streamchat

[turbid lantern]

sounds good to me! lots of games have done it in the past

[wet storm]

cos it's videogame youtubers amirite who cares

[jolly sky]

By choice

Making it a law requiring it absurd

[worthy ivy]

you have a game - servers up and go, you own, you profit
someone DDOSs you, your company folds because players quit because of the DDOS and then the people that DDOS'd you now get to play your game for free and you make no profit from the game you made
how is it not just obvious that's what some people will do?

did none of you play EVE?

[wet storm]

Are there real life examples of games that were shut down to DDoS?

I am curious

[wispy plover]

I've never seen the words "departure-banana" and "hate-shaped pillow" before. This feels like forbidden knowledge and I feel like I have grown stronger.

[turbid lantern]

we will see!

[jolly sky]

Because it has literally already happened without SKG even existing.

But what SKG wants would make it so the developers would then be forced to hand over the IP and copyright to their game, so that it can be playable

[split tulip]

I can totally see that. channels I've left behind weren't because of recent events, more so that they were a constant stream of negativity and just something I wasn't enjoying anymore

[worthy ivy]

new initiative - everyone should have to play EVE for at least 6 months to learn to not be so naive

[wet storm]

Could you provide examples?

I asked Cones but I am very curious like a cat

That's why my friends call me Whiskers

[jolly sky]

https://delistedgames.com/dread-hunger-leaves-steam-on-december-1st-shuts-down-january-1st-server-tools-handed-over-to-players/

Yes

[wet storm]

Thank you!

[worthy ivy]

there's some earlier in chat but might have been yesterday so a bit of a scroll

[split tulip]

it's the forbidden fruit

[worthy ivy]

myke might know which if about?

[jolly sky]

Imagine this scenario.

You're drawing a piece of art.

I come over and rip your paper and break your pencils, and now say that under law, you cannot draw with those pencils, or make that same drawing again.

[vivid maple]

so with skg would they have to hand all the assets over to customers

[turbid lantern]

is this you joking again

[jolly sky]

No. This is a metaphor

[worthy ivy]

yarp - including proprietary third party code they don't have a license to distribute

[wispy plover]

The forbidden banana

[worthy ivy]

and potentially leased assets and tools and that

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-bob-minions-the-rise-of-gru-amazed-woah-gif-26763641

[wispy plover]

No it went too far!

[vivid maple]

so that 3rd party license would end up getting them sued?

[wispy plover]

Damn my hubris!

[wet storm]

Analogy* fwiw

[jolly sky]

Lmao yes thank you

[worthy ivy]

it's not like every dev company makes their own tools - they do sometimes, but it's rare to have absolutely no third party code in a complex program or game

[wet storm]

Metaphor is like saying "this guys is pretty smart, walking wikipedia"

[turbid lantern]

is this supposed to mean something

[worthy ivy]

is why games have "Autodesk" plastered all over them on the splash screens

[split tulip]

this is a metaphor: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2679460/Metaphor_ReFantazio/

Steam

Metaphor: ReFantazio

From the creative minds behind Persona 3, 4, and 5 comes Metaphor: ReFantazio.

Brace yourself for the next evolution of fantasy JRPG with Metaphor: ReFantazio, available now. Winner of 50+ awards, with a free demo that carries save-data to the full game. Enter the royal tournament to fight for the throne and for the future. Control your…

Price

$41.99

Recommendations

20109

Metacritic

92

▶ Play video

[wet storm]

Nah nah they have a point

I have a take on that but it's cruel and selfish

[turbid lantern]

i am not in the mood for stories

[wet storm]

i.e.: tough luck

[worthy ivy]

and "havok" to think of it

[wet storm]

Better luck next time

[worthy ivy]

a few othersx

[wet storm]

I still want the game I paid for

[vivid maple]

like games done in unreal engine need to still have the persmission from epic games to continue to exist if a game gets delisted

[jolly sky]

Yes. This is what is happening when you force a DDOS a games server and force a developer to hand over their game because it is no longer playable because of SKG.

[vivid maple]

omg they are dumber than shit

[wet storm]

Could we not

do that

Apply empathy and imagine people take screenshots of this chat and call people here dumb

[turbid lantern]

and that matters to the consumer because...............

[wet storm]

Would'nt feel very wholesome would it

[turbid lantern]

action dan i came here asking to learn, and i have learned one thing. i will be signing the thingy

[jolly sky]

Because you are taking the right of something the developer made away from them. Like again, if I said that you could not draw your drawing anymore.

[wet storm]

Don't make up your mind off the smugness of one member

But do sign it only because I said so

[jovial sandal]

if companies can't make money off of their products, they won't make those products. Congrats, SKG just killed games

[vivid maple]

im betting on it taking a month after parliament gets it to see them throw it out

[turbid lantern]

action dan does not care about people, but companies? why is that

[jolly sky]

Yes, giving all of these examples and taking the time to explain things is "smug"

[turbid lantern]

wait, you had examples?

[wet storm]

You talk in a very hostile, not very understanding way

[toxic rampart]

Okay this is either a troll or genuinely upsetting

[wet storm]

From a position of truth rather than a position of dialogue

[jolly sky]

Sure, sure.

[vivid maple]

and im being called a corpo dick sucker cause of my opinion

[turbid lantern]

stories arnt examples

[cunning axle]

Dude have a Snickers and return when you've cleared your head

[wet storm]

The marketplace of ideas die if you join conversation after inexorably making up your mind

[jolly sky]

https://delistedgames.com/dread-hunger-leaves-steam-on-december-1st-shuts-down-january-1st-server-tools-handed-over-to-players/

[turbid lantern]

ip grab

[wet storm]

Nah it's not, it's very sad, Dread Hunger was a cool concept

[jolly prism]

Companies (especially small indies) are made out of people.

[jolly sky]

https://gamerant.com/dread-hunger-steam-servers-shut-down/

[wet storm]

It sorta is, but not in a highway robbery way

[split tulip]

you would need the assets too, otherwise you'd be playing in an empty map

[jolly sky]

And that network stuff is their own code and assets, which is also IP and Copyright

You can't have one without the other

[wet storm]

Sure, so in the case of a live service game, at the very least, the company has to hand over some form of functional executable that spins up a server, through a VM or natively on Linux (assuming here, it's the most used one) and a way for the game to run

[jolly sky]

At least not in a lot of games

[turbid lantern]

people can host tf2 servers, but valve still owns tf2

what is your point

[wet storm]

That's handing over your assets, in a way

[jolly sky]

Different type of game. There are thousands of different types of games that do not work the same way.

[turbid lantern]

really?

[tight bramble]

I say we let it all die. Start over from the beginning. One dot on a screen jumping up and down.

[wet storm]

Ah yes the roaring 50s

[prime crest]

they made the game with that in mind, and it is possible for everyone, it is just extra work that might not be reasonable to expect from people

[split tulip]

only Pong remains

[frozen sonnet]

The return of Pong overlords

[prime crest]

at the very least that will make games more expensive and i doubt you want that either

[jolly sky]

Pong at 240hz would be sick

[trail swan]

I see discussion of the SKG stuff seems to have left the community pretty divided....

[wet storm]

I wouldn't say it does, but it adds an overhead where a studio has to prepare for it, and that preparation costs money

[turbid lantern]

notice how action dan is too scared to reply to me

[frozen sonnet]

Honestly just kill the games so i can be productive with my life again

[jovial sandal]

player-hosted servers are not possible in all cases, no matter how much SKG-supporters may say otherwise

[prime crest]

The community can be divived on opinions as long as they respect each other

[jolly sky]

???

[wet storm]

Historically what normally happens is someone makes a FOSS solution for either packaging that kinda shit or making distribution easier

[toxic rampart]

This is all also not mentioning OS stuff over time.
Who maintains the updates for compatibility?

[blissful imp]

Oh my... PewDiePie http://youtube.com/post/UgkxDOfgv1AypYAVpigFHR3BpegSZ8PkOYC0?si=eIpV99V0TqBmm6V5

[trail swan]

That's the best way to hash things out, tbh

[wet storm]

I personally don't care about the developer, my relationship with them is strictly transactional. Unless the game is free I suppose

If it makes live service games less prolific, that's skill issue

[jovial sandal]

And when those developers stop making games, because they can't afford to continue?

[jolly sky]

Well, then expect those transactions to go up if all that extra work is legally mandated

'cause it's going to be paid for somehow

And publisher sure wont tank those costs

[jovial sandal]

killing games in the crib isnt any better than doing so on their deathbed

[wet storm]

I don't hold people's opinions against them on things like how videogames are made because that's insanely anti-social

[tribal canyon]

he's supporting SKG, not a Pirate hit piece, diffrent things

[wet storm]

So long as people are not like trolling

[split tulip]

my best faith interpretation would be that the developer would hand over the files at end of life and that would be it. no more support. then it's up others to pick up the pieces

[earnest mirage]

but make it modern, with NFTs and microtransactions, like you have 3 lives which regenerate slowly over time or you can buy more for money, and don't forget skins (aka different colors for the dot).

[lunar moth]

Not really.
Folks are able to have polite discussions, explaining their perspectives, and so on. There's an incredibly small amount of people who are part of the community that is actually "divided" in any sense of it.

Folks disagreeing politely whilst discussing things isn't a division, it is a conversation. There are things that would be doable but a lot of people here, myself included, have criticised SKG because they don't seem to want anything but a hardline "apply a new law to all games making some games illegal."

Which... isn't good.

[wet storm]

Oh yeah another youtuber for people to mindlessly hate

[toxic rampart]

BEST case. Sure.

[wet storm]

We're on what, four now?

Of the big ones

[wet storm]

This already happens

[trail swan]

That's a massive endorsement wow

[wet storm]

when IPs are sold

[jolly sky]

Except that is what the wording is in SKG, and Ross refuses to change it.

[prime crest]

Everyone relevant enough have some people that hate them. It's unfortunate

[split tulip]

if the company chooses yes. my intepretation is thjat SKG would enforce it

[jovial sandal]

you are incorrect in that. Huge swathes of the game industry moved on from easily replicated server architectures because they needed to in order to make the game they wanted. They would need to maintain two code bases, one with that architecture, and one that vaguely functions like it to appease the requirements

[lunar moth]

It is, sadly.

[wet storm]

Yes, to either package it somehow, or sell it, rather than looking at the playerbase that paid for the game and going "lmao so sorry guys we tried our best 😢 "

[jolly sky]

It's fundamentally ignoring the conversation of IP and Copyright. Which is a conversation it will absolutely have to have.

And giving certain games over to the public means also giving them the IP and Copyright to the game, which means the game is no longer theres. It is an avoidable discussion that the Initiative just "hand-waves" away

[wet storm]

What's crazy is going "Wow this youtuber disagrees with my favourite youtuber what a scumbag"

When like

It's one take

[split tulip]

they could already sell if they chose. nothing would change there. only the part where they don't find a buyer

[cursive solar]

the initiative doesnt require devs to release server binaries, ive seen that alot but thats not a requirement, devs will be left to do whatever they need or want to do

[wet storm]

Then package some form of executable and release it to idk the internet archive

[jolly sky]

And yet, what SKG wants requires handing over the server binaries for certain games.

[trail swan]

There are a lot of examples of older games that have been handed over to their dedicated communities. Sometimes the code base is open sourced. It would be nice to have laws about that, in my opinion.

[wet storm]

I'm not fond of the term server binaries

Don't binaries mean the source code?

[cursive solar]

where on the page does it state exactly server binaries will be required to be released, not pulling your leg or anything, just actually asking

[jolly sky]

Becuase they were made with server hosting in mind.

[cursive solar]

cause i can show you where ross has stated that they wont be

[split tulip]

yeah, that's what my comment was

[wet storm]

Oh my, I was wrong, server binaries is just the executable

I gotta change my name

[jovial sandal]

I am talking about new games. They still would want to use the more modern architecture, because it allows for things that can't be easily replicated through offline or self-hosted systems

[cursive solar]

not on the page but i can still show

[lunar moth]

It is retroactively by necessity for what it is arguing for. Hell, it states on the website that games that don't comport to it would have to be "shut down or grandfathered in."

