streamchat

[nova bough]

a plushie

[brazen drift]

remember its only an echo chamber if its protecting someone you dont like, if the echo chamber is to shit all over them then its perfectly fine /j

[round cedar]

Buzzkill

[lapis tartan]

It can be a struggle to remain yourself and not let the data be your persona? When I step away from this stuff, I make dinner or watch it rain outside and hope it doesn't flood in this part of texas too.

[wind hare]

Go into a chat about sewing, "You all like sewing! Echo Chamber! Get an outside sewing opinion!"

[nova bough]

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/green-mile-im-tired-boss-michael-clarke-duncan-gif-16875499

[wind hare]

"This ferret chat talks too much about ferrets and doesn't talk about the negatives to their existence! Rabble Rabble Rabble!"

[rain widget]

What happened to the stream? Stream ended early and VOD got deleted? been away for the past 4.5 hours

[tacit hare]

I saw that too and was perplexed why a C++ was talking about his code.

[kindred axle]

I was wondering about that too

[flint ember]

TBH I don't think that holds up. He was arguing against one coding methodology with another. The issue was that he seems like he just came to be hostile

[lapis tartan]

I hear him say that in my head and it always hits me...

[summer night]

people commenting on how other people do code will never not be funny knowing how half the code in curtain areas are built

[wispy plover]

Thor was up for 24 hrs and vod likely got nuked to prevent out of context clipping

[wind hare]

Its just common for people who use that term to just use it when they are trying to start drama

[tacit hare]

I cant wait for July to be over for all this to end. The bashing is childish and pathetic.

[kindred axle]

people really gotta move on.. I get it, it's easy content but from our perspective it's just exhausting

[nova bough]

all ill say, is ill never comment on anyone elses code and how its set up. because mine .... well. mine is "special"

and being back end, and my things never see the light of day, so i dont get code reviewed

[brazen drift]

from what i can tell is that coding is a lot like Art in general. EVeryone codes a little bit differently, but to tell other people how you should and shouldn't code is gross just like i wouldnt tell someone else how to draw

[lapis tartan]

Maybe not prevent fully, but to keep it from getting out of hand. Or maybe OCD hit while sleepy and didn't like a short video among the other 12 hour titans. I know I can get weird like that.

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/i-couldnt-agree-more-john-krasinski-saturday-night-live-youre-absolutely-correct-thats-right-gif-20212746

[serene valley]

I mean I partly do tell others how to code

cuz I also gotta deal with their code so it better be somewhat good

[toxic rampart]

Half the world is burning but we gotta focus on bad Internet man that said "ass".

[lapis tartan]

I will say, he picked a hell of a name to be casting stones, right?

[nova bough]

mine is like "does it work? yes? cool, im done"

[wind hare]

If you are doing anything as a team, things should be agreed on. Like acronyms. There are acronyms you don't use in your SOAP notes because they could mean multiple different terms.

[wispy plover]

In order to move on, free thinking, critical thinking, and breaking away from hive mentality would have to take place. And you know... the whole learning how to not be horrible people doing horrible things.

[summer night]

mines does it work? yes? how? why?

[wispy plover]

Time for me to make a smoothie.

[brazen drift]

Yeah but you know what i mean. obviously coding has more restrictions than art does but its the same general principle of "i code/art this way, i teach people to code/art this way, but not everyone codes/draws this way"

[nova bough]

oh! i once had an argument over a python enviornment var. i named it $ENVS - they complained that it shouldnt have a S at the end because that would make it plural.

[jolly sky]

Oh my god lmao

Just

[kindred axle]

well, with the stream gone I guess I'll just do it here then: !dishes

[jolly sky]

jeez

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/excuse-me-scuse-me-looking-around-confused-who-gif-6077244

no dishes then

[nova bough]

it went over my head, beause my brain couldnt comprehend that was their actual problem. and then i understood, and it took all of my power to not just be like "are you kidding me"

but the "are you kidding me" woudl be more colorful. but automod doesnt like colorful

[jolly sky]

A problem so miniscule and pointless that it didn't even register lol

That's how you know someone's trying to look for the needle in the haystack

[serene valley]

ngl I would def dislike that environment var name

like it's easy to confuse with ENV

or am I misunderstanding what it is

[onyx gate]

You don't get code reviewed? Do you have PRs?

[wet coral]

But you forgot. You need to be part of a hivemind to be cool and normal these days. All those critical self thinkers are weirdos.

[umbral gazelle]

i was bored and had to much time on my hands That nico guy. Hes part of the stormgate as am i. He thinks the third faction should be removed cause he doesnt know how to counter it. and complains people with lower MMR than him beats him.

its kinda scary how everything we ever write on discord exists

and is public

[nova bough]

in python, you can have different environments. you have to initialize the enviornment before you use it. the var is defined to standardize the initialization for a bunch of one off python scripts

[umbral gazelle]

and you can just go look it up

[jolly sky]

That explains a lot

[nova bough]

nope, because my job title isnt anything in "software development" - my job is about maintaining the back end systems (specifically mainframe enviornments)

[umbral gazelle]

why i brought it up if you think a third part of someones game deserves to be removed because you suck as a player i dont take someones programming take seriously

[serene valley]

a bug snuck through code review today that basically made an improvement we made not work at all

twas fun

[umbral gazelle]

Anyway be careful what you write on the internet everyone! nothing is private!

[flint ember]

I have no strong feelings one way or the other!

[wet coral]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-neutral-gif-8034848

[flint ember]

BEIGE ALERT

[jolly sky]

Like am I gonna complain that someone chose a Hero in Dota2 that counters mine?

Yes but I'm only going to complain to myself and not going to advocate for its removal, and join the official Dota2 Discord or whatever to throw shit

Like who has the time or the care to do that

[onyx gate]

I see, so what kind of code do you write?

[nova bough]

we have a small tool that is a bunch of little scripts that automate our daily tasks. I also make a lot of reports, and scripts to check for misconfiguration

mostly in python, but theres some rexx mixed in (rexx is a programming language that ive only seen on the mainframe.)

[flint ember]

It's so much worse than that.

"This guy did something I don't like! For that, I shall complain about his unreleased, solo dev code that has no effect on my day to day!"

[flint ember]

What is this "the mainframe"?

[nova bough]

the mainframe is a computer/server that predates modern PCs or servers - it runs on an OS called z/OS, made by IBM. It is a completely different architecture than x86.

you'll mostly see older and large companies using mainframes. mostly in finance, healthcare, and government.

[umbral gazelle]

Im not a coder but isnt self explained code bad cause you actively remove the teaching/learning moment for a new coder and it could just let Bosses fire devs without warning since they dont need them to train or explain the code to the new lower paid guy?

[flint ember]

Ah, neat! I'll have to read up on this.

[umbral gazelle]

i have always been told dont explain what your code does cause it takes away your job security

[serene valley]

it's a bit of both

also, I would imagine if you get back to a project you need to also understand your own ramblings

[flint ember]

No stop it.

Self documenting code is definitely a good thing. Comments can be used in addition where needed.

[proper nacelle]

You say that as if devs wouldn't be fired at the drop of a hat, regardless of their position to explain code to the 'new guy' or not

[nova bough]

if you're in the US, it's been mentioned semi recently - just not by name. When DOGE was poking in the IRS, the old legacy systems that they were talking about were mainframes .

[serene valley]

we currently do not have the previous dev on board anymore and it sucks

[umbral gazelle]

Yes but after you get fired you have leverage cause you are the only one who knows how it works

[proper nacelle]

...and thats how you start getting blacklisted from companies because you become known as someone who can't work in a team

[flint ember]

If you write code like that, you won't last in the first place

[umbral gazelle]

hm good to know

as a i said i have no experience in the field

only been told things

[hasty grail]

think of it this way, can you remember how the code is suppose to work in 10 months after working on unrelated crap if you need to go back and bug fix it?

[proper nacelle]

Code should be self-explainable if possible. If it's not possible to do so, then thats where comments should step in to further clarify

[hasty grail]

by commenting on it you are also helping your future self

[proper nacelle]

You don't need to comment every single line of code

[winged knoll]

There's a thing called code reviews, there's usually a senior dev who's reviewing commits

[nova bough]

this x10000

[proper nacelle]

(I used to do this and got proverbially laughed at, whilst at uni because of imposter syndrome)

[nova bough]

i usually end up commenting blocks of code, unless im doing something extra weird on a single line.

[hasty grail]

also more than just "this is a for loop"
"the intent of this section is to do X Y and Z" "this sub section is suppose to do Q and U which then passes the variable back to Z"

[gentle mortar]

For those, who read after

[winged knoll]

So usually these type of things doesn't get away in a normal settings, unless you are working in a start up and you are 1 solo dev whos working on every project

[warm trench]

Feeding from your own trough usually helps you strike a balance of writing a training manual/operational manual (should not be in code) and writing highly optimized code with no real indication of what the need was in the first place. As a senior developer, optimized doesn't always revolve around just programming priciples.

[proper nacelle]

ditto, maybe a comment when calling a complex function to explain why you're calling it or such

[umbral gazelle]

I guess my line of work are just pretentious assholes then xD

[proper nacelle]

Whats your line of work, perchance?

[muted robin]

i understand how SKG was named to be self-explanatory and eye catching but man is it annoying how simps online now use it as rhetorical shorthand to go "oh you have questions about stop killing games? why do you want to kill games?"

literally the same thing politicians do making pork barrel legislation type bills called "save the children act" and then go "why are you accusing me of corruption, do you hate children"

[hasty grail]

think of it this way, do YOU want to read someone's comments when you are trying to bug fix their code?

[umbral gazelle]

i work as a CAD/CAM programmer (this type of programming has nothing to do with coding though) and machining industry

[worthy ivy]

finance! good times

interacting with a system through a new graphical frontend for a legacy interface layer that's talking to /another/ even older interface layer on a blade server that's been tricked into thinking it's actually an 80s mainframe

[umbral gazelle]

i would more call it CAD/CAM user not programmer but eh what ever the title says

[lapis tartan]

I personally would, as I'd like to know what they were potentially thinking in that moment? If I'm bug fixing their code, I might as well help bug fix their thoughts too?

[umbral gazelle]

You can call me imposter programmer. xP

Although i do have a decent understanding of how code works and the different functions it does.

i cant code as such

[muted robin]

it's a no win scenario no matter what when you're this surrounded by a hate mob

[worthy ivy]

nah, you programmer
CAD/CAM programming is programming
not all programming is coding

[proper nacelle]

(apologies for the bluntness) but essentially a 3D modeller

[umbral gazelle]

Pretty much

i dont refer to myself as a programmer

unless my firm wants me to

cause you know

it sounds fancier

[last knot]

(dont want to derail the conversation but) for me "yknow im pro consumer rights" sounds the same as "im against poverty"... "very good here's your brownie points are you gonna help find a solution that doesnt ruin everything or its just moral grandstanding?"

literally the same level of arguing... emotional manipulation... they are so much the good people that they feel like they can attack everyone (im not talking about every SKG supporter just the insane ones lol)

[umbral gazelle]

"oh here is our CAM programmer"

[umbral gazelle]

I mean i guess i can see where you come from but it doesnt feel like programming xD

[nova bough]

how most companies do it (to my knowledge) is all the applications with a pretty UI - customer facing things run on the cloud. Then those apps call the ugly mainframe that takes the request and gets it done super fast. cause mainframe is good at transaction based processing, and file i/o read write speeds.

