the-codex

[primal phoenix]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExczZlenNhZmsyZGh2NTh4dGh1bHFvcDRuODY1MGN4ZGVrbDVnMW54cyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/aDUmxC0OstkVbiloQg/giphy.gif

Lesgo

[small herald]

“It was perfect… everything”

[primal phoenix]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/832527551154094150/1428513543640186900/lv_0_202510161840481.gif

[gentle umbra]

Finally having a lore channel is exciting, and the mod team has given me some sparse permissions to manage messages in here to keep discussion high quality and not devolving into awful shit posting like last time.
It's about 2 AM for me so I'll pass out now, but I'm excited to use this channel and see how it goes.

[gleaming rover]

One more thing: You are also allowed to manage pinned messages.
Go nuts.

[primal phoenix]

Whaaat

[small herald]

Your work is done, you may rest

[primal phoenix]

I’m excited aswell

[gentle umbra]

Very appreciated - will use this to pin resources and high quality videos/pages people can refer to for sources.

Tomorrow I'll get around to posting some of my own.

For now I'll leave this.

[gleaming rover]

That was a Tumblr link

One moment

[gentle umbra]

Ah, shit. Forgot the link restrictions. My bad.

[gleaming rover]

Should work now. Try again.

[gentle umbra]

https://www.tumblr.com/m0nology/800325440620429312/absolute-doom-the-ultimate-guide-to-the-doom

ABSOLUTE DOOM is a comprehensive guide to the modern Doom canon written by me. It is ~300 pages and includes an in-depth timeline, as well as exhaustive sections on every faction, monster, character, location, and artifact in the canon.

This Tumblr link will always include the most recent version; ABSOLUTE DOOM is updated semi-frequently with new theories, and given major updates as new installments release.

THIS ISN'T A PUNISHMENT.

ABSOLUTE DOOM: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE TO THE DOOM UNIVERSE

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bGGNABAHe_lgpr-frwEMn6gGw81BQJqM/view?usp=sharing

It's finally finished! I made this guide a long time ago, but it's finally been revised and updated to include content from Doom: The Dark Ages....

Tumblr · Nov 15, 2025, 11:36 PM

There we go, awesome.

[gleaming rover]

nice

[primal phoenix]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcGxqc2c3c2E0ZjA0dGc3d3gwb3NtbGNscml2YXlnYTRldjVlYTBmZiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/vrGuBoIYhOdppsJrK4/giphy.gif

[gleaming rover]

i will have a close eye on this channel.
not because of malicious intent or something but because i want this place to be of very very high quality for everyone.

[primal phoenix]

Understandaple

[gentle umbra]

Thanks for the help.

I'm gonna crash out now, but this is exciting. I'll let you or a mod know if I have any concerns or if something should be done beyond what I can do.

The occasional funny picture might be fine I guess, but I am hoping for this channel to have the most high quality discussion we can get in the server.

[dusky haven]

Bro, this is tight as fuck. Well done mono

[royal marten]

🔥

[raw pine]

finally

[daring scaffold]

cinema

[sage shore]

No funny business this time or you get the hose

[oak ember]

so if im understanding this right this is a lore discussion channel?

[primal phoenix]

Yeah doom lore

[oak ember]

siick

[primal phoenix]

If I may ask?

Did he do something already or?

[deft echo]

Well well
doom lore channel
time for me to download doom 3 again

[sage shore]

The collective “you” we had a lore channel years ago that was just carnage

[primal phoenix]

Oh I did not know that

[lapis saffron]

doom lore: everything ive said about doom lore is the correct interpretation sorry

[primal phoenix]

Welp 👍

[lapis saffron]

anyway awesome we have a channel for this

[long ridge]

Peak!

[dusky haven]

It would be cool to have FAQs pinned to the channel

[tired sand]

Holy moly lore channel

[royal marten]

the whole channel was created for this haha

[radiant snow]

Can't wait (not actually of course) to see the inevitable first argument here occur

[winter oxide]

Sometimes i wonder just how far ahead exactly they thought with story, Cosmic Realm kinda reminds me of these old 2016 concept arts

And green clouds with lightning also did in fact appear in 2016 as well, which are present throughout Eternal and are also visible near cosmic realm portals in Dark Ages

[wind glade]

they thought actually very far

The doom 2016 codex actually has a surprising amount of information regarding the night sentinels

Also the name night sentinels is Hella tuff

[dusky haven]

Right, but then once all the newcomers can move past the surface level stuff, we can get into the cool, theory-crafting stuff

[lapis saffron]

hey anomeq do you think sigil happened

[lapis saffron]

i don't think they had the cosmic realm in mind at the time of 2016 but by the time of eternal and definitely by the time of tag they knew

[brazen swallow]

Saved y'all the loops

[fair pike]

didn't expect a new doom bible fan release but its a welcome surprise

[gentle umbra]

I wrote a set of these forever ago but I never updated them for TDA.

[gentle umbra]

The way the Doom Eternal Lorebook phrases the Maykrs implies to me they had the Davoth twist planned before the base game released.

For in purity, there lurks corruption. In the virtuous, the snake of deceit whips a forked tongue. Let them praise their false gods, and croon under their anemic overlords. When the day of reckoning comes, we shall take their idols and turn them to our fettle. Even as the kin of the Abhorrent One worship their divinity, we wait, seething, devising our infernal intrigue. Then, they shall know the true meaning of godly power. They shall see that the false gods of the light-dwellers are but parasites on the tail of the Dark One.

[winter oxide]

definitely seems like foreshadowing

[stiff ember]

#eternal-lore IS BACK!!!!

[gentle umbra]

To commemorate finally being able to post images, here's my latest Doom 1993 Codex mockup.

Should be done with these today, probably.

[gentle umbra]

I'm not gonna go full Redditor or whatever and act like I have a bunch of authority because I was given permissions in a Discord server, but I do want to outline my personal intent that this channel be not just for lore discussion, but also welcoming of fan content surrounding Doom's lore and universe as long as it is high quality.
I think it'd be appropriate for example to post things like writing focused on the Doom canon, or asking for feedback on a Doom lore project, much like what I'm doing.

Really I just want a place to discuss the non-gameplay side of Doom with people who know what they are talking about.

[radiant snow]

I don't know shit about the lore

[ebon finch]

Ooh. The triumpant return of #eternal-lore

[lapis saffron]

well dang i wanted to be the first argument starter

[gentle umbra]

Well, this actually brings me to something I need to do, which is make another FAQ. So to you and anyone else who don't know much about the lore, but might want to: What are some questions you'd have that would help you understand things easier?

Anyone else can ask this. Even if you know the answer already. What are questions you see asked often that are convenient for people to know when engaging in this topic?

I will collect FAQs into a document and that can be the next pinned message.

[radiant snow]

I think the single biggest question is which campaigns are canon

[lapis saffron]

ill take this one

[radiant snow]

Is Isabelle canon

[gentle umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/silent-hill-silent-hill2-james-sunderland-sad-depressed-gif-27628054

[lapis saffron]

they all are🙋‍♀️ 🙋‍♀️ 🙋‍♀️ they all are

[lapis saffron]

is threatening another user allowed in this channel @gentle umbra

[ebon finch]

if the threat recipient is me, yes

[gentle umbra]

On the topic of Isabelle it is in fact mandatory to threaten the user.

[radiant snow]

Are Doomguy and Isabelle married real? Did Slayer kill titan with own hand? He use weapon for funs?

[lapis saffron]

dude if anyone else used a shotgun the bullets just bounce off the demons cause they don't hold it right

[gentle umbra]

A very good one.

My TLDR answer to the canon question in the FAQ would be "The classic games have a tenuous canon thanks to a lack of continuity in the older titles. At the very least, the entire mainline series of Doom, as in every numbered entry, is canon; classic expansions like NRFTL or Legacy of Rust are in a grey area but can be considered canon if you want. Other entries, like the Doom RPG games or mobile spinoffs, reference mainline games but have not themselves been confirmed canon by the mainline games."

[lapis saffron]

actually resurrection (mobile doom 3 spinoff) was confirmed canon to doom 3 by carmack and mustaine in an interview

[gentle umbra]

TLDR: The mainline series is canon. Expansions might be canon. Spinoffs might be canon. But we don't know for sure because the devs don't talk about it.

[radiant snow]

That last part caused a bloody brawl between me and Greasy oh so long ago

I think another important question is which protagonists are the same person as Doomguy

[lapis saffron]

which then makes the rpgs to doom 3 what doom 3 is to the main continuity :P

[lapis saffron]

wdym by this exactly

[gentle umbra]

Well, see, the issue here is that technically we are operating on multiple canons. Whenever we discuss canon, for most series it's just one creative vision for the whole franchise.

Take, say, FNAF. When people ask what's canon in FNAF, they can at least work under the assumption that everything in FNAF is Scott Cawthon's creative direction. But here, we kinda sorta have two. We know the classics are relevant to the modern games, but does the modern canon give a shit about the obscure classic stuff, or only the most important classic stuff?

John Romero's view of the Doom canon and Hugo Martin's view are two different things.

[radiant snow]

I often see questions like "do we play as doomguy in doom 3?"

[lapis saffron]

Well if something was stated by the owner of the franchise at the time to be canon, surely that would be the case until otherwise contradicted by the current owner, no?

[radiant snow]

I think having a masterlist of confirmed Doomguy protagonist roles would help

[lapis saffron]

Doomguy in Doom 3 is not the EXACT Doomguy from 1-64 onward but it is an alternate universe version of the same guy

[gentle umbra]

Well yes. Doom Resurrection is indisputably canon to Doom 3. But is it canon to the modern games as well? I think that's where things get confusing.

Under a modern canon perspective, I think the relevance of titles like Doom Resurrection is more questionable because we don't even know how much they care about Doom 3 itself, much less spinoffs.

[radiant snow]

That's what I mean, a list of which games star OUR Doomguy (and are canon so no Quake III business)

[ebon finch]

I used to make the argument that the best way to look at the old games was that DOOM 3 was a prequel to 1993 DOOM. Which is a little bit messy, and there are some contradictions that arise there, but it does allow one protagonist for the whole series

[lapis saffron]

well yeah i mean i was operating under the understanding that you consider doom 3 main continuity

[gentle umbra]

Oh I do, for sure. This all is more just theory stuff.

Another example is the Blazko thing. John Romero says Doomguy is a descendant of BJ Blazkowicz, and you can argue that is somewhat "canon" for the classic games. But is it canon that the Slayer is a descendant of BJ Blazkowicz?
You can make the argument that the modern games only incorporate the classic stuff with a very broad paintbrush, and thus these very specific details may be lost in translation.

[lapis saffron]

the actual continuity is like

confirmed canon: Doom 1993, Doom 2, Doom 64, Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, The Dark Ages
dubiously/likely canon: No Rest For The Living, Doom 3, Doom Resurrection, Legacy of Rust
dubiously canon to dubiously canon stuff: Doom RPG, Doom II RPG
you decide: Final Doom, Master Levels
sigils (idfk): sigil, sigil ii, hellion

[gentle umbra]

After all, John Carmack said Doomguy was a virgin, and the Slayer certainly isn't.

[lapis saffron]

pretty sure that is a faked quote

[gentle umbra]

This is a good way to word it.

[gentle umbra]

Oh, is it? I hope so. It's a dumb quote.

[radiant snow]

I think this would be cool if not for 64's PTSD storyline. It taking him this long to lose his shit, and the fact he'd continuously work for UAC despite what happened, would not be very believable. But then again shit like LoR also does this

[lapis saffron]

yeah the "doomguy doesnt know what sex is/is a virgin" was a fake pcgamer magazine quote someone made and is now just accepted as fact despite it literally not being in a single pcgamer magazine

[gentle umbra]

I personally reject this idea because of a few different details in Doom 3. It's a fine headcanon if people ike it, and I don't judge anyone for it, but I personally do not believe it makes sense.

[lapis saffron]

it's like shoot the cyberdemon till it dies

[gentle umbra]

HydroCon alone is like. "Wait, what?"

[gentle umbra]

Well, I like to think in Doom 64, Doomguy's position is less "I'm working for the UAC, stopping this one last time..." and more "I am the only person to survive all this. They're forcibly shipping me off to Mars to stop this. I have nothing left."

[lapis saffron]

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/138098-laying-the-myths-and-misconceptions-to-rest/ @gentle umbra

[gentle umbra]

Keep in mind, Doomguy is never actually employed with the UAC in the original games. The relationship between the UAC and the eponymous marines is different in the classics compared to Doom 3 and the modern games.

[ebon finch]

I'm prepared to accept a few "unbelievable" things about mental health in a game about demon slaying :p

but also, did he work for the UAC? He just kinda got sent there

[gentle umbra]

That is to say, in Doom 3 and the modern games, the UAC has their own force of "space marines." In the classics, Doomguy is a US Marine, working with the US military, which is contracting the UAC to develop Gateway tech on Mars.

To my knowledge the UAC isn't even a functioning corporate entity in Doom 64, and likely not Doom II either.

[lapis saffron]

uac is basically nothing after doom 2 and it is basically completely restructured during final doom and after legacy of rust they're just fucked and probably disbanded

if i had to gather a rough timeline from the manuals/end screens

[radiant snow]

Idk I barely know anything about the lore like I said. That PTSD stuff still stands

[gentle umbra]

For me I like to see the classic canon as solely Doom 1, 2, and 64. Adding other stuff makes it messy and throws a major caveat of Doom 2's story into question, which is that humanity was nearly rendered extinct.

[lapis saffron]

i dont really think so

final doom's manual still makes it clear the uac got fucking decimated and basically wiped out and most of the people working there are new

Though all the top management of the UAC were dead, and so were most of their personnel down to the janitors

[gentle umbra]

Something to keep in mind is that Doom 2016-Eternal are what solidified Doom 64 as a mainline entry in the series. For years it was generally understood to be a side entry because it was developed by Midway Games.

With this in mind, Doom 64's manual never actually explicitly refers to the events of any Doom game. It just says "The classified episodes codenamed DOOM were never completed." Doom 64 is a rough sequel to the basic idea that Doomguy fought the demons before, but it never mentions Doom II for example.

