the-codex

[lyric kraken]

[red basin]

hi

[lyric kraken]

Ban

[winter oxide]

fascinating

[quaint geyser]

Wish someone could mod those back in

[violet sundial]

I feel like the final mission of the dlc will be the sentinels laying siege on hell and then discovering the khan maykrs deception

[quaint geyser]

let's hope so honestly

[wintry perch]

it would be weird if they condensed the entire sentinel civil war into the dlc

bc if i remember correctly the betrayal was the ending

[dusky haven]

Civil war like that would need to be a whole new game

[gentle warren]

Y’know it’s cool how the UAC still exists in TDA even if it’s not mentioned

[quaint geyser]

Im hoping for smth in the DLC. Maybe we come across the ruins of Phobos and/or Deimos in one of the Hell levels

[coral vale]

find a former worker impaled on his own keycard

and extricate it from his still-beating heart

[quaint geyser]

oh look the World Spear.. that's neat

[winter oxide]

great find, i totally missed that

[lyric kraken]

[gentle warren]

The Argentans has a ”company” that does science

Which has its facilities located on Mars and is making Plasma technology

And if memory serves the cultists are scientists?

[lyric kraken]

They have nothing like the UAC

[gentle warren]

I just described how they have the UAC

Maybe not an exact 1-1, but science facility on mars?

[violet sundial]

Are titans and barons susceptible to the archviles influence

[quaint geyser]

Barons yeah, Titans i wouldnt think so

[glacial stream]

i've always wondered. i know the doom slayer has insane strength and durability and all that, but i've heard people also say he can absorb argent energy making him stronger. is there a codex stating that or is that just silly talk?

[quaint geyser]

i mean he does that in 2016 with the Argent Accumulators

which Hayden states as "pure Argent Energy" so.. yes

[glacial stream]

He takes those yeah but he doesn't exactly kill demons for them

Mb. Didn't clarify that. Heard people say he absorbs energy from demons he kills

[quaint geyser]

I mean I guess it depends on how you see it. Getting health, armor and ammo back from the enemies can just be viewed as a gameplay mechanic, but there's also the whole "draws strength from his fallen foes" thing, which could definitely be talking about that. It's never outright confirmed but it's never really denied either basically

[gentle warren]

He does actually do this after 2016. The Blood punch is upgraded after each Priest killed and you can get health/armor/ammo upgrades from certain demons in TDA. It’s likely that drawing strength from fallen foes is canon, but only applies to stronger demons like the ones mentioned and not just any run of the mill imp, which just restores his strength rather then enhance it

[quaint geyser]

You put it a lot better yeah, this is it

[forest cave]

Not in the way people think.

What the Slayer does, canonically, is absorb Argent from the corpses of demons to replenish his health. This isn't a power of his, but rather a function of his suit.

There is little evidence to suggest he literally "powers up" as he kills, though. This is represented through relatively obscure game mechanics and has little bearing on the Slayer's overall actions since he uses guns 90% of the time anyway.

[quaint geyser]

THATS the aspect I was forgetting yeah. Here I thought I was the expert

[forest cave]

LOL this is all obscure bullshit anyway so I don't blame you. The fact that this is a suit thing is gleaned from exactly one (1) Codex file in 2016.

From "The Praetor Suit":

It appeared to have some mechanical function as well - small receptors on the gloves and chest plate that attracted Argent plasma and dissipated it through capillary tubes in the substructure.

[quaint geyser]

that is so much better than "oh uh he just absorbs it into his body or smth somehow I guess"

[forest cave]

Yeah lol. Generally I prefer the Slayer relying on his gear.

One of the things I don't fuck with powerscalers over. "He doesn't even need guns haha... he uses them for fun..." yeah dude. They totally made it so canonically the most iconic FPS protagonist in the most iconic FPS series known for its guns actually doesn't need them and the guns are useless. Totally bro.

Turns out Mario never actually jumps, and in GTA they never canonically steal cars.

[quaint geyser]

yeah that shit pisses me off too, like it doesn't make him cooler, it makes him lamer lol. this does make me question though like.. what exactly did the Divinity Machine actually give him? Cuz if not the ability to absorb Argent and Hell Energy and stuff. Did it just buff his already existing strength, it's still so unclear like what it actually did (unless im forgetting some obscure codex bullshit again)

[forest cave]

Enhanced strength, stamina, speed. A comparison I like to make is it made Doomguy from a very capable but normal human into Captain America on steroids.

He's a superhuman. He can punch much harder than the average human, he can take much more damage and grievous injury than a human, and he can keep moving and exerting himself for longer than a human.

He also seems to have an infinite lifespan.

[quaint geyser]

so it didnt give him any supernatural po-

okay nvm lol

[forest cave]

It's essentially a super-serum. Plus immortality.

Ultimately the Divinity Machine's superpower shit is surprisingly irrelevant to the story. When we consider what the Divinity Machine does to Doomguy, the fact it enhances his strength is actually, like. The least important part of it.

The most important part is that it did this by transferring Davoth's essence into him, and that this permanently changed the course of his life, arguably being the thing that (to be a nerd about it) "dooms" him.

Though TDA also attributes a lot of that to the Tether.

[quaint geyser]

double-edged sword yeah, the Divinity Machine was a blessing and curse

it basically guaranteed his fate

[forest cave]

Yeah. The power shit ultimately is just a canon way to justify gameplay mechanics and cool scenes. It's the immortality and changes to his psyche that ultimately are more important.

[gentle warren]

He can’t age? That makes a lot of sense actually

Explains the billions of years trapped in the sarcophagus

[forest cave]

Yeah. From the Slayer's perspective at least "eons" have passed since the classic games and TDA - that's the term the Codex uses. "Eon" being a colloquial term that generally means "really fucking long," but more specifically is usually meant to refer to a billion years.

That is not at all the timeline from an Earthly perspective though. Just Hell. It's time dilation BS.

[gentle warren]

Oh I thought you meant post-divinity. Pre-divinity, I chalk it up to hell and earth having different times. Eons might’ve passed, but for him, it’s only been a decade or two

I can’t really believe that he’s been around for centuries in hell while just being a normal guy

[quaint geyser]

i mean that's just the appeal of the character isn't it? everyone in universe hypes him up as some God, some deity, a higher being we mortals could never understand. But in reality he's just a regular dude like anyone else, who's got hobbies, interests, family etc.

[gentle warren]

Pre-NuDOOM yes, post-NuDOOM? Kind of

Though that description fits Gordon Freeman better than Doomguy

[radiant snow]

They could flip this "he's treated as a weapon" thing into a tragic part of the character but they only did that with TDA, in Eternal they basked in that for some reason

[quaint geyser]

i wouldn't say it basked in it, it's more subtext rather than on full display like TDA. Like in a codex entry the "Rip and Tear" thing is described by the Sentinels as a war cry but when we actually see Doomguy saying it in the flashback, it's his mad PTSD ramblings

[gentle warren]

It makes sense not to do it in Eternal imo, Doomguy is arguably the most free in that game.

TDA is self explanatory, and 2016 has him tugged around by Dr Hayden

[radiant snow]

It made sense to do it in all of them because this is one of the core aspects of a character that was rather uninteresting until TDA

[quaint geyser]

ehhh I wouldn't really say that, it's just again "subtext", it didn't feel the need to be obvious about it, you could infer it, and it being inferred arguably made it more interesting (at least for me)

[glacial stream]

I wouldn't call him free exactly. He's pretty much doomed to an eternal fight (wait a minute. That's bars right there)

[gentle warren]

Tbf nothings stopping him from accepting the Khan Maykrs ideals, nothings stopping him from staying in the Fortress of DOOM, nothings stopping him from going in hiding like Valen

[glacial stream]

There is one thing. His willpower. His rage. Also, i doubt the Khan actually could do that. Think she was just tryna get him of their backs

[gentle warren]

He fights cuz he had to or else humanity dies

He doesn’t have any personal stakes in it either, this is a new earth

[glacial stream]

Him seeing another version of his world get devoured by the very things that took everything from him would make him lose it. It'd make anyone lose it

[gentle warren]

Maybe, but’s he’s seen it maybe… five times at this point? Probably get a bit desensitized

[native sedge]

Doesn't the 4th testament say he can draw strength from fallen foes and his power grew , meaning he draws it anyway and maybe the praetor suit facilitates it for him aswell by allowing absorption

[glacial stream]

As i said. Trapped in an endless fight. He may be free to quit whenever he wants, but his mind won't let him. And what happened when his fight was over? He fell on the ground and was locked away waiting for the day he's needed again

[gentle warren]

I don’t that’s what happened, the Maykrs definitely conked him out

[glacial stream]

"May the blood on your sword never dry and may we never need you again". It could mean that his power is gone and they hope so are the demons for good but to me that means he's fallen unconscious and he'll wake again if the demons ever return

[gentle warren]

Nothing ever says he’s tied to the demons that way, he’s tied to Davoth but the demons themselves was never said anywhere

[glacial stream]

I never said he's tied to the demons. He was tied to Davoth which ended when doom slayer "killed" him. In all honesty, i just find the idea of he'll wake again if a new threat appears more interesting because it gives hope to games after Eternal. Doesn't limit them to the past. Maybe they could make Samur have Davoth return or something to get revenge on the Slayer

[native sedge]

Hugo said more than a few times , the slayer is in hibernation currently until a new threat arises and he is needed

So at some point it is a safe bet to assume, we will return to a post eternal timeline

[gentle warren]

Hugos word is kind of flawed. He doesn’t care about the games story which is a mixture of his and the other writers, only his own version. So take everything he says with a grain of salt, especially if the game shows otherwise (it doesn’t in this case)

[native sedge]

While true, he has a major input in the direction due to his position at id, so you can still take some of what he says as confirmation of sorts

Which in this case, is a potential game post ag2

Though of course, that is not concrete , which i get

I am just cautiously optimistic

[gentle warren]

He’s still shown massive bias and has genuinely damaged the fandoms perspective on the story (mostly with how he details the slayers power level)

[forest cave]

Luckily nothing in the canon states this. The eons he spends in hell are specifically meant to be post-TDA. He likely only spent less than a year or whatever in Hell after 64 IMO.

[forest cave]

To me part of it is that the Slayer embraces the violence and his role as, like, basically a warrior as Hell's adversary. What he does not embrace, and will never embrace, is being under someone else's thumb.

It's not the violence and the eternal fighting against Hell that he rejects. For better or worse he accepts that. What he rejects is being controlled and having his destiny being tied into others. It's why he hates the Maykrs, it's why he defies Hayden, it's why he destroys the Father's Life Sphere.

Hell is an evil the Slayer is comfortable fighting. He's used to it. The Maykrs and the UAC are not. They are an evil that I think disturbs and sets him off a lot more than Hell does at this point. I'd argue he's much more angry at Urdak than he is at Hell by the time Eternal rolls around.

Like. I still think a major example of this is Eternal's suit.

I think when you have the following details:

• Hayden installs a tether onto the Praetor Suit in 2016...
• ...which gives him control over the Slayer and where he goes...
• ...and in Eternal the Slayer has dismantled the suit and made his own...
• ...and in TDA we're shown he spent a significant amount of time as a brainwashed husk controlled by the Maykrs via their tether. Installed onto his suit.

In my mind when I envision how that went, I see the Slayer panicking and ripping off that suit ASAP as soon as he's in the Fortress of Doom and away from combat post-2016.

[quaint geyser]

poor fucker

[radiant snow]

I don't have anything to say but not because I'm seething but because I can see this point of view

Me personally though, I like tragedy in my Doomguy, I think having him hate authority is like, a very normal average thing, I want more tragedy, and I think his objectification both in-universe and by the fandom are like, a perfect opportunity to make his character more interesting, so I put that into consideration when thinking about him

[forest cave]

That's fair. Personally I don't see these as mutually exclusive. To me it's, like, kind of a dual line.

Like, this is why I don't mind TAG's story overall despite the missed opportunity. When you look at Doomguy's story across the board it fits him perfectly.

[quaint geyser]

(TAG actually has the best story in the modern games fun fact)

[forest cave]

I made a Tumblr post about this but I'm too lazy to find it. The TLDR there was that I posited that DOOM posits that organized religion is just another form of authoritarianism. And much of its plot entails the Slayer's rejection of religion as a whole.

When people ask, "why did he crush the Father's Life Sphere? He was a good guy." it misses the point of the conflict here: the Maykrs, to Doomguy, are inherently corrupt and it isn't worth trying to save them. They're Gods. And Gods, he feels, are nothing more than idols of worship that do nothing but demand praise and faith and subjugation in return for nothing but false hope.

[quaint geyser]

it was so obvious to me why he did it when I played it the first time, I was genuinely baffled going online and seeing people be confused at that scene. I find it so funny how people often meme on DOOM as being "the most christian game of all time cuz you kill demons" but like.. DOOM kinda fucking hates religion lol

[forest cave]

Thira's whole speech at the end of TDA where she says the Sentinels must now place their faith in themselves - that's basically retroactively foreshadowing TAG. Doom's story ultimately posits that mankind is strong and independent enough that we can carve our own path without needing the false hope of idols and Gods. Whether they exist or not.

[forest cave]

Yeah. The "Christian game" thing was fun but Eternal absolutely dunks on it.

Now, I wanna specify, I am not anti-religion. I actually like religion. I'm not religious but I think Reddit atheists are the worst and I think it is painfully, beautifully human for us to want to believe in something bigger than ourselves that gives us purpose.

I'm just saying what I think Doom is saying.

I also think there is irony in the fact that Doomguy is the figure emphasizing that we do not need Gods, yet humanity has not fully accepted the message; they now worship the Slayer as a God.

[quaint geyser]

agreed, nothing more to add on that. It's such a cool subversion of expectations, like I'm actually really glad DOOM doesn't just follow traditional religious history

[quaint geyser]

we humans are simple creatures i suppose

[forest cave]

Yeah. I suppose it speaks to me because I am an optimist when it comes to humans. I don't fuck with nihilists.