[flint ember]

This can actually be used as a smell test, too. If a method is complicated enough that you feel it needs a comment, can it first be refactored to not be so complicated?

[proper nacelle]

very true

[flint ember]

It's also important to remember that comments, like documentation, can very quickly become out-of-date. This is one of the main reasons people advocate for self-documenting code

[nova bough]

so im seeing assembler is self documenting! /j

[flint ember]

"If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read!"

[proper nacelle]

Whilst refactoring if a good thing to keep in mind, there are some edgecases where it's not entirely feasible to make things more simplistic; an example that comes to mind was one project where I made a newton fractal generator in C++ that allowed user input for polynomials (given that polynomials change how the fractal looks due to root positions/number of roots). That polynomial input needed to be derived, which... man... polynomial derivation in code form is not fun

[worthy ivy]

probly these days it would

I was in insurance a decade or so ago and it was following a merger, so our IT infrastructure was this horrific frankenstein creature of interface layers and exchange protocols (and a few bottlenecks where people were /manually/ transcribing stuff from one system to another because none of the respective underwriting departments wanted to touch the ancient mainframes because no-one knew how anything actually worked anymore

was like some real Tech Priest shit

good times

[proper nacelle]

that polynomial derivation function, i don't think i could ever refactor to be neater or more simplistic if i spent 30 years doing so

[nova bough]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-water-holy-exorcist-exorcism-gif-20004005

[wanton elm]

Did something happen on stream that made them not keep the past broadcast in videos tab? A simple yes or no will suffice

[hasty grail]

prevent clippers from doing their thing

[brazen drift]

yeno

[wanton elm]

Gotcha. Thanks

[hasty grail]

https://tenor.com/view/ferret-lick-mlem-cute-funny-gif-25264237

[nova bough]

unrelated, im debating making a script that takes all my credit card transactions and compares it to my budget. im sure theres software that already does this... but even if its free i stil kinda want to do it myself

[worthy ivy]

maybe? sometimes deleted, sometimes it's just youtube shitting the bed and twitch deletes them after so-long anyway

[wanton elm]

@worthy ivy but today’s? That’s far earlier than usual for twitch to give up the ghost

[worthy ivy]

pass

[subtle gate]

do it then publish it if you feel like going that far I might want that for myself

[onyx gate]

Sounds cool!

[subtle gate]

budgeting apps exist but since I have no income at the moment I haven't touched mine 🫠

[nova bough]

i find it cool. but it is ugly. cause if you login through a 3270 emulator it looks like this:

though, surprisingly, you can use vscode to code on the mainframe - assuming the company with the mainframe put zowe on

if no zowe, winscp is ok. it just uses file transfer to upload when you save.

[jade ermine]

Why is there no vod for today's stream

[dusky grove]

As with other recent vod deletions. People with malicious intent will farm out of context clips to make him look bad. And theres been quite a lot of em the past few days

[onyx gate]

Haha I have a few friends who do "software" for defense, and this is exactly how they describe their interface

[nova bough]

they....might actually run on a mainframe. wouldnt surprise me.

[late bane]

I was (could be talking out my ass) under the assumption most banks with that api available charge for it. Is part of why apps like rocketMonies died. (Among many other reasons I'm sure).

Or do you plan to do a screen scrape thing. Once a month log in and have it build the relevant data after you log in?

[nova bough]

so, its mostly my credit card. and, i can export all charges to my credit card to a spreadsheet, .csv. i was planning on using that as input for the script.

[late bane]

Oh sweet, that's definitely doable. Python and it's pandas library tends to be my default csv go to. But I'm sure there's some level of equivalent in w/e language you want

[indigo wadi]

Can a non-microsft USB headset work in an Xbox?

[nova bough]

yeah, thats why i thought it would be easy enough for me. i use pandas all the time to make reports

[late bane]

Real world tools are satisfying, finance tends to be an easy crossover. Good luck with it, may feature creep not burry you

[subtle gate]

feature creep is a real threat with finance for sure

[late bane]

My last attempt at a better budgeting sheet lead me to starting a budget application which lead to learning Raylib to make the front end and eventually was like wtf am I doing. Too easy to follow the next shiny thing

[worthy ivy]

I assume so? headset should be a dumb peripheral

unless MS are super sneaky

[indigo wadi]

It's a Blackwell headset with USB connector

[worthy ivy]

xbox one? I think you could shove a USB headset in a 360, but not sure about a one

the cynic in me is all "MicroShit must have taken that out for the xbox one"

[indigo wadi]

Series X

[worthy ivy]

slap it in and see what it does? 🙂

[robust galleon]

I don't know if the series consoles USB ports will recognize a headset, but there should be no harm in trying.

[worthy ivy]

is always my go-to solution - plug it in and hope nothing explodes

nothing's exploded yet 🙂

[indigo wadi]

MY XBOX DIED, I CANT BELIEVE YOUVE DONE THIS @worthy ivy

[idle hill]

Me, the uncivilized ape, adding up my monthly bank statements compared to my income in a calculator
Man that's super sick

You should do that

[robust galleon]

I just know that the controller has a headset jack that generally works for most non-xbox headsets. Quality isn't as good as my Xbox headset though.

[indigo wadi]

Interestingly I have an Xbox headset that connects via controller and its not the greatest

[robust galleon]

Huh, weird

[indigo wadi]

Like it's okay, but my USB headset for my pc is better quality

[robust galleon]

Audio, or mic quality?

My husband has been using a Turtle Beach headset for his Xbox, and the quality is pretty good for the price point.

[indigo wadi]

Audio, I don't do voice chat

[robust galleon]

Ah, ok

[indigo wadi]

I'll try the headset from pc to xbox later

I suspect the xbox won't recognize it

[idle hill]

I use a Turtle Beach Stealth 500X headset (XBOX), but there's no noise cancelling, so I can't say the audio quality is much better than a JBL Tune 700BT
I do enjoy not having that STUPID SWIVEL JOINT

[robust galleon]

Yeah, I think USB ports are just for data transfer, not anything else. Though let us know if it works for the headset.

[idle hill]

what for usb connection headset->xbox? It should work. If it's data transfer it'd absolutely work for sound.
Would need to check if the cable is for charging only tho

My headset, I don't think I can use it wired, but it stays connected wirelessly while charging

actually yeah thats a good point

[robust galleon]

I honestly haven't tried plugging in anything besides an external hard drive. I haven't plugged a USB charger into even. Just used my phone charger for my controller.

[idle hill]

I imagine it should work, if the headset supports wired use

[indigo wadi]

So my headset says connected, but I don't see anywhere where I can swap em

[idle hill]

If it's 100% wireless like the stealth 500x then all it'd do is charge, may stay connected maybe not

[indigo wadi]

And there's no pair button on this headset

[tight bramble]

Headsets? Im thinking of mega spending on a pair of abyss joals. Or dianas.

[indigo wadi]

It's a USB wireless headset; blackweb

[idle hill]

This one?
https://www.amazon.com/Blackweb-Surround-Sound-Gaming-Headset/dp/B07DQQX9HH

[robust galleon]

May have to look into documentation for the console then. But it should be under the audio settings somewhere.

[idle hill]

does it embed

[indigo wadi]

Nah, lemme see if I can find the specific one

[idle hill]

[robust galleon]

Welp, I'm off to get my cats ready for the vet now. Still trying to find my kitten's collar.

[indigo wadi]

https://store.barterpay.ca/products/blackweb-rechargeable-wireless-gaming-headset-50-mm-drivers?variant=46011348910326 I think it's this one

[idle hill]

hmm
well if the headset says it connected see if there's a setting to change the sound output on the xbox

[indigo wadi]

under devices, nothing shows up

Yeah, I don't think this one will work on the xbox series x.

Not that it's a big deal since I do have a wired one for it

[zealous slate]

Is there a reason you're against industry standards?
Also, isn't part of industry standard ~~is ~~to add comments where necessary, and not to define obvious steps?

Can you help me understand how this helps Gustave in the future? Why is it a dog shit practice?
I feel like if I asked any principal+ engineer they wouldn't agree with this, what makes your perspective correct here?

[jolly sky]

You should continue reading past that point and read further down so you can get information on why self-explaining code isn't always a good idea

[zealous slate]

Okay 🙂

@jolly sky Can you help me understand who is qualified to speak on this? I see a lot of people giving perspectives, but IDK anyone here tbh.
Maybe 1-2 links giving the best takes from people who have completed a successful solo/group project? I will take your word for their credentials.

[jolly sky]

How is the guy who made the video reviewing Pirate Softwares code qualified when he didn't even realise he was looking at Game Maker code and not C++

[hasty grail]

qualified to speak? i think at its core is what are the standards of the organization that you are working for

[zealous slate]

I don't see how this is relevant to my question.

[hasty grail]

for a casual coder having comments help clarify things for others

[zealous slate]

Hmmmm

[hasty grail]

at its base level, if your organization NEEDS comments then you will comment according to what they want

[zealous slate]

Can you give an example?

[hasty grail]

in the case of an independent dev, they might do it for their own sanity

[jolly sky]

There's nothing wrong with leaving instructions or a notes to say what you've done for the next person who will be working on it, or even for yourself you can remember what code does what

[lapis tartan]

From my boring perspective, no one should really be picking on anyone else's code, as everyone's code is their own (messy) baby.

[hasty grail]

unless its Yandev

[jolly sky]

It's like a mechanic working on a car leaving notes saying what he's done when another mechanic is coming by

[zealous slate]

May I ask, have you guys worked on large teams and seen multiple examples of developers preferring more comments over high level comments?

@lapis tartan Unfortunately, that's just not realistic 😦

[lapis tartan]

It's certainly less fun than arguing ❤️

[jolly sky]

You know what shouldn't be real? People picking apart someone elses code in a video just to hop on the drama train

[hasty grail]

i am a teacher and i encourage all my students to have rough drafts and to show their work.
i have taken coding classes in years prior and comments in coding are forced with that instructor

[zealous slate]

I don't see how I've given this impression.

[fluid dome]

He's also a predator AND shit at coding so there's that

[hasty grail]

mostly on the shit coding part, but point stands

[lapis tartan]

I'm including what I'm reading from everyone, don't mind me.

[jolly sky]

I wasn't specifically aiming at you, was talking about Youtube drama slop in general

[zealous slate]

Fair enough.

[hasty grail]

Ape, how do YOU feel if you are trying to bugfix code with or without comments?

[zealous slate]

Has anyone here worked in multiple corporate teams and can attest to what they see in their repositories?

[jolly sky]

Might be worth looking at the code comments left by Valve in their games

That'll be a fun watch, there's videos of it

[zealous slate]

I typically ask the developer who wrote it if they have time, or I consult documentation. Leveraging comments as hints to what the intended flow is, if they exist.
All the teams I've been on follow the industry standard.

@jolly sky I've seen them, and while it's comedic... Valve is an exception I believe.
Using profanity your code in all of the jobs I worked with is an instant way to be out of a job.

[hasty grail]

then as far as independent work, or smaller projects go, do you want to find comments in that work?

[zealous slate]

I'd review posted documentation, typically the readme is a great start.

