Meta Discussion

[civic sky]

which I have been doing 😅

[misty pollen]

im not talking about the UI, im talking about the mapping of data to interaction, and again, showcase v1 maps perfectly to showcase v2

its not about the showcase really its about the "lets turn it off and see how it goes"... like, as NB said, its small, who cares. But i hate that idea when it wasnt needed in the first place

[civic sky]

who cares not my take. I care, that's why I went for this.

[misty pollen]

then why not keep both channels open and see "which wins"

[primal parcel]

survival of the fittest lmao

[misty pollen]

you have a bias, dont pretend you dont

[civic sky]

I do have a bias, i told you my bias

my bias is the old way

[carmine star]

do you not also have a bias?

[misty pollen]

100%, ive made mine clear, but i didnt turn anything off

[civic sky]

my bias is the old way. But, I said that the way people interacted with that channel before I made it into what it became was different, and I saw people "enjoy" the old style more than the new style of that old channel

[misty pollen]

i dont think your bias is the old way, your bias is using a new feature :p

[civic sky]

or at least, it was a "different kind" of enjoyment

[faint flicker]

I think the new proposed solution seems to allow people of both biases to have it their way

unless im missing something

[carmine star]

^

[misty pollen]

(this is why java script framworks are in such a mess 😄 )

[misty pollen]

what is the new proposed feature?

[faint flicker]

both a single channel of showcases, like the old way but without responses

[civic sky]

if my bias was the new way, wouldn't I just abandon the old way altogether? My bias is community engagement first and the "features" that facilitate that

[faint flicker]

and the new forum threads

and showcases will show in both

if the dev wants

[misty pollen]

and how does that work with "i just made this"... and why does it need a [showcase] command

[faint flicker]

/showcase will add it to the showcase channel

[misty pollen]

what, for example, is wrong with a channel, 100% like before, that, when it gets to "wordy" people ask it to be moved to a forum thread about said project X

[faint flicker]

wait what was the question

[misty pollen]

(for example)

[faint flicker]

I tended to miss most of those

[misty pollen]

its like "we have forums, we must use them", even if they dont fit (which they dont for the showcase imo, or at leas the previous version of showcase)

[civic sky]

new way won't need a command

[misty pollen]

anyways, its all over complicated imo (im ofc willing to be proven wrong), its a problem (that didnt exist, personally) that might have been fixed by forums if used alongside

[faint flicker]

again, I personally find the new way far more engaging

[civic sky]

[showcase] tag is for forum posts to auto crosspost into the showcase channel - this is for convenience
/showcase command will now (from the discussion with frying pan who came up with a better idea than mine) will now just be a "gatekeeper" it will specify the rules and nature of the new channel. Which will be read only by default. And you can post into the channel "freely" but now there will be active content control on the channel

[faint flicker]

and organized

the only benefit I saw before was a cool visual list of showcases

[misty pollen]

great, so that proves me wrong, for you. I disagree (personally), but the two methods could happily co-exist

[civic sky]

after agreeing to the rules and nature of the channel with /showcase command. You'll get a role showcase and then its use is the same as before, except hopefully clearer and more organised

[faint flicker]

what if the [showcase] tag wasn't limited to forums

[misty pollen]

what if you had showcase channel and forums... ... 😮

[civic sky]

bruh

[faint flicker]

thats what is happening

[misty pollen]

i mean without the magic... forums... ... showcase channel

should have been a no brainer

[carmine star]

splitting up showcased content between a forum and a single channel is a silly idea imo

[civic sky]

your way is certainly the easier way, my way requires me to pay closer attention

[faint flicker]

what if any channel (assuming it's relevant to that channel) can have showcases.

so i could showcase a new flixel release in the #flixel channel

thats why I keep mentioning that the crosspost would link to the source message

people would just talk about it in the #flixel channel

[misty pollen]

why not? Or a "flixel showcase forum" that you post links to in the "show case" channel

[civic sky]

I could do that, i didn't think of it outside of the new forum feature

mostly cause of ian's idea of autolinking back to the forum thread

which i thought was neat

[faint flicker]

yeah, that seems very necessary imo

[misty pollen]

(not as neat as just being able to post what you like in a channel ofc - assuming its relevant)

[civic sky]

gotta find the right balance and sometimes to do that you gotta tip the scales a bit

[faint flicker]

to me the problem of having to create a forum thread is smaller than the problem of having every showcase discussion in a single channel

mostly because you don't HAVE to make a forum thread

just talk about it in the various relevant topic channels

[misty pollen]

but this is what annoys me slightly. This is exactly what im talking about. There is no balance to tip. You could have just opened a "project forum" and directed people (organically) to discuss X or Y there. Instead you went full parental mode.

[faint flicker]

I'm just having trouble seeing the downside here

[misty pollen]

im having trouble seeing the downside if either / or were a thing

[faint flicker]

like if ther was the old channel and forum with an auto cross post channel?

[misty pollen]

"wanna post a picture and someone starts a thread"... "cool, its not really how we do things anymore, but cool".... "wanna post an update to a project and discuss", "cool, we have forum system for exactly that"

[civic sky]

Hmm, you're kind of right there. I certainly did not do this out of impulse, but I didn't discuss it. I did think hard about it for a while and it seems like the right thing to do. I guess what you have an issue with is, is my attitude of "I think this is the right way to do things".

I think I should have discussed it with the mods, which is definitely an oversight on my behalf. Dang.

