the-codex

[forest cave]

I want to add that IMO games are a beautiful way to tell a story and I do not want them to neuter their ability to tell Doom's story in an attempt to chase how the originals felt.

TDA isn't necessarily a narrative masterpiece, but the parts of its story that hit me were because it was a game, because the Slayer is a character we directly control and wonder about. It doesn't work the same as a movie.

The story and gameplay supplement each other. I want both to have impact, weight, and meaning in the eyes of the player. TDA nails that.

[twilit heart]

Never felt more disassociated from the slayer and doom overall than in the way TDA "story" was presented. But what do I know. I guess.

But its good thay at least pp enjoyed it.

[forest cave]

I suppose it is a subjective thing. In my eyes TDA upgraded the Slayer from a relatively alright silent protagonist to the most captivating character in the actual series itself.

I suppose he already was... but before TDA I felt like it was more because someone has to be, and the bar's pretty low. Now I actually feel this way emphatically.

[twilit heart]

By breaking the immersion that existed for 30 years. If you wanted such story you couldve played Mass Effect like games.

[twilit heart]

Well you felt right cuz that os the thing. And the bar didnt feel any higher in TDA.

[wicked turtle]

If I’m going to be honest, as much as I love games like Half-Life and DOOM, their idea of immersion is archaic and out of date.

[twilit heart]

Then why play Doom!? Play an rpg lol.

[wicked turtle]

To give protagonists no defining features and no dialogue does not work as well as it did back in the 90’s

[forest cave]

I don't really feel that immersion is more important than storytelling. 2016 is very immersive, but its story is overall pretty weak, and it fails to properly utilize the potential of characters like Olivia Pierce and VEGA because it's too scared to step outside of the Slayer's view for a minute.
IMO immersion was never the main point of Doom. It was action, horror, and an expression of nerd culture.

[twilit heart]

I dont wanna play doom where doomguy is 3rd party character and im just riding on the back seat. If the game is going there I aint being a part of that downgrade.

[burnt heron]

(You don't need dialogue for doomguy, he works pretty well without it)

[wicked turtle]

I will say that DOOM does manage to make that work

[twilit heart]

This what samir says too. His actions speak. Which is actually shown.

[wicked turtle]

But I’m playing through Half-Life 2, and Gordon saying and doing nothing is rather awkward

[forest cave]

We definitely do not need dialogue for Doomguy. But we do need characterization and an actual narrative. Self-insert characters are lame and they're consistently the weakest parts of actual stories. Doomguy was fine as a self-insert in the 90s, but we can have him be an interesting character of his own now.

[twilit heart]

Well like i saod to each their own. If i dont feel the immersion no amoubt of demob blood will make it doom to me.

[burnt heron]

Ahhh self inserts ahhh

Last story I really liked had that, not good

Just a me thing

[twilit heart]

Hes actually pretty much defined. You just hace to pull your nose out of the codex and explore other doom media, regardless if its canon or not.

[forest cave]

I do not really think that is how it works. Characterization for John Grimm in the 2005 movie is not characterization for the Slayer. They are two different characters that just happen to be derived from the same archetype.

[twilit heart]

Besides... you can have both as tou had in 2016 and Eternal. Remember family photo?

[royal marten]

I know this is your passion m0no, and I love hearing your takes and respect you. Just know that your view and enthusiasm for storytelling with Doom isn't going to be across the board. I do appreciate that you preface it with in your opinion though. As I stated above, we can all enjoy it how we see fit and interpret the games differently. This understanding should go towards all of us, myself included.

[twilit heart]

Naw mono is always right.

[burnt heron]

I think he knows that

[twilit heart]

Wasnt refering to that movie.

[forest cave]

I list it as an example.

[twilit heart]

Comic book is "canon" but you wont look for characterisation there cuz its omg so silly...

[forest cave]

Same goes for the novels. The Doom novels are not canon - they seem very nice, and I'm sure the character of Flynn Taggart is awesome in those. But the Slayer is explicitly a separate character from AU takes on Doomguy - he exists in a continuity that consists of the mainline games. If the character isn't the Slayer then their characterization, nice as it is, isn't all too relevant to him in my eyes.

[forest cave]

I do not particularly regard the comic book as canon. It's a bunch of funny panels of Doomguy shooting stuff and ranting about global warming and big guts. It's funny, but I don't really think it's meant to be taken seriously.

[twilit heart]

Neither was rest of DOOM man.

[forest cave]

Obviously, yeah, this is not something I claim to be an objective take. I'm just passionate about the series and wish to provide my own opinion on the subject.

[burnt heron]

But he's a fellow enviromentalist!!!!

[twilit heart]

The devs themselces say rule of cool.

[burnt heron]

Gotta be canon

[royal marten]

for sure

[twilit heart]

Oh and others who disgree are not?

[forest cave]

Rule of cool isn't incompatible with real storytelling, though. The original games do tell a story, and Carmack was clear that this was mainly a limitation of technology more than anything. The comic book is like that because it's funny.

[forest cave]

I did not say that, Slade.

[burnt heron]

Well no you're passionate and providing your own opinion

[royal marten]

My personal interest is in how the gameplay was and is developed. Re-listened to Romero's book and having grown up when it was being created, and the birth of the internet...I just find it so fascinating.

[burnt heron]

General statement

Kar-mak

Sounds like sentinel language

[forest cave]

I haven't read Romero's book yet, but I have read Masters of DOOM and it is a captivating read. I know I am mainly known as the lore guy or whatever but I sincerely adore the story of how the original games were made, and part of my own passion for Doom comes from how legendary the games are as games.

[wicked turtle]

I thought it was just because story in video games was not standard at the time

[forest cave]

Gameplay and level design are just as important as any other form of art. As far as I'm concerned, Super Mario Bros.' 1-1 and Doom (1993)'s E1M1 deserve to be revered as works of art the same as an old, beautifully-crafted painting.

[royal marten]

I was just saying to a friend today in call that it's really special to see Doom evolve over the years. Where it started all the way to TDA now.

[wicked turtle]

Yknow the whole “story in video games is like story in [naughty word censored because it got blocked last time I tried]”

[royal marten]

I have Masters of Doom on Audible and have yet to finish it. If you do decide you'd like to check out Doom Guy by Romero, and want to hear him tell it, that's on Audible as well.

[royal marten]

I think we all know atp

[burnt heron]

When did he say that quote

[twilit heart]

Anyway. IMO, TDA was so awesome to me, and im so happy i got the digital deluxe because it clearly is leading to be something that will make me drop out doom after many years of "service"out of sheer disappointment. Ill stick around to see the DLC, tho.

[forest cave]

Both of these are true. Storytelling in videogames wasn't regarded as super important because being more ambitious meant sacrificing the gameplay. They were already struggling to shove Doom into computers not meant to run games; then Tom Hall comes in with a bible explaining 6 episodes, half a dozen playable characters, cutscenes, NPCs... yeah, no, that shit was not gonna fly in 1993 when they needed an ambitious game to run fast and reliably.

[wicked turtle]

I paraphrased but I don’t know exactly when he said it

[burnt heron]

Thira jumpscare

[twilit heart]

Lol.

[wicked turtle]

Your loss

[twilit heart]

And company money.

[wicked turtle]

You are one dude

[burnt heron]

Me when the dlc is more immersive:

[royal marten]

h8 this one so much lolll

[twilit heart]

Om not actually.

[forest cave]

If you want to see when the industry shifted away from this mindset, then look to Half-Life. HL was the game to show the gaming industry at large, especially PC gaming, that we could have an in-depth and somewhat intricate narrative in the game without having to make the game an RPG. We could still have an FPS that not only has a big story, but the story is woven into the gameplay.

[wicked turtle]

They don’t care about one dude

[burnt heron]

Fits me so well tho

[twilit heart]

One by one...

[forest cave]

People forget how influential it was that you could play as Gordon Freeman and see the story unfold around you, dynamically, with actual moving parts, all while still retaining control of him.

[burnt heron]

Slade is many

[twilit heart]

Dont underestimate power of fangirls

Especially bitter ones.

[forest cave]

And I'm sorry but this style is absolutely an improvement. Even Carmack understood that. Doom 3 came out and had miles of text and cutscenes because he knew that it's not easy to be immersed if there's no world, setting, or universe to be immersed in.

[wicked turtle]

Mitosis

[twilit heart]

More loke spores.

[winter oxide]

personally, i have been enjoying the modern Doom games, with each entry i ended up liking more than previous. There's a certain level of consistency i don't really see in the games nowadays

[twilit heart]

Im not saying this aint true. For now.

[forest cave]

IMO the modern Doom trilogy is incredible and consistent in how incredible it is. Three different games that are all masterpieces while all playing very differently from each other, building off each other, developing the Doom universe into something bigger and better.

My least favorite modern Doom game is 2016. And even then I have to acknowledge it's nothing less than, like, a 9/10.

[twilit heart]

Does it work when you pull dg out of it tho? Will it be as interesting? As immersive?

[royal marten]

you were about to upset me until you added the last bit lmao

[wicked turtle]

Well it definitely wouldn’t work because he’s the player character

[twilit heart]

Exactly!

[forest cave]

They haven't done this yet, but for the record, I think Doomguy is an archetype that anyone can be. I do not think the protagonist of Doom always has to be the same man that fought demons on Phobos in Doom 1993.

I do want Doom to experiment with other protagonists, personally, especially for side entries that are experimenting with different gameplay.

[wicked turtle]

Well it doesn’t support or disprove your point, it’s just that the game would be literally unplayable without the player character

[forest cave]

For example I'd love another Doom 3-styled game with a more human and fallible protagonist. Bonus: someone who isn't even combat trained, who develops into a fucking badass as the game goes on - where the game feels like it's serious horror at the beginning and by the end you feel almost somewhat like the Slayer.

[burnt heron]

Turn based thira game boiii(jokes)

[twilit heart]

No no, let us have Phobos and Crahs now, come on, its a big expanded universe! It can work right? Or i dunno? A game with Thira as a protag? How well would that sell at launch? What would be the playerbase?

[burnt heron]

Prob not a lot

[twilit heart]

Duh!

[burnt heron]

They didn't do quake yet

So ye that other thing is unlikely

[twilit heart]

They wont. You have cosmic realm and thira is Ranger cuz she can open portals

[forest cave]

I don't think a game with Thira as the protagonist would work for the same reason I don't think a game with Valen or Samuel Hayden would work. Because they are developed to be side characters and don't have the recognizability of Doomguy. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try something.

Personally I would be fine with a female protagonist, for example. I really do not give a shit. As long as the gameplay is fun and the story is decent I'm fine.

[twilit heart]

But Mono! Its a big expanded world how come? Does the slaywr have to be in the middle of everything?

Cant you... immrse with the world and juat play it?

I wouldnt mind if it was Crash on her original form

[wicked turtle]

Weren’t they gonna have a female Slayer during Eternal

[twilit heart]

But im never getting thay cuz that wont swll.

[twilit heart]

They said they were thinking about it. And said rhwy wanted to make her a sentine.

[wintry perch]

no no you see if its a women people will hate it

especially Doom fans since toxic masculinity appeals to many Doom fans

[twilit heart]

Not necessairly. Im a girl i like bloodrayne. XD

[wintry perch]

so sigma or something like that

[twilit heart]

I also like toxic masculinity in my games tho. Manly men are aweosme.

[royal marten]

what even is a manly man

[wintry perch]

i only like them if they are funny

[twilit heart]

I dunno

[wintry perch]

Vega

[twilit heart]

Lol

[forest cave]

I mean, no. I'm not saying he should be. I'm saying there's a stigma right now saying he should be, and id Software will have trouble breaking it. When they have another Doom game with a separate protagonist, especially if it's a woman, or a Sentinel, or anyone who isn't a roided-out marine man, they'll likely have to do it in a side game because unfortunately people will be grossed out of it by that metric alone.

