the-codex

[tired sand]

Both got emotional impact on the stories and I loved the experiences

But we're still yet to experience a really good cosmic horror game

The genre is really hard to nail but clear understanding of what it's trying to convey is needed

[twilit heart]

Ye. I liked Sinking City tho? I liked the inevitability of the endings.

It wasnt the best thing, far from it, but I liked it.

[tired sand]

I've played that too. I'm a big horror guy lol

Maybe delving much deeper into obscure horror might bring out elements of cosmic horror too

Like a few weeks ago I found an analog horror series revolving around cosmic horror and had Tower of Babel in it

And that caught me off guard

But then again, if we think about it, depictions of Hell and Heaven have always been obscure and mysterious enough

[twilit heart]

Naah, slap some tentacles on it and some sea and call it cosmic, lal. (Sarcasm included).

[tired sand]

Lmao

Surface level of Cthulhu Mythos

But I guess most of the time we never really leave the surface of this genre

[winter oxide]

doesn't help that higher ranking angel depictions can be classified as eldritch horror

[twilit heart]

Classified by whom? Under which definitions.

[tired sand]

I mean look at the biblical Seraphim. Buddy looks like he wanna shatter your understanding of shit

[twilit heart]

"Indescribable"

[tired sand]

I don't think it's classified but the appearances do the explanation

[tired sand]

Incomprehensible

[winter oxide]

exactly, the further you go the weirder they look

[tired sand]

I guess at some point it'll get "I don't know why you look and do shit like that"

Basically even their goals seem nonsensical

Whatever they may be

[twilit heart]

But they are not weird, tho, are they? It's just that we, as self-centered egocentric creatures cannot fathom anything that's so diametrally different than us in both looks and intentions.

Which is normal, actally, for we are "only human".

[tired sand]

I think the best way to describe anything that causes insanity is something that our brains and so acquired knowledge over our lives cannot categorize

[winter oxide]

so, cosmic horror at its core

[twilit heart]

As my pallid mask once said - you don't wanna know.

Cuz "ignorance is bliss".

[tired sand]

And cosmic horror is named so highkey because of the scale of things

[twilit heart]

Nooo maaan, it's cuz of cthulhu tentacles lololol. Sorry Im biased about this.

[tired sand]

From bliss I remembered that even "Bliss" can be a part of it

For example take a deity and a human and the human is attracted towards the deity, not out of influence of the god but because the human wants to be beside it

Which could make a great part of the whole insanity thing

Not fear but attraction towards something wrong

[winter oxide]

Honestly understandable, shit's extremely common nowadays

[twilit heart]

Ye and none does it any justice. It's somewhat infuriating and even offensive at points. Like can we move past the surface level? For once?

[tired sand]

They be reusing this same shit over and over again rather than thinking about what it is trying to do

[tired sand]

Nah going past the surface level means experimenting with the genre

And people fear doing that

[twilit heart]

Needs understanding the genre, and people fear reading doing that.

[tired sand]

-# no wonder why ppl hate each new Doom entry. They hate change

And funny enough, change is the main cause for making people go insane. It's the change in the system of how things should go according to the laws operating in reality

So yeah, that's what 50% of what cosmic horror is

But folks love reusing tentacles and Cthulhu

[winter oxide]

People fear going past the safe blueprints, which is exactly where its potential actually lies

[twilit heart]

We're kinda thalking of 2 diametrally different things here.
Change is shattering, yes. But its necessary to leave our the comfort zones, in real life as well as in media. That's when the harmony progress is made. However not every change is good. When speaking about games, especially Doom games, I always welcomed the change, until that change changed the very core of why I loved and enjoyed Doom.

As for reusing tentacles "because it's cool", that DOES need to change.

You need to go past the blueprint, but changing the whole core of the thing and making it something else is not a change, it's reshaping. And if something ain't broken...

[tired sand]

I think I should explain a bit here. Yes I do agree that too much change will take away the very essence of the thing but "innovation" should be the welcomed type of change. Doom games don't really straight up change but they innovate themselves which keeps them fresh and bring in new additions to the already existing great formula.

Now as for Cosmic Horror, the term change gets dialed to level 11. In our day to day lives we work, invent and discover but all within the boundaries set by the laws of physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc. When we come across something, either through any of our senses and if we fail to categorize that thing into the things that we know and have known so far, we experience the change

And that certainly goes for anything

Could be an artifact, a being, a god, a demon and so on

Doesn't always have to be tentacles and all

[twilit heart]

Yeah I agree. But that's change towards improvement and that is a good thing. Tho, I have a friend that keeps 'reinventing herself'. As much as her change is good, sometimes she does it from the core and ends up almost a lost puppy. So, when changing it needs to be measured - what makes a thing THE THING and what makes the change a progress. *And in terms of Doom and 'new games' - I just wanna be back at the wheel or at least passenger's seat. Not the backseat of the car. * That is all.

But rn I cba to bother as much cuz, as I said, my 'gaming bone' is somewhat broken, tho I DO very much look forwatd the closed beta of Mortal Shell 2.

[tired sand]

Yup yup

I would recommend The Void and Empty Man

Those are some good cosmic horror movies

[twilit heart]

Oooh, i've seen the Void, I think? But might wanna rewatch it. I avoided Empty Man because description sucks, but if you say it's a good one, I will check it out. 😄

Ooooh that's the one with that skeleton-thing in the cave. I know that thing from 3d modeling references, but didn't bother to check which movie it was. xD

[tired sand]

The Empty Man is ass in terms of storytelling on screen

But the implications make it so much better than it should be

They could've done better but it's still better than what we mostly get

And...no tentacles which is great

But anyways let's see what more we get to see of the Cosmic Realm in the DLC

[twilit heart]

Probably more tentacles and some other of famous lovecraft's 'characters', completelly pulled out of the context. Like we get to spit into the eye of Azathoth or something and then wake him up and kill him, without deleting the universe, because why not? Tho if anything, i'm amazed how TDA went from 'serious' to South Park the moment Slayer rode the Old One through the portal. xD

[tired sand]

Lmao true

[twilit heart]

If I wasn't lazy ass on my vacation, i would use garry's mod and make a clip myself.

[tired sand]

Lol

[twilit heart]

But so far I haven't even moved my ass to the gym because I look outside and see snow and go like - naaaaaah.

[tired sand]

It be cold

[winter oxide]

I hope they'll go even crazier with visuals for cosmic realm in the DLC - make it weirder , more incomprehensible if you will

[tired sand]

Make it have white colour palette

[forest cave]

We don't really know, but humans are capable of standing up to Hell. Doom 3 shows us a trio of men who do a great job fighting demons.

Hell isn't completely infallible. Average humans can fight and kill demons. TDA and Eternal show us that sort of thing. It's just that Hell always has the advantage of numbers.

[native sedge]

The sentinel knights stand up to demons well because they are notably stronger than humans from the get go and are bred for combat from a young age

And the humans and uac do due to weaponry, but hell and it's forces does not get tired and does not stop, so they overwhelm eventuallyv

[forest cave]

Well, the Sentinels are humans.

Same species, just different planets and different points in time.

[native sedge]

They are humanoids yes, but they are still beyond regular humans from earth also

[forest cave]

Slowly adding pictures to more entries of the guide.

[forest cave]

This is an AI overview, so this is a meaningless source. It's just generative AI slop pulling from whatever it finds online to give you what it thinks is the most satisfactory answer.

The Sentinels are referred to as humans on multiple occasions.

[native sedge]

Fair enough man, not worth getting into anything over it

[cerulean vessel]

The are not humans, but resemble humans deeply due to facilitated convergent evolution

They’re nearly identical, but have absolutely zero common ancestry with each other

[forest cave]

They are explicitly referred to as humans and Eternal heavily implies Sentinels are direct ancestors to modern humans.

[cerulean vessel]

I don’t know about that, doesn’t make any sense

[forest cave]

Eternal's Codex tells us the Sentinels colonized Earth 60 million years ago, and we see certain Sentinel artifacts in Earth cities.

Example: the ruined chapel in the Hell on Earth level has a large ancient bell with Sentinel writing enscribed on it.

[cerulean vessel]

What I said could still be true though

And considering we know how humans evolved on Earth, and it was not from Sentinels…

[forest cave]

Could, but it is a stretch. The story is pretty heavily implying the Sentinels came to Earth and became us. 2016 also tied its lore into Doom 3, which also had the Martians (Sentinels) eventually coming to Earth and becoming us.

[forest cave]

This is IRL Earth. It's very likely in Doom's universe humans did not evolve from apes. Much like how in Doom's universe Hell exists and all that. It's an alternate history, which IIRC is already implied by the timeframe they give for Agaddon Hunters being on Earth.

[cerulean vessel]

I think DOOM lore is very subjective and up to interpretation

[native sedge]

Outside of all that though, i think we can agree the sentinels are superior to regular earthlings and earth soldiers though or is that incorrect too lol?

Happy to concede about them being the same race but i still stand on the sentinels being superior physically at the least

[forest cave]

I agree a lot of it is, and I agreed with you before TDA had them called humans.

[forest cave]

Sure, yeah, it's just likely not a biological thing but a cultural and societal thing. Even if Sentinels and modern humans are identical physiologically, the Sentinels live in a culture that heavily emphasizes fighting prowess, combat, and war. Everyone is expected to work as either a soldier, a scientist, or some kind of religious figure.

On Earth it is socially acceptable to work in IT or as a fry cook. On Argent D'Nur if you can't hold your own in a fight, you are essentially useless.

[cerulean vessel]

Maybe when learning English from the Slayer, the closest word to describe Sentinel people was human, so that’s what they say

[wicked turtle]

I think you got the quote wrong on the spider mastermind. You wrote "one become two become legion" while I'm pretty sure it's "two become one become legion".

[forest cave]

I'll double check.

[forest cave]

The FANDOM transcript says "one become two." I'll have to check 2016 itself next week when I'm back home.

[wicked turtle]

I could grab a screenshot for you right now if you want.

[forest cave]

Would be appreciated, thank you.

[wicked turtle]

Okie, give me one second

[forest cave]

@wicked turtle My interpretation was less about the Imperatrix fusing with Olivia and more about how it rules.

The Imperatrix lives in the minds of the demons it orders. Thus, it is a decentralized consciousness. It only died in 2016 because she was stupid and arrogant and took a physical form in front of the guy who got a Masters degree in killing big monsters.

"One become two become legion," i.e. the Imperatrix influences one demon (two), then all of them (legion).

[wicked turtle]

ohhhhh

[raw pine]

@graceful tapir wrong ping so sorry

<@&162901871168585728>

[graceful tapir]

Oh you're good

[wicked turtle]

I thought it would've been "two become one" was yknow Oliva and the spider mastermind, and then the corpse of the spider mastermind becoming the arachnotrons in Eternal was the "become legion" part

[forest cave]

Well, that wasn't necessarily her plan, but something the Cultists did after her death.

[wicked turtle]

I thought it was a prophecy not a plan

[forest cave]

This is totally subjective, but IMO some of these details all tie together to imply that the Spider Mastermind was meant to be the leader of the invasion of Earth. (Beyond the role already fitting her, as the Dark Lord.)

That is why I think the Khan is even involved in Eternal, is because you killed the Dark Lord and the Khan has to play substitute teacher.

[wicked turtle]

Well yeah I knew that it was kinda a repeat of DOOM (1993) and the spider mastermind got fucked over at the 11th hour

[forest cave]

Well sure, but I think it was a prophecy the Slayer fucks over by killing her. The prophecy tying into the Call of Ages mentioned as when the Icon will awake. The invasion of Earth. The invasion happens but the Imperatrix is dethroned. Becoming legion is technically made real with the Arachnotrons.

[wicked turtle]

Exactly

[radiant snow]

Speaking of giving orders; I remember you once mentioned a theory that the Icon of Sin was sending orders to demons throughout the events of DOOM II and its destruction would cease those orders. Is this theory inspired by Quake 4? Because it's veeery close to what happens in that game

[limber geyser]

I like to think the reason the Imperatrix is immaterial throughout most of 2016 is due to being killed in the first game by the Slayer in Episode 3 but that's just headcanon

I think it's possible though since Doom Eternal has you fight a bunch of Ghost Summoners and a resurrected Baphomet/Icon of Sin

She just needed some sort of sacrifice to manifest into the physical world for the same reason the Icon of Sin had to be resurrected through the Betrayer's son is what I was thinking

[forest cave]

I haven't played Quake 4! I base the theory off of it talking and the cybernetic shit.

[radiant snow]

I see I see. You should play it, it's pretty awesome 😌

[wicked turtle]

I don't remember who but I saw somebody prepose a theory the spider masterminds are just older versions of the arachnotrons in The Dark Ages and that the cybernetics is just because they need it to live as they age

[radiant snow]

Interesting...