[misty pollen]

my issue is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater... no reason both couldnt have existed (and no bots, no code, no nonsense).

things tend to move organically to the "right" direction (for the community), look at SYW before you turned on slowmode

[chrome wadi]

Honestly, I think both options have pros and cons, but I agree with @carmine star in the sense that having content fragmented into 2 locations (showcase channel + forums) makes me uneasy. There will be content you don’t see if you only checkout showcase channel because, for sure, not everyone will use [showcase] command etc…

[civic sky]

I have given multiple reasons as to why both shouldn't exist for a temporary period of time. I'm not going to repeat them, as you seem to just not value them to even acknowledge them.

This is not organic movement, this is still enforcement. It's just "gentler" the only difference is - is that my way is just abrupt. It's essentially efficient

[chrome wadi]

(But maybe I’m wrong and everyone will use [showcase] properly)

[misty pollen]

This is not organic movement, this is still enforcement
gotcha... 😮

[grave grail]

i prefer forums for projects that have multiple updates

[civic sky]

by this, i was referring to slowmode

and constantly reminding people to "stay on topic" is not really a pleasant experience either

[misty pollen]

understood - thankfully

[tardy imp]

How long has this discussion being going on? 😅

[civic sky]

doing that immediately kills any convo that people are having

[carmine star]

multiple days

[misty pollen]

but there wasnt anywhere else to take it

[civic sky]

i don't know why

[primal parcel]

o god

[civic sky]

i was gonna spend today working on haxebot 😅

queens bank holiday

[misty pollen]

to solve a problem that doest exist? :-p

[tardy imp]

@misty pollen We could've played factorio with all of this time!!!

[misty pollen]

would have been simpler

[civic sky]

in your opinion

[primal parcel]

I should get factorio

[tardy imp]

Honestly a great game, a perfect programmer genre game if there was one.

[primal parcel]

actualy, someone should get factorio for me

that is better

Idk, smth like shenzhen i/o is probably better for something like that lol

[misty pollen]

omfg... its not that "this problem exists" or not. Its that clearly, there are differences in usage, and turning off one "to see how the other works" might kill both of them

[civic sky]

It wouldn't though, this community isn't that "weak" 😅

and i was clear that it is only a temporary move

[misty pollen]

i think my "annoyance" (on this topic) is above this community, i thought we were engineers...

[carmine star]

you have to be pretty strong headed to do anything productive with haxe

[civic sky]

lol

[misty pollen]

"lets turn off the fan belt, just for a minute, to see if that helps the brakes work"

[primal parcel]

Haxe is simultaneously the worst and most productive language I have used

[tardy imp]

That's the most meta thing I've heard 😂

[faint flicker]

I keep wanting to play factorio, it's on my list. seems fun

[civic sky]

i mean, people will slot on the scales in various degrees. But, my position here has me focus on community, I'm not really sure how it wouldn't otherwise 😅

[carmine star]

you are always fighting with it, but it will do what you tell it after enough fighting 🙃

[tardy imp]

Do you have the game? or on your list as in to get it?

[primal parcel]

It is kinda expensive

$30 seems like a lot

[misty pollen]

NotBilly, its like im talking another language: if its "all good" then why not keep the old way, introduce a new way and see what happens?

[faint flicker]

gonna talk about factorio in #casual-chat

[primal parcel]

no

this is factorio chat

[faint flicker]

lol

https://tenor.com/view/captain-phillips-boat-hijack-im-the-captain-now-barkhad-look-at-me-gif-4242563

[misty pollen]

make a forum post 😉

[chrome wadi]

A few weeks of experimentations is not a big deal imo, let’s take it easy, and well, I appreciate @civic sky is trying to improve things, even if the process can be a bit chaotic sometimes. It’s not like we can’t discuss anymore and the whole discord is cut, nobody gets hurt 😄

[primal parcel]

A good use of forums would be to move Linux Nerds and Wordle Nerdles into a more permanent thing

[carmine star]

at this point though they are basically already permanent though

[misty pollen]

100%, if im going "overboard" its not at @civic sky 's dedication to this server, this space and this community. That is without doubt. None of us would be having this conversation if it wasnt for him. My point, simply, is that one feature didnt need to cancel out another

[primal parcel]

Yeah, we should make linux nerds into its own channel

[carmine star]

although i think having a "general purpose" forum for talking about whatever would be neat as like an alternative to #casual-chat (but not replacing it)

[primal parcel]

freedom from the chains of the thread!

[carmine star]

because its kinda hard to find threads right now imo

in normal text channels that is

not forum channels

[primal parcel]

i mean, it isn't that hard to mass ping people into the thread

[carmine star]

ok but lets someone wanted to start a Windows Nerds thread, it would be kinda hard for anyone interested to find it if they happen to miss the "thread created" message

not to mention how that would be heresy 🙃

[tardy imp]

If show-your-work gets killed off it'd be nice to have a channel :]

[unique onyx]

Sometimes I get the impression you don't like windows 🙂
That said, it's hard to find stuff in sym if you didn't see the ping or a subsequent comment - you don't know what was to posted to look for anyway - with tags you can see topics that might be of interest

[chrome wadi]

Thinking again about what has been suggested by @carmine star , and actually that could be nice: a show-your-work like before + a general purpose forum not necessarily used to present projects. Maybe that’s not a bad idea

I also think the forum-like display could be a better fit for asking for help in haxe in general. When asking something in the current #haxe channel, something can easily get lost in the flow without any reply (it happened to me). Having a real post is probably better to get the question visible, and also to find it later

[copper spindle]

there's already #1020312969361498112 which should function exactly the same, right?

[chrome wadi]

Yea that works too if the old "show your work" is just a topic in the forum-thing I guess

My point is that forum display could be a good fit not only for showcasing stuff

[molten sedge]

Currently discord forums are quite uncomfortable to use, so I'd rather not visit forums in the first place, lol.

Unless I want to visit specific discussion.

