the-codex

[frosty canyon]

I second this

[wintry perch]

''WITCH DO SOMETHING HES RIGHT THEREEEE'' spoken only through facial expression is awesome

[wicked turtle]

Competent right up until he decides to kill Serrat and then gloat about it.

[forest cave]

Yeah, but it's a very in-character thing for him to do.

[wicked turtle]

Yeah, but I just think it’s so funny that he’s smart and cunning and then when he gets the Heart of Argent it all goes right to his head.

[forest cave]

I like villains who are always a few steps ahead of the protagonists, whose downfall happens later and often because of their own arrogance/mistakes. Two very different examples: Albert Wesker, Fawful.

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-crying-nba-finals-cavaliers-wtfis-going-on-gif-11922817

ahzrak + witch were so good as a duo

[wicked turtle]

I’m sorry, but I don’t know either of those characters.

[forest cave]

That's fine. Resident Evil and Mario RPG shit.

[raw pine]

just the way ahzrak looks at you when the witch gets her chest cut bad in the final level

[radiant snow]

What a combo

[wicked turtle]

Honestly surprised that I haven’t seen anybody ship them

[small herald]

Fawful mention is wild. You just unlocked some deep memories

[forest cave]

Bowser's Inside Story fucking rocks. I have deep nostalgia for those games. Fawful specifically is a character I loved for being goofy as fuck but also genuinely competent and intelligent, constantly three steps ahead of you to the end. Love it.

[small herald]

I also loved Partners in Time. The original 3 were great, but the 2nd and 3rd stand out the most to me. They have amazing villains

[forest cave]

Superstar Saga and BIS were my favorites for the continuity of Fawful in both, and going from him realizing his boss only got this far because of him in the first one to being his own bad guy in BIS.

Partners in Time was very cool too. I remember being a kid and going "Whoa" when the game revealed the alien shit the Shroobs were saying was just "DESTROY" over and over.

I really liked this stuff as a kid. I think I was just enchanted by the novelty of Nintendo actually giving a shit about writing neat Mario stories with interesting characters, and they weren't trying too hard to appeal to baby children.

Man I gotta replay those.

[small herald]

I’d love to replay them as well. IIRC, fawful appeared on a few occasions in PiT, yeah?

[small herald]

I thought it was awesome. I always loved the fact that they had fleshed out stories, especially since Mario games always had incredible worlds but had little to no story to explore other than environmental (similar to classic doom now that I think of it lol)

[forest cave]

He's a shopkeeper who sells beans to the babies and rants about how he's planning to take over the Mushroom Kingdom.

And how he is obsessed with dunking on "red and green" for foiling his plans. Which I always thought was funny because he never meets them in BIS until the very end.

[forest cave]

Yeah this is exactly why I love modern Doom. A favorite thing of mine is seeing relatively unserious or simple stories be reinterpreted into much more high-effort narratives.

Sadly I think Nintendo's Mario RPG train derailed years ago and has only recently gotten back on track (and the track is still rusted).

[quaint geyser]

He's fine, i like the scene where he possesses a Maykr drone to manipulate the Kreed. I just find his design silly lol, but that's personal preference.

[forest cave]

I like it personally. His final Enhanced Ahzrak phase isn't my thing so much.

[quaint geyser]

wow we really are polar opposite on these things aren't we, because that's actually the design of his I DO like lmao

[forest cave]

Hahah yeah I like that he looks more like a person wearing armor or robes. It's neat and different from most demons. Enhanced Ahzrak looks great for the first phase; once he gets naked and grows wings it's not bad but it's a bit less interesting.

[quaint geyser]

I really liked the whole angelic + demonic look, further cements the idea that the Wraiths are much closer to actual angels than the Maykrs (as far as my understanding of the lore goes)

[forest cave]

Mmm, interesting statement. I can't really say it is right or wrong. The Maykrs are a bunch of frauds and the Wraiths have genuine God powers like making entire species by just screaming.

But apparently the Wraiths are basically just sacrifice victims or something in the Cosmic Realm, so it's not entirely clear what we could call them there.

[quaint geyser]

Yeah I dunno I get this weird feeling with the Cosmic Realm, like there's something secretly angelic/heavenly about the whole thing with the Wraiths and all the eye imagery, along with the fact it's stated to be dying by the Witch. Cthulhu being from there is a whole other wrench in the pile tho

[light lion]

Can anyone explain why vega asks “am I the father doctor hayden” in doom eternal

(After getting put into a thing at maykr home world)

[raw pine]

i think he was regaining some of his memories once he was plugged into the familiar maykr technology

[light lion]

Cool

[lapis saffron]

cause hes the father

[light lion]

Of what?

[lapis saffron]

thats just his name

[light lion]

Aw

[raw pine]

is the witch more powerful than ahzrak? he was constantly looking over his shoulder wanting her to defend him

[cerulean vessel]

Probably before Ahzrak was enhanced

[wicked turtle]

Yknow now that I think about it, Ulsamir was just babysitting Ahzrak throughout the entirety of the campaign.

[winter oxide]

that's what happens when you make a deal with legally distinct Ctulhu fanatic

[wicked turtle]

And Ulsamir survived but Ahzrak didn’t.

[winter oxide]

she got the power of eldritch bullshit on her side, a privilege Ahzrak was lacking

[rancid jungle]

how do humans have a God only as an AI assistant? they ruined vega tbh..

[slender nimbus]

how did the slayer copy a god onto a usb stick

[light lion]

Im pretty sure vega downloaded themselves onto the thing so that could be how

[slender nimbus]

i was mostly making a joke 🥲

[small herald]

Nah this is totally valid

“Technology” is the only explanation

[raw pine]

not just any technology

future technology

[small herald]

How to solve any pothole in a futuristic narrative

[burnt heron]

https://tenor.com/view/jump-cannonball-suiside-pot-pothole-gif-19308370

[light lion]

Why is it that even if the blade of crucible is left in a titan and only handle removed, titan will still wake up

(In eternal)

[radiant snow]

It won't

[light lion]

In Taras nabad when we got the blade from title, didn’t that titan wake up

I saw it move mouth and stuff

[radiant snow]

It did briefly move yea but the entire point of that cutscene was to illustrate that they will indeed stay down

[light lion]

Oh I assumed he woke up

[lapis saffron]

It’s not well communicated yeah

[weak pendant]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[winter oxide]

I'm glad you figured it out, have fun. Probably wrong channel tho

[proud loom]

<@&162901871168585728> scam bot

[keen quest]

i come seeking the one they call "m0nologue"

[wintry perch]

@forest cave I think there's a slight possibility this person is looking for you, I could be wrong

[keen quest]

i come seeking knowledge.

[forest cave]

Hi.

[keen quest]

ok, so, HOW THE HELL DOES COMMANDER KEEN TIE INTO DOOM LORE????

[forest cave]

Modern Doom lore does not reference other id properties beyond funny little cameos. The classic games themselves also never did this in a substantial form.

John Romero and Tom Hall both have said they conceptualized Doomguy to be a descendant of Commander Keen, who would himself be a descendant of BJ Blazkowicz (with the Blaze in Billy Blaze being a shortening of Blazko). IIRC Keen would've been Doomguy's dad.

[keen quest]

oh

[forest cave]

But none of that was ever referenced in the mainline Doom games themselves, so its canonicity is heavily contested and unclear.

The Wolfenstein and Doom RPG games do explicitly name Doomguy as a descendant of Blazkowicz, but their own canonicity is also very questionable and not referenced in the mainline series either.

Basically you can headcanon this stuff if you want, like Romero and Hall did, but on an objective level connections like that weren't ever concretely shown in the directly relevant, mainline Doom games.

[keen quest]

ok

[limber geyser]

Imo word of god over all

Whatever the devs say goes

[burnt heron]

"Yo Boom Slayer murder titan wid his bare handss cuz he mad tuff boiii"

-Hugo Martin

"Boii slayer go to hell cuz he be slaughtering dem demonsl not good!!!!"

-Hugo Martin

[lapis saffron]

mm

more like whatever the current devs say usually

[lyric kraken]

?

[limber geyser]

I accept John Romero and Tom Hall's word as gospel too

Unless something in the new games contradict it

Which hasn't really happened yet

[radiant snow]

You do you, but they last worked at id over quarter of a decade ago, their word has likely been disregarded by like 3 writing teams since

[radiant snow]

Romero and Hall are not at id since the 90s

[lyric kraken]

?

[lyric kraken]

Accurate

[radiant snow]

I really do not know what else you could be confused by

[wicked turtle]

<@&162901871168585728>

Thanks mods

No fucking clue what that was

[jade wraith]

Why is no one attacking the doomslayer in sentinel prime and why is there a makyr angel welcoming him and alerting the hell priest whose side are they really on, if they serve the khan makyr who has now been corrupted then why are they not corrupt too, why do they not stop the doomslayer who is obviously at odds with her and has killed 2 hell priests before and is coming for the next. This scene never made sense to me in my soon to be 5 playthroughs of the game. This and king novik asking the doomslayer why is he in exultia when he literally says in the opening that they are sending him to fight against evil...

[radiant snow]

The opening monologue from Novik is probably something he said way in the past to the Slayer when he was still serving with the Sentinels

[coral vale]

I see it a couple different ways
the slayer is legally classified as a weapon of mass destruction, so the maykrs are trying not to antagonise him more than they have to
The Khan's rant at the end of Urdak shows how much the maykrs are blinded by this idea that they are somehow inherently deserving of worship and obedience. And her attempts to bribe the Slayer on sentinel prime suggest that they don't really understand his motivations for going against them.
so at that point they may still believe that they could convince this weapon of mass destruction to take their side

and up to that point they were probably willing to accept some losses if there was a chance they could make that happen

[granite tusk]

I don't know if its a hot take, but I think Doom always have mid plot. The og ones exept manual and screen texts, dosen't provide you a much context what's going on.

While doom 3 have much more prominent story, most of it in pda still, and the main story is very corny sometimes, You'll already know that Malcolm is a big bad from the start, and most the PDAs not that intresting. While doom 2016's Hayden good written as antagonist in the other hand, Olivia was feels to me, wasted the most of her's drama in the codex, the game only show her three times. but you forget about her because of the conflict between the Slayer and Sam. Except for the holograms maybe, and after I read unused 2016 PDAs I was convinced that she is wasted in the final product.

Everyone has already spoken about Eternal, about its flaws like heavy story codex, Hayden's character change in the main game etc. While I think TDA is better it still flawed like why demons attacked Khalim or the portal in the start of the Forsaken Plains.

[raw pine]

they attacked khalim to find the heart of argent

[lyric kraken]

The Slayer has sovereignty over Sentinel Prime, that's why they don't attack him and he can't attack them

And if he kills someone on Sentinel Prime, he loses sovereignty.

[wicked turtle]

What unused PDA’s in 2016?

[granite tusk]

Yup

In files of alpha mp build

[wicked turtle]

Do you have links?

[granite tusk]

On cutting room floor

I can't post the link because of vega, but here the name of it:Proto:Doom (2016)/Multiplayer Alpha/Cut PDAs

[lapis saffron]

eh doom has always been more of an evil dead vibe series to me anyway

barebones plots a bit of deeper lore but really everything is just an excuse to fight

[granite tusk]

Kinda

[lapis saffron]

(still doesnt excuse eternal's shitarse plot tho)

[granite tusk]

Fair

[lapis saffron]

I think 3 and 2016 had the right level of balance

TDA i honestly wish had a bit MORE story for what it was trying to do

[jade wraith]

Doom Eternal has the most grandiose and spectacular story in all of doom

[radiant snow]

Meh

[wintry perch]

Doom Eternal has the most hype moments and aura story in all of doom

bad story but a fun one nonetheless

[radiant snow]

It's a fine one. It exists to justify the environments, that's pretty much it

[wintry perch]

basically

like yeah here's some bull to explain this phenomenal visual setpiece

[prisma dew]

I finally finished my project

[lapis saffron]

i mean it certainly wants to be grand

i wouldn't say it's spectacular

[quaint geyser]

Agreed

[wraith helm]

Hey are demons immune or at least highly resistant to fire?