In fact some early marketing stuff in gaming magazines IIRC framed Doom 64 as a sequel to SNES Doom specifically, making it part of a continuity where Doom II never happened.

So Doom 64's story is written with a level of vagueness that makes it able to be placed after any combination of the classic Doom stories. It was never even clear if the series considered it canon until the Slayer stuff.

[lapis saffron]

it's only canon because hugo likes it lol

[gentle umbra]

Yeah basically.

Which is fair. Doom 64 rocks.

[lapis saffron]

someone get hugo to play lor and the rpgs stat

[gentle umbra]

Hoovy I don't know if you saw this but I do want to eventually make a Doom mod to include that Codex stuff and I would likely want to slightly revise the text to make the story fit in a bit more with the wider canon. I wish I could do this with LoR.

I loooove LoR. I would make it mega-canon if I could.

[lapis saffron]

i honestly think current lor improves canon even without edits

explains why the uac is a non entity at the time of 64 and it writes itself in and out of canon p neatly

i'd love for the nukes to be more related to 64 tho..,,

[lapis saffron]

id love to see codex entries for the lor monsters

[gentle umbra]

I think I will do this.

Current idea is to cover Doom 1, 2, and 64 entirely. Maybe LoR monsters as a bonus.

[lapis saffron]

are you doing weapon codexes

[gentle umbra]

Yes, finished those for Doom 1. Will post in a sec.

[lapis saffron]

well u GOTTA do lor weapons too surely

you can have a lot of fun with the calamity blade codex given it's meant to be the ballista

[gentle umbra]

Oh man. Too many attachments? Fuck you VEGA.

Okay, here's the 7 weapons in Doom 1993.

[lapis saffron]

i like the bfg one

[gentle umbra]

Thanks. I'm having a lot of fun with these.

I expect to have around 37-40 for Doom 1.

MONSTERS: 10
LOCATIONS: 14 (might add 2 more for Episode 4)
WEAPONS: 7
STORY: 5-6

[radiant snow]

Episodes codenamed DOOM?

[gentle umbra]

Yeah, that's how the manual words it. Hang on.

[radiant snow]

What even are they meant to be

[lapis saffron]

i actually think they probably mean Doom PSX there

given it's the same team iirc

[gentle umbra]

The Present...

A long forgotten relay satellite barely executing, decayed by years of bombarding neutrons, activates and sends its final message to Earth. The satellites message was horrific, from the planetary void there came energy signatures unlike anything sampled before.

The classified archives are opened. The military episodes code named "DOOM" were not actually completed. A single entity with vast rejuvenation powers, masked by the extreme radiation levels, escaped detection. In its crippled state, it systematically altered decaying dead carnage back into corrupted living tissue.

The mutations are devastating. The Demons have returned even stronger and more vicious than before. As the only experienced survivor of the DOOM episode, your commission is re-activated. Your assignment is clear: MERCILESS EXTERMINATION.

"The military episodes codenamed DOOM" is meant to be a vague term referring to Hell's invasions prior to Doom 1993. Generally most fans take this to mean, nowadays, Doom 1993 and Doom II.

(An aside: I'm iffy on this one. Might cut it?)

[gentle umbra]

Also this is just Doom 1, 2, 64, 2016, Eternal, TDA. Doom 3 is definitely not him.

[radiant snow]

Final? I see discourse around that somehow

[gentle umbra]

Okay, well... under this, it gets more complicated. The list I gave is just, "what are the Slayer's confirmed adventures?"

If we ignore the modern games and look solely at the originals, this becomes a lot more unclear and there have been conversations for a while arguing not even Doom II and Doom 1993's protagonists were the same.

Keep in mind that while we have the same face in the HUD between both games, the guy himself looks very different between Thy Flesh Consumed's end art and Doom II's cover art.

(And Doom II's manual explicitly contradicts how Doomguy got to Earth in the original game.)

You gotta understand, the classic games weren't written with continuity in mind. In the guide I compare them to Saturday morning cartoons. The events of past games happened, but the status quo comes back for the newest episode. So there's a vague idea of Doomguy, the guy you control, but when you apply that to explicit continuity things get hairy.

The modern games gave us a way to tie up the classic stuff into one story, by focusing on mainline stuff and worrying about what is canon to the Slayer. But if you ignore the modern shit, Doom's canon is more a hodge-podge of vague stories.

[radiant snow]

So it's Family Guy

[gentle umbra]

Unironically yes. Or The Simpsons.

[radiant snow]

Off-topic but one of my favorite DOOMcordian quotes is "Your not peter griffin bruh take the L and move on", what a beautiful community we have

[gentle umbra]

When we get to the classic canon shit I feel like the Doctor explaining time in Doctor Who:

“People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.”
Unironically it's kinda like this.

Classic Doom continuity is less a strict timeline and more a big ball of vague stories involving Hell getting its ass kicked by one dude with a block for a head.

[radiant snow]

Bizarre franchise

[gentle umbra]

God I wish I knew the context.

[radiant snow]

This was a whole DOOM II development time's worth ago, so my memory is fuzzy, but I think I remember somebody was acting up and upon getting threatened with a ban, started going rabid

[gentle umbra]

Well, consider that most games were written like this back then. Doom took place in Doom Land where the UAC is perpetually stupid and keeps fucking with Hell. Just like Duke Nukem Land, where aliens keep invading Earth and getting their shit kicked in by Duke and his roided-out muscles. Or Blood Land, where a mysterious cabal is both super secret yet also rules the world or whatever and Caleb is kicking their ass.

It's why when these old franchises come back, it's usually with a completely rebooted continuity.

Doom is unique in this sense by not completely wiping the slate clean and offering a way to reconcile the old with the new.

[radiant snow]

Wolfenstein 3D: Spear of Destiny having its events happen thrice in the classic continuity is one of my favorite examples of shitty writing

[gentle umbra]

Hahaha yeah.

This is just how things were until Half-Life came around and changed how everyone saw narratives in games like FPSes.

[radiant snow]

That Carmack quote...

[gentle umbra]

A fun fact is that even Carmack himself took this back years later. He himself admitted he was wrong.

[radiant snow]

He can say some stupid shit. His Twitter recently got probably the dumbest thing he's ever written

[gentle umbra]

People take it out of context and take it to mean a wider statement on games themselves. But Carmack's view on stories at the time was painted by technological constraints. They fired one of id's founders for trying to put too much story in Doom.

I don't know if you knew that, but that's a thing and it was really interesting.

[radiant snow]

Hall?

[gentle umbra]

Yeah.

[radiant snow]

I am a crazy nerd for stuff like this so I am well aware. The alleged Willits vs McGee stuff is hilarious but also kind of worrying at the same time lol

[gentle umbra]

Tom Hall's ideas for Doom, as he outlined in the Doom Bible, were a huge six-episode epic with like six different playable characters and a whole narrative with characters dying at the end of each episode and shit. It was very involved, too involved, and you'll notice when you play maps that he made, they tend to focus more on resembling real locations than say, Romero's.

The story paints a harsh picture of Hall's fellow co-founders, but if he'd gotten what he wanted Doom would've been dead on arrival. His wishes would've made the game much harder to make. id was straining against the fucking laws of physics to make this revolutionary game run on computers not even meant to play games. Carmack was folding the fabric of space and time to get computers to render Doom maps.

And Tom Hall wants six playable characters, six episodes, whole scripted sequences and NPC characters? No fucking way. That is why Carmack said stories don't matter in games.

[radiant snow]

Never played it in any way so I'm not sure if this is right, but isn't Strife kind of like a spiritual successor to his concepts? I know Rise of the Triad is one for sure

[lapis saffron]

Final is meant to be the same guy as Doom + Doom II

[gentle umbra]

Not sure on Strife, but ROTT definitely has that stuff.

[lapis saffron]

The manual says he got promoted to Captain after Doom II's events

[gentle umbra]

He didn't even need to take this back either, because he directed Doom 3 and Doom 3 was very plot-heavy.

[radiant snow]

A promotion for saving humanity 💔

They should've labeled him king of kings

[gentle umbra]

People always ignore this! Doom 3 has a fucking novel's worth of story text and lore in the PDAs and audio logs. And John Carmack directed it. Carmack didn't have anything against stories, once the tech was there he was happy to have it. What he cared about most was immersion, he wanted Doom 3 to be very immersive and that means having people saying things, a series of events, a history to the UAC.

[lapis saffron]

This obviously doesn’t count because it was cut from Final Doom but

While TNT outright says you’re the same Doomguy and Plutonia implies it

Had Perdition’s Gate been ready in time, that one does star a Cadet who isn’t Doomguy

PerdGate also has an explicit timeframe being 4 years after Doom II

[radiant snow]

I never held that quote against him, I just like bringing it up for how poorly it aged and also because of that SoD shit I mentioned

DOOM games slowly got more and more story and now they had to backtrack with TDA because Eternal was this incoherent glob of lore

[gentle umbra]

Oh yeah I don't blame him. I blame people trying to use it as evidence the modern games shouldn't have story.

[gentle umbra]

IMO the issue is less with the amount of story and more on its focus.

[radiant snow]

Ehhh I also think that they went a bit wild with the amount. In Sentinel Prime I was actually really interested in reading all the codexes during my playthrough, but then I went through the level and picked up like 12 million of these super long pages and it killed my interest immediately

Not to sound like I'm some sort of infant that hates to read... but I am an infant that hates to read. I want these stories shown, not told

[gentle umbra]

Well, yes, the amount in a textual format. I moreso mean, like, I don't think Eternal introduced too much lore or plot. Moreso that it tells it in an overly-contrived and really wordy way.

I've given this a lot of thought and I think I know for sure where Eternal's storytelling went wrong. It's in the logical assumption that they very likely have different people writing Codexes VS cutscenes/dialogue, and because Eternal has half the fucking story in the Codex there are more contradictions and weird BS than normal.

In 2016 and TDA the Codex is supplementary, it's there to give you neat backstory for the UAC, Hell, and various little things. That's it. In Eternal Codex files are filling in for cutscenes.

If you play Eternal, and you read every Codex file the moment you find it, you can understand how the story works. Codex files are being placed where they are to give you info cutscenes should be telling you stuff. Many of the people confused by Eternal's story understandably assumed the Codex was just neat BS again, so they missed really critical stuff like what the Maykrs have to do with the Sentinels, how the Earth invasion even started, what Life Spheres are, etc....

[gentle umbra]

Listen, I think many would assume I would mock you for not wanting to read. But Doom is not a series that should require this. I love the lore a lot and I think Doom should have as much lore as it wants. But I do think that a Doom game requiring you to study a fuckton of text like you're trying to write a thesis is stupid, and it's stupid to expect that every Doom fan will drop your super fun gameplay/combat loop so they can keep reading fucking Codex pages.

The Dark Ages handles this so much better. You can get the story without having to go to the Codex, for the most part.

[radiant snow]

Hearing Samuel describe the process of demonification in Nekravol is one of my favorite parts of the game. If I just read this in a few codex files I don't think I'd have the same kick out of it. Hopefully they intend to cover more of what the codex says like in TDA, because on casual replays, I would never stop to read all the codex files. For Eternal that would bloat the playtime length and I imagine it wouldn't be by a small amount

[radiant snow]

Oh yeah I fully know you're too cool to make fun of anyone for stuff like this. DOOM is just a series with a really cool plot that I can't be bothered to experience all of because it's scattered across a crazy amount of text. When I got to the resistance base in TNO I also didn't read anything there because it's a crazy amount of info; but at least there it's mostly just background info. Like you said, for Eternal there's pretty big story elements there, and since I think the story is interesting I can't criticise the story, I definitely dislike the storytelling. TDA having all the cool plot shit happen during the gameplay itself was awesome and I hope they keep telling stories like that

[lapis saffron]

Idea

• get rid of the codex
• make Eternal’s episodes leave the files and get used in game
• at the end of each episode there’s a text screen like classic doom but it’s just every single codex page that used to be in that episode in one long block

[radiant snow]

I don't think that'd really help :p

[gentle umbra]

The text screen:

[gentle umbra]

Eternal has a big divide there for me. I adore the story itself and kinda can't stand how the story is told.

[radiant snow]

RAGE did storytelling well even if some people find its story to be bad. Every single possible story detail that matters is told to you during gameplay, and you experience most of the events yourself, so there's no confusion whatsoever. Then in Eternal most of the important stuff is hidden away in text and you never really get to experience any of it :p

[ebon finch]

Wow that's so funny. I feel exactly the opposite. Doom Eternal feels to me a lot like H:L2 where you can play the whole game and barely understand what the story is, but if you look at the details there's so much going on. The first time I played Eternal I was so focused on shooting demons I didn't even notice the giant mechs for the most part.

TDA... this may be a hot take but I think the lore was the weakest element of a generally weak game. I admire id for doing something new and different but that one felt like a swing and a miss

[radiant snow]

What's H:L2? And I also didn't notice any background lore when I first played through Eternal. I can't agree about TDA though, I think the story is one of the best parts of the game and it has actual story you get to experience and not just read about

[ebon finch]

Half Life

[radiant snow]

Ahhh yeah Half-Life 2 is a big timeskip so the story presented is mostly alien to you. Though I actually don't particularily like it

[ebon finch]

I enjoy the kind of... I guess the best word is freedom of it? You, the player, are free to read deeply into the text or just shoot a buncha fascists

[gentle umbra]

The lore in TDA is weaker, but the story itself is a cut above the rest of the series.

And personally I'm okay with this trade-off. Moments like Serrat's death are more impactful to me than just telling me in text that someone died or whatever.

[ebon finch]

who is serrat

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-doom-the-dark-ages-dragon-serrat-fire-breath-gif-3083633057499487976

our beloved

[ebon finch]

The dragon died?? This was in the game? I have no memory of this

[raw pine]

he gets killed by ahzrak??

[ebon finch]

Wow I super don't remember that happening

[gentle umbra]

Before the third phase of the Enhanced Ahzrak fight. Ahzrak impales Doomguy, Serrat comes to defend him, and Ahzrak kills Serrat with a spear to the neck. Doomguy sees this and finds the strength to get up, so he kicks Ahzrak's ass.

