plutonias as well? it sounds like you are zooming through those

[static jasper]

I played all of them but only the boss fights cause that's what the trophies asked for, the classic dooms are pretty much always the same thing every level whatsoever, and I played them for 30 hours I think I saw enough anyways

It's still games of 90s they get boring at some point

The ones I'll be investing more time is the new trilogy cause it's obvious they're better games

[static jasper]

exactly, if I'll ever feel like playing classic doom I'll just play 1 or 2!

[twilit rock]

noo its good

not like a masterpiece but its good

[stiff basalt]

Ngl I prefer doom 64 over ultimate doom and doom 2

[static jasper]

If you like it it's fine

I'm speaking as of me tbh

If this was someone's first doom game ever I get the nostalgia thing about it

I like playing stuff before judging

[cinder sapphire]

oh dang, I hope you don't miss out on the gameplay mods and different ways to play the thousands of custom wads, but if it's not your thing, then fair enough. but there is Brutal Doom, Project Brutality, Hideous Destructor, Live Through Doom (aka Lit Doom) and Lost in Darkness to name some.

[static jasper]

I played some of the community mods and some of them were kinda funny ngl but It ends there 😂

I don't you guys to think wrong about what I'm saying, 1 and 2 are really cool games for their age I'm just saying there's way better doom games to play these days

[cinder sapphire]

do you mean wads or what? cuz I'm not talking about those. I mean gameplay mods.

[static jasper]

Not those 1

[twilit rock]

wrong channel lol

[stiff basalt]

Then stick to nudoom lmao

[static jasper]

Nah cause I'm playing the old ones that's why I'm here lmao

I wouldn't be here otherwise

[cinder sapphire]

I dont think community mods are a thing. maybe you are thinking of community wads? mods are not wads. the mods I mean are the ones that change the gameplay, not the community made mapsets.

[twilit rock]

just to let you know coming in here and saying how the zenimax games are clearly better games and stuff will probably not make you a lot of friends in this channel

[static jasper]

Yeah wads I tend to confuse stuff

[twilit rock]

not saying you can't have an opinion just that there's better ways of phrasing it

[static jasper]

Well I couldn't phrase what I said any better

[cinder sapphire]

oh yeah that's cool, not the wads tho 🙂 mods change the game completely so if you're bored of the classic way, you can try those is what I mean. only if you want to of course. but I dont play it the classic way either. I use all kinds of mods

[crystal hill]

See, I feel like there is a niche that D64 fills that the other classics do not. Its just that I dont care for that niche much at all

[static jasper]

Which wads you think are the best ones?

[stiff basalt]

Honestly I dunno why nightdive remaster lets you cheat the achievements like that

[twilit rock]

why do you think lol

[static jasper]

Cause low skill players or perhaps they didn't think about it at all

[stiff basalt]

The unity port wasnt like that though

[cinder sapphire]

wads or mods. I dont have any fav wads atm, those are custom maps. but mods are the gameplay changers.

[crystal hill]

Funny thing, if we arent counting wads, I think
2016 and Eternal do blow the classics out of the water

[twilit rock]

i mean that's your opinion you're free to hold it

[crystal hill]

But community wads, with their number and quality, more than tip the scales back in D2's favour

[crystal hill]

Thank you, I was worried it was illegal to have one

[twilit rock]

i am of the opinion that not many if any fanmade wads touch the feeling that playing vanilla doom and doom 2 give me but that isn't a mark on their quality more just a thing of nostalgia

[static jasper]

I feel like if someone's ain't free to express what they think about a game without shitting on it, there shouldn't be problems about it

If someone in here kicked in and said yeah these games are cheeks cause I said so then it would be uncool

[twilit rock]

It was a nice way of saying i disagree with you

[crystal hill]

I have some nostalgia toward both, but it's been eroded over the years of playing them

[crystal hill]

Yeah, I'm aware

[static jasper]

Having opinions is against the LAW!

You wouldn't steal an opinion

You wouldn't steal a movie

[twilit rock]

doom is one of those games that can't really get old to me or at least it hasnt yet

[crystal hill]

What I do have extreme nostalgia for is Golden Souls 1

The sequel is way better, but I have a much greater emotional attachment to 1

[static jasper]

Did you play these games back in the 90s?

[stiff basalt]

Did you?

[static jasper]

No I'm pretty new

[crystal hill]

Its the community made levels that make it so for me. If all I had to play were the official classic wads, I would have gotten bored many many years ago

[twilit rock]

No i wasn't alive

[static jasper]

Doesn't every game work like that anyways

[stiff basalt]

The funny thing is its going to be the same with the new games

[crystal hill]

Its complicated. Some games are far more replayable than others

Take any open world game and compare it to a level based single player game that takes 10 hours to beat

Some games have more mods than others too

[bitter shoal]

I've never been a real fan of anti-nostalgia sentiment. If I liked a game I don't like to be told I shouldn't like or enjoy it anymore.

[crystal hill]

I love Half Life 1 more than Doom 2 at base, but HL1 has far fewer mods, and fewer excellent ones at that

[stiff basalt]

Crack life

[crystal hill]

Thats a meme

[bitter shoal]

Most HL1 mods were multiplayer ones IIRC, there was a ton of variety there but dead servers etc

[static jasper]

Nah like, every single game known to earth, once you reach a certain point of so many hours played in a game you're just gonna get bored at some point, it's how life works. You just replace it with another game

[crystal hill]

I guess?

[twilit rock]

i have yet to play a mod that exceeds the original in quality but that doesn't mean I don't value their place or enjoy playing them

[crystal hill]

But the point is that some games last a lot longer than others

[static jasper]

That yes

[crystal hill]

Doom 2 isnt bad but I've played at least a few dozen I would consider superior

[static jasper]

At the end of the day it's videogames we talking about here

There's no need to do wars about them

[crystal hill]

We're just talking

I dont think anyone's getting mad over this

[bitter shoal]

I have a feeling this is unavoidable whenever I play Scythe 2 and if I end up liking it

[twilit rock]

doom 2 is definitely not quite as good as doom 1

[full shoal]

I've first played Doom around 95 and it was good, great game. I always thought that it was a great and important game for its time. Now 30 years later I started to play it on UV and without saves and suddenly the whole thing opened up. And it's not just an old game holding up but it's still a peak fps experience with endless amount of content.