[copper spindle]

the only possible complaint I have is following too many forum threads clutters up the sidebar 😂

otherwise it seems to be exactly like a normal discord channel

[chrome wadi]

Honestly, I don't think it's that bad, it has some advantages but I guess we are becoming subjective here

[molten sedge]

It's more about UI. Feature itself is overall good I think. But implementation is... eugh.

[copper spindle]

it would be nice to have the ability to collapse forum threads in the sidebar so only updated threads show up

[chrome wadi]

Yeah, for me the advantage is to be able to tidy things a bit more, like some conversation is not something hidden in a big flow of messages in a single channel

[molten sedge]

I suspect they'll eventually have to add it (discord devs I mean) due to user pressure.

[chrome wadi]

Hopefully user feedback will make it better

[molten sedge]

Discord getting more and more corporate. And you know what corporate is extremely, amazingly good at? That's right, making UX worse.

[unique onyx]

I think I missed something - is it possible to create threads within forums ? I couldn't see anyone having done it and I cannot see how to do it myself

[copper spindle]

the chat we're in right now is a forum thread - a little different than a regular discord thread

not by much though

[molten sedge]

Okay, look at that HUGE ASS search bar. And even a HUGE ASS blue button.

I love wasted space in discord.

Also those rounded corners look like shit, gotta love rounded corners everywhere, it makes apps look like garbage.

[copper spindle]

lol well now you're heading off into real subjective territory

I think the biggest gripe I have with that top section is it's easy to conflate making a new thread with search

I don't think the new post button should be nested in the search bar

[unique onyx]

I mean create a thread within a forum channel on reply to an existing post

[molten sedge]

Look at my custom-ccsd discord and claim it looks worse than default garbage with rounded corners. I dare you.

[molten sedge]

No, you can't. It's a feature exclusive to regular channels.

[copper spindle]

yeah so because we're technically in a thread you can't make new threads

[unique onyx]

that's actually a shortcoming

[molten sedge]

Forums is essentially post-threads but more persistent and have to be started manually instead of having to create them via answering.

[unique onyx]

they didn't make that mistake did they ?

groan

oh well - that's a pity

hopefully they can add it - w/o it more general channels will not be able to host very specific discussions out of band

but thanx - I missed that

[copper spindle]

looks old 😂

is it just one like of css like border-radius: 0 !important;?

[civic sky]

i'm not a fan of the default spacing as well

[molten sedge]

Not exactly. I keep rounding on some elements + I now need to update it for forums.

[civic sky]

but fortunately this is configurable

[copper spindle]

do you like it tighter?

[civic sky]

yes

[copper spindle]

haha I love some whitespace

[molten sedge]

Oh, didn't knew they added that

[civic sky]

[molten sedge]

Holy shit it now looks so much more compact.

[copper spindle]

but when chatting and coding I get that it's nice to see more verticality

[unique onyx]

as far as the layout goes in the side by side panes on a reasonable size screen I quite like it

easy to scroll the forums and checkout what might look interesting

and following what you want is good

wish they had threading

[molten sedge]

I'm okay with subtle rounding. But all apps fucking abuse it making it badly stand out.

[copper spindle]

I guess it depends on the app for me

I like rounding on entertainment or "fun" apps but don't really love it a lot with productivity apps

[molten sedge]

Sure, it's contextual. But when it's ON EVERYTHING like in discord - it looks like shit

[civic sky]

i have a threshold, as long as the UI changes doesn't make things laggy or too inconvenient, i'm okay

new discord mobile app is garbage

[molten sedge]

UI changes doesn't make things laggy
HA.

[civic sky]

i don't even know how they can mess that up so badly

[molten sedge]

Every fucking time I see redesigns of UIs on websites or apps they perform much less responsive + less features.

You rarely see actual improvements on those.

[copper spindle]

I don't think less features is a bad thing but I think I'm in the minority there 😂

[molten sedge]

I will stab you.

If feature is here and it suddenly get yeeted with no reason - whoever decided it being deleted deserves their arms being broken.

[civic sky]

😂

[chrome wadi]

It's because discord is FUN

(fun = rounded? 😅)

[copper spindle]

eh features is overrated imo a great program or game does one feature as well as it can and every other feature brings diminishing returns until quickly the feature set becomes unwieldy

ironically you're complaining about a new feature

[civic sky]

auto creating threads is kinda ugly ngl

[primal parcel]

I am pro-rounded corner

fight me

[copper spindle]

and it'll probably take time for discord to address the issues you have with it because they also have to maintain tons of other features

[civic sky]

title isn't very intuitive 😅

Question:

I had to make a bunch of guidelines for #1019922106370232360 when i created the channel

how does that present to you guys? I've never seen them anywhere

[civic sky]

oh lol

it's cut off when my discord is 50% window width

which is 95% of the time

[primal parcel]

Never even noticed it lmao

[civic sky]

yeahh..

i'll just put a brief guide lines to posts allowed in the showcase channel

[unique onyx]

only shows if you don't have a forum thread open

so I completely missed it

[molten sedge]

Please do not post projects made in other languages here. If your project is 50% haxe 50% cpp that is fine to post
But HL extensions are more C than CPP

[civic sky]

soz bro, can't have it here then

50% is true balance

[tardy imp]

What if the project is an ocaml mod for Haxe?

[primal parcel]

I think the rule should be changed to "projects which are of interest to the Haxe community"

As there are things that are not made in Haxe, but which are interesting

Such as Haxe language support for text editors

[civic sky]

I mean, haxe related covers both of the above?

