streamchat

[sterile nexus]

so someone breaks the law to ruin you? then the authorities get involved and jail that person because laws exist. then you continue your business. or you build DDoS protections into your servers or license some.

[polar sandal]

The initiative is simple

[indigo wadi]

But without the law, speed limits wouldn't exist, therefore, speed limits do tell you how to drive. Saying that limits are enforced by municipalities doesn't change the fact that the law encompasses enforcing the speed limit.

[lunar moth]

I literally just explained how that doesn't make any sense.

[gentle mortar]

Tell me about it, not much of talking, just lurking

[indigo wadi]

I get dragged into arguing way too easily LOL

[buoyant arrow]

I'm just flabberghasted at this point.

[indigo wadi]

Ever heard of false allegations? False allegations are also against the law.

[sterile nexus]

nah you made up a story and decided it ends the discussion. theres solutions to everything if you work at it. like building in protections against DDoS attacks and moving on

[polar sandal]

"Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement of the publisher."

it is really that simple

[indigo wadi]

It's honestly just a lot of pandering to excuse the poorly worded initiative

[polar sandal]

that is the aim of the initiative

[gentle mortar]

I commend you for your wilfullness to type, where when I start, the argument has already moved on

[polar sandal]

and the FAQ answers it even further

[indigo wadi]

quick fingers wiggles eyesbrows

[honest sage]

Well in this case, i would assume you would take action against whoever is ddosing you.
I understand that in some countries that is not always easy to do, but then the argument is that people who break the law, get to profit from it, more than people who obey the law. Which is true, but not isolated to this issue.

Regarding the release of server software that only runs on your hardware, that case is considered. You're not required to make sure that the software can run on any other hardware than yours, so you can release the server binaries, and document what hardware it used to run on, and then it's up to the community to figure out how to get it running, but they have the tools to do so now.

[lunar moth]

I literally explained how this has been done in real life, and, again - Thor provides more examples of this from 10 months ago.

@honest sage this applies to what you just said to me as well.
All the SKG initiative is doing, including in the "summary" of what GlisteringLime is posting in regards to the image, is facilitating making the actual hostile takeover legal.
To DDoS a server is illegal yes, and it will continue to be so - the problem is that the suggestion in all of this is how the SKG intiative, including what GlisteringLime is posting, makes the hostile takeover legal.

This is why this change would negatively impact indie developers who cannot fight this, but larger companies like Blizzard would be mostly unaffected.
SKG is anti-indie developer rather explicitly by what it proposes.

[indigo wadi]

FAQ cannot be included in the initiative, so the FAQ is a dead section.

[polar sandal]

The text I quoted is official from the europa.eu website: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32024D1824

[wary drift]

Except that there is an entire box of worms in how and when that's going to apply, which is the issue.

[polar sandal]

It's vague for a reason, and that is in order to let lawmakers make good laws for how exactly this should be applied. SKG made their intentions clear

An initiative is not a law proposal.

[indigo wadi]

and yet other proposals were more specific and able to get the signatures to be passed?

[polar sandal]

again, not a proposal

it is an initiative

and in terms of it being more specific, for videogames, it has to be vague

[indigo wadi]

other initiatives/proposals (an initiative is a proposal) were more specific and able to get sigs and get passed.

[high ember]

if you don't like games that end, find games that don't and play those

[indigo wadi]

False and we've seen it explained why it cannot be vague.

[wary lotus]

Games fall under a category called "Non-essential Luxury Goods".

There won't be any special laws made here, since it's a luxury product.

[polar sandal]

would you like the term being something like "Publishers must leave the game in a 100% functional state", or rather "Publishers must leave the game in a reasonably functional state"

[indigo wadi]

Board games 😄

[buoyant arrow]

Why publishers?

Why not developers?

[honest sage]

Cars are a luxury product.. There's a lot of laws for those

[polar sandal]

"reasonable" makes sense, and is used in law - for example, when a cop has reasonable suspicion in order to stop you

[buoyant arrow]

What if the publisher has no actually technical involvement with the game?

[indigo wadi]

Probably because it's more publishers in control than developers

[buoyant arrow]

Would they be on the hook, and the developer free to go?

[high ember]

so true
WoW will die a slow death, but Chess is forever

[indigo wadi]

truth

[wary drift]

Okay.
Let's take a step back.

You want it to be vague, so that lawmakers can make good laws.
Presumably, the good laws would be more specific, to account for glaring issues, like the ones Thor pointed at.
Wouldn't that suggest it's in SKG's interest to incorproate Thor's criticism and/or bring on other industry experts so they can advise the lawmakers while advocating for the spirit of the initiative?

Because so far all I've seen from SKG is shunning experts and developers for being the enemy.

[wary lotus]

Sometimes the publisher owns the game rights, and Dev team switches.

Who would be responsible for making the game function after end-of-life then?
There are just way too many issues to unpack.

[polar sandal]

This is something that should be considered in the agreement with the publisher in the first place.

