streamchat

[flat moat]

Humans are flawed

[hazy storm]

Please let us know what you've learned then. Has your perspective on anything changed

[vocal tree]

I'm really tired of the skg discussion at this point. Most of the people who come here to "discus" about it just want to prove Thor wrong and not actually talk how to improve the iniative

[flint yarrow]

I signed the thing. I agree with a lot of thors points, disagree with others, still think some sort of solution would be worthwhile. But as most here I'm tired of the constant hate so patience is running thin in this regard.

[indigo wadi]

There's no claims to counter. It's parroting nonsense that's been vomited up over the past week. It's nothing new, there's no talking points.

[opaque raven]

@hazy storm this sounds like some very reasonable Audio Length to be honest, I will give it a chance for sure ☀️

[lilac apex]

I had no idea about how important the copyright issues were and how I believe that's the main concern for something like SKG

[golden latch]

Explaining your position especially if it changes is very useful in these type of discussions i agree

[hushed vine]

if only we had a AAA game dev who wasn't a greedy moron, a software engineer, and a registered lawyer all in one place to give us their two cents on this issue.

[lilac apex]

And how it was clearly avoided from SKG for whatever reason

Being difficultly, laziness or a whatever

[fluid dome]

If only

[indigo wadi]

Whose a registered lawyer?

[opaque raven]

Khronos I suppose

[indigo wadi]

He's a paralegal, from my understanding

[round bolt]

According to the consensus it is apparently up to a majority-developer group to both spawn out of thin air and to begin drafting one otherwise it's "not taking industry members into account"

[hazy storm]

You won't be sorry. In fact I'm downloading storm front again right now LMAO

[vocal tree]

Yeah. Khronos is a lawyer. A consumer rights lawye IIRC

[hazy storm]

Ok great start

[hushed vine]

well we're two for one, where's the non-greedy AAA game dev and the software engineer

[indigo wadi]

Well now there's conflicting info

[opaque raven]

Oh cool, what's the difference? Like, in practical terms, I have no clue

[jolly sky]

Because from Ross's own words, it wanted an "Easy Win", something it was never going to get regardless of how much pixie dust or dreams he believes in.

[golden latch]

Their beliefs are the points you are discussing i know that may be hard to deal with but atm they believe that its better to do something then let it be and they see this as the best opportunity, if im characterizing them correctly from the way they have been portraying themselves. There are other ways to approach this to get the type of solution but the outcome and speed is varied on the path

[hushed vine]

everyone wants the easy way out smh

[indigo wadi]

Paralegal is basically a lawyer assistant, to put it simply.

[flat moat]

It's certainly one of the main concerns especially with providing binaries. Can't say there won't be copyright infringement unless a dedicated solution is made and licensed to the game

[lilac apex]

If Ross didn't at least try none of these conversations would even happen

[vocal tree]

You can ask him. He is live rn

[flat moat]

But if the devs are gone... can't get a solution or the binaries

[opaque raven]

So maybe he can't sign or give the final stamp on something legal, is that it?

[lilac apex]

Finding a solution rather than drama farm should have been the dam goal

[indigo wadi]

They haven't provided any points. It's been "thorns wrong" general nonsense, at least as far that I've seen over the last 15 minutes.

[jolly prism]

One is a lawyer the other is a considerably less qualified support role to a lawyer that cannot generally practice law on their own.

[golden latch]

And i think that is admirable but people can move on from a movement and evolve their mindset even if it “fails” to accomplish its set goal.

[fluid dome]

Thorn

[indigo wadi]

Then blame the drama stirrers

[jolly sky]

Almost Every. Single. Argument, that has been said on behalf of SKG here has been broken down into almost infinitesimally smaller points and barriers that it seems the Initiative, or Supporters of the movements has not even considered thinking about.

And anyone trying to hand-wave any of those points away really needs to learn more about the Laws that surround them in their day to day lives.

[indigo wadi]

Mobile, lol

[hushed vine]

most things i see on youtube are "thor wrong. thor a piece of shit. presents evidence of thor being a jerk and 2 minutes of evidence on why SKG would work with nothing to back it up I WANT MY VIDEO GAMEZ"

[opaque raven]

Is it generally a matter of time that you need to be in this position until becoming a lawyer?

[flat moat]

Should have been but it unfortunately turned out this way

[golden latch]

I understand taking a step back and reevaluating the way to interact can help a lot with better learning from them and then possibly helping them learn new things.

[lilac apex]

I blame everyone lol. Everyone is wrong and everyone is right.

[indigo wadi]

Not how that works

[fluid dome]

[indigo wadi]

Disagree that there's something to learn from with regurgitated failed general anti-thor stuff.

[hushed vine]

every drama channel on youtube is talking about SKG it's freaking exhausting

[opaque raven]

Or maybe paralegal needs to pass a certain exam

[golden latch]

It probably means they think its a nuanced discussion and they think some things are valid and some arnt

[golden latch]

From the person not the talking points

Remember people are behind the words

[indigo wadi]

You aren't getting it.

[golden latch]

[tribal canyon]

I can tell why channels like leagle eagle have stayed the hell away from all this

[jolly prism]

Not necessarily but yes, law students often take practice as paralegals before graduating and becoming a lawyer. You can become a lawyer without ever working as a paralegal though (and there are people starting and ending their career as paralegals).

[hushed vine]

why

[indigo wadi]

He is repeating the same anti-thor stuff that's been brought up before. There is no nuance there.

[golden latch]

Yeah it would be a mess and ip law is already a hotly contested debate in law already not even adding the other aspects to this

[round bolt]

Probably because legal eagle is a US lawyer.

[golden latch]

If you want to criticize their use of those points thats fine but they also had valid improvements over the last few hours so im gonna continue working with them and learning more about them

[lilac apex]

Ross was right for starting the movement. He was wrong for leaving out key parts. Thor was wrong to not understand SKG well enough and made to many mistakes that ended up overshadowing the solid points made. The SKG fans were wrong to harass Thor and ruin the chance of working together. But they are passionate for a worthy goal. Thor taking SKG fans attacks as a reason to shit talk was wrong.

[golden latch]

Thats a very good summary on your part thank you

[indigo wadi]

Just stop please. There's nothing to argue/criticise. And you're starting to border on trolling for me.

[jolly sky]

Thor was not wrong to misunderstand a poorly worded Initiative.

It's like saying your friend saying that you misinterpreted his words after he drunkenly slurred to you at 3am in the morning

[lilac apex]

When SKG fails I just hope the next person doesn't do it for content now

[opaque raven]

Myke, take some time off the topic, please please, it's clearly bringing you some stress

You two can continue later ofc

[indigo wadi]

If something is too vague, it is not a persons fault for not understanding it properly when it should of been specific to start with.

[lilac apex]

It has to be vague or it will never be considered

[opaque raven]

That's not at all true tho

[golden latch]

If it does i hope you can use this to talk and work with developers as you go forward and voice your concerns as a customer while still being mindful of the challenges they face in doing so 😊

[hushed vine]

that is a backwards statement what in the world

[flat moat]

No, it doesn't. There are other initiatives that are way specific and got passed

[lilac apex]

You can't dictate laws to a government

[opaque raven]

Oh frick...now I'm on it too...

[jolly sky]

No it does not, as plenty of precise, focused Initatives have been put forward and accepted into law

[lilac apex]

Only the issues that need addressing

[indigo wadi]

No it doesnt. Other initiatives have not been vague and have succeeded.

[tribal canyon]

Bad take, you should be as clear as possible when drafting laws

[flat moat]

You can dictate the specifics tho

[indigo wadi]

To be fair, it's not drafting a law, it's starting the conversation.

[jolly prism]

Good thing the initiative is not a law draft.

[jolly sky]

I don't know where this "it has to be vague" argument has come from but its so wrong that its laughable

[tribal canyon]

Being vague is how you end up with people screaming that they can't buy games in the EU anymore

[golden latch]

And there is the main issue i believe the “the trust of political law makers” seems to be the difference here we are working on

[tribal canyon]

People are acting like it is and SKG haven't made any attempt to correct that

[lilac apex]

We all know they can't be trusted to make laws that benefit us

[jolly prism]

Do you truly believe game developers would rather not sell games in EU at all rather than to accommodate their laws? EU has a track record of influencing the entire world with their laws/initiatives.

[golden latch]

Some trust them to do good others dont and some in betweens this is a good topic we can discuss apart from skg

[jolly sky]

And not even Ross wants to change any of wording of SKG so, we'll see how far that gets him.

[tribal canyon]

Helldivers 2

[golden latch]

Yes

[jolly prism]

What? I have played Helldivers 2 in EU.

[earnest mirage]

if they were very passionate for the initiative to go on and less about harass thor, they would have done more to help it within the last year.
I've been in major communities in my region and if someone posted it, they brought it up once and that was about 11 months ago.

[indigo wadi]

That was Sony, not arrowhead

[jolly prism]

Then we will not agree.

[hazy storm]

Its already happened. Sony throttled helldivers 2 because of PSN access

[jolly prism]

This had nothing to do with EU specifically.

[golden latch]

I sadly have seen it happen for smaller things

[jolly sky]

Which is a publisher, which is what SKG is supposedly aiming at (Which doesn't realise that it will also be against developers)

[tribal canyon]

But it shows just how easy it is to limit game access when the country doesn't allow what you want

[lilac apex]

Yeah SKGs main goal. Awareness in the government that this is an issue

[hazy storm]

Same concept. They willingly gave up revenue in favor of their own internal policy

[jolly prism]

Sure but will it be done for EU is the question - which I believe the answer is "no".

[indigo wadi]

Because more government control is needed...

[jolly prism]

We have no idea what their true internal reasoning was behing this decision, we can only guess. And again, this had nothing to do with EU specifically so the concept is not the same.

[golden latch]

Thats where my basis in that belief comes from anecdotally events of it occurring before. I wish it didnt happen but market carve outs are a well known fact in the industry

[lilac apex]

We can bring the topic back up the following calendar year with an improved argument

[golden latch]

And thats valid

[lilac apex]

It's not a one try pass or fail

It's getting the attention that these are issues that need to be addressed

[tribal canyon]

Yes, come back in a few months with a better proposal that builds off what went wrong this time

[indigo wadi]

Given how this went, I'd be surprised if another picked up any momentum

[jolly sky]

If SKG started off with making Log-in based Single Player only games allow for people to play the game after the Auth servers go down, that would have been a slam dunk.

But no, what it currently wants is to hammer in a nail with a Hydraulic Press. Like yea you're going to get the nail in, but you'll damage everything around it.

But Ross doesn't even want to entertain that idea so, oh well.

[golden latch]

Yeah the removal of sever based drm at end of life id be totally on board with it immediately but thats a different thing than what they wanted i believe atleast at first

[fluid dome]

I'm tired, boss

I can't run, no more

[golden latch]

I hear general chat is good for resting around the campfire

[lilac apex]

Yeah that is my concern

[earnest mirage]

this is not a bit what happened.
PSN should be in there from release. There was issues with the PSN integration and it was delayed.
Problem, Sony forgot to set the geo restrictions from start.
So tons of people could buy and play it, which was not intended.