[obsidian violet]

they seem to conflict with each other

[civic sky]

i mostly gave 4 as an example

but i'll remove it as it seems to cause confusion

[fleet scarab]

Here's my biggest issue with this format:
In the old style, I could ignore the show-your-work channel for days or weeks and then come back to it and do a scroll through and see everything that was posted since I had last checked.
and, at a glance, stop on stuff that looked interesting that might be totally new, or an exciting update to a project, etc.
With the new system, you lose that.
You either have to follow specific projects from the beginning and then go look when they say they have new posts to see if anything is new, and projects that you're not following might be posting cool new updates and you'd never know unless you go look at ALL of them.
All you have to go on is the very first image that was posted (if there was one) - you can't quickly see if a project has changed or evolved or gone from 'meh' to 'OOoohhh' since the last time you saw it...

I think this format works great for a project that wants lots of discussion or feedback about it - but as a showcase of 'here's something cool to see' I think it is a detriment to that.

just my 2 cents 😛

[civic sky]

Agree, old channel should reopen under the new setup within a day or two

[fleet scarab]

Like I said, though, for people/projects wanting deep feedback or help, I think the forum style is the way to go.

[primal parcel]

This should be renamed to "project-log"

[sick drum]

or just projects

[civic sky]

So the new system will be 2 channels:
#showcase
#projects

#projects - is #1019922106370232360, the forum layout
#showcase - will be a channel purely for "what is going on" in the haxe community. It will be read only, by default. To access it you have to type /showcase and just hit agree to this. Mostly so people aren't immediately surprised to see their message get deleted and they understand the rules of the channel from the get go

The channel will have 2 ways to post to it:
Regular discord chat way. Slow mode is set to 30mins on the channel.
And by using the [showcase] tag in a forum thread

If you prefix your post with [showcase] within a forum thread, it will cross post to #showcase channel with a link to your project in #1019922106370232360

Regular threads will be enabled for #showcase. Messages that are deleted from #showcase are sent to the authors DM

hmm maybe I should do in server, hidden message instead of a dm. People may have dms off not sure how that works with bots

[unique onyx]

In the forum you can sort by creation date or recent activity but you don't seem to be able to sort by unread new posts or something similar - is there anything like that ?

[civic sky]

nah, that may come. The feature is still in open beta

[unique onyx]

I only realized that today - it's only been out a week or something

[tardy imp]

o

[civic sky]

it has been out for a few months, but to communities bigger than ours

[unique onyx]

oh

[deep flame]

1244 comments lol

[copper spindle]

This must be a very popular project!

[tired rover]

My 2 cents: so far, so good. I really enjoy the thread system because it allows to post more frequent updates for a specific project without flooding a single channel. Also, just like good old forums, it allows subscriptions to projects you'd like to follow.

BTW, this could probably be very useful to have something like that for #tools as well. I would totally use a dedicated thread for LDtk related stuff 😁

[molten sedge]

Well, ldtk kinda falls under "projects" umbrella, no? (Given that forums would be renamed into "projects")

[tired rover]

what is "projects"? 🤔 #1019922106370232360 ?

[molten sedge]

Yes. Look a few posts up, there's explanation from Billy.

[tired rover]

My bad! I didn't read previous messages 😬 I agree

[civic sky]

good thing I'm off work this week 😂

[civic sky]

I think there are 2 issues with this is that the discussion around the release in a general channel can
a) it can be interspersed with help requests
b) people who are interested in the showcase, but not "flixel" may naturally just not want to follow over to #flixel or #heaps

[faint flicker]

Neither of those seem like deal breakers to me, they seem like bad executions, or rather, a good use for threads

[civic sky]

so [showcase] within threads outside of #1019922106370232360 instead?

[faint flicker]

Or you [showcase] in say, flixel and then make a thread off that original showcasing message

So when people click the link it's the message in flixel with a "George created a thread" box right below it

Alternatively i could make a thread and then showcase inside it, but i expect this to be less common

Unless they are showcasing an update in an existing showcase thread

[civic sky]

the issue with auto creating threads is the title

[faint flicker]

I dont mean auto creating

[civic sky]

threads require a title parameter, which isn't really doable without directly requesting a title

[faint flicker]

I just mean they can make a thread there

[civic sky]

ahh

i'll have a think about that, it doesn't seem like it's optimum

What I can see happening is someone creating a thread in #flixel and then someone else creating a thread in the #showcase channel

split discussions :/

[molten sedge]

Btw any reason why [showcase] is limited to #1019922106370232360 exclusively? What if I post something worth showcasing in #heaps , for example?

[civic sky]

it's not particularly limited by intention

the intention was to just cross post showcases from the projects area, which makes sense because you can directly link to an organised location to chat about the post

[faint flicker]

I was under the impression that you couldnt make threads in the showcase channel

[civic sky]

you will be able to make threads in the showcase channel

you just wont be able to chat in the "parent" showcase channel

[faint flicker]

Oh

[civic sky]

doing a [showcase] tag outside of the showcase channel will likely just lead to instances where there's multiple places to talk about the same thing which doesn't seem like good design

[faint flicker]

Thats why i assumed the discussion would happen in the linked channel/thread

And showcase is just the showcase list

[molten sedge]

I still kinda think that limitation is fairly arbitrary. But you do you.

[faint flicker]

Mine?

I think its for the purpose of avoiding multiple discussions

[civic sky]

will see, the limitation is to just not segregate things. If people are chatting in #heaps but someone who's scrolling through #showcase may read a thread that's in the #showcase channel but may not go to another channel to read as you'll likely get content that you wouldn't expect to see

[faint flicker]

So they want to discuss it or read up, but dont want to click the link?

[civic sky]

it's a ui/ux psychology thing, like if you make things a few more clicks away or increase the "journey" to get to something it creates "friction"

[molten sedge]

Look, I still consider that whole forums thing was a massive mistake on the grounds that you wanted place to discuss projects, but for some reason decided to conflate it with showcase channel in the process for no good reason.

