streamchat

[wild glen]

the true y2k bug

[indigo wadi]

it starts the discussion with parelment

[serene valley]

it aims to change/add laws to accomplish their wishlist tho

[indigo wadi]

Sure and there's nothing wrong with that

[ionic sleet]

Are any of them even game developers?

[indigo wadi]

Yes, a couple of em are

[wild glen]

in the UK they got a big "asked and answered" door slams

[indigo wadi]

all of em are gamers according to Josh

[indigo wadi]

k

[ionic sleet]

do they have any experience working on live service games or developing them?

[wild glen]

like, tht's the documented history, what am i supposed to do with a "k" response

[blissful imp]

i mean not wrong. anyone in gaming is technically a gamer. even devs

[indigo wadi]

Probably? There's like 10+ specialists there, so I'm sure most parts are covered of being looked at/being refined

[wild glen]

the parliament said "we've reviewed the petition and have already decided that this is a settled matter"

[indigo wadi]

that was UK

not EU

[wild glen]

tht's what i said??

[indigo wadi]

this is for EU

[ionic sleet]

UK was brexit

if one doesn't rmbr

[blissful imp]

wasn't that 10 years ago now?

or was it 2019?

[ionic sleet]

before covid

[indigo wadi]

jan31 2020

[serene valley]

either way, just as skg reserves the right to ask for these things, I reserve the right to think that what they ask for goes against what they say they don't ask for

[blissful imp]

well yea i know that

[blissful imp]

Brexit started Covid.

[ionic sleet]

I cant even have a civil discussion with those people anymore. they made it impossible to do so. then i have to contend with lack of knowledge on their part, but cant really blame them as copyright law is a beast to explain and Dev work is nearly the same

[indigo wadi]

I'm mainly watching for more information and to see the progress

If ppl wanna be flippant, that's on them

[carmine sierra]

The best way I've seen it put is
They don't care about the process, they just want their toy

[wild glen]

but moopsy all thy have to do is flick a switch and gamers get gumdrops and rainbows and private servers!

my uncle works at nintndo he told me so

[ionic sleet]

at this point im just watching a runaway train eventually going to crash

[coarse python]

Anything of note yet?

[indigo wadi]

Devs not responsible for game moderation after support ends
If a feature is not possible to be brought forward with ending support but is not crucial, then dropping it is perfectly fine
IP rights remain with the person/company unless they sell/relinquish

A few of the legalitise answered

It's honestly a good watch

SKG has bi-partisian support across multiple politicial parties

[ionic sleet]

Got it!

They are trying to build the lego Deathstar without instructions and started by ripping open the labeled packages and mixing all the parts together.

[coarse python]

That sounds... Not bad
Why weren't we this clear beforehand

[indigo wadi]

Because dramanoise

Because now, actual questions can get answered

[worthy ivy]

EU also has some of the most batshit mental bureaucracy mankind has ever created - I swear shit's like freaking Ghormengast... positively byzantine

#nopolitics - I'm talking about the civil employees not the elected MEPs

the machinery of the EU is a nightmare for getting good stuff out of it - GDPR is okay, but has massive flaws no-one has bothered to fix in decades...

so I'm not hopeful tbh
but maybe it'll work out?

[jolly sky]

And unfortunately this is close to the hopium that was advertised from the very wording of SKG in the beginning, and unless there's been some significant edits that were made before it made to this stage, this is what a lot of supporters argue vehemently for and say that is what SKG is all about

[quartz sonnet]

To be real, the initiative isn't even at a stage where it's worth paying attention to. It's at the "Okay, we got the signatures, we'll talk about it" as far as any EU legislative process is concerned.

[indigo wadi]

It certainly feels there's more to it than flip switchng

[indigo wadi]

Seems to be that there's enough people involved for very serious talks and presentation to parelments

[jolly sky]

Which as discussed earlier up this chat, some of the things they want are close to impossible if they also want the game developers to be able to protect the things that they make

[indigo wadi]

Im half expecting a large Q&A follow up

Next step is a public hearing

[quartz sonnet]

This is a normal part of the process. SKG is fluffing this aspect as much as possible. The hearings are what's going to start mattering.

[indigo wadi]

def watching that

[ionic sleet]

I think the only thing possible out of all that is just the always online drm aspect etc. nothing else is remotely possible without dealing with the other stuff

[jolly sky]

Because as much as we want fair rights for consumers, the rights of the developers of both the games themselves and the Software used to make them are also important, otherwise they're not going to make games available at all for the regions that can't protect them

[indigo wadi]

i assume itll be addressed

[quartz sonnet]

RIP to Indie Devs

[indigo wadi]

Why?

let's say it's a SP game. Dev ends updating it, the game is still accessable and playable.

multiplayer games are another matter that'll get addressed.

[ionic sleet]

I think quite a lot of indie multiplayer games take advantage of steam play together etc.. when is steam going to die again?

[serene valley]

when gaben dies

[indigo wadi]

What's an NGO?

[worthy ivy]

assuming Steam just keeps not doing anything special.... never?

[indigo wadi]

When gabin dies prob

[ionic sleet]

so placing an expiration date is off the table

[worthy ivy]

they just do the thing they do and do it well and don't make a fuss about anything else

= profit 🙂

[worthy ivy]

I assume he'll be uploaded to the Steam sub-net and merge with SteamAI to become a ghost in the machine, cyberpunk voodoo style

[serene valley]

so like glados

https://tenor.com/view/gla-dos-suk-gif-26015574

[worthy ivy]

exactly like glados

but with more yachts

[indigo wadi]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/stop-killing-games-is-launching-ngos-in-the-european-union-and-the-us-were-not-just-going-away-on-this/

[cloud island]

glados was the trial for him to do that

[indigo wadi]

They seem to be in it for the long haul

[cloud island]

https://fxtwitter.com/i/status/2026346365580882164

No Text To Speech (@notexttospeech)

Due to the massive wave of backlash, Discord is postponing its global age verification until the second half of 2026.
︀︀
︀︀There's discussion of future features like:
︀︀- more age verification options (credit card)
︀︀- new spoiler channels
︀︀
︀︀Public backlash works, good job everyone.

**💬 255 🔁 1.3K ❤️ 12.5K 👁️ 321.7K **

FxTwitter · Feb 24, 2026, 5:19 PM

[indigo wadi]

https://klipy.com/gifs/surprised-pikachu-1

[serene valley]

barely what people were actually angry about

[quartz sonnet]

It's an international non-profit advocacy group that pushes for legislative changes throughout the world.

[indigo wadi]

Wasnt persona dropped as well?

[worthy ivy]

ooof

NGO is just going to suck up all the lobbying money and funnel it into exorbitant executive salaries 😆

100% nothing-burger certainty if a full on NGO is being set up for it

game over boys, you may as well go home

[indigo wadi]

Ah, well SKG has done that now

[indigo wadi]

If the right people are in, unlikely. Perhaps I'm too hopium

[ionic sleet]

making an NGO is going to destroy them

[ionic sleet]

cause after some scandal happens no one will trust them again

[quartz sonnet]

Wonder who they're expecting to fund them

[ionic sleet]

Doubt any gaming companies will

[worthy ivy]

depends how old you are - if you're young you'll learn
if you're old you should know better and might be on the hopium a bit

but
I do have an open mind - occasionally we do get good stuff out of the EU

occasionally 😆

[indigo wadi]

insert Blame Thor drama

[indigo wadi]

I'm 43. Am I cooked?

[ionic sleet]

Medium well

[indigo wadi]

Like, I'm hopeful, but if it doesn't pan out, I won't be surprised

[ionic sleet]

55+ is stepping into the well done category

[worthy ivy]

pretty sure the big players are responsible for most of the shadow money that's already been spent - if they end up with a load of complicated EU style regs that are expensive to comply with they kill the indie scene dead

[ionic sleet]

Indie scene likely will never die

[worthy ivy]

ooof you're older than me! you should know better than me not to expect nice things! 😆
/j

[ionic sleet]

just not sell in the EU

[indigo wadi]

You're right, lol

[worthy ivy]

am only 41
hhgttg year next year tho! w00t!

this year even

[indigo wadi]

So after watching it, I do feel like Ross only handling the questions during the getting the signature portion probably wasn't the best idea

because things seem more refined now compared to what Ross answered months back

[jolly sky]

Well if its still playable and purchaseable, then there is no problem. But if the game has to be removed from sale because of repeating on-going "renting" of Licenses to Software that the developer does not own and removing it from sale means that the developer no longer has to pay for that license, then the developer should not be forced to continue making the game available if it comes at the cost of an ongoing payment to the Software owners

And also the consumer should not have the right to have the game being freely available if said costs are draining the developer of money for a game they no longer update.

[carmine sierra]

And mandating that games be perpetually available means that temporary software licenses are going to be a non-option, which means higher permanent licensing fees

[indigo wadi]

I'm sure that'll get addressed as well. there was at least one game dev and one game designer in the bunch

[wheat sleet]

Pretty much all AAA games use some kind of paid license, like denuvo, so RIP I guess

[carmine sierra]

And that's the exact problem a lot of us had with the proposal
"It'll get addressed"

[indigo wadi]

Because it will? Expecting it to be resolved out of the box is whack

[carmine sierra]

Expecting the proposal to have details?

[ionic sleet]

With something like this you need at least 3 extensive details by default

[indigo wadi]

Why do you think there's specialists working on it now, getting it ready for parlement discussion?

[carmine sierra]

Because Ross said there was

He said he consulted with people in the industry about it

[indigo wadi]

Well I physically saw them

[ionic sleet]

there should have been specialists when it was first started

[carmine sierra]

Oh wait I misunderstood your question

[indigo wadi]

Again, go watch the conference. It gave me a better idea of what's going on.

[carmine sierra]

My point was more that Ross said he's been consulting with industry specialists the whole time, and yet only now when it's going into hearings is it getting clarified

Supposedly

And this is the exact problem we've had

[indigo wadi]

can't really talk on that as I have no idea. Up until this point, it's been messy

[carmine sierra]

Every criticism about details and edge cases has effectively been waved off with a "We'll fix it in post"

[indigo wadi]

but now that they have a foot in the door, things should get hammered out and made more clear

[carmine sierra]

They've had a year to do that

[quartz sonnet]

Not really frankly, Still vague-splaining what they're purposing and hoping the politicians sort it out for them.