Which means that any current game with any kind of online functionality can no longer be updated, or maintained as it is.

[frozen nimbus]

SKG is now at 74%

I checked like 2 days ago and it was at 68%

[jolly sky]

Through a logical conclusion of wanting the game to be handed over the the public.

For some games, you can't hand over the game over to the public without also giving away server binaries, and have the company keep the IP and copyright to the game.

Those two things do not fundamentally exist

[wet storm]

What is the alternative solution for handing out server binaries for a live service game that went caput?

[turbid lantern]

me when i dont read dragonrage's messages proving me wrong

[cursive solar]

then in those cases, those games cant be released in "reasonably playable state"

[split tulip]

I don't see any. you'd need those to to run it

[jolly prism]

"grandfathered in" literally means that the new rule will not apply to them

[wet storm]

With my newfound knowledge I can say that source code and server binaries are different things

I thought they were the same but nope

[jolly sky]

But they are in a perfectly playable state when the game is released.

[cursive solar]

i cant speak on the tech side because im just an artist but i see minecraft has things like realms or you can still run a server even without realms still

[serene valley]

you've said nothing the last 10 minutes

[prime crest]

It really depends on what SKG means by leaving a game in a functional state. Cause at some point you might need drivers that are not available, hardware that does not exist, emulator for a device that has been discontinued, rights to materials that are so old that copyright laws have been reinvented in 15 different ways etc...

If you are a consumer you could argue that if you need to put any effort into making a game run besides clicking an executable and that is definitely something the developer can't under any circumstance guarantee. This is why most of the TOS of those games are the way they are.

Although blizzard could definitely rewrite their TOS so that they can only terminate accounts for a reason lol.

[wet storm]

Think broader, say, an MMO

[cursive solar]

but we are talking about after the life cycle of the game, we both know that

[split tulip]

yeah, because it's architected that way. not all games are

[idle hill]

"What is a functional playable state" is a very difficult question
there's a lot of answers to it but I believe the most you would need would be removing the account requirement to launch the game after EOL
You cant connect to servers if there aren't any
but the player can mod the game so they can connect to player hosted servers

[wet storm]

Imagine tomorrow Albion dies and nobody wants to buy it, how to keep it alive?

[trail swan]

The amount of creators making videos on this subject is pretty staggering.

[cursive solar]

oh yea that one is more complicated, i couldnt tell you myself you would definitely have to ask someone with networking or programming knowledge

[wet storm]

Indeed, I thought binaries meant source code and executable was the correct term

[frozen nimbus]

The last ditch effort for the drama farming is working

Annoyingly

[wet storm]

So the standing argument is server binaries

[lunar moth]

Correct. Only problem is that how laws work means that games that currently exist require updates. When an update occurs, legally speaking it is now a "new" product that would be required to comport to new laws.

To make an exception to exclude the updating functionalities would create the biggest legal loophole likely in legal history.

That's never going to happen without also making any law change functionally meaningless.

[prime crest]

I had a person argue with me about how they should be able to play an MMO solo. Good luck with that i guess lol.

[serene valley]

binaries also includes libraries

[vivid maple]

yeah the drama is really annoying at times

[jolly sky]

Yes, which means at the end of the life cycle, you are handing over the copyright and ip of your game to the individual. You are essentially saying to someone

"Oh is that your art? By law you are required to give it to me, and now it is my art, and I made this"

[serene valley]

executable generally just refers to the file you actually run

[cursive solar]

thats why down the line, games could be architected down the line, again i dont want to throw devs into the deep end so im all for giving devs time to adjust to such a big change if they decide to make a new mmo (not ones currently in development)

[frozen sonnet]

It is sadly and jacksepticeye's video coming out and bashing thor today as well drove up it more

[frozen nimbus]

Jack made a video as well?

[wet storm]

If the code is compiled aren't the libraries already part of the compiled code?

[exotic forge]

Software doesn't work like that. Especially in today's age where there are much more complicated architecture with services, libraries and licenses that depend on one another to work.

This isn't a sudoku game you made in 1 python script.

[cursive solar]

thats not how that works

[jolly sky]

What did you even prove me wrong about? You have spoken for about 25 minutes

[cursive solar]

and it would also depend on the company

[serene valley]

well... the trouble is kinda that library can refer to both source code but also to the compiled binaries

[frozen sonnet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_5WIzkM0r8

[wet storm]

Or is the concern licensing?

[jolly sky]

Infact, that actually IS how it works.

[toxic rampart]

Oh man speaking on that note of copyright holders etc, CDPRs INSANE work to get an old game going and the amount of sweat and legal stuff they jump through is crazy for GOG.
Even requiring they themselves rebuild stuff for the title with dev work as a third party.

[blissful imp]

you know what's funny about this. Anthem is still playable even tho it was a Live Service Looter Shooter.

But yes the servers are still up and the game is on Game pass so its technically free to play. So if you wanted to you could play Anthem. idk if i recommend that tho.

[tropic wraith]

yeah I'm curious how Thor is going to take this one, as he's said on stream before how much he respects and owes to jacksepticeye in the past.

[cursive solar]

so games that have previously managed to do this, would you say they got hurt

[wet storm]

That doesn't make sense to me. I'll have to look this up

[frozen sonnet]

And Jack just bashed him in the first 2 minutes

[misty hound]

What is this thumbnail lmao

[toxic rampart]

Slop

[split tulip]

blizzard could hand you their server binaries, but I doubt you'd be able to run them. it's not a single server, it's multiple that have to work together perfectly. they have whole teams running that. they also run them on specialized hardware like this:

[exotic forge]

The current software architecture can be varied greatly. Those binaries could be calling an outside service. Parts of those binaries could be depedent on libraries which have license restriction

[cursive solar]

again, all the initiative is asking is to leave games in a reasonable playable state, if a game cant be playable cause it isnt possible, then thats fine

[misty hound]

I agree with the general sentiment SKG has but the hate is actually unreal. I also feel sorry for thor receiving death threats n shit.

[cunning axle]

They're all like that, but it announces they're arguing in bad-faith right up front that way

[wet storm]

Oh that's the developer's problem

[misty hound]

You literally just make it worse for everyone involved

[jolly sky]

Those games were written in completely different ways, and used completely different methods of accessing servers compared a lot of other games on the markets

[wet storm]

idc about that

[tropic wraith]

I mean, we can agree Thor didn't have the best approach to dismissing SKG, and did miss some of the main points of it, the grounds for miss-information isn't unreasonable.

[split tulip]

privates servers do exists. but these are made from reverse engineering and are not provided by Blizzard. there is a lot of effort to make these even semi-playable

[exotic forge]

Again, not every game is the same size and scope.

[prime crest]

I wouldn't blame him for just repeating a sentence someone told him to say. I don't expect everyone to be correct with every single statement they make ever. Don't worry, he does not spend most of the video butchering Thor like most of the creators did.

[blissful imp]

i'm trying to wonder why Star wars Battlefront 2 on in the thumbnail. its like Act man is trying to say Thor is trying to kill SWBF2

[modern vigil]

god all these people just jumping on thor now, its been ten months get over it

[flat moat]

source code is a listing of commands to be compiled or assembled into an executable computer program.

A server binary is the executable code of a server application.

The latter is the end product of the former

[stone prairie]

I feel like I'm missing something here... Source code would be 'human readable code' ja? IE I write out the game Maze on Demand! in.. Java, publish it with an exe that players buy which runs a client side interface to my server. That client is also written in source code, but the exe the player gets is a binary, because I compile my source code in binary executables to run since machines don't use human readable code, they use binary code... If I give the players both the server side and client executable, what exactly prevents them just decompiling both into the source code?

[exotic forge]

That's not how it works

[serene valley]

basically... when you are making a program you can include a library where for example in C you include the headers and link against the compiled library file (.so/.a/.lib/dll file usually)

the compiled file is a binary file that contains executable code, but isn't on its own executable, it needs to have a program (.exe on windows) that calls to code in that binary

[candid shuttle]

ofc it failed. Asking any and all devs to share their code base for free at EOL even when they may be making a sequel or even HAVE a sequel is asanine. That way you just wait till EOL why even buy a game??

[wet storm]

Btw I'm not saying this is imoral to disagree with. If you're lazy or old and don't want to learn new ways of doing things because a law passed that gives your clients the right to what they paid for it's totally fair to disagree with the initiative

[serene valley]

more or less

[misty hound]

I geniunely think most stuff can be fixed but just having more than one database solution tbh. I would love to have someone show an actual example of "They this is literally impossible"

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/ogvhs-get-it-come-get-it-come-on-gif-18199469
ofc it failed. Asking any and all devs to share their code base for free at EOL even when they may be making a sequel or even HAVE a sequel is asanine. That way you just wait till EOL why even buy a game??

[cursive solar]

exactly, so saying its no possible is not an out, saying its hard, i would completely understand, and also i really dont want people to gloss over the fact that if a game cant be left playable because it literally isnt possible, then most people would accept that, and again im saying most people, of course there will be trolls but those are hella few compared to the majority

[misty hound]

Nobody is asking this

You are literally strawmanning so hard rn

[cursive solar]

if a game cant be left playable cause it aint possible then thats fine

[wet storm]

What's the issue of using such libraries?

[split tulip]

you can't reverse the process. you can approximate what source code lead to what machine code. comments and the like are gone forever

[wet storm]

I mean releasing them as part of the binaries

[lunar moth]

My god... I like Jack, he's awesome, but man I wish folks with no background or interest in politics would stop doing political commentary...

-.-

[exotic forge]

Sure let me call Todd Howard and have him send me the design document of Elder Scrolls 6

[cursive solar]

the initiative wants games to be left in a reasonably playable state

[serene valley]

they got licenses

[wet storm]

Most reasonable take goddamn

[serene valley]

might not be allowed to reshare the compiled binaries

[wet storm]

Kudos

[earnest mirage]

"reversed engineered" aka someone at blizzard stole, i mean took, a wip snippet and they get it running somehow. Somehow = run with problems like crashes and bad performance.

[jolly sky]

If you're asking for it to be changed then you are asking game development to go backwards in time. When the technology and the way games are made nowadays will not run through those methods.

You are wiping out an entire genre of games by doing that.

[split tulip]

can't all companies just say "it's not possible" then? would someone be checking it?

[misty hound]

@candid shuttle

[cursive solar]

no man, for me id accept new mmos releasing in the future, not ones already in development

[misty hound]

???

[wet storm]

Is it impossible or impractical to use libraries with a possibility to re-share, or to use potential FOSS made specifically for post SKG server development?

[exotic forge]

It depends on the game, the libraries that they use and the licenses associated with the use of said libraries

[lime pewter]

bro...how dare someone talk about someone that effects them bro that's so political bro i cant how dare u talk about politics bro thats so uncool you dont even have a phd in political science u cant talk about politics.

[cursive solar]

cause it would be a hard thing to adjust to

[serene valley]

I've seen reverse engineered servers for games, but those were based on guesswork at architecture, and the client code could be decompiled rather easily since it was C# unity, unobfuscated or il2cppd

[maiden talon]

personally, I think anyone thats going "Thats not my problem" or "thats the developers issue" ONLY cares about the game being playable, and none of the legal stuff that goes on behind the scenes, they also never seem to have any legitimate answer to how the games would even be able to run.

yeah, im coming in here parotting the same thing ive said before, but theres new people here, so its nice to get new perspectives on very real, very legitimate logistical hurdles people are saying "are up to the developer"

[jolly sky]

Yes, and you're literally not allowing a game to be developed in a certain way. Which means that genre dies.

[serene valley]

so it's not impossible

[cursive solar]

people on the internet are stupid, but devs would pick up on it and start speaking out about it

[candid shuttle]

It is the natural conclusion when you think of the implementation of such an idea. I have yet to see someone bring forth something that not this. Also, yes I also love games and yes, media/art being lost is something that should not happen and that we should stop.