You know the whole thing where someone will ask "what's the most dangerous animal?" and some motherfucker with his Thinking Cap on says "bro, it's humans... we're destroying everything... humans are evil and shit man... we've ended so many species... we're killing the earth..."

And it's like. When did you or I do any of that shit? That's not humans. That's some humans. Climate change is happening because of the collective actions of a few giant corporations and like, 50 mega-rich people. There are billions of people on Earth.

[quaint geyser]

yeah it's more nuanced than that. Black and white mentally is something I despise so much like this is why there is still so much conflict. It's always us vs. them or I'm good and they're bad. Life is grey

[forest cave]

Humans can do fucked up shit, but I do genuinely believe we are predisposed towards kindness and courage. I think Doom displays that pretty well - the Slayer is treated as if he's become something completely different from human, but has he? In the regard of kindness and courage, he is still just as human as he was when he punched out his C.O. for telling him to shoot civilians.

I think that is also why I enjoyed Samuel Hayden's twist re: the Maykrs. I think it's cool to take the concept of soulless bureaucratic capitalism and essentially tell the player "hey, you think this is just a human problem? This shit was around since before humans existed. The evil CEO who doesn't let you have weekends off? He started out as a narcissistic angel, demanding worship just for his presence."

[quaint geyser]

yeah i mean dude's still a nerd collecting toys, playing videogames, making music and reading comics in his mancave even after "eons". I love it so much

[quaint geyser]

ehhhh i can see why people like it, I'm still just a fan of his original concept more personally

[forest cave]

My enjoyment of that expanded a lot in seeing my belief that Eternal wanted to establish the UAC as basically just another version of the Maykr Ministry. Just eons down the road, and run by a Maykr who may not even know he's a Maykr. But even now, we can't get out from under the thumbs of those fucking Maykrs.

[forest cave]

That's fair. It's not really "people" honestly. I haven't met a single person who sincerely agrees with me on Hayden haha. I am well aware I'm in the minority there.

[quaint geyser]

damn really? I mean I know it's a popular take but wow, I expect a few people to agree at least

[forest cave]

Yeah pretty much everyone I've met thinks Hayden was better as an asshole human.

[quaint geyser]

My argument is essentially that it just kinda makes the universe feel smaller by having every single character be important to the grander universe or responsible for the Slayer's creation or smth along the lines. I just think it's cool to have a regular human accomplish the things he did, and I know you disagree with this, but the way you're meant to view him in 2016 is "morally grey", at least that's most people's takeaway

[forest cave]

No yeah that's fair.

I can see the value in that and I agree it does make Doom's universe feel a bit smaller.

I do contend my belief that Hayden's evil as fuck in 2016 though.

[radiant snow]

In a totally planned plot twist, it's revealed the Slayer Suit voice from TDA is actually D3guy

[quaint geyser]

tbf it would give that thing some more personality

or less actually wait D3guy has even less

[radiant snow]

It'd make DOOM an MCU style series where each game reveals a very minor thing from the last game is actually important

Remember that glory kill where you crush the zombie's head? Well now you find out it was invented by the secret cofounder of the UAC, Crush Zombi

[quaint geyser]

I was sorta under the impression that a lot of the evil shenanigans happening at the UAC were Olivia's doing and Samuel wasn't too aware of it but I could be wrong

[quaint geyser]

it already is that, dont you remember the opening of Immora lmao

[radiant snow]

I don't want to remember it

I hate that TAG 2's cover art immortalized this scene among other covers of the series because the scene itself, and the cover art, are mid

[quaint geyser]

come oooon it wasnt THAT egregious

(okay yeah it was)

[forest cave]

I take the messages from the hologram people to be "normal" UAC shit rather than Olivia. If we go by that then at the least Hayden had secret police roaming the base to monitor and disappear people who disobeyed or didn't work hard enough.

The Codex also mentions 7-day work weeks.

[granite tusk]

Actually one of the ResOps holograms is much more early revealz, how UAC is insane. It says about soul harvest.

[gentle warren]

He says he was aware afaik, i don’t even think he tried to stop it

He just moved the slayer and got ready to unleash him

[lament scaffold]

Yes, everyone here focuses on the first sentence and adds the Praetor Suit, but they forget that it literally say that his power grows

Cherry picking

[lapis saffron]

aw i missed all the fun conversations

[lapis saffron]

i hate the slayer suit voice so so much 😭

lets make a game set before vega but then make a bootleg vega!!!

at least kreed is fine as a bootleg samur cause he's better than samur

[lapis saffron]

the only acceptable time was the eternal intro which literally had me hype as fuck

the dark ages did at least treat it with some gravitas though

[lapis saffron]

no definitely not 😭

TAG 1 is my favourite 3 level run of the modern games I think but it's story is genuinely one of the most abysmal in all of gaming i feel

[lapis saffron]

i kinda enjoyed it but that's mostly because at the time i got to tag 2 i'd just played through the ENTIRE series in a huge marathon so that Immora opening felt like the culmination of the past few months for me LMFAO

really i need immora to have more gravitas like they shouldve kept the betrayer being killed by davoth in I feel

[quaint geyser]

Maybe analyzing this series' lore for so long lowered my standards or smth i dunno, but i genuinely don't know exactly what is "abyssmal" about it

[lapis saffron]

the way it's presented and the story beats in it are just quite bad

this is why i hate the intern his line deliveries and his exposition is just awful

"Samuel Hayden is the Seraphim!!!! He's been with us the whole time!!!" I CAN SEE THAT MAN YOU DONT NEED TO SPELL IT OUT

ntm obviously it was an eternal introduced thing but hayden becomes soo boring when he became the seraphim

additionally i think making slayer and samuel have a fight but samuel not having a crucible to follow up on the prophecy from 2016 sucks super hard

[quaint geyser]

Okay yeah that sucked i wont deny that lol, but i dont think the rest od his dialogue is that bad

[lapis saffron]

unrelated dimspree wheres your pfp from it gives me star fetchers vibes

[quaint geyser]

I prefer Hayden being too human but I will say it's not exactly like it makes no sense, the game does enough to justify it making sense, its just a lame twist regardless

[lapis saffron]

i mean it's a sort of clumsy retcon and i find he is written fairly inconsistently

his writing in general is just less compelling than 2016 im not sure what it is. i accept im probably a bit mentally checked out due to not liking the twist but even in eternal (i acknowledge the twist is set up here and yea i saw it coming here too) he's just not as good?

[quaint geyser]

Yeah this is also my biggest gripe with Eternal, the fact that Hayden never gets to battle Slayer using the demonic Crucible is one of the biggest missed oppurtunities in the series

[lapis saffron]

i think TAG is effectively like, the culmination of Eternal's writing mistakes

Eternal as a campaign managed to power through them but once we went past the Icon all of it sort of compounded

[quaint geyser]

For me, once I started looking at the story for what it is, rather than what I wanted it to be, it is definitely not "abyssmal" just. And that's not to say it's perfect, and I mean if it were up to me Eternal's story would be quite different from what we got (and TDA), I just think people exaggerate a little bit when it's really not THAT bad

[quaint geyser]

I dont even remember what its from honestly

[lapis saffron]

i think even knowing what it is i just dont find it a particularly well written ending for the seraphim or the betrayer or davoth

i did actually enjoy the dark lord fight though which apparently is a minority opinion

[quaint geyser]

Again I just think Eternal's biggest issue moreso is that it does a poor job at portraying and telling its story, rather than it actually being outright bad

Which is likely because of just how rushed it was. I'm sure they wanted to flesh all this stuff out more but they just didnt have the time unfortunately

[gentle warren]

Shit is so bad man

Vegas comeback was so ass that I thought I missed a cutscene

[lapis saffron]

idk i still think the way it sort of doesn't address the gap between 2016 to eternal that well, retconning samuel from 2016 into something less compelling (i actually like vega father + vega father was foreshadowed in 2016), making the crucible into a useless macguffin and having it not really tie into samuel's plotline at all,
intern's poor writing, lack of committal to making the betrayer sacrifice himself, the contrivance in the gate being on earth... inexplicably, the disjointed transitions between some levels, the general way it hypes up the slayer farrrrrr too much to a comical degree

is not great

pretty much the only thing that really grew on me that i disliked initially was the drastic tone shift (and that's only slightly - i wish some things were treated with a bit more gravitas, but admittedly it is a really fun vibe haha)

[lapis saffron]

what about it weren't you a fan of like do you mean vega being there in general or him being the father

[quaint geyser]

the comeback was abrupt but I really like that twist, it's better than Samuel being the Seraphim at least

VEGA being just a simple AI is neat, but a trope, I'm glad they did smth new in that regard and 2016 definitely did allude to it more than with Samuel being the Seraphim

like what AI is just gonna say "I have many regards Dr. Hayden"

[quaint geyser]

I think how Samuel was handled in Eternal is ultimately its biggest story problem, but it's such a big problem because so many people loved 2016 Hayden that is kinda makes the entire game look worse, but that really is the only BIG problem with it in my mind. I can honestly forgive everything else

[lapis saffron]

• the core of VEGA being arcane technology that just appeared one day (2016 codex) and VEGA's core having maykr markings on it if you inspect it in 2016

[lapis saffron]

he's like the deuteragonist of the game it's pretty notable

[quaint geyser]

not saying it isn't, I was pissed when I saw the Seraphim reveal for the first time, probably the most pissed I've ever been at one of these games, but I can forgive because I loved everything with the Father's reveal and I also really love Davoth's backstory on top of that. There's more I like about TAG's story than dislike, so I can begrudgingly forgive it for ruining Hayden. Even then I personally headcanon Hayden and the Seraphim as two different characters which is also technically doable

[gentle warren]

I'm not a big fan of VEGA being the Father, but the TAG comeback for him was probably the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen

[lapis saffron]

oh yeah he wasn't great in TAG

[gentle warren]

Its not even explained in the cutscene, either. He is just BACK as soon as the level starts so abruptly that its genuinely possible to think you missed something until the Intern explains that "oh hey hes actually back!"

[quaint geyser]

I thought the TAG2 codex revealing that TAG1's codex was all a lie was a brilliant twist I don't think I've ever seen any game do before, and it was still in-line with what we know about the Maykrs, that they're decievers

[lapis saffron]

oh yeah i did think that was neat

[raw pine]

I LOVE IT

[lapis saffron]

im not really a big fan of davoth conceptually but that was neat

[raw pine]

davoth’s my favorite doom character besides the slayer but i see why people are critical of him

[quaint geyser]

I think a lot of people find Davoth sillier than he actually is because of his design. Doomguy.exe is not a good design and clearly is something they did at the last minute, but his backstory and voice acting soooo makes up for that.

[lapis saffron]

oh i dont really find davoth silly i just dont think he meshes well with the vibe of 1-2016

but thats just my personal opinion on what i find more fitting of the doom universe. i wouldnt call him bad over that

[quaint geyser]

tbf I don't think it's that bad if you're paying attention, the reveal is in the basegame in all fairness

[lapis saffron]

i mean i dont think he was executed to the best of their ability but i at least think the codex thing is neat and i enjoyed his fight

[gentle warren]

I don't fw Father Vega but it admittedly makes some sense

[quaint geyser]

that's fair. Eternal took the series down a more fantasy route (which personally I'm also not too fond of, TDA is really pushing it), but I think Eternal has a decent balance of fantasy and sci-fi

[lyric kraken]

There's no fun here

[forest cave]

Ahzrak is my second favorite. Davoth is cool though.

[forest cave]

I will stand by my defense of Davoth's fight. It's fine.

Admittedly it is better with mods. The Master Level mod rocks.

[lapis saffron]

I would’ve liked if they had time for the dragon phase to give it more spectacle

I enjoy playing it though. Admittedly I didn’t realise the demons were killable on a first playthrough and thought it was more engaging than it really is

[forest cave]

The Master Level mod really improves that part of it - he spawns them earlier in the match, and after the halfway-point cutscene he spawns a slaughter wave for you to deal with before fighting him properly.

[wintry perch]

I can't enjoy his boss fight even with mods

[quaint geyser]

I'm actually so happy he didnt turn into a dragon im ngl

[lapis saffron]

i wonder whether if it was implemented i'd prefer it as a final form or as an initial fight

maybe it'd be cooler if he started off as a big fuckoff dragon and then the slayer weakened him enough to have to go into proper 1v1 combat

[quaint geyser]

Yeah i guess it couldve been like the Spider Mastermind in that regard. I just really wouldnt want to look at a dragon whilst the Slayer and Davoth are having that final little talk.

[raw pine]

hold on

https://tenor.com/view/milchick-seth-milchick-milchick-severance-severance-dylan-severance-gif-15660821040109020645

i typed this up pretty recently. i dont care if its corny but oh my god its just too good

[quaint geyser]

Sure why not this series is already influenced by star wars so much, lets pile on some more

[raw pine]

not a bad thing lmao

[lapis saffron]

i think it's kinda bad cause i don't like hugo's opinions on star wars lol :P

[raw pine]

thats fair, i understand some of the criticisms

just cant get the vader/davoth thing out of my head

[violet sundial]

The only reason they put the dark lord in a 12 foot tall mech suit instead of a regular sized armor is so he can look taller than his minions

[winter oxide]

that's cause mobile suits are cool!

[cerulean vessel]

No it’s so that he would be equal to the Slayer

The Dark Lord needed it to stand a chance in the fight

[gentle warren]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-donkey-compensating-thinking-gif-3683673

[quaint geyser]

Its better than a dragon, i will die on this hill

[wicked turtle]

Davoth is compensating for something

[wicked turtle]

I'm kinda iffy on that plot point. I see why people hate it, but its in the game so you just gotta live with it I guess.

[lyric kraken]

I've looked into it further, and the story never actually suggests that the Slayer can heal himself by killing demons.