[golden latch]

That means there would have been geographic carve outs anyway

[opaque raven]

Idk the full story but I feel sorry for Arrowhead. Imagine seeing your work doing great until your angel/pub decides to make a crazy decision due to reasons....and see your whole work going down the drains

[golden latch]

And then when its revoked/pulled back the audience comes back

[jolly sky]

Funny that lmao

[golden latch]

I feel it would have felt futile and unnecessary

[hazy storm]

I was oversimplifying because typing in my phone is a pain in the butt. But my point remains that Sony gave up revenue for countries not covered by PSN

[flat moat]

Let me know how my take is delusional when you have time.

[lilac apex]

Once again I don't blame Thor for finding faults in SKG that is a good thing. I am disappointed he didn't help make it better

[indigo wadi]

Didn't you claim Thor crushed it?

[lilac apex]

Link what you said I'm not scrolling that far back

[golden latch]

And thats okay to believe. Just as valid as him choosing not to as well

[flat moat]

You can click on the replied to on your comment

[jolly sky]

Well, Ross doesn't want to make it better either as he's un-willing to budge on what he wants. So I guess 2 peas in the same pod.

[lilac apex]

Definitely

The only reason people side with Ross over Thor when they both are in the wrong is because Ross is on the side of wanting to protect our rights

[opaque raven]

Must have felt like "my work is meaningless since the kpi can so easily be disrupted by higher ups like this..."
Even tho it's common, it's rare to see on this scale and speed I suppose

[hazy storm]

And thor isn't?

[lilac apex]

And there is bloody wow drama around Thor people are still mad about

[golden latch]

Yeah

[jolly sky]

But in that same fell swoop, he wants to get rid of the rights of the developers who own the game

From AAA all the way down to the Solo developer

[golden latch]

Understand “our” for us includes game devs not just gamers so this can be misunderstood

[flat moat]

He's not protecting rights, he's adding to them

[jolly sky]

Yes, there is undoubtedly a large amount of orbiters that float from drama to drama, just for any excuse to throw hate

[lilac apex]

Look I have no dev understanding so this is 100% an ignorant take but there has to be a way for companies to not kill of games

[proud lily]

What if there isn't? For MMOs thats a very true possibility

[golden latch]

My suggestion is to work with them rather then force them but thats based on human nature

[tribal canyon]

Their is, just vote with your wallet

[jolly sky]

For some games, for what SKG wants, not possible without giving ownership of the game to the individual, or being at the very least a very large risk to their IP.

[golden latch]

There is a way but its very difficult still most of it includes reworking ip laws

[lilac apex]

And if you take a profit loss or have to charge more do it.

[jolly sky]

Which knocks out a solo/indie developer for even making the game

[indigo wadi]

So devs should lose money?

[solemn badger]

IP is a different thing
Companies shutting down servers for games that are unprofitable is a business decision

[proud lily]

Well if reworking other laws is on the table then everything not physically impossible can be done can't it.

[golden latch]

Cause they cant sell you dev tools to make your own servers cause it would risk their ips to do so

[lilac apex]

Profit is money after all expenses so yes earn less or change more

[jolly sky]

And makes those type of games will then lock them to AAA devs only, which will only exacerbate the problem.

[jolly prism]

What would change for you if you were a solo developer that made a singleplayer game? Nothing really, unless you planned to intentionally brick your game the moment you stop releasing updates.

[solemn badger]

You're not entitled to somebody else's work - even if you're willing to pay for it
Offer $LOLWUT and they'd probably sell

[tribal canyon]

£50 indie games and £100 AAA

[lilac apex]

We gave you our money why do you think you can then take away our products

[jolly sky]

I'm talking about Solo/Indie live service/multiplayer games.

[proud lily]

He's not talking about singleplayer. He's talking multiplayer dev.

[golden latch]

If they charged for the dev tools for proper compensation would that be agreeable to you?

[indigo wadi]

No. Just because you don't want a game to die doesn't mean the dev should be forced to lose money.

[golden latch]

Never said for free

[solemn badger]

Because you're not buying a product, you're buying a service
Stop paying your electricity bill and see what happens

[earnest mirage]

there actually is a solution for major license issues in the faq. Simply retire your game before a possible law get into effect, or have luck try to grandfather it before.

[golden latch]

What if i can pay the electrical company to buy the parts to make my own generators

Making new markets is a valid option even if it seems odd

[lilac apex]

If I buy a costume in your game after the initial purchase you shouldn't be allowed to take that away.

[jolly sky]

What if you get banned from the game

[indigo wadi]

Please show license for buying parts

[jolly sky]

You can no longer play, and therefore no longer use it anyway

[solemn badger]

You don't need to pay anyone anything
You can build your own generator
Just don't expect it to be compatible with the electricity grid
Nothing stopping you from wiring your entire house to run on 12v DC

[proud lily]

"Just be there before the law exists" is not a solution to problems with the law.

[flat moat]

for context: Game infrastructure or server backends are often specific to game type.

MMOs make use of thousands of microservices that are custom made and orchestrated

Lobby games like F1, tf2 or red dead use way less services but still require infrastructure set up to make sure that play is not interrupted by cheating. These types are more likely to have dedicated hosting software for players to use

[jolly sky]

Yes, be forced to retire your game. That's a great solution. /s

[earnest mirage]

and what bonkers me most is, this is completely different written in german 😄

[tribal canyon]

Side note but wish 48V DC was more common for IT stuff

Outside of exchange kit

[flat moat]

Licenses and agreements. You need to know what you are buying by reading the agreements and finding the limitations

[jolly sky]

Hence why the "All or nothing" approach that SKG wants will not work.

[golden latch]

My point is making it hard just cause “i dont want to try and work with others” isnt a good option in my opinion working out ways to progress from here and find solutions for these issues is the goal the means may be wildly different from what was started with but thats part of problem solving

[solemn badger]

Weren't datacenters supposed to be shifting to that? Many, many years ago, they were all like "this will save energy from all the PSU losses and reduce heat output"

[tribal canyon]

1KW GPUs happened

[flat moat]

100%, movement needs to be very specific. We are spear fishing, not whaling

[lilac apex]

Shouldn't have broken the terms of service. That's on them. As long as they are justified and if they aren't my country already has a law that forces a refund

[solemn badger]

Once again, there's that entitlement issue
Someone wants to run something for as long as they want to do it. Once they're done, they're done
Just because they did something doesn't mean everyone else is entitled to it if they decide to stop

[opaque raven]

Quick stream question
What the frick happened with Khronos' copter???

[golden latch]

Thats a fascinating law what has happened after its implementation do you know?

[jolly sky]

No, that's on you for getting banned for breaking the License agreement.

[lilac apex]

You can be banned for alor more than cheating

[earnest mirage]

they are, but this takes time.
Also it was mentioned very often, that 48v hprw would get rid of all problems we have with 12v hpwr. 600W could be transferred with one pair instead of 6 pairs.

[lilac apex]

Cheating you live with your actions don't do it again

[golden latch]

I understand this the classic artist destroying their own art is a common practice in multiple mediums

[solemn badger]

One VERY THICK PAIR, otherwise you've just reinvented a fuse 😄

[jolly sky]

Or just, don't break the terms of the service agreement. And besides, that already happens. You get suspended for a while, but something like cheating comes with a ban. And thats all on your behaviour.

[lilac apex]

If you get banned for some glitch and the game refuses to unban you then you use said law

[earnest mirage]

read again, 48V vs 12V

[lilac apex]

Australian is leading in consumer protections

[solemn badger]

I did read, you still need a certain amount of copper to transfer that power

[lilac apex]

You can thank them for the fact steam has refunds at all

[indigo wadi]

Abusing a glitch that results in a ban is the same as cheating

[jolly prism]

Their own art that they own. If I bought a picture, displayed it in my home and the artists suddenly decided I do not get to enjoy it anymore and destroy it, well, let's say I would not be happy.

[tribal canyon]

10KW over 48V is still 200A

[jolly sky]

Huh what.

Australia is the example of where government oversight has had the worst results.

See their nanny state when it comes to games it deems "AO"

Which then can't be sold in AUS.

[golden latch]

And what if the ban is a suspension ban does that circumvent the law cause you can come back just in the future which could be years later?

[lilac apex]

They have to prove malicious intent and if you didn't mean to then you get your money back

[golden latch]

Thats also a demonstration of values that has happened funny enough as well as “self destructive” pieces that are on a time limit via their nature.

[jolly sky]

Yet more things that would be discussed if SKG were to pass. Which is something it also likely didn't think about.

[earnest mirage]

P = U * I If you increase the voltage you can transfer more power with smaller sized cables. May look into things like PoE or USB-PD

[solemn badger]

Kinda almost
In this case, the artist may want to give everyone their work, but something in the production prevents them from doing it

Actual reality: backend game servers may use proprietary SDKs or libraries that they are not allowed to redistribute. Sure, the company could open source their parts and say "Here's the skeleton, you guys will need to find or replace the missing bits" but that may be the most important parts - and there's also zero financial incentive for a company to open source their old works (especially if they think they could ressurect or sell the game later)

[indigo wadi]

Doing the same glitch 3+ times is def abuse. You don't use a glitch more than a couple of times if you aren't abusing it.

First time is accidental. Second time akin to testing it. 3 or more times is abuse.

[golden latch]

Yeah what happens is then the game dies during that time you are suspended is a great question

[lilac apex]

I really don't know the fine details but if you have little or no ability to appeal yourself you fill out some paperwork and the Au government handles it

[jolly sky]

Or even if they wanted to make a sequel based from the Original game. The other means you mentioned, and open sourcing it now means that they don't have the Copyright or IP to that anymore. They couldn't even sell merch of it.

[lilac apex]

And that law was amended that way in 2022

[solemn badger]

Not exactly true
Open source absolutely requires copyright, because you need to have someone who "owns" the code in order for them to give permission for everyone else to use it

[dusky grove]

Tangentially related vid https://youtu.be/OW5MlvvqGjM?si=EPvK-w2OPxVTquWS

Its impossible to save everything. The efforts made to save one thing might doom another and vice versa. Not to mention the costs associated with the efforts.

Skg shouldve taken a look at other conservation efforts in other fields. Its not save all the animals, its save these specific ones that are in danger. Its not stop logging, its stop logging in this one specific forest.

skg shouldve been stop killing these specific games

[lilac apex]

Even 2 times is probably enough to close the case as to bad. But it's better having the option for situations where you are punished when you don't deserve it

[golden latch]

Thats my point they cant sell them the tools and guides as a package on “if you want to make this you have to do this” or try and find an alternative to make it work its a building kit not a total working system. i agree it seems impossible but it can be made easier and more of a business in it. for example selling the package doesnt mean they cant make new servers in the future of their own (looking at the wow classic example) just means they have to bring a new idea. I get the idea of the fear of loss of ip and why i said a rework could allow this to work and even may make a nee market that both saves games and allows these businesses to make more money without personal upkeep.

[idle hill]

gmorning chatters

[jolly prism]

Also, giving people the right to use it and to profit from it are two very different things.