[ebon finch]

That's true of much of the game now that I think of it. i saw a youtube essay about the lady who gets magic powers or whatever and I was like "Wait... who was that again?" and then it was Novik's daughter or smth

[radiant snow]

The fact Thira is a chosen one is my only complaint about the story

[gentle umbra]

I can't say I mind it yet. I'm not sure how I feel until I know if the DLC will expand on it.

[ebon finch]

One thing I DO remember is in like, the first or second level where you start killing titans without the Special Tool Needed To Kill Titans, or you go to the Lost City of Hebeth which was "before your time with the sentinels" and thinking "So wait, all of Eternal is just wrong?"

[gentle umbra]

Well the Hebeth thing actually makes sense.

We don't go to the Lost City. We go to Hebeth, the planet, which Earth later calls Mars.

The Lost City of Hebeth wasn't a lost city named Hebeth. It was a lost city on the planet of Hebeth. It's not related to TDA's events.

[ebon finch]

Was that explained in the codex? I don't remember that

[radiant snow]

You don't need the crucible to actually kill them I'm pretty sure

[ebon finch]

Sure, after they retconned it

"If the crucible blade is removed, the titan will rise again" was pretty clear

[radiant snow]

Well yeah because then it'd be free of stasis. The blade paralyzes them

[small herald]

Actually it was retconned in TDA to my understanding. Eternal states that Hebeth the name of the city: “among those cities lost in the crusades of Sentinel past was Hebeth”

I don’t mind the retcon, in glad we have an excuse to explore more of it in TDA. It’s just a bit of a codex plothole

But the place in Eternal is more than likely a different specific place, which is why Samuel states it was “before your time”

[gentle umbra]

It's definitely a retcon, yeah.

[gentle umbra]

TBF, even in 2016 we knew a Crucible wasn't needed to kill a Titan because Doom 2016 showed us the skeletal corpse of a giant Titan and no Crucible keeping it in place.

[small herald]

I don’t mind minor plotholes and retcons. I mean, they stick out like a sore thumb in the codexes themselves, but they work in the big picture

[small herald]

Prime example of a soft plothole with a solid explanation of you don’t follow the codex word for word

[gentle umbra]

Generally speaking the minor shit like Hebeth doesn't bother me.

[small herald]

If it takes us to cool places and is a good enough excuse, I’ll take it

[gentle umbra]

The Crucible/Titan thing in Eternal does bother me, because it's a stupid thing to begin with and they should've just said "only the Crucible can kill the Icon of Sin" rather than trying to say this is for every Titan. When we literally see dead fucking Titans in Doom Eternal that were impaled by Atlan weapons.

[small herald]

People tried to say that the atlan weapons have the same energy, but the codex still goes against that. On top of that, some titans weren’t even impaled, just random corpses

[gentle umbra]

If you want an explicit retcon where you straight up half to ignore something to make it work, Hayden contradicts the fuck out of Sentinel history in Taras Nabad.

And TDA's intro also contradicts Sentinel history, but it's vague wording we can write off. Hayden outright says falsehoods in Taras Nabad.

[small herald]

The codex for eternal makes it worse, stating “only the crucible is strong enough to slay titan class demons” the term slay should’ve been replaced with “stop” or something

[small herald]

The biggest plothole of Doom is by far the Slayer’s origins with the sentinels. There’s so many different codex/ narrative contradictions regarding it in Eternal alone

[gentle umbra]

Not to mention how the Unholy Wars began.

[small herald]

Tag 2 only made it worse

[gentle umbra]

Actually even Doomguy getting to Sentinel Prime in the beginning itself is a plothole that goes unexplained.

But I can excuse it because the Doom 3 theory makes it make sense, and I like the Doom 3 theory.

[raw pine]

can you explain the doom 3 theory? i only know about the martian connection and stuff

[ebon finch]

huh. as usual you are correct

[gentle umbra]

Give me a minute.

[ebon finch]

this type of shit is why back in like 2021 I was interested in doing a treatment of a doom screenplay that would rewrite a bunch of stuff to fix the continuity. but then I was forced against my will to go touch grass

[gentle umbra]

Okay, so, a refresher.

In Doom 3, lore details that Mars used to be populated by a race of ancient Martians long ago. The Martians were intelligent and strong humanoids, who developed teleportation technology and in doing so found Hell, which invaded them. Hell's invasion was devastating, but the Martians were aided by the Martian Hero - a powerful figure who helped them defeat the demons.

The Martians, in a final bid to stop Hell, underwent a ritual to sacrifice most of their souls to become the Soul Cube, which the Martian Hero used to defeat Hell's forces. The few remaining Martians fled to Earth and are implied to become humans.

The Martian Hero is presumed to have died; a sarcophagus was made for him, but it is never confirmed he died.

Cool. Now, the modern games say the Sentinels colonized Mars long ago, called it Hebeth, and the Sentinel colony there called themselves the Bethian Clansmen. Space travel takes forever, so Sentinel settlements were disjointed and separate until the Bethians developed teleporters to allow for instant travel.

Finally, the plothole: the Codex says Hell cannot just invade whatever worlds they want but need passage from the other side, which they gained from the Maykrs in their pact. But if they had no such pact at the time, how did Doomguy go from Hell to Sentinel Prime when there was no prior contact and no way to get there?

Finally: The Martian Hero is depicted as Doomguy wielding a Soul Cube in Doom 3.

So here's my theory, in parts.

1. The Doom 3 Martians are Sentinels. Specifically they're a rogue sect of Bethians who teleported to Doom 3's dimension to colonize an alternate Mars, and disbanded from them.

2. These rogue Bethians were the first Sentinels to discover Hell. After the events of Doom 64, Doomguy is in Hell when he notices Hell is invading another Mars. He pops out, ends up on this Mars, and becomes the Martian Hero, aiding these Bethians in fighting Hell.

3. He succeeds, but is the only one left alive, and presumed dead. He doesn't die though! Instead, he finds the Bethian's teleporters and uses one, suddenly finding himself back in the prime Argent D'Nur's universe, right in Sentinel Prime.

4. The demons find this teleporter as well and follow Doomguy, establishing contact with Argent D'Nur.

So yeah. I think this is how Doomguy ended up in Sentinel Prime, without breaking the plot point of Hell not being able to just warp there.

[winter oxide]

this reminds me, can't you find that one thing with martian hero in 2016? It looks pretty deliberate too to be just randomly thrown asset.

good theory tho, doesn't sound like it would conflict with what was established so far

[gentle umbra]

I don't remember for sure where it is, but they indeed brought back this hieroglyph with the Martian Hero and put it in the Argent D'Nur level in Doom 2016.

[small herald]

Yes, it’s in most Hell levels. If you want to find it quickly, they are at the immediate start just off to the side in the Argent D’Nur mission

This time, however, the slayer/ marine is without his armor. He wields the cube, which is fitting since the cube is in Olivia’s private archives

[ornate lantern]

Imagine sacrificing your entire race to stop an onslaught of literal demons from Hell, locking yourself and your peers in a weapon beyond mortal comprehension, only to be used as an ornate paperweight

[ebon finch]

"use us"

they didn't say how

[ornate lantern]

True, this guy gets it

[ebon finch]

Did anyone make physical soul cube merch

I wouldn't mind an ornate paperweight

Ooo I found one on etsy

[small herald]

Only for it to only be a temp solution lol

[ornate lantern]

It's oddly realistic

[limber geyser]

Thank you employees of ID

For making this channel

[dapper mason]

WHAT IS THIS?

[royal marten]

lol what? They didn't

[dapper mason]

serpent, chimaera, guardian

[gentle umbra]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1435655889825697883/1447659885486674152/4_-_Babel.png?ex=69386dd4&is=69371c54&hm=27c347c9e6041692e5e345d64f26fce11e2e2ba1e402490e5a5121468e41df62&

[winter oxide]

i love how the intermission screen is even lower res

[ebon finch]

half the pixels, pls

[eager drift]

damn that's clean

very nice theory that solves the Martian Hero problem, ties Doom 3 neatly into the main continuity and explains how Doomguy/Hell ended up on Argent D'Nur without requiring a large retcon

you're good

[gentle umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-square-pants-spongebob-cool-finger-guns-you-got-it-gif-3561703

The only real issue with it is Doom 3 implies the Hero is dead, and while it isn't confirmed it is certainly hacky for the theory to say "well, what if nuh-uh?"

But I'll take it personally.

[oak ember]

i love this sm, doom 3 is relevant!

[jaunty hare]

new channel, first

[raw pine]

i take this as canon until explanation is given by id 🤷‍♂️

[oak ember]

true

[royal robin]

Eternal-lore is back? I should write copious amounts of doom fanfiction and put it all here.

[gleaming rover]

No fanfiction.

[royal robin]

Yes I know I did this thing called humor

[gleaming rover]

Phew

[ebon finch]

the return of the king

[royal robin]

I will not be staying unfortunately. This does however feel like being reunited with a lost child

[ebon finch]

Yes I missed eternal-lore dearly. Unfortunately I have learned to touch grass since those days, and cannot commit to the endless arguments of my glory days

[royal robin]

Hugo sez he forgives you, go and be free

[ebon finch]

https://tenor.com/view/cry-sad-toy-story-woody-so-long-partner-gif-9797730

[limber geyser]

Lol

Mind if I use some of your ideas for my project?

[limber geyser]

So my Doom fanfic is fine to post here?

[gentle umbra]

Obviously this is up to, you know, actual admins and all that. But I do personally think this is a thing that is unfortunately up to context and stuff. I've seen people here with Doom writing that is genuinely high quality and fits the topics this channel tackles, but it's hard to go by vibes what should be "allowed" if you, you know, have to read it to make sure.

[gentle umbra]

That's fine.

[gentle umbra]

TBD on this. In my mind it was "yes" but it slipped my mind that freak bullshit fanfic was why the channel went away last time, so ultimately I think that's a hard thing to moderate. The admins may want this kept out of the channel as a whole.

[gleaming rover]

I honestly want this place to be great.
That topic pretty much ruined it last time so I would appreciate to focus on the actual lore if that makes sense.

[ebon finch]

My memory is fuzzy. What was the freakfic that ended the glorious old channel?

[gentle umbra]

That is fair. Is it still acceptable to post lore-related projects such as the classic Codex stuff I've been posting here?

[gleaming rover]

Everything that references actual lore is fine. Just nothing imaginative.

[limber geyser]

Guess I'm stuck in general than

(sighs)

[fiery spire]

Explaining the thing that ruined everything would simply ruin everything again. Let's stick to lore discussion in here. 🙂

[sage shore]

How many grains of sand make a sand dune?

[ebon finch]

11

[devout talon]

if doom guy was a clone of god-but-also-satan-but-not-really since the beginning of time or something, why does he also start as a nameless military grunt? or does the lore say something about him ending up on earth and that military stint just being a way to pass the time until the demon killing fun begins (resumes?)?

[limber geyser]

Well that's better than me assuming the Resurrector sent him there on his "path of perpetual torment"

[gentle umbra]

The idea Doomguy was born a chosen one Primeval or whatever is never actually said in the games themselves. Hugo smoked crack and implied it in an interview once, but the games themselves have nothing supporting it.

Everything in-game points to the notion that Doomguy was born a normal human, and inherited the powers of a Primeval (Davoth) when he was put in the Divinity Machine.
The only weird part is the identical appearance between Doomguy and Davoth, which isn't ever explained in Eternal.

[ebon finch]

I choose to believe that Davoth can take whatever form he wants. He chose Doomguy for Maximum Drama

[burnt heron]

No wonder they never showed this, not that there's anything wrong with the theory itself but I don't think Hugo knows a whole lot abt doom 3 lore and neither do the other writers by extension. This solves the plothole but like I don't expect them to ever show that. It's prob too late anyway

So now I'm glad they never showed doomguy arriving to argent d'nur

Leaves it ambigous

[gentle umbra]

We don't really need this shown, yeah.

[burnt heron]

Huh this channel has image perms

Might become really tough to moderate

Hopefully it all goes well

[short loom]

Is this the lore channel

[gentle umbra]

Doom 1993 is done. Here's three Location files for Thy Flesh Consumed + a bonus final Story file to celebrate.

[short loom]

-# koff

[gentle umbra]

Yes.

[raw pine]

is there somewhere to read them all?

[gentle umbra]

Not yet. I'll make a Tumblr post with all of them soon.

[raw pine]

will read 👏

[gentle umbra]

40 in total.

[devout talon]

does this count as fan fic?

[gentle umbra]

Ehhh. I dunno. Possibly. But this is a lore-related thing, and I think Ghost had a different idea I. Mind when he thought "fanfic."

[devout talon]

and when did doom guy get the time and inclination to be a family guy while also being a clone of maybe-god-and-also-satan-somehow

and also a descendant of blaskowitz apparently...?

[gentle umbra]

Ehhh the last part isn't too relevant.

[devout talon]

-# and keen?

[gentle umbra]

That's what John Romero and Tom Hall believed, yeah.

[radiant snow]

I don't see how those two are mutually exclusive

[devout talon]

i guess not, but it stretches the specification of his character a tad.

[gentle umbra]

When you accept Doomguy is just a guy who gets the powers of a Primeval later it all makes a bit more sense.

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/todd-howard-it-just-works-bethesda-this-all-just-works-gif-20598651

[devout talon]

i'd like to, but theres 2 points i (admittedly only loosely) recall that undermine that a bit

[royal marten]

When was Doomguy ever a "family guy"? Am I missing something? lol

[short loom]

Peter Taggert

-# jokin abt the book in the slayer’s place

[devout talon]

the lore drops in doom 2016 suggest he's been around for a longass while freely ripping and tearing demons, and mr maybe-satan-god-whatever has his likeness

[raw pine]

the photo sir (though.. idk if it holds anymore)

[royal marten]

You know that's a fan story right?

Which is fine. Idk I feel differently which is also fine.

