streamchat

[waxen comet]

and its a live service game to boot

[distant rapids]

I think a lot of people dont realize that you can't press a button to have 3rd party servers be made for it very easily. It takes devtime to make apis and other tools so that people would be able to make privately hosted servers, or they could throw it into the aether and hope people make those tools for them, like many modders have for other games... but that would be against the idea of skg if produced to the fullest. So that's a catch 22 if skg was fully realized as written, you now need to put devtime for every multiplayer game to be compatible with 3rd parties. Looks good to consumer, honestly achievable for bigger dev studios, can kill smaller studios or solo devs.

[waxen comet]

in short: some games can easily transition to offline, some cant

[versed geyser]

You can, and it's happened before . It's been done officially, unofficially, well, and poorly.

[teal zodiac]

i mean, the whole history is way more complicated thn just "EoSed by Nintendo". Actually Nintendo was holding the game as much as possible, even tried to gain market with graphic novels and etc, but none of this worked since the localized prices on US were handled so badly that ended up hurting the whole game.

[waxen comet]

just because it happened before doesnt mean it can always happen

[distant rapids]

I address that in my comment, i know its long heh

[idle hill]

With SKG as it is, you have three options:
-The developers are required to release their source code
-The developers are required to take time and money out of their pocket to develop a foundation for players to make servers when the game shuts down
-The developers pull their games from the EU because the initiative's wording sucks

[ripe minnow]

If you want to know why the SKG initiative is worded how it is Ross says so here from 20:20-21:20 Link starts at 20:19 https://youtu.be/p9ahH6HrtTc?feature=shared&t=1219

they could also do public domain

[waxen comet]

theres a 4th option where they just wont make games that are applicable to that law

[teal zodiac]

Record Keeper was able to separate the JP version from the Global and even tho the business on global was bad the JP version was never affected. FFRK eos on global a LONG time ago but its still very strong on JP. Sadly not all gachas can do the same. Dragalia had mixed economies so...ended up like that

[versed geyser]

It's not more dev time, it's different and in some cases less. Service code is tedious and usually implemented by launchers.

[distant rapids]

Yes, i heard his reasoning. I disagree with the validity of his reasoning. I think lawmakers need MORE specificity, not less, because they dont understand these newfangled device-compooters

[tight bramble]

Ok i have to focus in div2. Focus up Charles.

[waxen comet]

its always more dev time assuming its live service to offline, because no matter what you do, then someone has to make it compatible offline if it was ever ONLY online. even if that time is like 1 minute, that is still technically more dev time

[distant rapids]

Are you saying that launchers are not made by the devs (i am using devs as a catch-all for those who are working on a game)

[waxen comet]

if it was already compatible offline, then it wasnt under SKG to begin with

[versed geyser]

That's what happens if the signatures are met. It's perfectly normal for them not to be consulted at this stage - imagine if every ECI was judged by how consultancy is involved so early. That's a lot of time from both parties for an ECI that mightn't even meet its threshold.

[rancid mauve]

yup. lots of the diehard proponents of SKG (again, im not against the idea), dont have the faintest idea of what the current gaming landscape is like. Gaming is not the tiny static thing it was before.

For some context, there is still the constant moaning about "why are old games just as graphically impressive as the new ones?". There is no understanding of the difference between prerendered sequences and dynamic scenes, nor is there an understanding of things like raytracing and shadowmaps...

[versed geyser]

Nope they're usually publisher maintained, by their service devs.

[teal zodiac]

On a side note. Sweet lord have mercy, this thing is so absurdly aggressive i can barely survive, let alone attack. (maybe spoiler for MonHunS2)

[idle hill]

This is gross.
"Games that can't have an 'end of life' plan because they licensed some code will have to shut down before new law takes effect. Sucks to suck"

[versed geyser]

E.g. Battle Net launcher isn't made by the Hearthstone team etc

[versed geyser]

I don't get that either, the legislation isn't retrospective.

[rancid mauve]

I get that we dont want games to just get tossed and never see the light of day again, but the problem is that doing that is more complicated than it might initially seem, and that needs to be acknowledged. Again, im not against SKG. I just get why Thor would want to make sure that the core proponents understand there is nuance involved. we dont want people making laws about things they dont understand.

[fading cradle]

The financial problem is not an issue for consumers. It's for the devs to worry about.

[teal zodiac]

The Hearthstone team must be 3 guys and a cat at this point, they always feel so isolated and abandoned by blizzard

[versed geyser]

It's both, and it's not a financial thing it's an implementation thing.

[idle hill]

They say it in their FAQ and their objective plan, all games that sell or license in the EU would have to have an end of life plan. That means any and all games that are on the market at the time new laws would come into effect, and all games thereafter. It absolutely affects games retroactively, but it does not affect games that have already been taken off the market.

[dusky grove]

So they foot the bill and you don't expect them to charge more after?

If it costs more to make, they sell it for higher. Thats basic common sense. Most people want to make money, not just for greed but to... yknow... survive

[distant rapids]

I see. I think you are missing my point here, let me clarify. It still takes dev time under a payroll, whether that is "outsourced" to a publisher or not. It's not going to happen at a press of a simple red button. It's extra time taken by small devs without publishers, amd extra time taken by publishers who have the extra incentive to not publish more games. That is what i am hesitant about.

[spare topaz]

that part wont pass muster through review; the EU always makes clear when introducing new regs that anything placed on the market prior to the implementation point will still remain valid

[versed geyser]

I know, and it's wrong. It can't be. Industry will be bringing that up as well. I don't expect it to impact existing services and it shouldn't.

[fading cradle]

Why worry about the big corpos? They have all the money in the world. Even indie devs support this initiative

[distant rapids]

Oog my debate brain is tired. Gn 😴

Gl with the good debates, peeps. May the nuance abound.

[fading cradle]

How many tiny indie devs making these "grand live service games" would be most affected?

[dusky grove]

Because it won't JUST affect big corpos, it affects every dev if it sets a precedent.

And while I hate the predatory practices of corpos, the employees there still need to put food on their plate.

[terse pelican]

These big corpos have average human beings working in them that are going to have their work affected?

[fading cradle]

Nobody cares about the devs, mind you.

[teal zodiac]

huh

[dusky grove]

I wouldn't say indie, but there are much smaller studios working on live service games. Among us, the many smaller smash clones, etc

[dusky grove]

???????????????

Thats just messed up dude

[spare topaz]

do you think end of life plans are free? devs, even indie devs, would need to take into account what end of life means, how to implement it, and take steps to reasonably future proof it so that the next driver update or OS refresh doesnt brick it.

not insurmountable things, but still things that need considering, and whatever comes out of this must take steps to make sure indies are not overly burdened by it

[dusky grove]

They're peopple too

[fading cradle]

Many supporters of the initiative don't give a flying fck about the devs' load

[teal zodiac]

erm...now that's too much

[idle hill]

Imagine coming into a game development discord and telling them no one cares about them
Wild take

[dusky grove]

Not to mention like half the server is filled with people working on devving games

Thats like going to a library and saying novody reads books anymore

[fading cradle]

Because it is, consumers side is most diametrically opposed to developers

[dusky grove]

AHAHAHAHA

[spare topaz]

thats...depressing

[rancid mauve]

i think there might be some misunderstandings happening?

[idle hill]

but not surprising!

[dusky grove]

Almost always

[teal zodiac]

erm...what

[ripe minnow]

that's the internet daily

[rancid mauve]

one side does not have to be the enemy of the other...

[fading cradle]

Here are some comments:

"Thor saying this will end live service games is the most stupidest r-word thing I have heard. Developers will jump at every hoop they need to to get that fat juicy live service money."

[teal zodiac]

they can be distant sometimes for sure but diametrically opposed? hmmm

[dusky grove]

Who dafuq said that?

[warped venture]

Correct me if I'm wrong are you saying this is the sentiment in general, or how you feel about devs? Convo is just getting a little confused here.

[fading cradle]

comment in Harmful Opinions

[spare topaz]

...this isnt a zero sum game - there's a version of all this where both sides can be reasonably satisfied with the outcome...

[fading cradle]

it is the general sentiment

[teal zodiac]

i honest think it was just a bad choice of words, maybe

[rancid mauve]

man, you learn that the most idiotic comments will be posted on videos

[warped venture]

Gotcha. Wording was a bit confusing so just wanted to clear that up ^^

[rancid mauve]

for some context, a recent video by Abroad in Japan, he talked about the negative comments he was getting on his earlier videos and how they were a massive drag on him, even though he knew many of them are not made in good faith.

[dusky grove]

I mean, heres the thing. If one side pisses off the other enough, both lose.

If consumers piss off devs enough, we eventually get few to no games to play, or theyll be buggy or predatory cash grabs in order to make sure they still make profit.

If devs piss off consumers, then nobody buys the games.

Which is why the sentiment of many MANY people in the comments framing this as Devs VS players is so self destructive

[ripe minnow]

most of the SKG vidoes in the Last 24 hours have increased thanks to the drama and people with even the lowest sub counts are doing videos

[versed geyser]

I can attest to this

[dusky grove]

Turning this into a he said she said drama fight is so stupid

[round bolt]

I'm skeptical of pissed off devs leading to no games

[fading cradle]

A comment that explains the point: "I'm always for consumer rights. Idc if it f up devs and companies in the process. Why should I care? Do they ever care about the consumers?"

[dusky grove]

Not immediately, but its a possibility in the future

[versed geyser]

Another truth

[round bolt]

If Devs wanting to make ABC games feel its too hard or no longer worth it, they may not do so. But devs wanting to make other kinds of games would be unbothered

[teal zodiac]

funny how things are

[dusky grove]

That is the most out of touch thing to say. If they didn't care, they wouldnt be patching games or releasing updates

Some people are just... how...

[versed geyser]

That's inflammatory... I won't even engage with comments like that

[idle hill]

It's amazing
Here I am, someone who plays video games, is an artist, and aspires to develop games
Not seeing a damn thing about consumers hating developers - instead, hating corporate decisions that harm consumers (microtransactions be damned)
Clients showing support for their artists
And bro comes in with the "customers hate you, actually" sentiment

[dusky grove]

This reminds me of what mortdog had to deal with a few months ago

[fading cradle]

Well, if "The Crew" is an example, consumers are totally pissed right now

[versed geyser]

Yes, and that's okay. But reading their frustrations as policy proposals is ignorant

[teal zodiac]

im honeslty getting kinda tired of the main and most absurdly repeated example being The Crew

[versed geyser]

THIS

[fading cradle]

and why is that?

it's the easiest example to draw upon ngl that pissed off gamers

[dusky grove]

I think the general sentiment has been mistargetted.

The hate should be directed at the higher ups of these corporations for focussing on profits, not the devs just doing their jobs and trying to make something good.

That doesn't mean, however, that the devs should work for free to appease consumers.

[ripe minnow]

it really depends who, where they're located at, and age; some people can understand and empathize and some people haven't had enough life experience or haven't been taught to empathize

[fading cradle]

One more comment I read though not as plain inflammatory:

"Im not a software engineer, but engineer none the less. There has been so much regulation in my field in the past 20 years that I wouldn't even know where to start. Part of the regulations felt detrimental, and part extremely inconvenient, and yet industry adapted - the cost of extra work or solutions in design fell on the end product.

Now, those are industry standards and taking them into account is just part of the job description. The result is safer and over life time cheaper products.