[ionic sleet]

it needed details and a follow up answer to those details if questioned at the very least. which is why the problems started in the first place. It was basically a dartboard

[indigo wadi]

One of the ppl doing the heavylifting is a member of parlement that handles digital stuff, if I understood correctly

[ionic sleet]

there is a lot of digital stuff

[carmine sierra]

People got mad at Thor for "doubling down" on his stance that the proposal had problems
And yet no one batted an eye at Ross doubling down by waving away any problems presented

"Doubling down" only matters when you disagreed with the person in the first place, it seems

[indigo wadi]

this person

[jolly sky]

And other issue that has yet to be addressed in the conference video (still watching it) is what happens when the ability to even host a private server of a multiplayer game requires handing over IP protected code to the masses, and the game cannot reasonably function without Multiplayer?

[indigo wadi]

That wasn't addressed. Likely it's been asked that'll be answered

they're setting up a separate website for that

But yeah, mainly unanswered questions still.

[ionic sleet]

wait they are JUST NOW setting up a separate website? dear lord

[indigo wadi]

Well everything is a go now. Doesn't make much sense to set up something up if you have no idea it'll pass a threshold

[ionic sleet]

all this stuff should have been available a year ago

on a website

[indigo wadi]

a year ago it wasn't a for sure that it'd meet the threshold

[ionic sleet]

thoroughly detailed

[quartz sonnet]

"Don't make games that way!" - Far Too many SKG proponents

[ionic sleet]

it doesn't matter if it went through or not, if its this big you set up your framework

at the start

[indigo wadi]

[carmine sierra]

God I hate how many times I've gotten this response

[indigo wadi]

Might be worth asking them then

[ionic sleet]

Just tell them that "It is currently the most Efficient and Cost effective way to develop the games with our current technology" not that they'll understand

Games not developed this way end up lacking or not going through full development etc.

[jolly sky]

"What if I can't find a source of watercolour paints to make this art with as a watercolour artist?

"Just don't make watercolours lol"

[golden latch]

Dont use a designated physics engine like physX you must write it by hand

[quartz sonnet]

It's been talked about to death and I'm still expecting most of the proposals to get tossed into a trash bin. Think I need to do some Helldiving

[golden latch]

fight well helldiver

[nova bough]

is there a tl;dr of the skg press conference? or is it just a "hey this is still going on" thing

[ionic sleet]

"Don't use "Medtronic" for that medical equipment, build your own"(medtronic #1 med equipment brand)

[carmine sierra]

I still remember when the talk about it was bigger, someone posting a meme about "This will kill live service games!" "You don't have to convince me, I'm already signing it"
On the server for my FFXIV raid team
Just... I really question if they think about what they're saying sometimes

[indigo wadi]

I need to do chores and feed my lil one and then continue working ok qui

[ionic sleet]

im reminded of the wwe image i read where they have a cheer track for wrestlers the fans think are boring, which causes the crowd to eventually cheer through manipulation.

Used quite a lot in politics

[quartz sonnet]

The tl;dr is nothing has really changed and it hasn't even been grilled in front of a meaningful political body yet.

[indigo wadi]

Lol nah

Wrestling fans make no qualms about who they like and dislike

[nova bough]

cool, ty. im waiting for that last part

[jolly sky]

Yea this could have colossal negative ramifications for any and all software if handled poorly

[ionic sleet]

point stands that the crowd manipulation exists which has cought multitudes of people.

[indigo wadi]

Malicious compliance would be ruled against

[nova bough]

see what happens. im still waiting for it to bite them in the ass. but who knows, maybe they'll prove me wrong and come up with not only somehting meaningful, but good for consumers/indie devs

[serene valley]

oh yeah this will definitely not apply to just games if any changes are implemented

[indigo wadi]

That's the vibe I got which is why I'm more hopeful about it

[nova bough]

i dont trust government too much. even less so recently for the UK. their whole 'push for ID / surveillance everywhere' nonsense

[indigo wadi]

A tl;Dr isn't really worth it. You get a good sense of the direction forward with the press conference

[nova bough]

and yet here i am, perfectly happy with the tl;dr i recieved

[golden latch]

Or games will hide behind pre made coding bases that are modular and have a shell owning company that charges thousands a year to license the code as a game failsafe to keep their games.

[nova bough]

i guess tl;dw

[indigo wadi]

You just want the end result. I prefer the process. We are not the same

[nova bough]

LOL

[carmine sierra]

Law isn't made on the process

[nova bough]

ok

good that you know me so well. i didnt know that about myself. i just dont care to watch an hour of them yapping pointlessly when it hasnt gone anywhere yet

[indigo wadi]

I mean you won't watch the conference, so

[nova bough]

that doesnt mean i dont care about the process.

[indigo wadi]

Wasn't pointlessly yapping, but when you have a negative mindset about something already, then yeah, I get it.

[nova bough]

not even negative. just not so interested in it i want to see every morsel of it

[jolly sky]

One the points that was made by the Lawyer in the light grey suit was (and I'm summarising)

"All the company's that sold to and offered their services to the EU had to comply with GDPR and had to spent millions to change their legal terms to comply with it"

What I'm concerned about is an unforeseen consequence that prices out Indie devs, or make the process of making an Indie game unfeasible to begin with, thus making it so that only the big budget Publishers/Developers can front the costs of making games.

That would be a horrific outcome

[carmine sierra]

I remember there was one interview pretty early in on Indiecember that was actually with the game's publisher, since the dev didn't speak English
And he talked for a while about how much of a nightmare it is to make sure the game is compliant with basically anywhere you want to market it as things already are

[nova bough]

a lot of people are worried about that. and thatis what im interested in. the actual arguments in how they're going to make it better for us without screwing the devs

[jolly sky]

And this is just one out of an almost never ending series of branching bad ending paths that have been brought forward about the Campaign as whole, and its just been hand-waved away with a "We'll handle that later"

[nova bough]

to this day, i still think people dont quite realize that licensing and copywrite isnt just a gaming software/code issue... its every platform, every industry. even the "old" one i work in. everything is license or CPU utilization based.

[boreal flower]

"Do you want [to keep devs unemployed]? Because that's how you [keep devs unemployed]."

to meme on that Archer quote lmao

[nova bough]

yup, and thats the part im interested in. the hand wavy stuff they did; actually addressing it instead of the handwaving

[jolly sky]

It's like the above example of "making all software licenses perpetual instead of on-going payments so that the game can still be played after its no longer updated to comply with SKG"

Well if that happened they've now priced out a significant amount of Indie Devs wanting to make their own game, because they literally can't afford the perpetual Software license to even begin.

[nova bough]

it's a whole mess.

im looking forward to seeing how they tackle it. (or watch it get shredded. )

[jolly sky]

And again this is just one out of so, so many holes that can be easily poked into the campaign as a whole, and its very easy to see that none of this was thought about before launching it if even a layman can see the issues

[nova bough]

yeah. lets see if it gets communicated well

[jolly sky]

I'm hoping that some of the Lawyers on the side of the campaign can see the holes and think "Yea this isn't feasible to implement or will have disastrous implications"

[nova bough]

we'll see

hurry up and wait senario

i will laugh my ass off if that happens though

[wild glen]

i went to th store and back an we're still on skg smh

[nova bough]

yea that happens

[wild glen]

lol

[carmine sierra]

It's kinda wrapping up

[nova bough]

someone else will come in and give their .02 bet

[indigo wadi]

That's their job, poke holes and then fix em or get rid of em

A lawyer that doesn't do that is just bad

[coarse python]

I got 5 gold pieces on "ballista attack from the British"

[nova bough]

"FIRE ZE MISSILES"

from the french

[coarse python]

Cuban missile crisis 2 thermonuclear boogaloo

[jolly sky]

Well, unfortunately the only person to state only a few of the easily pokable holes in the campaign that has a decently sized audience got absolutely rallied against and made into a villain, so its up to people here (and likely in other spaces) who can take a step back to talk about it

'Cause there isn't an avenue we can link to and say "Here's someone else who has a sensible take on things"

[nova bough]

yeah. the stuff that went down was insane. and what got me is like... i even heard it from a friend of mine that was like ... "it isnt the point to do that now, the petition is getting misrepresented"

and i was just like ???

[carmine sierra]

Ah yes, the "misrepresentation" argument

[nova bough]

i 110% wouldnt touch the campaign with a 10ft pole.

f that nonsense

[wild glen]

rebrand to slop killing games 🤖

[jolly sky]

As it turns out its pretty easy to "misrepresent" a campaign that is vague from the start.

We even pointed out and posted other campaigns that were succinct and to the point, with a clear cut goal and the methods of achieving it, way before they even made it to the discussion table at the EU

[nova bough]

turns out having a opinion is "misrepresentation" who knew

thats what it comes down to, imo. not supporting it.

[carmine sierra]

The best comparison I've seen is like
People are comparing it to owning a movie after the studio shuts down
But that's not really applicable here, if we're talking about live service games
The better comparison is a theatre performance
Something live that requires active upkeep and staff
A lot of what SKG has in their proposal is effectively saying you have to have a film crew to record the performances for posterity and make the script and props available if you ever stop performing the show, or you aren't allowed on stage at all

[jolly sky]

Yep and when you point this out, its "misrepresenting"

Like how can it be "misrepresenting" when we're reading directly from the words typed up on the campaigns own directive

[nova bough]

the best comparision is how "gaming used to be" ... but gaming used have proprietary hardware, and support ended when they moved to the next gen console.

now, if they just...fully targeted always online stuff so that gaming goes more like how it "used to be" then that woudl be so much better.

but nah thats "too limiting"

[carmine sierra]

And even then, there are a lot of games that by their own structure basically mandate always-online

MMO's, for example

[nova bough]

yeah. mmo's should be fully exempt from this whole thing

[carmine sierra]

Is there a problem with always-online single-player games? Yeah, and Thor said as much in his video
But that's not what this is targeting

[indigo wadi]

MMOs already have an expectation that they aren't accessable beyond a sub, so are excluded

[carmine sierra]

Except that's not in the proposal anywhere I've seen

[nova bough]

yup. always online single player would have been targeted, concise, and an actual easy win.