There is nothing to suggest that with each death he absorbs the life force of the demons, the Preator suit absorbs Argent, yes, but we have a cinematic that shows how it does it, and when he kills demons, the same thing doesn't happen, he doesn't even need to kill them to heal, which already proves that it's just a game mechanic

[lyric kraken]

I'm not sure if the first sentence is written correctly, but in TDA we see that the Slayer absorbs the essence of demons, but only those that are enhanced, and the Slayer needs to destroy their heart

While with the others, nothing happens

[lyric kraken]

Even so, he doesn't canonically heal in the story; at the zombie level, he doesn't recover from his wounds even after killing these empowered demons

[dusky haven]

Slayer's Testament IV: "For he alone could draw strength from his fallen foes, and ever his power grew..." depends on how you interpret that line

Also, like, glory kills

[lyric kraken]

The conversation is about that; one interpretation of that line is that it explains that he heals himself with the strength of his fallen enemies but only that

But it contradicts what we see in the story and gameplay

Which leads to, it's a literal phrase

That's why it specifies "and ever his power grows"

Swift and unrelenting

Mono scares me a little since he's one of the few who knows the lore, so I'm leaving before he comes

[royal marten]

what is with that same emoji every single time

[lyric kraken]

I like that emoji

[royal marten]

we know

[lyric kraken]

I love Hugo, add more emojis

Hugojis

[dusky zephyr]

[lyric kraken]

Peak

[stiff lark]

[lyric kraken]

It's not from this server

[fossil igloo]

Guys how strong is the doom slayer (like multi universal, city level, etc)

[lyric kraken]

His scale varies depending on the enemy being fought, if you look at it this way, it's consistent with the lore and the gameplay

He can increase his strength at any time, as we see in all the games. In Doom Eternal, he destroys a Titan with weapons not designed to destroy Titans, and before that, he can't even damage them

[fossil igloo]

So he could technically get to outerversal?

Or hyperversal?

[lyric kraken]

Watafak

No

[lyric kraken]

But one of his greatest feats is surviving the destruction of a multiverse while fighting demons

[fossil igloo]

I see

That is most intriguing

[lyric kraken]

Furthermore, I believe I can add undeniable evidence

The Slayer doesn't even need to use his Praetor Suit in Eternal, he can still heal himself when he kills demons.

[stark burrow]

[lyric kraken]

The Slayer skins are canon

He canonically fights while cosplaying as Conan the Barbarian

Furthermore, he has his original suit and Sentinel armor in his fortress; he can use them whenever he wants. You can beat the game without the Praetor Suit.

[stark burrow]

Does doomguy’s bed (the sarcophagus) drain his power? Is that why his armor and health always restart at 100hp and 50ap at the start of the games?

[lyric kraken]

[stark burrow]

gulp

[lyric kraken]

Which makes the mechanic of recovering health with Glory Kills non-canon

[royal marten]

lmfao. Added a new one

@lyric kraken

I took this screenshot during a stream

[dusky zephyr]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1401021067748839545/1486947956702838885/IMG_20251106_190934.jpg?ex=69c75bb3&is=69c60a33&hm=a6170e5c1d2a14cf26f08de629bd9697f89f8160921fb624de3243db3d6c866b&

[royal marten]

That's the one

[dusky zephyr]

Hugo seeing Peoples Reaction to the Lore ahh

[royal marten]

Before and after Unreclaimed Earth

[lyric kraken]

Hugo, realizing he has to explain why King Novik did something useful when the game already explains it

[lyric kraken]

I remember he had to repeat what King Novik said in Siege Part 2 because some people didn't understand anything

At the start of the level, the King says he will stay to distract the demons so that people can escape, and then Hugo, near the end of the level, had to explain it

[granite tusk]

He looks so hirarious comparing large frame to his head

[arctic fable]

Could anyone tell me according to 2016 lore, what relationships between enemies should be in terms of hate/friendship?

I'm currently working on a mod that increases options for infights, but I don't know how it should be according to lore, if I would set it in more nuanced way.
There are these enemy types there: Zombie, Soldrier Plasma, Soldier Shotgun, HellRazer, HellKnight, Summoner, Revenant, Mancubus, Cacodemon, Pinky, Baron.
There are these additional groups: Enemy, Leader, Common, Hellified, Demon, Uac (not sure, if in use), Boss.

And I'm not sure how logically they should relate to each other.

1. Should everyone hate regular zombies? Should zombies have better relationships with other zombified or low tier enemies?
2. Should common group (low tier - imps, soldiers, hellrazers) fight each other more, since they are simplier form of enemies? Should their balance stay same as they fight together vs common threat like mid/high tier enemies? Should common be more loyal towards higher enemies at the same time (aka forgive them their attacks more)?
3. Should Soldiers and Revenants fight together vs enemies more?
4. Should demons fight vs non demons more?
5. Should mid tier enemies be more against low tier enemies and more friendly with high tier enemies?
6. Should high tier enemies be more against low tier enemies and more friendly with mid tier enemies?
7. Should Cacodemons have hunger and hunt for low tier enemies, when they have chance?
8. Should Archviles/Summoner or other demon have extra status of almost untouchable?
9. Should all enemies including bosses react to decoy or some could understand that it's not a player?

[gentle warren]

I’m pretty sure it’s just an all out brawl if you’re not apart of the same species

If you want to make the summoner and exception you could, since the OG Archvile had immunity

Barons also don’t attack other barons and the same with hellkngihts

other then that, all enemies will infight afaik

[arctic fable]

Thank you very much!
I made so Summoners are also attacked and attack everyone, but I would give them bigger chance of not being attacked, I guess.
I can't make enemies attack each other, if they belong to same type, so no Imps vs Imps or Barons vs Barons, anyway. But Plasma Soldier can attack Shotgun Soldier now.

Issue is that, as I posted in classic-doom channel:

In Doom 2016 vanilla there is clear hierarchy and few exceptions and no infights with own type:

• Summoners/Archviles don't fight as far as I remember nor enemies fight vs them.
• Zombies, Cacodemons don't fight nor enemies fight vs them outside of directed fights (edited: should mention Caco fight others, if player is dead).
• Imps and Soldiers fight almost everyone and each other and often fight together vs higher tier enemies.
• Revenants fight almost everyone.
• Hell Knights and other high tier demons don't fight each other and fight only fodder and Revenants.
  The only thing I mentioned incorrectly is that I think Summoners actually fight in vanilla vs lower tier enemies, if infights already started. Also Revenants fight on side of the fodder (?), if infight started between fodder and mid/high tier.

So, not sure why Devs went with hierarchy and did something change from lore perspective in 2016 compared to Doom 1, which led to it and should be addressed.

[raw pine]

my opinion

1. yes. higher demons especially should hate regular zombies. zombies should have better relationships with other zombies or lower tier enemies

2. i see them fighting moreso than the rest of the demons. if you wanna go by lore, take a look at dark ages’ arenas. specifically the soldier formation. they seem to be more organized and tactical than other installments. without a proper leader… well, all hell breaks loose.

3. you can make this decision yourself. but a cool idea if possible, is that i see revenants and soldiers fighting together, and when their target is killed, they begin to fight.

4. yes

5. yes

6. somewhat. i think they’d dislike low tier enemies and get along with mid tier enemies depending on the demon. for example, high tier demons and summoners would get along because summoners are responsible for bringing demons in to the fight.

7. yes

8. answered in 6 kinda, but i think the summoner should be chill with everyone

9. i think it’d be cool if cacos, pinkies, or spectres didnt go for the decoy, especially cacos considering how they live to eat and consume everything in their path. they’d much prefer flesh over a fake hologram. i know that because if i was a cacodemon i’d have the same opinion

[arctic fable]

Thank you so much for such detailed answer!!! ❤️🥳 I would take all of this into account and try to implement, where possible.
I made approximate spreadsheet for now, but would try to think about more in terms of values.

2. In 2016 code, imps have leader, but I have no idea how it's implemented and is it implemented at all.

3. Unfortunately, making very high hate towards non-player target would make such enemies very vulnerable to player, since they would aim for non-player target, while player can shoot them. But if to make them hate enough, but not too much it can work.

4. I consider Cacos, Summoners, Mancubi, Barons as high tier within this system (at least Summoners considered high in this system by code for sure).

5. I guess, I'd make higher tier enemies react less to decoy (aka have less hate towards it).

[raw pine]

of course! interested to play it soon if you upload it

https://youtu.be/CByssCFHoC4?si=4gmYZicXD88pmCD5 @lament jay 10:30

where did my message go

okay im gonna tldr it:

i like davoth’s design because it shows us what he once was before the days of hell. we get to see a truly ancient god that was once benevolent. we dont get that with ahzrak because he never had an event where he was “corrupted,” he just always looked like that.

i do wish we got something more biblical added to davoth’s design. i like the idea of gray wings to reference lucifer and how he fell from heaven, like how davoth fell from grace and turned into the dark lord. just something more in relation to satan. i do love the tattoo’s though

[lament jay]

that makes a lot of sense

to my understanding a lot of the demons are different from their original species evolved for hells violent environment and twisted by hell energy but davoth doesnt reproduce and die and is the source of hells violent energy

so he wouldnt be affected by any of the forces changing the demons into what they are

[granite tusk]

You mean leader of imp pack?

It would be funny if after killing the leader, imps dramaticly run away like CE grunts.

[quaint geyser]

Shouldve had a phase where we fought him without him being in the mech suit

[arctic fable]

They do run away already, if scared, if I understand it correctly (for example, if another imp was killed/GKed) - just can't run away completely from battle - that would require script changes for battle.

[latent fractal]

does anyone feel like the tda codex enteries (including enemy/weapon/locations) seem less lore building than eternal? is this maybe just because eternal was the first time they REALLY focused on world building so its just a matter of comparison?

[sonic violet]

they are
seemingly they're trying to make the story more self-contained within the cutscenes and the limited codex entries than eternal was

which I'm certainly a fan of, because reading through the codexes in eternal to understand what the heck is going on is wasn't all that enjoyable

[wintry perch]

agreed

[forest cave]

Hugo stated leading up to the game that TDA intended to "take the story out of the Codex and into the cutscenes."

Eternal frustratingly required you to pore over dozens of Codex entries to understand basic plot points about the story. (How did the invasion start? Why does the Slayer have personal beef with the Hell Priests? What happened to Hayden? Why does Valen give a shit about stabbing the Icon of Sin?)

So TDA has very little "essential" info in the Codex. All I would really say the player needs to know re: the basic plotline is how the Slayer acquired Serrat, and how exactly the Old One's resurrection works.

[latent fractal]

I guess I wish the entries had more nuggets. They just seem like bland flavor text now. I want extra information. Every time I read one, I leave dissatisfied.

However, maybe that is because of rage over how bad the interference is. Like, why do I need to grab the keyboard to see more. Why can't I just mouse over and scroll lol

[forest cave]

Sure, because they can be destroyed, obviously, if they have powerful enough weaponry to do so, while the Crucible, unlike everything else, is the only thing that can stop a Titan, they make a big difference between the Crucible and other weapons.
@lament scaffold I certainly stopped plenty of Titans in TDA without any Crucibles. I believe I watched the enemies become corpses and then fizzle away like every other demon you kill in the game, hmm.

Anyway, the Crucible argument in Eternal has always been a contradiction and any attempt to make it make sense requires liberal headcanon, and what do you know? Headcanon is not proof, and it means nothing when you're making a real argument. The idea that "well normal weapons can kinda sort kill Titans but Crucibles double-kill them" or however you want to word it is headcanon; functionally, we are killing dozens of Titans in TDA with no Crucible, and while we see them resurrected, it's only when Ahzrak does so using his newfound Wraith powers.

The Great One in Doom 2016 is mega dead and it was killed Crucible-less. The Dreadnought in Eternal, if anything, seems to be in some sort of stasis. You could make the argument Crucibles don't even kill Titans, just trap them in a stasis - the Dreadnought visibly moves and writhes when you remove the Crucible hilt. (Though it could be death throes, rigor mortis, some bullshit like that.)

[lament scaffold]

You say mine is a headcanon when you're talking about your headcanon (Dead Titans)

[forest cave]

see lifeless corpse with guts spilled out having been doing nothing for the past XYZ million years
"why are you assuming that thing's dead? what are you, stupid? it's very alive."

https://tenor.com/view/steve-harrington-steve-um-umm-umm-ok-gif-13867736136168352476

[lament scaffold]

At no point in the story is it mentioned that the titans die, we only see them destroyed

[forest cave]

Again, semantics bullshit. And you know this.

These are functionally the same thing. You are trying to create a distinction that is not a thing in the story.

[lament scaffold]

Oh sure, semantics don't matter

"Yeah yeah, what the lore says doesn't matter because that's how I want it, and I'll deny everything else just because."

[lament scaffold]

There's a clear distinction, and it's not my fault you don't see it

[forest cave]

The lore does not say the shit you are saying though, is the thing. I know this because I've read and studied all this back-to-front more times than I can count. And then I wrote a literal fucking book on the topic.

[lean echo]

What is this playground scuffle even about 💔

[forest cave]

"Erm, there is a clear distinction between skeletons and bones. It's not my fault you can't see that."
"Dude, there's obviously a clear distinction between oxygen and air. What are you, a moron?"

[lament scaffold]

Of course, the lore has always said that everyone dies, dies, dies, and dies

[forest cave]

Okay cool, so the human corpses we see in Doom 2016 aren't dead. They're just sleeping.

Nothing says they died for sure, right? We get a computer saying so, but it's fallible. Clearly we shouldn't assume it's dead.

[lament scaffold]

Ahzrak resurrecting titans, I remember exactly the place and time where they said they were resurrected, very epic

[forest cave]

Why does everyone keep saying Serrat died in Doom: The Dark Ages? The game never says this.

[lament scaffold]

Oh wait, didn't the loading screen say that Ahzrak empowered his army to fight the Sentinels? Oh no, never mind lalalala

[forest cave]

Just because we see a spear go through his neck and the light leave his eyes doesn't mean anything. Apparently we are children, and we need basic ideas spelled out to us in crayon every time anything shows up. Having to infer standard things that have been in fiction since fiction was a thing is too much.

