streamchat

[cursive solar]

dont think me making a moderation ticket will make a difference in that case

ill go now, enjoy the rest of the conversation

[earnest cove]

Ok this one os hilariously delusional

[umbral gazelle]

yes we do. if we got a moderation issue we make a ticket.

[green plank]

my philosophy of interacting with media is that i want all game genres and i play older and modern games

[cursive solar]

and im sure the other guy im sure did lol

[green plank]

cause... why would i limit myself LOL

[indigo wadi]

Wow

[serene valley]

People just dont believe its his actual middle name

[dusky grove]

Kids these days with their fancy electronics. You're not a true gaming purist if you dont exclusively play rock paper scissors

[indigo wadi]

Weren't you going?

[earnest cove]

Very wow i laughed when i read it and thought i had to show because it's that unhinged

[cursive solar]

yep, enjoy the convo buddy

[earnest cove]

That too

[deft charm]

Not the problem. The problem is those games are on the list Ross uses even though if you had the console and the disk, YOU CAN STILL PLAY THEM. Just not on the PS3 and X360 online network

[indigo wadi]

All of these are unhinged

[edgy oar]

Bye

[indigo wadi]

Toodles

[edgy oar]

Anyways who has some bread?

I must be fueled

[earnest cove]

Josh in 13:30 minutes talks about hijackers using any excuse to do horrendous things

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi my floppydisk are not readable anymore and recently my pristine Homeworld 1 disk couldn't run on my legacy machine. I feel if you own the game you have the right to aquire a digital copy for free that works. However it should not be the devs that make this compatibility process a reality. I feel the responsibility lies with volunteers (think WINE/Proton compatibility layers) and people making stores where you can get old games (or packs) for cheap would be great.

[earnest cove]

And every single person justifying the bad behaviour is doong exactly what Josh mentioned in the video as if they never listened at all

[edgy oar]

Because they don't listen. Most don't even watch the video.

[fluid dome]

We have shit like CeX over in the UK where you can get legacy games and hardware.

[indigo wadi]

If your car stops working, are you entitled to a free one?

Because that's kind of the same argument here.

[indigo wadi]

GOG does this.

[edgy oar]

We need to stop assuming people on the Internet have Critical Thinking. It's a lost art.

[worthy ivy]

it's satire right?
it has to be satire...
right?

...please tell me it's satire before the last shred of my confidence in humanity is eroded 😦

[gloomy forge]

@gloomy forge a car and a video game are entirely different goods that serve entirely different purposes.

[idle hill]

If you or a loved one was diagnosed with mesothelioma, you may be entitled to financial compensation

[indigo wadi]

I know they don't and it drives me crazy

[indigo wadi]

Roflmao

[fluid dome]

This shit will never be outdone by digital I'm sorry

[earnest cove]

Unfortunately I can't tell you if it's satire. Its all Poe's law

[gloomy forge]

If my game breaks I don't wanna buy a new game of the same type, thats nuts. Hell, even back in the 1980 you could call support and give them the floppies and they give you new pristine ones but that took time.

[worthy ivy]

I've got a big box of those plastic shelled little devils

[lunar moth]

I don't like what happened between me and Bruno, and I want to try to explain things hoping it might help settle things (cordially, not in any other aspect) but... that's probably not a good idea?

[jolly sky]

Literally did not watch the video or take in anything that Josh said lmao

[indigo wadi]

But the idea of the argument is the same.

Game stops working, you want a free version of it.
Car stops working, you want a free version of it.

The car manufacturer isn't obligated to give you a free car.
Developers should be obligated to give you a free game.

[fluid dome]

I may also consider getting a crt exclusively for legacy consoles at some point, I hear they are preferred instead of modern tvs

[earnest cove]

Josh's video also straight up said "why did you give him respect he had done this and this and this" lol and they post anywayyyyy

[indigo wadi]

I would just leave it

[worthy ivy]

I choose to believe it is satire and thus hillarious rather than tragic

[indigo wadi]

Cause all they are about is drama posting. Zero nuance

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi I mean its not entirely true, here were I live we can get a different car as a substitude if one breaks until theres a replacement and the costs are paid.

[fluid dome]

German efficiency

[earnest cove]

Either they didn't watch or their hearts refuse to listen

[serene valley]

Is that cuz you have a lease contract? Or is it just a service the garage provides

[frozen nimbus]

"For months" LOL

[serene valley]

https://tenor.com/view/squirrel-huh-what-up-dog-gif-18781858

[gloomy forge]

@serene valley its one of the consumer protection laws we have in our country.

[frozen nimbus]

People refuse to do any research

[earnest cove]

Just some of the people who insists no respect given

Says a lot about them

[indigo wadi]

But what if the car is beyond repair?

[frozen nimbus]

👆

[green plank]

a lot of these people are the types that would be abusive partners i feel lol

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi we have mandantory baseline insurance that somewhat covers around million in damages. if you're innocent in causing the damages you get the money for a replacement.

[green plank]

"😡 if you dont respect me ill be horrible to you"

[frozen nimbus]

I would not want to talk to them in the first place

[earnest cove]

Oh there's a LOT of that

And i mean a lot

[fluid dome]

So if I get into a crash by accident and my insurance doesn't cover it, if it can't be fixed I get a new car?

[indigo wadi]

Oy.

There's no insurance on games...okay maybe car isn't the greatest example

[indigo wadi]

Never admits wrong doing? Lol okay

[green plank]

yea the computer arguing is just kinda a weird vibe idk

[frozen nimbus]

Its funny since this is like one of the FEW communities that are almost never toxic, we will never go harass someone just because thor said too

[worthy ivy]

I'm not sure on where Thor insulted anyone...
I know a used car salesman, he's a lovely bloke, what's the issue?

[indigo wadi]

Thor did insult Ross months ago.

[worthy ivy]

what say? I missed that

just the used car salesman bit

[fluid dome]

"Sleazy used car salesman" iirc

[indigo wadi]

Yeah, Thor apologized for it on Twitter couple of evenings ago

[gloomy forge]

@fluid dome we have mandantory insurance that we have to pick from a list, but I think under circumstances people can also choose not to, which is kinda crazy but yeah the laws allow/disallow for things.

[fluid dome]

Nice

[frozen nimbus]

Which then everyone discredited immediately

[green plank]

imagine being called a car salesman, justifying multiple people being sent death threat, SWATing a persons house (that many times results in death) and mass amounts of drama vids

[hazy storm]

There are also people who are ranking SKG with the same level of importance as Right to Repair but they're not nearly on the same level. R2R has actual physical economic and military implications, to the point where soldiers literally can't repair tanks until a company rep visits them in the field

The only real thing at risk if SKG doesn't pass is the enjoyment of a percentage of gamers

[gloomy forge]

So we're kinda forced to pick something but we have to read a lot because theres positives and negatives. Some may cost more down the line etc, its not state mandated

[cursive solar]

havent watched the video yet but this appeared in my youtube home page https://youtu.be/OIZLyap0iNU?si=wKICKeosTGdrMQAS

[green plank]

(being called a car salesman 10 months ago)

[worthy ivy]

not an insult, like I say I know a used car salesman, he's a lovely bloke... everyone needs to buy a used car every now and then...

... but he kind of does have a used-car salesman'y sort of vibe...

[jolly sky]

And also the keypoint here is that, Thor outwardly says to not brigade or white knight on behalf of him, and says that multiple times whenever he's talking about something that is opinion based.

I've yet to hear Ross say this, and if I were in his position and heard anything about what certain "supporters" of the SKG were doing, I've be making a video every single day denouncing those actions

[hazy storm]

Because let's be honest only a percentage of gamers will care about their libraries after years of not playing

[frozen nimbus]

What do they say?

[cursive solar]

unsure, havent watched it yet

[worthy ivy]

if that's "constant attacks" on ross... am I now guilty of "constant attacks" on ross because I think he's a bit car-salesman'y?

[cursive solar]

been open on one of my tabs

[worthy ivy]

the internet has lost it's effing mind

[indigo wadi]

Shifting through goalposts yup

[gloomy forge]

@fluid dome also nice you mention GOG yeah they do what I like. IMHO that is what those for SKG should promote. They should use GOG as an example to say "here is what a world with SKG would be like."

[frosty spear]

"Well you see by criticizing the initiative made by Ross he hurt Ross's feelings"🤓 . More seriously I do also presume like many people that start political movements Ross also has gotten an inflated ego from it and also tied his ego to the movement(people usually tie movements to their creators externally so eh) so criticizing the initiative is criticizing Ross

[green plank]

whats wrong with being a car salesman :[

[frozen nimbus]

If thor said to go attack someone or defend him, the community would probably do the opposite. This is one of the only communities that has people think for themselves then go blindly attack

[coral heart]

Its in ross' reply video, if you actually watch it. Its more that just one insult

[earnest cove]

I've heard only one person claimed that Ross distanced himself from bad behaviour, but that's still second hand and not straight from the creator like thor

[gloomy forge]

they could create a lot of different positive stories about it and make it a positive movement, but its so founded into drama right now its not good looking.

[frozen nimbus]

👍

[green plank]

yea 😼 its 2 insults

really freaking messed up right

[indigo wadi]

Ross has said "support this or be against us:

[cursive solar]

just started the video now, he says he apparently signed the initiative

[idle hill]

Person: Apologizes for their wrongdoings
Them: "No! You're supposed to take all the blame and bring out the ukelele! Sing me a song, content man!"

[jolly sky]

Yes, even we would be like "Yo, that's shit behaviour Thor, don't do that." A lot of us would leave outright, which he has outright said that people should do if that ever were to happen

[indigo wadi]

It's the WoW drama all over again

[gloomy forge]

Maybe on a different note and different topic, being around you guys makes me wanna make a game and learn some things .

[astral crypt]

that's a WIN

[gloomy forge]

stop influencing me

[frosty spear]

well the thing is with reviving the drama after 10 months and pining the blame on Thor that was the intended outcome so he can't condemn it otherwise he'll alienate people

[earnest cove]

More like the wow drama never left

[nova bough]

honestly, at the core this is what thors community is about.

[frozen nimbus]

Mood ngl

[frosty spear]

Go create

[hasty grail]

or go figure out how the hell modding is suppose to work

[jolly sky]

Good, alienating people who are doing shit things to other people is what he should be doing honestly

[gloomy forge]

I know some gscript and all but I'm also all for doing unique things with unique game making kits. Just messing around with it doing stuff on my own.

pico-8 as well!

love pico-8 its the best.

[frozen nimbus]

So has ross not explicitly said to SKG followers to not attack communities?

[lunar moth]

The problem with all of this is from a consumer perspective, yes you have a right to what you buy. But that's why this is a monetary discussion, which... Scott dismissed in his response to Thor both 10 months ago and in the latest video, meaning that this is just an ideological movement of what games are allowed to be made - not whether some games are allowed to be sold and how.

Right to repair has to do with physical objects, whereas SKG is either an ideological movement about game design (at which point Thor's concerns are entirely valid, agree or disagree with them all one want). Or it is a practical movement talking about the monetary business relationship that consumers have with developers, at which point... "vote with your wallet" and "Add labels to Steam about the product you are buying" are genuine solutions - both of which Scott has dismissed as not being far enough.