[twilit heart]

Because doom has for too long been doomGUY. And thay was cemented with the success of 2016.

[wicked turtle]

The steroids were from the Divinity Machine. That’s what Davoth’s life sphere really is.

[forest cave]

Part of this is also that most people would not like Doom having a non-silent protagonist, and that's something even I think would be too far to have. So a new character would have to be silent.

[wicked turtle]

The Maykrs don’t want you to know this.

[twilit heart]

The only way out of it is to wait years.

[wintry perch]

clearly what we need is a Kreed Makr game where you roll around like Sonic and gain momentum from going downhill

[twilit heart]

Or make, i dunno, amazingly likable secondary character.

[forest cave]

I do not particularly feel that Doomguy being a man is a major part of Doom's success. It was just expected at the time. I think if Doom 2016 were the exact same but a woman were in the suit, it still would have been wildly successful.

[twilit heart]

It worked for dead space.

[twilit heart]

That is not what i said.

[forest cave]

I'm not saying you did.

[winter oxide]

That will stop being true if id will make their own Wolfenstein Youngblood

[wintry perch]

i have to disagree, many beloved male characters would have way less popularity if they were female. Imagine if Vegeta was a girl, 70% of his fans would call them annoying

[twilit heart]

Well it sounded liek that.

[twilit heart]

Thats another fear unlocked man ty so much. This is a joke btw.

[royal marten]

[wintry perch]

for some reason girl™ is enough to make people dislike a character, they just spout bs to hide the fact that they would like the characters if they were a man

[forest cave]

Oh it definitely would've been less popular. I still think it would have been very popular though, and the things making it less popular would essentially just be incels allergic to women in videogames.

[wicked turtle]

Well that’s the whole Breaking Bad thing where certain fans call Skyler annoying. And that’s because they’re misogynist.

[wintry perch]

yeah Skyler is a good example, she legitimately does next to nothing wrong and is a victim yet shes treated like the spawn of Satan cause woman

[twilit heart]

The mod is like... exploding rn. ❤️

[royal marten]

This conversation is getting weird

[wintry perch]

why

[wicked turtle]

Fair enough

[forest cave]

She definitely does a lot wrong. But she does a lot wrong like how Walter White does a lot wrong.

But, see, when Walter does it it's captivating and badass. When Skyler does it she's annoying.

[wintry perch]

double standards ❤️

[royal marten]

Because. The whole man vs woman bullshit video game debate is useless and not productive to the server and just adds to the problem with no solution.

[wintry perch]

what

[royal marten]

Said what I said.

[wintry perch]

this isnt even a men vs woman argument. Im merely stating some people have odd standards for women characters compared to male characters

[forest cave]

I do want to say my intent was mainly, in tying back to Doom, to say that Doom is gonna have trouble implementing a protagonist who isn't the Slayer. I love Doom but there are some seriously annoying people in its fanbase, who are loud and will revile a protagonist who isn't the same color and sex that Doomguy is. Or a protagonist who talks.

[faint cosmos]

Kinda reminds me of how no one knew samus was a girl until you beat the game under a certain time frame and see her in the ending cutscene without her armor.

Doomslayer doesn’t have to be a guy. It just needs a character that fits great.

[forest cave]

I don't mean to start a whole culture war thing. I just mean to say that, in regards to Doom's future.

[faint cosmos]

Heck that woman we see in the dark ages who has the cool wraith powers would be a sick protagonist

[wintry perch]

I like thira

[forest cave]

If Thira got more characterization and meat to work with I could see it. And the cool Wraith tentacle shit is awesome and feels like it could be great as a gameplay mechanic.

[wintry perch]

me neither, its not a culture war thing it's just pointing out a existing bias

some people have

it was relevant to the convo

[wintry perch]

yeah she was, like the other characters in Dark Ages, pretty flat, but they fullfilled their purpose

[forest cave]

And also yes Samus is a fucking awesome protagonist, just wanna say that. Metroid rocks and Samus is great.

[wintry perch]

arguably Asscrack has the most "depth" in the sense that he seems multi faceted

[wicked turtle]

Still love the moniker “Asscrack”

[wintry perch]

when the Slayer is KO'd by the Wraith Asscrack barely hits him, it really does seem like a "I won't hit a man while hes down". And it really is a unique perspective to have a main antagonist that legitimately fears the protagonist so openly

[forest cave]

Ahzrak is one of the best characters in the series.

[faint cosmos]

Now something that I found both dumb. And yet super fun. Was when Doomslayer died and we see his whole zombie form and him being resurrected

[wintry perch]

the lines "avoid the Slayer" and "We will need something more permanent" (in response to the request to kill the Slayer) really say alot

[forest cave]

Very effective villain IMO.

[wintry perch]

i like Asscrack

[forest cave]

I sort of love this. I don't like how Hugo explains it. But I love it by itself.

[wintry perch]

probably the only Doom villan i actually like, Khan Makyr just kinda, hides behind the lines a bit too much and isn't even the final boss

[faint cosmos]

I also say dumb very loosely. I don’t actually find it dumb. More so it came from what I initially thought was a figurative sense “he he too angry to die”

But in actually he really did die but gets resurrected

I also love how the skin in eternal was a foreshadowing

[burnt heron]

His super shotgun also died with him

R.i.p goat

[faint cosmos]

I wonder if the. Ritual gets further explained on how it works or if it’s in game mentioned and I missed it

Say no one remembers how to do the ritual, does he then stay permadead?

The ritual aspect also actually funny enough would explain the sarcophagus in 2016. If they can’t kill him trapping him means he can’t get resurrected.

[wintry perch]

Ahzrak is odd too bc he seems oddly realistic in the face of a character as the Slayer, everything he does seems logical to the viewer bc well, we know the Slayer. Notice how he really doesn't want to fight the Slayer (Smart move) until he has the Heart of Argent and after that its clear hes running away, not actually foolish enough to try to fight the Slayer but he basically ran out of options

[forest cave]

Here's what I think: The Slayer revives in Hell because he's just like that thanks to Davoth. He escapes Hell on his own by commandeering the barge.

But that big forest place, concept art calls it Limbo. IMO, if Valen hadn't done that ritual he wouldn't have escaped Limbo.

If the Slayer revives in Hell he doesn't just get to keep going as a zombie forever. Eternal lore says Hell's victims eventually degrade into demon biomatter and their soul leaks from their body to pool into Essence. Nothing says this wouldn't eventually happen to Doomguy.

So Valen's ritual was still instrumental.

[wintry perch]

the real question is how many times the Slayer has died

[forest cave]

Something of note: Hugo claims the sarcophagus in TDA that the Slayer is resurrected in, and the sarcophagus in 2016, are one and the same.

[faint cosmos]

Hmmmmm

Is it the same sarcophagus in the sense that he can only be revived from it?

This implies he’ll stole his sarcophagus

Also is it the same same same one as the ending of tag 2?

[wintry perch]

my question is wtf were the creatures keeping the Slayer in a bubble and how did he become free by removing the tether

[wintry perch]

they seemed like smaller old ones

[forest cave]

That I'm not sure of, but I would imagine yes.

The way he frames it seems to suggest the sarcophagus is some kind of ancient Primeval artifact linked to Doomguy and/or Davoth, like the Crucibles.

[faint cosmos]

What I do wonder is the ending of tag 2

Is that the true ending of doom?

Like this doom timeline anyways?

I could be remembering wrong but I believe killing davoth only killed all demons outside of hell right? And they are now trapped in hell?

[wintry perch]

see that's what i wondered

couldn't they just, crawl back out of hell

[forest cave]

Correct. It is explicitly said that this action only kills all Hell beings outside of Hell.

[wintry perch]

how many demons were still away from hell anyways

[forest cave]

The Slayer is literally trapped in Hell, in fact. The sarcophagus is in Ingmore's Sanctum, above the Blood Swamps.

[faint cosmos]

My understanding is without Davoth for now there is no strong enough force to allow demons to escape no?

But this would imply nothing can enter hell either

Because humans easily opened. A portal to hell

[wintry perch]

I wonder if the Trial of Maligog prevails but instead of seeing the father at the end its seeing the Slayers sarcophagus

[wintry perch]

also this

[wintry perch]

basically witnessing a dormant legend

[faint cosmos]

Granted, nothing stops a stronger outside force from trying to utilize hells troops, we already have multiple dimensions and chtulu creatures

[forest cave]

By default Hell exists outside of the Earthly Realms. It's emphasized that normally demons can only escape Hell by opportunistically latching onto dimensional tears or mishaps, like the UAC's gateway technology in Doom 1993.

This is why the Maykr pact was so beneficial to them. The Maykrs allowed Hell easy access to worlds under their dominion.

Otherwise, portals to Hell can be opened by cultists or zombies via ritual, but that requires demonic influence that has already come from Hell.

[wintry perch]

"Davoth is defeated" mfers seeing Chutlu casually walk out of a massive portal

[forest cave]

Hahaha. That was originally a concept I had for a possible future game.

But yeah. TAG2's ending can easily be written around.

[faint cosmos]

I still wanna see my singleplayer ( with co op option) hell on earth horde game

Give us soldiers surviving ( well ultimately dying) during the hell on earth invasion

Gimme my doom 4 dammit ;-;

I dont ask for much Hugo but gimme hell on earth while its happening

[wintry perch]

7 hour war from half life on crack

actually the humans fared better in Eternal against the Demons than they did in Half life 2 against the combine

probably bc the technology they had was enough for a fighting chance

[faint cosmos]

Demons knowing to stay away from Australia

[wintry perch]

some poor ARC soldier armed only with a modless plasma rifle entering a room with 2 Pinkies and a Hell knight

[faint cosmos]

They opened a portal, saw the spiders, and closed it real quick

[wintry perch]

Arachnotrons saw the face of god

rightfully retreated

[forest cave]

They kept standing after 14 years of war, yeah.

[winter oxide]

um , The Darkness? That one edgy as fuck shooter

[granite tusk]

In the level itself this called limbo. In Elmer's concept art in this place meant to be The World Tree, that made from bone of the first titan.

[forest cave]

Can you source this? That sounds very interesting.

[winter oxide]

well damn, can't post the link

[granite tusk]

Nathan Elmer's artstation.
The server doesn't allow to share artstation links, for some reason.

[forest cave]

Found it. Hmmm. Very interesting.

[granite tusk]

Built be the gods from first titan's body

[winter oxide]

sadly only the creepy forest made it into the game

[granite tusk]

Sad but true

[dusky haven]

Still so disappointed that Limbo never made it into the game. Heartbroken, actually

[quaint geyser]

Why is the concept art ALWAYS better with these games

[winter oxide]

exploration of how game would look like and time constraints

[limber geyser]

So Doom 2 but more story driven

I'm working on a fanfic trying to do that

[wintry perch]

i thought it was mostly on par with the final product in these games

[wicked turtle]

They made it look like a nervous system in one of those concept arts, woulda been cool as Hell

[forest cave]

Been replaying Eternal and having to note a lot more shit for the guide. New Codex contradiction: some files say the ARC was founded in 2151, but others imply it was 2150.

The shit with Elena Richardson's logs are kind of wild. The first log is late January, the next two are early February, and the last is early March. All four logs imply that the Slayer has already started fighting against the Earth invasion, but this is only a little less than halfway through the game.

The only conclusion you can really reach is that the Slayer's already been fighting the Hell Priests for a month or two by the time Eternal starts, and only Elena's final log was actually made during the events of the game.

[twilit heart]

I always felt like he finished his crusade in Eternal in less than a year. Wouldn't say couple of days, but definitely couple of months. Efficient eradication, much?