[raw pine]

idk what the point of the photo was other than to hint that doomguy had a family before everything went down, idk what else they were trying to say

[gentle umbra]

The Divinity Machine gave him his extended lifespan.

[gentle umbra]

Well, the photo in Doom Eternal is still there and seems to heavily imply he had a family. To me that's a no-brainer. The possibly weirder part is if you believe the demons killed them, in which case that might make the classic games feel a bit weird to recontextualize.

Because any way you slice it him being so torn up about Daisy specifically is pretty fucking dumb if he also lost his wife and child.

[devout talon]

retroactively? unless doom 2016 takes place many millenia after og doom/doom 3/doom 64/whatever

[royal marten]

The last part of what you just said is more what I'm thinking. I don't think it was that deep in Romero and Carmack's mind when they created him. But this is just my viewpoint. People saying he did everything because of Daisy alone is also funny to me.

[raw pine]

it does lol

[gentle umbra]

That is correct. The modern games all take place many eons after the classics.

[devout talon]

:O

well i guess that point is covered then...

[raw pine]

mindfuck for you: we play as the same guy across every game (except 3), while the modern and classic games take place in different dimensions

[gentle umbra]

Yeah, it is definitely a weird thing. You can argue that the classic games are less literally in the modern canon and more like... an approximation of events that are canon.

In the Slayer's backstory he had a wife and kid. You can say they died in Doom 2, or you can say he just left them behind in Doom 64. But they weren't there in the classics.

The classics are old enough anyway that you have to take them with a grain of salt when you consider their place in the modern canon. Small details are wishy-washy.

[royal marten]

Imo they were just trying to get the game up and functioning more than anything, and the rest was more "lol Easter eggs and fun stuff added". At least Romero's book and interviews have led me to believe this. Conjecture though.

I myself split the Classics from the Moderns for various reasons. So I'm not going to speak on the more modern Doom lore because frankly I have no clue.

[royal marten]

Agreed for sure

[gentle umbra]

Yeah. They are all one continuity, but the details are iffy. Hugo's called the modern story the "Slayer Saga." Going by that, I would not consider the classics part of the Slayer Saga, as they are not truly important to the Slayer beyond giving him a basic backstory before he got to Argent D'Nur. They are more prequels to the saga.

[royal marten]

Is it weird that I almost entirely separate Doomguy from The Slayer? Maybe I'm just a boomer now...🥀

[short loom]

I’m sure a lot of other people do that

[royal marten]

I know it is close-minded. I'm working on that, lol

[devout talon]

if the divinity machine imparted a piece of davoth's soul into doom guy, he practically is a different creature

[gentle umbra]

Nah. They are functionally different. IMO Doomguy is more a concept or an archetype, with the classics as the base.

The Slayer is just a specific incarnation of that archetype. Like Flynn Taggart or Joan Dark or whatever. The only difference is this one happens to have a backstory wherein he was the original Doomguy.

The Slayer is Doomguy but Doomguy isn't just the Slayer.

[royal marten]

The Slayer has much more depth to him. Doomguy is just like...a space marine to me with a sliver of a backstreet.

BACKSTORY*

ffs

[wicked turtle]

I feel DOOM64 is the dividing line on whether he’s the Slayer or Doomguy

[devout talon]

i have a hard time imagining either as a family guy, but if anything, probably not slayer

also im fairly sure having kratos strength would raise a few eyebrows during a physical

[royal marten]

Just thought of in the Fortress of Doom, the funny books and snacks at the computer and shit and it made me smile.

[royal marten]

Added: "Sir, your white blood cells count is dangerously abnormal, as well as your blood pressure."

[devout talon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqVeLS37y58

but i guess slayer wasnt in the (space) marines, but doom guy was...?

(they require physicals and fitness tests, fyi)

[lapis saffron]

nooo really how could you say that

[devout talon]

im having trouble remembering or finding a source for this. some people say 2016 is just a few years after 64

[gentle umbra]

The classic games are in a different Earthly Realm than the modern games. Doom 2016 is set in 2149 and we don't know the dates of any of the originals.

[burnt heron]

I would like episodes returning in doom

They should've never been abandoned

[gentle umbra]

The eons thing is from the Slayer's standpoint. Beyond that the classic games and the modern games don't share a continuity. Different dimensions.

[burnt heron]

Ok that's unrelated kinda but you talked abt episodes and here we are

[devout talon]

i was hoping theyd try to avoid 'multiverse/dimensions' crap. MCU sorta makes a good example of why that just complicates everything

[lapis saffron]

I get why they did it for doom 2 but imo it was such a fun format

[lapis saffron]

I mean it’s not confirmed yet there’s still time for Hugo to go “yea man ppl on earth r just dumb and they’ve been invaded twice”

i think the biggest case for a multiverse actually comes from the rpgs but they’re not even confirmed canon lol

[gentle umbra]

(and also they repopulated the entire Earth within ~100 years.)

[lapis saffron]

speedrun

[devout talon]

if the timeline is "eons" in the future, maybe argent dinner is just a colony of earth humans far removed from earth (physically, temporily, etc.) that wanted to gear up to be properly able to fight demons

[lapis saffron]

Truthfully I think if you asked Hugo how they repopulated the earth that quick he’d go “huh? What are you talking about? What do you mean??”

[lapis saffron]

mm argent dinner 😋

[gentle umbra]

Per Eternal, Argent D'Nur is specifically the first race of humans.

[small herald]

You mean with there being separate Earths? Hugo confirmed it to be a separate Earth dimension. Not an expansive parallel “multiverse” per say, but just a different Earth

[lapis saffron]

could you link the stream clip

[small herald]

I don’t remember unfortunately, but it was in the Eternal streams. I’m 100% certain tho. He said “it is a separate Earth” and went on to say how it’s not a marvel multiverse deal with all these different Earths and Slayers at all

[gentle umbra]

I'd be very happy to see a source for this. The closest I remember is someone asking if Eternal's Earth is a different Earth from Doom II and him giving a vague noncommittal answer of "uh, yeah, I think, because Doom 64 said he stays in Hell."

[small herald]

I remember him adding a comment about it not being a traditional multiverse sort of deal, but it was a similar question he was answering. Not 100% sure. It was probably one of the later Eternal streams

[earnest river]

Hmm can someone answer if Blazkowicz from the Wolfenstein games is still related to Doomguy?

I know in the classic era of doom and wolfenstein they did share ancestry but the newer reboots is vague

[raw pine]

the answer to this lies within your own headcanon but in my opinion:

maybe if you take a perspective that involved the classic games and classic wolfenstein, then its logical that they can be related

HOWEVER

the idea of them being related came from romero. its not explicitly stated or written anywhere in the games, as the only nods that doom has with wolfenstein and vice versa are (to my knowledge)

doom 2

2 secret wolfenstein levels

wolfenstein rpg

a pre-augmented cyberdemon that b.j. fights who also claims that “he will be back to fight his ancestors”

wolfenstein: the old blood

cacodemon plush

wolfenstein: the new order

b.j’s prisoner tattoo being: 04 15 15 13

basically: classic interpretations? maybe. modern doom & wolfenstein? no

again, its all to your headcanon. i have a somewhat different idea of it that aligns with the classic versions but they’re not related unless stated otherwise

[earnest river]

Thats fair, thank you for clearing some things up

[lapis saffron]

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/max-hass-gif-7349423041311903457

[lapis saffron]

The Blazkowicz of the ID RPG continuity is related to the Doomguy of the RPG continuity at least

with the pre-cyber cyberdemon saying he will fight bj's descendants and doomguy being called Stan Blazkowicz in Doom II RPG

[earnest river]

https://tenor.com/view/wolfenstein-choose-can-i-play-daddy-dont-hurt-me-bring-em-on-gif-10149121

[sage shore]

DOOM RPG is such a deep cut for most people. Pre smartphone I’m fairly sure. Advertised on flip phones

20 years ago no rerelease

[lapis saffron]

hey new blood is making a spiritual successor now at least with the Dusk RPG

hopefully that takes off and gets interest in Doom RPG again

[lapis saffron]

there's fanmade ports at least

[sage shore]

Well yes but in the interest of this being an official server. We should pretend those don’t exist for the sake of discussion

[lapis saffron]

is it not allowed to discuss the ports?

[raw pine]

i see rpg as a doom game as much as i do dark ages despite its differences

[gentle umbra]

Is DOOM RPG, like, actually good?

[lapis saffron]

yeah it reviewed pretty well at the time

it's certainly pretty fun for what it is

[sage shore]

If it’s not official I’d prefer we don’t. Discuss the game for sure

[lapis saffron]

is it not the same as mentioning doom 64 tc?

eh whatever

[sage shore]

In case I’ve to spell it out; piracy bad, official server.

[small herald]

Doom II rpg is amazing tbh. One of the most interesting and unique Doom experiences out there

[lapis saffron]

i liked how doom ii rpg characterised the icon, too bad eternal swings in the complete opposite direction lol

[small herald]

It was an interesting take. It was like some ai thing right?

Slightly altered sprite too when he’s at his final form, kinda cool

[eager drift]

Virtual IOS, yeah

[small herald]

Like bios or vios

Yes! That’s the one. I think he taps into the wall entity, so it’s not technically a demon. I can’t remember specifically. Very unique take tho

[eager drift]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/892238793174818848/1447826474517397648/image.png?ex=693908fa&is=6937b77a&hm=7ab5612e3c7898beedd10c6285d40c6847eba5150b7a0ff32c41268e4955ecd0 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/892238793174818848/1447826175861985352/image.png?ex=693908b3&is=6937b733&hm=bf69e54e390c0c8450d3a1b4439a8104650f1bc21444998e278f2954f7a4c4ac

I haven't played the game either, but definitely a cool take on the Icon

[dusky haven]

Visually interesting at least

[small herald]

I remember there was a lot of dialogue and minor decision making between him and the player. It was really different

[oak ember]

a retcon i find REALLY annoying for no discernable reason is when samuel says "this was way before you time with the sentinels" when you arrive at hebeth in eternal, to it literally being the second mission of dark ages. i guess you could chock it up to he didnt know but he knows a lot of things

[lapis saffron]

i think it's actually a smaller retcon where it went from "The Lost City of Hebeth" (Hebeth being the name of the Lost City) to "The Lost City of Hebeth" (Hebeth being the planet, and this is The Lost City of that planet)

[oak ember]

oh that would make a lot of sense..

[dusky haven]

No, it's just that city is lost on the planet of Hebeth

[limber geyser]

I like to think Davoth looked like the Slayer cause of the whole wanting to use him thing

[limber geyser]

I was thinking the Slayer's son died in his arms mainly cause of an unused voice line from Quake 3

"he said he didn't want to die, then he did."

[gentle umbra]

In the Codex interpretation here, in my vision Doomguy sees Daisy's head and knows that the only way the demons could have killed Daisy is if they killed his son first. He rushes home, in the city in the end screen, to find his dead wife and son. Thy Flesh Consumed then happens.

[limber geyser]

I see

Alright

[limber geyser]

There's a picture in Doom Eternal of the Slayer with his wife and son

[limber geyser]

Wdym fan story it's in Eternal

[limber geyser]

I think they make the classic games better, they took everything he loved, his buddies and his family

So um I know I said this before but since we have a lore channel now

[royal marten]

if you would read at all I was referring to the classics

[limber geyser]

I think the original intent for Doom 3 was for it to be a prequel to Doom 2 since the manual for Doom 2 lines up more with Doom 3 (the marine fights on Mars instead of Phobos, is rescued at the end and doesn't wear a helmet if the box art is anything to go by)

[limber geyser]

I did read it I guess I missinterpreted it sorry

[royal marten]

there was a whole convo about it between other people and it's over now lol

[lapis saffron]

The original intent for Doom 3 was not that

We know from developer commentary the intent for doom 3 was “if 1 and 2 didn’t happen”

[limber geyser]

Oh

I didn't know about that my bad

(and it lined up so well)

[gentle umbra]

It's all good. You'll feel free when you learn to disregard authorial intent. Doom 3 was originally meant to be a hard reboot, but it since has been recontextualized as a side story that is canon to the other games' wider setting.

[winter oxide]

3 was clearly a reboot, taking lots of story beats of first game

[lapis saffron]

Same with 2016 :3

[gentle umbra]

So the developers clearly disregarded Doom 3's original intent. Like the classics, they recontextualized them to tie the setting together.

[winter oxide]

Yeah

[limber geyser]

True

[lapis saffron]

Wellllll tbf toooo be faiiiir Hugo technically hasn’t outright gone against it yet

[limber geyser]

Due to how well it lined up I was going to have something similar to Doom 2 happen in the Alternate Earthly realm (the Doom 3 universe) in my project

[gentle umbra]

Well sure, I just mean the games themselves seem to suggest this.

https://www.tumblr.com/m0nology/802465502614175744/what-if-doom-1993-had-codex-files-full
Also, I finished the Doom 1993 Codex file project.

THIS ISN'T A PUNISHMENT.

What if DOOM (1993) had Codex files? (FULL)

I made a post a while ago showing some mockups for if DOOM (1993) had an in-game Codex. Well, I finished the project entirely. It's 40 files total, and here they are, combined into big pictures for your leisure.

The general idea here is adding backstory and text to the original DOOM that fits its tone while also tying it into the modern games.

Transcripts and notes under the cut....

Tumblr · Dec 9, 2025, 2:32 PM

40 pictures total. The embed has all of them combined into big pictures for readability.

[gentle umbra]

Trying to post it to Reddit but it's being fucking stupid and either giving me errors or posting it without the images. Annoying

[limber geyser]

Love these

Reminds me of the extras menus of the FNaF games

[gentle umbra]

Alright finally got it posted.

[gentle umbra]

Thanks.

[limber geyser]

Ur welcome

[granite tusk]

The best lore I guess

[winter oxide]

Cornered beef

[dry solstice]

What is this 😭

[ebon finch]

cinema. it's cinema

[gentle umbra]

I think they would prefer we stay on topic in this channel.

Also, @dry solstice, to expand on the Gargoyle thing: If TDA takes place before the Gargoyles become demons, then even if they were there, the game wouldn't want to depict them because they would be irrelevant to the conflict.