[serene valley]

well then you're possibly looking at subpar performance because of EOL support

[exotic forge]

Like I said, some games will pass whatever requirements this initiative will enforce easily, some games will require significant more work, some games will need to restructure the entire architecture, some games will be impossible to make as they currently stand

[fickle bluff]

And who's gonna decide if it's possible or not? 'Cause devs, specifically AAA companies, will just declare technical impossibility of preservation and so the initiative is dead in the water.

[jolly sky]

And SKG does not distinguish between any of them

[serene valley]

since the company couldn't use the best available product

[maiden talon]

when a game is at EOL why spend the money restructruring the whole game? its stupid and useless

[wet storm]

That to me sounds like developer skill issue

[earnest mirage]

i mean in case for the wow servers. those "reversed engineered" things exist since classic and it's always the same.

[wet storm]

Is that supbar performance permanent and impossible to solve?

[serene valley]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stone prairie]

Most signs point to yes, seeing backwards compitability issues for like FF14 with the PS3, 4, and 5.

[wet storm]

Sorry if I'm treating you like a parent having to answer a million questions but you seem knowledgeable and I only ever made tiny server that weren't for gaming

[misty hound]

Maybe? I mean there is lots of ways to make games playable after release. They could release a design document for the network architecture so players can write their own servers. They could release binaries which players can then patch. Thats how the first Minecraft Servers were made.

[exotic forge]

I mean even if it is possible, if it requires a huge financial burden then it's basically killing the game for all intents and purposes. So the SKG initiative as it currently stands due to it's vagueness may in fact be killing some games.

[cursive solar]

i feel like im talking to a wall, look whatever game you believe cant be made to survive after EOL/servers go offline, then those games are fine, the initiative is stating that if its possible to leave a game in a playable state, then try to do it (paraphrasing because we both know ive been here talking almost everyday )

[misty hound]

I think all of this boils down to "allow the to put an IP somewhere so I can use a different server"

[wet storm]

The initiative isn't retroactive

[misty hound]

What do you mean?

[split tulip]

it's kinda like saying "all cars must only be rear wheel drive". you're now limited to that. wanted four wheel drive? not allowed

[exotic forge]

Killing new games

Killing innovation which is what Thor argued and has always argued

[misty hound]

This is not even true. Making games is a design process, especially when you plan on asking for money for it.

[candid shuttle]

Yeah and unlimited immigration was not supposed to steal jobs or distablize countries or make it harder for native the population to get homes but here we are. These EOL plans eventually boil down to software being made available at no cost.

Now if there was say a sort of foundation that games go to at EOL and any profit of the game still goes to the devs then I am 1000% on board, but thats not this movement in its current form.

[gloomy forge]

Thats why grassroots movements are so important, because they can garner connections and request meeting with big publishers to show "hey guys, this is good actually, heres why." it happened quite a few times. The gaming company Digital Eclipse stem from such a movement, a company which does a new genre of museum games where the game is like a documentary that you can also play. Like a game package with many games, or versions of games inside including interviews with the devs both from back in the day and from today.

[wet storm]

Sounds like little faith on people's sheer determinaton to realize a packaging solution

[exotic forge]

You completely missed the point....

[serene valley]

well I don't know everything either, just mostly stuff about how software could be stuck together with dependencies, tho what I've only ever used was open source/ source available, but then you still had to keep the licenses in mind

[maiden talon]

if I was to make a game, and I had all the rights to the game, and people loved the game, and I decide I want to make a different game, and focus on that, why should I, as the game developer, either, hand you ALL the files for the game (which I would still own, so good luck changing anything) and why would I hand out all the server stuff, that would be an extra cost TO YOU, not to me?

[jolly sky]

"whatever game you believe cant be made to survive after EOL/servers go offline, then those games are fine,"

No, it wants those games to still be playable by the individual. It wants to legally enforce this.

[wet storm]

Which is, in fact, creating innovation

[maiden talon]

please, can someone whos Pro SKG, please answer that.

[cursive solar]

most of the innovation if not all that ive seen have been single player offline games, im actually curious which ones you know, not being cheeky, actually curious

[verbal elbow]

Love me some Thor but "OMG Guys we're like killing future IPs like concord!!!!! Oh no Scoob, don't prevent 10 clones of dead by daylight with cosmetic transactions who shut their servers down after 1 years STOP!!!"

[tropic wraith]

why annoyingly?
what do you find wrong with the initiative?

[cursive solar]

no it doesnt

[brittle jacinth]

CAT

[cursive solar]

thats all i need to say

[stone prairie]

The one thing the initiative won't do is kill new games. It might kill some creativity and innovation, but its far more likely to just cause: Higher Prices or Removal of an entire Market Share for some games. And before people say 'Noone would ever stop selling to the european market!' let's review Sony this last year with purchase restrictions as they chewed through legal changes in the EU along with trying to drive up PSN accounts.

[cursive solar]

cause it isnt true

[candid shuttle]

Releasing a binary is jsut releasing code with extra steps.

[misty hound]

Holy if this is the type of conversation we are going to have I don't wanna talk anymore. You are going from preserving video games to the most racist argumentsI have seen in my life

[jolly sky]

Then you're ignoring what the Initiative wants from its own wording.

[verbal elbow]

"Guys we need more IP clones that charge you for cosmetics and shut their servers down after 1 year STOP!"

[sleek seal]

how would this even work?

[dusty heath]

what was racist about it?

[candid shuttle]

A SMALL 3 person studio does NOT have the budget for setting up an entire EOL pipeline

[split tulip]

no. binaries are shipped around all time. source code is the secret sauce

[verbal elbow]

We need more concords STOPP GYUS !!!

[exotic forge]

Sure it won't kill all new games. It'll just kill innovation of some games, it'll raise the prices of other games. It'll make game development way more restrictive.

[verbal elbow]

Can't we all just consume product and get excited for next product?!?!

[cursive solar]

if an mmo cant be left in a reasonably playable state, like if its impossible, then those games would be excluded, are you saying its possible then? (and no thats not what the initiative states, it states to leave games in a reasonably playable state)

[verbal elbow]

Don't sign anything just rot in your basement AS USUAL

[misty hound]

Then elaborate to me how asking people to have EOL plans for a paid game is literally impossible to implement and kills games?

[verbal elbow]

WoW update soon guys!

[brittle jacinth]

The biggest thing that would happen is that some games would turn into a subscription based purchase like WOW

[verbal elbow]

Don't play free servers

[wet storm]

The way I think of it, because I don't have that much knowledge besides webdev, is stuff like React, Laravel, Node, DBMSs and stuff like that.

Libraries, runtimes, framewors and other technologies that were created to fit a niche and are FOSS, and usable for comercial products without a license

[stone prairie]

A 3 person studio is more likely designing a p2p multiplayer like Rabbit and Steel, or single player game like Stardew Valley and neither of these types of games need to even bother worrying about the initiative.

[exotic forge]

I've already elaborated my points above. Kindly read it and respond to them. I'm not your tutor.

[verbal elbow]

Companies like Blizzard and the gemlins behind Star Citizen don't have enough of 365 vacation days a year and 10th generational wealth

tPLEASE GUYS STOP SINGING

[wet storm]

It's poor faith to think that a law mussing up the hair of one of the world's largest industries and that industry generating a solution is not plausible whereas a criminal DDoSing a studio to get their binaries is

[brittle jacinth]

most mmo cannot be not excluded most of them have some activities or raid that are made to have 10+ players

[jolly sky]

" it states to leave games in a reasonably playable state"

You just proved my point that that is what the Initiative wants. How can a game be in a playable state, when it is not left in a playable state?

[serene valley]

pretty sure most of those need a license, or your use of the language/framework just comes with an implicit license

[turbid lantern]

OOPS

[wispy plover]

It wont kill new games as in they will come out and they will die. It will kill them in their infancy. Because devs arent gonna want to deal with that crap. That's still killing games.

[exotic forge]

I don't think criminals DDOSing a studio to gain access of licensed binaries is an argument people made...or at least I didn't make that.

[tropic wraith]

Why would it kill innovation? I would say it'd probably help some game development studios get their tracks straight.

Lots of games get released without being ready, maybe this will provide a legal reason to prevent that sort of behaviour.

[serene valley]

like, you making an account to push packages you agreed that your packages would fall under a license to be used within that framework by anyone with commercial allowance or whatever

[cursive solar]

your missing the point, if a game cant be left playable, then that game would be excluded

[verbal elbow]

Guys we need more alphas and EVEN LESS beta testers

[misty hound]

I would appreciate it if you forward them or smth there is so much shit in the chat going on I can hardly find anything. My DMs are also open if you wanna copy paste stuff.

[verbal elbow]

no free ones just AI

and market approved slop

[wet storm]

For the ones I mentioned you can kinda do whatever you want with them

[jolly sky]

The Initiative does not say that.

[maiden talon]

it wouldnt work, no company will EVER just hand out their stuff to random people, and random people, dont have the money to license it themselves

[serene valley]

then that would probably be the unlicense

[marsh dove]

Thor made that argument

[wet storm]

A permissive free software license is what it's called it seems

[cursive solar]

this is on the eu initiative website btw, to be transparent with you

[verbal elbow]

Please stop we need cloned IPS with cosmetics dependant on servers that will shut down in an unreasonable amount of time PLEASE I DON'T EVEN WANT MY MONEY

[frozen nimbus]

^

[jolly sky]

Where does that say that what games are excluded? it doesn't

[brittle jacinth]

Thats the main docuement

[exotic forge]

It will kill innovation because it will restrict the architecture, the technology, the libraries and the services future games will be able to leverage.

[dusty heath]

that says nothing, not even a single word, about excluding any game

[jovial sandal]

and where's the exemption?

[sleek seal]

SKG has a good core idea, but tries to grab too much. It needs a narrower, stricter definition to actually work well.

What Thor went for is an edge case, which is still covered by base SKG initiative.

Tucking the limitation into FAQ is bad design for a law, as is putting out a vague law and letting courts decide how it should work. The current initiative should be updated to be specific in what it requires.

[dusty heath]

it quite literally says all games

[cursive solar]

oop, screenshotted the wrong part lol

silly me

[stone prairie]

I don't think there is anything in the initiative that would impact early access games... Specially with all the warnings ands service terms you agree to in buying into an early access. Much like any investing strategy, choosing to invest in an unfinished product runs the risk of losing your investment... And that will absolutely be the track industry lawyers take with that.

[wet storm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_software_license
This here

[maiden talon]

"requires publishers that sell or licenses videogames" "To leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state" What video games? all video games? because it says games.

[split tulip]

open software like React wouldn't be a problem. it's paid stuff like Easy Anti Cheat that would be an issue

[blissful imp]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-several-people-are-typing-gif-15407184

[misty hound]

There actually were because their argument was basicly like "ddos them so you can kill the game, run your own server and then make easy money"

[verbal elbow]

Please we have to save games like concord

[idle hill]

Guys I have the perfect solution
The game can be opened and run but cant connect to any servers when it shuts down
It can only access offline content if any exists
you dont need to give the players anything, or remove items from their library
Just take off the account verification after you shut down the servers

[verbal elbow]

and Dating sims

[serene valley]

yeah so ALLLL that code is licensed

[exotic forge]

It's a weak argument. There are better ones such as what I'm making and such as a lot of the other arguments Thor made

[verbal elbow]

and the like because...

Reasons

[dusty heath]

it still says nothing about excluding any game from being left in a playable state

[fickle bluff]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/713271865551880202/774056847883632650/image0.gif

[wet storm]

I think license here is being strawmanned when in fact for the most part it won't matter

[maiden talon]

that still doesnt say whats excluded and whats not...

[exotic forge]

So then the game doesn't work if the servers shuts down

[maiden talon]

licenses ALWAYS matter

[cursive solar]

the word says reasonably playable state, if theres a game that cant be left in that state then it would be excluded, but look i realise me saying this doesnt matter

[wet storm]

Not what I said

At all

In the slightest

[frozen nimbus]

Wait I think I remember thor mentioning this, what was the problem?