[civic sky]

I think you misunderstand my goals, but it's cool, we'll see how things evolve and we can discuss improvements here over time

[faint flicker]

Same number of clicks to enter a thread underneath the post

One downside to my approach, is that i fear people will showcase a post. Make a thread for it. And people who click through may type in the channel rather than than the thread

[civic sky]

if the thread is within the #showcase channel, yes. If it's in a #lime channel I can't auto link to the thread, I have to auto link to a message and then someone has to then go find the link

it's more awkward

[carmine star]

why cant you link to the thread?

[faint flicker]

Go find the link

I thought we were including the link in the crosspost

[civic sky]

and then if someone presses "back" on their phone or something, rather than going back to showcases they go back to the lime channel

[carmine star]

#956928971927339018 and #1019926282802298880 work fine, no?

[civic sky]

for showcase posts made outside of projects

[faint flicker]

I mean i just dont see this as an issue

Discords back button use is pretty terrible in threads, but if people eant to talk about a showcase they will, despite what they are clicking, imo

[primal parcel]

Linux Nerds best thread

[molten sedge]

Again, iirc bots can do proper <a href="...">custom text</a> compared to regular users. Meaning you still can make ugly-ass link to specific message into something usable. And if someone started a discussion thread afterwards - it's in the chat log.

[faint flicker]

Yeah

[primal parcel]

No, but they can use markdown in embeds

Unless something changed

[civic sky]

But i can't link to the thread, i have to link to a message - 1 click and then someone has to "check" if a thread even exists, which it might or not.

[faint flicker]

I still prefer, personally

[civic sky]

Prefer, as opposed to?

Just a direct post in the #showcase channel?

[molten sedge]

What do you mean tho? If message spawned a post-thread, then it's literally attached to the message:

Plus if user is interested enough to know if there was a discussion or not - one click to check is negligible.

[faint flicker]

Id rather have the old style, anything goes showcase channel, rather than ONLY* allowing threads in the new channel. And i prefer discussions entirely in external places like a forum post or other channels/threads

[molten sedge]

As I understood you still would be able to post in showcase channel as usual with slowmode, but you first would need to get posting permission via /showcase command, no?

[faint flicker]

Yes

I guess that is where threads are needed

In the showcase channel

[primal parcel]

I like this best

[faint flicker]

Which? I listed 3 from most to least preferred

The last one?

[civic sky]

Okay. So here's the two scenarios.
Scenario 1: (Current)
Everything is organised into #showcase. As you scroll through the showcase channel, it is clear whether a post has more discussion or not as the user can see immediately that a thread exists without needing to go anywhere else.

Scenario 2: You're allowed to trigger [showcase] outside of #1019922106370232360

This becomes awkward. I can't auto create a thread for people because of the title issue, so I have to link to a message. So in the showcase channel I link to a message, fair enough.. That part works. But here's the issues, a user can't know from that message link whether a thread exists or not. They have to go manually check it. If there's no thread, they have to then go back to the showcase channel.

[faint flicker]

Cant you add a thread title field to the command prompt?

[molten sedge]

They have to go manually check it. If there's no thread, they have to then go back to the showcase channel.
Yes, and? I don't see it as an issue.

[primal parcel]

The one I replied to?

[civic sky]

It's inconvenient/inefficient. Like how you find discord over padding messages is annoying as it's wasting space, this issue is similar

[faint flicker]

I feel the only time a thread in showcase is needed is if they use the command to make a new post without a link

[civic sky]

maybe windows hiding settings under many categories is a more appropriate example

[faint flicker]

When crossposting the original message is the start of the discussion

[molten sedge]

Here's my thought process:

1. I browser
2. I see neat thing that I want to see what people talk about it
3. I check links
4. If it has a #1019922106370232360 thread link - click it. (Actually, I probably would want to click a link that links to original showcase message)
5. If not - click the link, check messages and if there's any post-threads or not.
6. Go back.

[faint flicker]

Yeah

[molten sedge]

Yes, it's less convenient, but not as bad as no way to post outside #1019922106370232360 or directly into #showcase .

[faint flicker]

I find it pretty convenient

[civic sky]

bruh, that's literally normal

like, you can't post in #flixel without going to the flixel channel 😂

[civic sky]

Plus you run into the issue of opening up to places to exchange the same thing

[molten sedge]

Also, if you really want to auto-create post-threads and need a title - just use whatever the first line of the post is.

(Well, first non-link line)

[civic sky]

if it's only a link, what then? 😅

cause that's not uncommon

[molten sedge]

Are titles supposed to be unique?

[civic sky]

i think unique to the channel, yeah

[carmine star]

ideally you would describe what your project is, no?

[carmine star]

#casual-chat message

[molten sedge]

if (not in #projects && message.split("\n")[0].removeLinks().blank()) rejectShowcase()

I.e. if it's just a link - don't trigger showcase and just tell the user "hey, not gonna do squat without title"

[civic sky]

what about the multi thread issue?

someone creates a thread in #showcase and someone else creates a thread in #ceramic

The only way this works well imo is if a thread can be directly inferred

[molten sedge]

With cross-posting feature [showcase] already creates a problem that original poster won't get a notification if someone would create a post-thread inside #showcase . Even if they have link to #1019922106370232360 thread.

[civic sky]

It doesn't create an issue with #1019922106370232360 because the norm is all cross posts will have a place to talk implicitly

[molten sedge]

Someone, someday, will go and create a post-thread like that.

[civic sky]

I'm sure they will, but, that's an edge case 😅

I did not actually account for that so maybe i'll make the cross post message clearer that there's a place to chat already

[molten sedge]

Same goes for your insistence of always having a thread for every single showcase post.

It's not always needed.

[civic sky]

that's not going to happen

[molten sedge]

I meant that showcase post have to have a thread attached to it, either forum one or manually created.

