streamchat

[misty hound]

I am sorry I will only believe this when I actually see this. Most of these things can be solved by literally allowing people to put an IP into the client side via a console command or a prompt window.

[wet storm]

"that person"

[thick ledge]

you agree to it being a license with a limited life when you buy it, it says on the box, it says when you launch the game

[maiden talon]

IP for what?

[indigo wadi]

Thor has pointed this out.

[split tulip]

that is not how most modern games work

[indigo wadi]

he has 2 videos addressing it

[jolly sky]

Then you vastly underestimate game design, networking, and everything involved

[brisk sparrow]

Whos gonna run the servers that you "enter the ip for" and connect to?

[wet storm]

It says it under a tucked away paragraph in the EULA. The store says BUY

[elder scaffold]

Thats not how that works

[lunar moth]

No, he's actively making it worse. Because, again, this is politics - it is all about how you influence other people to do your job for you, without overtly stating it.
If you want non-politically charged video explaining it, here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&ab_channel=CGPGrey

[maiden talon]

whos paying for the servers?

[misty hound]

Network IP Address

[maiden talon]

because like I said, it WOULD NOT be the devs

[candid shuttle]

Ok. Even if there is already a sequel using the same code? Even if its in a highly competetive market? Even if doing so compromises security for users of botht eh new game and the old one. Even if it means sharing a game with security flaws that if someone somehow gets hacked for them will be blamed on the original publisher.

I 100% understand what we want to do here and games are art and should be preserved and made avaialable. But a much better solution is making a worldwide foundation that preserves games and if a game makes profit through its availability that provit goes back to the devs.

[maiden talon]

because the game would be EOL, they dont need to pay for the servers

[exotic forge]

This other person needs to just call Todd Howard and get the design documents for Elder Scrolls 6. They won't believe anything until they see the actual docs

[thick ledge]

your problem is with contracts, people dont want to read the contract they are signing. thats not anyones fault but thier own

[elder scaffold]

Ip address to what?

The servers that the devs shut down?

[thick ledge]

you are buying, a license

[jolly sky]

God I've said it enough times against an unmoving brick wall that I don't know which specific one you mean

[misty hound]

Sorry but people building their own MM and then forwarding to another server to actually play the game on isnt WITCHCRAFT

[wet storm]

The contract is malicious in nature. Buy means buy, not rent.

[thick ledge]

it does not

you arnt renting

[indigo wadi]

something about losing ip rights with regards to SKG

[jolly sky]

Oh its true, I can find the actual video

[tropic wraith]

FFXIV isn't even considerable for the initiative though? It only affects games to be made after a period of time.

And if the community wants to let a game die,
they will let it die, like Meet Your Maker,

On the other hand, some games have been preserved by the community like Echo VR, even though Meta didn't give any outright support to it.

Also, the developer perspective only goes so far.
Could it be problematic for Indies or small studios? Possibly, unless the inititive only targets large studios, which is what I'd suggest.

Is their technical limitations? Not really. You can design a piece of software or game to decouple certain modules, such as Auth, DRM, payment methods, etc.

Is licensing an issue? Possibly, but then again, a lot of games already have alternative solutions to 'licensed' media. For example, the Life is Strange series and a few other games have 'Streamer Modes' that replace copywrited audio and music tracks.

[thick ledge]

imagine buying a ticket to a concert and then throwing a fit when the concert is over

"i bought a ticket! buy means buy! im allowed to be here!"

[frozen sonnet]

I’m gonna do this now

[indigo wadi]

well...there was that whole fyrefest fiasco

[wet storm]

Jesus Christ zafaroth we had this conversation seventeen hyperbollilion times

[misty hound]

The issue is the moment you try to make games accessible sometimes that requires you to hook out DRM and makes it straight up illegal.

[frozen sonnet]

“It’s my concert now!!!”

[wet storm]

My neurons are experiencing fatigue

[exotic forge]

Gotta admit, this made me laugh out loud

[wet storm]

You know what I'm gonna say

[thick ledge]

yeah, thats what confusing me, you seem to have forgotten the whole conversation

[wet storm]

"It's more like buying a cd and have it be sniped"

[lime pewter]

just so everyone is blatantly aware, whenever a streamer talks about anyone in a negative light that person negatively talked about is going to get hate even if the streamer publicly announces they don't condone it, it's what happens. you can try to morally justify in whatever way you want but hate IS inevitably always the result of online criticism if the pool of people viewing it is large.

[exotic forge]

They tend to do that...

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

[weary bear]

My favorite part of Thor's SKG video was him claiming publishers needed to endlessly support the game, when in the video it states "What the initiative would NOT do: Require endless support.

[thick ledge]

we talked about this for hours and came to an agreement on aspects and now your back to as if the discussion didnt happen

[misty hound]

This is such a bad faith interpretation since its clearly stated the concert goes from 20:00 to 23:00 for example.

[jolly sky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=112&v=sEVBiN5SKuA&feature=youtu.be

There you go

[tropic wraith]

Once a game is at end of life though and the developers stop purchases for the game, DRM makes no difference.

[exotic forge]

They tend to do that as well

[indigo wadi]

you can still ban ppl from your community that active do this

[thick ledge]

would you rather games didnt go as long as possible?

and assigned a death date at the gate?

[wet storm]

I was responding to Myke when you replied to me 😛

[tight bramble]

I just hear "yoshi" but in a super deep, mouth full of food voice lol

[misty hound]

I would love to go game as long as possible, especially when run by a community after the devs don't want to/can run it anymore.

[indigo wadi]

what'd you say ta me boi

[thick ledge]

would that somehow be better?

[maiden talon]

what is considered a "large studio" a studio with over 250 employees? 500? 1000? a studio that accepts money from outside investors? thats STILL incredibly vague

[wet storm]

Lots of things

All never answered

😔

[exotic forge]

I believe they wanted to say "developer skill issue"

[misty hound]

The thing is it kinda does afaik. If I bought a game and the DRM server shuts down I cant start the game anymore for example.

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-pablo-lonely-alone-gif-12928789

[maiden talon]

I mean, not all concerts have a start and end time...

[wet storm]

Me when Myke blocks me on discord

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/sonya-sonya-blade-mileena-mortal-kombat11-mortal-kombat-gif-17341521

[thick ledge]

everyone agrees this is bad

[indigo wadi]

ya know what chat? I know exactly what's gonna happen with Ross and Thor after this initiative is over:

[indigo wadi]

i haven't?

[tropic wraith]

Tell that to the Echo VR community 😄

[maiden talon]

all the concerts Ive been to, ive had to figure out the end time myself, and even then they NEVER follow noise abatement rules

[worthy ivy]

do you want 25 years of war because that's how you get 25 years of war

[lime pewter]

sure, it still doesn't change the fact that if you are criticizing someone with a large audience behind you they will be hated on.

[wet storm]

LIVEN UP MATE it's a joke 🎉

[spare topaz]

youre justifying shitty behaviour. you are part of the problem

[indigo wadi]

this past week, it's been the trenches. Gotta show your jokes better. Spotlight that shit

[thick ledge]

this chat is too exhausting and debate means nothing , almost none of us have any influence on the initiative and i simply do not care anymore

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-superhero-gif-26117099

[wet storm]

Understood 🫡

[jolly sky]

"If somebody does not have an alternate solution but they're against our solution, then you are against all solutions" - Ross

And yet, Ross does not want any changes made to his own solution

??????????

[weary bear]

If you are american yes, if you are european you should care.

[candid shuttle]

Yes, that is the idea. The idea is nice, solid even. But lets say itsan old game and security updates and also maintenance is needed. Ok so either 1) Devs do it anyway. 2) third party does it 3) it doesnt happen. Both cases 2/3 open up the original publisher to liabilities.

[lime pewter]

I take you being extremely upset as proof that Im correct.

[thick ledge]

why should i care even if i were european

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-dune-part-two-worm-thumper-thumper-gif-12630280218731847064

[thick ledge]

its gonna do what its gonna do

if im against it, debating it is irrelevant

[split tulip]

by this logic, why would Ross care?

[wet storm]

Me when I see a base of someone who's offline

[misty hound]

Look, with a concert its quite obvious its gonna end eventually. But when it comes to a live service game there is close to no excuse to not be able to host a custom server besides the intellectual property argument. And even that can be ignored if there are agreements made. I think a lof of this just boils down to "Muh agreement won't let me do that".

[thick ledge]

no one is gonna change thier mind, theyre not here for that

[weary bear]

Honestly this whole thing just reminds me of that time the EU made Apple add a proper charging port to their devices. So customers wouldn't be cucked into buying a dongle for their 40k phone.

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/do-your-worst-daddy-angel-dust-hazbin-hotel-i'm-not-afraid-of-you-amazon-studios-gif-11685641926589961889

[maiden talon]

see, I just think its weird that as an american, I dont want people in the EU telling me what I need to do with my game that I make, and if they cant, whats stopping studios from just moving over here?

[gloomy forge]

Thanks for that, gonna watch it maybe later or tommorow.

[thick ledge]

its clear live service games will also end

[misty hound]

Nothing. They can feel free do to that!

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-stilgar-lisanalgaib-fremen-lisan-al-gaib-gif-13633185611076219756

[thick ledge]

thats like the whole complaint

[spare topaz]

i dont give a damn what you take me as. You are in PS's server saying he deserves the hate, you are the problem.

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-dune-2-the-maker-shai-hulud-sandworm-gif-12136657042652702651

[jolly sky]

There is, because a lot of live service games do not run off one singular server. They run off a cluster of servers the could not be ran by an individual, and cannot be adapted to s single server use.

[misty hound]

Yeah but is it because of the nature or is it because a company suddenly decides to slap my favorite toy out of my hands because some CEO is too petty?

[jolly prism]

If you want to sell in EU you have to adhere to EU rules.

[wet storm]

Good things come from this sort of thing

[lunar moth]

Action Dan timestamped it for you. The quote is literally in-context when Ross said it.
It takes about 1-2 minutes and you hear it in-context of what Ross was saying, and yes - it is as bad as you yourself pointed it out to be.

[misty hound]

Sure, thats fine. Then the community will host clusters. People can do that. This is not witchcraft.

[wet storm]

Steam has refunds because of Australia

[worthy ivy]

well yes - if I have a contract that says I cannot share third party assets with others I can totally say "but muh agreements"

[candid shuttle]

Honestly, they both clearly love games, I can see it happen

[weary bear]

Anyone can care, but i doubt that if you are american you would feel fullfilled posting about a initiative that is only able to be signed by other people except yourself. Could be wrong tho, atleast i wouldn't feel as motivated to just post about it online and motivate europeans to sign it.

[thick ledge]

its because of the nature, you argue games of that nautre should no longer exist

which, i dispute

because i love games that are live

its my favorite kind

[jolly sky]

And who is going to pay for the absolutely colossal bill that running those servers takes?

[thick ledge]

and id rather not see them neutered so that peopel can keep playing a community run dumbed down version

[gloomy forge]

ok let me take that in then.

[maiden talon]

oh well, guess the EU isnt gonna play any games I make

[misty hound]

I can buy like 5 servers on hetzner for like 5 bucks each. What the hell do you mean colossal bill?

[worthy ivy]

in fact I legally have to say "but muh agreements" otherwise the people I have agreements with can sue me for breaking the agreement

[green plank]

i always felt like this movement was kinda vibes based

[fluid dome]

I remember when everyone in my country was proposing a tax on rich businesses in the country, and my only thought then was "Literally nothing is stopping them from leaving."

It's the same thing here.

There is nothing stopping publishers from just not making games in the EU

[worthy ivy]

that's what an agreement implies

[misty hound]

If there is a will there is a way.

[jolly sky]

5 servers running off what, a hamster and a prayer?

[worthy ivy]

lmao "but muh agreements"

[split tulip]

vibe-politics

[lime pewter]

When did I say he deserved hate? Lmao

[weary bear]

If this initiative would be succesful that wouldn't be the response

[maiden talon]

trust me, it would be.

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/hamster-playing-spinning-hamster-wheel-youre-in-my-way-gif-14137378913207209659

[thick ledge]

thats blazed's choice

no one elses

[wet storm]

lmao I'm stealing this

[green plank]

like no one has a technical understanding about how this would work, SKG is mostly getting the people that "dont want to be cucked by big business 😼"

[thick ledge]

you can just not sell a game somewhere

^

[weary bear]

Is this an american moment, where you think people could just pass up on the entire european game market. lol

[thick ledge]

they keep telling us they dont need details

and the politicians will work it out

[misty hound]

Sorry I think at this point you are just pretending like these are issues people cant work around. I can go buy a small server for the matchmaking and maybe account services. And when it comes to the actual world instance I am gonna get one that needs what it takes to host the game instance.