However I also think that TAG2 happens a lot later, because I believe that the events that turned Earth into Reclaimed Earth (level) with all the floods and tropical forest thing were the consequences of us blowing up Mars. I dunno if the devs ever thought of that, but basically if the Moon is broken in half, and Mars is drilled through, it would definitely change life on Earth for 180.

Which was, again, better option than the demons.

[forest cave]

There's likely a time gap between Eternal and TAG1, yeah. It's weird because the demons getting control of the Holt is a "holy fuck we need to take care of this NOW" situation but the fact the ARC is using a Sentinel teleporter and Reclaimed Earth as a whole implies a decent amount of time has passed.

[wicked turtle]

Kinda makes sense because of Nilox's death with medalion and all

[forest cave]

Unless maybe nature taking back Reclaimed Earth happens at an accelerated pace because of the Hellgrowth dying? I dunno.

[twilit heart]

If the game was to follow the real life logic, breaking the Moon in half causes probably floods or draughts. Blowing up Mars could change the whole climate on Earth. Like who knows, maybe the Earth is all ocean now? ARC base IS on the ship in TAGs.

[cerulean vessel]

Imagine we get to fight Nilox’s champion in the epilogue of the DLC for The Dark Ages

[forest cave]

Perhaps. We know that the UAC has mastered artificial gravity machines thanks to some flavor text in 2016, so maybe they could have prevented it? I dunno.

[cerulean vessel]

I think the moon broke in half from the meteorite in RAGE, notice how it doesn’t have any demonic corruption on it

[twilit heart]

I mean maby? I dont think anyone in id thought how blowing a hole in a surface of Mars would affect Earth sooooo... I like to say that - in His wish to save us, He inevitably doomed us, but at least we got the lesser of 2 evils, right? 😄

I mean it's DOOM and he is DOOMguy, so... as we'd say here "where he threads the grass doesnt grow" haha.

[ebon finch]

We knew that already though, right? Doomguy kills the first hell priest without a boss fight preceding it, meaning he took out a Guardian with nothing but double-jump boots and an unmodified shotgun (lol)

[forest cave]

We know that he fought the Guardian, yes, not so much that he had already been active on Earth for months before Eternal. Many thought maybe Nilox's Guardian was in Hell.

[forest cave]

his eyes burning with Maykr magic.

[wicked turtle]

Does that mean that the tether was activated at the same time as the Divinity Machine?

[twilit heart]

Thought that was obvious.

[forest cave]

Maybe not the exact same time, but he likely spent very little time as himself before the Tether was put on him.

The way I see it, he came out of the Divinity Machine, killed the Titan, then passed out and was Tethered from there.

[twilit heart]

Are you telling me that we wont get to see that Titan murder on Taras Nabad in DLC or new game? D:
Lame.

[ebon finch]

Oh, i had not considered that TDA happens after the divinity machine. Wow that's super lame

[forest cave]

You literally kill hordes of zombies just by landing on the ground near them. Of course he's a superhuman already.

He wasn't known as the Slayer until after he went through the Machine.

[ebon finch]

I think not of such things. I have only vibes

[forest cave]

Not unless the DLC is a prequel to Dark Ages. That already happened by the time TDA begins.

Before he goes through the Machine, he is just a normal human. He isn't called the Slayer or given the mark or whatever until after.

[lapis saffron]

Hi chat

What’re we talkin about

[twilit heart]

I like how we cant decide if he was a human or is human still.

If he even was a human pre div machine cuz one can interpret E1M8 as him dying in... whats technically Hell.

[ebon finch]

all the ways in which you are directly responsible for the demon invasion

how could you.

[lapis saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/filter4jm-gif-13771977332247956535

[twilit heart]

Whaaa? Someone got to it before me!? 😭😭😭

[lapis saffron]

I don’t rly think he died in E1M8

[twilit heart]

Fair. I like to think so cuz there was no way he could survive that encounter, and generally the guy in the 1st episode was suppose to die, hence "buddy dacote" ir whatever.

But like I said its not really said out loud so... Whatever goes.

[lapis saffron]

I think if he had they might’ve abandoned that plot point by now given he was human in Doom II

[lapis saffron]

This is true yea but u gotta remember he was standing on a teleporter which technically ends the level before he properly dies

[twilit heart]

True, tho the end text does not look that promising.

Tho IF he died, im pretty sure he didnt know. Sooo he wouldve continued thinking hes human. Hence doom 2.

I like to think that he was fked up from the start, hence "and hell followed", even tho such story depth wasnt really planned in the classics.

But yeah that's just my view. 😢

[lapis saffron]

Fair fair

It is a cool idea

[forest cave]

I think we can squarely define him as "a human with the powers of a Primeval."

It's a biased POV, but Elena Richardson in Eternal says that they can still determine him biologically to be a male human, with an AB+ blood type and the corresponding genome.

[wintry perch]

I think the Divinity machine kind of stinks bc it feels just kinda handed upon him randomly, wouldn't it have been cooler if he had to earn that

considering how expansive hell is, i wouldn't be too far off to have some sort of nightmarish trails for the Slayer to go through to get such power

but no, Samuel just goes "lol have this"

[forest cave]

The thing with him earning it is it implies that it is a reward. I would argue it's a curse more than anything. IMO The Dark Ages goes a long way in showing us that this duty had been forced upon him, and then his mind further fucked with by the Tether.

[wintry perch]

thats fair

[ebon finch]

Well, we know he was fighting demons better than anyone up to that point and that several other attempts had been made to give that power to the sentinels (which eventually led to marauders)

[forest cave]

The Testaments tend to use language fitting that sort of interpretation. "The path of perpetual torment."

[wintry perch]

huh I didn't know that

[wintry perch]

rather than a reward, maybe i should have worded it as "Trials to know if he can handle the curse"

[ebon finch]

I forget the specifics but mono def knows... marauders are sentinels that died and THEN went thru the machine

[quaint geyser]

it also makes everyone, Sentinels and Humans, view him as a monster who just wants to kill demons with zero humanity (which is weirdly meta now that I think about it)

[forest cave]

Well, the Divinity Machine was purposefully used to drive Sentinels crazy and/or kill them. Samur had to reverse the polarity for it to help the Slayer.

The Machine was being used for generations to "cull" the Sentinels. Samur reversed the polarity and used it on the Slayer. After that the Khan used it to revive dead Loyalist Sentinels as Marauders.

By the time we find it again in Eternal, it's broken.

But yeah BRO, you are otherwise on the money. The Divinity Machine did a lot.

[forest cave]

Yeah. I see TDA primarily as a story about the Slayer regaining the trust of the Sentinels because of that.

[wintry perch]

"The Slayer is dangerous, keep your distance"

[winter oxide]

Been thinking about why initial direction of Doom 4 was so disconnected from Doom 3, then i remembered that by the end of it hell was basically contained and they weren't sure how to move to the hell on earth part so they just made a completely separate continuity where exactly that happens.

[forest cave]

Playing Eternal, and want to point out that while the Dreadnought has basically the same design as other Titans, it is in fact verifiably larger than the Titans we fight in TDA.

Like twice as tall it seems.

Also, something that isn't quite as contradictory as I thought: while some have pointed out the possible contradiction that the Dreadnought couldn't be defeated by the Sentinels despite them having used Atlans during the Unholy Wars, History of the Sentinels - Part IX doesn't actually say that the Dreadnought was the first Titan they found - rather, that they were caught off guard by it suddenly manifesting in Taras Nabad.

Given details on Taras Nabad in its own Codex file, what I think we can presume is that Taras Nabad was a cultural holy city, not a military city, and thus they didn't have any Atlans ready to deploy. They likely were defending the city's borders, so they were caught off guard by a Titan suddenly coming from inside the city.
So I don't think it's that the Sentinels couldn't possibly kill the Dreadnought. Rather, they didn't have the resources to quickly kill it before it would ravage the entire city.

Also, given TDA's Cultist shit, I believe it's possible this was Ahzrak's first attack on Argent D'Nur, that this was his first major attack as leader of the horde. It would make sense, and I think that would mean the Dreadnought was summoned via cultist activity, something no Hell leader before Ahzrak had attempted.

[tired sand]

Hmm that's very possible

[forest cave]

Also, just wanna say I love this line in the Codex:

What Hell saw that day was the beating heart of the free people of Argent D'Nur; they did not flinch in the face of their own certain death. They died as they lived, with sword and shield in hand, Urdak too low a place to house such giants. Theirs would be the fate of warrior gods, remembered for all time.

[tired sand]

But is there a chance id might change Dreadnought's design later down the road?

Since he looks exactly the same as a Thrall

But bigger

[forest cave]

Eh, maybe.

[lapis saffron]

What’s the haps

[forest cave]

Also this:

If the Slayer does live, let him carry our vengeance forward. If he persists, let him wreak violence on those who have wronged us. May the blood on his sword never dry, may his war never end until the guilty have been punished, and may this evil never again spread its shadow across another world.
TDA does a neat job tying into this: once the Slayer is resurrected, your objective simply says "PUNISH THE GUILTY."

[tired sand]

We talking bout Dreadnought and what was the reason behind Argenta not being able to take immediate action against him

[lapis saffron]

Lowk falling out of my doom obsession rn

[tired sand]

Yeah love that

[tired sand]

Ahh that's fine

[quaint geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/george-lucas-its-poetry-rhymes-gif-19518899

[lapis saffron]

I kinda wish it was more interesting

More than just Big Titan

[forest cave]

No yeah I agree.

I don't really like the Dreadnought's design in Eternal.

Interesting thing: Demonic Troopers wield bio-organic guns made of gore and what seems to be a tiny Lost Soul.

[lapis saffron]

Isn’t this a gun from 2016

[radiant snow]

I pity the Lost Souls man they keep getting used in really obscure ways in Eternal

[lapis saffron]

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Reaper_(weapon)

They use this weapon from 2016’s multiplayer

[forest cave]

Oh shit. That's wild.

I never touched 2016's multiplayer, that is a nice find.

[lapis saffron]

Lowk I do not get why they didn’t just give them the attacks the gun from 2016 had and rather just had them use generic attacks

Would’ve spiced them up a little

[quaint geyser]

also their backstory is pretty miserable. Like they throw themselves at the Slayer just to kill themselves cuz there's no reason in existence for them

[radiant snow]

Good, I feel immense hatred for them after DOOM 64

[lapis saffron]

There’s some cool multiplayer maps

Some of which have a much cooler take on hell than the base campaign

[quaint geyser]

that's fair

[radiant snow]

DOOM 2016's multiplayer as a whole is pretty awesome, the clip of it is gone but I once landed a nasty triple kill with the Prowler and it's such a huge ego boost
-# But that's for another channel

[lapis saffron]

https://doomwiki.org/w/images/e/ed/Boneyard_Header.jpg @forest cave multiplayer 2016 Hell is super sick

Ok image isn’t loading for me but ideally the link takes u to doom wiki

[radiant snow]

It loads after you click on it for some reason

[quaint geyser]

im actually so mad this one isn't in a campaign level yet

[lapis saffron]

Oh actually another fun fact

[forest cave]

Oh that looks cool actually.