[civic sky]

it doesn't require that

[molten sedge]

But your reason for not allowing [showcase] outside of #1019922106370232360 is that:
A) Can't properly auto-create post-thread (it shouldn't auto-create anything)
B) Can't be sure where the discussion is (it's in the place where original post was created, because original poster won't get notification of post-thread created on a cross-post message)

[civic sky]

right, it doesn't actually add anything to the people consuming the content. It just makes the poster's life a tiny bit easier

If you can give me a fair reason why it makes the consumers life easier, then I can maybe understand why there's value to it

cause from what I gather, it just makes things more confusing (for the consumer/user)

[molten sedge]

But HOW it makes it confusing ffs. With simple-ass format like:

Showcase in #heaps (Message: <link>)
<copy of showcase post>
That's it. User can click the message link, see if it has any discussion, go back. Compared to:
Showcase in #1019926282802298880 (Message: <link>)
<copy of showcase post>

[civic sky]

you didn't answer my question though, you don't think it's confusing to do that - i got that. But can you tell me how this setup actually benefits anyone other than the poster? And even then the active solution doesn't change any current behaviours that they're already used to. I can give reasons for that with the current solution.

I can't see how allowing it cross channel benefits others

[carmine star]

i dont see how it doesnt benefit to do that

[molten sedge]

It adds benefit to the poster and does not create any negatives for consumer. That's it. In fact, it would make it better, because, let's say I posted something in #heaps. Then I just copy-pasted it to #showcase. Then people talk about it in #heaps and then someone else creates a post-thread in #showcase. Now there's 2 separate places where conversation is happening.

And users in place A would miss conversations part from place B and vice versa.

[civic sky]

it's less cohesive, to put it simply. Lets sum up all the reasons why I think this isn't a good idea

• It's less cohesive
• You create the potential for double threads. (Bad for both the user and the poster)
• It objectively is more work, it's "simple", "I don't count this as work" work, but it is actually extra steps. And doing that across all channel categories, often. Is just gonna lead to people not clicking the link
• It's awkward when there's projects and channels,#haxeui exists but Ian also has a project, now there's 2 places. To cross post from. A user may forget they cross posted in one channel and do it again in the other
• Rather than a guaranteed #1019922106370232360 link that has a place to discuss things. It is now ambiguous. Lets say you have 6 cross posts in a row in #1019922106370232360 and all of them don't have a #showcase thread. You want to see what people are saying about each of the projects. You have to open link, check if thread exists, if it does, click again - read. If it doesn't you have to then browse through some help requests as replies to the showcase link is interspersed through out. And repeat that 6 times.
• It encourages bot cross posting which isn't particularly great in itself

[civic sky]

this is objectively worse for the community

[tardy imp]

You should just do what you are thinking @civic sky and deal with feedback of the thing once it's out there.

[civic sky]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking 😅

Cause I think there's been so much discussion about it now that it has become a bit unclear of what i'm actually gonna do or how it's going to work

[molten sedge]

• You create the potential for double threads. (Bad for both the user and the poster)
  Except that's exactly what's going to happen with or without. Because if it doesn't allow me to auto cross-post, I would do exactly as I described:

1. Post in #heaps
2. Copy-paste it to #showcase
   Because not everyone have #heaps unmuted and nont everyone have #showcase unmuted, and cross-posting nets me higher visibility.

[civic sky]

More people look at #showcase than they do heaps

#showcase is the most read channel of the server

[molten sedge]

But at the same time #heaps have people who are more insterested in Heaps and more likely to discuss particulars.

[civic sky]

which is why there's the option for threads in #showcase

The exact same freedom of discussion, will be encouraged in those threads. At least that's what I want out of this

[molten sedge]

Exceeept people would rather talk about it it right in the channel related to Heaps than go to some thread nobody even created.

[civic sky]

I dunno, people talked about particulars in the old#showcase threads. And before the threads people would always talk about particulars before I started encouraging the channel to be on topic. So I don't think this change will actually negatively effect that

[molten sedge]

You do you

[carmine star]

why dont we https://tryitands.ee

[molten sedge]

I think this is an arbitrary limitation with not much benefit.

[faint flicker]

I still say cross posts shouldn't have a thread in #showcase and standalone posts should have a thread title field in the prompt

[civic sky]

bruh, this limitation is not a limitation. It's the default user experience of discord 😂

[faint flicker]

I also assume 90% of people will make a forum post and then crosspost it

[carmine star]

so the 'default user experience' has no limitations?

[molten sedge]

Default UX of Discord? I.e. "pretty bad". Gotcha.

[civic sky]

Okay, so this is what I want to encourage. Auto threads won't be happening, that's a bit OTT as per Ian's suggestion yesterday. Threads will be on a user creating basis

[faint flicker]

OTT?

[civic sky]

over the top

[faint flicker]

oh duh

why not an optional thread title field?

[civic sky]

if someone want to create a thread on a showcase post, they can. Otherwise the default is no thread

[faint flicker]

also my point was that cross posts do NOT have a thread

never

[civic sky]

because discord comes with a /thread command by default so i'm not sure what benefit it would be to make a /thread command for #showcase unless it added to the experience

[civic sky]

I can't control that really

It's a true/false permission on the channel

[carmine star]

what thread command

[faint flicker]

so either anyone can make a thread on any post, or no one including bots can?

[civic sky]

do it in a non forum channel

[molten sedge]

Detect if someone creates a thread on bot-created cross-post and make bot post a warning message that it's better to go into related threads for discussion?