[lunar moth]

Yes, and this is why we see there being no contention over when a cop makes a false arrest ever because that never happens...

The fact that you and Ross think this is an actual argument proves why this is a slogan, and not an actual serious thing.

[wary drift]

It's used in US law

People keep saying Reasonable is a legal term

It's a legal term in US law

[zenith summit]

I would think developers want people to play their games, its more the publishers only caring about money

[wary lotus]

Ross means well - but he kinda doesn't consider the bad effects...
He just goes "It will totally work out guys - we never had laws that backfired on us, consumers."

[cyan adder]

Thor doesn't get to be sad about MYM ending when he talked shit about the movement trying to keep stuff like this from happening

[sterile nexus]

I reread your message to ensure I understood it, it assumes that all of these cause and effect situations are instant recourse. "the DDoS occurred so now I must release my code." essentially. the law would not make this a case. you could indefinitely sit and wait and say the servers are down adn the service is off until the DDoS attacks are solved and just sit and wait instead being forced to action. the initiative say "have an end of life plan" not "you must deploy it the second you cant provide your game anymore. more speicif law may arise down the road but that isnt what this is and this story/route of occurrences youre describing feels very strawman to me, though i dont thing it was intended that way.

[indigo wadi]

reasonable is ambiguous

a cop can detain you falsely

under the pretense of reasonable

[round bolt]

all I've seen from SKG is shunning experts and developers for being the enemy.
Im more curious about this. I dont know anyone else being argued at besides thor

[wary lotus]

Thor is being attacked cause he has a lot of followers. It's a simple publicity stunt, that's all.

[wary drift]

Which is a second layer of why it doesn't apply in this discussion, since even where it is officially recognized as a legal term, it's barely defined

[honest sage]

True, but that isn't really a problem in EU

[buoyant arrow]

Yes it is

What the hell

The EU isn't some magical perfect land of personal liberty

[lunar moth]

And again, you don't get this, because these DDoS attacks can last for months.

In Blizzard's case these things have been going on for literal decades and happen every few months.

[buoyant arrow]

I live here

[zenith summit]

its more because he misrepresented skg and as a big content creator, when people search for information about skg they only see his videos with all the misinformation

[livid path]

Don’t forget everyone it’s ok to have different opinions and not come to an agreement, just saying ❤️

[honest sage]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, i'm saying it doesn't really. Meaning, it isn't a widespread issue

[wary lotus]

I listened to how Ross presents his cases.
Ross means well, but boy... he is terrible at presenting his case.

[polar sandal]

Thor didn't even read the FAQ correctly, nor did he understand the initiative. SKG already is aiming to account for the various issues with a vague statement like that, the way it should be addressed is in the FAQ. If they lied in their FAQ, they would have misled people and therefore they could potentially be sued for this. Also, the European Commission is not stupid, they know about the website and they know what their goals are.

[wary drift]

They're talking specifically about the term "reasonable" which holds a weird place in US law justifying a lot of bad actions

[indigo wadi]

Can't say for sure if that's the case, but that's a moot point i feel

[high ember]

there are larger creators who were on the side of SKG

[zenith summit]

I agree with you, he needed someone else to present it

[indigo wadi]

and this is his 2nd go around

[sterile nexus]

I build websites for a living, and i understand games are more complex to a degree, but if one of my customers sites gets DDoS attacked I can toggle a switch in cloudflare and the attack is over. like over over. they are surmountable and outdated.

[indigo wadi]

Why can't you accept that the FAQ cannot be part of the initiative?

[zenith summit]

maybe, but the other creators were not game developers

[indigo wadi]

I'd love to see Cohn's take on SKG

[wary lotus]

Honestly the biggest issue for SKG is that Ross is just... absolutely terrible at presenting his case.

I watched his interview with JoshStrifeHayes.
Poor Josh was trying his hardest to force Ross into saying the things properly, but Ross kept shooting himself in the foot repeatedly....

He needed someone to just reword his stuff....

[white mica]

the issue with that is exactly what you are saying makes it not an issue, cloudflare is FOR WEBSITES NOT GAMES

[indigo wadi]

"it's an easy win for politicians" does not do him favours

[polar sandal]

I've said this several times, an initiative is not a law proposal. An FAQ reveals the organisers' intentions, which the European Commission already knows about.

[polar ingot]

I am confused, based on my understanding, can companies brick the game whenever they want. Scenerio: I buy the game for $110. A week later they brick it. Is that not possible?

[buoyant arrow]

He won't have one. At least not an extensive onw. He (understandably) doesn't mess with stuff like this. Not his wheelhouse.

[zenith summit]

I don't think enough people care about the issue at this time though, even if Thor had put his full weight behind it it would likely have still failed

[indigo wadi]

Except that it cannot be included in the initiative, so the FAQ is a dead section

[high ember]

yeah
so how would they have the relevant information?

[wary lotus]

Depends on the contract - but people could force a refund.

