streamchat

[worthy ivy]

the old mission impossible 2 gambit - classic

[wet storm]

It's the youngest of the four

I love how there's many depictions of Bezos whenever there's an ad

[dusky grove]

thank nelas for that

[dusky grove]

they're a recent addition

[wet storm]

I got the heads mixed up hahaha

[fickle bluff]

Same

[nova bough]

lol

[opaque raven]

Slaanesh cultists are....something

[gentle mortar]

same

[fickle bluff]

They're a bit...intense

[opaque raven]

I have a very genocidal question 🐭

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/excited-listening-go-on-jon-stewart-gif-11365765162220807492

[opaque raven]

Would killing all sentient life be a way to destroy the Chaos Gods?

[wet storm]

Yes

[fickle bluff]

yes

[opaque raven]

Hm

We can work on this

Make an initiative, send to the EU and (...)

[idle hill]

https://tenor.com/view/phineas-and-ferb-i-know-what-were-gonna-do-today-i-know-what-were-going-to-do-today-gif-27359053

[fickle bluff]

Tyranids are already workshopping it

[wet storm]

Incidentally the tyranids have no presence in the warp, and the Necrons don't have souls. So if either wins, that's also a way

[opaque raven]

I was thinking about AI and robots

Screw sentience, AI will dominate the galaxy

[wet storm]

That's necrons tbh

I think

The lore is murky

[fickle bluff]

Weell...not really? Necrons aren't AI

[wet storm]

I think the big wigs have souls now

[opaque raven]

What if we freeze conscience for a century?

Freeze the universe

[wet storm]

Maybe not, but they're souless husks animated but a robotic living metal brain

If it quacks like a duck it can save the galaxy

[opaque raven]

I'm sided with Necrons now

[wet storm]

They'd come back. The Warp is an extension of consciousness

Every though, every subconcious want becomes manifest

The stuff in there is mostly just a force of nature. A hurricane doesn't have any sort of want

[opaque raven]

Hmmmm

[wet storm]

Except in the west coast then it wants to kill Thor's internet

[opaque raven]

Ok, no other way....we need to send someone to marry Slaanesh

So we can unite both planes

[worthy ivy]

we are the biological bootstrap caterpillar of the digital butterfly of AGI

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-pablo-lonely-alone-gif-12928789

[opaque raven]

I mean, this is a impossible battle to win

[fickle bluff]

Indeed

And it's not meant to be won

[opaque raven]

Unless you purify the Warp

Which is....hmmm

[wet storm]

That's the schtick with both Warhammer fantasy and 40k

[fickle bluff]

'Cause then GW won't be able to sell minis and books and whatnot

[opaque raven]

Can you live inside the warp?

[wet storm]

Yes but it's a lousy existence

Kaldor Drogo is stuck there, the chapter master of the grey knights

[fickle bluff]

He's having the time of his life though

[wet storm]

Probably completely insane

[fickle bluff]

which is as close to "happy" as space marine gets

[idle hill]

better a life of insanity while surrounded by sane folk than one of sanity surrounded by the insane

is what I WOULD say if I was INSANE

which I am NOT

[fickle bluff]

or so you think

[terse pelican]

But by that logic, The person that is ''sane'' in a world of "insane" people, would be the one actually Insane

[gentle mortar]

that's what insane person would say

[wet storm]

As Chaos Space Marine Sargent from Dawn of War would say

Sanity is for the weak

[fickle bluff]

based

[wet storm]

Which implies strength comes from going BRLRLLBLFLRLG

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/insane-insanity-jim-carey-gif-13068014

[opaque raven]

Who is considered an absolute hero of the space marines?

[wet storm]

World's weakest heretic

[wet storm]

Depends on who you ask

[tribal nest]

Sigismund probably

[wet storm]

Bait used to be believable

[tribal nest]

How is that possibly bait

[wet storm]

I'm kidding lol, isn't Sigismund a lunatic?

[tribal nest]

I mean, who isn’t

[opaque raven]

Malcador looks SICK

[wet storm]

Oh, Sanguinius

[opaque raven]

Super cool

[wet storm]

Sanguinius is the Primark of the blood angels and basically Warhammer Jesus

[opaque raven]

Horus Heresy

Ok

Reading

[wet storm]

He's dead tho 😭

[tribal nest]

But he is probably one of the most respected space marines in the Imperium. He watched over the Eye of Terror for a thousand years, and was a duelist without equal, killing hundreds of Chaos Champions during the Siege of Terra, and only dying against a Chaos empowered Abbadon after Sigismund had slightly aged after a thousand year long life

[tribal nest]

Didn’t know Sanguinius made cheap clothing

[fickle bluff]

Leman Russ. He's a good boy.

[opaque raven]

How often does the Eye creates problems?

[tribal nest]

Yes

[wet storm]

He did my boi Magnus so wrong 😦

[opaque raven]

Sweet lord...

[wet storm]

It's the autobahn from hell

No speed limit

[tribal nest]

Given the Eye of Terror literally split the galaxy in half, I would say it does occasionally cause issues.

[opaque raven]

Rogal Dorn was crazy cool

[wet storm]

Royal Dorn is my favourite character in the Emperor's TTS parody

[tribal nest]

https://tenor.com/view/rogal-dorn-gif-21007855

[wet storm]

It was not kek, it was CRINGE FATHER

[tribal nest]

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer-warhammer40k-rogal-rogal-dorn-dorn-gif-20946436

[fickle bluff]

Magnus is a wussy. Destined for greatness, forced to be blue bird's playtoy by his own shortsightedness and impatience.

[opaque raven]

Oh, vampires, ok

I wasn't truly expecting vampires

[wet storm]

All the emperor had to say was "The wall is here to stop the daemons red boi cut it out"

[wet storm]

Every legion has a mutation curse thing like the clans in Vampire the Masquerade

Blood angels are vampires

[tribal nest]

Except for the Night Lords

Weirdly enough

[wet storm]

Salamanders are pitch black with red eyes

[opaque raven]

I'm reading about one called Abhorash

[wet storm]

Ultramarines are smug and arrogant

[fickle bluff]

All Magnus had to do was not make the monkeypaw deal with Chaos to save his sons

[wet storm]

Space Wolves are destined to run the internet as they are all furries

[worthy ivy]

you sir, you are missing your regulation astartes debuff!
choose your horrific gene mutation!

[tribal nest]

I wouldn’t really call that a curse, that’s just the chapter culture

[opaque raven]

Whats the difference between a space marine and UltraMarine?

[fleet rune]

PERFECTION

[opaque raven]

Live stuff lol

[wet storm]

True true, in the Deathwatch TTRPG that's their chapter weakness

[tribal nest]

All Ultramarines are Space Marines, not all Space Marines are Ultramarines

[tribal nest]

Wait really?

[gentle mortar]

saw it yesterday, so funny

[slate idol]

i'm Piratesoftware and so is my wife.

[uneven salmon]

I love it

[wet storm]

Yes lol

[fickle bluff]

Alright folks, it's official.

WE ARE ALL THOR!

[wary drift]

https://tenor.com/view/guardians-of-the-galaxy-gotg-groot-we-are-groot-sad-gif-12241875

[fickle bluff]

This title is deeply hilarious

https://tenor.com/view/wheeze-wheeze-laugh-nikkal-kundhal-nikkalkundhal-gif-23223780

[teal oak]

I've missed the drama that's coming at Thor now, anyone have a recap?

[fluid dome]

Morning nerds

[wary drift]

"What do you MEAN I must want to poison it?! I'm on fire dude, why do you think I asked you to direct me to your nearest river or well?"

[wet storm]

Wait, sorry, it's something about honouring the codex

I'll have to check it but I remember overconfidence being part of it

[wet storm]

LOL

[worthy ivy]

not only can he make people think things they don't think by just saying his opinions, I heard Thor once used a time machine to back in time and take a couple rifle shots on a grassy knoll in Dallas...
...and he stole Christmas from the Grinch after the Grinch had already stolen it...

he's simply the most powerful man in existence bar none 🙂

[lament kayak]

w8, milhouse did what now?

[worthy ivy]

easy:

[wet storm]

PRATTLING GNOME

Wait that's Wilfred Fizzlebang

I got gnomes mixed up

Fantastic racism

[opaque raven]

What actually happens when you are banned from a channel on twitch? Like, is it just that you can't write on chat or you can't even watch the stream?

[idle hill]

this explains perfectly what is going on, thanks

[fluid dome]

This is going in my out of context collection

[idle hill]

You can still watch the stream. If you get banned from enough channels, you get ultra banned, which is where your account gets nuked off the face of the earth

[wet storm]

Microwaved

[fluid dome]

Haha its 28°c

End me

[wet storm]

Reduced to atoms

[worthy ivy]

getting up to 30 here - might even get a bit hotter, not a cloud in the sky

[opaque raven]

It's 20 here and I'm melting.....

[worthy ivy]

pint in the sun with a smoke time methinks

[wary drift]

A hopefully simple, accurate and mostly unbiassed summary:

SKG is a movement by an American dude who organized with some people in Europe to try and start a new legislative discussion in the EU government that they hope would stop companies from pulling things like what happened with The Crew. Stuff like making singleplayer games require an online connection and then just shutting down the servers and stopping people from playing, with some related issues also in Multiplayer games, etc.
Thor pointed that the way the intitiative is presented in the document, and the attitude of some of the people in charge towards making it go forward raised massive concerns where this could be misshandled, and create massive issues for developers in ways that people without firsthand experience in game development couldn't foresee.
Thor also said some heated stuff about it on stream, probably due to being riled up by some backlash/harassment about it at the time, but then dropped the topic and never talked about it again for 10 months.

Then 10 months later, SKG publishes an update about how they're at the 11th hour of the intitiative, have less than half the required signatures, and followed it by dedicating about half the time of the update to finally making an official direct response to Thor's criticism from 10 months ago.
A lot of people who watch this appear to have no sense of time, don't understand that Thor could have had a kid in the time since he last adressed this, it's been so long, and went rabid at how awful he was for his heated words, and how he's totally wrong about the movement because the movement doesn't actually intend to do all the stuff Thor warned could be a consequence of the intiative if not handled with utmost care.

[worthy ivy]

is the sun past the yard-arm yet?

[idle hill]

60f currently, high of 80. Not too bad.

[worthy ivy]

eff it, it's 5'o'clock /somewhere/

[hazy storm]

I woke up this morning to see a reddit post about some dude claiming to have tested Heartbounds DRM and found problems with it. And bragged about his subsequent ban on the steam forums as proof Thor is evil.

Never mind that his initial analysis was wrong (thor even corrected him)

[opaque raven]

Oh, so...hmm...that's not a huge deal

[fluid dome]

PoV: You're arguing with an astrophysicist about Space

[opaque raven]

I thought it would be possible to stop someone from watching you. But thn again it's silly since anyone without an acc can see anything anyway

[hazy storm]

Did he? He never mentioned that part in his reddit sob story

[idle hill]

Nah you can watch twitch without an account iirc but some streams, like Thor's, are encrypted, so I assume no account no access

[wary drift]

On a mostly unrelated note, I finally remembered what it was that kept bugging me in the back of my head. What it was that this reminded me so badly, but I couldn't quite put my finger on.