[idle hill]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-boy-patrick-waking-up-3am-gif-26372806

unironically me rn

[jolly sky]

The problem is that releasing the SDK's or Libraries puts their IP at risk, so they understandably aren't particularly willing to do that

[idle hill]

oh dear there's a flash in that gif i do not like that

[solemn badger]

Service is losing money
Why should I spend any more money on it? Just shut it down

Business is about making money, pure and simple. Welcome to capitalism

[golden latch]

Yep that and security issues of now they know what tools they use

[proud lily]

You made that argument a few times now the past few days and while I agree surrendering the IP is stupid and problematic, I don't know if I agree with this exact wording.
Why would surrendering your IP result in you not being able to use the IP again for a sequel/merch?
If an IP enters public domain for example, that doesn't exclude the original owner from using it again, just that everyone can now use it, so I don't see how this interferes with sequels/etc.
I see it reduces monetary incentive of course, since there's now less profit to be made due to competition, but that's about it.

[jolly sky]

Yep, it would affect every single game they make going forward, unless they completely rewrite them all. Which is more money down the drain.

[jolly prism]

Live service games do not make money once they are abandoned by the developer. The risk would only be in place once they decide they no longer want to engage with the game.

[golden latch]

And finding new ways to make money is also capitalism there is a very strong market in “build kit software”

[jolly sky]

Because surrendering the IP now means that you no longer own it, and now every individual person now does.

[lilac apex]

You shouldn't have to lose the IP that's why there needs to be more conversations

[proud lily]

Yes, and you're one of those individual persons aren't you?

[golden latch]

I agree

[solemn badger]

Sure - but are you saying that all these companies are too "stupid" to see the potential revenue stream?
That nobody has thought, "Hey, what if we did this?"
I'm sure people have run the figures, and decided it just wasn't worth it

[jolly sky]

Yes, and now I could make a "sequel" to that game. With their assets, their code, etc.

[golden latch]

They are restricted by the current ip laws so of course they dont thats my point

[jolly sky]

And that is a terrible level of power to just, give away.

[jolly prism]

Just because it would now be easy to access their IP does not have to mean they still don't own it. There could still be stipulations in place prohibiting other people from profiting from it, for example.

[jolly sky]

If it is a choice, then by all means. Thats the Devs giving their blessings. But to be forced to by law is not the way.

[proud lily]

Yes and I agree that's wrong. But I still don't see how that stops you from making your own sequel.

[lilac apex]

Wow had fan made classic servers blizzard tolerated until they rereleased classic

[frosty spear]

Makes video debunking PirateSoftware as a game developer
Introduces himself as a game dev who worked on engine and tools for helldivers 2
Spends ~80% of the video drama farming and clipping Thor
At the end he speak of how great game dev he is and criticizes Thor's code by showing just like 8 code snippets

Can't make this shit up man, that pure incompetence at that point

[jolly sky]

Because the law is complex

[golden latch]

Oh assets are something that can just be removed i think we talked about this before literally just a skeleton only basic code tools and guides on implementing assets and such without giving any actual copyrighted ones away

[solemn badger]

They're not restricted - anyone can release anything they create, to everyone, whenever they like
That's literally a fundamental concept of open source

But when the "bits I own" are heavily dependent on "bits other people own", the value of my "IP" is reduced

Unless everyone builds everything using FLOSS 🙂

[lilac apex]

Why not let people do that until the company wants to use the IP then they have to stop

[solemn badger]

Yes, "Please Internet people, stop doing the thing you're doing"

That's gonna work /s

[hushed vine]

i saw that video tonight lol

same old same old

[frosty spear]

He somehow failed every god damn deception roll

[hushed vine]

https://tenor.com/view/reactions-gif-12900002073893207744

[jolly sky]

Because that would be impossible to implement. You'd have to keep track of everyone making side projects/versions of that IP, and at anytime you can stop them doing that at the drop of a hat

[jolly prism]

To be fair, it's not that difficult to have more direct game dev experience than Thor. As he spent his corpo time as QA and CyberSec.

[idle hill]

sorry man but that is 100% not going to work
people aren't going to just stop making things because the parent company decided to make a sequel

[lilac apex]

Ahh that sucks then

[solemn badger]

Lost me at the first point

Ad hominem is the last tactic of the desperate - you can't attack someone's arguments, so you attack the person

[hushed vine]

can there be one video about SKG that doesn't go over the usual thor drama talking points and actually discuss how the freaking initiative should or shouldn't work

like just one

[jolly sky]

I've seen one, hold up

[lilac apex]

What if they had to apply and sign something saying they will do it in good faith for no profit and held liable for damages if broken

[frosty spear]

You can still be a game dev even if your linkedin profile doesn't say it

[jolly sky]

Ex Valve guy

[hushed vine]

this should be good, right

[jolly prism]

So if a codebase leaks nowadays that would allow people to simply emulate another game - can they do it, as it would be impossible to enforce IP rules? Of course not.

[jolly sky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbwYHZJ1PY&feature=youtu.be

[idle hill]

also won't work. you'd be asking everyone who ever made fanart to get permission from the original IP owner.

[frosty spear]

God damn, gatekeeping calling some a game dev unless you worked for a company is dumb

[jolly sky]

If it's leaked, the company has the rights to go after whoever is working with that codebase. If it's been given away, either through choice or legally forced to, they cannot.

[lilac apex]

How is fan art similar to hosting a server ?

[jolly prism]

Again, it could be "given" away under different stipulations - it does not have to be all or nothing.

[golden latch]

guess our views are very different cause ip is a assets a company has and releasing not the asset but the associated systems not considered the asset shouldnt be the same (the point of change to ip law). who said it was open source im not considering anything skg has said when it comes to the software aspect its a new concept on you buy a product from them and are restricted to the contract based on that product just like any other software but it fills this niche that has cropped up on people wanting to put their money and time to upkeep servers that you as a company wouldnt have to and youd even get payed for an initial sale when youd have normally just lost it all or shelved it and payed for upkeep of the data.

[jolly sky]

Except that with certain games, that possibility literally doesn't exist.

[jolly prism]

Possible, then it is a good thing the initiative (if it will pass) will be heavily discussed first before there is even a chance of it ever becoming a law.

[earnest mirage]

they never actually tolerated those servers. Just because one or two were online a bit longer doesn't make it tolerated or even legal.
Blizz never released any server codes, those servers have always been some wip snippets that someone working at blizzard has brought out of the company without permission.

[jolly prism]

Maybe some games will have an exception - who knows.

[idle hill]

what
I don't see where servers fall into this
weren't we just talking about people using an IP

[jolly sky]

I think giving an angle where developers, be it AAA, indie or solo to be forced to give away their IP is just, plain bad. Really really bad.

[golden latch]

Maybe we need to draw this out

Anyone got a marker?

[lilac apex]

Ohhh I thought blizzard was cool and said go for it

[jolly prism]

That seems like a big stretch is the thing.

[frosty spear]

Also at the end showing code snippets he selected and then going nose up high saying that someone else doesn't know how to code is the most assh!le and egotistical thing a dev can do. And he did that after going on a people were telling me I couldn't code so I showed them mini rant

[idle hill]

I'm thinking of movies, games, artwork, using assets or using said IP
you can't just expect everyone to come to you for permission to host a server either

[lilac apex]

Yes the who game as an IP

I'm just throwing out idea to hear how they can't work

[flat moat]

Not a large amount of them were legal

[jolly sky]

Well, believe or not, something similar has already happened.

Games have been DDOS'd to the point where the developer has had to shut down the game. Under SKG, that now means its "unplayable", and would be forced to give away their IP.

[golden latch]

This is where the problem lays on bad actors

[hushed vine]

thank god for chet faliszek.

[frosty spear]

He's calling Thor egotistical and narcissistic pointing at the dr.k videos while he himself affect all the same mannerisms and behaviors of a narcissist

[idle hill]

A narcissist will always be the first to call someone else a narcissist

[jolly sky]

You mean, pointing at the Dr.K video where he repeatedly refutes that he thinks Thor is a narcissist?

Lmao

[golden latch]

Oh he is either nip picking quotes or havent actually watched the video cause dr.k said literally the opposite

[lilac apex]

Obviously there would need to be fail-safes and all sorts of safety nets. A game might have to be abandoned for 5 years since server termination or something. It gotta be a compromise down the middle

[frosty spear]

If you wrote a character like this in a book it he would consider cartoonishly incompetent at doing propaganda

[proud lily]

That's an unfortunate non-answer but I think I see where you're coming from.
I see a distinct problem with "sub-IPs" where 2 people independently from another create 2 sequels and then sue each other into oblivion for all the convergently evolved parts of their respective "sub-IPs"
Which once again speaks to how fricked IP law is.
But even then I think saying you no longer can make sequels is an oversimplification. (maybe a valid one, hard to say) In reality you can, it's just really fricked up now.

[jolly prism]

Under SKG it means nothing, because it is nowhere near being implemented as a law and proposals change. And the various degress of "giving away" their IP was also already discussed.

[golden latch]

Yeah that happened with sonic in the past with ken penders and warhammer fantasy

[frosty spear]

just a clip of it at the end, going like "I don't have a degree in psychology so I can't call anyone a narcissist but..." cuts to a few seconds clip from the dr.k interview

[jolly prism]

If your argument is, that if the initiative is stretched to it's extreme then it would be bad and therefore the initiative is bad then we will simply not agree. Nobody is going to wave a magical wand and implement it directly as it is into law.

[golden latch]

Also i think they mean the competition for a sequel thats of their own ip seems counterintuitive

[jolly sky]

Ok, then, better wording. Under what SKG wants. And with Ross unwilling to compromise, then, well I don't know what else to say.

Like it or not, Ross and SKG are heading for a Copyright and IP law argument, and plenty of people are just hand-waving that whole point away because emotions have got a chokehold on their brain stem and its not letting go.

[hushed vine]

"i WaNt MaH v1d3oG4m3s FoR3vEr!!!11111 no MATTER THE COST."

[idle hill]

correct, however, we are considering the negatives of what could be implemented as law as a result of the initiative. that does not mean the positive points don't have a chance to be made

[lilac apex]

I watched that video and once again I was disappointed that Thor left out his actions and only focused on the actions of others. What's the point in half truths.

[solemn badger]

"...TO SOMEONE ELSE"

[jolly prism]

True and for me the positives still outweigh the negatives.

[jolly sky]

• His actions

Having opinions that he was asked to make from a near ending amount people asking for them.

[frosty spear]

He is incompetent he's been doing drama videos and comentary for 2 years at this point and he can't even show his point without resulting to clips of a few seconds

[solemn badger]

Also, for live-service games, it's not just the game, it's also the people
MMOs would be less fun if you're the only person in the world

[hushed vine]

how long has this discussion been going on for

[idle hill]

few days I think
with a few breakups in between

[hushed vine]

my god

[golden latch]

Which part?

Its evolved a lot

[lilac apex]

Ross should have changed SKG long ago but he can't change it now or that would be disingenuous and hurt it further. Ross should have reached out to more devs for information and made a better movement

[earnest spire]

yep the same both sides could have done better

[frosty spear]

if we are talking about the same soggy guy the thing he pulled at the end + the entire composition of the video like he was afraid to loose peoples attention and anger towards Thor is what invalidated the entire thing for me

[earnest mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/what-year-gif-19616587

[jolly sky]

We agree.