[sterile nexus]

yes but you can make tools to stop DDoS attacks that fits your infrastracture for you game if your understand netcode at all

[indigo wadi]

Ahh gotcha. I figured since Cohn was a dev he'd have input.

[wary lotus]

Bruh - make that tool.
You will become an overnight Billionaire.

I am serious - DDoS protection is not easy

[wary drift]

Okay, let me just break down a couple of things you established in your argument so far:

1. The European Commission is filled with good acting lawmakers who are going to make good laws if they can.
2. The European Commission is already aware of this, including the FAQ and the specifics laid out there.

So, what is the issue?
If those two things you presume to be true are in fact true, then this ECI passing is entirely irrelevant, because said good acting lawmakers already are aware of the issue, and will do their best to attain further counsel and pass laws. (Which is kind of what I suggested before is going to happen anyway.)

[jovial sandal]

Counterpoint: FFXIV's persistent DDoS attacks

[indigo wadi]

Oky so how do you stop 100000k hits on an authentication/login server then?

[high ember]

true
honestly I only heard about it when Thor was talking about it

[lunar moth]

A "website" and a "game" server fulfil two ENTIRELY different purposes - all this means is that you understand the implications of it, but you haven't thought about what it means for the gameplay experience.

"Lag" on a website means "it loads slower", "lag" for a game means "I don't want to play this anymore, this isn't fun - I'm going to refund the game/stop supporting the developer."

I don't know the exact details, but just something as simple as to how 'lag' impacts the experience of accessing a website versus a game are WORLD's apart from one and another.

[white mica]

on mutliple servers at the same time*

[polar sandal]

ok? except the EU knows about the website and if the organisers are misleading people, the organisers could potentially be sued

[indigo wadi]

WoW Has that and yet, still gets DDoSd, so not an answer.

[jolly sky]

All I'm seeing here is when someone provides a very well thought out extrapolation of what could likely could happen if SKG went into effect, some people just bring out "Well Thor didn't read the thing properly" without replying to that well thought out future possibility

[polar sandal]

you can't just state stuff willy-nilly on a website linking to an initiative

[polar ingot]

If the earlier scenerio is that other people can monetize my server, why can't they make a rule against that specifically?

[polar sandal]

it doesn't work like that

[indigo wadi]

My understanding is only the initiative is presented, nothing beyond that.

[zenith summit]

we are basically waiting on Nintendo to go full villain mode before a legal framework is going to be sought

[white mica]

no thats exactly what i was saying, how do you deal with it when its happening to multiple servers at the same time, i was adding to the issue

[polar sandal]

the actual initiative is vague for a reason, and it's to allow for room for changes

[sterile nexus]

this 100%

[indigo wadi]

Yet other initiatives are not vague.

[polar ingot]

Apparently they became villians the moment the ceo changed to a buisnessman

[indigo wadi]

BOWSER!!!!!!

[fluid dome]

AAA is always in villain mode, it's just differing levels of saturday morning moustache twirling cartoon villainy atp

[jolly sky]

And the "It's vague so it can allow room for changes"

And which is also a massive problem

[polar sandal]

the ECI getting a million signatures (and meeting requirements from at least 7 countries) would legally force the European Commission to consider the matter, not just air the idea. An ECI is the most powerful avenue for addressing the issue.

[buoyant arrow]

Like the big players won't lobby the shit outta the process to make the whole thing work out in their favour.

[round bolt]

Happens all the time sadly

Will probably happen when Gabe newell dies

[lunar moth]

This is exactly the case.
The same reason why someone earlier said that why Thor was being targeted is because it is driving traffic to Scott's video.

All of this is just performative trolling in order to get views and exposure, which ... again, Scott talks about in the video when he talked about "I could try to reach out to larger YouTubers but I don't know how."
So... he did the same thing as the Classic WoW trolls did; force the issue and create a massive amount of performative trolling to get views driven their way.

[indigo wadi]

https://citizens-initiative-forum.europa.eu/document/stop-finning-stop-trade_en#signature-collection-and-verification-process This seems more specific than SKGs

[buoyant arrow]

Gabe must have contingencies in place at this point.

[round bolt]

Id hope so

[wary lotus]

I'll miss Steam

[fluid dome]

Gabe at that point will invent a method of transferring his consciousness into SteamOS

[round bolt]

portal core

[jolly sky]

I was literally going to bring up your posts as an example that no one has provided any decent rebuttal for, other than saying

"The Initiative is intentionally vague" or "Thor didn't read it properly" etc

[fluid dome]

Who is this Scott

[polar sandal]

i've repeated several times by now

an initiative is not a law proposal and can be vague, because the initiative is not what goes into law

[buoyant arrow]

Sure it can be vague.

[nova bough]

oh hey the plot for cyberpunk 2077

[buoyant arrow]

Doesn't help it though. Least in my opinion.

[indigo wadi]

Being vague does not help. It has to be specific in it's aims

[polar sandal]

the point is to start negotiations about an issue, NOT to pass a single law

[jovial sandal]

and yet, initiatives that have passed have been specific

[polar sandal]

it literally is

the aim is simple

[wary lotus]

SKG has like 500k people.
I doubt it can get enough.