[limber geyser]

gore warning there's a scene where you get your legs sawed off and pretty much turned into a cyborg like the enemies in the game

[limber geyser]

older Mindweavers? makes sense

[radiant snow]

Mono has played the DOOM games I don't think this warning is super necessary

[limber geyser]

fair yeah

[twilit heart]

Don't use the AI summary, c'mon man. Click on the link.
You wouldn't believe what absurdities and lore developments I got through there. And when I clicked on the given links, it hcs or even fanfics. I reported like 20 of those incidents, and not all were Doom related.

[twilit heart]

I like to think it's David Bowie's Spiders from Mars. >(

[limber geyser]

wait someone used the ai overview?

[lapis saffron]

bro used google ai 😭

[twilit heart]

Hey let's not shame. That wasnt my intention. I was just saying not to trust it because it can get... confused. When using these things be mindful to click on links and check the info. Summaries are cool, but are not to be taken at face value. :3

[native sedge]

To be fair i don't do a lot of google searches, so i just assumed what it said was correct , that is on me

Now i know it is inaccurate i won't go by it again

Ye can put away the pitchforks 😅

[twilit heart]

No pitchforks!

[native sedge]

I know lol i am just messing 😉

[twilit heart]

Tbf it's not always innacurate, but sometimes it just starts tripping. You can always check if it has links provided, it will mark the text it used. Therefore you can report it on thumbsup or down, so it will at least 'learn' to get less confused. ;3

[native sedge]

Thanks i will keep that in mind in the future, appreciate it 😊

[raw pine]

@forest cave https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1256712479510233133/1457538848300073010/formation_of_arc.png?ex=695c5e55&is=695b0cd5&hm=8484e19ad2ea3a50a4920c0a601095b857cdec512b23f1f044815823c2655577&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=3239&height=1823 hi mono,

the codex claims that the ARC was formed in 2150 during the invasion. if you look up in the corner there: you can see the moon, destroyed like it is in eternal. in the modern franchise, is it ever explained to how the moon got shattered and at that state? was it eggman?

[cerulean vessel]

It was the Apophis meteorite

[wintry perch]

i like to think Samurs dumbass misfired the bfg somehow and hit the moon

[twilit heart]

I was thinking the same thing. He did try to be a hero.

[wintry perch]

Samuel trying so hard to look tough in that one arc image with the crucible

bro acting like he isn't constantly fumbling

I wonder what demon encounter left him in such a sorry state in Eternal

i genuinely hope it wasn't some explosion and instead he was the chew toy of a pinky or something

deserves that after 2016

[forest cave]

The moon thing is never explained, no. Great catch, though - I never noticed that!

The moon's destroyed state is never explained, but I always imagined it to be a misfire from the BFG10K or another ARC weapon.

[twilit heart]

Baron Chads playing catch.

[raw pine]

imagine the pr the arc has to do if they were the ones that did it

[twilit heart]

it was probably UAC tho.

[wintry perch]

maybe the demoms tried to establish a super gore nest on the moon and ARC went "A B S O L U T E L Y N O T" and blew it to all hell

then they did it on Earth and ARC was like "we can't do the same thing here"

[lapis saffron]

i kind of just assumed the demons fucked up the moon

[raw pine]

what assholes

[twilit heart]

I mean its very important why and who broke the moon, right? It's very VERY important for Doom Eternal.

[dusky haven]

It’s easy to assume that the demons just opened up a portal to Earth and invaded, but I kinda like the idea that they rocketed down in a meteorite and blasted through the moon before crashing down

[twilit heart]

I was kind of sarcastic because it really doesnt matter. Just as many things we nitpick at.

[cerulean vessel]

It’s just a clear and intentional connection between DOOM and RAGE

[twilit heart]

I wonder tho... Is there a lore reason we can breathe underwater in TDA but not in Eternal?

[wintry perch]

that

the DLC air tank is so stupiiiddd, the fan theory that its a deep pressure resistance suit is better

[twilit heart]

Im more interested in why does he breathes underwater in somewhat medieval armor instead of sinking like an axe.

[wintry perch]

how does he swim in that its super heavy

[twilit heart]

I dunno but I tried to drown him and he wouldn't comply.

[wintry perch]

"not happening" ass

[twilit heart]

That's why we learned all the other ways he can die. ;3

[wintry perch]

air tank may be the only bad part of tag 1 outside of possessed Marauder

[twilit heart]

Whyyy possessed Maras are buddies!

[wintry perch]

cause air tank is STUPID

Irradiated water was way cooler.

"Don't drink the Taras Nabad Water, they put something in it, to make you forget"

[twilit heart]

At this point, I think its the best if he just separated the ocean like Moses and just walked through it.

Nah it was just imps taking a piss in the water system.

[wintry perch]

fair

[limber geyser]

I just- sorry I just hate it when my teachers use it

[limber geyser]

I asked this before

[granite tusk]

Why Hugo said that Whiplash is the first female demon in the frsnchise? If we had vagary and mastermind

[winter oxide]

iirc that's a plot point of scrapped Doom 4

some shit falling on earth and bringing that hell to earth

[twilit heart]

Cuz he praises his horse. His horse is the best horse with extra horse power.

[quaint geyser]

Pretty sure 2016's Spectre codex also mentions smth about them reproducing, implying male and female Spectres exist but HEY LOOK CYBER-CTHULHU

[wintry perch]

I like to call him lobotomy Chutlu

bc the Slayer gave him a lobotomy earlier

[twilit heart]

Imagine having a parasite in your head that just decides to blows your brain out. What a way to go. :/

[granite tusk]

Hugo, said on streams that demons can't reproduce

[limber geyser]

A bit of confusing but Eternal implies Pain Elementals are born from the fiery pits of hell (literally)

So I guess it's possible the other demons do as well

[quaint geyser]

so is this just a lie then?

[granite tusk]

Maybe he doesn't give a shit about that

[quaint geyser]

wouldn't be surprised lol

[granite tusk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve3di8j2E5M
Possibly the most wierdest theory i've heard

[twilit heart]

Wait we were thinking the slayer was inside?

[tired sand]

Conspiracy theories my beloved

[twilit heart]

I thought it was just some regular trash found in sarcophagus(es) of ancient civilizations... Like.. I dunno, new type of germs or virus that wipes the whole room in the manner of hours.

[tired sand]

Kekw

[twilit heart]

Welp that's usually how it works when you open old boxes found in old bigger stone boxes that are considered burial grounds.

[tired sand]

Yeah

[limber geyser]

He doesn't

He said he doesn't believe in author's intent

I do

[granite tusk]

Maybe it's a Martian refrigerator then?

[small herald]

Very weird. Fnaf dream theory levels of depth

The voice connection was a bit silly to me, especially considering the voice also states “witness, the one who will be unleashed on Earth” right at the fight. So it wasn’t the Cyberdemon communicating

[tranquil blade]

Þe

[lapis saffron]

ugh I hate FNaF dream theory

[pallid marsh]

ayo freaky ass demons

[waxen matrix]

FNaF is the most overcomplicated franchise lore wise lol

[limber geyser]

Agreed a straight answer now and then would do wonders

[quaint geyser]

yeah but the fazcow must be milked sooo not happening

[limber geyser]

Um (trying to think of something Doom related)

Probably a dumb idea but I assume it's possible for animals to also get possessed

I ask as I've been debating over whether I should add possessed dogs to my Doom project like the ones in Quake 1

[tired sand]

That would be cool

[limber geyser]

Yeah but like well it's easier to just say that I myself am a dog owner which is why I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea

[dusky zephyr]

It VERY much is, Some view the Slayer as a buffed up human, some view him as a god, The devs could view him however they want too!

Same for other characters like the Khan, Davoth and Ahzrak (My goat)

There's no "Right" or "Correct" way to view the lore but there is a preferred way!

[wintry perch]

Ahzrak is my goat but holy shit is he washed in the most funny ways

hes oddly realistic and sensible, ofc anyone in their right mind would be scared shitless of the Slayer and try to avoid him, something you would have thought the hell priests or Khan Makyr would have picked up on

tf u mean the first encounter the Slayer and Asscrack have is Ahzrak looking at the witch on some "REF DO SOMETHING!!"

look at his face he's absolutely shook

and then there's hellbreakers ending: "our time will come" GET OUT

p u s s y ass. And the final boss is just an extension of this running theme, with asscrack pulling the smartest move possible and trying his best to book it

I just find him so funny yet also cool when he aura farms. Bro standing on the front of the ship. Like, nobody taking a flick bro relax 😭

i also appreciate his restraint when the Slayer is helpless in the cosmic realm, he got two hits in and promptly backed off

it's either bc he's still scared of him (fair) or he has some honor

[wicked turtle]

It’s so funny because the Hell Priests talked back to Doomguy, like they must’ve had a death wish

And the Khan was just fucking stupid

There’s the whole Icon of Sin thing

[winter oxide]

Pretty sure he backed off because killing Slayer wouldn't be a long term solution

His plan failed to account for Slayer's recklessness

[wintry perch]

you missed my point entirely

its not that Ashrak held back from killing him, its the fact he didn't punch him while he was down more than twice, while most other Doom antagonists would have taken the chance to beat the shit out of the Slayer

[wintry perch]

admittedly his plan was kind of stupid bc the Slayer could always just kill himself with his guns and/or bare hands

Im assuming the Slayer didn't do that bc he figured an easier way

[winter oxide]

Ahzrak is a calculative bastard so it makes sense not to waste any more time or effort than needed since his objective was achieved. I'm certain that demons and honor are incompatible.

[wintry perch]

we still don't know what the three old one look alikes were doe

[wintry perch]

yeah fair

[wintry perch]

imagine if Eternal just threw three extra icons of sin in once scene and didn't elaborate on it, that's how the three old ones feel to me

[quartz flame]

i am here to play fall out. where do i go?

[wintry perch]

@forest cave could you explain what tf were the three old one look-a-likes in dark ages keeping the Slayer captive

[quartz flame]

is this the fall out game?

[wicked turtle]

Makes me wonder why Azhrak didn’t take Doomguy’s weapons

[quartz flame]

that's so on point

but i think i am in the wrong chat room

[forest cave]

They're either other Old Ones or, like, the Old One inside multiple vessels or some shit. We don't know.

[small herald]

They aren’t really other Old Ones. They’re the same species, but “The Old One” is the eldest/ most powerful, most likely

The old “One” references the specific entity. The other cosmic beasts are others of the same (name unknown) species

[wintry perch]

they may be the young ones idfk

[tired sand]

According to Hugo, The Old Ones are a species of highly intelligent and very old eldritch beings of the Cosmic Realm. They've been said to be the keepers of vast and ancient knowledge

With "The Old One" being the oldest and most ancient

[quiet marsh]

How many years did the Hell invasion on Earth from Eternal last?

[wicked turtle]

Like 12 or something

[quiet marsh]

I think I found out after going online

Around 12 or 13 years

[small herald]

Depends on what year you think Eternal takes place

[quiet marsh]

Oh I heard

There were errors with when it takes place? (2151 or 2163)

[small herald]

Yes. Trailers and the game itself points to 2151, but the audio logs from Arc complex say 2163

Plus theres no way the invasion would take over a decade imo

[limber geyser]

Agreed I prefer thinking it was a few months ago or maybe a year or 2

Cause I don't think humanity could hold out for that long especially since the other places with humans (ie Argent De Nur) didn't last long either

[forest cave]

Well, according to Eternal's Codex Argent D'Nur held out for many, many years.

[limber geyser]

And then they lost the Slayer thx to the Betrayer

Iirc they fell quickly after that

[forest cave]

Correct.

[small herald]

Yeah. Argent D’Nur had Maykr and sentinel technology, and the Slayer. Earth had nothing more than a high tech military and the crucible

[wintry perch]

and they had.....
Samuel

[granite tusk]

Even Colin's concept doc says similary, but refers them to “The ancient Ones”

[wintry perch]

it just dawned on me how much shorter the extra lore text is in Dark Ages compared to the other games

[ebon finch]

yeah they said that in the promos leading up to release. they said they wanted to do more cutscenes and less codices

[wintry perch]

yeah that's fair

it worked too, if i hadn't read the corrax i would never have even grasped what the hell was going on in Eternal, and even with the text, its just a lot and confusing

[forest cave]

Could you source where he says this? Would be helpful.

[wintry perch]

yeah

[tired sand]

In one of the TDA Slayer's Club Livestreams

[forest cave]

Timestamp?

[tired sand]

I'm trying to find the stream

[limber geyser]

That tracks with Quake

I think

[granite tusk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvYW9wL-YqY&t=6259s

[forest cave]

Thanks.

[granite tusk]

NP

[cerulean vessel]

What if the Deadlands from TerrorMania are just another part of Hell?