[fossil falcon]

I think people fundamentally misunderstand even now - this isnt about existing games, this is a regulation that would be in place to require devs in the future to have end-of-life plans that are simply and plainly stated - currently a bunch of AAA companies can just say "oh yeah we can terminate this service at any time for any reason or even no reason and you can't do crap because this is totally legal"

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-you-have-alerted-the-horse-alert-alert-horse-horse-alert-gif-10675569724654458517

[green plank]

im being very specefic with my language btw

[thick ledge]

like we should trust a bunch of 50-70 year olds to understand the nuances of the gaming industry

[split tulip]

companies can and will do that if it's not profitable or a risk to them

[wet storm]

I don't think it's unrealistic to see, at least for a moment, that the EU loses access to future live service games

[elder scaffold]

Politicians will work it out for the people paying them the most aka the big game companies

[fluid dome]

They want to eat the cake, but they also want to preserve the cake in Amber and look at it forever

[thick ledge]

except its not, person to person what it actually does seems to be different per person

[weary bear]

What im saying is, europe is way to big for them to not care about it.

[misty hound]

No I think these games can continue running just fine. I don't want these games to not exist. Preferably I just want game developers to give the players a way to keep it running after EOL.

[thick ledge]

because no one knows what theyre actually signing

[lunar moth]

Vibe politics is literally the most common form of politics. It is kinda the antithetical position to idealogues arguing for their positions in politics.
Most propaganda is literally built on creating a vibe that people can agree with, a loose message that people cannot disagree with, and then taking that horse and running it somewhere else completely.

[fossil falcon]

have you watched ross' video

i have

its incredibly well-versed

[maiden talon]

Think Helldivers 2, but instead of Sony, its me, and instead of the pope, its all of the EU /j

[fossil falcon]

and goes more into detail on things that were already there but nobody bothered to read

[wet storm]

True

[thick ledge]

watching a youtube video =/= understanding the implications of a vague request to an uneducated political body

[frozen sonnet]

Kendo the killer of games returns

[toxic rampart]

The only thing on their site for that price is cloud and storage.

[candid shuttle]

have you watched Thors? I have? IF you watched Ross. Then you think Thor read it wrong. Heck he didn't even read the first line of the website right?

[split tulip]

if Sony can block 130 countries, then I'm sure they can handle 27 member states

[green plank]

guys, i have a petition to take down Ugandan warlord Joseph Koney, please support 😿

[weary bear]

Developers would bend the knee trust me, you can't just pass up on all of those potential customers lol

[thick ledge]

plenty of indies would

[fossil falcon]

ross has a degree in criminal justice

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-mob-mad-angry-get-hi-him-gif-15559264817013259719

[thick ledge]

especially if the nature of thier game is illegal

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/boy-that-takes-me-back-enzo-ferino-devil-may-cry-that-brings-back-memories-netflix-gif-7950801243205155001

[maiden talon]

I went to college for criminal justice

[thick ledge]

and??? that makes him an expert in copyright law and consumer rights how?

[maiden talon]

I didnt graduate though, cause college is icky

[gloomy forge]

Ugh the way he phrases it kinda irks me. There are alternative but no solutions? How can there even be alternatives if its vague in the first place. Anything can sound like something good or bad then depending on how people like it

I feel just advocate for consumer protection in lieu of games ceasing to function (what everyone is saying) is enough. Plenty of examples how to already. I dislike the way hes phrasing things there. If you discuss the proposals you have to be ready for compromises too. The SKG of the future will certainly not be the SKG of today (as its happening already).

[jolly sky]

So now you're going to be in charge of
Administration
Game design where you understand the game as well as the devs do
Network Engineering
QA
Fixing any bugs that crop up because of you not understanding how the game works

On and on and on and on

[worthy ivy]

so it's only an issue for anyone who wants to make a game from now until the heat death of the universe...

whether or not it's applied retroactively isn't really relevant when assessing the potential future impacts?

[wet storm]

I think it depends on the company

A smaller studio could pass on and say "yeah no we can't afford to SKG"

[split tulip]

you got sentenced to college?! such a terrible fate

[thick ledge]

thats the thomg

[wet storm]

I did say "for a moment"

[thick ledge]

thing

[tropic wraith]

Now I think about it, even for indie developers this probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. As long as you can design certain aspects of your game to be decoupled (like auth, data, transactions), your end of life plan could just be an API list and documentation, community can build the server if they really want to, and in most cases, they want too.

[thick ledge]

if an indie company in europe, cant afford to skg

they just dont exist

that sucks

[fossil falcon]

the primary future impact it would have would be that a game can't be shut down without notice to the consumer

[candid shuttle]

security updates, maintenance would be my immediate problems but good pitches Dan

[brittle jacinth]

or they would try to find legal loopholes

[frozen sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/the-thing-fantastic-four-first-steps-f4-richie-the-bear-here's-the-thing-gif-10866717939802756885

[wet storm]

It's more feasible to believe that a at least one end of life one-size-fits-all would exist

[wet storm]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1027161598164480093/1224233855222022234/IMG_0717.gif

[green plank]

if im one guy making a video game for 5$ (extremely small) and i have like an online feature, would SKG apply to me? 🤨

[fossil falcon]

people successfully rebooted abandoned mmos before, think toontown

[frozen nimbus]

Thomg

[frozen sonnet]

Yes

[green plank]

...

what

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-gif-968943876633031890

[split tulip]

you can read about what kind of burden laws like the GDPR put on small businesses. they hit those way harder than the big bois with all the extra legal and admin work

[thick ledge]

toontown got taken down by disney because it used copywritten characters didnt it

[jolly sky]

And yet, through the many complexities of game design and law, a one-size-fits-all is not possible to implement

[thick ledge]

like toontown rewritten got slapped

[fossil falcon]

nah you can still play it

[green plank]

that would literally, in a night destroy thousands of developers

[fossil falcon]

smiles

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/squid-clear-myself-gif-meme-gif-25725527

[fluid dome]

It's very telling that non game devs are telling game devs how to do their Literal job when I know for a fact if you held them all hostage and forced them to do the same job, they'd shit the bed monumentally

[thick ledge]

hold on google time

[frozen sonnet]

Correct

[green plank]

so i dont have more than 20k dollars 😐

[wet storm]

It's only impossible until someone does it anyway

[brittle jacinth]

depends on how it pass for what we know now yes it would

[weary bear]

Anyone in here thinks SKG is about banning live service games ?

[green plank]

i cant afford skg

[worthy ivy]

"can" ?
"just" !
"if" ?
"most" !

minor issues with word choice

[fossil falcon]

and if SKG passed it'd basically mean people can do that kind of "revival" without the fear of some company coming after them

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-brain-fart-aneurysm-brain-fart-gif-14245785396778695703

[wet storm]

There's a saying I like

[worthy ivy]

most especially "just"

[wet storm]

He didn't know it was impossible, so he did it

[thick ledge]

nvm its literally impossible to google this specific situation

[worthy ivy]

I see a lot of "just"

[fossil falcon]

like dude if you abandon the game you don't get to whine that people are reviving it

[wet storm]

Can be she too, it's inclusive

[fluid dome]

My headache is back again

[thick ledge]

because toontown has corporation stuff

[worthy ivy]

and it's just not that simple

[frozen nimbus]

[misty hound]

Because thats what the EU wants. They dont want a literal law to pass:
The Commission shall provide easily accessible and comprehensive information and assistance about the European citizens' initiative to citizens and groups of organisers, including by redirecting them to the relevant sources of information and assistance.

You are assuming malicious intent where there is none.

[green plank]

i guess SKG's goal is to make it... so that only the triple A studios can afford to make video games 🤥

[fluid dome]

I'm blaming Thor

[thick ledge]

why would my game be any less my game because im not working on it anymore tho 🤔

[jolly sky]

Ross has literally stated himself that he does not want certain games to exist or be developed. And he does not want to change his stance on SKG. So yes.

[wet storm]

Hit your head really hard against a door
SOURCE: I'm not a physician

[green plank]

waity

so if SKG goes through, all small companies die

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-brain-fart-aneurysm-brain-fart-gif-14245785396778695703

[fossil falcon]

google the concept of abandonware

[green plank]

its literally just nintendo and playstation

[worthy ivy]

thank eff it's not just me... thought I needed a tinfoil hat for a bit /j

[green plank]

everyone else dies off

[frozen nimbus]

Did he curse forbidden knowledge upon you

[brittle jacinth]

depends on how it pass

[thick ledge]

Abandonware is when the copywrite owning companies go defunct and no one holds it, thats not the same @fossil falcon

[weary bear]

never heard that

[tropic wraith]

Yeah I'm not the best at writing, dyslexic brain.

Still, I'm a software engineer and build systems with redundancy and fallback cases.
Given time you can build whatever you need

[fluid dome]

Cries in Blynx Timesweeper being held hostage on the og xbox

[summer night]

did you forget to drink again?

[lunar moth]

You want to know how to fix the issue?
Literally make it so platforms like Steam and developers have to state what type of game you are buying.

That's it. No vagueness, no issues with developers having their code be outlawed (again, this is part of SKG), no issues with consumers because you can literally just "vote with your wallet" (which he has also said "isn't enough" because "boycotts don't work").

I don't know how to make this abundantly clear but Ross Scott literally just want some games to not be allowed to be made anymore. That's it.

[thick ledge]

ross has stated repeatedly he isnt willing to bend or compromise at all

[fossil falcon]

nope abandonware is defined as a game that is no longer accessible through any commercial means

[elder scaffold]

downloading Abandonware is still piracy

[fossil falcon]

and was therefore abandoned

[wet storm]

Mokkurkalfi be like

[fluid dome]

I have my water with me, this circlejerk is tiresome and I hate it. Makes me feel like dogshit

[misty hound]

The thing is he is wording it so unbelievably bad faith it sounds like ross wants to ban mmos. Thats not the case.

[split tulip]

abandonware is already a legal grey area. not in the public domain, but no company that is pursuing lawsuits

[thick ledge]

@fossil falcon Abandonware is a term for software, typically video games, that are no longer for sale by conventional means and are distributed by warez websites for free. The use of the "abandonware" term is controversial, as distributing out-of-print software and games is still considered software piracy, and their copyright is not actually abandoned. Some publishers actively file DMCA takedowns of abandonware and defend its copyright, while others do not.

[weary bear]

He claimed Ross said he doesn't want certain games to even exist. Which i never heard before

[thick ledge]

your right about the term, but distributing it is a crime

[green plank]

ok, fine, if we are allowed to curate how people make things, im going to start a petition making it so that youtubers arnt allowed to have graphics on there thumbnails due to the misleading nature of clickbait content (and the potential negative effects on children) 😎

[thick ledge]

he has said that too, i cant source that cuz theres like 40 hours of skg content

[candid shuttle]

Ask Action Dan he has the timestamp

[brisk sparrow]

Also slight nitpick: but abandonware isn’t just games

[thick ledge]

dan apparently has it

[green plank]

actually how many of these youtubers do clickbait

[jolly sky]

He also literally said "If you don't have any alternatives to our solution, then you are against all solutions."

Which for an Initiative that would undoubtedly see changes if it were to go through, is an incredibly silly thing to say or mean

[fossil falcon]

i think it shouldnt be a crime

[weary bear]

I only believe things i see so i can't agree with that

[misty hound]

Yeah. Pretty much. Its like "you can use this because nobody is gonna bother suing you"

[summer night]

i get that its why im not in here just see if people are arguing

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/kurt-angle-stare-100-yard-stare-meme-gif-251436459491629941

[worthy ivy]

no, that's not what I meant - your writing is fine, I just see a lot of "if" and "just" - plus "can" makes a load of assumptions

it's never "just" anything - there's so much going on behind the scenes that is completely hidden from the consumer

[split tulip]

only this thumbnail ^

[wet storm]

Bro go a step even further beyond

[green plank]

including the "legacy" youtubers like jaclseptieye and pewdiepie, they all had LOADS of clickbait and misleading vids

[wet storm]

Write a petition that bans youtubers

[weary bear]

How does that translate to he doesn't want certain games to exist lol

[wet storm]

But keeps youtube

[green plank]

i mean, im cool with it

but

[candid shuttle]

ok, fine, if we are allowed to curate how people make things, I'm going to start a petition where every Youtuber has to pay me one dollar consultancy fee before they post their video.