[twilit rock]

by a little tiny bit

[cinder sapphire]

ugh the youtube search results is so crappy now

[crystal hill]

Ehhhh

[cinder sapphire]

@static jasper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03nXwRd41KA

[stiff basalt]

Brutal half life

[cinder sapphire]

that's a gameplay mod

[crystal hill]

Doom 1 takes fewer risks, and is more bland to me

[full shoal]

But yeah Doom 2 doesn't hold a candle to Doom 1.

[crystal hill]

Its a lot of shotgunning everything to death for the most part

[cinder sapphire]

and this one too, is a completely different one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_6N5UeMUPA @static jasper

[twilit rock]

although doom 2 has grown on me over the past couple years actually

[static jasper]

funny enough I enjoyed doom 1 more than 2

[crystal hill]

Doom 2 having a super shotgun, more enemies and more creative level design elevates it for me

[twilit rock]

i like a lot more than i used to

[full shoal]

Final Doom and NRFTL are much better than original Doom2

[bitter shoal]

I disagree mostly because even though DOOM 1 has better level layouts the worse enemy variety hurts the gameplay quite a bit (ang SIGIL as well)

[stiff basalt]

K then replace base doom 2 with nrftl

[twilit rock]

unpopular opinion but i like the shotgun better than the super shotgun

[cinder sapphire]

I do too

[bitter shoal]

And Plutonia is DOOM 2 without what makes people say DOOM 1 is better than DOOM 2

[crystal hill]

Dont the vast majority of people like it?

[twilit rock]

How it plays not like how good it is as a weapon

[crystal hill]

Why??

[cinder sapphire]

reloading takes too long

[stiff basalt]

Everybody likes shotgunning barons to death

[crystal hill]

Its really inconsistent. You sometimes cant kill an imp at point blank

[bitter shoal]

This is actually a popular opinion

[crystal hill]

Slightly longer than the shotgun, for like 2 or 3 times the firepower

A worthy tradeoff

[bitter shoal]

anyway I should beat this map instead of looking at chat

[static jasper]

Lol it's just that a lot of people get so triggered over people having opinions about games it's just so pointless. The amount of shit I've seen on the internet is astonishing. It almost feels like they don't have anything better to do or just are too frustrated 🤷😂

[twilit rock]

the super shotgun feels too powerful and sometimes doing good with a less powerful gun feels better

[cinder sapphire]

yup it's cool, but I dont always need the extra. it's funner to kill zombs with the regular for me

[twilit rock]

when i'm mowing down fodder with the super shotgun it feels like the game is on rails but when i'm spamming the super shotgun to kill an arachnotron/mancubus it just feels like "this would be easier with a rocket launcher/plasma gun"

It doesnt feel fun to use ever really for me at least

[crystal hill]

Thats a bizaare take. Doom 2 has more powerful enemies, you need a more powerful gun for them

[twilit rock]

This is just my weird doom 1 pilled opinion though

[bitter shoal]

I think the notion of the SSG being overpowered comes from DOOM 2 giving you it very early and it being able to nuke large groups of hitscanners, it is more balanced with a lot of the higher tier enemies though and the higher tier weapons are still better if you have the ammo.

[stiff basalt]

Bro literally said new doom games are better because those are newer

[full shoal]

It usually is that people just throw their own opinion out there and when people want to discuss they pull out "omg dude it's just an opinion" card

[static jasper]

Most of times

[crystal hill]

Thats what the chaingun is for

[static jasper]

And I did not even say that

[twilit rock]

I don't mind people having opinions at all as long as they accept that other people will having differing ones

[crystal hill]

Since your shells are saved for the ssg, the chaingun takes over for killing single enemies or sniping

[static jasper]

The super shotgun is good asf sometimes shit gets so heated it saved my life a lot

[crystal hill]

If you only play Doom 2, I suppose the idea that the SSG is overpowered is more reasonable (but pistol starting counters that). But it is used much better in wads

[static jasper]

If it was weaker it wouldn't have liked it as much

[crystal hill]

Whats interesting is, there are still some niche situations where you should still use the shotgun over the ssg. If you need to snipe something and dont have a chaingun or enough bullets is the obvious one

[twilit rock]

idk playing doom 2 with the super shotgun is like playing rockman with the boss weapons

[crystal hill]

If there is no ssg in the level, then the shotgun and chaingun fall back into their D1 roles

[twilit rock]

sometimes the most powerful thing isn't always the most fun

[crystal hill]

The intended way?

[twilit rock]

i like to struggle a little

[full shoal]

Scythe does it well, doesn't give you SSG in the first lvls at all

[cinder sapphire]

have you played Hideous Destructor?

[crystal hill]

Wads exist to make the game harder

[twilit rock]

Idk what that is

[crystal hill]

I'm surprised you're sticking to the original wads if you like a challenge so much

[crystal hill]

If scythe gave you an ssg in its early levels, it would be utter overkill

[static jasper]

You can not use it

[crystal hill]

Those levels are super easy as it is, possibly easier than Doom 1's

[cinder sapphire]

it is an ultra realistic gameplay mod for classic Doom. if you want to struggle a little and feel the super shotty is op, I highly recommend you check it out. it completely changes the way you will play Doom.

[crystal hill]

See, I can respect people who want that, but I dont get it myself

If I want to change the way I play Doom... I'll go play a different game

I want to play Doom, so I play Doom wads that don't change the core gameplay of it

[static jasper]

Agreed

[twilit rock]

I don't solely stick to the original wads I just haven't played many mods

I'm playing through a wad currently though

[crystal hill]

Which one?

[cinder sapphire]

check it out. there are so many ways you can play. there are others too.