[wintry perch]

they live in hell

i think they have varying degrees of resistance to fire but there's a baseline resistance

in Eternal setting them on fire just gives armor and deals no damage

[wraith helm]

Makes sense

[small herald]

Many demons are stated to spawn from the “hellfire pits”

But yeah, where there’s Hell there’s usually fire, so I bet the demons have a higher resistance

[raw pine]

i think this question varies depending on the class of demon. cyberdemons, imps, lost souls, and especially archviles are likely immune to fire. demons like the basic zombie, soldier, screechers, and maybe cacodemons dont have that resistance nor immunity

[wintry perch]

i think most of them are immune to fire but can't leisurely swim through lava, that's my actual question

how well can they handle lava?

[quaint geyser]

ive heard the demons are apparently extremely hot canonically, i dont think fire or lava would be a problem for them in the slightest. That's probably just water to them

[wintry perch]

probably

[lyric kraken]

I remember that if you destroy a Baron of Hell its muscles are on fire, they seem to be made of super-hot volcanic rock

They are too hot, they even survive the icy facilities of Vega and the vacuum of space

[cerulean vessel]

Those are the fireborne barons only

[lyric kraken]

Well, that's it

[lapis saffron]

you can flamethrower them to death in legacy of rust 🤷‍♀️

[lapis saffron]

you can injure them with flamethrowers in LoR and Eternal

[quaint geyser]

That seems to be more of a gameplay thing though with the flamebelch. Honestly would've made more sense in universe if it just emitted wraith-fire instead

[wraith helm]

Also the fire from the flamebelch extinguishes itself from the demon a few seconds later.

[lapis saffron]

what about legacy of rust

[quaint geyser]

Maybe fire hurts them more then lava, since demons don't take any damage when walking on lava

but either way they're definitely more resilient to fire than the average joe. the flamethrower probably does more damage due to it being a more focused concentration of fire compared to the brief burst of flames from the flamebelch

[lyric kraken]

It makes sense that Novik's line "you will be worse" came after Doom Guy joined the Night Sentinels.

For me, yes; the Sentinels knew the Doom Guy's potential and knew that his rage was not something to be trifled with.

And then Novik says that "they are rage, brutal, without mercy, but you will be worse"

And then Doom Guy goes with the Night Sentinels to fight in Hell

I'm Hugo Martin, guys, I know the lore, trust me

[lyric kraken]

I'm not saying that to save myself from what you might say to me, it makes perfect sense to me (And I'm not Hugo, to clarify)

[radiant snow]

Girlyband try to go two messages without a Hugo emoji challenge

[lyric kraken]

No

[royal marten]

I know it's not, but everytime I see this it looks like he's intensely playing the violin

[proud loom]

hugo playing the doom theme on the violin

[craggy quartz]

so is there any cosmic realm lore that hugo said aside from the old ones being multiple guys

[deft scarab]

Only thing I know is that Cthulu is from there, which everyone knows

[vestal temple]

I think he did say that the tentacle monster at the bottom of uac atlantica was from the cosmic realm after someone asked him about it

[wintry perch]

you know i wondered this myself

and as time passed it's one of those "hey we can make this random thing from a past entry match currently established lore right?"

i do wonder the state of the cosmic realm by Eternals time, probably far, far worse than it seemed in TDA as it was a "dying cosmos"

weren't there like, giant tentacles in the sky in most hell on earth esque stages? That reeks of cosmic realm to me ngl

maybe those are one the few things that survived the decay of the cosmic realm

[forest cave]

the old one that we fight, like katsu said, is probably the strongest of the starspawn. maybe he was the first of his species, maybe he was simply the most powerful. whatever the reason, he was likely the one who kept the cosmic realm alive or at least in a healthy state. without him… well, its likely another jekkad situation, which makes me think

@m0nologue. was the old one’s total isolation from the cosmic realm for a long period of time (also accounting for likely time dilations within the cosmic realm) a reason for its decline and hypothetical consumption by hell’s forces? could it be possible that when gods are away from their realm for far too long, they tend to stray away from their path.(ex. the father and urdak) answer in codex though
@raw pine Hugo Martin, IIRC, indicated his belief that there are many Old Ones and the Old One is the Oldest and One-est Old One.

There are theories as to why Ulsamir needs it so bad. The one I vibe with the most is that the Cosmic Realm is experiencing massive decline thanks to entropy / heat death - essentially, that the Cosmic Realm is an entire universe of its own, and it has been around so long it is seriously declining, and that its existence is dependent on the Old One to thrive.

Under this idea, it's possible the Old One could be a figure somewhat like Davoth or the Father to the Cosmic Realm - their strongest God, whom the rest of them depend on being there to thrive.

As for your second paragraph, the game doesn't give us enough info to say if the Old One's power was impacted by its slumber. This would be a reasonable assumption! Though I personally do not feel that the Old One's consumption by Hell is related to its power or lack thereof - I think it's solely because of Hell's rules. Ahzrak resurrected it, and in the process bound it to their will, something that the Old One can't resist regardless of its strength.
You can take the whole "cut off from its chaotic divinity" thing to be sort of similar to the Maykrs. the Maykrs are connected to the Singularity, this is what makes them susceptible to the Transfiguration. When they're turned into Blood Maykrs they lose this connection thanks to their newfound attachment to Hell, thus changing their innate nature. They're no longer true Maykrs, just demons.

[raw pine]

love hearing your insight on this stuff, mono. ill be sure to come with new questions and whatnot soon

[craggy quartz]

The old one seems like a bit of a pushover to be able to just be imprisoned and then killed from the inside

[granite tusk]

Damn I realized how many thing 2016 story borrowed from doom 3, I'm not say that the story is bad, but a bit second in originality than DE and TDA even if Eternal's plot is worse in quality. This proves Hugo's words in Noclip documentary, that the story was finalized at the last minute.

[lyric kraken]

Yobwhat is this

[quaint geyser]

Finalized at the last minute and still the best one

[lapis saffron]

true

[coarse wraith]

Any story is good if executed right 🗿

They kept it at a minimal and somehow it was engaging

[gentle warren]

“2016 story borrowed from 2016”

[lapis saffron]

[granite tusk]

Lol, I mean from doom 3 my bad

[gentle warren]

Yeah I figured

Even the demonic fading after you kill an enemy is from doom 3

[granite tusk]

Fair

[lapis saffron]

while it is true 2016 takes a lot from 3 i think saying that downplays the brilliant characters of Samuel, Pierce and VEGA from 2016

of course the franchise would then go on to ruin the characters of Samuel and VEGA after 2016 so oooops (nah jk vega is still ok)

[coarse wraith]

I was disappointed with what they did with Samuel ngl

[gentle warren]

Olivia Pierce was never ruined therefore she’s the greatest character to ever be made

[lapis saffron]

yeah him being the seraphim is such an asspull and the writing for him just declined the moment it happened

TAG 1 is like the best 3 level run in terms of gameplay but fuckin hell TAG 1's story and presentation is DIRE

[gentle warren]

I just headcanon that the Seraphim took over and effectively killed Samuel Hayden before Eternal which is why Dr. Hayden was destroyed

[lapis saffron]

VEGA being The Father was like.. ok.. because at least it was vaguely in line with the original intent for the character (2016 mentions the core of the VEGA terminal is 'arcane' and sourced from a mysterious place and also VEGA has maykr markings on him in 2016. that was somewhat planned)

and also they're not written particularly differently

[coarse wraith]

They had opportunity to make three antagonists of each world/realm: Davoth - Hell, Father - Urdak, Samuel - Earth, they could’ve cooked with this

[lapis saffron]

i do enjoy her in contrast with Betruger and Guerard

[granite tusk]

But ironiclly Malcolm has more screen time than her

[lapis saffron]

i mean 2016 does also call Samuel a "priest" but that line was also foreshadowing for a plot point they abandoned and i kinda doubt it meant "HES AN ANGEL" at the time too

[coarse wraith]

Samuel being an antagonist solely for Earth’s interests would be more compelling

[lapis saffron]

especially given how the maykr body-growing lab in Eternal is very clearly a desperate attempt to patch the obvious plothole of human Samuel posed by the Seraphim retcon

[lapis saffron]

yeah i agree

[lapis saffron]

true but i don't think pierce is a character that needs much screen time

she's not a campy laughing mad in your face villain she's a quiet more reserved cultist working in the shadows

makes for a good contrast to betruger hamming it up and guerard being friendly yet suspicious

[gentle warren]

Pierce is unironically my favorite antagonist

Excluding maybe Ahzrak but even then entirely different concepts

[lapis saffron]

out of every doom antagonist ahzrak is definitely my fave but out of the 3 "evil scientist in the uac" characters she's probably my fave

[gentle warren]

Her scenes are just so powerful

[lapis saffron]

the real question is which uac scientist transformation was the coolest

[gentle warren]

“You could not have saved them anyways.”

“You cannot STOP ME from CLAIMING WHAT IS MINE!”

“This is not the end! THIS IS ONLY… THE BEGINNING!”

[lapis saffron]

Maledict, Kronos or Spider Mastermind

[quaint geyser]

I dont even hate the Seraphim as a character, just wish he wasnt Samuel. I personally headcanon them as two seperate people

[gentle warren]

No idea who Kronos is and honestly the Spider Mastermind transformation was underwhelming so Maledixt

[lapis saffron]

Kronos is from Doom RPG

[gentle warren]

Her backstory is probably the most well written too

[coarse wraith]

“They promised me so much.” Reading the codex makes the UAC downfall more disturbing

[quaint geyser]

I dont even think she was afraid of the Slayer honestly. Like she straight up WALKS away from him after hitting him with that first line of dialogue

[gentle warren]

That’s why I love her

The hell priests are a genuine joke, the Khan Maykr is poorly written, the Seraphim

Ahzrak is actually on level with the Slayer and the Witch

[lapis saffron]

the hell priests are campy so i like them

[coarse wraith]

Or maybe it’s because they were separated by bulletproof glass 👀

[gentle warren]

To be fair I’d still be terrified if I was looking the man who literally fought hell multiple times while being a regular guy in the face

[coarse wraith]

Fair, she gave zero fucks

[quaint geyser]

Still name another doom villain that told the Slayer that to his face, and lived a couple more days

[gentle warren]

Olivia Pierce is unique in that she’s the only character whose not afraid of Doomguy who would get obliterated if they actually fought

[lapis saffron]

Well unique for the modern games anyway

[gentle warren]

The old games didn’t have the slayer tbf

[quaint geyser]

Ranak's the only one with a more defined personality. Nilox just dies and Grav's contributions are moreso in the lore

[lapis saffron]

Well I don’t think they needed to be big villains they were obviously just small evil roles

But I think they’re fun targets for the first half of the game

[coarse wraith]

Closest is probably Samuel, in the ending. He had that aura and had no fear and the Slayer played right into his hands

[lapis saffron]

Samuel is more annoyed by the Slayer than fearful

[gentle warren]

At that point Dr. Hayden had the crucible he could probably kill the Slayer with it, even if he thinks he couldn’t

[quaint geyser]

Cant believe they never had him actually using the demonic crucible in Eternal, such a fucking waste

[gentle warren]

Plus he’s taller robot

[gentle warren]

No he used it! He used it to… power his ship! Yeah! That’s good, right?

[coarse wraith]

He was holding it too in one of the pictures in the codex for Eternal, you know he used that

[quaint geyser]

And his whole character arc happens off screen like bruh

[quaint geyser]

We were robbed

[coarse wraith]

Bro went from “In the end, the very power source you sought to eradicate from Earth is now what will help you save it.” to bragging about the Seraphim, where did all that character go bruh

[lapis saffron]

I wish the 2016 tree line saying he was gonna cause the Slayer problems actually happened

It literally says he will use the crucible to fuck shit up and then he Doesn’t

[wintry perch]

again what i like abt Ahzrak is that unlike apparently everyone else, he's not a fucking idiot and chooses to stay away from the Slayer until he feels he can actually face him

i can somewhat understand the priests hubris but the Khan should know better

[gentle warren]

Tbf the slayer couldn’t even kill the priests without the tokens and they still hid

[wintry perch]

ye that's partly why i understand the priests hubris

but the khan should have been smarter

not only is the priests hubris understandable, but it adds to the satisfaction of murdering them lol

the second priests death is still absolute cinema

[coral vale]

I think the khan was... not exactly in her right mind by the time of Eternal

ironically for such an angel-presenting being, she's very much the immortality seeker desperate to preserve her own life
and she's justified it by convincing herself that Urdak will fall if she dies
judging by the events of the ancient gods, that wasn't exactly true -- Urdak still exists without a Khan

and it only became corrupted because of her

point being, none of her actions in the game are particularly rational

[lyric kraken]

The woman seriously thought she could stop the Slayer

[coral vale]

I do think the Khan is still my favourite Doom villain
because she really was driven to complete insanity by her own hubris -- I mean she clearly doesn't believe everyone should live forever, but she believes she deserves their reverence and their lives just because of what she is
she cannot be reasoned with, which makes her the perfect counterpart to Doomguy, because neither can he
unstoppable force meeting immovable object

[quaint geyser]

I swear they better not just make her sit around and do fuck all in the TDA DLC like they did with Valen and Marok in the basegame

[coral vale]

yeah that would be disappointing
but for now I'm cautiously excited to be getting more of her

[lapis saffron]

oh yeah i forgot she was gonna be in the dlc

[lapis saffron]

i dont mind marok being a bit meh especially since the dlc is focused on him but valen desperately needed a bigger role

[coral vale]

"and what will Valen be doing?"
"he will also be there"

[lyric kraken]

Very present father

[wicked turtle]

Valen is not a deadbeat dad

[coral vale]

I mean I'm pretty sure Marok never even appears outside of his father's presence

though then again
would I recognize him if he did?