So... the problem is that it is entirely based on Scott's old slogan, Stop Killing Games, as opposed to what the intiative itself actually advocates for because the intiative doesn't really have a concisive message of what it is supposed to be targeting. Because it can either focus on the ideological side, or it can focus on the practical side - but both have different solutions and view it as "problems" in different ways.

Right to repair is literally just "I have a thing and I want to be able to fix it."

[green plank]

i still think its crazy that in thors original video he threatened to fire a full power ki blast directly at poland 😰

[frozen nimbus]

Huh? What did I miss? 😭

[idle hill]

I always get motivated to create when stuff like this happens but I never know where to start 😭
I stopped working on Godot last year I think, and haven't drawn as much as I wanted for the past few months
Since I just quit playing Fear Nightfall maybe I have more time to explore my ideas

[terse pelican]

Either you're joking or taking something way out of proportion

[fluid dome]

https://youtube.com/shorts/MKBj5_Ze_k4?si=uOGZVymrcfG7soVe

Might be a month old but still valid.

[frozen nimbus]

Poland getting obliterated

[frosty spear]

From what I know of other movements in similar states and with similar managements getting people riled up to attack the opposition is the intended outcome. It's shitty but hey some people are that way

[frozen nimbus]

Same

[gloomy forge]

@green plank we do not talk about the Warsaw incident I'm glad Thor only did a warning shot which hit Gdańsk.

[green plank]

LOL

[worthy ivy]

did you not see the followup video where he literally kamehamehaa'd the planet in half - his power knows no bounds - Thor is Goku confirmed?

[frozen nimbus]

Bru

Thor how could you smh

Server wide reset

[gloomy forge]

Dude, I'm so mad at Thor. I was cruising with my Bike only to stumble over and fall down. There was a twig put in the front wheel. It did say "for you, signed - Thor." what did I do to deserve this.

[indigo wadi]

And he's not even super sayian yet

[green plank]

is it weird that i think meme iconography is unironically being used for propaganda type stuff now lol

[worthy ivy]

anyone have a thors head with a transparent bg handy?

[green plank]

it sounds dumb, but psychologically i think it is effective

[idle hill]

You mean the one in the pins somewhere?

[worthy ivy]

where?

[worthy ivy]

ty

[hasty grail]

[indigo wadi]

Oh no...

[gloomy forge]

@green plank You noticed because memes were always propaganda. Slogans of all kinds are propaganda. Its part of a old latin word that later turned into the english "propel", so every piece of information that accelerate people to think certain things. Propaganda is the backbone of youtubers talking about stuff with many people believing it. I think Josh even implied this when he said he would be a politician because thats their bread and butter too.

[fluid dome]

This is the issue with boycotts and any sort of ideological movement. "Vote with your wallet" is a bullshit stance to take imho bc none of these slacktivists stand on business. They're all full of shit.

First it was "Oh we should boycott the switch 2 bc it's $450 and the games are $80" and then we get 2.5m units in 4 days.

Where is this energy when EA does literally anything ever, where is this energy when Ubisoft releases $130 ultimate editions for Star Wars Outlaws that lock content behind paywalls?

It's all bullshit. Nobody actually cares about any of the issues plaguing the industry, they'd rather farm useless karma points on reddit in their little circle jerks instead.

[frosty spear]

Watched Josh Strife Hayes's take on it and it's pretty good, he disagrees with Thor but also shares his view without trying to stir shit

[indigo wadi]

Is there a thing as good propaganda?

[frosty spear]

depends on your political views

[frozen nimbus]

Haven't been able to watch but didnt he also say that the harassment should stop?

[wet storm]

Yes

DRINK WATER

[green plank]

like if you dont like someone, make them look like soyjack, and then portray yourself as very calm (and make yourself arbitrarily muscular)

[wet storm]

HYDRATE

[indigo wadi]

Nowhere because MUST CONSUUM

[wet storm]

You look like a raisin left on the sun

In the desert

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi exactly my point. Propaganda can be good "eat your veggies, drink water." or bad "bring back bullying!".

[wet storm]

During summer

[frosty spear]

yes, he opens the video with that, then shares his view

[cursive solar]

@frozen nimbus yo, that video i linked, got to a certain part of the video, looks like hes actually developing a live service free to play game too

[wet storm]

Hydrate

[worthy ivy]

took far too long

thor is goku!

[idle hill]

If you see some AI bro telling you they can do it better, draw them pregnant

[indigo wadi]

Roflmao

[wet storm]

Even doing light exercise with average amounts of protein generate enough load on your kidneys you should hydrate at least 2l of water a day

[earnest cove]

I just listened to Josh and he has SO MUCH lost widsom of discussion in the internet

[wet storm]

YOu don't want to be one of the dry ones, do you?

[earnest cove]

Or even some real life

[indigo wadi]

Actually, that's based on body size

[fluid dome]

He's a brit, we're just built different

[wet storm]

That what the drylluminati want you to think

[indigo wadi]

Roflmao

[wet storm]

Hydrate NOW 🫵

[gloomy forge]

Unrelated but I always thought of GIGACHAD as a joke of hypermasculinity. being nice and manly isn't about your jawline or muscles, but your non-agressive mentality and other non-superficialities.

[earnest cove]

"HOWEVER ENTER THE INTERNET"

And everything he said is yeah it's the internet

[gloomy forge]

make me

[idle hill]

CHUG, funny internet man!

[green plank]

especially when like, the majority of all those factors are tightly genetically mediated lol

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-monkey-throw-monkey-bottle-monkey-throw-bottle-gif-18261736954649180075

[green plank]

think of the implications

[lunar moth]

As far as I'm aware he hasn't, but he has engaged in using drama to try to raise awareness to his initiative.
"'I think he represented Stop Killing Games as accurately as he represented his behavior in World of Warcraft and towards the World of Warcraft community,' said Scott during a January 18 Twitch stream."

Dexerto wrote an article mentioning this on 20th of January this year, so he very much so has engaged in the trolling himself. So... regardless of what he has said, if he has said anything to discourage it, he has engaged in said trolling himself.
Sorry that it took some time finding the article as I had seen it before but couldn't remember where.

[earnest cove]

British values of civility was the golden standard which is now forgotten...

[gloomy forge]

chuggies he truly is americas finest hero.

damn I'd wish I had that monkey form, thats a 10/10 toss.

[earnest cove]

Beating people until they win is such today's internet

[idle hill]

That toss was amazing, they should give that monkey a medal

[deft charm]

Asmondgold gets its wrong again? https://www.reddit.com/r/TruePokemon/comments/hwluk9/while_it_is_true_that_iwata_did_write_a_new/

[oblique palm]

"bring back bullying" 🤝 "make it socially acceptable to beat and harass people I think are different into acting the way I think is normal"

[green plank]

also just to be clear, i hope this isnt mind blowing but ... game devs today ... are the exact same

🤯

nothing.. has changed

[idle hill]

no way

[green plank]

just propaganda started coming out

and it warped perception

[idle hill]

nothing ever changes smfh

[gloomy forge]

@oblique palm yeah, thats just a surefire way to make people teach about bad ways to engage with people, racism, treating opposing genders or genders that you don't share unfairly or with ire. The internet teached these things in an early age and thats why you have the internet of today. Because as Thor said, "the internet is a pvp zone" but he didn't answer the question "what if people get raised in a pvp zone"?

[green plank]

there isnt "modern game devs" and "past game devs"

its just random ass people making games

there was a TON of slop in the 90's to LMAO

you just dont remember it

cause you never played the shit games

[wet storm]

I did

[idle hill]

impossible
I dont remember it therefore it never existed

[wet storm]

I was there, in the trenches

[idle hill]

[wet storm]

figuring out if the DOS game was compatible with my sound card

[gloomy forge]

@green plank 100% true, I like "the slop games" too and spend a lot of time with them.

[wet storm]

And I can safely say

There's an infinity of slop games today too

[gloomy forge]

I'd even say that a lot of "jank" is judged unfairly and with bias.

[wet storm]

We just happen to also have metacritic

[green plank]

i dont like the term "slop" but im just saying it to get the point out

[gloomy forge]

and thats ok, because everyone has bias.

[green plank]

also ya know, the same goes for "old youtube" that shit was all slop to

[hazy storm]

Are you old enough to remember Armor Games?

[gloomy forge]

Yeah me, too. Everything can have merit, even AI stuff. Its just that AI is bad because a lot of people are bad and can use it in bad ways. People rarely see things with ethics in mind though.

[green plank]

hey yall heres episode 220 of happy wheels lets get into it 😼

[wet storm]

Eeeeew

[gloomy forge]

@hazy storm Of course, I remember playing Gemcraft there but they made a bunch of unique games too, I remember a gladiator game whose name I forgotten.

[wet storm]

Kongregate's where it's at

[deft charm]

miniclip babyyyyyyy

[gloomy forge]

@hazy storm jackmith recently got ported to steam, has super high ratings.

Kongregate!

[wet storm]

Swords and Sandals?

[gloomy forge]

@wet storm no, it was a real time combat game where you could control your guy.

[hazy storm]

Hell yeah. I wasted many a summer trying to get as many Kongregate achievements as possible

[wet storm]

Same bestie

I was in the chat rooms

Being told I was basic for playing mainstream games

[hazy storm]

Oh no way. You and i probably chatted at some point then

[gloomy forge]

@hazy storm me too I remember the time where I was in civic service spend a lot of time on Kongregate, even played the original Meat Boy like I played the original celeste years later.

[wet storm]

Basic and Mainstream, on a flashgame website

Those were the days

[hazy storm]

There was this one TD game where the towers were mushrooms that had the most addictive music

[wet storm]

My jam was Amorphous

[hazy storm]

It still plays in my head sometimes

[wet storm]

the one you went around with a giant sword killing blobs

[gloomy forge]

too bad noone knows that the celeste everyone knows is not even original, its a remake of the original game that was available on pico-8, you can play it for free: https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?tid=2145

[hazy storm]

Yesssss oh gods that game was better than it had a right to be

[indigo wadi]

Roflmao, Josh's opening minute of his video us so good

[gloomy forge]

Yeah thats why Josh is a fun watch quite often, love his OSRS related takes but he usually is quite well spoken about MMOs.

[indigo wadi]

You watch his constant retelling story that lasted 3 hours?

[hazy storm]

Bookmarked

[gloomy forge]

I remember him talking good about Vindictus (the old one where giving girls bigger boobs nowadays makes them stronger classic nexon).

[wet storm]

Josh has a unique combination of level headedness and wit

[gloomy forge]

ok my cooking is done

[wet storm]

What have you cooked?

Where's mine?

[earnest cove]

I just finished listening to Ross and only now i realised how much we've lost as a society

[fluid dome]

"And now enter the internet"

[indigo wadi]

Welcome to my worldview lol

[earnest cove]

I was called horrible things before because i protected my friend from someone trying to bully her philosophically be demonizing her.

The short story is that in the end he blamed me for quitting Christianity

[earnest cove]

Yup that got me

[indigo wadi]

Roflmao what?

"I'm mad at you for causing me to quit a religion!"

