streamchat

[jolly prism]

That would be better but we work with what we have. Having enough signatures is the very first step of a potentially very long process with many possible chanes.

[ionic sleet]

the actual best starting point the gaming industry can do, is to target games that require you to always be online yet have no multiplayer functionality.

[celest flume]

Don't know the details of law making process in the EU, but won't the developers and publisher and any other stakeholder on the topic be given chance to also put their opinion on the law.

[tribal canyon]

Was me highlighting how EU legislation isn't a perfect cure for everything like people seem to think it is

[celest flume]

SKG movement is just to get the ball rolling

[round bolt]

I remember just cause 3 having DRM

Despite having the narrative foresight of having that be the enemy faction in the game too

[idle hill]

Ah, well, that I can get with

[jolly prism]

Yes

[tribal canyon]

And how people head canon what stuff means that is totally different to reality

[ionic sleet]

that ball is rolling in to a crowd. that ball is strapped with explosives

[celest flume]

Ofcourse the end isn't 100% guaranteed to be all good, almost no law is good to everyone

[round bolt]

Knowing very little about gdpr, what are some flaws that it has?

I was under the impression it was a generic data transparency regulation

[wet storm]

It was made in Belgium /s

[ionic sleet]

simply put the initiative AS IS, is incredibly vague For the massive amount of work needed.

[tribal canyon]

So many excuses built into it for companies to keep on doing as they were already doing

[jolly prism]

Baldur's Gate 3 developers rehabilitating their entire country, one game at a time

[ionic sleet]

you also cant forget that companies by pass the laws to target political persons to "buy a vote" essentially

[pseudo grove]

I have been following you Thor for a long time, even though I like you, but I cannot pretend anymore, sorry, I must say it...

Basically I'm a dev too, with over 22 years in the industry (my father has been in the field too), and I can say objectively that sadly Thor you have been wrong this time. Not only that, no reason to be dishonest about SKG (not sure why you did that man, maybe being defensive or being stressed? You may have a reason that we don't know).

You sound really reasonable and convincing to people who lack experience in the field, but the truth is, as I see it with all my experience and knowledge, you are just not right in this case. That’s my honest take on it.

As devs, we have several creative ways to address the possible issues with a low cost (at taking what SKG actually is and not misinforming with hypothetical unrealistic issues that you made up). Also, gamers concern is logical and fair, I believe we all are aware of recent bad practices from some companies in the gaming industry.

I wish things were different, like we were in some parallel dimension or something, but hey, it is what it is, guys. I hope with Thor we can solve all this drama soon and it all works out 👍💪 keep the good work and sorry all the hate you got recently, that was not fair imo.

Will not mention more for a while about the topic, maybe all will calm down soon, see ya guys, have to go 👋

[tribal canyon]

They can still collect what they want as can just deny site Access till you agree and can flat out refuse to remove PII as can claim they still need it

[flat moat]

Given how far reaching this bill would be, I'd rather it be well cooked and not raw in order to best serve consumers, devs and publishers

[spare topaz]

except it wont - as worded, it is vague enough that it risks introducing a significant amount of regulatory burden. EU regs generally have a minimum timeframe of product support expectancy, because otherwise it would remain permanently in effect - case in point machinery regs, cosmetics regs, biocidal products regs, medical device regs etc. The requirement to be left in a playable state is very likely to be translated into a minimum timeframe for support, which based on other regs released would reasonably be about 5-10 years. Thats an extreme amount of additional work to heap onto indies and will only marginally affect the big corpo groups. Think of how many hardware updates, software refreshes etc that have happened in the last 5-10 years, and you see the risk

[tribal canyon]

Pay to reject personalised ads is the clearest example I've seen

[spare topaz]

not an airport, off you pop

[wispy plover]

I feel like too many people miss the entire point. Get the ball rolling? When you are talking about government involvement, and yes, this includes outside of the US, you cant just "get the ball rolling." You have to have stuff more ironed out than that. You can just roll the ball into a burning house and go "Well we got the conversation started! :D"

[shy mist]

Hey there!

Let's separate the points:

1. "An artist has every right to take their artwork off the internet". The analogy does not really work here as the artist can't go to my computer and delete the artwork. (The use of the artwork is to have it/look at it/use it somewhere else, not to play it). If they could, however, come to my computer and delete it, after I paid 50 euros for it, I don't think they should be allowed to (bought as goods).

Now, the more apt analogy, if I paid for a license to that artwork (like I would in the Unity Asset Store for example), that has a ToS, and its a license in perpetuity as long as I don't break that ToS. Sometimes the asset goes unsupported, so no new people can buy it and** I will not receive support or updates for that asset**. However, I can still keep (in fact, in this case, I can still download, as long as Unity servers run) the last version of the asset that I paid for, because it was left on a usable state.

I think we could agree that if Unity stopped letting me download the last version of the asset, or if it was not left on a usable state, I should be able to complain about it, and the rules should be that the asset provider should not be able to do that, right?

That's a better analogy in my opinion.

2. Museum Tickets. Part of the reason for the petition to exist is that these games / access to game licenses we are buying do not specify until when the service will be available (am I buying a ticket for 1 day, 1 week, 5 months?), or how long of a notice they have to give us before deciding to stop service. I think if you bought a museum ticket at 10 am and at 11:30 the museum said "Oh, you know what, we just realized we cant afford the electricity to keep the museum open the whole day. Please exit the premises", you should be entitled to a refund, wouldn't you?

[wet storm]

I was told an analogy yesterday that I really liked

You buy an album in apple music

Apple goes "oops this album no longer licensed to us NERD give it back"

And thus it vaporizes

Then some dork on the internet says "weLL yoU LIcEnsEd IT NOT bOUGHt It"

[flat moat]

What games have you worked on? Just curious

[celest flume]

Then won't the best course of action is to actually converse with the movement so when the actual hearing comes (if the petition even passed) the perfect points could be proposed in the hearings.

Like this is a good time to just flesh out what everyone worrying about the petition and actually clear it out before the hearing comes. Instead being hostile to each other like whats happening recently.

[ionic sleet]

Would this be a better approach?

Game companies must provide a grace period of (lets say 1 year) before EOL. until then you have a license(following ToS) until EOL.

[celest flume]

The hearing themself can be used to explain more about the issue

[idle hill]

Pointing out that last part: the last minute shutdown will never occur like you explain it to. Games will usually announce ahead of time when their services will shut down, so you can cancel your subscription, or enjoy what little time you have left.

[steel reef]

Did some searching... Would either of these help with the YouTube unbanning thing?
(Could even add the liveChatBans insert/delete commands to the bot idea from #streamchat message to log which moderator is doing what, if that info isn't too outdated or something...)
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/55721986/how-to-look-up-youtube-live-chat-ban-id-to-delete-it#69802935
https://developers.google.com/youtube/v3/live/docs/liveChatBans

[idle hill]

1 year is a bit of a stretch, I would say 2 or 3 months prior to shutting down, as that gives users time to see the message and cancel their subscriptions, or continue playing.

It would have to be shown in game, rather than just on social media.

[ionic sleet]

yea time could be adjusted. its at least something you could require all game companies to have listed

I think most already do it

[spare topaz]

Nice idea, but its too late here

the time for discourse was before the initiative was released. To be blunt Ross made a mistake in not reaching out to impacted stakeholders before he published his initiative.

Now, combined with the vitriol around this subject online, has made it unworkable to do

[ionic sleet]

not saying a well crafted initiative couldn't make a resurgence though.

[idle hill]

This actually reminds me of the Mojang -> Microsoft account transfer that occurred. That didn't happen until 2 years after the initial announcement, did it?

[spare topaz]

id support a version of this that was reworked to take into account the concerns, and was far more sturdily worded and phrased

but i agree, it has to be a new one after all this has died down

[ionic sleet]

I think thats what a lot of people would prefer. the current one just has too many problems inside and outside of the initiative

[idle hill]

People kept complaining "I JJST SAW THIS FOR THE FRIST TIME!" at the last second, because they weren't paying attention to the game with an account that they paid for.
The other day, I was talking to someone about Minecraft, and they complained that their account was deleted because they didn't transfer it.

[flat moat]

That's the beautiful thing about petitions: if the first fails, a second can be made

[gentle mortar]

Yes, and then they were notifying more and more when the deadline was approaching.

[spare topaz]

problem is that the messaging right now from Ross isnt helping: he is saying that if this doesnt pass it will never happen in future. Not constructive, and guaranteed to ramp up the tension

[shy mist]

EU portal petitions are not meant to be an extensive proposed law draft. I don't even think character limits would allow that. They are meant to say: I am a citizen / group of citizens concerned about this. We think this is breaking the law / its causing a problem. We ordain you to take parties from both sides of the issue, discuss it, and tell us what you concluded.

[ionic sleet]

Of course we do need a lengthy period before anything gets brought back up

[jolly prism]

The only vitriol I have seen towards the initiate was from Thor and while it caused all these discussions it definitely brought a lot of attention. There are still plenty of stakeholders who can work with it.

[celest flume]

You could ask any influencer , or maybe also thor to actually discuss it with SKG and bring up the issues opposition has so it can help refine things for the hearing (if petition passed).

Theres no such thin as too late

[ionic sleet]

Fair. but I don't think this was Reiterated correctly enough in the first place

[spare topaz]

not towards, from the initiative. SKG's supporters have a large vocal minority that has been incredibly brutish and nasty

[ionic sleet]

no the initiative is certainly dead

and I don't think any talks can be made for a while due to the Vitriol etc.

[jolly prism]

Most people shitting on Thor due to SKG are doing so because they like shitting on Thor. I would not be going around labeling SKG's supporters as such - especially with a "large vocal minority ".

[flat moat]

He's just a stressor tbh. He knows he doesn't want to go through the process again if it fails now but saying it will never happen is ridiculous

[ionic sleet]

everyone needs a breather and learning classes

[gentle mortar]

Dang it, I read it as incredibly british

[celest flume]

Just ignore them, if the big voices actually sat down and had conversation we wouldn't be in this shirtstorm.

[idle hill]

Dangit, my wording got me again

[jolly prism]

What the hell does "large vocal minority" even mean

[ionic sleet]

We cant ignore them. content creators are going to drama farm

[celest flume]

Probably a loud minority

[spare topaz]

take one look on any social media platform discussing this topic and it wont be hard to find

[spare topaz]

well, i am british, so....

[jolly prism]

Again, people doing so are doing it because it's Thor, they may not even be part of the SKG community.

[idle hill]

I'd argue SKG screwed up when Ross put out that video saying it was "easy to pass", how it'll breeze right through, and give legislators a break from other things. That was where Thor snapped.

[ionic sleet]

You cant even sit down with Ross to discuss it because he has no extensive knowledge in the subjects

[gentle mortar]

oh, nothing personal man

[ionic sleet]

same for other creators

[idle hill]

And rightly so, because that kind of wording insults legislators' intelligence and downplays the meaning of the initiative.

[spare topaz]

thats a convenient dismissal of the reality - these people are citing SKG. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

[celest flume]

I can understand the emotional part, but i still don't understand why theres no head to head discussion

[jolly prism]

And they are citing mana gems for other dramas. It just fits right now.

[flat moat]

They just need an angle to attack from. Bet these guys are still left over from the OF WOW classic drama

[ionic sleet]

its just going to be a teaching course

[jolly prism]

Exacly my point.

[spare topaz]

no no, none taken! im just multi track drifting - this is a brief distraction from reading the latest working group minutes from the Machinery regulation working group

[celest flume]

How would you know tho?

[idle hill]

Because the way Ross put it out, and how people are responding to Thor about it, makes it impossible for a discussion to be had. Both sides think they're right.

[wispy plover]

So about the whole "sit down and talk about it" thing that everyone LOVES bringing up... I want to remind people that Thor was asked for his input almost a year ago and gave it. And now everyone wants Thor to have a conversation and offer fixes to the initiative...