[civic sky]

yeah, but, I'm gonna rework the cross post message to say Discuss more at the showcase thread - #1021555085051957358 so it's clear

[faint flicker]

yeah that makes sense

we can always make it clear there is already a discussion in a crosspost, and if people make another we can just let them know. i doubt it will happen often, tho

[civic sky]

well, the default experience i have in mind essentially means that issue doesn't exist

it's by default no/minimal risk

[faint flicker]

what default experience

[civic sky]

project crossposts

[faint flicker]

i don't see how the problem doesn't exist

[civic sky]

because there's implicitly somewhere clear and active to talk about the project

that doesn't exist with external channel crossposts

it requires investigation to figure out whether it exists or not

sometimes they click - no discussion at all

sometimes they click - a thread

sometimes they click - some discussion scattered between the general chat of the channel

current solution:
No thread - no discussion 👍
forum - click -> place exists immediately to chat about the thing 👍

things are immediately inferable from simply just scrolling the channel

or at least, moreso

Okay, everything is live now

feel free to type /showcase to get posting permission in #showcase

type [showcase] at the start of your post in a forum thread to auto cross post to #showcase

hmm take that back. didn't test something x)

[civic sky]

Urgh, I may need to figure out some way to allow users to edit their crossposted message 😅

[faint flicker]

Nah

[fossil silo]

just to chip in. really enjoying the new formats. appreciate how it all seems to work - i think the tradeoff of loss-of-super-easy-scrolling is more than made up for by stronger discussions potential

[civic sky]

probably best, cause, I have no idea how I would do that without tracking messages 😂

lol

i pinned my explanation post, just for the time being and the bot deleted the "this message has been pinned" post 😅

[misty pollen]

... so after all my whingeing, complaining and the "the sky is falling"... @civic sky 's new showcase is basically exactly as the old one, with a bunch of useful enhancements and tweaks... ... ill consider myself wrong, and will attempt to STFU in the future! 🤣

[civic sky]

Which of the two formats do you prefer? Do you have an idea for another?

[obsidian violet]

personally i find it a bit awkward how the name of the user is all the way at the bottom

[primal parcel]

Could you use Webhooks instead?

This would allow the name and profile picture to match the submitter

[civic sky]

can look into that

[primal parcel]

That is what the matrix bridge does

[civic sky]

I'll see how to do that after i've eaten!

i always thought webhook's required an external server

didn't think it could be used across the same server

[molten sedge]

Add an extra link to specifically that message.

Because opening thread would just put you to last read position, while users also may want to jump to that message specifically.

[civic sky]

hehe, this works. Looks waaay better 😁

[primal parcel]

lit

[civic sky]

@misty pollen turns out cross posting with the author is possible :)

[misty pollen]

nice

same command [showcase] ?

[civic sky]

yea, just not live yet

[misty pollen]

👌

[civic sky]

which is better? the bottom seems better to me but it's not as intuitive as having the discuss message on the bottom

but I can't have this at the absolute bottom due to the way discord handles embeds

[primal parcel]

I think it should be on the bottom

[unique onyx]

to me the top seems preferrable - it tells you, albeit in summary, what it is that you might discuss elsewhere which seems to help context

[civic sky]

yeah, that's my issue. I think if it should be anywhere, it should be at the bottom but I can't have that due to technical limitation, so top seems next best place

cause otherwise the discuss message is kind of "in the middle" of the content

[primal parcel]

You could do two posts

lol

[civic sky]

problem solved lol

not sure why i didn't think of that

@unique onyx

[primal parcel]

Maybe make the discuss more as an embed?

[civic sky]

embed's in this format looks a bit ugly imo

[primal parcel]

ah k

[primal parcel]

Hmm, it isn't that bad

[civic sky]

not that bad, but is worse. At least to me

[primal parcel]

The wording is kinda strange

[civic sky]

Got another suggestion?

[primal parcel]

Continue the conversation at #1021433734110662706

Maybe?

Idk

[civic sky]

that's better than what I have at least, will update

[unique onyx]

yeah looks ok to me

[chrome wadi]

@civic sky Didn't have anything to showcase yet, but have to say current result looks great 👌

[civic sky]

hehe, i really like how things have turned out as well

I didn't think we'd still have a use for a "casual" project general in #1019922106370232360 once #showcase was out but I guess we totally do 😁

[faint flicker]

a lot of people just don't know about cross posting

[civic sky]

lol, i forgot to put that in the /help thing as well

I think I can do something about that

[copper spindle]

If one of us has the time to commit to it it'd be cool to do like a monthly meetup where we just go over haxe roundups and stuff, would be a good place to remind people about that kind of thing

[thorny willow]

i would def be down for something like that fuk yea

[wraith cove]

VC or IRL? I’m down for the Haxe woods retreat in dead of winter where we learn which one of us is man and which one of us is animal when faced with depleting resources in total isolation

But VC would be fun too

Less axes that way

[copper spindle]

yeah prob vc bc renting out the space for a murder mystery is always a big pain

[wraith cove]

I’m running one on a separate server during October actually

Not in Haxe though

[civic sky]

i'm happy to support anyone who wants to organise these things

but the most i can probs do is setup an event and maybe participate if it falls on a day i'm not working 😂

[wraith cove]

If you want I could figure it out I suppose

Google forms or doodle poll or whatever

The Roundup Roundup

My only request is someone put a lil cowboy hat on the Haxe logo

And we make it an emoji

[copper spindle]

hahaha I really love The Roundup Roundup

[wraith cove]

No way else to proceed if this does not happen

Does anyone know the Haxe font

@civic sky @copper spindle these are the direct consequences of your actions

||yeehaw||

[copper spindle]

Now you have to theme it like that bounty hunter show from cowboy bebop

[civic sky]

lol

that's great

[wraith cove]

that's what I had in mind lol

that and woody's roundup

[civic sky]

yeehawx

[wraith cove]

LMAO

we end each meeting with that

[faint flicker]

wasn't this a thing for a while?

i remember doing this and spending the whole time talking about the definition of "bi-weekly"

[copper spindle]

Which of course means doing something twice a week right?