[fluid dome]

I haven't even played the game, is the story that predictable lmao?

[indigo wadi]

where is that even? Cause it ain't listed on the website

[lunar moth]

Of course. Most initiatives are specific as they deal with very specific issues. SKG doesn't.

Looking at initiatives that has passed over the years they have clear goals such as "providing clean water."
And then there's ones that has passed but weren't turned into law because the EU didn't view them as having a basis in existing EU law or the like.

[polar sandal]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en# the initiative even states specifically what laws it wants to invoke

[jolly sky]

It doesn't matter if it's intentionally vague, there have been multiple posts that go into detail about the future problems of what such an Initiative could very easily cause, and yet you just come back to repeating that, rather than answer the questions

[buoyant arrow]

I'm still so weirded out by it specifically singleing out publishers.

[nova bough]

it has multiple endings, but the plot is around it, yeah. and one of the endings is just that.

[polar sandal]

We wish to invoke Article 17 §1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union
We also invoke Title XV of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU)[EUR-Lex - 12012E/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex (europa.eu)] and the following TFEU Articles as our justification for and the Union’s imperative to respond to this initiative:
Article 169 – Per §1 (...)
Article 12 (...)
Article 114, §3 (...)

it's all stated there

[fluid dome]

I'd play it but I'm on PS4 and I fear my machine would self terminate

[sterile nexus]

Oh i get it now, you think this thing a ton of people genuinely care about is some big joke and they're all trolling. you make sense to me now 🙂

[jolly sky]

The Initiative is trying to simplify something that is inherently not simple at all

[nova bough]

i havent played the expansion, but i personally found the endings for 2077 to be somewhere between the "bad" ending to bittersweet

[indigo wadi]

Ya, this literally right here, would not be specific enough

[polar sandal]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en# it is right here at the official europa.eu EU website, along with the European Commission's decision: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32024D1824

[fluid dome]

I miss when games shipped in a complete state and didn't need a day one patch or expansions and just worked

[indigo wadi]

same thing on the page you linked

[nova bough]

well...yes and no. see speedrunnig where they showcase bugs that never got fixed

[indigo wadi]

That's pretty much the point I feel

[polar sandal]

that is specific enough for an initiative, the European Commission is not stupid and they decided it to be accepted for a reason

[fluid dome]

I'm also on a quest to play SH2 but I wanna buy physical and I'd rather not sail the seven seas

[polar sandal]

I've even asked several lawyers I know personally

[indigo wadi]

Clearly not if other initiatives are specific enough to garner the signatures required.

[lunar moth]

... I'm literally looking at a list of other initiatives that has passed and most of 'em have in the ballpark of 1.5-2 million signatures.

You have a bunch of people doing performative trolling, because that's what you are doing. I have explained all of these things using both real examples and hypothetical ones to demonstrate the issues, and you are unable to engage with any of 'em. This is why I call this performative trolling, because it is.

[buoyant arrow]

Okay, but that doesn't reassure me whatsoever

[jolly sky]

I'd like to see you respond to this, what would be a very likely scenario at the end goal;

#streamchat message

[honest sage]

The DLC is miles better than the base game IMO. It is so good. This is from someone who thought the base game was pretty mediocre

[indigo wadi]

oh so this is a "trust me bro" type deal?

[nova bough]

maybe ill pick it up then sometime

[indigo wadi]

I'm still needign to go through other endings

[fluid dome]

Brother's Uncle's Best Friend works at Nintendo, bro, trust me

[indigo wadi]

Khronos, who used to work in Law has echoed the same concerns as Thor has, and he is EU

[white mica]

honestly despite forming my own opinion this is what makes me take the side against it in its current state the most, someone WHO PRATICED LAW IN THE EU had concerns

[fluid dome]

Tbh with u, I do find the industry plant comments by some people lately to be deeply funny

[white mica]

with proof

[fluid dome]

This entire situation is one big meme

[nova bough]

industry plants i find to be a bit funny. sure, its theoretically possible they're a plant, but its far more likely they just had an opinion that people disagree with

[indigo wadi]

people calling Thor an industry plant to be specific

[wary drift]

One thing that I don't think got brought up before, but is another can of worms, is how this would affect evolving games?

Think of something like Stellaris. While in Stellaris' case, the developers set it on Steam so you can download old patch versions, there is no denying that Stellaris is a fundamentally different game now with its recent 4.0 patch than it was at 1.0, with completely different core mechanics and more.
With indie devs, this might mean you'd need to make all previous patches available which could be untennable without corporate (probably Steam) support, lest big corporations just release an end of life patch that changes the game completely, and then leave that version available for access.