So many devs have been shouting 'but the architecture! The middlewear! The licenses! ' and what not. Every time you ask them if it's impossible to avoid those issues, there is no answer or another point brought up.

Suck it up and adapt"

[versed geyser]

Yup. No one brings up the fact it could lead to sweeping changes in preserving games as art like we do with film etc. Nor other games' examples like City of Heroes, Warcraft classic (pre-Classic WoW), Dark Age of Camelot... and so on. The Sims too.

[fading cradle]

it's already embedded in the payment though

[dusky grove]

There are 3 parties involved in games. The devs who make it, the players that buy it, and the people who actually own the game files (corpos in the case of most games)

[versed geyser]

Thank you. This is a PUBLISHER issue. They were the first domino and smaller studios see it as industry standard.

[fading cradle]

because there are actually, ever since PirateSoftware did his thing.

[dusky grove]

Explain

[idle hill]

How about this
We let developers make their games
They're only required to clearly state whether you're buying a license for a live-service game, or buying the game itself as if it were on a CD
Modding and such is up to the developers, making it easy to work with or not
Developers can choose to give an API for hosting servers, or not

All consumers have to do is READ THE TEXT THAT IS PUT IN FRONT OF THEM like they HAVEN'T BEEN with the Terms of Service and EULA agreements

[fading cradle]

"That doesn't mean, however, that the devs should work for free to appease consumers."

I mean they are technically paid through sales. If not, they could increase prices

[dusky grove]

You know damn well gamers cant read

[rough maple]

They don't seem to comprehend that if a house collapsea, it kills everyone inside.
If a game does, it kills just the company. nobody dies.

[idle hill]

And herein lies the problem

[versed geyser]

They don't though, and they shouldn't. Gamers didn't have this in the 90s to the extent they do now beyond "pls don't shareware our game ty"

[fading cradle]

it's not a "gamer thing". Many companies intentionally hide some shitty terms within EULA to exploit users, since nobody likes to read 100 pages of legalese

[teal zodiac]

ye, the argument could be SO MUCH BETTER thn just inflammatory. anyway im kinda tired, all i wanted was for the secret world government to destroy League of Legends but no one is on my side...

[versed geyser]

If a game dies, the company's dead OR they've chosen to close it down.

[fading cradle]

or if there are too few users to begin with

[versed geyser]

This is sadly also true.

[idle hill]

Because gamers can't read, they complain when their license expires. Then the complaints are brought to court or in some initiative, and people say "we do this already, actually. Did you read the agreement you were given at the point of sale?"
It's people complaining just to complain

[versed geyser]

Yes, and if there are, there's nothing wrong with a 10 player pop's MMO server.

[rough maple]

Yeah, sorry, I was actually in the process of rewording it as simply "nobody dies", but you beat me to it. lol

Typing on phone sucks.

[versed geyser]

That's very anticonsumer of you to state imo.

[fading cradle]

We all are guilty of this. We make our social accounts, did we ever read the EULA? If you did, I'm proud of you.

[idle hill]

I am a consumer.

[ripe minnow]

on this Discord if you're on mobile you get behind

[spare topaz]

god i hate how weirdly restrictive EULAs are in so many places - that is one document i would love to see actually challenged in court. A lot of stupid things have been incorporated into EULAs in the past

[fading cradle]

We install apps, do you ever read EULA? 30 mins before you install? Wish I have more time in my hands

[versed geyser]

Do you read every ToS served to you? Did you read your device's ToS you're typing on now? What about Discord's ToS or the operating system's ToS?

[idle hill]

I did, actually, yes.

[teal zodiac]

im gonna start snailing those who are late. Be faster, be better

[fading cradle]

Yep. There's a reason why Louis Rossmann calls it EULA roofies

[versed geyser]

Huge massive colossal time-warping doubt detected. If you didn't that's okay, it doesn't mean I'm right or you're wrong. But saying you did when you (likely) didn't is disingenuous.

[ripe minnow]

The EULA for Grand theft auto V in steam is just a link to their site to read the EULA

[terse pelican]

Just use Text-To-Speech and listen to the EULA

[fading cradle]

then you get bored since u don't understand it anyway haha

[ripe minnow]

People listening to EULA audio books
https://tenor.com/view/wait-what-wait-a-minute-confused-christian-bale-huh-gif-16327705

[terse pelican]

At least then you can multitask

[dusky grove]

True. But as it is worded that games should have an EOL build available, they then stop gaining profit through sales unless they sell the EOL build indefinitely.

However, taking cues from physical media, that isnt whats going to happen. Trading cards arent in print all the time, music records stop being made. Its why these things eventually get so expensive, they're rare. And to the people who ACTUALLY made those rare collectors items? They get squat. You don't see the artist raking in the millions from that ultra rare charizard.

The same thing will happen to EOL builds, but worse. They are put up somewhere for download, someone buys it once and reuploads it for free somewhere to pirate. Most people get the free pirated version because who's going to enforce it?

EOL means no support, including the enforcement of anti-piracy measures that arent inherently in the code, and those can be broken over time

[versed geyser]

Another huge issue. Consumers don't have the legal comprehension to agree to terms despite them a lot of time. Most of the time.

[teal zodiac]

Sometimes EULAs are so convoluted that I might as well wait for VaatiVidya to make a video explaining it

[idle hill]

Oh, bugger off. Yes, I read the TOS, I don't need to hand you videos on a silver platter of me reading the terms of service, which you will likely say I made with AI. Just because you don't read the TOS doesn't mean I don't either.

[dusky grove]

Honestly the only way to make sure gamers read the eula is to make it an unskippable cutscene, and everyone hates unskippable cutscenes

[spare topaz]

100% agreed on this. EULAs as a template should be clear, concise, and using terms normally used by the public or - where not possible - a clear explanation of the terms should be included

[fading cradle]

Isn't it just a final build specifically made for consumers where they can maintain from the end of support? E.g. capabilities for maintaining servers, etc.

[teal zodiac]

i mean, in all seriousness, not reading/understanding ToS and EULA is not a problem on just this industry, its a very general thing

[fading cradle]

I mean, if DOOM did it

[fading cradle]

this!

[versed geyser]

It's my opinion that I don't believe you've read every ToS nor understood them sufficiently enough for every service, hardware or software, you've ever engaged with.

Hell even publishers don't expect you to.

[rancid mauve]

South Park had an entire episode about EULAs...

[ionic sleet]

Humancentipad

[teal zodiac]

ooooh that one

gross

[terse pelican]

People will either walk away for that, or make a mod to skip it.

[versed geyser]

Did what

[ionic sleet]

yea read the eula or get your butt sown to another persons mouth. very simple thing to do

[teal zodiac]

leave it to speedrunners, they always find a way

[rancid mauve]

Im just imagining the star wars text crawl with a EULA being read while scrolling up

[spare topaz]

the way that doom did it was one not everyone can take; they effectively open sourced it - easyy for a big company to do, catastrophic for an indie

[fading cradle]

I mean, what's the problem? It's EoL anyway

[versed geyser]

Counterpoint: should it be the industry standard with so much software these days? That was fine in the mid 90s but today, virtually EVERY piece of software that's not OSL does this.

[versed geyser]

I'm literally asking what Doom did, I didn't catch your last message

[spare topaz]

Doom (1993) was put under an open source licence - it is free for anyone to use, edit, modify or implement how they see fit

[ripe minnow]

1. Khronos should make a youtube channel just reading EULAs

2. explain the terms and ideas in way that people can understand.

3. make short videos of new EULA's and point to main explanation video for further clarification

4. PROFIT

also i'm sure he is busy so this would be a waste of his time

[dusky grove]

The problem is that this build leads to piracy. EOL means devs wont intervene after that point.

Players maintaining servers and such will happen, yes. But again, the EOL build makes it easier for people to crack these games and make them free, essentially stealing from the devs who will no longer be able to profit from their work.

[idle hill]

I've seen so many people make open sourcing not as big a deal as it is
You're effectively putting raw code out on the internet, which other people can use as-is for their own projects, without credits even if you ask them to

[versed geyser]

Ah. Yes. In fact iD released it as shareware initially, then as a product (NOT service) with service-like operability. It's never reached EoL by DESIGN.

[fading cradle]

I mean if it's not for sale, then it's not a problem

[wanton elm]

That sounds like very boring work for Khronos...

[teal zodiac]

for the 5 people on the internet that actually seek to fully understand things

[ionic sleet]

whats actually a better thing is for someone to create a Guide for every section. not everyone can understand legaleze.

Section 1.b - You can't do X or you face consequences

[ripe minnow]

exactly

[dusky grove]

EOL builds should be the Dev's choice. It's literally going "Here have my work for free."

[ionic sleet]

since most Eulas are 70% the same

[wanton elm]

Is that what Khronos wants? 🤣

[rancid mauve]

its called "boilerplate language"

[wanton elm]

Doesn't strike me as someone needing busy work

[ripe minnow]

no idea ask him if he streams today with thor

[versed geyser]

Not if you've exchanged past the point of sale. The consumer has every right to want to preserve art.

[spare topaz]

yes, but ID software had the benefit of being a relatively large company at the time when they made this decision. Dont get me wrong - id love for more games to go this route - but this should be seen as "a" route, not "the" route for devs. I for one am fine with studios like Ludeon still making residuals on rimworld, for example

[idle hill]

Admittedly, I've never watched Khronos - I just know he helps Thor with law stuff

maybe I should start watching him since he's... right there... in the members list

[versed geyser]

iD had 10 employees then

[fading cradle]

it's just minimal work though. You had the base game, just modify things that link to current servers, remove it and make it placeholders. The consumers will then have to deal with setting it up

[versed geyser]

Less I think

[fading cradle]

If you're not selling it, then it's not a problem.

[wanton elm]

That sounds like a lot of work?

[tribal nest]

I do also remember that EULA isn’t actually an enforceable document in the EU, I believe since you are pretty much forced to agree to it because you only get it after buying the product

[wanton elm]

With what amounts to zero return for time invested

[spare topaz]

but they also sold over 3 million copies - im not disagreeing with you, im just saying that they should be one option to emulate, not the only option to emulate

[dusky grove]

If we enforce a mandatory EOL build, you are making it so that once a game dies it is essentially free to pirate.

The only reason EOL builds exist is because of Dev generosity, which is normal.

Imagine if a painter gave everyone in town a painting for free. Thats insanely generous, yes, but now FORCE said painter to do it without pay and you are seen as barbaric

[idle hill]

This is a problem I have with many ToS and EULA. You buy product, and have to agree to their documents after the point of sale.

[versed geyser]

This is doable depending on the level of API integration within the game. It's a cancerous operation.

[paper wasp]

That is not the same thing

[teal zodiac]

unless its "the law"!!! and they are forced to do so. Kinda simple actually ⛄

[fading cradle]

You're right. But remember, the push is for consumer rights. Just like I said that it could be opposite of dev rights

[dusky grove]

I'm not saying work as in "the time spent making the EOL build". I'm saying work as in "The entire time spent developing the game, from pre-launch to death"

[ionic sleet]

so I thought about it. On how the best way to explain things to people in the most simplest terms.

Games these days is like a table filled with jenga towers. Each block in every tower is connected to another block of another tower via strings.

You just cant simply do X without it affecting Y and Z

[fading cradle]

same argument applies, you no longer selling it so...

[round bolt]

That analogy would make sense if you could only rent the paintings before they stopped painting for good

[versed geyser]

That's to be expected at EoL. Nothing at EoL brings in revenue, nor games without these service agreements BEFORE EoL.