That...makes no sense.

[nova bough]

shade bearing cat

[earnest cove]

So called "Christian" tried to bully my sweet friend because she's an athiest calling her siding with evil by default

I'm also Christian but i couldn't let him bully her. He kept fighting back so I used mod power to mute him. His friend got angry and called everyone names and left wing bootlickers. I kicked him out too

And theni received a dm the next day "if that's your God, I don't want your god anymore" and he quit Christianity

[wet storm]

That's a wild 2 sentence story

[indigo wadi]

Quitting religion out of spite, amazing

[wet storm]

Wow

This gasted my flabber

[indigo wadi]

This rustled my jimmies

[earnest cove]

It was insane and stressful

The person who bullied my person made it his pride to debate on the internet for 20 something years

So whe Josh said what internet "debating" had become I really recalled that behaviour and incident

He used to not be like that....

[indigo wadi]

"Humans aren't logical" I forget this a lot

[gloomy forge]

humans don't have to be logical but they are for sure reasonable many times in their lifes, more so than unreasonable.

and even Dr. K. forgets that emotions and logic go hand in hand, the balance in both is important.

[jolly sky]

Not being logical is fine, but having emotions entirely run your life is far worse

[indigo wadi]

"Politics is a popularity contest" and yet politicians are widely unpopular

[earnest cove]

the ideas pitching is a popularity contest tho

[gloomy forge]

Exactly, same as with logic, use your brain to think, use your heart for everything else

[indigo wadi]

True

[hasty grail]

a person is smart, people are dumb

[gloomy forge]

i came back with food I cooked

[earnest cove]

well........... thought experiment

I have found myself fantasizing multiple times that what if I become an android with all logic and no emotion. wouldn't my life be so much better? because I wouldn't be sad from loneliness of being disagreed against

when i had negative emotions i would be told to "stop feeling <negative emotion> but I can't stop feeling it."

and because i can't stop feeling it people get even angrier

which made me even more upset, and makes them even more angry

[gloomy forge]

you would still notice the loneliness however, because logically you would assert the situation and comparing it to the averages of the population, that you're an outlier would thus be considered an issue that required fixing. If that is impossible your thoughts would be stuck in a feedback loop and you would keep thinking in a way you should've be thinking.

[earnest cove]

But if i have no emotions, i wouldn't feel troubled by being an outlier because i'd have no feeling

[turbid flower]

A least unpopular contest?

[worthy ivy]

do i need a boot disc because this game uses /literally/ all of my RAM

[oblique palm]

"i dislike the same people you dislike" contest

[gloomy forge]

@earnest cove you would still notice that you're the outlier though, now you can be either do something about it because thats logical, since logic and efficiency go hand in hand, you cannot be logical without understanding results for instance. Not fixing something would therefore be not logical and not within reason of the preexisting paradigms of logic and reason. logic has to be selfcontained, evidence based and axionically alligned with reality. Therefore you MUST keep into account all possible datasets. but once you're not fixing something you will be stuck in a feedback loop until said problem is solved. Not "feeling" anything doesn't mean much here because you become goal oriented.

[oblique palm]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1026486347109773343/1204151118024810576/tenor_29.gif

[proud coral]

:3

[gloomy forge]

humans have the ability to bullshit (rationalize) things which is super important, sometimes being in a feedbackloop for a while is good because it does indicate to your emotions that something is wrong, rather than you being forced to align with your goals. if you feel bad about it, you can then rationalize a fix that suits your unique goal rather than a programm that can only work through a very specific function.

[earnest cove]

could part of the logical response is "i don't need to do anything to fix the problem"?

[gloomy forge]

like it would be a if statement, a human with emotions has "many ifs" but a logical human could only have "one perfect if" and if that if is not attainable then oof.

[earnest cove]

Maybe Doctor Light is right for giving robots emotions otherwise they're stuck with "one perfect if"

[gloomy forge]

@earnest cove see, thats the trap card right there, you still said "...to fix the problem"? what problem then? even saying the word would through you into this loop.

[earnest cove]

(a nice brief change from SKG talk)

[wet storm]

All 4 mb of it

[worthy ivy]

nah, I had 8 whole megabytes in my first "real" PC (not counting my Amiga)
still needed a boot disc to run Quake 1

[wet storm]

Fancy pants

[worthy ivy]

and a gigabyte hdd - and remember thinking "how will I ever fill a gigabyte?"

[gentle mortar]

Never! You will make a game even if you like it or not! Also buy the demo, you want to, we all know.

[gloomy forge]

@worthy ivy Pog you had an amiga with fast RAM? Amiga 4000?

[worthy ivy]

no, I've got an A500+

all the discs have blended together, but the machine still runs

[gloomy forge]

still awesome.

[gloomy forge]

yeah.

[nova bough]

caaaat

[worthy ivy]

and I gots the og boxes for Deluxe Paint and Workbench and that

reckon they'll be worth more than the Amiga itself to a collectors

[gloomy forge]

are these your cats and images @nova bough you have a nice cozy place take good care of the kitties for us.

I still own my GEOS c64 floppys too.

with my I mean "my dads"

[worthy ivy]

if you kept them stacked in a disc box they'll be grey by now - they sort of bleed into each other if you leave em too long

rip all my amiga software

[gloomy forge]

yeah, that is true.

yeah, its all gone because of physical deterioation.

[worthy ivy]

Heimdall still worked last time I tried though

[gloomy forge]

30-35 years life tops.

[worthy ivy]

and the OG Space Hulk

[gloomy forge]

Space Hulk was incredible.

the pre x-com.

I loved Dune 2.

[worthy ivy]

got me a copy of diggers somewhere 🙂

[nova bough]

yes, all the pics ive shown here are ones ive taken. either of my 2 boys, Charon (almost solid black), Hermes (black and white) or various outdoor cats while i touch grass

[gloomy forge]

@nova bough awesome names too. nice, keep on touching grass you're too well adjusted to browse the internet my friend.

[indigo wadi]

STNG IS NOT UNKNOWN JOSH

[hazy storm]

Dune 2 was the GOAT that started it all

[worthy ivy]

he was the bomb in the OG Dune movie

[indigo wadi]

What?

[gloomy forge]

Yeah hes a neat actor.

Sting plays a role in the David Lynch Dune movie.

[indigo wadi]

No no

Not sting

[worthy ivy]

i know 🙂

[indigo wadi]

STNG

[hazy storm]

lmao

[gloomy forge]

[indigo wadi]

Oy

[worthy ivy]

star trek next generation?

[indigo wadi]

Lol

[worthy ivy]

🙂

[indigo wadi]

Yes

[earnest cove]

To the young audience, it is unknown

[worthy ivy]

yeah, brought up on nu-trek - eww - not knowing the pure joy that was TNG the first time round

[earnest cove]

And well it's kinda unknown for me because by the time i was old enough to understand Malaysia stopped airing star trek

[indigo wadi]

Great video by josh

[earnest cove]

Yeah it's really good thinking of listening to it again with my husband

[worthy ivy]

they kind of lost me with Enterprise - was always subconsiously waiting for Ziggy to pop up and tell him what to do to make the next leap

[indigo wadi]

Was never a fan of enterprise

[worthy ivy]

that and they had to eff with the canon a bit to make it work

[gloomy forge]

DS9 best star trek related fiction.

[worthy ivy]

at least nu-trek is an alternate timeline, but still...

[hazy storm]

I liked DS9 better than TNG to be honest

[worthy ivy]

hang on, there's an epic three hour video essay on why nu-trek sucks - will find

[hazy storm]

But then i also loved Babylon 5 so maybe i have a type

[indigo wadi]

Bb5 was good

[gloomy forge]

babylon 5 had awesome fan games.

[worthy ivy]

TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager (although Voyager is a bit patchy) after that I just went back to TNG on DVD 🙂

[hazy storm]

I wonder if they'll release a Star wars show set on Bespin or a Golan defense platform

[worthy ivy]

babylon 5 was tight - really good - totally underrated

[indigo wadi]

Stargate

[hazy storm]

Babylon 5 had the best series conclusion of its generation of shows

[nova bough]

specifically SG1

[hazy storm]

Lots of payoffs and weepy moments but less cheese

[gloomy forge]

Yeah babylon 5 was so well written but heres my underrated scifi pick...Farscape

[nova bough]

the earlier seasons of sg1 show their age, but they're still good

[indigo wadi]

I prefer sg69

[nova bough]

nice

[hazy storm]

Yeah! I loved Farscape

The concept was so unique

[indigo wadi]

But we are forgetting one

https://tenor.com/view/firefly-bonnet-malcolm-reynolds-floral-bonnet-i-will-end-you-gif-5280371

[hazy storm]

Haha yes of course

[worthy ivy]

it's on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/@FarscapeOfficial
thank me later

[wet storm]

LOL

Stealing this

[hazy storm]

That show had so many quotable lines

[nova bough]

im still salty that theres only 1 season

[hazy storm]

Even Babylon 5 as good as it is wasn't as punchy

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/red-dwarf-kryten-appreciation-cant-cope-up-gif-3540355

[hazy storm]

Special. HELL.

[worthy ivy]

I really liked John's slow spiral descent into madness as the stress takes it's toll - by the end of the series he's completely unhinged - top notch character development - I reckon that's exactly how it'd play out for me

[hazy storm]

The ship as sentient was a brilliant idea that captivated me

[worthy ivy]

poor guy just wants to research wormholes without the whole galaxy chasing him

is that too much to ask?

[hazy storm]

Jim Henson involvement elevated it too

[worthy ivy]

do you know if Farscape is canonically in the same universe as Dark Crystal? I spotted the Skegsis and wondered

[hazy storm]

I heard the theory and its a good one but i don't know if it was confirmed

[worthy ivy]

creature shop is what makes it - the sfx still look tight because it's almost all physical fx

looks as good today as it ever did

like labyrinthj

[hazy storm]

Btw random tangent about sighting celebrities in public. Claudia Christian the lady who plays Ivanova in B5 was in a writing retreat i attended

She was pretty classy. Told off some people who were being disruptive lol

[worthy ivy]

they did reuse puppets sometimes, but they're called Skegsis in both aren't they? or am I remembering wrong - haven't seen dark crystal in decades

[worthy ivy]

still in character after all these years... the method is strong in her 🙂

[hazy storm]

Your headcanon is just as valid as mine

[worthy ivy]

yeah but in my headcanon Thor is Goku, so...

[hazy storm]

I may join that headcanon

[worthy ivy]

think about it... have you ever seen Thor and Goku in the same place at the same time?

checkmate

[hazy storm]

Boom

Literally

[indigo wadi]

Is Kronos, Vegeta then?

[worthy ivy]

that works - anyone got a transparent Khronos head handy?

[indigo wadi]

Lol

[wet storm]

This might sound harsh but Goku is too chill and unpreocupied to care about what other people think

Thor's deadass Tien

Ki-ko-how you doin

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/friends-joey-how-you-doin-gif-18120107

[wet storm]

Which makes Khronos Chiaotzu

https://tenor.com/view/chao-chaoz-dragon-ball-dragon-ball-z-tongue-gif-14562845644561436566

[indigo wadi]

You're gonna make him that?