[nova bough]

so, i work with people who may or may not have a lot of coding experience. i prefer having comments so that they can read in normal english what it does. ideally, knowing what code does without any help would be best, and i try to make my calls so that it helps that along - but sometimes it isnt always obvious.

my .02 as someone who's main job function isnt coding, but making automation is massively helpful.

[wary lotus]

"Why comment your code? Just waste the next 30min trying to decipher what the function does."

[lapis tartan]

My level of experience is my Gf and her friend messing with the code of one of those character Bio generators and the two making comments in the code to each other on why things were worded so the Bio would read well and not chunky. Then someone else took their version and appreciated the comments and another person didn't. That's just how it goes I guess?

[hasty grail]

weird question for the actual coders, when do you comment your code? as you go or near the end?

[zealous slate]

Well. I think the argument is that you don't need comments if you have something like this:

 if (customer.eligible && customer.active) {  return true }
}```

Do you need comments to know what this function is doing?

[scarlet pilot]

personally, the only comments i have are params and returns to help intellisense, and not the functionality, and they happen when i define the function in the header files (C++)

[zealous slate]

If I gave you:

 a.orders.Foreach(order => {  ... })
}```

Is this not more confusing?

[hasty grail]

Ape, so rely more on the clarity of the actual code rather than the comments for understanding?

[scarlet pilot]

yeah, i think thats what you should be striving for

[zealous slate]

Right... isn't this what self-documenting is though?

[hasty grail]

i think it really depends on the person

personal preference and all that

[nova bough]

it depends. if i know exactly what i need to do, ill probably code everything in one go and come back and comment it.

if not, ill put in comments to help along my own process to know what needs to be done.

side note, most of my coding projects are self contained little scripts. not big projects that have a ton of interaction with other methods.

[worthy ivy]

are you shitting me? all this "Th0r RitEs bAd C0De" is based on a video by a shit that didn't even bother to find out what code Thor codes?

<imagine some sort of "super-kek" that doesn't even exist because it would be too powerful here>

which video? just so I can "do not recommend" on my feed

[hasty grail]

unless you are conforming to actual standards set by the company

[hasty grail]

search user "thor" and it should be something he posted last night

[gloomy forge]

Why not both? Documenting your code for people diving right into it and make it elegant. So pretty much everyone can understand it from every angle and everyone "wins".

[dusky grove]

Look, i'll just say. If leaving comments isnt helpful, the feature wouldnt exist

[hasty grail]

the person in question didnt know about the ARG or how gamemaker is its own little coding language

[worthy ivy]

"self explaining code" is just the delusion that your thinking and logic is so flawless that spending a few seconds to write a comment explaining it is unneccessary

[zealous slate]

Seems reasonable.

I typically comment towards the end.

[hasty grail]

oi

[jolly sky]

"Coding Jesus" is the channel name, no I am not kidding

[soft vector]

Most of the people who write "Clean Code" don't actually Develop anything

[zealous slate]

So you're calling me, as well as many other people who have spent years doing this, delusional?

[worthy ivy]

goddammit I really want a "super-kek"....

[hasty grail]

ideally you code well enough where people CAN understand the code reasonably well and fill in with comments as needed, based on what has been talked about thus far?

[zealous slate]

Can you elaborate?

[lapis tartan]

That name, and casting stones. Always gives me a chuckle.

[worthy ivy]

no, I just think that the assumption that a random person will be able to read your code the way it makes sense in your head is delusional

[soft vector]

I should say, people who give Talks and are on YouTube talking about Clean Code aren't actually writing Software

[worthy ivy]

why not comment? no possible bad can come of it.

not commenting? it might not make sense later.

I don't get the logic of "I'll not comment it"

just doesn't make sense tome

[scarlet pilot]

my 2 cents are that comments that can be removed, and it would still be understandable, those comments are redundant
like

//character is angry
if(Char.angry)
  dialogsystem->showstring(angrytext);
//character is happy 
else if (Char.happy)
  dialogsystem->showstring(happytext);

if that makes any sense, you can remove the comments and still understand what the code does (obviously super simple psuedocode)

[worthy ivy]

maybe I'm weird?

[zealous slate]

Thank you.

[hasty grail]

https://vxtwitter.com/Hesamation/status/1942633432888287419
for a quick AI funny

ℏεsam (@Hesamation)

some guy at Mastercard prompt injected a job posting and just days later it tricked somebody’s ai 😂

vxTwitter / fixvx · Jul 8, 2025, 5:14 PM

[zealous slate]

If you're replying in response to what I'm saying, then I'm not arguing to not comment.

[nova bough]

also, how much i comment as i code depends on how much i steal from other projects. like if i copy some code and paste it in, ill just go ahead and update the comment there if needed.

[gloomy forge]

I wonder how the self-documentation looks like on Transport Tycoon/RCT and Elite 2 Frontier. Beause Braben and Sawyer programmed it in ASM and reading through that while remembering 500k lines of code on top of your mind, even if you written them yourself, seems impossible. Normal documentation of course has its uses.

People write post-it notes and stick it on their monitor so they can resume work the next day.

@scarlet pilot I agree with you there but this is a super easy example. Sometimes, it requires a bit of context to understand things clearly, thats where good documentation shines. theres no need to document everything.

[zealous slate]

You nailed it. Add comments explaining obscure reasoning or as necessary.

If you're checking if a character is angry, that's obvious, but why we're checking may not always be obvious. Providing a helpful something like "because the character subsystem requires the character to not be angry to take damage" is much more helpful.

[hasty grail]

Ape, you are a fun person, i hope you stick around

[gloomy forge]

everyone should be allowed to stick around though.

As long as they abide to the rules

[scarlet pilot]

Which is what esentially not using magic numbers/self documenting code achieves. Instead of saying Char[0] for angry and char[1] for happy youd wanna enum that so you dont have to comment. To what level poeple do that is their own perogitive. I personally really like excelling in programming, so i try and write elegant code, its part of the fun for me, but i understand if people dont find that as a priority

[hasty grail]

i could grab some glue to make sure they stick

[scarlet pilot]

fair warning ive never used game maker most my shit is in ue5, unity and/or in scratch c++

[soft vector]

I also personally, don't really give a rip how you write your own Software

[gloomy forge]

game maker code is not really elegant but it is designed in a way so newbies in programming don't run into much trouble.

[hasty grail]

ive tried to program my own discord bot a few years ago.... fun idea and then i learned why i like puzzle programming rather than actual programming

[worthy ivy]

that's a perfect example of redundant comments - not everything needs commenting

but if code needs it, just whack one in there
I don't get why using comments is seen as a sign of "bad" code by some?

disclaimer - the last real coding I did was Acorn BASIC using DMA Sprite for the animations, so not a computer-surgeon

but comments are almost always helpful and almost never "harmful"

[scarlet pilot]

for sure, but I think you should strive for some level of consistency/best practices to avoid future tech debt and scope creep

[hasty grail]

breaking into HTML games to change crap is also fun

[indigo wadi]

Genuinely curious why explaining code, why you don't think that's the industry standard?

[nova bough]

also, sometimes being fun with code makes it more memorable. like a call to catch an error(s) and safely exit can be boring, or you could name it CatchAndDie and be fun

[zealous slate]

I'm sorry I don't understand.

[hasty grail]

//ignore this comment

[worthy ivy]

sorry I failed

[hasty grail]

//the person reading this needs to check their stove

[split tulip]

exect when the comment say x and the code says y, which happens a lot. someone changes the code, but forgets the comment

[indigo wadi]

You asked Thor was he was against industry standards. This leads me to believe that you don't think that not explaining code is the industry standard, so I'm curious why you think not explaining code is the industry standard?

[zealous slate]

Forgive me, I don't think I understand still.
So you're asking why I think that not explaining code is the industry standard?

If so I can quote you exactly what I said that disproves this if you'd like.

[nova bough]

did a google, found a reddit thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/SoftwareEngineering/comments/18bfca1/how_do_software_engineers_with_years_in_the/

[scarlet pilot]

The issue i believe is that when you start commenting things, you start slowly going into like things which are extremely hard to fix.
Using our old example yes in one case using char[0] for happy char and char[1]f or sad char is okay and then commenting it there is fine, but as your codebase grows, and as your featurelist grows, you cant always consistently comment your code. And itll be harder not only for others but for yoruself.

[gloomy forge]

Overcommitting everything simply just adds bloat + it depends whether or not you're a beginner. Maybe Thor wanted to make his code readable by newbies and veterans alike? Just guessing here.

In order to bake bread you require a framework of understanding in order to understand how its made first. Saying "just look at the dough" wouldn't help a beginner, but someone with experience who wants to "optimize" their bread

[indigo wadi]

Go ahead.

[split tulip]

any time someone mentions industry standards and code, they suddenly find out there's 13 competing industry standards

[jolly sky]

Infact IIRC something that Thor has said is that if he were to pass, he wants Heartbound to be opened up by anyone

[split tulip]

all depending on then when, where and who

[jolly sky]

Which would make the comments make complete sense

[hasty grail]

dont forget about ARG related things

[scarlet pilot]

This isnt just a game dev issue btw, as a terminally online programmer, this arguement has had coders fighting for years

[zealous slate]

I don't see how this proves your point...?

The industry standard is:

• Self documenting code - The code should inherently have descriptive qualities
• Comment where the logic is not obvious as to why we're doing things:

[indigo wadi]

Can you show me where self-documenting code is the industry standard?

[nova bough]

a few comments down, they talk about the practice of making code that doesnt need comments.

but theres just as many not mentioning it. so, my .02 cents, yeah probably strive for it, but its not a huge deal in careers.

doubly so if you're a solo dev making a project

[indigo wadi]

So sounds more like a belief than a standard

[nova bough]

cause tbh sometimes i just cant think of something self descriptive, so my var becomes temp1

[zealous slate]

Honestly, you just seem bad faith right now.
I'm in the process of getting you the documentation, calm down.

[gloomy forge]

Thats very sweet of him, I mean he is pretty much twitchs ambassador for beginners who wanna make games so it makes sense to document little thing and write code in a way a beginner can understand use his code to further learn and develop your skills. Its clear to me he intends this code for people to learn, one step of climbing the ladder of your skills basically.

Only because how Thor writes GML like he does doesn't mean people who learn it from him are stuck in limbo too. Obviously people adress documentation libraries and documentation and read up on how others do things as well.

[worthy ivy]

jump into the programming section and ask "yo, programming goblins, you like working with a codebase that's commented or a codebase that's "self-explaining?" I think I know the common answer you'll get

[indigo wadi]

Bad faith how? Because I see it as, if there's multiple headbutting on a standard, it's more a belief than something to be adhered to by everyone.

[worthy ivy]

was ages ago I was coding, but the main reason they were there was so that 6-months-in-the-future me would know why it was as janky as it was

[nova bough]

the first thing i think of is "whats obvious to me, is not obvious to others"

[indigo wadi]

I am calm. Try to not assume my emotional state right now, thank you.

[worthy ivy]

what's obvious to me isn't always obvious to me tomorrow!

[scarlet pilot]

here, this is a function from the physics engine jolt, which does the phsyics for horizon zero dawn, war thunder and many games

[zealous slate]

Let me start with this actually, what would suffice as a good document? Leading tech companies defining aligned standards? What is proof that it's industry standard, if not experience?

[gloomy forge]

Thats what I wrote, yeah. Thats why people write things on post-it notes to stick them around their monitors.