I'm not very good with character faces
I mean I can recognize Novik because we all know beard equals king

although, if I'm honest, even then it's more because he doesn't believe in shirts

[coral vale]

unless there's official lore on that, I'll have to conclude he thinks they sap his kingly power

[wicked turtle]

Stupid slutty sentinels/J

[coral vale]

I did find it funny the reveal that non-ghost Novik basically looks like... paperback fantasy cover art
but that's also exactly the vibe of Doom, so I can't really complain 🙂

[dusky pine]

Ive had some discussion with my friend about the tda, divinity machine and the slayer's genesis.
Since TDA happens after the slayer getting into the divinity machine (DM) he is effectively immortal.

However he dies after ripping off his tether and falling into the acid lava thingy.
Then he came back only after the sentinel's ritual.
So... how immortal is he after all? Before TDA the codex entries were pretty clear that after becoming a primeval after DM he should be unkillable to any beings that also arent primevals.
Demons arent, Ahzrak also isnt a primeval and the Old Ones are said to be gods but they dont seem to be primevals (are they?).

[coral vale]

I dunno, I honestly kinda disregard that part because I feel like it doesn't make sense to be in a game where you can still die to regular enemies in gameplay

even though that doesn't canonically happen it still kinda breaks the lore just by being possible

[radiant snow]

I don't like the thought of him being immortal so I ignore it

[coral vale]

I don't like the idea that this crusade against hell isn't a challenge to him when the whole point of playing it is to be a challenge to me, in his praetor boots

just feels like if he really was so effortlessly immortal he wouldn't need me controlling him 😛

I'm sorry that doesn't answer the question, but it's my feeling on the topic anyway

[wintry perch]

i like the fact that he can come back from dying only with a specific ritual

theres risk when he dies bc basically he's out of commission and can't do much

when you die in game you lost the battle, it will be sort of a chore to come back

the crusade against hell is still a challenge to him

[radiant snow]

It makes him more badass too

Going into a 1v1 with a whole army even when he can die

[wintry perch]

true, i prefer the balance of the Slayer being unstoppable while still having a challenge ahead of him

this shit isn't easy, but he always pulls through and that's why they fear him

way cooler that there's risk

[sonic violet]

I believe he could have eventually made his way back up out of hell regardless, seeing as he hijacked the ship from the harbor of souls through his own power
the ritual was just meant to give him a beacon so that he knew where to go and so that the sentinels could ensure he re-emerged from hell in the correct location

[dusky pine]

so whats up with the whole immortality thing? He isnt immortal then as he can be killed.

He coming back later is just a consequence of that but that would defeat the point of him being immortal

[sonic violet]

well idk exactly how it works

but I don't think he's immortal

[wintry perch]

true

[sonic violet]

it's a bit weird because hell in the nudoom universe is a dimension/realm, not hell like in the religious sense
so if he "dies" and gets sent to hell, is he actually dying, or is his body just being transferred to a different dimension

I have no idea

[radiant snow]

I think the idea of him battling his way out of Hell is cool but it's a bit too plot convienent

[coral vale]

it strikes me more like a classical interpretation of the underworld than a modern religious interpretation of hell, especially with what the Slayer is able to do in the Harbour

and that gives me at least a sense that Hell in the doom universe isn't so much its own dimension as it is... an underworld... that's got its own geography and world but is also kinda part of every actual dimension

[gentle warren]

Yes same here

Hugo Martin should stop trying to push his fanfiction into the series

[lyric kraken]

I find it funny how he only nods his head when the King compliments his son

[lapis saffron]

for my own sanity i assume he wouldn't have actually left without the ritual

[lyric kraken]

Longevity, extreme resilience, self-sustaining, technically he doesn't need a body to continue operating normally

[dusky pine]

technically he doesn't need a body to continue operating normally
huh

[lyric kraken]

He will continue to exist as long as humanity exists; if he fainted when the threats died, I think he has no reason to continue existing without humanity

[lyric kraken]

His body was rotten; he didn't need muscles to move, he didn't need eyes to see, he simply existed. He could be headless or a skeleton and still fight as if nothing was wrong

[gentle warren]

Same

[gentle warren]

IMO the maykrs knocked him out

I don’t buy him being so intertwined with hell that the inability to fight demons caused him to literally pass out

[lyric kraken]

What imo means

[dusky pine]

"in my opinion"

[gentle warren]

In my opinion

[lyric kraken]

Ah

[gentle warren]

Along with that, the Maykrs are why Doomguy has his power, and they’re sealing him up to be theirs once again

[dusky pine]

I dont believe that. It would make no sense from the story point.

Imagine a medium-sized glowing orb exploding demons telepathically

[lyric kraken]

I can imagine it

[gentle warren]

Tbf (to be fair), it’s hell and zombies aren’t a new concept. He’s more withered and damaged then what we see, but zombies do exist in hell

Plus he does have divinity, it’s probably letting him kick around a little longer then normal

He definitely wouldn’t be able to fight with out arms or a head

But he wasn’t literally falling apart so he’s fine

[lyric kraken]

[lyric kraken]

He could, the whole zombie thing is also a justification for being locked in the sarcophagus

When the Slayer is defeated in Hell, he is not killed because he was going to continue fighting in another part of Hell

At that time he had no allies, the sentinels didn't know where he was, and they wouldn't want to perform rituals after seeing what happened to Marok

I think the ritual did revive him, and without it he would have remained a zombie, but it served more as a beacon, as the Slayer Suit says

[dusky pine]

If it served as a beacon, why didn't he came out as a zombie?

The whole ritual really f••ked the lore up ngl

[lyric kraken]

[lyric kraken]

Semantic error, grammatical error, I don't know, I said something that wasn't what I meant hehe

I mean, the ritual revives him, but reviving him wasn't necessary, bringing him back to the battlefield does help

The ritual is more useful as a beacon (for the Slayer) than as a ritual to revive people

[dusky pine]

Why do you keep spamming that emote btw

[lyric kraken]

Best Hugo Martin Game Director emoji

[coral vale]

I think he'd have been able to leave but he wouldn't have gotten back to Argent D'nur
the Slayer Suit tells you it detects a beacon and that was probably meant to be the ritual

without it he just gets dumped into some random universe -- or maybe back to his original one

[violet sundial]

Azrack looks cool but i hope the high council demons will be more demonic-looking

[lapis saffron]

i hope erebus' design is used for one o fthem

[jovial remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/geometry-dash-alpha-react-erebus-에레버스-리엑션-gif-13352992958371971270

erebus?

[raw pine]

the doom erebus, not a gd level

[lapis saffron]

i love gd

[wicked robin]

So... The Slayer actually killed a demonic lord with just his bare hands?

[dusky zephyr]

Hugo did confirm this on stream

Although he says a lot of things on stream,so take that as you will

[dusky pine]

That it was a beacon to return to?

[dusky zephyr]

Yes

[lapis saffron]

i imagine it also made him stop being a zombie

like if he left without it he'd just be the zombie slayer on fuckin earth or some shit

[violet sundial]

Is the high council considered greater in terms of status and authority

Over the prince of hell

[dusky pine]

I think so, I think it was said that the prince Ahzrak (assuming that's who you mean) was given authority to do whatever to deal with the slayer by the council.

But I could be completely wrong

[lyric kraken]

Yes

[lyric kraken]

Since we're on the most recent Doom entry, Hugo knows exactly what he's talking about, also he's the main writer of the plot

[dusky haven]

You’re missing aaaaaaalll of the additional writers that have implicit impact on the story. These people don’t have a say on what Hugo haphazardly throws out on stream

[lyric kraken]

[lyric kraken]

Everyone communicates their ideas to Hugo, and he's the one who oversees everything they're a team, after all, and hes the leader

Besides that, the game is new and they're still working on its story, they know what they're doing

[wintry perch]

still it's recommended to take his words with a grain of salt

[forest cave]

These are assumptions you're making without actually being a part of the development process.

As someone who is actually making a videogame on a team, albeit a much smaller one, lapses in communication are very common and very easy to make happen.

TheDinosaurHeretic is right. Doom's narrative is the combination of Hugo's ideas and writing + contributions, corrections, and changes made by the writing team. That is the final product. Therefore you are under no obligation to accept whatever Hugo says as fact; his standalone statements are only half of what makes the Doom story. I'd feel the same way about any other writer saying shit.

Which, BTW, I have also said before. Not necessarily a writer but TDA's concept artists have included lore tidbits in concept art like the whole thing about the bones of the first Titan in Limbo or whatever. Neat idea? Yeah. Could it come up in the future? Maybe. Does that mean it's canon now? No. Not at all.

[wintry perch]

👆

[quaint geyser]

Just take what the itself game says, anything else is unreliable

[forest cave]

Yeah that's exactly what I feel.

I'm a Doom fan, not a Hugo fan. Guy's nice but my weird hyperfixation is not on one guy, it's on a story.

[radiant snow]

In my experience the easiest way to consume the DOOM lore has been to not consume it at all lololol

There's so many variables and shit to it that it messes with me

[gentle warren]

Hugo martins fanfics turn doomguy into a totally cool not Mary Sue OC do not steal

[quaint geyser]

I cant help but get into lore and story, it's in my nature with anything im interested in

[quaint geyser]

Yep..

[wintry perch]

don't read corraxes and make up shit purely on gameplay and visuals

[quaint geyser]

He's a good game designer, a great artist, but a questionable writer

[gentle warren]

No you can’t do that!!! Gameplay isn’t canon! It takes a backroad for story!!!!

[gentle warren]

Holy shit Hugo Martin is actually Hugo cawthon

we cracked the code

[quaint geyser]

It really has the same energy doesnt it lol

[radiant snow]

Hugo wrote both the ending to 2016 and the "He is Doom" shit
Cawthon wrote both the ending to FFPS and the FNaF 2 final fight
Writing really is a spectrum huh

[quaint geyser]

Tho at least DOOM only has the games and not a whole fucking library

[gentle warren]

no Reddit dickrides Hugo’s lore while being questionable of Scott

[wintry perch]

he is doom

[quaint geyser]

Wow FNaF fans being critical? I don't believe you honestly

[radiant snow]

FNaF and DOOM fans both suck!

But that is more of a general chat topic

[gentle warren]

Doomguy versus Freddy Fazbear is important to the lore

[radiant snow]

@forest cave I've been curious lately, what do you think of the 2005 movie's alterations to the story?

[quaint geyser]

I think Freddy would win personally

[quaint geyser]

Didnt they turn em into like experiment abominations or smth, like theyre not even demons

[radiant snow]

Yes and it was peak

[quaint geyser]

Shits just Resident Evil bruh

[gentle warren]

https://tenor.com/view/jon-arbuckle-disgust-jon-arbuckle-disgusting-gif-22501611

[quaint geyser]

The first person scene makes up for a lot of that movie

[radiant snow]

-# The entire movie fucks actually

[forest cave]

I think he's done great shit for the series. None of what I've said is specifically a critique on him and moreso just how I feel about authorial intent in general. For the lore's many faults in contradictions and bad priorities in storytelling, Hugo's direction has also brought the Doom franchise to many new and great places.

It's just that, like most writers, his work is best after others have helped to refine it.

And it's taken them a few games to nail down that process.

