the-codex

[stoic river]

I believe we're getting more of them in the dlc

[lapis saffron]

yeah marok has been said to be more prevalent which is good assuming hugo isnt just lying lol

[stoic river]

I hope so

[lapis saffron]

we ALL know that they're going to confirm that The Cabal became the Order of the Six we ALLLL know this lore is returning

[quaint geyser]

i wish the characters said a little more throughout the levels, it would add so much

[lapis saffron]

new project: extract all the lore i can from maximum doom /j

[forest cave]

I'm really interested in what this entails, because, like.

No disrespect to the writers here, but Marok is, like, barely a character. He's a whisper of a character. I have no clue what purpose he's gonna serve because he's mainly just there to give a name to the thing we know happened to the Betrayer's son.

[lapis saffron]

ideally he will become A Character

[forest cave]

Will he oppose the Slayer? Or will he be our friend? I'm pretty interested.

We know he won't die in the DLC which is an even more interesting choice, and very respectable.

[lapis saffron]

i think he will probably oppose the slayer as opposed to valen being a slayer fan

[forest cave]

We know he opposes him in the base game at least; I'm wondering if that'll change, though.

[lapis saffron]

man i know they have to do this for chronology reasons but id like to see SOMETHING from the codex happen

[forest cave]

See I'm mixed here. I will say one of my favorite things about TDA was how much original shit it had instead of focusing on showing Codex stuff. I was worried they'd basically try to condense the Unholy Wars into one game to do fanservice and have stupid shit like fighting the Baalgar, and was very pleasantly surprised to see that the story was much more original, and its scope way more character-focused.

That said, like. Yeah. I want some of the more relevant stuff to happen in the DLC.

Specifically I am personally hoping that the DLC either goes into the civil war stuff a bit, or ends with us discovering Nekravol.
I think us discovering Nekravol is incredibly likely.

Like, the Codex basically confirms it.

History of the Sentinels XI:

It was on a mission deep within the boiling seas of the nether realm, where the Order of the Six reside, that a company of Night Sentinels learned of the Khan Maykr's true dealings with the callous beasts. [...] The soldiers stood in awe at the base of a factory dedicated to such action, a place where the bodies of the slain were sorted and processed, tortured for the mill to have their souls extracted through sinister magick.
It's pretty damning that Eternal confirmed they discovered Nekravol on a mission to take down the Order, and then Hugo's like "wink wink nudge nudge you're gonna go after the Order in the DLC."

It'd be interesting if Nekravol were the final level and we got to fight Erebus in there, fulfilling the original idea from Eternal.

[coral vale]

Yeah, I'd definitely prefer to see him fleshed out into a character before they off him

I want a reason to care that he will die

[lapis saffron]

meh i think the baalgar would be fun

would've been a good mid game boss given how the game is pretty backloaded with its bosses

[lapis saffron]

pleaaase i NEED erebus

[forest cave]

Conceptually I agree, but in terms of continuity it can't work; the Baalgar died in the Third Age.

[lapis saffron]

im fine with them retconning that for gameplay purposes :3

(but this is also why id have preferred the game to just be set later)

[forest cave]

Fair.

[feral scarab]

That would be awesome

[forest cave]

Hi. Check this out.

Any good? Gonna post it online and maybe use it in the guide.

@small herald, you might be interested given the Archdemon discussion in the past.

[wicked turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[stoic river]

This feels pretty easy to follow

[raw pine]

ping me bro anyways love how this looks!

how’d you make this? paint.net?

[forest cave]

I'm gonna add some silly background shit to make it look a bit more fancy, then I'll post it to the subreddit.

Yeah, I use paint.net for everything image-wise. Used it for the guide too.

[raw pine]

i love paint.net. used it for a lot of stuff for future thumbnails, stuff like that. love it, have to make some more doom stuff with it

[tired sand]

It's pretty awesome ngl. Great work as always man!(Time to theory craft once again)

[forest cave]

How does this look?

More visually interesting?

[stoic river]

It might just be me, but the text over some of the parts that are in the boxes are a little hard to read

Probably just me

[tired sand]

Yeah

[forest cave]

My fucking graph has still not been approved on r/Doom. Awful

[stoic river]

yeah it was just me. I can read it better on my computer. I really need new glasses

[coral vale]

Yeah I'm gonna need a computer screen for it too
That's fine though -- not all things need to be designed for phones

[quaint geyser]

yeah im sorry but i do just disagree with this. I don't really understand how you can call that "fanservice" because the entire point of prequels (and sequels) is to payoff setup from previous entries. I mean that's like saying "man I hope the Star Wars prequels don't show Darth Vader's origins, that'd be fanservice" like buddy.. what?

I'm fine with them doing original stuff in these things too, it's required to keep things fresh but 1. they need to make it interesting because if it isn't it results in bloated world-building and 2. it honestly moreso comes off like they were afraid to do any of that stuff because of the monolithic expectations they had set for themselves going in and likely because of the mixed reactions to how they paid-off stuff in Eternal. I'm not saying they should've covered EVERYTHING in just one game but to have absolutely NONE of it? You can't exactly blame people for being let down by that, especially when that is partly what was promised in the marketing. There needs to be a balance, give us some new stuff whilst also paying off things setup throughout 2016 and Eternal. Everybody wins that way.

[lapis saffron]

the cosmic realm was good because it paid off TAG 2's setup but i needed more of the SENTINEL setup used

[lapis saffron]

i do think it's kind of funny that hugo's justification for not doing a game that ends in the sarcophagus is "what if we want to do another medieval game"

like... just do a game set further back dude lol

[quaint geyser]

because we need to keep making doom games forever until it doesn't resemble anything of what it was I guess, as if a new original title or Quake reboot can't spiritually carry on its legacy

damn im being negative again lol, i guess its inevitable

[lapis saffron]

that’s what happens always in the waiting period between games lol

[forest cave]

To me TDA paid off a lot of setup, it's just it was more character setup. IMO the point is less about seeing described events in person and more about experiencing the feelings we were told about that define characters like the Slayer and the Maykrs.

Like to me it was really great to see tangible and serious loss inflicted on the Slayer and for it to become the emotional hook of the finale. To me that's not just payoff for all of the tragic shit they build up with Argent D'Nur in Eternal, but payoff to something way older: Doomguy losing a pet and going nuts in the original game, and us getting to see this idea but taken seriously and actually relevant to the narrative.

I'd argue equally as important as payoff is recontextualization. The Maykr Tether is a big fucking deal, seeing just how much of the Slayer's brooding nonverbal aura farming shit isn't actually by choice, but because the Maykrs literally fucked his mind irreparably. That shines a completely new light on so much of his actions and character in the other two games. Like breaking the Father's Sphere, or making his own suit in Eternal, many of his interactions with Hayden...

In those regards I felt TDA was very rewarding as a story and experience.

[quaint geyser]

character stuff is great, i'm totally fine with that. It's not TDA itself I necessarily have an issue with, I think they just shouldn't have marketed the game the way they did and should've made it obvious from the get-go that's what they wanted to do. You'd have the audience able to come to terms with that long before release and then go in with the right expectations.

[lapis saffron]

The tether was good but I feel like Serrat could happen anytime

I think really we should’ve just had a Baalgar or one of the named titans like cmon

[forest cave]

If there's anything I wish we'd have had with TDA, it'd have been:

• More acknowledgement that these people knew Doomguy and bonded with him prior to the Divinity Machine. I do not like that the game acts like he's fucking new here or something.
• Anything regarding the other three Deag Priests would have been nice.
• I do kinda wish we'd have gotten to see Exultia, Taras Nabad, or Sentinel Prime. It would have been nice to see those cities in their prime.
• Gargoyles not being in the game is stupid. They are literally Argenta wildlife.

Boss-wise I'm fine with it. Despite how back-loaded they are, Enhanced Ahzrak is possibly the best sequence in the entire fucking trilogy, Kreed is a very decent fight, Ahzrak + Witch is great, and the Old One fight is fun. I don't need more.

[stoic river]

Yeah wait the gargoyles ARE GONE HUH

[lapis saffron]

A dragon boss would’ve been nice

[forest cave]

True. Okay yeah. It would've been nice to fight the Leviathan or Supentor from the Eternal Lorebook.

[lapis saffron]

A dragon gameplay rework would’ve been nice

[forest cave]

Dragon boss would've been a great opportunity for that.

[quaint geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/well-there-it-is-jeff-goldblum-gif-14058551

[lapis saffron]

hugo reference legacy of rust in the dlc and my life is yours

[wintry perch]

would've been horrid to be forced to aim up for tons of gargoyle fodder and nothing more

maybe a gargoyle stalker would've been cool doe, just one buffed up gargoyle that sticks to mid air areas so the cacodemon isn't alone in the sky

[lapis saffron]

well the gargoyles could be friendly

or in dragon segments as enemies you fight via dogfighting

[feral scarab]

I think it would’ve been cool to see Taras Nabad before that floating island mission, you can see a similar if not the same or one of the 2016 multiplayer islands in the background of the Taras Nabad codex image

[feral scarab]

Add a modern DOOM Vassago

Would be a brutal super heavy, could attack like an Imp Stalker almost

[tired sand]

You mean Holy City of Aratum yeah?

[feral scarab]

Yes

Someone pointed it out on Reddit a while back, it’s pretty cool

[feral scarab]

Gargoyles have to return. They’re both Argenta wildlife ofc, but also just fire designs

• It’s the best opportunity we have to see an unaltered one in game, no metal jaws or whatever

[quaint geyser]

Yeah this was cool actually, i didnt even see it there the first time i looked at that image so when i went back and saw it i was like whahhaaaaa

[forest cave]

https://www.tumblr.com/m0nology/815775562025025536/a-speculative-graph-on-hells-hierarchy
Tumblr version.

THIS ISN'T A PUNISHMENT.

A speculative graph on Hell's hierarchy.

Hi, here you go. I made this on a whim while I was updating ABSOLUTE DOOM.

Some additional notes under the cut:

- Archdemons are a tricky subject. Most people assume "Archdemon" just means "member of the Order of the Six," but technically this is never confirmed. In fact, the terms "Archdemon" and "Order of the Six" are never mentioned in the same Codex entry!** "Order of the Six" appears in History of the Sentinels XI, while "Archdemon" appears in the Doom Eternal entries for the Hell Knight and Spectre.**

- Given this, what we know about Archdemons is that they're called "immortal" by the art book, and the Codex refers to them as "eternal." The art book further calls them "Elder Hell gods." It appears Archdemons are very powerful demons, but it's my opinion that this is more a *category of demon* rather than a specific species, and that said category includes essentially any main antagonist demon (i.e. Ahzrak, the Mother Demon, the Imperatrix)

- The Art of DOOM Eternal is unreliable and sh...

Tumblr · May 5, 2026, 12:30 PM

[forest cave]

BTW, for an idea of what else I make in paint.net...

This is a graph I made detailing a customized play order I like to use for the RE series.

This isn't Doom related but I think going off-topic for half a second is acceptable. This one took me a while, and I had to make multiple versions + smaller images for individual sections for the sake of readability.

[tired sand]

Can ya share a higher quality pic? I can't read the words but the graph looks interesting...

[forest cave]

That's the highest quality I have, try opening it in your browser.

[tired sand]

I've read it and it's awesome man. I agree with every point but I like RE0 fairly enough tbh but yeah I wanna see the graph after Requiem's DLC update

[feral scarab]

@hollow finch

[hollow finch]

Oh wow this would've been an awesome design to see

[feral scarab]

They kinda reinvented it with the Gladiator, but I think the normal ones should've kept to that DOOM II look as well tbh

[hollow finch]

especially with how different the Barons look in Eternal, would've lessened the potential for repeats

[feral scarab]

Exactly

I feel the same about the Pinkies. I think the 2016 ones were a bit too sci fi looking, so making a more classic variant for Eternal would've been nice

[hollow finch]

I think the problem with the Doom II Hell Knight design is how similar it is to the Baron of Hell in other Doom games, so I'm glad they switched it up with the Doom 3 design

[hollow finch]

Pinkies across all games are all very unique and I really appreciate that

[feral scarab]

That's true, I still think the D3 and 2016 Hell Knights are the best interpretation

[hollow finch]

My favorite is the TDA Hell Knight because of their color and their armored variant which works really well

[feral scarab]

Yeah the Battleknight is awesome

I love proper enhanced enemies that aren't just invisible versions

[hollow finch]

Invisible versions of enemies are really hit or miss

I appreciate how the Spectre behaves in games but I genuinely think the invisible Whiplash from Eternal has no reason to exist

It doesn't even have a codex entry, just checked the wiki

[feral scarab]

I think the best approach has to be the TDA Nightmare Imp, where it kinda reveals itself

[hollow finch]

I really love the Nightmare Imp Stalker because of how insanely specific the conditions to create them must've been

[wicked turtle]

The glowing eyes definitely help

[hollow finch]

Get this: the first ever iteration of a Nightmare Imp is through intense radiation and very specific resurrection from the Mother Demon in 64

And I think the process must've been so insanely specific that in order to bring them back amongst Hell's ranks, Ahzrak must've reached out to the Witch to ask her for help

[feral scarab]

Mhm

[hollow finch]

I think it's really awesome to be fair

[feral scarab]

I wouldn't mind if they were the only spectral enemy to return

[lapis saffron]

I hate how they gave them eyes

[feral scarab]

Same tbf

[lapis saffron]

“What if we did the doom 3 design but didn’t understand at all why it was cool”

[feral scarab]

Mhm

[hollow finch]

Honestly I disagree, I like the eyes

But I think TDA nails the design because the Battleknight is intentionally blinded by its armor, and only by breaking it do we see their eyes again

[feral scarab]

Actually, here's a thing I kinda feel

[hollow finch]

also reading on the wiki, the Doom 3 Hell Knight does have eyes, they're just very small

[feral scarab]

TDA was a really missed oppurtunity to bring back classic Hell Knights, especially because of the timeframe

[feral scarab]

They're like side eyes lol

[quaint geyser]

Battleknight's gotta be the most "metal" design of the entire series aside from the Eternal Barons

[hollow finch]

oh true they should've kept them like that

[feral scarab]

I kinda think of it like a Bearded Dragon

Their eyes are more of a special sensory organ

[hollow finch]

I thought the eyes were those spots furthermost from their mouth

[hollow finch]

I'm not even sure what I'm looking at in this red circle. Are those ears?