It would be kind of like having us fight random wild wolves in a Wolfenstein game because we just happened to come across them. You know what I mean? The games don't really have circumstantial, non-demon enemies. The closest we have is that shark in Eternal.

[dry solstice]

that makes narrative sense, though it would have been sick to atleast see them as wildlife flying in the distance. instead of an active enemy that you fight.

[gentle umbra]

That's fair. The modern Doom games seem to be very hesitant with NPCs. 2016 had exactly one, and he was only there for two minutes in a scripted sequence. Eternal has some, but they are rare and you typically start a cutscene when approaching them, or they don't react to anything but a scripted action. Valen and the Sentinels who launch you in Immora come to mind.

TDA has lots of NPCs, but they just stand there and react to the Slayer sometimes, and they only show up in sequestered, non-combat areas IIRC. They may have some kind of issue with having something like wildlife reacting to combat or something.

[radiant snow]

As opposed to DOOM 3 having like a bazillion in the first two levels alone

[granite tusk]

From the game's files

[ebon finch]

super weird that you could just murder anyone in the mars base

[radiant snow]

The HL1 freedom to kill everyone which just makes you a villain

[ebon finch]

tbh I didn't love killing the cultists in TDA either. It felt a little more ambiguous than previous DOOM titles, where you rigidly only killed demons

Nice that they made that optional (but like, obviously I did it)

[gentle umbra]

TBF the Slayer explicitly intends to murder Olivia Pierce for the first act of 2016. Plus the Deag Priests.

[ebon finch]

The distinction I draw there is leadership evil vs. rank-and-file cultist dudes. The Deags were, at the time of Eternal, all-but demons themselves, and Pierce wasn't Some Guy, she was the architect of the whole endeavor on the UAC side. She was the cult leader, so that feels better

It's splitting hairs a little bit, but I think there's some narrative elements to explore there and I would have liked to see that beyond just "kill em"

[gentle umbra]

That's fair.

In Eternal the implication seems to be that you don't really end up being a cultist without being consumed by Hell entirely, as a zombie. Judging by every cultist being a zombie.

[ebon finch]

Yeah, I was curious about that because it seemed kinda unclear. The hologram UAC lady is someone I would consider a cultist, but she clearly wasn't hellified (yet). In 16 we saw the recordings of the sacrifice and several codices regarding the propaganda they were using pre-lazarus so where exactly that line is isn't fully clear

[gentle umbra]

The propaganda lady is kind of an anomaly and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't even real - like in-universe maybe she's just a 3D-modeled UAC mascot woman.

[ebon finch]

get out of my head, i thought the same thing

Like, on the surface she's Some Guy but that's very much a possibility

[gentle umbra]

Hell isn't very keen to cooperate with others. They prefer to corrupt them and turn them to Hell's influence. The only times we see them explicitly forming a mutually beneficial, consensual agreement is the Maykrs, who are evil as fuck in their own way, and likely Malcolm Betruger, who was also evil as fuck to begin with.

[ebon finch]

#BringBackBetruger

[gentle umbra]

Usually if they're getting help it's with the express intent that they eventually fuck the helper over. Olivia Pierce was manipulated and lied to, and the Maykrs were betrayed literally the second the Holy Seal was broken.

Betruger's the only one they didn't outright betray. He seemed to prefer getting Maledict'ed.

[royal marten]

I was just gonna ask you to speak on Olivia a bit

[ebon finch]

So who is "They"? is it the various Dark Lords, ultimately under the influence of Davoth?

[royal marten]

also I feel they could've given her a better ending sentence other than "They promised me so much...aəaæaahhhhhh!!" lol

[gentle umbra]

Hell rulership as a whole. They seem to be pretty aligned. I don't think Davoth explicitly leads Hell for the most part, I think he's more like the Father was to the Maykrs. He's their God, and he's their ultimate authority, but he's an indirect influence that Hell honors and reveres.

Hell rulership has Davoth / the Nameless One at the top. A ruling Dark Lord commands Hell as a whole. In 2016 this was the Aranea Imperatrix. Dark Lords are very old, and Ages are defined by their reign.

And then serving the Dark Lord is the Order of the Six / the High Council. In TDA they're the ones ruling, because they have yet to appoint a successor to Davoth - which is the job Ahzrak's trying to prove he can handle. Once they eventually do so, they become subordinates. If the Dark Lord's the President, the High Council is like governors.

[ebon finch]

I didn't get that from TDA at all but I also didn't really delve deep into that game

[gentle umbra]

Yeah no this is what's happening. Ahzrak reports to the High Council, who are watching his progress via Belias, the Hell Priest we see talking to him in a few scenes.
TDA is in the First Age, the era immediately succeeding Davoth's "death." The High Council rules Hell right now, and the Codex says they've been vetting various people to rule Hell - a few tried before Ahzrak, and evidently didn't do well. A Codex page says that Ahzrak's strategy and military-minded leadership is very new for Hell, and it has turned the tides of the Unholy War in Hell's favor.

This is why Ahzrak is called "prince." He isn't the son of a King. He's a potential Dark Lord candidate. The High Council has ruled that if Ahzrak can win the Unholy Wars, he will have proven himself worthy of ascending to the position of Hell's Dark Lord of the First Age. (Though he calls it "king.")

[ebon finch]

There are more Hell Priests than the 3 Deags???

[gentle umbra]

Different Hell Priests. By the time TDA happens, the Deag are seemingly normal and uncorrupted. This is actually why I don't call them Hell Priests, it is a really dumb name on Eternal's part. The Deag serve the Maykrs, not Hell, and any allyship they lend Hell is because the Khan tells them to. Even their extended lifespan seems to be due to Maykr bullshit, not Hell.

But yes. In TDA Hell Priests are the tall skeletal freaks with the long arms. The Slayer kills one of them in the Harbor of Souls. The Codex says they were denied the honor of being Archdemons, so they instead serve as lieutenants to the High Council.

[gentle umbra]

Olivia is honestly a super interesting character and she's one reason why I'm not as ecstatic about 2016's storytelling as most. 2016's "fuck the story lmao" vibe is fun and it was kind of a breath of fresh air at the time, but it also means the very few characters it has that aren't Samuel Hayden don't really get the focus they deserve.

[royal marten]

I agree

Olivia was kind of glazed over as far as explanation imo

[gentle umbra]

The Codex tells us that Olivia is actually suffering. Like, horribly. She's suffering from acute idiopathic scoliosis, and it got bad enough she had to have a titanium exoskeleton grafted onto her spinal column.

She is literally constantly going through excruciating pain, and she refuses to take medication for it because she's afraid it will cloud her mind.

This is why she moves so slowly in all her cutscenes. She is in agonizing pain every second.

[ebon finch]

Hayden had the potential to be the most interesting character until they made him the seraphim

[royal marten]

I know it's a lot for you to type but if you could give me a rundown of her story I'd like to hear it. I only know the trade with hell thing loosely

[ebon finch]

To elaborate: Yeah, I know they wrote the Seraphim with Hayden in mind as that plot twist (hence the same dialogue and the same voice actor in that one flashback) but I think a much more interesting story would be one of Hayden and Seraphim each believing they had Doomguy in their pocket, being the proverbial quest giver. Hayden has a capitalist agenda, Seraphim has a Makyr agenda, and Doomguy acts in temporary alliance with them where needed, but his agenda is purely anti-demon which screws over both Hayden and Seraphim in different ways

[gentle umbra]

A summary here is that she started out a very smart and promising young woman who spent much of her life as Samuel Hayden's protege. The Codex actually says she spent a few years traveling the world to, IIRC, help poor people or whatever in countries like South America. She made a fortune as one of the founders of a whole defense corporation.

From here:

• Hayden offers her a position at Mars. She politely declines, but changes her mind after Hayden sends her evidence of an interesting artifact - probably the Helix Stone.
• She's diagnosed with scoliosis and has to choose between being permanently wheelchair-bound, or the aforementioned exoskeleton. She chooses that and suffers intense, constant chronic pain, refusing to take medication.
• At some point during the UAC's fucking around with Hell, she is approached by Hell - either Davoth or the Aranea Imperatrix. Hell promises her that if she helps them, she can ascend to a godly form beyond her flesh and blood and finally escape the chronic pain that is causing her suffering.
• Over a while, her work drives her nuts. She establishes the Cultist Division on Mars, colludes with Deag Ranak briefly before helping him get to Earth, tries and fails to stop the Doom Slayer from being kept at Mars, then finally sets off a devastating Lazarus Wave that sets free the imprisoned demons on Mars, kills most employees, and zombifies the rest.
• Doom 2016 follows. Olivia dies realizing that what she was promised wasn't really true. She technically "ascends," but as the warped and unholy vessel of the Aranea Imperatrix, not as what she imagined.

Olivia stands as a really cool depiction of the horrific shit Hell does to people. The villainous shit she does in 2016 isn't who Olivia was most of her life, it's her after Hell has driven her crazy and held a carrot on a stick in front of her face for years, getting her to chase this dream that she could finally go more than a few seconds without her entire body hurting. She's used as a Betruger stand-in in 2016, but with this stuff she's a lot more like Valen honestly.

[wraith helm]

Gosh, Aranea Imperatrix is such a cool name.

[gentle umbra]

If 2016 wasn't so focused on having the Slayer give the finger to the plot, Olivia's interesting stuff would be a lot more prevalent.

[steep token]

M0no is gonna have crazy lore to tell with his future arthritis with all this typing 😭

[steep token]

True, but Slayer absolutely girlbossing his way through the plot is the most Slayer thing he could do

[gentle umbra]

I believe it's Latin or some bullshit for "spider empress." The Doom Eternal Lorebook calls her the Atorcoppe Queen, and I believe a Codex file in 2016 calls her the Dread Widow.

[steep token]

Dread Widow is a sick ass name

[gentle umbra]

Oh it is, and I cannot pretend 2016's presentation wasn't a big part of what made it hit so hard when it released. But I do get sick of how much people put it on a pedestal. It's fun, but I prefer Eternal and The Dark Ages as stories (despite Eternal's really fucked up storytelling) because they just have more meat to the actual plot, and take more risks in how they expand Doom's setting.

[steep token]

I need the plot but I also need Slayer to girlboss. Tda nails it by having scenes without slayer

[gentle umbra]

The belief that they fucked up with the Seraphim thing is valid. I personally actually really like the twist and wrote a lot on why I think it improves the story, but I'd have to find it.

[steep token]

I wonder if Vega’ll be back

Like a Vega Ex Machina in a future Doom game

I know thats future stuff but lore man

[royal marten]

Thank you for the detailed information, that's exactly what I was wanting. Her story could be a whole movie tbh

[gentle umbra]

No problem.
A lot of Doom's characters are really cool like this, and just don't get the proper focus to display that. I think Valen is a less egregious example, but Novik's also a really interesting character, and conceptually Davoth is one of the most interesting characters in the franchise - that one just suffers from the limited scope of a DLC.

[limber geyser]

I thought it was the priest Deeg from Doom Eternal who contacted Olivia

[gentle umbra]

Hayden stands as one of the few characters that actually is explored to the majority of his potential in one game, which I think is why people were so frustrated with his direction after 2016.
Ahzrak is another character I would say actually fulfills his potential very well.

[gentle umbra]

Not necessarily. Eternal's Codex simply says that Olivia colluded with Ranak when establishing the Cultist Division and helped him get to Earth under Hayden's nose. In 2016 itself, she reports to the same disembodied demon voice that narrates the Slayer's Testaments. I think that voice is the Aranea Imperatrix, but Hugo says it's Davoth.

(Hugo's answer is definitely closer to correct. But I don't like it. Lame answer.)

[limber geyser]

I sometimes wonder why the forces of evil never backstabbed Betrueger like they did with Olivia

[ebon finch]

This is the way.

God, if I didn't have an election to win... I am feeling reinvigorated and I want to work on DOOM stories

[steep token]

Because he was dealing with a true evil rather than the bitchmade Spider Mastermind

[limber geyser]

I could probably make the voice sound more feminine and say it's the Spider Mastermind in my project if that makes you feel better

[steep token]

Maledict was a beast and needs a return in TDA’s dlc

[limber geyser]

Isn't he dead

Tbf though so was Baphomet (the Icon of Sin) and they brought him back for Eternal

[steep token]

They could definitely bring him back

[gentle umbra]

Well they did the same thing to him. He was fused with the Maledict.

[ebon finch]

it's Hell, they can do anything that is horrifying

[gentle umbra]

The difference is, Betruger was an evil psycho and enjoyed it. Olivia had to be manipulated.

[steep token]

Maledict would go hard in TDA’s graphics. He already has the best demon design

[gentle umbra]

Betruger isn't just serving Hell. I need you to understand Betruger was apparently such a gigachad to Hell that they allowed him to outright command demons, long before he fused with the Maledict, as just an old dude. He is outright commanding demons and wielding Hell rituals to turn people into monsters.

Genuinely I do not think Hell had to manipulate him at all. He just made contact and they were like "oh shit we like this guy. Hey. Help us out. We'll turn you into a Hell dragon."

[ebon finch]

big bootlicker energy

[radiant snow]

They saw that one evil eye and knew this guy is meant to be a villain

[steep token]

Doom 3 has some chad characters

Especially the little robot dudes

[ebon finch]

Betruger was the way he was because he was such a bootlicking capitalist freak like elon that his own board of directors were like "dude... you good?"

[steep token]

Though I gotta know, whats up with the demon heart artifact thing?

I didn’t read any of the pda things in ROE

[ebon finch]

I never actually finished ROE lol. I got the not-gravity-gun and was like "oh sick it's like half life" and then I got distracted

[gentle umbra]

The Heart of Hell. It's an ancient Hell artifact that the Martians were able to steal before they did the whole sacrificial Soul Cube thing. In ROE, the Maledict is desperate to get it back.

[steep token]

Missing out, ROE is amazing

[gentle umbra]

Under a modern context you could argue the Heart was so important to Hell because it's essentially a mini instant Nekravol converter. It absorbs human souls and empowers the person holding it.

Or it just has cultural significance to them.