Since when the hell was this Thor's problem to fix? Why is it on Thor to fix Ross's thing?

[ionic sleet]

I know nothing on the intracacies of being a Doctor. How am i going to have a discussion with a Doctor about a subject they are knowledgable in?

[spare topaz]

do you see what you are doing here? you are excusing the actions of others because it marrs the argument you are making. You cannot cite the speck in someone else's eye without also acknowledging the plank in your own

SKG has a vitriol problem that is hampering any beneficial discussion around it

[celest flume]

Then the best thin is to just talk it out no? like really is it that wrong to just sit down, have a talk, give it at least 30 minute to start, dont even need to record it.

What sparked this 100% hostility isolationism act , i really dont understand

[ionic sleet]

the Masses are just immensely Ill informed on the subjects in the first place.

[jolly prism]

What? Where am I excusing their actions? I am just saying that SKG has likely little to do with it, as these people like to attack Thor with anything that is currently relevant.

[shy mist]

This would also apply to Thor not having knowledge on how law is passed / EU petitions work, wouldn't it. I think both sides could have benefited from doing a talk back then, then could still go separate ways at the end

[celest flume]

both would benefit greatly having a talk now

[ionic sleet]

Yes but he is at least knowledgable about Dev work etc. so you cant just have Thor only talk.

[celest flume]

even if both disagree it could lessen all the hostility going around

[spare topaz]

Ok, so the people coming into Thor's chat every 30 seconds calling him a games killer, or a corpo shill to kill games, or "the killer of SKG" is somehow unconnected?

[round bolt]

I think after the "this is ass" moment there was a line drawn in the sand where that just isn't going to happen again.

[ionic sleet]

and i honestly would love more developers to talk than Just Thor

[flat moat]

Bridges have been burned, Ross even mentions in the latest SKG vid he doesn't want to talk and feel Thor doesn't either

[gentle mortar]

I like to be more mean/ being a shitter as a joke to both laugh at, but idk how much can i be in here, idk what's the limit

[idle hill]

ThePrimeTime already did, 10 months ago, shortly after Thor did.

[ionic sleet]

more

[spare topaz]

I work with EU regulations on the daily and thor is not wrong on this - look at any other successful initiative proposal that became law and you will see that they clearly detailed their intentions, how it would work, any mitigations required, and cited similar regulations that could be used as a pattern

[ionic sleet]

about 5 in each subject would be a start

[muted wadi]

thor has this in some of his tweets to outline what he thinks isnt reasonable, is the original of this still up? the skg website doesnt have much on it, mainly an faq and i couldnt find it in there

[jolly prism]

Read my message again and try to understand it, please. The point is that they are using anything currently relevant to attack Thor. It is SKG now, it was WOW before. It is connected to SKG by name but those people care less about the initiative and more about attacking Thor. That is what I am writing.

[idle hill]

I'm sure there's more, though I personally am not too deep into dev youtube
I'm an artist that watches Minecraft and Horror videos

[ionic sleet]

Devs don't always equal Publishers right?

[spare topaz]

how do you not see the problem here? These people are here, and none of the leading voices for SKG are stopping them. Theres no condemnation of their behaviour, no messaging to say they dont represent the movement. They are being tolerated, and i dare argue being encouraged by, the movement

[idle hill]

of course not.

[flat moat]

Developers are often a different company/studio entirely

[wet storm]

And both sides have rank smelly kobolds that never bothered to learn how to respectfully argue

[round bolt]

As somebody who's not a boomer and has seen plenty of vitriol online.... What exactly do you expect people to do?

[wet storm]

I had fun here tho this week was fun

Many peeps here went through good avenues

[celest flume]

Separate want and would, and problem is they both are leader of 2 clashing community right now, showing that they acn still talk would really chill down the hostile feeling, and it would out the shitflingers from the actual fans/supporter of either side.

[ionic sleet]

this specifically also says "Publishers" which is another Vague point (replying for the image not what you said sry)

[spare topaz]

simple; speak out against it. Which in this era is more easier than ever

but all we have is silence

[wispy plover]

I made a point about this earlier... it wouldn't. Go look at the replies to Josh Strife Hayes in his recent video addressing it. EVERYONE is saying "No Josh, actually Thor deserves this"

They don't care about lessening hostility. They care about making him the villain in this.

[shy mist]

question, as you seem to have personal knowledge on that. Is your concern that if it reached the 1m signatures that the "wrong laws" would pass or that no laws would pass and it would remove opportunities for the issue to be talked about later?

[round bolt]

I was going to bring up Josh's video but it looks like someone else already has.

[wet storm]

That's how trolls work

Back in my day we ignored them

[spare topaz]

yes, absolutely. I am certain that being left in a playable state will translate into a minimum timeframe of support that would rapidly increase regulatory burden on developers that would be more keenly felt by smaller studios than the AAAs

[wet storm]

Do you have an example I could look into? I'm curious like a cat

That's why my friends call me Whiskers

[celest flume]

But we** dont know**, there has been 0 attempt of direct talk, its the internet people will fling shite for fun, but if either side head figure has no hate anymore, it would out the actual fans from trolls.

[wispy plover]

It isnt trolls when it is the entire comment section. Nearly EVERY comment is a hateful one. Theres a difference between trolls and a witch hunt.

[spare topaz]

gimme a sec, will go and find a successful one's original initiative proposal

[shy mist]

sorry, I pressed Enter prematurely and accidentally, I editted the comment to add the full question

[flat moat]

No, that's because your mustache is stiff

[jolly prism]

My understanding is that there is mainly one official voice for the initiative and that is Ross himself. I do agree he should call for people to calm down on the attacks on Thor but Thor did call both him and the initiative some very hostile things essentially unprovoked so maybe he is not doing so due to personal feelings. 🤷‍♂️

[muted wadi]

it just reads like it would require studios to provide private server tools, for example it would require FromSoft to develop a "Seemless Coop mod" if they ever were to take down the Elden Ring servers

[round bolt]

Luckily users were able to do that easily

[muted wadi]

which i dont think should be done with regulation, but i'd like to read the whole thing and not just the first 3 paragraphs

was it easy?

[round bolt]

I'm curious if a version of this initiative could possibly exist, any wording, that would result in the intended outcome that people would support?

Also yeah seamless co-op as notorious for being made within the first few months of every from soft release

For the most part.

[ionic sleet]

Yes it could. but the people drafting the initiative needs input from all aspects of said industry

[spare topaz]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2021/000006_en heres one for you - theres multiple others but tbh im also trying to read a few things for work at the same time so a little distracted

[ionic sleet]

but the initiative itself if worded correctly is like playing a new game on insane mode first. not a good starting point

[muted wadi]

it didnt exist for any of them until elden ring

[spare topaz]

there absolutely could have been, but it would have required stakeholder input prior to submission - this issue would have been identified and mitigated had any collaboration occurred

[celest flume]

Saying rude shit isn't the end , like cmon we are all adult here, why would calling someone ass be the last straw, if thats how really the world run we would all be in nuclear fire right now.

[muted wadi]

after that the dev made versions for AC6, dk3, and dks1r

[ionic sleet]

A perfect starting point is always online DRM etc.

which gives a live service initiative some backing

[muted wadi]

regardless

[shy mist]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but, the points there also feel like things that would have been called "vague".

"1. Protect and strengthen the cosmetics animal testing ban. 2. Transform EU chemicals regulation. 3. Modernise science in the EU."

[ionic sleet]

In which you could also combine EOL and authentication DRM into the base initiative

[spare topaz]

check the annex

[velvet sedge]

god damn, these skg guys are going feral, my reddit feed is like 1/3 anti pirate software posts where they're just throwing everything they can gto discredit him, where was this level of energy in promoting the skg proposal in a normal way

[worthy ivy]

you either die a hero or live long enough for muppets on the intertubes to make you the villain

[ionic sleet]

the entire WoW Hardcore era really poisoned people thanks to all those streamers being reaction content streamers. I think.

[spare topaz]

(btw sorry if my messages seem short, im also working)

[shy mist]

I did, a lot of that there too, no? "Put in place concrete steps. Ensure that test requirement deadlines are not applied at the expense of scientific rigour or human and environmental safety by allowing a default fallback to reliance on unreliable tests on animals. Initiate legislation to strengthen and broaden the cosmetics testing bans"

The concrete parts I see are things like:

"Immediately implement the existing EU bans. Clarify that the requirement to rely on non-animal data for the safety assessment of cosmetics ingredients must be applied and animal data rejected, regardless of the location and purpose of animal tests conducted after the cut-off periods described in Article 18(2) of the EU Cosmetics Regulation."

The SKG petition had similar points, didn't it?

Any way, I will shut up about this part because I'm not versed in this stuff, just wanted to say that I genuinely don't see the problem

[ionic sleet]

Law stuff is like that lol

[idle hill]

Because it's uncalled for?
The moment you start flinging shit, you lose the argument.
ESPECIALLY when you start telling people to off themselves or that any losses you get are deserved
Was Thor rude when he made his statement? Sure, but he apologized for his rudeness and stood by his statement.
What the people attacking him are saying isn't just rude, it's threats to his own life. Thor said nothing of the sort, but they're acting like he killed their cat.

[wispy plover]

I actually feel like the response would be a lot less right now if people weren't still stuck on that meaningless fiasco

[ionic sleet]

and the poor ferrets were a target

[shy mist]

Thanks a lot for giving the example and the responses Trev

[spare topaz]

the example i gave it explicitly citing which regulations it could already tie into, as well as directives that exist that are already aligned with some of its intentions. It lays the groundwork clearly that meant the outcome law was very much in line with the initiative

[wispy plover]

As someone who played WoW for 18 of its 20 year existence, I can tell you that WoW players ruin everything. Kinda like league. But with possibly more basement dwellers.

[ionic sleet]

I was there during the WoW stuff and checked the other streamers out and just felt " This all feels like reaction content. I thought thor dislikes this"

[spare topaz]

if you dont see the problem that's fine, each to their own etc, but i can see a wild difference between the two

[shy mist]

Ok, I appreciate it

[idle hill]

Ross does not deserve a talk in any way, shape, or form. Thor could choose to talk to him about the Initiative if he wanted to, but there is no benefit for him to do so because the Initiative does not affect him. Thor made his statement, and he stands by it.

[velvet sedge]

perhaps, but the guy I'm currently talking to accepts that wow was dumb, but to say thor united all of europe on this is is dumb

[spare topaz]

anytime! you were respectful and inquisitive - i have all the time in the world for that mindset, even if we dont agree

anyways, this document im reading for work is being rude and not reading itself and is demanding my attention , have a great day everyone

[idle hill]

Let this be yet another reminder that the CHAT came to Thor about his opinion, and he chose to give it to them. He did not have to, but he may have felt pressured to do so because of the volume of people asking him for it.

[gentle mortar]

lmao, bye

[jolly prism]

And Thor then chose to respond in the way he did (calling both the initiative and Ross shit) and with the hateboner that exists for Thor on the internet it backfired down the line. Chat "forced" him to respond but not the way in which he responded.

[jade topaz]

Can someone explain whats happening

[jolly prism]

And while Thor is definitely entitled to his opinion, he could have expected the outcome.

[idle hill]

I already mentioned that Thor apologized for the way he responded, and a reason why he may have done so

[jade topaz]

…..

[idle hill]

He didn't have a "hateboner" for SKG, he said it was disgusting because of the way it was presented

[ionic sleet]

just skg stuff. the current convo is dwindling down

[jolly prism]

He difinitely did and that's good on him. It still happened though and the apology was after the latest outcry.

[idle hill]

So do you believe he apologized because he was called out, or do you believe he apologized because he felt bad for the way he spoke?