[feral scarab]

It's a "third eye" of sorts

Isn't really an eye tho, but it's very similar

[hollow finch]

So it's some sort of additional sensory organ? I might never see bearded dragons the same way ever again

That feels so random

[feral scarab]

It really is 😭

It's kinda creepy tbh

Cosmic Realm type shit

[hollow finch]

I'm just wondering how it even came to be honestly

We're talking about evolution of species and whatnot, well guess what, that's a really good question on how it evolved to end up like this

[feral scarab]

Other reptiles have it as well apparently, maybe some mutation which was present in surviving Dinosaur era reptiles

A bottleneck if you will

[hollow finch]

I can see it yeah

[feral scarab]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

What an image, it's from above but it looks like a damn Demon

[royal marten]

@feral scarab please don't abuse the ability to send pics in this channel

[feral scarab]

Ok

[royal marten]

thank ya kindly

[lapis saffron]

Yeah but like that should be the case

Not clearly visible glowing eyes

[feral scarab]

I heard that the ARC Carrier features a map of the Blood Swamps relative to Nekravol, akin to the Argent D’Nur map in the main campaign. Is this true? And if so, are there any images?

[earnest flower]

it looks like that one tower from lord of the rings

[forest cave]

I can't check right now, but I will say the Blood Swamps are already heavily implied to border Nekravol, or be in the same region as Nekravol, since Hayden says they discard Nekravol's soul-waste to the Swamps.

[feral scarab]

Mhm, I think another telltale sign is the similar architecture and material use

The blood disposal can be found at the start of Nekravol II, so it's safe to assume it flows into some sorta river

[forest cave]

Yeah. It's funny that some Codex entries or artbook lines point to "layers" of Hell or whatever, because really the vast majority of Hell is implied to just be on a flat geographical plane in relation to one another.

[feral scarab]

True lol

The big exception of course would be 2016 Hell, which is prolly somewhere above Eternal and TDA Hell

[forest cave]

Even that is implied to border them, really.

Hang on.

[feral scarab]

So there is that distant city in the skybox of the Blood Swamps, which I've heard people theorize to be Nekravol, but it can't be. Nekravol has probably fallen at this point, but I doubt the other soul spires would. Besides, the lavalakes and ash would be visible from miles away

[lapis saffron]

it's whatever they choose on doing for that game

[forest cave]

Okay, so here you go.

Some of this is heavy speculation. At the very least we know the Great Steppe and Umbral Plains border each other, that the Umbral Plains came from Argent D'Nur, and that the Great Steppe very likely borders Inferno.

The assumption Exultia's Hell section is in the Umbral Plains is itself theory and only based on the fact it's accessible from Argent D'Nur, which IMO increases the likelihood the place was absorbed from Argent D'Nur. But there's no real evidence for this; it very well could just be on the outskirts of Nekravol.

That said, there's a very likely possibility that 2016's final level is in the Umbral Plains, given it's an absorbed Argenta place. That supports the Plains bordering Nekravol, because it's implied Wraith Energy is supposed to be transported to Nekravol.

Kadingir Sanctum seemingly being, like, in the sky confuses things, because this is not something it shares in common with most other Hell regions. It can't float above the Great Steppe, it's said to border them, and 2016's thing with the expeditions means that the Great Steppe, Kadingir Sanctum, and Inferno all must have been accessible on foot from each other.

In Titan's Realm / Necropolis, if you go deep enough you see an abyss below the ground (area leading to Icon of Sin), and I can't remember if you can see a bottom to it or not.

I do think that Hell likely has "layers" to it, in the metaphysical sense, and by this logic I presume that if most of Hell is in the middle, then Immora is "above" it; while the Harbor of Souls is "below" it.

[orchid sail]

Why do you theorize that hell levels from Doom 64 and Doom 2 take place in Kadingir and Necropolis respectively? I'm intrigued

[forest cave]

Doom 64 has a level called Blood Keep, and Doom 2016's Kadingir Sanctum is specifically said to also be called the Blood Keep.

Doom 2's Hell levels seem to be mainly underground, in sprawling caverns filled with lava and green slime. The Necropolis is said to be absorbed from another world long ago, and it's also sprawling caverns. I theorize Doom 2's Hell levels are actually recently-absorbed underground caverns from Earth, and thus we're exploring those places in Doom 2016, Hellified for so long they no longer resemble the world they came from.

[orchid sail]

So that's why there's an abandoned mines level in Doom 2... Interesting theory. But, what if only the Blood Keep level is part of Kadingir while the rest aren't? You take teleporters at the end of levels, and is up to speculation if they're to be taken literally or if they're "level ends here, Doomguy takes an uninteresting walk to the next level" point. So, maybe there's just a single stop at Kadingir

Or maybe not. But I totally dig your Doom 2 take

[forest cave]

It's possible but I prefer to assume Doomguy's excursions in Hell are mainly set in the same place, and he's trekking on foot.

[orchid sail]

Fair enough

[small herald]

Love it dude!

[raw pine]

<@&162901871168585728> maykr drone

[feral scarab]

<@&162901871168585728>

[fallen flint]

👍

[lapis saffron]

ngl i headcanon Thomas Kelliher is canon to the main doom timeline too

[coral thicket]

The "Codex"? What is this? Warhammer?
(Reference to the meme "what is this? Dark Souls?")

[raven ingot]

How long was the doomslayer in the sarcophagus for? Because I know that the maykrs only lived for 10,000 years or so but she was mentioned in doom the dark ages and she is going to be in the dlc also she was in doom eternal. But it was my understanding that leading up to doom 2016, the slayer was in the sarcophagus for millions of years.

[coral vale]

The Khan was using the Argent Energy she harvested from Hell to extend her own lifespan so it really could have been any amount of time

[forest cave]

10,000 years is only the DEFAULT lifespan of a Khan Maykr. The Khan from Eternal is the same Khan from the Sentinel lore; she started extending her lifespan with Argent Energy when the Transfiguration began ravaging the Maykrs.

It's very likely that all/most Maykrs by the time of Eternal have been alive much, much, much longer than normal.

We don't know how long the Slayer was in the sarcophagus, but it likely happened during the Third Age, and 2016 happens at the end of the Fourth Age. Ages of Hell are implied to be very long, possibly eons.

[coral vale]

my own interpretation, considering that the Father couldn't bring himself to kill his own creator, is that he probably felt Urdak didn't deserve to exist after what it had had to do, and when he left he did that to allow the realm to die naturally
instead it corrupted itself trying to survive

it does add a bit of irony to TAG1 where even if things had gone the way Samur wanted, the Father wouldn't have helped him

[sly frost]

Rip and tear until its done

[forest cave]

The Codex states the primary reason to have been because the Father was scared of his power being seized by Hell.

That said, I agree with the interpretation he was gonna fuck off anyway. The Father is not the leader of the Maykrs. He is their God. He was under no obligation to stay.

The way I see it, the Maykrs had descended into the same narcissistic, treacherous bullshit they sealed away Davoth for. The Father judged them and deemed them unworthy to remain under his gaze. So he had Samur take him away, knowing he would damn the Maykrs.

In a way that is their Hell, and it's more accurate to the original idea of Hell than the fire and brimstone shit. Before Dante's Inferno, Hell was a state of being, not a realm of punishment. It was life without God, livable and tolerable, but lacking his beauty he instilled in the world. Like suddenly the color has drained from it all.

Note that the discrepancy between LEADER and GOD can help explain Davoth as well. The idea that Hell's greatest foe was unleashed on them like a fucking Boogeyman by their own creator and they seemingly never acknowledge this is made more palatable when you remember the Nameless One does not LEAD Hell but EMBODIES it. He isn't a military leader at that point. He's a religious deity that Hell had better hope doesn't forsake them.

Especially since even in life he cared more about the Immorans than he did Hell and demons or whatever.

[raw pine]

hey mono, i mentioned this in isonkast a while back. semi-related and i wanted to tell you about it because i thought it was cool.

in dante’s inferno, the final layer of hell is an icy, cold layer inhabited by the evilest, or the most treacherous of souls. (iirc) judas is here, brutus, etc. besides them, satan is stuck in the ice here, and gnaws on judas.

satan is “trapped” in treachery as the ice stops him from moving around. he cant leave treachery at all, and is alone down there. treachery itself is also the deepest part of hell.

and so is immora in doom lore

what if, if we look at hell like the 9 layers, limbo (harbor of souls/resurrection) is the first layer, and the final layer is treachery, where, in a doom lens of looking at it, treachery is immora?

immora itself, according to the father and the intern, is the “deepest and most ancient part of hell.” i dont know if treachery is the most ancient part of hell in dantes inferno, but it’s definitely the deepest.

while satan (davoth) isnt imprisoned there, and is in the ingmore sanctum, he could still roam the realms using his spirit. its safe to assume he routinely visited immora.

just a thought i had

[forest cave]

To be fair, Davoth once WAS imprisoned there, before he was killed the first time.

[raw pine]

was he now? interesting. perhaps thats something to consider

[tired sand]

Yeah Maykrs did seal him away for the first time iirc

So yeah Soap, your theory stands and it's awesome

[forest cave]

It's an interesting comparison to consider. Doom takes certain bits of inspiration from Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost.

[raw pine]

iirc the 9 layers are a thing in doom right?

[tired sand]

The nine circles of death yes

Elina Richardson logs from Eternal

[forest cave]

Yes, correct. The betrayal began with Jekkad being sealed away from the rest of reality, Davoth trapped within. Then Davoth begins invading the Earthly Realms. Then the Father beats his ass and turns him into a marketable sphere.

[tired sand]

I do wonder if there's a 10th layer possibility in Doom's Hell

[forest cave]

I personally would not put too much stock in Elena's crap. It's very flowery and vague.

[lapis saffron]

Anything is possible in Doom’s Hell because whatever game comes next will change how it’s structured

[raw pine]

oh my god dude i wish that davoth talked to us in the holt. like kinda trying to say things to us before and after we fight

[tired sand]

I mean yeah she glazes Slayer a lot but layers being a thing is confirmed tbh

[lapis saffron]

I wish reclaimed earth was either cut or tag 2 had 5 levels

[tired sand]

That one Midnight's vid thumbnail...

[raw pine]

there are many

[tired sand]

No you don't get it. The lore speculation vid he made with a thumbnail where Davoth was interacting with Slayer outside Luminarium

[raw pine]

ohhh that one

i was thinking his sphere form talking to doomguy, similar to mimir

[forest cave]

At the very least we know that the Harbor of Souls exists on a separate "layer" from the rest of Hell, and that the same likely goes for Immora. I hesitate, however, to say all of Hell is comprised of "layers," because almost all of the major regions we visit in the modern games exist on the same plane and border each other in a conventional geographical sense.

[forest cave]

Oh I agree. I moreso mean the nine part.

[tired sand]

Maybe we'll check out more "layers" which are separated from the general domains in Hell in the DLC

[raw pine]

i feel like this is something that we need further clarification on through codex entries or dialogue. i do think the hell we visit exists on a geographical plane though, like you said, but the 9 layers should be clarified upon

[raw pine]

Hear Me… remember that concept art for the dlc? what if that layer was treachery? it wouldnt be immora, sadly, but still

also the dlc levels being the 9 circles of hell would be awesome and us having to backtrack to other layers to get stuff would be cool

[tired sand]

It can be Gluttony as well

There are two cold layers of Hell in Dante's inferno

[raw pine]

i hope that, if doom explores other mythologies in the series, maybe their specific hells can serve as the layers? if hell exists on a geographical plane, that hell could be the doom/christian layer. the third layer could be, idk, hel from norse mythology

[raw pine]

hugooo please

[wicked turtle]

Would the demons even know that Doomguy was powered by Davoth?

[forest cave]

I'm not sure, but he bears Davoth's mark and considering Davoth's got it tattooed on his back I assume it wasn't a secret he used it.

If you believe the theory I do, then the Slayer's Mark showing up near the Demonic Crucible is to signify that Davoth owned it.

So I would imagine some sort of connection between the Slayer and Davoth is known in Hell, to some degree.

[forest cave]

The way I see it, most of Hell exists on one layer. The Harbor is below. Immora is above. Perhaps Jekkad once had nine layers to it, but its unholy absorption of other realms has fucked the process?

That is an interesting thought. A dimension with nine "layers," but when it begins absorbing land from other worlds, all of it is chucked into the same "layer," something nobody has enough power to change. Eventually the other layers are abandoned and decay.

[raw pine]

it’d be cool to see “survivors” of jekkad in the future. an ancient civilization (or ruined) that took on many of jekkad’s customs and traditions

[quaint geyser]

I like to think Hell itself (like the dimension) thinks for itself and has different intentions compared to those who inhabit it, even those of great power

[wicked turtle]

I think they tried to do something like that with Urdak, but it was never really elaborated on.