[bitter shoal]

I like mainly wads that are "more DOOM 1/2", though I'm fine with custom weapons if it is tied to a mapset and its own gameplay vision and not something trying to make DOOM at its core better.

[crystal hill]

100% this

If I must play a gameplay mod, I want it to include custom maps to play on

[twilit rock]

slaughter until death

[crystal hill]

Hmm. Not one I'm familiar with

[twilit rock]

its been pretty fun so far

Ive played it before like a year ago but I forgot most of it

[sharp wyvern]

oof

[crystal hill]

Wait, thats not true, lol

[twilit rock]

i'm playing it in preperation for the evil unleashed which im gonna play next

[crystal hill]

Its the one from 1994, right? I have played it, I just memoryholed it

[twilit rock]

yeah

[bitter shoal]

Right now I keep looking at chat because this Plutonia Revisited 2 map is really long, 300 enemies but they are all spread out among a lot of encounters and ambushes. Probably the first map in this set I'm kind of whatever on: it's well made but the ambushes are pretty tacky.

[static jasper]

Not something everyone have to agree with

[crystal hill]

Its not one of my favourites from 1994, but then again the standards were much lower then

[twilit rock]

i think it's really good for the time actually

[crystal hill]

The best from that year dont really compare to Doom 1

[sharp wyvern]

Master Levels < TNT < Doom 2 < Plutonia < NRFTL tbh

[twilit rock]

i like it better than tfc i think

[bitter shoal]

1994 standards are crazy cause Plutonia just kind of poops on everything at that timeframe.

[crystal hill]

I guess? But I dont tend to judge things by the standards of the time

[twilit rock]

well its from 1996 so

[bitter shoal]

Unless something else as good came out at the same time that I forget

[crystal hill]

More so by modern standards

[bitter shoal]

which I probably did

[crystal hill]

Which is harsh, but some things survive scrutiny

[sharp wyvern]

I love horror in my Doom

[crystal hill]

Plutonia, Alien Vendetta, Chord 3

[crystal hill]

Plutonia is the best wad of the 90s and its not really close

[sharp wyvern]

Which is why I love Doom 1, LoR, 64, 3, small parts of 2016

horror in doom >>>>

[twilit rock]

so there's this thing called doom.wad

[stiff basalt]

But legacy of rust doesnt have any horror

[crystal hill]

Crossing Acheron was pretty neat. Made by Dr Sleep, guy who did some work on TFC and Master Levels

[crystal hill]

Indeed, it clears it handily

The gameplay is just without compare

[full shoal]

Not bad! I'd go Doom 2 / Master Levels < TNT < NRFTL < Plutonia... maybe.

[twilit rock]

i like plutonia but i wouldn't say it's better than doom 1

[bitter shoal]

Usually I don't like when a game is made at the time (like Final Fantasy 3 on NES) with technical limitations that tends to be compared to newer stuff but when something like Plutonia just like kind of nails it right off the bat and the stuff you can criticize it for come off as more stylish cheeky mean spiritedness than anything, it makes it harder to excuse other wads that don't hold up nearly as well >.>

[sharp wyvern]

oh yeah i forgot master levels lol

[full shoal]

I still kinda loved Master Levels with all the horrible shit they threw at you. Might be a stockholm syndrome

[twilit rock]

i like tnt more honestly

[crystal hill]

Oh dear

[sharp wyvern]

ive grown an appreciation for them

[cinder sapphire]

I do too. no music and darkness mods with a flashlight. sometimes I make it super dark and have to use flares. super atmospheric 👌

[sharp wyvern]

especially the Cabal series

[twilit rock]

tnt is way overhated

[crystal hill]

TNT is better for atmosphere and music, but gameplay trumps all in my head

[bitter shoal]

TNT does have its fans, it just resonates with some people better.

[crystal hill]

It has administration centre

[stiff basalt]

I like mephisto's mausoleum

[bitter shoal]

To be fair I stan DOOM 2 and it has Chasm and stuff

[sharp wyvern]

tbh i cant get bored of classic doom either and i didnt play it when it came out

[crystal hill]

Felt like a semi high quality fanmade work

But way below the id standards

[sharp wyvern]

although ig it depends on the quality of the wad

idk if doom 2 sets a high bar for id standards

[stiff basalt]

Some levels do

[crystal hill]

It towers above the master levels

Even the gimmicky sorta scuffy ones are at least charming

[sharp wyvern]

this is true

[twilit rock]

plutonia has

[bitter shoal]

I am guessing most iD developers were on Quake at that point and it was mainly Shawn Green working with TNT/Casalis/Master Level authors to prepare the expansions.

[crystal hill]

The master levels make me beg for the sweet release of a power outage

[twilit rock]

well plutonia has a lot of moments where i'm like "why"

[static jasper]

Don't make me change your mind

[full shoal]

I think some master levels showed the next step for doom mapping. Black Tower, Bloodsea keep, even Titan Manor and fuckin Mephisto :D

[crystal hill]

Plutonia has a lot of great fights

[stiff basalt]

And a lot of bs traps

[twilit rock]

maybe it's because i play on fast monsters that i feel like plutonia is so hard

[bitter shoal]

That is the thing with plutonia, it does have bad moments but usually they are part of maps that are good otherwise. Or sometimes the map actually is bad (like Impossible Mission) but it has good segments in it.

[bitter shoal]

okay that is fair

[crystal hill]

That would make it harder, yes

[twilit rock]

yeah there's some unforgivable moments in plutonia LOL

[sharp wyvern]

:P

[crystal hill]

They're usually at least somewhat telegraphed

I'd rather be ambushed than bored to death

[twilit rock]

it's still a really good wad like close to doom 1 and 2 tier but it has some things that hold it back imo

[bitter shoal]

I think the start of Map 04 I think it was, is the point where it does cross the line with the guaranteed hitscanner damage but the actual map after that is absolute cinema

[twilit rock]

it's like what i'd call an 8 or 9 out of 10

[sharp wyvern]

notice how 3/4 of the ones you listed were from the Cabal series lol

[full shoal]

That is true :D

[sharp wyvern]

if Doom 2's master levels were just the Cabal series (in full, including the ones id didn't purchase) people would consider them on the same par as Doom II

[crystal hill]

Titan Manor was maybe my least favourite one

[stiff basalt]

What about teeth?