And just to clarify, many people here (I'd give a good estimate at like, 85%?) Agree with what SKG wants to do, just not at all its methods.

[frosty spear]

Moist critical and accursed farms had better f!king arguments than this guy and he use their clips and somehow failed to even convey those

[lilac apex]

The Dr.gamer therapist dude?

That's what I watched

[jolly sky]

Dr.K isn't "The soggy guy" just to clarify, the person using Dr.K in his video is

[frosty spear]

I'm talking about a guy called soggy cereals

[golden latch]

And some have preposed other ideas in its place as well. its why its productive here we have a vested interest on bettering the market but its tricky to do

[lilac apex]

Ohh sorry I misunderstood

[frosty spear]

no problem

[lilac apex]

I don't like soggy cereal irl so I'll pass on him XD

[frosty spear]

Anyways what gets me is that if you are going to do a drama video at least make it competently

[idle hill]

why do that when I can profit off drama with incomprehensible screeching

[indigo wadi]

That's work. Drama videos don't care about work or accuracy

[hushed vine]

in this economy? as if

[jolly prism]

Drama videos are inherently slop.

[frosty spear]

Like god damn, lie about, misconstrue the truth, cherry pick, misunderstand the truth, it's not like they are doing it live, they can fanagled the stuff so it less obvious of an attack

Also even funnier he didn't even talk about skg all that much

[worthy ivy]

no, see Thor must not only agree with the initiative, but love it...

everything will be all right when the struggle is finished and Thor wins the victory over himself and loves SKG

[frosty spear]

or even have a push for people to go sign it

[lilac apex]

I don't follow drama but I do follow critical and the act man and those videos don't show a great image and a broken timeline

[frosty spear]

he just did it for the views or love of the game I guess

[lilac apex]

Always for money

[hushed vine]

https://tenor.com/view/lord-gif-15153397299583870935

game devs if SKG passes

[frosty spear]

I mean the actman never really passed the sniff test for me so I might be biassed, he always seemed like a bit of a ass on a self imposed pedestal but even his minimally edited video is better at attacking Thor without doing it so obviously

[jolly sky]

God I love it when people post their stream link into a vastly more popular channel in the hopes of getting views

Only to be banned within seconds

[frosty spear]

I mean the chance it will succeed are slim, seen other movements go the same way and they usually don't make it to the finish line, but if they do make it with how limp wristed the main leaders of the movement have been once it hits the politicians and lobbyist it's going to be a disaster

[golden latch]

Hey im here to show you my- “evaporates”

[idle hill]

same vibe as the "mY cHaNnEl iS BeTtER" bots on yt istg

[hushed vine]

"[X]'s STREAM IS TRASH MY STREAM IS BETTER"

[frosty spear]

Like they might do more damage to public perception and law which would kneecap other hopefully better put together pro consumer movements

[jolly sky]

I'm betting on there being a certain amount of people signing it from outside the EU.

Boy are they gonna be buttfrustrated when they can't authenticate that they live in the EU

[hushed vine]

helbeglin i just looked at your X and your art is pretty good @idle hill

just wanna say

[idle hill]

thank you

[hushed vine]

no problem

[jolly prism]

You cannot even sign it outside of EU.

[frosty spear]

vpns are a thing

[tight bramble]

Coming back to my phone after showering, about to go to bed, trying to scroll through all this shit to stay in the loop lmao

[jolly sky]

You can vote it for it outside the EU. It's incredibly easy. It doesn't ask for much.

[golden latch]

I hope its not a barely successful thing then its verification rejected that would be hellish belly aching

[idle hill]

spoofs my location
I'm in

[frosty spear]

also old leaked information and ids

[worthy ivy]

it's just a standard nu-style internet success plan:

• have games initiative that pretty obviously needs a bit of dev input
• visit Discord where 70-80% of the members are indie devs or dev adjacent
• devs on that Discord point out very concrete potential issues from dev perspective
• crash out screaming "devs hate gamer and are evil and want to help Thor kill stop killing games because he is evil and his discord is all just fanbois"

[jolly sky]

But after it gets the votes, there will be a second round where you are required to authenticate and send proven documentational evidence that you live in the EU.

Good luck to the people who aren't in the EU lmao

[frosty spear]

If that happens man they'll come here screaming why did Thor sign for the initiative if he is not in the eu

[earnest mirage]

i've seen people inciting others to use their old passports when they were living in the eu before (e.g. moved from austria to switzerland).
i'm more curious if this will have some legal actions or their entries just getting deleted.

[golden latch]

Tbf we have helped others better understand our views

[hushed vine]

@idle hill also your pinned message on X is very inspiring. i'm an asipring science fiction writer and i constantly struggle with writer's block. also all this shit about AI replacing artists sometimes discourages me. but hearing a fellow artist, regardless of medium, talk about passions like that is very

[jolly prism]

That's... not how it works. You need to provide ID or Passport number, making one up would make no sense, as it will have to be verified

[gentle mortar]

I imagine if it fails, i think it will be somewhere between 96% - 97%. If you ever played fromsoft game where you needed only 3 % of remaining HP on boss and died, I really don't wanna see the reaction after this.

[jolly sky]

Only after it hits the votes. You can still vote for it very easily from outside the EU

[worthy ivy]

you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into

• albert einstein probably

[frosty spear]

yeah and you can find those online for pretty cheap

[golden latch]

Im built different 💪

[untold seal]

I want the the initiative to succeed. I want the monkey pawl to curl. You want more government? Ok.

[golden latch]

Chaos vote

[hushed vine]

MORE GOVERNMENT YAY
https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[jolly prism]

You would have to make up the ID, so while you can doubt that it will be a large number.

[frosty spear]

I raise to you https://youtube.com/shorts/KJ9vOc2ypok?si=-OgT7WJu-Um0YxGk "You make me an enemy because once you start hating you can stop thinking."

[jolly sky]

I would put a large bet on it being more than you think it is

[worthy ivy]

but the government loves and cherishes us right?
and only ever has our best interest at heart right?
right? 🙂

[untold seal]

The goverment will now be forced to engage with industry experts/stakeholders.

Invites Ubisoft, EA ignores AA, small/solo indie devs . KEKW

[jolly prism]

For the initiative to actually pass only to be disregarded due to false signatures would at least be indeed funny.

[flat moat]

It is gaining signatures rapidly

1000 over the past half hour

[frosty spear]

man you haven't encountered petition trolls before,those guys have the ids already forged by the hundreds just for fun

[hushed vine]

"wait where did all these signatures from ohio come from"
"SOUNDS LIKE EU JURSIDICTION TO ME"
"HELL YEAH"
"HELL YEAH"

[untold seal]

GOD BLESS MURICA

[marsh dove]

[jolly prism]

New videos and articles are still coming out. The closer it is to the end of the month the more there will be (especially if the end is not met). There is actually a good chance the target will be met.

[hushed vine]

imagine regulating videogames 🤢

[earnest spire]

wow so many people trust the gov def

[untold seal]

I always enjoy how the normies with their min-wage day job think they are going to outsmart corpos. It is very cute.

[frosty spear]

It get to government and the fossils and anti satanist groups that wanted to ban video games for the past 20 40 years get their chance

[marsh dove]

Bring back leaded fuel

[worthy ivy]

if I put my super-paranoid-read-about-too-many-clandestine-operations-the-government-are-spying-on-me-through-my-teeth hat on...

it looks like an op by AAA and AAAA to add regulatory burdens to smaller companies so they can push them out of the space

someone please reassure me that that would be insane levels of paranoia because it appears more plausible with every passing day /s (sort of) 🙂

but also not /s

[frosty spear]

We need the lead otherwise you can hear something knocking around in peoples heads

[untold seal]

Billion/Million dollar companies have armies of trained and intelligent lawyers, and they have considerable power over many policymakers. If they can find a way to twist this entire initiative to their wims, they are going to do it.

[jolly prism]

Asbestos to every family.

[hushed vine]

wow it's almost as if ROSS DIDN'T THINK OF THAT 😮

[fluid dome]

Debating on touching grass and thinking more about the game I wanna make

[frosty spear]

don't forget the lobbyist and bribery

[jolly sky]

Unfortunately, I cannot reassure you.

As with every passing day, the ending Codec Call of Metal Gear Solid 2 only gets more and more true.

[jolly prism]

He did, he just still thinks it will turn out for the better.

If that is naive is another question.

[hushed vine]

that's even worse

[worthy ivy]

woooooo! cyberpunk dystopia let's g-g-g-goooooooooo!!!!

[fluid dome]

I also don't know how to plan it out without someone else asking me questions all the time kek

[worthy ivy]

but where's my flying car?

[frosty spear]

I think he is incompetent as a movement leader

[worthy ivy]

and it doesn't look like the jetsons

so we can't be 🙂

[frosty spear]

Like 10 months radio silent after having the ears of some of the biggest content creator and then gets back into public awareness by basically using the common enemy strategy

[jolly prism]

Sure, we will see by the end of the month of well the initiative does.

[jolly sky]

Oh, and if you want a refresher....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C31XYgr8gp0

It's honestly disturbing.

[jolly prism]

It is certainly effective, given the coverage right now.

[worthy ivy]

fast forward 50 years and it's like The Running Man but they're persecuting underground indies who dare to release games without an end-of-life-plan and there's like an indie underground helping people distribute these banned * Ephemeral Games*

damn there's a movie in the there somewhere, quick, find a script-writer!!!

[jolly sky]

And a reminder, this game was released in 2001. And its statements are ringing true today

[frosty spear]

it's a common and effective strategy but historical not good for movements

[jolly prism]

"I would rather kill myself than hand over my game! That can be arranged" shoots

[worthy ivy]

ever wonder why Transmetropolitan never got made into a movie...?

someone owns the rights

they're just sat on them

[jolly sky]

Anyway

Released in 2001, people

[frosty spear]

They did the same stuff back then

[jolly prism]

People will still be people, who knew.

[hushed vine]

i was a wittle baby when that game came out :)

[worthy ivy]

plot twist - Kojima is a time traveller sent to save us from ourselves through the medium of thought-provoking and prescient games

[jolly sky]

It's only gotten even more true, especially since the advent of Social Media.

[hushed vine]

i might be misreading this but... potential fraud? 😮

[jolly sky]

Ok, but also

[golden latch]

And he loves feet

[jolly sky]

Its requirements for this are going to be more stringent than just for the vote alone

[jolly prism]

Your name is personal data, you provide it while signing.

Also the ID number.

[native crag]

So it is likely that random checks will turn up some percentage of signatures that doesn't check out as EU citizens. Probably normal. Above some threshold, the entire things could be thrown out on grounds that it's mostly non-EU signatures?

[flat moat]

Yes

[hushed vine]

omg... this could mean... f r a u d ? ? ? 😮

[jolly prism]

Only if it will lower the valid signatures under the threshold.