Why?

[wet storm]

I don't make the rules

He does

[worthy ivy]

look vegeta, a pokemon!

[wet storm]

VEGETA

The pokemon's on my baaack

[worthy ivy]

DBZA is my goto version - only hit up the Funimation dub when I run out of DBZA episodes

did they ever go back and finish it?

[wet storm]

Same dude

Somehow DBZA is better DBZ than DBZ

[wet storm]

As far as they're concerned, it's finished

Their belief is they can't top the Cell Saga, and they don't seem to like the Buu saga either

[worthy ivy]

I suppose by the time you get to Buu it's become a parody of itself to a degree - hard to satirise satire - and OG Dragon Ball is aimed as a dig at the genre IIRC

[wet storm]

I agree yea

[worthy ivy]

a parody of a pastiche of a satire

[wet storm]

The cell saga was deadass serious and freaky

People getting eaten, Cell being crazy and all that

Compared to Vegeto getting turned into a chocolate candy and using it to have Buu punch himself

[hazy storm]

I mean both things can exist in the same universe

[wet storm]

Yeah it's just that the Buu saga is very unserious

I suppose it feels like putting a hat on a hat to parody it

[worthy ivy]

P is for perfection, the look upon your faces
E is for extinction, of all your puny races
R for revolution, which will be televised
F is for how effed you are, allow me to reprise
E is for eccentric, just listen to my song
C is for completion, that I've waited for so long
T is for the terror, upon you I'll bestow
...
my name is Perfect Cell, and I'd like to say hello

[indigo wadi]

Cell saga is the climax, buu saga is the post nut clarity

[wet storm]

Ew

But yes

[worthy ivy]

from memory

nerd skillz, wut wut!

[wet storm]

Goku's spirit bomb at the end of Buu can't top SSJ2 Gohan

[hazy storm]

Eh. If people want to debate tonal swings i will point to Full Metal Panic and FMP Fumoffu

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/edward-ninatucker-nina-tucker-fullmetal-gif-5713891

Togetherness

So beautiful

[wet storm]

Gotta give man credit he made his chimera

[hazy storm]

Full metal panic not Alchemist

[wet storm]

(I said this in a con and got yelled out of a crowd)

[indigo wadi]

Lol

[worthy ivy]

I always assumed the Buu thing was because someone at the distributors was all "you should make this more suitable for kids" and man said "okay, candy based nightmare fuel then... go!"

[wet storm]

"I'm going to town to buy milk"
"What is milk?"
"It's what cows crave"
"Oh ok"
flies to town and turns a random bystander into a carton of milk
"Is this milk?"

Child me was shocked and appalled

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/is-this-a-pigeon-butterfly-gif-16186537

[hazy storm]

Didn't they do that kind of malicious compliance with Battlestar galactica?

The studio execs wanted a lighthearted episode with a celebration so in the next episode pilots were celebrating something in the hangar and then a missile exploded and killed them all

[worthy ivy]

love me some malicious compliance

'oh, you really want that do you...? okay, here goes'

[hazy storm]

Aw man not SKG again

We were just taking about something fun

[indigo wadi]

And whats your contribution?

Can we just stop posting random videos with no input?

[silver vapor]

signing the initiative, thats all as a way of hopefully helping us consumers/gamers with games not being forever vaulted by Publishers when a game doesnt hit their specific in house required sales, player count, post launch monetization etc.....

[mortal flare]

https://tenor.com/bWXhH.gif

[jolly sky]

Trying to browbeat people into signing a petition isn't going to get more signatures

[late bane]

I forgot to learn about skg and at this point it looks like I saved some time

[worthy ivy]

have Thor as Goku again

[silver vapor]

whos browbeating, I havent forced anyone to sign, shamed people for not signing, spammed the video endlessly, all i have done is post a video, and politely respond, if others did that, well that sucks for them doing that

[indigo wadi]

Are you part of the EU

[jolly sky]

Well, there's already been plenty of sensible arguments against it that people continue to choose to ignore or talk around, and I can't be bothered to bring them up again just for it to go ignored, or circlre around the same argument, again

[silver vapor]

i believe so, they had to verify that I live there on the website for the initative

[jolly sky]

You have to send more proof of your EU residency if it gets all the votes

And if you cannot provide that, your vote is null and void

[brazen drift]

Remebmer theres two seprate signings; one for UK and the other for EU.

[silver vapor]

ok, at least from Accused Farms, everything seems direct in what it would be, which regarding devs whether indie or AAA games would be good for the industry, but to each its own

[jolly sky]

And UK has already had their say on it and isn't going any further

[silver vapor]

im ready to do that

[hard jackal]

first 5 min of that video is nice to have if someone comes in again to blame Thor.

2:46 neutralized any kind of damage thor did to the campaign in my eyes so if we
2:53 don't make it beyond this point it is not because of him like like we've
2:58 think it's just completely neutralized because the momentum we've got has been like what we got before that video came
3:04 out so you know people are saying "oh blame him." well not anymore we we fixed
3:10 that so it's it's on us now if that happens i mean if we don't make it um
3:18 yeah and also couple more a little bit more on that i'm not trying to persecute thor i just wanted to undo the damage to
3:25 the campaign we did it so mission accomplished i am not trying to make his
3:30 life harder i did offer to have a discussion if he wants it but i don't think he does and to be honest neither
3:38 do i really but i would if that helped and i would be civil about it so uh

[wet storm]

I went to get some water and here we are back to skg

Where's the dbz talk

[hazy storm]

Ikr

[wet storm]

Someone hit me with gothor again

[deft charm]

dbz:a is best dbz

[wet storm]

Objectively correct take

[kindred holly]

https://tenor.com/view/mahogany-dragon-ball-z-dbz-king-yemma-dbz-yemma-gif-16798894437069253440

[brazen drift]

Yeah. I think i said it a couple days ago but I genuninely think both of them are good people who got heated about something their passionate about. So hopefully we wont hear anything more about this heavily until the end of july if the initative succeeeds or fails.

[flat moat]

Still blaming Thor for damages but telling people to move on. Where was this months ago? jfc

[jolly sky]

It is far from direct about how the IP or copyright would work out, in other words making sure that Indie/solo devs are able to keep the rights to their own work. This discussion is often drowned out, ignored, or vastly oversimplifies many many aspects of it in favour of "JUST MAKE THE GAME AVAILABLE IT'S SO EASY"

[hazy storm]

Which is the worst one?

[indigo wadi]

Great discourse

[hard jackal]

Don't get uppity with me. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[wet storm]

There's a thought exercise I'd like people to do, for or against, whomever is it that you agree.

LARP for a couple of minutes that the person whose opinion you follow turncoats today.

For example, Ross goes "Actually guys, I think SKG wasn't that good of an idea. We we're gonna affect the quality of life of game developers moreso than the companies they work for. It's not worth it"

Another example, Thor goes "Let me backpedal on what I said. After further consideration, SKG is prety good. Consumer rights are worth the hit the industry will take. Go vote for that."

Really try to get into that headspace. Would that change your mind?

[indigo wadi]

No no not you, referring to the YouTube video

[indigo wadi]

Depends on the info presented.

[flat moat]

So it's a matter of who you are following vs what you believe in?

And which is stronger

[hazy storm]

That's exactly the point Josh makes in his video. Some people will disagree with a position because of the person saying it and vice versa.

And we see this in practice every day

Not everyone but it's not uncommon

[indigo wadi]

I suppose my agreeing and supporting Thor does have a bias with me liking him, but I prioritize his knowledge and expertise first and foremost.

[wet storm]

This is, unless I'm wrong on my literature (I'm an amateur, not a shrink), epistemic peer disagreement mixed with a test of belief ownership.

[nova bough]

i personally used both of these peoples viewpoints as a starting point. at this point unless SKG is revamped, i wouldnt change my mind unless one of them presented a logical argument to change it. them saying "i changed my mind" does nothing atm

[silver vapor]

All from what I understood from the initative is that we will get more of what they did with Redfall for Games that are online only but can be played offline as the Final Patch for the game (whether Single Player with Bots, or Coop) they get a patch (like the devs did in real life) that allows the game to be played offline, games like Back 4 Blood, Suicide Squad KTJL, and others have done in the past.

For Multiplayer Only Games (MOBAs, Battle Royales, PvP, PVE, etc), all that it would be is having Community Funded Servers similar to Battlefield Games where the commmunity can host a server with their own money even in 2025, Battlefield 3 (2011), Battefield 4 (2013), Battlefield 1 (2016) is still playable because of community funded servers

I dont think that is a bad thing, if the initative was saying when the devs stop supporting the game, they must hand over everything from IP to Source Code to the community and if they don't the Government is going to enforce that... if that was the case i wouldnt have signed

[wet storm]

i.e.: someone I respect disagrees with me + "If this person flipped sides, would I still believe what I agreed with prior?"

[indigo wadi]

The spirit is fine. The wording isn't.

[jolly sky]

Which a vast majority of those wants are impossible for some games without giving over the Copyright and IP over to the individual.

[indigo wadi]

And that IS what the initiative aims to do

[flat moat]

Both have points but only one really has the initiative and it's going to take multiple years in order to get the right effect because of wording, IP law, copyright, Developer perspective etc

[indigo wadi]

Force devs/publishers to hand that stuff o er effectively

[hazy storm]

Anyways have fun chatting guys. Ping me when we go back to 90s shows

[gloomy forge]

have a good one patrick

[charred wolf]

Have any of us finished watching the entire video?

[indigo wadi]

DUCKTAILS, WOOHOO

[serene frost]

everyone geets worked up because skg sounds like a good idea. getting back at the publishers and everything. but if you think about it with a bit of perspective on how development works (which is what i think thor was trying to do in his video) then it just sounds so impractical and messy. there's no way a law would get written from the current state of the movement which is actually what people want and wouldnt do damage

[charred wolf]

I'm not even half way through

[hazy storm]

WOOHOO

[indigo wadi]

Which one?

[charred wolf]

The new one

[serene frost]

"handing over ip" isn't possible. especially in large games, there's so much dependency on other licenses and ip that can't "just be handed over"

[indigo wadi]

More specific, there's been a couple

[silver vapor]

if devs are able to create community funded servers like EA in 2011, or have a Final Patch allowing the game playable offline like in Redfall's case, I havent heard that Battlefield is owned by someone other than EA, and Redfall is still owned under Bethesda/Microsoft, unless they sold the IP

[charred wolf]

The one from an hour ago

[brisk sparrow]

by who?

[nova bough]

what would change my mind is someone coming in with actual proof that the EU will take in the correct considerations (ie, indie devs, IT support infra, and lawyers) to ensure that this doesnt backfire on the consumer and the devs (especially indie devs.)

because my problem is i dont trust lawmakers to get it right without specifically being pointed in the right direction

[flat moat]

They mean this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z4w_h2-UkM&t=1995s

[charred wolf]

From ross

[brisk sparrow]

oh you mean the stream VOD

[indigo wadi]

If Redfall was playable offline, then the balancing of the game would have to change

[gloomy forge]

I feel the people in SKG should use more positive language. use GOG as an example how a SKG complient store would look like.