[wet storm]

Missed the planet and hit the moon

[verbal elbow]

Guys we need more kernal side anti cheat PLEASE just take the dead for my house, IDC if the game is shutting down 11months after it came out

[dusty heath]

reasonably playable still means playable

[verbal elbow]

deed***

[idle hill]

Nah the game works
it opens and loads assets just fine
you just need to make your own servers to play online

[dusty heath]

it's just the same thing worded differently

[sleek seal]

that's not even the problem, how would your run binaries you have no instructions to, in a decade? Like, you have a Linux binary for a server (reasonable case), but it was built for a previous major kernel version and there's been a dozen versions of glibc since. Good luck getting it to run

[split tulip]

from a technical point that would be doable. the difficulty would be the licenses involved

[stone prairie]

No, license is part of the reason The Crew shutdown and a driving factor in starting all this. Ubisoft didn't want to purchase additional time on the licenses for cars and things in The Crew when they already had a sequel out and were spending for licenses there.

[exotic forge]

It's not a strawman, it's a legitimate argument to make because it's a big problem.

[nova bough]

witness the white patch on my void

[cursive solar]

would you say then its reasonable for mmos to be left playable, i would say no if its impossible as people have made me aware of here

[exotic forge]

How can license restrictions be a strawman?

[dusty heath]

it would make more sense to say "if a game could reasonably be left in a playable state"

[sleek seal]

the void is getting old

[brittle jacinth]

yes its a "good" solution but if its not in the game at launch nobody will make that happen cause it takes ressource and people and cost money while everybody is moving to new teams/game

[misty hound]

Yeah but these extra steps are usually the line between the customer is allowed to have this and the customer isnt allowed to have this. Thats kinda the entire issue. I think its fine that they don't explicitly say how they are supposed to do it because it lets companies pick the way they like. I think releasing the networks design document idea is great because you stop wasting peoples time having to reverse engieer stuff but at the same time dont have to give out licensed components. Also putting an IP address somewhere in a client isnt hard.

[stone prairie]

The kneejerk reaction of revoking the game from peoples accounts by Ubisoft was likely an overreaction of caution to avoid any risk of being on the hook for those licenses too.

[verbal elbow]

yeah off brand servers solve the issue

[wet storm]

When you put every license in a bundle, call it the license villain bad man and ignore the most software in the planet, in fact most of the internet at large, is built on software with licenses that don't care how you distribute it so long as it's clear the original creators won't provide a warranty for it, yes, it is a strawman

[exotic forge]

What if parts of the game dependent on online servers? Then if those servers shut down the game isn't in a playable state

[wet storm]

Because I have to ask

[cursive solar]

even so, i would argue that but i dont know the innerworkings of private servers and such

[wet storm]

Which licenses?

[maiden talon]

if you can get it to run, the game would be in a functional/playable state, so in theory, it sounds like SKG is just a bunch of SKill issue Gamers

[verbal elbow]

that one wasn't sarcastic lol

[blissful imp]

fun fact https://youtu.be/CL84wfJoVIU
https://youtu.be/JtX3oXj9yng

[dusty heath]

that is... my point?

[wet storm]

And why is software attached to those so important nobody ever will build anything else?

[cursive solar]

reasonably playable shouldnt be hard to understand

[dusty heath]

it still means playable

[sleek seal]

I can chuck a snippet of code in Go at you, can you build it?

[wet storm]

Too little too late boobysoft I am never buying your products

[tropic wraith]

Its not impossible for the community to create their own servers, for example, the ECHO VR community were able to make compatiable servers to replace Meta's infrastructure, as long as we're legally protected to do that, game developers have an easy out for allowing us to do so

[cursive solar]

but then what if a game cant be left playable, what then? thats where the reasonability comes in

[exotic forge]

But some of those licenses have restrictions. We aren't talking about all licenses.

[verbal elbow]

I'm over ubisoft and treyarch or W.E

[serene valley]

oh yeah I remember that, I made a modloader for that on quest

[toxic rampart]

This is the fun of something so vague and broad.
So many takes on what x means while the initiative itself doesnt specify or clarify what it means itself.

[serene valley]

never got much use tho

[wet storm]

Good, thats exactly my point

[serene valley]

or any updates

[candid shuttle]

No I gave the first example of the intention of something and the reality of something not alligning. One of my best friends had to feel London because of that shiet. I could have also given the example of the Cobra problem that led to cobra breeding.

What the heck do you mean racist? I never brought any race religion or creed into this I am talking LOGISTICS. If you have 10 houses 10 people and you import 15 you have a housing problem. No racism required.

[verbal elbow]

Every time I boycott and come back to Cod... 3 times in the last 25 years I buy the CRAPPY VERSIONS WTFFFF IS UP WITH IPs having ten diffferent friggendevs

[dusty heath]

you're arguing exactly what i'm saying the problem is. their wording implies it must be left playable, you're saying things that don't exist, i've offered wording that would make it make sense, and you're just repeating yourself on the same mistaken interpretation

[cursive solar]

thing is, what im saying is completely valid and im even being charitable towards devs, how am i still getting push back by saying that if a game cant be left playable, then thats fine

[stone prairie]

Licenses aren't always software. If you want Coca-Cola in your game, you're gonna go to Coca-Cola and pay for the licensing rights to include it. If you want the Jets in your american football game, you're gonna pay their licensing fee. If you want <insert any car brand> in your racing game, you guessed it. You're paying the licensing for it! How those contracts are structured can vary wildly.

[exotic forge]

And games vary a lot and many games especially bigger ones may rely on restrictive licenses

[wet storm]

Sorry I was like reading through chat which is going quite fast and reading stuff is pretty hard by why the heck did the word racist zoom by wtf

[candid shuttle]

I had a course called binary malware analysis where we reverse engineered the binaries. That being said fair point.

[wet storm]

Developer skill issue

[jolly sky]

"It does not seek to acquire said ownership of video games, or expect publishers to provide resources for the said video game while leaving it in a reasonably functionable playable state"

But for a lot of games, leaving it in a functional playable state would require them to hand over the IP and copyright over to the individual (Which means, the individual acquiring the ownership of the game) or to provide the resources (i.e. their code, assets, server binaries) Which is also handing over the IP and Copyright over.

You see how that screenshot makes zero sense?

[cursive solar]

thats not how i understood it, most people have understood it the same way

[dusty heath]

your actual stance on it is fine, but the words mean something different than what your stance personally is

[cursive solar]

i get that, but im trying not to argue about something i dont really know, like servers and such

[exotic forge]

You don't know anything about creating software then if you say developer skill issue.

[split tulip]

you need those for stuff like music and cars. otherwise no Ferrari in the car game. music industry would never let you have an open license either

[exotic forge]

"Just create the next GTA 7 in python"

[misty hound]

Do you have an example where that is the case? Because they can always just remove licensed cars for example.

[dusty heath]

the words must be what are upheld in the case of law, so if the law says "reasonably playable," instead of "can be reasonably left playable," then things will go very wrong

[frozen nimbus]

Easy task frfr /j

[wet storm]

Yes, I do. When something doesn't exist, I make it, instead of wallowing in self pity

[vivid maple]

jesus theres a lot of skeptics here in chat

[candid shuttle]

Whilst I agree with you in principle if anything like this becomes law (so I am talking beyond the initiative) then logically it will effect smaller studios to the point that they may not even be able to make their game. This is all speculation but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from.

[wet storm]

Lifetime licenses exist. Need For Speed Underground for the PS2 still has branded cars

[frozen nimbus]

Did he address them well?

[nova bough]

armpit white patch

[stone prairie]

Not wrong, I can agree with that.

[exotic forge]

You can make AAA games?

[jovial sandal]

and it does just as poor job of explaining the issues away as the written FAQ

[frozen nimbus]

Let me try and find the video

[wet storm]

Do you?

[cursive solar]

the way i see it is both sides are interpreting it 2 different ways, but then you might say "oh well its poorly worded if both sides take it in different ways", but honestly its more like 90% of people are getting it right, and then the rest is getting it wrong. specifically that wording

[vestal saffron]

you guys stop puttiong up for thor. he is wrong. he needs to apologize and learn how to actually deal with this stuff before he looses his career. hes a great guy who just cant seem to own up when he does or says something wrong it dosnt meen hes a bad person everyone gets something wrong sometimes its ridiculous

[jolly sky]

Yes. Games like World of Warcraft as an example. You cannot hand over a way for people to run a server on their machines without risking or handing over the IP and copyright to their game.

[vivid maple]

what are you that dumb

[misty hound]

Also licensed work can be removed when the license ends. GTA 5 did this a lot with their music to my knowledge.

[tropic wraith]

Perhaps a threshold could be put in place to make sure smaller studios cannot be abused by this system

[sleek seal]

as someone who works in a software dev company, and who ran pirate servers for a couple of then-popular MMOs - running a server emulator is not trivial. Running an official server is very not trivial. Running a community server is a goshdarn nightmare.

I am all for online-"dependent" games supporting offline mode, if online dependency is not core to the gameplay. Like, I heard Little Big Planet is being archived, and there's a community servers of some sort - this is great.

But blindly demanding the game to be preserved is just stupid. You can't preserve a game like Helldivers or PoE.

[wet storm]

Bruh

[frozen nimbus]

"Needs to apologize" the goal posts are non existent now ig

[jolly sky]

Tell us how he is wrong. We'll wait.

[frozen nimbus]

[serene valley]

he apologized for being rude

[exotic forge]

I can't. It requires a team of developers, lots of money, knowledge of huge architecture, licenses etc.

I doubt you can either that's why what you said was ignorant.

[dusty heath]

the wording is what must be upheld, not the feelings hiding behind it. direct meaning matters in law, else it will be overturned or misused

[wet storm]

I thought the problem in the first place was small studios

[frozen nimbus]

Yeah but this is the internet, so it just doesnt count obviously /s

[wet storm]

Thinking a AAA company won't solve it is beyond naive

[misty hound]

I never heard about this. Is there a specific law for this? I would love to hear about this so I can actually understand the issue.

[exotic forge]

I thought the problem according to you was developer skill issue?

[split tulip]

PS2 was a different era. they likely have a time limited license that would prevent them from legally selling the game 10 years later. but since it's offline there is no way to remove it from the disk

[sleek seal]

chat, I know what the problem is

[frozen nimbus]

👍

[sleek seal]

it's the internet

[jolly sky]

Yes. Copyright and IP law. The developers have the right to own the things they make. Whether that be Assets, code, server libraries etc.

[maiden talon]

if Need for Speed Underground was to have private servers (I have no clue how the game works, so dont get mad at me) because they were to not want their servers up anymore, who would then pay to transfer the license? the person hosting the private server? who would they pay? the people who made the game? the car creators?

[serene valley]

nah they'll just move to 80 dollar games with an excuse

[sleek seal]

SHUT OFF THE INTERNET!

[wet storm]

The apocalyptic vision of a genre of games being detonated is developer skill issue yes

[flint sinew]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

distraction!

[serene valley]

yes please

[frozen nimbus]

Mood

[misty hound]

What is that argument? I have the right to keep the shit I paid for too?

[serene valley]

https://tenor.com/view/distraction-henry-stickman-gif-18396154

[wet storm]

Borderlands 4 my behated

[dusty heath]

https://tenor.com/view/yoshi-mario-yoshis-island-super-smash-brother-super-smash-brother-n64-gif-21681448

[tropic wraith]

His apology was accepted and acknowled by a few 'rage bait' streams whose covered this, but they're still upset Thor had missunderstanding about the initiative and didn't clear things up. That's the main point really.

[sleek seal]

* @serene valley has left the chat

[cursive solar]

the thing is i wasnt confused at all by the meaning of "reasonably playable state", but it seems like people are overthinking and misinterpreting that phrase, despite most people understanding it. its clear cut, games to be left in a reasonably playable state, if its not possible for an mmo for example to be left playable as people here have suggested, then those situations would be left out cause it would be unreasonable for the impossible to happen

[stone prairie]

Yeah, but not every license is lifetime these days. It's not just the feth'n software like adobe and microsoft office going to subscription models as everyone tries to squeeze everyone else for more money.