[wet storm]

You can be like, a studio

With people

[green plank]

if we are gonna start curating ppl

[thick ledge]

if you wait a bit, i hear @jolly sky has the sauce on that

[green plank]

we curate ALL ppl

[wet storm]

But not just some dude with a camera

[split tulip]

only if I get half

[candid shuttle]

DEAL

[brittle jacinth]

its some of the problem, we can't

[jolly sky]

I didn't say it translates. I said that he said that On top of saying that he he doesn't want certain games to exist

[thick ledge]

i just dont have the time to re-get it myself

[tropic wraith]

yeah, but these things will always be 'hidden' from the consumer anyway, only a dev would tackle the case of server infrastructure

[fluid dome]

My personal take is that I shouldn't be nuked from orbit if I download a rom of Corey in the house for the Nintendo DS off of the Internet

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890
This gif makes me so happy

[earnest mirage]

too much work. grok, can you curate all people.

[misty hound]

Hes playing on a technicality. Games that aren't accessible after EOL wont exist. You technically banned making some type of games.

[weary bear]

Yeah im just waiting for evidence of him saying " I dont want certain games to exist"

[green plank]

also artists on twitter 😼 , you all arnt except either, you are no longer allowed to draw appealing characters (this will also be kept vague ^_^)

[jolly sky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEVBiN5SKuA&t=112s

Here's the "Against all solutions" clip, and I shall endeavour the find the other source

[thick ledge]

your probably not going to find an audio clip of him saying something so direct, hes very good at dancing around condemnable statements while still saying them

[green plank]

oh, and people that make music, you cant use guitars or pianos in your music anymore, no reason just cause

[worthy ivy]

that's the nub of the disagreement - devs are all "this will be a shedload of extra work, who pays for that" and consumers are all "but we want our games to live forever, you worry about that"

and then we don't expect games to be $200 a go by next year? I see trouble ahead, stormy seas, portentous wailing on the wind

it's going to be an interesting end to the decade I think, for better or for worse

at least it'll be interesting 🙂

[thick ledge]

like making an hour long video, 33 minutes of which are dedicated to thor, and then saying hes not directing hate to him

[misty hound]

He even literally says "If you dont agree with the idea of preserving games, you don't want to solve the problem"

[thick ledge]

technically true, but you knew what would happen

[weary bear]

I fail to see how the initiative would result in games ceasing to exist.

[jolly sky]

No, that is not what he said at all

[misty hound]

See this is why this is so infuriating. Half the people in here pretend like he wan'ts to ban games because he doesn't like them.

[green plank]

wait

doesnt charlie (moistcritical) have a comic series?

[gloomy forge]

Hmm from that perspective it does make sense, I mean people also never consider that what happens to the games once steam ceases to exist (far future) too?

Maybe I'm strawmanning here, but I'd still wish that once you buy a game, the code and everything given to the player should be used for a indefinite time and not just whenever a publisher or a dev feels like it. I get that its their creation but that creation has also other purposes if you give it to people through certain means. If someone says "no art last forever" the question whether or not "at what time" is a different one as well.

[thick ledge]

ye

[green plank]

isnt it called "god slap"

[wet storm]

I suggest not taking these people seriously and just trying to learn as much as you can

There's some valuable kernels of knowledge

Hold on I got a thing for this

[green plank]

wonder how he would feel if his work was review bombed

[jolly prism]

https://tenor.com/view/get-real-gif-26176788

[fossil falcon]

in poland there's a company called aidem media, now known i think as boombit - in the early 2000s they made a series of children's point and click adventure games called "Przygody Reksia" (loosely translating to The Adventures of Rex) based on the character Reksio from incredibly old Polish cartooons - they made I think 7 games total using the license they had, before that license expired, and as they've moved away from children's point and clicks to mobile games, these titles got abandoned, but were preserved by people on various sites - the developers, instead of crying out "piracy" and "this is illegal" went "oh crap the kids that played this silly game series we worked on 15-20 years ago grew up and started a fandom with a bunch of fan-reboot projects, that's kind of cool" and now there's an entire yearly con where enthusiasts of the series meet up, share fan projects around this now defunct series and even get to meet the original devs

[frozen nimbus]

No

[green plank]

jk ofc ^_^

[jolly sky]

His exact words were;

"If you don't have any alternatives to our solution, then you are against all solutions."

Which for an Initiative that would undoubtedly see changes if it were to go through the voting process, is an incredibly oxymoronic statement thing to say

[green plank]

im a very silly guy

[misty hound]

Yes, if you don't want to preserve video games, you do not want to preserve video games.

[jolly prism]

Buddy is on a highway to hammer town

[brisk sparrow]

Verbatim vs quote

[wet storm]

"If you don't have alternatives" and "if you don't agree with the idea of saving games" are MASSIVE COLOSSALLY different

[earnest mirage]

nothing, if steam drops support, poop will be on fire.
but if, they will make sure the client continue to run in offline mode (at this time, when windows release an update and everything breaks, that's not their problem anymore).

[jolly sky]

You literally aren't seeing, hearing or reading the same words that everyone else is

[thick ledge]

"unless you have a better solution, then your against any solution" is an objectively untrue statement

i dont have a solution

but i still think this solution is bad

that doesnt mean i dont want a solution that makes everyone happy

[tropic wraith]

To clarify, when I say devs, I mean consumers who have a development background.

As long as game studios can provide a reasonable solution to providing game infrastructure (such as documentation on server apis), the community will have the oppurtunity to supporting the game at the very least.

In most cases, this is what always happens. If we can do this with a legal basis as well, freaking fantastic, if not, community will still host private servers.

As for game studio developers complaining about 'this is going to take so much work' - only if it isn't planned for.

[thick ledge]

intentionally painting people who disagree with him as the enemy

[frozen nimbus]

^ I think many people like the idea off saving games, we just dont like how this is executing it

[thick ledge]

^

i think games SHOULD be saved

some of them are so important

but the way its being approached rn is dangerous

[frozen nimbus]

Shrek swamp kart speedway

[thick ledge]

and could have alot of unintended consequences

thats what i think about it

and i dont think that makes me the enemy

[wet storm]

Yeah p much

[thick ledge]

but this quote says i am

[worthy ivy]

yeah, but scale that up to every dev team and every game and game-adjacent digital product and you suddenly got a whole heap more costs of production and that will be passed onto the consumer

[gloomy forge]

While he did say that theres many alternatives, I also think that this phrasing, considering what the movement is kinda feels weird since its such a complex issue there will be many points of contention. Its just like the analogy he brings up about the son not cleaning up the room theres gonna be compromises and learning. Especially once experts discuss these things.

[thick ledge]

that sentence isnt over

[jolly sky]

You missed the "You are against all solutions" part

[weary bear]

It's a initiative nothing is set in stone. The technicalities would be hashed out if it passed.

[thick ledge]

you missed the part where he then paints me as the enemy for saying this is dangerous

because i dont have a better solution

[worthy ivy]

"As long as game studios can provide a reasonable solution to providing game infrastructure (such as documentation on server apis), the community will have the oppurtunity to supporting the game at the very least."

says who? cos I guarantee whatever wording the EU comes up with won't even be that sensible

source - was an EU citizen before I was forcibly removed by brexit 🙂

[misty hound]

Because that is literally category theory. If there is only one solution and you are against one solution you are against EVERY solution

[fluid dome]

I gotta say tho I do think it's awesome that RWS are actively doing something about it

[jolly sky]

The same here. The wording as of now means that Developers could quite easily lose the rights to games that they made

And thats an even worse option. Not even counting all the other unending dangerous aspect of it

[thick ledge]

i disagree with ross' approach being the ONLY solution

[fossil falcon]

no it doesnt?

it literally states its not retroactive

[jolly sky]

Which makes Zero sense because there is never ONE solution

[thick ledge]

people think its some apocolyptic situation where this happens or nothing ever happens

[worthy ivy]

yeah, but category theory only models things?

the map isn't the territory

[thick ledge]

i cant make a road map for you to how to approach this

[jolly sky]

I didn't imply it was retroactive

[thick ledge]

im not a legal expert

but im saying the current path is dangerous

[fossil falcon]

you did

[green plank]

ross indirectly endorses the death threats sent to thors dad if it leads to skg signatures. remember that

[thick ledge]

but people dont want to hear it

[jolly sky]

When??

[weary bear]

The initiative does not seek to acquire ownership of said videogames, associated intellectual rights or monetization rights, neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state.

[tropic wraith]

he didn't say he has the only solution, he said if you have alternative, then we're just discussing strategy.
BUT if you're against the initiative, then your alternative solution doesn't really matter.

[fluid dome]

We should all hop in a CoD lobby and solve this like normal people

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/heart-locket-heart-yoshi-big-beeg-gif-20028801

[thick ledge]

no he literally said "if your against our solution, but dont have your own, then your against all solutions"

meaning im the enemy

thats verbatim what he says

[worthy ivy]

when forum PvP gets real

[brisk sparrow]

Which would then require completely restructuring how some games play.

[jolly sky]

Except the very methods that would entail making some games playable after End of Life literally inevitably ends up giving the individual the rights to their game.

[thick ledge]

idk i think ive been pretty chill, and i dont think im anyone in heres ENEMY

but ive been painted as such

[fluid dome]

The real meta is psychological damage by screaming slurs in the microphone

[brisk sparrow]

IE: online multiplayer games.

[weary bear]

what ?

[thick ledge]

you think thats fair?

[worthy ivy]

no problem, we "just" do it it'll be fine /j 🙂

[misty hound]

Well there is two. Save them or destroy them. If you find an inbetween bring it forward, thats what he is saying.

[gloomy forge]

Yeah Ross phrased it abhorently bad IMHO on a movement build on vagueness until people sit down to have a talk this does seem to go against that.

[spare topaz]

A lot of evangelists in chat tonight - SKG must be getting desperate if this many have deigned to shout their alleged gospel at us and denigrate us for our deviant beliefs

[jolly sky]

This absolutionist argument is insane dude

[thick ledge]

thats not fair. saying something is dangerous does not mean you are the enemy. the approach to saving games isnt my way or the high way

[tropic wraith]

yeah, if you're against the solution, and don't have a reasonable solution to the problem (not owning your games), you're just stating you're against the solution for no reason and SKG doesn't need to consider that

[worthy ivy]

the reductive logic is strong in you young padawan

[thick ledge]

i didnt say i was against it for no reason, i said it was dangerous

[worthy ivy]

reduce more!!!

[thick ledge]

and could have unintended consequences

[worthy ivy]

join the dark side of debate 🙂

[stone prairie]

Lots of people agree its vague and Ross isn't a great front... But they also want Ross to rep them in front of the EU Commission with that same vagueness?

[thick ledge]

so they DO need to consider it

[tropic wraith]

I missed that context, my bad.

Still, what do you consider dangerous?

[jolly prism]

https://tenor.com/view/armstrong-made-it-up-gif-25653819

[misty hound]

Well it kinda is if you don't bring forth any new solutions.

[blissful imp]

Josh Strife Hayes still has the best take on this drama btw https://youtu.be/jF-IXeX1hYk

[weary bear]

me when i lie

[thick ledge]

we are trusting EU parliament, a group of 50-70 year old men who barely understand what a video game is, to make nuanced legislation with cutouts for specific groups to protect indies, and i dont trust the government

i dont trust any government to do anything but sledgehammer solutions

[worthy ivy]

goblins together stronk
we weather the storm boyz
🙂

[green plank]

ross said in a comment "i hate to have to twist the knife but if it gets siggnatures then its good"

[fluid dome]

I think it's important to find the devs that are actually speaking about this publicly and actually sharing their stories on what they themselves have done for their own games rather than continuing to fling shit at each other like we're all monkeys in a zoo. It's toxic af and it makes me feel like shit.

[late bane]

[green plank]

what do you think that implies

[misty hound]

Can I remind you that we got USB-C from EU for apple devices, literally a Data Privacy act that people praise to this day and europe is all around more consumer friendly in almost every case? You are being unbelivably bad faith.

[worthy ivy]

bananums

[elder scaffold]

'i dont wanna drama farm but imma drama farm'

[spare topaz]

its not my first rodeo with false gospels and faulty prophets. They have come in here to strengthen their own conviction in their beliefs more than anything

[thick ledge]

requiring a standardized cable, and legislating creative out put are two wildly different things, i didnt say that group didnt have good intentions, i said i dont trust them to make the right calls

[green plank]

exactly thats what ross is doing

[tropic wraith]

to be fair, there's no guarantee anyone will get what they want if SKG passes either, but at the very least you can try to own your games as a consumer.