[indigo wadi]

Oh nah, I'm done listening to those drama fest videos

[charred wolf]

Okay so I assume everyone else is caught up, I'll return to the conversation when I am.

[wet storm]

A hundred percent

[gloomy forge]

DRM free games, working forever and as good as possible and even after the store closes, the games are still accessable on a server and requestable should you buy them.

[silver vapor]

agreed, but if we dont have the conversation now, who knows what happens if Ubisoft and some of the other Publishers like them get there way and we truly never own anything again, Im glad I saved what Gaming Consoles and Disks that I can play from my PS2-PS4

[brazen drift]

Also even if this does get all the signatures I can more than bet massive companies will do everything in their power to drown it out or shut it down before it becomes a problem, and if Ross can't even market it toward EU centric content creators without playing a drama card he's certainly not going to be able to stop EA or Sony.

[indigo wadi]

Who pays for that server?

[wet storm]

And at the same time, if I had a rubber mallet that I could bonk onto people's foreheads every time they said something rude and obnoxious like "go read it again" or "it's been said multiple times but people keep arguing around it" or my favourite "you're just not understanding it" I'd've worn the thing down to the handle on this chat alone

[flat moat]

Yeah but the thing is, not everyone essential mentioned in the convo is involved.

[serene frost]

if you want games that last forever, go buy them from places that offer that! GOG is great!

hard copies are great!

[jolly sky]

Because while the game is still being updated and maintained by the devs, it is still within the Copyrights and IP of the developer/publisher. Trying to disconnect all of that after the developer has "finished" with the game, means that someone still needs to own the IP and copyright, which should not be in the hands of the indivividual

[serene frost]

don't force the industry to stop being able to provide games as a service though

[flat moat]

We will all return to dust and so too will knowledge enscribed upon the hardest materials

[silver vapor]

it is Playable Offline, but it was used as The Final Patch of the Game, the last thing the Devs did before the Studio Arkane Austin was folded back into Bethesda. Now if people want to balance Redfall in July of 2025, it will have to be modded by the community

[gloomy forge]

I was fine with SKG before but now I feel that it should be revitten to declare who the holder of the onus is. Like devs shouldnt get burdened by holding compatibility forever, rather it should be the ones coding the operating systems and such.

[flat moat]

Microsoft would flip if that happened

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi I think it would be the polish government should CDPR shut down at some point. they have video game development initiatives, they finance developers to do certain things.

[indigo wadi]

Leaving that to the government? Great idea 😏

[wet storm]

Poland is hella based

[wet storm]

The alternative is corporations

[serene frost]

what? i dont understand what you even mean?

how is operating systems involved here?

[silver vapor]

How is Community Funded Servers for Multiplayer Games and an Offline Mode for SIngle Player/Coop Games taking the IP and Copyright out of Dev and Publisher Hands, thats never been explained to me

[gloomy forge]

I think it was the polska agencja Inwestycji i handlu that handled that.

[wet storm]

I don't think there's a nice way to say this but

European governments are nothing like America

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/bill-paxton-aliens-game-over-gif-27184304

And we can't trust neither.

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost oh let me explain, a operating system is needed to make a game run, should a game last forever, compatibility layers have to be written in order to make the game function. For Linux that would be "WINE".

[wet storm]

I go by their focus in a utilitarian fashion. I don't know if I'm right in this but my gut tells me I am

Corpos want money, government wants votes

[serene frost]

I know what an operating system is, you don't need to be condascending

[wet storm]

Gamers don't vote but buy CoD every time it comes out

[serene frost]

you're arguing about games not getting compatibility patches?

[silver vapor]

European Government is one of the main reasons we moved from Loot Boxes to Battle Passes, as some EU Countries needed the game to show off Percentages of Loot

[serene frost]

and that microsoft would do that?

what

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost what? I wasn't condecending, I was just explaining that you need a operating system to run games, so you can consolidate work by having a team of devs that write compatibility layers instead.

@serene frost they already do.

[indigo wadi]

Government wants control

But

Stopping there

Lol

[wet storm]

And why people can't sell my information unless I consent to it

[wet storm]

Same as corporations

[serene frost]

yeah windows is very good at supporting really old software

but that only goes so far

[indigo wadi]

See? We effd

[serene frost]

especially when it comes to drivers

like gpu drivers needed for modern games

[indigo wadi]

ITS DOOOOOOOOOMED

[wet storm]

People's eyes rolling so hard they fall inward like balls in a pachinko machine

[indigo wadi]

That was sarcasm for those that couldn't tell

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost that "so far" can change though, not only that but I mean compatiblity patches would add another layer/method of lasting compatibility. Not only that, I think people should incentivise directors and publishers to GPL their code at some point, at least for famous frameworks/engines.

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/undertaker-gif-20582866

[silver vapor]

Not saying the government should get involved, but when they have looked at the direction of the games industry, the games industry pays attention from ESRB to Removing Lootboxes, Video Games Industry needs to be scared by Government to make changes

Dont know when PEGI was formed

[wet storm]

And, hot take, game devs need to not be so apathetic that they can't adapt to change

[serene frost]

I in general agree with you, but making that a legal requirement would be kind of insane

[wet storm]

Be like Dehaka

Always moving, always changing

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost I was also arguing in favor of developers having less workload. every making every game last forever would require every dev working on a game to write it in such a way, or rewrite parts of a game due to popular demands? difficult to predict. If you start with the root cause of incompatibilities, that is changing hardware and your operating system, then we're getting to that point more realistically and without putting the onus on the devs.

[wet storm]

Saying something becomes impossible is like, c'mon. I worked with software, there's always a solution.

[silver vapor]

Agreed, shouldnt be a legal requirement, but if EU starts looking, hopefully Game Devs/Publishers will do it, if the initiative leads to force by Goverment to do this or else would be bad

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost whether or not it is a legal requirement can be discussed.

[wet storm]

Also, "the wording is bad, the spirit is good"
The spirit is what matters when it reaches lawmakers. If the wording is terrible they can just go "this part sucks lmao cut it"

"Oh but I don't trust politicians to do that"

At that point you will own nothing and be happy I suppose

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/dehaka-zerg-hots-starcraft-tail-gif-10201909488321397493

[serene frost]

in an ideal world, sure, having things be compatible forever would be amazing. but software really isn't that simple and you can't predict all the ways the future will change things like hardware. there's always going to be bullshit and bodge in every project so the only solutions to have "forever support" would be to force the original makers to maintain support forever (super expensive and the idea of "you made this thing and are now forced to maintain it forever" would have wild negative concequences) or open source (which isn't possible, especially when things like server infrastructure is derived from many other external companies in a complex web of IP bs)

[wet storm]

Giant massive tail with a stinger on a godzilla monster
No tail moves

[indigo wadi]

True

[serene frost]

this all feels like an over-idealised view on how software and game development works

which is honestly a theme throughout all of skg

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost Theres also exceptions in the law, at least in the country I'm in. its not all about "do that" but it also offers alternative that make other laws extempt based on a multitude of reason. But I'm not here to argue, I'm just upset you thought I was writing to you in a condescending tone but I was coming from the point of tackling the issue of compatibility at the foundation.

@serene frost hard disagree there but thats fine.

[serene frost]

apologies for misreading the intent of your messages

[gloomy forge]

@serene frost hey no worries there frenn

[indigo wadi]

This is beautiful

This is how debating should be

[wet storm]

NOOO

Only angee

Moar insults

[indigo wadi]

@cursive solar now here's why you're wrong on every level and should submit /s

[serene frost]

https://tenor.com/bSypF.gif

[gloomy forge]

I feel that this issue really is more complex than it seems, but I'm coming from this angle not from someone who is directly affiliated to the drama, I signed the CI back in april last year or so. I also think open source should be like a sort of voluntary thing, but I don't think forcing the original devs to do a thing is the only solution. I think a process where you have a "core team"/task force that handles all compatibility in terms of providing compatiblity layers and ensuring that drivers run as intended is realistic. Imagine being a retired dev, 80 years of age and then the phone rangs "little billy wants to play doom: eternal but the game doesn't work get on it and fix the issue"

because the guy had the expertise of fixing old games throughout the time he worked as a dev ensuring longliveability. but not centralizing that issue would be hell if every dev needs to ensure their game runs forever.

I feel if people criticise SGK than handling it form the angle of "who is carrying the burden of work?" would be a legit question. What if people want to play a older game that isn't saved because it became before the "SGK bill"? obviously nostalgia also plays into people wanting to save gaming.

[dusky grove]

Drop the beef. He aint even here. Take 5, drink water, maybe some food and a nap

[gloomy forge]

essentially experts needs to come into terms on understanding "how the sausage is made now" vs "how the sausage is made in the future".

[indigo wadi]

My dude, notice the /s?

[gloomy forge]

sorry for the rant just wanting to get my thoughts out.

[dusky grove]

I did. You still pinged him even if it was sarcastic

[hazy storm]

The problem is that now the conversation is so toxic that reasonable devs from both sides likely don't want to wade into the discussion and get sucked under the acidic morass

[indigo wadi]

Cause that was part of the joke after my previous post?

[thick ledge]

You guys are making sausages?

[indigo wadi]

Yes

[hazy storm]

The butcher near my place has the most amazing pork sausages. Parmesan and rapini

[dusky grove]

Yep. But thats the internet for ya

[gloomy forge]

@hazy storm Truth be told, I'm writing this because I'm just worried people will blame any sort of compromise on SKG unreasonably on Thor even though he was trying to say "don't just follow things blindly". Devils advocate are important but it sucks he gets flak over this.

[thick ledge]

In a perfect world, men like me do not exist

[hazy storm]

I hear you

[thick ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/gamer-hank-gif-22074167

[serene frost]

D:

[astral crypt]

Zaf! Respect thyself sir 👀

[serene frost]

a perfect world is one without capital G gamers

[wet storm]

POTION SELLAH

GIVE ME YOUR STRONGEST POTIONS

[serene frost]

but you're probably cool zafaroth

[dusky grove]

People just like yelling. That just how it be

[astral crypt]

Zaf is very cool and I wish I lived closer to him

[thick ledge]

No one ever gets my references Sadge

I mean ur wrong

Im a lameo

But appreciate

[wet storm]

I got your reference with another reference 🥲

[astral crypt]

oh it's a reference? I still no likey

[wet storm]

HEY 🫵

[thick ledge]

Lol

[wet storm]

No personal backchat

[gloomy forge]

Because even if Thor misinterpreted the intend of SKG and all, in the shorts he was talking about how the devs would get treated. Developers are humans and not solely slaves for the costumer. In a utopia it would be one hand washes the other, both producers and creators of something and consumers share the same amount of respect and importance and also also intersectional (devs play games, some consumers also develop things).

[thick ledge]

https://youtu.be/Kl3H4vMqYNo?si=fJnzqZDCV4a7Qndn

[indigo wadi]

W H A T

[gloomy forge]

[thick ledge]

This is also what I look like

[serene frost]

potion seller?

[thick ledge]

Maggie can vouch

[light locust]

Was there a stream today?