[lapis saffron]

Like how the demonic troopers in Immora reuse the reaper gun from the multiplayer of 2016

[quaint geyser]

here's more

[lapis saffron]

That giant skeleton in the image I posted is used in Immora for all the dead titans too lol

Immora is deadass just stolen 2016 MP assets stuck together

[quaint geyser]

(and Urdak)

[lapis saffron]

https://doomwiki.org/w/images/1/18/Boneyard_Demon_2.jpg

I love this giant demon skeleton in Boneyard that reminds me of Kronos from Doom RPG

[radiant snow]

These games' multiplayer modes are always fun to look into because almost nobody pays attention to them while they're full of awesome shit. SnapMap too with its Quake remakes and exclusive Classic DOOM geometry

[quaint geyser]

Eternal's multiplayer maps also rock

[lapis saffron]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1414528274637262961/1454823779057532958/IMG_5112.webp?ex=69527dba&is=69512c3a&hm=cdc6f3f721698ff55225f689282e4e91e65f60ce2c3dfc14493f210aea7914a9&

For comparison ^^

[tired sand]

Interesting

[quaint geyser]

damn i still know little to nothing about doom rpg

[tired sand]

Well it was always to dive into 2016 multiplayer

[radiant snow]

You make up 50% of DOOM RPG's playerbase

[lapis saffron]

It’s pretty neat

[lapis saffron]

it’s a good game

[tired sand]

I've played em too

[lapis saffron]

they should bring it back for mobile

[quaint geyser]

can you download it on PC at all?

[lapis saffron]

there is a fan port that we aren’t allowed to talk about

[quaint geyser]

i wont ask lol

[twilit heart]

I dislike how whichever Sentinel scribe made that entry, writes like the Slayer belongs to the Argenta worlds alone. "Those who wronged US". Like demons friggin wronged every world they stepped in, including Slayer's own. Would be more fair if they used different wording. Beacause, he was, firstly from Earth. He is, originally, "ours", not space roman tool of vengeance. I think this was doen better in Doom3 with the soul cube. "We want revenge and you weild the tool, WOULD YOU KINDLY?" I dunno. I'm just biased everything on these 'lore discussion' monologues (pun intended) seems to always revolve around Sentinels and Argentas like we, as Earthlings don't even matter. But that's just me I guess.

[forest cave]

To be fair they likely don't know about the world the Slayer came from.

They say he had "arcane munitions" with him. Like they don't know where he came from. If Doomguy's original Earth was a place the Sentinels colonized it was likely very disparate.

[lapis saffron]

I like how it’s essentially Doom 3: Classic Edition lol

[tired sand]

If iirc Sentinels literally said his shotgun shells/ammunition were from arcane origin so yeah

[tired sand]

Yes that one

[radiant snow]

They were talking about the League of Legends show

[quaint geyser]

what's league of legends

[tired sand]

True

[lapis saffron]

Don’t let anyone tell you

[tired sand]

It's a secret

[radiant snow]

Anti-deodorant

[forest cave]

I don't care about the game but the show was a 10/10 show.

[tired sand]

It repels women away according to that specific meme

[lapis saffron]

I thought the first season was good and the second was naff

[tired sand]

It was indeed but I found the 2nd season meh

[quaint geyser]

haven't watched or played either, but i had a friend who was obsessed with it back during S1's debut

[forest cave]

I liked the second season honestly.

Hivemind Viktor was awesome.

[quaint geyser]

the animation looks fantastic, that's all i know really

[lapis saffron]

It wasn’t the worst thing ever made but it was a noticeable step down IMO

[twilit heart]

They literally DO know that there was a world? Or maybe they're stupid, like... "Oh this guy comes from somewhere, speaks different language and has some different tech with him, speaks of some 'others' but I THINK HE DEFINITLY CAME FROM NOWHERE. But yeah, no, I understand that the codex was written from sentinel pov. I'm just annoyed by it. And I dont understand why ppl here put them on a pedestal, when this Slayer's story in Argenta is literally Crixus of acnient Rome.

[tired sand]

Give this man a truth nuke

[forest cave]

I moreso mean they don't know what his original world was. They know he came from somewhere but the place he came from isn't relevant to them and they don't know anything about it.

Keep in mind as well that Doom II's Earth was just one planet. The fall of Argent D'Nur meant the fall of an intergalactic empire. Many planets were doomed to eventually become food for Hell.

Not just any intergalactic empire but like. Man, as a whole. Like Argent D'Nur is the origin of mankind.

[twilit heart]

Is it confirmed that it is?

Because if so - no wonder we're fked.

And again, that is literally not what I was on about, as I stated, previousy "I undersant that the codex was written from the sentinel pov". But sure go on with your monologue, Mono.

[forest cave]

Codex lore heavily implies it, as do environmental details in Eternal.

1. History of the Sentinels says that they began expanding to other planets and dimensions once the Maykrs made their deal with them.

2. Cultist Codex files say that the Sentinels began colonizing Earth 60 million years or so before the events of Eternal.

3. An ancient desecrated church in Hell on Earth has Sentinel scripture on it.

4. History of the Sentinels also confirms that the Sentinels were created by the Wraiths,

5. and TDA confirms Sentinels are humans.

Doom 3's Martians, which are very likely the Sentinels as well, were also heavily implied to be proto-humans as well.

[forest cave]

Not every response I have is an explicit rebuttal to something you said. The point is to have a conversation and use messages as a springboard to elaborate with more information.

[twilit heart]

So you are implying that our original Earth from classics was also Argenta made, and that we somehow traveled not just space and dimensions but time as well, because at the time Earth exists in the classics, we have no records of Argenta? (You are not allowed to use the card of "thats classics lore" because you are the one making the connections).

As for Doom3 'martians', it's not implied. It is literally SAID it the game that they are our predecessors, as it is the popular belief irl that we came from Martians, lol.

[twilit heart]

Well when you derail with the information damp, it actually comes off like that.

[forest cave]

Yes, I am saying this. If the game posits that humans come from the Sentinels, that the Sentinels colonized many dimensions, and that the Sentinels were created by the Wraiths, it is very unlikely that humans would come from two completely different, unrelated origins that still created identical species. I do believe the classic games' humans also come from the Sentinels.

I don't really think it has to involve time travel. Time travel implies directly going backwards in continuity, but the Earthly Realms are completely disconnected from one another and nothing says their timelines have to be "synced." I think a Sentinel clan likely hopped a universe to the left and started humanity in the classic realm.
I think the Bethian Clansmen likely hopped a universe to the right and became the Martians in Doom 3.

[twilit heart]

So you agree, then, that the 'universe' of Doom games has reacurring events? Sentinels will always escape to Earth. Demons will always attack, etc? You agree, then, that the events are Cyclical and repeating?

Is the Slayer, then, a single interdimensional instance, or is it another reacurring event?

[forest cave]

I wouldn't say they are repeating in the sense that there is a literal cycle, but I would argue there is some form of destiny making things more likely to happen. Take the UAC, which is present in every realm where humans exist. Well, that means there is an underlying thing connecting every UAC iteration - they all come from humans who came from Sentinels. It wouldn't surprise me if there were some proto-UAC in Sentinel culture that always manages to worm its way into modern human culture and the result is the UAC itself.

[lapis saffron]

[forest cave]

The Slayer himself is unique. There are many Earthly Realms but there is only one Hell, one Urdak, and one Slayer. I would argue the presence of multiple Doomguys is possible (depending on how you define the term "Doomguy") but only one of them became the Slayer.

[twilit heart]

And thus, there's no Doom without the Slayer? 😄

[forest cave]

Well, there's Doom 3! And I quite like that game.

But there's no Doom without a Doomguy. But I also think Doomguy can be, like, anyone really - so that's kind of a nothingburger sentence.

[twilit heart]

I said "Slayer" specifically because I know you separate Slayer from Doomguy while I don't... Even tho I know there are mutiple iterations of the archetype, D3Guy being one of them, and D3RoEGuy being the other.

I also forgot how RoE ends. Should replay it.

[radiant snow]

I don't understand how it ends

[forest cave]

I mean it's more just a thematic separation. OG Doomguy and the Doom Slayer are the same man. It's just the story treats him differently depending on where we are in the continuity.

[quaint geyser]

marine puts his hand in Betruger's mouth and then dies

[forest cave]

||It seems the protagonist dies and either hallucinates Elizabeth McNeil as he dies, or he reunites with her in the afterlife. This happens after killing the Maledict using the Heart of Hell.||

[tired sand]

Literally

[twilit heart]

Ye I definitely need to replay RoE. I just remember I laughed my eyes off at the opening intro. I was like "Stan, no, don't touch that". I called him Stan because that name made sense at the moment (not to do anything with Blazkowitz theory). It's just someone who touches things and breaks shit - Stan. Or Bob. But that one bugged imp I named "Bob".

[forest cave]

I like to think he's Dave.

[twilit heart]

Dave works fine too.

[tired sand]

Bob the minion

[forest cave]

I wish ROE's protag were the same guy as the base game's protag. I'd prefer that.

[quaint geyser]

or he's the same marine from DOOM 3 but rapidly aged because PTSD or smth

[twilit heart]

Oh come on, let "John Kane" go home and be only Doom marine that ever survived the uac encounter.

[tired sand]

I don't think there is much of a timeskip in between the events of the base D3 and RoE

[twilit heart]

(Not like he'll survive it for too long hehehehe)

[tired sand]

evil laugh

[quaint geyser]

i mean it is called DOOM, everyone's doomed in this universe

[tired sand]

The literal name

[quaint geyser]

the demons, humanity, the maykrs, the Sentinels, even Doomguy himself, they're all a fucking wreck by the end

[twilit heart]

Ive been saying this for a whole year now, shoving vocabulary into ppl's faces.

[forest cave]

I prefer there to be some glimmers of hope here and there though. Doom Eternal ultimately ends with the Slayer finding respite, I feel.

2016 frames his time in the sarcophagus as "silent suffering." I think him going back in there in TAG2 is "silent respite." He finally gets to rest with some inner peace after accomplishing his mission, for however long until he is needed again.

[twilit heart]

Wouldn't really call it respite. A sleepless dream, locked in a box for another cycle. It's like an "anti-demon" box. You just POP him out when you need him.

[tired sand]

"Wake me when you need me"

[twilit heart]

But yeah, AT LEAST he goes in a box knowing he ended demons. To an extent.

[tired sand]

Yeah so a lil bitter sweet ending for now

[quaint geyser]

until Samur takes over Hell and he has to wake up again or smth

[tired sand]

Ahh the dark priest prophecy theory

[quaint geyser]

I STILL HAVENT FORGOTTEN EITHER DAMMIT

[radiant snow]

I would love if the casket closing symbolised they're giving DOOM a rest for now and we're getting some Quake, RAGE, or Hexen first, but life is evil

[twilit heart]

Wouldn't say it bitter sweet enging tho. He's probably pissed he was tricked again, and rendered of the Davoth's powers... He might even wither inside. Open the box and there's just dust there. But the dust is full of spite and it just suffocates you lol.

[tired sand]

Imagine a Jason Voorhees situation

[twilit heart]

WHICH ONE there like 50 movies where he keeps coming back. xD

[quaint geyser]

we all would've (well most of us i dunno)

[tired sand]

Even I can't remember lmao

[forest cave]

I wouldn't mind this. I think Doom is in a really great place right now and we can afford to let it rest for a bit and give Quake some time to shine.

I think reviving Quake as a spooky fucking horror action shooter would be awesome.

[twilit heart]

A lone Ranger wonders about dimensions and cosmic shit and steps onto a straaaaange sarcophagus and a new epic 2 player coop sensation was born!

[tired sand]

The forbidden fruit of fps games

[quaint geyser]

the Cosmic Realm IS the Quake realm, i'm tellin ya'll

[radiant snow]

I hope they keep being seperate IPs actually, same for every other id thing

[lapis saffron]

Sorryyyy ID retconned that in a game and a remaster.,,,,.,,.,

[tired sand]

But imo with how TDA handled modern presentation of Lovecraftian concepts, id should be able to pull off a much darker iteration of eldritch horror in Quake

[radiant snow]

Friendslop DOOM game 💔

[tired sand]

Friendslop lmaoooo

[quaint geyser]

i mean i would've rather they keep DOOM and Quake seperate forever too, but at this point, I'd rather them just say the Cosmic Realm is the Quake realm than just have DOOM have its own Lovecraft realm

[forest cave]

I honestly hope not. I want Quake to be its own thing. Connecting it to Doom will only make it a sidekick for Doom, and Quake deserves better.