[jolly prism]

Both.

[knotty marsh]

some people disagree with Thor about a subject
other peeps with a hate bonner or nothing better to do use that to form some sort of hate brigade believing they are moraly right to do so
Internet 1O1

[jade topaz]

No seriously, i rarely see this pop up but now every gross sad neckbeard channel has a video talking about pirate software, whats been done, if anything to upaet so many people¿ or is this just twitter being….. twitter

[jade topaz]

What was the opinion¿

[arctic needle]

My youtube is heavily curated, I haven't seen anything

[ionic sleet]

the current initiative is ending which is culminating into a hateboner bubble that will pop soon.

before this talk actually died down

[knotty marsh]

that he believe the Stop Killing games Iniciate has flaws in it and is dangerously vague as it stands
he does believe in the concept itself but that sadly got lost

[wispy plover]

It's funny cus when you asked what was going on I was gonna make a comment about Thor being on trial in the Twitter court of lul, but I decided against it.

[idle hill]

SKG could end up damaging games instead of preserving them because of the way it is written. He also did not like the smugness in how it was presented by Ross. He (Thor) focused mostly on multiplayer games as an example of those that would be affected by the current wording.

[jade topaz]

Im sorry i dont know what that is

So…. He doesnt think games should be taken offline indefinitely like the crew¿

[opaque raven]

I'm trying to fix my bathroom door but seems like the wood absorbed some water and inflated a little bit and now the door isn't closing correctly...idk if I can dry wood like this, maybe I should have put some varnish before, hmm.
Oh, you meant on chat? Idk ☀️

[ionic sleet]

stop killing games was an initiative by Ross(idk full name) to preserve live service games. the wording was incredibly vague and his video misrepresented things without much knowledge. Thor said his opinion 10 months ago and receive hate and death threats. the initiative is dying down now so the talk has been reignited. he has not stopped recieving hate for an opinion.

think i summed it up.

[worthy ivy]

someone doesn't agreeing with someone else (and said something perfectly reasonable about eating their 'entire ass') so the interweb lost it's minds because it's 2025, nuance is dead, and the slightest hint of not being part of the current groupthink is obviously a reason to brigade and send death threats

[idle hill]

The Crew was removed from SKG as one of their arguments, actually. But he does agree that games LIKE The Crew should be able to be played entirely offline after EOL, because a significant portion of the content was able to be experienced in Singleplayer.

It's people that are mad he used MMOs and MOBAs as an example of games that could be harmed because of SKG's vague wording, they think it is somehow misinterpreting the initiative.

[jade topaz]

Okay so…. Getting to keep and continue to play the games you paid for is the opinion here…yes¿

How could an mmo be hurt?¿

[ionic sleet]

that is a simple take on it. it was all so vague and thor pointed out the difficulties.

[shy mist]

Before my "outsider" opinion (I have watched Thor quite a bit before this stuff, and participated in a Pirate Jam), let's be clear here. Thor (or anyone for that matter) does not deserve death threats, harassment, or even annoyance to the level that he has received it.

That said, while yes, a lot is drama farming, I think the drama farming continues to have legs because I do think people perceive Thor's given reasons and actions to not align with someone that does strongly believe in conservation of games / gamers / game devs. I do feel he could have and could still do better in his communication and attitude towards this topic.

But again, the obnoxious stuff, I condemn that any day, towards anyone.

[idle hill]

Because SKG asks that all games have an end of life plan, as in leaving them in a Functional Playable State, which is impossible for a game whose experience is entirely multiplayer.

[ionic sleet]

the way live service games are made makes it incredibly difficult and the initiative wants the government to join in making things even more difficult

[jade topaz]

See i dont condemn that behavior, rather just ignore it because those aren’t people. And having a presence on the internet is going to get that sort of attention no matter what you do

Being upset by it is just wasting time and energy towards something or someone that is already pretty close to the bottom of the barrel in terms of sentience and what we should care about as people

Thank you for answering my question though. I assumed this was something dumb i just became a little concerned with how much attention it was receiving in a negative light.

[jolly prism]

Aaand comment's like this are definitely not helping anything or the vitriol some people might have towards Thor.

[jade topaz]

Turns out, it was dumber than i had thought

[ionic sleet]

incredibly dumb

[idle hill]

Yes, very much so.

[shy mist]

Yeah, what an out of touch comment

[jade topaz]

I know your correct i just dont understand why

Sorry

[idle hill]

We're not particularly upset about SKG, just the danger behind the vagueness. We are upset about people threatening Thor's life/lifestyle, because they don't like how he pointed out SKG's flaws.

[idle hill]

What I assume they were expecting was for Thor to smile and give a thumbs up, saying "Yeah, this is great, no problems at all, ship it to legislation!"

[prime crest]

People got mad because even though Thor didn't really say anything wrong he also did not fully explain what the entire purpose was, making it seem like the SKG was only doing bad stuff. There is some truth to that but the response they have done is even worse, intentionally portraiting Thor as a con artist.
And a sizeable chunk of creators all jumped onto this issue and continued to do the same.
Claiming they are starting the drama in the name of SKG, as an advertisement of sorts. It's kinda pathetic.
It's important to mention that the haters are a small portion of the people, and has little to do with the actual SKG. They are just people that live just to do hate and take part in drama.
Just like it is not fair to paint Thor as a con it is not fair to paint SKG as an attack on the industry.

[jade topaz]

Thats what i mean

[shy mist]

I don't know if I'm being baited but I'll take the bait. The moment one finds it easy to think of others as "bottom of the barrel in sentience" and "not people" is a moment to take a break and look inwards and see if everything is well there

[jade topaz]

I dont know what i said wrong but those people are sad

[jade topaz]

Do you see twitter wagon burners as people¿

They do their best to ruin lives and careers because someone doesn’t agree with them

Thats insane

[shy mist]

yeah. and they probably think of the people they are attacking as bottom of the barrel in sentience and not people

[ionic sleet]

this is some heavy talk but easy to think these days in the US

[idle hill]

They are still people, though not mentally well.

[arctic needle]

We have to believe these people are redeemable or we are as bad as they are

[jade topaz]

Perhaps

I speak out of hatred so its certainly skewed

[idle hill]

I just noticed your username

[prime crest]

Yeah ironically everyone except Josh Strife have just done exactly what they found wrong about Thor's response back to him and they think they are justified.
Need to make up their mind. Either it's ok to talk about things or it's not.

[jade topaz]

Ha

Thank you

[idle hill]

christ that's a hell of a name to pick

[jade topaz]

It brings laughter

[jolly prism]

"Thor didn't really say anything wrong" - he said that the initiative and tactics Ross was using are "disgusting", said "this is shit", told Ross to "eat my entire ass", "all of this is shit", and more. Let's not pretend Thor was a saint in his analysis of SKG.

[idle hill]

We're not, though

[jade topaz]

I mean, thats just a way of speaking.

[prime crest]

Those are things that Thor already adressed and apologized for.
Yeah he was not a saint.
But everyone does exactly that back to him and think they are justified.

[jolly prism]

I am literally quoting what the person wrote about Thor not saying anything wrong. What do you even mean.

[shy mist]

alright, gonna go, everyone have a good day. Hope the vitriol on Thor stops and the SKG initiative succeeds 😂

[jolly prism]

Or is telling someone to "eat their entire ass" not wrong?

[idle hill]

I mean what the person above you just said

[jade topaz]

Alright, i mean i think i got the answer i was searching for, thank you all

[prime crest]

That is just how Thor talks when he believes something is wrong

[ionic sleet]

no that sounds pretty civil to me

[jolly prism]

Try writing it in Thor's twitch chat and report back, please.

[main ruin]

@outer cobalt Your message is being held because of cursewords, remove them

[ionic sleet]

worse things could be said that have been commonly said before

[outer cobalt]

ah ok

This is the text submitted to the eu proposal

This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.

There are multiple problems with this wording.

1. Sell or license covers almost every method of purchasing/playing a game. So, it refers to all games.
2. What does it mean to provide "reasonable means" to "leave said videogames" in a "playable" state. If the hardware is deprecated, does the game dev also have to provide for hardware? etc etc etc

The proposal itself is way too vague, way too open, way too liberal, way too naive, and obviously done with little consultation with the game dev community at large, instead cherry picking companies that already practice this at a niche gimmick.

People initially supported the initiative imo for "fun", but when Thor began listing examples of how this is bad, people started to treat this seriously. that is how the initiative died.

[idle hill]

I'm still trying to get it out of my vocabulary myself

[outer cobalt]

People still want game devs to make games. Making it hard for game devs to make games and distribute them, benefits no one.

[jade topaz]

A gift for you all

[west plinth]

I am confident this violates at least several rules

[prime crest]

To be fair. SKG absolutely brings an actual issue that should be solved. Avoiding the issue is not a good way to handle things. We need to find a compromise that works for everyone.

[jade topaz]

Booooo

[west plinth]

someone was faster than me with the mod ticket

[rotund trout]

nope

[idle hill]

I looked away for 3 seconds

[rotund trout]

no ticket, mod here

[west plinth]

or there's mod active in the chat

[rotund trout]

muhahaha

[ionic sleet]

Definitely. but it needs to be done by people knowledgeable in the gaming industry. not a random content youtuber(trying to be nice)

[arctic needle]

Jake is here somewhere too

[west plinth]

ohh hi, sophie

[prime crest]

Technically you can challenge TOS of games and do a lawsuit against a firm that has unfair TOS and probably win that lawsuit.
Can't guarantee that though.

[outer cobalt]

not sure if game devs are fine with their IP, especially art and music, essentially pirated.

also, refer to the RO community of how that will end up, eventually private servers will all require monetisation, and how would that be legal or let the original game dev also benefit from it?

[opaque raven]

Wait...hmm...Shaye works with Thor but afaik isn't a mod. So by definition Shaye can have some bread, right??

Good

GOOD

[ionic sleet]

don't forget that a Lot of Devs License stuff or make heavy changes to an existing game engine which further complicates matters

[ionic sleet]

Shaye makes the bread

[outer cobalt]

you cant be asking a game dev to work hard for 2-3 years with minimum pay, make a decent ish game for 100+ people who don't even pay to cover server costs, now have to make their art just free for people to pirate and plagiarise.

[idle hill]

Dont tell thor of this discovery

[arctic needle]

Shaye can hide bread from Thor

[ionic sleet]

Shaye = Bread God?

[outer cobalt]

we should allow game devs to choose whether they want to resell their assets to someone else to recoup costs etc and start a new game instead etc

[prime crest]

I don't know much about Ross so i have no idea whether he is knowledgable enough to deal with it.
But i would imagine once the initiative comes though (if it does) it's going to become a community effort. I don't believe they will just pass that as a law as it is written at this point 1:1 with no changes.

[outer cobalt]

game dev already pay very little, making it even harder to monetise it is not going to benefit anyone

[ionic sleet]

it officially ends on july 3rd i think

a month before this it was passed over in the EU

[opaque raven]

Hence the reason for a law, not a market solution between parties ☀️
Now they don't have a choice, yey

[jolly prism]

31st of July

[outer cobalt]

its just market economics. making a law doesnt solve the problem.

games are not meant to be consumed only by the rich

[west plinth]

there are always multiple ways to achieve a thing in law. the fundamental issue with SKG as it is written is that it mandates extra behavior of game developers, which will be an overhead cost, which will make the development of certain video games less likely.

an alternative angle would be to, say, decriminalise the preservation/restoration efforts of video games, which don't come with overhead costs for developers, but still runs into massive challenges with IP laws (which in my opinion need a massive restructuring, anways)

[worthy ivy]

"he could still do better in his communication and attitude towards this topic" is the bit that bothers me about the discourse on this issue

there is a lot of "Thor communicated badly" or "Thor had the wrong 'tude"... who decides what is bad or wrong?