[quaint geyser]

interesting, was that in the Artbook? I know there's lore from the artbook that's never explained in game but I've never read it or know much about it

[wicked turtle]

Yeah it was in the artbook

I’m pretty sure that the artbook also said something about Hell being alive, I don’t think that’s still canon

[tired sand]

Hell being alive can be interpreted in different ways honestly

[wicked turtle]

Also true

[quaint geyser]

DOOM 3 really makes it seem that way sometimes

[small herald]

It’s honestly hard to say. To some extent it might be. But I really don’t know lol. It’s an “extension” of the Dark Lord’s power (to some degree) at the least

[coral vale]

The guess I came up with is that Jekkad was the original layer of hell which became Immora, and all the others are realms that hell has conquered and absorbed
And maybe they gradually merge into each other, but probably not with Jekkad itself

So there might be nine sometimes 😛

It could explain where the Harbour came from (it's basically a classical underworld), why Jekkad doesn't seem to have been made to absorb dead souls but Hell does anyway, and why Doom 3's hell is a little bit different from the places the Slayer goes

[gentle crescent]

Hell has most likely absorbed more than 9 entire realms

[feral scarab]

<@&162901871168585728>

[lapis saffron]

guy who believes 2016's guardian is plutonia's guardian

[wintry perch]

2016s guardians are from another franchise as far as im concerned, they look so out of place and lame

the guardians of hell and their just some rocky formations with lil worms in them like, lamee

[lapis saffron]

i meant the one from the codex :p

[lapis saffron]

ngl i like the hell guards but i agree with them looking a bit out of place

sweet bossfight tho

[feral scarab]

I like how they resemble Bohrok from Bionicle, both in looks and in function

[coral vale]

yeah I think the realms gradually merge their geography together as the newly absorbed worlds become more hellish

so the longer Hell goes without eating another world the fewer layers it has

[winter oxide]

closer to Rakshi imo

[forest cave]

Likely correct. Doom 2016 implies that the floating chunk of the absorbed Deimos moon from Doom 1993 eventually fell to the ground and merged with it.

[feral scarab]

Going off the host yeah, but the mech suit like shape is what tells me Bohrok

[lapis saffron]

what are all the named regions of hell franchise wise

[forest cave]

Gimme a minute.

[lapis saffron]

Now that I think about it what am I counting as a ‘region’ :p

anyway I remember off the top of my head

• Devil-Hive
• Vassago’s Rest
• the ones from the mobile games
• Titan’s Realm
• Blood Swamps
• Immora

[cerulean vessel]

Harbor of Souls
Forsaken Plains

Kadingir Sanctum

Nekravol

[forest cave]

So we have these that I listed in the guide; for the sake of it, Doom II's levels and Doom 64's levels are in "The Great Steppe", listed as possibly being 2016's Necropolis and sharing Kadingir Sanctum respectively.
The Blood Swamps are listed in Nekravol. Forsaken Plains and Inferno may be the same place. The Titan's Realm is a smaller land within the Great Steppe! Same with Kadingir Sanctum. Doom 2016's final level is likely in the Umbral Plains.

Some others:

• Vassago's Rest as you mentioned, a lower ancient part of Hell.
• The Devil-Hive is another from Plutonia. I like to think it's a similar place to the Maledict's Circle (fan name).
• Inferno once held Babel which seems to have been a grand city. By Doom 1993 Dis is the city and Babel seems to be the wider area.

Some Codex-exclusive listed areas:

• The Burning Abyss (the wastelands close to where the Fireborne Barons come from, also where Eternal Stone Imps are made)
• The Sloughlands seem to be in Inferno; the Sloughs of Despair and Torment are mentioned
• Palace of Groans (mentioned in Book of Seraphs)
• Lake of Fire (mentioned in Doom 2016 Codex)
• Angrax (2016 Codex, has the blood pools housing a monster called the Bukavac)
• Citadel of Anguish (Eternal Codex)
• Sanctum Wastelands (a black desert, Whiplashes are here)

I'm probably missing a few places from some spinoffs.

[lapis saffron]

Resurrection/RPG II have “Abaddon” and “Gehenna”

[forest cave]

Going solely by the mainline games and no spinoffs, Hell is said to have six "inner circles," implied to have "nine layers" (what does that even mean?), yet most areas we see appear to border each other. The way I like to see it is just that most of Hell is a single mainland where most areas can be reached in a physical sense from one another, with the Harbor of Souls existing in a metaphysical sense below it, and Immora above it.

If you are to believe TDA's concept art, then the "Limbo" area from after the Harbor of Souls is said to be a place in Hell as well.

[lapis saffron]

Yeah I wasn’t sure whether I counted that in my head or not

My problem is that I have an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of everything tied to pre-eternal and a very limited knowledge of eternal onward 🥹

[forest cave]

I personally think the "inner circles" are probably just major areas in Hell, regions, like "counties." I personally do not think Hell is as big as some other people seem to believe; rather, I think it's very dense.

Like realistically I bet Hell, the dimension, or at least the "mainland," is probably like. The size of Jupiter or something. At least in a sense of where everything important is.

And as you keep walking you see less and less of anything important and just more wastelands, until eventually there's just a darkness.

[lapis saffron]

I was hoping there was a name for the “darker shores” in Sigil but nope :p

Perhaps I will headcanon “Sheol” (E5M2) as the name, or count “Abaddon’s Void” as part of RPG II/Resurrection’s “Abaddon”

[forest cave]

The idea of isolated circles or pockets in Hell seems to be a recurring theme. We get them in Plutonia and SIGIL, and Doom 3's Hell seriously evokes the theme IMO.

Reposting this.

[lapis saffron]

It’s pretty cool

[raw pine]

the name gehenna is a real place in jerusalem and it was used for some sacrificial demon stuff

just thought it’d be neat to point out

[lapis saffron]

Master Levels for Doom II has the “Sea of Blood” which is where Veavitdpoh’s cult lives

[lapis saffron]

yea I learnt that from the binding of isaac :p

I’ll never forgive Id for rejecting the Cacodemon cabal level for the master levels

smh they should’ve seen 30 years into the future and realised how well it’d tie into Eternal lore

[wicked turtle]

I don’t think demons can do math

[lapis saffron]

to use the least canon wad [excluding maximum doom] for info, Doom II’s Master Levels also put Hell into “circles” but going off the text it seems you can just walk normally between them so they are just basically cities

[forest cave]

I guess here's my ideal way to see Hell's geography.

There are six circles to the mainland of Hell. They are major regions, typically represented by an Archdemon or member of the Order. They seem to sometimes, but not always, border each other, and their geography seems to shift. It's not a permanent list, since Hell's geography changes.

My headcanoned six circles:

• BABEL, ruled by Erebus; once a grand city, now a desert with the city Dis at its crown. From Doom 1993. Also called the Forsaken Plains, seen in TDA. Has the Sloughlands. Its former glory has been usurped by Nekravol, to Erebus' chagrin.
• NEKRAVOL, ruled by (???); an urban landscape, with a capitol city of the same name, also featuring the Blood Swamps. Seen in Eternal. The Burning Abyss is on the opposite side of its border from the Blood Swamps.
• THE GREAT STEPPE, ruled by Rectabus; another large desert, with a sprawling underground cavern system. Seen in Doom II and 2016. The Sanctum Wastelands are here. Was once called Vassago's Rest, before a mysterious gigantic explosion reshaped the region, erasing all evidence of the mysterious creatures that once lurked beneath.
• THE UMBRAL PLAINS, ruled by the Icon of Sin; a giant plain of absorbed Sentinel land bordering the Great Steppe and Nekravol. Has the Well from 2016. Existed prior to Argent D'Nur, but was little more than a vast wasteland before absorption of Sentinel land reshaped the area.
• ABADDON'S VOID, ruled by Satan the Gatekeeper; an isolated pocket of Hell, obscure and ruled by a mysterious Order member. Also called the Devil-Hive. Place from SIGIL and Plutonia. The Lake of Fire is here.
• SHEOL, ruled by (???); another isolated pocket of Hell - once a part of Abaddon's Void, but seceded after repeated military failures of the Gatekeeper. Place from Doom 3.

@lapis saffron even though I personally do not consider Legacy of Rust or Final Doom canon, I like their ideas for Hell and like to headcanon their stuff as roughly there in the story.

[forest cave]

This comprises the majority of Hell; the territory of each Circle expands with more consumed land; the Order of the Six use their godlike powers to essentially divvy up land, which frequently causes infighting. Order members can die, but new members must be appointed quickly, as the Circles of Hell depend on a living Order member to channel energy through. Rectabus is replaced by her sister, etc...

Then you have the Harbor "below," on a different plane, which is supervised by the Hell Priests. It rotted away and died as Nekravol took its duties; the left-over land was shoved into Sheol.
Immora is above, separated from the rest of Hell by Davoth before his "death."

That's how I like to see it.

[dapper mason]

hell is also a amalgamation of many conquered worlds - perhaps even entire solar systems - that were absorbed into its maw.

[lapis saffron]

doom 2's master levels describe doomguy now working for a "Federation" so i think i will place those levels post-plutonia timeline wise which will explain why Doom 64 appears to have no UAC

since its story of expanding through the solar system links nicely with TNT and it also implies the UAC dissolved

so the current sequence of events is Doom -> Sigil -> Sigil II -> Doom II -> NRFTL -> Cabal Series -> TNT -> Plutonia -> Titan Levels -> Legacy of Rust -> Doom 64 -> Lost Levels -> maximum doom i guess lol

the Inferno Series and the random assorted other Master Levels don't really have a defined placement and can take place anywhere between Doom II and Legacy of Rust (especially given the fact that Inferno might not be our Doomguy)

[quaint geyser]

guys I dunno about you but I think Hell is bad..

[feral scarab]

Hell is pretty kewl

If I coul, I'd visit for a day. Nekravol citadel, the Blood Swamps, Ingmore Sanctum I guess, oh and the Harbor of Souls

[quaint geyser]

yea no shit obv lol, i mean like morally they're not the most kind or morally correct individuals around

[quaint geyser]

I'd want to visit the Necropolis or DOOM 3 Hell

[feral scarab]

Oh I was playing into it lol

[quaint geyser]

oh well that in that case, Hell fucking sucks they keep killing all my neighbors and putting all this flesh on my walls, its getting soooo annoying!!

[feral scarab]

I love endless torment and lava pools <3

[feral scarab]

Is King Novik dead in DOOM Eternal? I know TAG2 showed us that the ghost hologram thing isn’t only for the dead but, I still find King Novik’s encounter oddly spiritual

[lapis saffron]

i think the idea is that hes dead

[forest cave]

You can generally assume every Sentinel from the Slayer's past that isn't Valen is dead.

Ghost Holograms don't have to be for dead people, but let's be honest here: they were meant to be, until TAG2 forced us to understand they weren't to patch up a plothole.

[lapis saffron]

why didnt they just have valen be at the world spear lmfao

[forest cave]

I genuinely don't know. I could accept them wanting to explicitly say Ghost Holograms aren't ghosts, except Hugo outright said it was a fuckup on their part due to COVID. So what the fuck?

If Valen was always meant to be at Immora why did you put his "ghost" in World Spear?

He's already meant to be at the World Spear, it's pretty heavily implied he's the guy rallying the army for you.

[lapis saffron]

just change it?? it would be an easy patch??

[quaint geyser]

nah it was apparently just so crucial to the lore that he appears as a hologram, we just aren't smart enough to get it

[forest cave]

The thing is the hologram is written like he died.

Like, I can step back and go "Canonically the hologram's just there to give the hammer to him. Valen's out there doing something else." But on an objective level this is playing patch-up.

The hologram scene is written as if Valen is now dead and at peace because his son is at rest.

[quaint geyser]

maybe they wanted to have their cake and eat it too? like give us the emotional feel that he's dead but still have him be there in the finale? I dunno. there could've been much more to that scene and it honestly feels like they only made him a hologram to theorybait

[forest cave]

Yeah it's just weird. Could've just had Valen there to give you the fucking hammer.

[coral vale]

I mean, Hell is an afterlife so I could just believe that Valen and the whole army in Immora are all ghosts
but if that wasn't the intention it is weird that they never changed the scene

[forest cave]

Well, Hell most likely isn't naturally meant to be an afterlife.

Like, souls go there when demons kill them - but that's not normal. It's Hell's magic bullshit.

Most likely in Doom if you're just a random Sentinel who dies falling down the stairs, you simply die and that's that.

[coral vale]

if the evolution of this Hell parallels the sorta evolution of real-world religions and mythologies, you could make a guess that it conquered and absorbed the actual underworld (of which the Harbour seems to be a part) in order to usurp its function and control its abilities

maybe there was even more than one underworld before Hell took over them all

[raw pine]

perfect time to bring in other mythologies just saying. maybe those could be the earthly realms that the codex talked about? each one inhabited by different pantheons. doom zeus, doom odin, doom aesir, doom pangu

Hugo Please…

[forest cave]

I'm neutral on those ideas. I will say I'm vehemently against any scenario where humans naturally go to Hell when they die in Doom. I think that notion seriously cheapens the story, and I really dislike that Hugo ever implied it when it's outright contradicted by the games themselves. And also just. The basic concept?

Souls going to Hell should be an aberration, something Hell's magic causes when they invade.

[coral vale]

I guess I agree with the idea generally that going to hell should be unnatural, but I'm okay if it's like... Hell has manipulated the fabric of reality to make it to happen to everyone anyway
'cause that's like story stakes, that's something Doomguy can fight the demons to prevent or to fix

[forest cave]

My issue is mainly: why even invade, then?

[coral vale]

increase the death rate

[forest cave]

There are many Earthly Realms and billions of humans. If Hell receives a steady, passive income of souls from mortal deaths, they have no need to invade places; further, Doomguy's efforts to stop their invasions are literally always fruitless. There's no saving anyone; the conflict is essentially pointless other than TAG2.

[coral vale]

my interpretation of what happened in Eternal was that Urdak needed so much energy that the passive supply of souls wasn't enough anymore

and so Hell is going through harvesting all these worlds like clear-cutting the amazon

there's lots but eventually all the mortal life is going to run out

[forest cave]

Personally, here's how I see it: There is no afterlife in Doom, at all, and people who die normally just cease to exist. The thought of this terrifies many mortals; it terrified the Immorans, it terrified the Sentinels. The Sentinels developed Ghost Holograms as a way to cope with it, by having their people figuratively "live on" through AI copies. The Immorans, well, we know how that went.