[sharp wyvern]

TEETH is a great level IMO

[crystal hill]

All the Jim Flynn levels I've played were super frustrating

[bitter shoal]

anyway I never played Master Levels I should probably watch a video I was just linked elsewhere

[crystal hill]

I would say play it, even just once

[twilit rock]

i actually really love the master levels

[crystal hill]

If you own D1 + 2 you can play it there

[twilit rock]

i think i might like the master levels more than plutonia LOL

Not to say they're better but like I think i'd rather play them

[crystal hill]

I've always believed there is no such thing as a wrong opinion

[twilit rock]

Idk i have a soft spot for those weird levels

[crystal hill]

However, my faith is being tested

[stiff basalt]

Damn

[sharp wyvern]

i think i look at the master levels too favourably but they have a lot to like or admire

[full shoal]

There still might not be a level I would've died more to than TEETH

[crystal hill]

Teeth by master levels standards is good

[sharp wyvern]

mephisto despite contested gameplay has good area design, teeth has a fun gimmick, bloodsea keep is just a banger with great location, level design and enemy placement

[crystal hill]

Its very chokey and cramped but it has gameplay to it

[stiff basalt]

That intro section with fast monsters is a pain

[sharp wyvern]

titan levels have good area design but naff level design imo

idk what word to use but yk like how things look

titan manor looks neat

[crystal hill]

But its titan manor

[sharp wyvern]

id say teeth is more fun than most doom 2 levels for me

[crystal hill]

I spent close to an hour in titan manor I wish I had back

[crystal hill]

Cant agree

Downtown or some of the more open ones, maybe

But Doom 2 still has a lot of gems in it

[sharp wyvern]

plutonia has the achievement of first good city map in doom

[twilit rock]

wrong they're in doom 2

[sharp wyvern]

ehh

first Really Good city map

[twilit rock]

sandy petersen might be a weird guy but i really do love his levels

[sharp wyvern]

sandy isnt rly that weird is he

[crystal hill]

Suburbs is pretty neat

[twilit rock]

he's like very vocally anti woke and his board game company scams a lot of people

[crystal hill]

But downtown is awful

[sharp wyvern]

icl it's funny how romero tried to claim that doom 2 was a pure passion project and acted like sandy was totally lying when he said doom 2 was a cash grab but like sandy made most of doom 2 and was also on the team i think sandy is probably the more accurate one 😭

[twilit rock]

and he lies about his days at id fairly habitually

[twilit rock]

No sandy lies about a lot of stuff

Like easily proven false stuff

[sharp wyvern]

sandy lies or forgets a lot but doom 2 being a cash grab is most likely true and also he made more of doom 2

[stiff basalt]

Maybe he doesnt remember things that well

[sharp wyvern]

like lets b real doom 2 is somewhat of an id software victory lap

[crystal hill]

I understand why people hate him for these things, but I judge his maps unaffected by my thoughts on them

[twilit rock]

Yeah me too

[stiff basalt]

Final doom for psx was the real cash grab

[crystal hill]

If I found out he murdered someone, I wouldnt knock suburbs down a grade (assuming he made that)

[twilit rock]

That's what I was trying to say like regardless of that I still like his maps more than like 90% of doom fans

[crystal hill]

Nonesense

[twilit rock]

He did

[sharp wyvern]

when you think about it the ancient gods is nudoom's final doom

[crystal hill]

I dont like the more atmospheric bend, but thats proof it isnt just a cashgrab

[twilit rock]

made suburbs i mean

[crystal hill]

Fuckin hell

[stiff basalt]

Doom 2 still had a lot of effort put in it

[crystal hill]

I thought you said he actually murdered someone, lol

[crystal hill]

Well, good on him for that

[sharp wyvern]

• contested follow up
• split into two parts
• large amounts of content that had to be cut due to it being promised to come out in a certain timeframe (ie old Davoth boss, Perdition’s Gate)
• second part set on a post invasion earth (which even introduces the chaingunner lol)
• much much harder than Doom 2/Eternal

[twin mortar]

People do actually play TAG though so there's that

[sharp wyvern]

People do actually play… Plutonia

[stiff basalt]

Eternal DLC was meant to be very different

[sharp wyvern]

Jury’s out on TNT

[twilit rock]

i play tnt

[crystal hill]

I play the first map of TNT

[twin mortar]

I mean that people don't blindly shit on TAG without having had played it, Final DOOM gets that negative reception a lot and as a result most of the people who play Final are hardcore fans

[sharp wyvern]

True true

[stiff basalt]

You were supposed to play as a different protagonist during the invasion on earth

[crystal hill]

The music kicks ass and its great fun to berserk punch everything

[sharp wyvern]

One good thing abt DOOM + DOOM II as a port is that it has massively increased the amount of final doom players

[crystal hill]

Massively?