[carmine sierra]

And I've had several supporters argue they shouldn't be exempt

Since hey, some guy with a rental server can run a private WoW instance, so anyone should be allowed to

[nova bough]

i've heard several supporters not only are ok with, but want mmo's to die, so

[carmine sierra]

Also, what about MMO's that don't have a sub?
There are more that don't than ones that do these days

[jolly sky]

Funnily enough, if the campaign was about "We want Always Online Single Player Games to still be accessible after the developer no longer wants to continue" It would have been near enough unanimous in its viability, understanding and support

Except they didn't.

[worthy ivy]

I suspect this is the plan tbh

all together now in best mafioso voice "nice indie studio you got there... sure hope the big boys don't lobby for expensive-to-comply-with regulation that prices you out of the gamedev space" 😆

[nova bough]

everyone underestimates regulation

and copywrite

and licenses

[quartz sonnet]

Great way to kill the Indie renaissance

Force everyone back into the AAA sphere of influence with few alternatives

[jolly sky]

As it turns out we've been here before.

Anyone hear about a small little company called Atari?

[nova bough]

which would suck. because AAA is so....unimaginative in the past 10-20 years, for the most part

[worthy ivy]

everything is a scam
everything is a lie
there's a pattern to the blag
it's the same scam every time

once you see it you can't unsee it

it sucks

I would love to go back to blissful ignorance

[nova bough]

i do like thor's point that the meaning of scam has shifted in a lot of cases. its no longer an actual scam, but rather just not worth the money

[worthy ivy]

but it's like learning to read
you can never make the letters into meaningless squiggles ever again

[nova bough]

i mean if i take off my glasses i can

[jolly sky]

Responsible for the video game crash in the early 80's because they pumped out any old slop, and they were one of the only companies that you could release games through?

[worthy ivy]

in this case "scam" would be the big players co-opting the regulation to their own ends

rather than a traditional scam

[blissful imp]

you mean the hotel company https://www.atarihotels.com/

[nova bough]

who doesnt want ubisoft to take over all of gaming 🤢

[quartz sonnet]

This is pretty much what I'm anticipating happening, especially since SKG has yet to create a concise goal. Lets the machinations that know what they're doing to steer the ship into the harbor they want.

[worthy ivy]

what even is this!?

[jolly sky]

Like imagine if the only companies that you could release games through was Sony, Microsoft, Ubisoft, Tencent, and Nintendo

God what a lovely future /s

[blissful imp]

Atari is building a gaming hotel in Arizona

[nova bough]

....in one of the hottest places in the US?

that...interesting

[worthy ivy]

I don't think Atari is?
maybe someone using the Atari brand... but it's not Atari I'm 100% certain

[nova bough]

even if it was, they'd probably spin off a sister company to run it. thats how that usually happens.

[worthy ivy]

you know I was just saying everything is a lie? Atari aren't building anything - they just licensed the name

[blissful imp]

technically correct. the original Atari died long ago and went out of business.

the current day Atari is owned by other people. its technically Atari, logo and everything, but not the same people from the old days.

[worthy ivy]

it's all corpo bs designed to give the illusion of a functioning economy

comedian had it right
it's all a joke

[blissful imp]

if this is correct, then the company currently using the Atari brand and name was formerly Infogrames...

that pains me as i remember infogrames back in the 2000's

[silver stump]

from the very top of the atari wiki page

[serene valley]

This screams "we can't find a way to be profitable so let's just do blockchain"

[blissful imp]

So its basically what the image i posted says.

Also.

[worthy ivy]

yeah iirc Infogrames bought Atari's studios and ran them for a while before rebranding everything as Atari
Atari has been infogrames since... idk... maybe 2000 or so iirc?

[silver stump]

yes im saying you can just go to the wiki page and the same info without the risk of hallucination

[blissful imp]

infogrames required Hasbro Interactive in 2001.

that's what it says

[blissful imp]

i enabled search so it can grab results and not spit out random bullshit. which is why in that 2nd image it posts links.

[worthy ivy]

so... why do we need an Atari branded hotel?
seems a bit arbitrary

unless there's OG atari games on the TV and controllers plumbed in and that

that'd be pretty sweet - retro gaming themed hotel rooms... now that's capitalism I can get behind

[silver stump]

ive litterally had it steal code from one website and link another(with no similar code at all) as the source, so i still dont really trust that

[worthy ivy]

"risk" of hallucination 😆

it's hallucination all the way down until you hit the raw linear algebra

and then it's just maths

"just" but you get what I mean

[blissful imp]

i think they said they are doing that?????

right in the FAQ

[worthy ivy]

LAN party spread across hotel suites would kick ass ngl

[blissful imp]

that's code tho. what i'm doing isn't code its search.

i enabled search so it can look for results instead of spitting out random hallucination bs

its a lot safer and better

well for searching

[silver stump]

how do you know though

[blissful imp]

it gave me the results from where it searches and finds results.

3rd image is the search queries

[earnest cove]

catching up on chat. Man yet another one. Every data collection in the name of protecting children were either shown to be incompetent or exploitative

okay i stopped catching up on chat

[carmine sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/welcome-to-the-world-of-tomorrow-futurama-gif-18101283

[earnest cove]

yeah no kidding

[worthy ivy]

this is handy
is why I don't mind Brave's "AI" feels more like a search

it gives you a bunch of links at the bottom for all the pages that it's referencing so you can just skip the AI generated text and go straight to the source

don't need the AI commentary, let me at the OG webpage... I can read damnnit, why do I need a robot to summarise it for me?

"robot! read this page for me!" seems... lazy somehow

[earnest cove]

oh i didn't know brave's ai did that

That bit about penance and people doing better actually reminded me of something. OnlyJayus said the n word 11 years ago, and people remind her every single time she speaks. She hasn't said anything like that in 11 years, but it doesn't matter to people. They still insult her with it daily.

11 years...

[thick ledge]

how long before you forgive someone right?

is it permanent for the rest of thier life like

[earnest cove]

according to the internet seems to be forever

and i seemed to have stumbled across another hive mind

always blaming the other side, in perpetuity, which was exactly what was critisised...

this is in my comments box btw

[coarse python]

mods, post that one image about us v. them explained in a medieval comic

[earnest cove]

oh i want to see that

josh himself isn't immunbe from the unreasonable expectation btw because he didn't play World of Warcraft the way they wanted him to play. Something about going back against his own principles to play MMOs the way it should be played?

[coarse python]

it's been posted around for a loooong time

let me see if i can find it

[coarse python]

it's a political cartoon by Tom Gauld ca. 2015

i now want to see a version of this with thor / skg

[earnest cove]

Oh man this comic is so true

rings even more true in 2026

[thick ledge]

why do people treat him washing his hands of the topic as refusing to "educate" himself

he just doesnt wanna engage anymore lol

[carmine sierra]

They see that as a surrender

As opposed to, you know, people having better things to do with their lives than respond to every single person who asks about it for the rest of time

[forest glacier]

I see a world where a moderator was flipping through channels just chillin... and next thing they know they flip to Streamchat and "250+ unread" 🤣 I can see why they originally didn't want the topic in the Discord. kek

[carmine sierra]

[forest glacier]

I was personally at 268 unread since 9 hours ago

Anyway.. Maybe strim in 3 hour.. maybe no strim in 3 hour..

[thick ledge]

the only response ive seen to this are "nuh uh!"

best i can do now is just hope they dont ruin my indie mmos 🙁 those are my favorites

[quartz sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/beluga-the-cat-hakosh1307-hakosh-beluga-cat-hug-gif-2303802424050479166

[thick ledge]

I KNOW

im so happy for them

ive been pushing every way i can to get more eyes and support on gorgon for yearrrrs

both when i worked for thor and after

[blissful imp]

And yet there's no project gorgon category on Actual pirates, even tho it'd fit perfectly there.

[earnest cove]

whoa an indie mmo that's actually alive

[thick ledge]

everyone should try gorgon

its got afree demo

you can level every skill to 15

[wheat sleet]

Waterworld pirates? https://store.steampowered.com/app/2695490/Age_of_Water/

Steam

Age of Water

Become a sea captain on a post-apocalyptic Earth completely covered in water and go on an adventure in a huge open world. Sail through storms, fight and trade, capture other people's boats or build your own, extract resources from the bottom of the ocean, reveal the secrets of the Age of Water world.

Water post-apocalypse…

Price

$11.99

Recommendations

2760

[blissful imp]

it had its 1.0 release recently

[thick ledge]

im on the dreva server which doesnt have demo players rn but

download game

look past the graphics and at the crunchy meaty mechanics

and the funny sense of humor

what other game lets you discuss antique spoons while your offline with an NPC and get rewarded for it

[blissful imp]

Someone in genchat said they tried the demo and didn't like the movement

[thick ledge]

i mean i guess thats fair

the movement is just standard wasd

AD to strafe, WS forward and back

right mouse button to pivot camera

pretty standard

tab target

or mouse click

[blissful imp]

this is my issue. same thing with GW2. having to hold down right click to move the camera makes things really annoying.

[thick ledge]

gorgon has a cool mechanic where each combat style (you wield 2 at a time which is insane build crafting potential already) is limited to 6 active skills, so you to pick and choose which skills you want thats synergize with eachother

[quartz sonnet]

Always been on the fence with this game. May try it out during its free week

[carmine sierra]

I generally play hotbar MMO's with both hands on the keyboard, and turn with movement keys

[thick ledge]

i play a weather witch animal handler build, weather witch is really powerful but all thier skills are interruptable channels, and AH can tank for me

[wheat sleet]

Imo you'd have to grow up on Everquest to get the appeal of Project Gorgon, so likely it doesn't lend well to <30 year olds

[thick ledge]

so its got good stuffs

also in gorgon bosses curse you

and you have to kill the boss to lift the curse

but some curses are actually beneficial to certain builds

so i run around partially crystallized for bonus damage in exchange for less max hp

[blissful imp]

the skeleton boss that gives you a big head

[thick ledge]

lol

some are more detrimental

like a deer boss that transmogs you into a deer

deer do not have hands

hope your combat skill doesnt require a tool LUL

or you will be mastering the art of fighting as a deer

(or just get someone to help you kill the boss and uncurse yourself but thats no fun)

[golden minnow]

I saw this as a steam review years ago for Project Gorgon and had to save it because it's so accurate.
"It's like being a naked fat guy on a hover board, once you stop caring what it looks like, it's amazingly fun and refreshing."