[winged knoll]

https://youtu.be/niWpfRyvs2U?si=WmncDMUe2NR9QuAF

[nova bough]

or worse, they write their user name and password on a post it note on their monitors

[winged knoll]

@zealous slate ^ check myth 3

[indigo wadi]

delay in response, feeding son

[gloomy forge]

Where I'm from nobody does that but it would be funny. Certainly its happening on many places considering theres puzzle and horror games that reference that often

[jolly sky]

Again to me this feels like it's coming from a "I don't understand why they've done/said this therefore it's wrong"

And we've seen plenty of this over the past almost year at this point. I maybe wrong but when you're used to seeing it a lot you start seeing it in more and more places

[zealous slate]

Sure 😄

[winged knoll]

Give him bread

[indigo wadi]

not old enough

[nova bough]

not exactly a post it note, but i have caught people using plaintext passwords in scripts. its just as bad.

[winged knoll]

Take his bread

[indigo wadi]

I'll give it to the mods

[worthy ivy]

I occasionally store really long passwords as plaintext
...
on a bit of paper in my wallet

[scarlet pilot]

Again, no skin in the game/controversy but, if Thor wants beginners to learn from him, wouldn't he be more encouraged to try and follow best case practices?

[gloomy forge]

Yeah I also hope people have tolerance again. I've heard and read arguments where people say that certain art (like abstract and expressionistic art, including entire art movements) should be abolished simply because "I don't see the use of them". Its a very dangerous slippery slope but you obviously know.

I mean theres a reason why its called "language" and everyone uses it differently. Only because someone phrases things with a different term or explanation doesn't mean their explanation and phrasing is automatically invalidated.

[scarlet pilot]

But ive been programming for a while so i dont know how it is for beginners

[split tulip]

I find that beginners generally get caught worrying over if the code is "clean" or if it's "the right way", which prevents them from actually finishing projects and learning. the best thing for a beginner is telling them they are allowed to try

[jolly sky]

Exactly, like a lot of things in life, its all about perspective. And if you understand the perspective, you understand why something is done the way it is

[nova bough]

then theres me, who as a beginner used variables like str1 , tmp, etc

[worthy ivy]

without comments we wouldn't know that the bithack was evil

[split tulip]

best practice is something you pick up over time, usually by running head first into all the bad ones

you don't really appreciate version control until after you've accidentally deleted your project one day before submission

[winged knoll]

I don’t think his content aim to be for dev tho, since he’s working on such obscure game engine (gamemaker) and most industry standard goes for unity / unreal

[gloomy forge]

A lot of beginner books don't use the "best cases". They show alternatives and give specific examples at the very least. Its about developing your mental framework and understanding that many roads lead to rome, some easier or more elegant than others. Just like how real spoken languages work.

[winged knoll]

Never had the impression that it’s dev stuffs like ThePrimeAgen or Dougdoug

[gloomy forge]

Writing a novel is art just like how writing code to make your game run is an art. Doesn't seem to be a controversal take.

[nova bough]

indie dev tho. they're going to use whats cheap or free

[winged knoll]

Even dougdoug code is kind of shitty but it works and funny

[scarlet pilot]

i dont think game maker is obsecure but fair and real

[nova bough]

unless unreal engine is cheap. im not a game dev

[zealous slate]

I don't fully comprehend what point we're trying to make here. The video talks about an over-adherance to clean code, while admitting in the preface that some of the advice is good. It sounds akin to overengineering where it's not needed.
But I don't see how this relates to self-documenting code? Maybe I'm just missing the obvious.

[worthy ivy]

I run version control just on music projects - assume it's an absolute 'must' for dev'ing?

[scarlet pilot]

Either or, I think its only helpful to clean up your code for your own self imo

[indigo plover]

Since you all are talking about best practice in coding and I don't know anything about using gamemaker, I was curious why Thor didn't use a for loop here (unless it was specifically so he could leave comments):

[nova bough]

maybe to doc which room is which?

[split tulip]

he said it's done that way to be easy for those doing the ARG part, basically modders. makes it easy to find in memory and save files.

generally speaking, it is not good practice. it's just what works for his use case

[gloomy pelican]

the primary criticism was more about magic numbers, not a loop... the loop part was for the alarms

[worthy ivy]

that just makes sense to me - you'd have to write that down somewhere (unless you could remember which entry mapped to which room and it looks like there's hundreds of them) why not in the code?

[scarlet pilot]

Yes, i agree, but this specific "best case" (not leaving too many comments) isnt like anything crazy. we arent talking about GPU instancing or like more complex topics. Its one of the best cases programmers can start with while theyre a beginner. Just my thoughts tho

[winged knoll]

I misread the arguments then, was half sleepy and think you said something about clean code

[zealous slate]

❤️ thanks for that, not quite.
I basically just asked a question to Thor about why he disagrees with an industry standard relating to Self-documenting code/commenting as necessary.

[worthy ivy]

I always thought best practice was "don't comment everything, but if you think you might need one then put it in anyway just in case"

but that was 90s best practice

am not exactly current

[scarlet pilot]

this is sort of the example i was saying before with Char[0] where it could be solved with an enum, or even a custom class with like

    string name;
    string thing;
    int index;
    bool flag;
}

then that could be changed to storyline_array[new room (Closet, void, 206, false)] instead of the 206

[split tulip]

also, I dislike this attitude of someone reading the code for a project they know nothing about and immediately assuming the dev is an idiot

[scarlet pilot]

which then makes it self documenting

[winged knoll]

Does gamemaker support it tho is the question

[scarlet pilot]

yes https://manual.gamemaker.io/lts/en/GameMaker_Language/GML_Overview/Structs.htm

smile

structs are explicitly meant for this purpose, for data passing when theres no need for an instance of the object (again, grain of salt im not god)

[gloomy pelican]

this is how people with a lot of code review do things, I myself do this because I am responsible for my juniors

[split tulip]

do you show up the first day at a new company, look at the code and call them morons? I'm not talking about code review in project you're familiar with, but instead for cases where you don't know the context

especially if the code has been making the company money for years

[jolly sky]

Having that internal thought is fine, but taking the effort to make and release a video on the internet doing that to cash in on some recent drama is pathetic (As per "Coding Jesus")

[scarlet pilot]

I dont think you can equate it to that. When you put your work out for everyone to see, its bound to get criticized

[gloomy forge]

Yeah and I agree with you but I want to add that the balance is important and I say that you can certainly have both. You can document your code in specific ways but you can leave many things out of the explanations since they're are self-evident within the code. Which I think has been pretty much the norm for ages.

Maybe I'm very wrong though considering I'm no expert nor really knowledgeable with years of programmign experience, just what I've seen when I looked into plugins and same open sourced game code.

[gloomy pelican]

no, I agree, it's disgusting and discouraging, I hate it as well, but it's youtube and they farm stuff like this

[soft vector]

I would also say, talk about arrogance.... To call yourself Coding Jesus

[vivid maple]

who dafug is this "coding jesus"?

[toxic rampart]

Slop farmer now I guess.

[zealous slate]

Critique is also a good thing. Not a bad thing.

[scarlet pilot]

yeah it for sure is a person to person thing. Which is why I add like "my opinion" and what not. At the end of the day if you have a deliverable/finished thing who cares.

[soft vector]

So many times I have looked at Code, thought man this Code is dumb, do a Git blame to find out I was the Dummy who wrote it

[toxic rampart]

I'm just calling them all that at this point idgaf anymore lol

[indigo plover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwhiz0s2x8

[scarlet pilot]

100% agree, ive only gotten better because of critique

without critique youre going to be stuck at the level you were on before

[jolly sky]

As above, and he didn't even realise what he was looking and was coming from a standpoint it was C++

When it was infact Game Maker's code

So, absolutely worthless and slop drama cash grab bait

[vivid maple]

oh no wonder

[split tulip]

you're looking as tiny snippets without context. cases like the massive array would look like a bad way for most things, but for what the game needs it does the job

[scarlet pilot]

sure. But its not good code. or to put it another way, it can be better

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/squinting-i-think-you-should-leave-with-tim-robinson-eyes-narrowing-confused-look-baffled-gif-15908970175645453943

[scarlet pilot]

arrays are like so dangerous

[gloomy forge]

Man, I wish people stop doing the YouTube thing where "oh, this code is bad, obviously that means everything the person did is a fraud".

@scarlet pilot Sorry, I didn't meant to imply that there is only one approach. Obviously it depends on the person and how they learned to code ! Not all teaching books are the same.

[split tulip]

if you can make it better, while still maintaining the same memory structure (which is the point of it), then I'd love to see it

[gloomy pelican]

I think at a positive note, senior developers really care to see good practice and they tend to be savage... used to be like that as well but I learned that I need to build good arguments and help people move

[gloomy forge]

And teachers also have different approaches to that sort of topic.

[scarlet pilot]

Again, no skin in the game, people can do what they want but i will say, the points he brings up are universal

[winged knoll]

Do be agree that the coding jeebus guy is drama baiting

[gloomy pelican]

oh hell yea, he completely ignored Linkedin information

[jolly sky]

Yea but when you're looking at something you don't understand why its done (because it's Game Maker code and not C++) you don't get to claim he's a fraud

[winged knoll]

Do think Thor isn’t ze best as coding, no one with a sane brain would say that, i don’t think Thor claimed to be the best either

[soft vector]

Even if it was C++ you don't

[jolly sky]

We're literally talking about critique'ing here on all fronts. You don't even know what the word Echo Chamber means

[winged knoll]

It’s up to the guy to take critics and up his game or not

[zealous slate]

I'll be honest with you, I can see that argument. And to be fair to Thor we only see small snippets.

But @scarlet pilot is correct in saying there are things that are language agnostic.

[split tulip]

if you legitimately wanted to critique the code, you would need the full project. otherwise it's close to useless

[scarlet pilot]

you can use a std::vector (c++) or their GML counterpart, Lists. Theyre more memory efficient and have faster lookups

[soft vector]

Almost every time I have had to review code, I remind myself whoever wrote this at the time it was written had specific requirements and time constraints, etc

[winged knoll]

Ye but i checked most of his streams, people enjoy the talking, not the coding part kek

[split tulip]

does it keep the EXACT same memory layout?

[scarlet pilot]

why does it need to be an exact memory layout sorry

[soft vector]

He hasn't, but YouTube doesn't Care

[jolly sky]

Alright man, back to reddit with you

[split tulip]

for the ARG, augmented reality game. there is a game hidden in the game files and memory. that's why it needs to be consistent

[winged knoll]

If you predefined the memory addresses + size it should be consistent

[scarlet pilot]

changing it from an array to a list wouldnt change its memory location in a way that would effect us. It mostly is what it does when the game complies

[split tulip]

can you do that in game maker?

[indigo wadi]

Babyboy has been fed

[scarlet pilot]

all that is like basic cs, you can do it in any engine

[winged knoll]

No idea, never tried that engine before, im assuming the c++ part

[split tulip]

did you read my message? the compiled output must stay consistent every time. it's a requirement for this project

[scarlet pilot]

yeah the compiled output will stay the same

[split tulip]

and backwards compatible with the old solution?

[scarlet pilot]

only thing that changes is how its stored in disk memory, which is in machine code which ARGers cannot read because its different depending on what machine

[indigo wadi]

can ppl stop being unhinged

[toxic rampart]

I was having fun reading and learning before some felt the need to reddit all over the chat.