[elder scaffold]

Ive seen people say that thor is against it because he is making a live service game himself and 'it would be affected'

[fluid dome]

Every time YouTube tells me a video on pirate software has been uploaded, I look in the notifications and it's just ppl sticking their wick in when it has f all to do with them

[earnest mirage]

it's not, but it's what people see when they are interested in this.
If the markup looks odd, and context is written in a way people don't like. Then change it! It doesn't matter if any lawyer tells you "this is good", what matters is getting the audience hooked into signing your petition.

And yes is can be vague, but this is too much. A lot of others beside thor have pointed this out and ross constantly ignoring it. Maybe this is part of the issue, who knows 🤷

And i don't care about anything said outside of the paper. If something else is important, then at least link it. If not i don't care. And i read the paper, it makes me feel bad, so i don't want to be a part of this.

[jolly sky]

A meme that is provoking massive amounts of hatred, toxicity, death threats and doxxing for one person, because of a bunch of "One-Guys" that have a fundamental misunderstanding of highly likely future problems with a poorly written Initiative

[buoyant arrow]

Again, the need to define "playable"

[indigo wadi]

Yeah, also good points here as well.

[nova bough]

yeah. i kept it genralized because ive seen simular stuff in fintech, specifically around gamestop meme stuff. no the industry is not out to keep them down, the people on the backend just want to stay out of the news as much as possible.

[indigo wadi]

Pitchforks and all that

[jolly sky]

Lmao which he isn't in the slightest

[elder scaffold]

I didnt know Heartbound was a live service game ;o

[indigo wadi]

Thor agrees with the idea, but not this implementation of it

[nova bough]

i also heard the demo is $30

[buoyant arrow]

They might be referring to Blockgame

Which is not monetized whatsoever

[elder scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/buy-the-demo-piratesoftware-thor-gif-2965959134657331482

[jolly sky]

And the future cause and effect it could very easily bring

[fluid dome]

Pretty sure people have a lot more important things to deal with in the current climate than worrying if stinky publishers will take away your games from 2013 ngl 💀

[wary drift]

Previously it was brought up that some people thought Rivals of Aether 2 was always online, only for it to be shot down when someone tested it and it ran fine while offline.

[indigo wadi]

It's almost like he knows what he's talking about

[high ember]

no it's $200 a month

[buoyant arrow]

Ah, okay. Thor is also not making that game, he just works for the publisher, offbrand, right?

[indigo wadi]

Right

[wary drift]

I believe so

[jolly sky]

Correct

[indigo wadi]

he's the director of...

what was it?

direction?

can't remember

[buoyant arrow]

I know he's in there to make sure the devs get fair contracts, by his own statement

[indigo wadi]

ya

[polar sandal]

that means that a game is designed to have an expiration date.
That's literally not what the initiative aims to do, it is clearly stated in plain language in the initiative itself: "Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.". This does not mean that the videogame must have an expiration date, it just means that the videogame must be in a reasonably functional state after the sunset of the game, which is allowed to be indetermined.

"We wish to invoke Article 17 §1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union [EUR-Lex - 12012P/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex (europa.eu)]" - "No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss." What they state is: "This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied, at the core of this Initiative." However, what they state is "Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.". They do not aim to have the publishers provide an expiration date. Instead, they must either keep it in a reasonably functional state OR provide an expiration date, in order to comply with Article 17 §1.

[jolly sky]

You didn't read the whole thing and it shows

[indigo wadi]

but what is a reasonably functional state?

[jolly sky]

You got hung up on one point

[polar sandal]

nope, I've read it

[jolly sky]

Then come back with something that replies to it, in its entirety

[indigo wadi]

There's also the fact that game ToS nowadays have outright stated "you agree that this is a license and you do not own it"

[buoyant arrow]

I see the issue that this entire statement hinges on the game being sold. Sellers are just gonna go "but is license" and call it a day.

[high ember]

forget live service games, i'm gonna make a dead hindrance game

when you try to play it it explodes your computer and also it's really annoying to download and install

[polar sandal]

In order to comply with Article 17 §1, the publisher would have to do one of two things:

1. Keep the game functional in a reasonably functional (playable) state.
2. Provide an expiration date for the game.

[jolly sky]

That doesn't answer Argentums point at all

[white mica]

so they want games to provide an exporation date as no studio in their right mind is going to keep spending money to keep a game in a functional state forever

[indigo wadi]

Exactly

[fluid dome]

You keep saying that but you're not telling us what functional means

[indigo wadi]

but if consumers don't own the game, then what? There's no compelling of anything

[high ember]

honestly could be fun
making the download process the actual game, and then it deletes itself

[polar sandal]

it's vague for a reason. Just like how I said earlier, "reasonable suspicion" in a police context. With videogames, "reasonably functional" is complicated and, in order to be correctly implemented, will require actual lawmakers. Because the ECI is an initiative and not a law proposal, it doesn't have to be as specific like a law proposal does.

[jolly sky]

Again you keep repeating this but offering nothing else

[white mica]

^

[buoyant arrow]

You're just hammering home "intent", nothing you have said attempts to address our concerns.