The Great Leap Forward.
Like, a lot of the criticism against Thor, feels a lot like people being mad at a critic of Mao Ze Dong, and telling the critic to shut up, because clearly Mao is knowing what he's doing. He's getting rid of a lot of invasive birds that harm plant growth, and is bringing in the best experts from allied Russia. China is clearly going to be swimming in food, and Mao is doing all that can be done to feed the people...
Except where killing the birds made the insect population skyrocket, and the best experts of Russia had no idea how to grow shit in the completely different biomes of China.

||See? It doesn't always have to come back to Hitler guys! Sometimes internet arguments can devolve to be about Chairman Mao too!||

[worthy ivy]

it's the any%banned speedrun (confused run) where you spew a bunch of crap to get banned but delete it and then have to do an extra "confused why I banned" lap before you can post your time

[hazy storm]

Yes

[worthy ivy]

bloody hell, passive agression is strong in this one 🙂

[idle hill]

He can clown about it in the ban appeal

[hazy storm]

Its the correct thread though

That's the review this guy references

[idle hill]

he did yeah. He's shown receipts for a lot of the things he's talked about this stream because so many people are begging for evidence

[spice dome]

then why did you tune to the channel?

[idle hill]

just like the people that come here saying they've never seen any of the hate towards thor

they genuinely see insults, threats, or encouragement to self harm as valid criticism, even after being told it is not

[nova bough]

god my kitty Charon is small and cute. i think he was the runt of the litter

[fickle bluff]

the hell is "xcancel.com"?

[spice dome]

a void

[gentle mortar]

Check DM

[nova bough]

hes not a full void, he has small patches of white on his belly

[idle hill]

no embed, I'm madge

how dare you make me open twitter to see what Thor said

understandable, have a nice day

[hasty grail]

try fxtwitter

[jolly sky]

Encrypted...?

Maybe you mean a different term?

[tribal nest]

No Encrypted is the right term. I don’t know how exactly it works, but I use an alternate Twitch Player extension on Firefox, and each time I open Thor’s stream, it says the stream is encrypted and that I need to watch it on the regular player

[jolly sky]

Also to follow up on this, a streamer can choose an option so that a banned person cannot watch the stream too

[jolly sky]

Maybe that's an issue with the recent switch over to AV1 and the alternate Twitch player can't handle that

[split tulip]

I think this is more likely. cause there is nothing to hide, you can watch the stream without being logged in just fine

[opaque raven]

Oooohhh, that's better

[split tulip]

blocking alternate clients is probably part of their anti-adblock system

[jolly sky]

Yea it's not like, "encrypted", ya know something like an encrypted file

[split tulip]

I'd guess it's suppsed to say encoding

[tribal nest]

Yeah, I don’t know why they say encrypted, but it is the exact phrasing they use

[jolly sky]

Yea that's uh, not the correct term lmao

[pseudo grove]

never stop getting surprised how every community has its own echo chamber bubble but luckily the law and common sense is above it

[flint sinew]

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/interesting-are-you-sure-hmmm-ryan-reynolds-deadpool-gif-16768033426439603915

[gentle mortar]

[jolly sky]

Currently pictured, Max meowing up a storm 'cause he's not allowed to leave the house, Vet appointment for him today

[worthy ivy]

I'd say something interesting here but I can't be heard over all these echoes... what is it they are saying? what message do these echoes carry to my sound-holes?

oh no, I can hear the echoes now, they're saying "do your own research and think for yourself"

nooooooooooooo have been brainwashed..... help!

[livid path]

There is no such thing as a worthless Fox

They’re all perfect

[pseudo grove]

🗣️ stay frosty

[open isle]

Amazing

[shy mist]

Anyone has a link to an extensive post or video from an experienced software dev that agrees with Pirate Software on the difficulties related to implementing what SKG asks for?

I have been looking with various terms and found nothing, only disagreement

[worthy ivy]

always

[pseudo grove]

exactly, may be a big coincidence? jeje

[hasty grail]

because actual devs might be under various NDAs or other contracts that limit on what they can or cannot post on social media?

[jolly sky]

Well if it helps, someone else who agrees with Thor, Chet Faliszek; (someone who has had vast experience in the game dev scene working for Valve)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LbwYHZJ1PY&feature=youtu.be

(And this person has also received threats and harassment from members in the SKG crowd)

[spice dragon]

Most people just jump on the thor hate train for attention Bet most of them even don't know what this is all about

[pseudo grove]

when I have a moment I will check it, nice you found one to see what he has to say

[summer night]

see im just amazed noone talks about Video Game History Foundation

https://gamehistory.org/

[idle hill]

But the pretty words representing the initiative must be what it's all about... right?

The title is everything, right?

[split tulip]

I imagine most devs would be terrified of becoming a target for the mob by speaking out, if they agreed publicly

[worthy ivy]

"safer streets and crime control" has entered the chat

[jolly sky]

Yes, not only that, but the devs in those companies are likely going to be under an NDA, and any attention brought to the company as a result of them talking about SKG would likely end in them being fired

[worthy ivy]

it would clash with a boilerplate social media policy

[split tulip]

yeah it's kinda hard to have a discussion when one of the major groups affected can't voice their concerns, out of fear of retaliation

[outer cobalt]

Generally speaking detractors have been saying that SKG is meant to be provocative, not prescriptive but they seem to not understand what proposal even mean in the context of a petition

[outer cobalt]

Well since the petition itself is expected to fail, they just need to wait until the entire thing falls apart on its own

[pseudo grove]

Harassment and death threats are completely unacceptable .
However, widespread and legitimate dissatisfaction is really understandable , especially since Thor has objectively misrepresented SKG, though he is unlikely to admit any fault in that regard.

[outer cobalt]

He didnt.

[jolly sky]

Hard to get an actual well represented idea of what SKG actually wants when it uses vague and imprecise language

And also vastly underestimates the complexities of not only game design, but also Copyright and IP law.

[outer cobalt]

Folk that support SKG tend to not be senior game devs or have worked in the industry for a long time. Thats not your fault

[dusky grove]

He had questions and an interpretation on something with vague wording.

He wouldn't have misinterpreted it if it wasnt vague

[outer cobalt]

But you cant say that valid criticism is not valid because you want to believe in a religion

[fluid dome]

You...cannot...misrepresent...something...that....is...poorly...worded

[dusky grove]

As much as the skg crew want to claim that vagueness is a strength, it leads to misinterpretation

[hasty grail]

Umbra, you can in the form of:
"waffles are great"
oh you hate pancakes

[outer cobalt]

It seems that senior game devs are instead waiting for the whole thing to die on its own

[fluid dome]

Actually I hate both, nerd

[jolly sky]

We've seen an almost never ending amount of supporters for SKG here and across the Internet not even know what it wants so 🤷

[outer cobalt]

While so called devs who support SKG because they use the gimmick are unable to even support it via their own platform

The silent majority can only upvote thors video on the topic

[shy mist]

A little underhanded to say "senior devs" for people potentially on your side of the opinion that have not spoken and "so called devs" for the others, no?

[outer cobalt]

Thors video has in fact ratioed the SKG movement by a ton

[pseudo grove]

yes he did , is my honest take of it, sorry if bother others, but all of us we have our own conclusion.
I wish him the best, honestly no hate here guys, but I will not be a fanboy from any streamer in my life.
I think we can disagree, is ok, in a respectful way

[outer cobalt]

So which major dev are you referring to

[fluid dome]

major devs

And It's just some dev with a handful of followers

[outer cobalt]

I dont know. Im in the games industry. People think SKG is a stupid streamer fad

Go ahead and link the post so i can read it

[jolly sky]

It's like saying you've "misrepresented" the words written by your illegally drunk friend at 3am

I'd like to see them explain what they think SKG does, rather than just posting a link

[pseudo grove]

Lack of details does not mean is poorly worded or vague.
That is for a valid logical reason, details will be given later. The main idea and its foundation are clear, and it’s important for the initial framework to remain somewhat general. From there, more specific discussions can take place, otherwise is not space for that.

[split tulip]

also I feel like they might have an ulterior motive

[outer cobalt]

Okay, but this still got ratioed

[strong wasp]

It has no limitations on when/what it applies to or even acknowledges there need to be limitations.

[outer cobalt]

Dont know who this is

[jolly sky]

Even the foundation is not clear as it vastly oversimplifies and underestimates Game Design, copyright and IP law. Details need to be given if you're gonna dive into that

[hasty grail]

personally, having an FAQ that tries to narrow the ideas of what was written is kind of poor planning
it means that you expect that there is going to be people who misunderstand what was written and thus you know its worded badly

[outer cobalt]

Its not the lack of details that grind our gears. Its the overbearing, vague, overly open assumption that publishers are out to get you.

Its like saying we should ban immigration from middle eastern countries and then clarifying that you are okay with Arabs. It doesnt make logical sense and you are still a racist

[jolly sky]

The argument of "it's vague for a reason" is nonsense, as there have been vastly more detailed Initiatives that have been put forward and accepted, precisely because it is required

[idle hill]

How's this one

[outer cobalt]

THANK YOU

Please dont equate the inability to communicate as a feature of the proposal

Its a bug

[jolly sky]

Everything that you've been seeing us talk about for however long you've been here

Don't circle the same argument again please

[pseudo grove]

guys I know Thor sounds really logical and right, but pretty words are not always right or valid ,
The SKG initial proposal is clear and has the required direction too, then we can start the conversation to make the law accordingly and modifications if required too

[hasty grail]

mostly potential copywrite issues is my issue as a whole

[strong wasp]

I don't think it is vague. I think it is open ended. As written it would apply to all as-a-service games which is something I think is damaging and don't support. Working out the subset of games such legislation would apply to in the implementation details is too late.

[outer cobalt]

Depending on the variation of the law that passed, launching games in the EU may mean you need to prepare for unexpected lawsuits where you pay for lawyers trying to navigate the topic with judges who dont care about games

[jolly sky]

Copyright.
IP
What happens when a game is forced to shutdown because of intentional outside means?

[outer cobalt]

The SKG words are simply wrong. This isnt about pretty words

Its the inability to communicate like an adult and pretending that using provocative words like a streamer is communication

That doesnt scare you as a game dev?

[hasty grail]

also for the record, i want an SKG movement to occur, BUT as it is currently written i disagree with AS WRITTEN

[outer cobalt]

You dont plan to launch in the EU ig

[split tulip]

example of what happens when the legal system collides with something it doesn't understand and does not have clear guidelines for: https://youtu.be/1-geGEYEw7g

[pseudo grove]

Developers also have inherent rights, they will not be slaves or giving for free their work.
The thing is, people do not want to buy a game and years later do not have access to it... is not fair?

[outer cobalt]

The last thing i want is to be distracted by lawsuits just because i want to shut down a game that didnt perform well while im doing experiments

[round bolt]

So which is it, was it misrepresented or not?

[outer cobalt]

Support modding. Disavow SKG

What the heck?

[hasty grail]

i think the fact that we are arguing about SKG means that there are issues with it in some way

[jaunty vine]

Had a back and forth with someone on BlueSky about it, and I'm baffled and leaving it at where it is currently because they keep saying... That's... The point?

The imprecise and vague language is supposed to be part of the initiative allegedly, because it gives lawmakers the choice to talk about what are issues in this situation. Whereas my argument why that is a horrible idea is that the vagueness breeds uncertainty. Furthermore, it results in situations where it's like "what does functional mean?" And then answering that with that means playable. Getting the login screen isn't playable was their response to one of my examples, when depending on what the legal meaning of playable is it very well could be are my own personal thoughts on the matter.

[jolly sky]

Except, according to SKG, they will be forced to work on/make a single player version of a game that is multiplayer in mind by law

[outer cobalt]

Do you understand what the implications are on game dev? You no longer can run experiments on games that have any sort of online service

Worse, it may force devs into publishers who have the money to fight these lawsuits

[outer cobalt]

They are masquerading the inability to communicate as a feature of the proposal. Thats why Thor wasnt wrong. He called them out for it

[shy mist]

That's not true and it's one of the main misrepresentations that Thor made

[outer cobalt]

Launching a game to test if people like it for 3 months, then shutting it off if theres not enough retention, even if some people play the game

[exotic forge]

I'll agree to disagree on the vagueness and the plan of starting the conversation and praying that the right modifications are made by lawmakers

[outer cobalt]

Like, thats what a typical game dev would do.