[scarlet pilot]

again. Its how its stored, you'd just need to change lookups. Some lookups even work the same

but if you dont care, you dont have to

[toxic rampart]

Danke mods

🍞

[gloomy forge]

Yeah, it happens when people stir up things. But this discussion has been a great read

This is unrelated to anything here but I feel that constructive criticism is one of the best things you can do to a person.

[soft vector]

Seems Most of Coding Jesus Videos are about making fun of people, so time to ignore his Videos

[toxic rampart]

Yeah that's gross

[last patrol]

fwiw he did put out a video about 5 hours ago talking on a lot of the points ive seen here

[toxic rampart]

Bullies are bullies no matter the content.

[soft vector]

We all know why he picked a clickbait Title

It feeds the algo

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-slop-em-up-i-think-you-should-leave-with-tim-robinson-lets-slosh-them-lets-splash-on-them-tim-robinson-gif-9883680807912888014

[soft vector]

Making a Video to give critical feedback to help Others improve, nothing wrong with that. Making a Video to criticize and call someone a fake, entirely different

[jolly sky]

There was a surprising amount of people that were calling him out on the video too which was nice to see

Some rare sense in Youtube comments

[toxic rampart]

The post mortem on this entire event will be something for sure.
A study on the speed of anger and brain worms will be interesting.

[gloomy pelican]

reason why in his last video he said he wants to move on

[strange ember]

To be fair?
Basically ANY code can be improved. Sometimes by a lot. There's usually multiple ways to do anything with code, all of which come with pros and cons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33AZBnRHks

[scarlet pilot]

yeah i mean

idk what that link is supposed to be ive always agreed to that notion

[strange ember]

If it does the job, it does the job
basically

[scarlet pilot]

sure, but the original topic was if its best practices or not/ if there are better alternatives

i even said "people can code how they want to"

[soft vector]

"Better" is also sometimes in the eye of the beholder

[split tulip]

how many of you have had this experience:
you've been working at a company and things work pretty smoothly. a new manager gets hired and immediately starts changing things to "optimize" things. they don't take the time to sit down and understand what you do and just says "this way is better"

that's how a lot of this comes across to me. people show up, say "just use x" and never ask you've been doing y

[strange ember]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
Been done. More could be done for verification though. Probably have been honestly, studying why algorithmic engagement is usually anger-inducing is probably something people have done... trick is more if it got published

[bright condor]

Did anything happen to today's stream on twitch?

[nova bough]

also, a note... sometimes people will say "code is self documenting" as a joke.

[bright condor]

Can't find it or follow the links from tts

[strange ember]

Very much this.
Too many people trying to justify thier position/credentials/experience when they ignore one of the core principles of practical engineering/design:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[jolly sky]

Yeeeeees

Yeeeeeeeees

Yeeeees

[split tulip]

bit late, but the array is just one of many things that have to keep their positions in memory. packing things would leads to bits shifting around, which is bad when the ARG around it relies on those bits to be in precise locations in memory or the save file
also note, I don't have the full context for this, but this is my best understanding of the system

[scarlet pilot]

While that situation makes sense, the person who is talking about changing things, does understand what is happening because they understand programming/understand core cs concepts

[jolly sky]

Even worse when the Company's goals change in a completely ass-backwards way and makes egregious changes, while bringing in a new manager to implement those changes

[zealous slate]

I've never seen this.

[gloomy forge]

I feel this whole discussion, not whats happening here right now but on the internet in general is very similar to the "expressionism" vs "impressionism" talk back 80 years ago. If we've really learned from the art movements from yesteryear its known that you can have both.

[jolly sky]

Thats when you GTFO

[split tulip]

lucky you

[strange ember]

Change for the sake of change introduces possibility for the introduction of flaws. If you don't have something that's actually wrong you are trying to fix? Why risk it?

[scarlet pilot]

sure, I think thats not really how it works but alright, agree to disagree

[zealous slate]

TBF, I'd just quit or switch teams if that's the case.

[nova bough]

welllllllll......

yes but no. generally yes. but sometimes saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is how you get 30+ year old cobol code that the last people who knew it well are long dead or retired.

[earnest mirage]

in this case better wouldn't even matter.
the game runs on a smart watch and a smart fridge or with other words it runs on a potato. No one will ever notice a difference if you put more effort into this and optimize stuff because it's already done processing within 1 frame.

[last patrol]

looks worriedly at the entire banking system

[scarlet pilot]

yeah, thats the reason why spagetti code is a real term

[nova bough]

:) i work in fintech.

[last patrol]

I had a feeling

[scarlet pilot]

i feel ilke thats smiley emoji needs to be (:

also are u looking for an intern i hear that has some good money /j

[zealous slate]

I've had people ask "How can I open zip files in windows 95".

Believe me, I get this 😄

[jolly sky]

The single piece of Cobol code foundation holding up the entire structure

[split tulip]

that's taking it to the extreme, and pretty much all extremes are bad. I don't think rewriting it all in a new language every year would be good either

[strange ember]

Yes, but the trick is. Does it NEED to be better?
Why spend the time and effort, introduce the possibility for typos, add possible debugging time, etc?
If it satisfies the requirements of the project, it is "good enough". Seeking perfection for the sake of perfection is the enemy of stuff existing in a functional state

[nova bough]

but it is a real reality in fintech

[gloomy forge]

I read many times that your average car contains code that has 100 million lines of code, which honestly seems crazy to me.

[scarlet pilot]

I think its a difference between who you are. If youre a programmer then youd think it does, if youre a game designer then no

[gloomy forge]

It probably stems from the whole "if it ain't broke" philosophy. sometimes things require a lil bit of reinterpretation and updating.

[jolly sky]

And to double on that, perfection doesn't exist in the first place. The more you add, the less perfect it gets.

The Universe itself wouldn't exist if perfection also did

[strange ember]

That's more enterprise inertia than "ain't broke don't fix".
The code DOESN'T actually do what it needs to anymore, it's just that nobody's willing to pay the price to fix it... so the price keeps getting higher

[toxic rampart]

Interesting. I'll hit this up when I can.

I'm more so talking about specifically this incident.
The algo is so finely tuned to thrive on rage, that goes without saying. It's just wild to watch someone go "Nuh uh" this time and see it EXPLODE like this.

[dreamy dagger]

Did the vod of today get taken down?

[zealous slate]

Sometimes you don't have a choice, but I'd say it's rare you need to swap languages like that, maybe just anecdotal here.
Usually it's bigger SDK updates or something like that, just a hasty example.

[jolly sky]

Yup, likely to stop clips being taken out of context and farmed to all hell

[scarlet pilot]

Anyways, thor aside, please for the love of god use true and false instead of 1 and 0

[dreamy dagger]

Sadj but understandable

[gloomy pelican]

It depends, there is a difference between programmers, coders and developers... coders care about code quality and maintainability, programmers care only about solving a problem and optimizing in terms of memory and performance, while developers care more about delivering a stable product

[nova bough]

bit of a, bit of b. at least in fintech. it does what is needed, but doesnt reflect newer things that can/should be added. and yeah, the price does get higher

[scarlet pilot]

yeah thats what i meant

[strange ember]

I mean if you're a programmer that thinks everything needs to be the height of efficient and best practice? You're a bad programmer. You're wasting time seeking a platonic ideal instead of Making Shit And Moving On... give me a minute, I need to find a practical example from a pottery class.

[soft vector]

Laughs in C

[zealous slate]

Hmmm, I'd say you want both...

An ideal developer/programmer will care about the quality, but also realizing deadlines exist, what is the most quality product we can put out within the required timeline?

Based on what you guys are saying, I worry that you've been on rough teams.

[last patrol]

I mean the whole recent RCE debacle due to gamepass using a older build of codww2 arose from a it works so why change things attitude afaik, albeit thats probably more to do with Activision not wanting to spend money rather than thinking it was "fine".

[gloomy forge]

Cmon folks, don't assume bad things from others. People are just here to voice opinions and have a talk.

[scarlet pilot]

im agreeing to disagree, because i think we have a fundamental disagreement, so we're not gonna see eye to eye

[earnest mirage]

you want to know something scary?
Lot of old programms exist without the source code. They just have the binaries and have to put whatever it takes in keeping the virtual environment behaving the same like the original system from back in the 80s. And these old stuff is still used by a lot of other stuff than just banking systems.

[split tulip]

he did leave a comment on the video on why he does it

[strange ember]

A ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bathroom scales and weigh the work of the “quantity” group: fifty pound of pots rated an “A”, forty pounds a “B”, and so on. Those being graded on “quality”, however, needed to produce only one pot — albeit a perfect one — to get an “A”. Well, came grading time and a curious fact emerged: the works of highest quality were all produced by the group being graded for quantity. It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work – and learning from their mistakes — the “quality” group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay.
David Bayles and Ted Orland — Art & Fear

[scarlet pilot]

i said thor aside lmfao

[gloomy forge]

I guess this channel now became "the war room"

[split tulip]

oh sorry, I didn't catch that

[zealous slate]

I think the equifax hack was also due to a missing patch 😄
I'm lucky that my workplace(s) have had vulnerability scans to prevent this. Wild it's not everywhere.

[worthy ivy]

and low effort memes 🙂

[split tulip]

no fighting in the war room

[worthy ivy]

love me a low effort meme

[jolly sky]

Good lord thats uh....wow yea thats something

[gloomy pelican]

I've babysitted, I've been yelled at by seniors and architects, I've done jobs for sysadmins or devops because we didn't have capable ones ... I've had to go through long nights of stability monitoring for critical applications ... I would not have survived if my seniors haven't yelled at me and now they listen to me as well ... ngl fun times

[midnight shale]

I don't understand, the guy reads Thor's msg "Can't define bool in GML,"
Opens docu, finds out that yes in fact you can't define bools and there are built-in's instead, then somehow says that like a gotcha???
Done with Internet today...

[flat moat]

remember, if they can capitalise on your lack of knowledge, they will use it to further their influence

[strange ember]

This is fair, just trying to broaden your horizons a bit. I've been bit by prescriptivism before

[zealous slate]

Crazy reading that.

Every time I've ever had a discussion with other developers it's always been super "we all just want to be right, who here can prove they are right?"
Everyone is always extremely kind and courteous.

If my lead yelled at me I'd assume he's going through tough times.

I still go on-call myself and get paged at all hours. Not as bad as it used to be.

[strange ember]

remember, if they can, they will use anything to further their influence
fixed it for ya

[scarlet pilot]

no its not that, i just have higher standards for my own code, thats all

its still ass

Not like any of this matters anyway its all green text on screen anyway

[nova bough]

im 15 years into my career, every time ive been yelled at someone lost their cool and later apologized. its not ok to yell at someone. take a break and come back to the subject if you ever get that angry.

[strange ember]

In general that's a good thing.
As someone that struggles with an overactive perfectionist tendency, I worry about others that display similar traits.

[indigo wadi]

I will mentally shut down if I get yelled at

[scarlet pilot]

hey better than the opposite, which is to pretend you have skills that you do not. I am alright though, appreciate the concern 🫶

[nova bough]

yeah ive done that before. or if the convo is super berating.

then sometimes i also get angry

[ocean agate]

less than 9 days https://itch.io/jam/pirate

[strange ember]

Ya know, that's fair. I do think I'd prefer nothing because perfectionism over garbage because dunning-krueger effect

[zealous slate]

Yall casually saying stuff where I'd be 100% fired if I did something like that.
Maybe I'm just lucky.