[fluid dome]

It being vague is the issue

[indigo wadi]

intent doesn't mean anything when whats presented is vague as heck

[polar sandal]

what am I supposed to offer? again, an ECI is NOT a law proposal, making the vagueness okay.

[indigo wadi]

no it doesn't

[polar sandal]

the point of the ECI is to start negotiations

[buoyant arrow]

I disagree

[jolly sky]

You're meant to bring more to the table, which SKG doesn't, and cannot answer so you just keep going back to it

[buoyant arrow]

Negotiation should be started on solid footing, with concice goals

[indigo wadi]

if something is so vague, it's not going to start anything. It needs a specific launching point which SKG does not provide

[polar sandal]

the ECI describes what the initiative is aiming to achieve: the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.

[jolly sky]

Multiple times people here have had thought out, very detailed points against it, and yet you cannot answer them back with anything of substance

[fluid dome]

You can't just be vague about something that will have a ripple effect on a multi billion dollar industry tf 💀

[polar sandal]

it is not a law proposal

[buoyant arrow]

loop
goto loop

[earnest mirage]

no, the ECI is like your front yard that should get people interested in this topic!

[jolly sky]

But it will be

well

[buoyant arrow]

Might be

[polar sandal]

It will be more specific when it is a law proposal, because lawmakers will have worked on the problem and the European Commission will have looked into it.

[jolly sky]

It won't now but if it went through, it would have become one

[fluid dome]

Yes but we're asking you specifically, to specify, because you keep mentioning it and it's really vague

[indigo wadi]

but it should be more specific NOW

[buoyant arrow]

Which implies trust and goodwill with the lawmakers. Which have been stated by one of the most ardent supporters of the initiative to be "just out for easy votes" and "easy to convince cause they don't know anything about it"

I'm just not on board with that

[polar sandal]

that part of one of the videos was a half-joke, Ross stated it himself

[indigo wadi]

which are 2 terrible takes and insulting lawmakers is a sure fire way to have them work against you

[fluid dome]

Me omw to convince a jury of my peers I didn't commit a crime bc it'll be easy to convince them bc they don't know anything about law

[buoyant arrow]

Just a prank bro

[indigo wadi]

and that just shows that Ross shouldn't have been handling this. Making half-assed jokes in a matter he considers serious is incredibly misguided

[polar sandal]

I agree that he shouldn't have made those jokes, but the initiative is still perfectly valid and makes sense.

[white mica]

in the world of politics and lawmaking there is no such things as jokes, every word, every action in your entire existence is taken into account. you say something is a joke and they look at the fact you are willing to make that kind of joke to mean you somewhat actually think that. too far too late to call it a joke

[jolly sky]

#streamchat message

Except its not

What happens when this happens under the "Initiative"

[sterile nexus]

Okay this will be the last from me as I have things to get done (i know you're excited I'll be gone 🙂 ). Ill engage with your hypothetical from earlier and entertain it to its end. My example of release server software is one example of an end of life plan and not anything that will be dictated by law. you wuld be your own source of governance as the developer of your potato farming MMO. so at launch you could dictate ANY END OF LIFE PLAN YOU SEE FIT. anything. so long as you have one and the consumer is informed of it. that is the SKG goal. inform the consumer one way or another, and ideally the free market will take in that information and go forth with knowledge.

So you could implement an end of life plan that states: "Im an indie dev and cant support this if it becomes non profitable. the game would end service. that may change if we grow.". Im certain there will be some standard legalese that develops in the zeitgeist of the legal systems that cater to whatever laws come from SKG should it pass, as those will likely get adopted by most Indie devs and corporations to a degree (everyone already does this, no devs are also lawyers) that itemizes out levels of success and reasonable EoL plans at those stages.

Now you arent beholden to releases your IP and the consumer is informed that you wont be doing so. for a consumer looking at this that would likely seem quite reasonable. If a Mega Corporation adopted language similar to this the average consumer might take issue and refuse to purchase. different interpretations for different situations.

I fully expect a retort in the form of "well then this changes nothing and affects nothing". no it doesn't, it requires the customer to be informed of intent at the outset, and establishes a legal foothold on which a structure of case law and reform can be built to better the consumers experience in the games industry.

Hope this was a fun read and offered some outside perspective even if you think I'm full of it 🙂

[fluid dome]

The initiative really wasn't that strong to begin if the guy trying to push it through is giving up on it so soon...

[jolly sky]

Yes please, just call us idiots instead of providing a good faith argument

Like what we've all been doing

"Lets just push this through, I'm sure there will be no problems whatsoever"

Yea ok

[indigo wadi]

great way to start a convo

[jolly prism]

He never said that the initiative was "just out for easy votes" and "easy to convince...". These points were just brought up as potential political "wins". The logic behind the initiative was explained in way more detail. You are not doing anyone any favours by misrepresenting facts (again) - which is the whole reason Thor is in this mess now.

[jolly sky]

Lmao Vivien said that and dipped

Weak

Couldn't handle bringing more to the conversation

[indigo wadi]

imagine coming in just to throw insults. More S-Slinging

[buoyant arrow]

I never said that he said that that is what the initiavie is about. I take issue with those statements having been made at all while trying to get that initiative through. It's foolish.