I understand Thor's PoV having listened to what he said, and for me his "attitude" doesn't change the content and any any event

disregarding the content because of the presentation is an intellectually weak move

hell, thinking further on it, even "attitude" is subjective is it not? I'm pretty sure if someone proposed a new initiative that had elements that would likely harm grassroots DJs (the "indie dev" equivalent for my industry) I would probably say they can eat my entire ass too... and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it

I'll say it now in fact: anyone who pushes for vague legislation that I believe will harm grassroots DJs can eat my entire ass

[ionic sleet]

okay UK = july 14th and EU = july 31st

[outer cobalt]

if they want the game to be preserved, they should be proposing to buy the ip. in this case, skg folks are not even asking to pay for servers.

[opaque raven]

Ofc not, I'm being sarcastic. My career is in economics, this whole thing pisses me off more thn you can imagine

[idle hill]

People complaining about his attitude don't have a leg to stand on because he already apologized to the people that mattered.

[worthy ivy]

also I exhort y'all to try "eat my entire ass" IRL - it always gets a laugh
I may or may not have claimed it to use as my own on the regular 🙂

[outer cobalt]

whats wrong with his attitude anyway? there's nothign wrong.

[pseudo grove]

I believe it's important to ensure developers are protected in cases where they can't cover certain costs due to unforeseen circumstances in the process. At the same time, gamers deserve protection too, especially when they're spending real money on games. Striking a fair balance between both sides is essential.

[idle hill]

They're riling him up and making him emotional so they can clip it and use it to justify their hate towards him.

[west plinth]

also true, but that comes down to the problem that even a dead IP is usually valued in the millions for sale

[ionic sleet]

we do agree

[outer cobalt]

i think Thor's proposal to make it clear that you cannot sell a game if its meant to be a license is pretty good and actionable.

[ionic sleet]

but we are holding a poisoned apple at this point

[outer cobalt]

yes, because that's the amount of effort that went into it. we can't be complaining that game artists dont get paid much but then gamers dont want to be paying for art ip

[remote briar]

Problem is usually licenses have expiration dates. Most games do not

[pseudo grove]

I agree. However, in my view, the way 'licenses' are currently handled tends to be unfair to consumers.

[prime crest]

Yeah IP laws and copyright laws are horrible. Constantly being used against people that do nothing wrong, by big corporations that just have the power to shut down everyone.

[outer cobalt]

how so?

[ionic sleet]

You end up seeing all the precursor problems

it may be beneficial to divide the types of licenses that are being referred to

[outer cobalt]

it depends on the license

[ionic sleet]

cause that itself is vague

[outer cobalt]

if you bought a chrome book but internet is not included would you be mad?

[opaque raven]

Yes

I want free things

Don't you?????

[remote briar]

No expiration date and licenses like Blizzards that can be terminated at any time for any or no reason

[outer cobalt]

#metoo

[ionic sleet]

we aren't in that timeline though

[tight bramble]

It's 2025. Certain things should just be guaranteed by now

[west plinth]

I keep having the """very funny""" thought that you coulld probably nuke copyright out of existing by bringing up that fandoms exist, outproduce the IP holder by a factor of at least 100, are easy to find by nature and are walking copyright violations, but I'm no lawyer so what do I know

[outer cobalt]

yeah, abuses will be done on both side. dont buy games from game devs you dont want a cooperative relationship with

[remote briar]

Do u know of an example of a licensed game with a duration, cuz i genuinely can't think of any besided subscription games, which are not covered by the initiative

[outer cobalt]

every game is covered under the initiative

[pseudo grove]

From what I've seen, some companies use the 'license' model as a legal shield for practices that feel abusive, for instance, revoking access to a game the customer paid for, which raises serious ethical concerns.

[placid plover]

[opaque raven]

BREAD!!!!

Don't let Bread go away!!!

[idle hill]

Answering honestly: unless the chromebook was advertised to have internet included, or the box itself says it has internet included, then I have no right to be mad. Can I be mad? Sure. But the box says what it says.

[remote briar]

Ross has stated that subscription based games prob wouldn't be covered, since they state when service ends for every individual payment

[outer cobalt]

i honestly think we need a better framework for revoking access to players who abuse games. some sort of refund is needed imo

but thats another topic

[tight bramble]

FOR THE BREAD MODS!!!

[outer cobalt]

This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.
this is what they said in the eu proposal

they can claim whatever they want in youtube, but this is what they uploaded to be voted on : https://eci.ec.europa.eu/045/public/#/screen/home

[remote briar]

And that's why they havr discussions to clarify such positions afterwards. I am going off what Ross has stated

[ionic sleet]

you cant just clarify afterword

[opaque raven]

"Probably wouldn't" is just interpretation and hope
What matters is what's written

[outer cobalt]

at that point imo they should just agree that SKG is a failure, it was stupid of them to start a proposal on things they dont understand and just start a new proposal with a better legal team.

the EU has support for consumer protections, including drafting initiatives

[remote briar]

Probably wouldn't because Ross wants to save all videogames, but he does not see how it legally could be protected like other games

[outer cobalt]

at this point they are spamming every legal system that accepts citizen initiatives with the same WRONG proposal

[opaque raven]

So dont write the initiative and draft it like it did

[remote briar]

They're not supposed to draft the entire law tho. They're raising a concern

[pseudo grove]

I agree that abusive players shouldn't have access to online features. However, fully revoking their ability to play the game, even offline, can be problematic. A better approach might be to allow limited offline/online access that doesn't impact other players, especially for games designed to be online only.

[outer cobalt]

if they understood that what they are proposing is wrong, dont spam every initiative with the same wrong proposal

[ionic sleet]

a Plumber trying to do brain surgery

[outer cobalt]

that may be possible imo.

[opaque raven]

It's a very silly and childish way to see an initiative to just throw broad ideas and see what sticks with the concept of "we discuss this later"

[outer cobalt]

dude coulda start talking on youtube, asking for help, and then draft it properly but no. for the sake for fame he just went ahead and did it anyway with the same provocative stupid statement everywhere

[remote briar]

They do understand. It's just that the initiative page has a character limit and is thereford not designed to outline every edge case

[outer cobalt]

this isnt about edge cases.

[remote briar]

And also they obvi don't think it's wrong

[outer cobalt]

the general case of making EVERY game available FOREVER is what they are saying in the proposal

[worthy ivy]

where can I get a laptop with the internet pre-installed?

I have to connect mine to my router - and pay a company to send it down the pipe to me...

it comes pre-installed now? 🙂 🙂 🙂

[jolly prism]

Why not?

[opaque raven]

Wanna make a serious video on YouTube about it?
Ok, first remove monetization from it, now I will take it seriously and not just drama/view farming

[outer cobalt]

dude coulda say "So and so law stated here is undefined when so and so happens. This is what we propose."

[remote briar]

Yes, and the majority of games already can do that with no problem

[opaque raven]

But I only saw one person so far doing it....so....ye

[outer cobalt]

No, they cant LMAO

[idle hill]

I wish, haha

[outer cobalt]

game devs arent going to be just giving away art and music ip for free.

[remote briar]

Yes, they can. All single player games with no online connection can

[ionic sleet]

Because the damage is done

[placid plover]

🍞

[outer cobalt]

what does it mean to the artists and musicians that made them?

[remote briar]

Who said they have to?

[outer cobalt]

to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

[jolly prism]

What damage? This is directly from the EU site:
*This meeting is held within 1 month of the date when the organisers submitted the initiative.

It consists of a structured discussion on the content of the initiative, to ensure the Commission has a clear understanding of its objectives (including any clarifications needed), before it prepares its answer.*

[outer cobalt]

prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers

dude

[opaque raven]

I...I don't wanna do this anymore...

[ionic sleet]

I think you confused me

[outer cobalt]

read the proposal. there's no point in discussing further amendments if they dont want to take down the original proposal.

[remote briar]

YES, so people can PLAY it. They don't get all the assets and such

[ionic sleet]

there this

[outer cobalt]

you are suggesting people play the game without any art or music involved?

are you serious lmao

[ionic sleet]

what if the licensed stuff was used to create the game engine

[idle hill]

https://tenor.com/view/i-have-an-idea-croods-grug-the-croods-gif-9990053463233283167

[outer cobalt]

like the game devs just build a game with everything zeroed out, white rectangles for everything, music all zero'ed

[remote briar]

No, obviously not, but games are already made, so u can download then locally and play them offline with no problems

[worthy ivy]

how will we play without the assets? and say there's a bug with texture mapping or alpha channels or whatever, and all the assets are bundled up in a proprietry "WAD" style format - does the company have to opensource their internal data management tools to allow the game to be maintained after "sunset"?

[jolly prism]

The entire initiative/collecting would have to start again. They can still clarify the existing initiative with the Commission after enough support is gathered.

[worthy ivy]

and do with think that EU lawmakers will bother to ask any of these questons?

[remote briar]

For those game nothing would have to be done to leave them playable except making sure they can be downloaded for at least a period of time after shutdown

[outer cobalt]

then you are asking them to give away IP for free. i think you, like the original proposer who made SKG simply did not think this through.

the general worst (or best) case is that all the art and music goes to public domain

[ionic sleet]

oh i see i forgot to mention they would have to restart the initiative. my bad

[opaque raven]

I swear to god the Dunning-Kruger curve should be pinned on the channel

[outer cobalt]

what gamers could have done: paid for the game so the game devs could sustain the servers

[idle hill]

Oh dear god that means all game assets would be able to be used in genAI

[remote briar]

I'm sorry, I may be mistaken, but isn't all of these already accesible by the user, if they can download the game and play it offline?

[outer cobalt]

what gamers are doing: asking for game devs to let them play for free after the initial buy-in which may or may not even exist, for f2p games.

[outer cobalt]

yes, but it is protected by existing copyright laws and licensing laws. you cannot resell a game without approval.

[pseudo grove]

Exactly, it’s possible, that’s why I mentioned earlier that it’s not impossible. We can find a way to let players truly own their games while also keeping developers protected and satisfied.

Will it be easy? No
Will it require smart, competent developers? Absolutely.
It will also require creativity and extra effort from devs, but I believe gamers truly deserve that.

[opaque raven]

At this point I just want AI to take over and end the world as soon as possible

[jolly prism]

Yes, that is literally their job. In any case they have experts they can (and will) turn to for opinions - if it even goes that far.

[remote briar]

Yes, and the initiative doesn't say u can

[paper wasp]

I sure do love video games

[outer cobalt]

yes

[ionic sleet]

Take a 1000 piece puzzle and put it together. each piece has a different owner with their own permissions. taking some out will ruin the overall puzzle.

[idle hill]

Make it quick

[opaque raven]

Prove it

[worthy ivy]

you have too much faith in the system padawan

[outer cobalt]

at some point this may even mean you can pass a compiled game into LRMs and have them learn how to make the game.

[worthy ivy]

DMCA has entered the chat

[opaque raven]

If you really love video games show many hrs you have on League of Legends and Megaman X7

[jolly prism]

The system will work like this no matter if you believe in it or not. The outcome is what is not certain (as always).

[outer cobalt]

its already possible with some compiled binaries.

[ionic sleet]

People are skipping too many steps lol

[remote briar]

Yes, gamers wanna be able to use a product they've paid for

[ionic sleet]

define "product" and "paid for" then

[outer cobalt]

gamers didnt read the fine print that they are buying a license on game advertised to be online

[worthy ivy]

the uncertain outcome is kind of the problem for me - vagueness and legislation are unhappy bedfellows

[remote briar]

Yes, and the argument is that thise licenses may be unfair

[pseudo grove]

I agree, and that’s precisely why governments need to provide protections for developers and companies when necessary. Each case must be handled carefully to ensure no party suffers unfairly, with fairness being the priority throughout the process.