Any instance of souls persisting after death is an abomination. Urdak promised it to the Sentinels and it was only made true by their people being turned into soul juice to power their land. It's an act against nature, something Hell constantly defiles through their invasions; their nature dictates that anyone killed by a demon will manifest within Hell.

To me this makes the most sense, given the thematic similarities between the old Jekkad shit, the Sentinels, the Maykrs, and even modern humans. All of these factions try to avoid death at some point or another and it literally never goes well. Even for Doomguy, he has become functionally immortal, and it fucking sucks because he's been forced into the tragic role of ultra-violent rage golem for basically eternity.

The only peaceful path is to accept the finality of death and embrace the value of the life you have. Trying to bypass it just makes life worse.

[coral vale]

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation
'cause it implies that the Slayer, being basically immortal, is going around deciding what fate is best for other people

even though he's not going to have to deal with that fate himself

I'm not sure I would like that version of the character

[forest cave]

Well, yes. He definitely does this either way. In 2016 he doesn't give a fuck what happens to Hayden or Olivia or anyone, and he deliberately destroys the Argent Filters knowing full well he might be dooming humanity. But he still does it, because he is very firm in his belief that stopping Hell is more important than anything else.

Better for humanity to go extinct naturally then to become a harvest for Hell to gobble up.

[coral vale]

yeah but that hits a little different if he's knowingly deciding that they don't get an afterlife at all

[forest cave]

I mean, the only afterlife they're gonna get is being thrown into an eternal torture chamber until their flesh turns into demons and their soul becomes ethereal gasoline for said demons and also a bunch of robots cosplaying as angels.

I think the Slayer does not care about the moral implications of deciding what's best for others. TAG1 displays that best. The Father was a benevolent entity who genuinely, truly just wanted to help everyone, and we know from the Codex that bringing him back would have likely made the conflict with Davoth much easier. But the Slayer doesn't care about this; he knows he is essentially committing genocide against the Maykrs. And he's fine with that, because they had their chance and they ruined his life with it, and the Father's arrival means giving them another chance, and he'd rather just do all the hard work himself.

[coral vale]

which is why I don't really agree with that version of the cosmology
I don't really want to be in the role of the person who decides for you what your soul does or doesn't get

it just feels a bit... icky?

[forest cave]

I think from my perspective it's less that the Slayer is choosing for people here and moreso just returning things to the natural way it's meant to work. What truly happens to people after death is beyond what he or any mortal can know; what matters is that whatever it is, Hell is fucking with the process and doing unspeakable shit to people even after death. The Slayer is obligated to stop this. Whatever happens to people after death in the natural sense is irrelevant.

[coral vale]

that's why I prefer the idea that different underworlds existed and Hell subverted their role

but I guess it's just different ways of looking at the universe in general 😛

[wicked turtle]

Call me stupid, but I never thought that was how it worked. I saw the people in cages in that first level on the Hell barge and thought that was how Hell got people. I thought they caught em, put em in cages, and shipped them back to Hell through the portals.

[coral vale]

either way I like the idea that Urdak was going to eventually exhaust the multiverse's supply of souls
it makes the stakes of Eternal even higher
'cause then Urdak is going to die one way or another and the only question is do they take everybody else with them

[forest cave]

I also thought this at one point and it would be the easiest conclusion to make if not for a specific line in the Codex.

History of the Sentinels XI:

The truth had been uncovered, that all beings who found their end by the demonic horde would become a vassal of the Hellscape, their flesh in time twisted into the very demons we fight, their souls extracted to create the Essence that powers their world...and ours. The victims were the enemy, and the enemy would become us.

It's not totally clear if this is something demons just do or if it's the result of some sort of ritual. Eternal mentions the Blood Ritual often, as some sort of ongoing spell that is upkept by the continued presence of the Deag; it doesn't say what the Blood Ritual does, but I don't believe it's just to keep demons coming, because the Super Gore Nest accomplishes this on its own.

Thus I'm inclined to believe Hell typically uses the Blood Ritual as a spell they cast on worlds they invade; the spell cursing its inhabitants to be sucked into Hell when they are killed by Hell's hand.

We only really see the process ourselves once, in TDA, when Doomguy dies. It's not really a reliable depiction though; Doomguy isn't killed by a demon yet he goes to Hell anyway, and the Harbor is seemingly defunct by the time Eternal rolls around.

[dapper mason]

regarding the sentinel ghosts, i see it as like Superman encountering his daddy in the fortress of solitude. Dead, but still has info stored and runs on some tech we can't understand.

[wintry perch]

^

like, yeah I'd rather go to sleep permanently than have to pick the abominations that are the possible Doom afterlives

[coral vale]

I expect they're either gathered in the cages to be slaughtered later, or they're already dead and their souls manifest within these little "pieces" of Hell

[raw pine]

i still just cant stop thinking about this. it’d explain a lot about some of the naming conventions in hell. for example, erebus is a god in greek mythology (iirc) that came before the titans and zeus. im gonna be just mentioning all of the greek ties i thought of

the titans themselves are said to come from another world, until they were overwhelmed and corrupted by hell. titans… are also a thing in greek mythology, the most famous probably being cronos, the father of zeus, and gaia, the personification of the earth.

dark ages has a sort of “security guard” in the harbor of souls that the slayer kills before going on the ferry back to the mortal plane. in greek mythology, charon transports souls across the river styx, and uses a boat that sometimes is depicted with skull(s) in front of it. just like how doom uses different names for characters, (ex. cthulhu = the old one) maybe that represents charon? the barge the slayer uses also has a skull on it.

im not saying that these are all clear and direct references to (greek) mythology, but it’s definitely present in the games. its never explicitly stated but there is either an earthly realm, or multiple earthly realms. and i would also like to bring up ‘book of the seraphs part v,’ where it says:

”Davoth's grasp for power bent the walls between realms. His growing hordes defeated many deputies and lesser gods the Father created. As they were absorbed by Davoth, his strength grew far beyond what the Father placed in him.”

who were these lesser gods? were they zeus? anubis? odin? thor? nüwa? njörd? ra? erebus??? what are these realms?

im not saying doom should completely follow something like ‘god of war’ and have the slayer venture into other pantheons. what i think is that these pantheons that could have existed have been defeated by davoth and hell, and consumed into the land. we’d still be in hell, but exploring the ancient ruins of a long forgotten civilization ruled by those same lesser gods that the father created

https://tenor.com/view/mohgfam-odin-mohgfam-odin-odin-gow-odin-gowr-gif-27349907

but thats just a doom theory

[forest cave]

Something to note on Hell vocabulary is that it's implied human myths are inspired by Hell and Urdak; thus, it's very likely the name Erebus from Hell somehow wormed its way into human myth, and thus into Greek mythology.

But that's just a possible explanation. I'm open to the stuff you're saying.

[raw pine]

its possible. very possible. but it’s something that i’ve been thinking about for a couple of hours

[raw pine]

also some more greek stuff

• the whiplashes are very, very similar to the gorgons of greek mythology. despite the whiplashes not being able to turn people to stone like some gorgons, there’s still a similarity there. plus, this.

*Feared even among demons, whiplashes lurk in the shadows of the high priests, a living barrier between Prince Ahzrak and those who seek his ruin. Fierce and cunning, the whiplashes are the keepers of lore, shaping the fate of the damned with their wisdom. They are an insular sisterhood that endures the endless torment of Hell.

an insular sisterhood… the whiplashes themselves are a race. however, an insular sisterhood may suggest that some whiplashes are in a sisterhood, while some arent. (insular = isolated, detached) maybe some of them are, maybe all of them are. either way, a sisterhood of whiplashes is similar to the three heads of the gorgons themselves: stheno, euryale, and medusa. (medusa is a mortal, punished by athena and turned into a gorgon because of something relating to poseidon that’ll go unspecified. she still counts though) thought it was interesting.

• the cacodemons themselves are obviously a clear reference to the astral dreadnought from dnd. no surprise, and many doom fans know this. but this is what’s been in my head for a little bit.

Hunters of the Sloughlands, the Cacodemon lurks the bottomless and murky depths of Hell in search of easy prey. An aimless wanderer, the Cacodemon is mostly devoid of cognitive ability, sensory awareness, and otherwise commonly occurring impulses. Driven only by a singular desire to feed, the Cacodemon is likely to appear wherever there is flesh to be consumed, bringing with it an insatiable propensity for hunger. It is said that the Cacodemon bears some resemblance to the cycloptic titans of ancient Hell lore, leading Sentinel scholars to believe that the forgotten titans may yet live on in some disembodied form.

‘cycloptic titans of ancient Hell lore.’ when i read this again around the dark ages’ release, i thought that the cyclops titans were these cycloptic titans of ancient hell lore that the codex speaks of. however, it is very much just a reference to dnd. but the way it was phrased: that’s why i added it here. when we think of giants in greek mythology, we think of the literal ‘gigantes.’ but when you add ‘cycloptic,’ obviously thats talking about the cyclopes.

while the cyclopes doesnt have a specific average height, they’re pretty big. in ‘the odyssey,’ polyphemus, the cyclops son of poseidon, can grab men in his palm and devour them.

”That’s what I told him. But his ruthless heart gave me no reply. Instead, he jumped up, seized two of my companions in his fist, and smashed them on the ground like puppy dogs. Their brains oozed out and soaked the ground below. He tore their limbs apart to make a meal, and chewed them up just like a mountain lion—innards, flesh, and marrow—leaving nothing.”

while the ancient cycloptic titans of hell lore that the sentinels scholars mentioned was probably just a nod to dnd, it could give some sort of interesting scope into the lineage of demons, particularly the cacodemon. maybe the cacodemon evolved from the very same cyclopes from greek mythology, who were consumed into hell following davoth’s invasions of the earthly realms, to bring up that theory once again.

[raw pine]

if they were to evolve from the cyclopes, this explains their brutish, and savage nature. not all cyclopes are dumb. brontes, steropes, and arges, the sons of gaia and uranus, were cyclopes. they also were master blacksmiths.

homer’s polyphemus is just one of that race. we see more later when odysseus claims his name is ‘nobody,’ but thats a little off topic. polyphemus himself, however, is similar to the caco’s brutish and savage nature. and those blacksmiths kinda go away, killed by apollo. those cacos could have evolved from the idiotic, bumbling side like polyphemus.

obviously, myths are inconsistent. cyclopes have been depicted in numerous ways, and polyphemus may be the most famous cyclops of them all, even with his idiocy.

this is all just theory and speculation but its okay cause its doom related

[raw pine]

@short loom

so the theory that doomguy is bj’s great grandson or whatever is a thing that has never, ever been explicitly said in any doom game. this comes from a quote from tom hall himself https://x.com/thattomhall/status/958352500431572992?s=46

if anything, if you were to take classic doom and classic wolfenstein, that wouldnt be too difficult. however, keen being doomguys father or whatever would be a little complicated.

doomguy in the rpg games is iirc (or, at least doom 2 rpg maybe?) is name stan blazkowicz, so theres that

but the modern doomguy and bj blazkowicz are not related. it would make no difference if they were. its a fun theory, though. but until said otherwise, it doesnt reflect the character of the modern slayer. until hugo explicitly confirms it, the two are not related.

• 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚝 𝚝𝚘𝚖 𝚑𝚊𝚕𝚕 • (@ThatTomHal...

@Michael64084977 @romero The lineage isn't a theory. Fact. And I think you have one generation off, there.

X · Jan 30, 2018, 2:53 PM

[short loom]

Ah

[raw pine]

while tom hall did create blazkowicz, he doesnt work at id anymore. therefore, it doesnt reflect what the modern doomguy is.

[short loom]

I see

[faint cosmos]

Likewise doom and especially wolfenestein have been rebooted and timelines and etc. As of right now there is no true concrete connection unless the modern games want to do so

[coral vale]

plus if the modern doomguy is related to the most recent incarnation of BJ that would open some weird implications about the timeline that Doom 1 and 2 took place in

and if id wants to open that can of worms, like, I'm not against doing that
but I tend to think they'd rather avoid it. It would raise a lot of important questions whose answers would have zero story payoff, and it might restrict MachineGames unnecessarily

[lapis saffron]

JUST CHANGE HIM TO BE A GHOST WHEN HE LEADS THE CHARGE OR SOMETHING

[lapis saffron]

well it’s like

directly what 3 of the other games said so the modern games were the retcon there

so #thankyouhugo for saying that actually

[lapis saffron]

It would have to be the 3D continuity Wolfenstein

which is also the only one that ever gets connected via Doom II’s secret levels and Ultimate Challenge’s UAC final level

[lapis saffron]

yah I mean the old games treat it like it functions like actual Hell

[forest cave]

It was justifiable there because it's usually from Doomguy's POV and he is looking at Hell. It's a reasonable assumption for him to make.

[lapis saffron]

Well only the Doom II example of it

[wicked turtle]

<@&162901871168585728>

It’s in multiple channels

[royal marten]

yes yes

it usually is

It all gets deleted at once

[forest cave]

I like to think the Sentinels who tried to meet the Father were defectors. Maybe the Khan didn't want anyone to know about him, so she just framed herself as God, and the ones who learned about the Father were perhaps neutral parties in the Civil War, who still worshipped the Maykrs but believed the Khan led them astray.
Oooooh. Interesting idea for a side story:
The Seraphim, after creating the Slayer, secretly wanders Argent D'Nur, watching the Slayer's progress and garnering followers, creating a small sect of Loyalist Sentinel defectors, who decry the Khan Maykr's tyranny but still worship the Maykrs, spreading the word of the Father.
This order of worshippers gets big enough they spread across many Sentinel factions, secretly spreading the Seraphim's word, worshipping the grand, beautiful science the Father used to create the Earthly Realms. They are ordered to disseminate this word, each person carrying out a sliver of the Seraphim's grand design, not knowing his plan but knowing it is true.

His group are embedded in many Sentinel colonies. They guide history. On every colony, especially the ones on each planet, Earth.