[split tulip]

that's difficult to do when devs face the possibility of having their games torn down by them mob

[brisk sparrow]

Difference of setting a physical standard vs arbitrary standard on a medium that has an infinite number of nuances and variety

[misty hound]

He never said you are an enemy if you do. You just dont help anyone at this point.

[worthy ivy]

ngl the prime video where he gaslights the ai into the "apes together stronk" thing and working better for banana emoji's...

priceless

[jolly sky]

It's certainly not the absolute truth granted

But I've not seen, heard, or read Ross condemn any of the harassment, hatred, death threats, doxxing, IRL stalking, or any of the other heinous actions of the people that support him.

And yet Thor denounces people who do that on behalf of him constantly.

[lunar moth]

If you go back to around 2011-2012, you'll find folks raising this criticism of Steam because that's around the time games stopped being primarily physical. It took a few years, but that's genuinely the basis of where Ross is coming from. His movement officially started in 2016, but you can find references to his position going further back than that. None that are explicit but that's overall the basis of where this conversation started; game-stores like Steam "what happens when they shut down?"

It wasn't as prolific around the time, but the discussions were sorta like "so which one would take over to fill the spot" and folks start comparing things to Origin and other distributors as well at that point.

At the end of the day, here's my stance: if you know what you are buying, you know what you are buying - some games will last, effectively, forever. Some won't. All of this is fine.
Hell there's even an entire genre of "temporal art" or "self-destructing art", which whilst most people wouldn't care to own that, some do. Some find concerts to be amazing, whilst others want to buy a CD or buy a band's music on Spotify.

This is why I don't view this as a problem because I know what I'm buying.
As long as people knows that, I see no reason why this would be a problem - if this bothers someone, then one doesn't buy said games, and also one should definitely never ever buy a game on Steam at that point.

[thick ledge]

i agree with the spirit, MOST of us do, (theres a couple people in here rage baiting after a week of this at this point) but the inherent danger of putting this infront of the EU without atleast a plan of what the end game legislation will look like is terrifying

[weary bear]

There have been so many youtubers making videos about Piratesoftware adressing SKG. I would find it hard to believe that the majority of them came from Ross himself.

[dusk orbit]

ty to this community for helping skg reach a bigger audience. it's harder for these things to reach wider audiences when there isnt opposition. the biggest killer for any petition or initiative is when people that dislike it actually say nothing because it keeps publicity at its lowest point.

[gloomy forge]

Yes that includes very harsh copyright laws and rulesets like the Urheberecht (which is more archaic and stringent than US law) because DACH region and EU acknowledges that developers are also gamers and deserve some protection as creators.

[frozen nimbus]

Amazing take, if only more people would understand this

[tropic wraith]

That being said, the EU has had some wins in the past couple years for consumers, LTT has mentioned them a couple times on WAN show how they've been protecting consumer rights
(I don't recall specifics sadly)

[fluid dome]

RWS Studios responded to that Q & A from 10 months ago and actually rattled off some things they are doing for the Postal series.

Sure, they're not proposing a definitive cure all, but what they have said proves that it's doable. The industry is just too engorged on its own mass to actually do anything. The fattest ships are the hardest to steer.

[jolly sky]

There's certainly going to be a large amount of them from Ross, and it sure as hell isn't going to be zero

[thick ledge]

i agree they have a decent track record, but what we are asking of them is alot more nebulous than in the past

[misty hound]

No one wants to creatively deny you anything. You can do whatever you want in the currently existing legal bounds. Its about what happens to the game after. If your entire idea for a video game is to make is not accessible after the EOL, yeah thats a bad idea. Nothing is creative about this 99% of the time. People are being scammed ouf of their money most of the time.

[thick ledge]

what if i want to make a limited experience? like markipliers onus project? should i not be entitled to do that? the issue is that we have to trust the government to make intellegent, numorous cut outs for very specific cases to not trample on creativity. i just dont trust them to have the knowledge or interest to do this

[spare topaz]

coming from medical devices - no they dont. The positive spin on the EU is absolutely selective reporting. Some regulations that have come out of parliament are dogshit in their implementation

[split tulip]

No one wants to creatively deny you anything.

If your entire idea for a video game is to make is not accessible after the EOL, yeah that's a bad idea

which one is it? do you decide what the approve or does the creator?

[worthy ivy]

I won't hold a grudge if SKG ends up being a thing - even if the law ends up being stupid - democracy in action, right? whether I like it or not, we've all kind of agreed to play this game called politics

but I /will/ be the first to say "I told you so" when it all goes t*ts up

*if

[thick ledge]

its possible they make blanket legislation that has a ton of unintended side effects that will alter the gaming landscape in unintended ways

[weary bear]

ii. Blizzard reserves the right to terminate this agreement at any time for any reason, or for no reason, with or without notice to you 🥀

[misty hound]

Did I pay a single cent for that shit? No.

[worthy ivy]

no, sorry

"when" 🙂

[thick ledge]

and? i dont understand the difference here. if you pay for a limited experience it cant be limited anymore?

[gloomy forge]

@lunar moth Personally, I wish more for a set of laws that say that "vanished" or "forgotten" games should be allowed to be aquireable even though nobody wants them anymore. Sometimes a developer simply...doesn't care. I feel every intent by a developer comes with many reasons why a game should or should not exist anymore.

But I also say this, you have a very reasonable stance on the matter and I'm gonna think about it in detail, especially because I also remember the whole criticism of Steam. It was way harsher when The Orange Box came out as well.

Btw frenn, if you want to see the best "self destructive game" I've ever seen, play a game called "The Longing", its fantastic.

[lunar moth]

I do like his position, and I think it is a good one. But there is one problem: the comments are turned on still.
His entire point is "let's talk about this in a civil way" and... his entire comment field is demonstrating why his stance is... positive but kinda nonsensical. Because even him, pointing out acurately that one can be civil and disagree with someone including openly admitting to one's own faults and the like...

His comments look like the way they do. Proving him kinda wrong, and that even his position, and his "community" (I don't think most of his community is like that but the comments are still on and haven't been moderated when most of the top upvoted stuff are all openly going against what he's saying) ... well, just look at it.

[terse pelican]

So then if I make a Free2Play MMO, And shut it down, It's fine since you didn't pay for it?

[fluid dome]

It's a meme that Doom runs on everything but I'm actually glad it does

[worthy ivy]

its /likely/ they make... etc

ftfy 🙂

[misty hound]

Sorry are you currently really trying to argue with me that after you paid money for something is a creative choice to deny me access to that? Even if I grant you that I would rather have a court look at this on a case by case basis.

[brisk sparrow]

Reverse crisis

[weary bear]

Im just happy we are at 750k now

[thick ledge]

thats just one potential issue of many, could spend hours combing over the potential problems a blanket legislative effort could cause

[frozen nimbus]

750k?

[thick ledge]

but thor already covered that pretty good in his video

[frozen nimbus]

Keeps going up

[frozen nimbus]

This drama farming really be working ig

[lunar moth]

You are a very reasonable person so I enjoy talking with you, and I think you and I actually agree on more things we disagree - because in theory this stuff should be good, the unfortunate reality is though that as Ross Scott is not media trained ... he has nuked his own intiative to be able to do something positive for gamers, developers, or anyone else for that matter.

But I will say one thing: the thing about "vanished" or "forgotten" games ... that gets into the problem of copyright issues, which are the ones Thor raised as his main concerns in his original video on SKG.
This is kinda the whole issue; every step along the way of what SKG has said so far basically just creates more issues, and more, and more issues, endlessly.

[weary bear]

Yeah last time i checked i think it was at 650

[gloomy forge]

Of course it does

[spare topaz]

the artist owning something means you cannot buy it and truly own it. If games are art then the creator should be the first in line to have a say on how it is used. To disagree is to reposition you not as the customer, but as the patron

[dusk orbit]

got a retweet from elon musk too, i dont like the guy and hes obviously virtue signaling for gamer likes but its still good

[misty hound]

Well if I gave you money for it and you gave it to me for that, then I bought it?

[jolly sky]

Look up CD's and DVD's. If you use it in way that goes against the license, if the company who owns the license to that media were feeling particularly mean, they could remove that from you. Even though you paid for it. They are most likely to fine you however.

[gloomy forge]

The copyright is exactly why people on every side will sit down to propose laws. or else nothing will be done.

[frozen nimbus]

[terse pelican]

Never specified that there was any form of monetization. But by what you said, ''Didn't Pay,'' It doesn't matter

[thick ledge]

no one is really arguing here you should not keep access to something you expected access to

its the edge cases

[worthy ivy]

no, it may be a legal requirement under the terms of a limited third party license the devs have with /their/ software tools suppliers

not all devs write their own tools, usually you just licence them
for a specific set of uses/timescales/instances/whatever - it's not "just" a licence - it's not "just" an IP

it's a whole complicated tangled web of licenses and agreements and contracts and agreed standard practices...

its not "just" anything

[thick ledge]

the edge cases could be really baad

[misty hound]

Sorry where has this ever been done? People would actually go mental if sony broke into their house and took their DVD collection from them.

[lunar moth]

This doesn't really mean anything though. "The politicians will figure it out" - no they won't, they aren't there to figure things out, they aren't idealogues - they are polticians.
They are there to basically create laws and institute policy that makes them likeable to be reelected, or to further empower their country.

[worthy ivy]

"the edge cases /will/ be really baad"

ftfy again 🙂

[fluid dome]

Look as long as Shrek Swamp Racing is left behind, that's fine by me

[gloomy forge]

Drama is a opium for the masses its all good, even if everything passes things will change.

[weary bear]

It doesn't change the fact that he basically ruined the US. But oh well, i take some consumer rights for gamers over the US economy LMAO.

[jolly sky]

If you used that DVD or CD in a way that breaks the license agreement, that is what they can do by law.

[worthy ivy]

am pessimist, what can say

[spare topaz]

does De Medici's name get associated with David? no, it is Michaelangelo's - your giving money does not mean you own the essence of the art. The art is IP that belongs to its creator. You will never, truly, own any creative work you possess, because a part of it will always be directed by its creator. That is intellectual property rights, and that is the law as it stands

[thick ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/mad-pissed-off-anger-angry-fist-gif-17698178

[frozen nimbus]

Zaf has been enraged

[terse pelican]

Wassn't Sony literally in hot water in the early 2000's cause their Music CD's installed some kind of Anti-Piracy BS?

[frozen nimbus]

Run

[worthy ivy]

oh noes

[gloomy forge]

@lunar moth I wrote this a few hours before, but the EU actually consults with hackers and other experts/game devs on the matter.

[misty hound]

Well it says right there. If there was nothing paid the game is out of the picture.

[worthy ivy]

clip that before i edit it

[split tulip]

oh that was 100% illegal and immoral

[frozen sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/plankton-eating-popcorn-popcorn-plankton-meme-plankton-yes-gif-18251234252356731757

[thick ledge]

anyway i dont think this is constructive

this is a discussion people actually involved with SKG should be having

but they arnt

[misty hound]

I dont wanna own the creative work. I just wanna have my copy and not have it taken away from me?

[thick ledge]

so it doesnt matter

[terse pelican]

oh totally

[lunar moth]

Are you talking about this? https://www.ccc.de/en/home

[misty hound]

You pretend like I suddenly own the creative persons work and treat is as my own, as if its not a copy.

[spare topaz]

and what if the creator says no? would you override the artist on what they wish to do with their art?

[fluid dome]

Can Germans learn English, for like 5 minutes please

[gloomy forge]

@lunar moth here is the german side of things (some written in english for the english speaking folks) https://www.ccc.de/en/home they advocate for fairness in digital privacy and sometimes copyright, they've been spoken against publishers taking away rights from developers. So taking rights away by steamlining stuff is a huge no-no.

[spare topaz]

to argue otherwise over a digital piece is specious at best. If games are art, then the artist should have a say in its future

[vivid maple]

sounds like someone being racist

[dusk orbit]

ye like i said obvious virtue signaling but ill take it

[gloomy forge]

Yeah, sorry I was typing these are the guys, click on the link they have an english explaination on their homepage. They also work from all over Europe.

[weary bear]

I'm german, and i find myself having better grammar than alot of americanos LUL

[vivid maple]

just learn german through duolingo

[misty hound]

So why havent they done it? Because they cant. Just because you sign a document doesnt make it legally binding.

[fluid dome]

duolingo

[weary bear]

That's what our boy Elon does, anything to feed that fragile little ego of his LOL

[jolly sky]

You bought the product. You agreed to the licence when you bought the DVD. As per the back of every single DVD and CD case for about 40 years

[wet storm]

Ok chat, controversial take:
Honeyed toast, butter or no butter?