[steep token]

So its hell steroids

[wraith helm]

He did get it back...

[gentle umbra]

Oh the Marine Engineer gave it back to him alright.

[limber geyser]

Hmmm I see

[steep token]

I just have one more question: do the 64 demon keys have lore?

[gentle umbra]

Something to note is that the in-universe process they used to revive the Icon appears to be very similar to, or identical to, the processes that gave the Imperatrix and the Maledict form. Using a human sacrifice.

The general understanding of Doom 3's Maledict is that it's just a transformed Betruger. But we hear a disembodied demon voice that seems to be the Maledict before we fight the final boss, and it's not Betruger's voice. He seems to have fused with an already-existing demon lord.

[gentle umbra]

None that we know of. They and the Unmaker are both pretty vague and haven't been referenced by the modern stuff.

[steep token]

Gotcha

[limber geyser]

Well that helps with the whole part where I'm making the Spider Mastermind from Doom 1's third episode and Imperatrix the same entity in my project

[steep token]

I just figured the Unmaker was a weapon made by Hell to defeat the marine but didn’t work out because nothing was strong enough to wield it till the marine arrived

[limber geyser]

I read about that, I think it's interesting

[limber geyser]

I was thinking it was an ancient weapons used by high ranking demons made of the bones and flesh of other demons

[steep token]

Thats where the 64 revvies and archies went

They were made into guns

[limber geyser]

The part about being made of flesh and bones corresponding with the Doom Bible

[gentle umbra]

The Unmaker's existence is so vague that it literally did not even have an official name until Doom 64 got re-released in 2020. The term "Unmaker" is a fan name that we pulled from the Doom Bible, where Tom Hall described a weapon called the Unmaker as a "demon-tech weapon." It wasn't until 2020 it actually got canonized.

Walkthroughs, marketing, guides all just called it generic shit like "alien gun," "laser gun," or "alien weapon." In the files it's just called "LASR" and "LSGR."

[limber geyser]

It was originally a sci Fi laser gun so that makes sense

[steep token]

Maybe buried ancient martian technology

[limber geyser]

Phobos technology

The old website for the game says it takes place on Phobos

[steep token]

Maybe buried ancient Phobos technology

[limber geyser]

Alright

[steep token]

I wonder if they’ll ever show us if Legacy Of Rust is canon

[limber geyser]

The Arachnotrons in Dark Ages seem very similar to the Mind Weaver

[steep token]

Because it ends with marine nuking Hell and if we found a nuked section of Hell in TDA’s dlc that’d be a cool call back

[gentle umbra]

I doubt they will. Modern Doom is really vague about that stuff and I think they prefer to keep a certain amount of distance.

[steep token]

True, but they should address it at some point

[limber geyser]

Agreed

[steep token]

Cause it wouldn’t be hard tbh

I say that as someone who hasn’t read the lore yet

[gentle umbra]

Keep in mind the modern Doom games have barely even established any canon timeline for the classics. All they've established is that the Doom Slayer is Doomguy from the classics, and that Doom 64's ending is relevant to him eventually ending up in Argent D'Nur.

[limber geyser]

Seems fairly concrete to me, Doom 1, 2 and 64

[gentle umbra]

Beyond this there have only been references to vague things from the original games that are moreso reappearances than establishing a timeline.

[gentle umbra]

I agree, but if we're splitting hairs this is never said. We can infer it because they're mainline titles, but the modern games never have anything where, say, the Codex tells us "The Doom Slayer used to be a normal man from his own Earth, who fought against Hell on Mars, then Earth, then Mars again before deciding to stay in Hell forever."

[steep token]

Definitely Ult Doom, Doom II, and then Absolution

[gentle umbra]

They don't use explicit wording. What we get is Eternal showing us the classic helmet/armor, Doom 64's rerelease referencing 2016, The Dark Ages referencing the original Earth, and Doom Eternal's cut dialogue mentioning his Earth as well.

[steep token]

I mean, Slayer having his marine armor in the hub is definitely indication of classic Doom happening

[gentle umbra]

No, no, I'm not saying it didn't. They absolutely establish that classic Doom happened.

[steep token]

I know, I’m just giving evidence towards it

[wicked turtle]

I always thought about maybe a TV show that was made to give the classic games more than a broad strokes canonization

[gentle umbra]

What I'm saying is the modern games don't give a shit about telling us how they happened, or what a concrete timeline is. The Slayer's origin as Doomguy is kept purposefully vague so that you can imagine the specifics of Doomguy's timeline.

[radiant snow]

Doomguy keeping Sentinels hostage in his ship canon?

[steep token]

He had them there for a lan party

[raw pine]

what

[radiant snow]

Now they're stuck behind batteries

[radiant snow]

Those token-giving Sentinels that are locked in the Fortress of Doom. I know they're probably holograms but still

[steep token]

The guys who give you suit coins

[raw pine]

oh yeah lol

[gentle umbra]

What I'm saying is, we say the timeline is Doom 1, 2, and 64 for convenience because that's the obvious truth. But if we are really focusing solely on what is explicitly told to us, the modern games don't say much about the classic timeline or how they explicitly fit into the canon from a continuity standpoint. To the point that they thought the Khan saying "Your Earth from the seventh dimension" was too much.
There is still a sizable divide between classic and modern when it comes to the story. I doubt they'll go back to flesh out the classic shit because they don't want the classic games to be inalienable elements of the modern narrative; they just want them to be a wishy-washy prelude to it.

[raw pine]

why did doomguy do this?

[steep token]

I don’t think they’re holograms, they’re in too many weird places for it to be holograms

[thorny imp]

He just ran out of batteries and forgot about them

Those are guest rooms

[wicked turtle]

Are they for rent?

[gentle umbra]

(I do think they're holograms actually. I think every single Sentinel apparition, including Novik in Eternal, is just a hologram. I made a whole theory about this actually.)

[raw pine]

fantasy demonball punishment

[limber geyser]

And there's a gap of a couple of years between Doom 2 and 64 so I think you could fit various expansions and Final Doom in said space

[thorny imp]

Yeah it’s how he funds all of his side hustles

[gentle umbra]

If you guys care, here's the entry where I talk about it in ABSOLUTE DOOM.

[wicked turtle]

Ah, probably cheaper than anywhere in New York

[steep token]

Wait I have a better idea than just holograms

[limber geyser]

I've been hoping for a proper remake of Doom 1 and maybe 2

[steep token]

They are AR beings only visible through Slayers helmet

[thorny imp]

An apartment of the same size in NY would go for about 30 trillion a month

[gentle umbra]

TLDR I think it's Sentinels making copies of their consciousness because they were scared of death and are comforted by the idea of passing on their legacy to future Sentinels.

[wicked turtle]

Also would be cool

[radiant snow]

By the way, speaking of; what the hell even happens in the last level of DOOM 2016? I assume Doomguy is using the crucible to free the wraith souls from being used to harvest argent energy or something but I just want to make sure

[gentle umbra]

Okay, see, this is what I actually mean with the classic timeline. You can fit Final Doom in there. But is it actually canon? We won't know, because the devs don't want to concretely say.

[steep token]

I want Master Levels to be canon just to fuck with lore

[limber geyser]

True

[limber geyser]

I mean for the levels without a story

[steep token]

Just imagine if Master Levels was confirmed canon and actually took place between 64 and TDA

[gentle umbra]

Doomguy is essentially euthanizing the Wraiths and absorbing the Wraith Energy within them, which is how Hayden was able to activate its blade at the end of the game.

The Wraiths play a different role in the Argent Energy thing than you think, and it's hard for me to TLDR it. Summary: Wraith Energy is siphoned from the Well and brought to Nekravol. There it's combined with Hell's Essence to make Hell Argent. In 2016, some of that Wraith Energy is instead leaking to Mars, where the UAC finds it and purifies it to make UAC Argent.

The Wraiths died long ago, but Hell keeps them alive with a curse to keep siphoning their power. You are ending their suffering in 2016.

I actually need to make an Argent family tree because it's more complicated than you'd think. Hang on.

[limber geyser]

You could maybe say it's set between episode 1 and 2 of Doom 2 for the earth levels and the hell levels between 64 and Dark Ages

[ebon finch]

I was hoping Eternal would just get a Master Campaign

[steep token]

Sigil uses actual Satan right?

Or makes reference to him

[limber geyser]

Yeah it mentions Satan

For my project was going to change it to Davoth for obvious reasons

[steep token]

Maybe Satan is real in Doom and they are hiding him because they truly fear him

Davoth feels like a cover for something bigger, maybe Satan

Cyberpunk Doom ends with Cyber Satan

[ebon finch]

big Star Wars energy... always a bigger badder dark lord

[steep token]

Theres so much potential for a real big bad to appear

[ebon finch]

Davoth was The First Being, what bigger bad do you want lol

[steep token]

A being before creation

[gentle umbra]

Here.

[gentle umbra]

(Read from the top down.)

[steep token]

Like Adventure Time has monsters that existed before creation

[gentle umbra]

Well, that's likely not true anymore. The Cosmic Realm is probably older than Davoth.

[steep token]

I just need them to unpiss the bed with TAG 2

[ebon finch]

ughghgh just because they wanted a cthulu boss fight. i HATE this

[steep token]

Why? Its a cool concept

[gentle umbra]

I mean to be fair the Old One's fight went hard as fuck.

[steep token]

Doom should be rooted in horror

[gentle umbra]

I like the Cosmic Realm stuff. Davoth being the be-all-end-all of Doom's mythology is kind of constraining and makes it hard to write more wide-spanning stories, all to keep the sanctity of a DLC-exclusive villain in check?

[limber geyser]

Old Ones?

Sounds very Quakey

[ebon finch]

Constantly establishing lore and then undermining it to make a bigger bad is lame and boring. If they didn't want to end the story, they shouldn't have ended the story

[gentle umbra]

The Old One. The Cosmic Realm god you fight right before Enhanced Ahzrak.

[ebon finch]

Nobody held a gun to someone's head and said "Hey, let's make the DLC the actual origin of god and the universe." They wrote themselves into a hole. a stupid hole

[limber geyser]

I haven't gotten that far into the game yet I'm at the part where the Slayer frees himself from the Maykr

[steep token]

And they just wrote themselves out

[gentle umbra]

I wouldn't say the Old One is a bigger bad, though. It's a different bad. And TDA circumvented that anyway by establishing the Old One has been defiled and turned into a loser monster by the time you fight it in TDA. The Cosmic Realm is divorced from the rest of all this shit, it appears to be completely outside of Davoth and Jekkad and Urdak and all that.

[limber geyser]

But I've been wondering if the gods of Quake made Davoth after you brought up the implication that Davoth was created by someone

[steep token]

Hexen + Doom + Quake

[limber geyser]

I don't know if the Serpent Rider games are canon though

[steep token]

They aren’t

[gentle umbra]

I don't really like Davoth being the oldest and greatest thing in the series anyway. What I like is him being the oldest and first man in Doom's canon. I like him being an Adam figure more than a genuine serious God. It's why I do not believe he created the rest of reality.

[steep token]

Hexen and Heretic are their own series entirely

[radiant snow]

I don't want anything id other than Wolf3D+SoD to be canon to DOOM

[steep token]

Theres potential in it though

I don’t want it either but it has potential

[limber geyser]

I mean Heretic, Hexen, Commander Keen and Rise of the Triad are also canon to my Doom project

Oh can't forget Wolfenstein

[steep token]

Imagine Slayer vs Eidlon

[rose spoke]

need

[steep token]

That’d be such a cool fight because Eidlon is just a power tomed baron

[steep token]

Triad and Heretic were supposed to be the same universe

[limber geyser]

I know

Hence why they're in there

[steep token]

Fair

[limber geyser]

You see I wanted to canonize Rise of the Triad as a Wolfenstein sequel

Let's move this to general

[gentle umbra]

Started working on the Doom II Codex stuff, also. Here you go.

[raw pine]

is 1 on tumblr?

[steep token]

Oh Mono, you gonna do codex for 64?

[gentle umbra]

https://www.tumblr.com/m0nology/802465502614175744/what-if-doom-1993-had-codex-files-full
Yes, link here.

THIS ISN'T A PUNISHMENT.

What if DOOM (1993) had Codex files? (FULL)

I made a post a while ago showing some mockups for if DOOM (1993) had an in-game Codex. Well, I finished the project entirely. It's 40 files total, and here they are, combined into big pictures for your leisure.

The general idea here is adding backstory and text to the original DOOM that fits its tone while also tying it into the modern games.

Transcripts and notes under the cut....

Tumblr · Dec 9, 2025, 2:32 PM

[gentle umbra]

That's the plan, yeah. Might be harder because I don't know if I can conveniently do text in 64's font like I can classic Doom's.

[radiant snow]

The backgrounds just barely don't loop 🥹

[steep token]

Sick. I am interested in the shadow imp

[gentle umbra]

LOL. They do side-to-side but not top-to-bottom. I've been told it's kind of ugly, the background I chose for Doom 1, but I wasn't sure what else to go with.

[radiant snow]

Fireblu

[raw pine]

will read while im eating thanks

[gentle umbra]

Some of the story ones were kind of self-indulgent. But I'm happy with Daisy's I think.

[raw pine]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-gzdoom-fireblu-gif-17883547523958253199

[steep token]

Shoulda used the blue stuff from E1 M2 where you get the key

I think it’s carpet

[limber geyser]

I personally think the Revenants are reanimated possessed enemies as they look too similar to a human skeleton to be a demon

[limber geyser]

Doom 64 can be opened in Slade

[gentle umbra]

I don't really like the idea of them being reanimated demons and I take the manual's description of them as just a joke. 2016 saying they are even more fucked up Possessed is just cooler.

[limber geyser]

So you should be able to grab the font if not try CE a port of 64 to UZDoom

[gentle umbra]

Oh this part I have down fine. But I use a text generator online for the text in these mock-ups, as individually moving the font sprites would take forever. I don't see an option for Doom 64 though.

[limber geyser]

Can't you just install the font on your computer and type it in a document

[gentle umbra]

They're not gonna be in the files as Windows-installable font files. They'll be sprites of individual characters.