[wicked turtle]

<@&162901871168585728>

[ebon finch]

man the mods are so quick

[wicked turtle]

Yeah

[wintry perch]

"moderator is here" - Slayer testaments once you enter hell

i do wonder, who said "He is here" in 2016 cause that went so hard, but i thought the Slayer testaments were sort of magical/cursed versions of voice recordings

[small herald]

Dark Lord. Same guy from Slayer testaments, and the same voice from the Necropolis and Argent D’Nur mission. Lots of speculation tried to pin it to be the Spider Mastermind, but Hugo said it was Davoth. Same VA so it makes sense

[wintry perch]

thats cool

[small herald]

Yeah. I like that they kept that same Demonic Voice from 2016 for Davoth. Makes the story more compelling. Just an awesome voice overall

[granite tusk]

Piotr Michael is the GOAT I hope davoth would back in next prequel games. Or even if Hugo would want:Dark Lord spin-off

[wicked turtle]

Him and Darin De Paul have been carrying modern DOOM in terms of voice acting

[radiant snow]

You say that like if the voiceover performance for the Slayer in 2016 wasn't critically acclaimed

[wicked turtle]

What

[raw pine]

i said this before:

playing as the dark lord during your invasions of the earthly realms would be so cool because 1. more davoth 2. potential types of gameplay never really touched upon in doom (ex. strategy/tactician games where you have to plan out what you want to do before battle, in this case us picking demons to use as allies against like the maykrs or something)

[wicked turtle]

Mechanic for manipulating cultists to open portals for you?

[raw pine]

that too

in any case more davoth would be most useful as ahzrak would put it

[radiant snow]

What what

[wicked turtle]

Oh wait were you talking to somebody else

[radiant snow]

No I was talking to you

[wintry perch]

Eternal was the only game to dabble in "play as not the Slayer" but they unfortunately restricted it to battlemode

[wicked turtle]

What’d you mean then

[radiant snow]

2016 did that too

[wintry perch]

imagine a extra lil campaign where u go back and forth between the playable demons

[radiant snow]

I'm not sure what I have to reiterate, you'll have to tell me specifically what you didn't get

[wintry perch]

"Archville Anecdotes" and "Marauder madness"

[radiant snow]

Entirely possible thanks to SnapMap 🙏

[winter oxide]

um , C&C Renegade?

[granite tusk]

Guys, fun fact: Brad hawkins who voiced Goblin Slayer in eng dub, was motion capture for Doomguy in 2016 and NPCS in Doom 4 1.0

[winter oxide]

It must be fate: a character hyper focused on efficiently exterminating the particular kind of monsters

[winter oxide]

do y'all think Davoth has been to cosmic realm atleast once before?

[wintry perch]

"this place is weird im leaving"

[limber geyser]

I imagine it's where he came into existence

[winter oxide]

certainly a possibility

[granite tusk]

Possibly

[wicked turtle]

His vacation spot

[quiet marsh]

Is it true that the Doom multiverse is mainly comprised of 7 dimensions?

-Hell/Jekkad
-Urdak
-Argent D'Nur
-Earth
-Cosmic Realm
-and two more that we probably don't know, or have been name dropped except I don't know those

[cerulean vessel]

I think the Cosmic Realm is the only real different “dimension”, the rest are just part of the same universe

There’s also the Deadlands, which may be its own dimension or just another part of Jekkad, who knows what it is

[granite tusk]

Do you think all Aggdons extincted, or some of them hides in distant planets that demons can't reach or know?

[dusky haven]

Probably very extinct. It's rare for any one taxon to last more than 1-5 million years

[forest cave]

Some of this is theorizing and IMO likely not correct. Argent D'Nur is a planet, not a dimension, and TDA implies it is in the same universe as Doom Eternal's Earth.

It's very likely there are many realms with many iterations of Earth as well, explaining timeline discrepancies between the classic and modern games.

[quiet marsh]

I see

[forest cave]

But yeah, Hell, Urdak, and the Cosmic Realm are all separate dimensions from the Earthly Realms.

My guide has a graph as to how I think it works. You can pretend the Cosmic Realm is off in the corner.

[quiet marsh]

So the theory is that there are multiple versions of Earth?

And those from the classic and modern trilogies are entirely different?

[forest cave]

Yes, with Doom 3's Earth likely being another separate one.

They all connect to the same Hell, though. It's always the same Hell.

[quiet marsh]

So the Doom mutliverse goes:

-There is only One Hell, One Urdak and One Cosmic Realm
-There are multiple Earths, and Argent D'Nur is in the same space and time with Earth

[forest cave]

That's the idea, yes.

[quiet marsh]

Although is Argent D'Nur in the same universe with Modern Earth or how does it work?

[quaint geyser]

I like to believe 3's Earth and Mars is the same as 2016 and Eternal. Like I know it most likely isn't but I just think it's a neat headcanon.

[raw pine]

my headcanon is hell is above urdak because

1. it was there first

2. jekkad was more of an actual heaven rather than urdak

[small herald]

Well it wasn’t really much of a heaven. They didn’t have everlasting life

[raw pine]

im talking about how it was like there and comparing the art in the codex we have to urdak

urdak is much more robotic and synthetic than jekkad, and imo you can feel that something is terribly wrong and your not supposed to be here through urdak’s architecture and hymns

everlasting life too was the reason why jekkad turned into hell

[small herald]

Urdak looked identical to Jekkad

Both Urdak and Jekkad became technological overtime

[raw pine]

it did? i thought the ingmore sanctum was a remnant of jekkad

which looked a little different

[small herald]

It says it in the book of Seraphs that it was a fragment of Urdak, one of the oldest pieces of it. It’s hard to say if it was TRULY belonged to Urdak or Jekkad because we learned that Jekkad came first. Regardless, this became/ was the Father’s workshop because it was the same world as his

The Holt on Urdak is the oldest location of the dimension. If you play the level, you can see the organic world before it became technologically advanced. The same white structures and black orbs from the Ingmore’s Sanctum make up most of that level

Because it’s the oldest/ most preserved location, that’s basically what it all used to look like

Immora and Urdak look identical (except for color) because they are both those exact same structures but with a layer of technology over it all. Immora and Urdak both have those same designs if you look closely, the black orbs are just replaced with glowing ones

[raw pine]

i feel like i would have remembered this if it wasnt for the fact that ive been in a coma for a day because of how much i slept

did the people of urdak become technological overtime too? or have they always been like that

[small herald]

Honestly it’s hard to say. That’s a great question that nobody considers. Obviously, there’s a natural/ organic nature of the Maykrs under their “armor,” showing they’re not entirely synthetic and robotic. They clearly stand out as a species tho. It makes me wonder about Immora and Jekkad, because you’d expect their denizens to not be so technological, but in Immora, you can see structures depicting a very similar Maykr-esqe robotic species

So why would those Maykr-like statues be there if it’s not their species? Maybe the two dimensions have more in common than most people realize

[granite tusk]

Do you think I the wretch is real or just a myth? A warning if someone in hell wants to help him?

[cerulean vessel]

In space there isn’t actually an up or down, Hell and Urdak are just on opposite sides of the universe

[prisma dew]

Is hell outerversal?

[cerulean vessel]

Not sure of your sources there

[prisma dew]

The art of doom: eternal book

[limber geyser]

I mean if by outerversal you mean there's only one hell all universes share than yes

[cerulean vessel]

That doesn’t make much sense

And DOOM has nothing to do with the multiverse

[raw pine]

there’s some parts where it does

[quaint geyser]

I actually hope, at this point, the wretch is a someone they never reveal because I wouldn't be surprised if I'm disappointed with any kind of reveal for them

[wintry perch]

yeah

its kind of like answering who Gman is, there's too much mystique and buildup to give a satisfactory answer

[limber geyser]

Wdym

There's reference to multiple Earthly Realms

[cerulean vessel]

I think that’s just planets in our solar system like Mars

[wintry perch]

nope

thats multiverse im afraid, multiple Earth's (Doom 1 & 2 Earth, Doom 3 Earth and Eternal Earth)

in the Eternal universe, that's where Argent D'nur exsists

[cerulean vessel]

Well like most things in DOOM it’s up to interpretation

[wintry perch]

this isn't my fan interpretation, this is the most widely accepted explanation and the phrasing "Earthly Realms" is a hint

you can not believe it

[cerulean vessel]

Well that’s stupid and not my version

[wintry perch]

well someone's putting themselves on a pedestal

MY VERSION IS BETTER GRR

be humble

[cerulean vessel]

You literally said your version is the definitive version with little evidence

[wintry perch]

mfw my reading comprehension is garbage.

this isn't my fan interpretation
Apparently you can't read, it's not my version

this is the most widely accepted explanation
Also something you missed, it's not mine, it's an explanation many agree on, including myself

with little evidence
Okay so, here's what's gonna happen, you keep trying to preach your allegedly "better" version and see how many people agree with it. I don't have the time to waste providing evidence that's been told time and time again here and in other places, much less to you

[winter oxide]

they certainly can't be the same due to myriad differences and there would be tons of continuity issues with "they're just other planets in the same universe"

[faint cosmos]

The game dates don’t line up

Technology doesn’t line up

Slayer is on a second earth in eternal

Khan Maykr knows this and tells slayer they are not his people to save ( because it’s a different earth)

Doom 3s earth is also different and different mars

In doom 3 the stone tablets portray doomguy and his battles in hell

[small herald]

Yeah, It’s 100% impossible for it to be the same Earth

[dusky zephyr]

Hugo in the Eternal Streams said they were different earths... People give him lore questions in the heat of gameplay and so he can't properly answer them

[small herald]

Hugo said they were the same Earth in TDA’s streams but, like you said, didn’t properly answer it lmao

Regardless of his input, the games show us they’re separate

[dusky zephyr]

Exactly

[faint cosmos]

Plus, hell, if they were the same earth, after the first invasion there’s nothing to even invade it’s just dust and rubble

[cerulean vessel]

The originals are separate universes in the sense of being not canon to each other. DOOM is a reboot

[faint cosmos]

Doom is a soft reboot

Which was made not a reboot in eternal showing doomguys helmet

And doom. 64 got expanded levels to show its connection to the future games

Also showing doomguy stuck in the arena with his original armor as well

[cerulean vessel]

But if it’s in a separate universe and there’s no multiversal travel, how is it canon at all?

Halo is also in a separate universe

[faint cosmos]

There is multiversal travel. Hell is the same in all of the universes as well as urdak and the chaos realm. But universes are different

Hence multiple earths

[small herald]

Bro you ragebaiting

[cerulean vessel]

But that’s confusing and makes no sense

[faint cosmos]

I personally prefered it when Doom 2016 and doomslayer was its own new thing and not connected

[small herald]

Ye it makes more sense. It’s fun fanservice to connect them but it makes things pretty convoluted

[cerulean vessel]

You can still show the Slayer in armor based on the classic and not have it be directly connected

[faint cosmos]

I prefered it when doomguy seemingly dies at the end of doom 64 because he’s just stuck in hell

[faint cosmos]

Aside from literally everything the games tell us. As well as the official artbook lore and more, Hugo also confirmed all of this as canon

[cerulean vessel]

Well that makes a ton of plot holes I’m sure

You’ve got to trim off things or else it gets too complicated

[faint cosmos]

Well it’s only going to get more complicated from here

[cerulean vessel]

Maybe, unless the new DLC just fills in the gaps

[faint cosmos]

Doom 2016 and eternal already added so much stuff we have not even remotely touched, and then the time skip between 2016 and eternal.

Now we have TDA which takes place an undisclosed eons amount of ti’e before 2016

[cerulean vessel]

And I think maybe the events of original Doom are somewhat canon, as in we can assume that something similar happened in the modern DOOM universe

[small herald]

Doomguy armor he arrived in on Sentinel Prime literally has the wrist scratches from Doom 1’s marine

[cerulean vessel]

I don’t know why people say that, where was the timeline of that ever said and how?

[faint cosmos]

Which part?

[cerulean vessel]

When The Dark Ages takes place

[faint cosmos]

Aside from it being VERY obvious it takes place in the past

Hugo also said it

And its stated in the games lore

[cerulean vessel]

We know exactly when the other two games are, in the 22nd century

[faint cosmos]

Plus like the entire marketing of the game said it’s a deep in the slayers past game set before 2016

[cerulean vessel]

Yes, as in between the 1990s and 2100s

[faint cosmos]

No

[cerulean vessel]

How can it take place before the shotgun was invented?