I also, like... I really like the Cosmic Realm but it does not scream Quake to me. Quake's Lovecraft realm should be a lot worse. A lot darker and more isolated, treacherous, incomprehensible. The Cosmic Realm is actually quite comprehensible.

[lapis saffron]

He got sent to Heaven (at least that was presumably the intent)

[twilit heart]

I think that, visually, it was good, but theoretically and in terms of lovecraft it was bad. But "rule of cool" and it goes, I guess.

[quaint geyser]

that's fair, but I dunno I guess I like the idea of "oh Doomguy just stumbled upon the Quake realm one time and killed Cthulhu, that was fun!"

[radiant snow]

I'd still rather they be seperate realms because I want the least connection between these IPs as possible

[tired sand]

Implementation of Lovecraft's works in a shooter game is hard in itself but they tried to make it different and I respect that

[radiant snow]

Like Mono said, every non-DOOM id IP is treated too much as an alternative to DOOM, while they all rock in their own way

[forest cave]

I am reminded of how the Quake enemies were designed with the idea that they're all blind because it's so fucking dark where they come from they have no need for eyes. That is a spooky thought and I want that built upon.

[tired sand]

True true

[radiant snow]

This will be DOOM 4 #general message

[forest cave]

I can't imagine what would be lost if the MachineGames Wolfenstein titles didn't have the freedom to be their own fantastic games.

[twilit heart]

Welp, Doom and Quake started interlacing the moment we got Quake Arena and Quake Champions. But at that time both titles were a thing.
2016 and Eternal didnt help with terminology they used like "slipgates". Let's not even mention Cosmic realm. So they games intertwine, like it or not. And if they're intertwining LET IT BE EXTRAVAGANT.

[tired sand]

Imo if they ever bring Quake back, they should try to make zero connections with Doom

[tired sand]

Hmm do we talk about Youngblood and TNC?

[radiant snow]

Yeah because they're both still good games

[forest cave]

I liked TNC. I can't comment on Youngblood.

[radiant snow]

I hate to constantly disagree but I would not enjoy this at all. It'd feel like something from an ideas wiki

[forest cave]

Shit like Doomguy in Quake Champions is fine because it's spinoff bullshit. But I don't want Quake playing expy to Doom.

[twilit heart]

I hated new Wolfenstein games the moment they got into drama.l I just wanted to shoot cyber nazis. Not watch a cgi character fall apart on screen. I didnt pay for a movie war drama, I paid for the game. An ACTION game at that. If I wanted something story driven, I wouldn't have picked wolfenstein.

[radiant snow]

I respectfully disrespectfully disagree

[quaint geyser]

i think you've got very specific taste in these games lol

[radiant snow]

These games are actual art, I can't imagine them not being dramatic

[quaint geyser]

and I haven't even played Wolfenstein, all I know is that it's more story heavy

[tired sand]

Tbf I liked TNO the most but I can't deny the way TNC tried to carve the story out after TNO

[radiant snow]

TNO ran so TNC could walk

Still an awesome game in terms of gameplay, but the story took a huge hit. Aside from the entire Texas chapter, it's kind of a nothing burger story

[tired sand]

I did play Youngblood and it was quite an experience to say the least without sounding like a baby with temperament

[forest cave]

Yeesh. I can somewhat understand this sort of mentality for Doom, but The New Order's best quality is its narrative. I think at some point when you're constantly making games about a real life group of genocidal monsters you have to eventually try to say something interesting in using them.

[twilit heart]

That's alright, I said its my personal preference. If i pick an anction game, I dont wanna watch a drama. If i want a drama, there's a game for that. I always compare it to some nonse I saw on reddit where a guy bitches at outlast trials for not having a shotgun. And I dont' think every game has to be everything. Its okay if an action game is just actiony and horror game is just horror, and story driven thing is a story driven thing. It doesnt have to be EVERYTHING. Its why the game market is so oversaturated with everything because now we have intertwining genres like - it's a story but its action, but it also cooks and cleans. Jesus christ make it simple.

[radiant snow]

I don't really get the point you're trying to make, I think if you want a good game you also want good story to go along with good gameplay

[quaint geyser]

dude what do you mean, the scene where Hitler pissed in a bucket was one of the most emotional scenes in gaming history

[radiant snow]

Not this again 🥀

[tired sand]

I would like to say that a story's role in a game is to compliment the gameplay and elevate the experience, even for a bit but... not all games require the help of a narrative to excel and accomplish what it wants to

[lapis saffron]

doom 3 -> Doom rpg -> final doom -> FNaF 3 -> Doom TAG 1 my timeline do you guys like

[quaint geyser]

fnaf 3 is the best doom game fr

[tired sand]

Thank you grist for confirming Fnaf 3's relevance in Doom

[lapis saffron]

No worries

[tired sand]

So real

[radiant snow]

I've played games with phenomenal gameplay and average story and thought they rocked, I've played games with average gameplay and phenomenal story and thought they rocked. TNO does both things great and it stands out for me

[quaint geyser]

(Half-Life)

[tired sand]

-# 3

[lapis saffron]

This is true but I think my top 3 games do have pretty solid narratives

[forest cave]

They don't always require it, but I would be hard-pressed to find a game I enjoy that didn't have some sort of basic plotline or narrative to justify the story and give you something to invest in.

[lapis saffron]

Idk I have Katana Zero and OMORI in my top 3 so

I’m not sure what the 3rd would be actually I’ve played many a game

[tired sand]

Fucking Omori mentioned!?! Noway

[lapis saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/hello-omori-tenor-doom-doomguy-omori-omori-tenor-gif-26565743

[tired sand]

I think I share this sentiment

[lapis saffron]

Yeah true

[tired sand]

Hell yeah

[twilit heart]

Not really no. For instance, Im fine with the 'story' in Doom as it is now - exposition. It serves the purpose to put us on a path, gives us the reason to go. I dont need nor want it to go deeper and more black and white, explaining things to a T, because I like to ponder on it on my own and argue with Mono. Now take Mass Effect. Entirely different game, amazing game. Love it. But there's nothing to ponder about? It's a great complete experiance, an interactive movie which leaves you full... Until it expires. I will always love those games, tho.

Also dunno if it helps my argument, but my favorite (next to Doom) be Legacy of Kain series who ditched the gameplay for storytelling. The games are atricuiys to play, but I was never there for the gameplay, but the story and... unskippable monologues. xD

Thats why I keep telling Mono to try it out. He would have sooooooo much to ponder on.

[forest cave]

Mass Effect's on the list, but I'd have to pry myself away from playing the same like 4 game series over and over.

[twilit heart]

Nono, I meant Legacy of Kain.

[lapis saffron]

we all know the best video game ever is the newly released Garten of Banban VR and that has a story so case closed

[tired sand]

Wait there's VR now?

[lapis saffron]

Yeah lol it’s free

[tired sand]

I remember engrossing myself in Banban's lore

[quaint geyser]

it's probably only free cuz they don't need to make any more money off it

[lapis saffron]

I would never willingly do that

[tired sand]

I did cuz of Mark

[lapis saffron]

Well and it only covers the free portion of the originals

[quaint geyser]

a-

[tired sand]

Also being a stupid guy who reads random stories for no reason, I found Banban's lore stupidly atrocious

[winter oxide]

Definitely not, there's a clear distinction - no direct use of Lovecraft names even if it still follows the naming he used

[winter oxide]

The New Order is amazing, replayed recently cause was bored at work

truly one of the games of all time

[cerulean vessel]

It would be really cool if they consolidated the Cosmic Realm and Quake though

[twilit heart]

I mean they already are sort of connected? And I disagree Arena and Champs are spinoffs. Champs, especially, have lore on 4 realms, out of which, i think 3 are already shown and or/mentioned in "nuDoom", tho probably not under the same names. And wasnt Q3A something about alien race kidnapping warrior dimension-wide to make an ultimate battle thrill, or something? Something like the movie "Predators" that came later, buuuut kinda more cool. UNLESS it was someone's speculation that is known today as 'head canon'.

I drank like, half a small bottle of smirnoff and I already can't type right LOL.

[winter oxide]

Would be cool but it's distinct enough to be it's own thing. I'm happy that they bridged Quake 1 & 2 with most recent official expansion for Q2 tho.

[tiny sparrow]

is it??

i only played the og one

[granite tusk]

Fnaf 3 is the best Doom horror game

[limber geyser]

Maybe December of 2150

Since it's close enough you could probably round it to 2151

[limber geyser]

I mean the Slayer killed the first priest's guardian offscreen

[limber geyser]

Oh yeah why is there a hole in the moon

That always confused me (I haven't finished Eternal so maybe it's explained somewhere in the middle of the game)

[limber geyser]

I don't think the death room is diagetic

Just meant to be a cool way to end the shareware version

[radiant snow]

No shade to anyone wanting this, it's not personal, but I would hate Quake x DOOM being canon

[raw pine]

i’d settle for a very loose connection

[twilit heart]

That's fair. I mean I wouldn't want it a canon either, tbf. Maybe a cameo? An Easter Egg. I'm a fan of Quake(s) but at the same time I don't like yet ANOTHER cosmic realm in these games. It feels like "he has it, i want it too", but then again, noone says they cant separate Quake to Strogg vs Humans only and Doom to be the mythical one.

[radiant snow]

The Quake III connection is the most I personally want

[twilit heart]

BUT, i would kill for a "Predator handshake" between Slayer and Ranger, regardless of which game it is.

[limber geyser]

Oh

I'm personally all for it I think it could explain who created Davoth

[radiant snow]

Would be cool to see in a potential Quake III reremaster as an animation for when the team that both Doomguy and Ranger are in wins

[twilit heart]

Definitely as an animation because we already had a Q3A "remake" that didnt go well. Have you watched ARENAS?

[radiant snow]

Nope. And I think the remaster was great; that is assuming we are talking about the same one

[twilit heart]

Nah I meant quake champions. not really a remaster tho.

[limber geyser]

Who says it has to be another cosmic realm

[radiant snow]

I'm referring to Quake Arena Arcade, relatively obscure

[limber geyser]

The realms of Quake could be the same as Doom's cosmic realm

[twilit heart]

Oh? Well it is obscure fr cuz i didnt hear of it.

[radiant snow]

Xbox exclusive remaster, it basically spices up the singleplayer mode with more levels and new gamemodes. Plus some exclusive maps! And widescreen + achievements obv

[limber geyser]

Port it to PC

[twilit heart]

im OFFENDED its xbox exclusive!

[limber geyser]

Port it to PC now ID this is an Injustice

[radiant snow]

The new maps are available as a mod I believe, and you could recreate the singleplayer mode with the match creator
But yeah back to lore talk

[limber geyser]

Does the moon get blown up at some point in Eternal?

[twilit heart]

Ye at the beginning. Or before.

[radiant snow]

I'm pretty sure it's blown up by the intro cutscene. Maybe the codex explains it

[wicked turtle]

It's never explained

[radiant snow]

Well there we go

[limber geyser]

Ah nuts

[cerulean vessel]

No it happens at the beginning of RAGE, it’s how they’re connected mostly

[limber geyser]

Are you joking?