[dusky grove]

It will be. Because an EOL build can be downloaded, and cracked, and pirated eventually

[spare topaz]

a regulation that benefits one side only at the exclusive expense of another is not good regulation. The only version of this that will be beneficial in the long run is if both devs and consumers feel represented in its protections and provisions

[ionic sleet]

If a game has an expiration date listed I wouldn't want to play it. who here said that? cause i agree

[round bolt]

if the concern is pirating after EOL state is released....the whole point of ending a game thats online is its no longer profitable to maintain

[versed geyser]

The hope is that it will be balanced. There are willing maintainers wanting to adopt the services for no cost, while collaborating with the devs. Some even offer to buy that privilege (HyTale is a recent case)

[ripe minnow]

i already avoid live service games date or not

[round bolt]

so.....you decided it already made the money it would

therefore ended the game

[fading cradle]

nobody cares at this point. The consumers are trying to fight back against these sudden shutdowns, making the financial investment to buy the game disappeared in thin air

[teal zodiac]

and prs, and marketing, angels, and etc etc. There is so much more involved thn just consumers and devs

[idle hill]

I made this kind of analogy using people asking for higher wages in a talk w/ someone irl
Instead of cracking down on companies for raising prices, the govs choose to increase the wages. The companies raise prices, the problem becomes worse, the govs increase wages again.
You gotta hit the weak point instead of hitting the regenerating limb

[spare topaz]

absolutist behaviour gets nothing done, ever. Unless you are willing to see the middle ground, you will never get the end result you are wanting

[ionic sleet]

Hydra conundrum

[versed geyser]

Realistically there are four parties at most. Studio devs, publishers, 3rd party middleware vendors, and the consumers.

[wanton elm]

In fact, the lack of foresight to come to a negotiating table is why we are in this situation in the first place

[paper wasp]

Not when you comparing it to paintings

[fading cradle]

Anyways, thanks for the chit-chat guys. Planning to write an article about both sides of the initiative for the blog.

I would like to ask though. What questions do you want to have to the supporters of the other side? While I kinda support the initiative, I am also new to why they fight so I'm not good at explaining talking points. 🙂

[dusky grove]

However, by enforcing EOL builds, and in turn the piracy of the game after shut down, it creates a knock on effect.

For example, a game launches and its good. The most effective way for the consumer to be able play this game is to NOT buy it and wait for it to shut down cuz of profit. Then, the mandatory EOL kicks in, which leads to piracy. Congrats, you got your game for free at the cost of screwing the devs

[versed geyser]

The negotiating table is established after the signature goal is met. That's common, expected, and sensible.

[idle hill]

Exactly. Instead of focusing on corporate's shitty practices, the blame is shifted to the developers for not implementing a way for players to play the games they licensed after services shut down.
It doesn't change the fact that consumers don't read TOS, whether it's illegible or presented after the point of sale.

[round bolt]

"The most effective way for the consumer to be able play this game is to NOT buy it and wait for it to shut down cuz of profit"

Meanwhile folks cant stop preordering. I just dont trust consumers to grasp and act on something in that way

[teal zodiac]

inside publishers for example you have a myriad of parts. Studio devs, unless very indie, are also made by segments. PMs for example. What im saying is that there is much more involved in any production and market thn just devs and consumers

[dusky grove]

This isn't even mentioning faster methods like idk... causing scandals to shut down the studio, DDOS attacks, etc etc

[paper wasp]

Then those people need to get a job 🙄

[ripe minnow]

so what happens when a video game ends, the devs or publisher lets end users / players hey you can play this forever etc

Then in a year or 10 later the devs or publisher etc say hey we're going to remake this; would that run into copyright law and clash with what ever new game preservation law is put in place in the EU?

[versed geyser]

Insofar as this works, there would be one representative from each of the four parties I listed.

[dusky grove]

I need to charge my phone, i'm bowing out for now

[round bolt]

I would say that the company is still around to make the sequel, therefore they still hold the copyright to the IP

[teal zodiac]

Imagine something like "im not gonna buy the game bcs as soon as the project fails im gonna get it anyway"

[teal zodiac]

ye, at least, thats my point

[idle hill]

No, not really
It's the same developer/publisher who owns the rights to the game, the player simply has the right to play the game.

[versed geyser]

It wouldn't because once they turn over the game, it's public domain as far as operability goes.

[round bolt]

I wouldnt think making an EOL plan is inherently giving up IP ownership

unless the studio itself dissolves ownership

by choice

just making a version of the game to be left as is

[ripe minnow]

if the new game preservation law allows that as an option and some publishers may not agree with it etc really up in the air in threoy i think

[celest storm]

Hi guys I've been told to send my message here, I am

Currently, I have no idea what to feel about Thor rn, I've just read about stuff against him, and I hate that I get swayed with what they're saying so easily. And honestly, I just need people to explain this properly to me...

[versed geyser]

It's not. Activision can still sue anyone making money off their ideas - service agreement or not.

[idle hill]

It doesn't, but it DOES open up copyright/security issues if the end user decides to monetize the servers/resell the game after services expire.

[ionic sleet]

ignore everything you have heard about both sides so far

[round bolt]

Yeah.

[fading cradle]

hahaha it's been a long discussion

[round bolt]

Thats where DMCA claims come in

[fluid dome]

Morning

[idle hill]

But who's gonna file the claim if there is no one behind the game?
Sure the company/publisher would send their lawyers IF they were still running, but what if the company/publisher shut down and thus had to shut down the game?
Who files the claim then?

[round bolt]

If a company dissolved and much later someone else is selling it....why would it be a problem in the first place then?

[ionic sleet]

simpler question regarding IP to ask:

"would you want someone to take your child away?"

[round bolt]

if they dont even exist

[celest storm]

I've had really bad history with all these celebrity dramas... cuz I've experienced enjoying someone's content, looking up to them, and making them my role model, and later find out that a lot of people think they're terrible

[idle hill]

Tell me about it

[fading cradle]

Don't put them on a very high pedestal, you'll be disappointed

[teal zodiac]

Sure! Is there anything specific that you want to talk about or start with?
Also, two things, first is that obviously no one here speaks for Thor (just to avoid "he said she said"), and second is that a lot of people here have different views and opinions so depending on who is present you might have different arguments and ideas, which is ofc natural on a community

[fading cradle]

Before I go, I would like to ask though. What questions do you want to have to the supporters of SKG? While I kinda support the initiative, I am also new to why they fight so I'm not good at explaining talking points. 🙂

I'll write an article about the issue for my blog

[ionic sleet]

I support the feeling. the initiative just lacked the required data about this

you cant gloss over this

[teal zodiac]

i assume that i love drama, with a passion!! i really enjoy those good thumbnails with devil horns and fire. But ye, the real good ones tend to be very rare

[celest storm]

I'm probably just confused as what to do with information that I genuinely regret looking up

[quasi viper]

imagine running a lemonade stand and someone told you, you can't close it because you have a customer base of 20 people who would be very upset that you closed it, and someone said you had to either sell it for someone to manage it better, or you had to automate it for more cost than you can handle and make it a self serving stand

[teal zodiac]

feel free to elaborate 🦉

[fluid dome]

At that point I'd just get my own lemonade LMAO

[idle hill]

Basically SKG

[quasi viper]

that's basically the whole drama point of skg

[fading cradle]

it isn't the correct argument though.

If you want to close it, you have to give the equipment to the customer base for them to use. You don't have to maintain it though.

[idle hill]

Thanks for saying the same thing they just did

[ionic sleet]

but i designed the new juice extractor. why do i need to give it up?

[earnest spire]

yeah the equipment is like the entire business

[fading cradle]

The problem is, digital goods are treated differently

Than physical counterparts

[quasi viper]

alright how about this let's say that all the equipment you have is a licensed equipment, you are given the rights to use it, but not the rights to give it away then what

[celest storm]

well first I've stumpled upon a video by penguinz that talked about thor, he sounded very against him. so I looked it up and there was apparently talk about how he's a "bad" person. And it just left me confused as to what to feel cuz as I've said, I looked up to the guy and it kinda broke my image of him, but at the same time I still dont wanna see him as a bad person

[fading cradle]

Hmmm that might be one question

[blissful fern]

spongebob

[quasi viper]

games aren't just normally made through purely themsevles there is a lot of other things going on you might not ever know like car brands, sports gear all sorts of stuff

[fading cradle]

it's because of what PS said to the founder of the movement

[fluid dome]

Why should the customer need the equipment to make lemonade when they can just buy their own lemonade from a supplier

[ionic sleet]

all the youtube videos combine all the drama about a person and mixes it up. watch thors videos.

the others are just content farming

[quasi viper]

i think thor is right, but not for the reasons he says but i'm not going tyo go from the roof tops and get mad about it

[arctic needle]

Don't let anyone else tell you how to feel about a person

[idle hill]

You're conflicted because one large creator said something negative about the other, I understand.
You can choose to leave the critical thinking to Critikal, or you can dive into the content itself and ask yourself, is what Critikal is saying true? Or is he just spouting a bunch of stuff because he didn't get the full picture?

[fading cradle]

Is this the correct question:

1. If the game use licensed equipment where they are only given the rights to use it, what's the plan for devs to handle EoL?

[teal zodiac]

when you say "against him (thor)" was it about the person or about the argument? bcs ive seen some (not just this case) that starts arguing on the idea and end up attacking the person and its...not a good way to debate

[ionic sleet]

Devs would have to rip out anything that is licensed. but that itself can be a games entire identity

[fluid dome]

It's not the job of the devs to decide what EoL is for the project they're making, that's down to management

[ionic sleet]

take marvel snap

[quasi viper]

i mean imagine kingdom hearts made a mmo you really think disney would cough up those rights and let square give it away

[fading cradle]

I see, but is this the correct wording of the question?

[idle hill]

They shut down. Simple as. I posted about this earlier. Please read.

[fading cradle]

Or do I wrote it wrongly?

[fading cradle]

I see

[versed geyser]

Following their logic, presumably because you have it to them and have no longer any use for it

[celest storm]

We'll I'm not actually starting a debate, I'm just looking for help with managing what I feel I think

[celest storm]

This will probably be a good start

Thanks

[ionic sleet]

I did forget that some game studios heavily modify aspects of a game engine for their own uses

which is licensed to them

[quasi viper]

did you just outsource your own opinion based on other people

[versed geyser]

That's not legislation, that's the opinion of EU citizens. It's their proposal pending negotiations

[teal zodiac]

No no, not at all, its just for me to understand what you are passing through. My honest take is that sometimes when people need to launch videos really fast to not lose momentum and specially when the whole argument is very chaotic people sometimes can be more emotional, which is fine. Not linking something that the person said during a period of time or about certain topic doesnt mean you need to ignore everything else you liked about the person, its just on that point, on that moment, and many times those moments pass

[idle hill]

Well, it's the same reason people go to therapy. They have feelings they don't understand or don't want to be feeling, so they go to someone else to help them understand those feelings and the reasons behind them.

[teal zodiac]

maybe im very off target here, but this is what i understood

[quasi viper]

i watch asmondgold does that mean i agree with him? hell no lmao you can watch and see things you, you don't have to agree with their takes

[celest storm]

Yea, that was helpful thank you

[fluid dome]

Here's a question I want you to ask yourself.