[idle hill]

MAY be
so are they or are they not
and if they are unfair, then how?

[ionic sleet]

Everything is just so entangled. like trying to Fix a slinky.

[outer cobalt]

what i think is that modding a game shouldnt be illegal. so allow users to mod the online parts out of their game.

let them reverse engineer servers via modding.

[remote briar]

Please, watch the FAQ Ross put out as a initial response to some of Thor's concerns. It would answer a lot of the questions and concerns u seem to have

[idle hill]

TF2 and Minecraft enter the room

[worthy ivy]

now, "single player games requiring authentication via publisher servers must take steps to ensure there is a workaround in place for when the servers are no longer up"... I could get behind that all day

but the issue is the language - "all games"?
and how do we define "playable state"?

are we really gonna leave that down to the EU to decide?
are we mad?

[ionic sleet]

the first part is fine but the second involves IP stuff

[outer cobalt]

no. i will only follow the eu proposal, and thats what they submitted to the eu iniative.

[pseudo grove]

Gamers want the freedom to play their games whenever they choose, and companies need to sustain their business.

I’m confident we can find a balanced solution that satisfies both sides.

[ionic sleet]

yes this should have been the initiative instead

[shy mist]

this thing about art and music having to be given to everyone for their own use is weird.

Package the assets in a client executable/ folders in the same way as now, provide that.
Package the server needed stuff, provide that.
When sunsetting, provide a way so that the consumers can tweak where the server requests are sent to, so the game can be hosted by someone else if need be.

Art and music would be no different to how they are now when you download a game, would they?

[outer cobalt]

allow game modding after games are sunset.

[opaque raven]

But...what about all the arguments around running on monetized social media??? Those that are not covered but explained on monetized videos?!! You can't ignore those

[worthy ivy]

until assets need to be modified in order to keep the game "playable" after some unreal engine update breaks something - then what?

devs open source their internal asset packaging/editing tools?

[remote briar]

Alright then discussion is pointless

[worthy ivy]

what if they have an internal custom IDE they use, should that also be opensourced?

where do we draw the line?

I don't trust the EUj to draw it cerainly

[outer cobalt]

exactly

[worthy ivy]

*certainly

[pseudo grove]

I'm not a lawmaker, but I trust the EU will aim to get it right, after all, maintaining a good reputation is crucial for them, and I don't believe they'd want to risk damaging it.

[outer cobalt]

also the EU : https://www.euronews.com/green/2024/07/02/why-are-bottle-caps-attached-to-the-bottle-inside-the-eu-directive-causing-drink-spills-ev

In the EU, plastic bottle caps on single-use plastic bottles are now required to be tethered to the bottle

[worthy ivy]

the EU will only look at the proposal - they won't read the FAQ either

[opaque raven]

No reason to

[shy mist]

are you also concerned they would make manufacturers of games in cartridges and DVD's to provide their cartridge manufacturing machines? 🙄

In case theres an update to Unreal Engine

[outer cobalt]

Exactly

we should force nintendo to allow modding.

[idle hill]

A problem created by consumers, forced to be fixed by manufacturers...

[worthy ivy]

pssst, got a top notch bridge here, only one careful previous owner, dirt cheap if you're interested? 🙂

[ionic sleet]

I just don't think Live service games can be preserved without explicit permission from the IP holders.

Its better to focus on the other aspects in the gaming industry and then start to define terminology regarding live service games like further exploring licenses etc.

[remote briar]

The people behind the FAQ will get to talk with them to expand upon the initiative. That is how it's supposed to work. The page has a character limit

[jolly prism]

*This meeting is held within 1 month of the date when the organisers submitted the initiative.

It consists of a structured discussion on the content of the initiative, to ensure the Commission has a clear understanding of its objectives (including any clarifications needed), before it prepares its answer.*

[urban venture]

who is going to preserve my favorite gacha simulator? I pull the lever DING DING DING I get a girl, who will preserve this?

[pseudo grove]

While the EU may primarily focus on the formal proposal, I believe these discussions typically involve thorough analysis of all supporting documents, including FAQs, stakeholder feedback, and impact assessments. Given the complexity and potential impact of such regulations, I believe they will carefully review all relevant information to make a well informed decision.

[opaque raven]

At first I thought this was crazy weird and "why the frick do we even need this?" But honestly, it has been around for a while and it's pretty good in many senses

[remote briar]

Yes, and?

[opaque raven]

Like REALLY good

[outer cobalt]

the most likely outcome is that they will defer or delay to a date in the future that is unspecified.

[outer cobalt]

the eu does not trust its citizens to do the right thing

[worthy ivy]

not trying to be difficult on this, but I am directly impacted by DMCA (specifically the subsection regarding "digital DJs") and it's a bag of wonk

to comply with the rules, I must keep all of my digital tracks on one single harddrive - I am not technically allowed to put them onto memory sticks to plug into the decks...

that's that way because the EU/UK politicians pass laws about shit they don't understand using technology they don't understand, in an industry they don't really care about...

I speak from personal experience here

[fickle bluff]

As the copyright holder, the company will still be attached to everything people do with it's IP, which will leave it vulnerable. I've previously outlined a possible scenario: #streamchat message

[remote briar]

Okay, that's just silly

[high ember]

yeah, when i was visiting the UK and the Netherlands i thought it was really neat
i didn't need to carry the lid around in my hand while holding the bottle

[worthy ivy]

no, EU citizens do not trust the EU to do the right thing 🙂

[ionic sleet]

the CCTV cameras paint a picture

[idle hill]

I do the right thing and have a reusable bottle

[jolly prism]

We mostly still do. You just decided to leave and see how well that went for you

[opaque raven]

Have you been to ||insert countries and cities that I can't openly name but you can imagine||?? It's crazy how much trash and plastic it's on the streets

[outer cobalt]

Exactly

[worthy ivy]

spolier alert.... it's not going well 😦

[pseudo grove]

That’s a valid concern, as regulatory processes can often experience delays. However, considering public interest and pressure around consumer rights in digital goods (1 million signatures), I believe the EU will prioritize advancing this matter rather than indefinitely postponing it. Moreover, delays might risk political and public backlash, so a clear timeline and decisive action would be in their best interest to maintain credibility and public trust.

[worthy ivy]

better to be inside the tent and try to reform it than be outside looking in going "noooooooooo"

[high ember]

obligatory I miss Greggs

[outer cobalt]

I really dont think gamers and game devs are in anyway a “substantial part of society”

both gamers and game devs are fringe communities.

gamers wanting to making it hard for game devs to make games for gamers is a dumb self-own

[opaque raven]

Idk how it is on the US but at least here on the north recycling is a big deal, and honestly the cap being attached helps a lot in not leaving plastic behind. Be it by mistake or anything.
I totally understand seeing it as silly, I also thought so at first, but now I see it as a big help for all sides

[shy mist]

Thats actually a very cool point and worth discussing about, thank you.

I do not think this is what people were saying with "you'll have to give the art and music to the consumers" and so on. Seemed more to be that they would force developers to give raw assets or otherwise it would not work

[opaque raven]

Also we had cases on ||some countries|| where plastic caps were clogging the streets during rain...it was...icky

[remote briar]

Gamers wanting to be protected by abusive practices is fair and reasonable

[pseudo grove]

Well, the gaming industry generates billions in revenue annually and employs millions of people worldwide, contributing substantially to the economy and cultural landscape. Moreover, gaming has become a mainstream form of entertainment and social interaction , reaching diverse demographics across age groups and regions. So, while they might once have been considered niche, today they are very much a substantial part of society .

[idle hill]

thanks, you reminded me of this.

[high ember]

lmao

[proud coral]

https://tenor.com/view/wind-windy-bag-gif-7951907

[outer cobalt]

i dont see anything that contradicts any of our claims

[pseudo grove]

If this conflict between developers and consumers continues (dev vs gamer), it won’t benefit anyone. It’s like buying a car and the seller refuses to acknowledge that we want to keep the car permanently. Finding common ground is essential for a healthy industry that serves both sides. 🤝

[outer cobalt]

you are counting mobile gamers ig

[outer cobalt]

which is why im suggesting modding.

gamers get to mod the game they bought

devs get to keep whatever ip they have

i dont think you are aware of the many ways they can discuss it so that it gets delayed

aka "not take action"

[pseudo grove]

Yes, I’m including all types of games, including mobile, although I recognize mobile presents its own unique challenges.

[outer cobalt]

or "take action in a much later date after discussion with yadayadayada"

[idle hill]

bu t that requires learning how to mod, and we don't wanna learn!!1! That takes effort!

[outer cobalt]

The Commission is not obliged to propose legislation. Even where it responds positively, the most appropriate follow-up to an initiative may be non-legislative in nature. There are a range of other measures that may be more suitable.

[wet storm]

All good, thanks for sharing. I was mostly just curious, my horse is already in this race.

[outer cobalt]

the initiative covers all games, including mobile. i really think modding is the best way to do this

[fickle bluff]

I'm pretty sure people meant the same I did, just worded it differently, 'cause the only way to avoid potential legal repercussions is to give up IP rights, so that company has no legal attachments to anything people do with the game.

[wet storm]

I am firing lasers at your direction

[outer cobalt]

force companies like nintendo to allow modding so their games can be played once bought

mind you nintendo is the real culprit behind all of this

[pseudo grove]

That could be a viable solution in specific cases . It would require a thorough discussion between both parties 🗣️ , focusing on collaboration rather than conflict. 🤝

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-dodge-dancing-gif-9449699

[outer cobalt]

their games require online updates, but they can shut down online services whenever they please.

[idle hill]

People already disable telemetry on Microsoft products. Do people really think they won't be able to remove the server requirement from games?

[outer cobalt]

they also litigate modding in every way or form

[outer cobalt]

as long as modding is legal.

but scummy game devs like nintendo sue modders

within 1 month they say they are not going to take action. end of story

OR

within 1 month they say they might take action after further discussion. end of story

[pseudo grove]

I just hope the best solution emerges soon, as ongoing tension isn’t beneficial for either party involved

[outer cobalt]

in what perfect world do you expect them to ALWAYS give a sastifactory answer

[shy mist]

is this transforming into an argument of "I don't trust government to pass good stuff so I won't engage with it?"

[outer cobalt]

which is why i think the entire initiative should have had input from game devs from the start. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[idle hill]

They're just jealous I made Braixen hotter.
I mean- 🫢

[outer cobalt]

one needs to first provide a clearly worded, actionable initiative

[shy mist]

but if you did word it perfectly, they could still decide to not act in the way you described, right? so I was not sure what was the point of that line of discussion

[outer cobalt]

for example, "modding or modifying a game after its bought should be legal as long as its within fair use"

simple. easy. the perfect solution.

only company that would raise hell: nintendo.

[idle hill]

Then the problem comes with fair use...

[outer cobalt]

fair use is very well defined.

dont ask for money.

dont monetise it

dont assume copyrights

we have a very well framework for protecting ip via fair use

[pseudo grove]

Devs absolutely must be involved , they are the ones creating the games . But we also can't forget that gamers are the customers paying for them, so input from both sides is essential for a balanced approach. 🤝

[idle hill]

But muh react streamers

[outer cobalt]

but thats not whats going on here

This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.

The initiative does not seek to acquire ownership of said videogames, associated intellectual rights or monetization rights, neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state.

does any of this work with existing legislation?

[idle hill]

That last paragraph kind of contradicts itself dont you think

[outer cobalt]

at some point people are going to ask for deployment docs, server setup etc etc etc. where are all of these documents hosted?

what about human expertise required to run some of these custom systems?

its just a dumb proposal either way

[idle hill]

It doesn't seek to claim ownership of the videogames... well what the hell are they claiming ownership of?
It doesn't allow IP or monetization rights. They can't have the game, which means no assets or servers.