[round bolt]

You mean a network test

[outer cobalt]

So what do you expect the law would entail? That single player binaries that previously coded to be online are now…?

[split tulip]

would network tests need to be available in a playable state, after they're shut down?

[strong wasp]

SKG keeps touting 'Loosing access to games you bought', ignoring the fact the initiative isn't limited to 'games you bought' It applies to all online service games. Whether you were 'renting' access to the service, or paid a larger 1 time fee for the client.

[jolly sky]

So tell me how they would make a multiplayer game, designed to be that way, playable without the servers (and without releasing server binaries to the public which would be brushing up against IP and Copyright law)

[outer cobalt]

Worse people are applying it to FREE TO PLAY ONLINE GAMES

[idle hill]

There's a few interpretations of what "playable" could be
But here's two:
1: It refers to only the singleplayer experience. Developers may cut out online content at EOL, causing public outrage when servers shut down.
2: It could be referring to the entire experience, where, either the developer is required to give a way of self-hosting servers, or abandon the game entirely after snipping the online requirement.

[outer cobalt]

No, its a released game

[jaunty vine]

Fantastic example actually, the folks at Odyssey Interactive - guys that made Omega Strikers - actually had open a platform fighter battle royale. It wasn't meant to be a fully released game, more a thought experiment for them and maybe how they wanted to pivot from Omega Strikers/work up inspiration for their next title(s).

They pulled it off Steam because that's all it was, a test. Hell, it doesn't even look like it's going to go further in development there's been naught but radio silence.

[outer cobalt]

Do you understand how game dev companies find the right game to focus on?

[summer night]

alarming

[idle hill]

The fact that it's open ended, open to interpretation, is PRECISELY why people are concerned about SKG

[formal kestrel]

thanks, i hate it

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/hey-gif-4558192938928738138

[pseudo grove]

I understand that, and the point is to be fair, is not take advantage here, so devs will have protections too,
I feel for some is like "devs vs gamers" mentality, I do not see that right, because is a bad way to take it...

[idle hill]

we don't know how legislation is going to interpret it, and it would be naive to expect them to choose the best decision for consumers AND developers

[outer cobalt]

People expect politicians to fine tune the wording for them and do all the heavy lifting of finding all the stakeholders for them, as if its not delegated to the game lobby lmao

[exotic forge]

No no no, you don't understand. It has to be vague and we will trust boomers to make the right decisions with regards to video game development

[shy mist]

This is a mess with everyone making a different point all at the same time 😂

I like the passion tho

[outer cobalt]

See on one hand they claim that the open wording is to protect both sides but when devs say the open wording hurts them, SKG claims that that wont happen

[idle hill]

There are a LOT of people on the internet that haven't heard the phrase "expect the worst, hope for the best"

[worthy ivy]

i think more a worry it will become "lawmakers vs devs"? not customers v dev

[outer cobalt]

Sigh. For a typical game dev shop, folks actually run multiple game experiments quickly to find out a style and game genre they want to focus on

king does it, riot does it, everyone does it

[split tulip]

does the commission know what jpeg is?

[exotic forge]

Guys, I'm really glad Thor made that video debunking what SKG is about. It's quite informative

[outer cobalt]

Live service games are the best at it. Single player games actually need more investment because they lack the social element to generate content

[idle hill]

https://tenor.com/view/king-of-the-hill-jpeg-do-i-look-like-i-know-what-a-jpeg-is-distort-koth-gif-27539179

[jaunty vine]

Who the hell are the commission? Also echoing Disco Option's point, do they even know what they'll be talking about if all they get is vagueness? Do they know what a JPG is?

[worthy ivy]

do they know the difference between client-side and server-side calculations?

[split tulip]

do you really want Hank Hill writing thse proposals for you, or to hand them a nice concise document that explains what you want?

[worthy ivy]

do they know what port-forwarding is?

[outer cobalt]

No, full fledged games

[jolly sky]

So imagine this scenario.

A multiplayer live service game you like is being intentionally DDOS'd by outside means, and can no longer support itself, either due to the game being unplayable directly because of the DDOS, or they're paying so much money that it now has to shut down the game.

Now it is, by the terms of SKG, unplayable.

Now what? Under SKG, the devs are now forced to make it single player, or are now forced to do the work to make their game "playable". Which costs money. Money that they just lost hand over fist because of the DDOS'ing. Or to legally to hand over their work to the public because some people were intentionally DDOS'ing a game?

[outer cobalt]

Im not faulting you for not knowing how the industry works

[worthy ivy]

do they understand the difference between source code and compiled executables?

[idle hill]

He'll just turn it into something that'll sell propane and propane accessories better somehow

[outer cobalt]

But this is an important part of how game dev companies survive

[worthy ivy]

can they be trusted to find their own arse with an atlas? /j (sort of)

[shy mist]

The job of the commission is to talk with representatives of at least both sides of the issue. The industry will have more than a fair chance to say "actually, if any of this is implying that we have to turn multiplayer games into Singleplayer games, that's absurd". Which the other side obviously also agrees with and it was never at all mentioned that way

[exotic forge]

Alright that settles it! While the spirit of SKG is noble, we cannot support it at its current iteration. Try again next time Ross

[jaunty vine]

Bro, the little battle royale Odyssey Interactive pushed out and pulled as an experiment was for all intents a game by anyone's standards. Yes it was a test, it was an experiment that would absolutely get caught under fire as a game in some scenarios with SKG as it is now.

[outer cobalt]

I think ultimately it shows that people simply dont understand how the bureaucracy works

[pseudo grove]

So the solution is to ignore the issue and leave everything as it is? I think that approach will only lead to bigger problems down the line, far worse than asking developers to take reasonable steps to keep games in a functional state.

Imo a balanced, proactive solution is better than inaction. Otherwise, this is sadly a time bomb

[outer cobalt]

Support modding and the right to repair for games

[worthy ivy]

no the solution is to think of something slightly different that works to the same end in a smarter way

[jaunty vine]

What part of any counterargument is it being put forward that we leave all as is? I won't speak for others, I want clarity in what the heck is wanted because it would lead to less headaches going forward.

[shy mist]

Brother, I would love modding and right to repair. But that's a much more ambitious ask and I don't think you could even have it without the end-of-life plans on the same vein as SKG anyway. Could you?

[jaunty vine]

Frankly this gets my seal of approval.

[outer cobalt]

You and them are both completely unaware of how the world in general works. Sorry.

[split tulip]

you could speak to respectable studios like Larian beforehand or you can let the commission pick some for you. like EA, Ubisoft and Activision and have them speak for the game dev side

[pseudo grove]

may be a good one, will calm gamers a lot, for sure

[round bolt]

Chat will be in for a rude awakening when they learn about the abundance of law makers with no knowledge of the industries currently filled with regulations

[jolly sky]

Come back with a better worded, or a simpler attempt an an Initiative.

If instead, SKG was about the removal of online Log-ins for Single Player games, that would have seen universal praise and approval

[exotic forge]

It's fine. We cannot expect Ross to fully think it through. It was a swing and a miss with the current SKG iteration. Perhaps next time, he will think of a better plan

[outer cobalt]

Thats not ambitious. The fact is you cant even support EOL games as a community because the EU disallows modding copyrighted content

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/knuckles-approved-gif-27640148

[outer cobalt]

Publishers are not to blame here. Self publishing Game devs will make the same decisions

you sell to a publisher because you didnt want the responsibility of managing your game

[jolly sky]

Except the very real risk that SKG could end in, is developers losing the Rights to their OWN WORK.

[worthy ivy]

it's kind of a coin-flip where EU consumer protection is concerned - sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong - but when it's wrong it's /really/ stupid

[idle hill]

Speaking of modding, I'm working on a modpack right now to try and get an idea of what I want to make as a dev. I should post something about it somewhere in this server.

Trying to get mod suggestions for 1.20.1 fabric, but I don't know all Fabric has to offer for this version.

[jolly sky]

It's really, really not. SKG is diving headfirst into Copyright and IP law and it doesn't even realise it

[split tulip]

being legally forced to allow private servers would mean the developers lose rights. you no longer control it

[hasty grail]

whats the SKG bit on "no connection to the publishers"? thing

[idle hill]

B-but they say in the mission statement that's not their goal!

[hasty grail]

that sounds like potential issues with copywrite and ip ownership

[pseudo grove]

well, that helps but honestly online games also deserve the right to keep them alive imo, like for example let customers run their own local/community servers

[split tulip]

and what if devlopers later want to release their game in some way. do they now have to compete with private servers of their own game?

[jolly sky]

Which is then is diving into IP and Copyright law

[dusky grove]

Yknow. The fact that we can't even agree whether something is or isnt included in skg is a sign that its too vague to move forward

[idle hill]

Someone pointed out I think in Thor's initial video that TF2 used player hosted servers for 4 years before they finally added official servers

[jaunty vine]

Okay so hold on, so I get this straight. This EU Commission would get the consumers, or their legal representatives, and publishers in the same room to discuss this? And now all of this vagueness is out in the open for publishers - both good AND bad - to twist this in any myriad of fashions they want to see what they can get away with?

That sounds crabbing DANGEROUS, and only makes me double down that this needs to be more clearly written.

[jolly sky]

Dude, those two things are intertwined. How is that an assumption

[exotic forge]

I feel like you and I are the only level headed ones appreciating the facts of the matter in chat right now

[split tulip]

how could it possibly not affect IP? any alternative I've seen mentioned would have an affect of copyright or other IP

[jolly sky]

That's like trying to change the laws of Electrical wiring without expecting to have to go through Health & Safety Law

[idle hill]

I'm more worried about what the hell SKG actually thinks devs should do to "preserve" them
if it means just ceasing development that's not enough for them because there are many that require an online account for basic function

[jolly sky]

They literally are, as a result of the methods that they want to make the games "Accessible"

[pseudo grove]

the success of a new game is not because gamers cannot play the old ones, don't you think?

[earnest cove]

Counterpoint about using VPN for gaming. It's required when

1. My dumb country (Malaysia) decided the best routing will give me 2k ping
2. The server for some reason completely blocked Malaysian ip address. I had to use VPN to play multiplayer wargroove at one point

[jolly sky]

Tell me how

[split tulip]

that is inside the realm of IP. about what things you can or cannot do with your services

[shy mist]

Wait so do you know an alternative to this process other than keeping the status quo and not talking about it in a place where it could bring changes ever?

[pseudo grove]

if you mention about being the same game? so when the game is alive, only official server is allowed, only when game is killed is then released to public the server binaries files, for example lets say

[fickle bluff]

And who's gonna moderate those servers? Who's job will it be to make sure that a "safe environment" is created and maintained for players? Who's gonna take legal and PR risks when a disaster inevitably happens?

[jolly sky]

Which....is also going to inevitably talk about copyright and IP law. You see how all these arguments are going to end up in that discussion whether Ross, SKG knows that or not?

[jaunty vine]

Where did I say it shouldn't be used? I want it more clearly written, I did NOT say to give up altogether. I did not claim I do not support keeping games alive as an artform, I however don't see any reason to support SKG as it stands.

My word, I say something and the very twisting of interpretation that I mention in the very post I made is being attempted.