Would you question the rocket scientist if he explained to you why travelling to the sun is a bad idea or would you freely accept the arguments of the common man who holds no tested knowledge on the subject?

[idle hill]

Oops, wording. Sorry mods

[idle hill]

To be fair, it sounds really cool to just travel into the sun. We should try that, just once.

[quasi viper]

i mean you should always question everyone and try to understand their way of thinking you shouldn't dismiss anything just because they are or aren't educated or have a title to match

[ionic sleet]

would you trust dr. Fauchi or a internet rando about that subject?

[warm trench]

Neither - maybe another doctor

[idle hill]

I'll take another doctor, thanks

[quasi viper]

the one thing you should never do is just take a single point in a argument

[celest storm]

Well I shouldn't have taken penguinz words to seriously yet

[idle hill]

Gather all perspectives and evidence, and form an opinion accordingly

[high ember]

i think we could travel to the sun if we did it at night while it's asleep

[idle hill]

See he gets what I mean

[wanton elm]

This is impractical. "All" is not a good word choice

[ionic sleet]

why wait just unplug it?

Sun lamp conspiracy

[idle hill]

all important* perspectives
there's a bunch of people out there that just spew insults or repeat the same thing X person did

[round bolt]

Remember that Appeal to Authority exists

[celest storm]

Well after all this, I think I know what to do now. Thank you guys! This was really enlightening...

[fluid dome]

My feeling of this is that I find it difficult to trust the opinions of people who hold no prior experience of how the industry works

[quasi viper]

it actually is a lot deeper than that, it's because all humans brains all have a different chemical makeup

[fading cradle]

Here's the thing though, consumers only care about the consumer side of things.

[fluid dome]

I'm not going to value the expert opinion of a Michelin star chef on how best to prepare a steak less than someone who can't cook a steak anyway

[ripe minnow]

the problem with asmon, mutahar, and charli etc is they'll attack your arguments and bring up nothing new or counter points, they just stir the drama pot to frotehr up viewer.

other people will pile on top of that and make snarky videos etc and then to find constructive points of view you'll have to dig for lower view count content that might argue both sides

[quasi viper]

this is basic politics 101 both sides exaggerate their problems and would compromise it's just lately there hasn't really been any compromise

[fluid dome]

Correct!

[earnest spire]

asmon didnt really attack any arguement in this

[topaz moth]

why would consumer care about other things that are not consumer side?

[wanton elm]

Because a system like we have does not survive without empathy

[terse pelican]

If there's no other side, how will the consumer get anything?

[fluid dome]

Answer

They wouldn't

[ripe minnow]

i haven't seen his latest video because i just avoid his content altogether lately but if he brings anything good let me know

[fading cradle]

I mean it's better than bullying (I won't tell)

[fluid dome]

Because consumers only care about getting the end product, they're not interested in the process to get the product.

[terse pelican]

and people REALLY need to stop looking at it like it's a ''Us Vs Them'' thing, and more of a Ecosystem

[quasi viper]

while it's true a lot of companies are greedy shits, some of the consumer ideals just aren't practical

[teal zodiac]

i mean, from the very little that ive seen from Zack he actually proposes drama as his content, iirc the name of the stream sometimes is "Big Drama, Big Day, Drama Review" or something. I know its a weird take but when someone doesnt truly position themself as the solver or mediator or truth sayer, it pends to be fine on my book

[earnest spire]

he just listen to both sides and understand opinions and people views on pirate

[fluid dome]

I don't need to know the process of how Dyson makes their vacuum cleaners, I just need to know I can get one

[topaz moth]

and that you dont need an online subscription to run dyson when their servers go down

[wanton elm]

Hah yeah that's fair

[quasi viper]

zack been farming since johnny depp

[teal zodiac]

"i'm gonna tell you the whole truth" != "guys, lets watch this drama together and i will comment on top of it"
Not saying this is good, just saying its different on my pov

[versed geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/goodbye-chat-gundam-witch-from-mercury-mobile-suit-gundam-gif-15961790800979131210

[frozen sonnet]

Bye

[teal zodiac]

man the shadow quality on that gundam, what is that from??

[round bolt]

I wish they made a PvE gundam game

that isnt gunpla

and isnt some class based nonsense

[terse pelican]

Closest to that I can think of is Armored Core, but that's not close

[round bolt]

Yeah its not

[versed geyser]

I think it's seed or Thunderbolt or 00?

[round bolt]

Ac6 is good though

[ripe minnow]

yeah still not good in my opinion and just keep the arguments revolving in circles

[teal zodiac]

Xenoblade Chronicles X 🔥
We have mechas mixed with politics

[ripe minnow]

the gundam is Witch from mercury i think

[terse pelican]

I need to get Xenoblade Cronicles X

[round bolt]

Ehhhhh

[versed geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/gundam-hathaway's-flash-hathaway-noa-gigi-messer-gif-18291969375119656051

[toxic rampart]

Aeriel rebuild

[teal zodiac]

yes you do, everyone does

its one of my all times fav games

[fluid dome]

I tried AC6 but I got bodied by the furnace and before that balteus

[terse pelican]

I have Xenoblade Cronicles 3 on Switch

need to play through it still

[round bolt]

Balteus was a big fence to most folks

Ended up using a tank build with 2 heavy cannons and 2 shoulder cannons

hes weirdly just a DPS race

Id like for them to have some kind of Ac6 DLC one day

[fluid dome]

I wanna see them make a Kings Field game

Bring back all their IPs they had before souls

[opaque raven]

Love it!!

[versed geyser]

by the way Gundam enjoyers: Hathaway's Flash Part 2 is slated to release this year or early 2026

[versed geyser]

oh it is WFM?

[ripe minnow]

I really love this clip from Thunderbolt because it has Jazz but also it's kind of nuts from the Zeon pilot perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BHTtc7iY7A

[fluid dome]

Blood Message looks cool as shit and I'm sad I can't play it

[versed geyser]

God I love Thunderbolt's animation

[ionic sleet]

have you played the dynasty warriors gundam games?

[versed geyser]

you like jazz?

https://youtu.be/KU9E1WQKpaI

[round bolt]

No, but arent those super old?

[ionic sleet]

2014

[versed geyser]

SKG #stopkillinggundam

[fluid dome]

Almost done with the Overture DLC in Lies of P NG+

[ionic sleet]

it holds up very well for a pve gundam game despite the age

[round bolt]

it appears they arent for PC

just console

Old consoles

[opaque raven]

Excel truly is the cornerstone of the world's economy

[ionic sleet]

sadly yes. goes up to 00 stuff not movie though

but i had so much fun. wing gundam, epyon, kyrios all had the transformation modes as well

[versed geyser]

any Crossbone?

[fluid dome]

My experience with Lies of P might honestly get me to try Mortal Shell again

[round bolt]

basically Id like a game thats build like warframe is

but for gundam

[ionic sleet]

https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors_Gundam_Reborn#Featured_Mobile_Suits_and_Mobile_Armors list of gundams for the 4th game

oh nice i only played 3 but 4 has the Qant

yup it has crossbone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA1UJOkkEXc for a 2012-14 game it looks dated but fun

[tribal nest]

So I just found out something absolutely horrifying. Do you guys remember Toxoplasma Gondii, the cat parasite that Thor talked about yesterday that can rewire a mouse’s brain so it isn’t scared of cats, and decreases fertility in humans and can even cause suicidal tendencies?

Yeah, apparently at least 1/3 of all people in the world are infected with it…

[teal zodiac]

dogs would never do this to you

[abstract crypt]

hey I was told that I could discuss the latest

uhh

"drama" I guess

honestly this all couldve been avoided if pirate was more civil abt stuff

he apparently said every word in the book when he was talking about it

[ionic sleet]

lol civil? you could say the same about the mob

[terse pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/touching-grass-touch-gif-21219969

[ionic sleet]

freshly cut i presume.

[terse pelican]

''Let's only blame one person and not the dozen that come in spewing random bs or calling for people do the unspeakable.''

[ionic sleet]

"Join us now!" "no" "Burn him alive"

[terse pelican]

-Insert Opinion- . I disagree . -Gets called Moustache Man from WW2-

[ionic sleet]

But its a free win so why not? /s

[fringe crest]

i honestly might just back off for a while. i love thor, i really do. as a human being, and as a creator. but i do have to say the SKG stuff is kinda rubbing me the wrong way a bit. i could give two shits about roaching a raid and all of that other stuff, doesnt mean anything to me, but idk. ive been following thor now for like 3 years. i do feel like thor is dodging any kind of accountability in the possibility that he did indeed misrepresent the movement. i just dont think thor realizes how much influence he truly has. his words means things. and while i do not wish for thor to ever say or do something that misrepresent himself or who he is, i dont think admitting your wrong every once in a while is a bad thing either.

[ionic sleet]

you cant misrepresent a movement that the creator itself misrepresent though.

he was emotional and apologized for that, but his logic is not wrong.

[terse pelican]

Blame Thor, Misrepresent what he said, Claim he never takes accountability. - Reddit 2025

[golden mirage]

If someone can read the official documentation for an initiative and get the completely wrong opinion of the movement, then the initiative is badly worded.

[ionic sleet]

^ especially someone in the same industry

I agree with the sentiment of skg

but you cant just go in with wishful thinking

[terse pelican]

So do pretty much everyone, But the iniative 'as written' and 'interpited' is what people disagree with

[tribal canyon]

wishful thinking with real world implications that seem to just get brushed aside when talked about

[fringe crest]

but thats the thing, the initiative is a STARTING POINT. every tarting points starts with wishful thinking

[abstract crypt]

okay, I'm sorry

[golden mirage]

Also, the things Thor points out in his videos, that people in the movement say won't happen and point to the website that says thats not what the movement is about, are the things Ross has been saying in interviews are goals for the initiative. So...hard to say Thor is wrong.

[fringe crest]

im not saying thor is wrong

im just saying hes not right either

[abstract crypt]

ya'll probably had enough of angry ross scott fans (myself included) just causing a shstorm in here

[fringe crest]

if people can talk about it with civil discourse, i dont see the issue, its the drama starters that cause issues

[dusky grove]

surprisingly a good number have been civil, though the debates do last quite long

[tribal canyon]

i get a feeling the SKG stuff is getting morpehd into the general "i hate anybody better off than me" you see more and more of these day

[terse pelican]

Let's be clear, You can be a fan of Ross, And you can be here without the Angry attitude, Just as long as we're all civil

[fringe crest]

so is the plight of man

exactly

differing opinions do not mean we cannot discuss things lol

[rancid mauve]

there is a lot of "I need someone to be angry at" energy from the crowd for sure

[terse pelican]

If things start to get heated, Mods will slap ANY of us,

[tribal canyon]

i must add not be ross, but by everybody else

[dusky grove]

But from my understanding of it all on the emotional side. Thor was in the wrong for HOW he worded his concerns 10 months ago, then was retaliated on recently by ross and the subsequent mob. Apologies were issued but their stances remain firm in their beliefs on both sides.

And now both angry mobs are mad because neither side wants to back down. Which kinda puts everyone in a bad light when we should we working together in all this

[fringe crest]

i like charlie, ross and thor, so seeing all the drama reignited and then added on too has just not felt good as a fan of all three lol

[dusky grove]

But right now, since everyone's been telling thor he apologized wrong, he went full cactus mode and became prickly to any contact regarding the matter

[terse pelican]

I feel that Charlie and Other Tubers, only jumped on the drama train cause it was the 'perfect' time, But that's just my Tinfoil hat opinion

[golden mirage]

Thats what the internet does.