[jolly sky]

Do you want to bring anything to the conversation, or are you content just throwing shit from the sidelines?

[white mica]

LMFAO

deleted

[fluid dome]

As my dad was a fan of saying:

"If I wanted the monkey to speak, I'd throw peanuts."

[indigo wadi]

lol

[jolly sky]

Well, looks like they wont be throwing anything more lmao

Thanks whoever was responsible for those shots

[indigo wadi]

he literally said that this would of been an easy win for politicians.

[blissful imp]

Does this count as talking about politics btw

[indigo wadi]

and it doesn't matter if he was joking about it. It's in bad taste.

[hazy storm]

As someone who has worked in B2B software the implications for business solutions is very concerning. If the movement should pass as currently written and become law (big if) its not too far of a stretch for a disgruntled business customer to try and make it apply to SaaS businesses as well, which have for wider cost, service, and security implications

[jolly sky]

An easy "win" for politicians often ends up and lose situation for us. Because if its easy to pass, its not well thought out

[indigo wadi]

No because it's about an initiative

[opaque raven]

In all seriousness, I decided to create the PKV initiative, Please Kill Videogames. I know that we will lose good things along the way but on the bright side League of Legends will cease to exist forever, which is a fair price to pay for sure.

[white mica]

considering the mods have been talking with us too i would assume they are fine with it

[jolly prism]

Yes. However the implication of the previous message was, that the entire initiative was created just because it was going to be an easy win. Ignoring all the other (more complex) logic behind it.

[buoyant arrow]

That could be ridiculously devastating

[nova bough]

i tried bringing this up earlier. it messes with corporate licensing as a whole; or lays the ground to make a huge mess of things

[indigo wadi]

Well that's even worse. No wonder the initiative has no legs to stand on

[jolly sky]

Yep! And while I imagine B2B software is very branched out and detailed, the whole backend for video games is several magnitudes moreso

[gentle mortar]

"he's the director of... direction?"
Ah yes, he's the director of directing, a floor is made out of floor.
He's a director of strategy for offbrand games

[white mica]

maybe dumb question what are SaaS businesses?

[sacred junco]

software as a service

[nova bough]

Software as a service

[white mica]

ah TY

[indigo wadi]

STRATEGY!! Ty LOl

I coudln't remember the title specifically

[buoyant arrow]

Adobe, MS Office are SaaS I think

[steep surge]

Henlo, Dan
How are you doing?

[indigo wadi]

Good morning OIR

[gentle mortar]

you're welcome ^^

[steep surge]

Henlo!

[indigo wadi]

floor is made out of floor is such a good meme

[gentle mortar]

it is

[polar sandal]

I've seen this, and the initiative literally addresses that problem, what you sent is pretty much a quote from Thor. To comply under Article 17 §1, the publisher would have to either make the game playable in a reasonably functional state (what "reasonably functional" means would be decided by the European Commission), OR provide an expiration date. This is stated in the initiative, it's just that some people seem to be misinterpreting it. This is already sort-of law in the EU, except it's not really applying explicitly to videogames. Stop Destroying Videogames (the official name of the initiative) is aiming to invoke Article 17 §1, along with various other parts relating to the consumer protection laws in the EU.

As for where it is stated:
In the Objectives section: "Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher." and Annex: We wish to invoke Article 17 §1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union [EUR-Lex - 12012P/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex (europa.eu)] – “No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss.”– This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied, at the core of this Initiative.

The thing with Article 17 §1 and these requirements is that it is not an AND, in order to comply, you must either provide a determined amount of time after the point of sale when the game expires, OR after expiration, keep the game in a reasonably functional state.
This refers to the "No one may be deprived" part of the sentence.

[nova bough]

even other things you dont think of. like microsoft auth and svip (2fa solutions) are saas for the company that uses them. they require a license.

[polar sandal]

A user is being deprived of the game if the game is no longer in a reasonably functional state for them.

[jolly sky]

This wasn't even about the functional state of games

[blissful imp]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-long-list-list-infinite-list-gif-7915371

[polar sandal]

What "reasonably functional" means will be defined at the point which a law proposal is made.

[jolly sky]

Once again, you didn't read it entirely

[indigo wadi]

if it's being misinterpreted, then it's too vague and requries more specificity

[sterile nexus]

I know i said I was leaving (and i am) but this is actually a really good counterpoint. Guardrails on the laws that arise from the initiative consideration should be put in place to focus this squarely on recreational softwares or "video games" by a legal definition. but that doesnt come into the equation inside of an intiative in a more specific capacity than already described. its up to the EUC to draft good law that doesnt overreach and a process already exists to ensure that happens

[buoyant arrow]

Are video games legally defined? Genuine question

[jolly sky]

This wasn't about "Reasonable functioning"

This was about what happens when a game is forcibly taken offline as a result of what SKG wants to propose, and the developer is shafted by having to give up its IP and Copyright

[nova bough]

i think introducing the laws lays the groundwork to change everything else.