Their group - the Union of the Almighty Creator. UAC for short.

Hugo give me the Codex for the next game. I'll write this and give you a cool UAC backstory.

Bam. Made the Seraphim twist cooler.

[quaint geyser]

no comment (but i want to)

[forest cave]

The channel is for commenting and talking, you know.

[tired sand]

Civil War peak subplot

[quaint geyser]

i really don't like the idea of the UAC being full-on evil man

like I just don't. It doesn't sit right with me

it's what made it stand out from other corporations in games, like Murkoff from Outlast or Umbrella from Resident Evil, those guys are straight up monsters. The I really prefer the idea the UAC actually wanted to evolve and benefit humanity and fucked things up in the process

[forest cave]

Is this a general statement or referring to my thing? Because my intent isn't really that the UAC would be evil. Or even that this is the UAC - just that the modern UAC humans have, has its origins in Sentinels that worshipped the scientific prowess of a machine deity, and over time that would eventually turn into the corp we see on Earth.

[native sedge]

Is it ever explained how doomguy pre divinity machine is clearly beyond peak human in feats and does better than entire squads of soldiers did

Or is it just plot armour lol?

As he is clearly not a typical soldier even in doom 1993

[forest cave]

He's a videogame protagonist, so the games take liberties in depicting him a certain way.

[proud loom]

don't forget Doomguy had a lot of training by Valen before Dark Ages so that's why he was trained so well

@forest cave do you kinda agree with this?

[quaint geyser]

yea I guess I took it as "the UAC were destined to become a cult from the very start!" I moreso like the idea of corruption from the inside, just like Hell's corruption of specific people. At first it's not apparent, but then the cracks start to peel

[forest cave]

Classic Doomguy survived gunshots and ran fast for the same reason Leon Kennedy can parry chainsaws with knives and suplex monsters - because they're fucking badasses. Canonically both characters are just normal humans in-universe.

[forest cave]

Eternal heavily implies Valen trained Doomguy, yes. You can see him overlooking Doomguy as he spars with another Sentinel in one of the Codex images.

[quaint geyser]

it's far more tragic to me, like the ONE time the mega corporation wasn't totally evil and things still got fucked up

[native sedge]

Ya i get that, but they could make a lore reason at the same time

Like for instance, the divinity machine only worked like that on him as he already had the dormant potential, and was already beyond normal human without the power up

[forest cave]

That's fair, I get that.

[proud loom]

ohhh is it the one you're thinking of in that picture? makes sense

[forest cave]

The problem with this is it betrays the point of Doomguy as a character.

[native sedge]

Oh i know, just be cool is all and is wishful thinking from me

[forest cave]

Doomguy was a badass because he was a normal human who rose to the occasion and wouldn't let a bunch of demons rip him apart. He's a badass human, and a character you can project yourself onto - it doesn't work if he was always a "chosen one" demigod or whatever.

[quaint geyser]

your interpreation is cool tho and I don't want to demean it (I know I come off negative a lot and I'm sorry lol) I just wouldn't want an entire retcon of the UAC's motivation. I mean remember that in the original DOOM they weren't even the ones technically wanting to develop teleportation technology, it was the Government/Military

[forest cave]

Doom 3 also shows us normal humans fighting and winning against demons. You can assume that in-universe Doomguy's fights against Hell looked a lot like how Doom 3 looks when you play it. It's just technical limitations.

<@&162901871168585728>

[quaint geyser]

was it another bot?

[forest cave]

Yeah

[quaint geyser]

dude how do these things keep getting in lol

[native sedge]

Samuel hayden sends em to distract us 😁

[feral scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/capa-pandu-stucapa-studiocapa-atg-gif-10949048042327825999

[wicked turtle]

He said the thing

[lapis saffron]

Has it ever not been tho?

Outside of like Doom 2016 and even there it has comically evil working policies

[wicked turtle]

In the classic games (1993, 2, 64, not including expansions or spin-offs) they were normal I think.

[lapis saffron]

This barely counts as canon but Quake 3 has the classic UAC be evil

[wicked turtle]

Well thats Quake.

[lapis saffron]

The originals they were more just grossly negligent

[lapis saffron]

Yeah but it’s ID writing about the UAC from Doom 1 so it’s not like irrelevant

[wicked turtle]

Yeah

[coral vale]

I don't think a great big megacorp should ever be entirely un-evil, but I did kinda like how UAC took a bit of a backseat in Doom 3 so Betruger could ham things up

I mean I thought he was hilarious
And apparently he agreed 😄

[wicked turtle]

Fair

[feral scarab]

It’s a different kind of evil

The UAC is definitely evil, just not collectively evil

The beginnings of the Cultist Division is where that kinda falls apart

I think the UAC being at all involved with cultists post 2016 is a bit silly to me, at least with Eternal’s UAC spokesperson

Although it is very funny, but makes Mars Core feel a bit inconsistent

They clearly don’t want him there, closing off the BFG 10k and all

Yet they have guards wearing the same attire as ARC soldiers, as well as likely being in contact with Hayden beforehand

Not to mention them fending off what is likely to be the Blood Harvester or something alike it, judging by the constant BFG 10k shots

Which would be a cultist vessel, which they’re connected to or? It’s very weird to me

[wicked turtle]

What is the "Blood Harvester"?

[feral scarab]

The spaceship outside of Cultist Base

[wicked turtle]

Ah

[feral scarab]

Maybe there’s some other Hellship it’s attacking

[quaint geyser]

Doom 3 UAC wasn't evil in the slightest, and Classic Doom's UAC was employed by the Military to create teleportation technology. The company certainly has problems but when u compare it to other evil corporations in media, the worst thing they've done most of the time is be out of their depth. I tend to generally prefer blaming individuals for the downfall of something, rather than just a label

by the time of Eternal it definitely is evil, but again that's because it was corrupted from the inside, not because it was always evil.

[lapis saffron]

the UAC consistently has evil higher ups i guess is more my point

the UAC is always negligent and also the mars branch is always ran by someone evil

the classic doom uac willingly sent marines to die instead of trying to rescue them so they could study their deaths so that's not a great look for them

An experienced veteran, he led the invasion of the demon-haunted tunnels of Phobos. There, he was betrayed by superiors who thought they could learn more from watching him die than by studying his reports.

[quaint geyser]

yea true. Like I said it's not perfect, but I don't like idea of the UAC being Murkoff or Umbrella levels of super-villain evil. Even then people like Betruger weren't evil until he was corrupted by Hell. In fact I think there's logs made by him in DOOM 3 showing how he was actually chill before everything happened. And Samuel Hayden (before the retcons) seemed more morally gray, at least to me. His intentions were in the right place, his methods were questionable.

[feral scarab]

I agree with the sentiment

I don’t like them being blatantly evil

I guess Weylan Yutani is where I like them sitting, that level of evil

[quaint geyser]

Yeah Weylan Yutani's a good example. I'm not saying they didn't do bad things, I just don't want it to be so black and white, that's boring.

[lapis saffron]

it's half negligent human higherups and half evil demon higherups

[quaint geyser]

that works for me yeah

[runic monolith]

Ya know…what if Davoth is the only evil Doom Guy we know because he never had a pet rabbit?

And a wife and child too I guess but that’s far less important lore

[wicked turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/honest-reaction-doom-cacodemon-gif-792118870890486214

I'm debating whether to ping M0no over this.

He's probably tired of talking about it.

[raw pine]

my headcanon is that if davoth were to have a parallel to daisy, it would be a snake

[wicked turtle]

In refrence to the garden of eden and everything?

[raw pine]

ayup

[wicked turtle]

Fair

[runic monolith]

Did i accidentally make something that qualified as fanfic? I knew i should’ve sent this in a different channel

[wicked turtle]

It might be true about Doomguy and Davoth being related in some way or whatever, but a lot of people have become tired of the "Daisy is the only/ most important thing that Doomguy is fighting for" joke.

[lapis saffron]

[runic monolith]

I should’ve guessed that. But tbh it feels like we have like 10 jokes and half of them aren’t even funny to begin with

[lapis saffron]

how do you know he didn’t have a big fucked up hell bunny

[wicked turtle]

It depends on who you ask I guess.

[runic monolith]

Well that’s prior to Jekkad becoming Hell so there wouldn’t be a giant fucked up hell bunny, assumedly

[quaint geyser]

Can't remember the artist, but I saw a piece of artwork depicting Davoth with a pet snake. It looked awesome, super fitting if you ask me

[forest cave]

All of you are wrong. Davoth's pet was an exact Immoran replica of the Intern

[lapis saffron]

kill it

[raw pine]

yess i remember that one. love it

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/worried-eric-tao-industry-anxious-troubled-gif-12874033980627219823

[wicked turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/always-sunny-frank-oh-my-god-i-get-it-gif-22328165

[proud loom]

wait really?

[forest cave]

No, I'm fucking around.

I'd keep him as a pet though.

[feral scarab]

The Imptern

[lapis saffron]

hugo is critiquing the waltz of the archdemons lore

[wicked turtle]

There’s lore?

[feral scarab]

Oh this is cool

Modern DOOM lore has an aspect of hyperdiffusion, which is not a cool thing at all but, I think it works in favor of the franchice by tying irl religions and mythologies with the places we explore

As I said in the Dark Ages chat, I love the inclusion of the Tower of Babel, and other similar corrupt towers

[raw pine]

i think it works in doom because davoth, urdak, etc are inspired by christian texts. in lore, the christianity in doom (which, is a real thing. idk why i mentioned that, but in eternal there is a street pastor) is implied to have derived from the maykrs. its just a long game of telephone and the words became scrambled along the way.

i wanna believe in my theory ofc but another one i thought of is that these texts originating from argent d’nur were scrambled too, like the christian texts. only, the people that rewrote them were from various different lands, like greece, scandinavia, egypt, etc. basically, they rewrote it into their own mythologies based on what they had from super ancient texts

[feral scarab]

Mhm

@quaint geyser Here is the codex page I'm referring to

I love the implications here, but I think the time it came out hindered the mention of Urdak

The Urdak lore was almost there

Even if this is referring to Hell

[quaint geyser]

seems less like an allusion to Urdak, more just referencing how Olivia sees modern Christian beliefs as false (which I mean yeah she isn't wrong in this universe but there's no way she knew about Urdak)

[feral scarab]

I think it's more of a retcon thing in a sense, the lore guys already had an idea of what kind of morally grey afterlife they wanted to portray

But yes, Olivia is quite tunnelvisioned

[lapis saffron]

sigh if only this didnt mess with Doom 3 RoE

good thing doom 3 isnt canon tho

[quaint geyser]

it is

[lapis saffron]

not according to hugo

[feral scarab]

Wait fr? Damn

I hope they still keep some of the demons from that DLC

[quaint geyser]

who cares

[lapis saffron]

me in this one specific example of the RoE ending

[lapis saffron]

well they can still use demons from it they had the vagary in tda

[feral scarab]

I thought that one was from the basegame 😯

[lapis saffron]

oh i meant doom 3 in general

[feral scarab]

Oh that's canon

Just set in a different timeline, with the same Hell (cuz dimension stuff I guess)

[lapis saffron]

like i said not according to hugo :p

[feral scarab]

I believe Hugo said this in the Nekravol stream of his Eternal playthrough

[feral scarab]

When did he say this?

[lapis saffron]

you'd have to pull up the date for that

[lapis saffron]

on the tyler mcvicker TAG 2 lore question stream tyler asked hugo how doom 3 fits in if it's canon and hugo was like "umm i mustve mispoke"

and then said that visually it's part of the brand but storywise it's not part of the continuity

[feral scarab]

https://youtu.be/-rOAE6zGKz8?list=PLSHdOA4o6T_cMZe8mOLyFMp_glmPQfS-Y&t=6408

1:46:48

[lapis saffron]

immediately after that he goes "oh well actually well, the reboot in 2016 it's really just a yknow a kind of celebration of all the doom games"

[feral scarab]

Well I'd argue that was in response to the part about Betruger's Castle and other references

A bit after that he responds again with a yes towards DOOM 3 being canon

1:48:24

[lapis saffron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRm1jxpyVr0

13:18

"YOu mentioned on a livestream that Doom 3 fits into the canon of 2016 and etc"
"It's tough maybe I mispoke"
lol

and then he says "doom 2016 is a reboot but it takes everything about the doom brand and puts it together, and then storywise it's connected to doom 64"

"lore-wise doom 3 went in a different direction with the main character, but visually it's part of the brand"

this is a more recent video than that livestream

[feral scarab]

Interesting

I wonder if there's been any more distancing from DOOM 3 or if it's become closer again

This was 5 years ago afterall

[quaint geyser]

i hope it's closer, there's nothing really wrong with it being canon

i'll always see it as taking place a few years before 2016, and on the same Mars

[lapis saffron]

i do enjoy that headcanon but i think u already know why that doesnt work proper :p

[quaint geyser]

the thing about DOOM is that it's always had contradictions. Even the manual of DOOM II completely contradicts the ending of DOOM I, ultimately it's up to you what you choose to believe is canon with this series. General ideas and events are set is stone, but other details are up to you, and that is honestly how I think DOOM should go about its storytelling (at least in terms of the world-building and continuity)

[lapis saffron]

well i personally think everything is canon of course

but i was talking officially here :p

[meager sand]

the marine definitely can't be the slayer but outside of that yea

it even has the doomguy mural

[quaint geyser]

obviously not lol, anyone who unironically thinks that is either misinformed or stupid. They don't even look anything alike

[lapis saffron]

i mean

they're not the same exactly but as for that last part

id software said on their website the protagonist of Doom 3 is meant to be the same character as Doomguy from Doom 1 and 2 and RPG

[quaint geyser]

oh really?