[faint cosmos]

The other universes have different time lines

And passing of time is different in said universes

Maykrs were there since the very start of creation and their technology is super advanced and so on and so forth

[cerulean vessel]

You see, that explanation has no scientific basis and is far too complicated to understand

[faint cosmos]

Well it’s s good thing this is a video game

[dusky zephyr]

What bob said

[faint cosmos]

Scientific basis doesn’t really explain the Mario style swinging fire chains in eternal or how sentinal ghosts can hand you coins that give you powers but it exists

[cerulean vessel]

DOOM is not fantasy though, it’s based in reality

Science fiction should make sense

[faint cosmos]

Nope

It’s 100% fantasy

[cerulean vessel]

Sometimes there are science fiction things that you don’t understand, but you trust that it makes sense, but that whole thing about what you said is completely unbelievable

[faint cosmos]

My guy you clearly missed the magic powers
Or him being ritual resurrected in TDA
Or the chutlu creatures
And the cosmic realm
And the heaven realm
And the hell realm
And the way he can fall from super high
Or like demonic creatures
Or ammo coming from a chainsaw

[cerulean vessel]

You can explain all of that from undiscovered science, technology, and aliens

[faint cosmos]

Well I’m glad at least that has an explanation then

[cerulean vessel]

But the whole multiverse thing just seems like stretching to try and desperately connect the reboots to the old games for some reason

[faint cosmos]

Well….yes. Because that’s exactly what it is

[dusky zephyr]

Magic and the multiverse is natural too! DND explains it quite well

[cerulean vessel]

We don’t have to accept it if you don’t like it, it’s never explicitly said

[faint cosmos]

It is tho

But also you don’t “have” to accept anything you don’t like, that’s the magic of video games and your own head canon

Like u like the halo show which is an absolute disgrace to the halo franchise and slaughters every aspect of master chiefs character. But that’s ok, because in my headcanon the show doesn’t exist

[cerulean vessel]

Yeah, and mine is that the Slayer was just a buff dude from the 90s that encountered a few demons on Earth, that killed Daisy. Enraged, he followed them back through the portal to Hell and went on a killing spree. Then he somehow ended up in Argent D’Nur and was taken prisoner by the Sentinels.

Wait the Halo show is great on its own

You just don’t like it because it doesn’t match with your vision of the source material

[faint cosmos]

Well that actually does technically so Far follow the exact timeline of the games except for then there being the second earth after he becomes slayer

[faint cosmos]

Doom show where Doomslayer now walks around talking the entire time has a relationship with a demon is half dead the entire show and hates rabbits

[cerulean vessel]

Like I said earlier, Master Chief can talk and occasionally remove his helmet, he is not the Mandalorian

Sorry it didn’t live up to your fan expectations, but it’s objectively a pretty decent series

[winter oxide]

People ALWAYS say that when bringing up 2016 for some reason... Hell being a separate dimension with hell magic n shit is fantasy enough since classic Doom, it's abstract and incomprehensible place.

[faint cosmos]

Objectively great explains the reasons it’s Been canceled makes sense

[cerulean vessel]

Hell is either a planet or just a big space cloud of land mass chunks

[cerulean vessel]

It’s because of fan hate and I guess a lack of viewership, but I liked it and it didn’t get too many bad reviews

[faint cosmos]

Hell is literally a dimension

[cerulean vessel]

I’m saying that if you’re not a big Halo fan, it’s good

[faint cosmos]

Yeah at this point it’s just gotta be bait

[cerulean vessel]

How? I just want to give my opinion on things I like and everybody’s so negative

[wicked turtle]

Ah yes, demons invading Earth. Based in reality.

[faint cosmos]

I’m not a halo fan?

[cerulean vessel]

But you care about how accurately it adapted the source material?

[faint cosmos]

I am not a fan of that “show”

I am however a fan of thst franchise

[cerulean vessel]

But you’re a game fan is what I mean

[faint cosmos]

Franchise. Not just games.

[cerulean vessel]

You’re a big Halo fan, same thing

I wasn’t really that much of a fan, and I found it good enough

[faint cosmos]

I don’t see why this is so hard to understand

[cerulean vessel]

I understand it perfectly

The series is not bad at all, but most fans of the source material don’t like it because it isn’t completely accurate to the games.

[radiant snow]

I mean you could say the same about 2005

[cerulean vessel]

Not really, that move has a far worse audience and critics score than Halo

And I don’t think I’ve ever heard a non DOOM fan say they like it

It’s a poorly made movie that is also disliked by many fans of the source material for its inaccuracies

[radiant snow]

So you can say the same after all :p

[radiant snow]

I can say I watched it with four other people and they all loved it, despite not being DOOM fans

[cerulean vessel]

Maybe they enjoyed laughing at it

And I will admit that the one first person scene at the end is unique

[radiant snow]

I really don't know why you find it so troublesome to realize people like things you don't, and vice versa :p

[cerulean vessel]

I’m sure there are some people that like it, but I’m just saying that a bigger ratio of people watching liked Halo than the Doom movies

That were non fans at least

I think that the consensus is that Doom 2005 is a cheesy weird horror movie, and some people find that entertaining in a goofy way, but nobody thinks it’s a serious and awesome movie or anything

[radiant snow]

proving my point a few minutes after I make it

[wintry perch]

i recommend ignoring them btw, they legitimately just suck to interact with

[cerulean vessel]

No I just have different opinions than you

[radiant snow]

You are agonizingly harsh about them though

[wintry perch]

they tired me out

[radiant snow]

I've had my fair share of EpicSquiddy interactions

[wintry perch]

i tried hearing them out but legitimately I'd rather have peace of mind and ignore them

[cerulean vessel]

Then why are you diving in on this conversation?

[wintry perch]

I've seen this type of behavior in many other servers from other users, i can kind of already see what's going on so i just ignore this type of individual, let them do whatever

ill state my opinion on them sure, but that's as far as I'll go

[cerulean vessel]

I usually try to avoid conversations that you’re a part of now, I recommend you do the same for me

[wintry perch]

https://tenor.com/view/1-ignored-message-talking-to-a-brick-wall-talking-gif-784990164286237893

[radiant snow]

Not enough data

That's very nice

[wintry perch]

Mr.John is a pretty cool individual

[wintry perch]

8/10 interactions

kachow

[twilit heart]

Halo series made a critical mistake tho. Like right from the 2nd episode. It was made for general population with no knowledge of the franchise, without any regards towards Halo fans. They just used the setting and the character to tell their own fanfic, with a narrative that shoots right between the eyes of the head of the title carrier figure (Chief). This crime against Halo franchise, community and humanity if you'd ask me. And I say that as a non-Halo fan. The series, tho, would've been fun, if the main character was anyone BUT Chief.

Doom2005 goes by the same fanfic route, but instead of shooting Doomguy in the head, they replaced "actual demons" with "deemns within human heaaaaaarts". Everythin else is still there, but the "actuality" of demons. That is a crime, but undoubtably incomparable to what Halo series did. It was a re-telling of Doom, through Doom3 setting, with the 'archetype' of a valid backstory to qualify as 'doomguy'. I didn't like the actor's choices tho, but WELL. Was it the best thing every? - certainly not. Was it fun, tho? - yeah!

However, subjectively, you are allowed to like whichever for whichever reason. It might be your guilty pleasure, but objectively speaking it is what it is. Doesnt make you right or wrong, because sujbectivity is, imagine, subjective rofl.

[cerulean vessel]

I think you have to judge film from two different angles, one is how actually entertaining and well made it is, and the other is how it compares to and adapts its source material

[twilit heart]

Which I did. I said they were both fun, altho not directly, so I suppose it missed the mark. Granted its, also, incomparable in some terms, considering one came out in 2005 and the other in 2023/4.

[cerulean vessel]

I mean I had a lot of fun watching cool science fiction battles and the well choreographed fight scenes, especially with the energy sword, but the show isn’t perfect

And I thought the acting was really well done

I have never been a huge Halo fan, but I was loosely familiar with it while watching the series. When I saw the Doom movie, it was when I had just became a DOOM fan after 2018 and really liked the latest game, so my disappointment was immeasurable when it was nothing like the game I had played

And all I ever see online is hate from Halo fans towards the series, and hate from both DOOM fans and non-DOOM fans towards those movies

[twilit heart]

You felt graver disappointment in the Doom movie because it felt personal to you. You just joined freshly after D2016 pumped crack into the series, and... you didn't get what you expected. That's why you feel strongly against it, but gave Halo series a pass despite all, because it didn't 'hurt you'. This is entirely subjective, and that is absolutely normal and not wrong at all! I watched the movie when Doom3 was new. I was disappointed by the lack of actual demons and actor choices, but the atmosphere made sense... because it is Doom3 atmosphere and 'demon' designs were somewhat Doom3. Hell, even Pinky in the wheelchair was fun easter egg, along with scitentist names. It did hit personally, especially with the actors, at the time, but it also felt like a guilty pleasure. Of course, for the new audiences, that movie is either a "lol" or "ew", because the times are different. It's how it is.

[radiant snow]

I'm a new fan and I adored the movie

I think it's still a fun watch

[cerulean vessel]

Yeah standards change for quality, a lot of older movies don’t hold up anymore for various reasons

For me my DOOM movies are Hellboy and the Predator franchise, especially Badlands

[twilit heart]

I got some of my younger colegues into doom... forcefully. Lol. They loved the movie too, but considered it "just fun take".

[twilit heart]

What do you mean doom movieES? There is only one. 😄

[radiant snow]

Like I said earlier I watched it with four people and they all said they unironically enjoyed it, so I scored a win

[cerulean vessel]

I felt the same away about Annihilation that I felt about the first Doom movie

I booted it up thinking maybe this one will be better and actually about DOOM, but nope

[radiant snow]

It tried harder to be DOOM and faceplanted awfully. DOOM 2005 was a loose adaptation and scored imo. Annihilation sucks

[ebon finch]

Doom Annihilation was pretty bad. Bad script mostly, and they kept making ham fisted references

[cerulean vessel]

I thought the demons looked a little cooler in Annihilation, but they didn’t have enough different ones and didn’t include any familiar designs

[ebon finch]

and I just don't think you can make a good Doom 3 adaptation without a bigger budget. The demons looked like ass

[twilit heart]

What's Doom Annihilation what are you talking about, y'all? That doesnt exist. It's the Maykr's magic.

[radiant snow]

The Imps look weird as hell in Annihilation

[cerulean vessel]

Like you can make your own demons but also include more of the ones from the games and make them the focus

[radiant snow]

The fact people were praising the ultra-nightmare line is depressing

[ebon finch]

doin too much

[cerulean vessel]

Also don’t both movies have too much affiliation with real religion? Like DOOM already has its own better mythology that isn’t identical

[radiant snow]

2005 had no real religious motives except for a religious character that only does things related to that like twice

Annihilation straight up had a priest didn't it

[cerulean vessel]

Both are still unnecessary and an indication that the creators didn’t understand DOOM

[ebon finch]

Well hang on on that religion point

DOOM is heavily inspired by like, paradise lost and all the christian lore of Hell. They even call it Hell. Yeah, they do their own thing but it's totally valid to have a christian slant on it (Personally I don't LIKE it, but I understand it)

[radiant snow]

I don't think what 2005 did is on the nose at all, they just have a more varied cast

[wintry perch]

the fps scene in the Doom movie is what is usually referred to as "cinema"

[cerulean vessel]

DOOM took religion and turned it into something cool and unique, tying it back down to religion is a travesty

[wintry perch]

https://tenor.com/view/martin-scorsese-absolute-cinema-absolute-cinema-meme-martin-scorsese-meme-martin-scorsese-absolute-cinema-gif-7188464701423971028

[wintry perch]

funniest part though is that i heard it like, wasn't in the script, just the special effects people did it

[radiant snow]

It doesn't do that though... the demons are not sourced from religion in 2005 or anything like that. Guy just says religious shit twice and dies. Kind of overreacting

[wintry perch]

videogame movies were still in the "p u s s y" era were they had no balls, if we got a Doom movie today, with stuff like Mario and Sonic 3 being so faithful to the source material, who knows...

just do 2016, absolute cinema just already existing

[cerulean vessel]

I just don’t want any religious crap in my movies

[faint cosmos]

So when they add 2 lines of religion its bad
But when they fully change an entire character to be nothing like they should be it’s ok

[cerulean vessel]

That isn’t the only problem with that movie, just one of many

But I don’t want to go into Doom movie criticisms again right now

[ebon finch]

oh but i do

[cerulean vessel]

Well I’m sure you can find my takes from a few days ago somewhere in this server, good luck

[wintry perch]

new Doom movie, named "Doom: Passion of the Christ"

https://tenor.com/view/jesus-skateboarding-tricks-sports-gif-3536895

[radiant snow]

I can understand for Annihilation, I'm religious myself and thought that was on the nose, but for 2005 it's really barely anything, it makes a character unique when otherwise he'd just be another marine

[wintry perch]

crazy duo between the man himself and doomguy in a buddy cop movie

[cerulean vessel]

The games never directly relate to it though, it’s just implied that everything in the DOOM universe is what religion is based on

[radiant snow]

I thought we were criticizing it as a movie and not as an adaptation no?

[winter oxide]

been playing certain parts of 2016 again and these look odd

[cerulean vessel]

The people making the movies clearly just looked at DOOM from a surface level and didn’t get it

[cerulean vessel]

No from both

[wintry perch]

how so?