[split tulip]

these things don't happen at the same time. the game might end and years later they the IP to a new company, which releases it. can the new company tell private servers to shut down? if not, that will likely affect the negotiation

[jolly sky]

Alright then, have a good one

[shy mist]

Not attempting to misrepresent, I just wasn't sure what you meant. Sounded to me like you didn't trust the process so it's good you clarified it wasn't that

[jolly sky]

Well you're ignoring a fundamental talking point that SKG will be diving into, which is Copyright and IP law, and refuse to engage with it so, oh well

[split tulip]

maybe we should ask Khronos to do a "copyright and IP law 101" stream

so everyone can agree on the baselines

[pseudo grove]

Well, that’s a fair concern, but that's why the framework could include specific conditions, like for example If the IP is transferred years later, the new company would need to understand that they’re acquiring an asset with certain legacy conditions attached. The thing about IP will need to be checked well and see all these situations, I am not a professional into that topic honestly.

[round bolt]

See the problem with the bar set for discussion is I could just fail to elaborate while repeatedly sending this image

[hasty grail]

does not seek, yet will impact in some way

[round bolt]

yeah thats a slop video

[jolly sky]

Yes, there is misinformation about how IP and Copyright law will absolutely play into the conversation that SKG wants. And if it isn't prepared for that, its going to 100% fail regardless of how many people support it.

[split tulip]

I don't see how they could leave it in a playable state, without affecting those

[fleet meadow]

against hate

[pseudo grove]

I am not sure about confirm that will be 100% failure, considering the discussion did not start yet

[round bolt]

Do you think a playable state means you can do every single thing but with no other players?

[fleet meadow]

if it was dislike

i wouldnt care

[shy mist]

Gotta say, I think the IP and Copyright part is the aspect that seems the most interesting to dig into. The rest I really can't fathom how much importance they are being given in the context of signing this initiative

[split tulip]

I don't know. imitative doesn't specify so all we can do is speculate about possibilities. but all possibilities I can think of would impact IP

[round bolt]

YT dislikes dont mean anything

they count as engagement

[worthy ivy]

'one engagement please' 🙂

[pseudo grove]

the **reasonable ** part is really important

[jolly sky]

Considering that neither the words of the movement itself, or Ross brings up anything about that future conversation, it doesn't look good for it.

Once again, SKG is a massive oversimplification of not only Game Design, Copyright and IP law. And it seemingly refuses to engage with the two latter parts, and just assuming that it can be done with the "flick of a switch"

[fickle bluff]

If it's really presumptuous and misinformed, and you seemingly know better, then please, by all means, educate us. Personally, I'd very much like to get an explanation that'd put these silly concerns of mine to rest.

[fleet meadow]

so you think videos like this should exist? Videos that actually make people hate him?

[fluid dome]

Well if the games aren't made available, it will just boost piracy anyway so

[pseudo grove]

gamers do not want to own IPs or copyright, neither the government.
so that will be solved imo, in good manner

[worthy ivy]

"you should hate Pirate Software" does kind of come across as inciting hate - just a little bit...

kind of, you know, definitionally

if that's a word?

[fluid dome]

As a treat

[split tulip]

government is the one that passes copyright law. and historically it's not been great at it (DMCA)

[dire burrow]

Do not tell people to mass report other people.

[cold glade]

Related to this, has there been any discussion or FAQ item about what the enforcement mechanism would look like? Not just legal incentives/penalties but where the window for enforcement would fall and who would be liable. Very different to advocate for enforcement on game release vs enforcement on game "death". (I understand its an initiative, not a law)

[jolly sky]

For some games. you cannot do what SKG is proposing, without the transferral of IP and Copyright to the individual.

And making that Legally enforceable is not the right way to go about it.

[exotic forge]

It's quite funny that this individual is not concerned at all about the video inviting hate on Pirate Software but rather someone reporting the video

[pseudo grove]

If I say "you are wrong, eat my entire ass", is normal to expect hate, that's why I think he was not smart doing that

[fleet meadow]

dont you think this video deserves to be taken down?

[dire burrow]

What I think does not matter. Tell people in our community to mass report something is against our rules.

We do not hate brigade anything.

[fleet meadow]

ok, i understand, sorry

[exotic forge]

Alright this is getting SUS now. These 2 individuals are now siding with a video titled to hate on Pirate Software

[split tulip]

You know the rules, and so do I

• Rick Astley

[fleet meadow]

not hate against him

[round bolt]

[shy mist]

I really want to know, please if you can, could you make this easy on me with as simple an example as possible?

[round bolt]

"not your personal army"

[pseudo grove]

u think is any way possible to protect IP and Copyright , and at same time let gamers keep their games alive?
can we try think about that instead of saying why is not possible?

[round bolt]

Losing control of your IP as in accidentally going opensource without the intention of doing so

[exotic forge]

You could not lay a better trap with a video encouraging people to hate on Pirate Software and two individuals in chat are straight up ignoring this call to harass Pirate Software and are defending the video

[shy mist]

Ok thanks. So, whats the potentially losing IP there exactly? That because you gave the binaries willingly, people who reversed engineer them could claim you gave permission of use?

[strong wasp]

Yeah, SKG could have been a limited initiative to not pull the plug on Single Player Experiences with an enforced online component.
When it is broadly applicable to online service games, it becomes not possible.

[jolly sky]

Both of those things come with that risk. The IP comes in the form of the Code (the server binaries) or the assets (The reverse engineering)

[worthy ivy]

a limited initiative to not pull the plug on Single Player Experiences with an enforced online component

I could support this all day every day

[jolly sky]

And therefore, both

[jolly sky]

That literally would have seen universal praise and support

Removing the forced Log-in for auth servers for Single Player games? Golden

[jaunty vine]

To summarize what I know of SKG, or at least this ECI that it's pushing very far:

The ECI wants it so publishers leave games in a functional (playable) state, more specifically so turning off their servers doesn't revoke a player's ability to turn a game on and go.

On paper this is incredibly vague as it doesn't define what is functional - because let's be honest that does change from game to game. From a legal standpoint I at least argue that's terrible and can really only speculate what in the world has to be done to accomplish that.

However this vagueness is supposed to be a feature, not a bug. So an EU commission can get the legal representation of the consumers and publishers to sit down in one room and hash out the details. Which is by design in bureaucracy. Now however we've got a room with lawyers on the consumer side who I sure as heck hope know what we want and will buckle down on it, and lawyers on the publisher side that are going to wriggle around and twist it to how they want. Of course I'm speculating as I don't know how that will ultimately go, nevertheless I don't trust every publisher, good or bad, to want either the consumers or the developers best interests.

And I can really only conclude that this initiative either needs better writing to ensure that's less likely to happen, or it needs to fail outright. Expect the worst, hope for the best. And by the gods, the worst is not good for anyone.

[pseudo grove]

Right, I think is logical to start only with single player games (will be an amazing start), and then try going slowly to multiplayer ones step by step, to reduce friction

[jolly sky]

From the reading and wording of SKG's initiative, it basically wanted to force in a nail with a Hydraulic Press. Like yea, you're gonna get that nail in, but you're gonna damage everything around it at the same time.

[strong wasp]

Yeah, but the initiative doesn't have that limitation. Thus the opposition instead of support.

[split tulip]

something to think about: should a game developer have the right to kill their own game?

Imagine you were a dumb teenager and made an online game full of hateful content. later in life you realize you don't want to associate with it anymore. should you still have to allow people to play it? to have it as a constant reminder of your past self? where does the right of the consumer fit in with the rights of the creator?

[jaunty vine]

Provided as a teenager that you sold the game, the ECI would say no. They want to talk specifically about purchased games.

If it was provided and available for free? Well, that's gonna depend on effects in the future post SKG. As the ECI is currently worded, it shouldn't be affected so dumb dev as teen can kill the game. Key word this shouldn't be affected.

If nothing else is clear on the ECI, it's clear that they specifically mean purchased games. Or games which have microtransactions, albeit that's not worded on there and more a SKG thing.

[split tulip]

if that is their intent, then it should probably be worded that way

[pseudo grove]

Ok, so the moment someone buys something, ownership is transferred, and with that comes a reasonable expectation of continued access, right??. Let me explain:

Imagine a car manufacturer decides to stop producing cars, and then remotely disables or destroys all the vehicles they've already sold. That would clearly be seen as unacceptable.

In the same way, at revoking access to a game that consumers have paid for undermines the basic principle of ownership (customer paid for it).

Discontinuing support is one thing, but removing access altogether crosses a line.

[fluid dome]

At the very least make it illegal to force online in single player only games

It should be opt in

For the consumer

[split tulip]

this is software, not physical product. you don't own it, your purchase a license. steam just started to clarify this too

[pseudo grove]

and that is the issue, people wants to own games, not rent it, because are paying real money for it

[jaunty vine]

I hate this example because it doesn't fit. The analogy doesn't work because it's not the same thing.

Video games are something to experience, not something to use. Liken it to art, as made available in a museum. The museum has it so you buy tickets to view particular pieces of art though whenever you want.

[jaunty vine]

Bud, you don't own the music you buy on a physical CD. The EULA or licensing literally says that.

Same goes for games.

[fluid dome]

also the only reason publishers can get away with shit like this is bc there are no regulatory bodies that will absolutely own them

[pseudo grove]

ok, so if is a license why not telling customer how long will last? like a service or renting

[jolly sky]

And to expand on that and make it even more confusing, you don't own the media on a physical disk either. CD? DVD? Game Disc? You only own the actual physical disc, not the media that is on it.

[jaunty vine]

Where in the ECI is it worded that this is what's wanted?

[round bolt]

Do you know how long you're going to live in your current residences?

[strong wasp]

And you keep going back to the single player scenario to try and get a simple yes, which you imply means 'Then you should support SKG' and ignoring the multiplayer only games aspect that SKG would apply to and is the reason I oppose SKG.

[jaunty vine]

One could give estimates. Estimates could be wrong, and have to be updated. Meaning the EULA has to be updated, meaning you have to keep signing it. Over, and over.

[split tulip]

did Blizzard know in 2004 that WoW would still be going today?

[fluid dome]

Can you imagine if the industry adopted a financial fair play system similar to how European football works? You'd just have to retool and package it for the industry

[jolly sky]

And also, the developers/publishers would have to constantly re-word the EULA every single time they update the game

[pseudo grove]

if suddenly I decide to take something from you without previously agreement, is not fair and for sure will not like it

[jaunty vine]

Meaning they have to pay lawyers money to review it.

[round bolt]

Cool but thats unrelated to the prior points being discussed

[split tulip]

that is what was agreed upon, in the EULA. which you accept to play the game

[jolly sky]

Which is yet more money being thrown at it. Which vastly limits how much money an indie/solo dev could earn, which means less money they have to make the game/keep it running

[jaunty vine]

Sure, in the event it wasn't previously agreed upon. We sign EULAs that generally have that clause.

[round bolt]

To twist that point on its head

Id rather Online only games have a minimum expectancy

[hushed dust]

why the restart?

[split tulip]

I've gotta head out now, but thanks for the interesting chats y'all

[round bolt]

like "Itll be around for at least 5 years"

[jolly sky]

Windows Explorer shat itself

[hushed dust]

ah

[pseudo grove]

Ok, let me ask you. License is a unethical way to sell games, do we agree with that premise?

Because at the end is what we think is ethical and right regarding ownership when we pay for a game.

Is not a coincidence people get mad and suffer when their games they paid are removed.

[jaunty vine]

Technically speaking, if music publishers REALLY wanted to, if a band went under and they don't want us having access to their music anymore, they could recall every physical production of music and send the Pinkertons to collect physical music CDs from us. Note I say this as a joke, and I'm honestly not 100% sure they legally could do that.