[quaint geyser]

Okbuddy

[gentle warren]

You said it was good, please do not conflict me with info

[forest cave]

Some of it's nice. As far as interpreting Doomguy specifically it's fine, and I like the idea of essentially having two main protagonists, and one of them becomes a villain by the end thanks to typical Doom bullshit. It's very Doom 3-coded as a whole.

Sorry to be predictable, but I cannot get behind them changing Hell's presence in the story and swapping it out with the genetic chromosome shit. I feel the presence of Hell is a virtually mandatory element of Doom. They should've realized they needed to change things when that was put on paper. It's like writing a Kirby game where he's intermittent fasting and you can't inhale enemies. Or "here's Resident Evil 10 - it's about you fighting normal animals in the woods. No virus."

[radiant snow]

Fucks is a good thing

[forest cave]

To me the most basic, distilled core of Doom's identity is the fusion of demonic horror and action sci-fi. It was always meant to be Evil Dead having a beautiful one night stand with Aliens and giving us demons invading a sci-fi base.

Doom 2005 does a good job with one of those things but completely omits the other.

[quaint geyser]

Maybe they thought itd be too weird or they got censored cuz ohhh noooo demonic stuff but i dunno

Or just tryin to catch the interest of RE fans

[gentle warren]

They played the German port by accident

[radiant snow]

That's all fair honestly but I personally absolutely adore the new direction. Of course, an ideal DOOM movie would have Hell, but I think they hit the bullseye with redefining the actual doom. It's a little generic but I think it opens up a lot more interesting scenarios, and the story absolutely takes hold of those by writing a spectacular (at least imo) story that squeezes the most out of this concept and does it in a great way. I also feel like 2005 at its worst is better than Eternal at its best in terms of story, but that's going from a hot take to a volcanic one

[quaint geyser]

You did not just say that lmao

[radiant snow]

I did and I will not take it back

[gentle warren]

I’d rather only play eternal for the rest of my life then watch the movie once

[quaint geyser]

I actually used to be like you when it came to Eternal's story but TDA ironically enough made me come around to it more

[radiant snow]

Crazy

[forest cave]

I can't agree with the last bit for the same reason I have never liked 2016's story more than Eternal's.

[radiant snow]

TDA has the best story of them all imo

[gentle warren]

WHAT

[quaint geyser]

Nahhh

[gentle warren]

DOOM: “AURAFARMING” ETERNAL OVER 2016

[forest cave]

I will always prefer weirder and more interesting stories executed haphazardly than I will standard and basic stories executed well. 2016's storytelling is good (mostly) but the story it tells is boring. Eternal's storytelling sucks but the story it tells fucking rocks.

[gentle warren]

Okay yknow what that’s fair

[forest cave]

But yeah this. TDA nails both.

[quaint geyser]

I can get behind that, 2016's still my fav because if its "no bullshit attitude". Its just more DOOM to me

[radiant snow]

I like the "boringness" of 2016's story because it feels very normal to me, for some reason, for DOOM to have a grounded smaller story. I feel like that's how it's been in the earlier games, in 1 and 3 you were an unsung hero, and in II you were the known hero but the near extinction of humanity most likely overshadowed your entire journey. 2016 having it happen in secluded areas away from anyone other than two people felt right

Eternal certainly made the right move for the good of the series by trying to have a grand story but it flopped super hard. I think with TDA they finally did a good grand one

[proud loom]

to be fair, TDA has better writing than eternal combined. Like imagine having 6 people writing for that game and it turns out to be a mess and super confusing

[quaint geyser]

I prefer that too, 2016 nails presentation the best imo

[forest cave]

I'm mixed on it. I think I'd be a moron to pretend 2016's "fuck the plot" attitude wasn't essential to its success and bringing back Doom, to the point that two games later fans wish the sequels kept it.

But at the same time I think 2016's unwillingness to step outside the Slayer's POV or engage more with the characters neuters its narrative. Olivia Pierce is, on paper, one of the most interesting characters in the franchise, but everything that makes her interesting is kept in Codex files while on-screen she does nothing but act as a lamer Betruger.

[gentle warren]

It’s like half life’s story

[radiant snow]

TDA having a better story than any other game prior hit me as soon as I saw the intro to Siege where the Slayer shows extreme care for the lives of others while in previous games it felt more like he was just mopping up a mess made by demons

[forest cave]

I also get a bit annoyed with the game in general because people lament how "disruptive" Eternal's cutscenes are... yet Eternal never ever forces you to wait 5 minutes for a character to monologue before letting you continue playing the game. Eternal has skippable cutscenes. 2016 does not. Why Eternal specifically has the reputation of "too much story" despite this is beyond me.

[quaint geyser]

I just don't really like the whole "cinematic" marvelish thing TDA has going on with its cutscenes, i prefer immersion and i think you can get a lot more clever with that format

[radiant snow]

Eternal and TDA both got some very unusual and random complaints

[gentle warren]

Probably helps that tda actually feels like the demons are a threat, you could tell me humanity was never in danger in eternal and id believe you

[radiant snow]

Yeah I also adored TDA showing the demons finally having some sort of smart leader commanding them. Made them feel less like evil minions and more like an actual faction

[quaint geyser]

Well maybe if they didnt make the Night Sentinels so lame ;-;

[radiant snow]

And just in general having a villain with more than three minutes of screentime lol

[gentle warren]

No I just genuinely would believe humanity is completely fine in eternal

TDA and 2016 having dead humans littered around was awesome

[quaint geyser]

Eternal has dead bodies around bruh

[gentle warren]

Not as many and not as abundantly

[quaint geyser]

There is a whole ass level dedicated to human gore littered everywhere

[radiant snow]

I think ironically enough the calmest environment (Taras Nabad) is where the game makes it the most clear to you that Earth is at risk

[gentle warren]

Gore nest is the one exception and even then it’s just a giant mass of gore not actual bodies

[quaint geyser]

There are bodies in gore nest bruh

[gentle warren]

There aren’t as abundant of an amount

Ignoring gore nest

[quaint geyser]

No i do agree, but they are there is all im saying. I dont think Eternal lived up to the Hell on Earth premise, but I don't think TDA exactly lived up to the Medieval War on Hell premise either because the only reason the situation feels more dire is because the Night Sentinels fucking suck at their jobs

[forest cave]

Personally I find immersion to be overrated. I don't feel particularly immersed in 2016 compared to the other Doom games.

To me more emphasis on storytelling is a lot more effective. A lot of TDA's emotional beats or important scenes hit harder than like. Anything in 2016 and most of Eternal.

[quaint geyser]

Not really to me. Like I tend to agree with what your saying but in TDA's case a lot of the cutscenes werent anything particularly emotional aside from like 1 or 2 exceptions. Most of the cutscenes are either dull exposition or "aurafarming" moments.

I'm not against cutscenes in general but like.. actual substance please?

[forest cave]

I dunno, if you look at TDA as a story largely focused on the Slayer I find many of the cutscenes to have a lot of substance.

The two different scenes of him breaking free of the Tether; his speaking to and saving Novik; his nod to Thira, really most of his scenes with Thira; basically every scene with Ahzrak in it; the Serrat stuff too.

TDA gives us a lot of the Slayer's personality and personal journey that were previously only hinted at in the other games. Being an outsider to a society he loves, struggling to cope with what he's become now that he's the Slayer, struggling to find closure in killing his adversaries as revenge.

[coral vale]

I like the way he's presented but not how they tried to give him character development through the story

'Cause I just don't feel like he was actually any different at the end from how he was at the beginning

[quaint geyser]

the problem is that these characters have zero personality. Name one thing about Thira? Not her role in the war or anything, like something about HER as a person that isn't just "she's brave" and "she likes the Slayer". You can't, that's the extent of her character. Novik's a little better but again his character isn't really much more than "he's a king, he cares about his people". This is bare minimum. I don't like Ahzrak personally and that's not anything really objective or critical on my part, I just don't like him. Serrat is wasted potential, because it baffles my mind how this game right is gonna put in the marketing "we're taking the story out of the codex" only for Serrat's entire backstory to be IN the codex like??? And we literally get 2-3 five second scenes, in this 14hour long game, of the Slayer and Serrat bonding. That is not enough time to grow an emotional attachment, and the dragon gameplay being very meh certainly does not help.

[forest cave]

I agree the side characters aren't particularly fantastic (except Ahzrak, whom I feel is the strongest villain of the series). It's not ideal, but they more than delivered on the Slayer specifically, whom the story focuses on, so for me they nailed the important parts of the story.

[quaint geyser]

The Slayer stuff is the best stuff, I'll give you that. The scene where he's hearing the screams of innocents being slaughtered, fantastic. I like how his face conveys a lot of pain when he's killing Ahzrak, it's pretty much everything AROUND him I have a problem with

[coral vale]

I prefer Azrahk as a final boss, but I prefer the Khan Maykr as a villain

[forest cave]

I do think some of the side characters do serve their purpose well enough as side characters. Specifically Novik and the Witch are about what I'd have wanted from them in the story.

[wintry perch]

this is true!

[forest cave]

I'm fine with Serrat's backstory being in the Codex because IMO it's not very relevant to the actual plot. What matters is that he's very important to the Slayer, something communicated through the cutscenes.

[wintry perch]

i appreciate how the stakes are conveyed in TDA with the humans behavior far more than in Eternal

if Eternal kept the tone of the intro i would have bought humanities disparity more

[quaint geyser]

this is the thing though, I wouldn't mind the characters being kinda boring if they didn't get such a massive amount of screentime devoted to them. Like the game clearly wants me to really care about them but I just don't because there's been no effort put into properly developing them. This is why the Intern works as well as he does, he's charming and that's the extent of his character, but the game never cuts back to him constantly to show off his boring shenanigans.

[quaint geyser]

I really think it would've heavily impacted a lot of people's view of that side of the story. Because when Serrat dies, most people are sad that the Slayer's sad, not that Serrat specifically died

[forest cave]

To me Novik fulfills this well enough, since he serves to show us the Sentinels' distrust towards the Slayer, is there to see the Slayer prove he is still a Sentinel at the end of the first act, and shows his newfound trust in him at the climax with the Atlan stuff.

I also like the Witch. I think she did about as much as she could. She's a neat envoy of the Cosmic Realm and a cool way to build up such a huge threat only to show us how much it falls to Hell like any other world.

[quaint geyser]

The game just needed more interesting dialogue, if not in the cutscenes, then during gameplay. Like I want to know at least what a character's feeling. Like during Spire of Nerathul Novik doesn't sound particularly worried that his daughter got taken to Cthulhu Land. I'm not asking to Marvel type quips and stuff but just a bit more of a dynamic between the characters at least would've been nice

[quaint geyser]

I just wish she did more, I'm honestly pretty sad she ain't coming back in the DLC, would literally be the perfect reason to take us back to the Cosmic Realm but.. no

[forest cave]

That's fair, I get that. I don't think TDA's story is perfect by any means.

Just... leagues above the other two IMO.

[quaint geyser]

well I disagree with it being LEAGUES better but I guess I could see why people think that

better than RE9's story at least

[forest cave]

A topic for a different channel, but I'm sorry to say I actually really liked RE9's story aside from some shit near the end.

Main RE stories I seriously don't like are RE1, 0, 3R, Rev1.

[quaint geyser]

I give TDA brownie points for at least not relying on nostalgia bait and retcons.

[coral vale]

that's fair

I like Azrahk's personal rivalry with the slayer but I wish it was a little more text and less subtext
having it front and center in his character would have made beating him even more satisfying

[quaint geyser]

For once I want to see a demon beat the absolute fuck out of Doomguy, that would for once be an actual gamechanger

[blissful imp]

That sometimes happens in doom 2016 death animations, they’re pretty sick

[wintry perch]

i always wanted the Slayer to have a rival of sorts, the Marauder was the closest we got

[quaint geyser]

Yeah, almost like TDA would've been a great oppurtunity to focus a bit on that, but no i guess Cyber-Cthulhu was more compelling

[wintry perch]

tbf, Chutlu was a fire inclusion

closest we'll ever get to Doomguy vs well known diety/god in official media

like Doomguy vs SCP type shit

[quaint geyser]

Should've been in the DLC instead of the maingame, feels more like DLC material

[wintry perch]

nah it's fire

[lyric kraken]

?

Hugo is the one who ends up knowing everything they do in the end, like, he's just explaining something that happens in the story that he and his team made

[forest cave]

Except he has outright contradicted the story that he and his team made before.

Because he isn't explaining something that happens in the story that he and his team made; he's explaining something in the story he envisions in his head before it's ironed out and in the final product.