[lament scaffold]

You're bringing in characters that have no relation to the topic xddd

[forest cave]

I'm sorry for fighting nonsense with more nonsense. I heard a saying about doing this with fire so assumed it applied here too.

[lament scaffold]

Oh yes, the titans mentioned as immortal now make every character in the story immortal

[forest cave]

They are not immortal though, sorry. We, as shown several times in the story, kill a lot of them.

Anyway: the state of not being fucking alive which the Titans of Exultia are clearly in, is functionally identical to the state of not being fucking alive that we see literally every single demon corpse in. Even ignoring Exultia we see the Great One's skeleton in 2016. It's dead. Any attempt at trying to make a distinction between it being "dead" and it being "destroyed" is, again, semantic nonsense ignoring the actual point at hand. Which is, of course, a tactic people use in debates when they don't know what they're talking about yet want to look like they do.

[lament scaffold]

Peak

[lament scaffold]

This is true, the loading screen says so; Ahzrak empowered his army, which includes the Titans.

[forest cave]

This changes absolutely nothing about what I stated.

[lament scaffold]

It is worth mentioning

[lament scaffold]

If you believe so

[forest cave]

I mean, not really lol.

The loading screen says he empowers them. The cutscene shows him resurrecting Titans. So he does both.

You see, when two things are said to have happened and those things don't contradict each other that usually means two things happen.

[latent fractal]

Did you write the post/PDF on Reddit?

[forest cave]

The lore guide? Yeah, that's me!

[latent fractal]

Bro. PLEASE tell me that is going to become a hardcover with images

I have only skimmed but one thing that made me sad was no images in the enemies section. I'm a "guide book kid". I used to love looking at car stats in the GTA books, etc. Just always looking for more lore

Kudos on the project. My son is reading it currently

[stoic river]

yo do you have that currently? I need a clear lore thing.

[forest cave]

Check the pinned messages for a link on my Tumblr.

[stoic river]

thank you!

[forest cave]

You'll be happy to know I am currently in the process of updating with images, though life shit has made the process take longer than I'd like.

[stoic river]

oh shit this is good. this is really gonna help me

[forest cave]

i.e.

[stoic river]

Love the layout for this

[forest cave]

Thank you!

[stoic river]

Np! Im dyslexic so i should have an easier time reading this

[latent fractal]

Hit points? Damage? Stuff like that ever planned?

I've always been a metric nerd lol

Also, I have a borderline disrespectful question....lol

Any change you are into magic the gathering, jkjk

[forest cave]

Not so much hit points and stuff - the guide is primarily focused on lore and narrative, so gameplay mechanics (beyond those that have some sort of impact on the story) are beyond the scope of the guide. I'd add more explicit measurements for things like height, but those aren't totally reliable thanks to model differences and first-person crap.

I actually am not into MTG! A lot of my friends are though. My interests mainly lie in writing and gaming.

But like. Digital gaming. Card games and stuff hurt my head a little.

[latent fractal]

I just always wanted a guide like this for mtg lotr

Lore

[forest cave]

I don't blame you haha. I hope someone makes one someday!

[lament scaffold]

Head canon

[lament scaffold]

One thing happens, the other you made up haha

[forest cave]

This is getting kind of sad but in the interest of the channel's topic I will humor this.
https://youtu.be/5phsMUzuWTo?t=3151
We explicitly see Ahzrak resurrecting dead Titans. We see Titans, motionless and lifeless, suddenly being energized and rising from said lifeless state, acknowledging Ahzrak, then turning to march toward the Sentinels. We explicitly see that the Titans that rise were previously laying on the ground before Ahzrak's magic allows them to get up.

This is Ahzrak resurrecting dead Titans. Arguing otherwise is being deliberately obtuse or contrarian.

[stoic river]

oh thats cool actually

[latent fractal]

Someone did a full path traced 5090 cutscene collection.

@forest cave any chance there is a "spoiler free" way to ready the latest and greatest codex you did but not get TDA spoilers?

I know I can read the previous version , but I assume you have updated things even outside of TDA inspires/tangential lore in the latest

Also, because I'm on this "build as many birdhouses as possible" kick when it comes to learning more ai tools, would you mind if I used your codes to feed/train an AI to basically teach me about doom lore

By building birdhouses, I mean I care more about learning to use the tools than I do how good of a product I make..lol

[forest cave]

Like the lore guide? Sorry, I haven't written a spoiler-free version.
If you're wanting to read the guide but avoid TDA spoilers, generally speaking most spoilers are contained to the following sections:

• Chronology: CHAPTER 3: THE NIGHT SENTINELS; INCORRUPTIBLE
• The Dark Realm: THE DEMONS OF HELL; DARK LORDS AND INDIVIDUALS; THE PRINCE
• The Dark Realm: THE CULTURE OF HELL; HELL'S GEOGRAPHY; THE FORSAKEN PLAINS
• The Dark Realm: THE CULTURE OF HELL; HELL'S ARTIFACTS; DREADSTEEL
• The Heavens: THE MAYKRS OF URDAK; URDAK'S MOST REVERED; THE KREED MAYKR
• The Heavens: THE CULTURE OF URDAK; URDAK'S ARTIFACTS; THE TETHER
• The Kingdom: THE SENTINELS OF ARGENT D'NUR; SENTINEL ROYALTY; THE KING
• The Kingdom: THE SENTINELS OF ARGENT D'NUR; SENTINEL ROYALTY; COMMANDER THIRA
• The Kingdom: THE SENTINELS OF ARGENT D'NUR; LEGENDS OF ARGENT D'NUR; THE DOOM SLAYER
• The Kingdom: THE SENTINELS OF ARGENT D'NUR; LEGENDS OF ARGENT D'NUR; SERRAT
• The Kingdom: THE SENTINELS OF ARGENT D'NUR; LEGENDS OF ARGENT D'NUR; COMMANDER VALEN
• The Kingdom: THE CULTURE OF ARGENT D'NUR; ARGENT D'NUR'S ARTIFACTS; THE HEART OF ARGENT
• The entirety of "THE COSMOS: A GUIDE ON THE COSMIC REALM"

This is not necessarily an exhaustive list. Small references to TDA enemies and certain parts of backstories are present elsewhere in the guide.

[latent fractal]

I'm terrified you typed that out by hand. Thank you. I deserve far less lol

[forest cave]

I can't control what you do with my text for your own personal use. I can personally say that I am not a fan of generative AI.
I don't really care about you feeding my text to an AI or whatever shit as long as it's not being posted online anywhere. I don't want my work being recycled into text generated by an AI and posted online, or feeding an AI others can use, is what I'm saying.

[forest cave]

It's no problem! If you use the Wayback Machine or some such shit you'll likely find an older version of the guide, but you're right I updated it with more than just TDA info.

Specifically the updated version has the cool header images and cover + "THE PUZZLING TIMELINE OF ARGENT D'NUR," which isn't actually TDA shit, and revised, edited wording on some entries.

[forest cave]

I will also say that I am active here very often in the server and am always more than happy to help educate or provide info/sources to answer questions on the topic of Doom's bullshit.

[latent fractal]

No worries. I've basically come up with a bunch of tasks I want to attempt with AI (different bird houses) and one of them is creating a conversational version of a large data set.

Learning by doing, if you will

My goal is not to release any public facing app or anything. Really just "teach me based on a large data set" + doom is interesting

[forest cave]

Yeah as long as nothing generated by my text is being posted online, and no tools to generaly stuff based on my text is being posted online, I'm cool with it.

[latent fractal]

Yeah, nothing will be public facing. I could just add easily (but far more controversially) chosen the Bible for instance

I'm just choosing the doom lore lol

[forest cave]

I'm working on the next updated version of the guide featuring more focus on the questionably canon shit but it's gonna take a while. Life shit + the difficulties of me slogging through Doom VFR is making it a task.

[latent fractal]

Canon shift? You mean the patch work to make it all a cohesive canon,l?

I think not enough people give credit to the fact that this all spawned from 2 pages of text (D1/D2)

(I was never cool enough to play Doom 64)

[forest cave]

I'm not quite going that far. I personally am not a believer in going that far with the canon. IMO, the modern comprehensive Doom canon is simply every mainline Doom game. That is to say Doom 1, 2, 64, 3, 2016, Eternal, TDA.

[latent fractal]

Oh, shit, not shift

[forest cave]

But there are other Doom entries, and they're worth mentioning. The Doom RPG titles, for example, IMO are blatantly not canon. But the modern games have ideas taken from them and with Doom's status as a multiverse, the RPG games shouldn't be entirely and conclusively disregarded.

[latent fractal]

Things that are questionably considered canon. I thought you meant that there was a shift in cannon (basically d2016 establishing that there was possibly a unified cannon, and dE carving room for that to be true)

[forest cave]

Under this idea, the guide considers the following Doom entries to be "questionable canon," and thus info from it is marked in orange:

• Final DOOM
• NRFTL
• SIGIL / II
• Legacy of Rust
• DOOM Resurrection
• DOOM RPG / DOOM II RPG
• DOOM VFR

[latent fractal]

Do you ever get really passionate people (boomers, like myself) that have strong opinions on how things should be, simply because of how things were when they were first exposed and committing commonly accepted fan theory as canon lol

(I watched it with my parents who had hills they were willing to die on regarding "what episode 7,8, and 9 were supposed to be" within the Star wars movies lol

(btw, if this meta discussion is not appropriate here, please let me know)

[forest cave]

Oh yeah all the time. A very strange example is I've seen a couple of people who virulently and obsessively HATED Doom: The Dark Ages, and seemingly mostly because of the Commander Thira character, and when seeing the notion that some fans enjoyed shipping Thira with Doomguy (which is like... shipping is an incredibly basic and common thing in fandom) they would practically melt down at the idea because it conflicted with their vision of Doomguy as a straight edge perfect Texan husband or whatever.

One of them got irritated at me for tagging a Doom post with "#flynn taggart" despite me not thinking he's named this. Like the name is sacred for Doom novel fans or something.

[forest cave]

Mods may disagree, but I personally think it's appropriate. I see this channel as for lore discussion or serious-minded discussion about Doom, lore or meta.

[latent fractal]

Yeah, every time I see someone hate a well received game, it almost always boils down to it not comporting with their religious or political leanings, or not aligning with fan fiction they either heard and didn't realize was fan fiction, or with fan fiction they created themselves and delusionally have canonized it in their head

Like, some statement a voice actor made 5 years ago could literally NEVER mean one iota of a fuck to me when I'm playing a game. Shit like that

[radiant snow]

There's also just not liking the game :p

[forest cave]

Yeah and I can get not liking ships or whatever. But Thira is a very, uh. She isn't particularly interesting, but she isn't really offensively terrible. She is just an okay, present side character. I can't really imagine hating her because what is there to hate? She serves her purpose.

It felt very forced. Very "WOMAN?? IN MY DOOM GAME??"

Also TDA is objectively awesome so like. Come on.

[lapis saffron]

oh are you actually playing VFR

[forest cave]

Nah, watching a longplay.

[lapis saffron]

ah okidoki

tbh VFR is so painful to play and then they randomly lock in for the last 2 levels and then it's over

would love to see a proper VR team have another swing at it

[latent fractal]

That's fine. But then trying to shoehorn "just not liking it" into some pretend bigbrain "you would understand if you were as evolved as me" plot that so many people build around there opinions... We need less of that

[radiant snow]

Yeah that's true

[forest cave]

My take is I can't imagine seriously disliking any Doom game because the mainline Doom franchise consistently rocks and we are appreciating a level of consistently high quality other franchises would kill for.

The closest I come to disliking a Doom game is I really hate most of Doom 2's level design and I think TNT Evilution is boring.

[radiant snow]

Well that's subjective

[forest cave]

Beyond this the worst Doom game is still like a 7/10 at the worst.

[lapis saffron]

i dont particularly enjoy tnt or the master levels but thats abt it

[forest cave]

Like IMO 2016 is overrated as fuck.

It's still, like, an 8.5/10 though.

[lapis saffron]

i really wanna find the sources for where the stories for the Master Levels for Doom II came from and if they're *used in official content because i think they are pretty inch resting

i know the stories are the actual plots of those levels, but i wanna see if they're from some random doomworld forum post or an actual release of the master levels

i hear they were on a "launcher" for it? but i can't find that anywhere. the ML in general have really poor archival

[forest cave]

Yeah that really sucks.

[lapis saffron]

would love to know if the chagrin plotline made it into anything official cause i think it's really fun

[lapis saffron]

me personally i would love a game with TDA gameplay but 2016 vibes

[forest cave]

I think I agree.

Generally speaking I love 2016 but compared to the other two I think its weapon balancing, difficulty, and various QOL shit is seriously lacking.

If we got a remaster with rebalanced weapons, RTX, respawning when falling, rebalanced Nightmare mode, I'd love that shit.

[lapis saffron]

i dont really mind 2016 weapon balancing cause doom has never been that balanced

and i find that other than quickly switching to them for a quick specific task i mostly can just ssg and ballista through eternal anyway

[forest cave]

Also I will say with VFR. Again. Listen I'm only seeing a few levels in. But shit like this is why I insist on "questionable canon" and not just saying it is canon.

VFR already contradicts, like, two pretty big things IMO very early on.

1. The constant usage of teleporters to go from place to place trivializes the fuck out of like half of 2016's levels and the Slayer's reasons for being in them.
2. I still believe the consciousness transference shit is not meant to be something you can casually and quickly do to a human right when they die. That is really dumb.

2016 emphasized that was a huge undertaking for Samuel Hayden to complete, and he's a fucking angel. Much less a human.

[lapis saffron]

i mean vfr does say peters is the only other guy to do it

the contradictions are in service of the gameplay

plus it was written after 2016 and it's the same team working on 2016

[forest cave]

Too bad the gameplay looks kind of lame.