[wet storm]

Negative

[thick ledge]

Only a secret khronos stream

[wet storm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_FQU4KzN7A

[light locust]

ty

[indigo wadi]

No

[wet storm]

You gotta love that it's like, 12m views on 190k subs

Truly a legend

[thick ledge]

A hero of improv

[light locust]

ty

[indigo wadi]

I've never understood the point of this video 😂

[thick ledge]

The point is its funny

[wet storm]

Camera effects were novel back then

The potion seller meme has been evergreen in my D&D group for like 6 years

[lunar moth]

I feel so bad but... this angle reminds me of Wowcrendor, and I don't know why... it is still a compliment to the guy, but probably not to Crendor ^^'

[wet storm]

Every time no matter who's the DM it's a "alright get it out of you system" moment whenever we're buying potions

[gloomy forge]

man crendor is such a blast from the past. I remember him playing facade

[thick ledge]

I think he's just crendor now

[lunar moth]

Yeah, he's been for a while I think

[gloomy forge]

the game with the AI that reacts of what you write.

[indigo wadi]

Ahh

[lunar moth]

Actually, nevermind - he's still Wowcrendor

[gloomy forge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gmmeh9WQ-U

[wet storm]

There should be a Façade game but it's an LLM

Costing 300 dollars on Steam needing 80 gb of vram

[gloomy forge]

people would just jailbreak that stuff and turn it into something weird.

for better or for worse

[lunar moth]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/doahDuajP4k
Crendor is just... wonderful! xD

[gloomy forge]

facade was funny because all the stupid stuff was intentional.

man, sometimes these days I wish how would gaming be if TB was still alive.

he was the guy that looks at all the angles of things, not just fully following one group.

he also did always ask the right question when he was in a group of people during podcasts and such.

felt like a "anti influencer" influencer.

[lunar moth]

He also would admit when he was wrong about stuff, which I remember when he remade several of his "WTF is..." because he got something wrong about 'em

(No, this is not a dig against Thor - don't read it as such.)

((This is more commentary of people online in general being stubborn in a negative way.))

[wet storm]

hahahahaha

Omg

[lunar moth]

... I'm going to go and be quiet now.

[jolly sky]

(Sorry for the late reply, I was eating)

Well because when you host a community server, you are also agreeing not to use, modify, sell etc any assets from the game for your own benefit. Whether that be actual in-game assets, or code from the server. If you are found to do so, then the Developer/Publisher can come after you in a court of law.

And since SKG wants the games to be entirely separated from the developers and publishers, upon "End of Life" (whatever that actually means), it means that the Publisher or Developer is then no longer to be able to go after people using their code or assets in a way that they do not want, or agree to.

Hence one of the massive problems about SKG being Copyright and IP law, which hasn't even been thought about. Oh and this is not even considering that a lot of games now use Matchmaking, and not Servers, which makes the whole thing even more complex.

(Also wrong reply was chosen, this was what I meant to reply to;)

#streamchat message

[wet storm]

"For years I banned Ekko 'cos of his stupid dumbass ulti and now I hate him in Arcane"

This is awesome

[gloomy forge]

that took me a while to think what you mean. being watching Thor a while now I felt he often changes his mind when he plays a game and such and people talk to him. I dunno where that "narcissist" angle came from. I mean hes as narcissistic as any other content creator, feels unfair to only blame him.

[flat moat]

The label is only a hook for people to throw when they have no argument or better response

[hazy storm]

I don't mean to derail this totally important discussion of topic that's been covered ad neauseum (jk i totally do) but Gemcraft is on sale on steam for 2 bucks

https://store.steampowered.com/app/296490/GemCraft__Chasing_Shadows?snr=1_25_4__318

Steam

GemCraft - Chasing Shadows

The cult classic tower defense game beloved by millions comes to Steam with GemCraft - Chasing Shadows. Against swarms of vicious, demonic avatars, your only defenses are the gems you conjure that, when placed atop towers or into traps and amplifiers, become conduits for powerful magical and elemental attacks. GemCraft combines fast-paced real\…

Price

$1.99

Recommendations

3447

▶ Play video

[wet storm]

"And since SKG wants the games to be entirely separated from the developers and publishers, upon "End of Life" (whatever that actually means), it means that the Publisher or Developer is then no longer to be able to go after people using their code or assets in a way that they do not want, or agree to."

This entire part is a huge misrepresentation based on a conjecture created to try and explain how something that hasn't even been agreed to yet could be done.

• "End of Life" (whatever that actually means)
  Server shuts down. Game cannot become unplayable

• it means that the Publisher or Developer is then no longer to be able to go after people using their code or assets in a way that they do not want, or agree to.

Nobody said this is how it would work. Even abandoned games have licenses (Ultima 7 from the mid 90s still is copyright of EA)

Old Gran Turismo and Need for Speed games had real cars with real licenses and can still be played 20 years after they came out, on the licensing front. On the IP front, the game doesn't become FOSS when it's killed

[gloomy forge]

Yeah exactly this is like a snake, solving this with simplicity and elegance is gonna take a long time in order to be holistically elegant and considering europe has like 27 different copyright perspectives, as every country handles it in their own way. its even more complex because any of this has to be considered as well.

[wet storm]

From the 1950s when Pong came out up until the mid 2010's games were made in a way you could either bootleg the server side connection or the thing didn't need an internet connection entirely

[gloomy forge]

its not just "eu law" they basically just have a framework most countries can agree on, Germany notoriously has the strictest copyright laws but also the strictest laws in favor of consumer protection.

[lunar moth]

I said I was going to be quiet now but I has theory on this: same reason why there's a subset of people who think he's using a voice changer.
They view themselves as reasonable and rational, and since they dislike Thor, their view must be that disliking Thor is reasonable and rational - so anything that confirms their view of it is evidence and thus must be reasonable and true.

This is the same thing you see conspiracy theorist do. Because of how prevalent this line of thinking is within Flat Earth communities/cults, it is a phenomena that's somewhat studied, and it basically just boils down to an extreme version of confirmation bias. Add onto that the communities of people who repeat this, it becomes a cyclical way of viewing evidence and the world.

So, likely someone once said "Thor is a narcissist because I think he is" and then it got picked up and folks ran with it, shoehorning and pigeonholing everything possible to make that math some version of reality. Make it into a meme (also known as a 'repeatable mantra') and it doesn't matter whether it is true or not. Folks repeat it so they believe it is true, so others repeat it because other people are convinced that it is true.

This is extremely common within cults to think and behave like this, and yes - I am using an analysis of cult-behaviour to try to understand the type and amount of hate Thor is receiving.
And you can do this for everything that they claim, and this is why it gets repeated to the degree it does. See folks thinking such a benign thing as "he has a deep voice" became a mantra for 'em to repeat.

[gloomy forge]

Pong came out in the 1970s

[wet storm]

Original OG pong came out in 1958

[jolly sky]

"Server shuts down. Game cannot become unplayable"

What about games that rely on servers to be playable? A lot of games aren't just running off of one singular server, it's a mesh and collaboration of many, and adapting that to make it run on a personal machine offline is damn near impossible for a lot of games

[wet storm]

Yeah I said original twice

[gloomy forge]

@wet storm Oh, I know of Space War.

[wet storm]

I also say ATM machine

[late bane]

They hate a man who sticks to his guns, he bends to no man. He can only be corrupted by Gregs

[gloomy forge]

But the original Pong? i need to read on that.

[brazen drift]

I feel like OLD games are an unfair example because online services weren't really a thing then. They were all splitscreen multiplayer and you can even still play them splitscreen multiplayer if you have a working console. But even with all the SKG wording, EVENTUALLY the actual CONSOLES that these games are on will kill their network access and render the games unplayable on consoles that way.

[wet storm]

Then release a server executable. "Oh but my game is too complicated and relies on too many microservices"

Develop your game with that in mind then

[gloomy forge]

I can't find anything about a 1970 pong D:

[brazen drift]

You can still play Ps3 games, but unless you have an emulator that somehow magically runs you aren't playing any online ps3 games.

[gloomy forge]

I'm upset about my own lack of knowledge.

[wet storm]

There's servers that emulate every single aspect of WoW up until Dragonflight. You can't tell me it's an impossible task

[jolly sky]

So what if no one wants to host or make servers for it? The game is once again in an unplayable state

[silver vapor]

remember the Initative isnt retroactive would be for future games developed

[wet storm]

The company fulfilled it's legal responsibility. This part is irrelevant

[wet storm]

Yeah I mean for future games ofc

[jolly sky]

The developer should also not be legally forced to hand over its server binaries either

[late bane]

Wait wouldn't that make games infinitely more expensive since now online games would need permanent servers and support

[wet storm]

And tbh if this does goes into lawmaking voting it'll be at least like 4 years until something comes out of it

If a dev can't figure it out in 4 years they may not be that good a dev to begin with

[jolly sky]

So, then legally making a bunch of games that people enjoy, now no longer makeable, lmao ok

[gloomy forge]

yeah I wrote that 3 days ago, will take half a decade or 6 years.

[wet storm]

Don't need to be that old. Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3.

[late bane]

There are no good or bad devs, just people who are learning

[jolly sky]

Literally destroying an artform before it can be made.

It's like saying "Yea now you can't paint in watercolour"

[wet storm]

That's not what I said

And you didn't explain how

I ask that you argue in good faith

Instead of obnoxiously going "lmao destroy art form"

[silver vapor]

could you explain, i do not understand this point

[wet storm]

What art form is being destroyed? How is it being destroyed? How come that same artform is already preserved in many, many instances should it die?

[gloomy forge]

the best thing they could do is for work on backporting old releases too, old game but new package. that SKG tried to preserve modern gaming seems good, but its sad as well considering a large percentage of the history of gaming would be forgotten in time.

[brazen drift]

Yes but in another 10 years I'm sure PS4 networks are going to close permanently, so Ps4 exclusive games will go down too. *Lookin HARD at the Nintendo consoles *

[gloomy forge]

its like preserving tiktok but not YTMND.

[wet storm]

Law isn't retrograde, massive RIP. Nothing to be done but mourn I suppose

[late bane]

Long live ps1 n 2 for disks i can replay lol

[wet storm]

Also this makes me sad you made me sad

[wet storm]

Did I say binaries?

I said executable

[gloomy forge]

@wet storm Technically they can just rerelease a old game with little effort or consumers can make demands to rerelease games.

[wet storm]

Sorry, I didn't understand. What do you mean?

[dusky grove]

imma get crucified for this, but I didn't like arcane

[late bane]

I never watched it

So same boat

[wet storm]

I thought arcane was mid, but it's like pineapple on pizza isn't it

[gloomy forge]

edited it, sorry was busy and typed too inconsiderate.

[wet storm]

None for me, all for thee

[jolly sky]

The artform of live service games. The way a lot of them are made are impossible to just simply recreate on an individual level, or even on a multi-user level without being given access to the code that was made by the developers

[lunar moth]

It effectively is.
Just because it says it isn't doesn't mean that it isn't.

"Games like these would need to be either retired or grandfathered in before new law went into effect." --> What this means is that games that currently work cannot continue to operate as they do right now were they ever to be updated. Because any update to a program requires the program to comply with current laws, since any update now effectively from a legal sense makes an "old" program into a "new version" which has to comply with the law.