[green plank]

counter point, grammar dweebs are lame 😎

[spare topaz]

oh wow - you've had some bad faith zingers tonight, but this one is chef's kiss levels of bad faith. I commend you on your creativity

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/guilty-gear-guilty-gear-axl-axl-low-gif-26797213

[misty hound]

Well then he prolly should have thought of that shit before selling it to me?

[weary bear]

I'm german, i eat my toast with fresh pork.

[gloomy forge]

Butter, but not much, makes the honey more tasty.

[wet storm]

Dang, butter or no butter?

[weary bear]

no butter

[misty hound]

If I draw a picture and sell it to you for 200k and then say "Ohh my artistic inspiration is to keep the money and I get my picture back" is a bit rude innit?

[gloomy forge]

@weary bear you heathen

I'm just kidding.

[spare topaz]

ah so its not about developers at all then - you just want to dictate how things are used, and the actual creators you rely on for content can go suck it - nice logic you have there. Cant wait to see what kind of gaming sector that creates

[wet storm]

Don't you guys have that white sausage you suck on?

[split tulip]

you can still do it. if it's agreed upon up front

[weary bear]

Oh, this is reffering to the butter part, not the raw pork i assume LOL

[wet storm]

This is not innuendo I promise

[misty hound]

See response above: If I draw a picture and sell it to you for 200k and then say "Ohh my artistic inspiration is to keep the money and I get my picture back" is a bit rude innit?

[gloomy forge]

@weary bear yeah don't take it too serious

[fluid dome]

"No you don't understand, I should get to eat the cake AND own the bakery"

[jolly sky]

This is precisely what SKG wants to do. Whether it knows or not, its methods for making some games accessible to the individual for life, means that they would have give the individual the IP and Copyright of that game.

This is how it all works, and whether SKG is willingly ignoring this absolute fact of the matter, or is completely not aware of it, shows that Ross and the SKG movement is woefully unprepared for an IP/Copyright law discussion, and the EU will throw it out so fast it would make your head spin.

[weary bear]

Are you flirting with me

[weary bear]

I won't dont worry ❤️

[wet storm]

Weisswurst is the name

[lunar moth]

... why would they care about SKG? I'm looking for any references of them mentioning it but I'm unable to find anything.

[gloomy forge]

I hope once everything settles down Thor can somewhat reach out, or others do. I feel the whole bullying and all is very unfair still.

[fluid dome]

I just wanna play games and not deal with drama

[weary bear]

Yeah, but if the game is at the end of it's life cycle. Why would the developers care if some people play pong on privately hosted servers.

[craggy pier]

no, IP and copyright is used to create new versions of the game, not just owning and playing it

[misty hound]

Sure let me give you a 200 page document where it says in one sentence I can do that.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm

[jolly sky]

It is also used for the game that currently exists

[frozen nimbus]

[green plank]

im just shocked they even mention thor

like for example

[fickle bluff]

Aight, so I've been entertaining a certain thought for a while, which I now would like to run by everyone here. We all agree that games are art, right? And their sole purpose is to provide entertainment. So, let's go on a hypothetical journey, using another form of art as reference:

• Imagine yourself a prodigal painter. You you spend decades honing your art and finally create a painting that is praised worldwide as the next Mona Lisa. And you decide to put it out into the world for people to enjoy. So you host your own art gallery. You rent a building, set everything up. Since you're a human being and need things to live, you decide to sell tickets at 60$ that give access to the gallery with no time limitations, basically allowing people to come every day. You also sell refreshments to your guests, to make their experience more pleasurable. And for a time it all goes well. People come and go, for connections and even entire communities. But as the years go by, things start to deteriorate. Fewer old guest come by, and hardly anyone of them buys refreshments. You're barely selling a couple new tickets a month. And it all comes down to a point where you can no longer afford the rent for the gallery, unless paid out of pocket. And so you decide to close the gallery and hang the painting in your house. And you like it there. But suddenly your old guests are unhappy with being unable to enjoy your painting at their leisure. They push an initiative to the government, that ultimately forces you to take the painting off your wall and give it to people. It also demands that you refund everything your guests paid for refreshments.

And herein lies the question: is it morally acceptable to force restrictions on how artists handle their artworks?

[wet storm]

Essay jumpscare

[craggy pier]

They can play the current games they want to

[green plank]

ciritcal, josh, muta, and everyone could have made a video saying "hey guys please check this movement out i think they seem pretty cool, dont forget to like and subscribe peace"

[spare topaz]

if it was a one time thing, sure. But then your painting needs an update to still be viewable, and then what? that's right - you expect the developer to come back and update the thing. And then you decide you want to expand on the drawing, and the developer is forced to give up their tools...

The ramifications of your thought process on the artists whose work you wanna play would be tremendous. You don't want games; you want a curated graveyard

[fickle bluff]

It's all Thor's bad influence.

[candid shuttle]

Just to clarify, no its not only when its like against the law like say explicit content

[jolly sky]

Because if they hand over the IP and Copyright, they no longer have the right to market, work on, make a sequel of, the game or anything else to do with it. It is now out of their hands.

[misty hound]

It's EOL, the painting doesn't get updates.

[jolly sky]

Dude, I just said that whether it knows or not, its methods for making some games accessible to the individual for life, means that they would have give the individual the IP and Copyright of that game.

SKG can say whatever it wants, that doesn't make it true

[lunar moth]

It is basically the same as the concert argument, to which it is very to answer: No, it isn't morally acceptable in any way shape or form.

[spare topaz]

yes, but software and hardware marches on - games will eventually become inoperable purely by the passage of technology. What then?

[weary bear]

I mean it's not the case anyway, because it's never stated that they lose the copyright to their IP.

[split tulip]

and we've been debating for days on how exactly this could be done, without giving up IP rights. this page is just "I want this" not an answer

[misty hound]

Dude have you ever seen a SNES emulator on x86??

[craggy pier]

Youre just creating a strawman just like pirate

[spare topaz]

you mean the tech created against the wishes of its IP holder? indeed i have

[weary bear]

I dislike Thor, but death threats are never warranted. But unfortunately there are alot of lost souls on the internet.

[fluid dome]

Alternatively: I take a picture of the artwork on my phone and thus I never have to visit the gallery after the first visit

[spare topaz]

then you are arguing for the status quo - congratulations!

[jolly sky]

Again, because SKG is not prepared to actually even think about IP and Copyright. These are fundamental things that stand in its way that are unavoidable, and is woefully unprepared to even argue against it.

[gloomy forge]

@gloomy forge It requires some context. A lot of hackers from the DACH regions have always seen Microsoft as how gamers have seen EA. They advocate for open source and freedom "to choose what you have to do with your PC." as every user is somewhat also an artist/wizard.

With these statements in mind they had protectionists (as in protection groupsof people like developers) to be free to choose what they want to do without archaic restrictions because some law proposals can be...very stringent on paper.

They always advocated of freedom of choice and the balance between copyright. That buyers become owners. But also that it doesn't go against the things I wrote above, because that would restrict the freedoms of the groups making things. Not much different than what Microsoft does to the user.

[fluid dome]

Nice self ping

[split tulip]

of all the 17 points listed, I don't see one relevant to the issue. please just cite the exact text you're talking about instead of pointing in it's general direction next time

[gloomy forge]

Sorry it happens.

I meant @lunar moth

[fluid dome]

[jolly sky]

It's not my fault that some people do not understand the magnitude of the colossal brick wall of Copyright and IP in front of them

[hoary pawn]

it would appear that all the dramatubers are finally pivoting away from thor and towards some new drama with ludwig

[thick ledge]

Yes I saw that

[terse pelican]

New Ludwig drama?

[thick ledge]

I also think that drama is nonsense

[dusk orbit]

why would they do that when drama works better

[lunar moth]

You do understand that we can post images in response to you that points out that just because he says the initiative doesn't say that, right?
We can listen to the things he says, and what the intiative is demanding, and easily conclude that yes it is in fact demanding these things.

[hoary pawn]

i didnt bother to look into it, i think some dude got drunk at ludwigs party and so ludwig banned him. didnt seem like drama to me

[split tulip]

I guess the internets healthbar ran out on this issue. on to the next

[thick ledge]

Ludwig encouraged mango to drink at the drinking party, people are saying his behavior is Ludwigs fault

[terse pelican]

Oh that.

[misty hound]

Just because you hold an IP doesn't make you the be all end all decider on wether something should exist or not lol.

[knotty merlin]

Something something "MAH FREE SPEECH!"

[fluid dome]

Mango himself said he didn't want people defending him iirc

[split tulip]

that is kinda the definition of IP

[knotty merlin]

In the same vein as DEG Mods or whatever. IE: "Let me be a shitty person."

[jolly sky]

I mean, inviting a known alcoholic to a party, and celebrating his blood alcohol limit, even when it got to the point of harm isn't a good look regardless

[thick ledge]

I'd the current drama is indication, people do not care, they smell blood

[candid shuttle]

Relevant, I promise: https://youtu.be/VOhc1F-8ZT0?si=AdlBR7abs0_FB-qJ&t=938

[worthy ivy]

ha.
ha ha ha.
ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa 🙂

ha.

"Just because you sign a document doesnt make it legally binding"

ha ha ha haaaaa. ha ha ha.

ha ha.

yes. I am laughing at you
yes I know it's a bit rude
I'm doing it anyway because you won't learn anything otherwise

[craggy pier]

Pretty sure its reasonable for Ludwig to take some responsibility for encouraging Mang0 to exceed potentially lethal alcohol content

[slim berry]

Jacksepticeye published a video shitting on Thor a couple hours ago

[misty hound]

You write into law "After buying a game you can keep the game but you dont own the intellectual property". How is this not gonna work?

[green plank]

i dont mean to sound parasocial (i know this is), but a part of me felt like... disappointed? ya know

[wet storm]

I like this thought exercise, because there's real life connotations of this.

If you destroyed your painting, and it was considered to be cultural heritage, you could be prosecuded for destroying public property. If you were alive and it wasn't a Mona Lisa but something smaller, you'd be fine. But you would be much better selling it to someone who can show it to other people. Art historians would mourn such destruction.

Out of reality to accomodate for the analogy to work IMO

If that painting was xeroxed, and your destruction of that painting caused a ripple effect where every other copy was also destroyed, you'd be persecuted as someone who destroys private property.

And have to defend yourself with the argument that you did stenography on the painting it says it's just a service

[hoary pawn]

do people really expect ludwig to micromanage every single guest at the party? they are grown adults

[spare topaz]

Except IP law states that unless such things are combated, you lose your IP, so...yes, it actually does

[craggy pier]

egging on after shouting 0.32 lets up those numbers when its lethal at 0.4?

[misty hound]

Just because you are doing a le ebic reddit haha doesn't make what I said any less right? If you sign a contract that goes against existing law the contact is invalid?? Or can be invalidated by a court.

[hoary pawn]

ludwig said this?

[lime pewter]

onus is on the alcoholic to control himself and not attend a drinking party. I find people's tendency to try and pass off blame for an individuals lack of self control in recent times very cringe.

[jolly sky]

Because the law is vastly more complex than many people, including SKG, are even aware of

[craggy pier]

so you havent actually investigate it

[indigo wadi]

Joy, big storm hit and power is out.

On Canada's day

[weary bear]

"lets up those numbers !!!" Lud said in a joyful tone as mango drank himself half to death

[fluid dome]

Get owned

[wet storm]

Power's out enjoying Canada day

[worthy ivy]

no - not at all
usually new law will allow for existing contracts

there is no universe where the statement "Just because you sign a document doesnt make it legally binding" can be considered anything other than ridiculous nonsense

[gloomy forge]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WGsefK0etew speaking of art that doesn't last forever

[lunar moth]

I still don't get the relevance if I'm perfectly honest, but this is likely with me not understanding why they would have privacy issues with SKG when SKG would introduce more privacy issues for developers and players.

[hoary pawn]

i said i didnt bother to look into it..

[weary bear]

However mango is an adult, but it definitely is wrong to actively support a friend to drink more especially knowing their history with alcohol.

[hoary pawn]

thats messed up, i didnt know that

[misty hound]

Ok. You are entitled to your opinion. Court cases say otherwise.

[fluid dome]

Mango also could just not have gone to the party.

[thick ledge]

Genuinely, after like 5 days of debate

[misty hound]

Then lets sit down and work something out.