[frozen nimbus]

Explode the galaxy, no more problems

Its that easy

[exotic forge]

Now you're not arguing in good faith. That is not what Thor argued against.

[indigo wadi]

clearly consumers have no idea what they want other than consuum

[frosty spear]

another slop video hit the feeds. And it's pulling numbers ~85k in 4 hours and the one that pissed me off this morening also had ~85k in 5 hours

[wet storm]

I did say lifetime

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/starrydrms-murasstar-cat-looking-at-toy-cat-cat-distracted-gif-27066162

[jolly sky]

You haven't had the right keep the media you've bought since like, the 70's or even earlier.

[frozen nimbus]

[toxic rampart]

Good idea.

https://youtu.be/spqZXbnlyUc

[frozen nimbus]

Bruh

[lunar moth]

Except that's not what's happening.

SKG is a political movement that has similarities to other movements, all of which if I were to talk about I would recieve warnings for since they would go into the realms of politics not allowed in this Discord. That's the point. This isn't about games, this isn't about preservation, it isn't about any of those things that Scott claims SKG is about; it is raw politics, propaganda, and him wanting to turn his baby (his slogan of SKG) into a political movement to ban certain types of games from being developed full-stop.

I can with clear proof demonstrate this, but again, this is going into full-blown politics. Something which most people aren't willing to talk about, because gamers and developers just like their own games and view this as "Oh, this sounds good - let me support this, and also the guy said it isn't about what it says it is about ... so I believe him! Why? Because I am a gamer and not interested in doing critical analysises of people's arguments or intentions as well as previous positions and stances going back as far back as a person has been active."

Let me put it in a way that makes it very clear why I find it annoying when non-politically savvy folks talk about politics: there's a reason why how politician's voted 20-30 years ago matter to their stance today.
Intention and growth matters to determine what underlying political or policy position a person holds, which is why every politician lies - because they have to. Ross Scott included, the only difference is that I don't think he's doing it intentionally - he's just not politically savvy and don't understand that no matter whatever he does, his initiative will fail, because even if it were to get the signatures it need; no law can be made to comport to his policy and political intentions.

This is why I keep saying that SKG is just a slogan ... because it is just a slogan. Much like most other political propaganda and political movements.
When people don't understand this, they shouldn't talk about politics - one can talk about other stuff, but not the political side of stuff.

[sleek seal]

* @frozen nimbus has left the universe

[misty hound]

I am not entitled to the source code but I think I am entitled to keep my game after EOL when I paid good money for it. You pretend like these assets cannot be contracted out in a way the consumer can have it without giving up the IP.

[wet storm]

Essay jumpscare

[gloomy forge]

LookUp

[candid shuttle]

Whilst I see where you are coming from. In network calculations and optimizations CAN require such R&D that they are part of company secrets. I had a course once were I had to do in network calculation for latency minimalization by making an architecture called mininet. Giving such an architecture can do numerous things. One is to help your competition. But if your next game uses the same architecture it can also help hackers and peopel writting exploits.

[frosty spear]

curious if it's the same 80k people

[misty hound]

Just because I have a Pokemon Game doesn't mean I suddenly own Lucario

[jolly prism]

https://tenor.com/view/wall-of-text-who-asked-gif-13446607101319546836

[frozen nimbus]

Bruuuh

[exotic forge]

What do you mean by assets being contracted out?

[maiden talon]

is it a perpetual lifetime license? subscription based lifetime license? whats going on BEHIND THE SCENES, its not always about what you see on your screen.

[candid shuttle]

Highly context dependent

[jolly sky]

Precisely. You do not own the rights of the assets made by the company if you buy the game.

[indigo wadi]

Nintendo can already do that with the Switch 2

[serene valley]

https://tenor.com/view/peace-out-gif-3584473422170938815

[cursive solar]

havent looked into the conversation you two are having but im assuming he means outsourcing assets and such

probably not tho

[exotic forge]

ITT: People arguing who don't know the first thing about software development

[cursive solar]

just was nosy and poked my nose in

[serene valley]

nintendo turnin switches into paperweights :3

[wet storm]

Oh I don't care what's going on behind the scenes. Neither am I so precious that my car being called the Tenbley Geytanga X is gonna mortify me and stop me from buying a good game

[frozen nimbus]

Colorful paperweight

[maiden talon]

if I give Company A a "lifetime license" im not going to let Company A hand that license off to Random Person B because I dont know what Random Person B wants to do with MY content

[wet storm]

Can't a license be attributed to a product, rather than a company?

[cursive solar]

and thats why im trying to avoid talking about programming 🫡

[maiden talon]

im going to make company A pay for either breaching the license, or make Random Person B spend A LOT of money for said license

[exotic forge]

🫡

[stone prairie]

Wasn't nintendo turning switches to paperweights already disproven? It's banning from their online store/system which may make it useless on its own but chances are if you're doing something to get that ban you don't need their storefront or online network anymore.

[verbal elbow]

No talk about programing WTF are these devs doing

EVERY LANGUAGE lolol

go home

[serene valley]

they're banning the systems so if you buy one of those you are also locked out of online, from what I've seen reported

[stone prairie]

Ah, I guess the cartidge being an online store check instead of a game is also the issue?

[lunar moth]

Sorta, but then you end up with stuff like Photoshop where to continue to use said license once it has been updated - you now need to subscribe to have access to it.
Which is a very differen type of license.

[wet storm]

So old the paws are turning white

[stone prairie]

Which is why I'm not buying a Switch 2 anyways.

[misty hound]

I can somewhat agree with the R&D part but I have never seen anyone outright copyright their network implementation because at the end of the day it tends to just run on TCP and UDP...

For the hacking part. Sure? But do you care as a company at EOL? Writing exploits and hacks isnt gonna stop just because they dont release a document/binary. Obscurity != security.

[jolly sky]

A lot of games that exist would require handing over source code/assets/server libraries for you even play it at "End of Life."

[indigo wadi]

no online, no eshop, no eshop, no games, digitally

[candid shuttle]

Actually a very valid point, I can definitely see that being a solution.

[cursive solar]

im an artist, im sticking in my lane and talking about what i can

[wet storm]

Why is your live service packaged game have photoshop in it?

what

[cursive solar]

cat

paw

[worthy ravine]

On licensing, wasn’t Spec Ops: The Line removed from purchasing because they didn’t want to renew some music license or other such asset?

[misty hound]

Okay but can you show me an example where you don't already have these in binary form in the game that you already bought?

[wet storm]

Rainbow toebeans

[lunar moth]

The person asked if a license can be attributed to a program rather than a person, and I just explained that you are closer to something like photoshop in that case than a game.

[brittle jacinth]

CAT??

[tropic wraith]

What part of SKG suggests it wants to ban certain types of games from being developed?

I didn't find that in any part of the initiative.

[jolly sky]

Almost any game that uses match making to find games.

[misty hound]

Because they dont wanna ban anything.

[wet storm]

So the only thing stopping it is that it hasn't been done?

[nova bough]

he moved from next to me to into my lap

[frozen nimbus]

While yes its a good solution, it still isnt a solution thats in the initiative currently. I think people got tons off good changes they think would positively help the initiative. If only they were added

[indigo wadi]

there's also the fact that people do not have the program to access said files

[wet storm]

SKG breeding inovation here

[frozen nimbus]

Aw

[nova bough]

so fluffy

[maiden talon]

you like silent games?

[verbal elbow]

Sorry Dev here, do you know at least 3 language models? Sorry we can't converse

lol

[exotic forge]

I think the only thing SKG breeds is drama tbh

[split tulip]

what

[gloomy forge]

Yeah good read, SKG is more like a statement rather than something concise. You can see this because everyone think differently, some want to make it so publishers have less powers. Some want no DRM. Most if not everyone want their game to last forever. Many things all at once but what the focus is is up to anyones interpretation and it will probably stay this was until actual law is made.

I'm sure that once SKG gets realized at some form China will jump ship because at no point they will make Gacha games a viable option for that (they're technically free but still somewhat require p2w in many aspects). Ubisoft will release a eol version of their games that only has offline mode. DRM and copy protection will still exist. Populism that demands 100% of something doesn't work as well in Europe as people think. There will be discussions and compromises during drafting all those new laws and rules.

[cursive solar]

i dont know the ins and outs but i play bo2 through a client called plutonium, makes it funnily enough safer to play cause of course bo2 has been abandoned (black ops 2)

[sleek seal]

I once tried to install a package on an old FreeBSD server. It had 7 years of uptime, and all I needed was to install rsync. I couldn't - I couldn't find the dependencies for the packages.
Even if you get the source code, 5-10 years after the shutdown you won't be able to just build it following instructions, you'd have to scour the internet for the dependencies. And doing that for a winblows program, which most of the game servers are? Good luck.

Even if it's Linux, there's a chance you can build it. But are you going to host a very out of date piece of software on the internet? Bad idea.

[tropic wraith]

Yeah I don't think so either, but the guy I responded too says and him wanting to turn his baby (his slogan of SKG) into a political movement to ban certain types of games from being developed full-stop.

[lunar moth]

Eh, essentially yes - beucase it isn't profitable from a game's perspective. It isn't entirely accurate but it is the closest thing I can think of which would describe it in an easily understandable way.

[wet storm]

It isn't profitable so far

[verbal elbow]

Language models sorry programing languages same shit lol llms aka automatic programing languages

[cursive solar]

and plutonium allows you to play in private lobbies/servers

[frozen nimbus]

Ok? Lol

[wet storm]

Again approaching it from an apocalyptic point of view is pretty grim

[maiden talon]

lifetime licenses arent profitable at all

[misty hound]

Okay and if we just dont give them matchmaking and allow for direct connections? Like any other game with dedicated servers?

[wet storm]

It's nice to be a bit optimistic

[exotic forge]

It's nice to be realistic

[sleek seal]

SKG is a very populist movement, it was designed to be simple and catchy, it wasn't designed to be a good piece of legislation

[wet storm]

Those aren't mutually exclusive

[cursive solar]

both, both is good @wet storm @exotic forge

[exotic forge]

The only useful thing SKG movement has done is feed all the drama channels

[wet storm]

Try approaching conversations from a point of dialogue instead of a point of truth

[frozen nimbus]

Lmao we cant converse because we dont know THREE languages models, such peasants we are apparently

[wet storm]

Or else idk touch grass

[verbal elbow]

uh... okay. HUH, Nobody here plays stupid or lords over ANYTHING!

[stone prairie]

My biggest concern is SKG succeeds honestly... I don't have a lot of faith in the current organizers to properly represent their case to the EU commission against the industry. Which will make any follow-up attempts harder compared to just overcoming the signature hurdle. All the rest of this is just people arguing different opinions on what may or may not happen if anything happens.

[jolly prism]

Don't know what demons you are fighting but I hope you will win

[verbal elbow]

Thanks

[maiden talon]

what musician do you know has made it big with a lifetime license to use their music?
what program do you have that you have a "fully transferrable no strings attached lifetime license" to? because I want it as well.
Why do people not care about licensing when its a very legit legal hurdle that would actively screw people over if not handled correctly?

[flint sinew]

just saying briefly, thank you for keeping the topic cordial folks

[verbal elbow]

It's the same imaginary demons EVERY youtuber seems to be fighting

[exotic forge]

Oh yeah it won't do a damn thing

[flint sinew]

carry on

[frozen nimbus]

Yes I would, unfortunately, I am hundreds of miles away

[cursive solar]

just noticed this, thats why im trying to avoid talking about software development

[verbal elbow]

WHERE are they EUHAHAAHA ahahhhhhhh swings at the air in this serveR

[wet storm]

I think the most realistic thing that could happen is lawmakers seeing it, going "lmao videogames toss it" and moving on

[frozen nimbus]

If I ever went to the UK I gotta try some greggs

[misty hound]

I mean I think Thor was hella unreasonable. He literally didn't seem to understand where Ross was coming from and instantly blocking makes you seem very unreasonable.