I guess it's probably retconned then

either way it wouldn't really make any sense

[lapis saffron]

well they mean it's the same character in a reboot (because doom 3 is a reboot)

[quaint geyser]

yea that makes sense, I guess the Slayer is technically that as well

[lapis saffron]

yea 2016 was meant to b e a reboot

[violet sundial]

Could the “beating heart of hell” hugo was talking about be the primordial black heart from the art of doom eternal

[lapis saffron]

reminder that doom ii rpg is canon 🫡

[winter oxide]

what am I looking at

[quaint geyser]

a race car

[lapis saffron]

destroyed SAM bot from Resurrection, which is a collectible in Doom II RPG

[winter oxide]

interesting

[limber geyser]

Would be nice if the Cutting Room Floor had more info on Doom 4

[lapis saffron]

@wicked turtle On one of the Doom Eternal playthrough livestreams Hugo was asked if Doom 3 was canon and said "Doom 3? Oh, um, yeah it's canon" (forgot the exact words but that's the gist) and then said "oh well actually well, the reboot in 2016 it's really just a yknow a kind of celebration of all the doom games".

later in a Tyler McVicker interview when Tyler asked him about saying Doom 3 was canon on that livestream Hugo said "It's tough, maybe I mispoke" and then clarified "doom 2016 is a reboot but it takes everything about the doom brand and puts it together, and then storywise it's connected to doom 64" and then "lore-wise doom 3 went in a different direction with the main character, but visually it's part of the brand"

[wicked turtle]

Yo I think at a certain point Hugo has to either explain what he means in more detail, or, hes just gotta go "I dunno". Like, hes a great dude, hes made made peak games, but hes gotta get his poop in a group, so to speak.

[lapis saffron]

I think what he means (without committing to anything so he doesn't irritate theorists) is that Doom 2016 nabs things from Doom 3 for visuals/easter eggs, but Doom 3 itself isn't canonical

A lot of people bring up the "multiple earths same hell" thingy but Hugo never actually said that, it was the commenter on the livestream he replied to, and as for classic and modern earth it hasn't been exactly confirmed or debunked what's going on there.

[wicked turtle]

Even if he does piss off theorists, it'd be nice to get a definite answer. And even if he does say something that pissed of therorists, some may just ignore it. Look at M0no and his three hundred pages of DOOM lore.

[lapis saffron]

Funnily enough the closest the series ever got to a "multiple earths same hell" type of deal was actually Doom 3 and the Doom RPGs, with Doom RPG II featuring several place names from Doom 3/Resurrection's Hell, and also Doom RPG II containing several collectibles which are battered versions of things in 3 and Resurrection from how they were left in those games

[wicked turtle]

Yeah

[raw pine]

<@&162901871168585728> possible maykr..

[wicked turtle]

Maykr drone inbound

[lapis saffron]

yeah i dont doubt that whatever hugo said about it would be ignored anyway lol

[wicked turtle]

Some people will go "its not in the game so I don't care" which is a thing I have done sometimes. I dunno. DOOM lore is strange.

[lapis saffron]

I'll do it if it's a statement he clearly hasn't worked out the specifics of, but if I was comprising a humongous (no headcanons) lore doc of my own I would have to take them into account

such as his primeval comments, i don't like them and he hasn't worked out the specifics yet but it's clear what he currently thinks about it and it's definitely got inklings of it in game

[wicked turtle]

I mean M0no does mention Hugo's takes, but he marks them in green, so that people will take it with a grain of salt.

[lapis saffron]

yea ik

[wicked turtle]

Ohh

[runic monolith]

These live streams are the worst ways to answer lore questions bc he’s saying off the top of his head and I know, from first hand experience, that shit changes in your head fast after a while.

And after Dark Ages, nearly half the codexes have made Doom lore almost impossible to process without getting a headache or reaching so far we loop back to E1M1

[lapis saffron]

also he's literally playing a fast paced high attention game while answering questions lol

like when he says "it's canon" he IMMEDIATELY processes what he said and says "oh well actually" because he just finished a fight

[quaint geyser]

this is why he needs to hire someone who can keep track of the lore and keep it consistent because he clearly isn't capable of doing so..

[lapis saffron]

hes not the worst at it

most of my issues with the lore come from deliberate retcons

[quaint geyser]

exactly. Like don't fuckin change shit for no reason, especially when it was already fine like??

[lapis saffron]

VEGA Father 👌
Samur 👎
Urdak 🤷‍♀️

i dont remember the other retcons off the top of my head :p

tree prophecy not coming true 👎 👎 👎

[runic monolith]

Tree prophecy? Elaborate cause that’s new news to me

[lapis saffron]

there's a tree in kadingir sanctum that whispers several things which predict the future

"Could he be demon kin, spawned from the loin of a grotesque infidel? Yet, the seal of the heretic binds him. His origin is as dark as his coming."
"The power held within the Crucible will punish man-born and demon kin alike. It will crush the divide. It will corrupt all realms. It will create the monster. It must never be found."
"Yet even as the Doom Slayer revels in the spoils of his war, another shall rise from the fires: a dark priest consumed by the Crucible. And even the Doom Slayer shall weep in his shadow."
"The heretic-turned-apostle Olivia, birthed of the dawn of our resurrection, by her hand we cross the divide. And for her tribute, she shall be granted the form of the Dread Widow."

[feral scarab]

Oh, that thing!

[lapis saffron]

• Doomguy reference? IIRC? It's just talking about Doomguy.
• Crucible foreshadowing.
• this is meant to be Samuel probably, but this never happened in Eternal
• foreshadowing the Spider Mastermind

[winter oxide]

we'll see about tree prophecy (and VEGA) once they will move on to doing Eternal sequel...

[lapis saffron]

"Yet even as the Doom Slayer revels in the spoils of his war, another shall rise from the fires: a dark priest consumed by the Crucible. And even the Doom Slayer shall weep in his shadow."
this seriously should've just been where they went with the crucible. heck, they could even have recontextualised "priest" to be a maykr reference before the retcon happened! but noooo instead samuel does NOTHING with the crucible in eternal at all

[lapis saffron]

i'd love for it to happen but lowk samur's arc feels pretty finished in TAG 1 and i doubt they'll do it anyway

[winter oxide]

tbh they're ambiguous enough to go with anything

[lapis saffron]

they put samur on a bus just in the rare case they wanna bring him back but even if they do i think the crucible prophecy was just early eternal plans that got cut

[open patrol]

Yo

[dusky haven]

It's all about Samuel Hayden. Davoth knows Doomguy is human, but Samuel would be an anomaly to him. Because Samur Maykr rebelled against the Khan, that would imply he has an allegiance to Hell, at least in Davoth's POV. The Demonic Crucible foreshadowing is setup for a future plotline where Samuel is consumed by it. The third line is also probably this future plotline

[lapis saffron]

idk the first one is probably about doomguy

i don't think samur has any seals of a heretic on him in 2016

also the last one is about olivia

[dusky haven]

His seal would be his origin in Urdak. Urdak too has sigils. The last one is obviously about Olivia, I was more so referring to just the first 3

[lapis saffron]

yeah but the seal stuff was from eternal and urdak wasn't properly drafted out yet by the time of 2016

[especially given samuel was a human and not a maykr when 2016 first released]

[dusky haven]

Gotta keep in mind that Davoth isn't a fan of Urdak. I don't disagree with you there, but it does work in retrospect

[lapis saffron]

if we look at these retroactively then 2/4 are probably just early eternal concepts that were scrapped

samuel had the crucible by the end of 2016 but eternal presents a dramatic shift in story direction with that

[quaint geyser]

Father was the only good retcon so far

like in every way I actually love that twistt

[lapis saffron]

Father was good because it was sort of the plan since 2016

VEGA is deliberately stated to be made out of a scavenged arcane bit of tech and is covered in symbols and sigils

[quaint geyser]

Samur sucks but The Father is dope. Like when I played 2016 I liked VEGA but he didn't stand out to me as anything more than cute AI companion

[lapis saffron]

if Samuel's human self didn't show up in 2016 I'd consider Samur a lot better

[quaint geyser]

The Father made me way more interested in him

[lapis saffron]

well actually i'd be more fine with Samur if his writing wasn't drastically different/worse lol

[quaint geyser]

I just headcanon them as two separate characters

[feral scarab]

Same here

[quaint geyser]

my headcanon is that Samur used Samuel as a vessel for his resurrection and slowly took over his concious during the events of 2016 and Eternal

[lapis saffron]

i'd love to headcanon that but it just doesn't work in my head when i try

i could go for some doctor who chameleon arch style shit i guess

[feral scarab]

Although, I do that for VEGA as well. I think it would be interesting if he’s more of a vessel

[feral scarab]

Same here, I like possession in media

[lapis saffron]

well thats just canon for VEGA he regains his memory when we plug him in

[quaint geyser]

regardless of how little sense it makes, it's world's better than "Doctor Hayden is the Seraphim! He's been with us the entire time!"

[lapis saffron]

IMO the intent is that Samuel's human body was just lab grown for him, given the weird blue humans in Urdak where one of the pods is empty

[lapis saffron]

fuuuuck i hate that line so bad

[quaint geyser]

like omfg have some respect for your audience ;-;

[lapis saffron]

when you hear hugo's movie takes you will realise why it's like this :p

[feral scarab]

I think it would’ve been a lot cooler if Samuel wanted to steal the Seraphim’s body in a sorta Ultron trying to transfer his mind into Vision kinda thing

Motivated by envy of the form. We already know he’s willing to give up his flesh once

AKA, him not actually being a seraphim

[quaint geyser]

yea I know, I'm not really a super hero fan myself so a lot of the directions taken with the modern games really doesnt sit well with me

especially when the original games were inspired moreso by stuff like Alien and Aliens

[lapis saffron]

finding out hugo hates tlj because of luke specifically 🥹 ouhhh

[quaint geyser]

he's based for that at least

[lapis saffron]

no that's his worst take

[quaint geyser]

actually yeah wait why did I say that

[lapis saffron]

REAL ONES know that tlj is bad but because of the other subplots being underbaked

[quaint geyser]

Luke was the best part of TLJ lol, i dunno all the Star Wars whinging gets to my head sometimes istg lol

[lapis saffron]

and that the luke/rey/kylo stuff is some banging star wars

[quaint geyser]

people don't like the Luke shit because it challenged their idea of the character, and they don't like that

[lapis saffron]

i have TLJ over TPM, AOTC, TFA and ROTS in my rankings tbh

[lapis saffron]

i cant dislike TDA's setting too much cause like it's just Army of Darkness if you think about it

the Doom lifecycle is just the Evil Dead lifecycle

[quaint geyser]

speaking of comparsions and I don't even think it's intentional but the modern trilogy also reminds me a lot of the Dead Space trilogy as well

[lapis saffron]

i need to get on dead space

[quaint geyser]

Isaac Clarke is just Doomguy without the superpowers, it's awesome

[lapis saffron]

i nabbed DS1R and DS2 in the sale a week ago (i know playing a remake before the original is evil but im sorry.. im sorry...)

[quaint geyser]

nah that's fine, the Dead Space remake is one of the better remakes cuz unlike the RE ones it doesn't cut a bunch of shit out

only things the original did better imo were the sound design and art direction

[lapis saffron]

Resident Evil remakes are EVIL

[lapis saffron]

yeah i know but im one of those people who insists on playing the original silent hills, resident evils and doom 3 first

so this is morally against my principles 💔 but im doing it anyway because i just dont have the time to play both lol

[quaint geyser]

yea obviously. I made the mistake playing the RE remakes first, never doing that shit again. Influenced me to make sure I play the old dooms before the new ones (tho I did skip DOOM 3 initially, sinful i know)

[lapis saffron]

i genuinely do not get people who hate forced camera angles and tank controls

oh gee when you press forward your character moves the direction they're facing.. what an impossible concept..

[lapis saffron]

RE2 Remake is p good all things considered (even if I prefer the original's genre), but RE3 Remake is some hot ass lol

[quaint geyser]

I got used to it relatively quickly too yeah I don't really get it. Weirdly the game where tank controls felt the most clunky for me was RE4 OG lol

[lapis saffron]

i love old RE and SH camera angles

it's like playing a horror movie don't know why the remakes abandon that

[quaint geyser]

the gameplay's usually still good in the remakes (mostly) but I just don't like how they look a lot of the time. RE2 remake especially is just so grey

[quaint geyser]

that circling staircase in SH1 is the best example of fixed camera angles, you can't pull that shit off in over-the-shoulder

[sage shore]

Keep on topic please

[lapis saffron]

it would be cool if the series were to revisit the classic era and add a demon running the uac

given how 3, the rpgs, and nudoom have Betruger, Guerard and Olivia

Quake III already implies the people running the UAC in classic doom were fairly immoral characters

[stable falcon]

i liked re3r initally cause i had never played og 3, and i played og 3 finally this year and jesus christ did they fuck that up

[royal marten]

#general chat please. This is for the Codex and Doom Lore

[brazen minnow]

what do yall think about my doom games collection

[brazen minnow]

sadly cant get dark ages since my 2019 PC is too weak

[stoic hare]

Did Doomguy die after the titan fight in Taras Nabad?

[vague orbit]

How did you come to that conclusion?

[stoic hare]

I didn’t someone else did

[vague orbit]

Who

[stoic hare]

They also claimed he died after the divinity machine

[vague orbit]

Who is they

[vague orbit]

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Codex

[stoic hare]

Some guy on instagram I’m debating. I just need to verify his claims.

[vague orbit]

Reading is a good form of verification

Read, forget everything others tell you about the lore, read and interpret for yourself

That way you won't get confused

[wicked turtle]

He ran out of extra lives

[stoic hare]

Yeah but just to be clear he did not die after the titan fight or the divinity machine, right?

I don’t have time rn to look through the codex

[vague orbit]

No, he didn't die.

[final spire]

I think what's supposed to have happened is like
Didn't the dark lord have something to do with the divinity machine? And like. Since he died, the enhanced strength doomguy had went with him.
He just collapsed because it was him crashing after the MILLENIA long high. A weaker man actually WOULD have died.
And they put him in the coffin to preserve him, while still granting him his rest.
This is just what I thought happened, frankly I hadn't actually had anyone else's thoughts on it so I could have gotten any of this wrong.