[jaunty vine]

No, licensing is not an unethical way to sell games.

That's literally how Steam works and how multiple industries work.

[round bolt]

I dont agree with the premise. I would agree the liscensing nature should be in huge inescapable font for people to read.

[jaunty vine]

If Steam goes under, we literally will lose access to all of our games.

[fringe fractal]

For anyone wondering about watch streaks. As long as he's back within 30 minutes, your streak is safe

[round bolt]

People pay for iTunes and Spotify all the time

and they routinely pull music you like

due to internal ownership issues

[fluid dome]

All you'd have to do is set up an independent governing body that regulates how much money AAA studios can pump into their projects, completely ban mtx in all forms, heavily regulate p2w f2p games, and actually mandate AAA to support and uplift grassroots and indie studios?

That is an industry I'd be glad to advocate for.

"You'll get less games that way!!"

GOOD.

If forcing the industry to adopt a better system of producing games leads to higher quality, cheaper experiences then I am all for dragging the industry kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[round bolt]

The issue is making the lack of direct ownership VERY WELL KNOWN

[serene valley]

The 21st century is how they work now

[fickle bluff]

Car manufacturer is not held accountable for every accident on the road, bar those 'caused by manufacturing defect. Developer/Publisher is held accountable for every and all incidents in their game (Little Timmy bullied by bad players into walking out the window). Hence games, specifically online games, are sold as a licence, so that dev can remove bad actors by revoking their licence (ban). If those games were sold as a product, there'd be no way to do that, 'cause removing access to a product would be kinda illegal.

[jaunty vine]

I want game devs to make more money, work fewer hours, and take longer to release their games.

AND I'M NOT KIDDING.

[round bolt]

or fundamentally restructuring the whole thing

[shy mist]

A lot of trying to discuss how things work now but I'm curious, who here would prefer to fully and permanently own/have access to the games they buy and who is happy with the unclear time license model? (Not saying that's what the initiative is about, just to know what are people's values here).

Fire emoji for fully own, Heart emoji for license of use

[round bolt]

and that ones a lot less likely

[spare topaz]

you dont own the words on the page of any book - the blurb on the first page explicitly makes that clear. You don't own the content of your dvd - the blurb on the box makes that clear. Even if you owned the physical boxset of a game, you still only own a licence; ownership of a product does not confer ownership of the intellectual property therein. There is functionally no difference between a steam download and a physical copy - eventually both will become unplayable for different reasons

[serene valley]

If anything people want it to go back to how it was in the 20th century

[pseudo grove]

Ok, a lot of customers disagree. That's why we are here having this chat now.
Imagine I love a game but I am not buying it because I do not agree with "get a license" and not owning it.
Is that not affecting massively to customers rights to get games? considering license is getting a massive common practice nowadays

[serene valley]

Also, no mtx = cheaper experiences? Doubt it

[round bolt]

I would hope nobody is arguing that they LIKE the model where youre liscensed to use a game until it shuts down

[jolly sky]

Licensing is the way to make it so that people can actually buy, and play/listen to/watch media.

If that wasn't a thing, everyone would have the individual rights to everything they buy, which means that the Artist/Film maker/Developer/Studio now no longer owns that game/movie/music, and cannot make a sequel, advertise, merchandise, etc ANY of their work.

[round bolt]

its due to the fact that it costs money to keep it up?

[serene valley]

I doubt anyone likes that

[round bolt]

and thats kind of not set in stone

[fluid dome]

If there is anything that this half a decade and last decade have proven is that publishers have no shitting idea what the consumers want.

Nobody wants another boring ass lootbox hero shooter slopfest. I am so tired of rushed and underbaked games. It is so ass.

[round bolt]

It being phrased as a stance people are taking is wild

[jaunty vine]

Well I mean they technically could but they still don't own the rights to it so it becomes terribly difficult to make money on it when LITERALLY ANYONE AND EVERYONE is your competition.

[round bolt]

its not a stance its a structure of how those projects function

[pseudo grove]

the analogy is not correct, when I buy the book is mine, if someone take it from me, is stealing.
One thing is intellectual property, other is the good itself.

[earnest mirage]

this. Even with old games, you think you physically own. You own the physical media and have a license that tells you what you are allowed to do with the media that is on it.
e.g. create no copies

[fluid dome]

God I can't wait for the inevitable crash I'm so fr rn

[round bolt]

Unless its an amazon kindle book

[prime crest]

They definitely do not care what consumers want unless it benefits them

[round bolt]

they change the cover with or without your consent

[fickle bluff]

Online games must be licenced, otherwise devs cannot remove bad actors (cheaters/assholes/etc.).

Singleplayer games - I don't really care. If publisher is an ass and cuts off my access to a singleplayer game, I'll just pirate it.

[spare topaz]

"Copyright <company, year>, all rights reserved" - ever seen that on anything?

[jolly sky]

No it isn't. If you chose to reprint the book with those exact words, you'd get sued by the publisher/author.

[fluid dome]

The solution is to jailbreak amazon products.

[gritty tartan]

what happened to the stream?

[spare topaz]

windows exploded and thor's restarting

[jolly sky]

That is true, and also without licenses, it means that the original creator could not sue a person copying their work.

[gritty tartan]

oh god

[lament sun]

thor's streaming pc Windows decided to update in the middle of it all

[round bolt]

windows moment

[prime crest]

potentially ddos attack against thor (joke)

[jolly sky]

Explorer.exe refused to do the EXE.

[lament sun]

nah

[pseudo grove]

because the law let that happen, does not mean is right , is the same point I did before.
When I buy a game and then I cannot access it, or was removed from me, practically has same effect as stealing, but legally

[lament sun]

put a ./s or reddit users will belive you're serious @prime crest

[idle hill]

Here's an interesting question: What would happen if I were to theoretically rip off that first page
Would it still be okay? Or would the act of ripping off that page infringe on some watermarking rights
What if I wanted to resell the book?
What if I wanted to read that book to someone online?

[round bolt]

The point I keep making is you chose to pay for things that arent fully in your control

[spare topaz]

does that also apply when hardware manufacturers stopped making dvd drives as standard on pcs? a lot of modern pc's have on means to use physical media. That stealing too?

[pseudo grove]

how can be a choose when almost all games are under license?

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/plankton-spongebob-squarepants-correct-band-geeks-gif-7119495535853354586

[jaunty vine]

It's not almost all games, it is all games.

[round bolt]

This exciting new medium called Physical Media

[jaunty vine]

The difference is if you have the copy in physical form or online.

[fluid dome]

I do not need a mediocre call of duty game every year, I promise you

[earnest mirage]

you will never really own the games. What you will get is sort of a royalfree licence (excluding commercial usage) after it's EoS.

[round plover]

did something crash? or was it an unforseem consequence?

[fluid dome]

Windows shat the bed

[jaunty vine]

It's not really royalty free licensing. It's... Just, licensing. XD

[rustic lion]

but that requires REAAADDDIIIIINNNNGGGGGG

[jovial sandal]

Windows being Windows

[jaunty vine]

Which is a skill we have and fail to use.

No I'm not calling myself out for not reading EULAs myself, shush!

[idle hill]

Here we go - so long as you don't resell or redistribute the content, it's perfectly fine for us to modify it

[round bolt]

EULAs getting to the point they are now is also a bit of the problem

[round plover]

wait, is this chat also going on the SKG spiral?

[round bolt]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[idle hill]

is general going off abt it too

[jaunty vine]

It's been in the spiral.

[marsh forge]

so. did thor's windows update kill his windows? the bets are open /s

[hasty grail]

it comes and it goes

[prime crest]

Let that to nintendo lol

[rustic lion]

welcome, it's painful... haha

[jaunty vine]

God don't get me started on that.

[pseudo grove]

no, is not, one thing is someone took from me the game deliberately by design, the other I cannot run it because cannot find a dvd reader

[round plover]

alright, I see. well, back to lurking

[idle hill]

I'm gonna make the pokemon hot anime women and Nintendo can't stop me

[pseudo grove]

usb drives

[upper zephyr]

Did Thor talk about the nintendo story where the guy got his Switch 2 console banned for using the user name "twink link" ?

[prime crest]

Don't they shut down your switch when you do that?

[round bolt]

I have no interent on my ps4

[idle hill]

what switch

[round bolt]

My copy of elden ring is the release one

unpatched

back when radahn was hard

untouchable

like a bug encased in amber

[robust galleon]

Stream is back

[shy mist]

We are one conceptual step away from discussing about the ethics of Piracy on a discord called Pirate Games

[fluid dome]

The industry is now in a state where you as a dev could release another shitty remake at $60 and be lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't want a remake I want new games that aren't dogshit and that actually work and run out of the box without a shitty day one patch. I don't care about preorder bonuses or playing the game 3 days early, I don't care about 8k visuals so detailed I can see the peachfuzz on Aloy, I just want a fairly priced, decently long high quality complete and finished experience out of the box.

It should not be that difficult.

[round bolt]

You'll never catch me making ethical excuses for piracy

[jaunty vine]

Okay, my fiance and I spoke about this. Apparently that's a bit of fear mongering propaganda.

Granted, it's true the wording of the Switch 2 EULA or whatnot does give them the capability to brick your console, it likely is reserved in the case of malicious intent to Nintendo or other Switch 2 owners by way of viruses and stuff.

[idle hill]

"hard"
I beat that thing at level 30 after running into him by accident
admittedly it did take me a few tries

[jaunty vine]

Otherwise in most cases they're more likely to ban your Nintendo account from Switch 2 online access.

[round bolt]

the old old method before having him hit the water was running up the cliffs and he just couldnt reach you

[pseudo grove]

1 book = paid $$$ = single ownership, never said to reprint it or make copies

[fluid dome]

I'm on a rant now and I hate this feeling.

[idle hill]

I fought him vanilla
run around him with a horse

[idle hill]

gorgeous

[jolly sky]

https://tenor.com/view/antonio-banderas-oh-sweet-impressed-not-bad-gif-9592821

[jaunty vine]

Yeah, you own the license as made in physical form. And if someone steals that book from you, they stole your ownership of the license.

[round plover]

amazing

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/imworthit-loreal-snape-hairflip-fab-gif-4797969

[round bolt]

shop that as the meme of the guy with the towel

[hasty grail]

as clean as you can get

[hasty grail]

even better, thanks Maddog

[jaunty vine]

With that said! If the publisher were to revoke your access to the book, whether it's stealing or not depends on the license terms.

[pseudo grove]

buy a license is rent a service without stated expiration date, should be illegal imo

[azure knoll]

Wrow

[idle hill]

huh?

[brisk sparrow]

thanks AI summary

[round plover]

send this to khronos, I feel a new ad screen overlay rising

[hexed sentinel]

np just doing my job

[hasty grail]

hehehehe, ai summary

[earnest mirage]

grok is this real?

[dire burrow]

[azure knoll]

Meeby justice

[idle hill]

if anything I'm more confused from the summary
I know he had to restart the pc

[azure knoll]

[dire burrow]

[fickle bluff]

Too bad, 'cause investors want 500% returns on a dollar, CEO's want extra zeroes on their salary/bonuses and there's a disgustingly bloated layer of middle-management to feed. And they all want it yesterday.

[hard jackal]

[molten hemlock]

[azure glen]

https://www.twitch.tv/piratesoftware/clip/BashfulStylishRaisinRalpherZ-psFY06GU1yxj7VDJ

[fluid dome]

I want to violently and literally launch every investor into the effing sun. I'm so done.