[exotic forge]

🫡

[frozen nimbus]

Every be talking bout it

[craggy pier]

SKG is 100% gonna get enough signatures now

[cursive solar]

well, at least the nitty gritty anyways

[exotic locust]

Is the searching 'from' specific users command disabled for anyone else?

[wet storm]

It's really hard when people call you ignorant but I am free from the flu and just had lunch so I'm in a good mood

[exotic forge]

Which part did Thor not understand where Ross was coming from?

[frozen nimbus]

Always making sure we do

[maiden talon]

enough signatures or enough legitimate signatures?

[wet storm]

And some peeps are fun to talk to

Some

[frozen nimbus]

[tropic wraith]

I'm not particular on the political wordings, but isn't SKG an initiative, not legislation? Its to start the ball rolling to investigate the problem and find a suitable legal solution, no?

[wet storm]

Others aren't

That's you

Right there

Yes you

Be more pleasant

[misty hound]

https://youtu.be/HIfRLujXtUo
Ross man an entire video just about that. You should really watch it.

[verbal elbow]

"Hey man I know you just quoted the problematic text but here in the THOR server, we just interpret things in a way that matches our narrative so TAKE OFF DEMON FIGHTING SCHIZO!"

[flint sinew]

if there are people being rude/malicious/going against the rules of the server, we have the ticket system for a reason

[gloomy forge]

I feel you can relax, any of this is gonna have precident cases and rules are made in babysteps I'm sure that people will also advocate to ensure developers freedom of creativity which is protected in many basic foundational rules many countries in europe are founded on.

[stone prairie]

That's assuming they don't loss enough signatures to put them under 1m during the validation. And I've seen multiple people claiming to have signed multiple times and I wouldn't put it past some of the drama driven trolls to try and bot signatures on to it.

[brittle jacinth]

legit signature seems more prob jack and pewdi have spoken about it

[wet storm]

Nah it's fine, it's not a huge deal

[exotic forge]

I watched the entire video already. Which part did Thor not understand where Ross was coming from?

[maiden talon]

id have to see their analytics

[split tulip]

If it did pass, I think realistically that not much would happen. the commission would respond (they'd have to), but like most other initiatives they say "we understand your concern, but current legislation already addresses this. bye"

[craggy pier]

Every signatures went through vigorous screening like their security number or passport to sign for anEU petition btw

[indigo wadi]

"the entire video" probably

[indigo wadi]

No they didn't. That comes AFTER the deadline

[maiden talon]

thats not what I saw in here earlier...but ight

[exotic forge]

"Just watch the entire video"

[wet storm]

My favourite one was saying raids would need to lower their difficulty for single player gameplay

[brittle jacinth]

yeah true but because they have high viewer number theres a high chance it pass

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

[craggy pier]

Jacksepticeye, Elon and PewDiePie join in support of SKG

[jolly prism]

Not yet. The screening is after, you can just make up fake ID numbers and names to sign it now.

[misty hound]

Sorry but if the video can't explain it I doubt I can. He already explained what Thor misunderstood in his opinion and Thor did not engage it. I don't want to have a proxy conversation about this.

[wet storm]

Wait Elon?

[frozen nimbus]

Pewdiepie did?

[wet storm]

As in internet's worst meme to exist?

[brittle jacinth]

elon??

[frozen nimbus]

Gonna go check that out rn

[indigo wadi]

roflmao, elon, what a joke. What's gonna do, pay more ppl to play games for him?

[cursive solar]

yep, he made a post on youtube

[craggy pier]

Elon retweeted PewDiePie tweet

[exotic forge]

"Just watch the entire 3 hour video, the argument is in there somewhere"

[cursive solar]

unfortunetly

[jolly sky]

Because the game was not created with locally hosted servers in mind. You would need to completely re-write all of the net code of the game itself. And to do that, making games hostable on an individual PC, would once again put the IP and Copyright at risk. And even if that all happened somehow, there would be a lot of parts of the game that fundamentally do not work anymore as a result.

So now we're back with the game being in an "unplayable State"

[wispy plover]

If Elon is joining it, then that should tell you everything you need to know about why you shouldn't support it

[wet storm]

He needs to keep PoE 2 existing so peopel can play it for him

[maiden talon]

high view numbers doesnt mean anything when you need to be a citizen of the EU to legally sign it. how many of pewds' and jacks viewers are outside the EU, and BS'd the form, if possible?

[wet storm]

Oh hey an intersection I think we can all hold hands and hate on the same thing at the same time

Hate that guy

[serene valley]

From what I know, that's only after they pass the required sig count? Might be incorrect

[frozen nimbus]

Found it 👍

[split tulip]

I did think that was an odd one. I can see how you could draw that conclusion, but it's a stretch

[brittle jacinth]

JUST SAYING Ross made a point that if it fails ITS NOT THOR FAULT

[craggy pier]

Hate for Thor definitely getting signatures

[exotic forge]

Anyway, SKG just breeds drama and it's doing what all the react channels wanted it to do

[indigo wadi]

ah so got someone else to tweet for him. That tracks

[frozen nimbus]

I wonder if mark would say anything about the topic, idk much about Mark but I do enjoy his content. Would probably be a game changer whatever he said

[sleek seal]

SKG is an initiative for a legislation. They want an EU-wide regulation, which is... Legislation!
And instead of being a good framework for a piece of legislation, it's more of a wishlist written on a napkin.

[wet storm]

It's passing dialogue on a stream, I think it was a random thought rather than an informed opinion

[gloomy forge]

Yeah gonna need a villian in any story.

[exotic forge]

Oh yes, that's unfortunately what's happening

[worthy ivy]

it doesn't

the issue is that some types of games will not be practical or economical to develop given the obvious implications of what the initiative is asking for

[lunar moth]

They want to ban games. Ross Scott has openly stated that he doesn't think some games should be allowed to be made in the way that they are made.
That's the entire point of SKG - any game that relies on a service or a license is something he doesn't view as acceptable.

Furthermore, he's not happy with merely a more accurate and clearly stated label of what you are buying - this means that he wants it to affect the development of a game, not the sale of a game. This necessarily means he wants to ban certain types of games that he doesn't approve of.

Then you can start going into Ross history as his entire website hosts all of his videos and every single "monthly stream discussion" going as far back as 2016 (I didn't check to any greater detail beyond that) states his opinions on various topics. From there we can see which games he supports and which games he has said he doesn't approve of.

In his last response video that reopened the harassment campaign, he also provides a handy list of games that he views as "designed to die." Part of that list includes MMOs, online games with competitive scenes, social games where duplicating items would be massively problematic, and lots and lots more.

We know he doesn't want certain games to be allowed to be developed. He has stated this and has repeatedly reaffirmed it for literal years.

[jolly prism]

Redemption arc when.

[wet storm]

Calling Ross a used car salesman and saying he can eat his entire ass was something beyond anti-social and hostile

[split tulip]

that would make sense yeah

[maiden talon]

also, why is the UK even part of SKG

[wet storm]

I'm glad Thor apologized for it

[gloomy forge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-meme-cat-meme-face-chips-cat-eating-gif-15310179217102583800

[maiden talon]

or is that too much against the rules?

[cursive solar]

ngl, i hate the view that if someone bad/thats disliked supports something, that thing is bad too, i dont like elon but bad people can have okay takes (even tho i dont know any about elon..)

[jolly prism]

There is a separate petition for UK.

[tropic wraith]

Rightio, thanks for explaining that.
Still, its not a bad thing. Its common sense that what you pay for you keep, less you know you're buying a service.

[wet storm]

They have their own petition system

[frozen nimbus]

And yet most people still wont acknowledge it, "thor should apologize!" thor apologizes "thor still sucks!"

[maiden talon]

ahhhh

[sleek seal]

that's not the problem. If it does become legislation, it can go very monkey paw, and that would be bad. That's what Thor is against.

[misty hound]

You don't have to make it playable on an individual PC. Most communities that are dedicated just spin up multiple servers, host everything as its needed and people just join. I would love to see a case where you have to rewrite the entire netcode instead of having to replace like 1-3 IPs.

[gloomy forge]

At some point I feel, but first wait until everyone settled down.

[wet storm]

Hot take but it's because Thor is not very good at apologizing

[maiden talon]

no one ever needs to apologize

[outer gust]

https://tenor.com/view/lady-margot-fenring-lea-seydoux-dune-part-two-dune-2-lady-fenring-gif-705368019018542014

[worthy ivy]

what?
<insert not sure if serious meme here>

[exotic forge]

I don't think it is. You even have people in here just baiting

[craggy pier]

Only apologized for calling Ross names instead of misrepresenting the initiative

[jolly sky]

Let's make that point again for everyone to read again.

"Ross Scott has openly stated that he doesn't think some games should be allowed to be made in the way that they are made."

[wet storm]

"It's used car salesman garbage, you can eat my entire ass" when reading the initiative on stream

[maiden talon]

he didnt agree with something some dude on the internet said, he doesnt need to apologize for that, he didnt kill your cat, you dont need an apology, you will be fine.

[brittle jacinth]

it will do a monkey paw situation. What i'm affraid of is that games all turn to subscritption base purchase

[misty hound]

You always gonna have people like that. I didn't see Thor apologize though. Would you be so kind and tell me where I can find it?

[nova bough]

having an opinion is not misrepresentation

[frozen nimbus]

^

[worthy ivy]

well it kind of is used car salesman garbage no?

[cursive solar]

ill say this, hes not good at apologising but im gonna excuse him in this case cause its a thing where both sides can be right

[lunar moth]

Which is why this is proof that folks are just engaging in a harassment campaign because they like drama, and Ross is taking advantage of that to turn his SKG movement into a GG-lite movement.

[prime crest]

He did not misrepresent the initiative. He represented the initiative in a way you did not appreciate. Big difference. Nothing wrong with what he said.

[frozen nimbus]

I thiiiiink thor linked the message here

Let me see if I can find it

[tropic wraith]

Its not that hot of a take, its just a choice. I don't know if its because he's egotistical, or simply feels there's nothing to apologise for, and it doesn't really matter.
But to most people who once respected Thor, its really damaged his reputation.

[wet storm]

Would you like that I called you a used car salesman that writes garbage or that instead I commented on what you wrote?

Show some empathy

[wispy plover]

Normally I wouldn't. But Elon is a pretty specific case. Chances are if he thinks it's good, it has loads of negative repercussions.

[indigo wadi]

yeah, i can see this about how the initiative is worded + the dumb reasonings Ross used "easy win for politictians"

[serene valley]

I think that was specifically in reacting to how Ross mentioned that politicians would have this as an easy win and that they should pass it real quick

[worthy ivy]

and I'm sorry in advance but what is the issue with ass eating?
if I tell you to eat my entire ass I have to apologize?

[sleek seal]

I fully agree that the current situation with "owning" games is a sh--show. You can thank American legislation for the most of it.
We would have a big problem if SKG is implemented 1 to 1 with how the initiative is written - it will clash with a bunch of things and games would suddenly cost a lot more money.

[worthy ivy]

what are we smoking?

[maiden talon]

theres what? 200K people in here, SURELY theres a used car salesman that can explain how its akin to used car salesman garbage

[exotic forge]

I feel like unexceptionalmind is just here right now to trash on Thor

[frozen nimbus]

Ok he usually just links tweets, if anyone has Twitter can they link the Apology thor made

[misty hound]

Yes and thats good? He doesn't want anyone to give up their artistic freedom. He just wants games to be made in a way where people can still play it after EOL.

[split tulip]

https://x.com/PirateSoftware/status/1937994967961706588

Pirate Software (@PirateSoftware)

Just talked to Charlie and Josh Strife Hayes for a bit in DMs.

If you're mad at me for being a dick to Ross I get it and I'm sorry for that. I should not have lashed out but I had an emotional response due to how important this subject is to me.