[thick ledge]

This is what talking about skg feels like now

[jolly sky]

I'm not sure you can put the onus of someone who is mentally unwell becuase of his addiction to alcohol, and nor can you trust him to make the correct decisions.

[indigo wadi]

Not when my room got hit by hail

[thick ledge]

https://youtube.com/shorts/lQbCXYJM3qk?si=X9dUgiKv77Kw9CsZ

Same vibe

[indigo wadi]

I don't even know if any of my major electronics work

[candid shuttle]

Eh, I ussually agree with you Zaf. But giving an alchoholic alchohol to the point of achohol poisoning and cheering for this happening when your dad died from being an alchoholic seems like some actual shitty behaviour. But thats my opinion. Anyway focus is SKG rn.

[jolly sky]

Which Ross does not want to do. He does not want to budge on his stance on the Initiative. Get someone else who is willing.

[dusk orbit]

im not im overjoyed since i support the initiative. good lesson for people to understand that with a lot of movements the winning move is to not engage.

[spare topaz]

burden of proof is on you - you made a bald faced statement that a legal document isnt a legal document, we await the court proceedings that dictate otherwise.

You do have said rulings that you just insinuated, right?

[misty hound]

Okay then Valve must be in so much trouble right now.

[gloomy forge]

Hmm it requires some context explaining it, but the general gist is that the CCC would argue both for and against these law proposals in order to both try to protect developers and consumers based on already existing laws.

[thick ledge]

That sucks, but yeah not worth discussing imo

[split tulip]

I don't see why this drinking thing would need to be a public issue. let them sort it out themselves. if people no longer want to hang with the afterwards, that's up to them

[opaque raven]

Evening friends
How is everything going? ☀️

[worthy ivy]

oh, okay then - devs can just break their agreements whenever they like can they? a legal document is a legal document is a legal document

you sign to say you agree to something it is binding - basic 'offer and acceptance'

read whoever-it-was vs the carbolic smoke ball company and then come back to me with that

[spare topaz]

no, because thats where Licensing comes in. Ta-daa!

[thick ledge]

It's cuz it was streamed and mang0 is getting banned from smash events cuz he was creepy to these 2 girls

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-burning-hell-pain-gif-17379863

[thick ledge]

Otherwise I'm sure it would be private

[worthy ivy]

source - contract specialist in insurance for 12 years

[lunar moth]

Yeah, I can 100% see that - but please do send me the links! I wanna read up more about 'em! ^^

[misty hound]

So its like you can make a license where you can allow people to use their intellectual property without them owning it?

[velvet pawn]

I have no clue why anyone would willingly stream themselves drunk anyways. seems like one of the worst things you can do to yourself.

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/final-fantasy-vii-remake-cloud-strife-tifa-lockhart-aerith-gainsborough-cloti-gif-27060423

[jolly sky]

Yea, that is not going to help matters for his own health. He absolutely needs help.

[spare topaz]

yes - and funnily enough, that is how the whole thing works right now

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

[jolly sky]

That is literally how books, CD's, DVD's, Records, and muliple other mediums work.

That existing is how they are able to be sold in the first place.

It keeps the people who made the art, book, movie etc safe from someone claiming that it is their own work.

[thick ledge]

The Capitol G gamer talking to a game developer

[craggy pier]

Yeah we know how IP works but how does the SKG initiative prevents IP from being effective

[split tulip]

licensing is how you let people use your copyrights, without giving them the copyright itself

[worthy ivy]

I'm all in favour of the idea that 'there are no stupid questions' and I don't want you to take this as an insult

that you have to ask that question says a lot - you should really educate yourself about the subject before evangelising in a discord server full of game devs

just my honest take there, no shade for real

[misty hound]

https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=63608&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=529395

[jolly sky]

Because of the methods it wants to employ to make games "Playable" and Ross not wanting to budge on what SKG wants.

[spare topaz]

oh this is rich - you thing licences are an unfair contract? incredible logic

[craggy pier]

But games being playable dont removes Rights to IP

[thick ledge]

If licenses were an unfair contract surely this would have come up already

[outer gust]

Reminder: Civil discussion is encouraged, engaging in personal threats or acting like a jerk will see you disciplined.

[thick ledge]

And you could just litigate it now

[misty hound]

Look I am not gonna argue with this anymore because I geniunly think there is more than enough information available on contracts that were made invalid by court. I don't wanna accuse you of trolling but there has been multiple cases where this happened and I don't feel like continuing having to argue basic facts with you.

[split tulip]

this is about arbitration and only the arbitration clause. it dosen't invalidate all licenses

[opaque raven]

Ye, it's midnight and it's so hot I can't sleep well. Gladly it's just for today here

[jolly sky]

For a large amount of the things required to make them playable on an individual basis, Yes, it does.

See World of Warcraft for just one example of this

[spare topaz]

the terms you sign to buy a game are not unfair, no matter how you spin it, and if you disagree i fully encourage you to file a lawsuit and try it out

i cant wait to see the results

[toxic rampart]

Or just dont purchase said game

[worthy ivy]

that would only apply to a unilateral contract

if it is a bilateral agreement it is much more difficult to demonstrate a term is "unfair"

[fluid dome]

https://youtu.be/rAsgjKBkKMA?si=Wrzc5HHWqyZ4MOvY

Holy shit, not an attack video against Thor

[wet storm]

Holy heck midnight

Go to sleep 🫵

[opaque raven]

Yey Big Yoshi (dunkey's voice)

[worthy ivy]

and the agreements between game studios and their tools-suppliers is most definitely bilateral

*are

[opaque raven]

Can't
Too hot
Headache
Pls send help

[misty hound]

So the whole argument you guys are making is: "Releasing server binaries automatically gives intellectual property rights to every customer". Yet Valve is literally the prime case of that being exactly not the case?

[spare topaz]

valve has a license, you have been told this many times, dont act like you havent

[wet storm]

I lived in the UK for a while and people laughed at me for owning a giant friggin fan

[misty hound]

Yeah I think its time for bed I gotta work tommorrow.

[wet storm]

Until the summer of 2022 came

[jolly sky]

Because of the type of game that it is. It was designed with server hosting in mind.

And when you agree to host a server, you're agreeing to that license.

[wet storm]

This I like

[misty hound]

So if we keep the license and just use different binaries how does this not apply?

[split tulip]

Valve still has the right to take you down if you break their rules

[opaque raven]

I'm on the verge of buying a very expensive mobile AC (that I will only use 3 weeks per year)

[worthy ivy]

in b4 "th0r i5 KlaUs ShCwaB"

[jolly sky]

Because the licence varies from game to game to game to game

[misty hound]

Okay and? This is like cases where people abuse it to hell and back.

[misty hound]

Then make a license for the game that applies the same things?

[worthy ivy]

it's not that simple

[fickle bluff]

See, the government can't just declare your artwork a "cultural heritage" without your consent, enforcing certain restrictions on how it must be handled. That would violate your rights as it's creator.

By all accounts, you are entitled to do whatever you want with your artwork, as long as it doesn't break the law.

The tickets you sold for art gallery don't make people entitled to copy your artwork for themselves and host galleries of their own. Nor are they entitled for a refund to any refreshments they bought and consumed.

[thick ledge]

You know what's funny

https://youtube.com/shorts/BHTa94sEmdA?si=FYN9Snf5AAOirovO

Youtubers inadvertently insulting eachother

Lmao

[misty hound]

Perfect. Now tell me why its virtually impossible to do this for another game.

[jolly sky]

Well, now you've agreed to a license that means you are not allowed to run the game on your computer because you would need to server binaries to do so, which risks the Copyright and IP law of the game.

[worthy ivy]

what?

make sense please

[wet storm]

There's nothing wrong with that if you're able to afford it

Call it the reverse christmas tree

[spare topaz]

whats even funnier about this, is that having now read the judgement of the actual court case, i see you didnt bother to read it, did you? Its about enforced arbitration in a phone contract

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/heart-locket-heart-yoshi-big-beeg-gif-20028801

[misty hound]

But we already established the license says just because I got the binaries doesn't mean I an intellectual property holder.

[worthy ivy]

[wet storm]

Man had a joker moment

[misty hound]

It proves my point about contracts not being legally binding after it went trough a court. I think its just fine.

[knotty merlin]

This is going in circles constantly-

[worthy ivy]

there are too many keks here!

[toxic rampart]

YEP

[spare topaz]

except they annulled only that single line

[split tulip]

what

[spare topaz]

the contract itself still stood

[worthy ivy]

that's better

[wet storm]

Yes you're not gonna convince anyone

[misty hound]

Yeah but the single line of "You pay me 200k and I get my art back". Thats the whole point.

[toxic rampart]

I've been checking back every 30 minutes or so and seeing the exact people saying the exact things over and over again and it's honestly impressive.

[wet storm]

I am pro SKG and nobody has convinced me

I don't even know if I can retract the signature if someone did

[toxic rampart]

Got a whole work out in between the same exact talking points and every thing.

[spare topaz]

and once more i invite you to take it to court if you feel so strongly about it - send the Great IP Wall my regards

[wet storm]

And I don't think I'll convince anyone else to sign it either

Do what feels right and use dialogue to learn more

[worthy ivy]

schoolboy error 🙂

[split tulip]

nothing wrong with that. you agreed to it and it's not something like arbitration that would take away your rights to a hearing in court

[thick ledge]

Game adverts in 2025

[jolly sky]

And that varies per game. On Tf2 for example, when you host a server you are agreeing to a license which still means you cannot use the games code to your liking, You're only hosting it.

In World of Warcraft, The license specifically says that you are not allowed to host the game on a private server, due to you needing things that would breach Copyright and IP law.

[opaque raven]

At this point I just want you all to take a day off on this topic, just to chill

[thick ledge]

What am I looking at

I think we should all just take a day to hang out, outside of skg

[proud tundra]

Asmondgold just dropped a new vid there’s a bunch of big YouTuber s hopping on it

[split tulip]

you can have contract that says "I pay you 100$ and you give me nothing in return" that's how donations work

[thick ledge]

Get some real friendships going

[jolly sky]

I really wish that this was an awakening for people see how complex law and game design is, but instead its just turned into

"Just make it simpler"

[misty hound]

Then just dont add that clause?

[worthy ivy]

then why are we in SKG quarantine
sorry, I mean #streamchat 🙂

[dusk orbit]

same. i also support the initiative

[worthy ivy]

back to gen chat for some degen-gen-chat degeneracy!

[jolly sky]

What? No. You don't have the rights to their assets, code, server binaries.

[spare topaz]

Breaking news: the SKG evangelists all agree with the initiative. Up next: water might be wet

[proud tundra]

It has been a couple days just straight skg chat in here lol

[knotty merlin]

I feel this is relevant, and also someone before stated to push a lawsuit against a game to see what happens- https://www.ign.com/articles/ubisofts-the-crew-lawsuit-insists-we-do-not-own-the-games-we-buy

[flat moat]

"Make simple so I compute"

[fluid dome]

Might? 0/10 journalism.

[misty hound]

Yet I am allowed to run it?

[opaque raven]

I mean. From all the discussions you've seen for all the days this has been going...have you seen anyone slightly change their mind?

[worthy ivy]

or is it?
<v-sauce music>

[tight bramble]

Peeking in every so often while at work. I have real sense of foreboding about what's going to happen over the next few days.

[jolly sky]

But in WoW's Case, you are NOT allowed to run a private servers. In TF2's case, are allowed to run JUST the server. You are not allowed to own the Assets, code, etc.

[lunar moth]

That's fine, folks are discussing it because we are passionate about games.
There are stuff to be discussed about it though and that's ultimately where a lot of us are. Then you have folks like me who take issues with it both from a sociological stance on how it is warping the internet (again), and also the issues that are very real and should be discussed, but are largely just dismissed.

If you wanna support it then go for it!

In regards to your second thing though, the way someone would "retract" their signature would be to not validate it once you are required to send in proof that you are an EU citizen.

[misty hound]

In WoWs case I think this is bad if its after EOL. In TF2 case I am gucci with that.

[spare topaz]

not at all, because they haven't come here to be convinced - they have come here with the zeal of a convert to evangelise their message in the heart of their opposition. Its basic religion.

The reason we argue isn't for them - its for the silent lookers on who are on the fence. And trust me, ive had people message me privately after engaging in here, to ask more.

[split tulip]

why do none of these articles ever link to the actual lawsuit. it's annoying

[jolly sky]

So imagine that, but across a much larger amount of games. That's the problem that SKG underestimates entirely

[dusk orbit]

u mistake intention to convert for here for the lols

[spare topaz]

i made no mistake in my words.