[idle hill]

ok the look on his face is glorious

[jolly sky]

https://tenor.com/view/okay-fine-im-okay-its-fine-oh-shit-gif-5758273

[jaunty vine]

Then that is kinda anti-business. That's being anti having a gym membership if the membership let you go there for life, because it's not clear if or when the gym could go under. Or if you're not prudent on any changes to the contracts that they ask you to sign.

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/kick-knock-out-hurt-ouch-gif-12216186

[hard jackal]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[idle hill]

There's no set end date but there IS a set renewal date
So long as you renew the license, it does not end, unless it is revoked or cancelled*

[jaunty vine]

The heck you mean that's not true? Your book got stolen, your access to the product as detailed in the license (which is generally in the product) has been stolen!

[jolly sky]

Thor has dimensional powers

[jaunty vine]

I shan't demand a proof of negative, and instead encourage looking up copyright law.

[idle hill]

His power is seeping through

[hard jackal]

Confirmed. Based. Canon. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[pseudo grove]

with all respect you are confusing "license" with a "good".
When I buy a book, is a good, I am not renting it

[idle hill]

Theres a secret thor hiding behind the overlay controlling the thor we see, like a puppet

[shy mist]

Is there a renewal date for Fortnite?

[idle hill]

Isn't that a free to play game

[shy mist]

Yeah let's choose a different one. But it isn't free in the sense that you still buy microtransaction stuff that becomes worthless if turned kff

Off

Let's choose a different one. Too complicated

Hunt: Showdown? Pay to enter, microtransactions too

[fluid dome]

Technically it doesn't matter if amazon tells you that you don't own a kindle, because you can just jailbreak it and it's yours forever now

[fickle bluff]

Licencing doesn't inherently mean it is sold. Fortnite, and every other piece of free software, is distributed under a licence.

[serene valley]

What if I don't own one and they tell me I do

[jaunty vine]

There is no conflation of good with license. The good in question is licensed out. Ones access to the good can be revoked because of the license. So the question is, was it revoked justly (due to terms detailed in the license) or unjustly (be it unjust terms in the license or things outside of the license)?

The issue that is being conflated is that the license makes it a rental, which that depends on the wording of the license. And in most cases sure, the licensing of the book doesn't have a set end date, for example. That doesn't change the fact that revisions are going to exist, and in the case of owning a digital copy of a book the wording of the book can change and be updated. Or access to the digital book can be lost if say the publisher goes through a different service than the one the book is being read through.

[pseudo grove]

I agree gaming quality standards are on the floor, I still play mostly old games because that

[fluid dome]

This

[worthy ivy]

i didn't have to jailbreak mine - I never let it talk to the internet itself directly, and only transfer epubs over USB

it's been good

[fluid dome]

I don't think piracy should be illegal but I do think it should be decriminalised

Or at least have exceptions to where its acceptable if the thing your pirating isn't available legally

[pseudo grove]

the problem is the risk to get infected, consumers should not have that risk, for safety concerns is a bad practice, that's why I prefer to buy games

[idle hill]

Fair point. Even then, you're being licensed assets for use explicitly within the game, no?
For the battle pass specifically, you're buying the ability to recieve in-game assets through game progression
If you use an in-game shop to buy a skin, there's probably some asterisk* in there saying the assets may be revoked if the game were to shut down or if you were banned from the servers

If it can go wrong, it will go wrong. I expect or at least anticipate the absolute worst scenario when it comes to legal jargon.

[pseudo grove]

People have a fair feeling that are getting pushed to throw money to a black hole and not owning nothing.
Not only that, the fact at any time and any moment ,without advice, our beloved games can be deleted instantly, is concerning

[jolly sky]

Also put it this way. The license printed on a DVD means that if you mis-use it (like for example, playing a movie in a public venue) Then the studio can take you to court, and if they were feeling particularly mean, they could take that DVD away from you. You will most likely get fined though.

In an online multiplayer video game perspective, you having that license/agreeing to the EULA means that your mis-use (cheating etc) means that the developers can ban you. Without that license/EULA, you could not be banned.

[spice dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/4th-of-july-independence-day-america-usa-united-states-of-america-gif-4320859

[fluid dome]

My issue with that is what if someone wants to mod their game with like cosmetics and such

[shy mist]

Twisting the twist. If you cheat on a game in Steam with Singleplayer and Multiplayer and get VAC banned, you can't use the Multiplayer or aspects of it, but you can still use the Singleplayer

I.... Know that from a friend....

[jolly sky]

That is true, but that is also because those games allowed you to run the game with bots on your own machine. There are a lot of games where doing that is impossible due to its design.

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/eek-gif-10563047704735473677

[fluid dome]

From a friend huh

[earnest mirage]

no one will stop from doing stuff for yourself. (unless it's an online game and this could give you an advantage)
When you bring this thing into a commercial usecase, or create copies using their stuff without permission, you could get in trouble.

[jolly sky]

Well, with single player games? Not a problem, they have no means of proving that you modified the game.

With Online Multiplayer games, especially competitive ones, thats when it gets messy. Let's say in Battlefield for example, what you if you modify every soldier to be bright red or blue so that you could clearly see the enemy at all times?

That's why there are anti-cheats in place that know exactly the size, format etc of each file and will typically not let you join a server that runs the anti-cheat. Either done on a server basis, or built into the game itself

[fickle bluff]

I'm not too familiar with the specific wording, but I'm pretty sure you're not licensed assets, but rather access to the game and it's features. Kinda like gym membership. You get access to the gym and equipment to work out, but you are not allowed to modify it.

[idle hill]

That's what I figured

[shy mist]

Alright, going away for now... I enjoyed the talk about IP and Licenses and stuff. Also I was happy to see that we are all passionate and care about the topic of consumer/dev rights to some extent and wanted to talk with civility about it.

We seem to have our reasons for different choices. Thanks and wish y'all well, have a good evening or whatever time of day it is in your area

[jolly sky]

https://tenor.com/view/jim-carrey-salute-gif-27701630

[idle hill]

I just have a hard time wording it. I understand the idea and the reasons behind it, but the specific wording isn't there.

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/mlem-seal-cute-animal-big-eyes-gif-10002606210418209961

[jaunty vine]

Per most licenses, if the publisher/dev REALLY wants to, they can take you to court over it. Unless they have wording in their license that makes that fair/acceptable use.

In fact, FFXIV is a good example of this. Mods? Bannable, you should not mod PERIOD. However gods know how many cosmetic mods you can find for the game. Every single player runs the risk of being banned for these mods, and Yoshida even plainly said that while some mods aren't malicious, drawing a line in the sand is incredibly difficult and legally a headache and a half to word. So it's just better to outright say no to all mods (this is paraphrased to how I remember the quote, it may not be his exact quote). And yet, unless you're being dumb about it, devs are turning a blind eye to the cosmetic stuff.

[idle hill]

It would be stupid if a company licensed the assets to a consumer, unless it was strictly for use within the software provided to them

Personally, I remove assets I don't like, for example everything in .minecraft->versions->.jar->assets->texts->splash.txt (at least I think that was the path)

I only leave one splash text, and that is "100% Pure!"

A modpack dev removed the entirety of the End Dragon fight
I brought it back because I wanted the dragon's corpse (butcher mod btw)

I think it was Terraria I went in and changed textures

[fickle bluff]

FF14 is a curious example. As it stands, Devs have confirmed they got no way to detect mods in your client on their side. So the only way to get banned is if you somehow expose yourself using them. At which point they'll absolutely destroy you. Or not, 'cause there's a very dark, very nsfw underbelly to the community, that's been running in plain sight for years now.

[hasty grail]

ie some of the race to world firsts on high end raiding

[jaunty vine]

Yeah no I am very aware of this.

[hasty grail]

i think it was Omega Ultimate as one instance

[jaunty vine]

Yeeeeep, and the look on Yoshida's face was that of a disappointed father.

Still I feel the point still stands. It's in the ToS, you're not supposed to do it. People still do it, and face the repercussions for it. Though some people do it and don't and I feel there's a correlation between the folks that just use cosmetic stuff to... Ahem, "enhance" their gameplay experience, to the folks that don't get caught or get punished for modding.

Though I will not forget that people put in-game events using modded content on billboards, TWICE. That's begging to be banned.

[jolly sky]

And even funnier, some people who get away with it because they simply haven't been banned yet, think that they now have the "OK" to modify the game

[idle hill]

Official events using modded content...

[jolly sky]

No, it's just because you haven't been banned yet

[jaunty vine]

Not official, just in-game events. Typically RP stuff.

The one that comes to mind that had the FFXIV community explode, at least the first time, was a beach party RP event. Like yeah cool, we're here to party - WAIT THOSE SWIMSUITS ARE MODDED IN!!!

Like the billboard had shots of characters that were modded.

Big fat messup of a moment.

Other than the ad being taken down, I do not know what came of it otherwise however. So mayhaps the folks hosting the event found they could no longer login. Since y'know, they kinda had plastered on there where their in-game house was and everything...

Again, point being: devs and publishers have the say-so on what is and isn't cool for their games. Mods are complex to word in the agreements, minus the absolutes of yay or nay. And FFXIV is a flat no to mods even though they do not have ways to detect them while devs don't seem to particularly act on cosmetic mods.

[fickle bluff]

Yeah, modding is a difficult subject in context of online games, 'cause of it's wide range of application and potential risks.

[jolly sky]

Yea it's why I brought that up when a random chatter asked why the stream was "encrypted", and offered my thoughts

[fluid dome]

I should get more art of my characters but money

[jolly sky]

It seems I was slightly incorrect, but it also seems something has changed for some 3rd party Twitch Stream extensions to suddenly go "Nuh uh"

<@&362005405901127710> Right here officer

[hasty grail]

random bot?

oh wow, that tripped a lot of channels

[jolly sky]

Yea one of those bots that posts 3 images saying "Such such celebrity is promoting a thing which gives everyone $3000"

[hasty grail]

ah, the fun kind of spam

[worthy ivy]

damnit, they always banned before I can get my £3000 thing...

I want my thing!

[fickle bluff]

It's a conspiracy! Mods want to hoard all the cash for themselves! REEEEEEE!

[worthy ivy]

they grabbing all those free Steam gift cards too I bet

greedy mods 🙂

[frosty mural]

any mods here ?

[jolly sky]

If you need to reach out, make a #mod-ticket

[fickle bluff]

Absolute goblin behaviour! We must uncover the den they're hiding in and politely, yet firmly, "encourage" them to trade their hoard for sliced bread!

[foggy gale]

@thor any interest in a video on the 20+ bot and rmt sites using Nintendos IP for profit in pokemmo?

[jolly sky]

He's not going to see this, even if it was @'d correctly. Try in the stream instead

[frosty mural]

ah just here from Vintage story team and wanted to get a mod foward a message to him 😄

[golden latch]

Welcome and that is the perfect way to

They are very responsive

[jolly sky]

But also, #mod-ticket is not used for sending messages to Thor, best way to do that is in stream

[pseudo grove]

You know chat, I find it quite telling that some developers complain about the extra work involved in preserving and keeping games alive. That attitude reflects a lack of long term consideration for the customer, and a sense of entitlement.

The idea that preservation is optional reveals deeper issues in industry standards, and it's more than clear that many of those standards need to change, by law 👩‍⚖️ or common sense

[frosty mural]

well this would be more of an offer so I guerss ticket would be better than him searching where to reach back to us exactly

[golden latch]

Would you say the same to artists?

[pseudo grove]

if I pay for it, I want to own it, not rent it with none disclosed expiration date, like a paint for example

[golden latch]

Okay then buy from a local store that does that (gog for example) use your money to vote for your wants in the market.