[blissful imp]

these skeletons suck tho

i love getting ganked by 5 fxcking skeletons

[subtle gate]

"oh look you're awake"

[wicked schooner]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/325213269679931402/1466161262844055648/wednesdaysmol.gif

[livid path]

Just woke up, Thor say anything about the gamejam?

[wicked schooner]

5 games left to judge

[livid path]

Aw ok

So maybe tomorrow

[wicked schooner]

Depending if his back doesnt make him shit and cry, he can try to finish them

[blissful imp]

Anyone know the code?

[wicked schooner]

[vague lion]

https://bsky.app/profile/piratesoftware.live/post/3lbagq7nnck26

Pirate Software (@piratesoftware.live)

Ashes of Creation is an unbearable game. 👺

Reposts

138

Likes

4479

Replies

176

Bluesky · Nov 18, 2024, 5:23 PM

[full brook]

we'll miss ye

[wheat sleet]

Jailbreaking AI for fun: https://youtube.com/shorts/GJVSDjRXVoo

[silver sapphire]

Who’s chipping in on a custom furby card blanket for Thor?

[waxen bolt]

no. Some things should not exist, ever

[vivid grove]

can we recommend/supply you with FurbyPics?

[silver sapphire]

My inbox is ready to die with cursed Furby pics

[silver sapphire]

Good thing Thor didn't see this card:

[wheat sleet]

That looks like some Papa Meat horror

[vivid grove]

Caution Arachnophobia Warning!

[quick rapids]

The face of Evil…

My OG Furby from the 90s, still hanging out on a shelf in my room 😂

[silver sapphire]

It's gonna happen

[wheat sleet]

See if theres a full art version

[silver sapphire]

Your right, so much better. Added a black boarder to make up for the wrong card to blanket ratio

[lament sun]

... what is happening here

[silver sapphire]

History!

[wheat sleet]

The end of it perhaps

[worthy ivy]

hillarious
I tried this once...
... and the customer service rep got quite offended!
badumph

damnnit I've reminded myself of something and I can't place it - someone telling the robot lady they want to speak to a real person and they say "I am a real person!"... damnnit... memory fail... that's going to annoy me all day now

[distant rapids]

Did someone say furbies? I have a few.

I have 9 :3

Oh no wait, i have ten. I have a custom plushie furby i sewed with a custom faceplate too.

Luxury my freak of nature :3

[worthy ivy]

why in the name of all that is holy would you create such a thing?

11/10

no notes

[silver sapphire]

Is one of them... skinned 😱

[distant rapids]

Yep! That's nihilus. He has his fur somewhere, i made him a cloak and a nihilus mask too

I also have a furby knife.

I painted furbies on the handle.

[silver sapphire]

Thats the most unique Furby item I've heard of. I MUST SEE IT!

[distant rapids]

The back is supposed to be just one big Long Furby

I must sleep, but enjoy my special interest art

[tropic marsh]

dont forget the rest https://secretlair.wizards.com/us/en/product/1247722/secret-lair-x-furby-the-oddbodies

[silver sapphire]

omg what?!

I love him

[silver sapphire]

This is amazing

[lament sun]

that honestly

looks like something out of "look outside"

well done

and at this point, even Kingdom of the Dump

[mortal yacht]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qR8bw013m8

its BONKERS!!!!!!

[kindred sedge]

I have a Australian buddy who is unhealthly obsessed with this character

[spice dome]

so we have a 15 minute rant on how Diablo 2 remaster is poor value.
And then 20y old rerelease of a nintendo game is 100% okay?

[wheat sleet]

I remember an article about Russians forming a religion around Gadget from Rescue Rangers

https://www.fanlore.org/wiki/Gaykoslavie

[mortal yacht]

and every time thor says bonkers and i hear it i try to post it but tenor has lost the gifs of the show.

[wheat sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/bonkers-disney-bonkers-bonkers-d-bobcat-bonkers-dies-face-hitting-screen-gif-1787995486485134779

[worthy ivy]

why did we need a D2 remaster?

I've got the original on disc and it still looks epic today, especially now the pixel-art thing is in vogue...

all those little squares at the edges of things gives it a real old-school'y sort of vibe

I'll bet the remaster has really mid-looking modern graphics....? or did they keep the pixely charm?

[wheat sleet]

We didn't, but Blizzard is now creatively bankrupt so they keep on releasing garbage that capitalizes on nostalgia.

[worthy ivy]

did they at least keep the original available?
or have they replaced it with the remaster on their storefront?

[wheat sleet]

Yes, but IIRC it doesn't run on all modern systems and hardware.

[worthy ivy]

oooof it's delisted on GoG
I'll bet you can't get the original
how bad is the remaster?
is it actually bad, or just pointless because the original is just as good?

oh, you can run it with new or old gfx... okay, I'll let them off - Halo remaster let you do that on the fly in-game, it was pretty sweet

and you're right about not running well on new systems

it actually looks okay, maybe I'll file it along with the Halo remaster... completely unnecessary, but not terrible in and of itself 😆

probably still need an old copy for all the cool mods and total conversions

I played one, can't remember the name - was all sci-fi and that, but made in D2

banger - what was it called?

I wanna say Lazarus?

[earnest cove]

https://youtu.be/oRVm_iy2BOY?si=K2jLawOhVB6ASqs6

Talking about social media being parasocial media. Also critism against 24/7 media and constantly receiving bad news around the world

Also how unhealthy the expectation to care about everything all the time always and if you don't care you're a "bad person"

Been in those situations in the 2010s

[jolly sky]

Only on the Internet, which is an entirely different world than the Real

Anyone in the real world trying to care about everything is taking frequent visits to the padded room

[earnest cove]

But university students carry that over into real life

Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing some of the circus going on there

So I guess they're visiting padded rooms

Like the biggest protesters of anything tend to be students, save for a few exceptions

[wheat sleet]

Padded rooms would suck. Imagine having to clean it!

[earnest cove]

I think they have removable sections for cleaning

[jolly sky]

If they're not then they're certainly riding the line. I wouldn't be surprised if the "feeling of having to care about everything" was connected to higher levels of burnout.

[earnest cove]

It's... Actually you're real and right about this. Because i was there too, pressured into caring about everything in the world or else I'm a bad person

[jolly sky]

Bingo, and feeling bad about not being able to do anything to help "all the things" can lead to depression

[earnest cove]

Now I'm that older person who go 'nah take your crap elsewhere'

At some level i still feel the uselessness of not being able to help anything because of my own personal family life situation

Dysfunctional brother things

[jolly sky]

Well in some respects and to be fair to you, that's also his problem to solve

[earnest cove]

My head understands it, my heart however just crushes in the inside. At one point he got into a 2-3 hour argument with my mother about the terminology of what counts as "the first day of the new year", as in the Chinese lunar calendar

Which devolves into yelling and blaming that my mother used the term wrong all the while and so on

He's that kind of person

[jolly sky]

Well, if he can't look at ya know, the date that Chinese New Year starts and go "Oh, well there it is" it sounds like he has to work on himself if he's getting in multi-hourn arguments over it

[earnest cove]

My personal thoughts was "why is my brother so stupid......"

In Hokkien language the first day is colloquially called "chui iit", the first day. He was arguing about that terminology

And I can't even explain why he's arguing because it's like arguing the first day of the new year of january should be something else

Also since the lunar dates are not consistent with the solar calendar, every year the "first day" of the lunar calendar is different and he also has issues with that

[jolly sky]

Yea that sounds like hyper focus on something incredibly pointless

[earnest cove]

It's super pointless

So yeah when the whole "next new thing" happens and there were so many guilt tripping posts on social media to "spread awareness" I'm like "no thanks"

I've become embittered by the pressure to perform

I also became very annoyed when art blogs retweeted war posts

[jolly sky]

I don't think I ever bothered when I was a younger person on social media. I can see a cause and think, "Yea that's obviously bad and I support it ending" but also enough to know that changing my profile picture wasn't going to change anything

[earnest cove]

I bought into the whole "retweet/revlog spread the word" kind of thing. Which does work to some extent because i saw it

[jolly sky]

True, but not much tends to happen beyond that really

Now if all those people who reblogged/changed their profile pictures contacted the people that could do something, that would be different. But the % uptick on that is very rare

[earnest cove]

Yeah

[jolly sky]

It just turns into the next "thing to do just to fit in"

[earnest cove]

I can't explain what and which cause in this room because no politics so i have to keep it vague. It really put me off that a channel about laundry decided to Say The Line on his laundry video

Like cmon I'm there for laundry not politics

[wooden fable]

Hey actiondan what would you personally want to do to help stop game publishers doing things like shutting down games that are singleplayer but are online only and making them unavailable after selling them. What is your personal preferred actionable plan for something like that?

@jolly sky

[wheat sleet]

I think a simple disclosure like an ESRB rating would suffice. "Online only" or "Offline play"

[jolly sky]

Well as long as the rights still remain with the developer/publisher, and that the act of removing the Online Only aspect doesn't turn the game into an unplayable state, then I'm all for just making it available to play and buy.

Like for example removing the Online Only aspects of Assassins Creed:Unity wouldn't change being able to play the game in any meaningful way

[indigo wadi]

I get my news from one person that's pretty transparent about their views once a day and that's it. I try to avoid news otherwise. Im tired boss

[wooden fable]

In this case, assume the publisher will outright refuse to sell further, and instead will just shut off their backend, making the game unplayable. The game in question is single player and does not need the online connection. It is purely a drm system

[jolly sky]

That's the ideal scenario anyway. But there's also the part about whether or not the game has on-going license fees for the software/brands/music/etc in its game. For a big developer/publisher that often isn't a problem as they have multiple streams of revenue, but for an Indie studio the never ending fees could be crippling for them if its forced to remain available.

[indigo wadi]

How does that work with single player games and licensing?

Like i know for GTA Vice City, they had to remove some songs due to not being able to renew

so I'd guess that stuff would get left out since it's not crucial to the game running

[jolly sky]

Well AFAIK at least in Indie circles, most single player games will try to get a perpetual license, or work with software that is free to use so that there is no on-going upkeep

And will typically have in-house music made for the game, so that the rights lie with them

[indigo wadi]

So when does licensing become an issue for the game then?

[jolly sky]

When they use software/music/brands that sell the rights to use that in the game, either as a perpetual license (which typically isn't a problem) or if its an on-going license, thats when things can get messy

[indigo wadi]

What software gets licensed typically?