[knotty merlin]

I have no idea, and I feel it's either A. Being post-poned and not going through or B. Still in the process of going through, and they have yet to reach a verdict.

Either way, annoying as hell, yes.

[candid shuttle]

True, I have mostly just been throwing in BEEG yoshi

[toxic rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/yoshi-spinning-turning-cute-fast-spin-gif-17732867

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/bigyoshi-big-yoshi-dancing-fat-yoshi-chungus-yoshi-gif-19032902

[lunar moth]

Because journalists' jobs are to report on this happening, not actually provide the means of verification. For that you are looking for a different type of journalism and it is usually stuff like the Associated Press or Trade Journals to get more explicit information. Otherwise... yeah they won't link stuff they don't have articles on themselves, sadly.

[misty hound]

All I want is an example of exactly that. What legally stops me from hosting a game server using a copy of binaries without owning the intellectual property besides the games license and a legal gray area.

[jolly sky]

World of Warcraft is one. Almost any Match Making game is another

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/nintendo-rgb-gif-22301231

[opaque raven]

I'm not at all against arguing, I just think this has been going for too long and clearly exhausting. I see a rotation of different people saying similar things that they clearly got from someone else (using stolen words and concepts that they barely understand)
meanwhile here we have some that need to develop their own arguments, debate and argue, and this is taxing when it's on an ongoing basis

[craggy pier]

we know what multiplayer games are

[misty hound]

But thats the whole point. Companies shouldn't stop me from being able to run my own server after a games EOL.

[misty hound]

The nintendo ninjas really do be out for people who wanna keep the Wii alive :v

[jolly sky]

If you running your own server means that you have access to the assets, code, server binaries then yes, yes they do and they have a right to protect their own work.

[dusk orbit]

this is generally most arguments and "debates" on the internet.

[opaque raven]

So I don't like the internet
There, I said it

[split tulip]

they could have the decency of providing a case number for what they cite at the very least

ubi the crew lawsuit: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/caedce/2:2024cv03058/455496

if I can do it, so can IGN

[kindred sedge]

gaytendo

[craggy pier]

Whether SKG initiative goes through or not wont stop Private servers from happening

[stone prairie]

The willingness of the owner to sue you into the ground is the only thing. They LEGALLY have the right to take their pound of flesh and then some if they're willing to go to court over it. And the person illegally running their protected code/IP/etc will have a hard time justifying it otherwise. It's why Nintendo has such a bloodthristy rep, and why some restorations like Homecoming for City of Heroes spent years working to get permission before going public in full.

[knotty merlin]

Something something customer service issue.

[spare topaz]

https://www.gov.uk/using-somebody-elses-intellectual-property this. this stops you.

[knotty merlin]

Oh! There's also that lawsuit against Bungie/Destiny 2

[lunar moth]

Justia is a Trade journal for legal information so... yeah.
I'm just saying from a journalists' perspective, doing this would drive traffic away from your site that's paying you so... journalists aren't going to do that really.

Especially since for news like these, Justia is a competitor to IGN.

[split tulip]

they don't have to link to justia. just provide a case number so it's clear what case they're disucussing and aren't making it up

[craggy pier]

If youre pro Consumer, you'd want WoW2 to be better than WoW 1 that died and is being run on private servers

[spare topaz]

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/running-business/intellectual-property/rights/index_en.htm the EU goes one step further - IP owners are the only person with the right to use or reproduce it

[jolly sky]

Well, here's the catch. If they're forced to give away the IP by law, then can no longer make WoW2, with any of the characters, names, models, music, environments from the first game

[velvet pawn]

mmo's retain their players from their competitors via sunk cost so i imagine wow2 ain't ever gonna happen.

[worthy ivy]

flip a coin? 🙂

[dusk orbit]

i would but i dont keep change.

[worthy ivy]

mainly the licenses and the legally grey area they imply?

[jolly sky]

SKG can say what it wants, it doesn't make it correct.

[worthy ivy]

cashless economy goes hard sometimes

[craggy pier]

so its arguing what ifs and strawman then

[dusk orbit]

very true

[jolly sky]

It's getting involved into an IP and copyright dispute whether it likes it or not. And it doesn't even seem to know what its getting into

[flat moat]

That'd mean something if they were more specific on the exact games they were touching rather than just saying "video games"

[distant rapids]

There's a reason why ip and copyright lawyers are the most tired lawyers you will ever meet

[jolly sky]

This isn't a "strawman", SKG is literally trying to hand wave away IP and Copyright law just because it says so.

[worthy ivy]

how is a potential problem(s) that game devs with knowledge about gamedev are highlighting a strawman?

I don't think you know what strawman means

[flat moat]

Pays well for them though lol

[opaque raven]

Feels like a case of "because I said so"

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/reading-sign-cant-stop-me-no-one-can-stop-me-gif-13921932
Literally SKG rn

[jolly sky]

"I don't understand Copyright and IP law, therefore it doesn't apply to me"

[worthy ivy]

devs against the initiative "ironmanned" the argument and saw that there were obvious implications that will cause major issues

[spare topaz]

explain it to us then: how do you keep games in a playable state without overriding the IP owner's rights? Weve had people in here arguing that they deserve to run servers that would fly directly into IP law

[worthy ivy]

the initiative was taken at face value, and then they logically extrapolated what would happen if it became a legal obligation - that's actually the opposite of a strawman, no?

[thick ledge]

This is how this channel feels https://youtube.com/shorts/EhD4FZX6xcg?si=uRK1fJdu1D-Y3d_K

[winter sierra]

Man made of straw

[distant rapids]

More dev time, api, and tool development for access to the game without- hopefully- getting reverse engineered over time. The main problem with that is that that is not practical for every multiplayer game.

[jolly sky]

There has been 5 days of people just wanting solutions to a problem. And when we state that their solutions won't work, they don't accept it and won't offer any solutions of their own.

They want all the answers, but don't want to accept them.

[worthy ivy]

this is why I run into issues of copyright and IP all the time as a DJ... I made the mistake of understanding it

[spare topaz]

more dev time - which would be called Regulatory Burden. Developers would by default have to give much more time to development, which would impact smaller developers far more than the bigger ones.

[worthy ivy]

I'm pretty sure some of the visualisers I use aren't licensed for commercial use...
but shhhh
I haven't been brave enough to checl

[distant rapids]

Yep. My main reason for suporting the idea of skg but not supporting it in its current format.

[jolly sky]

Might want to check if Milkdrop (Winamps Visauliser) has no commercial license.

[flat moat]

Not to mention this incentivizes publishers to make games more expensive for consumers as result of the total effort required of the developer teams

[past harbor]

I think it's pretty obvious whoever wrote the whole SKG FAQ and Petition doesn't actually have a clue how to make games.

[jolly sky]

And that is pretty much the stance of almost everyone here. We like the idea, but the methods harm far more than they help from its current wording.

[worthy ivy]

I use projectM (which is a fork IIRC?) but I'm not sure if all the presets are licensed - there's thousands of them

[distant rapids]

Oh god. They're just handing them an excuse to justify the price increases we already are facing on a silver platter...

[candid shuttle]

I think there are very few/no people here who don't support the IDEA of SKG. We all like games preservation and agree games should be preserved. (I think I might be over generalizing)

Last BEEG YOSHI, its sleep time.

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

[worthy ivy]

I use projectM (which is a fork IIRC?) but I'm not sure if all the presets are licensed - there's thousands of them

(discord refuses to believe I've hit the reply button sometimes what gives?)

[velvet pawn]

its a consumer driven movement ofc. the sad truth is that people that have no idea what they are talking about can and will effect your life if enough people who dont know agree.

[jolly sky]

I've got an individually running instance of Milkdrop that has thousands of community made visualisers

[distant rapids]

My god he jelly. Goopy yoshi boi (gn!)

[opaque raven]

Or laws
Or marketing
Or economics
Or politics and politicians
Or even, clearly, how ECI works

[jolly sky]

we're talking like 10's of thousands

[distant rapids]

Woops discord made me reply to wrong perso

[paper shuttle]

I have a little bit different take on that - I think the game preservation part of SKG is the bad one

[warm trench]

Do I own the game or do I have a license? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ris5lVssz8

[flat moat]

Hit the nail right on it's head

[worthy ivy]

you win top trumps - I'm not even on 10k

[jolly sky]

It doesn't want to preserve games, it wants to change how they are made. That is the worst angle that you could ever approach it from.

[misty hound]

Okay but all you are saying is "give the end user the license access the server binary (no code), assets (in whatever form that might be needed to run the server) to run servers without holding ownership over the intellectual property" and then we are all happy? If someone abuses that then I am fine with them getting sued.

[past harbor]

Honestly, I don't ever see this turning into a law. Once actual lawyers get ahold of it both sides of the coin will absolutely tear it apart and a million signatures on a petition is a drop in the bucket next to the lobbying publishers would do.

[worthy ivy]

few years back I was using mandelbulb3D to make animations, but got lazy on my more recent push

[jolly sky]

If SKG started off with wanting to make Log-in based Single Player only games allow for people to play the game after the Auth servers go down, that would have been a slam dunk. That would have been the actual "Easy Win" for Ross and all of us.

But SKG wants far more than that, and was not prepared for what it would take to work around it.

[worthy ivy]

and projectM slaps 🙂

[spare topaz]

thats the one with the biggest implications to it - to preserve means either continuing development to keep it updated to modern software and hardware (aka regulatory burden), or be forced to allow other means of playing the game to exist that they have no control over the development of (IP rights loss). There's no clear cut answer to this demand that doesn't involve a bad change to the system that the AAAs can easily absorb and the indies would sink under

[distant rapids]

Thats another thing. For some reason a lot of ppl cant read and they think that somehow the sigs will automatically put it into law. Thats... not how it works, for any country. They just will "consider" it

[paper shuttle]

I came to my own conclusions in that the SKG will actually kill games instead

[fickle bluff]

Going off of this rant, I now believe we all (pro-SKG peeps, Thor's goblins and everyone in between) are approaching the issue of game preservation from the wrong angle.

Enforcing restrictions on how games must be made is not the way. It creates a lot of potential issues (technical/IP/copyright/etc.) and puts a lot of extra pressure on devs before the game even hits production stage. Creating games is already extremely hard as it is, complicating it even further will benefit no one.

Also big companies will most definitely push back against such restrictions. And they have resources to either kill the initiative in it's crib or, at the very least, find/create legal loopholes to exploit later.

So, what I believe should be done is, instead of forcing restrictions on the development, we should push for creating incentives . So that devs/publisher get smth in return for putting effort into preserving their game. It can be smth like temporary tax benefits or some government funding for their next game. Smth tangible that'll make them invested into the whole game preservation idea. And once they're hooked - they'll figure logistics and copyright issues themselves. Work smarter, not harder, eh?

[past harbor]

What I'm genuinely surprised about is that nobody really picked up on the negative impact CVAA had on games the decade after and continue to think trying to regulate what is ultimately a creative industry will result in a better consumer experience.

[misty hound]

No thats straight up stupid. There will be obviously have to be conversations held and possibilites talked out. Saying that its gonna instantly fix everything is stupid. But I like to think its a step in the right direction.

[distant rapids]

Ive seen it too often. It bugs me.

[wet storm]

Holy shit

Ok dunno if anyone plays sc2 coop

[opaque raven]

The worst case scenario would be that this will end up hurting a lot the industry, even halting many game productions, but League of Legends would end up alive and well

[wet storm]

Rolled into coop, dead of night, dude insta quits

[spare topaz]

and are you prepared for the very real possibility that the Commission will respond to the movement with "there are sufficient consumer protections in place that satisfy the requirements of this initiative"? - because that is the only outcome if it passes 1 million where indie devs dont sink under regulatory burden

[wet storm]

No partner? No problem

[spare topaz]

cos that has already been stated as the UK government's stance in parliament a few months ago

[wet storm]

Just soloed it anyway

First time T_T

[jolly sky]

With hows its worded, I absolutely think that as well. Between all the increases in spending needed to comply with SKG;
Development Costs
Maintenance Costs
Networking Costs

and on and on and on, it will completely wipe out any Solo/Indie studios.

And then who's going to be the only ones left that can make certain games?

AAA Studios and the Publishers that fund them

[wet storm]

lol these stats

[distant rapids]

I would normally agree with you but the govs giving money for videogames for altruism's sake and no direct payback or economic boost later on? Government be unselfish Challenge: impossible

[thick ledge]

Proud of y

U*

[open gulch]

Jacksepticeye said the same thing, read a post about it this morning

[past harbor]

Indie games themselves don't suffer specifically. It's that the cost of entry for anything online is now much higher.