[jolly sky]

"Designated authorities in all EU countries carry out checks to certify the number of statements of support collected from their nationals.

They have 3 months at most for this. These checks may be exhaustive or based on random sampling."

It's going to want more info that just the signatures for these checks

[native crag]

I dont think that word means what you think it means. You are being weird.

[hushed vine]

https://tenor.com/view/princess-bride-gif-5023039

[jolly prism]

They can check if the IDs are still valid and assigned to the specified person. Also duplicates. You do not need much more.

[hushed vine]

it's 5:20 in the morning i'm sleepy and just being a goober

[native crag]

haha, that's fair. obviously a human of culture that understood the reference

[jolly prism]

I.e. for my country the authority in question is The Ministry of Interior which has access to this kind of data (and more).

[hushed vine]

i have to wake up in 5 hours and 40 minutes to get ready for work 💀

[opaque raven]

Not reading all the messages
Just hope everyone is doing fine ☀️

[worthy ivy]

yeah, they'll take a random sample, check out those and then apply that average to the whole pot to get their final number

at 10^6 the law of large numbers is pretty forceful

[native crag]

yeah, that sounds reasonable.

[native crag]

turn off your electronics, drink some water, brush your teeth, go to bed.

[hushed vine]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-no-mad-angry-gif-5881426

[proud coral]

https://tenor.com/view/noe-gif-14013246347627313258

[native crag]

then suffer. remember it is what you chose.

[earnest mirage]

press Crtl, Alt, Shift and W

[worthy ivy]

disclaimer: not a law-scientist

legal-surgeon?

[native crag]

lawgician

[worthy ivy]

yeah, I like legal-surgeon

[hushed vine]

wow

[worthy ivy]

ThorGPT

hang on, can make it better

[hushed vine]

solution to everything pertaining with SKG:

Vote
👏
With
👏
your
👏
wallet
👏

[worthy ivy]

aha!

[jolly prism]

How could you know for certain that they will not kill the game they are selling?

[hushed vine]

my point is that the live service game model will die if people stop buying them

[jolly prism]

Solution to crime? 👏 just 👏 don't 👏 do 👏 it 👏

[cursive solar]

this will never happen

[hushed vine]

prolly not

[cursive solar]

the thing is, games need to have an end of life plan or at the very least make people aware that you will eventually lose access to a game

thats why i support the initiative

[still marsh]

me too

[hushed vine]

oh no more of them

[cursive solar]

the crew didnt do that and thats one of the main reasons i support it

[cursive solar]

oh my bad, forgot your the only one who can talk about SKG 🙌 my fault

[hushed vine]

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT ALL WEEK

not that i've been present for all of it but y'know

[cursive solar]

well i guess if you dont want to talk about something you shouldnt bring it up?

[summer marsh]

I'm pretty divided on it. If the initiative succeeds it'll probably throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that could be a good thing for the gaming industry, I don't know.

[still marsh]

been here for a long time bud

jason is a PoS and he needs to admit his mistakes, he needs to lay low for a while until all this blows over, then he should admit to Ross personally that he was wrong about what he said about the initiative...

[jolly sky]

Keep attacking the person and not the argument

I'm sure that will work out well

[hushed vine]

hi dan

[still marsh]

he literally said "it is shit, i will actively seek to not let people sign this"

wtf you mean

[jolly prism]

They do have the one joke (attack/helicopter) in their bio, can't expect much.

[cursive solar]

ive stopped caring about what thor has said at this point, whether he hurt or didnt hurt the initiative is besides the point now

[still marsh]

forgot about that xD its an old joke for my friends

[jolly sky]

I see you didn't watch the 2 videos he put out where he calmly and accurately describes the very real issues that SKG has.

Watch those, and then come back to talk.

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/wall-gif-24534315

These white names man smh

[summer marsh]

I'm curious. is Runescape considered a live service game? I don't know what "live service" constitutes. A game which needs servers to play?

[jolly prism]

Aaand they gone.

[earnest mirage]

don't forget he apologised for being mean to ross, but not about the statements themselves.
But some people don't care, not even a bit.

[cursive solar]

i dont know man, ive watched his videos, ive watched a ton of others videos, ive even watched other devs videos on their thoughts and they signed the initiative but is still respecting thor

[jolly sky]

Oh boy, the troll reveals themselves once more

[jolly sky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbwYHZJ1PY

[fluid dome]

@rotund trout got another one here boss

[jolly sky]

Have a watch

[cursive solar]

seen that one too i laughed at that one

[hushed vine]

chet faliszek

[native crag]

Thing is, EU legislation is beyond complicated. There is no way to know how the initiative would be implemented. Generally, additional requirements tends towards expensive demands that only established actors can afford. This pushes things towards AAA/big publishers, who are already the parties responsible for the bigger scandal stuff. It pushes things away from indies, who aren't much of a problem.

[cursive solar]

this one was the funniest out of all i watched

[hushed vine]

bro just disrespects chet what the hell man

[cursive solar]

wait wdym?

[jolly sky]

So, you laughed at the very real issues that he brings up?

Dude your emotions have a death grip on your brain stem and they aren't letting go

[cursive solar]

im not saying i hate the guy

brother chill, he can have his own opinions and i can disagree with him

[fluid dome]

Real talk, this community is important to me and people coming in here attacking it is a fast way to get me to troll you

[hushed vine]

so chet can have an opinion but thor can't?

[cursive solar]

well damn

guess i said that huh

got me there

let me read through my logs and make sure to apologise /s

[jolly sky]

I was waiting that to happen honestly

[fluid dome]

No. Nobody is allowed an opinion.

[jolly sky]

It was only a matter of time

[jolly prism]

arkeen neuvottelukunta muuttuvan - are they trying to summon a demon?

[terse pelican]

I feel that at this point, Any conversation about the Iniative is moot.

[tight bramble]

Reading that url out lol

[cursive solar]

crazy that disagreeing with someone is now disrespecting them

[wanton stump]

Hey sorry if this is already old news but what was the deal with the mr Robot puzzle? Im seeing lots of conflicting info

[hushed vine]

bro you literally said you laughed at him

as is what he was saying was BS

[opaque raven]

All I hope for is for Dan or Myke to not blow a fuse at this point

[cursive solar]

in your head do you think i was slapping my knee crying with laughter at what he said?

[wanton stump]

Like in that first short did Thor actually know 1o57 got a bunch of calls? Like did they tell him directly or did Thor just assume?

[hushed vine]

i should go to bed but i wanna know where this goes now

[jolly sky]

Ignoring all the valid points that people that have far more knowledge about Game Dev than you, and claiming that their opinion is wrong is not the way to approach an argument

[marsh dove]

Tbf those arguments weren’t the best and misconstrued the initiative, the best argument I have heard so far is the legal aspect of distributing server side services etc

[jolly sky]

Much like Ross does

[fluid dome]

People forget that Discord servers are not democracies, and coming in here to start shit is not "having an opinion" so you should absolutely get owned lmao

[cursive solar]

i can laugh at someone cause i disagree with them, he can have a valid point of view but i can still disagree with them

you are choosing to see the way i say things one way because you disagree with me

[jolly sky]

Disagreeing with the evidence put in front of you is how you get Flat Earthers.

[wanton stump]

Im not looking to start anything, just genuinely confused by the events and all the different accounts

[cursive solar]

jesus man, your really comparing this to flat earth?

[hushed vine]

"the eath is clearly flat, because i said so"
"no it's round dummy"
"i see your point, but i disagree."
"BRO IT'S ROUND."
"IT'S FLAT. DO YOU NOT RESPECT MY OPINION??? GET BENT"

[cursive solar]

this is all over me saying i laughed and disagreed with chets opinion

[kindred holly]

Where did he say that?

[jolly sky]

It's pretty hard to read a poorly worded and vague Initiative without "misconstruing" it.

It's like your friend saying you misundertood their heavily drunk slurred ramblings.

[cursive solar]

this is not me saying i dislike chet

and people took it as that cause im sure other people here have waaaay more hostile, so im being treated the same way

no nuance

[jolly sky]

With amount of denial about the very real issues SKG refuses to also realise, yes.

[fluid dome]

I dislike everyone equally

[kindred holly]

This is a f-ing headache

I just woke up

[golden latch]

Chat today 😮‍💨

[wanton stump]

I dont think thats fair tbh

[gloomy dome]

i just asked questions and got banned idk why

[hushed vine]

can i have a 7up instead

[wanton stump]

Theres no real facts to either side really, its all speculation based on experience for both sides

[jolly sky]

YOur name in twitch chat?

[cursive solar]

im done debating about my thoughts on SKG because ive been here since a week ago talking about my views, im not gonna waste my breath to describe my views for people to just disagree with me and wave my opinions away

[gloomy dome]

crowcoregames

[golden latch]

The specific questions can the an issue if they mimic ones trolls use.

[wanton stump]

I dont think comparing differing viewpoints to flat earther is very constructive or productive

[golden latch]

Sorry i only have olives

[gloomy dome]

i guenily am just asking questions not trolling

[summer marsh]

Welp, how specific are EU initiatives really supposed to be? It's not like Ross is promoting a bill, lol.

[jolly sky]

Well, Ross refuses to change his own mindset about his own Initiative, its completely fair.

[jolly sky]

Gee I wonder why you were banned when you're coming out the gate like this

[cursive solar]

i acknowledged the issues before days and days ago but i still chose to stick with my beliefs, just like everyone else

[gloomy dome]

as a autisuic person it looks super bad to me that he is hiding and banning even fans who are trying to ask him "hey am i misinformed"

[kindred holly]

You know, it's points like this that I start to wonder if this server really is a cult.

[gloomy dome]

yeh because he literaly put misinformation out

he said they want singleplayer drm to go that is not true

[earnest mirage]

he did say this back then, but irl he did nothing and just don't talk about it at all. Worked until Ross made a video about 10 months later and start drama again.
Thor already apologized for reacting this way to ross, but not for his arguments.

[wanton stump]

No? The same way you cant prove that Ross's initiative will work you also cant prove it wont. Like the disagreement is because both Thor and Ross believe different things will happen

[golden latch]

Thats okay but the reason could have been the specific phrase if youd like we can try and help

[gloomy dome]

i see i understand

[cursive solar]

because i disagree with people here, does that mean i need to be treated like others like im saying "flat earther" type stuff, just cause im not explaining my views?

[gloomy dome]

im autusic

[wanton stump]

Theres no way to prove either of them tho, its all based on their respective subjective experience

[cursive solar]

cause ive already done that

[fluid dome]

"Apples are good"

"This fascist HATES oranges"

[gloomy dome]

i simply trying to ask why

[jolly sky]

"disagreement is because both Thor and Ross believe different things will happen"

Because SKG fails to account for the vast amount of currently existing laws, and the complexity of game development, from a AAA perspective, all the way down to the indie developer.

[gloomy dome]

i have a very bad habit of overexplaining

[wanton stump]

You can agree or disagree with the perspectives of Thor or Ross but you cant actually prove either one is objectively the correct one

[gloomy dome]

right thats fair however

even if i respect him i cant deny that as far as ive seen he has in fact put out misinformation

[kindred holly]

I vaguely remember him being aggressive about it at first, but I couldn't remember what he said exactly. That's still a bad look in general.