[twin mortar]

From 2 to 4

[sharp wyvern]

Aha different protagonist in cut dlc this is another final doom parallel to Perdition’s Gate

[stiff basalt]

People do shit on tag 2 though

[sharp wyvern]

I was abt to type that ahaha

[twin mortar]

Not blindly

[stiff basalt]

Yeah they do

[twin mortar]

Can't be on the same scale as Final at least

[stiff basalt]

All thanks to funny nudoom tubers

[sharp wyvern]

Doom 3 and Final Doom will one day recover from the slander (they won’t)

[twin mortar]

It'll only get worse

[sharp wyvern]

Final Doom is now being treated as just an expansion by modern id… sigh… one day Plutonia will get justice

[twin mortar]

Final is the only DOOM game I have yet to beat that isn't those weird mobile ones or TDA

[stiff basalt]

I havent seen any slander towards plutonia

[twin mortar]

I intend to beat it in the id marathon I am doing rn (I will most likely get burnt out)

[sharp wyvern]

Plutonia evades slander by it being overhyped a little

[stiff basalt]

Its always with tnt

[crystal hill]

Well, it doesnt have new music, it doesnt look too good, and people complain about the traps

[sharp wyvern]

Go 2 It is probably the level I come back to most often tbf

[twilit rock]

i wouldnt necesarily call plutonia overhyped

[sharp wyvern]

If Final Doom just added 1 weapon or 1 new enemy people would like it way more lol

[twilit rock]

more like tnt is overhated in comparison

[stiff basalt]

Plutonia is just Doom 2 but better

But nrftl is the better experience

[sharp wyvern]

This isn’t to say it needed those things just that it would make it better received by the average player

I’m surprised TNT lacks a new enemy tbh given how there were a decent amount of them in wads at the time

[twin mortar]

I can't really picture a new enemy made by a fan team in the mid 90s looking good

Imagining some slop creature like in the Spear of Destiny mission packs

[twilit rock]

alienstc

[stiff basalt]

I wss going to say that

[twin mortar]

Or like those early FNaF fangames with insanely shitty sprite edits

[twilit rock]

We will not slander the ultimate challenge here

[twin mortar]

We will

[twilit rock]

we will slander five nights at warios here

[stiff basalt]

Fnaf 3

[crystal hill]

Yeah so that isnt really very good

[twilit rock]

the only one of those that manages to be scary was five nights at the chum buckets

[crystal hill]

Not even a total conversion, just a graphics change

And it fails to make a spoopy atmosphere by not changing the music

[twin mortar]

That entire series had horrible graphics lol the second game looked like cheap CGI

[stiff basalt]

Super cancer

[twin mortar]

Slipped on soap into a springlock costume

Anyway classic DOOM

[sharp wyvern]

I like TTP’s Evil Trooper

[crystal hill]

I wonder if theres a fnaf doom mod out there

[stiff basalt]

There is

[crystal hill]

Surely, at the height of its popularity

[sharp wyvern]

I mean it’s not mindblowing but it’s cool it exists

[crystal hill]

Aye aye

TTP is a very solid wad, especially for the time

[sharp wyvern]

(It’s Doomguy’s sprite edited to be slightly bloodied and also helmetless and the enemy uses a rapid fire hitscan which is slightly slower(?) than a chaingunner)

Basically Assault Rifle Zombie from Doom 3

[twin mortar]

I know someone recreated FNaF in SnapMap

[sharp wyvern]

I’ve seen several FNaF doom wads

[stiff basalt]

Damn gamejolt link is not allowed

[twin mortar]

Can we ban Tenor next

[crystal hill]

Fair

[sharp wyvern]

Actually idk exactly how the IOS works in classic doom but

I wonder why TNT and Plutonia didn’t have their own textures instead of Doom II’s Baphomet

Could’ve made any kind of new monster

Ig so players knew what to do 🤷‍♀️

[twin mortar]

The original texture looks quite nice, if it ain't broke don't fix it

[stiff basalt]

That cacodemon ios from plutonia revisited

[sharp wyvern]

Oh yeah it’s a great texture and TNT’s ending screen with it is one of the most striking visuals of classic doom IMO

I just also wonder what they would’ve done if they’d created their own original antagonists

Could’ve been cool :P

Sigh I wish Perdition’s Gate didn’t get cut from Final Doom I rly like its ending

With the fakeout IoS fight

[sharp wyvern]

TNT’s ending is really cool in general I like the vibe it has

[crystal hill]

You must be the biggest Perd Gate fan in the Doom community

[twin mortar]

Doesn't the cast screen have a weird IoS? Blue eyes iirc

[crystal hill]

I've never heard anyone talk about it so much

[sharp wyvern]

No definitely not

I just like mentioning it because of its weird place in Doom history, cool final sequence, and ugly as fuck ending screen which I assume we’ve all seen

[sharp wyvern]

In TNT yeah it does it’s a screenshot of the IOS fight but with blue eyes and sky instead of red

https://doomwiki.org/w/images/d/d5/Text_screen_after_M30_FD_TNTE.png

https://static.doomworld.com/monthly_2022_12/BOSSBACK.png.ed5d217c0f743be10b2466748bccaad6.png

[stiff basalt]

Better plot than nudoom games

[sharp wyvern]

This ending text and screen has always kinda stuck with me idk why

It’s just neat 🤷‍♀️

[bitter shoal]

I still haven't gotten over Plutonia 2's plot in the text file being Plutonia Doomguy being a failed president of the US

[sharp wyvern]

Technically if you think about it this is the first mention of demon corpses evaporating on death and it features a Titan glowing blue when defeated, both things that were in NuDoom

[stiff basalt]

Doom 64 started the trend of corpses disappearing

[sharp wyvern]

Nuh uh TNT came first 🤓

[stiff basalt]

K but we talking gameplay wise

[sharp wyvern]

[stiff basalt]

Thats one good reason to shit on doom 64

[twilit rock]

i really want to play hell to play and perditions gate

[twilit rock]

LMAO

You're not wrong

[crystal hill]

You can do it, I believe in you

[twilit rock]

They seem fun I just have a lot of wads to play

[crystal hill]

Its just another backlog

But with free doom wads instead of games

[sharp wyvern]

I got stuck on Capybara

[full shoal]

just beat Burial Grounds from Scythe

beautiful level!

[bitter shoal]

I just looked at which one that was. That level had some cool visual set pieces

the map after that was one of my favorites

[full shoal]

Book Lords? Also a fine map

Scythe feels so good ngl

[median trellis]

scythe is such a classic

[crystal hill]

scythe is neat

it finally hits it's stride in the last 40% or so (with a few exceptions)

[median trellis]

I beat map 29 last night and really enjoyed it

[crystal hill]

its a bit too open and confusing, but it's not bad

has anyone played the adventures of square?