[wintry perch]

as an ex Sonic fan, switching up to Doom really makes me appreciate when the worst games are just 7/10s and not 3/10s and the best games are 11/10 and not 8/10s

Doom fans sometimes don't know how good they have it, 3 back to back game releases with almost entirely different core gameplays and their all fun in their own way im cryne Sonic could never

[radiant snow]

Sonic slander

[lapis saffron]

it really is that "we dont know how to use vr" vibe lol

at least the bfgrenade launcher is fun

[latent fractal]

Overrated against everything TDA and eternal? Sure?

But for laying the groundwork for all the theory crafting that has been done since d64 and to establish a new "path forward" even if eternal had to do some heavy lifting, id say it's pretty based

Unless you just mean "purely as a game" because then yeah, it was mid

[forest cave]

I mean as a game, comparing it to Eternal and TDA.

2016's legacy is huge and it deserves a fuckton of credit for what it did. But I also think the game is the weakest of the modern trilogy both gameplay-wise and in its story.

[latent fractal]

When people complain about weapon balancing and I recall fond memories of spamming the SS every moment I had ammo and that other weapons were just to survive long enough until I had SS ammo lol

[quaint geyser]

gameplay-wise I agree, storywise I'm 50/50. TDA and Eternal certainly have more ambitious and "original" stories but 2016's is better written, paced and structured. It doesn't have tonal whiplash and isn't trying to do too many things at once like Eternal and it doesn't have pointless meandering on meaningless mcguffins and characters like TDA.

[forest cave]

I agree it isn't trying to do too many things at once - the problem is it often feels to me like it's not trying to do much of anything. It is a very safe Doom game.

I've said this before but I personally will value flawed stories with great ambition more than banal stories that execute it better.

[radiant snow]

I prefer good small stories that know their limits and don't overdo it to bad big stories that try to be grand but just fall flat

[latent fractal]

I think d2016 also had to accept that a MASSIVE part of its legacy audience had 1 or 2 pages of story (+more if they played d64) and they ACTIVELY hated the last time doom tried to "do something"

[radiant snow]

The DOOM 3 expansion packs vs TAG 2 is really the best example of this I can think of. Basically nothing happens in the expansion packs for DOOM 3 up until the end of RoE, while TAG 2 is a pretty big storyline, but DOOM 3's expansions don't shit themselves trying to tell a story while TAG 2 massacres great potential into a really mid adventure

So if I was forced to tell you which one I prefer, it's gonna be the former

[forest cave]

Well the scope and ambition are different things. I agree in the sense that Eternal concerns itself too much with the epic mythology God shit without properly telling the story beforehand to lead up to it.

[latent fractal]

I also think the shock value of "heaven is actually where the bad guys live" did a TON of heavy lifting lol

[radiant snow]

Sentinel Prime onwards basically carries Eternal's story for me

I think everything that happens before that point is boring

[latent fractal]

It was slow burn lol

[radiant snow]

With no real climax :p

[forest cave]

Eternal's scope is perhaps too big. But the ambition to flesh out Doom as a universe rather than just a setting defined by Mars and Hell is admirable. To me it is really cool because the original Doom was made by a bunch of fucking nerds who made it based on their DnD campaigns and "bro what if Evil Dead and Aliens was a game?"

To me Eternal fulfills the spirit of Doom perfectly. It is unapologetically a nerd-ass videogame inspired by shit like Pacific Rim and Warhammer, and it seeks to expand Doom's umbrella as it injects more of this culture into it.

2016 is a bit more cohesive as a story, but Eternal is what got me into the franchise's universe. Despite its flaws it sets a hell of a framework for this pretty cool setting. TDA is an example of what kind of awesome shit you can make out of that framework.

[latent fractal]

I don't know, the whole reveal of the not so benevolent nature of the maykers was pretty big

The two biggest things for me. Souls fuel all uac endeavours and God(s) = bad guys were pretty pivotal

Like, oh shit moments as I was playing

[forest cave]

The Maykrs are the second-best creative decision the modern games have made.

[radiant snow]

Yeah but that ain't really a climax

[forest cave]

(The first is revealing the Slayer is Doomguy.)

[radiant snow]

It doesn't conclude the story up to that point in any real way. You're just told that the angels are dicks which is what Sentinel Prime said to begin with

[latent fractal]

They took such an accepted Western belief (God/Father is good/benevolent) and repainted it as the genesis for all we know about evil. I feel like it was a visceral moment

[radiant snow]

I mean like, the fact that the story never really has a proper climax for me. Icon's awakening? Too sudden and barely any build-up aside from like three sentences from Hayden. Its death? It wasn't even the main antagonist. Okay, so Khan's death, right? Well the game doesn't even focus on that too much because there's the Icon to kill!!! I literally cannot tell you where Eternal's story concludes the same way 2016's does when you destroy the Mastermind with the BFG

[latent fractal]

Well, really a global belief, but I digress

[forest cave]

It's a very cool addition to the universe. It's been discussed already, but while the whole "Doom is a Christian game" thing was funny, I think Eternal and TDA reframe things a lot to paint a very critical view of religion. Eternal and TAG posit very firmly that the worship of the Maykrs has done nothing but hurt humanity and we should believe in ourselves before we believe in salvation from magical beings.

[latent fractal]

I just think taking a story that a majority of human beings take for granted (all, not just ones in the target audience) and being like "yeah, sike!!!" Was one of the boldest things I've seen in a game

[quaint geyser]

It kind of had to be though, and I honestly don't think anyone would've wanted all the stuff that has come to be introduced in Eternal and TDA in 2016. It would've been way too early, especially for something advertised at the time as a full-on reboot.

2016 delivers on exactly what it wants to be, and in that regard I find it to be more fulfulling everytime I replay it. There's so much depth to all the inner workings of the UAC and how they operate, along with all the mysteries Hell had to offer. It's a borderline perfect depiction of those two settings imo just in terms of how they make me feel.

I get what you mean by "flawed stories with poor execution" over "banal stories with good execution" but i think calling 2016's story banal is strange when it's still generally considered the best by most people. That first person only perspective was novel back then when every game at the time was trying to be all cinematic and taking away control from the player, and that kind of storytelling is novel compared to the former approach since it's such a rarity

[radiant snow]

It is absolutely a really cool plot twist and something I like about Eternal's story

[latent fractal]

Yeah, that's not a novel idea, but the fact that they were like "bro, God is the bad guy" was like "damn Hugo, simmer down" moment for me

[forest cave]

I think, on a thematic level, it is much more fitting to tell a story that frames humanity as the focus. Like specifically Thira's speech in TDA:

“We will always be a people of faith. But we must consider now who we will put that faith in. And I say to you there is no better place to turn to... than ourselves.”

To me that is indicative of Doom's theme - the Slayer fights for humanity first and foremost, we gotta have the agency to cut our own path forward.

I prefer this as a major theme for Doom over "Hell bad Heaven good," kinda just, y'know, the default.

[latent fractal]

Souls fuel hell/argent/uac was also from eternal right?

[forest cave]

Yes. Eternal is what introduced the idea that Hell is powered by human souls, and that this is using a process similar to the Argent Energy we see in 2016.

We could infer ideas like this in the classic games, like the emphasis on slaughterhouses dedicated to torture and all that shit. But Eternal is what concretely made this a thing.

That said the message is only half right. 2016's Argent Energy does not contain human souls. Only the energy fueling demons themselves, which comes from Nekravol, has this component.

[quaint geyser]

isn't the Argent Tower just the UAC's version of Nekravol. I'm pretty sure the Argent Tower's codex even somewhat alludes to Nekravol

[forest cave]

Yes. It's heavily implied Hayden based the designs for the Argent Tower off of the Nekravol Citadel. 2016 implies he would've found tablets to help him do this, but Eternal's revelations entail he would probably just... remember it.

Unless he doesn't have his memory, if you have my line of thinking. In which case it's more a subconscious thing.

[quaint geyser]

probably a mix of both I'd say. That's always my favourite thing sequels do, when they recontextualize such small moments and/or dialogue from the first entry

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-comendo-picoca-gif-9669437860846841235

love reading all of this, about to scroll up

[verbal radish]

same

[latent fractal]

Just wait until I release monologue.ai jkjk

[forest cave]

Threw this together real quick as a shitty little guide.

"Argent Energy" functionally does not refer to a specific substance, but rather it's an umbrella term denoting Wraith Energy that has been tampered with somehow to make it more powerful.

[latent fractal]

Okay, yeah that tracks with what I remember. Glad I haven't forgotten too much

We don't really see the UAC after 2016, right?

[forest cave]

Not pictured in that graph is "Argent-Synthesis," a form of synthetic Argent Energy Hayden creates to help the ARC in Eternal. He derives it from the Demonic Crucible, which seemingly means it is not Wraith Energy like 2016's Argent is.

[forest cave]

We're fighting them in Eternal.

[latent fractal]

At which stage? (Part, not level)

I remember oneshotting the Arachnetron and that is the last direct uac interaction I remember

[raw pine]

THIS, THIS, and THIS

[forest cave]

Okay I'm being pedantic, sorry for that.
But we're fighting them for the entirety of Eternal. Like every time we fight a demon. Eternal is around 14 years after 2016 - in that time the UAC has essentially become a cultist organization and was actively controlled by cultist operatives like Deag Ranak. By the time we get to Eternal the UAC is actively producing propaganda trying to convince Earth's population to accept Hell's rule over the planet.

The UAC and Hell are basically the same entity by the time we get to Eternal. In TAG1, we load onto the Atlantica and Hayden says "The UAC won't hand over the Seraphim without a fight..." and then a shitload of demons start spawning onto the level. He's not talking about offscreen evil humans - he's talking about the demons you're fighting. They are, effectively, UAC employees, because the UAC is a demonic organization.

The Cultist Base IIRC even has intercom voice messages meant for demons. "All mortally challenged personnel, please be advised..."

[quaint geyser]

That's hilarious actually, love that

[latent fractal]

Oh, I understand what you meant now.. Basically once they reveal the soul/suffering/demon link, you then accept that any demon you fight as because a soul suffered, and was then turned to flight for hells agenda, but uac was exploiting hell, so basically all demons are uac security detail

You meant we are fighting uac from a meta standpoint

[forest cave]

Moreso just that the demons are now affiliated with the UAC during Eternal, as the UAC is now a demon-run organization.

[quaint geyser]

i wonder which demon they get to take over the intercoms

maybe Barons? They seem like they'd be good commanders

totally not in an abusive way too

[forest cave]

I headcanon they have some sort of Spiderdemon-like Arachnotron mutant that's hooked up to a bunch of computers, and it's the woman you see on the propaganda holograms, generating a human to speak its bullshit.

[forest cave]

They probably can be, though I think the Order of the Hell Knights in general probably don't concern themselves with shit Imps are doing or whatever. I think commanders are probably Archviles, Spiderdemons, Tyrants - elite demons that can either control lesser demons, or order them around by scaring the fuck out of them.

[quaint geyser]

they do have big brains, maybe they have the brain capacity to talk but not the mouths

[forest cave]

I've always believed they do - I wrote a lot of Spiderdemon dialogue for my E3M8 story.

[raw pine]

mono make a list of your headcanons because they’re spectacular

[quaint geyser]

yeah do that, I'm actually quite curious myself

[forest cave]

i.e.

[forest cave]

Hmm, let's see.

[quaint geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/writing-fire-gif-523038869044733220

holy shit they're still typing lmao

[forest cave]

It's not as much as you think. I spend a lot of it organizing.

[quaint geyser]

Ah

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/like-this-randall-thymes-thymes-like-plummcorp-gif-12765240402723232380

5 Hours Later…

[quaint geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/let-him-cook-gif-4883478538038806762

[forest cave]

Doomguy:

• Doomguy's name is William James Blazkowicz III.
• Doomguy despaired when he saw the corpse of Daisy, not because of the rabbit herself; but because when he left for Mars, he made a show of leaving Daisy for his baby boy, who, wanting to be a hero like his dad, said he'd protect Daisy with his life.
• Doomguy would soon rush to his home to find his wife and son dead. His son's fist is impossibly clenched, and still has rabbit fur entangled.
• He spent around maybe 8 years with the Sentinels before he became the Slayer.
• He and Thira were a couple before he became the Slayer - this was how he was brought to King Novik's attention.
• The Slayer's lack of speech in the modern games isn't because of the Divinity Machine or some noble mission, but because of serious mind-fuckery inflicted on him by the Maykr Tether in TDA. If the Maykrs hadn't brainwashed him, the Slayer would probably be talking and capable of holding friendships or relationships.

Demons:

• Most Arachnotrons die before reaching adulthood, crumbling under the weight of their own psychic bullshit. The ones who don't die become commanders of great renown, and those are Spiderdemons.
• The Aranea Imperatrix in Doom 2016 is the last classic Spiderdemon, and the most powerful. Nearing death thanks to her own massive brain, she figured out how to ascend by dispersing her mind into the brains of the demons she controlled, keeping her alive after her body's death. This incredible and wide-spanning control is what gave her the accrued power to become Dark Lord of the Fourth Age after her predecessor, the Maledict, died.
• Archviles are a rare Imp Stalker mutation. The gene that causes this mutation is also present in modern Imps, but for them it produces Summoners.
• By proxy, the Imp is the first true demon species, derived from the first world Hell conquered. Pinkies and Cacodemons come from that same world. In my mind, this world would eventually become the setting of Inferno in Doom 1993, and I wrote a story concept for a prequel focused on it.
• Ahzrak was genetically engineered by the Hell Priests as the perfect successor to Davoth, which is why he's one of the only demons to have a somewhat human-like appearance in his face.

Doom's universe:

• The hologram ghosts of the Sentinels aren't ghosts, but tech. They're "recordings" of a Sentinel's personality, existing as an AI copy. They're normally meant to pass down knowledge and wisdom, as a comfort to the Sentinels who feared death. Thus, Valen's hologram ghost in TAG2 is something he left behind to give the Slayer his hammer while he could keep going to rally up the Sentinels.
• There is no true Heaven or Hell. In a natural scenario, when you die, you die and that's it. Any form of persisting after death is an affront to nature.
• The Father didn't just order himself stolen from Urdak to flee from Hell, but because he grew disgusted with the Maykrs and their growing treachery in his absence. He knew they would suffer the Transfiguration in their absence; it was his intent. They had forsaken their God.
• The Father was justified in betraying Davoth. Davoth was going insane.
• The Father created the Earthly Realms, not Davoth, using the Luminarium.