[fringe crest]

yeah but charlie doesnt do that. doesnt really involve himself in drama unless hes invested invested

which is why it feels bad to see

[terse pelican]

I don't watch Charlie so I don't know much about his content, But why this late though, why not earlier when it was 'fresh' so to speak?

[soft root]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V22f_AMdgezQ9469VoCyQuEprHbtjeTYRViKxIbdu6k/edit?usp=sharing Gonna share these in here as well. Shia Hulud Lyrics

[dusky grove]

nice

[fringe crest]

i think charlie just became recently introduced to the movement and was probably bhind oon info

[dusky grove]

I think most people were

[abstract crypt]

honeslty I've stopped caring about this drama you people are chill ash

[serene wave]

Has Charlie even talked about SKG before this week? My algo doesn't really pop up his vids much, though I'm pretty sure I'm subbed

[dusky grove]

not to my knowledge

[fringe crest]

and im not trying to defend him, i jut watch both their content pretty frequently at work so

[abstract crypt]

from what I heard pirate and ross are on good terms now

[dusky grove]

they're on... neutral terms

[abstract crypt]

and the skg movement gained more traction

[fringe crest]

and no thats why i think he recently got introduced to it

[abstract crypt]

which is good

[fluid dome]

Id just like to point out that none of these people said a goddamn word when Nintendo shut down Miiverse, the 3DS E shop or literally any other service or game that existed before The Crew.

The only reason why they're talking about it now is for clout

[dusky grove]

not speaking terms, afaik. Thor doesn't want to give SKG more reach, presumably until it gets the changes he wants which may not happen

[fluid dome]

It's posturing

That's all it ever is

[golden mirage]

I'm not sure "good" is the right word. Thor gave an apology for a personal attack and Ross accepted...I think its kind of wait and see if things improve between them.

[fluid dome]

Charlie and muta absolutely reek of virtue signaling

[fringe crest]

the online space is in a very volitile state now, with this stuff, the ethan drama, th twitch platform imoploding and other internet drama its all going to shit honestly

[ionic sleet]

is ross a Dev of any kind? idk much about him.

[abstract crypt]

what do yall know about ross though?

[abstract crypt]

oh he's the guy that created freeman's mind and civil protection

[terse pelican]

I'm just skeptical about the whole thing from 10 months ago, Cause why was it not brought to Charlies, Mutas, ETC attention back then, Why so late when the iniative is almost over?

[terse pelican]

Don't think that's the same guy? I could be wrong

[ionic sleet]

what are those?

[dusky grove]

While I do agree it's weird that "the crew" was the last straw, I feel like naming these examples is moving the goal post so to speak. It's always been a matter of time til someone said something about this, whatever triggered it specifically didn't matter

[abstract crypt]

when this this drama start

[abstract crypt]

mods bash this guy for being uncultured 🔥

[ionic sleet]

stuff im finding is just "random youtuber"

[abstract crypt]

two popular machinima series during the internet's golden age

[abstract crypt]

that's the same guy tho

[ionic sleet]

okay so no Developer or gaming industry background then?

[dusky grove]

Thor's initial vids were 10 months ago when it was brought to his attention. The question asked is why the drama started now and not back then

[abstract crypt]

I see

now that complicates things

[fringe crest]

i agree. the only way to move forward. is to stop the pointing of fingers. get everyone on at least speaking terms, and have the larger conversation of how do we fix this

[ionic sleet]

drama did start back then but surged up cause the initiative is ending

[soft root]

Because it has officially ended and didn't get anywhere, that's why.

[abstract crypt]

this is clearly beyond what reaction commentary channels have told me

[terse pelican]

Yeah, But the 'big name Tubers' were silent back then

[abstract crypt]

so this was ross' attempt to revive his campaign?

[dusky grove]

I don't think one needs to be "in the industry" to start the movement, but one needs someone in the industry to at least be on the team to make informed decisions. Ross spearheading this is fine, but not having a representative on the Devs' side (maybe like 3) is not helping

[serene wave]

Not much, I only know he's the one behind SKG due to the recent stuff, and I heard a little bit about SKG itself from time to time. I can't say I hate the idea, but I also don't know enough to know what kind of snags there would be legally

[dusky grove]

that's what we think

[fringe crest]

to be fair, charlie has been doing shit with BBNO$ and magic and the one piece trading card game and traveling so i just dont think he was aware of it

has been for like a year now so

[abstract crypt]

you should definitely check out freeman's mind

[ionic sleet]

so this is a random youtuber making an initiative about something they have rudimentary knowledge about? and people get mad cause a person with great knowledge gives out information?

[terse pelican]

That's a fair point. Being busy with other stuff and not having time makes sense.

[soft root]

Thor is mostly getting crap because he's one of the few who wasn't afraid to speak up. I respect that about him. He says what he says, and he doesn't appologize. Except when he attacks character, which he did appologize for that aspect of things.

[abstract crypt]

no clue, I've only known him for the stuff I mentioned

[fringe crest]

again not trying to defend him

[late bane]

Start Building Games!!! develop.games

[fringe crest]

have you signed up for your local game jam lol

[abstract crypt]

alright I've climbed down the rabbit hole that I never intended to go into

I'll chicken out now cya

[dusky grove]

People complain about thor being an "Industry plant" when trying to directly affect said industry. Bruh, you walked into a forest and found a tree, why are you complaining

[abstract crypt]

might come back for chat sessions because yall are chill

[dusky grove]

take care john

[abstract crypt]

john isn't my name lol

thanks tho

u 2

[terse pelican]

Yeah, I get that, I also understand that you're telling me what Charlie was doing at that time to explain why he was not aware of the drama

[golden mirage]

Personally, I find the whole "the intiative is ended" things to be really weird. There's nothing stopping the sponsors from trying again, there's no mandated wait time or ban from trying again. It only ends if they chose to give up the fight.

[serene wave]

Well, I know OF Freeman's Mind, just didn't know he was the one who did that, either XD Wasn't really my sort of thing, at least at the time it came out

[soft root]

Thor isn't a plant. He isn't even real

[fringe crest]

i believe in fairness, honor, and integrity of character and word

[abstract crypt]

I don't have much knowledge nor context, I just came here to dunk on pirate with this image then probably get banned cuz of it

[ionic sleet]

I would certainly think that a person that has extensive knowledge on the subject would be a little more trustworthy in that subject etc.

[dusky grove]

respectable

[abstract crypt]

and I captioned it like

"top 10 reasons why skg is bad"

[golden mirage]

You'll have to try harder if you want to get banned.

[terse pelican]

''Came here to dunk on Pirate'' lol

[fringe crest]

im 32 years old and still have no clue as to what that meme references

[dusky grove]

actually it's quite easy to get banned, just be an actual problem

[golden mirage]

Given he literally included that meme in his game.

[abstract crypt]

or see other people dunk on him ig

[terse pelican]

Wrong place for that since it's his discord?

[dusky grove]

there have been some the past few days that criticised him or his stance

[fringe crest]

but it cool here cuz people can speak there mind as long as they do it with tact and dignity and dont immedietly just start spamming bullshit

[abstract crypt]

as I said before my intentions, knowledge and experience on this topic are very surface level

[dusky grove]

hi nelas

[soft root]

Thor is like 6ft, how does one dunk on him?

[ionic sleet]

you know i was browsing LSF randomly and the only person there that kept talking about thor was that guy pushing his parody game

[fringe crest]

a commically large trampoline

[abstract crypt]

because this thing is like "lol it's loss but pirate software style!!!!! please give me gold award!!!!!"

[fringe crest]

and belief in oneself

[hard jackal]

6'2

[terse pelican]

5ft12 Energy.

[dusky grove]

I fully expect some sort of "Pirate software Simulator" troll game to make a round or two in the internet zeitgeist soon

[abstract crypt]

anyways yall are chill I might stop by for something that isn't internet gossip

[rancid mauve]

its sad that people walk around TRYING to make enemies. Its hard enough to even make friends. it must be exhausting to have such an outlook on life.

[abstract crypt]

take care and stay epic my 1337 m8s

[terse pelican]

I'd rather just make everyone my Frenemy.

[hard jackal]

Do that. You are always welcome.

[dusky grove]

Everyone is an aquaintance and that's where they'll be forever

no friends

no enemies

true neutral

[terse pelican]

I'd be Chaotic Neutral on the Alignment board

[fringe crest]

i hate everyone equally. my expectations for humanity are always low, so they can never be not met and i can always be surprised when someone goes above the lowest bar lol

[rancid mauve]

its easy enough to just be neutral till you feel like you can make a better judgement

[dusky grove]

We should just replace humans with ferrets. Someone make a requests to the devs of earth

[fringe crest]

no thanks, i quite like being very resistant to ALOT of disease

they are cute though

[dusky grove]

Speaking of games dying tho, has anyone told Thor about what nintendo did to mario kart world a few days ago

[soft root]

What did they do?

[idle hill]

[idle hill]

What'd they do now?

[golden mirage]

Did nintendo sue mario?

[soft root]

Apparently for online racing they are currently forcing people to do the interum racing from track to track

[dusky grove]

MKW introduced highways, which is a race from 1 track to another. In practice it's a mostly straight line with 1 lap of the destination track.

Players bypassed this by picking random which almost always gave a normal track with its normal laps.

Latest update made it so it's now like a 7/8 chance of the highways

[arctic needle]

Dang Mario is only a plumber, he can't afford a lawsuit

[dusky grove]

and the community is pissed, especially when they were practicing shortcuts on the normal maps

[terse pelican]

I get they want to use those Highway maps, but man, Being forced to almost only play those would suck

[soft root]

I honestly wish there was a classic mode. I enjoy the highway portions of the racing. I think it's cool, but I would like a "classic" mode

[dusky grove]

not to mention some tracks are just worse. There's 1 track that's 5 laps of a circle with a shortcut. But in highway mode you get 1 lap of that circle

you literally play that map for 1/5th of the intended time

[fluid dome]

Nintendo gutting their flagship launch title is deeply funny to me

[dusky grove]

another thing people bring up is that there already IS a dedicated mode to play those highway transition tracks. Knockout race is like 5 of those back to back to back

[terse pelican]

Eurgh, Then the change is even dumber, or do no one play Knockout?

[dusky grove]

people play knockout, it seemed popular. not as popular as the normal lap races but it had its merits as a high stakes thing

[soft root]

Knockout mode is technically longer though

[fluid dome]

Sonic Racing Cross World is looking very appealing to me now

[soft root]

IT's about 6 tracks and it varies more because you hit more of the games environments

[dusky grove]

it also had different strategies since you have to place a certain position to stay in the race or else you're... knocked out.

This lends frontrunning some more power and weakens bagging. While lap tracks are kinda 50/50 on both strats

[dusky grove]

it could be, if you manage to survive. All in all it's a different appeal, which is why it's weird that they also forced something similar to normal races

[terse pelican]

I'ma just stick with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.

[fluid dome]

Has the update just killed online then?

[dusky grove]

and it's honestly a shame, I've been watching the tech and the tracks have some insane shortcuts cuz of the rails and wall riding mechanics, but now you get 1 chance to do them since you only get 1 lap

[dusky grove]

I'll look at twitch tracker for it, gimme a sec

but community outcry is near unanimous, from what I've seen

side note, is twitch tracker like... slow for anyone else?