[jolly sky]

Well in that case it seems to be done maliciously, and the game is old enough to where they've gotten most of the money out of it, so outright refusing to sell it further or making it purposefully unavailable is something that yes, that should be punished and made available. And lets also make assume that the licenses have been paid for perpetual use and there's no upkeep needed in that situation.

[jolly sky]

Physics engines, sound engines, the game engine itself in some cases (like Unreal for example)

And more

[indigo wadi]

Okay. I definitely see the issue with regards to licensing then.

[jolly sky]

Yep. Large issue that has yet to really be addressed in depth from everything that I've personally seen

[carmine sierra]

Remember a few years ago when Unity wanted to charge devs for people installing copies of any game that used their engine?
Stuff like that

[jolly sky]

Ah of course, when John Ricitiello was the CEO of Unity

[quartz sonnet]

Tons of games are built out of dozens of different licensed software. Or Intellectual Property. Or Copy Write material. All of these can have different liscencing agreements.

[carmine sierra]

And even stuff in the same field can have different legislations covering them depending on locality

[jolly sky]

(The person that also broached the idea of charging people to reload their guns in Battlefield)

[indigo wadi]

Maybe those companies will play ball?

[carmine sierra]

A song from a US band isn't necessarily treated the same as a song from a European band, etc

[indigo wadi]

that was a wild suggestion

[jolly sky]

Well the...issue? Kind of. Is that the on-going License fees are cheaper to pay for and use while developing a game which is why its a nice option for Indie devs, whereas buying it for perpetual use can get expensive, if its even offered at all

[indigo wadi]

Definitely curious to see if that gets addressed during the Q&A

[split tulip]

I wanted most of these things addressed a year ago

but it was always "the courts and politicians will figure this out, trust"

[indigo wadi]

I think it's more so the lawyers and specialists that'll come up with ways to deal with it as opposed to the courts

[worthy ivy]

massive chunks of the backend - usually physics - sound management - there'll maybe be some licensed game logic libraries or NPC "AI" code... all sorts of stuff

and that's before you have real world brands and music]

[split tulip]

normally you go to the lawyer with a plan of what exactly what you want. no "something vaugely like this"

[quartz sonnet]

And the core problem is Governments (through taxes) and Businesses make a gigantic amount of money from how these systems work. You need to directly interfere with how these licensing agreements work in order for SKG to get what it wants or heavily restrict how video games are made. The former is dead on arrival, the latter is not good for game development as a whole.

[worthy ivy]

that's just engine stuff

can't escape that

Havok is a good example

[split tulip]

just look at the logos at the bottom of the credits list of a game. those are usually from licensed tech

[indigo wadi]

sure, but we're at today, so no point in saying "thy should of done this...". Better to now focus on the present.

[wheat sleet]

Not a new idea tbh, world of tanks premium ammo is basically that

[jolly sky]

And we're not even going into the mess of multiplayer games that run on servers that the developer doesn't own, and their code is protected by IP/Copyright law as it should be.

That's a whole different mess

[worthy ivy]

yuuuup
there's gonna be worms literally everywhere from all these cans peeps are opening

which is fine

but you know

that's how you get worms

[indigo wadi]

it'll force those things to be addressed, hopefully

[wheat sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/archer-you-want-ants-gif-4558909771686635810

[indigo wadi]

I asked over on the SKG server and one response wasn't great. "let the industry figuring it out"

[jolly sky]

Yea that's been a common "answer". That's how you get bad solutions

[worthy ivy]

and there's the rub
is gonna be a shitload of new regs, all drafted with consultation with the big boys, just to make sure Indie gets squeezed out

[split tulip]

yeah they've been on that train for a while. I'm sure Ubi would be all for filling out Long Term Support form SKG-500, filed with the local notary (and with filing costs). helps keep the competition out

[jolly sky]

And a very common "answer" to almost any hole that is poked in the Initiative.

I said yesterday that we all know something needs to change for the better, but doing so in a brash and throwaway manner is just going to end up in tears, and not for the big name publishers.

[worthy ivy]

don't have to be mystic meg to see how this pans out
in today's clown-world?
we're on some serious hopium if we think anything like this that gains mainstream traction won't be co-opted and corrupted by vested interests

[split tulip]

I hope all the indies teams have their legal council on standby when it comes to filling out the perpetual support paperwork

cause I don't see any way this would go, if implemented, other than more paperwork

[quartz sonnet]

And that's why Thor made his video on SKG. They're hoping someone else acts in good faith for them while their goal is upending the industry. Never let politicians drive legislation 🤣

[jolly sky]

I hope the interest rates are in their favour when they need to take out loans just to even start.

[indigo wadi]

"Well okay let’s say a developers/plushers got a licensing agreement and it last idk like 3 years. They don’t have to sell that game to new people just let people keep the ones they got"

Me: But sin't the entire idea to be able to still acquire games after support stops?

"Our movement is very unlikely change the laws around delisting. We’re more focused on if the game is shutdown"

Me: aren't delisting and shutdown effectively the same?

"no, if you bought the game and it is playable after delisting, consumers can still enjoy their product"

bruh...

[wheat sleet]

Grab ya popcorn, it's gonna be a show

[indigo wadi]

so i guess if the license runs out, can't buy it anymore

which, to me, is the same as being shutdown

but maybe im wrong

[jolly sky]

Problem with that first point right off the bat.

Are they expecting Software developers to give licenses away for free? The whole "They don't have to sell the game to new people"

Well where is the revenue to pay for the "3 year licensing agreement" going to come from?

[worthy ivy]

I am preparing both popcorn and also celebration drinks - most likely I will be munching down on some tasty kernels...

but that said, I am prepared to see at least something happen that might be good?
is a massive roll of the dice, but look at GDPR, for all it's faults it does make a bunch of stuff better (but for every GDPR we get, we get a whole crapton of stuff that just doesn't make sense)

[indigo wadi]

Seems like they don't care if it delists

[split tulip]

and you already have cases of developers having to remove stuff from existing customers, like the music tracks in GTA. are you going to fight the entire music industry on this too?

[split tulip]

I love the GDPR

[jolly sky]

So...they care about game still being able to be played years in the future (going by Josh's words from the Meeting) but don't care about delisting?

Fascinating.

[dusky grove]

Wait, is this the CURRENT wording of SKG? The one they're presenting???

[indigo wadi]

"Unity and unreal are technically free if your not making income"

[jolly sky]

Its the words said by someone who supports it, so don't treat that as verbatim directly from the heads of the Initiative

[split tulip]

I would prefer a delisting to a game not being downloadable or playable

[indigo wadi]

Im paraphrasing, but delisting isn't in their goals

[worthy ivy]

yeah... the cookies thing was one of the bits of GDPR that is... lacking in understanding as to what constitutes a reasonable cookie
ends up being more of a ballache than being tracked
but all the control of information and you can demand deletion of data and that... all good stuff
GDPR is like the star trek movies - there's a few duds, but they average out to be pretty good

(the old ones)

not nutrek

nutrek sux

[dusky grove]

Also, devs havung the ability to cut someone off of their service isn't all cons. If someone is a bad actor for example.

[serene valley]

"us and our 1000 partners care about your privacy"

[split tulip]

which is exactly my point of why you should apporach these things with a solid plan in hand, not just "the user will have to consent, somehow"

[indigo wadi]

Anyone have any examples of a licensing that's crucial for a game being ran?

[jolly sky]

That sounds like an odd thing to not be a goal, considering what their goal is. (If thats actually what SKG wants)

[serene valley]

Some server technologies

[indigo wadi]

so long as the game works, it doesn'tm atter if it's listed or not

[wheat sleet]

Uma musume, they pay to license the horses

[split tulip]

same for sports games. tho usually that just means they don't get new updates to the roster without paying

[worthy ivy]

havok, physx, dma sprite (back in the day), a bunch of stuff that RAD game tools makes, sound utilities, video codecs... basically most of the backbone architecture of the game will be licensed from a tools specialist

most software houses don't make their own tools

[split tulip]

but maybe some sports leagues have requirement that you keep paying as long as the game is playable

[worthy ivy]

they make the thing they make

and buy tools in

workshop doesn't make lathes

[jolly sky]

Prime example, The Crew which kicked this EU version off. An online only Single player game that had multiplayer elements.

The Licensing for the brands and music used in that game were on an on-going license as brands typically tend to offer. To turn that game into a Single player game and to have all the brands available would have cost millions.

Without that, the cars would basically be grey boxes on grey tyres.

[worthy ivy]

the main game-over there is physics

you want physics in the game still, you gonna have to license something

need physics for a game

like need 😆

[split tulip]

I still hope they narrow down to the "stop deactivation of video games throug forced online functionaltiy with no practical purpuse". doesn't really roll of the tounge to. like the modern Hitman games. which are singleplayer, 99.99% offline games that won't let you save progress without being online

[indigo wadi]

Me: And what if the thing being licenses is crucial to the game running?

They (one of the discord members) pasted the following:

https://www.stopkillinggames.com/faq
https://youtu.be/qXy9GlKgrlM?si=ZXBu95GunJsdX0dL

[worthy ivy]

casually rolls their own physics engine to match the functionality of havok just isn't a thing that happens

[jolly sky]

Or, another solution would be to have to pay developers to make Brands that "sound like" the real brand. So for example "Bamborghini" or "Lerrari"

All for a playerbase of around ~200 people

[worthy ivy]

otherwise... why would anyone licence havok if you didn't need to? - 'snot cheap if you're shipping lots of units

at least it used to be

[wheat sleet]

Off-brand games. It comes full circle!

[split tulip]

GTA already does that. but it's also deliberate so they can parody these brands as well, not just something they swap out

[worthy ivy]

but there's cutouts in copyright law for obvious parody, so they can get away with it

[jolly sky]

Yep, but that has to be planned from the outset, which is what they've always done. But for Racing games in particular with the focus being on the Cars and Brands, players want the "real thing"

[worthy ivy]

they just make sure they caricature the design on the ingame models and it's pastiche and thus cool most places legally

[split tulip]

at the same time, it's often not worth fighting about it. so you just make "Bepsi" instead. because fair use and parody is legal defense you bring up during a lawsuit, not a shield against lawsuits

[jolly sky]

Many games did the same with the names of Guns. "Night Hawk .50" instead of the Desert Eagle in Counter Strike for example.