Genuine question cause I didn't think Rage was canon to NuDoom

[cerulean vessel]

It kind of is, besides the moon being destroyed in both games, there’s a DOOM Slayer bobblehead in the first game, and there’s a version of the BFG in RAGE 2,

Not to mention it all takes place together in the 22nd century

[radiant snow]

I don't really buy it because RAGE's story doesn't connect well with the NuDOOM story

Maybe Eggman had an announcement

[cerulean vessel]

In Eternal you see a map of the demonic corruption on Earth, but Australia has none of it. In RAGE some of the people have Australian accents, so the wasteland could be there

And the demonic corruption could be responsible for the mutations in RAGE, as well as why so many billions of people are dead. A demonic invasion + meteorite landing must be responsible

[quaint geyser]

that's what I'm saying!

[twilit heart]

Its called Easter Egg, man. 😄

[wintry perch]

No. its ALL super connected to the lore and not a fun little detail the devs added, its ALL LORE GRAHJJ

[twilit heart]

In Eternal intro when camera zooms out in the orbit you see Moon is broken already. Its not said why or when, but i suppose it doesnt matter. Broken Moon signifies cataclysm on Earth anyway.

[wintry perch]

see see when the Slayer plays with toys, thats because the UAC produces demon toys to promote the invasion

[wintry perch]

Eggman might have something to do with that

[twilit heart]

So my theory is correct, doomguy is a sentient .wad!

[wintry perch]

yes

[twilit heart]

Wohoo

[wintry perch]

My fellow UAC cult brothers seeing me play with the Slayer toy and not the Demon toys

"dude thats cringe"

[twilit heart]

Haha

[quaint geyser]

EXACTLY

[twilit heart]

Im still stuck at sentiend .wad imagining posibilities.

No wonder it runs on everything!

Hell even Doom can run Doom... since there is a .wad file in game files. Its like Inception, but Doom. Doomception... But does that make a sentient .wad superior?

[wintry perch]

in the deepest layer of the Doomception lays Hugo himself

[twilit heart]

It would've been tradition.

We have uncovered the secrets of Doom lore!

[wintry perch]

I hope we can find the fabled Doom 4 in this Doomception

[cerulean vessel]

Actually yeah probably, I thought the same thing

[twilit heart]

I thought he collects them cuz it reminds him of his son.

[wicked turtle]

He could just be an action figure nerd

[twilit heart]

He can be both.

[wicked turtle]

That’s true

[twilit heart]

My cousin collects joytoy astartes and plays with his son. And mind you my cousin IS a collector nerd.

[cerulean vessel]

No the UAC is why they exist, not why the Slayer collects them

[wintry perch]

best subtle character moments in Doom are when the Slayer plays with his toy and serrats but not any other toys due to the fact they are demons

he still collects them but simply stares at them as eons of PTSD take over

[forest cave]

It's not confirmed canon.

EpicSquid's thing is a theory, not something the game outright says.

[lapis saffron]

i think hugo said they wont really do any proper crossovers i think

[quaint geyser]

Which is a good thing honestly

[twilit heart]

yeh because then, they can take all good shit from Quake and Rage and mold it into Doom like it's supposed to be there lal

[granite tusk]

Even if there UAC and Mixom it doesn't mean nuDoom and rage in same timeline. In 2016 apears vault-tech from Fallout series, but it doesn't mean that these games is connected.

[cerulean vessel]

It just seems like too big of a coincidence that DOOM Eternal would include a big detail like the moon being destroyed and not explain it, but the game takes place after RAGE

I mean what else do you think is the reason for it, are you thinking DOOM is somehow connected to RWBY or something?

[winter oxide]

LMAO

lore of RWBY kinda reminds me of BlazBlue ngl

[twilit heart]

If we're connecting everything I wanna have Doomguy and Ranger drinking beer at the Edge of Eternity.

[radiant snow]

Or it's just a nod to RAGE without explicitly confirming canonity because the lore implications of the moon being destroyed are minimal

[twilit heart]

Easer eggs, am i rite?

I also think moon is destroyed just as environmrntal storytelling to suggest cataclysmic events. Nothing more. Nothing less. No need to make a big deal out of it. And doesnt canonize anything but the fact that the Earth is fkd.

[granite tusk]

The theory that Doom 2016 takes place in Doom 3 timeline sounds more believable, than modern doom being in the same universe as Rage. (but, still question theory too)

[quaint geyser]

i really like that one

[twilit heart]

what if original classic doom and doom 3 happaned at the same time, only 2 different guys from 2 different POVs?

[tired sand]

Could be

Since D3 is an entirely diff timeline and all

[twilit heart]

Well D3 could happen in 2016, as the years are much closer than with the OG. Ingame years, I mean.

[faint cosmos]

Issue is both d3 and 2016 project Lazarus happen at the same year

The tech, mars base, and bfg don’t line up

So it HAS to be different universes

[twilit heart]

Ye, I know. I dont' really try to connect anything when it comes to Doom. I just accept everything at face value. Cuz in my head, even Tony Hawk 3 is a Doom canon lol.

[tired sand]

Kekw

[ebon finch]

I will die on the hill that the things that separate the DOOMs are weaker than the things that unite them. Just a few snips here and there and changing the year numbers and shaBAM, one character, one continuity. People say I'm crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once... they locked me in a room...

[quaint geyser]

Exactly I mean the DOOM II manual completely contradicts the ending of DOOM I

[twilit heart]

Hey as long the family photo is on that hill, I'll stand with you.

... Holding that photo upwards at the poisoned sky. T_T

[ebon finch]

Sure, but his rage is derived from Daisy. Losing his family is just icing on the cake

[twilit heart]

The pact has been made!

I also dig to leave everything open for spec and nothing ingame, cuz that way everyone is happy. :3
I really believe Doom is a title that CAN keep everyone happy if not many things are shown. I think that's pretty much doable. Like... IT WORKED up until now, didn't it? And that approach only builds up the myth further.

[ebon finch]

I'm trying to make the argument for one continuity, but deep down I know it isn't the truth. The truth is that doomguy is exactly like barbie. Barbie can be white, black, asian, a supreme court justice, a doctor, an astronaut, and they're all just "Barbie." They all exist in the same "canon" because "Barbie" isn't a continuity, she's a mythical figure who can be anyone and do anything

You heard it here first folks: Doomguy is Barbie.

[twilit heart]

https://tenor.com/view/doomicorn-doom-doom-eternal-slayer-doom-slayer-gif-16783597

You're a friggin genius.

I would've never thought of BARBIE! 🤣

[winter oxide]

so , an eternal hero?

[ebon finch]

shiny and chrome

[rugged mauve]

What is going on

[twilit heart]

We're expanding our minds.

[rugged mauve]

Oh... sounds like fun

Btw what is slowmode

[ebon finch]

keeps us from spamming

[rugged mauve]

Oh thanks

[burnt heron]

I think it's pretty lame of an interpretation to say "oh no my pet bunny died!!! Oh and my family forgot abt them"
If anything it's the other way around

[ebon finch]

we don't see the family until 2020. We saw daisy back in 93

[burnt heron]

As a joke

[ebon finch]

daisy obviously matters more

[radiant snow]

We only knew it was Daisy in 95 🤓

[ebon finch]

fuck, you're right

[burnt heron]

Ye the bunny matters more

Bc we knew abt it first

[radiant snow]

That 2 year difference drastically changes your point, it's a world of difference, giant leap

[ebon finch]

Daisy is doomguy's most important fambly

[burnt heron]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-breaking-bad-walter-heisenberg-crawl-space-gif-19584363

[radiant snow]

I mean we saw humanity being rampaged by demons before we found out who Daisy is... so... his hatred is sourced from that!

[wintry perch]

the family does seem to be, using logic, Doomguys main motivator/source of anguish but I could see Daisy being the first thing close to him he loses to the demons

like seriously what type of sociopath would mourn a pet rabbits death more than his wife and son's death

or Daisy could've been lost after his family, still haunting Doomguy but not as much as the family

[ebon finch]

I'm just sayin. We don't see hallucinations of wife and son in the game...

[wintry perch]

one thing i won't shit on eternals story for is for being incredibly subtle about his lost family, if they weren't subtle it would have felt forced, but the way its just that single photo makes it seem like he almost buried the memory so far deep bc of how painful it is. Its far easier to mourn for your dead pet rabbit than your wife and son's death

[radiant snow]

Maybe Daisy was more traumatizing since he saw the ravaged corpse and it's a more sadistic kill from a military standpoint

[wintry perch]

i think Daisy was, in a way, just more easy to cope with than his family, that's why Daisy seems more remembered by Doomguy

[radiant snow]

I'm a firm Daisy-last believer I think she's the least important mourn from the three ones

[limber geyser]

They physically can't be anyway cause Fallout has America as a post nuclear wasteland while in NuDoom America is a post apocalypse wasteland

Not to mention the technology is more retro futuristic in Fallout

[twilit heart]

we'll agree that daisy symbolizes the previous life, and her death symbolizes the loss of the family. innocence. blah blah metaphors.

[wintry perch]

yes metaphorically, allegorically

bla bla bla anyways

payment required

gets blasted

[ebon finch]

the metaphor is he's big sad about lil bun 🙁

what's a wife?

[wintry perch]

Slayer is in fact, a very sad guy

[twilit heart]

youll figure it our one day, my guy 😉

[ebon finch]

this is discord. we don't touch grass here. (lol i actually used to be married)

[wintry perch]

this is subtly indicated by how he only plays with his own toy in Eternal and not the sick ass other toys

[wintry perch]

and I have a girlfriend irl, there's exceptions to the fabled discord norm

[burnt heron]

See that's how I thought of it

[wintry perch]

nobody happy would NOT play around with the big Icon of Sin toy

[ebon finch]

it's true, only moderators fall into that role without exception

is a moderator of two servers

[wintry perch]

Kreed Makyr ❤️

[twilit heart]

And i REALLY dig the subtlty. I really don't think it will help if we were to witness his whole breakdown on screen. I dig the family photo, but I'd hate that. If they are to even be mentioned in the DLC, i'd do it through a flashback or a cutscene of him finding the photo. And that's all.

[ebon finch]

yeah honestly i should be suing id for using my likeness without compensation

[burnt heron]

Like finding it in rubble and putting it in his pocket or smt

[twilit heart]

If you decide to go for it,lemme know, cuz i'm gonna do the same for Ulsamyr.

[wintry perch]

i really like the extra subtle approach to his family, anything else would have seemed too on the nose

[ebon finch]

Ulsamyr?

[burnt heron]

It's me!

I'm the witch

Boo

[radiant snow]

I intend to do this too but for the Doom Slayer #ego

[wintry perch]

gains

actually i should sue id for stealing my likeness with the archivlle smh

[twilit heart]

OR, if id would really want me to shut up, have Thira return him his old helmet with the photo in it and say smth very corny like "Do it for them" cuz families matteeeeerrrrrrr... I'd be bought. Ngl. I would BOW. Would even tatto her face on my own.

[wintry perch]

absolute cinema ass dialogue

[burnt heron]

Sure why not

[ebon finch]

I know you lost your family, DG. But we're your family now. Family. Family. Vin Diesel. Because family.

[radiant snow]

Homer Simpson

[burnt heron]

Family, family family family

[twilit heart]

I agree with this. Wholeheartedly. I, the doomguy's family defender, agree with this.

[wintry perch]

i think an actually good approach would be someone finding the image, like Thira and Slayer finds them looking at the image. There's silent contemplation as the photo is handed to the Slayer, he does nothing, Thira does nothing as she now understands. The Slayer throws the photo away

cinema

[ebon finch]

Honestly it's funny you bring that up because my vision for a DOOM movie series (not a "cinematic universe" fuck you) would be very much like Fast and Furious: Movies 1-2 are sane and relatively grounded action flicks and movies 3-????? are unhinged sci fi cartoons of gradually increasing insanity

[radiant snow]

Then Thira says "erm, well that just happened!"

[twilit heart]

Why would he throw it away?

[burnt heron]

Why he throwing it

[wintry perch]

"umm awkward"

[ebon finch]

haha the khan makyr is right behind me, isn't she?