[gentle warren]

I just picture it like two separate universes

[forest cave]

Objectively incorrect statement: "The Whiplash is the first female demon."
Very, very contradictory statement: Like half the shit he's said about Primevals.
A bit of an asspull: How he explained away Hayden's actions in 2016.

[gentle warren]

The first female demon is the spider mastermind afaik, which definitely precedents the whiplash for anyone wondering

[radiant snow]

There's the Mastermind, the Vagary, Lost Soul, etc

[gentle warren]

Lost souls are women?

[forest cave]

The Whiplash is like... the fifth female demon.

• Spiderdemon
• Mother Demon
• Vagary
• Aranea Imperatrix / Spider Mastermind
  THEN the Whiplash.

[lyric kraken]

We know that Hugo sometimes forgets things, you won't always be able to remember every detail of your story when you're overseeing many things at the same time, but in general, he knows it and he must necessarily know it well, since he is responsible for ensuring that the final story reaches the game

[radiant snow]

The D3 ones

[lyric kraken]

[gentle warren]

Rage bait so good I’m starting to fall for it

[forest cave]

Of course he forgets things. Which is why his statements should not automatically be taken as fact: they are coming from a fallible and unreliable human, rather than the static text of the game.

[gentle warren]

Id just take the games as the almighty source of information. Even if Hugo leads the story his word shouldn’t be final, the game should

[forest cave]

The games are what's canon. The relevance of the author's comments is artificial and depends entirely on how much of a shit the audience gives about them.

[radiant snow]

Bullseye. 💯

[forest cave]

Yeah. Also keep in mind that Hugo can simply change his mind. Games generally do not.

(With some exceptions.)

[gentle warren]

Kid named retcons

[radiant snow]

Hugo casually retconning the final boss of multiple games in one live stream by saying "the Whiplash is the first female demon" (his word is sacred)

[lyric kraken]

Ehh

Dam boy

[gentle warren]

No the spider mastermind and mother demon are actually FTM and transitioned before the fights, doomguy is incredibly transphobic and doesn’t respect their pronouns which is why they sealed him away

[forest cave]

Implying Doomguy is not himself a trans man.

[gentle warren]

Fuck…

you might’ve solved the doom lore…

[lyric kraken]

I really want to know what he said about Primeval because all the info I've heard about them has always been consistent

From Hugo's words

[forest cave]

This statement is especially crazy to me because like. I can understand forgetting the Spiderdemon, maybe the Imperatrix. But the others?

• One is literally called Mother
• One literally is fucking pregnant and has her breasts out

[gentle warren]

WHAT BOSS WAS PREGNANT???

[radiant snow]

Vagary

[lyric kraken]

Whats feo

[lyric kraken]

Who??

[forest cave]

Doom 3's Vagary is visibly pregnant. You can see a fetus resembling a Mancubus in her abdomen.

[lyric kraken]

Wtf

[radiant snow]

How is that a wtf-worthy thing

It's pretty crazy environmental storytelling if you pay attention earlier in the game. Quite eerie

[gentle warren]

Well I’m so dense to doom 3s story I didn’t catch that the commander was evil

[forest cave]

She also indeed has her tits out. The Making Of guide or whatever it was called had the devs explain their reasoning behind the Vagary's design:

Sexy + Gross = Creepy!

[gentle warren]

So that’s where I’m coming from

[radiant snow]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't :p

[gentle warren]

No he was

Sergeant Kelly or whoever

[lyric kraken]

The vagary never lasted long, always killed her very easily and paid no attention to her

[radiant snow]

He gets demonified but that's what happens to almost everyone at the base

[lyric kraken]

Very easy to kill

[radiant snow]

She's a pain on Veteran

[forest cave]

This is an interesting thing with 3's enemies, because the same level with the Vagary has a woman's voice screaming that they "took her baby," and it's unclear if this is the Vagary fucking with you or if the baby itself is the Vagary or what.

Doom 3 also has the Cherub enemies, which explicitly resemble human babies, and IIRC the Making Of stuff said the idea was that they are meant to look that way to either torment humans or trick them.

[lyric kraken]

Babies are a nightmare

Cherub

[forest cave]

3's depiction of a Hell that mimics humans without always possessing them is a neat little thing that the others don't really do.

[gentle warren]

I really like doom 3s hell because it feels demonic while the latter games lean into the alien designs

[radiant snow]

I always interpreted that line as the woman being demonified and it started with her developing baby

[gentle warren]

bruisers, cherubs, and trites my beloved

[forest cave]

Nekravol is peak Hell IMO

[forest cave]

Bruisers are the GOAT. God I wish we could've gotten them in Eternal.

[radiant snow]

At least we have them in a better game 😌

[forest cave]

Personally I like to think it is the Vagary getting into your head and fucking with you, since I imagine she's a distant relative of the Spiderdemon, and I like to headcanon those do the same thing.

(I wrote a story about that. It rocked. I want to write more Doom stuff but Resident Evil's got my attention ATM.)

[gentle warren]

Invite this man to my roleplay server where I play with tupper like a child playing with a dollhouse

[radiant snow]

DOOM 3's premise just inherently allowed for sick shit like this. You will never see this with the newer games

[forest cave]

One of the reasons I'm excited to see what they'll do for Doom whenever the Slayer is put to rest.
Alternatively: this shit would go so hard in a Quake reboot.

[radiant snow]

Quake reboot? Don't make me laugh

[forest cave]

Seriously a Quake reboot that hones in on dark action-horror would be the best way to bring back Doom 3's style without rocking the boat with nu-Doom fans and all.

[lyric kraken]

Waiting for the Primeval and Hayden things

[radiant snow]

Too bad TDA absolutely destroyed any potential for this lol lmao!!!

Love the game so so much but it cannibalized our chances at a new Quake 1 style game

[forest cave]

Ehhh. I disagree. TDA's Cosmic Realm is very different from Quake's stuff. I think they could still be very different.

Something to remember is IIRC we don't ever really actually visit the place Shub-N-word's goons come from. Just other worlds they are in.

[radiant snow]

Not to the average redditor though

[gentle warren]

I never found the cosmic realm similar to quake at all honestly

[radiant snow]

I'm not saying that they are 1:1 but I'm saying they are close enough that a new Quake 1 game would be called a cheap TDA by the casual audience

Same for Hexen

[lyric kraken]

Some parts reminded me of Xen from Half Life

Anyway, I don't like that Hugo is seen as someone completely untrustworthy and that all his statements are doubtful, knowing how he is when he talks about creating stories in interviews

They will never make me doubt you, my Lord Hugo

[winter oxide]

My friend same the same thing except he compared it to Black Mesa version of it and i still don't really see it...

[radiant snow]

And I don't like that you have to watch live streams to get the full view on the lore because he says a lot of new stuff there :p

We're all human after all, no shade to the guy obviously but I don't think this format works

[cerulean vessel]

He isn’t, we all love Hugo, but if every comment he made and every word in the codex is taken as truth, DOOM would make 0 sense

[forest cave]

I mean it doesn't have anything to do with Hugo himself. Every author is this, and if he really likes creating stories then I assume he sees the value in art as something the audience can interpret for themselves instead of have their views and enjoyment restrained by the artist's own beliefs and statements.

I don't think Hugo's words are wrong, either. I just think they aren't automatically right just because he's the main writer.

[forest cave]

Maybe. I dunno, I think you'd be surprised. Executives didn't have much faith in Doom 2016 thanks to shooters that had already released. They were proven wrong.

[lyric kraken]

[lyric kraken]

The latter, I think, is something we've seen since Eternal, he always talks about how the codex is a little bit open to interpretation and how things in the story are designed for us to connect the dots

[forest cave]

Sure, but this notion doesn't exactly work if we're expected to throw out our own interpretations in favor of random shit he said in interviews.

[gentle warren]

Id watching me kidnap Hugo and replace him (I end up cooking and bringing a renaissance for doom lore)

[forest cave]

(Especially if the random shit in question was never implied by the games.)

[lyric kraken]

[gentle warren]

Honestly I’m glad this server has this much media literacy I think I would’ve popped a blood vessel if you were all like “Doomguy is Jesus reincarnated and cannot die no matter what and he’s also stronger than earth breaker hulks at max power”

[radiant snow]

Just wait til you see general chat when school break's in lol

The heated arguments there get KELVINS hot (deep cut reference)

[gentle warren]

Im in school rn

[forest cave]

Like the Primeval shit I mentioned before that you were asking for. Nothing in Eternal implies Doomguy was "born" a Primeval. Nothing implies he had latent powers "unlocked" by the Divinity Machine. TAG2 provides overwhelming evidence that Doomguy was a normal human who had Davoth's powers transferred to him through the Divinity Machine, thus explaining Davoth's lack of powers in the campaign.

[gentle warren]

Why have my kind betrayed me

[gentle warren]

Call me stupid but I mainly just retcon the primeval stuff, way cooler if doomguy is born a normal guy than to be special through divine fate when that was never the intentional direction

[forest cave]

Or when asked why Hayden was okay with VEGA dying in 2016, just going "uh... um... because he wants to be in charge now so he's cool with it..." which is a blatantly bullshit answer that does not fit Samur's character at all, and directly contradicts his motivations in TAG1.

[lyric kraken]

Eeh

[gentle warren]

I can’t confirm it but something tells me Hugo would be ecstatic to officially rewrite the early doom lore to fit his vision instead of writing alongside it

[forest cave]

That's essentially what it is. At this point it's Hugo's words doing the retconning, not you - everything in the games tell you he was born a normal human. The only evidence he was born some kind of superhuman chosen one is Hugo saying so in vague words in an interview.

[forest cave]

I wouldn't go that far, actually. Eternal's cut content shows he seems to not want to "taint" the classic games.

[lyric kraken]

But it's something we see from Hayden, even in Urdak, Samuel implies that he would have done a better job than Khan Maykr, the main reason why he betrays her

It's something that's there, that Samur was someone who liked being in power

[lyric kraken]

His motivation in tag 1 is to revive the Father to save Urdak and himself

[forest cave]

This is in character for Hayden if it's regarding literally anyone but the Father. He shows nothing but complete reverence and loyalty to him.

[forest cave]

Yes - but becoming the Seraphim again is not at all important to this plan, and Hayden himself had no obligation to save Urdak by this point; he had successfully given himself a physical form that made him, on whatever level Hell's laws operate by, no longer a Maykr. If Hayden were truly this self-serving in regards to Urdak and the Father, he'd have had no reason to even want Urdak saved - all he would've cared about is purging Urdak of the demons.

The Davoth Primeval shit I mentioned IMO is blatantly implied by the game - this stuff not so much; but IMO it's clear that the best explanation for Hayden's actions in 2016 is simple: he didn't remember being the Seraphim. This correlates perfectly with what we know of the Maykrs.

• We know the Father's mind was too vast to be kept in its full faculties using non-Urdak tech.
• We know that Maykr consciousnesses are incompatible with flesh and blood, driving them insane as the Transfiguration afflicts them more.
• We know that the Seraphim transferred his consciousness into a human brain.

All of this provides a very simple and clear answer. He just doesn't remember being the Seraphim in 2016; he only has vague recollections and subconscious cues driving him to learn more about the Slayer and the Sentinels.

It also explains why he suddenly knows so much about the Maykrs, Urdak, the Sentinels, and Hell in Eternal: his mind was transferred to the Fortress of Doom, which had Maykr architecture and thus would've been able to support more of his "true" mind.

[gentle warren]

Wow I genuinely really like this explanation

[forest cave]

Thanks. I honestly have no clue why the game itself doesn't just say this when it already says the exact thing for VEGA not knowing his true identity.

Like. You can literally watch Hayden across the chronology and see that he becomes more invested and knowledgeable about Hell, the Sentinels, and Urdak as his mind escapes its flesh prison and starts to approach Maykr hardware.

I'm convinced that during the Atlantica level he is literally in the process of realizing who he is while we play the level.

[lyric kraken]

Honestly, every time they mention something like that about Primeval, I lose the desire to keep talking about it

That's something even Hugo talked about, Doom Guy was born human, not created by Davoth. What are the Primeval? Who are they, and how are they created?