[golden latch]

The problem is trolls also use this method to hide until they get answered and then try and do a “gotcha” so its a precaution we dont mind talking about it here just only if your willing to calmly discuss it

[wanton stump]

So I think comparing that to "Flat Earther" is wildly bad faith

[jolly sky]

If you want a really simple metaphor for all this, here you go.

It's like if I wanted to put forward an initiative for Free Water for All, coming from a tap or faucet in every mile of a country. I make the Initiative look really nice and labelled all the good things that would happen if it went through. Good idea right?

But I didn't think about about the infrastructure changes.

• The plumbing of the water,
• The Laws about what piping is needed,
• The storing of the water,
• The land that would needed to be dug up for the plumbing to go into
• The design of the faucets etc.

And then someone pointed out all these future issues, and I got extremely mad and blamed them for trying to "kill the movement".

This is something akin to what the SKG Initiative looked like, and how it all went down.

[wanton stump]

Cause you can prove the earth isnt flat empirically

[gloomy dome]

im absolty willing to talk about it calmly

i apolgise if i caused trouble

[cursive solar]

see, people only actually reply to me when im outly disagreeing with something they agree with, i just stated why im not gonna explain my opinion after being called a flat earther and guess what, ignored

[golden latch]

Perfect then your in the right place

[gloomy dome]

im just a dumbass lol

[jolly sky]

Then, explain all of this in the Unban request, and thats all you can hope for.

[wanton stump]

You cant prove Ross's or Thor's opinions empirically, they are just opinions and speculation based on their own experience

[earnest mirage]

yeah, he said this in the heat of the moment and apoligized for it later.

[worthy ivy]

This is clearly not a cult. :yarrCult:
(i give up discord sucks)

[golden latch]

Its okay you can make a unban request its not that big of a deal its just very volatile rn

[terse pelican]

[jolly sky]

And opinions deserve death threats, doxxing, welfare checks and in real life stalking it seems

[summer marsh]

[cursive solar]

this is the most nuanced take ive heard here, i actually agree with you, but sadly people here dont see it that way, or if they do they prioritise their emotions first

[terse pelican]

[kindred holly]

My cult comment wasn't meant to be a damn joke. This is like the third time I've seen this shit on the server and it's pissing me off.

[gloomy dome]

basicly this is my argument: he did in fact as far as ive looked into it say something that was not factual

[elder scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/piratesoftware-thor-i-hate-you-internet-gif-4950465273846404545

[wanton stump]

No? But it also doesnt deserve dismissing someone's disagreements as "Flat Earther"

[gloomy dome]

yehhhh i think i alredy put a simple one out haha my bad

[fluid dome]

Well clearly, Thor burned my house down so obviously he's a bad guy /j

[marsh dove]

He did say the initiative would force developers to support a game forever when the petition states clearly this is not the case

[golden latch]

No you are good thats the right process

[worthy ivy]

:yarrCultist:

[cursive solar]

thank you

[elder scaffold]

CLEARLY not a cult

[wanton stump]

I dont agree with Thor's disagreements of the SKG petition

[terse pelican]

@worthy ivy Are you perchance a Sub?

[jolly sky]

We've literally been talking in nothing but reasonable logical takes for the past however many days, but some people just refuse to see anything from the other side.

[golden latch]

Its a sticker not emote unless you sub

[worthy ivy]

of course not, I'm self-employed 🙂

[worthy ivy]

anyhow, the point is that this is clearly not a cult

[terse pelican]

Could have been gifted one, but that is random

[wanton stump]

For example I very much dont subscribe to Thor's idea that a Live Service game is something that is specific to a point in time and trying to keep it alive is just wasted effort

I understand why he feels that way for sure, but i dont agree

[cursive solar]

oh so now you choose to see my message, like i said in the messages people ignored, ive been here explaining my views, ive been here before the eu initiative reached 500k, i dont need to waste my breath explaining it to new people, and if you forgot what i said then im not obligated to explain them again

[wanton stump]

And just as there are things I dont agree with thor on I also have things I do agree with him on

[worthy ivy]

it's kind of implied in the "live" of "live service" and "service" doesn't imply any permanence...

[jolly sky]

Except it does not distinguish between games.

For a Live Service game to be supported forever, it either needs to be done by the developers, or it would legally be required to hand over their work to individuals.

Which is an IP and Copyright issue that SKG does not realise its walking into.

[cursive solar]

i dont appreciate being called a "flat earther" because i explained my views before and wont just because i wont now

[gloomy dome]

if you think about it this isnt about live service games, from my reserch the skg movement is a movement to try to make lawmakers force devs to make playable games less cyberpnk 2707s o

[worthy ivy]

why would you think "live service" meant "lives forever"?

[wanton stump]

Sure but i dont think thats a valid reason to not preserve it in some form

[gloomy dome]

less falout 76s

[wanton stump]

Thats just something I believe

[gloomy dome]

and i absolty agree that they should act on that

[wanton stump]

I dont fault anyone else for not believing it as well

[cursive solar]

i understand there will be others that troll and then its probably fair to call them that, but treating me the same way because i disagree with people here is you just being as bad as the side you disagree with

and watch this get ignored

[wanton stump]

Its gonna come down to your own personal opinion

[worthy ivy]

but I don't think preserving it in some form is a valid reason to involve EU lawmakers

GDPR anyone?
DMCA anyone?

if you don't remember the time before DMCA you probably should think before proposing the EU get involved in anything you care about

[wanton stump]

Oh for sure

[gloomy dome]

i do undersand thors worry of over reach that is a fair and valid consern we dont want govement to over strech and ruin indis thats a fair argment but i think the intent of make shure games are playble is fair

[wanton stump]

I agree with Thor that the government is likely to make things worse instead of better

[worthy ivy]

DMCA screwed over DJs completely

that's my "gamedev"

[wanton stump]

And I dont believe this initiative can actually do anything without fundamentally changing how copyright works on a base level

[kindred holly]

I've seen the same shit whenever people ragged on the length of development that Heartbound's been on at the moment. "Oh, you backed the kickstarter and are frustrated with the lack of progress? You're a troll!"

[wanton stump]

But I still disagree with Thor on the Live Service thing

[gloomy dome]

maybe

[proper phoenix]

Valid

[jolly sky]

Well, we've brought numerous individual points against SKG, yet many people just repeat the same points for it over and over without actually addressing those points

[wanton stump]

Theres stuff I agree with him on and stuff I dont

[worthy ivy]

DMCA was the SKG of it's time - it already happened - the EU screwed the pooch
let's not do that again..... please I'm begging you! 🙂

[gloomy dome]

to be hinest in my oppinon law in genral is old and dated

[native crag]

Are there any NGO's that seek funding to maintain minimum service servers for companies that are going under but would like their games to remain viable? because that's something that could work, and that would not have these issues.

[gloomy dome]

alot of laws do not take internet into acount

[fluid dome]

Publishers releasing underbaked AAA slop is not the fault of the dev teams working on those games when devs are forced to crunch just to make deadlines. The industry is at a point where we've hit the plateau of graphical fidelity and are now just seeing diminishing returns.

There are way too many issues in the industry that this initiative should be focusing on instead.

[wanton stump]

Maybe

[worthy ivy]

I backed the kickstarter so now I own you

[kindred holly]

Oh Jesus

[marsh dove]

That is not something I can argue against since I don’t know about the IP laws etc. but releasing a server binary as is, would not require more maintenance as long as it works on date of release? Obviously releasing code would not be in the interest of a company

[cursive solar]

well ive explained my thoughts on the SKG and why I (myself) believe in the initiative since before 500k, i shouldnt have to explain them again cause i know they will fall on deaf ears no matter what i say, and im sure you feel the same way

[wanton stump]

This is why I think copyright would have to change for SKG to work

[jolly prism]

*I backed the kickstarter so I would like the full release of the game I have backed *

[cursive solar]

i just dont see the point when i am absolutely not gonna convince anyone here

[wanton stump]

IP cant be locked down for lifetime +70 years

[gloomy dome]

thats a fair statmment and i find it stupid that they havent implemmented better working regulations for the games industry however if the skg intinsitve did go through it could be a step toward more laws for the industry

[wanton stump]

Thats the actual issue here

[jolly sky]

Live Service games do not work in the same way that older games did with server hosting. It's a whole network of servers working in tandem

[cursive solar]

i outline my views here, not rationalise and change peoples mind, theres no point in trying to change the other sides mind

[gloomy dome]

im prity shure it can in some cases

[wanton stump]

No thats what I mean

Right now thats how IP works

But I dont think it should

[fluid dome]

Disney:

[golden latch]

Noted thank you for your contributions on your views

[gloomy dome]

oh i see right got you my bad

[gloomy dome]

thats very fair

[cursive solar]

whether this is sarcasm or not ill choose to take it as being genuine, thanks

[wanton stump]

If you could get access to IP and source codes and binaries after say 14 years plus an optional 14 years extension if requested, you wouldnt have these problems

[gloomy dome]

im just highly stupid and oversharing lol

[worthy ivy]

okay, I might have been a bit snippy there

problem is I think I'm funnier than I am

[golden latch]

It’s genuine i know its hard to tell tone through text 😊 sorry about that

[gloomy dome]

of corse you open can of worms with hackers and ip there

[cursive solar]

hahah its no problem, thanks for kind

[gloomy dome]

wow same

[marsh dove]

Don’t they have test environments and stuff? I could imagine a docker test environment for a full server would be handy

[jolly sky]

I have no problem with you having your own views or opinions.

But showing that SKG is not as simple as it claims to be, with numerous reasons as to why, is not "falling on deaf ears"

[wanton stump]

This is how IP used to work before Disney screwed with it to its current state

[gloomy dome]

we often dont know, often they are overworked and underpayed

[wanton stump]

14 years + 14 extra if you requested

[cursive solar]

i understand its a complex issue, i never said it wasnt

[wanton stump]

And then it goes into public domain

[gloomy dome]

they can say they do but realisticly its imposible to say unless you worked on the game yourself

[jolly sky]

Even those test environments are either also working with numerous servers, or the game that is being tested at the time is barely even a game, or even playable so thats not possible either.

[gloomy dome]

and that only ever gos well looks at bad poo horor movie

[earnest mirage]

except it would be the case when you can't release the server binaries (e.g. because of existing licences).
The faq and most additional information were made and released POST and because of thor's videos.
And while this was a possibility , the faq covers games that can't have a plan to be saved by simply retire them before the law went into effect.