[cursive swallow]

I used to

[median trellis]

the lack of armor in scythe's early hell levels was genius

[karmic estuary]

I always liked this finale more than Plutonia's

Except those Squid Game death floors at the beginning, I hate those

[crystal hill]

what did you think?

[pearl tiger]

I'm trying the Fun Levels of Doom 64. The Cyberdemon in Cat and Mouse is a troll.

[chrome kayak]

can it run doom

[crystal hill]

the nice thing is, that level is quite short

[pearl tiger]

Yeah. All I need to do is kill the Cyberdemon, which is easier said than done.

[crystal hill]

what've you got? plasma? a bfg?

[pearl tiger]

All I have is a rocket launcher provided at the start.

[crystal hill]

oh lord

[pearl tiger]

And given that it's a Fun Level, it can only be accessed through the Features menu.

The Cyberdemon also teleports.

[unique spear]

hey guys, i found something that got me to the last level in knee deep in the dead while playing crispy doom on my chromebook

[crystal hill]

...good luck

[unique spear]

so if you want to know, dm me

so, anybdy want to know a secret

because it worked

[crystal hill]

????

if you're so desperate to share it, just post it in here

[mighty walrus]

No asking people to dm you about game secrets you can just publicly share here. Thanks!

[unique spear]

uhh, guys, my discovery is in the videos channel

[bitter shoal]

I just realized I should have been responding here instead. Probably the most interesting thing about the video is the rocket explosion being nulled by the texture at the end

[sharp wyvern]

I honestly quite like that part just depends on if u clock the torches in the hallway

[crystal hill]

resurgence adds the two scythe 2 custom enemies in the last third

they're both nerfed hard, but still... why

[winter charm]

that level is always a bloodbath lol

[unreal siren]

first level is a peebath

[twilit rock]

one of my biggest pet peeves with fan wads

is that too often they make the levels absolutely enormous

[static jasper]

Black tower type of shit

[sharp wyvern]

black tower is sick tho

[median trellis]

guys what is the best midi in a doom wad

[sharp wyvern]

in official wads it would have to be something from legacy of rust

in every wad ever made idk

[median trellis]

arrival has insane tracks

the best midi imo is the infinite sky by zach siegel

[twilit rock]

e1m8 or map20

[sharp wyvern]

map20 of what

[little oar]

E2M8 'Nobody Told Me About Id'
OG DOOM/Ultimate DOOM
(Notable mention to E1M8 'Sign Of Evil')

[median trellis]

what about in custom wads

[karmic estuary]

So there is a way to tell

[bitter shoal]

yeah IIRC there are a line of colored torches before that which tell you the order to go to

[sharp wyvern]

Yeah lol

I like the puzzle but I get why most people don’t notice it

[bitter shoal]

I wonder why more map authors, whenever they want an ambush that is just an archvile in a small room don't just add a 2nd one. Adds a significant amount of skill needed to survive without altering the identity fo the fight too much.

also I just realized in the fight I just did I could have just opened the door in front of me and left

SO MAYBE I AM WRONG

https://tenor.com/view/just-leave-barney-ross-sylvester-stallone-the-expendables-just-go-gif-3690092957935891002

-- Decino

[median trellis]

I did that on my new map, I put a double arch-vile at the very end lol

[bitter shoal]

Map 29 of PRCP also did it except it actually trapped me properly

[twilit rock]

doom 2

[sharp wyvern]

right

[median trellis]

I put a double arch-vile ambush in my previous wad as well, in an area with some dead enemies to revive and rather minimal cover

[bitter shoal]

ah yeah I am talking about if the fight is just supposed to be an archvile, I just realized adding another just makes that concept a lot more interesting

though a contributing factor to the difficulty was how thin the pillars were

[median trellis]

certainly

[bitter shoal]

so that could have been part of it too

[median trellis]

how good is prcp compared to plutonia 1 and 2?

[bitter shoal]

Like... I can't recommend it unless you are an enthusiast. There are some good levels in there but the other half of the levels too closely resemble playing the Plutonia 1 versions they are based on and often times they are either not much better (because Plutonia already peaked with the encounter design they're re-using) or actually worse (like the O of Destruction map)

I'm going through PRCP 2 right now and so far it is much better and less over-derivative, but I need to finish the wad to make judgement because a lot of PRCP's weaker maps came during the earlier Hell levels.

oh yeah PRCP1 had the worst Icon of Sin. It did have my favorite Map 11 and Map 32 of the Plutonia games though

So I have to see if PRCP 2 changes that

[karmic estuary]

Interesting, will have to write it down

I used to save-spam to get past that, glad to know there's another way

[twilit rock]

have you guys played serenity

and if so what did you think

[bitter shoal]

I'm afraid I hadn't. What kind of wad is it?

[twilit rock]

e3 replacement

curious selection of levels

It's not exactly super challenging but it's enjoyable

[crystal hill]

Black tower is tiny compared to some stuff I've played

I really jade earth but its an absolute trial to get through. Hour and a half or so first time

[crystal hill]

Been months now, dont remember a thing about it

[mighty walrus]

ew black tower

more ew TEETH

[crystal hill]

Apparently I didnt finish it though. Maybe I played too many subpar 1994 wads around that time

[crystal hill]

Less good than both, quite derivative of 1 in a bad way, it has its gems, certainly. I would say its worth a playthrough

[sharp wyvern]

why are these the levels from the ML you dislike

they’re like two of the only good ones

[crystal hill]

As a certified master levels hater, black tower and teeth are easily some of the best ones. Top 5 easily

[sharp wyvern]

Curious as to what the other 3 would be

Bloodsea Keep I assume

[crystal hill]

Me too, that was an offhand comment

Bad Dream is mildly amusing and it ends quickly

[crystal hill]

Bloodsea Keep was kinda unmemorable but played well enough, so it also probably goes in the top 5 lol

[sharp wyvern]

#nooticing how every level we listed is a Cabal level

[sharp wyvern]

Honestly the titular blood sea and the throne room make it memorable enough for me

I like Veavitdpoh he’s neat

[crystal hill]

Dr Sleep was real neat at making levels

Crossing Acheron was my favourite of 1994, as damning with faint praise as that is

Wait, did he not make those master levels?