[worthy ivy]

yeah, but your Bepsi bottle can look an awful lot like a pepsi bottle...

[wheat sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/cross-eyed-pepsi-smile-cheers-gif-9508191

[dusky grove]

Also. Say a game that once used liscensed material still uses it after the deal ends. Won't that be like... Copyright infringement?

[jolly sky]

Well I wouldn't go by the FAQ as that is far too open ended and vague to really gleam any information on (inb4 it's meant to be vague)

[worthy ivy]

yeah, but no-one brings that lawsuit
well, nintendo would (and do similar) but apart from them... I don't think any of the obviously referenced brands in GTA sued

did they?

[split tulip]

which is usually why they get delisted then

[jolly sky]

Not as far as I'm aware

[indigo wadi]

Hopefully their next public session answers questions like these

[split tulip]

GTA does not use real brands, so they don't have this issue. they also get to come up with funny names

[jolly sky]

Like Cluckin' Bell is obviously a parody on Taco Bell/KFC

[dusky grove]

I hope they cooked more behind the scenes. Cuz it doesn't seem like many skg supporters in public know the consequences of these demands

[earnest cove]

They already did the ceremony in Brussels btw

[indigo wadi]

It feels like they have but they're playing it close to the chest for reasons

[worthy ivy]

time to stock up on all the original xbox games I don't have copies of

[jolly sky]

Well, its what a lot of us here have been saying, but we're Stonewalled/Strawmanned at almost every step

[indigo wadi]

Link to it?

[earnest cove]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WaACIq0ar44&pp=ygUSU3RvcCBraWxsaW5nIGdhbWVz

[indigo wadi]

oh the press conference

that's not the hand off

[jolly sky]

Yea I watched that, there is no mention of how the licenses part work at all in that meeting unfortunately.

[indigo wadi]

it was more of a "meet the ppl working on this" type thing

[earnest cove]

Yeah the moment you object the PirateSoftware dialogue in their npc programming activates and starts blaming

[wheat sleet]

That's because no one has a concrete solution, and the exact reason Thor opposed it in the first place. You can't make laws with good intentions alone.

[earnest cove]

Oh then it hasn't happened yet. It's just soon

[dusky grove]

Anime opening character introductions

[indigo wadi]

ngl, if josh wasn't involved, i probably wouldn't pay attention

[earnest cove]

Same

[worthy ivy]

people that don't understand technology lobby people that don't understand technology to funk about with how the technology works while at the same time refusing to listen to any of the sensible people that actually know about the technology and how it works and how it is built who are saying this might not be the greatest idea in the world

[indigo wadi]

I feel like he understands the goal better than Ross does

[jolly sky]

Yep, And it just turns into "It'll be handled later"

Like come on, this stuff that is important to at least have an idea about before going in, so that it isn't twisted around in favour of the big Publisher by their lawyers in court

[brisk sparrow]

The hell did I walk in on?

[jolly sky]

A good back and forth

[worthy ivy]

it's the blind leading the blind whilst simultaneously denouncing the people who can see who are saying "mind out there's a big hole there" as liars

[earnest cove]

He explains it a lot better without all the annoying blame game drama lama going on too

[brisk sparrow]

Understandable. I’m looking for context now

[wheat sleet]

The "later" should have been handled "before" so you could answer questions with knowledge instead of vibes

[indigo wadi]

what's being presented isn't law though. It's like the start of working on it to get it formed into law to get voted on

if im understanding it

[dusky grove]

We just wait with popcorn in hand to say "I told you so" Later

[indigo wadi]

he's very diplomatic like that

[earnest cove]

Oh right Josh said that they cannot present concrete demands right away because the other side will automatically reject that as it won't be in their interest

It's legal culture silliness

[brisk sparrow]

Oh I see it now ok.

[indigo wadi]

so i did understand it right

[earnest cove]

So they have to present it vague first to even get into the door

[jolly sky]

Oh, as above the SKG stuff has started again because the press conference for SKG got uploaded, and we're just discussing the nuances of it that aren't being talked about by the people that really should be

[wheat sleet]

It can still be outright rejected if the conditions aren't right

[dusky grove]

It's not a good sign when your political strategy is procrastination. "We'll handle it later" Yeah, like the dishes you said you'd clean last week

[carmine sierra]

!dishes

[dapper raven]

Just do them. Hey, you, yeah you, chatter, you've got dishes, huh? Why are you leaving them out? Do em now! Stop waiting. Go do them. Don't even think about leaving them on the counter or the sink. DO. THOSE. DISHES yarrRage

[earnest cove]

Many people were unhappy about the vagueness and then Josh explained how the law works. It's unfortunate but that is how it is

[jolly sky]

The problem is, is that there has been little-to no detailed discussion even outside of the proposal being delivered to the EU. It's still being hand waved away.

[dusky grove]

No I get that, if you show up with your full oomph its intimidating to the other side

But, at least internally, you should have answers to the common questions

[jolly sky]

Like anything outside of the proposal is free game to talk about and get into weeds of, but I've not seen that anywhere.

[earnest cove]

I wodner if the lawyer said don't talk about it

[indigo wadi]

I don't think it's procrastination though

[earnest cove]

A lot of legal stuff is confidential

[carmine sierra]

Isn't the point to show up with bigger demands and then compromise down with your opponent?
Showing up with vague demands and letting them clarify it sounds like a bad idea

[dusky grove]

They often do

[jolly sky]

Not even a vast swathe of the people who are involved want to talk about the details, in this case the supporters

[indigo wadi]

it feels like a keep cards close to chest thing

[wheat sleet]

It could be intentional. It could be sold to the highest bidder for profit.

[earnest cove]

That method will get rejected immediately for EU

[indigo wadi]

it's a legal mindfield

[earnest cove]

Sounds like lawyer said "shhh" and not even the supporters know what they're supporting

[dusky grove]

I feel like the big publishers in the room are gonna control the flow of conversation

[jolly sky]

Yea but I'm talking about in depth discussions between the people that support it, but are not legally involved. Anyone wanting to talk about any detail just gets shut down and stonewalled

[split tulip]

you don't have to get into legal paragraphs, but atleast agree on what you're campaigning for

[indigo wadi]

I think there's too many voices to push back against the publisher

[split tulip]

you can see other EU propsals, they had much clearer goals in mind

[wheat sleet]

Glue, we campaign for glue

[indigo wadi]

I can only assume the lawyers and other specialists are doing what they feel is required, even if it doesn't make sense to us

[split tulip]

like, is this for singleplayer or multiplayer games? they seem to be going back and forth on it still

[wheat sleet]

No one really knows

[indigo wadi]

the aim seems to be more so to prevent another the crew/anthem situation again

[jolly sky]

AFAIK not for MMO's, but yea normal Multiplayer games are still up in the air

[indigo wadi]

SP games are seemingly fine

[carmine sierra]

And the supporters are still undecided on whether it should be for MMOs

Because I've had a lot of people tell me that should be on the table

[split tulip]

so it's basically the same as one year ago

[indigo wadi]

MMOs aren't included

[carmine sierra]

And that they should be able to host their own private servers

[indigo wadi]

Josh even said MMOs have a definedness

[carmine sierra]

I'll believe it when it's in writing

[indigo wadi]

but

[split tulip]

they have an explicit MMO carveout? or just "it's been discussed"?

[indigo wadi]

that leaves f2p mmos in the air

[carmine sierra]

Oh so it's only for subscription games

[wheat sleet]

Mmos have extensive infrastructure requiremenrs that a consumer wouldn't be able to manage by themselves after a sunset

[dusky grove]

I forget. Do the SKG team have devs among them? Multiplayer live servive game devs in particular

[carmine sierra]

I mean they potentially could, but that's in the realm of like
Dedicated server computers and hardware that you're not using for anything else

[indigo wadi]

from what i understand of what josh said, sub-based mmos have an expected end date tied into the sub, and thus are excluded

[indigo wadi]

Yes

[carmine sierra]

Okay so it's not exempt

Nothing in that says a single thing about subscriptions

[jolly sky]

Well, thats not really a job for Government. That's a job for the Publishers to not force studios with experience in only single player Story RPG's (Bioware) to make a multiplayer Looter shooter.

If you try to force that, then its not going to go well

[indigo wadi]

Sub-based mmos would be. F2P mmos are anothermatter

[limpid cloak]

A thing with that as I understand it, those who run private servers still will need to pay for licensing to IP owner

[carmine sierra]

Again, I'll believe it when it's in writing

[indigo wadi]

Agreed

[split tulip]

that's still really vauge. so will server emulators be mandated? or just tolerated? and looks like MMOs are on the menu then

[dusky grove]

Then what about cases like FF14. Free trial of a set amount of content. Sub for the rest

[carmine sierra]

Because at the moment, frankly I don't buy a word they say

[indigo wadi]

alas, i have no answer

the deep in the weeds questions to be answered at a later time

[split tulip]

this is not a deep in the weeds question. just a purely "what are you even campaigning for" question

[wheat sleet]

F2p also have another hurdle which is monetization. If the system is built for offline play, they cant prevent a player from jailbreaking and giving themselves all the cash shop stuff for free

[carmine sierra]

Or just running their own private server and unlocking everything for everyone
At which point why would you play on the official servers

[dusky grove]

Ngl, skg walking up to this court feels like a bunch of kids accidentally stumbling into a casino

[earnest cove]

Y'know will agk affect web based games?

Skg

[jolly sky]

Oh and in that example btw, "Several MMORPG's that have been shut down have seen 'server emulators'"

One of them being City of Heroes. The server code was leaked a while ago, and the developers decided of their own free will to let it go to the fans. Which means they willingly gave up the IP rights to their work. Forcing that to happen by Law is not the way to go about it.

[indigo wadi]

which, to be fair, is all digital anyways

[split tulip]

like for example "our goal is to make singleplayer games available for generations to come" there. defined

[carmine sierra]

Digital or not, that's how F2P games make their revenue to keep operating

[worthy ivy]

the issue is, the demand is not meetable given how the tech stack works industry-wide

it's a silly as "ban VPNs"... like... how are you proposing to do that?

I fear this will be the same, because there aren't solutions for these issues that the people with the actual ken have been highlighting - its an intractable problem

[wheat sleet]

It would effectively eliminate f2p games

[indigo wadi]

I thought they gave their blessing to run it? Is that the same as giving up the IP?