[wanton stump]

But thats the beauty of art my friend

[gloomy dome]

i supse art is subjective lol

but that movie sucked

(imo)

[jolly sky]

And if you tried to test that full game on the limited server test environment, it would just shit itself and die, which still makes it "unplayable"

[wanton stump]

But it had a right to exist regardless

[marsh dove]

That’s a good point and the best argument against it imo

[high ember]

how long is this SKG stuff gonna go on for
I'm so tired of the bs

[gloomy dome]

raises hand to argue i um well you got me there lol

[cursive solar]

if people need to know, the reason why i back the initiative is because devs and publishers will get a say in how they reimburse or give back to people who bought their games, now if the initiative said exactly what devs and publishers will and should do then i actually wouldntve signed it, cause that should be left up to the devs and publishers

i do remember people disagreed with me that how do i know devs will have a say

[crimson coral]

indie devs get screwed with the skg initative

yk that right

[cursive solar]

explain, so i know your view

[gloomy dome]

i would like to know why people think this

[wanton stump]

Lots of things suck, protecting your IPs with an iron grip doesnt prevent them from sucking, it just stops everyone else from trying to make something good with it

[crimson coral]

its common sense. say an indie team makes a live service game or a game that requires you to be online

[cursive solar]

cause this is not possible to know as of now

[jolly sky]

I think you've already been told this too. Not to harp on, but this is exactly what I mean

[gloomy dome]

with you so far

[high ember]

you know if you buy a ticket to a concert you're buying a ticket to go see that one concert at that one time right?
not everything lasts forever

[summer marsh]

For as long as there are 2 or more opposing view. It's not just going to die down over night, this is a pretty divided thing which affects a lot of people in this server

[jolly sky]

At this point you might want to start making a notepad for what we've said 'cause otherwise we're just going in circles again.

[earnest spire]

until it ends at the end of the month

[native crag]

any implementation will put additional requirements on devs. likely monetary, since server maintenance cannot be free. this means higher risk, which is already high for small teams

[crimson coral]

if the company has any troubles and the game has to be taken down the devs get screwed even more cause they dont have the money/resources to keep servers up

after the game goes down

[wanton stump]

Okay and? Should we destroy all recordings of that concert after its over? Should all remains of it ever happening be scrapped from the venue?

[jolly sky]

It's going to continue at least until the end of next month. And if it fails, then you haven't seen anything yet.

[cursive solar]

it was a simple question, im not calling him anything by not explaining, theres a difference...

[gloomy dome]

i supose it depends on how anything is written or enforced

[crimson coral]

im hoping the skg iniative fails

[cursive solar]

also, that was not a clap back btw, you were just being disingenuous

[lilac apex]

buying a game where the length of time is undetermined and a ticket to a singular event is a poor comparison

[crimson coral]

it just screws the indie devs over

[high ember]

yeah ik
I don't care ab the movement or whatever as I don't play a lot of multiplayer games, but I do give a shit ab people being shit

[earnest mirage]

the worst is, the faq itself says this in the original language (english), but in german it got rid of those part and just say "those games have to be excepted permanently", which is way different from the english version saying "have to be retired or grandfathered".

[native crag]

we are talking EU law. if it isn't enforcing stuff, it doesnt exist. Law exists to regulate.

[gloomy dome]

thats not the intent tough, the intent is to prevent triple A slop like fallout 76, destiny 2 etc from just realsing buggy broken messes and legaly being ok

[jolly sky]

What I mean was, you've been told why its bad for indie devs a numerous amount of times. For a variety of different reasons, but you still ask the same question as if you've never heard an answer before.

[crimson coral]

do you actually see all laws being enforced anywhere iun the world

???

[gloomy dome]

o oke

[crimson coral]

like i see people speeding all the time and not everyone gets pulled over

maybe 1 or 2 out of the hundreds

[lilac apex]

Can any indie devs say how much it costs to run a server per year

[wanton stump]

Maybe they just havent heard a compelling one then?

[cursive solar]

because everyone has different takes cause im realising very slowly, everyone agrees on a view but nobody agrees on how something is good or bad

[nova bough]

and yet i got a ticket last October

[crimson coral]

skill issue

[gloomy dome]

im in the uk and not the most leagly knowalgable guy so apolgies

[high ember]

maybe read the EULA where games will say that they won't last forever
or buy a different game

[wanton stump]

Like if they dont agree thats just an agree to disagree situation

[nova bough]

yeah i stopped speeding

[gloomy dome]

british (other jokes here)

[wanton stump]

No need to throw insults

[crimson coral]

legally knowledgeable*

[gloomy dome]

oops

[cursive solar]

it was more of a question cause i was curious, ah but notice, im not calling someone names or a flat earther cause i disagree haha

i know thats hard tho

[gloomy dome]

im talking about myself lol

[summer marsh]

Tbh this is the equivalent of asking if game publishers should remove any footage or screenshots of their out of service games... Ofc not man. The impact will last and shouldn't be censored of course, the game itself though is temporary

[lilac apex]

yea thats my point one is not fixed and the other is fix

[crimson coral]

you are basically a flat earther but for skg

denying obvious facts

[cursive solar]

bro wut

[crimson coral]

no different

[wanton stump]

Well cause the initiative is vague enugh people can imagine the implementation in a variety of ways, which is where the disagreements happen

[gloomy dome]

?

[earnest spire]

uhm

[jolly sky]

I didn't call you a Flat Earther. I said ignoring evidence in front of you is "Like a flat earther"

There's a key difference there.

[cursive solar]

true

[wanton stump]

Sorry that wasnt directed at you

[cursive solar]

that is literal semantics

[wanton stump]

I still think you should be able to preserve live service games in some way

[gloomy dome]

not that i mind, im a autuisc so sometimes i misinterpate things to be honest i was joking about myself being british

[jolly sky]

Actual quote

[crimson coral]

^

[jolly sky]

Which is the actual truth.

[gloomy dome]

i promise i dont realy care lol

[crimson coral]

they didnt call you a flat earther

[cursive solar]

and comparing me to flat earthers is fine?

[crimson coral]

bro is ignoring an actual quote

[crimson coral]

yes

you are doing what flat earthers do

[golden latch]

If i saw i eat cows just like farmers does that make me a farmer?

[crimson coral]

ignoring factual evidence

[wanton stump]

Okay but you cant say he is disagreeing with evidence when there is no evidence to disagree?

[gloomy dome]

agree to that quote

[crimson coral]

down with the SKG initiative

[wanton stump]

Like do you have the implementation docs with you? What possible evidence could you have about a vague initiative that hasnt even been presented yet?

[lilac apex]

why don't we move past the flat earth comment

[cursive solar]

brother, ive explained my views before and comparing me to someone that believes in something that conveys no evidence is actually sad

[gloomy dome]

its more that im debaiting the opponinon not the evidence to be honest, the evidence to me sugests the INTENT of the project is to prevent games like fallout 76 from being legaly ok

[dusky grove]

Comparison is fine, arbitrarily assigning a lanel to someone isnt.

Comparison is used in conversation to assist in delivering a message, and yes this includes comparing bad things

[gloomy dome]

is that not a fair statement?

[wanton stump]

All disagreements must necessarily be based on speculation due to what SKG is, there is no evidence to show here

[crimson coral]

YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU ARENT BELIEVING IT

YOU ARE BASICALLY A FLAT EARTHER

dude

its not hard

to READ

[golden latch]

chat

[opaque raven]

Chill peeps

[jolly sky]

So, the evidence that what SKG wants is willingly (or unknowingly) ignoring the rights for Devs of all sizes to own the rights to their games?

[native crag]

that is fair. most people arent, and I am at most one toe deep in how legal shit works myself. thing is, when going the route of EU regulation, that is a massive sledgehammer being applied to a subtle and complicated problem with a million nuances. Any time anyone says "how hard can it be?" about IP law, regulations, game dev, server infrastructure etc, they are showing that they know nothing. it can go really, really wrong if implemented in a bad way. dont listen to gamers on this, listen to lawyers and game devs.

[gloomy dome]

could we cool it with the nameing

[golden latch]

Name calling is a no go

[cursive solar]

brother, its a nuanced topic and you are treating like we know exactly what will happen, chill or you will get banned

[crimson coral]

okay flat earther

[gloomy dome]

oh absolutly

[wanton stump]

How is that evidence? Is that written in their posts?

Thats one interpretation of the facts, thats not evidence

[heady pawn]

Is this the place where I can ask about some more sensitive things (the allegations made about Thor)?

[high ember]

😔

drama is stinky

[nova bough]

i think some people have been in this chat too long. have a cat

[wanton stump]

You can interpret it that way, but you cant claim it as fact or evidence

[golden latch]

Emperor are you trying to get mod wrath?

[cursive solar]

are mods here

[worthy ivy]

always

[crimson coral]

dude its pissing me off people want indie devs to suffer

[cursive solar]

im trying to do something

[gloomy dome]

come on lets all just calm down

[nova bough]

go get some water. maybe go for a walk or take a nap

[fluid dome]

Cat :3

[golden latch]

Thats fine but name calling doesnt help either

[native crag]

dont feed the trolls. take enjoyment in their starvation, and make no note of it - further causing their painful demise in famine and self pity.

[summer marsh]

Personally I think making devs preserve their games for the forseeable future is an unrealistic expectation. it might hurt these games more than its worth

[crimson coral]

calling someone an flat earther is name calling?

wild

[weary bear]

Criticism toward Thor= you want mod wrath 🥸

[golden latch]

If you are frustrated take some time off

[cursive solar]

oh i know, its all good

[opaque raven]

Try to take some time off the topic, maybe it's for the best

[golden latch]

What?

[wanton stump]

Maybe, Id still like some mechanism for preservation to be established anyway

[cursive solar]

?

[opaque raven]

Better thn getting frustrated and angry

[jolly sky]

The very goals on the Initiative want things that are impossible to implement without Copyright and IP being affected, so yes.

[golden latch]

Its the name calling thats gonna get mod involvement not the criticism

[crimson coral]

im also just pissed not even about this

[cursive solar]

i didnt do this

[native crag]

Start up that NGO! Make known that there exists a place that will try to care for the game after sunset. Get organised.

[high ember]

I can't wait for the upcoming game jam
and I hope it's not completely ruined by all the assholes

[dusky grove]

Imma just sit here and eat my ice cream. Yall have fun

[golden latch]

Need some cute pictures to try and help?

[golden latch]

👋

[wanton stump]

Again, thats not how you present evidence, that is your interpretation of the facts based on your own experience, its not any less or more objective than any other interpretation

[weary bear]

Keeping games in a playable state is impossible apparently

[dusky grove]

The january one survived onlyfangs

[wanton stump]

It doesnt mean you are wrong or that Im right, it just means we disagree. You just cant claim its evidence, thats not what evidence is

[jolly sky]

For some games, without Developers giving up (or putting the Copyright and IP of their games at risk) Yes, it is.

[opaque raven]

Avoiding name calling isn't something you should do due to the fear of moderation
You avoid name calling bcs it's the polite thing to do

[native crag]

btw everyone, you can right click someones pfp and choose "ignore" - lets you selfmoderate the messages you see. preserve your sanity, ignore the trolls.

[worthy ivy]

criticising thor = discussion
"why won't you stop killing games you big liar <insert stupid drama talking point here>" = mod wrath

[wind hare]

You have a very confusing argument.

[heady pawn]

I am not here to argue, just trying to get some more information: Can someone help me point to a source where Thor gave his opinion on the allegations about him (I already watched the vide he posted 4 month ago, but I just got served some new YT videos with the allegations mainly about "stop killing games" and was wondering if he addressed them)?