[fluid dome]

Nintendo could easily take the L and revert the change but they won't bc they don't actually care

[dusky grove]

https://www.metacritic.com/game/mario-kart-world/user-reviews/?platform=nintendo-switch-2

user reviews on metacritic

twitch viewership

[fading cradle]

basically telling PS is NOT an indie dev

[tight bramble]

I want to get my sister a switch 2 but I haven't looked up the backward compatibility, as she has a switch 1 with a bunch of games.

[fluid dome]

Depends what she has got

[fading cradle]

The founder said that he doesn't want to turn it into a "drama issue"

[terse pelican]

IIRC, The Switch 2 is like comparing a PS5 to a PS5 Pro IIRC

[tight bramble]

Ah ok thank you.

[terse pelican]

The founder can say that, but that doesn't stop other people to still turn it into Drama

[fading cradle]

Also yeah, nobody likes corpos. That's why everyone raised their pitchforks because they accuse him of being a pro-corpo and anti-consumer.

[fading cradle]

fair enough

[rough maple]

If he's got some integrity, the bare minimum he could do would be to ban people who behave unhingedly from his spaces.

But my years in the internet landscape taught me that this almost never happens, anywhere.

[tribal canyon]

this is what i was getting at earlier, the movement is turning into "i hate companies/people better off than me" rather than a true desire to preseve games

[dusky grove]

agreed

it's devolved into screaming at strawmen. and I doubt any of the people actually in charge want it to be this way

[fading cradle]

To be fair, the trajectory might have changed had PS didn't talk about the issue like he did (mainly calling Ross a used car salesman, etc)

[fluid dome]

It's also funny when you think about what Ross actually said in the video recently

"I didn't want to do this originally, but now I have no choice"

Bullshit

[dusky grove]

if that trajectory changed because of that, 10 months ago, and they couldn't correct it, it's quite a concerning issue

[fading cradle]

Fair though I'm mostly focusing on the fallout towards PS rn

[dusky grove]

I can see why people dislike thor's attitude. He's the no BS type. He'll say it as it is and that ruffles feathers

he might be wrong, yeah. nobody's right all the time

but he won't bend over backward to people please

like i said before. cactus. it has its pros and cons

[fading cradle]

You don't have to bend over backwards, just be professional

[strong plover]

😆

[rough maple]

To be kinda fair, I believe the most of the people screaming, threatening, and whatever else are located in the US (hence, can't sign it), while the initiative is for the EU.

So... this is turning into something completely pointless, 'cuz while they're here spewing poison, probably quite a number of EU people aren't even aware that this is a thing.

[dusky grove]

agreed, which is why he apologized

[fading cradle]

The bigger issue though is they linked it to a pattern of his (including the interview with Dr. K)

[dusky grove]

it's like people being so outraged at [insert descrimination here] while not being part of that group, and having people from that group go "What are yall talking about...? this doesn't bother us"

[fading cradle]

Nahh, if you said it doesn't bother you, you'd be called a corpo shill as well

[summer night]

when you find a issue the more you force it the bigger it get "mountains out of mole hill"

[fading cradle]

Case in point: Nintendo

[opal bronze]

he indeed does have a pattern

[dusky grove]

I agree, the pattern does exist. and I hope it is something thats on his mind. People can fix their issues, but only if they know it exists. And I think he only realized it existed recently

[opal bronze]

i still think he doesn't see it

even with the dr k interview

or doesn't want to

[dusky grove]

it takes time. but we can hope

[opal bronze]

idk

[dusky grove]

only time will tell yknow

[fading cradle]

I mean, you wouldn't say what he said if he DID notice.

[dusky grove]

i know I've been dense AF to my problems for years. and it took years after realizing to get better

correcting a problem isn't a switch people flip. it takes time and effort

and people can falter

and slip

that's just part of being human

[terse pelican]

People assume you're going to change the moment you know there's an issue, It's really not that simple, You have to identify the pattern, and work on dissasembling it

It's not a switch on / off

Like Addiction, You NEED time to get past it

[dusky grove]

how many chances people give you, that's up to them yknow

the important thing we can do is keep him accountable without making things worse

[opal bronze]

he needs to do another interview with dr k and be more receptive and show he's taking it on board cuz that's like the only way i feel

[terse pelican]

'' He has to do this thing, the way I want him to do it''

Literally not how it works, He has to do it his way

[quasi viper]

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-principal-skinner-skinner-children-out-of-touch-gif-4463952

[summer night]

see i disagree with that, i think it need to be offline

[opal bronze]

no i mean to show he's grown

to the public

if he was gonna

[dusky grove]

we can't force him to see, we can only hope he finds it himself. I did find that last dr.k interview... like... somewhat frustrating

[tribal canyon]

sums up the last few days

[dusky grove]

like he was so close to syncing wavelengths but couldn't

[fading cradle]

much better, do it privately

take time off YouTube

[opal bronze]

that too

i agree

[dusky grove]

but oh well, as long as he's breathing there's always next time. The only time it's too late is when you're dead

[idle hill]

He's already apologized to Ross publicly. What else do you want from him?

[fading cradle]

or, if his YT channel is dead

[summer night]

to be honest i think its got to the point "i cured cancer" we still hate you

[idle hill]

wait are we still talking thor or is this that nintendo founder thing

if its the latter ignore what I said

[summer night]

thor

[dusky grove]

ehh, he should still try to be better even if he wasn't a public figure

[quasi viper]

i mean the bigger problem is he isn't some 20 year old our man pushing 40 years old and acting like that and i think that's the bigger problem

[fading cradle]

but there is a bigger standard for YT influencers. It can make or break their careers after all

[terse pelican]

''Do better'' Keeps being repeated, Regardless of what he does. It's never enough

[dusky grove]

speaking of people who should try to be better. I wonder how sinder's doing (no we are not gonna go on a tangent about her)

[worthy ivy]

this is everything wrong with this debate - it's not SKG-vs-not-SKG...

it's "ThOr Is A bAd AnD nEeDs To RePeNt HiS wRoNgThInK"

[dusky grove]

true

[fading cradle]

anyways, it's up to him how he navigates the issue

[summer night]

what happend to sinder?

[idle hill]

Like Thor, she apologized publicly to the people that needed it. She's doing okay, just taking her time offline.

[dusky grove]

I do think we should move on from this topic on morality

[dusky grove]

manipulater her friends and artists to get ahead. Cancelled.

[terse pelican]

TLDR: Drama.

[idle hill]

I do worry about her since she's been gone for almost 3 months

[fading cradle]

let's go back to Nintendon't jk

[opal bronze]

after the 3hr dm conversation

but i digress

i also don't really want to keep harping on about it

[idle hill]

It was shown that was all Redacted's doing, and any "throwing him under the bus" was just holding RED accountable for his own actions. She took accountability for her own shortcomings and apologized for it.

[dusky grove]

I remember watching sinder before she was sinder. its a shame honestly. fame changes people, or rather... it exposes the worst parts of people

[fading cradle]

For now, while I doubt he will do this, the apology isn't enough. The most probable way to appease people is to revisit the issue once again. But if he doesn't change his stance, stopping to cover it is much beter imo

[quasi viper]

i mean thor did just berate him outta the gates so it's not unexpected that thor might have a bit of a problem any just started going in and a bit personal as well

[worthy ivy]

"stopping to cover it is much beter imo" - like not making a single statement about it for ten months?

[dusky grove]

I don't think he would. Talking about it would bring attention to the movement which isn't something he wants i think

[idle hill]

Ross insulted the legislators' intelligence that would have been working on the initiative, while simultaneously asking them to make it law. I think Thor's anger was justified.

[fading cradle]

Yes I know. I just tell that it's the only way to quell the issue.

[dusky grove]

He's taken his stance of "I've said my piece. Peace out" and clearly doesn't want to be dragged back into something he doesn't approve of

[rough maple]

You know, if Thor was hypothetically going to say something along the lines of "Sorry, you're right, I was wrong", he should add at the end "Now that this is off the list of demands, are you now going to sign the initiative instead of yelling at me?"

I believe that they'd completely ignore the latter part and prove that the initiative was gonna fail anyway 'cuz that's not what people truly cared about.

This is a GIGANTIC stretch... but it amuses me to think about it.

[fading cradle]

It's not an insult when many legislators are still late to the party when understanding and implementing tech-related laws. It's the reason why Apple still gets away through MALICIOUS COMPLIANCE.

[quasi viper]

just goes with the saying think before you speak, no one seems to be doing this recently

[idle hill]

You should watch this and see what you think of her apology. But that's gonna be the end of the Sinder discussion for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxwzzFaic58

[tight bramble]

The mob wants Thor to crash out. He's not, so they are ramping up the pressure to force the crash. It's not working, so the collabs are happening to force the crash. It's just like his stream of 'getting over it' where he bob rossed every fall, and stream lost it trying to get him to crash out.

[dusky grove]

just because its true doesn't mean it's not an insult. People call me fat, it's true AND an insult

[fluid dome]

It's almost as if a streamer has mote influence than they think and don't actually check what they're saying before they say it 🙃

[golden mirage]

the slow pace of the legislature has nothing to do with intelligence.

[idle hill]

"They didn't know, so they're to blame"

[summer night]

you made me spit my drink thanks

[fading cradle]

didn't said that, @idle hill did: "Ross insulted the legislators' intelligence that would have been working on the initiative, while simultaneously asking them to make it law. I think Thor's anger was justified."

[worthy ivy]

from the point of view of an semi-outsider (haven't been here long, not a dev, just a DJ):
these past few days here has been a constant stream of peeps coming in either demanding Thor bend the knee and admit his OPINION is "wrong" (wtaf?) or throwing shade at Thor for "attacking" their movement... there's only one group doing the attacking and it's not Thor or any of the Goblins
'sup with that?!?

[terse pelican]

What I'm getting from this is ''I want Pirate to apologize'' - He did. - ''It's not enough.'' All over again

[idle hill]

Don't put words in my mouth, that's disgusting as hell.
I meant exactly what I said, without regards to the speed of legislature.

[tight bramble]

Yeah its just more movement of the goal posts.

[dusky grove]

I'm sorry you did that to yourself

[summer night]

also your not fat just have more love to go around

[terse pelican]

Do people really want him to do a Crying Mascara Ukulele apology video while he's at it, Just so you can go ''Not enough'' ?

[idle hill]

They want him to quit, ultimately.

They want him to lose his source of income and suffer because he has a differing opinion.

[terse pelican]

I honestly Agree with Thor when he says ''The Internet Sucks''

[summer night]

see i was thinking a logan paul one

[tight bramble]

The ultimate crash out "see we were right he crashed out he sucks!"

[fading cradle]

More like they want him to make another vid, apologize, and support the movement.

[quasi viper]

i learned that long ago long before internet drama back in 2005

https://tenor.com/view/leave-britney-alone-sad-cry-gif-12920108

[fading cradle]

But more likely, it's too late to do any of those things

[dusky grove]

and then they'll go "You're just doing this to save face"

[fading cradle]

this. it's too late to apologize

[terse pelican]

The Internet can go suck a fat one with that kind of attitude, They only want Yes-men that support their cuddly little opinion, with no regard for the bigger picture

[idle hill]

They would say he flip flopped on his opinion, and is apologizing because he got caught. His support would confuse the majority of his own fanbase, not even helping the initiative.

[golden mirage]

And you replied saying its not an insult because they are stupid and used the slow pace of legislature as "proof". One has nothing to do with the other.