[gloomy pelican]

imagine what the PO goes through when UACs are not met and you risk losing all funding for the project, in government projects from where I'm from it's always do or die

[strange ember]

most people do

[indigo wadi]

Depends on how it's said.

[strange ember]

and where

[zealous slate]

Aghhhhh I see your pain now, I worked government contracting for 4 years.
I did have a lot of... developers that were... difficult.
Worst job I've ever had, and if you can handle the high speed of tech companies, it's way, way, way better dude.

[soft vector]

Good grief.... The Response Video. Thor takes being called the Bob Ross of programming as an honor, not because he's God's Gift to programming, but because his channel has inspired others to go and make things....

[zealous slate]

Well, sorry, not referring to themselves, but other leads/seniors essentially showing aggression.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't immediate HR/PIP

[gloomy forge]

Bob Ross also invited many people way more talented than him to draw in his show.

[nova bough]

i have also heard very frusterating interesting things about government and how they operate, from previous coworkers who took a government contract

[jolly sky]

Do people not know who Bob Ross is anymore, or why he is loved as such? If so that's incredibly sad

[hasty grail]

https://tenor.com/view/paint-painting-lets-paint-few-happy-trees-bob-ross-gif-11656328

[indigo wadi]

There tends to be a lot of favourtism. HR does not represent workers.

[worthy ivy]

who /doesn't/ want to be the Bob Ross of their thing?!

I wouldn't mind being the Bob Ross of DJing...

Bob Ross kicks ass

[gloomy forge]

Some oeople probably don't even know that Bob Ross was itself one of twitchs most beloved creators (Way after his death, his family hostes the twitch Bob Ross channel AFAIK)

[soft vector]

It missed the entire Point. Bob Ross inspired people to go Out and try and Paint, to make mistakes and to make things. Which is exactly what Thor does

[nova bough]

"happy little mistakes"

[worthy ivy]

the true echo in the chamber: "go make shit"

[split tulip]

I bet you can see a noticeable bump on the number of painters in the world, just after bob ross' show was made

[strange ember]

HR is the CEO's Special Helper.
They will and routinely do throw people under the bus and into the woodchipper.
I've seen more injustice from HR getting involved in a situation than anythign resembling justice by an order of magnitude

[nova bough]

HR is there to keep the company from being sued. if you want to involve it, jt has to be something that could negatively impact the company

[indigo wadi]

Absolutely. HR is there to protect the compnay

[nova bough]

i try not to involve HR.

[gloomy forge]

Haven't watched the video you talk about but yeah thats sad to hear. Bob Ross was an ambassador and teacher first and for most. But mostly he conveyed the feeling of "just try it out! don't fear the craft". Most people can draw like Bob Ross does just by watching and doing things similar as how he does. His videos literally were real time drawing tutorials

[indigo wadi]

Bob Ross was also in the military

[midnight shale]

To be fair HR depends a lot on company, I usually don't like HR but where I'm at I'm very satisfied - no bloated headcount, one interview into offer/denial, no harassment with menial or non-sensical tasks etc

[nova bough]

youtube howtos before youtube

[indigo wadi]

The larger the company, the more likely HR is for the company

[strange ember]

Got this as a housewarming gift from a neighbor

[gloomy forge]

Can you imagine a Bob Ross like tutorial that has unregistered hypercam 2 and notepad writings in it those were the days.

thats so nice

[strange ember]

Style relevant to conversation 🙂

[midnight shale]

There's a spy camera in the branches, /s

[bright condor]

Is it just me or has the game jam image been getting more and more zoomed in each edition?

[gritty tartan]

Literally quote from Thor himself

[tribal canyon]

bets on how much malware is getting sent this time?

[strange ember]

I'm reminded of the rumor that he was a drill sergeant... which is why he was so even-keeled and soft-spoken... but I can't remember if it's true. I do know he was a Master Sergeant in the Air Force though

[indigo wadi]

Won't matter due to webhosting

[bright condor]

double the participants I'm guessing

[tribal canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/life-uh-finds-a-way-it-be-that-way-it-will-work-itself-out-gif-16077053

[ocean agate]

do you mean the tv screen? i made that myself

[bright condor]

Well probably much off it will be malware written by chatgpt somehow that won't work but who knows

[bright condor]

No but nice let me get a image

[ocean agate]

compared to last game jam, hardly anyone signed up so far

[ocean agate]

(when the hitman picked up the wrong job)

[strange ember]

Can't say I'm totally surprised. Thor's lost quite a chunk of his raw numbers Cuz Drama Stuffs since Jan

[tribal canyon]

16th was 1,796, so far this one is 2,523

[strange ember]

Oh that's a very good thing to be wrong about

[jolly sky]

DAMN.

[strange ember]

Way to go Thor!

[jolly sky]

That's pretty good numbers but uh, holy shit

RIP to the Mods free time looking through all those submissions

[tribal canyon]

thou i am praying its not spammers/ghosters

[ocean agate]

i said not many have joined

[jolly sky]

(not that all of those 2500 signups will get to be individual games of course)

[hazy storm]

There are likely a few but likely not a lot

[jolly sky]

Ohhhhh

[ocean agate]

we had over 16k sign up last jam

[indigo wadi]

I'd look towards submissions more than joins

[hazy storm]

Reading

[tribal canyon]

ah yea didnt realise it was joined/submissions,

[ocean agate]

this is my 3rd join....i have gotten bettr but still never finished a project

[vivid maple]

i think the issue this time is the drama is still fresh on peoples minds

thats just my observation

[tribal canyon]

tbf 16 was during the WoW stuff

[ocean agate]

no worries, not trying to be mean just pointing it out

[bright condor]

I just can't find it does anyone know how to see all the pirate game jams in itch.it like from 17-10 or further

?

[strange ember]

oh... yeah that is different isn't it?

[tribal canyon]

a civilised correction IN THIS INTERNET!?!?!? (i joke but glad we can be civil like this)

[bright condor]

We are still a bit away it will eventually increase but yeah I believe the community also took a hit recently

[ocean agate]

if there is a way to search "X" i would try there

[tribal canyon]

oh for sure, but honestly hopefully for the better long term, its quality not quantity that makes a community special

[ocean agate]

i am hyped to find out what we get to vote the theme will be

[earnest mirage]

yeah, may look into core banking systems and legacy cobol core programs 😄
some companies have tried to move away from the old systems but failed and had to offer old retired workers an insane amount of money to keep fixing stuff.

[strange ember]

https://itch.io/search?type=jams&jam_state=finished&q=Pirate+Software>
Whoops

[tribal canyon]

i should learn cobol

[strange ember]

huh... they're not all on itch

nevermind

[worthy ivy]

oh yeah, shit'll really hit the fan when the last person that knows cobol dies

[gritty tartan]

And I'm afraid that many people are going to get shit on for participating in the Jam. A lot of freaks are going to take this chance and use it against Thor as another weapon in their imaginary war.

[ocean agate]

yeah it only shows the 3

[tribal canyon]

game jam 18 theme, only cobol

[worthy ivy]

we need it - is about to get all tech priest

[vivid maple]

yeah i feel sorry for the participants

[ocean agate]

no we use basic, since its Thor favorite language

[worthy ivy]

"sorry, we can't fix it, we don't know how"

[gritty tartan]

java

[earnest mirage]

• rust 🦀

[tribal canyon]

my computer science A-level was using VB6 on windown XP running on a iMac

and that was 2015.....

[worthy ivy]

love me a bit of BASIC
BASIC is the closest to "current" I am at the minute

[strange ember]

That does suck, but frankly? <censored> the hate mob

[gritty tartan]

But nobody wants to be a collateral damage.

[bright condor]

I already tried that but only shows the last 3 and then it gets lost in the sauce

[bright condor]

They are not?

Well that helps

Lol

[strange ember]

They would've showed up on there if they were, unless he keeps messing with the name

[tribal canyon]

game must be added to Linux Kernal

[strange ember]

I get it, but also if you're getting flak for MAKING A GAME you should honestly tell the <censored> to go <censored>.
Letting someone control your actions because they MIGHT be mean is the ultimate chilling effect, and lets them win without any effort on their part

[gritty tartan]

the numbers are fine

[strange ember]

that's submissions not joins

We had that convo earlier 🙂

[gritty tartan]

anyway, look what I found on the 15th Jam page

https://itch.io/jam/pirate15/rate/2864220

[tribal canyon]

actually would love to see a game you need an entire #it-homelab to even play kubernetes and all

[gritty tartan]

[ocean agate]

HENRY

[bright condor]

I remember seeing a list of at least his last 4 but I don't remember where arg also feel free to ping me

I would appreciate it

[ocean agate]

i like seeing the comments of other dev's for the contest that are all positive and not being hateful toward eachother

[strange ember]

Heh
https://itch.io/jam/stop-killing-games-game-jam

[jolly sky]

Would love to see a troll game that uninstalls itself after a playthrough

[earnest mirage]

for sure, but isn't it required for them to run in the browser?

[bright condor]

Yeah also saw that

[jolly sky]

"It's my code, stay mad"

[strange ember]

Maybe read through the thing before low effort trolling?

[bright condor]

I can bet there will be a Thor game on that jam

[jolly sky]

Yea thats true

[bright condor]

[earnest mirage]

and the winner is NULL.. wait what? 😄

[bright condor]

Just crash instead

[bright condor]

I saw I read it

But that will not stop anyone

[hard jackal]

Like with the last jam, those will be disqualified beforehand.

[strange ember]

I mean someone will make one, but you know someone will make one for Thor's jam too

[gritty tartan]

Well... that's a good rule. I wish them luck with their Jam tbh.

[bright condor]

On Thor's jam yes but on that one I'm not sure

[bright condor]

And get deleted

[hard jackal]

Ah. I see. Yea,...

[bright condor]

Yeah

[strange ember]

No reason they won't here either

[bright condor]

It's community run so I don't really see it be well enforced

[strange ember]

presuming someone's a jerk before they've done a thing is kinda bad faith, IMO ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[bright condor]

Oh I'm sure they will (throw petitions at Thor simulator)

But yeah

[bright condor]

Fair enough

[strange ember]

Personally I'm glad they're trying to make games too

[ocean agate]

i am so glad i have a back up battery, i know i should not be so addicted to tech.....but i would lose my mind without at least music to listen to

[strange ember]

I'm hoping that most of the jam entries for Thor's will be designed in a way that doesn't rely on external services as well. Just seems sensible to me.
Don't tie your car's ignition coil into the headlights, kind of thing.

[bright condor]

Get a crank record player and well no need for electric connection to a grid or a battery

[ocean agate]

true, but to be honest i should probably get one of those emergency crank radios i have seen

[bright condor]

Well if you are a AAA tie them so if one breaks you need to replace both but yeah, the entry's will probably all be web based without 3rd party

[toxic rampart]

NGL this is why I order physical from Bandcamp when I can.
Getting both the digital and a CD or vinyl to enjoy with one purchase is choice af

[hard jackal]

https://itch.io/jam/pirate

• Your submission must run in the browser.
• No AI-Generated Content.
• You can only use assets you have the commercial license for.
  Some asset packs only allow non-commercial use.
  Make sure you know the licensing limits for anything you use.
  The intention is for you to build your own stuff and learn from it.
  Don't overthink this and try to find a way around it, just make things.
  The game jam is a flex of personal skill not personal wallet.