Even if I did misremember the dark lord's involvement with the divinity machine, he SAVED THE WORLD after untold years.
I haven't played dark ages so I don't know if he had a chance to sleep at any point during that game, but I know he PROBABLY hadn't slept since that game, excluding the imprisonment in the demon coffin after the temple fell on him, or his well deserved rest among all the life spheres post TAG2.

[lapis saffron]

yeah it's basically that

[wicked turtle]

In Dark Ages, the codex says that titans are slaves and were corrupted when the place they lived was taken by Hell. What does this mean for Maligog? Did he just escape enslavement?

[stoic hare]

Speaking of those life spheres did we ever find out who exactly are tied to those?

Ik they’re like other primevals or something

[lapis saffron]

We don’t have any exact names

[raw pine]

@winter pilot so forgive me, but im not 100% sure on my info. this is going to be coming off the top of my head.

the “ancestors” that you said are called the “ancestrals.” iirc, they were the first creation of the wraiths, spoilers for the cosmic realm, do not click if you arent there/dont know ||which are descendants originating from that realm.||

the heart in ancestral forge is literally the heart of an ancestral. you see them in the abyssal forest, or at least, whats left of them. the big dragon guys

[winter pilot]

wont click that spoiler cuz im not there yet
and lol didnt notice the dragon guys

[raw pine]

“First came the Ancestrals, feral creatures invigorated by the magic of the Wraiths. They grew to enormous heights, mighty behemoths who waged war with each other for years untold. Their battles tore the land asunder and destroyed all creation caught in their wake. The Wraithcall continued to spread across the land and soon the Argenta emerged from the steppes, our souls stirred into form by the power of their breath.”

[lapis saffron]

this is like the most useless spoiler ever lol

[raw pine]

“The Sentinels built the Ancestral Forge around the remains of an Ancestral called Eligas the Wise, who was struck down with a colossal blade during a battle with Tharok the Mighty. Within the forge, the Sentinels extract Eligas’ blood and distill it into arcane fuel; this blood can then be imbued with energy from the sword to bestow otherworldly power.”

[winter pilot]

yea imma need to look more into this once im done w the game

[final spire]

I mean Maligog has the role of bringing people who passed the 3 trials to the life spheres, which despite being within the blood swamps, retains an air of sanctity.
He might actually also be enslaved, just by the maykr's instead of the demons, and that could be why he hasn't been corrupted.

[lapis saffron]

the clarification of the spoiler tells you the spoiler 😭

[winter pilot]

i love doom lore but also dont want to spoil the game just yet

[final spire]

He does at least get to nap a LOOOONG time though

[winter pilot]

i have a LOT of questions tbh

[raw pine]

shhh

its okay

[final spire]

Hey it would tell you more if they didn't spoiler it at all

[winter pilot]

first tho- when they refer to the khan maykr is it the same khan maykr that we see in eternal? I'd be inclined to think so since it looks like the same person that we see in the flashbacks

[raw pine]

indeed

same khan, different time period/game

[final spire]

I'm thankful at least 'cause the only thing I know about the cosmic realm is that it's a big thing in dark ages and that it probably means they're gonna make a quake game between now and the next doom game

[winter pilot]

and linear time doesnt really exist here does it
ie asking "how longa go was this" isnt answerable

[raw pine]

its iffy lmao

[lapis saffron]

the cosmic realm is prolly a little inspired by quake but hugo said it's not quake

unfortunately it seems modern id do not care about quake

machinegames are the most likely to give us any more quake stuff :p

[raw pine]

we dont have an exact sort of date but it is likely hundreds, thousands of years before eternal

and 2016

[wicked turtle]

I dunno, it seems like he just sleeps most of the time

[lapis saffron]

well unless they beat his trial hes not gonna need to do much

[winter pilot]

from what i know, weve got doom 123 being ~2100/2200 or something, then doom 64 he gets stuck in hell, we see flashbacks in eternal of him getting picked up by the maykrs, then we see whatever happens in TDA, then at some point he takes a big nap, then 2016, then whatever, then eternal, then tag, then another nap (perhaps permanent)

[wicked turtle]

Fair

[raw pine]

seems right to me

[final spire]

I mean hwo wouldn't want that

[raw pine]

not permanent though

the slayer will rise again one day

[winter pilot]

but 2016 seems to be in vaguely not too far future earth/mars, idk if we have an exact date, implying that he got caught in some time loops or went back in time or something between 64 and 2016

[lapis saffron]

i like to think the classic doom games are in the 2020s like the snes guidebook

[final spire]

Respectfully, they have plasma guns

[winter pilot]

ooo "return our god to us" who is she talking about 🤔
boutta find out, dont answer

[lapis saffron]

iirc doom rpg has the uac be established around the 2020s too

[winter pilot]

wOW that guy is lanky

[wicked turtle]

Yeah. I know the original ID guys say it can take place whenever, but the only date we’re ever given is the 2020s.

[winter pilot]

nvm im NOT bouta find out dammit

[raw pine]

no one knows

[lapis saffron]

oh nvm the doom rpg website says "Founded in 2015" for the UAC

[raw pine]

perhaps we’ll never know…

[lapis saffron]

funnily enough doom rpg has doom 1 as a canon game within the game

like some scientist finds a copy of doom 1 from 1993 and says "wow this is just like real life" lmfao

[winter pilot]

also at this point- davoth is imprisoned somewhere after the father struck him down or something??

[raw pine]

indeed

[winter pilot]

i miss vega

[raw pine]

WAOW!

[wicked turtle]

Yeah weird plothole that the ID devs left in the game.

[raw pine]

rpg just does its own thing its hilarious

[lapis saffron]

Doom RPG is basically just Doom 1/3/2016 tbf

[final spire]

I think davoth having his life sphere taken out is supposed to be way before dark ages though I may be stupid

[winter pilot]

how do i see my progress on the weapon mastery thingies
ah nvm got it

[lapis saffron]

i mean eternal had doom 1 and 2 as games, easter egg games ofc but this thing in rpg is also an easter egg

[raw pine]

This is true.

[wicked turtle]

Yeah, it’s way in the past.

[lapis saffron]

so when you think about it... CLEARLY it was foreshadowing eternal

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/surprised-surprise-wow-woah-black-gif-5883371

[final spire]

You can check it in the arsenal page or in the missions page alongside the level based missions, or the event xp stuff

[raw pine]

are you talking about eternal

[lapis saffron]

pretty sure theres a dude called Commander Keen in RPG 2

[final spire]

Yeah
In 2016 I think it's just the arsenal page though it has been a bit since I played it

[lapis saffron]

wait no it's Wolfenstein RPG that has a dude named "Commander Keen"

[raw pine]

lmao i think i heard of this before

isnt it like a middle aged guy that barely resembles the big keen

[lapis saffron]

yes lol

[final spire]

"yeah we turned satan's pet into a computer program" - Actual plot point from rpg 2

[raw pine]

[final spire]

I need to actually play the doom rpg games not because they're plot relevant, because they were on like 2000 something iphones but like they ARE original stuff

[raw pine]

its playable on pc

[lapis saffron]

but the rpg continuity also follows the "idsoftware family lineage" thing

[raw pine]

i wanna try anda somehow get it on my phone

[final spire]

Oh damn for real

[lapis saffron]

so like am i meant to assume that commander keen is named after that guy lol like billy blaze was so inspired by his dad's stories or smth

[lapis saffron]

it is but we're not allowed to talk about it because it's a fan port and counts as piracy

[final spire]

Ah
Ok that checks out, my b for asking

[raw pine]

tom hall…

[lapis saffron]

i guess bro

[raw pine]

“new quake this” “new wolfenstein that” new keen game when dude 💔 look at him

[lapis saffron]

they tried to make a new keen but it was sloooop

tbh id love a new keen game but i also dont feel like i need one yk

[raw pine]

cancelled right

[lapis saffron]

new wolfenstein i mean theres a new one soon and after that im content

need more quake tho

i hope doom rpg, rpg ii and resurrection get official support again

and mighty doom but that would be harder legally and in general

[raw pine]

mighty doom has been cast into osseus

i think quake and rpg has the biggest chance to come back though. it even got a small spotlight on a stream once, so they’re definitely aware about it. i do hope they make it easier to access to all doom players

[lapis saffron]

rpg website is soo cool

[raw pine]

resurrection has also joined mighty doom probably

[raw pine]

ooo this is cool

[final spire]

I thought the UAC was supposed to be a parody-

[raw pine]

last pic looks a little like tom cruise +

“operate within the bounds of international law” i think the uac is one of the few companies that have broken interdimensional law lmao

[lapis saffron]

yeah lmaoo

i imagine thomas is probably the founder in classic/2016 too

for 3 he's the founder in the novels by the same writer so i assume that applies too, same with ian being the current ceo

[raw pine]

i want funny stuff about the uac because working there sounds terrible given what we know lol

[lapis saffron]

better than working fast food

[final spire]

Ok I will be the first to insult mcdonalds so hard that their ancestors will feel it, but at least the only demon at mcdonalds is whatever abomination they attempt to pass off as cheese.

[raw pine]

oh dude i’d kill for an office-style doom show in the uac

[final spire]

I think the season finale of the last season would be pretty obvious

That's not a reason to not make it, it's just true

It would also probably help tone down the censors, 'cause I mean what are they gonna do
Have a portal open up and then black screen?

And by "tone down the censors" I should clarify I mean getting the censors to shut up

[wicked turtle]

It’s just Samuel and Olivia arguing

[lapis saffron]

samuel, olivia, betruger, guerard and ian main cast

[final spire]

I haven't actuallh had anyone else's thoughts on him but like cmon
Let internguy on the cast

[feral scarab]

I like him a lot, but I find some of his dialogue a bit bad...

His best appearance was in ARC Complex imo

[final spire]

Oh he's cringy but I think that's part of the charm

[stoic river]

so that WAS him

[feral scarab]

Well, there's the in universe cringe and the story cringe

I think the Blood Swamps introductory scene with Samur and him was a bit off

But his lines in The Holt and later are pretty good

He fills the role of Samuel Hayden, or VEGA

[final spire]

Yeah fair enough though I was more thinking of him bumping into the railing 'cause like
Of course he's fanboying out, he met his world's equivalent of superman

I know doomguy can't fly but like strength wise

[lapis saffron]

I do not like him :(

He has the worst line in the entire game 💔

[wicked turtle]

Yeah he should be in the cast.

[final spire]

I'm sorry but all I could think of when you said that was the one npc line from doom 3 of the guy saying "move your fat ass"

[wicked turtle]

I also feel like VEGA, being in control of the facility, should be able to butt in on conversations, wether through the intecom or the computers, and be a part of all the dumb shit that happens.

[final spire]

I don't mean as a main character anyway I meant more like the office coffee guy, he is just called "intern" in the games after all, and he moves off of mars on like the series finale to explain why the inside of his head isn't all over 4 counties

The end of the series finale being the demon invasion.
Doesn't really matter how many episodes there are, just that the last one is. that.

[quaint geyser]

C'mon aside from that one line he's fine

[lapis saffron]

Ehhhhhhhh

I liked him in ARC Complex .💔

[quaint geyser]

He's helpful!

The worst you can be as a character in this series is useless

[lapis saffron]

the worst thing you can be as a character in this series is annoying

[quaint geyser]

I didn't find him annoying ;-;

[lapis saffron]

I find YOU annoying!!!1!1

[final spire]

Ok no it's this, this is the worst one you can be, because legitimately who remembers scientist who dies number 4 from doom 3

[wicked turtle]

Reminds me of this post

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2104850887

[coral vale]

Oooooooh, nice

[quaint geyser]

Sorry ;-;

[lapis saffron]

;-;

[opal isle]

It speaks

[quaint geyser]

I have no mouth

[blissful imp]

and I must scream

[opal isle]

Great book

[lapis saffron]

i actually really enjoyed it

[fallen flint]

https://tenor.com/view/am-am-ihnmaims-ihnmaims-allied-mastercomputer-hate-gif-3792826578129949285

[vague orbit]

Doom Slayer mind:

[wintry perch]

Doom Slayer when seeing the most non threatening, staggered zombie on 1hp:

[wicked turtle]

Doomguy waking up from the sarcophagus and seeing that the mortally challenged are allowed in UAC facilities

[raw pine]

doomguy

[wicked turtle]

Yes

[dapper mason]

maybe

[stuck jungle]

So is there a chance we might get the slayer's testaments as a full game

And like we STILL have no idea of what happened between 2016 and eternal with the Slayer so I'd be nice if we finally got that comic or just something

[wicked turtle]

They at one point said they'd do a comic for it, but I don't know what became of it.

[stuck jungle]

At this point they should just say the cancelled it and will reveal that in some other way

[wicked turtle]

Yeah

[final spire]

Comic is probably the best way 'cause otherwise like do they do a dlc for eternal that forward-ports all the 2016 weapons with tweaks? that sounds like a lot of work

[vague orbit]

The testaments cover the first age through the third or even the fourth, and in that time there is a lot of history

[final spire]

I meant the time between 2016 and eternal with this

[wicked turtle]

Plus, Dark Ages is already out, so to release a DLC for a game they've stopped working would be strange.

[final spire]

yeah and a dark ages dlc sounds like it would really not work for a campaign between 2016 and eternal

like "worse idea than going back to 2016 and making a dlc for that" type of idea

[wicked turtle]

Yeah

[stuck jungle]

I honestly kinda feel like they shot themselves in the foot for making DG's time in hell eons, like that's just too much time for just one game

[lapis saffron]

if they wait 20/30 years to do it then it's in style for doom :p

[vague orbit]

There's just no chance

[final spire]

If they went back to 2016 and made a dlc for that to bridge 2016 and eternal it'd be really weird, and they won't do it, but it would make infinitely more sense than a dlc for dark ages that talks about the time from 2016 to eternal

[stuck jungle]

Like they would really need to create a lot of stuff that is "doomguy fucks shit up in hell, trillions of demons die, repeat" and make every repitition of that premise feel like something actually new and interesting

And well that would probably be hard for an event that literally lasts eons

[wicked turtle]

Part of me does genuinley think that after they're done with all the sentinel stuff for DOOM, they'll do the in-between for 2016 and Eternal, and then they'll do something else.