Because of this, SKG openly states that they want to kill off any games that currently work as said games cannot be updated. Games that doesn't get update bleed players and dies.

[gloomy forge]

English is not my primary language too pls respecc

[minor nymph]

https://x.com/PirateSoftware/status/1939389766640005357

Pirate Software (@PirateSoftware)

@Pirat_Nation Heartbound does not have always online DRM.

The game checks to see if it is running through steam in online or offline mode and also checks to see if a person is running it from a few piracy sites we know repackage it with malware. If a hit detects it replaces the text telling

X · Jun 29, 2025, 6:25 PM

https://x.com/PirateSoftware/status/1939388822678343823

Pirate Software (@PirateSoftware)

@vxunderground In this case "code cave" was the term we used to describe where cheating tools injected themselves into the client for their hook. This is generally done in an area of non-volatile memory meaning it won't get overwritten. Stable area of injection = Code Cave.

At times we would

X · Jun 29, 2025, 6:21 PM

[late bane]

Ah that guys an ass

[jolly sky]

Oh lmao I saw this "review"

[lunar moth]

Hey there Thor!

[dusky grove]

oh hi thor

[wet storm]

If it's impossible, how can people reverse engineer the entire series of server calculations and events to make private Tibia, Ragnarok Online, RF Online, FFF, Ultima Online and goddamn WoW, amongst countless other MMOs?

[lunar moth]

That's fine, people are allowed to have wrongful opinions! xD

[jolly sky]

Guess what? A lot of those reverse engineering is illegal

Especially WoW

[wet storm]

Irrelevant

[brazen drift]

I think SKG Works on PC games since those can have the incredible longevity, but Consoles have a DIFINITIVE end of life. Even if you make it so all those games do have the ability to be patched long after the devs are gone, if a Console is being sunsetted there is Nothing to do about that.

[wet storm]

We're talking about it being impossible

[fickle bluff]

Singleplayer games aren't part of the argument. Those shouldn't have mandatory online connectivity in the first place. Always-online live-service games is where the issue lies. As long as you hold the copyright, you got certain legal responsibilities. Let's try a little thought experiment:

WoW reaches the end of it's lifecycle and devs release an End of Life (EoL) server build to the community. Since they want to hold the copyright, it is released under a free licence. outlining how it can be used. And so Community Funded Servers start to emerge. Little Timmy comes to one of those servers. He likes the game, but at some point gets repeatedly bullied and ultimately offs himself. His parents go to court, demanding justice. Logically, the server owner would be responsible, for not moderating the server enough. But the server is run by Boris from his basement in eastern Russia, so he's out of legal reach. But he did get this server licenced by Blizzard. So now it becomes Blizzard's fault for not ensuring their licensees run their servers properly. And just like that Blizzard faces a legal action and extremely bad publicity.

On another note, the moment those EoL builds hit the internet, they are gonna be pirated. And now all private WoW servers, that are run illegally, have an official server build on their hands and are profiting off of it.

https://tenor.com/view/whew-goldblum-gif-9488217759752037566

[jolly sky]

Not irrrelevent, it's illegal for a reason, because it puts the developer and/or publisher IP's at risk

[brazen drift]

Eventually, those games Will Die because the console itself is dying.

[wet storm]

Bro this industry shill thing is so friggin obnoxious

[indigo wadi]

But it doesn't specify that

[late bane]

So what's the end goal anyway, like games stay up permanently?

[wet storm]

Even the RoA2 has an offline mode

[silver vapor]

whoa, how do we get to suicide from stop killing games

[gloomy forge]

ok guys who of you was this?

[minor nymph]

LOL

[minor nymph]

Yeah it's absurd

[wet storm]

I meant people saying you have a stake in this because your games are always online or something

[minor nymph]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
https://x.com/grok/status/1939390416522256489

Grok (@grok)

@chaeynz_ @PirateSoftware @vxunderground The terms "code cave" and "polymorphic code" are real. A code cave is unused memory where hackers inject code, often for game cheating. Polymorphic code changes its form to evade detection, commonly used in malware. However, the claim of 20 years of hacking experience and work on

X · Jun 29, 2025, 6:28 PM

[wet storm]

What IP?

The game is dead

There's no more support

[gloomy forge]

and it responded

[indigo wadi]

Rekt lol

[gloomy forge]

ohhh thor already posted it but still

[jolly sky]

Doesn't mean that an individual has the rights to the game that they didn't make, which reverse engineering a game literally risks just that. Hence why it's illegal/against ToS to reverse engineer code

[dusky grove]

one of the few AI wins I'm happy with

[indigo wadi]

"GROK IS WRONG, THOR CODED GROK TO SAY THAT"

[fallow fable]

but who has the pants on fire?

[late bane]

@grok toast me some bread, definitely not for the mods or something

[wet storm]

Bro if I bought something I have rights to what I bought. If the company is literally not making money off the game anymore, what IP is being infringed by releasing a packaged server executable?

[jolly sky]

You do not, and should not, have the rights to use assets and code that you didn't make, which is what reverse engineering does

[cursive solar]

I just got a notification on my phone only just now, what was this about

[indigo wadi]

You have a right to a license you bought, until the company takes thr license away for whatever reason

[gloomy forge]

Yeah i feel SKG could be used retroactively to argue in favor of "abandonware" too.

[late bane]

Just like a drivers license i guess games can expire too

[wet storm]

Then that needs to be put in big, broad, capital balloon shaded in red letters on the store page rather than tucked away in an EULA written in the country that takes lawmaking so literally it becomes obnoxious

[jolly sky]

This is why you cannot claim someones art as your own, and just say "I made this" and start selling it

[indigo wadi]

I made a post above this comment about how debates should be done and that it was beautiful, then did an ironic funny of doing the opposite with you lol

[gloomy forge]

I mean people still need to consider that public domain also exist, what about code?

[lunar moth]

That was one of the suggestions on how to "solve" this, which Ross Scott very clearly said "NO!" to.

[wet storm]

You will own nothing and be happy for it

[cursive solar]

Oh lol

[silver vapor]

but if that is the only way to play a game from a studio that no longer exists because the studio doesnt exist, but people still want to play, like CONCORD, what can people do

[gloomy forge]

because copyright expires, in the US its 70 years I think. Germany too.

[nova bough]

cat.

[gloomy forge]

[wet storm]

Lifehax, make your game life service and license it to dodge the SKG law

[brazen drift]

i thought it was 100 now because of disney's shennanigains

[lunar moth]

Close, but not quite a cat - kinda like a cat toy though, but not quite a cat

[wet storm]

Make everything Netflix

[late bane]

Bailey pictures when

[wet storm]

Actual apocalypse

[jolly sky]

So imagine you had a favourite live service game made by a small team or solo dev, and you wanted to see them make a sequel. But yet the Initiative lead to that team having to give up their games IP and Copyright, (which means that they don't own it, and anyone could make a new game with their characters or design and couldn't be stopped) or forced them to pay to keep supporting an older game, and run out of money so now they can't make a sequel, or they are forced to close.

This scenario is exactly what people are afraid the Initiative will bring.

[indigo wadi]

And, a cheap game can be done to keep the copyright going

[gloomy forge]

monka

[fallow fable]

monke

[wet storm]

I would still buy the sequel 'cos it's new and shiny

[wet storm]

That's how sequels work

[fickle bluff]

An extreme example for sure, but not an unprecedented one. The point is, copyright holder will always be held responsible, to some capacity, for every bad thing that'll happen on Community Funded Servers.

[brazen drift]

you missed the point hat they may not be able to make a sequel

[wet storm]

Blood Money came out people stopped playing Contracts

[jolly sky]

You don't understand, they can no longer make a sequel because they then no longer own the game to make a sequel from

[gloomy forge]

a world where everything becomes a sort of service where you own nothing is bad, delete your comment so netflix doesn't read this

[wet storm]

I didn't, because I already said my piece on it

[late bane]

Yall type so fast its like sharks after a bait ball and I'm just as dumba** mola mola watching with a blank stare

[wet storm]

You don't lose rights to your brand from releasing a server binary

[lunar moth]

That's kinda the point of licenses, and that's why I'm in favour of a solution where people are made aware of it.
I'd still buy a game if I was told I'd be buying a license to access it, since that's what I do anyways - hell, anyone who has ever used Steam does that (although it is a Steam key game's license, which doesn't work the exact same way but Steam is an example of licensed games as well).

[gloomy forge]

yeah me too sometimes its like a dragonball fight where the fighters move so fast they turn invisible.

[nova bough]

bait is delicious

[wet storm]

I can't make WoW: Rickydom if WoW shuts down. I can run WoW as it was, at end of life

(in this scenario, hypothetically)

If the studio shuts down, IP gets passed around. Might and Magic went from NWC, to 3DO, to Ubisoft

(RIP)

[jolly sky]

Which, from SKG's own FAQ, isn't what their goal is. They want the games to be completely seperated from the Publishers. Which also means the Copyright and IP law too. And that is not something which should be legally enforced

[indigo wadi]

And is a shell if it's former welf

[gloomy forge]

Yeah if its a popular IP thats always the case.

[brazen drift]

But there wouldn't be a sequel to buy. It's like Fallout NV; Obsidian made it but they couldn't legally make a fallout nv sequel so they had to go create a whole new IP to make a game sorta resembling the Fallout franchise.

[late bane]

Actually on this topic and Dune, won't everyone on the lose their stuff when the private servers end

[wet storm]

"Which also means the Copyright and IP law too." this is a conjecture. The law is what gets written, not the website's FAQ

[indigo wadi]

Yup

[gloomy forge]

I wonder what happened to Beyond Good and Evil 2.

[brazen drift]

[jolly sky]

And said current law and Copyright is exactly the mess that SKG decided to get involved in without giving it a single thought

[wet storm]

I need to re-read it because there's been so much conjecture and interpretation turning into factual hypothesis I can't trust that quote

[cursive solar]

Or vampire the masquerade bloodlines 2... that games is in a cycle of delays right now

[gloomy forge]

because of all that hell thats probably going on in the background there.

[wet storm]

"without giving it a single thought"
Ok I think there's not much to be said

[indigo wadi]

RIP

[brazen drift]

Hey remember when they had to patch Alan Wake on Steam because the license to the music that was in it ran out

[wet storm]

That's just bad faith arguing

[brazen drift]

great times.

[late bane]

[lunar moth]

Of course you can't; because it is Blizzard's IP, they have the money to sue and send cease and desist letters.
The whole critique is that smaller studios would be disproportionately hurt by this since they don't have the same resources to protect their IP.

It just takes one failed case of defending your IP and you lose it completely. To defend an IP is perpetual until it enters the public domain which, I'll be entirely honest, I have no idea how that works for video games.

[indigo wadi]

what are your thoughts on what's currently been shown for BL2?

[wet storm]

They went even further beyond

[jolly sky]

Considering that when something similar to it is brought up in the Initiative and is just hand-waived away, no not really.

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/super-saiyan3-goku-screaming-power-up-super-saiyan-gif-16330277

[gloomy forge]

@jolly sky 100% reasonable, I thats why I felt its better to have a sort of grassroots video game preservation movement that fights to preserve gaming, even if that means lobbying.