[radiant snow]

It's a loose adaptation I can handle it having creative liberties as long as the movie itself is good, which I think it is. You're free to disagree and that's totally fine

[vital flicker]

haha big gun goes brrr

[wintry perch]

haha big gun goes brrr

[winter oxide]

one is a maykr rune and other is demon rune but general design is rather similar

[wintry perch]

well the only logical explanation is something that happens in human history, things look similar bc singular origin point before splitting

languages, symbols and many more are similar bc they originate from the same place 👍

makyrs have ancient connections to hell so the same symbol could have started long ago and transformed slightly like u see here

[winter oxide]

that's certainly a possibility

also the prophecy speaking tree in Kadingir Sanctum can be heard even at 100% music

which surprised me how i missed that on all my previous playthroughs

[winter oxide]

actually now that I took a closer look they're kinda inverse of each other

[limber geyser]

Aren't there multiple earths though

[cerulean vessel]

Not in this universe

[limber geyser]

Like there's an earth for Doom 3, and earth for Modern Doom (originally)

[limber geyser]

Exactly

It's a multiverse

[cerulean vessel]

To me they are just disconnected universes, the new games are reboots

[limber geyser]

Doesn't Eternal tie back into the classic games

By saying the Slayer is the marine from the original trilogy

[cerulean vessel]

It’s inspired by the original games, sure

But it also makes it clear that those old games are actually in universe video games in the modern DOOM franchise

Games that were loose retellings of actually history and the Slayer’s past

[radiant snow]

Or... hear me out... easter egg.

[cerulean vessel]

It’s up to your own interpretation

The whole old costume of the Slayer is also an easter egg

[twilit heart]

we can all take from this what we want and how we want it, to hell with lore and canon!
i for instance hereby accept eternal as the last doom game in the series ever made, since mighty doom is no more.

[winter oxide]

I can smell the 2nd nuke drop on this channel

[twilit heart]

whats a nuke drop? i mean besides obvious meaning?

[radiant snow]

In this context it means the channel would be deleted again

[twilit heart]

why? it's a 'lore' channel and ppl are talking about lore? or are just specific ppl allowed to speak here and flood the page with their awesome knowledge?

[lapis saffron]

hi guys

[lapis saffron]

VEGA being arcane was planned at the point of 2016 so that's probablywhy they became Maykr runes in Eternal when they came up with the samur and urdak plotlines

[limber geyser]

I mean tbf I don't think Mighty Doom was canon to begin with

[twilit heart]

canon this canon that
canon here canon there
canon canon everywhere!

[limber geyser]

I know what Carmack said

Story in video games don't matter but Imo it does it's one of the reasons people like Half-Life

[twilit heart]

then you're contradicting yourself

[limber geyser]

Wdym

[twilit heart]

"you dont think MD was canon" but you quote Carmack that "story doesnt matter"

why does it matter then if md was canon or not?

[limber geyser]

Yes I quoted John Carmack doesn't mean I agree with him

[twilit heart]

then be more pecise next time

[limber geyser]

God I'm stupid

[twilit heart]

youre not stupid. i just didnt understand what you meant with that reply, is all. i said what I said because i just've grown tired of reading ppl yapping about 'canon' and 'lore' when it comes to doom. not just here, but online communities globally. as if everything as to be molded and explained because we seem to lack imagination, or what? this is so heartbreaking tbf. So i piss on that, but i piss with a smile. Doom's always been a medium for telling stories, not a history book. :3 ❤️

(this doesnt mean ppl should not have fun speculating, just go around me with 'this is canon and this is not')

[winter oxide]

speculation is like half of the fun of that

[twilit heart]

speculations are good brain exercise. it is, after all, our interpretation of things.

[granite tusk]

Canon cannon

[twilit heart]

boom boom boom

[winter oxide]

this is getting Serious

[wintry perch]

"canon" fans when i shoot a cannonball at them from my cannon

[limber geyser]

Plz don't get this channel removed

[royal marten]

Anyone can talk here about Doom lore and backstory. Just as long as we keep it on topic and leave irrelevant arguments out, like debating the word canon with people at length.

[granite tusk]

Jonn kane in Doom 3 novels, has basiclly same back story like Doomguy in classic Doom.

I also learn, that TDA rocket laucher's lore is a reference to its deveopment.

[twilit heart]

Im so inclined to say something on this but imma keep it civil.

Also didja read D3 novels? I never got my hands on those, digitally or otherwise. Thats an interesting find tho. Maybe they tried to mold all doomguys ever into one.... Which I think is awesome. Really serves towards the "archetype" idea contrary to Slayer as a separated strictly defined character... which sux. I never "met" Kane, tho, other than just knowing his name. I knew his brother tho.

[granite tusk]

I read it on some website a long time ago in another language. IIRC John was also a combat engineer.

[forest cave]

Another look at the guide with pictures. Some entries will have multiple demon renders/sprites for comparison.

Unfortunately this change necessitates that I make each instance of Heading 4 (in this case, "PINKIES") have a page break beforehand so each entry has more space. This has bolstered the page count from 310 to 374.
I can only trim things so much - I'm considering making "individual" versions of the guide for individual sections.

My pipe dream is if I could turn the guide into an actual website with convenient navigation, hyperlinks, etc... but I have no real coding knowledge.

[wintry perch]

im going to learn code soon, so maybe I'll hit u up bc ur work deserves a website

[lapis saffron]

Fire

[ebon finch]

Love that you used the 2016 image

[ebon finch]

you don't even need coding knowledge. Wordpress is very friendly to anyone who has basic computer literacy. I have several wordpresses. Very easy

For your particular use-case, a wiki would probably work best. Honestly a non-fandom DOOM wiki would go pretty hard

[wicked turtle]

There is a non-fandom DOOM wiki (it’s unfortunately very lackluster but maybe if awareness is raised they could get editing help)

[forest cave]

doomwiki.org is great but it's mainly focused on gameplay.

[ebon finch]

is that what @wicked turtle was talking about?

[wicked turtle]

Yeah that’s what I meant

[ebon finch]

There's no reason a dedicated team couldn't add lore to it

[wicked turtle]

Exactly

[ebon finch]

Honestly since it's already established it might be the ideal solution

a living document that can be maintained by a team and not just mono

[forest cave]

Well that's not doomwiki.org's focus, is the thing. It would bloat articles.

[wicked turtle]

The entire point of the wiki is to have information

[radiant snow]

It is mainly a technical wiki

[forest cave]

Sure, but unorganized heaps of information is a separate thing. doomwiki.org is focused on technical, gameplay-related shit - if I added the amount of text I have on Davoth to his page there it would bloat the article immensely and subtract from its readability.

[wicked turtle]

Well it probably wouldn’t be unorganized

[ebon finch]

Wookiepedia has two separate "sections" for Canon (Disney) and EU (Pre-Disney). Could do something similar with Gameplay vs Lore

[twilit heart]

cuz doom = gameplay duh

[forest cave]

As far as doomwiki.org is concerned, sure. It also just gets a lot of the lore details it does have wrong as well.

[lapis saffron]

I think adding lore outside of very defined shit to doomwiki would be a mistake given how much of it is fandom interpretation and subject to change

[twilit heart]

Doom, the king of headcanons. Though we could take this as a fact and just roll with it. Everyone's story is valid, but none of them are. I think that's kinda cool.

[lapis saffron]

I also like the current system where they just compile all lore from every game on one page with no established continuities

Like obviously they mention doom 3 being a reboot and stuff like that but they haven’t committed to which games are connected to which outside the obvious

[forest cave]

This too. My own guide is meant to provide some explanations and connections so you have a complete view of the canon. A wiki should only be presenting hard facts and staying impartial. I am not.

[lapis saffron]

Yeah

[twilit heart]

So connection through headcanons.

[forest cave]

Headcanons, theories, speculation.

[twilit heart]

Hope people actually go on your page, rather than use AI Overview of it tho.

[forest cave]

I hesitate to place any sort of speculation under the term "headcanon" because that term moreso denotes to fun little things someone likes to think because they simply like the idea of it. Some of that is in the guide, but the majority of speculation I put in there isn't there because I like it, but because I believe evidence implies it.

For example Doom 2016's Aranea Imperatrix, being the Dark Lord of the Fourth Age. That's not explicitly stated by Doom 2016, but it's such an obvious and blatant thing that you'd have to be crazy to try and say she isn't the Dark Lord of the Fourth Age. But technically it still isn't explicitly stated, so it's a theory.

Just... a really obviously true theory.

[forest cave]

Anyone going out of their way to trust any sort of AI summary of real writing is someone I don't care to talk to anyway.

The people who are truly passionate about this sort of topic know full well the value of actual human writing/creation and we'll already be on the same page about that sort of thing.

[twilit heart]

I said it more out of the fact that I had that AI Overwiev give me known facts from wiki, as opposed to putting someone's 'headcanon' from some discourse on steam as 'canon'. It did provide the link tho, but I was amazed. And the difference in this search was just formulating the question differently. Now imagine for someone who just reads the first paragraph and goes like - YEAH. You'll have full hands explaining to do.

[forest cave]

But yeah. Here's some images of what I'd consider these different terms to be.

1. THEORY: I present actual evidence to come to a logical conclusion that the Imp and Archvile may be related.
2. HEADCANON: I present the neat little idea the Imperatrix could be an ascended Spiderdemon. A cool idea, but not implied by the story.
3. SPECULATION: I present the possibility the Old One's true name may be Lomarith, based on the temple's name, but do not commit to this being true as I myself am not sure.

[forest cave]

Yeah. Some of this is why I have the guide - I ran into tons of issues like this years ago trying to research Doom shit.

The sad reality of a franchise where most fans don't care about the story, but the writers are trying to be ambitious with it: nobody's there to put together all the info concisely.

[twilit heart]

I mean if anything you'd be a great lawyer, pulling bits and pieces together into a coherent case. xD

I guess someone has to do it tho.

I'd really dig if you'd get into Mortal Shell with this approach tho. Would love to have a comprehensive guide to that pool of black mass. The one I found wasn't all that comprehensive.

[forest cave]

Here we can see the first paragraph of Davoth's doomwiki.org page and it has a lot of things I do not like.

1. Davoth is definitively not the Dark Lord of the Fourth Age, he was the very first Dark Lord which contradicts that name to begin with. I tried proposing an edit to remove this, to no avail.
2. I do not agree with presenting the idea of him being Doom 2016's demonic voice as fact. Hugo said he was, and that is worth mentioning, but he's waffled on choices before and his statements do not definitively represent fact in the canon.

It's not bad and I don't mean to be, well, mean. But this was written by people who have a cursory knowledge of the canon (see the Nameless One mention) but have not necessarily put that much thought into reconciling info. Stuff like this I wanted to amend with my guide.

[forest cave]

Haha I appreciate that. This is the most I've been into a franchise. The only other series I've worked this hard on is FNAF, and it was, uh, kind of regrettable.

My hyperfixations are fickle and Doom's the only thing that consistently keeps my interest forever.

[twilit heart]

Maybe one day. xD

When Doom eats on itself, after it eats all of it's siblings.

[forest cave]

I doubt Doom will lose my interest. Even in a hypothetical world where they sabotaged the series and it died, I'd likely keep playing and talking about the entries that are already out.

[twilit heart]

Well that's lucky. And I really mean it.

[forest cave]

I also am admittedly an optimist when it comes to things - I'll be more likely to give things a try when other people decide they suck. I loved Halloween Ends, people hated that. Loved Stranger Things 5, that was super divisive.

Also loved The Ancient Gods Part 2, which I think is the most widely-maligned mainline thing in the series.

Okay, maybe not "loved." But I liked it.

[twilit heart]

Optimism is nice.

[ebon finch]

doomguy is barbie

[twilit heart]

Now i feel like I wanna feed that into the AI Overview

[ebon finch]

in case anyone forgot that doomguy is barbie

[forest cave]

I mean yeah you're unironically right. Doomguy is just as much an archetype as he is a person.

The Slayer is Doomguy but Doomguy isn't just the Slayer. He's also Flynn Taggart and John Grimm and Joan Dark and John Kane and all that shit.

[twilit heart]

You forgot Blazkowitz.

[ebon finch]

And a member of the supreme court, and "Beach", and an astronaut

[forest cave]

Sure, yeah.

I just see all that as different takes on the same archetype. I don't really take things like the Doom novels as stuff that is meant to hold continuity with the other games. To me Doom Eternal's easter eggs like "Ret-Conned" were presenting a clear vision from the modern games: that everything in the series is Doom and deserves some level of reverence, but only the classic games are actually given continuity that ties to the modern games.

Much like, you know, most of the classic Doom WADs that aren't 1, 2, and 64.

[granite tusk]

What do you think is the pair of blinking eyes, that apears in alpha labs sector 4?