[limber geyser]

Oh yeah sorry my bad

[limber geyser]

Alright here goes lore for the Revenants of the seventh dimension (the Classic Doom universe) in my Doom project

Once the UAC were able to fix the problem with their teleporters they were able to find out what truly happened during the delay between teleportation

Turns out the "volunteers" were momentarily stuck in hell, Eventually the science team were able to teleport to and from Hell on their own and began to send survey teams to explore Hell and bring back specimens

One notable specimen brought back was a strange energy source

Leading one member of the science team got a bit curious and wondered "What would happen if we gets this substance close to a deceased possessed, they sure do seem to be attracted to it while alive"

The result

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1355284094317236467/1448053080691052596/PreDoom-OriginalRevenantModel.jpg?ex=6939dc05&is=69388a85&hm=ae98c0db96603bb8d4e213cd9322520cee4fb86f66dd0a31706c20de6295d25a&

They grow taller, have literal fire in their stomachs and usually their skin falls off

The military thought that if the resulting creature could be trained to obey orders it would be a powerful weapon so they started commissioning the creation of more so called Revenants

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1355284094317236467/1448053564868919387/daniel-peterson-revenant.gif?ex=6939dc79&is=69388af9&hm=f401976c0b1d2734040c20c021e9f8c556bee0d0a078f34cb4ab51e38ed63093&

They were eventually outfitted with some sort of rocket launcher like weapon albeit it fires energy projectiles

They also have a jetpack for maximum mobility

Turns out they're still loyal to hell and when the invasion began multiple escaped and began running around the moon bases and earth. Hell also got information from an inside informant and learned how to make their own Revenants

So now whenever a possessed dies

They just dust them off

Inject them with the black magic found throughout Hell

And give them armor and a jetpack with the "rocket" launchers

And that's the lore of the classic Revenants in my project what do you think @gentle umbra and anyone interested?

[gentle umbra]

I'd say that's a nice idea for them, yeah.

[limber geyser]

Thx

[dapper mason]

read a lot of the classic codex. Yes it is lightning coming out of the Cacodemons. But in 2016 its changed to poisonous bile. I believe cacodemons to have elemental properties.

[steep token]

Cosmic Ice Caco when?

[dapper mason]

CacoLich

[lapis saffron]

Surely Commander Keen 5

[ebon finch]

commander keen is the utopian post-demon future for after davoth is defeated

[gentle umbra]

That's interesting.

It feels like it changed between both so I tried to make fun of that. Part of the files was me trying not to specifically lean towards or against long-standing theories or whatever.

i.e. did Doomguy die at the end of E1M8? I don't think so, but the Deimos Anomaly file has him think about it a bit.

Also thanks for reading it. Took more than I thought.

[steep token]

I thought it said he was captured

Shit I gotta read the text screens again hold on

Ok it definitely doesn’t say you were captured

I dunno where I got that from

[lapis saffron]

Legacy of Rust doing the same thing but saying captured?

[dapper mason]

Well about those holes ...

[steep token]

No it was definitely something I believed way before Legacy

Who knows, probably a headcanon I forgot was a headcanon

[raw pine]

iirc we dont have official confirmation on the origin of some of hell’s species. but, some of you may recognize my name from one of the many dev livestreams, particularly the last one where i told josh that i had an oc myself inspired by davoth.

i feel like what i did is a rational explanation for many of hell’s species, so to avoid confusion ill just use doom’s already existing names

in immora, when davoth came to be, many species sprouted from his being, ranging from the typical immoran to different varieties of wildlife. when davoth turned into the dark lord, these species turned demonic with him. for example, an animal in jekkad that was once a quadruped could have been affected by hell’s wrath and evolved to the pinkies we see in the games.

just my idea and how it could be applicable to doom

[gentle umbra]

I mean, yes. There is significant precedent for something like this to be the case in Doom.

The Codex says Jekkad used to look beautiful and heavenly. You can look at the scenery of Ingmore's Sanctum as an example of what Jekkad was like.

Davoth's rage after he and Jekkad were sealed away transformed the land itself. The Blood Swamps, for example, were called the Pleasure Gardens before Davoth's rage transformed them.

It isn't insane to say the same could have happened to the people/wildlife in Jekkad.

In my Codex project I wanted to lean into the idea that Mt. Erebus was the first place to be transformed, in fact.

[raw pine]

well in that case: because imp, imp stalkers, prowlers, archviles, barons, hell knights, basically anything that walks on two legs, could they have been transformed from a simple jekkadian to these demons? maybe specifically archviles

[gentle umbra]

This part's a bit more ehhh, because the original Hell people still exist as a ruling, isolated caste in Hell. We fight them as Demonic Troopers, actually. But Immora is implied to be relatively unchanged by the effect that transformed the rest of Jekkad, so you could perhaps say only the people inside Immora itself were kept intact.

Personally I think Archviles are an Imp Stalker mutation anyway.

[raw pine]

i saw someone say that the walls built around immora were made to keep the demons out, is there anything that supports this or is this just fan theory/speculation?

[gentle umbra]

Just speculation. We don't see anything implying a hostile relationship between the Immorans and demons, other than the Intern theorizing Immora hordes the divine technology as a ruling caste.

Armored Barons are stated to be guards of Immora, though. Like that is their normal job.

But it's up in the air if Immora needs guards to keep the disgusting awful demons out, or if it's just because Immora is a holy city and they want to screen anyone going in.

[raw pine]

maybe there’s a social pyramid in which high-ruling class demons like the barons, archviles, cyberdemons, etc are allowed in while lesser demons like the cacodemon, pinkies, arachnotrons are kept out

[gentle umbra]

Possibly. I assume Cacodemons and Pinkies wouldn't be allowed in just by virtue of being animals. That's like letting a cow into the White House and letting it shit on the carpet.

Archviles, though, are definitely Hell "people." With some possible exceptions you can reasonably assume the humanoid demons are "people" demons, not "animal" demons. It's up to you if "people demons" would be discriminated against by Immora or not, though.

Archviles are, like, enforcers. Those and Cyberdemons are at the top of the demon hierarchy other than Hell royalty.

Like, if you're the poor demon watching over the House of Pain to make sure we meet today's Mortal Torture Quota, an Archvile is the guy who knocks on the door when you fuck up and need to be reprimanded.
With hellfire.

(To make an example.)

[raw pine]

would kill for a hell reality tv show

[burnt heron]

Sounds very saturday morning cartoon

[steep token]

That’d kill on Adult Swim

[gentle umbra]

I do want to tackle writing a story from a demon's perspective about the average day in Hell. I think it would be a fun challenge to write that and try to make it somehow actually interesting and serious, and not, like, a joke.

One of the more interesting things about Hell I like is it as a society rather than just an alien wasteland.

[raw pine]

ofc ofc just the idea of doom hell having a tlc-style show is funny af

[steep token]

“Tonight on TLC we enter the Argent Energy factory to speak with some of its workers”

[raw pine]

undercover boss: nekravol

[steep token]

Could get some nice hidden UAC lore from it

[raw pine]

im gonna simplify this but this is my interpretation of what demons are allowed and what demons arent

[burnt heron]

Are vagaries banned bc they serve no master

[raw pine]

that + they're really gross lol

[steep token]

Real

[raw pine]

this is probably easier to look at

it would have been really easier just to move the demons in the original photo idk why i reset it

[steep token]

Doom 3 time baron would def be allowed

Muthafucker can float

I think all 3 ROE barons would make for killer entertainment

[lapis saffron]

They’d let hell hunters in

[wicked turtle]

TSA scanning Doomguy on his way into Immora and seeing he has the BFG in his luggage

[orchid sail]

But in Doom Eternal they're said to be descendants of the oldest demons. Maybe it's the other way around, and the Arch-Vile bloodline kept thinning and thinning until the Imp Stalkers came around? Like with the Seraphs and Sidhe in Heretic

[gentle umbra]

Well, the Imps have been around forever.

[orchid sail]

Mmm...

I'm gonna read what the codex said again and I'll think about a possible interpretation

Okay, it explicitly says that they descent from "the eldest race of demons". It'd be pretty funny if imps were that eldest race, but also kind of a slap in the face

[ebon finch]

I am so confused by demons "descending" from anything. I thought they were manufactured

[orchid sail]

Well, the entry for the 2016 spectre said that it bred once it went back to Hell. So I guess that demons can both be made from bodies turning into them after the soul abandons it, and by the natural process of the birds and bees (or something else entirely)

It would be cool if a demon species reproduced like starfish, for example, and had to be burnt entirely for its chunks to not turn into new individuals

[ebon finch]

dead space vibes

it's the cells that are animated and then turned into fucked-up abominations

[orchid sail]

Could you elaborate? I haven't played or read anything about Dead Space

Oh wait, I read that wrong. Now I get it

[ebon finch]

in dead space the uh... I don't know the lore as well but the Evil Object was able to reanimate dead cells on its own, but then it could create certain monsters that specialized in doing that even away from the Evil Object. It would shove these claws into your chest, kill you, and reanimate you. The only way to stop those zombie things was to cut off their arms and legs because technically they couldn't die. If you blew their head off they'd just keep coming. Great game, highly recommend

[raw pine]

some are, some arent

[orchid sail]

Okay, NOW I get it. Thanks!

[raw pine]

for example imps are descendants dating back to the early days of jekkad (iirc) and arachnotrons are made in factories

mancubi arent born with those cannons lol

[orchid sail]

Well, we don't know about the arachnotrons from the classic games

[ebon finch]

I always thought the "ranking" of the demons (with like, barons on top or whatever) had to do with the resilience of the soul that died to make it

and lost souls were incels who were too dorky to get to be an imp

[gentle umbra]

I want to clarify that the term "demon" is incredibly wide-spanning and means nothing on its own. In the guide I personally say that the term is best defined as "an entity native to or aligned with Hell that is not an Immoran."
Imps are demons. Pinkies are demons. Zombiemen are demons. Blood Maykrs are demons. But these are all different things.

[orchid sail]

The lore for those is fascinating. Lost Souls are humans that have escaped captivity and slave labor in Hell and eventually lose their humanity after being lost

[gentle umbra]

Archviles are demons, but they are high-ranking citizens of Hell. Cacodemons are demons, but they are simply wildlife. Blood Maykrs are demons, but they are just corrupted Maykrs. Revenants are demons, but they're just mutated possessed humans.

So some demons can be manufactured. Others are citizens of Hell. Others are just monsters, that naturally live there. Some are species of other worlds that have been absorbed.

[orchid sail]

Is it explained how Blood Maykrs got their makeover? Like, they were overtaken by the rage of the Icon of Sin, but how did they become red and grow horns while the Maykr drones are identical to their normal selves?

[ebon finch]

the red and horns appeared, fun fact, because it looks dope as hell

but something something hell corruption

[gentle umbra]

Their corruption at the hands of Hell mutated them.
A Blood Maykr is a Zombie Maykr. You, as a human, see a Zombieman and understand it is a possessed and corrupted version of a human with rotting flesh and a fucked up mind. That is how a Maykr would see a Blood Maykr.

The Maykr Drones not looking different is an irritating plothole. IIRC, the Drones in the Khan Maykr's fight look different, and look more similar to how a Drone should look at that point in time. When you play Eternal just pretend every Drone you fight is red and fucked up looking. I personally use a mod.

[ebon finch]

Annoying plot holes in DOOM? Well, I never!

[gentle umbra]

(It does, but I do wish we could have fought more actual Maykrs. This is one of my only serious problems with the Maykrs. They are one of my favorite things in all of Doom, but I wish they were more present in the gameplay.)

[gentle umbra]

Hahaha. At least this one is just a minor design inconsistency.

[orchid sail]

Ooooh, interesting! Sadly I don't own a pc strong enough to run Doom Eternal, so mods are off limits for me

But still, humans don't grow horns when possessed, which still makes me wonder why Maykr Angels got such a unique transformation. Maybe because they're angels specifically? Literally going from angel to devil like a fallen angel?

[ebon finch]

boy do i have good news for you, steam machine comes out soon

[gentle umbra]

A follow-up statement: some people theorize Maykrs are probably demons in some way given that their transfigured forms resemble demons. This is a potential wrench in that theory. We see what Hell corruption / demonization does to Maykrs and it is a different process with different visual cues from Transfiguration.

Transfigured Maykrs do look suspiciously demonic, but I do not think they are demons or anything like that. If anything I think it is a thematic tie to Davoth, the creator of both Maykrs and demons. His machines, as they degrade, look like Davoth's typical patterns of creation.

[ebon finch]

I mean, it impacts all species differently and I like to think that Hell has a flair for the dramatic (For example, I don't think Davoth looks like Doomguy. I think Davoth chose to look like Doomguy because he's the king of drama queens). I posit that they grow horns because whatever hell energy consumed them said "dude horns would be siiiick"

[orchid sail]

I'm saving my money for the Dark Ages helmet. I've heard it comes with a code for the game for pc, so I'm gonna give it to a friend of mine who has been wanting to play it. But I'll consider buying a Steam deck in the future

[gentle umbra]

Keep in mind Maykrs are biologically completely different from humans. I think Hellification just looks differently depending on the species. Maykrs are literally robots. Robots made of biotechnological material that degrades into flesh at the end of its "life cycle." Hell corruption would naturally manifest completely differently.

[orchid sail]

Glad to know I was right with them being robots, even if it's biological in some way we do not understand. Humans go from "Earth flesh" to "Hell flesh". Maykrs go from "Urdak tech" to "Hell tech". Like, Blood Maykrs look really similar to the aesthetic of Immora, which is a technological city within Hell, and Maykrs are mechanical beings... You see where I'm going, right?

[gentle umbra]

Yeah, Maykrs have some misconceptions surrounding them here. I want to emphasize that the story implies every single time you see flesh or blood on a Maykr it is a symptom of Transfiguration. Not normal.