[pseudo grove]

Is a shame gamers we are requesting something that is common sense and fair, gaming industry has being lazy and predatory for so long, enough is enough guys

[timber vortex]

heimdall doing work today

[winter sierra]

Most Gamers are a disease i stg

[golden latch]

Its fine to want those things but incentivizing is better then demanding and mandating

[rotund trout]

Whoot whoot Vintage Story!

[frosty mural]

just sent a mod ticket as well

[fluid dome]

Greetings

[pseudo grove]

GOG (even not all games are there) is not realistically the long term solution, is a patch to breathe a little (and thanks exist), the fact you mention that is again the proof of dev culture to "not care" about game preservation and lack of consideration in good practices from the start

[fickle bluff]

Do you also want to play with cheaters and every flavour of "bad person" there is? 'Cause that's what "owning" a multiplayer game will get you. 'Cause they also "own" it.

[pseudo grove]

is no way to fix that issue? none chance at all?
if is the case, so lets wait 5-10 years to AI fix it, on the meanwhile lets better play old games and emulators on PC + single player games only

[golden latch]

Im an archivist my hobby is literally preserving things but you cant save it all especially if the artist themselves wishes it i know the van gogh pieces he destroyed himself we’ll never see but know about, they hurt but its how life goes. there are so many game prototypes that never get published and yet we dont force them to do so. this is the best way even if this initiative doesn’t succeed show devs you care about this and show them you value it and devs will also value it. Turn that hate into support not vitriol and make them just move away from this. i agree i want more games that i can show my children and grandchildren but this isnt the best way.

[pseudo grove]

Right,
Wondering here, is it any way you may consider like: teach devs from college or documentation or make new tools, to make games to be preserved from the gecko without friction? even if is online? you see a chance on that?

[golden latch]

Do you mean normally online games with server and multiplayer modes?

[pseudo grove]

MMO for example, what do you think? may be possible.. ?

[worthy ivy]

dev tools are often internally developed and proprietary and reused in-house - would need to make those available, and there's potential IP and licencing issues there too

[golden latch]

Mmo servers are quite the undertaking mostly cause of the constant upkeep there isnt a one and done package but it is possible just a butt ton of work especially for an end of life. Just develop the server themselves is a massive undertaking and whole teams are needed even in small mmos and like cone said making dev tools would be the main way in the end.

[pseudo grove]

right, I am old school maybe, but is not maybe an issue that devs (gaming industry involved) are getting used to use easy new/modern tools that are not preservation friendly? what do you think chat?

[golden latch]

And it would make security concerns even worse cause if you know what the devs use you can reverse engineer and make systems that circumvent them in future games (think how fast people mod the creation engine games elderscrolls starfield for example)

[pseudo grove]

right, I agree is complex, you think AI in the next years may help in that backend messy process?

[golden latch]

Those are single player so its fine but multiplayer is really bad like the whole fallout 76 opening

[jolly sky]

LMAO no. If you're relying on "AI" to help with that, you've already lost

[golden latch]

Ai cant program for shit sad to say it hallucinates to much for the rigidness of coding

It cant remember its own variables let alone best practices for bug detection or security

Even efficiency techniques are lost on it

[fluid dome]

Okay, I'm eating food and relaxing. I feel calmer now that I've had that mini rant before

[pseudo grove]

I said next years, like 5-10 years, u still consider AI will not be possible to remove the big hustle?

[golden latch]

People are trying all the time in hopes it can help but its just failing its novelty atm is watch the monkey type on the type writer and watch like an exhibit

[pseudo grove]

i agree now AI is crap, still needs a lot of supervision

[fluid dome]

I feel like I need to point out that AI can't even play legal moves in chess without imagining pieces into existence so I think artists are safe from being phased out

[golden latch]

The progress on the algorithms based on data set is slowing down considerably to so making it “more sophisticated” is not gonna happen soon

Also using ai means any code made would be uncopyrightable for the company

Current us precedent is ai owns the code (output) it makes however like an animal it cant own a copyright or pass on ownership even to its creator

[flat moat]

AI is also not an indicator of quality, something a lot of AI bros like to leave out

[frosty mural]

I hate seeing Pirate that exausted

[fluid dome]

Also I'm reminded of the ending of the 2005 Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Spoilers if haven't seen but)

||in the movie, Charlie's dad who works at a toothpaste factory putting the caps on toothpaste tubes loses his job due to automation, where the machine is able to replicate the process faster and in greater quantities. At the end, the dad gets a better job fixing the machine when it breaks down.||

[dusky grove]

This too shall pass. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next year, but it will pass. Like the cliffs battered by the shore, or the forests' trees. This too shall pass.

[fluid dome]

So like

[fickle bluff]

There'd be nothing to fix. They would "own" the game just as you would. Removing or restricting their access would be just as illegal and immoral as yours.

And just to clarify smth. You're a-ok with every online game being plagued by "bad actors" of every variety for the next god knows how many years only to eventually replace players with AI bots? Am I reading that right?

[fluid dome]

Artists have nothing to fear about AI

Imho at least

I'm already seeing people commission artists to make better versions of art generated by AI so maybe its not all bad

[dusky grove]

NGL all this AI talk the past few years have given me the idea of a power rangers-esque tv show. The evil AI corporation running everything vs a team of creatives

[fluid dome]

Best example of this is a friend of Alpharad had an avatar she didn't know was generated, Alpharad commed an artist to make that avatar as a gift

[fluid dome]

God I love the shit out of power rangers

[golden latch]

The morbidly interesting thing about ai art is it can show you the massive amount of ideas already out there that it knows of meaning you can find the new and innovating ideas.

[fluid dome]

Power Rangers, X men, all of those weekend cartoons for boys they had on Jetix? HELLO?

https://tenor.com/view/power-rangers-mmpr-mighty-morphin-power-rangers-power-rangers-movie-gif-2976149096315421093

[dusky grove]

I do worry. Technology has a precedent of making jobs obsolete. Computers used to be people before they were machines, and phone operators got screwed when that went automatic.

It's, not to my knowledge, not done anything to any creativity focused jobs, but idk

[tight bramble]

So just out of curiosity from a new guy. Who is zultralord?

[golden latch]

!zultralord

[dapper raven]

Zultralord admits he's not a community manager. https://i.imgur.com/OK6rCRr.png

[golden latch]

He is an old chatter and huge donator when thor was a small streamer

His face is a bit badge

[worthy ivy]

Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors

[pseudo grove]

AI I mentioned to help the preservation part, like the workflow automation to preserve games easily, keeping the copyright and all the stuff in order

[fluid dome]

I miss whimsy and wonder, bring it back :(

[golden latch]

Sadly ai is just a common percentage prediction aggregators it cant really make workflow or even follow it normally and at that point making a bespoke application would be needed and that work could just be put into fixing the issue.

[jolly sky]

You can't solve copyright and preservation with "AI". At some point you've gotta stop putting your head in the clouds

[fluid dome]

Copyright and IP is already solved tho??? People are so wild. The Meta is solved.

[jolly sky]

By the time you've waited for an "AI" to generate the correct programming solution, you've wasted more time and money than if you just paid people to do it right the first time around

[golden latch]

The ai most people are using/talking about is just complex algorithms or math rules. That change values based on input so large databases just broaden the values but doesnt mean its any smarter it just seems that way like how math can explain the universe cause it mimics how we understand it but we have been wrong many times even with it

[pseudo grove]

yea, would be nice to open a chat in "slack" (company discord.exe) and then say to the bot "AI preserve this game and compile it now accordingly protecting IP, etc, bla bla", a wet magical dream

[golden latch]

Yeah it would be but you know who could? humans they are very versatile and robust just takes some time to compile

[jolly sky]

I hope that hypothetical future dream never comes about to be honest

[golden latch]

Ai (actual indians)?

[pseudo grove]

outsourcing entered the room

[indigo wadi]

Any unhinged stuff today?

[warm trench]

I hate outsourcing. I wanted to give a developer some kudos, which is rare as the quality it not that good, but corpo told me not to because it would cause rates to increase.

[pseudo grove]

Maybe for now will be the best to make only single games, in order to preserve games easier, is that ok for u all, or u feel creativity is being censored?

[hasty grail]

nothing beyond the norm

you can tell its slowly getting to Thor

[pseudo grove]

QA testers from playstation em emmm cof...cof...

[indigo wadi]

My son is falling asleep in my lap

[indigo wadi]

How so?

[warm trench]

No - it would be like having to eat egg salad sandwiches instead of steak, I want steak but no one will cook steak anymore. Not a creative issue.

[hasty grail]

general fatigue due to all the drama,

the kind of thing that takes longer than a week to recover from

[indigo wadi]

Oh that'd he natural for anyone

[pseudo grove]

is the price for being always right

[warm trench]

I mean, I like a good egg salad sandwich. But steak and egss....

[indigo wadi]

Or standing up for yourself.

It's not a matter of always being right

[hasty grail]

its not being right, its "Thor is a human that does things in this way"

trying to find ANYTHING to get at him while he has to CONSTANTLY defend against EVERYTHING

[pseudo grove]

I met guys like Thor before, the body pay for the mental stress, the extra effort to keep it all under control

[steep surge]

I would have crumbled a loooong time ago
I don't know how he still has enough strength to deal with the twitter posts

[pseudo grove]

but some stuff in life cannot be under control or how we think is, it is what it is

[steep surge]

also hello chat
How are y'all doing?

[hasty grail]

im trying to decide if i want more modded FO4 or BG3

[golden latch]

I mean indies will try the big boys wont but tbf the AAA has been not making things for their audiences for a few years now so thats to be expected and tbh itch is a great place. Id definitely show your (those in the initiative) support and use this as a spring board to teach devs peoples interest in games they can preserve (even if it may cause price increases and delays)

[golden latch]

Great in the cant sleep need to stage

[hasty grail]

act 1 in BG3 and late game FO4

[indigo wadi]

I don't think it's constantly. One he puts it out there, it's simply referencing back to it.

[indigo wadi]

BG3

I'm loving Midnight Suns now that I've progressed further.

[pseudo grove]

AAA trash predatory behavior, it gave a nice market share to indi devs

[steep surge]

hmmmm, I dunno but there might be some cool new BG3 ones? I mean the community loves that game

[hasty grail]

i have the games modded, just trying to figure out what to play

also how to make shadowheart not suck ass

[steep surge]

aww, I hope sleep stops being stubborn soon and you get some good rest!

[steep surge]

ah, well, ehm....you need to buy the demo, obviously. That's always the answer

[hasty grail]

hehehe

[steep surge]

@indigo wadi Henlo, Myke!

[pseudo grove]

for example I do not buy AAA, most of them using unreal engine with TAA without proper manual optimization , so is all blurry, 4k but blurry lol

[fickle bluff]

That is not gonna be possible unless we magically stumble on "true-AI", but scratch that for the moment.

You're ok with online games being infested by cheaters and other kinds of "bad actors" if that is the price to pay for "owning" the game, right?

[pseudo grove]

is not ok a cheater infestation, no one wants that.
better single player games only if is the case

[worthy ivy]

we build a hallucination engine and then train it to hallucinate the right answer 90% of the time

[pseudo grove]

The idea that because is multiplayer is not possible to preserve , I strongly disagree, may be in some cases much more difficult, I can see that

Can be MMO , preserved and not necessarily full of cheaters, must be a way , right guys?

[fickle bluff]

Of course! Devs just need to wave their IP rights and release server binaries, so that everyone can run their own private servers. Easy as that.

[pseudo grove]

I am not an expert in IP rights honestly, someone can give advice here?

[boreal flower]

and potentially watch others make money off their hard work but its not like devs need money for their livelihoods right? /s (just thinking of all those monetized minecraft servers...)