[shy mist]

the last paragraph is basically saying that they want games to be left in a state where they can be self-hosted and functional at time of sunset

[idle hill]

It says it doesn't "expect developers to provide resources" to host servers. That's what's tripping me up.

[outer cobalt]

What happens if the game devs decide to sell copyrights to another company and said company changes copyright to never allow any usage or modification

Does that make all private servers illegal

🤣

It is obvious that people who started this proposal have no idea what a reasonable proposal is

[pseudo grove]

I see why it might seem contradictory at first glance 🤔

What the last paragraph aims to clarify is that while the initiative requires games to remain playable even after discontinuation, it does not claim to transfer ownership or intellectual property rights to consumers, nor does it obligate publishers to continue providing ongoing support or updates.

The focus is on preserving access, not on extending the publisher’s responsibilities indefinitely.

Note: I am not a lawyer 🧑‍⚖️ , is just my take on it.

[idle hill]

I mean sure they could leave the game as is on the hard drive
but wouldn't that be giving the end user ownership of those game assets as well?

[outer cobalt]

Preserving access is extending responsibility

Someone has to host or make available these binaries

Who is going to do that?

Store it on ethereum?

[idle hill]

I guess you could argue "it doesn't seek to do this", but it ends up becoming necessary in order to fulfill the request

[outer cobalt]

Say there is a huge security issue in the original games that let attackers take control of your computer

Is it the game devs responsibility to patch it for you?

[pseudo grove]

That's a valid point, preserving access does imply some level of responsibility.
However, the initiative encourages finding practical solutions, such as requiring publishers to provide necessary files or enabling community driven hosting options, rather than mandating indefinite support or costly infrastructure from the publishers themselves.

[idle hill]

Behold, the 2b2t of (X) game!

[outer cobalt]

Just allow modding and pretty much most of these issues are solved. There is a technical solution to have games survive

[outer cobalt]

The requirement to provide implicitly requires some form of hosting

[idle hill]

May have to elaborate on that one
Allow modding SPECIFICALLY for the purposes of removing online restrictions of game content

[outer cobalt]

Allow modding of ANY form as long as it falls under fair use

including emulating said game

nintendo again, is the main problem

[pseudo grove]

It’s similar to selling you a car, even if I stop providing support, I still give you the necessary tools and instructions to keep it running in **reasonable **condition. The idea isn’t to force publishers to maintain ongoing infrastructure indefinitely, but to ensure that consumers can continue to use what they’ve purchased in a fair and practical way

[shy mist]

it would not be the devs responsibility. I imagine there would be a big range, depending on dev wishes.

From just a package that is equivalent to what buying a DVD game was, which is, a fixed version that is only guaranteed to work in some versions of a specific console / OS.
To other devs giving away all the source files so the game can be maintained like open source.

Each case would have its own possibilities and desires, as long as the base is met. (Functionality at sunset)

[idle hill]

My main concern is the plugins that could be used to exploit vulnerabilities in an online game
Maybe my suggestion is too strict, but the concern is still there

[outer cobalt]

The responsibility to install plugins and mods lie on the user. We dont govern what users do

but we expand the “right to repair” to games

[outer cobalt]

Whose responsibility is it if the provided manuals have a security flaw

[pseudo grove]

Developers could provide a fixed version of the game prior to purchase, along with clear instructions on how to run it. This would ensure functionality without requiring ongoing support. Also, depending on the developer’s willingness, some might even choose to release source files for community maintenance, but the key is that a playable version is guaranteed at the point of sale.

[outer cobalt]

Security is always evolving. Requiring the devs to also deal with security means they would be responsible indefinitely

[shy mist]

exactly yeah, we are saying the same thing

[idle hill]

Maybe an addition along the lines of "so long as the modification does not grant the user an unfair advantage above other users of the software, or violate their legal rights"
I know it's already usually in TOS/EULA for online games but I feel that would need to be clarified if we're modding games in general

that removed the reply oops

[idle hill]

responding to this

it would have to apply specifically to user hosted servers, because of course people would be fine using it singleplayer

[outer cobalt]

Single player tho

[pseudo grove]

Developers can offer guidance and assistance regarding security, but ultimately it is the customer’s responsibility to maintain their own security and protect their systems. Clear disclaimers and best practices should be provided, but users must remain fully vigilant in safeguarding their own environments, especially since developers will no longer provide support, so gamers need to be smart and make the best use of what’s available.

Is like the car is broken or unsafe 🏎️ , so customer check the manual and try to fix it with the community.

[idle hill]

yes I'm aware singleplayer would be fine, the addition is SOLELY for online servers

this is where it starts to get muddy in creating legislation

[opaque raven]

Man, this Warhammer game looks crazy cool but...looks like a LOT of lore around it, might not be healthy for me to get into it

Lore and games and books and (...)

[pseudo grove]

Developers’ creativity must be protected to allow them to work as freely as possible. Genuine gamers appreciate and support this freedom and do not wish to impose unnecessary limitations on developers. Is what I think... may I be wrong?

[idle hill]

warhammer is a bundle of eggs I dont wanna mess with in terms of lore

I played Mechanicus, I'm happy with that

I feel like what Thor just said was extremely important

[opaque raven]

I wouldn't even know where to start and honestly...might be better to not dive on this pool
I have 2 friends who play the board game, like, competitively, if they realize I'm getting a slight interest in this I'm screwed

[wet storm]

Oh we're talking warhammer?

[worthy ivy]

soooooo much lore

[terse pelican]

Warhammer 401k.

[dreamy oasis]

There's two types of people in this world. Those who know normal life knowledge, history, how society works, etc etc. And then there's those who only know warhammer

[wet storm]

Hold on lemme break out my boi

My pride and joy

[worthy ivy]

more lore than if a bunch of lore writers invented a lore-making-machine that just spooged lore everywhere

[wet storm]

Hand jumpscare

This book is 20 years old

Look at the tasteful thickness of it

I got it for £50 on ebay, near mint condition

[idle hill]

Thor just said what was talked about an hour or so ago: The negative things people are saying about Thor and the Ferret Rescue is absolutely vile and he doesn't want anything to do with the SKG initiative anymore. He doesn't support it, and it's at a point where he feels he can't even have a discussion about it anymore.

[opaque raven]

I just asked if the weapons are based on technology or "magic" on chat and I got sooooo much lore out of nowhere

[wet storm]

It's the TTRPG with the absolute best class progression system out there

Undefeated

[wet storm]

There was an ork that really liked his gun

He liked his gun so much he went back in time to kill his past self and have two of the same gun

(the book I shared isn't 40k tho)

[opaque raven]

I also learned to not call Warhammer StarCraft 🔥

[wet storm]

Don't call warhammer fantasy WarCraft either

[nova bough]

cat

[idle hill]

I wish I clipped what he said because that was powerful, showed evidence since people were claiming there was none

[opaque raven]

I'm not, someone did

[wet storm]

FUNNY STORY Thor's dad is the coolest dude

I asked on his stream

He was playing warcraft 1

[gentle mortar]

you still can in a VOD

[wet storm]

"Hey mr Thor's Dad you made this game, was it or was it not inspired by Warhammer, and did you guys have like a licensing agreement that went south?"

Apparently he wasn't aware of it then

[idle hill]

cant clip it live on YT mobile afaik

[opaque raven]

I'm calling it Doom + Helldivers

[gentle mortar]

shit, didnt know that

[wet storm]

There's a unit on Fantasy called the Doom Diver Catapult

It's a goblin on a slingshot

[opaque raven]

At least thats how this game looks
Space Marines 2

[wet storm]

Look at 'em go

[idle hill]

I'm used to Twitch on PC, where you could clip it live and edit it and such. But my internet is also slow to the point it can't handle clipping in 1080p

[wet storm]

Ah thor is playing spehss mehreens

[opaque raven]

Oooo this sounds so cool

[opaque raven]

Aren't the other games like this one?

[idle hill]

I stopped using Twitch because I don't have the money to pay for a sub and I somehow haven't gotten an ad on YT mobile for the past year or two

[opaque raven]

I mean, multiplayer, pew pew pew, helldivers style

[wet storm]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grizgutz
"Grizgutz is an Ork Warlord who launched a Waaagh! into the Morloq system.

Using warp travel, Grizgutz and his Boyz unwittingly travelled back in time and emerged back into the materium shortly before they departed. A noted kleptomaniac, Grizgutz killed his earlier self so he could have his favourite gun as a spare. However, the resulting confusion caused by this turn of events threw Grizgutz's Waaagh! into disarray."

[idle hill]

I don't have YT Premium, yet I don't recieve ads, it's odd

[wet storm]

OI DA BOSS KRUMPED DA BOSS

[idle hill]

I know for a fact I'm not getting charged for it

[terse pelican]

On the Topic of Warhammer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_28PFlQGhU

[wet storm]

Not that I'm aware, there's no over the shoulder shooters in the warhammer universe

Besides Spehss Mehreen 1 and 2

[nova bough]

ad blockers?

[opaque raven]

Are the guys in armor humans?

[idle hill]

Nope!

[nova bough]

huh. interesting

[idle hill]

No ad blockers for YT mobile without using a separate app, which I don't have either.

[dusky grove]

yes... mostly...

[nova bough]

oh yea i was assuming PC

[wet storm]

Sorta like supersoldier humans

They undergo very intense biotreatments through drugs, and surgery to implant a dozen and a half organs to make them stronger and faster

[dusky grove]

IIRC ultramarines are like clones or smth

[wet storm]

Then they put them in power armour

[idle hill]

PC absolutely has tracker blockers

[wet storm]

But there are other humans in power armour, just smaller. It's much rarer too, only the bigwigs have those

[opaque raven]

Can they survive outside the armor after the modifications?

[wet storm]

Ya

They remove it for maintenance and repair

[idle hill]

It would be odd for astartes to not survive outside the armor... but I can see a world where the armor is made into part of their body, and it sounds extremely agonizing.

[wet storm]

POV from a Chaos Space Marine

[idle hill]

Oh no, it already exists

[wet storm]

Plague Marines couldn't remove their armour if they wanted

Obliterators literally fuse with their armour

There's a record of someone infected with the Obliterator virus and it's...pure horror

[opaque raven]

I sort of assumed they were build and modified to be soldiers and that's it, that's their life from now on

[terse pelican]

Thousand Sons are technically only their armor are they not?

[opaque raven]

So no reason to remove the armor

[idle hill]

Drafting with extra steps

[wet storm]

It makes you fuse with armour and weapons and have them come out of you when you need them, but slowly makes your joints stiff and mechanical

[gentle mortar]

@idle hill Done.
https://www.twitch.tv/piratesoftware/clip/SeductiveTenuousTeaPanicBasket-wygTH5vZ6Kz_Qz2G

[wet storm]

It depends on the chapter. The game THor is playing is about the Ultramarines. They're kinda practical and such. Marines exercise, pray, engage in games and recreation.

Those they do without armour

[opaque raven]

Is the idea similar to helldivers like you fight for a planet/country/democracy

?

[wet storm]

Also if the armour malfunctions, gotta take it out for repairs

[idle hill]

THANK YOU!

[wet storm]

Yes. If they're sending marines, that planet is FUBAR

Normally they'd send the imperial guard, or the planet's own Planetary Defense Force, which is also normally former Guard or just conscripts.

Marines are for truly messy endeavours

Mostly because there's so few of them

[opaque raven]

This looks like a very violent universe

[wet storm]

Oh yes

Dude's melee weapon is a chainsaw

It's violent to the point it's ridiculous. I love it

[opaque raven]

Why is it called 40.000 tho?

[idle hill]

now I'm motivated to get up and edit that clip
maybe grab the part immediately before it for the full context

[wet storm]

Because it's set in the year of our lord 40000

[opaque raven]

Oh

[wet storm]

The 41st millenium,

[opaque raven]

So there is also a bit of religion goin on, is that it?