[granite tusk]

Stan Blazkowitz from Doom RPG

[ebon finch]

i think it's lights

they're the same color as the other lights around the room. probably either made that way by accident or to scare the player

[twilit heart]

me, duh
lol, not really, probably just lights or some tease.

[eager drift]

@dusky zephyr mono can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it's ever stated that the UAC modified the Praetor suit, only ran tests on it

[ebon finch]

I just finished replaying doom 16 last night and this is in line with my read of it

[eager drift]

yeah, someone in my comments mentioned that not too long ago and I looked through a handful of praetor/slayer related codex entries and couldn't find anything that states they directly modified the suit

[dusky zephyr]

oh alright, i always assumed due to the tether

Thank you GOAT

[ebon finch]

The Wretch (Mono or someone once pitched the idea of a Hell Knight with glasses and a lab coat, 10/10 idea) made the suit, Slayer wore it for a long time, Vega unlocked the challenge shit (which I consider to be gameplay more than canon tbh), and Hayden added the tether

[eager drift]

in the context of 2016's current story it doesn't make a ton of sense that the slayer can download UAC shit to his suit, but it makes perfect sense in the context of the prior super soldier storyline

[ebon finch]

If the challenge shit was truly in there already, the suit should have been much more upgraded than it was at the start of 16. I guess you could argue damage or whatever but anyway it's all to justify the gameplay loop starting with nothing more than unmodded pistol/shotgun

[eager drift]

I can see the uac having performance bonuses built into their suits lol

[ebon finch]

I can justify that by saying Vega is an AI, so he can just figure out how to interface with Hell technology

[dusky zephyr]

Hopefullly those bonuse include better pay

[ebon finch]

American corporation. So no.

[eager drift]

I suppose we also don't really know if it's hell tech or not

[ebon finch]

We know that the Wretch was a Demon, and that the suit was built after Doomguy's UAC days

[eager drift]

do we know that the wretch is a demon?

[ebon finch]

yes. stand by

Haha welp. It seems I stand corrected

[eager drift]

yeah I didn't think we had confirmation lol

I wish we did

[ebon finch]

Slayer Testament VI sure makes it SOUND like a demon, but it doesn't say 100%

[forest cave]

You are correct. The Codex only states that they tried durability tests on the Praetor Suit and found they couldn't damage it.

[ebon finch]

Mono makes an argument for Valen to be the Wretch but I don't think I buy that. However Wraiths III refers to Valen as the "Wretched Betrayer"... which is interesting.

The Slayers Testaments are from the perspective of Hell and are Hell lore. The Wraiths entries are not necessarily that. Both use the word Wretch or Wretched, but it COULD be different people

[forest cave]

Within the final narrative the Praetor Suit is 100% Sentinel in origin and unmodified by other parties, down to the internal language being Sentinel at first before translating to English.

[ebon finch]

(appears unclear what the Ungmar Codex is)

[forest cave]

Beyond, of course, the Wretch forging it in Hell - which means the Praetor Suit isn't a single suit in a series, but unique and likely forged from other pieces of Sentinel armor.

[forest cave]

The Codex specifically says:

And in his terrible rancor between worlds and through time, the Hell Walker found the wretch who shall not be named, but in his heresy was loyal to his evil cause. The wretch adorned the Doom Slayer in a mighty armor, wrought in the forges of Hell, impenetrable and unyielding.
The Testament essentially tells us the Wretch is someone who betrayed Hell enough that they have been stripped of their name/title, much like Valen to the Sentinels. The term "heresy" there definitely implies a betrayal of Hell's law/culture. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a demon.

I still think there's a chance the Wretch is Valen, even if it would be a lame and boring twist. Hell paradoxically sees those it's tricked into helping them (Olivia, Valen) as both contemptuous and pathetic "infidels" and allies to Hell worthy of some sort of honor.

So it follows that under a certain POV Valen making the Slayer a new suit could be interpreted by Hell text as a betrayal from a former (unwilling) ally.

[ebon finch]

I wonder if a more interesting twist would be if it was like a secret 4th hell priest or something. Someone who was with the other Deags and then turned traitor to Hell

[cerulean vessel]

One of these days we’re going to beat up those poor demon architects and artisans that create all the statues and structures of Hell

[forest cave]

I'd love for it to be a demonic character because they've only ever lightly referenced the fact that demons do have free will and are capable of betraying their masters. The idea of a demon deciding to help the Slayer is very interesting, albeit an idea I'm not sure they're ready to tackle.

[ebon finch]

I'm telling you man. Hell Knight (2016 design) with glasses and a lab coat.

[cerulean vessel]

No eyes and glasses is hilarious

[forest cave]

I posted the concept somewhere but if I were deciding how it'd go I'd make it Belias, the Hell Priest watching Ahzrak in TDA.

I think they could actually write a very believable motivation for him in doing so by tying it to Davoth, I'd love to see that.

[ebon finch]

Oh, I could seriously fucks with that IF there were some other lore changes

[forest cave]

I think there is an argument to make that under a certain demonic viewpoint the Slayer could be considered the true Dark Lord of Hell. I could see Belias coming to this conclusion after being disappointed with Hell's current leadership, and helping the Slayer briefly as a result.

[ebon finch]

I think having multiple parties- Samual Hayden from Earth, the Seraphim from Urdak, Belias from Hell, and Novik from Argent- all as different characters, all believing they can use the Slayer to their own ends, and all but Novik being wrong about it (and novik is still a little bit wrong). From their perspectives, Slayer is an unhinged chaos traitor to everyone, but Slayer's goal is always the simple one: Kill all demons

[granite tusk]

Although Valen= wretch is a good theory, as I recall, it's flawed in one thing. Neither the DE nor TDA entries for him mention he had a hobby of forging.

[forest cave]

Well, if you look in the area he has in Hell in Eternal, you can see a blacksmith's table.

And what is his main weapon but a hammer, a common tool for metal-forgers?

[eager drift]

even outside of the belias theory, I do like the idea that the slayer's perpetual hatred and the fear he instils in all of Hell's legions technically makes him an incredibly solid dark lord candidate

[granite tusk]

Or parhaps Dope fish is the Wretch

[cerulean vessel]

That zombie playing with the toys in the Fortress of Doom was the Wretch

[granite tusk]

Do you think guys that the Intern is still alive after TAG 2?

[twilit heart]

I like to connect Wretch with Quake >.>
Until we see that Wretch is just another generic demon I will continue to believe it's Ranger. Cuz I like it.

[cerulean vessel]

Yes of course

[cerulean vessel]

Very interesting…

[winter oxide]

just one bad conviction away from overthrowing Davoth...

[granite tusk]

But left alone in the ARC Carrier

Poor guy(

[cerulean vessel]

That’s hilarious, I didn’t think about that. He’s just waiting there for the Slayer to return like

[forest cave]

Yeah exactly, I love that idea a lot. From the viewpoint of a demon in Hell who knows what they're talking about, especially one who maybe could've been around long enough to see Davoth's rule, I think they could definitely come to the conclusion that the Slayer's existence is actually a net positive for Hell, as a driving force to motivate them to become stronger. He unites them all against a common boogeyman they all fear and hate.
I can definitely see a moment where the Slayer is close to losing in this DLC and for a character like Belias to realize that if he dies, there will be nothing giving Hell the passion and drive to push themselves further. They'll stagnate and lose the burning ambition that once defined Jekkad.

In that way he's Hell's true Dark Lord - Davoth's reign still persisting in a way not even Davoth understands.

[granite tusk]

Who knows, maybe Hugo read this and rewrites DLC story

[forest cave]

Well, he's seemingly no stranger to story rewrites late in development!

But yeah. I think this ties heavily into Davoth's pre-boss monologue and it is the best way to write a "good demon." I can't see id Software successfully pulling off a demon who betrays Hell and helps the Slayer simply because they decide it's the right thing to do and they don't want to be evil. Especially not in a DLC.

But a demon who thinks Hell's leadership is inadequate, and thus acts out of their belief in what is best for their homeland? I can totally see and believe that.

[ebon finch]

I mean they put the final final final boss in a DLC so I wouldn't put anything past them

[cerulean vessel]

The General Hux, if you will

[forest cave]

Well that's why I don't think they would. I would wager they likely have a couple regrets about not being able to utilize Davoth to his full potential. I would argue a lot of how Ahzrak is written stems from how they wish they could have characterized Davoth, had they had the time and budget.

The Enhanced Ahzrak fight and a lot of his lines and scenes feel a lot like shit I could have seen them doing for Davoth if he'd been the villain of a full game.

[eager drift]

I'm not a very big fan of Belias being the wretch, but I do really like every other aspect of the theory. They needed the Slayer to fuel their progression until they make their deal with Urdak and his rampage starts to threaten their progress

[ebon finch]

A simpler explanation for the same behavior is that they needed the Slayer to free Davoth from Urdak's clutches

[forest cave]

That's a fair point. I like the idea of Belias because of the Codex emphasizing how ancient he is, and I like the idea of him being old enough to remember Davoth and thus be able to look at the Slayer and go "holy shit he looks just like my old boss."

But really you could do this with any character introduced in the DLC if we assume that it'll be about the length of TAG1-2.

[eager drift]

https://tenor.com/view/office-gif-14057355957964410391

[forest cave]

Lmao

[cerulean vessel]

I think Davoth didn’t take the form of the Slayer until The Ancient Gods though

[ebon finch]

I strongly prefer this take but we are in the minority of that opinion my friend

[cerulean vessel]

He just did that because he needed to beat the Slayer, and the only thing that could possibly be a match for the Slayer is the Slayer in a mech suit

The gods can take whatever form they like

[forest cave]

Davoth always looked that way; we see his silhouette in TAG1 and 2's Codex files from when he fought the Father, and it looks the same, down to the meathead block face.

I 100% believe Davoth mimicking Doomguy was the better option and that they should have picked this. But realistically they didn't; the story definitely points to Davoth always having looked that way.

And while I don't take Hugo's words as fact, he has outright said this himself in interviews and that is at least indicative of the creative direction. That is not something I see him changing his mind on.

[cerulean vessel]

We can ignore implications like that if it’s stupid and isn’t 100% confirmed

[forest cave]

I suppose, but it just doesn't feel right to me. I don't want to ignore major parts of the narrative because I don't like them.

Especially if those things could be relevant going forward.

[ebon finch]

oh! oh oh!! me! pick me!! I do! I wanna do exactly that!

[twilit heart]

Yeah and makes Ranger - The Wretch

[cerulean vessel]

Well you are the lore guy, I guess taking in all of it is your job

[forest cave]

If this is my job they aren't paying me nearly enough.

[cerulean vessel]

You should get 2 cents for every lore dump here

[radiant snow]

In the cutscene that reveals this, Doomguy will say "I took your cosmic horror idea. Still bitter, man?" as Bitterman emerges from the shadows

[twilit heart]

I WOULD DIE
and subscribe to next 3 games right from the go.

[cerulean vessel]

Cacodemon hybrid vs. Scrag

[granite tusk]

Or Commander Keen

[twilit heart]

Or a very old very lost Blazko.

[radiant snow]

We are id Software

[ebon finch]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-spartacus-its-me-crowd-stand-up-gif-16262914

[twilit heart]

Romero personally comes and bestows the Praetor upon the Slayer!

[forest cave]

I fucking hate the internet. Unwillingly read this in the same intonation as that stupid fucking Charlie Kirk song.

[radiant snow]

We carry the game

[ebon finch]

...why did you listen to that song, mono?

[granite tusk]

We are number one

[forest cave]

To make fun of it, of course.

[ebon finch]

the only correct answer, you may pass

[forest cave]

No yeah, I did not have nice things to say when he died. It was funny going into work and seeing people go like "oh man... that's terrible..." and I just had to keep my mouth shut like.

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-suspicious-puppet-gif-2729624127692369191

[radiant snow]

If they do another over-the-top id Software crossover game (that isn't QC) I'd honestly love for it to have shitty dialogue like this

[wicked turtle]

I’m so tired of hearing his stupid name

[cerulean vessel]

DOOM Quake

Hell Quake?

[radiant snow]

Quake III Enhanced. Nightdive can cook up some dialogue. Big NuDOOM lore drops within a multiplayer game would definitely make the fans happy!

On a related note, I absolutely hate reading the codexes :p

[forest cave]

2016's are boring. I like reading Eternal's. I like TDA's too.

[radiant snow]

I read through all of TDA's ones because there aren't like a million of them, all written confusingly, with a bazillion characters each

And I also appreciated that they're spoonfeeding me the story with that game

[twilit heart]

Yet they fed you absolutely nothinghahahhaha

[radiant snow]

I enjoyed it! I thought it was a pretty fun adventure, that's all I really expected from DOOM

[twilit heart]

yea i bet

[ebon finch]

Oh i love the 2016 codices. It feels almost like I'm reading scraps of tolkien lore (which makes sense- OG Doom was heavily tolkien inspired)

[forest cave]

Yeah. Kinda sucks it took this long for Doom to realize cutscenes are for the story and the Codex is for background stuff.