[bright condor]

Some time ago there was a full shutdown where I live for like a day (news announced 3-5 max and people ran around like crazy) made me realise radios are extremely useful and that hearing stories of people running around buying a ton of useless things is fun

[strange ember]

Ah right, forgot the "must be browser based"

[bright condor]

[strange ember]

If someone manages to make one that authenticates to a self-hosted server... I will be impressed and severely disappointed at the jerk-ery

[bright condor]

Anyways I hope the theme is good

I may or may not have not liked the last one

[strange ember]

What was the last one?

[outer gust]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/920152399941861457/1168171367636676618/1142914651835875400.gif

[ocean agate]

alchemy, shadow?

[bright condor]

You are the weapon I believe

[strange ember]

I'm getting a 404 in my memory bank for it

[ocean agate]

yeah yeah "you are the weapon"

[bright condor]

Join the club named huhhhhh idk I forgot

[bright condor]

Poor (extremely cute) doggo

[strange ember]

https://tenor.com/view/doug-maclean-doug-maclean-nhl-hockey-gif-17862670153536184507

My memory^^^^^^^^^^^

[bright condor]

My memory is made of aerogel

98% air baby

[strange ember]

Hey, at least it's fireproof

[bright condor]

The other 2% is those memories you want to forget and every single Minecraft command for some reason

[bright condor]

Well if I have fire there that's the least of my problems ain't it

[strange ember]

Ah yes, thank you memory bank. I absolutely wanted to remember that comparators filter 0-tick redstone pulses and forget my spouse's birthday. Capital

[hard jackal]

I mean.. only fair.

[shy pawn]

Are you a developer?

[bright condor]

That happened yesterday holy

[jolly sky]

This has already been talked about, read down from here;

#streamchat message

[ocean agate]

are you gate keeping being a developer or just asking them in general?

[strange ember]

I got linked back here from the future.
Probably been addressed since.
"self-explaining code" is dogshit. YOU WILL FORGET WHAT SOMETHING DOES.
Unless it's actually 101-level simple. Like the imports at the beginning of a python script or something.

[tribal canyon]

The closest you will ever get to self documents code is Cisco IOS, change my mind

[strange ember]

But 99% of the time what you THINK is obvious now will NOT be obvious in the future. Everyone that looks at the code, including Future You will appreciate your comments later

[shy pawn]

asking in general

[bright condor]

Top that with using obscure libraries and you have a erased tomb worth of clues to what died there

[ocean agate]

as someone who can walk into a room and forget why i am there i will always comment my code (when i remember)

[bright condor]

I feel ya in both cases

[shy pawn]

There is a thing called Design patterns.. you use design patterns in code and in different languages so that you write the code like a template. If I see a pattern I know what the code does.

so that makes no sense.. the point of the code is to be human readable

its written for humans not computers..

[strange ember]

#include <stdio.h>
int main() {
   // printf() displays the string inside quotation
   printf("Hello, World!");
   return 0;
}```
Even hello world can be commented

[shy pawn]

computers only understand machine code technically

[shy pawn]

have you heared of our lord and savior python and ruby

[bright condor]

Commenting the print that way is kinda useless

[jolly sky]

Well it seems you didn't read from the linked point downwards

[brazen drift]

i need to start commenting my art so i can remember what setings i used to get certain filters orz i even forget my own brushes half the time. i couldnt imagine trying to code and forgetting what something important does

[tribal canyon]

Yes and I can write some Welsh endritch horrors in that

[jolly sky]

Using comment in code isn't a good or bad thing

[strange ember]

I comment my personal AHK scripts. There's no harm, they're not included in the compiled binary. They aid in readability

[jolly sky]

It is just something that can be chosen to do

[ocean agate]

i remember hearing about some case involving theft of code, the key indicator that showed it was stolen was that they left the comments that had stolen dudes name all over it

[nova bough]

its useful in this case for someone completely new to coding. the kind of people who look up hello world.

[shy pawn]

Comments are good for example in real life where do you use comments? Here is a good usecase:

/**
 * Solves equations of the form a * x = b
 * @example
 * // returns 2
 * globalNS.method1(5, 10);
 * @example
 * // returns 3
 * globalNS.method(5, 15);
 * @returns {Number} Returns the value of x for the equation.
 */
globalNS.method1 = function (a, b) {
    return b / a;
};

this gives you documentation

[strange ember]

Aye, you should. Most filesystems have a metadata structure that allows notes

[shy pawn]

• explains what the function does

[bright condor]

You can make a sort of techniques document that is just a artwork or even just the traces with the explanations and If you want you can then just add small mentions to what style you used using things like small [xy] combos that link to it

[bright condor]

Fair enough

[brazen drift]

It'd be handy for sure. shaye inspired me to finally make an emote and i had to relearn the CSP animation timeline for like the 5th time cuz i keep forgetting what does what

[tribal canyon]

'''++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
''' hope that works on mobile

[shy pawn]

Well - You don't forget what something does in code. If you write the function clearly and using patters its easy. The one thing you need as the primagean would say "Time in the saddle"

[ocean agate]

....i still look it up and i can do a few things but i always forget how to get out put for errors

[shy pawn]

after you write a lot of code you kinda dont see code

you see the data flow

you see patterns

[flat moat]

I work in DevOps, specializing in server hosting, deployments and software integration. I generally integrate IT infrastructure and code in order to maximize up time, scalability and reduce time wasted through automation

[bright condor]

Is that supposed to mean anything?

[shy pawn]

thats a long answer to say you don't really code ?

[tribal canyon]

It's hello world

[nova bough]

back end infra does have some coding

[brazen drift]

that example post up there reads like latin to me and i cant for the life of me figure out wher the 'comment' should be so im gonna go with im code-illiterate

[shy pawn]

Yeah but writing Terraform or Kubernetes configs is no the same as writing code

[flat moat]

What's your experience then?

[shy pawn]

11 years - Working with Web + Cloud

[bright condor]

Oh in that one language that's just pretty much bulls* right?

[shy pawn]

Devos, backend, frontend

have my own gig

now working as a consultant for IBM, Bosch

im from europe

[tribal canyon]

Yes

[shy pawn]

so automotive + cloud is a big thing

[bright condor]

I will let these two argue over nothing honestly bye yall

[shy pawn]

It was not the best example I will tell you that.. wait

[flat moat]

Is this just memeing btw?

[shy pawn]

/**
 * Calculates the final price of an order including tax and optional discount.
 * 
 * @param {number} basePrice - The base price before tax or discounts.
 * @param {number} taxRate - The tax rate as a percentage (e.g., 20 for 20%).
 * @param {number} [discount=0] - Optional discount as a percentage (e.g., 10 for 10%).
 * @returns {number} The final price after applying tax and discount.
 */
function calculateFinalPrice(basePrice, taxRate, discount = 0) {
....

This is maybe a better example from one of the production systems I have

you can understand what this does even without the comment but in this case the comments are used to give me documentation in my IDE

which is a good feature thats why I have the @param

[brazen drift]

i can certainly read that this time

[shy pawn]

so this is how it looks like and I now know

in 20 years

what this code does

I need a base price and a tax rater with a optional discount.. I don't even need the comment per se, but its a nice to have in JS since I can get this popup

[strange ember]

Actually which program do you use?

[shy pawn]

No ?

[strange ember]

Is that brainf*ck?

[bright condor]

I believe so ye

[ocean agate]

in web development there is a master sheet with color codes. when i do art i sometimes write out my color hex

[brazen drift]

I use CSP

[worthy ivy]

is hello world right?

[shy pawn]

function decideNextAction(status) {
  if (status.isParked && !status.isLocked) {
    sendCommand('lock');
    return;
  }

  if (
    status.isLocked &&
    status.isParked &&
    status.batteryLevel > 30 &&
    !status.isRunning
  ) {
    sendCommand('startEngine');
    return;
  }

  if (status.isRunning) {
    return;
  }


  if (status.batteryLevel <= 30) {
    console.log('🔋 Battery too low to start engine.');
    return;
  }
}

here is another example from a POC im working on

would you sayu this is readable?

If you read this code, is this understandable?

[brazen drift]

uh

[indigo wadi]

Nope but I don't know what I'm reading outside of the comment

[brazen drift]

yeah im with chaz orz

[flat moat]

Cool, then it's just coming off as sanctimonious given I've spent the last 2 years of my life writing PS scripts, backends and the likes for work.

[brazen drift]

i can't decipher code to save my life

[ocean agate]

i find it funny because it has a console log, isnt that the same as having comments?

[shy pawn]

Then you would confirm to me that the above code is readable right?

[indigo wadi]

You wrote Pirate Software scripts? 😮

[shy pawn]

no

[flat moat]

Power shell

[ocean agate]

the point is to quickly understand the code. the console log explains that code shows battery level is to low to start engine. comments would break down each part but show the same thing

[gritty tartan]

AI Thor confirmed

[shy pawn]

what?

The console log here is so that when I run this script, which I run thru a CLI since its a backend service, i can see some feedback in my logs

thats it

I could change the log to be a MQTT message which is sent later to a car

or to a Phone

In this cases, as its a POC i want to see if the log is triggered at all

one thing to improve with this code would be definint what a status is

in Typescript or JS i could do this:

type CarStatus = {
  isLocked: boolean;
  isRunning: boolean;
  isParked: boolean;
  batteryLevel: number;
};

and then refactor the function: function decideNextAction(status: CarStatus) {

then we know that we have pre-defined status-es for the car

and then we know that in the function - depending on the status of the car we do something

so no comments needed

[ocean agate]

if not for the console log i feel it would be a bit to gibberish and could reference anything so for me it acts the same as having a comment placed on it

[shy pawn]

I would argue a comment is useless

[ocean agate]

but you coded it

[jolly sky]

Doesn't mean it can't be used. It literally doesn't matter if comments are used.

[ocean agate]

so for you, you might not needed it, but comments are for people who come after

[shy pawn]

sure, but even if I would see this code in the wild it would be easy to understand, what kind of comment would give more clarity in this case?

can you give an example?

what comment would you like me to add to make it better

[shy pawn]

100% with you

you can use use comments - but usually in this case I would even draw a diagram

Since its a "service communication"

[jolly sky]

So, whats the problem

Accept comments can be used, you don't have to use them

Move on

[shy pawn]

Problem is that saying you NEED comments to understand code is a bit stupid

[strange ember]

Yeah, I'm utterly unfamiliar with that one... you might want to do a kind of... "example" or "palette"... kinda like you see for colors on some digital art?
Only a separate file that you use to show what your standard settings are for various things you do.
Like... your standard outline brush and its settings, your standard font, your usual offsets for highlights and shadows, what smudge settings you use for blending, etc...

Kinda like... uh... this, only ya know, with real values and in a way that makes sense to your brain instead of something I whipped up in MS Paint in 2 minutes

[ocean agate]

i would have to have an idea of the whole project to understand how to add comments, the fact that i cannot is why comments are needed. so anyone can quickly identify a possible problem without fully understanding all the code to be able to apply a possible fix and test alternatives for a solution

[flat moat]

You could improve it by having the battery check condition come first as an initial condition but if we are getting to the original point of comments, I stand by that comments are a hard requirement when it comes to working with others over "common code" because people will blindly configure en masse

[jolly sky]

Sometimes they needed, depending on use.