[wet storm]

There was this dude, the Emperor. His goal was to end all religion, as belief materializes in the Warp (basically hell), and empowers the gods therein

He got murderboned by one of the big wig marines turned traitor

[worthy ivy]

which browser you using? started using Brave a while back and have managed to forget that youtube even has ads 🙂

[wet storm]

Except he didn't die, they put him on life support, and started worshipping him as the god emperor

So there's a massive galaxy spanning cult worshipping him

[warm trench]

Warhammer has everything a perfect dystopia needs. Corpse Starch.

[opaque raven]

So hell is a place where belief gains form, ok, let's nuke hell thn

[wet storm]

(they didn't take notes from Dune, they stole the entire thing)

[wet storm]

Problem is that hell is infinite

[idle hill]

I recently switched to Waterfox, it uses all the same addons and settings as Firefox, with a little more privacy focus I may have forgor

[worthy ivy]

the galaxy-spanning god-emperor thing does feel a bit "dune"y

[wet storm]

If you read how the emperor unified terra the entire thing is just Dune haha

Dune with the serial numbers filed off

[opaque raven]

Please, PLEASE don't kill me for saying this but...
**Just like Kingdom Hearts ☀️ **

[idle hill]

So we don't have to worry about filling it with Heretics! Wonderful!

[wet storm]

LOL

I'm not sanctimonius, it's just a make believe story

[worthy ivy]

but I give them a pass - orks are basically tolkien orcs in space - eldar are space-elves, there's space-undead...
they tick all of the high fantasy boxes, repackaged in a sci-fi grimdark setting...
love me a bit of 40k lore

[wet storm]

I was a DM for tabletop games for Dark Heresy (you play as the inquisition), Rogue Trader (you play as a space billionaire), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, all flavours. The setting is massively well developed

[opaque raven]

Can you get to hell? Physically go there

[wet storm]

Yes

[opaque raven]

Or better yet, is hell that important?

[wet storm]

The chapter master of the Grey Knights (a space marine chapter) is stuck there

[wet storm]

It's typically a bad idea and useless to go there to begin with, 'cos it's endless. Usually they just prevent hell from coming our way

[worthy ivy]

40k is almost older than I am - they've had time to weave it - bit of retconning here and there, but for the most part the lore is consistent afaik

[wet storm]

Except, of course, for FTL

[dusky grove]

hell is where the gods are, and it gives people psychic powers

[idle hill]

I can feel the exhaustion in Thor's voice. I hope he's been getting proper rest... can't help but feel I've been contributing to the arguments after he said "don't talk about SKG in the chat, that's not what we're here for. My chat is not your soap box."

[wet storm]

The Imperium travels faster-than-light by taking a shortcut through hell

[opaque raven]

Was thinking of expeditions to understand it

[wet storm]

They open a hole in reality to literal hell, enter it, and hope they come out the correct way

[dusky grove]

just like minecraft

[wet storm]

LOL

YES HAHAHAHA

[dusky grove]

I hate that I just said that

[wet storm]

OMG I NEVER THOUGH OF THAT

[opaque raven]

But maybe this universe is too aggressive for learning expeditions

[wet storm]

The tricky thing the Warp doesn't want you to leave

There's people that try to commune and they end up possessed

Think Diablo

When one of the prime evils (I forgot which) possessed the guy

I think it was Baal?

[opaque raven]

The """Waaaarrrppp""" can't tell me what to do!!! Karen Marine 40K deployed

[idle hill]

erm acktually you only move 8x faster in Hell because 1 block in hell is 8 in the overworld!

[worthy ivy]

you stare into the warp and the warp stares back

[dusky grove]

40k is the pioneer of the grimdark genre, a genre where there are no "heroes" just protagonists and everyone gets a sad ending at the end of the day

[wet storm]

That's part of the story between the two Space Marine games, but I won't go into detail 'cos thats spoilies

[opaque raven]

Hmmmmmm dune

[wet storm]

The deliciousness of the setting is hopelessness

[opaque raven]

Idk how old Warhammer is actually

[wet storm]

When you die, there's only the Warp

Alive, there's the Imperium

[dusky grove]

personally not my cup of tea but I seem to be surrounded by people that like it over the years so I've osmosis'd some knowledge

[opaque raven]

But dune is very, veeeeeery old

[wet storm]

Can't win, make the most of it

[worthy ivy]

unless you're a chaos god, then it's just one big "torment the corporeals" party

they're having a good time

[warm trench]

Your productivity human, is lacking.

[worthy ivy]

and I reckon the Tyranids are loving it too

[opaque raven]

Is the universe in any form of grave danger or is it more about races/creeds fighting?

[worthy ivy]

and the Orks in fact - they love a good bit of war

[wet storm]

@worthy ivy I'mma about to rain on your parade

The chaos gods themselves are tragic

They're not sentient

[dusky grove]

If i were to guess, i would say it came out in the 80s

[wet storm]

They're forces of nature shackled by their own natures

Khorne is physically incapable of calming down

And the Tyranids are running away from something worse

[worthy ivy]

ah, that changes things then....

but the Tyranids are doing well - or are they not sentient either? i think they'd have to be?

[idle hill]

Hey, I used to have a headset like that!
Before it BROKE at that swiveling joint

[dusky grove]

1987* 40k is indeed from the 80s

[worthy ivy]

nah, that's just what they say to make people feel sorry for them

[wet storm]

Ok, the Orks yeah

They're having fun

[worthy ivy]

waaaaaaaagggghhh!

[idle hill]

Got me a pair of gaming headphones that dont do the dumb swiveling thing that breaks on every set I buy

[wet storm]

I think there's an ork stuck in the warp fighting khorne daemons for eternity

[fickle bluff]

Tyranids. The cosmic hunger. Highly adaptable biomorphs with a single purpose of consuming every bit of biomass there is. Their fleet is larger than entire galaxy.

[wet storm]

He's having the best time

[worthy ivy]

imperial guard have a bad deal tho

[wet storm]

IG is the borkiest of them

They have a life expectancy of 15 hours

[worthy ivy]

get in there, get dead, then let the space marines sort it out after you're all eaten

bad deal

[wet storm]

They're a hive mind

Segregated by the hive fleets

The hive mind is sentient

And just wants to live

[fluid dome]

Dune Awakening got a wicked update I see

[wet storm]

Then you hit the warp and hope that you don't get gobbled by daemons

And instead found by some manifestation of the emperor or one of the dozens images the Imperium worships

[kindred holly]

I woke up to see that I missed a rare Shaye stream. Dammit.

[wet storm]

Which are themselves daemons but don't tell the local inquisitor I said that

[opaque raven]

Wait, question, if belief is bad since it makes hell stronger

What's the deal with all the "heresy" thing? Sounds like the space marines are very religious now

[wet storm]

Heresy invites corruption

It's half and half control and prevention

The Echesiarchy (religious body) controls a lot, and fear is their weapon

[idle hill]

What would happen if you believed that believing... made Hell weaker? Is that a paradox? Is it covered? Or does it do nothing?

[wet storm]

Now you're thinking like a true Emperor of Mankind

That's what he tried to do

[idle hill]

No way

[opaque raven]

Are the marines seen as heroes on some planets? Like savior freeing them from demons and heresy

[wet storm]

Oh yeah to complete this thought, someone going heretical like "hey the chaos gods aren't so bad" is a lubed tobogan straight into mutation and possession

[wet storm]

They're seen as angels

[opaque raven]

Or do you have to constantly enforce on minor parties your believe?

Wow

Wwooooowww

[idle hill]

Now I'm intrigued, what was the result?

[wet storm]

Angels of death but angels nonetheless

[opaque raven]

Like Old Testament god of sorts?

[wet storm]

He made the space marines, 20 legions. 10 of them turned traitor. His favourite son, Horus Lupercal, fought him and mortally wounded him.

He was placed in life support and is now a skeleton, worshipped as a god, exactly what he tried to avoid

I'm not gonna go into detail 'cos I'd spend like hours typing

[worthy ivy]

yarp - first sign of chaos possession is heretical ideas - maybe they're not possessed? maybe they just have a new idea?

but we can't take that chance right?

burn the heretic!!!!

[idle hill]

I can imagine it worked initially, but it backfired in the sense that his own belief worked

[wet storm]

Theres like 10 novels from the Horus Heresy series that go into detail

[opaque raven]

Was hell discovered, invented or was it always there?

[wet storm]

It was always there, and wasn't always hell

Oh boy

[opaque raven]

Oh

[wet storm]

So a gagillion years ago, there were two very cool species

[fickle bluff]

Correction: 9 of them turned traitor, 9 remained loyal.

[wet storm]

The Old Ones, and the Necrontyr

The Old Ones were immortal frogs, the Necrontyr lived in a horrible irradiated planet. They didn't build houses, they built tombs

The Necrontyr were jealous of the Old Gods because they were immortal, and the Old Gods shunned the Necrontyr 'cos they were stinky

[idle hill]

My mind is so rotted I immediately went to "DID THEY DO EACH OTHER???"

Thanks internet

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/bromance-sig-curtis-alex-louis-armstrong-fullmetal-fma-gif-18194534

[wet storm]

The Necrontyr noticed there were some cool star eating celestial fart gas eating the radiation from their star. So they lured it into their planet and shoved it into a giant mech suit made of living metal with a supercomputer inside

They then did it to the entire species of celestial fart gas

Turning them into the C'tan, the gods of the Necrontyr

[proud coral]

https://tenor.com/view/fma-armstrong-alex-louis-armstrong-fullmetal-alchemist-flex-gif-22210748

[wet storm]

Being now supersmart and supergiant, they calculated that souls are much more delicious than radiation, so they ate all the Necrontyr souls and turned them into robots of living metal, now called the Necrons

These guys

They then thought, hey, those Old Ones must have much more delicious souls, so let's fight them and eat them

[opaque raven]

Uhum uhum
Reading, learning

[wet storm]

The Old Ones, being frogs, couldn't fight, so they biologically forcefully evolved two races. The Eldar (space elves) and the Krorks (GIANT GREEN MEN THAT LOVE FIGHTING AND WINNING)

Massive war erupted, called the War of Heaven

The Old Ones won, by somehow (I forgot) making the C'tan infight and destroy themselves from within. But many lives were lost

All those eaten necrontyr souls, bitter and angry, and all those dead Eldar and Old Ones poisoned the afterlife known as the Realm of Souls

The first Daemons emerged

Turning it into the Warp

The Daemons had the same thought where the Old Ones must have delicious souls

So they got attacked AGAIN and all but went extinct

The Necrons went to eepy eep because the megabrains controlling them went dead, the eldar decided to bone indefinitely forever and do each other in ways best left unspoken, the krorks were left without someone to fight, shrunk and became orks

Hundreds of thousands of years pass and man leaves a cave after discovering fire

That's the genesis tale of Warhammer

Thanks for reading remember to like and subscribe

Damn I monopolized chat, sorry folks hahaha

[fickle bluff]

Eldar literally murder-boned a chaos god into existence

Probably my favorite part of the lore

Alongside orcs

They're the only happy people in the grimdark of 40k

[opaque raven]

Uhum uhum
Reading, learning

[wet storm]

My headcannon is some space elf edged for a hundred thousand years and when someone tapped them in the shoulder to ask a question Slannesh simply exploded into existence

[opaque raven]

I'm also picking the most important things and looking at something called Lexicanum

[vocal tree]

Wait. In which universe the orks are basically mushroom?

[wet storm]

Lexicanum is great but it will ruin your life

[fickle bluff]

40k

[wet storm]

There's so much content in there it's easy to keep reading for hours

[opaque raven]

I'm already there
It's your fault
Shame on you

[wet storm]

Thor says it's for cooking and foraging but in fact he's keeping the ork population in check 🙏

[vocal tree]

So they come out as adults?