2016 thinks the cutscenes are for exposition and the Codex is for background stuff. 1/2.
Eternal thinks the cutscenes are for half the story and the Codex is for the other half of the story. 0/2.
TDA understands the story goes in the cutscenes and the Codex is for background stuff. 2/2.

[cerulean vessel]

Well they wanted the story to be more optional before, but with The Dark Ages they had written an excellent story that was worthy of more well made cutscenes

[ebon finch]

Well they wrote a story, at least... I definitely think TDA is the weakest of the 3

16 still holds up 10 years later because it's damn near perfect. Even though Doomguy is WILDLY overpowered by the time you get all the upgrades

[cerulean vessel]

That’s kind of how all the games are, very well balanced until you’re maxed out and then it’s a little too easy

[ebon finch]

A lone imp with good aim can still take your ass out in '16 even at the end levels, so I'm ok with that

[cerulean vessel]

Maybe on Nightmare

[ebon finch]

Can I demolish a cyber-mancubus in just a few seconds? Absolutely. But those imps are viscous

[ebon finch]

you mean the only difficulty worth playing lmao

[cerulean vessel]

Now that's absurd, it is not enjoyable to play nightmare on your first playthrough for any of the games

[radiant snow]

LiBROrian's just built different

[ebon finch]

I played 16 for the first time on.. what's the second-highest? Hurt Me Plenty? And I regretted it. Eternal and TDA I've only played nightmare

Ultra Violence

[cerulean vessel]

Isn't this difficulty gatekeeping?

[ebon finch]

probably, but I'm BUILT DIFFERENT

I play everything on hard and sometimes I say to myself "hey what if I didn't constantly punish myself for being alive" but that's a silly thought

(Okay, cards on the table: I kinda assumed everyone here did nightmare)

[radiant snow]

On 2016? No way lol

[ebon finch]

2016 nightmare is awesome

Doom 3 nightmare is... not

[radiant snow]

I like them all but I can never actually hope to clear any of them. I beat DOOM 1993 on the scuffed X360 Nightmare but that's it

[ebon finch]

Someday I wanna go back and do '93 nightmare. I've only beaten a couple levels

[radiant snow]

The original normal unglitched Nightmare is an extreme pain in the ass. But the X360 Nightmare I feel is also a pain in the ass while still doable. I didn't get past E4M6 for UDOOM, but getting there was pretty nice

[twilit heart]

I disagree on the story and cutscenes. I never had a more boring experiance than with most of TDA cutscenes. I only smiled when he removed the tether because that's how miserable the whole experience felt. I hated that the cutscenes were done so that they broke the immersion, as I already said, many time. I hated feeling like im watching a movie with intense gameplay sequences in between, and the movie was about some guy that poses as Doomguy. I only felt 'inserted' into the slayer ONCE and that was during the Harbor. The DOOM game lacked loneliness that always followed it, and this immersion/player-slayer connection (and dont argue how he is not a blank slate anymore, thats bs, because they are still going for the mystery and archetype with bits and pieces of backgroudn story, enough to itrigue us, yet not enough to make him a full boringly open character). The story was, as always, all over the place, but this time I HAD to follow it and the boring dialogues between the characters idgaf about or even dislike them with great intensity. And the codex was too short for all the things that actually interested me. And yeah idgaf about Sentinels. Only thing I cared was Valen and Marok and they were cameos. We know who took the spotlight, and it wasn't the slayer.

I know nobody cares but there you go, since we're talking;.

[ebon finch]

I care! And I totally agree. DOOM is not Mortal Kombat (or street fighter?) where there's action beats and then 2 hours of cutscenes. I didn't come here to watch a movie. I came here to BE the movie. RIP AND TEAR not WATCH AND STARE

[twilit heart]

... Well at least one person cares what I say. Thank you. ^^
(that doesnt stop me from yapping btw)

[ebon finch]

I just made up Watch and Stare, I think it's pretty good :p

Semi-related: I fucking love how much of the imagery of Doom 2016 was pulled directly from the 1996 comic

[forest cave]

I think TDA is by far the strongest story of the modern games. Just by virtue of 1) actually caring about telling one, and 2) grasping how to tell it correctly.

Comparing it to like, The New Order or other games and TDA is a very run-of-the-mill story. But by Doom's standards it actually, like, gave a shit about emotional plot beats and character arcs, and actually showing us those things instead of talking about them, in a way the others did not.

[twilit heart]

I glad it managed to showe you anything, but it literally showed me nothing. I was supposed to care about... everything that happened, but it was so well comunicated that i dgaf. The whole plot about, Serrat, nothing was communicated as it was said it would be. It didnt 'show and tell" because it didnt show anything, just gave me info i was supposed to accept at face value. I didnt even care for serrat because there was like a sequence and a half that shows that me, as slayer, are supposed to care about the dragon.

[ebon finch]

Nah man, reading the codex entries about the sentinels in 2016 and then seeing their statues in Hayden's office and then meeting their ghosts definitely gave me genuine emotion

More than either of the other two games tbh

Though, meeting Novik's ghost was pretty tight

[wintry perch]

i think 2016 is the best one and TDA is second best

Eternals story is so doo doo water, i just watch it for the hype moments and aura

[ebon finch]

Eternal's story is strong except for TAG, where it gets a lot weaker

[twilit heart]

Tbf I liked how story was told in 2016, minus unskippable cutscees. Eternal base game was also okay. It went everywhere but was centered about the Doom premise.Felt like a game and not a movie. And felt like a DOOM actually.

[ebon finch]

Yeah the scenes where you were stuck in a room listening to hayden are TRULY painful. Hugo and Marty are both like "ew"

[twilit heart]

Yeah it was fun the 1st time, then I wanted to jump out of the window. It was a good enough 'depth' of the story that is needed in a doom game. Like its DOOM, it doesnt need to be i dunno how deep and meaningful. Sentinels and the whole background story felt like an extra. It was nice.

[wintry perch]

its not that I hate Eternals story, its just that it doesn't work for me as a story, rather a continuous set of excuses to experience the game, while 2016 and TDA tied story and gameplay more

Eternal missions are kind of odd, like I talked about this before

but basically, Eternals missions seem more pointless in the grand scheme of things, mostly due to Vegas portals

[ebon finch]

I would have liked fewer portals yes but they exist to make the Sentinel ship hub area work, and I am ok with that literary conceit

[burnt heron]

Me personally I never had an issue with it

Doom boom slayer has big space technology that can make portals, but going there feels more earned yes

[forest cave]

At some point it feels like it's less that TDA failed to show you these things and more like you just fundamentally did not vibe with TDA's premise or setting to begin with. I don't mean that as a diss - but TDA, for how few sequences involve Serrat, still shows you more of the Slayer's relationship with that dragon than 2016 and Eternal showed us of his relationship with any character - because almost all of it was consigned to the Codex.
We get the Slayer's meeting with Serrat; we get him feeding the dragon and then petting him, which alone shows more depth to his character than like half of 2016's cutscenes combined; we get Serrat loyally rushing in to defend the wounded Slayer from Ahzrak; we get the Slayer's rage at seeing Serrat's death; and we see him silently mourn Serrat after giving Novik the Heart of Argent before being forced to simply walk away.

[twilit heart]

Speaking of which, a while ago I watched a friend play Doom3 for the first time and I realized that up until Eternal, you needed to press a button to end the level. This is so friggin trivial, but it was very iconic. Even the stupid 2005. movie had this at the end of FPS sequence. But not Eternal and not TDA. This is how I figured that, despite loving Eternal as a game, and that I am a sucker for all those nostalgic pokes throught the game it was the first time things went kinda wrong.

[ebon finch]

Yknow one of the things that makes Lord of the Rings so lasting is the thing people mock it for the most: Walking. Doom 16 had transportation issues and Eternal has mission-hub-mission-hub-mission-hub-final missions and I can see how that is less compelling

[wintry perch]

cause its really "videogame logic" that he can't teleport us exactly to where we need to be, while in 2016 its an amazing, half life 1 sense of progression across a gargantuan facility and back and fourth between hell.

TDA has your missions success mean something, like in Seige, ur victory allows for many good things to happen to the Sentinels, in Eternal a stage victory barley affects anyone bc the demons will just keep coming and coming, at best u get a mcguffin or kill x target, but why exactly did i need to slaughter so many demons when Vega could just, portal us in to right where I want to be

[forest cave]

TDA isn't a perfect story or anything, but when it comes to this specific thing, I do not really think it's a failing on TDA's part; you just didn't like what it was trying to do to begin with. I think had the story gone in a different direction you would still feel this way if it were being told the same way and involved the same characters.

[wintry perch]

this

[ebon finch]

Doom 16 has several levels that end by leaving through portals, like Argent Tower and Titan's Realm

[twilit heart]

It was 2 sequences. He pets him and throws him a hand. That means nothing to me if the game is hyped with "show dont tell" and "emphasis on the story and cutscenes" This couldve been done in 2016 too with a, i dunno, cleaning bot.

[twilit heart]

yes but it still had buttons. Like I said, it's a trivial thing. Its not important. But it turn the lightbulbs for me.

[wintry perch]

Eternal has some missions that feel satisfying in the grand scheme of things sure, like Urdak-Final Sin work perfectly fine and feel like a constant increase in tension, manly bc no portals can be used

[wintry perch]

Nekravol confounds me bc like, why did we have to go through all that, just teleport me to the top of the tower or whatever

[twilit heart]

Yeah I aint gonna lie, Novik and Slayer did exchange looks 3 times in the game. And so did the slayer look at dead serrat. But that's not "show dont tell" thats the same as him smiling at Marauder in Eternal. But dont get me wrong I LIKE IT THIS WAY. This is how I wanted my cutscenes to be. I see nothing wrong with them in eternal. It was that everything else in regards to the story and the cutscenes sucked.

[ebon finch]

Wait what? You had to climb the tower

[wintry perch]

the first mission feels almost pointless, you kill the priest at the start and then legitimately don't accomplish anything of significance before dipping, like why didn't they end the level with the priests death? There i would have felt more accomplished

[forest cave]

I listed five sequences; all of these are important to showing the Slayer and Serrat. They are five, technically four, separate scenes that all pertain to the relationship between them. You ignore, for example, the first scene involving Serrat, where we watch two Wintherin approach the Slayer and fight over each other before being scared off by Serrat, who has the Slayer's trust. Just this detail alone gives us very decent info: that the Slayer is a warrior sought by many of the Sentinels' mounts, but only one of them is mighty enough to warrant the Slayer's trust, and that one just so happens to have lots of cybernetic bullshit covering injuries, indicating a history involving that injury.

[burnt heron]

I do feel they could've done a bit more with Serrat, maybe have him injured halfway through the story and the slayer saves him again. Not as huge as their origin story but smt to set up their bond even further so when serrat repays the favor, he dies

[wintry perch]

why did we have to climb it? Why didn't Vega just portal us to the top?

[forest cave]

Like I said, it isn't a bad thing that you didn't vibe with it. But from a story standpoint they absolutely showed more than you are listing here, a lot more; it's just stuff you didn't like.

[ebon finch]

Because the only portal was in the core of mars, in Hebeth

[wintry perch]

Hebeth isn't in Hell

[ebon finch]

haha yes my b

[wintry perch]

and in Exultia Vega just opens up a portal casually

why can't he do that in Nekravol

[ebon finch]

Because Exultia isn't Nekravol

[wintry perch]

when is it

implied that Vega can't open portals anywhere across Nekravol

[twilit heart]

And you keep ignoring what I initially said - i didnt came here to watch the movie and characters talk between them. I came to be the slayer. If the way they told the story was more immersive, I would've probably 'vibe' with it more, regardless if I give a fuck about sentinels serrat or whomever.

[wintry perch]

he literally does it to send us inconveniently far away from the goal

[ebon finch]

yes this is correct. Vega (Hayden at that point) can only open portals to some parts of Hell, not all. And the point of climbing the Nekravol tower was to get you into Urdak

[twilit heart]

I play and love Doom for that immersion... and mass murder, but that never fails, so im not talking about that either.

[wintry perch]

your dodging my question, when does it say that Vega can only open portals in particular parts of hell

[forest cave]

I'm not ignoring that, I'm literally addressing it - the issue isn't with how TDA fucked all this up, it's that TDA is concerned with showing us a story and characters in that story, and you don't like this just by principle. Therefore TDA didn't fail at showing us a story; you just didn't want to be shown a story.

[ebon finch]

In the mission before you go to Nekravol. it's in the dialogue

[wintry perch]

which one?

can u show

[forest cave]

Which, again, is fine, but my point is the entire thing rests on TDA's vision that it shows you more than the past games did in depicting the cast and setting. So if you don't like that, you were never going to like TDA's story regardless of what happened in it.