[ebon finch]

clarification: I think of Davoth as having some similarities to like the Maiar and the Ainur of Lord of the Rings. Gandalf isn't a very old man, he's a divine entity who chose to come to middle-earth in the form of an old man to convey wisdom

[gentle umbra]

It's very likely that if you were fighting "pure," non-Transfigured Maykrs, they wouldn't even bleed. They'd just break apart like shooting a computer. Like that scene where the beat the shit out of the printer in Office Space

[ebon finch]

i want to see that in a doom movie

[gentle umbra]

This is why I was so baffled by Hugo saying the leeches on the Kreed Maykr's body were "robotic leeches" that he's in a "symbiotic relationship with." To me the game itself had a very blatant implication: that the leeches were a grotesque symptom of Transfiguration, that it was ravaging the Kreed's body and turning it into disgusting masses of leeches, and that this meant you could tell that Samur has already stolen the Father's Life Sphere by now.

[orchid sail]

I like that idea. I found it really funny and I do not know how to express it (like, for real, I ain't being sarcastic)

[gentle umbra]

Hugo has explicitly stated that Doomguy is the one who looks like Davoth, so most people take that as fact. I can appreciate you sticking to your own interpretation and not bowing to authorial intent. More satisfying to interpret the answers yourselves.

I mean this genuinely, not in a patronizing way or whatever. Hugo's answers are not always the best or most sensible ones.

[ebon finch]

yeah i know he has but hugo pisses me off a lot of the time lmao

[orchid sail]

I mean, couldn't he have got them removed if they were parasitic beings? It doesn't seem that hard to do when compared to literal resurrection. Even if they need the Father for the latter

[gentle umbra]

I can accept Davoth looking like Doomguy because I have my own theory about Primevals I like. But I ignore some of his other shit.

[ebon finch]

Like, I firmly reject the whole multiverse idea on the grounds that multiple earths is stupid. I think DOOM is a much more compelling narrative if it's the same guy trying to save the same earth, even if it's the same earth multiple itmes

[gentle umbra]

The way I saw it was the leeches were a part of him. I don't think he'd have been fine and dandy if we let him life after the leeches left away.

[gentle umbra]

We can agree to disagree here. I do not really like the idea of it all being one universe. It feels impossible to fit together without ignoring a lot of details IMO.

[ebon finch]

Oh i am very happy to ignore those details. The whole continuity is a mess, I think it's perfectly appropriate to cherry pick the best parts and leave the rest

[gentle umbra]

Yeah, just different approaches.

[ebon finch]

Comics does that all the time. They'll pretend a stupid issue just didn't happen

[orchid sail]

Ah, okay, now I get it. Like, his organs (or vital parts of himself) turned into leeches. That reminds me vaguely of Look Outside

[gentle umbra]

Yeah, I'm saying the metal of his body Transfigured into leeches. At least that was the impression I had when I played the game.

OK. I am playing Ocarina of Time right now, got a day off work. Ping me if you have any more questions; I'm not actively checking the channel on my own right now but I'm happy to explain anything.

[orchid sail]

Okay. It's always a pleasure discussing about the lore with you!

[ebon finch]

My dream is to write up a treatment of a DOOM movie franchise, and treat it kinda like fast and the furious: It starts out relatively reasonable and grounded and then the further into the series you get the more insane and ridiculous it gets

[orchid sail]

I dunno about that. I've heard the latter Fast and Furious movies are pretty awful, so the same happening to Doom... Even then, Doom movies seem to be cursed

[ebon finch]

I don't mean make them badly lmao. I mean in one of the F&Fs they sent a car into space and everyone was like "yeah this might as well happen"

Doom 1: Demon invasion, oh no
Doom 4: Go to heaven and murder god

[orchid sail]

Okay, I get you now

[winter oxide]

I once saw the theory regarding that: Davoth took that form because Doom guy is the only one they fear , Ahzrak also mentions that he won't be able to rule so long Doom guy is present. What's your opinion on the matter?

[gentle umbra]

Personally I do believe Davoth always looked like this, and cannot subscribe to the idea he is mimicking Doomguy. Even without Hugo's comments, Davoth has the same silhouette as Doomguy in the Codex images for the Book of the Seraphs, showing he looked like this all the way back when he was betrayed.

[wicked turtle]

It makes sense to say that Doomguy looked like that first, because Doomguy has looked that way since 1993

[gentle umbra]

My personal take on it is I like my theory that a Primeval is just a Doomguy; that every realm has, at some point, an iteration of Doomguy who will be born. Doomguy's base personality is that of a strong-willed and angry man. Davoth is The First Doomguy, he is born in Jekkad so his anger and passion turns it into Hell. But the Slayer is our Doomguy, who suffers and loses a lot, and whose anger and passion is used to fight against Hell.

[winter oxide]

Then i guess it's just a one in a billion coincidence Doom guy looks like that

[gentle umbra]

That is why I believe Doomguy and Davoth look the same. They are the same man, just having been born into different scenarios.

[ebon finch]

So Immorans are just humanoid-lookin dudes then? And does that mean there's a Sentinel Doomguy?

[wicked turtle]

I do understand this theory but I don’t really like it because it takes away some of the original Doomguy coolness of defying all odds and doing the impossible

[gentle umbra]

Immorans are either humans or humanoid, yeah.

[winter oxide]

Two sides of the same coin huh, i believe something of sorts was mentioned in TAG2

[gentle umbra]

Jury is out on a Sentinel Doomguy though, it depends. There is one Primeval in every dimension. If Argent D'Nur is in the same dimension as Doom Eternal's Earth then that dimension's Primeval could have been on either planet.

I don't think a Primeval has to end up being important. Maybe this dimension's Primeval was a Doomguy who got the short end of the stick and died a few months into Eternal's invasion of Earth.

[gentle umbra]

Trust me when I say I agree and I hate Hugo's comments insinuating Doomguy is some kind of chosen one. But I like to think my theory is somewhat of a compromise, because the only thing that makes Doomguy important is his own personality, dedication, and will to do the right thing. I don't think our Doomguy was literally fated to become the Slayer.

In my view of this theory, for every important Doomguy there is probably like 200 Doomguys in other realms who either lived ordinary lives or only did heroic things in normal ways.

[wicked turtle]

I don’t know, I just feel like saying “oh there’s a bunch of them” isn’t as cool as saying there’s one

[gentle umbra]

Well sure, I am moreso just working off of what I believe is there in the story. I don't really like how they handled Davoth and Doomguy looking the same at all. But that's what it is, so I have to work with that to try and make it make sense.

[wicked turtle]

I do understand that Davoth has been pulling the right strings to get Doomguy to do things, but I feel like it’s still interesting that Doomguy beat him at his own game when they came face to face

[wicked turtle]

Yeah, I suppose there’s only so much you can do to explain it away

[winter oxide]

Elsewhere , Doom 4 1.0 probably happened instead

[gentle umbra]

As far as I'm concerned Davoth has nothing to do with Doomguy's journey up until the Divinity Machine stuff anyway.

[wicked turtle]

That’s what I meant

[limber geyser]

I think Davoth underestimated the Slayer

[ebon finch]

you don't say

[limber geyser]

Or was ambushed when teleported to Deimos and died to buckshot

[gentle umbra]

After some consideration I think I'm gonna try expanding the Doom guide to include the spinoffs.

To, uh, differing degrees. It's not really worth going over the fine details of Final Doom and shit, and I contend that I don't believe spinoffs like that fit into the continuity. But I do think it's worth me adding info from these titles and marking that info as ambiguously canon.

Right now this would include the official spinoff WADs (Final Doom, Legacy of Rust, likely both Sigils (sigh)), both Doom RPG games, and Doom Resurrection.

Probably about time for me to add shit from The Lost Mission too.

[radiant snow]

NRFTL?

[gentle umbra]

Probably.

But I don't really care to add these to the Chronology. Their place in the timeline is tenuous at best, not to mention the ones that likely don't even have Doomguy himself in them (like, probably the RPGs).

I think I might just briefly summarize in the Chronology and then confine their info to the other sections. Like adding entries in the demons section for the Legacy of Rust monsters, or keeping them in one section of their own.

[raw pine]

im thinking of trying to play vfr to see whatever lore i can get out of it

[gentle umbra]

Ah, fuck. Yeah... VFR too, maybe. I'll probably have to cover that too.

I just don't really wanna play that.

[raw pine]

as someone with both an index and vfr ill reinstall it and attempt to play it

[limber geyser]

I would consider the RPGs canon to the alternate earth aka the Doom 3 universe

Cause it says Doom 3 is canon to the RPGs on the website

[limber geyser]

Hmmmm has it ever been shown that Mancubi eat their victims

[gentle umbra]

Not explicitly, but TDA's Codex hints heavily at it.

A gluttonous mass of smoldering hellfire, the Mancubus functions as the lumbering artillery of Ahzrak's demonic horde. **These grotesque beasts gorge endlessly, **devouring rotting flesh with an endless hunger until their organs burst within their bloated frames. Driven by primal lust for carnage, they kill and consume without restraint, their cannibalistic frenzy fueling their own grotesque growth. When their corpulent bodies can no longer move, they collapse, becoming a feast for younger Mancubi, perpetuating the endless ravenous circle of death.
They do not explicitly say that Mancubi kill and then eat victims, but the progression of statements here suggests it.

[limber geyser]

Alright perhaps I could restore the unused blood around his mouths then (the ID Vault has unused sprites with blood around his mouth)

Also I use male pronouns for them as I thought they were meant to be the male equivalent to a succubus

Cause of the name

[ebon finch]

that seems pretty explicit tbh

[ebon finch]

that is a reasonable assumption to make, but that's called an "incubus" like the band

[limber geyser]

I know Incubi are a thing yeah

[raw pine]

they aint tapping shit 😭

[limber geyser]

You mean tempting

[radiant snow]

Tapping is a term

[ebon finch]

Speak for yourself.

[limber geyser]

I don't know what he means in this context if he didn't misspell tempting

Oh ok

[wicked turtle]

Other Mancubi

[raw pine]

true

[limber geyser]

Hmmmm perhaps I could say it's an example of female sex dimorphism in my project

That means the females are more aggressive than males in case you didn't know

[lapis saffron]

Untrue

[limber geyser]

It did one moment

[lapis saffron]

It says

you reprise the role of the Doom Marine made famous in the groundbreaking id Software titles Doom, Doom II, and Doom 3.
So it just means "You are Doom Guy"

[limber geyser]

Tbf it does mention Doom 1 yeah

[gentle umbra]

What Gristwatch is saying is that just because Doomguy is in all these games doesn't mean it's the same one. Doomguy is a role that several characters play.

John Grimm is Doomguy in the 2005 movie, but that doesn't mean he's John Kane, the Doomguy in the Doom 3 novels. And neither of them are the Doom Slayer, the Doomguy of the modern games.

[limber geyser]

true

[lapis saffron]

[limber geyser]

sorry lol

[lapis saffron]

If it is all one shared canon it’s likely that it goes

• Classic Doom Universe (1, 2, 64, Comic(?))
• Doom 3 Universe (Doom 3, Resurrection)
• RPG Universe (RPG, RPG II, RPG Comics)
• Modern Universe (2016, VFR, Eternal, The Dark Ages)

• Annihilation Universe (Annihilation, Wolfenstein Ultimate Challenge, FNaF 3)

[gentle umbra]

I like this. Though I have to point out a recent possible wrench: The Art of Doom: The Dark Ages may be implying Argent D'Nur is in a separate universe from the modern Earth.

[lapis saffron]

Uhhhh do u have a screenshot

[gentle umbra]

Hang on.

[gentle umbra]

Courtesy of @small herald.

[verbal radish]

!

[gentle umbra]

HORDE made the argument that "our own" may refer to the real world rather than 2016/Eternal's.

[lapis saffron]

Errmm

That’s kind of odd

Wouldn’t really explain how they ended up on the modern earth in the past

[gentle umbra]

Keep in mind this book, like Eternal's art-book, has some outdated info. So it's not a wholly reliable source.

[lapis saffron]

I’m a little confused as to what it means

[gentle umbra]

It could mean Argent D'Nur is in its own universe and they just dimension-hopped to Earth. And, apparently, they either dimension-hopped to Hebeth casually offscreen, or TDA's Hebeth isn't Eternal's Mars.

I have chosen to ignore this because it's stupid.

[lapis saffron]

I have chosen to believe it’s poorly worded

[gentle umbra]

Also that page, like the intro to the game, gets the timeline of Doomguy's arrival wrong.

[lapis saffron]

Wuhhuh

[gentle umbra]

Eternal's Codex says Doomguy got to Argent D'Nur first, shortly before the demons did, because the demons followed him there. And the artbook saying "recently arrived" seems wrong - the Codex in Eternal suggests Doomguy fought in the Unholy Wars for likely years before he became the Doom Slayer.

TDA's intro also acts like the demons got there first.

[limber geyser]

wait there's Doom rpg comics?

[limber geyser]

agreed

[lapis saffron]

There is a tie in comic that came bundled with Doom II RPG on certain phones

[limber geyser]

do we have a pdf of it?

[lapis saffron]

Nothing too crazy just a short prequel to Doom II RPG

[lapis saffron]

I’ll send a link when I’m home

[limber geyser]

thx

[lapis saffron]

Retcon or they just don’t really care

Or they have a loose definition of newly lol

[gentle umbra]

Been thinking about Imps and Archviles and made this.

[gentle umbra]

Eternal's version has much more detail put into that scenario, so I think it is the more likely one.

[limber geyser]

I like to think the Dark Ages Imp are meant to be elderly versions of the modern imps cause of the grey hair

[gentle umbra]

@dusky haven you might like this actually.

[raw pine]

big fan of this

big fan of imps actually

[dusky haven]

Dude, huge

[orchid sail]

I think you should have summoners as a 2016 descendant. They just feel the most similar to me

Like, their projectiles are stated to be energy, and not hellfire. But maybe that last part isn't true, and the Dark Ages codex was written by someone who didn't understand the true nature of these projectiles, and thought that they were fire. But that would make it so not all information from the codex is reliable

[gentle umbra]

I'm mainly just going by the Codex's wording, which calls the Summoner a subgenus of the Imp.

[lapis saffron]

Wouldn’t it mean 2016 Imp then logically?

Just based on the game it’s from