And the rest is something that's implied in all the games, the Father's warning that only one Primeval could defeat another, the fact that the Slayer did not receive the full power of a Primeval, but only a fraction of it, is why he still has rivals like the Maykr and the Wraiths, In 2016 it was said that he was still increasing his strength, In Doom TDA literally frees himself from his tether because he hears humans die and the fact that he wasn't corrupted after dying, the fact that they refer to his existence as linked to the struggle between good and evil, he is the concept of protector

And in the end, a Corrax tablet literally appears, implying that he will only return when he is needed

[forest cave]

I don't agree the Slayer only has a fraction of Davoth's power. IMO Davoth stating that the Maykrs "stole his power," combined with the Slayer usurping his mark, convinces me that the Slayer has the exact powers Davoth had at his peak.

(Which itself is why I'm not convinced Davoth created the Earthly Realms.)

[wicked turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-doom-the-dark-ages-doom-true-launch-the-true-doom-launch-the-true-gif-17039720600748597696

[lyric kraken]

And at the same time, Davoth, the Father, and the Codex say that he created everything

You win, boy, I give up

How tiring

[lyric kraken]

The kreed has metallic breasts, and the worms are its offspring and feed on them

[forest cave]

Well, they say very vague sentences that can kinda sorta imply this.

1.) If you feel Hugo's statements should be taken as fact, then their statements are already contradicted. The Father states:

By his hand, all things were made... even you.
and Hugo says "nah, he didn't make Doomguy."

But 2.) Davoth creating the Father, who then created the Earthly Realms, is direct enough that Davoth IMO would absolutely claim he has a right to invade those worlds.

And 3.) Davoth creating a bunch of worlds just to invade them (why can't he just... un-create them...?) is a bit silly when the guy's motivations are basically nationalism for a world he created.

[lyric kraken]

He didn't do it directly; technically, Davoth, by creating the Maykr and then everything that happened, caused him to create Doom Guy

[wicked turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/eric-eric-tao-ken-leung-industry-industry-hbo-gif-13702557412707969815

[lyric kraken]

I said it jokingly, but technically that was the case with almost everything

[lyric kraken]

The udders of the kreed were indirectly created by Davoth

[lyric kraken]

It gave the Father a chance to defend himself, and at the same time Hell "began to exist," and Hell is very mischievous, it does not destroy things but grows stronger through suffering

[forest cave]

That works fine. Either way it supports what I'm saying.

[lyric kraken]

Neither what I said nor what Hugo said, because he said before that Doom Guy wasn't created by him

[forest cave]

Sure, and then he contradicted himself by saying he did.

[lyric kraken]

Neither what the codex says, Davoth had to manipulate people to create the Slayer, he didn't create him directly

[forest cave]

The Codex doesn't say that either.

[lyric kraken]

Ehh

[forest cave]

I don't think he created him at all. Doomguy was born to two human parents, and then was put in a position where he became the person Davoth would eventually want to destroy the Maykrs.

[lyric kraken]

The codex explains that Davoth manipulated Khan Maykr and Samur into taking someone to the Dignity Machine

Dignity

[forest cave]

Yes. This is the Codex explaining that Davoth manipulated people to create the Slayer.

[lyric kraken]

I wrote Doom Guy by accident

[forest cave]

OK.

But anyway yeah shit doesn't really make sense if we assume Davoth actually did just wave his hands and create entire realities. He wouldn't have to invade shit, there wouldn't even be a need for a military because he can just snap his fingers and undo anything.

Ultimately Davoth is not a true God. Like every other character that tries to claim that title, he's a lot more banal once you dig past the myth and just look at the truth.

[wicked turtle]

I’m not trying to deny that Doomguy likes Argent D’Nur, but I find so strange that a man with such a strong sense of justice is cool with Sentinels having slaves and gladiatorial games.

[forest cave]

Hmm. An actually very interesting point.

I don't necessarily think the Sentinels had slave labor. I think what they had was, technically, a slave military force through prisoners enlisted to fight in the Sentinel Army. Which is still slave shit for sure - but America still has slaves now, we just make prisoners work without pay and decide it's okay.

Doomguy comes from America - I can see him seeing something like that as normalized.

[lyric kraken]

The Colosseum only allowed prisoners to fight so they could join the army

Criminals, And as we know, the Sentinels were good guys, they liberated worlds and all, they traveled through dimensions, although they were tricked into spreading the Maykr religion, there is nothing to suggest they did very bad things

[wicked turtle]

I feel he probably had opinions on the US prison system too. I mean, it’s the same guy who beat the shit out of his commanding officer.

[wicked turtle]

Oh shit yeah the sentinel were colonizers too! I forgot about that.

[forest cave]

True.

Something I think is important to remember is that the Doomguy who came to Argent D'Nur was an utterly broken man. I think a lot of his love for the Sentinels comes from a very base thing: that after so long he'd found comrades to support him in his fight against Hell, and for the first time that fight didn't feel like he was alone in it.

The fact that they're a culture focused heavily on strength and honor and all that shit helps.

[lyric kraken]

Although they also treated him badly, they didn't help him with his wounds and illnesses

[forest cave]

I think to Doomguy he appreciated making a friend who didn't immediately get his head vaporized by a Hell Knight more than anything like that.

[jovial remnant]

i just finished ancient gods 2 and im so confused on why tf vega is the father and samuel hayden is the seraphim

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/todd-howard-it-just-works-bethesda-this-all-just-works-gif-20598651

[jovial remnant]

no it doesnt, why would the almighty father, creator of worlds, decide to embed his conciousness into a random AI?

[raw pine]

he didnt

samur did

[sonic violet]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-no-nonono-noooo-cat-no-gif-13597132752790194338

[jovial remnant]

conusofuin

[sonic violet]

eternal's dlc lore is kinda buns ngl

[raw pine]

dlc lore that includes davoth so im going to have to disagree

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-it's-just-the-way-it-is-i'm-just-the-messenger-gif-6270475095135913721

[coral vale]

I like the switchup between the codex entries in TAG1 and the truth revealed in TAG2, it's a fun play on the unreliable narrator

and the Dark Lord being the Creator is just so completely... Doom
it's like metal lyrics

not thinking of any song in particular just... it's that kind of thing

[raw pine]

I AM

@coral vale check music

[lapis saffron]

I mean I guess

It’s very modern doom less so old doom

[quaint geyser]

I find the backstory TAG2 tells way more interesting than TAG1 anyways

[gentle warren]

We can consider Legacy of Rust canon, right?

[lapis saffron]

It was developed with the help of the modern ID team so I imagine it does count as canon

but if it isn't referenced in the modern games Hugo is probably not that bothered with paying attention to its contents

i was very disappointed when the arachnotron were literally mindweavers in TDA and it never came up (though both were developed alongside each other, so i get not being able to add references to it)

[forest cave]

Over time I eventually found I agree with this. The Father having created Davoth was a fine idea and it's more palatable to people, but IMO the other way around presents a more interesting backstory and dynamic for the characters.

[feral scarab]

ARC Complex has such a sick skybox, I wonder where on Earth it is

The mountains really give off that northwest USA vibe, so I could imagine it being in Seattle or smth

[cerulean vessel]

I feel like at some point in the game or codexes they might’ve showed us where on a map

[lapis saffron]

I’m pretty sure ARC Complex is the only one that wasn’t placed

[wintry perch]

https://youtu.be/qexxtwomx3Q?si=XS2a7y0IC0p1Jtzm

im legitimately impressed by the disparity shown between the amazing visual and musical storytelling in comparison to the actual story

i will say exultia has arguably two of the few good story cutscenes in the game and it's the betrayer and king Novik cutscenes. They actually take themselves seriously and you can:
A. Feel the history between the Slayer and them.
B. Feel the sorrow of Argent D'nurs state as well as Novik's and Valen's sheer spiritual exhaustion from the conflict
C. Due to the seriousness and melancholy portrayed here theres, at least in my opinion, a natural desire to look for the corraxes because these characters are portrayed in the short amount of time as something serious you should care about

I say this alot but I wish Eternal was consistent with it's tone like 2016 and TDA, I wish all cutscenes had the tone these two, some of the Sentinel Prime cutscenes and the intro had, properly sell us the fact that the universe of Doom has never been in a worse state by the start of Eternal

[feral scarab]

This ambient medley is so amazing

Only thing keeping me sane in that Taras Nabad master level 😅

[wintry perch]

it is fire yeah

[lapis saffron]

idk i feel like novik is kind of... like... awkward?

i wish he was introduced better yk? like outside of codexes

[feral scarab]

Fr, especially Eternal Prophecy. I think it’s so cool how you can hear a faint version of the Maykr theme play near the beginning of that track

[lapis saffron]

when you meet a character in 2016 youre told (or can instantly know) wtf their deal is whereas Novik is sort of dropped there

[lapis saffron]

it's such a great track

[wintry perch]

admittedly i prefer the betrayer cutscene

novik is known to be a king, the Slayer bows down to him momentarily, that tells u plenty imo

also the fact he's sort of a ghost tells u he is in fact long dead

i always appreciated the Slayer bows down as a sign of respect but walks out when Novik starts talking bout some "don't"

he respects the king but he can't possibly say no to saving his people

and personally, I perceive Novik being pessimistic and "don't kill the priests" as a product of him being exhausted of endless conflict

I also appreciate the consistency between 2016 and Eternal, in regards to how the Slayer initially treats Samuel and how he treats Valen. It's clear that just because you involved yourself with demons or inadvertently caused demons to kill more, the Slayer won't INSTANTLY merc you for that

Valen and him have history, and there's no real point in killing him anymore. And in my opinion if you read that scene between them both, the Slayer only gets pissy when Valen holds on to the celestial locator on some "you sure about this?" but then stops to listen as soon as he talks about Marok

I always appreciated the Slayers little nuances when it comes to dealing with questionable folk. TDA muddied the waters a bit by having the Slayer in gameplay slice humans in half with the shield saw bc they are cultists, but i understand why he does that

[winter oxide]

I'm certain he would have sliced Olivia in half if he had chance to

[wintry perch]

definitely

there's levels to this

[quaint geyser]

honestly I think Eternal has the best ambient tracks, a lot of them really stood out to me

[wintry perch]

honestly kind of agreed

TDA has some standouts but Eternals ambient peaks are just something else

Exultia/Taras Nabad, Doom Hunter Base, Hell on Earth, Super Gore Nest, Urdak, Nekravol are all fantastic, don't even get me started on the dlc

[coral vale]

that deep deep chanting in Cultist Base 😄

I love when game music is bold enough to use vocals especially so creatively

[quaint geyser]

there's a reference to Sinister in that one too which is lovely

[coral vale]

yeah, I got actual shivers when I noticed it doing that the first time

[feral scarab]

My favorite ambience is either Eternal Prophecy or the Nekravol Doom Metal riffs

https://youtu.be/GlveXQPOU_s?si=1bNizttJ7WiaNJLg

These are so insanely dark

[quaint geyser]

i love how Nekravol's ambience perfectly reflects the feeling of actually ascending the tower. It just gets more and more sinister and evil as it keeps going, I love it

[feral scarab]

Oh that was awesome, there’s also another Sinister reference in the Reclaimed Earth ambience

[feral scarab]

I’d like to imagine each riff corresponding to a different part of the soul extraction process

[quaint geyser]

the track, both combat and ambient, has the screams of the damned heard all throughout so I don't doubt that's what Mick was going for

[reef fog]

My favorite is Urdak, the ambience is so beautiful

[feral scarab]

Oh that one rocks

Although, I think it’s best enjoyed together with the combat theme

https://youtu.be/SQ8p08BA-1I?si=z4Fy-WF6xnT3Hl1M

Incredibly underrated, the bass textures are so nice

[wintry perch]

this one lowk might be my favorite bu its hard to choose

[wintry perch]

this one is also spectacular, it's the musical part of the level telling you "yes this is Dooms heaven and it SUCKS"

so uncanny, just like it should be. So much suffering all for the few makyrs at the top

[feral scarab]

I think Eternal Prophecy just about outweighs it for me, since it’s more of a proper track. These are awesome, but there’s definitely some bias on my end just because Nekravol - Part II is my favorite level

[feral scarab]

There’s a really great comment on that video talking about how paradise was massacred or smth

[wintry perch]

there's a comment on that video I think I directly quoted here some months back

[feral scarab]

Probably the same one lol

[wintry perch]

Makyrs are essentially the most pure form of false prophets

[feral scarab]

It’s very fitting of Urdak, especially the Holt

[wintry perch]

i think that was the jist of it

lowk though, all their robotic elements mixed with the rotting ugly flesh really gives hints that yeah these are just more devils in disguise, aka false prohot

while I don't much like Eternal's story outside of the hype moments and aura, I do love individual elements of it