[high ember]

this one feels worse tho
or maybe my memory's just bad and I don't remember how bad it was last time

[worthy ivy]

simples

[gloomy dome]

that depends i do understand now what people are saying that the real ishue is crunch and the lack of rights in the games industry and ironicly ive bene for years saying its a joke that they have no worker rights in the indusry personaly

[jolly sky]

If SKG started off with making Log-in based Single Player only games allow for people to play the game after the Auth servers go down, that would have been a slam dunk.

But SKG wants far more than that, and was not prepared for how it would take to work around it.

[wanton stump]

Even organized you need something to counter the insane IP laws that exist

[cursive solar]

if people need to know, the main driving force on why i agree with the inititave is because it will require devs and publishers to leave games in a "reasonably playable state", if theres a live service game that cant be left playable after servers go down then i say fair enough, i really dont see how this view is flat earther like

and yes, it will be left up to the devs and publishers, not the players

[golden latch]

All his “addressing” is on twitter using tweets no videos

[cursive solar]

in the case that a game cant be left in a playable state

[golden latch]

And mostly to attacks of his character not skg

[native crag]

lawyers exist. go talk to them. (you won't find them here)

[cursive solar]

that take of mine is as nuanced as it gets

[dusky grove]

He hasnt made videos on the skg thing since 10 months ago before the drama. If you want his thought check his twitter and his replies

[wanton stump]

That doesnt really fix anything systemically tho

And I believ IP law needs fixing

[wanton stump]

I disagree, you can add more nuance actually

[golden latch]

That’s probably a very common opinion here

[heady pawn]

i will go have a look. Thanks

[cursive solar]

oh, no i mean thats as nuanced as my takes get, i think at least

[dusky grove]

Oh it is, but they're also more prepared compared to january, id like to hope

[gloomy dome]

know whats funny hades/hades 2 is a huge great example of games sometimes need to be in a state of unplayable before they become great indi devs ovly have so mutch to spend and i think imp it shhould be standard for indis to do a kind of beta/early acess and gather feedback to make the game as good as they can before it is out

[cursive solar]

but yea your right

[wanton stump]

You can always be more centrist

[gloomy dome]

and ovously then legal makers make aa companys not treat people like garbage

[wanton stump]

Enlightened centrist even

[jolly sky]

If SKG wants to actually go down the Copyright and IP law route (hint, it undoubtedly will have to) Then it's also going to have get ready to also argue about every form of digital media that exists.

CD's, DVD's, etc going back decades

[golden latch]

Gotcha your not in deep just a cursory interactor yeah?

[high ember]

hopefully

[wanton stump]

"Its all bad actually, it all suck ass" says the sage

[gloomy dome]

fair

[cursive solar]

i think so? haha, sorry even though english should be my first language, my reading comprehension can be off sometimes

but yea think so

[jolly sky]

Again, the vast majority of people here agree with what SKG wants to do, just heavily against its methods

[wanton stump]

Yeah thats what I hope happens

[weary bear]

none of it's methods are even set in stone yet.

[gloomy dome]

fair howver ive bene playing games since the ps2 era, even been loosly involved in minor indi games i legaly cant talk about (ndas) so

[summer marsh]

Good intentions but misdirected actions

[jolly sky]

Currently SKG is using a Hydraulic Press to hammer in a nail

[gloomy dome]

in my defense i have the experience lols

[hollow gyro]

My favorite Thor quote of all time: "I'm not a fan of the government."

[gloomy dome]

who is

[wanton stump]

Probably, I still thing it is a net good overall tho

[jolly sky]

Yea you'll get the nail in, but you'll damage everything around it

[weary bear]

It's just funny to me that Thor has to die on his hill which essentially is "this whole shit is complete ass"

[wind hare]

If you make a proposal, that's the basis of your argument. People aren't happy with what they have already. Don't act like that is meaningless

[wanton stump]

I believe it will create political motivation for changing parts of IP law at least

[gloomy dome]

exactly probibly now ive had it explained lol

[jolly sky]

Incase you didn't know, Thor also agrees with what SKG wants. But not its methods. Because they're flawed in a myriad of ways.

[hollow gyro]

Apparently the people petitioning, or so it seems to me

[worthy ivy]

yes, this - is also why some peeps are getting a bit snippy sometimes I suppose?

Thor's 10 month-old take on SKG is somehow an issue now, 10 months later?

indie game devs (and wannabe game devs) in this server concerned about the impact of SKG are just "in a cult"?

pointing out issues with the proposal is supposedly "shilling for AAAA"....? most of the goblins here are releasing (or will release) their own games without a publisher even involved!

this is the last discord server you'd find AAAA shills in... has the internet lost it's collective mind? wtaf?

said with love 🙂

[gloomy dome]

didnt no but now i do

[golden latch]

Okay that helps a ton cause we have had those that want to talk in-depth about the intricacies of ip law and the ways its possible to make preservation more accessible and possible. But this makes it much easier to understand your views its much appreciated

[gloomy dome]

the videos made on him make it out like he completly disagrees mr dan

[wanton stump]

And if it ends up blowing up spectacularly then Im gonna be sad

[gloomy dome]

fair?

[wanton stump]

Ah thats where you went wrong, you gotta watch what he actually says

[lilac apex]

SKG can't just magically fix things but at some point the things SKG wanted do need to be addressed and compromises need to me made. There is definitely more that can be done and just because you personality don't think it's an issue doesn't make it so.

[wind hare]

Because those are hot pieces to play on the drama

[gloomy dome]

<is stupid

[weary bear]

I wouldn't know, when he made his first video about it all i recall was him crashing out on it and calling it complete and utter shit.

[jolly sky]

He does not completely disagree, and has said as much. Which is why watching drama videos about him by other people is pointless

[high ember]

I lost all good faith with at least looking at the arguments for SKG when it just devolved into personal attacks on Thor or anyone who's against it, esp from big youtubers whose videos I'm refusing to watch bc of this
I give even less shits now

[native crag]

that is unlikely. there are huge interests in keeping IP the way it is. it would be easier to put additional demands on the devs and leaving IP law basically untouched.

[dusky grove]

The internet never had a mind. Its just screaming and cat vids

[earnest spire]

something will def change good or bad

[wanton stump]

People absolutely LOVE lying and spreading misinfo

[wanton stump]

That might be true

[gloomy dome]

right fair enough sorry man i realy need to be better at that haha

in other news im dead its boiling

[worthy ivy]

fair point
can't lose what you never had!
lmao

[summer marsh]

Oh for sure. I think by turning the rock over in the first place SKG highlighted something surprisingly divided lol

Now we can discuss it

[lilac apex]

both partys are equally guilty in their toxic behavior though

[wanton stump]

But at the end of the day neither of us can perdict the future so, wether you are gonna be right and its all shit, only time will tell

[golden latch]

Thats quite the dream, i like it, however incase it doesnt id say atleast try to remember you can talk to devs (atleast indie’s) and voice your concerns and let them know you value such things the classic incentivize rather then penalize is a great method no matter how the initiative ends

[weary bear]

I mean im just thankful that alot of content creators covered the SKG stuff. So the damage Thor did to the initiative is by this point nullified.

[gloomy dome]

its
79 f here

[high ember]

all those youtubers combined have way more reach than Thor, they could've argued for it without stirring hate
and where were they 10 months ago lmao

[nova bough]

tbh we should go back to just screaming and cat vids.

mostly more cat vids

[gloomy dome]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-fine-gif-24177057

[wanton stump]

Oh for sure

[gloomy dome]

79 f where i am

[wind hare]

What parties? SKGs and, everyone else?

[worthy ivy]

the usual divide on the internet: those that understand the finer points of an issue and those that don't
we all get to pick a side 😦

[dusky grove]

But thors apologized. None of the skg "supporterd" have

[earnest mirage]

Meetball

[high ember]

Thor's apologised, who else has?

[wanton stump]

I dont actively support SKG Im just cheering them on in hopes they get something good

[worthy ivy]

chooose.... your..... side!!!!!!!

[wanton stump]

IF they dont then that is a shame

[worthy ivy]

BATTLE START!

🙂

[spiral moss]

people would rather stay mad and have someone to burn rather than accept an apology on the internet

[weary bear]

Where

[golden latch]

Im sorry to hear that (my normal room temp is 82°f year round and i like it)

[jolly sky]

Well, because an Initiative that fails to account for the vast amount of currently existing laws, and the complexity of game development is wanting to make laws based on that lack of knowledge. And he is passionate about games, and game development.

If you were passionate about a certain hobby, or profession, and from what you saw there was something that was going to heavily limit it, you'd be a little peeved too, I'd like to hope.

[gloomy dome]

he probibly apolgised because of the mass backlash to be fair to him i think its dumb he realy didnt do alot wrong other than maybe get a few facts wrong

[wanton stump]

The both parties? Internet randos online

[native crag]

remember that Disney, Netflix, all the other "big bad media corps" you can think of basically live off the way IP works. it is the commodity they trade in more than the media they produce of it. now imagine all the lawyers they can leverage to make sure that whatever form SKG would take, it does not in any way affect IP law in a way that they dont like. Now flip that and think of your favorite indie dev studios. What do they have to put up against that? Also remember that the beurocracy of the EU doesnt care either way, they just want functional and enforceable regulation.

[lilac apex]

How would they know if Ross wasn't going to address it after all the death threats he received by a much larger streamers fanbase?

[golden latch]

Where else on his twitter and on stream multiple times he admits and apologizes for being “an ass”

[gloomy dome]

just so you understand 50f is normal for my city 79f is abnormal

[wanton stump]

I do agree but there has been significant pushback lately, as more and more IP flops and becomes less valuable. So maybe the time is right and a perfect storm will occur

I think its worth trying at least

[golden latch]

Yeah 110-120 is normal for summer here

[gloomy dome]

i would die there XD

im too british XD

[weary bear]

Nobody cares about him being an ass about it. it's more so him completely missing the point of the initiative.

[worthy ivy]

I hate DMCA for this very reason - there are technical stipulations it is impossible to comply with (and while they're not enforced at the minute, if the police want to shut an event down, non-compliance with DMCA regs on digital DJing can be used as the excuse...
and it's impossible to comply because the EU/UK didn't understand how digital DJing actually works (it's illegal under digital DJ licence to put the tracks on a USB to play them on the decks... I shit you not, that's actually the regs)

[native crag]

even with the risk of the result being that you must be backed by a patron megacorp who guarantees the money to keep the server farm alive forever? meaning that the option of selfpublishing through steam goes away?

[gloomy dome]

the intent is good but the excution is lacking now ive had someone explain that yeh i understand

[worthy ivy]

i have to keep all my digital music on one single hard drive

[dusky grove]

He apologized for what he actually did wrong, which was being rude in his choice of words.

He cant really misinterpret it if it was so vague that skgs methods were up to interpretation

[jolly sky]

One thing here. I've never seen anyone here, or online, be actually toxic against SKG supporters. And if they have, they're banned before you can even say "SKG".

And also Thor has denounced, on multiple occasions on multiple subjects, anyone who White Knights or Defends on behalf of him, especially if its toxic or aggressive.

[gloomy dome]

fair enough