[burnt heron]

Ohhhh

[wintry perch]

i think he'd throw it as an attempt to move on, considering how he treats the photo in Eternal

its symbolism basically

[burnt heron]

It is on the floor

For some reason

[twilit heart]

and HOW does he treat it in eternal? it fell off the desk. otherwise it would be 'in our faces'?

[burnt heron]

Doomguy put it back on the desk

[wintry perch]

i think the Slayer deep down, wants to forget what happened

is he stupid? thats the last remnant of his bygone family bro

[radiant snow]

He takes better care of the toy figures than his family photo lol

[twilit heart]

i disagree. He wouldve thrown away the whole thing, not just remove himself.

[wintry perch]

gotta protect the Khan Makyr action figure

[wintry perch]

he probably feels guilt, like he wasn't there to protect them from demons

[radiant snow]

That Icon of Sin figure is huge man if that thing snapped I think it'd be the next thing he'd mourn

[ebon finch]

too busy jerkin it on phobos

[twilit heart]

You are just being dicks now. The photo is on the floor because otherwise you would hate it being in your faces,. Imagine if it was framed and on the desk, ppl would be bitching more than they already are.

[burnt heron]

[ebon finch]

doomguy masturbating is canon. read the manual.

[burnt heron]

Well ik the marines got freaky looking around in Doom 3

[radiant snow]

I look away for a few seconds man I swear

[burnt heron]

Alr I'll stop

Sorry just an observation

[wintry perch]

see i like that its on the floor, but i refuse to admit its because he clumsily let it fall. I legitimately think he tries to forget his failure to save them

[burnt heron]

I like it on the floor but it's prob for a reason

[wintry perch]

tearing his face off the image really reeks of "I wasn't there for them"

[ebon finch]

they're not but i am

[twilit heart]

i dont think it matters why it is on the floor. he wouldnt keep it if he wanted to forget.

[twilit heart]

the pact has ended, BRO -.-

[ebon finch]

nooo

[wintry perch]

its imo a mix of him wanting to let go and also not at the same time, he's conflicted

so the middle ground is to midly ignore the image enough that he lets it fall

[twilit heart]

Firstly, why are you so adamant to forget about this? Why would anyone with guilt of the size of a planet want to forget about the ones he deems he let down? He kept the bunny cage (even tho its an easter egg), he kept the skateboard as, I dunno, memories of Earth's past life (also an easter egg but it counts now that we're being full of shit), and he kept the photo. If he truly wanted to move on, he wouldn't have keep it in the first place. It doesnt matter if its on the desk or under, or framed or whatever. In Eternal, he is already on Earth, going against everyone's better judgement and suggestion to set things right as way of redeeming himself, among other things. So, he cares about Earth mostly. And Earth is, regardless of which Earth = memories of his home. So no, he is not trying to forget and move on because he has nothing to move on to and he doesn't even care on moving on because he is determined to his end goal. Vengeance to demons.

If we really wanna nitpick about this - the photo is still very close to his chair, if you will, so maybe, he was sitting and looking at it, maybe he was even crying, before the fortress arrived in Earth's orbit and he just got up and rushed off. His room is pretty messy anyway with all junk food 'skittles' and pizza boxes around.

But again, if that is what you like to believe in as in your specific view - it's your own thing. I'm just saying the counter because that is what I believe in. And strongly so.

[wintry perch]

i worded myself wrong

[burnt heron]

I don't think he's moving on, he just has mission on his mind

Gotta save the planet

[twilit heart]

Even if you did worded yourself right i wouldve read it wrong, its what happens when im stressed. And this stresses me.
Family photo or gtfo. Who does not accept - feel my wrath. 😭

[ebon finch]

Does mono's guide include all the codex entries? I'm not immediately seeing them

[wintry perch]

basically, I think the picture is loaded with painful memories. He could never let it go, or want to forget his family, but it hurts every time he sees it. He must have ripped his face off the image as a way to express his guilt, he couldn't BARE to see his face with the family he couldn't save. The reason I think it seems mildly ignored in Eternal is that he can't bring himself to give it the attention it deserves, so its left in this middle ground of being there but mildly abandoned

[burnt heron]

Idk ask him

[twilit heart]

Well that is way better wording, ngls.

[ebon finch]

I figured one of yall would know lol. he'll see it soon enough i don't need to bother him (also it's time for me to go get a SAMMICH)

[radiant snow]

Mater and the babysitter from Family Guy having a very emotional debate

[wintry perch]

Dat gum

[twilit heart]

Noooo noooo... I purge.

[wintry perch]

games like Doom Eternal do give plenty of room for interpretation with the silent protagonist and more visual storytelling

[ebon finch]

fun fact: we all know "mater" as "tow mater" from the stupid car movies but "mater" pronounced "MAH-tear" is the latin word for mother

[radiant snow]

"Stupid car movies" 💔

[wintry perch]

ahem, cinema more like

[ebon finch]

i stand by it, larry the cable guy can kick rocks

[radiant snow]

Slander

[twilit heart]

YES and i LOVE that and this is why i nag and bark against more things being out in the open and in our faces. So PLEASE id, don't change. leave it vague so we can argue debate and interpret.

[wintry perch]

they should be run over by a car ❤️

so called "Cars haters" when i drive my ford explorer into their house:

[ebon finch]

you can be mad explicit and still have lots of room for debate. just look at Lord of the Rings

[twilit heart]

It's actually a meme i saw on some warhammer page. it's consuela saying "no no, I purge" and I found it hilarious.

[ebon finch]

ma'am this would make me hate cars more, not less

[wintry perch]

thats the point

[wintry perch]

you get punished for your hubris

[ebon finch]

I only just now noticed your profile pic. I didn't realize i was personally insulting you. Now that I understand who you are, I wish I had been harsher. fuck cars

[wintry perch]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1354820222447517817/1455255060245385216/kendrick-lamar-astral-claws.mp4?ex=69540f63&is=6952bde3&hm=05a00882521695eba63f7c43820aad6a1fe59a818f37a3fd828315bf43768c71&

[wintry perch]

that's the spirit

[twilit heart]

I forgot to say she's in battle sister armor lol

[twilit heart]

there's a fine line between all these things and it is VERY thin.

[limber geyser]

"There's only one Urdak (heaven) and one hell, But there are many earthly realms or dimensions as the Khan Maykr calls the one where the Slayer comes from. Those you could probably consider different universes." Did I explain the Doom Multiverse correctly?

Currently talking with a friend on why I can't fit my Sonic project into Doom

[twilit heart]

Now we only have to find Doomguy in our universe and never let him join the military.

[limber geyser]

He asked if Doom has a multiverse so I said this

[limber geyser]

Would be funny if we exist in the boring earthly realm where nothing happens

[ebon finch]

how many balrogs are there slade. tell me. how many

[twilit heart]

I think our demons are not corporeal. they pretty much live within us. so yeah, boring shit.

[twilit heart]

i have no idea pact breaker, i am not that huge tolkein fan, but i can google.

google says between 3 and 7

[wintry perch]

Shadow would probably work in Doom, he already basically used guns to shoot down aliens that looked demonish led by space satan

honestly his own game is very Doom like, destroyed cities, military facilities, weird ass alien comet that looks hellish and gross

theres a level in a volcano that looks like a base in hell

[limber geyser]

Yeah but like one of my concerns is will the Sonic cast survive the apocalypse aka the events of Doom 2

[wintry perch]

very few of them

[radiant snow]

Why are we talking about Sonic in DOOM now what'd I miss

[limber geyser]

This

[wintry perch]

yeah we should be talking about Mario in DOOM instead

seriously tf is the cyber demon gonna do when Mario picks up the star powerup

[twilit heart]

You pretty much missed everything from Doomguy being a Barbie, to emotional exchange to I dunno what it is now.

[wintry perch]

the mega mushroom doe, thats a funny image. The funny ass theme playing while Mario stomps on hordes of Mancubi and Hellknights

[limber geyser]

To Mr. W (me my last name starts with a W) arguing with a friend in a group chat about why I can't fit Doom in my Sonic and Mega Man project

[ebon finch]

Doomguy is the best barbie

[granite tusk]

How you think, Hugo exist in Doom universe as character?

[wintry perch]

He's clearly the creator of Davoth

smh

[twilit heart]

Nah that was a stupid joke.

But he is there. has a pizzeria. has a store in star-whatever mall. is wanted by the sentinels.

But then again Marauder is a wine brand. xD

[wicked turtle]

He’s a time traveler

[twilit heart]

Ohhhh like the Alchemist who traveled time and space to scribble down the feats of the Slayer! So HE wrote the history and the Testament? DUUUH ofc he did lol

[ebon finch]

every sci fi franchise needs a marauder. borderlands, mass effect, starship troopers, star wars, you name it it has a marauder in it

[twilit heart]

No i meant there's a legit "Marauder" wine in Eternal.

[ebon finch]

oh i thought you meant in real life lmao

[twilit heart]

I mean probably irl, its a legit word.

[ebon finch]

marauders be marauding

oooh battlestar galactica has a marauder too

[twilit heart]

Serrat flying sections Century the Age of Ashes has a marauder class.

[glass tundra]

when the doom slayer enters urdak and pases throught the door when the makers are respawning the icon of sith, the instalation voice syas, WELCOME SERAFIN, the doom slayer isn´t called serafin, the makers have an avanced systems, so the detected the doom slayer as serafin, atleast he had a sacerdote head with him

???

[quiet marsh]

I heard some people say it was because he was carrying Samuel with him

And Samuel was the Seraphim

[tired sand]

Yes you're right Slayer isn't Seraphim

Seraphim is the highest rank given to an angel in the order of Seraphs

The Father gave that rank and title to Samur Maykr, his most trusted assistant

Back in the events of DOOM Eternal after Slayer retrieved Samuel Hayden's body, Samuel integrated himself into the system of the Fortress of DOOM and also into Slayer's Praetor suit

Upon entering through the door, into the room where Khan Maykr was preparing to Unleash the Icon of Sin onto Earth, the room noticed Seraphim, i.e.; Samur Maykr's presence rather than the Slayer's

That's why it said "Welcome, Seraphim"

And in case you didn't know

|| Samuel Hayden = Samur Maykr/Seraphim ||

[raw pine]

<@&162901871168585728>

https://tenor.com/view/sheev-palpatine-emperor-chancellor-kill-him-now-gif-14424446

[burnt heron]

Is he dead

[limber geyser]

Why do all the scammers come when I'm not looking

[wicked turtle]

They fear you

[wintry perch]

that's actually fire

[ebon finch]

hey it turns midnight in my time zone in about 40 minutes so Happy New Rip & Tear everybody i love you weird little gremlins

[tired sand]

Love ya too Librorian

[slate kiln]

How high can the doomslayer jump? Like max

[tired sand]

No idea but considering his powers and taking TDA for instance, pretty high yeah

But max? No clue

[native sedge]

Lore wise and the most reasonable answer is, as high as he needs to

With probably no upper limit

[tired sand]

Yeah

Since his powers match his will so pretty crazy levels of high if he wants

[granite tusk]

What do you think, why in The Old One's stomach lived demons?

[winter oxide]

bread crumbs, not even a snack

[tired sand]

Old One gobbled em up when he returned in CR

Appetizers

[twilit heart]

Would be funny if they just spawned and Old One was like - WTF why?! Lemme go back to sleep.

But does that make DG a remedy or an illness?

[granite tusk]

Only Googa Martin knows

[limber geyser]

Perhaps they're being incubated

I don't know haven't gotten that far in Dark Ages yet

[granite tusk]

Early Urdak lore from Emerson's website

[small herald]

Yeah. Always assumed that’s what the art book’s lore was based off of

[dusky haven]

Doomguy is a Toa confirmed

[granite tusk]

And Davoth is a Makuta Teridax?