[wet storm]

Someone asked about warhammer and I wrote like 5000 words

[golden latch]

Atm use and “protecting” a ip is the only way to keep an ip so releasing binaries and having others use the dev tools to make and use their assets lessens the hold of the ip and then it can be disputed that it is becoming public or another separate ip.

[fickle bluff]

Going back to that.

So you are ready to sacrifice "online games" as a concept and just play singleplayer games forever?

[golden latch]

If the rules were changed to make it able to release or outlet an ip but hold the rights this would be fine but atm its a danger for any company to allow this for their longevity

[pseudo grove]

if devs cannot make online games to be preserved, better to not do it. So just single games
until the online game issue can be solved, but still I think can be resolved, is not impossible imo

a lot of old games are online by the community, after has none support
about modern games? well WF needs an update imo

[terse pelican]

If the rules came to be as you 'want them' They'd just make online games and Region restrict them and exclude the EU. Thus not having to deal with the problem

[golden latch]

Thats also a thing you can make your own servers using your own software perfectly legally just cant use or copy actual server code and assets

[golden latch]

Very very common reaction

[pseudo grove]

"online games" already sacrificed themselves in the moment are not preserved and are erased at the whim of a corpo or dev or publisher

[fickle bluff]

Pray excuse my bluntness, but you act as an entitled hypocrite. You put your own opinion (if I can't own online games, than better not to have online games at all) above everyone else's and parade it under the umbrella of an initiative that's supposed to benefit all.

[pseudo grove]

I disagree, I would love to be only "my opinion", however seems is not about me, right? the fact that games are being deleted, and the excuse "cannot be done because is online" is just laziness and negligence

[frosty spear]

the actman never really passed my sniff test and once in a while one of his videos are recommended that make more sure that my intuition is right

[golden latch]

I think the issue is the middle here. if the law was more flexible and the work could be compensated (payed for) is there and actual issue with them doing this (separate from the initiative)

[steep surge]

give me the rant too
I'm obsessed with warhammer at the moment

[steep surge]

I'm sorry but that edit of Thor looks quite funny unfortunately
Looks like something I'd draw

[frosty spear]

He deep fried him a bit

[golden latch]

Reminds me of this

[steep surge]

yeaaah it looks like some photoshop or ai stuff but that smile is something I'd draw

[jovial sandal]

that's a strange way of not killing games. Killing them in the crib isnt any better than killing them in their deathbed

[steep surge]

duuuude I was looking for reference pics of him without glasses for weeks and suddenly y'all come out of the woods with those gifs

and yea that smile weirdly looks like that

[pseudo grove]

If the online nature of a game makes preservation impossible, it's unfair, and frankly, clearly irresponsible, to suddenly shift that burden onto the customer/gamer.

Players are not at fault for how a game is designed or deployed. So, expecting them to carry the consequences is both unreasonable and a failure in accountability on the industry's part 👎

[winter sierra]

[flint sinew]

[spare trellis]

hi starr

[golden latch]

The archive of #thorchan is vast and dubious

[jovial sandal]

So you're for killing games, but only new ones

[golden latch]

Shoo

[terse pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/forrest-gump-wave-hello-hi-sup-gif-16159238468026206620

[hasty grail]

all games must die, return to monkey
(/s)

[steep surge]

hmmm maybe I need the meme channel role for more unhinged references

[terse pelican]

You justmade me think of that game... What's it called

[frosty spear]

I mean players always could vote with their wallet, like nobody is forcing anyone to buy a video game they are entertainment

[pseudo grove]

please, but only the new trashy AAA

[boreal flower]

i think sony had the right idea but targeted the wrong countries; just block EU for all online/live service games 5-head solution to the problem /j

[terse pelican]

Ancestors: The Humankind Odyssey

[pseudo grove]

wish that was right, but not true, considering the "licence" practice is literally mostly everywhere, no escape

[golden latch]

One of the reasons ive never bought a mmo

[winter sierra]

Same

[boreal flower]

which reminds me that steam recommended me a game that simulates being an mmorpg! it's a single player game but the world is populated with NPCs that act like human players so it feels like you're 'online' with people, i gotta find it again and give it a wishlist

[frosty spear]

and that applies to every online digital good

[golden latch]

I vote my support with my game purchases but im an old and i know many dont know that method cause you dont get to play many of the popular games

[golden latch]

Saw that looked intriguing

[boreal flower]

do you remember the name of it? i wanna look it up again

[terse pelican]

Erenshor?

[golden latch]

Id have to check my completed queue list one sec

[golden latch]

Danke

[boreal flower]

yes! that's the one!

thanks!

and unlike heartbound, the demo is free~

[golden latch]

[flint sinew]

[boreal flower]

[winter sierra]

The heartbound demo is $500 + first born

[golden latch]

500$ thats a steal

[winter sierra]

Yeah but the child

[flint sinew]

better add your mortgage to that /s

[steep surge]

you can always make more

[frosty spear]

Ya know if the movement was more oriented around changing how buy digital good worked in general for 1 there would have been a bigger base of support or 2 it would have went hand in hand with right to repair movement which is more organized and for 3 the pool of gamer tenancies would have been more diluted

still think this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF4zH8bJDI8&t=1052s is one of the better takes

[boreal flower]

wishlisted and followed, now to find out why five laps at freddy's got a nearly 1 gig update...

[pseudo grove]

SKG will preserve games , not to destroy it

[fickle bluff]

It is your own opinion and right now it is about you. And people like you, not understanding the depth and nuance of this entire topic, writing everything off as "lazy devs" and willing to sacrifice entire game genres to satisfy your need to "own" games.

Have you considered maybe asking other people, even on your side of this argument, if they are ready to never play an online game ever again if that is what it takes to "own" whatever games are left?

[boreal flower]

you literally said 'don't make online games then', which is basically killing a whole genre of games just to satisfy a small percentage of people?

[hard jackal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/987123333659250688/1334641163386486866/wishlist.gif

[steep surge]

oh Nelas!

[flat moat]

Thor got into the cheeto dust again?

[steep surge]

You need to start streaming
We need proof of your voice, Nelas

Also a TTS today said you're german. Did I hear that correctly?

[frosty spear]

go watch the video, the guy is a certified goat for everything he is doing with right to repair and has contributed a lot to that movement and got some notable wins

[jolly sky]

Maybe

[hard jackal]

WTH, I was in Uni, who asked that?

[frosty spear]

Jesus

[hard jackal]

People already have prove. People know my voice.

[golden latch]

Im glad to see my work in the wild

[steep surge]

Ehhh, look in answered TTS? haha
Are you tho
Tell me
I need to know

[hard jackal]

Oh yea, it was taffynay

[frosty spear]

unlike accursedfarm and all the "gamers" that came out of the wood work now

[steep surge]

regardless of voice
Unhinged photoshop streams would be so funny

[hard jackal]

Yea, I am.

[flint sinew]

oh nelas, there were some people during stream who wondered how deep your voice was...translated into hertz

[pseudo grove]

the argument that people need to know all nuance to claim basic rights, is wrong,
online games will exist, not from lazy predatory devs, my honest opinion on that,
gamers deserves consideration, how many years and still have been suffering bad industry practices, like the "license" stuff

[steep surge]

ahhh fellow german, hallo ja
I didn't know! That's so cool

[hard jackal]

Would be part of it. I have a complete Streaming Setup worked out etc. But my PC cannot support streaming in an enjoyable manner since I am on over 10 year old hardware.

[jolly sky]

Oh yea that Voice hertz test

[split tulip]

I'll bet it's so smooth it hertz

[flint sinew]

[steep surge]

ohh I feel you
Mine still runs on a GTX 970ti

[jolly sky]

I posted my result too somewhere

[steep surge]

hmmm we need video proof
for research purposes

[split tulip]

that's almost low enough to be able to imitative the noise from electrical outlets

[hard jackal]

[jolly sky]

This was my result lmao

[frosty spear]

I raise to you

[steep surge]

Nelas and Action Dan collab would go wild

[frosty spear]

Biblically accurate Thor

[jolly sky]

Me had Nelas have both spoken in a VC before

I did feel the walls vibrate

[hard jackal]

Tbh, from a listening perspective, your voice is more balanced than mine. At least in my Opinion.
My Voice is just damaged and shitty.

[astral crypt]

thanks I hate it

[pseudo grove]

how can you assume so easily I do not understand the depth and nuance of this entire topic? do you see better than me ?
the audacity is epic, you can have an opinion but does not mean is real

[jolly sky]

I think 2 and 4 are my favourite

[frosty spear]

I mean he is very fractal

[golden latch]

I enjoy thatric star

[jolly sky]

Like this is just too funny;

[astral crypt]

wild

[steep surge]

Thanks, I hate the eye one, the lower right/last

[frosty spear]

You can make some of your own https://www.malinc.se/m/ImageFractals.php but the website seems to be working only on firefox mobile

[jolly sky]

It reminds me of those videos where people would lie upside down, and would draw eyes on their chins

https://tenor.com/view/ed-sheeran-chin-beard-upside-down-loser-gif-10629628

These

[wispy plover]

love all of these horrible mutations

New cursed quest idea: You have to make a thumbnail of evil Thor destroying vidya games. The scarier the better.

[jolly sky]

Oh shit where is it

There it is

[wispy plover]

LMAO

[steep surge]

ah great thanks
Just what I wanted to see

[jolly sky]

Also a @hard jackal creation IIRC?

[hard jackal]

Nope, not mine.

[pseudo grove]

being close to mic/voice changer/equalizer
we never know chat

[frosty spear]

a base maker

[frosty spear]

The deep fried ones get crunched too bad

[steep surge]

ork thor isn't real
ork thor:

[jolly sky]

Thor if Eggs

[gentle mortar]

Thorgs

[frosty spear]

that's a new pokemon

[steep surge]

ah thanks, I wanted to have new nightmares

[jolly sky]

Thorexeggecute

[frosty spear]

don't let nintendo see it

[hard jackal]

#eggposting ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[fickle bluff]

We've been arguing that preservation of online games has a lot of nuances (software/IP/copyright/etc.) for days at this point. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Yet you write all of it off as "laziness and negligence".

[steep surge]

now I just imagine these things chasing me

[wispy plover]

Thorxeggcute D:

[pseudo grove]

as a refresher for our last friendly chat

[jolly sky]

You do not get one without the other

That is the problem here that many people seem to be handwaiving away

[pseudo grove]

please elaborate

[jolly sky]

You have already been elaborated to in multiple replies. Read further up in your conversations here

[pseudo grove]

something new to add?

[jolly sky]

Or if it makes it easier, put

"in:#streamchat mentions: 3times. " (without quotations)

Into the Discord search box at the top

[fluid dome]

Tbh

I'm tired of assuming bad faith with people who genuinely support the movement

It's exhausting

Idk maybe I just don't wanna be a cynical human being

[frosty spear]

Well at least some of them are just under the impression that the eu is a legal paradise with magical politicians and no lobbying

[hazy storm]

Unfortunately everyone has to be a but cynical now

[golden latch]

You are fine i treat them all as in good faith and help best i can and ive been able to a fee times

[hazy storm]

Its a survival skill

[reef frigate]

It’s pretty clear that Thor doesn’t understand or is misrepresenting the SKG

[steep surge]

to make it short, but I'm not getting into this any further
You can't have for example private servers without having the right to use the IP or straight up own the ip
Thats why you can't have private servers without forcing devs to give up parts of their ip rights

[tribal nest]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[jolly sky]

Totally clear, yea uh huh

https://tenor.com/view/agatha-wink-gif-26411303

[thick ledge]

a thought just occurred to me

[hazy storm]

Took the word right out of my mouth