[carmine sierra]

The game itself is digital
And we're still okay with charging for that

[earnest cove]

Stuff like this

[split tulip]

that's called a negotiation. and likely some kind of license

[ionic sleet]

It also just came to me that I don't think they realize the private server parts? Like thats a security point. we already hate kernal level anti cheats for games but those private servers they want to be able to do can open systems to infection

[jolly sky]

Well to do that they'd have to give up the IP, so that the fans running servers can't be gone after in a court of law.

[indigo wadi]

afaik, there's no kernel anti-cheat with current city of heroes

[jolly sky]

Yep! Private servers mean that people would have to be happy giving over their network information to some rando running the server.

[carmine sierra]

This was brought up to Ross, and he basically said "If someone gets a virus from a private server, that's on them"

[indigo wadi]

oh right

yeah

play at your own risk

[ionic sleet]

okay yup im done thats just messed up

[worthy ivy]

but would inevitably be associated with the original studio that made the thing, even if they had handed off to "the public" many moons ago...

people will still blame the original devs

[indigo wadi]

I mean, that's a risk with playing on any private server

[worthy ivy]

because people are people

and this is why we can't have nice things

[split tulip]

which is part of why companies shut them down. it affects their reputation

[indigo wadi]

even on WoW private servrers, you still risk yourself

[ionic sleet]

Sure but unlike what they want there is a very limited number of them now

who runs the WoW private servers?

[worthy ivy]

I just crystallised how I feel about it all

it's a great idea on the surface, but I don't think humans can be trusted to implement it without it ending up being really really really really stupid

[carmine sierra]

There's still the question of monetizing private servers after end of life
If they're allowed, then that makes incentives to get the game shut down so you can pick it up yourself afterward
If it's not allowed, you need enforcement bodies for that
Which isn't even accounting for the fact that the studio who made it might not exist anymore at that time

[indigo wadi]

keep in mind, i'm not speaking on their behalf or anything

[ionic sleet]

since they supposedly gave permission?

[jolly sky]

And something thats worth reminding, this is a direct quote from Ross as well.

"If somebody does not have an alternate solution but they're against our solution, then they're against all solutions"

So anyone who can see holes in the campaign, means that they don't support any solution, by his words.

[split tulip]

whoever feels like it. it's unregulated and unlicensed

well there are laws

but most servers don't care

[indigo wadi]

with city of heroes, they run on donations and there's no cash shop, afaik

[earnest cove]

That is some cult leader stuff

[jolly sky]

It's also against IP and Copyright. Blizzard owns the server code, and to replicate it is against IP and Copyright.

[carmine sierra]

And if private servers for big MMO's are allowed while the game is running, then that's even worse
Because why would people play on the official servers instead of a private one
Especially if that official server requires a subscription like FFXIV or WoW
Or if they make their upkeep money through monetization

[worthy ivy]

if you're not with us you're with the enemy is the true enemy of mankind

[indigo wadi]

acension wow, turtle wow

[indigo wadi]

Ross really should have a PR dude/dudette tbh

some of his answers aren't the greatest

[carmine sierra]

Yeah, now imagine if anyone could start up a private server of the current build of WoW, and do whatever plugins or unlocks they feel like with it

[split tulip]

I've heard good things about turtle wow. I hope they branch out and make their own MMO from it, cause they cleary have the ideas and the passion. but since they're using someone elses assets...

[ionic sleet]

This is 100% what would happen. some group would definitely end up doing this not to mention game companies doing it to each other

[indigo wadi]

i think ti's more of a cheaper option which i understand

[split tulip]

which usually ends up with you getting sued

[indigo wadi]

acension WoW does have their own cash shop, but none of it is mandatory

[jolly sky]

Well, it sure as hell ain't cheap when they're taken to court

[indigo wadi]

which blizz attemtped but didn't get anywehre

oh it's still ongoing

[split tulip]

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71235075/blizzard-entertainment-inc-v-turtle-wow/

still happening

[indigo wadi]

interesting that blizz hasn't gone after acension yet

[indigo wadi]

yup literally just said

i wonder if blizz deems acension different enough that it's not an issue

[limpid cloak]

Turtle wow devs wrote open letter to get formal license for framework iirc

[jolly sky]

This whole thing is like, making a campaign for Free Water for Everyone, which is inherently a good thing we can all agree on.

But the campaigners didn't even think about the level of work involved. The plumbing, the laws of what pipes are needed, the storing of the water, the land that would need to be dug up, the design of faucets etc.

And anyone pointed out any of these future issues would just get stonewalled.

[carmine sierra]

That's a good way to put it, I'm going to have to remember it

[split tulip]

gotta make it more inflamatory, like End Hunger Now. cause then when poeople disagree you can turn around with "you DON'T want to end world hunger?"

[ionic sleet]

like building a Sewer system during the industrial era

[split tulip]

that is one of my inital complaints about this movement: the name

[jolly sky]

Well yea I was hoping to avoid the imflammatory side of it, but that definitely did happen

[indigo wadi]

well, no idea when the hand off is supposed ot be

next 3 months maybe?

Oh, there's an update

https://www.reddit.com/r/StopKillingGames/comments/1rebyrg/stop_killing_games_joint_press_statement/

https://www.reddit.com/r/StopKillingGames/comments/1rdvz12/ea_just_confirmed_they_are_globally_revoking/ oh look, EA being scum again

[split tulip]

didn't they shutdown Anthem already? what would the license even be for?

[indigo wadi]

they shut the servers off yeah

but I don't think anyone expected them to delete transaction orders

[split tulip]

so they're not mad at servers being taken down, but about a license on paper?

I don't seew why EA would need to do that. but also no real difference

[indigo wadi]

well they are mad about servers

[jolly sky]

Like when it comes to Anthem, while it looked pretty cool from trailers and such, my warning alarms were ringing when I found out it was being made by Bioware, a studio that has no prior experience in making Multiplayer Looter Shooters

[indigo wadi]

but now erasing proof of having purchased the game at all

[jolly sky]

And I don't blame Bioware for that, I blame EA

[split tulip]

well you never owned it. you had a license. like all software. like steam

[gray fable]

What is going on?

[indigo wadi]

It'd be like Hondai coming in and burning proof of you owning your hondai car

[jolly sky]

Chattin' and yappin'

[split tulip]

no, that is a physical item. software is a different beast

[indigo wadi]

Sure, but the idea is the same. If you're purchasing software, you should be owning it. None of this licensing nonsense.

[jolly sky]

Deleting purchase information about buying Anthem does feel like a really unncessary and malicious action however

[indigo wadi]

Adobe is atrocious for this

[limpid cloak]

Does erasing transaction orders will make impossible to get a refund?

[indigo wadi]

the licensing stuff that is

[split tulip]

you cannot "buy" a game. you can pay for a license to it. it's not like normal property. steam games cannot be passed down to your children, it's in the ToS. you can be mad about that, but that is a wider licensing issue

[indigo wadi]

Effectively, yes

no proof, no refund

[indigo wadi]

I don't care.

You buy something, you own it, period

[split tulip]

were they giving refunds?

[indigo wadi]

that's how it should always be.

[split tulip]

oh, we're back here

[carmine sierra]

If you buy a ticket to a stageplay, do you own the play?

[split tulip]

this is the reality of software

we really are looping

software works diffrently than phyiscal items. this is reality

[indigo wadi]

Buying a ticket to a play is not the same as purchasing a video game.

[split tulip]

you first have to accept that before being able to discuss any of this

[jolly sky]

You cannot own software unless you make it. By making it, you own the IP and Copyright to it. The same with a game.

[indigo wadi]

and that should be fixed because it's clearly a broken system

[split tulip]

they're more alike than you think

[carmine sierra]

When it comes to live-service stuff that requires ongoing operations on the back end, then yes, it in many ways is

[split tulip]

that's not what this campign is for. that is HUGE fundamental isseue

[indigo wadi]

Like I understand there's many layers to it

[indigo wadi]

I'm not talking about the campaign though

not with this

[split tulip]

even DVDs have licenses

[indigo wadi]

the EA thing is seperate

[jolly sky]

Well, the same goes for CD's and DVD's. Sure you own the physical disk, but you don't own the movie or the song. And if you misuse it by going against the Usage rights printed on the back of the case, you can get taken to court and sued, of if the company who's sueing you is feeling really nasty, they can take it from you.

[indigo wadi]

im probably getting all up in my feels tbh

[split tulip]

if you want to talk "digital ownership" you have to talk licenses

[limpid cloak]

This is a thing with software and digital distribution, someone should keep all data on some servers, even GOG for example
So if GOG will shut down tomorrow, you will effectively lose access to games you have on GOG account because servers are down, despite them being DRM free and you can just download them and keep them forever on your drive

[jolly sky]

Yep, sadly there is no way of avoiding that

[indigo wadi]

Okay, so what about car companies that lock features behind subscriptions?

[split tulip]

different, but shittty practice none theless

[carmine sierra]

Not illegal, just a bad business practice

[split tulip]

don't buy those brands

I ain't touching that

[jolly sky]

The car isn't a digital good, and neither is the feature. If you found a way to enable it without purchasing the subscription it would work just fine, but if the company found out you did it, they would go after you for it

[split tulip]

I drive a 14 year old car

[indigo wadi]

When does it become illegal? A sub to buckle the seatbelt?

[split tulip]

should subscriptions be illegal?

[jolly sky]

When it impacts safety, which none of Sub features do.

[carmine sierra]

Still technically not illegal, unless you get into the argument that it would prevent people from following safety laws if they can't afford it

[indigo wadi]

Not sure why you're answering with a question.

[carmine sierra]

And even then it would have to be argued in court

The short answer is that there isn't a defined line, because there's very little legality regarding subscription restrictions

[split tulip]

becaues it's about where you draw the line

[carmine sierra]

We see more of them these days because modern digital infrastructure makes it piss easy to nickle and dime everyone

[indigo wadi]

emergency services feels like it crosses a legality line

granteed im thinking 911

[carmine sierra]

I'm pretty sure that means the systems that auto-dial 911 for you if it detects a collision

Or Onstar or whatever

[indigo wadi]

That seems like it should be free?