[obsidian violet]

Hahhaha

[faint flicker]

on a note completely unrelated to the concept of bi-weekly, lets meet every other week

[copper spindle]

How about daily every other week

[faint flicker]

on days that end with y

[tardy imp]

Every friday at 20:00 cest

[faint flicker]

i can do that

<t:1665079200>

[primal parcel]

Maybe you should do it on a weekend?

Makes it easier for more people to listen in

[faint flicker]

or someone can record it and start a podcast

also I rarely have time on the weekends, but thats me

[primal parcel]

I would probably be willing to edit them and what not

[tardy imp]

Okay that's a good plan, one of us can record and send it to you @primal parcel and you can put it up after editing.

[primal parcel]

If we use the Discord stage feature I think it will record it?

[tardy imp]

I'd be interested if someone can't do this time, but could do weekend.

[primal parcel]

Discord stage might be really fitting for this

[tardy imp]

Okay wonderful

[primal parcel]

I would be unable to make it at that time unfortunately though

Thursday, 2:00PM EST for me

[tardy imp]

Works for you?

[faint flicker]

Thats what your suggested time is EST

I know because I'm CST

[sick drum]

ill never be able to join...

[tardy imp]

oh that's not good 😦 what time would work for you?

[sick drum]

probably any evening which isnt on friday

[tardy imp]

Saturday at same time?

[faint flicker]

what timezone

[sick drum]

Gmt + 3

[sick drum]

Should be able to make it

[tardy imp]

Okay let's do that then

[civic sky]

Yo guys

What do you think of the idea of having a new category on the server?

[carmine star]

for what

[civic sky]

lua/hl/hxcpp

etc

To me, it seems too segregated

but not sure

[carmine star]

imo those could just be threads in #haxe

like #956928971927339018

[civic sky]

Which leads me into my follow up idea

Turning #haxe into a #1019922106370232360 style channel

but with fixed threads

[carmine star]

i dont think it needs to be a forum channel

there are still general haxe questions that wouldnt really fit into any more specific channel than just "haxe"

[civic sky]

Yeah, it's an idea for the future I guess, just wanted to get the ideas out there

[civic sky]

the projects channel would have a "general" thread within it

but actually writing it out, I don't think it's a good idea, at least for now

[carmine star]

and having lua/hl/hxcpp be threads of #haxe makes more sense to me at least because those are still general haxe (as in not a specific framework) but still more focused

although less people would see them if they were threads anyways

also i feel like it would be more likely for someone to ask something in a "more incorrect" place if #haxe was a forum channel instead of a normal text channel

because i have seen plenty of people ask flixel questions in the #haxe channel, but they might move to like #tools instead because thats the first normal channel they see

[civic sky]

maybe the issue is more to do with phrasing

but that's a reasonable point

[carmine star]

people will ask questions in the wrong place, no matter how obvious the correct place is

[civic sky]

ah this isn't about people asking questions in the wrong place

it's more about giving people a place and organising information

i don't really think the first issue is solvable

outside of occasional reminders

[faint flicker]

@civic sky regarding the FNF rule...

what about

6. Whilst we absolutely love to see new programmers getting started, we DO NOT provide support for individual games. If your problem requires specific knowledge of games like FNF (or others) you'll have better luck in their server.

something along those lines, this might even be too welcoming

The fear is that the old rule makes people hide the fact that thier general haxe or flixel question is in violation of this rule

current* rule:

6. Whilst we absolutely love to see new programmers getting started, we DO NOT provide support for individual games. If you are looking for support for games like FNF (or others) you should go to their server.

[tardy imp]

It's not really hiding it's common to make questions non specific to your exact game.

[faint flicker]

or maybe just, Don't ask questions that assume we know a specific game's codebase already

[faint flicker]

younger, newer programmers/modders often do not know what is specific to their game

they don't always know whether it's a game util, flixel util, or haxe util

and tend to assume haxe

classic example is Paths.image("path/to/image")

[tardy imp]

Sure, then it's useful to show them how they can figure out what comes from Flixel vs Funkin, i.e How do you set an FlxSprite's alpha vs BoyFriendSprite etc.

[faint flicker]

this conversation started because FNF people are often overly cryptic about what they're trying to do, helping them is like pulling teeth because they think if they say "it's for a FNF mod" we'll perma ban them

so maybe we should just append "This doesn't mean FNF questions are off-limits, it just means if your question requires extended knowledge of the FNF codebase you should ask elsewhere"

[molten sedge]

*puts down banhammer* Wait, we wont?

[faint flicker]

lol

[faint flicker]

maybe something like you said "make your questions non-specific to your game"

[tardy imp]

@faint flicker is NotBilly here?

[tardy imp]

I think that's a good system

[faint flicker]

I assume he'll read when he gets here

but yeah, so long as they're not afraid to say the word FNF, but we have the right to say "thats too FNF specific, ask in an FNF server"

[molten sedge]

Phrasing is a bit dodgy. Since you ask a question, it's inherently specific to the game you're working on.

[faint flicker]

"If you're not sure if you're question is specific to your game, framework or haxe, ask and we'll let you know"

[tardy imp]

I say because we started the Haxe round up round up

[faint flicker]

oh

[obsidian violet]

usually Billy announces in #announcements , but he's not here

[faint flicker]

he posted in #flixel a minute ago

[civic sky]

6. When requesting help, you should phrase your question as if we don't know anything about the project you're working on (it may shock you, but most of us here don't know anything about FNF). We can't offer specific project help, but, we can help with programming problems. Condense your problem down as much as you can.