And yes, what you said equates to, they are stupid.

[tight bramble]

Brittany was legit suffering

[dusky grove]

that was a banger song. completely unrelated but you just activated a sleeper agent LOL

[fading cradle]

pardon, was just confused.

[quasi viper]

so was i at the ripe age of 10

[tight bramble]

Hey
.....got any grapes?

[terse pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/lemonade-grapes-bomp-gif-12360313

[dusky grove]

no. Want some lemonade?

[fading cradle]

with the common sentiment against corpos, nothing we can do. Look, people who continue to buy Nintendo games are even called "Nintendrones"

[tight bramble]

😦 why hurt me on my day of mourning? My poor glass......

[rough maple]

You know, you just made me wonder... how many people who accused Thor of being a corporate shill own a Switch 2 now?

Ya kno', despite all the outrage about the price, the cards and lots of other stuff.

[fading cradle]

hah, I mean, with the issue, they called him an "industry plant" so...

[dusky grove]

Sometimes I worry if I've joined one of those "Mindless sheep" communities that will continue to support a monster. Then I look here and go "yeah thor does have a few problems" and we can criticise him and I feel a bit better about myself

[fluid dome]

You're assuming these fools can actually afford a switch 2

[quasi viper]

ice spice is a real industry plant

she just spawned one day

[dusky grove]

Ice spice? arrakis is too hot for ice

[worthy ivy]

well that's obviously not going to happen - at least it's obvious if you actually listen to his words

man has conviction, he clearly isn't 'shilling' or an 'industry plant'... he's a dude with an organic point of view that he arrived at himself through thinking

you can't cancel that with mean tweets and Discord brigading

[fluid dome]

This is how Birth works

[quasi viper]

she got a default ass birthday too

[fluid dome]

You just spawn in and have to immediately figure out how to not die

[quasi viper]

[dusky grove]

"Default ass birthday" ahahahahaha

Is it a bad time to say mine is march 3rd

[fading cradle]

let's see. Remember that all it takes is one issue to destroy someone's reputation

[rough maple]

Mood.
One day you're alive and you never find out how that began.
Another day you're an adult, and nobody left you an instruction manual. "Figure it out yourself, good luck". 🙃

[fluid dome]

Also shout out to Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 for having a hardcore difficulty mode that kills you as soon as you start the game

[dusky grove]

Accurate for the time period

[rancid mauve]

well... thats depressing to remember that 2000 was 25 years ago...

[opal bronze]

is that default?

[quasi viper]

y2k

[fading cradle]

Conviction will never save a person. In fact, conviction could absolutely destroy a person.

[quasi viper]

[dusky grove]

if 01 01 is, I assume 02 02 and 03 03 are too

[opal bronze]

oh i suppose yeah

[fluid dome]

old

[quasi viper]

what if it's binary

[tight bramble]

Yeah mines not. Just generated npc birthday you see when scanning in watch dogs.

[fluid dome]

Shit

Wrong reply

[quasi viper]

you shouldn't say that discord will smack you for the under 13 joke

[opal bronze]

ah shit you're right

i keep forgetting, i like the joke too much

im only LEGAL AGE, LEGAL AGE is APPROPRIATE

[idle hill]

Well, yeah. But the people trying to cancel him clearly didn't listen to his words. They'd rather take the clips that Charlie and Endymion showed them, forget anything that happened before/after, and use that against him with no protest.
That alone, to them, is enough justification for someone to destroy their entire career, because in their head, they already did it.

[worthy ivy]

has to be a real thing though - ideology is just a construct - if he was running around Korea like Johnny Somali then yeah, he could be cancelled because there's something real that can be pointed to that people without an axe to grind can agree is bad behaviour...

not agreeing with someone, no matter how much you disagree, just isn't something that you can cancel someone outside your group with - that only works within a closed community, where "banishment" is akin to death

[dusky grove]

what clips did charlie show in his vid? i didn't watch it

[terse pelican]

I'll be honest, Somali ain't getting ''canceled'' He's just gonna end up in Prison as a time-out for a few years

[quasi viper]

statistically humans are getting dumber every year it's provable

[terse pelican]

Too many people enjoy his stupid ass content

[worthy ivy]

not the best example, was just looking for one that most would agree he's a knob

[idle hill]

Neither did I. I watched the Endymion video and unsubbed because it devolved into insults and attacks on his character.

[opal bronze]

its because im the statistical anomaly making it look like that in comparison

[fading cradle]

Yeah. Though tbh, the mortal sin would be to hurt someone. Linus has survived so many cancellation since he didn't hurt someone

[terse pelican]

It's a fair example, I'm just skeptical about it.

[fluid dome]

Everyone has the potential to act like a twat but it takes a special kind of knobhead to actually follow through

[worthy ivy]

yeah, linus is a good example - he's always been the target of ideological cancellation - that doesn't fly in the real world, hence why he's not cancelled

[summer night]

thanks mods

[tight bramble]

Damn....dude got got.

[terse pelican]

As he should

WE don't need that stuff here

[quasi viper]

there is a lot of comedians this applies to

[dusky grove]

i mean, he just came to troll, not talk

[quasi viper]

[summer night]

dont mind discussing but that nah

[rough maple]

I mean, Thor explicitly said he was gonna ban shit stirrers. lol

[terse pelican]

As he should

[tight bramble]

I agree just never seent it happen here. I've only been in the community for a few days.

[fading cradle]

be careful though, don't overdo or you'll be accused with banning those who don't support ur worldview

[worthy ivy]

Everyone can be a knob - I am sometimes - the real question is 'are you a full-time knob or part-time?'

I try to be parttime knob

[rough maple]

I mean, there are a lot of peeps here who are in favor of SKG, and none of them was banned 'cuz they've been civil.
Soooooo...

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/yikes-monkey-look-and-leave-yikes-monkey-look-and-leave-gif-14895670

[opal bronze]

what a time to join

[quasi viper]

you will please some of the people some of the time, but if you try yo please everyone you please no one

[summer night]

im saying nothing

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/all-of-this-pointing-up-there-see-this-gif-14720503

[dusky grove]

at the end of the day, people should curate their internet space. And this is technically his.

[summer night]

i know what i am

[late bane]

"You should die, eat shit!" sounds like what a wizard screams before casting fireball 🤣

[tight bramble]

Yeah ikr lol

[dusky grove]

I'd have hoped that someone with a high INT score would be able to come up with a better insult

[late bane]

for real though, but I love derpy wizards

[terse pelican]

Thine exsistance shall cease to be. - High Int Wizard

[tight bramble]

"I caaaaast..........PORTA porta potty!"

[worthy ivy]

yeah, I managed to land right as the last round of WoW dram-drams was bubbling up - was mental then, this is more interesting to me because there's actually something of import behind it (and I couldn't understand any of the WoW stuff, not a WoWer at all) - but the madness end of it recently has been just as mad 😦

[quasi viper]

this is actually a fundamental problem for humans, they want to feel like the main character for knowing information about someone, that other people might not know, thus having influence over them, but never want that drama to be about themselves

[late bane]

"I summon feseas!" wet flabbery fart noise

[quasi viper]

human phycology sure is interesting

[tight bramble]

A bit more choke, and she woulda started!

[summer night]

out of interest tho for the floor, it does feel to me thor is getting more hate than others whom have done nasty stuff. or is that just me?

[fickle bluff]

Insults are CHA based, which is often a dump stat for Wizards. So that checks out.

[late bane]

needed a higher vader stat

[worthy ivy]

I am the main character...
... in my questline

we all have our own custom crafted story arc to play - we are /all/ the Protagonist

[terse pelican]

I think it's just perspective, How active are you in other Yubers/Streamers communities in comparrison

[idle hill]

It's in proportion to his size as a creator. Some of his own followers turn against him, along with a percentage of people from the creators who put out hit pieces on him.

[late bane]

my questline got corrupted so I am looking for an unfinished NPC as a host

[worthy ivy]

did Bethesda write yours?

[tight bramble]

I am the npc that just drives in a circle in gta.

[late bane]

my systems were jammed and forgotten about

[terse pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/linus-tech-tips-ltt-bug-gif-19900847

[late bane]

too unique, scope creep got me

[dusky grove]

I think... yeah... it just feels like its one after another. The only other cancel campaign I've seen first hand is Chuggaaconroy's a few years ago, but that was contained to like 2 months and ended when Emile made his response and went to therapy

[tight bramble]

I am a star citizen UI element lmao

[summer night]

i feel im in a game thats being modded by dougdoug

[quasi viper]

thor harbors gays, and is a furry i think it makes him a prime target for certain groups unfortunately, a lot of people stick onto buzzwords instead of facts thats why it works

[rough maple]

I kind of agree.

Nowadays, I believe that we, as humans, are deeply unsatisfied with our lives.
We want to do "something", make the world a better place, be part of a revolution.
So, we grasp onto anything that would bring us to something that even remotely resembles that goal.

Problem is... blindly following anything, without knowing what the battle is about, ends up causing more harm than good.

[idle hill]

I've seen this happen with Bahroo, with Sinder, ImLadle, and now Thor. People just hate others for succeeding where they didn't, rather than using them as inspiration to improve themselves.

[late bane]

at least you are related to lifetime insurance, even though it's no longer offered

[quasi viper]

https://tenor.com/view/dougdoug-hot-guys-dougdoug-shirtless-hot-hot-guy-gif-4678261353591792422

[idle hill]

I think I've even seen Thor get attacked for having Bahroo on stream, even

[dusky grove]

oh speaking of cancelled. C9... or ex C9 mango just lost everything

[summer night]

beautiful man

[idle hill]

might've been with that Space Marines game

[worthy ivy]

"harbors gays" was not on my bingo card for 2025

[tight bramble]

Yeah I'd rather be the ship insurance from elite dangerous

[worthy ivy]

hello, yes this is 1950 here we'd like our tired tropes back pls 🙂

lmao

[summer night]

used in unexpected ways?

[quasi viper]

didn't say it was a bad thing i'd say at least 50% of the server at least maybe a little less

i'd say about 30-35% of the server is probably furries it's just prime internet targets

[worthy ivy]

didn't think you were, just seemed odd - like someone said the other day that he was "hoarding ferrets"

how doyou "hoard" a ferret?

[tight bramble]

No 95% coverage. That way my mom doesn't have to spend as much.

[stone nacelle]

thought furries ran the internet

[terse pelican]

I feel that using the term ''Harboring'' makes it sound like he's hiding them from the government

[quasi viper]

you collect them

[worthy ivy]

this

made it funny

[late bane]

hoarding being a relative word to a large amount, seems like a vocab quirk

[stone nacelle]

safe harbor stuff

[worthy ivy]

gotta catch 'em all?

[stone nacelle]

like its safe for everyone, hopefully

[late bane]

harbor freight or harbor ferret, you decide

[terse pelican]

Safe space/Safe Haven yeah

[summer night]

i feel like im missing out im just a software dev

[idle hill]

I try to stick to streamers that are honest about their opinion, and stick by it. Oftentimes, they can come out as harsh, as Thor and Bahroo have. If they choose to attack someone else over a reasonable statement or decision, I stop watching, like I have with many people in the past.

[quasi viper]

where the programming socks

[stone nacelle]

like, its safe for jerks to be here, but language must be moderated

[summer night]

in my draw it saturday

[idle hill]

Finding ferrets... in harbor freight

[terse pelican]

Harbor Freight Ferrets?