Look, my brain has done its best to forget those for self defence purposes

[sharp wyvern]

They’re by Cranium lol

[crystal hill]

Whoops

[sharp wyvern]

Dr Sleep made the “Inferno” series which was also in the ML

Virgil’s Lead, Minos’ Judgement, Nessus, Geryon, Vesperas

Unfortunately I do not remember a single thing from any of those levels

[crystal hill]

Neither do I

[mighty walrus]

what my opinion?

[crystal hill]

One day I'll replay em, as part of my full series playthrough

[sharp wyvern]

“Chiron” was also a level in the Inferno series I think except it got turned into E4M7 of Doom 1 lol

[crystal hill]

Huh? No, my top 5 comment

[mighty walrus]

Ah. But I do know plenty of people who don't like Express elevator to hell. In fact I've only met people who didn't like it until now.

[sharp wyvern]

TEETH is sucky if you’re trying to do it no deaths but I enjoy playing through it

[crystal hill]

I dont love it but its the master levels

[mighty walrus]

I'll get into my reasoning tomorrow to be fair about it and not just shit on it without purpose. Just took my melatonin lol.

[crystal hill]

You dont get many picks for good levels

[mighty walrus]

This is true

I do like Mephisto's Maosoleum just for the reason I find it cool looking inside and fun. That's all about it though.

[bitter shoal]

Since It is only 9 levels I might attempt to play this Serenity wad while I'm on my laptop

[sharp wyvern]

That one is rather neat

I love the Rev rising out of the coffin

[mighty walrus]

I was so confused the first time before I realized that's how you get inside💀

Thought my game had glitched and I was running around the outside like a lunatic

[crystal hill]

I cant reccomend it

Unless you like 1994 wads

[bitter shoal]

I want to be able to at least talk about it so I might give it a whirl

not being able to talk about subject matter is sometimes an obstaclce for me so it might be worth the trip

[crystal hill]

I tend to prioritise doing and playing what I like over what would make good conversation

I'd like to talk to people about resurgence, but if I cant, I won't stop and play something else

[bitter shoal]

if I don't like it I'll stop playing but since it is a 9 level wad I figure why not give it a whirl

unless the levels are like super long or something

[crystal hill]

According to my notes, I didnt finish it, so make of that what you will

[bitter shoal]

okay I can see why you are against this wad now, it being brought up earlier made me think it'd be more interesting

[bitter shoal]

I just tried it now, I actually decided to just cheat on first level because there is no health and a dark room full of hitscanners

it probably wouldn't b e that bad of a 1994 set if it placed more health

[crystal hill]

nah. it's a 1994 wad, that's about it

[bitter shoal]

it looks and plays better than some 1994 wads I see in videos it just has really bad resource provisionals

[crystal hill]

The three I remember from that year and think are decent are Crossing Acheron (a bit mazey though), Trinity College (for how impressive it is for a 1994 wad) and The Evil Unleashed (I don't remember anything about it. Same people made it that made Serenity, but I rated it 1st out of the 1994 cacowards. Dunno why)

[crystal hill]

I guess it is a cut above the typical 1994 wad. Still not great though

[bitter shoal]

I don't get why this wad supposedly isn't very challenging. You have to play perfect against a map full of shotgunners because the game just doesn't provide health and armor

text file is saying I am doing it wrong if I'm not finding hidden rooms, that is probably where all the health is

okay no the text file is lying to make me feel bad. Doomwiki is saying there are six stimpacks in this entire map.

the map is massive as well

this is why you shouldn't stop me from playing stuff this is actually amazing

oh there is a berserk somewhere

that is still really stingy

these maps look progressively better with each one which is neat.

[bitter shoal]

four of the stimpacks were in the crate section in the last room btw, after the last big battle of the map

[red harbor]

and i thought the casalis were evil

[bitter shoal]

their philosophy is to actually be pretty generous with resources, because they wanted you to be able to use higher tier weapons against higher tier enemies more often. Most of their evil comes from what enemies do instead

Dario explained this while complaining about not having a decent weapon yet in TNT lol

[crystal hill]

the guys who made that mapset also made other stuff, so if you like that one, there's others to try

they were really prominent in the first 3 or so years of Doom's existence

Requiem is probably my favourite project they were involved in. Of all the "classic" 90s megawads, that one may be my favourite (excluding official releases and Cyberdreams, which is gimmicky as hell)

[mortal silo]

5 weeks until the cacowards !!

dont forgor to rto

[crystal hill]

another year of wads I need to play

[mortal silo]

i feel like this year was pretty chill tbh

[crystal hill]

there's gonna be a crapton of them to play

last year, there were like 50+ wads that either won, were runners up, got an honorable mention, or were in one of the other categories

I doubt they're going to downside this year

[mortal silo]

it just depends on how much content the community produces
i feel like it was a lot less this year

yeah last year was loooooong

they also covered missed cacowards

[crystal hill]

I feel like if there is shrinkage, it's gonna be small

They won't go from 50 to 20 in a year

it'll be gradual, if it happens at all, which I am not convinced of

[mortal silo]

i wish teh cacowards were divinded up into format - vanilla/limit removing, boom et al, uzdoom

[crystal hill]

I dunno. That'd encourage them to pick out maps for all those categories evenly, even if, say, there's not many good vanilla WADs

[mortal silo]

there are some rather arty releases too. i dont know if those deserve a seperate category
prince & the void, alizarin, honktower, falaz, hi viz, beyond the zero,
ascension denied, etc

[crystal hill]

and GZDoom is sorely overrepresented due to all the gameplay mods

[mortal silo]

i dont think evenly, but itd be wierd to go a few years without a vanilla cacowards, which happened in the late teens iirc

[crystal hill]

I dunno if that's a problem

if no one's making good ones in those years, so be it

[mortal silo]

they run a missed cacoward section. they definitely miss good doom wads.