Urdak and everything around it is baller for one, and Nekravols horrid torture to produce pure argent energy is the most metal shit ever

[feral scarab]

True. You can also tell something is off based off the Urdak underground segment, it’s like their foundation is rotten

[wintry perch]

i like that the visuals literally show you the cages of moving rotting humans, its so gross i love it

[wintry perch]

it's fucking awesome that the only way to "heaven" is through it's horrible foundation

[quaint geyser]

Eternal's story has the Outlast II problem for me where like, it's not that the story itself is bad, the way it's told is bad

[wintry perch]

kinda agree

[feral scarab]

I really do hope we get more proper Urdak levels, shame there isn’t exactly any reason to go there before DOOM Eternal. We only really have Urdak, The Holt, random architecture in Immora, and parts of Nekravol, UAC Atlantica, and the Blood Swamps

[wintry perch]

i think it's one of those "scarcity makes it better" type things

[feral scarab]

True, but I do wish we got a proper excursion

Kinda like the Cosmic Realm in TDA

[wintry perch]

it's not like the Cosmic realm that's huge, Urdaks the core of so much

[quaint geyser]

I have this same opinion of the Cosmic Realm, which is why I hope its inclusion in the DLC is kept even more to a minimum. I know it's DOOM and all but less is truly more

[wintry perch]

Cosmic realm is awesome too, I like how since it's the Slayer basically trekking to find Thira, it's an odyssey. The descriptions basically being "The Slayer keeps walking" for all levels

it adds to the mystique of it to have the descriptions boil down to "keep going buddy"

[radiant snow]

I wish we'd get Urdak in a game I adore

[quaint geyser]

it did feel like a proper adventure type part of the game, I always like the levels like that in these games. World Spear gave me a similar vibe even if it was just one level

[coral vale]

I like that it takes the time to let it sink in how... you don't know where you are you don't know how to get back

[wintry perch]

both the comments above me i agree with

[coral vale]

it makes the place feel more oppressive for being longer

[feral scarab]

Yeah the World Spear was awesome, maybe a 2 part Urdak level could be satisfying enough

[wintry perch]

lowk the only thing I liked about the world spear outside of the ending visually was the fact it felt like a huge trek across a long distance, micro adventure basically

when your doing the lil platforming challenges near the cliff on the snowy part you look at the mountains and go "oh wow I've moved a long distance haven't i"

[feral scarab]

The World Spear itself was also great, really our first look at the Cosmic Realm

[wintry perch]

wait yeah ur right

i forgot that by mere implication it's understandable to believe that the world spear came from the cosmic realm

[feral scarab]

It’s like a crashed spaceship, which is insanely cool

[wintry perch]

that shit wasn't flung by a mysterious creature it literally came crashing down into argent dnur from the cosmic realm

[wintry perch]

a crashed spaceship the size of the moon too

well I'm not sure I have the scale of the world spear properly understood admittedly but still

[quaint geyser]

i mean it's not even implied, it's dead ass the case. The whole eye thing and the wraiths coming from it is a dead giveaway. The World Spear was a test run to see how people would feel about exploring Lovecraftian environments in a DOOM game

[wintry perch]

i wonder if the world spear was designed to bring life into worlds it stabbed or it was just natural luck

[coral vale]

also Azrahk literally tells you this is where it came from

[quaint geyser]

I'd say it'd be more luck based. No real reason, just sounds more fitting and in the line with the beginning of time itself. Just a series of coincidences and things being in the right place at the right time

[coral vale]

also more in line with Lovecraftian themes
all this stuff that's so important to us earthly (argentish?) things was just a random cosmic fluke

[wintry perch]

agreed

i prefer it being luck too

[feral scarab]

It being random feels more cosmic lol, I dunno how to explain it

[wintry perch]

oh totally

[feral scarab]

Maybe our next dive into the Cosmic Realm will be more akin to the World Spear, as in full of crystals and blue hues, that could be cool

[quaint geyser]

yeah it was kinda weird how none of the Cosmic Realm environments resembled the World Spear's interior

aside from the eye imagery

[coral vale]

maybe 'cause the Wraiths left so long ago

[quaint geyser]

wait holy shit that actually could be it. The World Spear is how the Cosmic Realm looked before the Wraiths left

[feral scarab]

Truee

[quaint geyser]

that actually makes so much sense lol

[wintry perch]

Hugo, listen to us...

[feral scarab]

It does feel a lot more pristine than the cosmic realm we visit

[wintry perch]

"dying cosmos"

[feral scarab]

Almost like The Holt vs Urdak

[wintry perch]

this implies it didn't always look this bad

"Slayer I promise you my crib didn't always look this shit" - The Old one

actually now that I think of it would the Old one and their kind be like, lower status when the wraiths were around?

[quaint geyser]

tbf I think the Old One is the one who turned it to shit

[feral scarab]

Another idea they could take on is a chunk of either Hell or Urdak melding with the Cosmic Realm, they love doing that kinda stuff (and already did with the shipwrecks)

[feral scarab]

Yeah I could see that

[coral vale]

Cosmic Urdak would be very cool

[feral scarab]

Urdak but green and melted or smth

[wintry perch]

Makyrs made a lil outpost in Cosmic realm

"So Samur Makyr I rented a place on the city of Ry'uul you gotta come over"

[feral scarab]

Here’s an idea. What if the Maykrs took the idea of converting worlds to their beliefs too far, and got lost in the Cosmic Realm on a crusade

[quaint geyser]

now I like to imagine Hell and Urdak just playing tug of war with the Cosmic Realm like "ITS MY TURN TO PLAY WITH IT!!"

[wintry perch]

sounds raw

[feral scarab]

Leaving behind a lost Maykr fort or smth

[wintry perch]

yeah, like that one Doom 3 theory that said the ancient civilization was a lost group of Sentinels that came from the 2016-Eternal-TDA verse Hebeth

[feral scarab]

True

[feral scarab]

A Cosmic Realm Urdak could be a good way of reusing the Maykr drones for a DLC too

[quaint geyser]

that absolutely SHOULD be the case, it's literally the perfect way to connect DOOM 3 and make this whole medieval war thing not come out of nowhere since none of this Sentinel/Cosmic stuff was implied to exist in Classic DOOM

[wintry perch]

(And the Doomguy portrayed in ancient paintings or whatnot was the actual guy we know and love before landing in Argent D'nur)

[feral scarab]

I like to imagine that DOOM 3 takes place while Doom Slayer is trapped in the coffin, meaning Hell can do whatever they want

That probably is canon, but Idk

[wintry perch]

unlikely

It's a different earth completely

[feral scarab]

It’s definitely in a separate Earth dimension yeah

But Hell is likely the same Hell

[wintry perch]

I'll always subscribe to the "martian hero is Doomguy fighting alongside a group of lost Sentinels that would later be known as said ancient civilization"

[feral scarab]

Yeah that fits well I think

[wintry perch]

when a fan theory is so good you gotta beg the guys up top to canonize it

hell that happened with Sonic with some MAYOR stuff

[quaint geyser]

well im weird and like to believe 3 Mars and 2016 Mars are the same. There's a lot of conflicting evidence but I dunno. It's like the idea that DOOM 3 is the reawakening of Hell after eons of dormancy. And I mean there's a lot of lore carried over from 3 into 2016

[wintry perch]

that's odd bc like how would there be two different but still similar Mars facilities and corporations?

[quaint geyser]

they could just be the same facility that just looks different because of the time they were made it, or different areas of the same facility

[feral scarab]

I can see that yeah. By my view I think Hell’s corruption of one Mars influenced the other

[coral vale]

I think that time should get wonky between different dimensions that kinda all have their own flow of time, and if the same Hell lies beneath all of them it's gotta have some wonky time concepts of its own to relate to all those different dimensions
so from our perspectives in the modern canon the timeline of when Doom 3 happens would look like relativity except even weirder

[wintry perch]

maybe humanity reset or something, like after Doom 3 humanity momentarily collapsed, they got back up and that's Doom 2016s mankind

[wintry perch]

very unlikely

[coral vale]

like it happened multiple times across history that were also all at the same time if you squint at time right

[feral scarab]

The Argent Fracture on 2016 Mars could very likely be an abandoned gateway created on accident while trying to reach DOOM 3 Mars

[quaint geyser]

yeah, it's just a silly headcanon of mine. I just really like DOOM 3 and it pains me to see so many disregard it

[wintry perch]

i don't wanna disregard it either, I just wanna fit it in the puzzle properly

[feral scarab]

They saw potential in Betruger and didn’t yet have Olivia, so the portal would be of no use

[coral vale]

I just like the idea that Hell has some weird relativity effects on time between dimensions and Doom 3 would be the perfect timeline to show that because it's so unconnected to the one we're in

[quaint geyser]

they definitely do, I mean aint no way Valen's been alive for fuckin eons without some weird Hell shenanigans

[feral scarab]

Fr

[quaint geyser]

then again there's also all those Sentinels still on Argent D'Nur so.. ahhh i dunno

[wintry perch]

his son is an icon maybe that helped

[wintry perch]

those just seem like normal Sentinels who descended from the ones we saw in TDA, simple

[quaint geyser]

tru

[feral scarab]

I think it’s likely that Hell has time in a different way than we do

[quaint geyser]

it's probably like some eternal punishment type stuff, like "yeah you doomed ur entire species and u gotta live with it bitch"

[coral vale]

it could explain why Valen's ritual to bring back the Slayer was important, otherwise he might have returned to Argent D'nur... in the time of the Ancestrals

[wintry perch]

nah that's funny but there's no way that's a possibility

or else the Slayer would be thrown around time like crazy

[feral scarab]

Which DOOM level had an eclipse again? I swore I remember seeing that in a Hell level once

[coral vale]

well he kinda has been, between these three games

[feral scarab]

Well I think he has tbf, his time on Argent D’Nur and Hebeth was before our time

[quaint geyser]

i mean doom is just the silly little adventures of some guy across time, space and hell itself at the end of day

[feral scarab]

True

[wintry perch]

i always imagined time was linear, in the sense that you could travel forward but not backwards

in Doom i just presumed the ending of 64-TDA was literally just the original Dooms Earth being really old

like these different Earth's have human civilization at different stages in different time periods

[feral scarab]

That could be possible I guess

[wintry perch]

modern earth would be barren by the time of og Dooms Earth civilization for example

[quaint geyser]

yea i can get behind that, backwards time travel is dumb and usually used for plot convenience

[feral scarab]

It’s definitely a different world, 90s media is famous for portraying the future as extremely near

[wintry perch]

basically my point at the end of the day

[gentle warren]

Whose to say that hell is bounded by time?

[wintry perch]

the laws of aging and shit could be skewered in some parts of hell

[quaint geyser]

it isnt, that's my point. it's like it stops in Hell or smth

therefore, no aging

[feral scarab]

Hell’s population still ages, but I believe change itself is a bit warped in there, such as with the weird gravity

[wintry perch]

didnt Davoth imply life wasn't eternal in hell ever since the beginning

[quaint geyser]

oh yeah that's right the Immoran people

[feral scarab]

Each circle of Hell in DOOM seems to be suspended on a floating island

[gentle warren]

If we assume hell is sentient in some way (It definitely is) then I can imagine it intentionally warping people’s sense of time

[wintry perch]

Davoth realizing people can die

[quaint geyser]

literally his whole motive yeah i totally forgot lol

[wintry perch]

https://tenor.com/view/car-breaking-bad-cant-breathe-gif-7618601

[gentle warren]

are we slandering now

[feral scarab]

That’s another thing. Where is each layer of Hell? Because sometimes the lower levels appear as being brighter or not at all underground

[gentle warren]

Non-Euclidean hell?

[feral scarab]

I think so yeah

[quaint geyser]

does DOOM's Hell really have traditional layers? cuz it doesn't really seem like it to me atleast

[gentle warren]

Non-Euclidean in the same way Ultrakills non-fraud layers are. You can walk through expecting to end up where you were going but the environments themselves aren’t bound by space

[feral scarab]

Because the Blood Swamps are implied to be below Dis, through the blood canyon we see at Nekravol (which would be on the 6th level if we’re looking through the Dante lense). But the Blood Swamps seem to be quite bright and less cloudy than the rest of Hell, even having a piece of Urdak in the sanctum

[steady pewter]

Really

I hope not,i don't want id to introduce fast baby enemies

[feral scarab]

It does kinda, I mean the Titan’s Realm seems to be a flat layer floating above some void

[steady pewter]

But you know why doom is so good?