[wet storm]

It was a trip

[jolly sky]

I've already replied to this SKG, does not get hand wave away IP and Copyright law just because it says so.

[velvet pawn]

the only thing I can realistically see happening is online/login required single player games being required to allow their players to play the game. but that's not what skg is really about so. but that's like the one realistic thing I could see happening.

[craggy pier]

What if its just for singleplayer games

[misty hound]

I think this is something that can be worked around. Laws have been able to be applied selectively and since indie games usually do things right already this is kinda a moot point for me.

[idle falcon]

They're not trying to do that though

[thick ledge]

I think everyone on earth supports the death of online drm for single player games

Put it in the dumpster

[worthy ivy]

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably an op /j?

[blissful gale]

[past harbor]

So like, when we're done with SKG, do we also start "Stop killing my favorite TV shows" and "bring back ask jeeves"?

[gloomy forge]

I wrote this quite a few times, the best way to handle this is through compatibility wrappers and systems. like what WINE/Proton does. A game running under WINE could potentially run forever even on different hardware that exists decades in the future.

[spare topaz]

The proposal does not make that distinction, and the EU has a tendency of regulating by sector and/or product type

[jolly sky]

The methods that SKG wants to employ to make certain games still run while having no connection to the Devs or publishers, literally cannot avoid IP and Copyright law.

[paper shuttle]

There is also option that games will cost 2x as much globally or won't be available in EU to not have to touch whatever laws come out of SKG

[idle falcon]

Lets not try and make it go to every form of media

[worthy ivy]

plot twist - fast forward to 2026 and the headlines "AAA and AAAA studios caught in secret SKG lobbying scandal"

[wet storm]

Can you imagine if in the end Ross was the industry plant? /j

[worthy ivy]

just saiyan

[thick ledge]

Won't twitter have egg on its face

People saying thor is a plant

[past harbor]

I think I'm gonna start a petition with the EU about them killing my favorite 40k units.

[thick ledge]

Lmao

[gloomy forge]

Man you're really good at it. versus how many?

[idle falcon]

Do you understand IP Law?

[wet storm]

They'll probably say it was an op, both together

[worthy ivy]

I'm probably joking there, but the world has a taste for irony these days

[wet storm]

Oh it's coop

It's you and a dude vs AI

[worthy ivy]

wouldn't suprise me at all

[idle falcon]

Once again, taking something completely unrelated

[gloomy forge]

Maybe I misunderstood, but didn't your guy jumped off and you won solo?

[wet storm]

Yeah that's it

It was sweaty

[gloomy forge]

Still really good, well done I'd say.

[wet storm]

Tyty

[spare topaz]

this conversation's been had - scroll up and you will find it

[jolly sky]

Do you understand that people cannot be given individual access to certain games because doing so would also give them access to assets, server code, and game code?

All things that are protected by Copyright and IP law?

[past harbor]

I mean this is literally driven by people being angry that their favorite source of entertainment doesn't work anymore. It's all the same.

[craggy pier]

Its just proactive vs reactive law

[jolly sky]

God where is even a good place to link them

[dusk orbit]

that's the beauty of this. you get to have circular arguments 24/7 until people lose interest.

[misty hound]

I kinda think you overexaggerate how much work you would have to put in to implement stuff differently. But since none of us have like actual numbers and I kinda wanna go to bed since its like 1am I am gonna leave it at that. But please if you have any real life cases of this happening I would love to see it.

[gloomy forge]

Yeah and because the IP holder calls the shots because of already existing laws, there has to be an alternative. Retroactively changing past laws won't happen.

[jolly sky]

You underestimate and underexaggerate how expensive all of that already is.

[opaque raven]

I saw a few things from Ian Hamilton (top accessibility consultant) about it. There are quite a few grey areas regarding what is "advanced technology" and "reasonable effort" to cover for many cases. The conversation was pretty cool

[spare topaz]

type in google "intellectual property rights EU" and you will get plenty of resources that explicitly state that only the IP owner has a say on the use and reproduction of their IP

[past harbor]

I did think this was hilarious. The "vast majority"? He's referring to a group of games that also largely supported direct dial multiplayer. Even counter strike had WON

[jolly sky]

Oh I meant like, in here for them to scroll down from

[spare topaz]

oh, that's a good question - one for a mod ticket maybe?

[worthy ivy]

I read that as "you must architect your game this certain arbitrary way"

architecture isn't something you pick as the flavour of the month, you make a considered reasonable decision about how you will build your game architecture

you can't just go to the shop and say "one standard architecture please"

[jolly sky]

Even if its just from an hour ago or so. And if they refuse to let any of it sink in, than that is on them

[spare topaz]

we should compile the most coherent and concise responses to everything and make an "so you came here to argue about SKG" FAQ

[misty hound]

If you have a case of "The indie dev went bankrupt because he had to give out server binaries without giving up the intellectual property after the game reached EOL" I would love to see that man.

[gloomy forge]

Yes its exactly how trev says it, these laws came into ruling because because of germanys urheberrecht and the political movement for privacy and safety that people adhere to. Because protecting ones IP is considered a form of providing safety and stability or else everyone can just yoink stuff under specific circumstances.

[misty hound]

But its bed time now. Good night!

[gloomy forge]

have a nice sleep

[jolly sky]

Even better, I can give you one where it was forced through DDOS by external factors

[past harbor]

There's thousands of cases where people would have been sued into oblivion if they handed over their server architecture to a third party. Many of which are completely verifiable through code leaks.

[spare topaz]

not the point - you have no right to do anything with their IP without their explicit permission and license - thems the EU rules

[idle falcon]

Which this is aiming to change because of consumer rights to own what they are buying

[gloomy forge]

I feel the best compromise for EOL is simply to have a set of systgems ready, programmed to be quickly adjustable. That allows for setting up a server as well while respecting "the blackbox" that is hidden inside the code so noone cheats inside a MMO. The thing people did who worked on Just Cause 2 Online comes to mind but with higher scalability.

[jolly sky]

https://delistedgames.com/dread-hunger-leaves-steam-on-december-1st-shuts-down-january-1st-server-tools-handed-over-to-players/

[worthy ivy]

you don't need an example to understand that a certain event will be a likely outcome

there's this thing we do called logic: we take the inputs, and then - through thinking about how those inputs are connected - extrapolate the likely outcome of said inputs on a system

it's on the critical thinking skill tree if you're looking for it in the upgrade menu

[past harbor]

Just the very idea that most online game backend architectures dont' contain vast amounts of licensed code and libraries is a self report.

[distant rapids]

If what i saw was correct, they did do this- at least according the the steps taken part of their website. Could be misunderstanding things though

[spare topaz]

they explicitly state in their FAQ that they are NOT aiming to change IP rights however - that snippet is festooned all over this chat for you to find. So no, that is not what they are seeking to change. Hence our question of how people seek to achieve their goals

[opaque raven]

Hmmmmm maybe that's not a good idea
See if you agree with me
In here, the way I see, we are not a collective mind that agrees and repeat the same argument, as I said before the answer to many things will be different depending on who you ask. You, me, Dan, Myke, etc we all think on different angles and even reach different ending points, and honestly that's a powerful thing that makes this group good
A faq with general answers looks reasonable but whose answers does it represent? And might even backfire since it's static and we are all learning and improving while we argue

See my point?

[tulip thistle]

I happen to be a professional software developer with experience working on live service games in the past. I see the time of development costs for producing a reusable server binary as the ongoing narrative for the counter-argument to SKG — Is anyone aware of what the actual cost would be? Because I believe it should be trivial to implement this as long as the decision is made proactively at the beginning of the SDLC for a game. Releasing a server binary doesn't inherently entail releasing source code or proprietary information that could cause IP concerns. This feels more like an enforcement of better design practices going forward, similarly to what's expected under GDPR/CCPA regulations or even ADA for accessibility in some cases.

[wet storm]

I like this but I don't like that it's driven by apocalyptic conjectures

[fickle bluff]

If we act with such prejudice from the start, then there's no point in doing anything ever at all.

As I see it, the government will get extra karma point for preserving art, at the very least. And I'm sure politicians will find a way to squeeze some financial benefit in the process.

[spare topaz]

it was a somewhat tongue in cheek statement but i take your point entirely

[past harbor]

I'm immediately going to have to call into question the first thing you said if you think the only issue here is distributing a binary.

[worthy ivy]

initiative states "we don't want to change IP rights"
initiative proposes changes that will - in the real world - conflict with IP rights
someone please make it make sense 🙂

[jolly sky]

It will certainly require the servers binary code to be updated every single update the game has. Thats just one cost that wil continue over the entire lifetime of the game.

[distant rapids]

One thing confuses me- the website originally said they needed 100k sigs for the initial startup with the eu. But now it's suddenly 1 million. What happened to the 100k? Was that just to start the process? I am confusion

[past harbor]

You're conflating IP and copyright.

[opaque raven]

"Tongue in cheek"
Noted, new slang learned 📝

[idle falcon]

So whats already required to make the game run in multiplayer?

[tulip thistle]

I'm only going by what I'm reading here, so if there are other issues, I'd be happy to hear them.

[worthy ivy]

apocalyptic?

CONES is Confused... it hurt itself in it's confusion

probably just be me being an idiot, what do you mean apocalyptic?

[worthy ivy]

they are conflated by definition

[spare topaz]

and tell me, bold new adventurer into our midst - are you situated in either the UK or EU, and able to sign either of the current intitiatives being pushed? Or are you an external influence trying to interfere?

[past harbor]

Beyond the fact that most "live service" games consist of an entire network of different servers? The licenses for any technology that prevent you from redistributing that to outside parties.

[worthy ivy]

one isn't a subset of the other, it's more like a venn diagram

they overlap

[gloomy forge]

I never set up a private server seems to be quite a hassle with specific games I imagine. Especially if many people join. I remember the guy that runs nexus mods had to bay 500k USD a month so people could use the site.

[wet storm]

Whenever someone throws in a risque take

[worthy ivy]

in the latent space of ideas

[spare topaz]

my pleasure - enjoy the british slang

[tulip thistle]

What's there to interfere with? I'm only asking questions. This is my trade and I find this stuff interesting.

[thick ledge]

This was so sad, a group of disgruntled players ddosed them for months and destroyed them

[past harbor]

We were spending $2500+ per month to keep the main public SWGEMU and test server online and that was AFTER spending 2-3 years straight doing nothing but optimizations.

[wet storm]

Everything is doomed, this will kill live service games, it's the worst thing ever to happen to the industry, it'll amount to nothing, it'll make crimes easier to get away with, that sorta thing

[worthy ivy]

damn, "latent space of ideas" is an awesome name for a jazz band - someone take it and start a jazz revolution, quick!

[outer gust]

Don't be rude.

[spare topaz]

o7 ill relent, apologies

[distant rapids]

It is... terribly complicated. You basically need to know some reverse engineering to do it besides games that are extremely simple or ones that were specifically made for allowing private servers to be created.

[toxic rampart]

That's britbong? We say that here in the states as well plenty.
Maybe its more regional than I passively assumed.

[jolly sky]

No, because this is a separate one they'll have to make to make sure it runs entirely separately to make sure it runs on the individual users computer.

So that one will have to be constantly updated.
And tested every patch single patch.
And maintained.
And fixed for any bugs. That's already 4 different peoples jobs.

[idle falcon]

Yeah, that is their jobs

That they are being paid to do

[plucky quail]

this would effect the entire global gaming market

[wet storm]

Agreed

[frozen nimbus]

Wait so a concern with the initiative is that people could just DDOS the game into shutting down, and then force the devs to give out control for servers because they can no longer maintain them?

[wet storm]

I might steal this on this paper I'm writing

[frozen nimbus]

Sorry if I messed anything up

[wet storm]

The counterpart of the marketplace of ideas

[gloomy forge]

But yeah it makes sense, a games backend server architecture has to run on a set of systems designed with the game client in mind. Its not just green matrix numbers on the server screen I don't think you can "steamline" the process. One solution fits all is impossible with that.

[thick ledge]

6e

Ye

[past harbor]

The reverse engineering part is actually pretty easy in comparison to the amount of actual work that goes into essentially recreating the game from scratch with what's usually an incredibly small volunteer team.

[worthy ivy]

I said none of those things! (but full disclosure I do think they're probably all going to happen...)

I have no faith in EU lawmakers, nor in the UK politicians that will slavishly pass a similar bill just to be "keeping up with the neighbours" - it's going to be interesting certainly

[wet storm]

No no I mean in general what's being said and such

Not you