[crystal hill]

how many of those are vanilla?

[mortal silo]

sinergy vanilla, absission limit removing
2019 had 0 vanilla wads
2022 had 2 - kdikdizd and .... maybe 10x10? one is a mod, the other and art project

[crystal hill]

In the first missed cacowards, I count 9/25 that are vanilla or limit removing

none of which are in the late teens (two are in 2015)

[crystal hill]

10x10 is artsy, but it's still a very playable wad

[mortal silo]

edit: 2019 had zero vanilla / limit removing wads win cacowards\

[crystal hill]

2024 has 12/34 missed be vanilla/limit removing (one of which is multiplayer). Two are in the late 2010s, and two others are in the middle

[mortal silo]

its just really strange as a doom player, to go to the doom awards, and not see any releases for doom

[crystal hill]

it really just looks to me like very few people make vanilla wads

[mortal silo]

maybe wierder for a kexprot user, but sto;; rather wierd as a vanilla lover like me

[crystal hill]

which makes some sense. Even Boom offers a lot of extra features and QoL stuff

[mortal silo]

yes. thats why they should win more often.

[crystal hill]

I really don't care if the wad is vanilla or boom or GZDoom so long as it's good 🤷‍♂️

[crystal hill]

what kind of logic is that?

fewer entries = more wins?

and what if they're not good?

[mortal silo]

honorbale mention

[crystal hill]

and if they're not worth that?

I don't see the merit in awarding something undeserving of such an award

[mortal silo]

the hypothetical bad doom wad?

[crystal hill]

It's much easier to make a bad one than a good one

[mortal silo]

cheesewheel made a megawad in 3 days. i think it won a cacoward

[crystal hill]

Okay

I dunno how good it is, I've never heard of it let alone played it

[mortal silo]

its not easy to make a megawad period

[crystal hill]

okay?

what is your argument?

[mortal silo]

bro you are dumb

[crystal hill]

plenty of cacoward winners or runners up are not megawads

[mortal silo]

no offense

[crystal hill]

lol

"you are dumb"
"No offence"

actually comical

[mortal silo]

you were arguing with me and asked what my point was 😂
like that just comes off as some wierd desire for drama

[crystal hill]

you're saying things like this, which I do not understand. Yeah, it's hard to make a megawad. And?

so I was asking you to clarify exactly what you're trying to argue in favour of

[mighty walrus]

not necessary

[mortal silo]

but i disagree & also whats your point?

😅

[crystal hill]

it was necessary to insult me?

[mortal silo]

im probably about to get banned for saying vanilla wads should get a cacoward section

how dare i !

[mighty walrus]

You can disagree and still have a civil conversation without telling someone they're dumb. That's my point if saying "Not necessary" wasn't obvious enough.

[crystal hill]

I disagree with the idea that vanilla cacowards should get their own section because it would be elevating those that wouldn't normally earn a cacoward because "we need more vanilla wads to get awards"

if no good vanilla cacowards are coming out, so be it

[mighty walrus]

Rules McGee and I disagreed on what our preferred ML's were in Doom II last night and had a nice convo about it. People like to get other member's perspectives.

[mortal silo]

do you play with mods?

[crystal hill]

thanks chief

[crystal hill]

Nope. I play on GZDoom, but I'm weirdly a purist in how I play

[mighty walrus]

You won't get banned for disagreeing with someone. If you stay civil.

[crystal hill]

I think gameplay mods change what the game is too much for me to really enjoy them. The main exception is when they come with their own maps, and possibly enemies

Example - I'm not so keen on Brutal Doom. But Brutal Doom + the mapset built for Brutal Doom? Sure, I'll play that

[mortal silo]

https://tenor.com/view/louise-belcher-bobs-burgers-gif-1296380484369353970

yeah i agree that vanilla gameplay is ageless
there are very few wads where even the slightest gameplay change sits well with me
or even if it sits well, i dont find it necessary

like, reduced lost soul health seems perfectly fine and natural, but i am kinda against it 😆

[twilit rock]

i think it would be helpful

[crystal hill]

some small gameplay changes, I can tolerate fine. Ancient Aliens is kind of my limit for that - mostly everything is the same, but two new enemies are added. Fine, since the levels are designed around them

[twilit rock]

it might encourage people to make more vanilla wads which would be cool

[crystal hill]

Valiant has more than that, and it's super chaingun changes how you approach a lot of fights

[crystal hill]

helpful to what?

[crystal hill]

a lot of the things people want to make simply won't work in vanilla, so that won't discourage them

I reckon it would lower the bar for cacowards if there's not many vanilla ones to pick from, so the bottom of the barrel is scraped

[mortal silo]

bro navilla wads are not bad. they just dont use hexen format

[crystal hill]

I'd rather they be categorised by "genre". Typical Doom wads, joke wads, puzzle wads, atmospheric wads, the like

[crystal hill]

did I say that?

[mortal silo]

yeah that could work too

[crystal hill]

A lot of my favourites are vanilla or limit removing

But especially in recent years, there are fewer good ones to choose from, because people prefer to work with Boom or GZDoom

or MBF

[mortal silo]

when i a see a 1 map gzDoom wad get a cacoward
& a 32 level 🔥 vanilla megawad get skipped over|
i feel like i am being bamboozled by a system that favors advanced ports
which is FINE i like seeing Doom be pushed to its limits
but in no way should cacowards be despairing over "another vanilla episode/megawad"

[crystal hill]

The thing about the one map cacowards is, they tend to be absolutely massive

[mortal silo]

there are dozens of 1 map wads getting cacowards over the past 10 years and honestly i dont care for it

[crystal hill]

Comatase from Lainos is PRB+ compatible, and it's at least a good hour or two long first time

which is shorter than a lot of megawads, true. But it holds it's own with atmosphere and dread