For example in Thors case, he uses comments for the ARG part of the game, and IIRC when he passes he has said he wants Heartbound to be opened up to the public

So perhaps understanding why comments are used is a better way of thinking about it

[ocean agate]

"its obvious" apply that logic when watching people play DnD and get stumped by a door knob

you turn it....thats the answer

[strange ember]

one person's obvious can be another person's Moon Logic

[subtle gate]

leaving notes for myself feels like it should be applicable in other areas in life 🤔

[strange ember]

Me too

[ocean agate]

moon logic

[shy pawn]

I've worked with teams of 2 up to 10 people, and we never had comments explaining everything. Like I said, you would usually comment on some weird behaviour or a "hack" you did in the code and write to other programmers something like "used a hack here since X technology does not allow Y feature" or I would leave comments on some logic which is something like "I did this so the message is being sent multiple times.. " so writting comments is to explain the WHY not the WHAT.

also some pitfalls, its nice to add comments for a function that has weird behaviour or side effects. But yeah like everything in programming.. it depends

and you are correct the check could be moved but would not change much in the logic since all code paths return after the check is thru

[strange ember]

I forgot to check my deadbolt/latch status and locked myself out of the house the other day.
I have legit stood in front of the oven I've had for 20 years and gone "Wait, which knob goes to which burner again?"

[brazen drift]

i still have to do that cuz ours has double burners

[ocean agate]

in the end its all personal preference, since as long as it works, it works

[shy pawn]

there is also a whole science called Clean Code - where the toppic of this is discussed

how to write clean and readable code

[strange ember]

Fair warning... transparency can be a PITA occasionally 🙂

[shy pawn]

https://www.google.at/books/edition/Clean_Code/_i6bDeoCQzsC?hl=en&gbpv=0

No meme but I would recomment any coder to look into this book

it will change your life

[subtle gate]

could we make a #debate_room ?

[idle hill]

NO

no

[ocean agate]

almost asked what PITA ment....i figured it out as typing it

[idle hill]

we already had one of those

[strange ember]

please no

[subtle gate]

or would that be redundant?

[jolly sky]

You could ask in a mod ticket but uh, yea thats gonna get shot down I imagine

[strange ember]

https://tenor.com/view/pita-pit-wrap-canadian-fast-food-gif-14683207164923711251

Obviously 🙂

[ocean agate]

the only thing that would be posted in a debate room is who is the master

[shy pawn]

https://tenor.com/view/burek-gif-12406865

This is a pita where im from

[late bane]

So what's the discussion today

[strange ember]

(Obviously "pain in the A")

[jolly sky]

This should just be the header for almost everything in life

[flat moat]

Yeah, I'm not arguing for commenting on everything, only where it's reasonable and makes senses. I often leave comments in yml configs so that other teams know where to input entries for their change request, makes documentation and troubleshooting much easier on me lol
I also put in comments on things with reqs that would or could be prone to change.

If they want to know how code works, the documentation attached will have a description of it's overall purpose😃

[shy pawn]

I mean its a good practice to write readable code

thats my whole argument

it will make you a better engineer

[strange ember]

I'm in the "comment by default, overexplaining has saved my caboose before" camp.

Though I will say the examples like "I did this so the message is being sent multiple times.. " or "if you set this to anything but 2 the project won't compile" are in the more mandatory side

[shy pawn]

and it will make the life easier

of you and others

[flat moat]

100%

[shy pawn]

ofc add comments where needed

[strange ember]

I wish that last sentence was true more often

So much

[shy pawn]

but also challange yourself in making nice and clean code - my prof at uni alwasys said, you write code for people not for computers

and I still love this

[jolly sky]

Alternatively

[shy pawn]

I mean It matters

I take pride in my work

I want to be the best dev I can be

I love what im doing

and I want to improve and I want to make good software

and not slop like discord 😄

[strange ember]

I've ran into so much terrible documentation over the years that I just don't trust anyone to do it anymore. I'll check it, but holy goddess, I don't think doc writing is a skill most coders have

[shy pawn]

( hate on discord since it has a lot of issues on linux )

[ocean agate]

"best" is subjective and evershifting goal post

[jolly sky]

Then make it work for you, do all you can be, but bare in mind the moment where you try to make others do it, or rate them based on your own practices, is where you're going wrong

[shy pawn]

lol 100%

[strange ember]

Take off the last two words, IMO

Discord is a good idea wrapped in a series of half-baked implementations

[shy pawn]

well.. the point is to be better today then I was yesterday

[late bane]

The hotpocket of apps

[idle hill]

ah shoot game's gotta work on browser thats right

[shy pawn]

I mean.. did you go to school?

You get rated on the knowledge you have

Im not making anyone do anything Im just sharing my knowledge and experience

and like I did with @flat moat we kinda agree on the topics

we came to a understanding

[strange ember]

School and industry are misaligned more often than you'd think

[shy pawn]

ofc I learned sh** in school

99% of the knowledge i use is due to me working on my own on the skills, however, school tought me to learn..

and to understand

but the point is you can't be ignorant to all oponions or advice you get

99% of the time its BS

[idle hill]

I learned about rocks and how to read a map with a compass

[shy pawn]

but 1% of the time its something that makes you better

[outer cobalt]

I deal with legacy code. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. So called readable code is NOT readable after 10 years. Give me comments or a link to the ticket tracking system.

[shy pawn]

Yeah thats also a good argument to make, especially if its a language thats not used that often

[flat moat]

As you should! I often find when I'm working with devs at my work, we can't always make a clean code break so we have a 4-5 page document describing why we've set things up the way it has been and we work on setting up a time in future to look at and possibly remake it for optimization purposes. Clean code is the goal, especially when it comes to automation because things can break really quickly in my experience

[strange ember]

You have no idea how much I wish those last 5 words were the point/goal of education systems

[shy pawn]

but also I worked on a angular 1.x project - and tbh I never read more beutiful code in my life

[outer cobalt]

Games often prototype first before getting productionised. Even after 1-2 years it can be a trainwreck

[strange ember]

Yeah, I was going from a longer term perspective myself. You'll understand it in a few months... but a decade?

[shy pawn]

I mean I do POC all the time, since I present some solutions to clients like the car battery thing on top

and POC is something like ap rototype

[outer cobalt]

The process of productionising code usually leaves no time to clear tech debt

[shy pawn]

just a one off you show

[strange ember]

tech debt sucks

[shy pawn]

but still I try to make it as readable as possible since thats a "skeleton" I can orient myself

in my exp tech debt is the outcome of bad management sadly

[outer cobalt]

Nope, its a result of experimentation and time constraints.

you can say bad management makes this worse, yes

[shy pawn]

time constraings = bad management

[outer cobalt]

Not necessarily, it can come from the publisher

[shy pawn]

I mean true, Im talking more from a general software perspective

[outer cobalt]

Its complicated and made worse by bad management

ig, since most software doesn’t really have time constraints

As in its artificial

[shy pawn]

Anyway good talk, see ya gotta go sleep damn

its 2 in the mornign

[flat moat]

Have a good rest, Neo!

[strange ember]

Time constraints are the result of reality. They're worsened by external pressures from other aspects of a project, but they're not JUST from management/publisher.

If I make a piece of software in a decade and someone else makes a similar thing in a year... I wasted 9 years

(usually)

[ocean agate]

not a waste if you learned from it

[strange ember]

Perspective. To me that's salvage

That's an amusing this to glance down and see

[muted robin]

yeah that one YT short is one of my favorite shorts to randomly remember and giggle over

[late bane]

Lol

[muted robin]

but i didn't think the mods would appreciate me having tats with an i as my nickname

honestly i don't see what the problem is even if thor has "bad code" bc he made a short once pointing out how undertale is coded, not to go "haha toby fox sucks" but to say "one of the most legendary games of all time is written with what's considered bad code, it doesn't matter if your code is bad it matters if you make games"

[late bane]

Long as it works

[muted robin]

and i feel like that fits with thor's overall ethos that he's stated over and over again which is "it doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to exist, make games"

[proper phoenix]

Where is the latest vod
I was waiting to rewatch the streams

[strange ember]

fair

https://tenor.com/view/nice-pair-of-boobys-gif-26373613

[muted robin]

i don't think he's ever advertised himself as "i am the god programmer who teaches best practices of coding, do what i say" so for me it's not realy realevant

[strange ember]

nuked

[late bane]

https://tenor.com/view/morning-birds-good-goodmorning-flowers-gif-27085269

[proper phoenix]

why

[muted robin]

and now any time i post a message when thor is online and in chat he has to relive that moment

[proper phoenix]

My eyes does not like what it is seeing

[strange ember]

Drama Farming "Gotchas"

[late bane]

What a fever feels like

[muted robin]

but why would you farm someone over something that can easily be disproven through looking at easily accessible very popular clips by thor-- i'm using logic again

[strange ember]

I assume to avoid the discussion of the C++ coder "gotcha" video being used to fuel more of the Hate Mob

[proper phoenix]

Another drama ?

Buh

[ocean agate]

i can show you a picture of Zultralord i found, would that make your eyes better?

[strange ember]

Yup, you're treating humans as rational actors again.

[proper phoenix]

I was hoping to lurk man
Why are there another drama not even 1 day after skg chat was nuke

[proper phoenix]

[ocean agate]

he wants belly rubs

[subtle gate]

I was hoping to go without mentioning that acronym

[strange ember]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwhiz0s2x8
If you want to see the source. Not letting it embed because don't wanna

[subtle gate]

one day is all I ask

[jolly sky]

It's not another drama really, it's the same drama sadly

And as it always has been, manufactured drama

Youtube has become a cesspit of it, thank goodness for "Don't recommend channel"

Been using that heavily for the past week

[late bane]

I thankfully haven't seen any videos on him in my feed other than his

[hazy storm]

Unfortunately my YT algo seems unconvinced i actually want to ignore it

[raw condor]

Dr. K says internet users aren't "human" at all-- They're human adjacent.

A human has a face, a voice, you can talk to them and read their emotions through communication. People on the internet can so quickly communicate through harassment and bad faith and then just go about their normal lives afterwards without any real consequences

A lot of these dicks are demonstrably less than human

[proper phoenix]

So what is this new drama ab

[jolly sky]

same drama from 10 moths ago, SKG

[strange ember]

There will be drama indefinitely. It will lessen in frequency as people get bored, and spike as people discover it anew.
Welcome to humanity + internet + engagement algorithms
Situation Normal: All F'ed Up

[jolly sky]

Just amped up to 100 quadrillion

[strange ember]

From 2004

[jolly sky]

God I still love that

[late bane]

Aged well

[jolly sky]

I've got it saved in my meme folder too

[strange ember]

Oh that does have cursing on it... whoops

[jolly sky]

It's just so apt

[proper phoenix]

Found it
Gonna check later when i finish class

[strange ember]

it's quicker for me to just google it XD

[hazy storm]

We just have to do our part in making sure Thor still feels appreciated and loved and that making content is still worth it

[jolly sky]

mine is the, censored version lmao

The only people that I previously watched before they covered the SKG stuff that I'm still remotely interested in watching is Josh Strife Hayes and Louis Rossman

[strange ember]

"Thor is popular target, I can jump on bandwagon and get views"
Ya know, the usual drama farm BS