[dusky haven]

Nah, Davoth is closer to Karzahni

[granite tusk]

Stone imp is a bohrok

[granite tusk]

https://youtu.be/kAx91mkuX9g
“They were there once"
It seems that earth in Doom 3 was invaded before

[tired sand]

Hmm that's interesting

[forest cave]

Possibly a part of the Mars invasion. Doom 3 implies the Martians are proto-humans.

[granite tusk]

Like in Halo 2, Bungie intended that forerunner and humans the same spiecies

In storyboards

[forest cave]

Yes. That carried over to the modern Doom games too, which also imply Sentinels to be the original humans.

Which makes sense, because Sentinels and Martians are likely one and the same.

[winter oxide]

funny that in both cases religion is a result of million years long gartic phone game and is humanity's forgotten past

[granite tusk]

Ahahaha

[forest cave]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1121477880199794698/1457088330670805157/208A5A1.JPG?ex=695abac1&is=69596941&hm=31d0e5c63dab56876230fbaecab9fece7a20b3b4fe7a57b959b8c7ffa29550cf&=&format=webp&width=2162&height=1216

Any of you think you recognize the thing in the back? I feel like I do but can't place the shape.

This.

[granite tusk]

Davoth's castle?

[winter oxide]

holy shit, Ingmore Sanctum

[forest cave]

Ehhhh. It looks sort of like the tower in Immora but I don't think that's it.

[limber geyser]

probably makes more sense than what I was thinking

[limber geyser]

I'm still not sure how to feel about that

[limber geyser]

I was thinking the Maykr interacted with humanity before on Earth

[ebon finch]

Doom lore contradicts itself often enough that I'm content with my own headcanons

[limber geyser]

I guess it's just me wanting either evolution or a creation event involving the Maykr directly to be canon to DOOM because Hell and demons and what not

[winter oxide]

I believe that is a highly unlikely scenario.

[limber geyser]

I mean how else would modern religion exist

we know atleast christianity exists as the Slayer recognizes Hell in episode 2

[winter oxide]

gartic phone - story was retold and changed over the years that it lost its original content but kept the concepts

[royal marten]

sauron

lol jk

[forest cave]

What do we think about this as opposed to without pictures?

I'm thinking of adding renders like this throughout the guide, but I'm not sure if this looks good or just clutters the page.

[winter oxide]

We've got a bastard here

[limber geyser]

I like it I think it will help especially with enemies in later games that I don't know about

[limber geyser]

What happened

I didn't pay attention it looked like a twitter page

[winter oxide]

crypto scam

[limber geyser]

Alright

[ebon finch]

That isn't doom

[small herald]

Wtf

[lapis saffron]

I like it

[lapis saffron]

Teeeechnically

The ArchVile is in Doom 1

[radiant snow]

Where

[lapis saffron]

Marbface.. uhh.. 2 I think

[radiant snow]

Oh yeah, those

Retroactive foreshadowing lol

[limber geyser]

Not sure if there's a different reason but do you know those segments in Doom 4(2016) where the Slayer sees fast moving images with pentagrams a notable one happening when you first equip the Praetor suit

I like to think it's him having some sort of PTSD attack

[lapis saffron]

They should’ve made an archvile be the final boss of TFC and made the arena covered in marbface2 like how people noticed the baron marbface actually usually foreshadows when they’re about to appear in the e1-3 levels

[limber geyser]

Yeah that's a missed opportunity

Especially considering I think they added code for the Doom 2 monsters in 1.4

Since Iirc that's how we are able to play early versions of Doom 2 maps

[dusky haven]

Massive fan. In my palaeontology field guides, depending on how well sampled the taxon is, you’ll often have a skeletal diagram of the dinosaur and then a life restoration. I think including renders in your guide is evocative of that approach; sort of a traveller’s companion to Hell’s fauna

[forest cave]

Alright, nice.

[cerulean vessel]

Are you making a DOOM wiki too?

[forest cave]

I'm updating my guide.

It's in the pinned messages here.

[raw pine]

pose him up

[wicked turtle]

If he does, it's gotta be the summoning pose

[tired sand]

It looks damn good and imo, better than no images complimenting the text. This will definitely add a lot more to your guide

[granite tusk]

The hellwave generator in Lazarus Labs has grafted summoner's body.

[tired sand]

Didn't notice that till now

So the generator uses a summoner to generate the energy

[granite tusk]

Possibly

It even makes sense

[tired sand]

It reminds me of the Immoran structures in the concepts

[pallid marsh]

wow that concept art is fire is that immora

[tired sand]

Yeah Immora

[granite tusk]

Redmmora

[winter oxide]

Immora but cool

[tired sand]

Immora but not recycled Urdak

[split violet]

I have a question about eternal. What happened to that earth's doomguy? Like all the skins etc are different doomguys because of the multiverse understanding and doomslayer is from '93 doom's earth, shouldn't there be a doomguy from eternal earth as well?

[dusky haven]

Immora but an actual city

[tired sand]

The term "Doomguy" is a title given to an individual who stands up against Hell and also always happens to be a marine

Slayer is the Doomguy from the Classic Earthly Realm

DOOM 3 marine is also another Doomguy

Same goes for the marine in the rpg games

[split violet]

Bro I'm asking what happened to doomguy from eternal's earth, does it not have one?

[tired sand]

Now the Modern Earthly Realm hasn't shown or told us about the marine who has or had stood up against Hell

[split violet]

Hmm ok

[tired sand]

Also there is likely none

Since the demonic invasion in DOOM 2016 was the first to occur in the modern earthly realm

[split violet]

So there are earths without doomguys? Wouldn't they just lose to hell?

[tired sand]

And The Slayer was there to neutralize the threat

Meaning Modern Earthly Realm had no Doomguy from the beginning

[tired sand]

It's a vast universe so yeah

[split violet]

My headcannon is that the slayer was meant to be at the right place at the right time ie. 2016's solar system so God straight up optimised it and didn't give eternal earth a doomguy 💀

[tired sand]

Most of the time yeah but cuz of weird stuff happening all of the time

[twilit heart]

We're all Doomguy.

[tired sand]

But if there weren't the Slayer for Modern Earthly Realm... It would've been interesting

[split violet]

Any updates on the comic that was supposed to explain the lore between 2016 and eternal's time frame, been out of it for a while?

[tired sand]

That's what I said, it's a title, not a character

Just like anyone can be Batman or Soldier Boy from The Boys

[twilit heart]

That's why we don't need too much of "Doomguy/Slayer" characterisation. Some bits yeah. For the hungry. But not an open book.

[tired sand]

Nah no updates

[twilit heart]

Some might argue that Batman is and always will be Bruce Wayne. "The only true Batman".

[tired sand]

It's simple. Doomguy is a title, Slayer is the prime Doomguy

[tired sand]

Yeah ik

Also there's a reason for saying The Slayer not only Slayer

[dusky haven]

There is only one Doomguy. The fellas from DOOM 3 don’t count

[twilit heart]

I'd disagree. If Classic Doomguy is the archetype, then Slayer is a continuation of this. Like, an evolution. What do you do when you reach the max as Doomguy? You become Doom Slayer... Still tho I think this title is also stupid because what does it mean "doom slayer".

[tired sand]

Eh that buds a Doom Marine

[twilit heart]

But bottomline is that it's the same archetype to me. If I am the Doomguy in the classics/Doom3. I am the Doom Slayer too. Simple as that.

I cannot differentiate the two because they are proven to be one and the same in Eternal.

[tired sand]

Yes

I think "Doomguy" being a title rather than a singular character does mostly clear up the mess made by the classics and rpgs

As in DOOM RPG it's stated that the Marine is the same Doomguy from Classic DOOM and DOOM 3

Which is weird

[twilit heart]

One Doomed Space Marine. xD

[tired sand]

Yeah lmao

It's funny how classics didn't have a fully thought out story and yet they're, in some ways, more complex than the modern games

[twilit heart]

I liked that tho. I have things against the stories in games like Doom. I couldve played it endlessly like that, cuz I wanna play a game, not watch a movie, and when I play a story driven game, Id pick an RPG. BUT, I understand and agree that we need some carefuly tailored story bits for the new generations of fans. Which is totally okay with me, as long as it doesn't interfere with "I am Doomguy/Slayer" (even tho Im 5'6 and a girl).

[tired sand]

That's literally the whole thing of DOOM

To make the player feel powerful so I wouldn't worry much lol

[twilit heart]

That's how I deal with my real life problems. "Im a Doomguy I can do it"

And no, not with shotgun god forbid that would blow me to bits.

[tired sand]

I think TDA does that even better with all facing Cthulhu and killing him twice

[tired sand]

Kekw

[twilit heart]

I met soooo many people that can literally say "Doom pulled me out of the gutter". Like, I'm talking LIVES CHANGED for the better. And it made my heart full. And I've been around since the 90s. So good to see your favorite francise doing good for people all over the world.

And now I'm all emotional again. Ffs.

[tired sand]

Average Doom experience

[radiant snow]

I like NuDOOM's take on making the player feel like a tank with legs, but I can honestly also say I really liked DOOM 3's attempt at making the forces of Hell clearly overpower you. It made it all the more satisfying to come out alive

[tired sand]

There's no bad Doom game and each one lets you experience the power fantasy

[radiant snow]

Yesss during most of the experience you feel like you're barely scraping by but in the end you realize you very clearly won

[twilit heart]

I liked Doom3. Back in the day it was a different experience, but really put me into a perspective. Like DAYUM those demons aren't 'cute little sprites' I remember. Tho i did crack laughing at the RoE intro. That guy that obliterated his team by touching the artefact? That's my spiritual animal right there.

[tired sand]

Yeah RoE was something

I tried quick swapping in D3 and oh god no

[twilit heart]

I still have to go through Phobos Anomaly tho. IF that's how it's called. But rn im burnt with all these new games, thanks to TDA, and I'm playing indi shit or just watching movies. Speaking of which - dont go watching new Red Sonja. It's absolute trash and I say that as a SOLID Sonja fan.

[tired sand]

I forgot how ass the sg is at times

I died miserably

[tired sand]

Noted

[twilit heart]

First time I played D3 was without mounted flashlight. Now THAT's an experiance.

Lot of funny moments there to remember. Also game made me jump at the sight of ATMs outside cuz they looked like health stations.

[tired sand]

I too played the vanilla D3. I'll replay it sometime soon

[radiant snow]

I'm yet to play it. Only played BFG. I'll grab the original for my 360 sometime

[twilit heart]

Doesnt Steam BFG version give an option for the original? I dunno I cant remember. And I didn't try, honestly.

[tired sand]

Vanilla is great for the scares and tension

[tired sand]

I don't think so

[radiant snow]

Yeah as of 2022 if you buy one you get the other free. Also applies to past purchases

[tired sand]

Ahh I see

[twilit heart]

Ye I can confirm, I have both in my lib.

I also remember I got "eternal goodies" from this purchase, but I had to write to the support.

[tired sand]

Coolio

I'll be replaying Routine a bit

It's a good game but the story is quite vague and left super open for fan interpretation

Could've been a great eldritch horror storyline for future installments tbh but I do love the implications of Birth and Rebirth

[twilit heart]

MY FAVORITE. I love vague shit. I was suggested I tried Routine, but I'm waiting for my "game bone" to heal, cuz rn I really dgaf about games as much.

[tired sand]

Yeah that's fair

[twilit heart]

Have you tried Still Wakes The Deep? It's like Thing meets Lovecraft... even tho Thing is highly on cosmic horror anyway.

[tired sand]

The Thing is peak

And yeah I've played Still Wakes The Deep and it's DLC too