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/worried-scared-oh-no-stop-it-fearful-gif-12534009

[raw pine]

cool stuff! i like a lot of these ideas. i wonder what that prequel story is about…

[forest cave]

I dunno it was probably really fucking sick though.

[raw pine]

perhaps we should use a motherdemon to resurrect it?

[quaint geyser]

I agree with most of these except for a few things (but none of my takes matter since it's all headcanon at the end of the day, tho if u want to here my shitty arguments I'd be happy to provide)

[forest cave]

I posted the prequel idea here but I'll keep from posting the whole thing again so as not to spam with what is technically fanfiction.

#the-codex message
Oh I'll link to it though. Found it.

[forest cave]

I'm fine with that.

[raw pine]

dimspree read that it’s Peam ®️

[forest cave]

I also forgot my biggest headcanon, though really it's more a theory. I can explain in more detail but the TLDR is:

• Maykrs have Cosmic Realm code in them. It's why they Transfigure.
• That's because Davoth made them.
• Davoth was driven insane by the Cosmic Realm.
• Specifically through his Crucible, which was from this realm.
• This makes him the "dark priest" corrupted by the Crucible mentioned in 2016's tree crap.

[raw pine]

happened to jay once

[quaint geyser]

I headcanon Doomguy's name as Flynn Taggart, I know there's a book in Eternal implying it was retconned but I just really like that name for him, it sounds so fitting to me.

I don't know if I agree necessarily with Thira and the Slayer being straight-up a couple, but I definitely agree they had some kind of friendship prior to TDA
.. that's pretty much it. Honestly thought it'd be way more lmao

[forest cave]

Flynn Taggart is a pretty fun name and I don't object to it. I just haven't read the novels.

And I still like to think he's Blazko's descendant.

[quaint geyser]

I haven't either, I just heard that's his name in the novels and it just really grew on me. Maybe I've also never cared too much for the Wolfenstein connection

though my own headcanon is that the Cosmic Realm is the Quake realm so maybe im a hypocrite lol

[forest cave]

I like the Wolfenstein connection when it's nothing more than his great-grandad or whatever fighting Nazis.

[quaint geyser]

yeah like that I'm okay with, I'm not a fan of when people try to connect it with the modern Wolfensteins

[forest cave]

My Doom II Nazi Codex entry is basically what I think the Wolfenstein connection amounts to. Just a cool little thing.

[forest cave]

Definitely not. I do not find those compatible with the Doom canon at all.

[quaint geyser]

i love the charm you gave to these btw, sounds like something that would actually be written back in the old id days

[forest cave]

Hahaha thanks. I really need to finish Doom II's.

[latent fractal]

Reading the head canon makes me want another game like d3 where you are literally just a human. I want another game as the space marine lolm

[quaint geyser]

with the reputation the modern games have, i doubt they'd go down that road again unfortunately

[wintry perch]

i will always be a proud Sonic slanderer

[radiant snow]

I respect that

[lapis saffron]

modern ones definitely couldn't be connected

if we take the expansion packs for wolf as canon tho then Wolf3D and Spear of Destiny are most likely in the doom continuity

[stoic river]

Is there an explanation for the specter whiplashes? I don't see anything about them in the codex

[stoic river]

or was it more of a "let do this it would be funny" thing

[raw pine]

most likely the latter lmao

the spectre codex:

”Born from an ancient screed of forbidden psychomancy, it was by the tomeic inscriptions of the occultic Six Sealed Eyes that the Spectre was made manifest. Divined in desecrated ruins untouched by light for an eternity, warlocks of an abandoned sovereign house unearthed the verboten scripture, seeking rebellion by means of black magick against the rule of the infernal Archdemons. By way of sorcery were numerous abominations and ungodly forms brought forth into the Hellscape - among them, the Spectre; an ethereal amalgam of the Pinky. For their role in these miscreations, the Archdemons would enact as retribution against its insurgents an unspeakable punishment, a decree of suffering that would be without end.”

im guessing the six sealed eyes are the archdemons? idk but i think ive never seen that name used for them nor for any other codex. interesting name

[stoic river]

hm. I guess specter whiplash is for shits and giggles

[quaint geyser]

funny how this is so completely different from 2016's spectres

[stoic river]

there seems to be a little bit of dissconnect

[violet sundial]

I wish they gave the hellknights horns and hairy legs

In dark ages

[raw pine]

they still could. a flashback level isnt entirely out of the possibility

[stoic river]

I like to think theres different sub species of the demons so we can have a bunch of varients

[quaint geyser]

I see the appeal but I think making them look like mini-barons again would make Hell Knights lose their uniqueness

besides I like the more reptilian look for em, it suits them better

[stoic river]

it is really nice

[raw pine]

this is actually canon (i think)

theres two ways you can look at this

[stoic river]

I believe it is personally

[quaint geyser]

also another thing, even if they did bring that design back, I'd rather them base it off the Gladiator rather than that concept art

[stoic river]

because why do the pinkys look like that in dark ages? Theres gotta be a pug situation going on in hell because wtf happened

[quaint geyser]

well since TDA's Hell has this seemingly more organized/army like structure, and Pinkies are described more like animals, it'd make sense they'd be used like horses. After Ahzrak's death though it seems Hell will go back to the more traditionally brutish ways where they just let the demons run wild with no real order, and so it's likely Pinkies just evolved out of that style back into their own creatures that do things for themselves

[raw pine]

1. the imp approach

2016 mentions that the summoners are highly evolved versions of imps. this confirms that the summoner is technically a sub species of the imp family

2. the rpg approach

doom rpg features tons of different demons that use the classic sprites. for example, the cacodemon is in doom RPG, but there are two different species of cacodemons (three in total) that you can kill in rpg. one is named the malwrath, the weakest of the cacodemon group, and he’s yellow. (there are typically 3 different demons in a class in doom rpg, ranging from weakest to strongest.) the last is named the wretched (no relation to the wretch) which is a blue variant, and also the strongest of the three.

3. (bonus) “one” hell

ultimately, doom’s massive hell is one of a kind, literally. there is only one hell and one urdak. this means that every hell in every doom game, book, movie, maybe even the unreleased (i think) doom ii rpg comic shares the same hell. the abominable doom annihilation? same hell. the doom books? same hell. the comic? same hell.

different doomguys, one davoth, one hell, MANY demon species.

[stoic river]

Which makes a LOT of sense actually

[stoic river]

the summoner is part of the imp family!? I would figure archvile family

[raw pine]

and your actually not wrong

if we were to assume summoners are part of the archvile family, imps would be related to all of them. i think this is canon, but my good friend mono can confirm.

this is more headcanon, but i think imp’s are the common ancestor of most demons in hell. their entire family reaches to different species, most specifically the archvile

[quaint geyser]

the Imp Stalkers using Arch-Vile sounds is pretty much confirmation if anything

not to mention their similar behavior to Eternal's Arch-Vile

[raw pine]

mono and ethan are more enveloped in the demon family tree so i’d talk to one of them about this

[raw pine]

this too! and the similar, fire launching traits

you could also very well much group prowlers into this, and maybe even spectres/spectre whiplashes

[stoic river]

sounds about right tbh

[raw pine]

this is more headcanon too but i think hell knights and barons are related to the imp

[stoic river]

i really like having people to talk to when it comes to digging into the demon part of doom tbh

[stoic river]

all roads lead back to imp

[quaint geyser]

ehhh.. maybe. The only real connection i see is their both bipedal but seems a bit flimsy

[raw pine]

which is fair

[quaint geyser]

then again the cycloptic titans are confirmed related to cacodemons so who really knows lol

[stoic river]

this family tree is really weird

[quaint geyser]

they're probably all connected in some way since they're all demons at the end of the day but some definitely moreso than others

[raw pine]

ah, i would like to chime in. i thought this was the case but mono brought up a good point that the ‘cycloptic titan’ thing was probably a reference to the astral dreadnought, a monster in dnd that the cacodemon’s design was pulled from. it still could be, but just bringing that up

[raw pine]

yeah i love it too. i think this channel’s my favorite and always typically better than general

[quaint geyser]

had no idea about that, that's gotta be hella obscure lol

[quaint geyser]

it's fun to talk about doom lore without constantly getting the carmack quote spammed at u

[stoic river]

I haven't sat down and actually read the codex since i struggle with dyslexia. I'm gonna be looking at mono's doom guide. Maybe i should listen to a video reading all the codex

[raw pine]

look up astral dreadnought on google and you can definitely see it

[raw pine]

i dont know if there’s a lot of those but i’d love to see someone narrate mono’s guide

the guide by the way is awesome

[stoic river]

I want someone to narrate the guide. I was talking more like someone reading off the game codex.

If it was all written in comic sans i could actually read it with no trouble 😭

i might be able to find a clean codex reading

[quaint geyser]

you could also watch Skyrionn's lore videos

[stoic river]

Oh? Let me look.

These look good. I'll watch this soon

[lapis saffron]

the doom ii rpg comic isn't unreleased it came on the iphone version

it's also the only time a chaingunner canonically appears in doom ii rpg content

[raw pine]

ah my bad i thought it wasnt released. oh well

[raw pine]

ill have to read it cause i loooove chaingunners

[lapis saffron]

it was lost for a while

oh shit imgur deleted the doom ii rpg comic wtf and nobody archived it

[lapis saffron]

https:// docs.google. com/presentation/d/1e0EKtLXmY0CEHvVCNRBk3LxLnoMlrrBJZn6eNJrakLE/edit?slide=id.gd8534c192d_0_135#slide=id.gd8534c192d_0_135

heres a google slides of the comic i found

[raw pine]

thanks, ill read it when i can. because it was lost for a while im guessing thats why i thought it was unreleased

[stoic river]

ah hell yeah

damn doesnt work

[lapis saffron]

just assemble the link in the searchbar, i left spaces

[stoic river]

There we go! Thanks!

[forest cave]

Okay so this is kind of weird.

I do not think the cycloptic Titans in TDA are related to the Cacodemons.

[quaint geyser]

Okay but why tho like seems like a blatantly obvious connection?? 😭

[forest cave]

If that is what you're referring to. I think it's a separate species we haven't seen (one that is, as Soap mentioned, a reference to the Astral Dreadnought).

[quaint geyser]

Is it cuz of the cyborg aspect to those titans? That'd be my guess

[forest cave]

Moreso that the cyclops Titans appear to be a different version of the same Titan genus.
Doom tends to use "Titan" to either mean a specific family of demons (being, the large humanoids Hell uses as slave labor and war machines) or a general term to denote a giant monster (i.e. the Old One, probably the Icon of Sin).

That family of demons is still around in Eternal, but Eternal's Codex says:

It is said that the Cacodemon bears some resemblance to the cycloptic titans of ancient Hell lore, leading Sentinel scholars to believe that the forgotten titans may yet live on in some disembodied form.

[quaint geyser]

Ahhhh okay

[forest cave]

Which tells me the Cacodemon ancestor is a different species entirely that is now extinct.

[quaint geyser]

I guess i always just focused on the blatant similarities but yeah that makes sense

[forest cave]

I don't blame you. TDA also revealing Titans are from another world is an interesting detail to throw things in there.

[quaint geyser]

Wonder how they'd even be able to differentiate them then if they ever showed up

Now im imagining a kaiju cacodemon with a body. Not a pleasant thought

[forest cave]

I also feel the Cacodemon ancestor is likely much smaller than a Titan itself. We've already seen a humanoid Cacodemon cousin species and it's not that big.

[quaint geyser]

Wait what where? When was that a thing? Damn, I must be a fake fan, that is news to me

[forest cave]

Well, it's not necessarily confirmed but IMO it's very obvious going by the design.

[quaint geyser]

Fuck off vega

Ohhhhhh

Yeah no i see it yeah. Even got caco mandibles

[forest cave]

Compare to the Doom 2016 Cacodemon design.

• Same eye
• Very similar teeth formation, side mandibles
• Same skin color
• 2016 Cacodemond design added atrophied limbs, suggesting species that do use them
• Both use the same methods of predation (firing toxic bile from orifices)

[quaint geyser]

Also they're both fat (i kid, i cant believe i never made that connection before)

[forest cave]

Yeah haha.

IMO the 2016 Manc is only called a Mancubus because it fills that role to the player. In-universe it's a Cacodemon species.

If I had to guess, I'd say different environments caused different traits to emerge. Normal Cacodemons are used to dank, murky environments where the ability to float suits them and prey is simple enough that they didn't need to get more intelligent, or articulate with limbs, but hard to catch.

Whereas the fatties, maybe they eventually ended up with slower metabolisms, more complex prey or environments unsuitable for floating, shit like that.

[quaint geyser]

I mean fair it would explain why it looks nothing like any of the other Mancubi types.

Guess that type got driven into extinction after 2016 like most of TDA's demons

[forest cave]

Either that or they just happened not to be there. Everyone accepts the extinction thing but an equally likely possibility for certain game-exclusive demons is regional presence.

2016's portals between Mars and Hell tended to land around the bordering area between the Great Steppe and the Umbral Plains, so it's very possible that 2016 Mancubi are just native to this area, and weren't around for Eternal because they just... weren't there.

Similarly Doom 3's Hell is geographically very different from what the rest of the series depicts. The fucked up strange-looking demons of Doom 3 are probably indigenous to this strange area of Hell, and perhaps they don't leave very often.

[quaint geyser]

also true

[forest cave]

This is actually a sincere theory I have though. The vast majority of Doom 3's enemies are very pale, and I think it's likely because they live in the Maledict's region, which is without much natural light other than fire.

Contrast with Kadingir Sanctum which is relatively bright.

Also note that the leader of Hell defines who is conscripted into war. Ahzrak for example made the unique choice to employ Arachnotrons as long-range glass cannon units instead of traditionally beefing them up with metal legs and plasma guns and shit.