[carmine sierra]

There's no legal mandate to have those systems at all, so there's no legal punishment for charing for it

It would be better if it were free, but that's a separate issue from legality

[split tulip]

you don't have to have it, it's an extra you can pay for. and the call system does cost to operate

[carmine sierra]

There's a pretty wide gulf between what's morally good and what should be legally mandated
And where the line gets drawn between those is generally up to opinion

[split tulip]

if you start mandating companies charge nothing for services that cost money to run, you won't have companies around much longer

that ain't feasible

[jolly sky]

There isn't a single part from that particular screenshot that is car safety related. Especially since there's no details of what "Safety Connect" is.

[indigo wadi]

car companies did just fine before locking features behind subs

[split tulip]

seat belts do not have operating costs, to the original point, which is why a sub makes no sense

[indigo wadi]

I was more so asking at which point does requiring a sub cross a legality issue

and used that as an example

[jolly sky]

When it interferes with safety laws, and the actual operation of the vehicle

[split tulip]

the heater and the SOS call are two very differnt things there. one is a system already in the card and the other requires infastructure upkeep and operators

[carmine sierra]

Yeah, by not having those features in the first place

[indigo wadi]

so then saying that there wouldn't be companies around much longer is just incorrect

[carmine sierra]

Less that you won't have companies, more that they won't offer those features at all, sub or not

If something requires consistent upkeep and they aren't allowed to charge for that, then they just won't do it at all

[jolly sky]

If people don't buy the cars that have those Subscription models, the company will turn around on making cars with subscription features.

[split tulip]

my point was about mandating systems with upkeep costs, like servers, without being able to charge a fee for it

[carmine sierra]

I think the question is more about, "If you have this feature, it can't be a sub"
So then they won't have that feature

[split tulip]

I don't know where this is going anymore

[carmine sierra]

Same, we kinda derailed 😛

[jolly sky]

Yea mandating that by law is not the way to go about it. And to tie it back to games, no developer or studio big or small, is going to willingly allow a system, or something that has constant upkeep to be used for free that is bleeding them dry

[indigo wadi]

yeah i dunno what prompted that initial line of questioning. My brain goes off on tangents

28ish hours till midnight early access 😄

[carmine sierra]

I know the feeling

[tribal canyon]

so fun fact, UK's eurovision entry this year once made a Furby Organ

[rapid scarab]

wich one

[tribal canyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLBjScgb7o

[indigo wadi]

Do you want the gates of hell? that's how you get the gates of hell

[serene valley]

just send the furby organ

[mortal yacht]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yLGAsVyZNnk

[indigo wadi]

i need to be more apathetic

[earnest cove]

I linked this earlier here too and I like how Josh articulates nuance which is a very rare find nowadays. He's right on the money that students are the primary target to get recruited and farmed, with studetns peer pressuring others into caring about everything.

I was in that enviroment. Although I wasn't a student in a student group, my peers were college/university age and they were high on 'if you don't care about this you're a bad person'

[warm trench]

What if the furby organ played a tritone? We'd be dooomed

[worthy ivy]

this is where a touch of nhilism helps
not a lot... that way lies existentialism 🙁
but just a touch
like maybe 10%?
😆

innoculates you against 'if you don't care about this you're a bad person' quite effectively

[earnest cove]

no thanks on nihilism it takes me to really bad places

[worthy ivy]

that's why I make sure I only do a little bit of that
just a tiny taste

[minor nymph]

Everyone thinks the sky is falling all of the time.

Just make cool shit, eat good food, hang with good people.

[tender field]

[river cargo]

And turn off the news as well! News media likes to fearmonger about ww3 every day

[mortal yacht]

im fighting papa nurgle rn

https://giphy.com/gifs/mrw-pull-infront-e37RbTLYjfc1q

[rapid scarab]

we should practice the milenary tecnique of not giving two flying ducks

[wheat sleet]

https://youtu.be/PvipXYpkMQ8

[blissful imp]

we've been talking about it already. i shared the tweet.

[coarse python]

Or at the very least, pick and choose your battles.
Not everything needs a response at first, or at all. Frees up [mental] energy for yourself and for when something comes along that does require action

[ionic sleet]

How the hell does gabe do it? he sits there and does nothing an wins hands down.

[coarse python]

the competition is shooting itself in progressively more vital areas
that and [anti-corporate rhetoric]

[ionic sleet]

They would actually have a chance at winning by going after the people gambling on whether gabe wins a lawsuit or not.

[indigo wadi]

Really great lawyers

[coarse python]

ohhhhhh you mean in a lawsuit way not an economic one
yea idk

[wheat sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-made-creator-stolen-gif-20229431

[distant rapids]

If for any reason this gains traction, it will be SO FUNNY for publishers to suddenly realize their lootboxes were outlawed because they tried to bite at valve

[wheat sleet]

In the laws of New York it does pass legal muster to be classified as gambling, but technically it isn't being sold in New York.

Also the value of skins is a speculative third-party marketplace that Valve makes no money off of, so it's going to be tough to prove.

[distant rapids]

No yeah the thing they are trying to do is complete bs, i was just spitballing

[wheat sleet]

You would think that, but I'm willing to bet that the lawsuit succeeds, only for the value of the sold lootboxes and not the third-party skin values.

[indigo wadi]

Attorney Generals are unlikely to proceed with a case unless they know they can get the result they want.

[wheat sleet]

They also get to pick their judge which doesn't do the defendant any favors

[indigo wadi]

"James' office alleges that Valve assists in the online sales of the skins either through an in-house marketplace or third-party marketplaces. "

This'll be the sticking point that'll make or break the result of the lawsut

I'm curious to see her reasoning for Valve assisting with 3rd party market place

[wheat sleet]

It's probably the same as any authentication service

[wintry pond]

did they give any examples?

[wheat sleet]

Yeah, a skin that sold for 1 million usd

[indigo wadi]

"or by connecting their accounts to third-party marketplaces, the latter of which the attorney general's office says it found Valve "facilitates and even assists."" hrm

[wintry pond]

was it a valve product or was it another game that used steam as a store?

[indigo wadi]

CS2

TF2 and Dota 2 specifically named

[silver stump]

https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730&price_min=100000 are they talking about this?

[indigo wadi]

yup

[silver stump]

well that is official

not 3rd party

[indigo wadi]

they do make mention of 3rd party though

[wintry pond]

does it give any advantage or is it just a skin?

[silver stump]

which is weird but dont forget about the steam marketplace

[wintry pond]

cause CS has a lot of expensive cosmetics

[silver stump]

just a skin

[indigo wadi]

https://www.ign.com/articles/new-york-attorney-general-sues-valve-alleging-its-loot-boxes-illegally-promote-gambling

the reasoning is because the market exists, the loot boxes promote gambling as a way to profit

or osme such

[wintry pond]

wait, wats steam min age? 13?

[indigo wadi]

think so

""In Valve’s most popular game [Counter-Strike 2], the process resembles a slot machine, with an animated spinning wheel that eventually rests on a selected item. The randomly selected virtual items have no in-game functionality but can be sold online for money, with one item reportedly being sold for more than $1 million. The lawsuit alleges that Valve has made billions of dollars luring its users, many of whom are teenagers or younger, to engage in gambling in the hopes of winning expensive virtual items that they can cash in on. With this lawsuit, Attorney General James seeks to permanently stop Valve from continuing to promote illegal gambling in its games and to pay disgorgement and fines.""

[wintry pond]

personally I dont think its right to make the whole internet a safe place for EVERYONE. we should put more responsability on the parents who ignore their kids all day

[indigo wadi]

Your'e right

alas that isn't how the world works

[wintry pond]

if you cant control or monitor what your child does, thats on you

[indigo wadi]

it's easier to go after companies than go after parents

oh for...

are we STILL on this debunked theory?

[quartz sonnet]

They must still think normies believe it

[indigo wadi]

Pretty much sums it up

[brisk sparrow]

they also recently somewhat crashed the CS2 market prices

didnt they?

[brisk sparrow]

oh so theyve just nullified their entire argument (at least in my eyes). this "theory" is the kind that immediately makes me stop listening

[coarse python]

oh come on already

[dusky grove]

That last bit is funny to me.

America vs MLB. Baseball cards are gambling

[wheat sleet]

Wait until New York hears how much Genshin makes on gacha

[dusky grove]

Wait til new york hears about piñatas

[mortal yacht]

i think they know it but its like doing a meme at this point

[indigo wadi]

Bad idea to meme on a lawsuit

[wicked schooner]

"Your honor, I was just memeing"

[mortal yacht]

exactly. i think they are just doing the tried and true course at this moment.

[last plume]

Now this is really worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoag03mSuXQ

[indigo wadi]

a shame

[blissful imp]

i missed most of the stream yesterday. did he actually say no stream today? i know its thursday, but he missed most of the week due to his back pain.

Apparently he played Windrose yesterday as well... when? timestamp would be nice.

https://tenor.com/view/cat-displeased-why-gif-23196230

[ocean agate]

at end of stream he said he wouldnt be on today, he said something about it being his day off and that when he got back it would be the end of mankind.

[blissful imp]

releasing very soon however there is a demo rn to play.

[worthy ivy]

win or lose, lawyers get paid either way

if they can drag it out a bit longer by memeing and pretending to not understand how the world works... more pennies in their pocket 😆

[wheat sleet]

Wouldn't MTG cards be the same as loot boxes in that sense?

[worthy ivy]

yup

[wicked schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/thor-lightning-chris-hemsworth-hammer-gif-14333403

[wicked schooner]

Chat, reminder to bring your corporate translator to your meetings so you wont get lost in the corporate lingo

https://youtu.be/q9TqQnDlbfE

[indigo wadi]

https://youtu.be/0djJ6OTB5q8 LOL

[wicked schooner]

I mean statistically almost all slurs and gated words are in english so why not just block the language entirely
Problem solved

To be real, this reminds me of that one joke from therussianbadger lol

[dusky grove]

The future

[wicked schooner]

https://youtu.be/xKXDwUABs4o

[wicked schooner]

End of vote where windrose wins
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2707180400?t=5h42m42s

[rapid scarab]

it is thursday, so unless stated otherwise asume no stream

[coarse python]

fun economics fact: overall unemployment should never be zero. if it is, Uh Oh

[tribal nest]

Wait, why shouldn't it reach zero? Is it because that would mean there nobody to fill new job offerings?

[minor nymph]

Hrmmm