[feral scarab]

Baby zombies 💔

[steady pewter]

Because it doesn't have sniper enemies

[quaint geyser]

doom 3 had baby demons

[steady pewter]

Were they fast

[feral scarab]

True…

[quaint geyser]

they'd annoyingly lunge at you, so kinda?

[steady pewter]

Thats why people consider it the worst one

Now imagine baby sniper enemies

[feral scarab]

Also. I believe either the codex or the Intern says something about Immora being in the deepest region of Hell, which does make me believe there are some form of layers

[quaint geyser]

even by doom standards, that'd be a whole new level of braindead nonsense

[steady pewter]

Hell is an allegory for Garfield lasagnas

[coral vale]

I think "baby sniper" was the development name for the internal tactical droid enemy in Descent 2... but they ended up less... snipey

[quaint geyser]

the Father refers to it as "the most ancient part of Hell"

[feral scarab]

Ahhh, true, I misremembered it then

One thing that also confuses me is the mechanics of limbo in DOOM Hell. Because the unwilling we see on the road to Styx are all in spirit form somehow, but they’re suddenly regular humans by the end of the soul extraction process. I guess it could be a different thing entirely, but it’s still weird to me

[coral vale]

I think the difference is the maykrs haven't made their deal with hell yet, so they aren't doing that
the Harbour itself is probably abandoned by Eternal's time

when everybody regardless of how they lived gets judged as... meat

[quaint geyser]

that works yeah

[feral scarab]

I forgot about that, the Maykrs didn’t deal with Hell until later. You’re probably right

[coral vale]

to be fair, it's probably quite soon 😄

[feral scarab]

Lol true

[quaint geyser]

it's probably gonna happen like right after honestly

[coral vale]

maybe during the DLC

[feral scarab]

I hope so, but also think that’ll be inbetween both games

[quaint geyser]

that's probably their reasoning for bringing the Khan back

[coral vale]

I don't see why else they would, yeah

[feral scarab]

The Argenta civil war seems like a big of a deal

[feral scarab]

Maybe we’ll at least see the deal itself

[coral vale]

I hope we do, that'd just be awesome

[feral scarab]

I hope the order of the six are involved

They could even meet in the Cosmic Realm tbf

[coral vale]

oooh, neutral ground!

[feral scarab]

Exactly

[coral vale]

maybe that's why we're going back

[feral scarab]

That would be so awesome

I would also love to see a cutscene of Dis being built, Nekravol and all that

[forest cave]

These are separate processes. Someone else said this but to elaborate:
Soul extraction doesn't exist in TDA, at least not in how Eternal depicts it. In TDA, it's a natural process: those killed by demons are sucked into Hell, where they wonder Hell for many years until their souls leak out of their bodies and pool into Wells, becoming Hell's Essence, while the body either becomes demon biomatter or a Zombie.

The Harbor of Souls appears to be a transitionary point, with this being the waystation between death and manifestation in Hell proper.

[feral scarab]

Aha, that’s cool

[forest cave]

Once the pact with Urdak began, Nekravol was built and now the process is industrialized by slave labor and Hell torture machines, making the process much faster. We don't know if the Harbor of Souls still exists after this; perhaps it's obsolete, or it remains the same.

[feral scarab]

Thanks for the insight!

[forest cave]

Also yeah, like dimspree said, Immora is the oldest part of Hell. Considering it can't be entered from Hell itself by non-demons, I personally do believe it's on a separate "layer."

We can see it sort of like three layers.

1: Immora (inaccessible, usually)
2: Hell (can be mapped out, has a finite geography)
3: Harbor of Souls

Different planes of reality.

[feral scarab]

I see, I guess the main Hell could be more of a product of Davoth’s anger and the consumption of other worlds

[forest cave]

With Hell the idea is everything there is either Jekkad corrupted by Davoth's rage, or land absorbed from other worlds.

[feral scarab]

Mhm

[coral vale]

I like to think the Harbour process would get industrialized as well, it would make a neat parallel to older mythologies being supplanted by newer religions since the Harbour seems to draw a lot from classical underworlds

[forest cave]

TLDR summary:
||Davoth fights the pre-angelic Maykrs on an ancient world called Babel, and is hailed as their hero. In reality he intends to take control of the land once he's found an artifact that can un-seal Jekkad. The machines win the conflict and use this artifact to remake themselves as the angelic, divine Maykrs, and Davoth is thrust back into his homeworld.||

||Davoth returns back to Babel a century later to find them worshipping the Maykrs. Enraged, he uses the Reality Core to channel this rage and transform those he kills into Demons, revealing the Nephilim to be the predecessors of Imps. He conquers Isonkast, now calling it Dis, and revives a loyal Nephilim priest Rectabus, who becomes the Mother Demon. He drives the Maykrs out of Babel and the land becomes the first world absorbed into Hell, with much of the setting revealed to be DOOM (1993)'s Inferno.||

I know some of you would be interested in this so I'm posting it here. Again, NBD if a mod says this veers too much into fanfic territory to be here.

Ugh. God damn it. It deleted the pictures but they're still showing on mine, just realized that.

[forest cave]

Hi, I want to post my story concept for a Doom prequel following Davoth. So here it is.

Not sure if this counts as "fanfiction." I've posted other fan projects involving lore here before and it's been fine. If this isn't, I'll delete it.

4/5

5/5

I kind of thought of it more like a side-game prequel idea but yeah.

I'll be working on the guide more soon. Got sidetracked by RE.

[feral scarab]

That's a cool way of looking at it, I agree

[wintry perch]

are the blood swamps just where the leftovers from Nekravol arrive or are they bigger

cause Blood Swamps always seemed to me like, part of hell but more special idk

[forest cave]

They're presumed to border Nekravol, given Hayden says souls are discarded there.

We know this area was always part of Jekkad, not absorbed - it was called the Pleasure Lakes before Davoth got butthurt.

[wintry perch]

ohh

when it comes to parts of hell that look a-typicial we have blood swamps and harbor of souls and probably some part of 2016 i forgot

thing abt 2016 is that hell seems to consist of flying islands?

[wicked turtle]

I thought Nekravol was in The Blood Swamps

[wintry perch]

different biome/area for sure but interesting nonetheless

[wintry perch]

where the ground go? Or is it basically just the sky of Hell? Idk

[forest cave]

Interesting. Kind of depends on how it's mapped. The way I see it, the Blood Swamps are a bog within the Nekravol region. That's just me though.

[wintry perch]

I wonder if the 2016 sky stuff is floating above the ground hell we see in Eternal and TDA

[wicked turtle]

I thought Nekravol was a city inside a region/state

[forest cave]

This is interesting too, because IIRC Kadingir Sanctum (which we see is up in the sky) is said to border the Great Steppe (Titan's Realm) and the Umbral Plains (final level in 2016). And those levels are generally shown to be terrestrial. It's possible all of this is technically "up in the sky."

[wintry perch]

maybe its like, flying islands nearing a elevated piece of terrain (the more terrestrial levels)

[forest cave]

Think of it like this. If you cut off a huge chunk of Earth, big enough that you couldn't see the edge from the middle, and you put it 20 miles in the sky - ignoring atmospheric shit you wouldn't feel like you're "in the sky." You would feel like you're on the ground.

[wintry perch]

yes that

you beat me to it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/596524801363935243/1484292665158664383/Screenshot_20260319-174849.Google.png?ex=69bdb2c4&is=69bc6144&hm=956028bc71760baf8e67769b9377200e2402605b06f0a20dc5cc824b5e6ff0dd&

it would be cool if it was just a piece of highly elevated terrain doe lol

[forest cave]

Nekravol is said to be a city, yeah. You can substitute what I said for whatever region Hell would consider Nekravol to be within.

[wintry perch]

btw I'm surprised that Doom never did anything with the biggest mountain in the Solar System located entirely on Mars

[forest cave]

Emphasis on city. Nekravol isn't just the level we play, that is specifically the Nekravol Citadel. The Citadel is surrounded by a huge Hell city. If I had to guess it would be very big by Hell standards as their society doesn't seem to naturally congregate in cities like humans do.

[wintry perch]

like I imagine they'd pull some bs explanation for it but like that's what i come for anyways

my headcanon is that Olympus Mons is just the result of some experiment on Hebeth gone horribly wrong

[feral scarab]

The Blood Swamps is likely where the blood drainage goes from Nekravol, I guess it's down the river or smth

Probably extremely far away, since we only see faint cities in the distance of the Blood Swamps

[feral scarab]

That city is Dis, right?

[forest cave]

Nekravol and Dis are two different cities, no.

[feral scarab]

Ah ok

I thought that one Order of the Six member located near Nekravol was the overseer of Dis or smth

The lord they replaced with Kalibas

[forest cave]

Erebus. He appears to be from a draft of Eternal where Nekravol was the Tower of Babel.

But they scrapped that.

[feral scarab]

Oh

[forest cave]

@glacial stream sorry yeah I meant Eternal. I'm out right now and can't provide a screen cap but this is very early in the level.

[glacial stream]

i know where it is. man, had eternal installed not too long ago. coulda checked. couldn't be asked to install it again just for this. i do not care that badly 😭

[forest cave]

This is less an explicit confirmation and more a lot of info that leads you to this.

• Sentinel scripture on ancient artifacts on Earth
• Colony was present on Earth
• TDA confirms Sentinels are humans
• 2016 heavily implies a connection to Doom 3's Martians, which Doom 3 explicitly implies were the progenitors of humans
• Codex info tells us Sentinel colonies were "disparate" thanks to long space travel times until the Bethian Clansmen briefly fixed this with teleporters, explaining how humans would have forgotten their origins

[eager drift]

found a pic on reddit https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/892238793174818848/1484301304514875502/this-church-bell-in-hell-on-earth-has-some-interesting-v0-7pz7wpmrlgcg1.png?ex=69bdbacf&is=69bc694f&hm=66229eafc15f66a5d115a9b8f3717652568de7e07d3daebd7d834d8d775b9dfb

[glacial stream]

hmm. i mean i don't speak sentinel exactly but sure looks like their writing and symbols

[quaint geyser]

their portals also look very similar. The portal that the first Hunter demon appears from in Resurrection of Evil bares resemblance to the portal that leads to the final area of the Hebeth level

[nimble void]

I wonder if someone lives or used to live in all the Hell structures we visit through the games, specially the ones in TDA

[wintry perch]

i mean, maybe some Baron's and Archvilles and Tyrants? Their said to be intelligent, high ranking citizens of hell

[raw pine]

sorta? royal demons likely sleep in castles or ships like ahzrak’s ship, or his castle. however, hell, as a complete realm, people have lived in the structures that were built. people, not demons, because hell was far more peaceful and heavenly before it fell into disarray.

immorans live in those giant cities and have been for eons, so

i personally believe that the architecture we destroy in hellbreaker are the homes of demons/sentient life in hell. however, demons like the caco, pinky, komodo, etc probably sleep just like wild animals and rest in the middle of nowhere.

archviles and tyrants, like mentioned, probably live in those homes, if not those castles that ahzrak lives in. tyrants are probably native to nekravol, though. thats just my view because they are the ones who process mortals as they arrive in hell, overseeing the extraction of their souls.

the only canon cases where we see a demon actually sleeping (afaik and all i remember) are maligog and maybe davoth. we have to wake up maligog in the blood swamps in order to go to the ingmore sanctum, and davoth maybe just chills and sleeps in his orb

[cerulean vessel]

Do the demons even need to sleep though?

[feral scarab]

There are also the more classic demons in TDA like Ahzrak, I’m betting on there being more basic humanoids like him

[lyric kraken]

A little fact you might not know

There are 2 codex entries that were not added to TDA, the Atlan and the Royal Atlan they are in the game files

But in TDA's art book, the Atlan codex does appear, exactly as it appears in the game files

The other Atlan Codex wasn't included there

The Royal Atlan is a formidable monument to the Sentinels' royal lineage, crafted from ghost steel. This alloy enhances the Atlan's durability and enables the use of its specialized siege cannons. These twin weapons are capable of focusing the colossal energy of a supernova and delivering extremely powerful and accurate strikes. Once piloted by King Novik, the Royal Atlan is destined for the supreme rulers of the Sentinels, as its pilot must possess the talents of a leader.