If the 2016 Manc is a Cacodemon that means it is likely an animal rather than a person. That means it needs to be domesticated and trained.

So it is possible that the Aranea Imperatrix specifically gave the order to employ them as war units, and when she died this practice stopped. (Since she likely had no successor.)

[quaint geyser]

You know you've put way more thought into all this than I ever have, and that is saying a lot, I thought I was obsessed

[forest cave]

This shit's always in my head. It's practically second nature to me now. Several times here I've answered questions for people, typing on my phone with one hand while I was actively working or developing with the other.

That is not meant to be a brag. Moreso just - I think about it a lot, and in the library of my head stupid Doom lore shit is at the easy access shelf.

(Now, the super unimportant shit like how to swim or how to do my taxes? Those books are collecting dust in the backroom.)

[quaint geyser]

I'm the same but way more cynical about it. I have a very love/hate relationship with DOOM's lore as a whole, but that only makes it even more intriguing and fun yap about

[quaint geyser]

Yoooo same

[dusky haven]

This would hold weight too. It’s not as if you’re going to see a blind, pale caecilian that has adapted to life on a cave wall smack bang on the red dirt of the Australian outback

[sleek cypress]

Never go in against a Caecilian when death is on the line

[lapis saffron]

Lowk I wish id waited for the Cabal series to be finished before adding it to the Doom II Masters Levels

One of the unfinished levels was about an Ancient Cacodemon Empire which would have been a fun bit of continuity with that Eternal codex

[violet sundial]

Does doomguy meet the wretch before or after the priests trapped him and the sentinels in hell

[small herald]

It’s honestly hard to say. The 2016 Testaments give most people the idea that it was after he was trapped in Hell (post-Betrayal), but Hugo once stated that it was “during his time with the sentinels)

It could easily be before the Betrayal

[quaint geyser]

I mean I think the fact there's a whole statue of it in the last level of 2016, which is a portion of Argent D'Nur corrupted into Hell, tells us it was probably before if the Sentinels had time to build a statue of it

[lament scaffold]

It's before the betrayal; there's a Codex page showing the Slayer fighting alongside the Sentinels in that armor, unless they retcon it

[lapis saffron]

They will retcon it

[quaint geyser]

wouldn't be the first time

[lapis saffron]

lol tru

[wintry perch]

they will lowkey go "oh there's two Slayers" or something

cause that seems to be Dooms solution to lore contradictions, just state that there's more of a single thing, boom

from planet Earths to more

[quaint geyser]

they already did that

[lapis saffron]

When

[quaint geyser]

Davoth

[pale shore]

Do the demons actually fear the Doomslayer?
It is stated multiple times in the lore that he is the "only one they fear" but in every game the demons just proceed to throw themselves mindlessly at a moving meat grinder without a second thought

Or the Dark Lords just send out mind controlled hordes of demons to die because it's their turn to die and they die because they knew they would die anyway?

[winter oxide]

If they will die anyway might as well take their shot at killing him, they hate him just as much as they're afraid of him

[wintry perch]

"SLAYER, COME FACE ME" and it's legitimately (1) imp

those moments after you clear the arena in Eternal and one fearless fodder is still trying

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[quaint geyser]

still got more balls than Marauders

[wintry perch]

true

virgin marauder:
-Oh oh my invincible shield please protect me!
-Dog be a good boy and be more aggressive than I could ever be
-Guys can someone shoot my shield so the dog activates please?
-Im going to wait to attack im too scaaared

chad imp
-RAHHH SLAYER FACE ME 1V1 IDC THAT YOU WIPED OUT AN ARMY COME HEREEE

[gentle crescent]

How come Dark Ages's codex entry says the aracnotron is blind despite the model having eyes?

[tired sand]

They spot obstacles on their path using their psionic abilities and having eyes doesn't mean they can use that organ to see

Basically just blind yes but not in the traditional way

[gentle crescent]

Why would they ever lose function of their eyes?

Evolved in a dark cave enviroment?

Is any place really dark in hell? Theres fire practically everywhere

[tired sand]

Probably could be the reason behind their higher psionic abilities and in general glass cannon like bodies

[gentle crescent]

That does not engage with my question

Or make any sense

Why would they have weaker bodies for being blind lol

[pale shore]

If their hatred balances out their fear for him, then they cancel each other out, thus seeing the slayer as yet another target on their radar

in the end, what even makes them fear him? Death? We learn demons are not afraid of death. Then perhaps they feel his connection to the Dark Lord he got from the divinity machine, but then again, why?

[tired sand]

Arachnotrons in general have weaker bodies. In TDA they're explicitly stated to be naturally sightless, which could be compared to bats even though they have low vision not zero vision. As I said, their psionic abilities have been proven to be a burden upon their bodies which might be the reason why they're fragile and use psionic waves to locate their enemies and understand their surroundings instead of using their eyes, which could've hindered their vision over time to the point which made them naturally blind. That's my takeaway so yeah

[gentle crescent]

Demon hierarchy is based on strength and power

[tired sand]

@forest cave what's your explanation behind Arachnotron's blindness?

[pale shore]

That doesn't explain anything

[gentle crescent]

He is an incredibly powerful godly being who wishes to wipe out the demons

Obviously any demon that has decent cognitive ability will fear him

[pale shore]

Yeah but from Dr. Richardson's logs we learn the demons do not fear death

[gentle crescent]

for the lower ones it doesnt even matter if they feel fear because the high ranking demons command them anyways

[gentle crescent]

not when theyre being forced to invade by a higher being

theyre creatures that need to survive, they feel fear

[pale shore]

this is nonsense but

okay

[gentle crescent]

how so?

[forest cave]

The TDA explanation makes sense to me, mapping out their surroundings psionically. Not the same species but the Eternal variants control their limbs through that sort of shit IIRC.

[tired sand]

Yeah very much yeah

[gentle crescent]

Okay, but why would they lose function on their clearly visible eyes?

[forest cave]

Could be a function of evolution or environmental change. Or they used to use their eyes but now they're being genetically modified. There's always weird little disconnects like that.

You could also see the eyes as the organ through which they sense the world around them psionically.

[gentle crescent]

They're not being genetically modified the UAC has nothing to do with this

[forest cave]

I don't mean by the UAC. I mean by Hell.

[gentle crescent]

Hell doesn't do that, not directly

[forest cave]

Hell genetically modifies demons. Stone Imps for example.

Stone Imps are a deviant mutation of the imp species. Ahzrak's war priests breed these creatures in subterranean vats of biomatter

[gentle crescent]

that's selective breeding

not genetic modification

[forest cave]

They're mutating existing Imp species into different types of Imps.

Whatever the word is, man - the point is, Hell modifies Hell species to suit different war needs.

[tired sand]

Also each region in Hell sports variants of the same existing species like for example the Baron of Hell and Mancubus

so there's that

[gentle crescent]

yes thats divergent evolution

its obvious and doesnt need to be stated

[gentle crescent]

That would suggest dark cave like enviroments then, i guess?

we don't really see any darkness in hell because theres light sources everywhere

hell is infinitely expansive and we haven't seen much of it anyways, but still

The spider mastermind has functioning eyes and its clearly related to the aracnotron species

[tired sand]

But I wouldn't say that's the sole reason reasoning behind the non functionality of their eyes but more like a mix of both environments and hindering their own vision by just using psionic abilities

[forest cave]

Well, going by Earth-like logic, sure, but that's shit like bats developing echolocation. I'd see it more like Arachnotrons developing psionic environmental perception.

[gentle crescent]

for what reason

[sour sky]

This is an interesting conversation........

[forest cave]

A reason that is beyond the scope of care that we Earthly beings have in regards to Hell? Place is huge and the species diversity is even bigger. I don't really think it matters in regard to our reasons for killing them. That is to say I think a lot of the mechanics of Hell and its demons are inscrutable and shit we're not meant to understand because it's an alien realm operating on alien logic.

[gentle crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/robot-look-robot-robot-stare-gif-7330364892007281199

be so for real right now

is your response to someone questioning a lore bit always "ermmm le hell is unknown!!!"

what a way to kill off any interest in debating the lore of this franchise

[tired sand]

When the lore itself has always been so open for fans to interpret it in anyway they want, I think you can just come up with any theory it'll be true because devs themselves support the notion of headcanons and stuff

[gentle crescent]

They shut down my idea for it and then tried to kill off any further discussion for no reason at all

[tired sand]

Also there hasn't been any direct explanation for why Arachnotrons are sightless in the first place so yeah

[tired sand]

mono isn't entirely wrong because we don't know shit about Hell even after 30+ years of this franchise. As I said, you're open to making theories as long as they're cool and plausible within the established lore of the series

[gentle crescent]

I was clearly trying to engage with the material

[tired sand]

You can still lol it's chill

[gentle crescent]

I don't need your permission

I just felt the need to call out that illogical behaviour

[tired sand]

Whatever you say

[forest cave]

When did I shut down any of your ideas?

[gentle crescent]

You just said "no because that's how it works in the real world" and then proceeded to not elaborate as to why or give another explanation

[forest cave]

I fail to see how that was me shutting you down in any way.

[gentle crescent]

Anyways I'd like to talk about something else because there is no reason to hang on this issue further

I made a phylogenetic tree of imps and I'd like some other opinions on it

I made it in paint so it obviously looks shitty but that's part of the charm

[forest cave]

I see the Archvile and Summoner as similar mutations to the two different Imp species.

[gentle crescent]

I personally don't think the Archvile is an Imp but I do believe it is closely related to them

[forest cave]

Supposing it's some sort of like latent mutant gene that exhibits increassed control over Hell energy and generally being all fucking badass, then I think, if 2016 says the Summoner is a mutation of the modern Imp, then I think the Archvile is the Imp Stalker equivalent.

The result just changes based on the species difference.

[gentle crescent]

All demons possess hell energy and varying degrees of control over it

[forest cave]

Well yes. That's why I say increased. Imps control fire but Archviles have a much higher degree of control over it.

[gentle crescent]

Iirc the hell knight in 2016 will rarely shoot a small fireball at the player

unlike their eternal and TDA cousins

[forest cave]

Okay now that I'm not sure of. I've never seen anything like that.

You might be thinking of Doom 3's Hell Knight.

[gentle crescent]

could be misremembering but I think i saw it happen once

[gentle crescent]

I have never played doom 3 and I don't have much interest in doing so

[forest cave]

Your loss. It kind of rocks.

If you're into loreshit Doom 3 has a lot of that.

[gentle crescent]

It's not canon

I will play it at some point but I am currently not interested

[forest cave]

Doom 3's definitely canon. 2016 references it a few times, and it's what introduced the Sentinels.

[raw pine]

-# it is

[forest cave]

It's just AU shit.

[gentle crescent]

is the rest of the tree logical?

[forest cave]

I would say so. Prowlers being Imps makes sense to me.

[gentle crescent]

I think its stated in either of the games

the harvester also being included is because their bodies are extremely similar to prowlers

kinda wish they did something with the harvesters

[forest cave]

Eternal Codex implies it, yeah.

[gentle crescent]

installing doom 2016 (i wiped my pc recently) just to check if i am misremembering the hell knight fireball thing

their ground pounds to release small explosions so they do have higher control over hell energy than a eternal knight

the ones in tda also do i think

depends if you interpret it as powers or just parryable attacks

[sour sky]

this conversation keeps on getting more interesting.....

[gentle crescent]

You feel like contributing to it?

[gentle crescent]

are the tentacles in doom eternal what happened to the ones from the cosmic realm?

hell absorbs and incorporates other realms into it, including its creatures
does this mean the sky tentacles and the gore nest tentacle growths have their origin in the cosmic realm? just being fully demonified versions of them?

[lapis saffron]

well im not quite sure if thats the logic we go off of here lol

otherwise all of doom is canon. which i would agree with. but you wouldnt

[lapis saffron]

yeah most likely

also seeing you outside the mpn server tripped me tf up

[iron depot]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-slayer-doom-slayer-smiling-gif-10870484241078796030

[forest cave]

2016 references shit that would make Doom 3 directly relevant to the Slayer games. Like the Martian Hero and the Sentinels. Like they aren't just easter egg references, they went out of their way to recreate the Martian slabs for the Argent D'Nur level. That's pretty damning IMO, and points to an actual connection worth considering rather than just "ooooh it's the thing from Doom 3..."

[lapis saffron]

it references the idea of a civilisation on mars yes but that doesnt really give credence them being the same thing

theres also yk the fact that the civilisations r called different things

and the fact that when asked if doom 3 was canon hugo said it was a different story instead of yes

[forest cave]

Well we all know my particular feelings on Hugo's statements regarding the canon and how reliable they are.

But they are called different things because they are separate groups. Same race. The Martians are described basically identically to the Sentinels, both are said to be the progenitors of modern humans, both have a storied history re: teleporter technology, and both have elaborate writings on the same historic figure in their pasts.

[quaint geyser]

the way artifacts are labelled in 2016 is also the exact same as DOOM 3, plus I think some 2016 codex entries also mention the Delta Complex

[lapis saffron]

well yes nobody is denying 2016 references 3

but doom 2016 only takes from 3 like how 3 takes from 1

[lapis saffron]

🤷‍♀️ i mean hes the boss

[sour sky]

nah thanks tho I'll just listen to the conversation

[quaint geyser]

he's also a bit silly and forgets his own lore sometimes

[lapis saffron]

Yeah I doubt he forgot if an entire game counts :P

I mean M0no is out here saying doom 3 is less dubiously canon than VFR which was literally made by the current id team I sincerely doubt it’s like that

[quaint geyser]

okay fair that's kinda weird lol but in my humble opinion I truly don't think DOOM benefits from "hard-canon". The story of these games is way more enjoyable when you come up with your own ideas and interpretations of it. And it's not really the games tend to confirm nor deny these things so, like I said, anything goes

I'm not saying it's "hard-canon" that DOOM 3 is canon, but there's nothing really to suggest it isn't either, especially if we're just going off what the games themselves say and not the devs outside the game

[lapis saffron]

I personally view all of doom as canon

But saying “doom 3 is definitely canon” to people is misleading

[quaint geyser]

yeah I do take issue with that, ultimately so many things about the lore are headcanon and should be treated as such, especially in regards to 3's connection to the rest of the series

[lapis saffron]

[gentle crescent]

Hai :3

[lapis saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/hi-hello-andrew-gif-3091015989928111603

[gentle crescent]

I did always interpret the core hebeth as a different civilization in eternal

The one on the surface is the Argenta colony

[lapis saffron]

I headcanon that personally yeah

but it wouldn’t really line up with D3 having the hero with the people

but it’s a fun headcanon

[gentle crescent]

TDA basically confirms the slayer time travels to the past too

Because of the mars level

Making all theories that the events with the sentinels happening between the original games and 2016 even more iffy than it already was

[gentle crescent]

I have never played doom 3 im pretty sure it's not Canon and he's just afraid to exclude any doom games

[lapis saffron]

You should give Doom 3 a try anyway it’s really fun

[lapis saffron]

wdym?