[wet storm]

???
So because some people handwave it you get to conjecture?

Two wrongs don't make a right

[indigo wadi]

Ya know...mattpatt entered the political ring

[light locust]

https://tenor.com/view/i’m-tired-of-this-grandpa-well-that’s-too-damn-bad-holes-too-bad-oh-well-gif-6544454535674363748

all of skg RN

[wet storm]

In fact, three lefts make a right

[indigo wadi]

Formula please

[gloomy forge]

@indigo wadi yeah true.

[cursive solar]

so im a fairly new fan of vtm but so far im liking it i think, im a little concerned of the lack of RPG related stuff but it might still be a good game still, hopefully. i finished vtm redemption (except for the final boss cause damn) and finished bloodlines 1 which was peak

[wet storm]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aayL0LfrLp8

[indigo wadi]

Both games are fantastic

[gloomy forge]

bloodlines was insanely good, that compatibility/unofficial patch mod is so well made.

[proud depot]

In 2026 we will get works made in 1930 in the public domain. It will be 2068 when pong enters the public domain with that timeline. Assuming laws don't change by then

[indigo wadi]

What did you choose for the Malkavian Chick/s?

[cursive solar]

i havent found a single other person who played redemption which makes me sad cause damn the characters and story in that game is fantastic

[light locust]

Zoids ! there should be more Zoids games

[late bane]

Yes

[cursive solar]

oh i chose the business version, i forgot her name haha

[indigo wadi]

I have 😄

[indigo wadi]

Did ya know you can save both?

[cursive solar]

wait actually???

[nova bough]

zooiiiids

https://tenor.com/view/liger-zero-zoids-anime-run-power-gif-17152131

[late bane]

Id settle on Burnout coming back to life

[cursive solar]

i thought you could just save only 1 version of her

[indigo wadi]

Yup.

1 point in seduction, then a few specific dialogue choices

[proud depot]

And Mario and Donkey Kong as seen in the original arcade game would be protected until 2077

[wet storm]

I'm not a fan of this train of thought because it implies both that smaller studios can have their IPs stolen from defunct studios at any point without licensing and that SKG will somehow make it more frequent

[gloomy forge]

Sorry frenn I try to reread messages and I get confused, what do you mean by this :kekw: I'm "lost in the sauce" as zoomers like to say.

[light locust]

https://tenor.com/view/zoids-judgeman-gif-14414723742488460451

[wet storm]

Historically (looking at you EA) they just buy the studio to avoid legal trouble

[cursive solar]

damn, well i was planning on doing another playthrough so guess i have something more to do lol

[indigo wadi]

EA needs to be disbanned

[wet storm]

Because if a big studio steals an IP, another big studio can just buy it and sue the first one

Free win

[indigo wadi]

Also, play a Malkavian character. The dialogur choices are WILD

[lunar moth]

Thanks for letting me know! ^^

[late bane]

Funny how Nintendo replaced EA as the a**clown of gaming

[indigo wadi]

Nah that's still EA

[late bane]

They are certainly trying

[indigo wadi]

At least for me

[cursive solar]

oh yea i heard for first playthrough it wasnt recommended but i know how different it is with malkavian lol

heard theres a part in the game where you start arguing with a sign or something?

[indigo wadi]

Their desecration of C&C will forever hold my ire

[proud depot]

It seems to be true that every other console kinda sucks. Like nintendo gets too proud of themselves and thinks they can do no wrong with one console, then gets humbled by the next

[indigo wadi]

Nosferato is probably the hardest playthrough

[brazen drift]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-por-que-no-los-dos-yey-gif-15089379

[indigo wadi]

And tires

[cursive solar]

oh yea cause you probably have to just navigate through sewers, which sounds like pain

[wet storm]

I'm ngl, I'm an ass hat. I'm not very proud of it, it's a character flaw.

When arguing I come in with an expectation that it'll be on a certain high level and, considering this is a text chat, a bit unserious (hence why I poke some jokes here and there)

"This was made without a single thought put into it" is a strawman. A conjecture is made true and added to the premise using hyperbole or dismissal

"Those private servers are illegal and people can steal IPs" is irrelevant conclusion. It doesn't attack or protect the premise

[lunar moth]

SKG wouldn't just make it more frequent, but how SKG is written and with what Ross Scott has said; it is the intention of the initiative to make this type of hostile takeover pseudo-legal.

I have read and listened enough of Ross thoughts from the past 15 years to know that whilst he wouldn't say this explicitly, he certainly does intend this.

[indigo wadi]

My first playthrough wad with Tremere. Blood Magic is OP

[wet storm]

But it's an internet argument so meh

[indigo wadi]

Yeah and can't be seen in light. Super tough

[cursive solar]

mine was toreador, i tried doing mostly stealth

[brazen drift]

in my humble opinion all large major old companies (like Ea, Ubisoft, ect) are donkey clowns at this point in time.

[cursive solar]

and speech related stuff

[wet storm]

The bit of this being pseudo-legal, to me, looks more like it's an illegal practice now that would still be illegal then

[dusky grove]

Agreed (looks at recent mario kart update)

[proud depot]

I do think there would be one company who would seriously go: "ok we're done supporting this game, here is everything you need to run your own servers and push your own updates" which would be valve with TF2

[indigo wadi]

Remember the hotel? That freaked the hell out of me the first time

[lunar moth]

Most people in this discord would tend to agree with ya' so... yes.

[thick ledge]

That's messed up if true

[cursive solar]

my god yea haha, i was kinda shocked how well the horror was done

[brazen drift]

microsoft being probably the least donkey clown of them but they will eventually shed the horse costume

[wet storm]

That hotel is IMO the best piece of horror in any videogame ever

[thick ledge]

Intentionally destroying indies while audibly complaining about big companies is ew

[wet storm]

Because you're a vampire

[indigo wadi]

Favorite NPC from the game?

[wet storm]

You're a monster

[dusky grove]

they did ask the community for MvM suggestions recently tho. I guess someone found the defibrilator

[wet storm]

And now you're scared

[cursive solar]

id have to think

[indigo wadi]

Right!!

[gloomy forge]

The best horror game series i ever played was the CHZO Mythos, phenomenal games IMHO.

[wet storm]

Based

So based

[indigo wadi]

I got 3

[wet storm]

Fellow yahtzee enjoyer

[lunar moth]

The thing that makes it pseudo-legal is that the hostile takeover aspect would be legal, it has some legal dubiousness to it at its conclusion and the necessary steps to do it would be illegal (DDoS attacks are always illegal). But the actual takeover of the game, server, infrastructure, end-of-life plan, and so on; all of that would be legal - or at the very least, it would be legal since there's no one who would legally still exist that could dispute it in court.

Basically all actors that would exist would legally no longer have effective standing in court to defend their IP being used in essentially a free-for-all type of a way.

[frosty socket]

not always looks at the shadow of mordor/war series

[gloomy forge]

And Clock Tower, that made me creep out too. Silent Hill 2 maaaybe is up there but it didn't creep me out as much as CHZO Mythos, I had to actually stop playing it because I got me spooked a lil

[cursive solar]

you go first then im looking up character names cause forgot some of the names

[gloomy forge]

@wet storm yeah nice that at least someone remembers.

[cursive solar]

jack is in my top 3 tho

[wet storm]

I understand this point. I don't recall, does the initiative mention monetizing abandoned games?

[indigo wadi]

1: Gary
2: Officer Chunk
3: Jack

[cursive solar]

oh my god yeee! officer chunk was hella funny

[wet storm]

Ayo

[indigo wadi]

So clueless but so amazing

[wet storm]

@frosty socket what happened with Shadow of bad stuff?

[cursive solar]

damn i basically would agree with you, officer chunk and jack would be in my top 3

[indigo wadi]

Oh I have a 4th

[cursive solar]

i think either knox or david hatter would be my 3rd

[brazen drift]

They copywritted the Nemesis system so nobody but they could use it and then they only made one sequel that was pretty mid and did nothing else with it.

[indigo wadi]

4: Andrei

[thick ledge]

i mean if your goal is to wrest control of games from thier creators, creating this hole would be the way to do it

[lunar moth]

The thing to note of Scott Ross is that for him, he's calling it an intiative but it really is just a slogan he has basically created an identity around himself. Part of that identity is that he believes there's certain types of games that shouldn't exist, and he seems to not think there's anything wrong with these games vanishing if it achieves his goals.

Is it a stated goal? No.
Does he personally want this? No.
Is it a conclusion because of his stance and arguments? Yes.

And he does have the intention to make the strongest possible arguments to make the types of games he think shouldn't be allowed to be made to be illegal. He has made concessions over the years but none of them really mean that much; he is not against online games but he wants to be in charge of his own games, he has no issues with cheaters in games as long as he gets to control whether they are part of the server he is on or not - this is a conclusion of him stating that "cheaters/exploiters would have access to the games again once the servers shut down." Which... also means that said cheaters have an incentive to try to shut down said servers as well.

[wet storm]

But WBG still owns the IP, right?

[brazen drift]

like when... atari? Sega? put a copywrite on minigame loading screens

[thick ledge]

then you spend a relatively small amount of money to rip something from someone

[cursive solar]

oh my god he was such a good character, i was kinda sad when he wasnt in it more in my playthrough, the voice actor for him is so good

[brazen drift]

they own the Shadow of Mordor IP, but they put a Copywrite on the actual MECHANICS of the game. Like Nintendo putting one on capturing creatures in a ball.

[indigo wadi]

I wish more Sabbat had been featured

[wet storm]

That was horribly messed up yea

I wonder if Nintendo got that one

Palworld in shambles

Thor capturing a trainer is a core memory

[brazen drift]

They also put one on riding mechanics for creatures :)

[indigo wadi]

I'm nearly home, when I get home, I'll tell ya a couple of mods to get and play with

[wet storm]

Bethesda's horse armor in shambles

[lunar moth]

Pretty sure it doesn't.
I think that's the main rhetoric that they use that there's "games that are no longer profitable but cannot be played" and that seems to be where his idea of SKG comes from and this is from like... 15+ years ago.

[gloomy forge]

@lunar moth honestly, its a good argument in peoples favor. if games are art, it should be that it allows for all types of games. Once making games it stiffled, it wouldn't fall under the rules of art anymore as well. Would be a sad paradox.

[cursive solar]

thats why i lean on liking the story a little more in redemption, love the sabbat

[dusky grove]

so this popped up in my feed. Oddly... apt. with everything happening recently

https://youtu.be/BxV14h0kFs0?si=-0NP6znTjF3wb4ot

[brazen drift]

anybody wanna paraglide off their creatures? -gets hit with a nintendo dmca so hard their head spins comically-

[wet storm]

Everything on the internet is a lie

[gloomy forge]

If games are art, people should be allowed to express any ideal within it.

[wet storm]

Omg in the first 30 seconds he pwned me

Completely destroyed my meme

[brazen drift]

Pretty sure uhhhh Bloober put a copywrite on the split screen vision thing that they did with the medium too

[gloomy forge]

Tom Scott and Veritasium are some of the best content producers on youtube IMHO.