[wet storm]

Yah

[opaque raven]

Just like in (...)

[wet storm]

So do squigs (weird bipedal boar like things) and gretchins (goblins)

It's a self sufficient organism

[worthy ivy]

yup, fully grown and ready to waaagh

[vocal tree]

How does their conciousness come to be?

[wet storm]

My favourite bit of lore of orks is their currency is teef. So orks will fight each other and knock their teef out. Like sharks, they keep growing new teef.

So the richest orks are the ones that win more fights because they have a huge pile of teef.

Teef also rot so the currency is immune to inflation 'cos they need to keep fighting to produce teef

[opaque raven]

LIKE ORCS FROM TOLKIEN!!
there..I said it....

[vocal tree]

I mean how do they learn it all?

[wet storm]

They just show up fully fluent in hooligan and swinging

[fickle bluff]

You're gonna have a great time reading on daemonculaba.

[worthy ivy]

40k is kind of LOTR in space

the setting at least

not the event s

[opaque raven]

I'm actually very interested in the hell part

The very beginning or the discovery it

[vocal tree]

Fully fluent in hooligan... Lol

[worthy ivy]

cummon boyz, dis shorty is bringin' sum ring 'ere wants to chuck it in da furnass, let's get ova dere and show 'im sum dakka yeah?

[wet storm]

My second favourite part of ork lore is how they have a gestalt field that turns what they believe in into truth through reality warping. This extends to colors.

Because everyone knows the red ones go fasta. So painting a buggy red increases it's top speed and acceleration.

Purple is the sneakiest color. Ever seen a purple ork? Didn't think so

[wet storm]

It wasn't always hell, it became stinky after the War in Heaven (the aforementioned conflict between the C'tan and the Old Ones).

Humanity discovered in the tribal times 'cos the gene that turns you into a psyker (psionic dude that's basically a mentat from dune that can shoot lightning) started to express in shamans during those times, and it made them vulnerable to the horrors of the warp

[worthy ivy]

I have a thought...

how does it play out if say Blood Angels are fighting Orks? do the marines get the speed boost too?

they are red

and thus must go fasta

[wet storm]

So a bunch of shamans gathered together, ended their lives in ritual sacrifice to fuse their souls into an overbeing, accelerating evolution by hundreds of thousands of years into a superhuman with perfect psionic control, charisma, strength, and all qualities the best human would have

[worthy ivy]

or is that a house-rules sort of call?

[wet storm]

In short, they made the emperor

[wet storm]

That's a good question

[worthy ivy]

yeah, empy got some rizz, no lie

[idle hill]

heimdall's popping off, 14th kill

[opaque raven]

I'm reaching the lore of the screaming vortex....

[worthy ivy]

is that visible somewhere, remember something about heimdall levelling up?

[fickle bluff]

The most hilarious part is that it goes both ways. Details elude me, but I remember there being a commissar(?) who ran out of bullets fighting orcs and just started doing gun noises and it freaking worked!

[worthy ivy]

noice

[idle hill]

it pops up on the left side of the stream as a big number when heimdall pops someone

[blazing spindle]

Sorry to dig this up again, but does anyone have the apology-post from Thor to Ross? Can't find it and I don't have twitter or social media in general 😅

[worthy ivy]

taking out whole battallions with "pew pew" noises

[strong wasp]

It isn't the same as something like GDPR, which mandates requirements in order to provide a product. This would mandate additional effort to stop providing a product. That isn't something I can predict I'll be in a position to comply with if/when the time comes. Maybe I'll get cancer. Do I want to risk a SKG lawsuit because I can't comply? No. So I judge operating an indie live service game in the EU would be an unacceptable risk if it passed.

[wet storm]

It's a parody but it's hilarious and plausible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNjUiDpLvlQ

[blazing spindle]

Or did he apologise personally?

[idle hill]

1s

[gentle mortar]

there's a clip somewhere

[idle hill]

https://x.com/PirateSoftware/status/1937994967961706588

Pirate Software (@PirateSoftware)

Just talked to Charlie and Josh Strife Hayes for a bit in DMs.

If you're mad at me for being a dick to Ross I get it and I'm sorry for that. I should not have lashed out but I had an emotional response due to how important this subject is to me.

On the developer side I have

X · Jun 25, 2025, 10:03 PM

Also understand: the apology is genuine, he just adds context to explain his reasoning for why he acts the way he does. He isn't trying to justify the bad behaviour.

[wet storm]

Another was when a warboss realized red goes fasta, so he told his orks to write things in red to learn faster, they became geniuses and even thought about stopping fighting to contemplate life but that got Barbog all depressed and he ||krumped 'imself|| so now da boss sez we aint allowed to read no mo'

[idle hill]

If you want to understand why I say this, I would recommend the HealthyGamerGG stream where he talks with Thor about the way he talks
https://www.youtube.com/live/7jDPsBh2AyQ?si=Wn-5w1Z7n605na2c

[blazing spindle]

Thank you!

[blazing spindle]

I know, I watched that. In the way he acts he resembles my brother a lot, so I have a bit of a different view on things

[dusky grove]

thor tries to be logic first emotion second. Whenever he has to be emotional, he also likes to add logic. to others it looks like justifying the behavior, which is a matter of perspective

[idle hill]

See, I get how he feels too
I do the same thing

[fickle bluff]

Orcs are the best. Everyone else is just depressing.

[dusky grove]

I'd argue that we need more people like that. too many arguments on the internet just go off vibes and no evidence

[gentle mortar]

Same thing, that's why I didn't see the 'issues' on Thor's end

[wet storm]

Honestly I've met dozens upon dozens of Warhammer players and not one of the ork ones are ever salty

It's a shame orks are expensive

[rain widget]

unfortunately it seems not everyone can understand or handle that though. I personally appreciate this type of communication.

[opaque raven]

I reached the coolest thing ever
🔥 The Eye of Terror 🔥

[wet storm]

That's the birthplace of Slaanesh

[fickle bluff]

Eh, tbf, everything 40k is expensive.

[gentle mortar]

very, I would describe it as a… stoic way of thinking

[wet storm]

With orks the problem is it's so many minis

Lots of minis, lots of paint

Lots of money

[opaque raven]

From what I'm understanding the Eye is the consequence of the birth

[wet storm]

Some ork player shows up and you know you're about to see like 40 plastic boyz on the field

[fickle bluff]

Or a single 3d printer...

[dusky grove]

i wonder if there are people who make their living just painting the 40k minis for other players to use

probably is

[wet storm]

Correct

It's the super highway to hell that the forces of chaos use to invade the Materium (i.e.: real world)

[opaque raven]

There is a store on my neighborhood that have a workplace for you to make and paint your mini figures, it's pretty cool

[idle hill]

I gotta get up and get ready for work later
Stayed up all night modding mc and chatting

[reef frigate]

https://www.stopkillinggames.com

you guys should sign this if your in the EU

[worthy ivy]

what "bad behaviour"?

I mean that as a genuine question because all I see is a man forced to apologise for something really he shouldn't have to

he told someone to eat his entire ass? they can eat /my/ entire ass
described a bloke that gives me myself major used-car-salesman vibes as being like a used-car-salesman? they can eat my entire ass again

we've become a planet of Karens

where did it all go wrong?

[wet storm]

smort

[reef frigate]

https://www.stopkillinggames.com

you guys should sign this if your in the EU

[opaque raven]

How the FRICK can you even try closing the Eye???

Oh no...there is also the maelstrom....

[turbid flower]

Should sign it only if you agree with it, which is fine. But don't just sign something with a, "Just because"

[wet storm]

Don't spam it makes the thing look bad

[reef frigate]

Why

[worthy ivy]

thing makes itself look bad 😉

[opaque raven]

Ok, the real world is screwed permanently

[wet storm]

'cos spam sucks

[reef frigate]

Do you want to keep killing games?

[reef frigate]

Why

[idle hill]

He had an emotional reaction, but I agree, it was totally justified
I think it was a bit far to say the entire initiative was shit because Ross' presentation of it was shit, personally

[dusky grove]

look, I get you're passionate about it, but it doesn't justify spamming a message over and over

[opaque raven]

Yes, I would love to have a way to destroy League of Legends

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-chris-pratt-star-lord-gif-23754024

[dusky grove]

aaand gone

[terse pelican]

[mortal flare]

https://tenor.com/view/rip-bozo-bozo-muppets-statler-waldorf-gif-14456657747927849417

[turbid flower]

Not what I said. I simply said that someone shouldn't sign something just because they were told to.
Besides I can't sign it. I don't live in the EU

[mortal flare]

he gone

resume your previous goblinry

[opaque raven]

I mean, honestly at least they are evoking

[wet storm]

I don't think it's been told it's possible

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

[opaque raven]

It's the very first time I've seen anyone asking specifically for Europeans

So kudos, great, people are learning

[idle hill]

With eyelids, ofc

[gentle mortar]

They are evolving

[turbid flower]

A silver lining for sure.

[wet storm]

If you're american marry an european NOW and sign it

https://tenor.com/view/smart-thinking-thoughts-think-ponder-gif-7713620

[turbid flower]

So easy. Why didn't I think of it. Let me get on that real quick

[dusky grove]

Better yet, get a time machine and make your parents move to europe so you're european by birth

[wet storm]

🧎‍♂️ Will you marry me? 💍

[worthy ivy]

that's the whole problem in a nutshell...

"sign it only if you agree with it"....
"so you want to keep killing games?"

reason is dead, long live reason
it's all over
time to go back to eating our meat raw and sleeping in trees

[turbid flower]

Go back far enough and they wouldn't need to move...

[idle hill]

As long as they aren't british, perhaps... but still not signing it

[wet storm]

It's a troll

[turbid flower]

For sure. Big or small wedding?

[worthy ivy]

kind of the entire internet these days

I remember when trolls were funny

it's been a few decades since then

[opaque raven]

Man..:there are soooo many names and concepts on each page of lore that feels like I'm reading Destiny 2 or freaking Karamazov Brothers

[wet storm]

Small and fast, fast vows, sign, then divorce

Life hax

[fickle bluff]

Trolling used to be an art back in the day

[turbid flower]

Big brain plays right here.

[wet storm]

We're playing chess while the world plays mahjong

[opaque raven]

I'm....I'm kinda siding with the space marines here....

Everything from the Warp is horrifying

And world ending

[wet storm]

Read into the Salamanders

The coolest dudes

[worthy ivy]

Space Marines can be pretty horrifying too

[idle hill]

Thor's talking about ferret software now, cool
Apparently the streams arent monetizable on YT, so he's planning on doing clips and videos there

[worthy ivy]

some of them get up to some really weird culty shit

[fickle bluff]

Not everything. Granpa Nurgle is very chill.

[opaque raven]

I'm just reading about the warp for now, I will move to the dark side of the lore of the marines soon

[wet storm]

Do NOT read into the Night Lords

Hate the lore on them, it's just so stupid

[opaque raven]

Ah yes, do you mean THE PLAGUE LORD????

Sounds like a chill dude

[wet storm]

He brings relief to all plagues and ills

But he's also the dude that creates them

Kinda like when developers manufacture inconvenience in MMOs

[opaque raven]

Creates the problems and the solutions
Just like Apple

[wet storm]

There's a story where a squad of plague marines (space marines corrupted by Nurgle specifically) got cut off from the warp and Nurgle's numbing influence

They did not have a good time

[wet storm]

Nurgle is Tim Cook

[opaque raven]

Bro....Nurgle kidnapped Isha and is experimenting on her non stop

This is...

[fickle bluff]

I mean...in comparison to other 3 he's like....ultra chill and wholesome.

[dusky grove]

thankfully we have people clipping things every day

[opaque raven]

The one born with the Eye was the last one?

[wet storm]

Yes, Slaanesh