[gentle crescent]

The events on surface hebeth happening at rhe same time that the UAC is on mars and that humanity has advanced tech would be really dumb would it not?

I feel like it would cause a big plot hole

[lapis saffron]

assumedly the UAC is just not on Mars by then I guess

idk something something alternate universe headcanon explanation that 50% of the fandom believes

[gentle crescent]

But they are if its one continous timeline

Its implied humanity first learned of the argenta when they found one of the regions absorbed into hell, the one you play in 2016

[gentle crescent]

Personally I think he went back in time and that changed the events by being there

[lapis saffron]

I personally disagree currently but fairs

It’s not like the series really cares to explain it

[gentle crescent]

I dont think we have very good writers anymore

[lapis saffron]

Mehhhh

[gentle crescent]

Especially when they say stuff like "it tirelessly stalks its prey with a degree of intelligence absent in other demons" and "its general disregard for self preservation " in the same paragraph regarding the same creature

[winter oxide]

Is it really a time travel when he basically crossed over to different universe which has yet to develop UAC of its own at that point in time? This is rather some 40k warp bullshit tbh

[lapis saffron]

Technically not a contradiction, it can be intelligent and suicidal lol

[lapis saffron]

Technically the different universe thing wasn’t confirmed although I believe it

[gentle crescent]

I prefer the time travel explanation to be frank

Because even if the UAC wasn't a thing they would still certainly be able to tell something was happening in mars and the entirety of the city wouldn't just dissappear in the wind

In a few years or decades

[winter oxide]

That's where Slayer's imprisonment in the tomb comes into picture

long ass time passed since and humanity evolved to the point where they are

and then events of 2016 are set in motion

[gentle crescent]

That also still applies in the way I'm explaining it

And in general I think it applies better but thats entirely subjective

Either way they're both valid but they should really just give us a proper explanation at this point

But I guess a good story doesn't help sell DOOM games

[winter oxide]

it usually is an excuse to visit cool places and fight badass demons so yeah pretty much

[lapis saffron]

Yeah story is secondary

Though I think you can’t be as fast and loose with the story when you focus on it more like the modern games

[quaint geyser]

it's been getting worse with every entry honestly

[gentle crescent]

I agree

[lapis saffron]

I think TDA was better than Eternal in that regard though I still have some gripes

But TDA in terms of gameplay and story and characters felt like TAG But Good in a sense lolol

[quaint geyser]

disagree. I think TDA tricked a lot of people into thinking the story was better due to the presentation and tone being more consistent than Eternal. All things considered the problem with Eternal is the storytelling rather than the actual story itself. TDA's story is technically better told but the story itself is nowhere near as interesting imo

[lapis saffron]

Ehhh idk

[quaint geyser]

damn that was quick lmao

[lapis saffron]

A lot of it is presentation yes but quality of storytelling is part of a story

Also as someone who dislikes Samur storywise I find Kreed to be a much better stand in

Also personally I did find TDA’s story more compelling. Eternal’s just got so ridiculous and macguffiny I kind of switched my brain off

Eternal has bigger stakes but bigger =/= better

[quaint geyser]

how exactly was Eternal's story macguffiny?

because last I remember, we spend like half of TDA looking for a macguffin

[lapis saffron]

Go get this mystical item to get a mystical item to get a mystical item to get a mystical item to

[lapis saffron]

But it turns out it was a fakeout :P

Also doesn’t it turn out to be fake within the first 1/3

[quaint geyser]

it's a rather dull fakeout tho. Ohhh Thira has a Wraith in her! Are we gonna explain why? Are we gonna explain how she didn't know about it beyond just "she didn't know.."? Are we gonna explain how she got so in-tuned with her powers so quickly? Nope! It felt like such an arbitrary reason for the game to get us to care about her and the macguffin

[gentle crescent]

TDA has a good roster of characters but theyre all shallow and wasted

[quaint geyser]

guys remember the Wraiths! These two things are the tied to the Wraiths, that means they must be important!

[lapis saffron]

Novik banged a wraith

[lapis saffron]

Talking abt shallow characters in a discussion abt eternal😭😭

[gentle crescent]

And the Kreed Maykr makes no sense as a character to me

[lapis saffron]

At least I cared about like 2 sentinels in TDA over the 0 in eternal

[gentle crescent]

Thira is a worthless character tho 😭

She's practically just a named voice for the sentinels and then becomes a mcguffin </3

[lapis saffron]

She did a lot more than most eternal characters

Novik and Betrayer are like glorified cameos in Eternal

[quaint geyser]

Eternal didn't really have characters the same way TDA does though. Every time we interact with them it's from the Slayer's perspective. In that sense, we're allowed to care about them as much as he does. In TDA, the game cuts to these characters multiple times with no Slayer in sight, meaning the game wants us to care about them even detached from how the Slayer feels about them. But the game doesn't make an effort to make them interesting beyond like the first level. Like the cutscene at the end of Khalim, that conversation between Novik and Thira, was great! And I wanted more scenes like that, but that's basically the only scene like that that there is. The rest of their scenes are just exposition dumping and/or giving you the objective

[lapis saffron]

We interact through the characters via the Slayer’s perspective in 2016 and I cared for all of them there this is a lazy excuse

[gentle crescent]

And the kreed was just a shitty retelling of the khan maykrs story tbh

[lapis saffron]

Eternal literally takes us out of the Slayer’s POV so this is not a good excuse at all

[lapis saffron]

Kreed was more like Samur (and done both much better than Samur and also didn’t shit all over the previous game like Samur)

I don’t disagree TDA still needed MORE character stuff but it’s leagues better than Eternal

TDA’s pacing is my biggest issue, what could’ve made for interesting longer plotlines get resolved way too quickly

[gentle crescent]

The DLC better do something with valen because wow what a complete waste

[gentle crescent]

What important moment happens in the story outside of the slayers pov?

[quaint geyser]

I don't necessarily agree. The cutscenes being in third person do not detract from the fact we still follow him throughout the entire story. In every cutscene, he is present, and generally the central focus. TDA cuts away from him to other characters multiple times.

[lapis saffron]

This is how I felt about eternal

[lapis saffron]

yeah but 2016 literally had you locked in on his pov and I cared about Samuel and VEGA and Pierce and

just don’t introduce side characters if you can’t make them worthwhile

[gentle crescent]

At least he actually did something there 😭 😭

[lapis saffron]

did something aka hands you an item :P

this is like me going “no but Valen brought the slayer back in TDA!!”

[gentle crescent]

More than he did in TDA

Thus far<-

[lapis saffron]

He brought the slayer back that’s 1 thing to 1 thing

[quaint geyser]

yeah, Valen was so utterly wasted in TDA it's not even funny

[lapis saffron]

I agree with this

DLC is apparently abt Marok tho allegedly

[gentle crescent]

They should've been more in first person but the entire story of eternal is with the slayer at all times

[lapis saffron]

I also think Eternal is a horrible follow up to 2016 whereas TDA is like an Okay Prequel

[gentle crescent]

I see where you're coming from but I dont really agree

[lapis saffron]

• Samuel is ruined
• tree prophecy amounted to nothing
• crucible setup (part of the ending and tree prophecy) ended up going nowhere
• slayer being teleported away is resolved offscreen
• many other events happen offscreen
• betrayer is used very poorly and only does something of value in TAG.. where we see the end of his arc
• the argent malarkey

[gentle crescent]

He was just there it was the cultists that brought him back

[quaint geyser]

I still don't really feel satisfied with this because it feels like compensation. Why not make ur mainline prequel game have an incredibly important character actually play a central role in the main campaign story instead of some prodigal daughter character who we've NEVER heard of until now.. like genuinely why

[lapis saffron]

Valen is leading the ritual I think

[gentle crescent]

And the slayer brought himself back because they just sent a magic signal to draw him in

[lapis saffron]

I think we could’ve just had both Thira and Valen

I wouldn’t have reduced Thira’s role she was one of the only parts I enjoyed

[gentle crescent]

She needed actual character development

She's practically just a representation of the night sentinels

[lapis saffron]

Hm I don’t agree given how she disagrees with them on things

[gentle crescent]

And I dont understand why she has the soul of a wraith

[gentle crescent]

Once </3 in the very first level

[lapis saffron]

I imagine that’ll be explained in a future installment but also like I didn’t really care about the explanation it’s just neat

Like sure she has the soul of a wraith cool

[quaint geyser]

I just don't see how someone can hate all the things about Eternal and then like those same things when TDA only doubled down on it

[lapis saffron]

I don’t think TDA doubled down on it 🤷‍♀️

[quaint geyser]

TDA doubled down on all of Eternal's worst aspects bruh

(narratively)

[lapis saffron]

TDA made more of an effort than Eternal and also didn’t try and retrofit its story into a better story ruining it in the process

[gentle crescent]

I also like how the abyssal forest and abyssal keep have ZERO relation in the story, fantastic worldbuilding that was

[quaint geyser]

yeah that's another thing, TDA just like like a bunch of pointless levels that mean nothing, every level in Eternal somewhat has a purpose

[lapis saffron]

Doomguy feels less Mary Sue in TDA, I cared about some of the TDA characters (Kreed, Azhrak, Thira), TDA made the rivalry with the main villain far better, etc

[lapis saffron]

This is how I feel about eternal lol Eternal’s campaign feels extremely disjointed

[quaint geyser]

but hooowowoowwwww

[lapis saffron]

And yes TDA’s is only slightly better but the second half of it is pretty tight and flows

[gentle crescent]

Another character I have an issue with is the Old one, literally worthless

[lapis saffron]

He’s just meant to be a big monster I don’t really see an issue here

[quaint geyser]

in that regard I can't really comment objectively because I personally just don't like Ahzrak, dude felt like an edgy teenager and just out of place in a DOOM game to me

[lapis saffron]

I agree Valen and Marok were wasted but the Old One is literally just Big Thing To Fight it’s The Witch that is the cosmic character that matters

[lapis saffron]

Because Davoth was so much less edgy

[gentle crescent]

Is hyped up by the game and trailers
Big deal about the player having to release this God
It eats the slayer and then just dies

[lapis saffron]

I mean it is brought back and is a boss

[gentle crescent]

It does nothing in the story at all

Besides be a boss for the mid mech segments

[lapis saffron]

Well yeah because the reason why it exists is to be a cool thing to fight

[gentle crescent]

Its such a driving force behind the witch, a super important character only to be useless in the end

[lapis saffron]

The Old One isn’t meant to be like The Witch or Azhrak it’s a mindless force to fight

It’s like the Icon to the Khan

[gentle crescent]

Khan Maykr is a major character what

[quaint geyser]

uhhh yea. His backstory is incredibly tragic all things considered. Dude just wanted to give immortality to his people and was then betrayed by beings he created to help find the key to it, and causing all his people to suffer in the process, plus it's just a cool twist on the traditional story in actual christianity. It's pretty sad. Ahzrak's motivation is just "da demons fear da slaya but IIIII wunt to be feared by dem!!!! >:("

[lapis saffron]

???? How tf did you think I was saying the Khan was the Old One there

The Old One is important because it’s a scary destructive force the Witch wants to return he’s not built up as some huge mastermind

[gentle crescent]

He doesn't accomplish anything at all

[lapis saffron]

He’s Gestalt to Phobos he’s the Icon to the Khan he’s etc etc

[gentle crescent]

Not even the codex implies it

[lapis saffron]

Cause the slayer kills him yea??? Like how the Icon didn’t destroy Earth lol???

or like how the mastermind didn’t kill doomguy and blow up Mars and doom all of humanity to hell

[gentle crescent]

Okay but if the game doesnt have room for him to do anything then at least put something in the codex

[lapis saffron]

Put what

[quaint geyser]

the Icon was responsible for the fall of the Sentinels in all fairness

[lapis saffron]

“Offscreen he wiped out half the sentinels” this adds nothing

[lapis saffron]

Yeah… pre game…?

[quaint geyser]

wait what did the Old One do again?

[gentle crescent]

Its the first time we see a God that isn't from Urdak or Hell

[quaint geyser]

so he got reawakened, ate the Slayer, which didn't even kill him, then got exploded from the inside. Then had to be resurrected by Ahrzak, and then got punched to death by a big piece of metal

[lapis saffron]

Aster the point is that you stop him before he does the bad stuff

[quaint geyser]

wow.. some god

[lapis saffron]

Davoth who gets stunlocked and shredded before accomplishing anything after being reawakened

[gentle crescent]

At least his story says he can accomplish things and is powerful

[quaint geyser]

yeah but the difference is that he's literally Satan and responsible for everything Hell did throughout the entire series bruh

[lapis saffron]

offscreen feats in lore pages mean very little to me

[gentle crescent]

Better than literally nothing

[lapis saffron]

the old one gets called a super powerful being in all the stuff about him like Cool Ok

This is the one thing I will always disagree with you on there is no way you expected any more than this

Valen and Marok are wasted yeah, Thira I disagree but sure have your opinion, this is just silly