On the developer side I have

X · Jun 25, 2025, 10:03 PM

[worthy ivy]

you can eat my entire ass 🙂 /j obvs

[wet storm]

Very poor choise of words

insert joker meme

[gloomy forge]

Yeah I feel thats also part of the internet and a way to "get off some steam"? just an assumption. It sucks that people hurt each other over this. I'd just wait until actual lawmaking is made, obviously law making that is going to be this nuanced requires multiple viewpoints.

[wet storm]

Sorry I have good taste

[split tulip]

yah, no need for namecalling

[indigo wadi]

His twitter

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/fetter-yoshi-yoshi-fetti-gif-24291890

[indigo wadi]

yeah, i agree, the initiative is poorly worded

[wet storm]

I know. But the words you use are as important as the message you're conveying

[cursive solar]

i dont know man, elon is not a good person generally and i understand not liking him but im not gonna have a guy like elon be one of the reasons i dont support an initiative

[jolly sky]

So he doesn't want anyone to give up their artistic freedom by.....denying developers the ability to make whatever games he doesn't like the idea of

Did I get that right?

[wet storm]

Don't be like that you're better than this

[exotic forge]

I think its not getting off steam anymore. It's part of their gimmick to trash on Thor now no matter what

[cursive solar]

that would suggest everyone else is bad because elon supported an initiative

[craggy pier]

Hating Elon doesn't make me wanna stop supporting the initiative

[wet storm]

Idk why some of y'all are defending an insult Thor apologised for

[worthy ivy]

ngl I have dropped 'eat my entire ass' three times IRL since I heard Thor say it and it got a laugh every. single. time.

it's not the insult people are making it out to be

asking again - what are we smoking?
that eat my entire ass is some horrible insult

[sleek seal]

but the problem with SKG, is instead of agreeing, going back to the drawing board and putting up a good framework, they're pushing through with an initiative that would be easy to dismantle and neuter, given the opportunity.

[worthy ivy]

grow up people

[serene valley]

Both cheeks?

[misty hound]

These are not mutually exclusive. Make the game however you like. Just make sure its not inaccessible on purpose afterwards? Is this such a bad take?

[lunar moth]

Yes, but you aren't going to get any SKG supporter to admit that this is genuinely his stance as well as the stance of the SKG initative.

[exotic forge]

Grow up people? There's literally one person baiting on this topic

[worthy ivy]

only if you pay extra

[wet storm]

To complete strangers in front of an audience?

[outer gust]

Chat.
Chill.

[wet storm]

How were you not punched several times?

[serene valley]

In this economy?

[gloomy forge]

Yeah never let bad people dictate what you should like and not like or support.

[worthy ivy]

sorry, am ranting at the internet a bit there, we've had lots of "apologise for the ass eating thing"

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/chill-daddy-take-it-easy-calm-down-gif-13696124

[sleek seal]

oi! You got a loicense for dropping dat entire ass?

[worthy ivy]

and it's stupid

[frozen nimbus]

Chat was getting too freaky 😔

[wet storm]

Who's baiting?

[nova bough]

i wonder if my cats are getting tired of the 20 or so pics i take of them every day

[sleek seal]

https://tenor.com/view/touching-grass-touch-gif-21219969

[lunar moth]

Yes. Because people are allowed to make what they want to make, but consumers should be told what they are buying.
Ross is against telling people what they are buying and just want to make it illegal to develop games he personally dislike.

[brittle jacinth]

if it pass, for what we are given in term of info right now, i think it would be rejected immiediately

[maiden talon]

ok, so ill make a game, but the servers for said game cost 200 dollars to set up, and 150 per month for maintenance (these are just arbitrary numbers) are YOU going to be ok paying that? cause im not going to be paying that once my game reaches EOL, no way jose

[frozen nimbus]

I have a gallery with around 900 photos/videos of my cats

[exotic forge]

Thor's been called a million times worse by dozens of streamers and this individual in chat is fixated on Thor calling someone else a used car salesman and asking other members in chat to turn on Thor for this.

[frozen nimbus]

(Ive had them for only 3 years)

[jolly sky]

What makes you think its always on purpose? There are plenty of games that have died out because of malicious attacks, lack of sales, technology differences etc.

SKG and Ross does not distinguish at all with any of this.

Hence, badly worded Initiative.

[fickle bluff]

Sure thing! Fair warning though, I eat asses deep-fried and stuffed with death pepper.

[tropic wraith]

I don't see why they'd be more expensive, although I preusme pressure to raise prices has been increasing for years and if anyone is to blame for giving an excuse it'd be Nintendo. But still the intiative would, ideally only affect the design process of a game early on, and hopefully make game studios more organized for what they're releasing.
I mean, similar design patterns already exist, such as disaster recovery, GDPR.
Its just making those processes more modular in order to be decoupled, which isn't hard at all.

[frosty spear]

have you seen the heat outside nobody is chill right now\j

[sleek seal]

almost certainly

[frozen nimbus]

LOL

[indigo wadi]

this just makes SKG even worse then

[frozen nimbus]

Word its so hot outside

[wet storm]

Hey pretty rude to refer to people in the room like that. Also, two wrongs don't make a right

And, again, Thor apologised for it

Jesus

[nova bough]

solid point. it can be fixed with grass and cats though

[cursive solar]

wait, im sorry, but where did this even come from?

[exotic forge]

And if nobody bit, this individual would continue bringing this up to hopefully get someone to engage in this

[lunar moth]

Correct. That's why I don't support it, and this is why "just read what Scott says" isn't enough - you have to actually do the research to understand his stance and intention.
These has been his opinions for literally a decade at this point.

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-eyes-kid-pork-and-beans-beans-gif-19099849

[cursive solar]

think hes trolling, cause that is outlandish (at least i hope so, cause thats not the initiative lol)

[wet storm]

Honestly going "someone in this chat" when everyone knows who you're talking about is borderline trying to skim the "no pitchforks" server rule

[lime pewter]

Ross has been absolutely courteous, way more so than he has to be during this entire movement, such a shoddy attempt to try and pass blame onto him lmao.

[brittle jacinth]

I DO hope if it pass it turns into something good but the chance of it are small IMO

[frozen nimbus]

Even funnier that thor had apologized for it

[wispy plover]

You've clearly done your own looking into the initiative and have your reasons to support it (or at least I would hope so). I am not taking those away from you. As someone who does not support the initiative, seeing an Elon endorsement is like seeing one more nail in the coffin on something I already decided for myself is bad.

[misty hound]

I think the reasonable side is just upset that he reacted like this. A lot of us just want Thor to address with reasonable arguments why this is bad and explain to us why. Maybe show a couple of good examples where its literally impossible, EVEN FOR A NEW GAME, to make the changes SKG would like and makes the game uncreatable.

[indigo wadi]

which 99% of ppl are not doing sadly.

[frozen nimbus]

Anyways

[indigo wadi]

HE DID ADDRESS, 2 VIDEOS, 10 MONTHS AGO

holy hell

[exotic forge]

Alright cool Thor apologized for it. I guess no baiters are going to bring it up anymore.

[sleek seal]

the first and simplest explanation is: licenses. Any game that has to license anything, usually opts for a time-limited license. If you have to comply with SKG, you have to license everything indefinitely, which is a lot more expensive, or simply abandon any piece of the game that would require a license.

[indigo wadi]

do ppl seriously have a memory of a gold fish>

[brisk sparrow]

I mean ross is the one that brought it back up only a month before it was about to end, so he's not entirely faultless

[wet storm]

My point is that Thor's apology skills need some more sugar. Even if he hates sugaring it

[brittle jacinth]

memory??? on the internet??? whats that

[worthy ivy]

family and friends, but no not an audience
you are mistaking me for someone who is actually successful
my low subscriber count would disagree 🙂
but I''d feel pretty comfortable dropping it in the office for example

[brittle jacinth]

CAT

[maiden talon]

can you answer what I replied to you with?

[cursive solar]

i get that and wont argue of course cause you clearly have your views, at least we both can agree screw elon <3

[wet storm]

We live in the idiocracy, people are moved by feelies, not logic

[naive spoke]

I really miss the pre SKG days when he was playing Noita, and everything was chill.

[misty hound]

Okay but he never went ahead to actually have a reasonable conversation with Ross to my knowledge.

[jolly sky]

Thor literally did give good examples of games that would be uncreatable under what SKG wants, in his 2 videos about SKG on Youtube. 10 months ago

[cursive solar]

the f word got blocked when i tried to say it about elon 😭

[misty hound]

Sure!

[maiden talon]

he doesnt need to?

[worthy ivy]

does he have to?

[toxic rampart]

Almost calculated you might be so inclined to believe~

[cursive solar]

the normal f word btw

[worthy ivy]

braincell 🙂

[nova bough]

my cats are failing

[exotic forge]

I guess I'm wrong. People in chat are still trying to bait other regular members into discussion about the one name-calling Thor did

[wet storm]

I thought so highly of you but you're not succesful 😔

I shall continue to larp you as a beacon of knowledge

[sleek seal]

pre-SKG and pre-WoW classic

[brittle jacinth]

Theres not enough cuteness

[split tulip]

did he not do any sort of podcast circuit or promotional events? that's usually how you'd promote your stuff

[misty hound]

No, but if you don't then at least don't shit on something you not gonna add anything to in a reasonable manner.

[indigo wadi]

Moving the goal posts. You wanted Thor do address points, he did, but nah, not good enough I guess

[brittle jacinth]

and people are gaslith

[lime pewter]

which is entirely within his right? i mean you put stuff out on the movement and he addreses it near the end of the movements life cycle without any naming calling or vitriol and he's supposed to be a bad guy? lmao

[worthy ivy]

it's the push-pull of goblin vs troll - an age old cycle

[wet storm]

I wish I knew chat in that era. I joined from the game jams

[cursive solar]

send a goofy fella

[gloomy forge]

Yeah that is reasonable. Law making can always fall risk to having unforseen consequences as it often happens. Thats why argumentation on both sides would be so important here. I can say that it will happen once the CI passes. Its not a one sided thing.

[worthy ivy]

doubt it stops today

[frozen nimbus]

Im somewhat similar as I a main reason I dont want to support SKG is due to the harassment and raiding from supporters off it. Yes I understand its not all of them, and many civilized people, such as some currently in chat, are discussing in a nice way. But it seems majority are deciding to bash anyone who disagrees with it

[nova bough]

people fell for the drama bait

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/sillycat-gif-16450871626103949888

like this

[sleek seal]

very wholesome

[brisk sparrow]

ross is the one that brought thor back into it*. it had been 10 months since it was last talked about here

[wet storm]

If I didn't enjoy exploring ideas with the fine people there that do provide references to what they're saying I'd've left

[misty hound]

What I want is Ross and Thor to sit down. Give eachother a big hug. Say they both love video games and then show eachother how to make things better. This is what I ideally want.

[dusty heath]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-meme-pee-cat-pee-funny-lmfao-gif-14727908981812019274

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/silly-cat-gif-16653606838521083623

[nova bough]

they're eating the bait like my cats eat churu

[candid shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/me-when-the-person-i'm-arguing-with-makes-a-good-argument-madagascar-soyjak-computer-memes-funny-gif-15573972043454252767

[exotic forge]

And the first thing is to scrap that vague initiative and work together on a new one

[worthy ivy]

but..... tasty 🙂

[brisk sparrow]

doesnt help im hungry IRL

[maiden talon]

is Ross a dev? if not, how is he going to "show thor how to make things better"

[worthy ivy]

never not take the bait

[brittle jacinth]

NAHHHH you just imaginating things.... (be certain i've seen some random ass drama yesterday)

[craggy pier]

The law makers will do that after this petition not us

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/time-to-dev-cat-stress-game-dev-gif-17809881092177742328

[jolly prism]

Seems rude for someone being so appalled by other unkind messages here 🤭

[wet storm]

By giving a consumer perspective

[tropic wraith]

no but he apparently has a bachelors in some legal sense

[frozen nimbus]

Ok I could be very wrong, so please correct me, but I think he also said he didnt want to talk to Ross due to him not condemning the harassment from SKG supporters. Again, he might not have said that and I could be thinking off something else

[maiden talon]

Thor has consumer perspective

[sleek seal]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HHwrYU8OJCQ

[maiden talon]

he plays videogames for 12 hours a day

thats more than some of you are even awake!