[stone nacelle]

i was expecting a sticking note that said 'you'

[late bane]

so, you have chosen mediocrity, I almost pity you

[stone nacelle]

so many tools

like wheres the meme

[late bane]

yes, hi

[idle hill]

Java gets no socks

[tight bramble]

Ferrets that break easily? 😦

[terse pelican]

For Java, You have the socks on your hands

[late bane]

need the grippers out to hold the cup of java properly

[terse pelican]

They sadly kinda do, Blame Marshalls Farms

[quasi viper]

i do code barefoot

[rough maple]

I wonder what Malbolge coding socks would be.

[worthy ivy]

do they make the broken lab mice too?

something something lab mice are all the same genetics something something wrong number of telomers across the whole population...

[terse pelican]

I have no idea about Mice

[fickle bluff]

Well, so far Thor has committed at least 3 cardinal sins of the internet:

1. Pointed out flaws and nuances of a thing that is, effectively, a "good intentions" tactical nuke.
2. Refused to cave in under public pressure and doubled down on his original stance.
3. Refused to dedicate his waking hours to defending against every piece of crap thrown his way on social media and just moved on with his life.

The last one is especially egregious. Nothing triggers people on the internet more, than being ignored.

[rough maple]

I think he gave the biggest example with his Getting Over It livestream.

[terse pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/damned-if-you-damned-if-you-dont-simpsons-bart-paradox-gif-17444879

Bart sums up everything.

[idle hill]

Don't forget 4: Continued to succeed regardless of the backlash

[placid plover]

I did not know this until now

but thats funny af

[tight bramble]

"Sherd my pants" lolololol

[placid plover]

Looool

[tight bramble]

Also have some soft crumbs

[placid plover]

https://tenor.com/view/falling-toast-live-toast-reaction-toast-dies-gif-7238761997416289033

[fickle bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-bread-meme-googly-eyes-lick-gif-4828919955563198017

[earnest mirage]

to Nr1. the other side managed to "nuke" it by themselves in the way they reacted to it.
If you have a mass of people dogpiling on someone because they have a different opinion (justified or not doesn't matter), most other content creators with way bigger range will simply ignore it. They are not interested in getting into crossfire for having a different opinion.

[fluid dome]

https://youtu.be/9euKCrTyMEc?si=fb7enf_NIPM3vjhP

Peak video

[placid plover]

😂

[real cradle]

What's sticking out to me is that all the attention has suddenly garnered 150k votes on the initiative in the EU overnight. Which begs the question: if all it took to succeed was getting a couple big streamers to make a supporting video when signatures were coming due...why didn't they just do that and skip the drama?

[wild mesa]

God forbid an organisation defends itself against misinformation, how horrible

[fickle bluff]

While you're not wrong, I believe we've got a bit of a misunderstanding here. I didn't mean that Thor's stance on the initiative nuked it in some way. The initiative itself, the way it is presented now, is a "nuke". It attempts to fix specific "pain-points" with a "carpet" solution that'll affect the entire industry, completely disregarding any potential collateral damage it'll cause, hence the "nuke" comparison.

[earnest mirage]

all it would have taken is all dudes instead of dogpiling simply ignore the person and continue to support it, like reach out to others and keep drum the thing up.
Instead they did nothing in between and after it was mentioned again after months go back to dogpiling 🤷

[worthy ivy]

the dram-drams is the point isn't it?
that's how I read the situation

there are some peeps coming through who support the initiative and people here are pretty diverse in their takes - we've had some good debate

but we have a lot a mud-flinging and drama-llama-farmering too

[earnest mirage]

gotcha, english is not my first language. Sorry if i got that wrong 🙂

[terse pelican]

JFC, One of the comments on the Hearbound Steam Forum

[fickle bluff]

It's all good. Ain't a native-speaker myself, so I feel ya on that one. 😁

[earnest mirage]

i guess i doesn't want to know what they wrote.

[terse pelican]

What they wrote AND their account name/PFP.

[earnest mirage]

omg

[terse pelican]

Reported the whole account cause, Yeah it's that bad

[sharp sundial]

it's utter insanity. they want a scapegoat; not a conversation no matter how many times they insist that it's a good faith effort to make "thor understand that he's wrong"

Absolute trash panda behavior.

even after all the videos, and all the scapegoating it's barely made around 95k signitures.

[hot elk]

I've watched his videos and he's just incorrect its kinda driving me bonkers with how blatantly wrong he is and to still be so willfully ignorant

and then to refuse to have an actual convo with Ross is just icing on the cake. That's the behavior of someone who knows they are wrong and cannot admit it

I'm very disappointed in Thor and this community I had thought this was a place to be empathetic and uplifting but clearly I was wrong

to tell Ross to "eat my entire ass" and so on is wild behavior

[terse pelican]

He apologized to Ross.

But you'll say it's not enough.

[hot elk]

When and where

[earnest mirage]

those dudes never will

1 sec

https://www.twitch.tv/piratesoftware/clip/TriumphantAcceptableKimchiKevinTurtle-RjttHMtmFyJ3ZHok

[hot elk]

10/10 apology

wish that was on the main channel

[sharp sundial]

This was posted everywhere, no one cared they want their pound of flesh. :/

he even had private convos with josh strife hayes and critikal about the situation that went pretty well, it's a great move forward but no one cares, he posted this directly from his main account on twitter.

[hot elk]

Fair but lets not victimize Thor here when it's easier to not have been an ass in the first place

[terse pelican]

Let's not victimize Thor? Let's not victimize Ross.

Works both ways

[sharp sundial]

I'm not even some pirate software stan, i've seen maybe 5-6 of his videos; I watched this happen from the sidelines.

There is a reason creators have to tell their communities not to pull this BS.

and in this case, creators havn't which makes it look targeted.

it made me anti-SKG just from the vile vile shit I saw being said.

[hot elk]

I mean you punch someone in the face then feel bad about it doesn't make you a victim when you get punished for that

[terse pelican]

So we should just disregard apologies alltogether?

Thor apologized, and I'm sorry that you can't accept it, But not Thors problem at that point.

[hot elk]

from my pov as a long standing fan of Ross and Thor the way this has been handled from Thor's side has been undeniably shitty. from the factually incorrect assertions of SKG to the personal attacks and now to this whole "I'm the victam of this evil community" I just can't really understand how Thor didn't just sit and have a public chat to let both him and Ross clear the air together

[sharp sundial]

right? then what is all the harassment for, if it's not to have him apologize to ross, which he did.

if someone wants to change someone's mind, this is NOT the way to do it in any way shape or form.

[hot elk]

heh lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater friend, I said it was a good apology and I respect it wholly. But to then jump to "Thor is the actual victim" is incorrect

[earnest mirage]

you can get mad at me for pointing this out, but ross actually started it. https://x.com/accursedfarms/status/1820776020074512657 This post was his response to the first video before even tried to reach out to thor the next day when everything was on fire.

[sharp sundial]

if I saw actual attempts at real discussion in the last week, I would be more neutral. but that's not what i've seen in any of the videos; critikal possibly being the worst.

[hot elk]

How is this "starting it" when this is a response to what Thor already said?

[pine prism]

isnt that just pointing out a misunderstanding?

[earnest mirage]

the way it's written incited his community to dogpile on thor.

[hot elk]

A very bold and unprovable statment my friend

[earnest mirage]

okay dude

[pine prism]

assuming ignorance over malice is a good virtue smh

[fluid dome]

Blaming thor for misrepresenting the initiative when Ross openly admitted to leaving the wording vague is actually insane

[hot elk]

How?

[fluid dome]

My brother in Christ he even says it on the damn faq

And in multiple videos

[hot elk]

Yeah no I know what Ross said I'm saying how is blaming Thor insane

[pine prism]

i think the EU commission or whoever will decide it will have to set such specifics in a realistic matter in the first place

[hot elk]

I'm 100% fully not trying to rage bait I just want to have a debate on this because I'm seriously hoping this community was what I thought it was in the first place

[fluid dome]

If the wording is vague and it leads to misinformation who is at fault? The person receiving the info or the one putting the info out there to begin with

[earnest mirage]

"Our biggest critic"... "but I think he would be against it regardless".... sounds very neutral, yep.

[pine prism]

the community has nothing to do with it tbh, people have different opinions, just because Thor said he believes X i don't think everyone here will start believing X

[sharp sundial]

I think the problem is that the initiative is too vague, it's leading to fears amongst some devs that will affect the use of say DRM to protect their games from piracy. Because this is just an petition, I think maybe thor was too aggressive as it wasn't an actual law to be passed.

But at the same time, the attempts to address his fears have been less than diplomatic and to try and blame him solely for the fact that the initative failing is far too scapegoaty. There is no way that a medium sized american creator caused half a million people to not sign a petition and zero evidence of him actually having any effect on it has been presented.

[hot elk]

Okay hell yeah It's vague and this easily misunderstood. why it's vague is a differnt beast all together. So Video 1 Thor interptates his pov of it. Then Ross is like "hey that's not totally correct lets chat" and then Thro goes "eat my entire ass" and I hope the order of events has a very standout moment to where things turned sharply and why people feel justified in being upset at Thor.

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/dirty-docks-shawty-triflin-shawty-triflin-she-gif-22455514

[sharp sundial]

🥹 😂

[pine prism]

Wasn't the main issue about live service games tho?

[fluid dome]

The main example used was the crew

[hot elk]

Yeah that's what I'm hoping but I usualy just hangout on stream and there it's kinda awful

[sharp sundial]

that's a great question isnt it? it's so vague that there are multiple interpretations of what it could cause

if passed in to law as worded in the initative

[pine prism]

I doubt that, iirc recently EU parliament was starting to propose laws against gatcha or more strict regulations in general arount ingame currencies based off on real world money that were pretty based

those might be more damaging than this ngl LOL

[hot elk]

Nothing about being neutral but Ross's response to many is a very appropriate one where as when Thor when full hate rage on skg that felt very inappropriate in context to how civil conversations and disagreements go

[sharp sundial]

See the thing for me, is I thought it was about games like the crew, which isn't a live service game as far as i'm aware.

[fluid dome]

Thor's entire point in this whole drama is that the wording is too vague and that will lead to the wrong kinds of conversations. That's it.

[sharp sundial]

where Ubi just yanked it from people's librariees

[pine prism]

nowhere it said it was only about that, however there might be exceptions in the real actual policy

[sharp sundial]

exactly!

lol

[pine prism]

just because you disagree with an use case doesn't mean you have to throw the whole package away tho

oh i don't like beetroots in my salad lets throw the whole thing away

[fluid dome]

They didn't yank it from people's libraries, they shut down servers for a decade old game because the licensing agreements for the cars and the music had expired + they were already moving on to newer crew games anyway. It wouldn't have been cost effective to keep The Crew running

[hot elk]

Yall the Point is to be vague that's how the law works. As citizens and not lawyers we bring up the issue and say "this needs to be fixed" and then the lawyers try to figure out the most fair way to fix the issue. At least that's the idea

[sharp sundial]

Ah see? so vague that even i'm wrong about what it was about

lol

[hot elk]

It's a messy and hard issue to solve

[sharp sundial]

look at how easy that is, i could be accused of misrepresenting it I guess.

and now you could accuse me of doing so maliciously

[hot elk]

but that is why it's been left open so eveyone can come to the table and solve it fairly

[sharp sundial]

which is the major problem with the discourse.