[wicked turtle]

There's also that.

[vague orbit]

How long did it take the Slayer to eliminate the demons in Doom Eternal? I've noticed that in Elena's audio logs, it seems like a few months have passed since the Slayer appeared

[final spire]

If ID tried to cover the slayer's rampage it'd have to be like recalling the events, and then the slayer has bigger gaps in his memory of that time then a dementia patient (it was like aeons so I think it's reasonable in his case though)

[wicked turtle]

A couple of months, maybe

[stuck jungle]

Also like them making how he ended up in the sarcophagus so underwhelming

"Oh we just dropped like a temple on him and that's that"

[vague orbit]

I had spoken about this with a friend, it seemed that the war with the Slayer lasted for months from Earth's perspective

[lapis saffron]

i wouldnt mind if they had another team do a dlc for 2016 in like 10 years from now

like how doom 1 got sigil/sigil ii and doom 2 got nrftl/legacy of rust

(im aware doom 1 is a very special case)

[stuck jungle]

Not something actually cool like fighting all of the order of the six or somehow having had fought davoth himself before the ancient gods, no they just threw a building on him and that somehow knocked him out despite having godlike power for like what centuries? Thousands of years?

[final spire]

I mean they released a new episode to doom with new enemies like 30 years after original release so like I think it's not even that unbelievable for 2016 to get dlc. Probably not more than 1 though

[lapis saffron]

it's fairly unbelievable given how 2016 is coded compared to doom 1/2

and also that Doom 1/2/64/3's expansions were made by modders of those games whereas 2016 didn't really have that

*and also that those DLCs were made as bonuses for ports/remasters which 2016 is probably never getting because why would you do that

[lapis saffron]

they will never be done with sentinel stuff because they're never gonna bother to adapt the codexes :p

[wicked turtle]

Well I dunno about that one.

[stuck jungle]

I mean hopefully with that we could get a game on the argenta civil war and delving deeper into the societal, cultural and political side of argent d'nur

I've always wanted ID to really get us to know it and it's people

[vague orbit]

They called the writers and begged them to remove the Slayer from Hell's list of natural disasters

[stuck jungle]

Like you know how stephen king in It made sure you knew every block and corner and individual person that lived in derry? Something close to that basically

[lapis saffron]

characters r not current ids strong suit :p

[wicked turtle]

Well they're working on it

[stuck jungle]

They're taking babysteps

And like for something in a doom game besides the gameplay and music that's something

Im not expecting them to turn into berserk or tolkien level writters overnight but they have the sauce in them

[lapis saffron]

they did it pretty good in 3 and 2016 it's just gotten worse since

[stuck jungle]

Or like at least they get on he-man/heavy metal magazine level

[lapis saffron]

well TDA was better than Eternal i'll admit that

Kreed 💛 Azhrak ❤️ Witch 💜

Kreed is just Samur if it wasn't a hasty retcon so I love Kreed

[stuck jungle]

Azhrak is like everything i've been wanting out of doom villains

[lapis saffron]

a lot of TDA felt like TAG 2 but better lol

the final level and the enhanced azhrak fight felt like immora if it was better

[stuck jungle]

TAG SERIOUSLY should have been the eternal sequel

[vague orbit]

Cutscenes without black bars look weird

The first Titan in Siege first appears in front of the castle entrance and when it hits the Atlan, it teleports to the right corner of the map

[wicked turtle]

I wouldn't call Samur a "hasty retcon". There is foreshadowing in 2016.

[lapis saffron]

theres foreshadowing for the seraphim but samuel being the seraphim is a retcon

[wicked turtle]

That is what I'm saying. Samuel being Samur had foreshadowing.

[stuck jungle]

I still really dislike samuel being the seraphim and vega being the father

[lapis saffron]

other than him possibly being called a "dark priest" by the tree there isnt really any

theres anti-foreshadowing lol where they show him being a human

[stuck jungle]

Like man, they were perfectly fine before

[lapis saffron]

im conflicted because i think it COULD'VE worked as dlc were it not for the covid problems/them promising that it would come too early

but also i think davoth has enough on his own to justify a game

but i think it couldve worked were it being worked on for longer/had covid not happened

[stuck jungle]

Exactly

[vague orbit]

A lot, that wretch clearly wanted to get rid of the Father, he had built Vega and knew there was a button to save him, apparently, he thought the Slayer wouldn't do anything and would just let Vega be destroyed

[lapis saffron]

i mean yeah but samuel is also shown to be human in the same game

[wicked turtle]

I can't

[lapis saffron]

the UAC being cultlike =/= samuel being the seraphim was planned :p

in fact the UAC literally runs less like a cult in Eternal so what does that mean

ARC* the ARC* the

[wicked turtle]

VEGA was the Father copied onto an AI. The Father's life sphere was still in Ignmore's Sanctum. No harm actually came to the Father until Doomguy crushed his life sphere.

[wicked turtle]

That is the twist. He cloned a human body and hid his true one beneath the Atlantica facility.

[lapis saffron]

that was a hasty retcon and you know it lol

they had to make up the glowing blue humans in urdak to fix the plot hole of him being human in 2016

[vague orbit]

I think you're right, there was something weird about Samuel in 2016 regarding how he created Vega, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was the Seraphim

[lapis saffron]

VEGA being arcane was always true yes

[wicked turtle]

The UAC being cultish is a direct parralel to how the maykrs treated the sentinels.

[lapis saffron]

which was established in a later game

also isn't the chapel in 2016 in olivia's part of the complex???

[vague orbit]

Yes, but in 2016 the Slayer saves Vega
Samuel never mentioned that and pretended he lost Vega when he created the method to save him

[wicked turtle]

???

[vague orbit]

He simply let him die

[lapis saffron]

well yeah he believes it to be a necessary evil

[wicked turtle]

It doesn't matter either way. VEGA is not the Father.

[lapis saffron]

actually most of the "cult" stuff is tied to olivia and not samuel

[wicked turtle]

Olivia's division of the UAC is more explicitly a cult, but the UAC as a whole is still definitively a cult.

[lapis saffron]

yes because hell's corruption permeates most of it :p

the examples given in that message such as the chapel are in olivia's part of the complex

[vague orbit]

The Slayer transfers Vega to a removable memory unit (I think). Samuel knows about this because he created Vega and his systems, and he didn't mention it to the Slayer, not even Vega knew about it

What I was saying before was that the intention to remove the Father from the path was there from the beginning

This is part of what Samur wants, to be the one who leads

Although we wouldn't know this until they released The Ancient Gods

[lapis saffron]

and most of the samuel worship only exists because he literally cheated death which is why argent is considered so crazy, like he's only glazed once as "venerable" when they talk about him literally coming back to life

[wicked turtle]

Again, in parallel to the maykrs.

[lapis saffron]

even the 'tier' stuff is tied to Olivia "Team tattoos are a mark of your tireless work at the UAC, and can be requested by signing up for any of the Lazarus Wave case studies. Please contact a Tier 3 Advanced Weaponry Technician to fill in your application for a Pentagram brand today!"

[wicked turtle]

I'm not doing this\

[vague orbit]

And well, now I think this only reveals that something strange was happening with Samuel in 2016, but it doesn't say that he's the Seraphim

But it serves to connect with what was written in The Ancient Gods

[gentle crescent]

Wasn't that just implying that the believers were going to Urdak to become Maykrs?

[lapis saffron]

uhhhhh

[gentle crescent]

Uhh?

[lapis saffron]

idk that wasn’t really what I gathered

[raw pine]

i thought those were just humans that made it to heaven. dooms version of heaven: this is their afterlife

[forest cave]

Maykrs are built from Urdak's Singularity.

[wicked turtle]

DOOM having an afterlife at all is kinda iffy

[lapis saffron]

Nah Urdak is just weird

I prefer having an afterlife in Doom too tho

[forest cave]

I personally prefer there being no afterlife in Doom, but I'm not butthurt at the idea of there being one.

...as long as the afterlife in question is not Urdak or Hell.

I think Urdak being the real Heaven and it working like that is really antithetical to its themes and place in the story to begin with. To me the vibe wasn't "Urdak is Heaven," but rather, "Heaven is a farce; Urdak is what the farce is inspired by."

[raw pine]

idkkk i kinda like the concept of mortals going to what is supposed to be heaven ending up like that. like that is their afterlife. idk if its ever explained what the blue humans are but it’d be cool if urdak was trying to replicate what was going on in hell as a contingency measure if their operations ever ceased in nekravol; these humans being used as batteries to extract their essence

or these blue guys are in a literal ‘simulation,’ following urdaks techno aesthetics. maybe they’re in pain, maybe they arent. regardless, they will forever be idle statues of sorts, devoid of emotion

[forest cave]

Well like. Okay this is a bit hard to explain.

[raw pine]

semi-related but i like how this reflects the khan’s death where her angelic mask slips and we see an alien face

[forest cave]

I am not opposed to those blue things being mortal souls, under the idea that the Maykrs have pulled some fuckery to allow them to do this somehow.

What I'm opposed to is the idea that human souls just do that. Like they just go to Urdak and that's how it is.

[raw pine]

maybe urdak once was heaven? just like how humans are supposed to go there when they die. their purpose there ultimately changed as the khan took leadership and began to use them as batteries

however i prefer urdak being devoid of mortal life, populated only by its faux angels

[forest cave]

IMO a core thing with Urdak and Hell in modern Doom is that the presence of human souls being there, and their existence as an "afterlife," is unnatural; it's an affront to nature, something mortal souls are not meant to go through, instilled by Hell magic or Maykr technology, and all of it is to warp and desecrate our souls to serve as energy for them.
To me thematically it just feels overwhelmingly like that.

And I think that's aided by the idea of like. These realms predate the Earthly Realms, but they're physical. They may exist "above" and "below" our understanding of reality, but they aren't, like, metaphysically some other plain of creation entirely. Hell is habitable by humans, it apparently can be quantified in 3D space, and understood. The barrier to human habitation isn't some kind of metaphysical incompatibility, but 1) teleportation to Hell is a big fucking thing you can't just casually do unless you're magic, and 2) demons are fucked up.

To me it feels like if there's a "natural" afterlife in Doom, it wouldn't be a place the Slayer can teleport to and shoot monsters with guns in. If it's a physical space that can be filled and understood by human conventions, I dunno...

...I guess what I'm saying is, on a dimensional level, it feels to me like Hell and, say, the modern Earthly Realm are on "equal playing fields." The only real difference is size and age. Otherwise monsters can exist in both, so can humans, expansion happens in both.

So thus, I guess it follows that if there's an afterlife, it shouldn't be one of these places, but something above both of them.

[raw pine]

how would you feel if, say, the cosmic realm was an afterlife?

[forest cave]

Ehhhh... it fits a bit more, but I got the vibe the Cosmic Realm was something else entirely. Like, uh.

I made this a while ago to explain my view of Doom's cosmology.

If I updated it now to include the Cosmic Realm, it wouldn't even be on the graph. I'd have to say in the description it's behind the graph, and you can't see it.

IMO whatever that place is it's outside anything Davoth probably had any sort of dominion over, or the Father. I think it's meant to be a glimpse of a vast and limitless world that would make Davoth feel like us the first time we realized there were other planets beyond ours.

Except to him, replace "our planet" with "the entirety of reality encompassing every realm I've seen or can think of."

[raw pine]

i do like the idea of davoth, the supposed creator of reality itself (theres supposed to be someone above him but i much prefer davoth at the top) being shocked at the cosmic realms existence. maybe a little bit of fear too?

[forest cave]

Yeah that's how I see it. If you believe the Crucible theory then that also paints an interesting perspective.

[raw pine]

whats the crucible theory?

i feel like you said it before and i forgot

and its very hot so my brains kinda fried rn lmao

[forest cave]

That the Demonic Crucible, and possibly Crucibles as a whole, originate from the Cosmic Realm. This was something IIRC that IconofSimp thought of in a video.

See here's something I still like to think of.

If you're like me, then you maybe have considered that Doom 2016's "dark priest consumed by the Crucible" prophecy has already happened.

"The power held within the Crucible will punish man-born and demon kin alike. It will crush the divide. It will corrupt all realms. It will create the monster. It must never be found."

"Yet even as the Doom Slayer revels in the spoils of his war, another shall rise from the fires: a dark priest consumed by the Crucible. And even the Doom Slayer shall weep in his shadow."

Everyone's like "oh man this was probably about Hayden. Too bad they abandoned this."

Nope. No. What if it's Davoth?

We know Davoth had a Crucible when the Father kicked his ass. And the presence of the Slayer's Mark near it in 2016 tells us the Demonic Crucible was... eh, probably Davoth's. And it just... changed.

But what if Davoth's Crucible never came from Hell? What if somehow, he contacted a realm far beyond what Jekkad could fathom, and brought back a relic? A sword?

And what if it drove him crazy? And started to make him think, "I need to solve immortality"?

[raw pine]

the cosmic realm likely would drive anyone insane

makes sense

[forest cave]

People interpret the second paragraph to mean, "a dark priest will be consumed by the Crucible and then dunk on the Slayer."

But what if it means, "a dark priest already consumed by the Crucible will return?"

[lapis saffron]

my personal view of the series is that Hell and an unseen “Heaven” are the afterlifes in Doom

but I only have evidence for the former the other is just a headcanon

[raw pine]

like davoth. assuming he’d return, we saw it in tag2. sadly, the slayer didnt weep in his shadow haha