[wet storm]

It was a joke 😭

[frozen sonnet]

That’s more than I’m awake!

[jolly sky]

Hard to want to do when you've got several thousand people attacking Thor at every way he turns his head for merely giving an opinion that he was being hounded to give

And I haven't heard a single clip, or quote, of Ross denouncing these people doing that.

[frozen sonnet]

I sleep 14 hours!

[cursive solar]

well... guys,,, there is one thing i can agree with thor on...

[indigo wadi]

Let's see if the initiative passes this step.

[wispy plover]

Hey man, you aint gotta call me out like that

[worthy ivy]

I am (cough) self-employed (cough) at the minute and I don't put that much gaming time in

[misty hound]

Why not just append to this one? The ECI is just for kickstarting a conversation. When the EU looks at this I think it would be great to have Thor explain the issues.

[cursive solar]

greggs, is the best

[lunar moth]

https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/ross-scott-reignites-pirate-software-beef-amid-onlyfangs-wow-drama-3035149/
No, he hasn't been.

He wanted to avoid making enough overt drama to not have it blow back into his face.
But when his intiative was failing, he went deep into it instead. He's been been doing this stuff throughout the entire thing, despite Thor being quiet about it for 10 months - longer than Ross kept quiet about it, not to mention he knew he was responsible for a good chunk of the hate that was sent Thor's way. He never said a thing to dissuade people from doing it, and instead engaged with it himself. Even going as far as to dig back up a 10 month old video which had disagreed with him, to which he think he already responded to and clarified... something.

[gloomy forge]

I feel thats also a good learning experience for both, reach out to each other, build bridged. From "eat my entire ass" to "lets support each other in some way."

not because of money or career reasons, I feel Thor could tank twice the harrasment even considering the way he talked about life. But because it also shows maturety and consideration. Maybe have a deep dive where Thor again pin points down or goes deeper into the issue, like what this chat here is doing. Maybe its naive of me but still it would certainly be nice.

[frozen nimbus]

^^^^

[wet storm]

Oh no the beef has been re-ignited

[cursive solar]

my greggs message got devoured by links 😭

[tropic wraith]

I mean, he's a consumer like all of us, which makes even more odd he'd dismiss the initiative, as its goal is to preserve games via the community

[wet storm]

It's gonna to well done nooo

[misty hound]

I 10000% agree with this. I think SKG should be denouncing shit like this and I asked people in the Discord to do this.

[worthy ivy]

it's not bad

[wispy plover]

Dexerto gonna Dexerto...

[wet storm]

Barbacoa in shambles

[frozen nimbus]

[lunar moth]

That's an article from the 20th of January this year.

[worthy ivy]

greggs is a pretty solid bakery

[cursive solar]

exactly, its not bad, its fantastic /s

[lunar moth]

Sure, but the point is that it references where Ross Scott did this.

[brittle jacinth]

He did say something about the hate if the iniative fails

[frozen nimbus]

He did?

[wet storm]

Bro if the initiative fails this chat is gonna be a wildfire of pain

[worthy ivy]

there's some smaller chains that are better, but you have to be in the right place - greggs is everywhere and does the job 95% of the way - can't complain

[frozen sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-hello-elmo-rise-elmo-hell-gif-3989603362345473118

[wet storm]

I feel bad for the mods

[worthy ivy]

waterfields (if they're even still a thing)

[frozen nimbus]

Im more concerned for the raiding that will happen for the server in general

[brittle jacinth]

yeah in a monthly vid about the skg

[wet storm]

August is gonna be a rough month

[frozen nimbus]

Ye

[worthy ivy]

and greenhalgh's

[cursive solar]

true, not just that but its hella cheap for what you can get, great for the price

[wispy plover]

Full clarity: I didn't read your post yet. I will go back and do that now. Just read the headline on the article lol

[brittle jacinth]

i can search it up if you want

[worthy ivy]

other than them, greggs is where it is at bois

[frozen nimbus]

👍 thank you

[stone prairie]

They're driven by drama trolls. August is gonna suck regardles of the outcome.

[wet storm]

Greggies provides

I used to work close to a greggs and the queue would go around the street corner

[gloomy forge]

I forgot to say that since people say "the downfall of Thor" as a sort of story, why not make it a redemption arc of sorts. Cohh and the others that jumped on Thor when he is weak so to speak would also feel bad. The only ones that don't care would be the hardcore haters. Personally, I just want that things are good

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/greggs-theomonty-my-beloved-gif-27542824

[wet storm]

Nothing beats a cheese and onion bake with a sausage roll and a warm latte

[worthy ivy]

actually I forgot - if you're ever driving down the M5 motorway stop at the farm shop services - their pies are out-of-this-world good

Gloucester IIRC

[cursive solar]

now that looks like a cat that loves greggs

[maiden talon]

because he also sees the flaws in it from a developer perspective at the same time. yeah, im all for it, I would love it if a game like HD2, or POE can be preserved after the game goes down, and while with those two specific games, there are ways they can go about it, a game like FFXIV, where a big focus is on community, it would be harder, even POE it would be difficult since the economy is based off of trading with other people.

No one wants their community game to be full of AI bots and NPCs, thats how you DEFINITELY kill a game.

[brittle jacinth]

it may take times

[frozen nimbus]

If you cant find it I can look on my own time

[shadow dawn]

drama old and boring, cats good and soft

[misty hound]

He's not afaik, but there are obviously things that bother him and if Thor shows him the reason why things are the way they are Ross seems like a person who would show understanding and maybe that's something we can take into account to make things better.

[serene valley]

Being game master in HD2 sounds like a blast tbh

[nova bough]

hes curled into my side

[worthy ivy]

I'm not even a dev (last serious coding I did was Acorn BASIC using DMASprite to run the animations) and I can see the issues

[wet storm]

It kinda felt 10 months ago that the vibe was "I'm not here to fix SKG" or something

[brittle jacinth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z4w_h2-UkM 2:50

[jolly sky]

Everyone taking knives out of their drawers and stabbing him in the back over a nuanced and unique perspective that no one else had given at the time

Like good lord grow the hell up

[indigo wadi]

Thor gave his points, Ross WILL NOT LISTEN, period

[jolly prism]

The main person who can influence it has not shown a great amount of tact so far, but there is always hope

[indigo wadi]

Ross has been given suggestions, he straight up said "no"

[shadow dawn]

i love that for you!! i could not right now, its like 40°C here

[serene valley]

Anyway ima go Eepy deepy

[craggy pier]

Why did Thor not wanna have a conversation with Ross then

[serene valley]

[cursive solar]

i was very pessimistic about the initiatives not reaching their goals but honestly, im feeling pretty optimistic about them now, and again im usually very very pessimistic about things

[indigo wadi]

"if you aren't in favour of this initiative in it's form, you are against it".

[nova bough]

no amount of cats is helping. ill be back when people are...well less crazy.

dont forget to drink some water, and take a walk if its not too hot.

[gloomy forge]

I feel tis not 100% fair of Thor to be 100% tactful when people did all the crazy things he told us he did. Some even went after the ferrets I think.

[serene valley]

I think it was cuz of the wording in the original SKG video

[wet storm]

Oh yeah I saw that

It was super cringe

[jolly sky]

Because Ross refuses to change or modify any parts of SKG to actually make it make sense

[tight bramble]

If he stopped at all he would be vilified

[indigo wadi]

I can't remember the exact reason. Doesn't matter though. there does't need to be a conversation. Thor addressed the points he had issue with.

[weary bear]

I think we all know why lol

[wispy plover]

https://tenor.com/view/dono-wall-gif-24048347

probs cus of that

[cursive solar]

its so hot in my room 😭 i need one of those ice AC's

[jolly sky]

Oh, and also, another direct quote from Ross.

"If you don't have any alternatives to our solution, then you are against all solutions"

Like

wat

[cursive solar]

my normal fan blows hot air :/

[indigo wadi]

which there have been, which he refuses to take

[craggy pier]

I think Thor is usually the wall here in every conversation

[tight bramble]

I hadn't seen you post cats i just got done driving to work! Come back! 😞

[brisk sparrow]

moving is better than stagnant at least

[jolly prism]

I agree it's not 100% fair but standing on business just does not seem to be working

[gloomy forge]

Yeah I wish things would be different there. I don't think everyone would take their knives out but certainly a lot of the hardcore trolls would do evne once things seem better.

[frozen nimbus]

Wait I have a message about this let me find it

[maiden talon]

because he doesnt need to? also, would you want to talk with someone publicly when people in their community have sent you death threats? I wouldnt

[frozen nimbus]

#streamchat message

[stone prairie]

Freeze a tray of water. Set in front of a fan. Turn fan on high. Make sure no electic wires near/under the tray(fire/shock hazard). Enjoy the swamp cooler.

[wet storm]

Him saying something like "If you're against SKG as it stands you are pro corporation" or something

Like cmon mate

[indigo wadi]

Thor has outright stated to not send hate on anyone. He bans anyone that does and proven

[misty hound]

Sorry but all hes asking for is for games to stay accessible after EOL. Is that really too much to ask for? I am gonna ask this again and again.

[exotic forge]

Yeah I mean that settles it then

[wet storm]

Way to aggresively shoot oneself in the foot

[candid shuttle]

Yes, yes he did immediately following the post and EVERY time it was brought up in stream at least over the 3 months I watched.

[lunar moth]

My god, that statement is even worse.
"I don't hate Thor, I just want to undo the damage."

The guy is sending more hate - because this is the type of non-affirming statement confirming people's opinion to hate and to send hate, as it is justifying it by blaming someone else for merely having an opinion and stating it.

[cursive solar]

thats actually a good idea, although i do have my pc next to the fan, but wish me luck soldier 🫡

[indigo wadi]

Yes because on the developer side, it creates a ton of work

for what?

[frozen nimbus]

Also thank you gableking, it still seems like hes very tip toeing around it. But thats just how I see it

[jolly sky]

Yes, he did, and has done. On many occasions about many things. Including this.

But I've yet to see, hear, or read a quote of Ross denouncing anything

[indigo wadi]

because pplare scared to lose games? big whoop

[exotic forge]

I see 2 people in chat are still trying to spread misinformation and hate against Thor

[wet storm]

Counterpoint

[weary bear]

Can we stop playing the victim for a like 5 seconds.

[wet storm]

Developer skill issue

I play the world's smallest violin at someone complaining about more work

[indigo wadi]

counter-counter-point, forcing devs to take on additional costs/losing ip/copyright is insane

[brittle jacinth]

yah but at least he doing something and not just watching.. he's the main starting reason of the hate

[wet storm]

Stealing a product I paid for is criminal

[thick ledge]

why would they ever do that? ross knew what he was doing, he intentionally shit stirred to weaponize thors unpopularity with certain groups to farm signatures, he doesnt care that hes trampling peoples lives as long as he gets to keep playing his old games i guess

[frozen nimbus]

People are always saying stuff like "thor bans anyone talking about [topic]!", people only get banned for deciding to spread hate

[wet storm]

Making this discussion criminally insane

[indigo wadi]

@jolly sky What was thatargument about ip and copyright you keep bringing up?

[split tulip]

people insulting or namecalling those in favour of skg have been banned. I've seen it happen live

[exotic forge]

Chill, I think that person stated they've made a tic tac toe game using chatgpt in java so they know what they're talking about

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/right-yeah-right-yeah-oh-yeah-ohh-gif-14553729619893238098

[jolly sky]

Yes becuase the methods that Ross wants to go through, and will not budge on, will directly remove the Copyright and IP from the people who made it.

Change the methods, then maybe there could be some conversation.

[brittle jacinth]

yeah he is. its still better than drama farming and cultivating the hate at least

[gloomy forge]

Thats, abhorrent to say. The entire Civil Initiative is bound on vague set of rules that is made to be obviously changed during the drafting process where the experts meet each other. Kind of an oximorinic statement if its true.

[wet storm]

lol