[twilit heart]

also I didnt IGNORE the cutscenes as they were there in front of me. I couldnt have ignored even if I wanted to, at least not without skipping, which i didnt on the 1st playthrough, because i was wide-eyed and excited... before I wasnt anymore.

[forest cave]

I meant ignore as in the discussion; not that you ignored the cutscenes.

[twilit heart]

I wanted to fking immerse in the slayer, as I always did, and therefore the story, not watch a fking movie man, are you this dense? i know you are defending your masterpiece you spent hours on piecing text together for a 2 second scenes shown in the game, but I played the game expecting a Doom experiance. I got something else.

And it's fine, really, but I am allowed to say what I didnt like about it. You keep insisting on your thing. I'm glad you enjoyed. I didn't I didnt feel any of the thigns tyou kept talking about. I never expected A GRAND DEEP STORY because i never expect a story in doom to begin with. It's a little extra. I LIKE IT THAT WAY. I just didnt expect to have a total anti-doom.

[forest cave]

I said three separate times that this is not intended as an insult, and you are calling me dense. You really could afford to chill out.
What you are saying is what I'm saying.

I wanted to fking immerse in the slayer, as I always did, and therefore the story, not watch a fking movie man, are you this dense?
This message is literally what I'm saying. You are literally agreeing with me. You didn't want to "watch a movie," and TDA's focus was on having more cutscenes. Therefore your issue isn't just with TDA's story but with the framework that the story is built upon.

That is a statement you are agreeing with, and you're assuming I mean it as a dunk on you or a defense of the story, and I'm not. I'm saying a lot of these issues sound like it just wasn't your thing based on those merits, instead of it being an ontological thing they didn't understand about Doom or whatever.

[twilit heart]

I friggin said that! I said I didnt like how it was done/communicated. I kept saying this the whole friggin time!

[forest cave]

Yes. I am aware of this. That's why I was agreeing with you and elaborating on that.

[twilit heart]

Yeaaah, you should've been a lawyer. xD
But anyway, yeah, it wasn't my thing and not everything has to be my thing. Im just butthurt that i was hyped and disappointed. For something that was presented as "show dont tell" i was shown that i didnt like what I got. But yeah, tought luck. (THo i still think it showed nothing and told nothing, despite all, but then again, i guess I was expecting to be shown and told more, given the promotions? maybe that's good, tho, as it was, after all in correspondance to doom-way on how to tell a story.)

But since we were talking - i wanted to give my own entry.

[royal marten]

Can you all just be civil for one conversation?

[twilit heart]

Yea I'm done.

[ebon finch]

Okay so I just went and reviewed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyVGmUuWxnw

1:12:18

Hayden can send you to the Hell City of Nekravol. This is interpretation, but there's a lot of evidence in the game that Vega/Hayden can't send you to like specific coordinates. For example, they can't just send you to the part of the Super Gore Nest where you can just kill it. There were keys and doors and stuff you had to open first.

The REAL reason is that it would be super lame to just teleport you to a different portal

[ebon finch]

Wow I missed alll of this. That was nuts

[radiant snow]

.wad

[cerulean vessel]

You’ve got to get your daily dose of WAD files, Dr. Hayden prescribes you

[wintry perch]

"they can't send specific coordinates" yet they do

hmmm

i guess the Exultia end portal is not where the Slayer is so maybe ur onto something

well regardless, the levels still feel kind of lame sometimes, Exultia is legitimately just "get a couple of mcguffins" and ARC Complex is legitimately just "get the geezer"

[ebon finch]

What do you mean "yet they do"? They don't. They send you to where they are able. It seems like pulling you TO the hub is simple but sending you AWAY from the hub is kind of challenging (Tether system update maybe)

[wintry perch]

Tether yeah i agree

the portals in hell, or places with hell influence seem to be imprecise doe as u said

its just the missions objectives sometimes kinda stink

"get a couple of mcguffins" is way lamer than "kill x target"

[wicked turtle]

If I had to create an explanation I’d say that when VEGA/Doomguy/Samuel/whoever is opening a portal, it’s not just opening a portal anywhere. They have to connect to another portal device. And they’re just connecting to whatever portal device is closest to the place they need to be. Why wouldn’t these devices be shown in game? No clue. But it makes the most sense to me.

[wintry perch]

bc demon slaying isn't really doing much considering just how many demons there are, while in TDA the demons killed actively help the Sentinels

[radiant snow]

VEGA likes watching Doomguy shoot and that is why he places the portals the way he does. Canon?

[wintry perch]

you kill demons in Eternal and its pointless, the horde will just keep coming, in Dark Ages, your killing is worth a damn

[radiant snow]

Nah but seriously I do like Suripy's theory

[forest cave]

I have my own answers to this but I'm busy. Might comment on it later.

[wintry perch]

i think liBROrians explanation worked well enough

[cerulean vessel]

“They will not allow access to the Well without a fight. But I’m sure that’s what you’re looking for isn’t it?”

[ebon finch]

Vega would rip and tear if he had a body

[cerulean vessel]

And talk nicely while doing it, he would be like Pathfinder from Apex Legends

[radiant snow]

VEGA has the only vulgar words in the entire modern trilogy iirc

[cerulean vessel]

Which word?

[radiant snow]

"Holy fucking shit"

[ebon finch]

I believe it was the great S. Hayden who once said "I'm going to shit yourself"

[wicked turtle]

I remember when VEGA said that after Doomguy ||killed Davoth and said “sex is temporary, but DOOM is Eternal”||

[cerulean vessel]

What if Davoth got a master level, and it was a completely different boss fight in an alternate universe where the Father was resurrected instead? I know the Slayer probably wouldn’t fight him in reality, but I’m curious what physical form VEGA would take

[wicked turtle]

VEGA also takes Doomguy’s face lmao

[cerulean vessel]

For some reason he’s just the Kreed Maykr again

[ebon finch]

I just wanted the Davoth fight to be Slayer vs Slayer. I imagined an arena like every other Doom Eternal Arena with like monkey bars and jets and portals and shit where Davoth would chainsaw Sentinels for ammo and you would chainsaw demons, and that both had similar movement mechanics

[cerulean vessel]

I was expecting that too, would’ve been cool if we got that for one of the later phases after the mech was destroyed

[ebon finch]

but SOMEONE worked on Pacific Rim and has to toss mechs into everything...

(Hot take: Mechs aren't really that interesting)

[dusky zephyr]

The Atlan's are cool asf

[cerulean vessel]

The mech was awesome too, but it would have been cool to have both

#the-dark-ages message

The only one strong enough to match the Slayer is the Slayer in a mech

Other than Olivia and the Kahn which are both pretty arrogant, I love how every other DOOM villain is so concerned and terrified of the DOOM Slayer

And Ahzrak saying they need something more permanent than death to deal with him

[dusky zephyr]

That shit was so cool

i loved the cutscene
The Dragon intro
Atlan Into
Lauching the Slayer
Ahzrak Intro
Siege

all aura

[radiant snow]

I also like the original games having villains that are threatening. DE kinda did that again with the Icon

[cerulean vessel]

That’s the thing though, these DOOM villains are threatening, yet the Slayer isn’t threatened much by them and they are threatened by the Slayer

[ebon finch]

(Again, Nightmare difficulty) The demons in 16 feel very threatening. Even the fodder ones. It's great. They feel bigger to me than any other game, even though it's all roughly the same scale

[cerulean vessel]

I do miss the reverse glory kills where the demons kill you

[ebon finch]

Pierce being a villain who was physically weak and unthreatening was nice

[radiant snow]

Sure, but I mean like villains that are larger threats than the protagonist is to them

[ebon finch]

That and the glory kills where like, if you're next to a wall you slam the demon into the wall. Eternal didn't feel quite so polished with little features like that

[cerulean vessel]

I mean Davoth and Enhanced Ahzrak are technically more powerful than the Slayer

[ebon finch]

I HATE all the challenges where it's like "do a left-side glory kill on the doom hunter" or "do a DFA on a baron"

[cerulean vessel]

But power doesn’t matter as much when compared to the will for vengeance

[radiant snow]

I really don't know how to get this across in text, but the Maledict feels more of a threat to me than Davoth did. Probably because the Maledict's opponent is the RoEguy and Davoth's is the Slayer

[cerulean vessel]

Looking at the maledict for the first time, making me realize that a lot of the Doom 3 designs were just throwing everything at the wall to try and be cool, reminds me of stuff I used to draw as a kid

[ebon finch]

essence of DOOM

[burnt heron]

Idk they look pretty natural within the setting

[radiant snow]

They are cool tho

[burnt heron]

All alien, hint of demonic

Except maledict he's a lil more demonic

[cerulean vessel]

Not really, the modern DOOM enemies look a lot more biologically realistic and smartly creative

[burnt heron]

Can you name an enemy out of place in Doom 3?

[cerulean vessel]

Like one thing I love is how demons like the pain elemental and cacodemon have mandibles made up of their appendages like tentacles/hands with teeth, that’s just awesome

[dusky zephyr]

Mancubus?

[cerulean vessel]

But a cool yet somewhat generic demon design with a weird human face coming out of its mouth is just try hard

[burnt heron]

He is weird

[radiant snow]

It is cool in the end

[burnt heron]

I see him as very alien

[ebon finch]

Mancubus in 3 is the same as mancubus in 2, honestly

[burnt heron]

Very pale

[dusky zephyr]

Not even close

[cerulean vessel]

But some of the Doom 3 designs had a lot of influence on modern demons, so it’s not all bad

[ebon finch]

the face tentacles are longer, sure

[dusky zephyr]

Mancbus in TDA and Eternal are closer to DOOM II

[cerulean vessel]

I love my Oculus Rift cybermancubus

[radiant snow]

I can't think of a single bad DOOM 3 design personally

[dusky zephyr]

The Eternal one is basically 1-1

[ebon finch]

fire

[cerulean vessel]

Anyone remember the weird eyeless imps from early DOOM trailers?

[ebon finch]

Taking the VR helmet off the cybermanc is the second worst design choice in D:E

(Hell Knight eyes)

[radiant snow]

Cleaning up the Revenant is #1 imo

I can look past everything else. But wiping the tomato sauce is criminal

[wicked turtle]

I honestly had no issue with the Hell knights having eyes

[cerulean vessel]

Honestly Eternal’s designs for returning demons weren’t that great for the most part

[ebon finch]

Doom 3's hell knight was cool, and 16 made that design perfect

Eternal was a real downgrade. It's not scary anymore. It's just a beast to kill

[cerulean vessel]

I guess the eyeless Hell knights are just a subspecies, because the ones with eyes came before and after

[radiant snow]

D3's HK was perfect imo

2016's one was cool but too smooth. 3's one is defined, for lack of a better word

[radiant snow]

I appreciated all the throwbacks

[cerulean vessel]

Actually I think the pinky design for Doom 3 does suck, looks like a deformed blob

[ebon finch]

I do like that the gladiator is clearly a riff on the OG Knight from D2

[ebon finch]

I might agree with you

[radiant snow]

What the heck

Librotherian do not do this to me

[forest cave]

I know the topic's moved on but I was interested so I'm gonna comment anyway.

On the teleporter discrepancy: Before Cultist Base, VEGA essentially says he can't get a lock on the Priest's exact coordinates, so he sends the Slayer somewhere nearby. That tells us he is, at least, capable of teleporting you to exact coordinates but can't due to routine interference.
My belief is that the teleporter within the Fortress of Doom is very powerful, but it can only send you to places the teleporter has already accessed before or places close to them if it wants to be very precise. In regards to Earth, VEGA couldn't get a lock on it because while he's teleported to Earth, he hasn't teleported to the Arctic before.

We can surmise, in regards to Sentinel Prime, that either the teleporter doesn't "know" the area well enough to send him there, or he's outright blocked from it, and the closest place on the planet the Slayer can warp to is still too far away, so they use Mars Core instead.

[ebon finch]

i am my own mind, i align with no one

The D3 pinky... kinda sucks lmao

[forest cave]

Something to note is this is specifically Sentinel tech. Not even the UAC has fully mastered spontaneously teleporting someone somewhere on a whim. In 2016 Hayden could only pull the Slayer back, not send him somewhere.
Even in TAG, where you're teleporting places with the ARC Carrier, they are using a Sentinel teleporter rather than ARC/UAC tech.

[ebon finch]

I don't hate Eternal Pinky but the 16 pinky has this... idk visceral and violent quality to it

[cerulean vessel]

And while a lot of the Doom 3 designs are fine, they feel like generic demons that could be from anything, they don’t really have that creative DOOM spark. Like a brain with spider legs and a turret, or a cyborg lizard with a chainsaw spear

[forest cave]

Eternal Pinky feels like it's made of Play-Doh by comparison. Can't pinpoint why.