[serene valley]

Okay so all companies stick an expiration date on games and never provide anything, boom complied and games die way before they're done because a law violation would be more costly

[buoyant arrow]

I know germany a bunch of years ago finally agreed to put video games under the legal art umbrella in some way, but I'm not sure there's a full legal definition of a video game

[blissful imp]

its modern internet. no one reads anything in full these days...

tbh this whole thing is just dumb modern internet bullsht.

[fluid dome]

Assuming that the lawmakers create laws around it, there is actually no guarantee that the games would be maintained in a playable state by the consumer after the developers leave it functional on their end.

A carpenter can't just build a table for someone and expect the consumer to know the proper woodworking skills to maintain it themselves.

Majority of consumers who buy videogames are casual gamers who don't give af about end of life or playable states or whatever tf else. They're more likely to play the thing for its intended period and move on to the next available thing when released.

Modding communities already do the work devs are too lazy to do (Bethesda are big examples of this), and also there are decades old games that require extensive fan patches to even run on current hardware.

This is also not including the fact that games released currently don't even ship fully functional and require and in some cases demand fans to crack the game and fix it themselves (Tomb Raider remastered trilogy)

[sterile nexus]

they can be ,yes. anything can be defined and usually is defined quite exactly in law language. but that is much more strict language that isnt suited to a plain speech initiative outline.

[jolly sky]

@polar sandal “No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss.”

This is impossible to uphold due to current IP and Copyright law with games that are hosted on servers owned by the Developer/Company, whether they be big or small

[indigo wadi]

"Modding communities already do the work devs are too lazy to do (Bethesda are big examples of this), and also there are decades old games that require extensive fan patches to even run on current hardware." VTM Bloodlines is a perfect example of this.

[jolly sky]

@polar sandal Once again, you are not arguing the points, you're just providing the same argument over and over again when it isn't relevant

[sterile nexus]

yes! and thats partly the point. IP and copyright law is extremely overreaching and needs something to challenge it and generate legal discussion of mertits on both sides of the conversation. this is a first step towards that actually happening

[serene valley]

I would argue that in some studios Devs just don't get the time to make things work well... Ship now, worry later

[serene valley]

Experiencing similar things in regular software dev

[indigo wadi]

Certainly but this initiative isn't it

[jolly sky]

So then how do we go about protecting the small time indie devs? Currently that is handled just fine

[opaque raven]

I mean, stating that companies are "too lazy" to do something is kinda weird when you barely know how they function, specially on a business level. Could be hard to profit, could be hard to implement and maintain, a myriad of reasons could lead to this

[buoyant arrow]

Tackling IP and copyright law by just trying via videogames is really really really ambitious. Copyright and IP also affect every other medium. Book, Music, Movies etc.

[opaque raven]

It's like someone said before that "Sony doesn't like to make money or else they would have (...)"....I mean....cmon....

[indigo wadi]

I mean...Helldivers 2...

[jolly sky]

Like you can't just make SKG an "easy win" without digging into so, SO many other areas of law. Something that Ross likely didn't think about the future of

[blissful imp]

if only i had some popcorn rn while reading some of these messages.

[jolly sky]

And then that no longer makes it an "Easy Win"

[indigo wadi]

I know you're trying to be funny, but messages like this do not help with the conversation

[fluid dome]

Bethesda

[buoyant arrow]

The priority was getting PSN numbers up. Which depening on what their long term plan is might have been a good move. It just turned out not to be. Big corpoes pivot slowly

Bethesda is a case of self flanderization.

[fluid dome]

They absolutely could fix Skyrim if they wanted to in the next re release

[indigo wadi]

restricting access to game purchasing in over 100 countries somehow leads to more money? That's not how that works LOL

[fluid dome]

But they won't

Mojang could easily implement everything in a mob vote, but they won't

[sterile nexus]

they would likley be relatively unaffected by any change that could arise in IP and Copyright law from said discussion but im not omniscient. as an example: copyright law allows for an individual to retain a copyright for up to roughly 3 human lifespans? and corporations have essentially gamed it into "forever" since the law was never written to apply to entities owning copyright and Intellectual property initially. it was all geared towards human ownership and based around thier personal lifespan. Later it was heavily lobbied an contorted into what it is today. ratcheting that back is unlikely to affect indie developers unless it rolls further back past what it was initially.

[fluid dome]

Nintendo could easily make a pokemon game that doesn't feel like ass to play

But they wont

[buoyant arrow]

Not for the game, but if it worked out, for other avenues regarding PSN. Get users on board, then monetize them. Not saying it was a good plan, but it's a plan. Steam does it in a way with how they hand cuts from sales. It's more important to get people on the platform, because then they're part of your ecosystem and can be monetized.

[blissful imp]

i'm just losing my mind...

[sterile nexus]

just a reminder that an intiative isnt ever the letter of the law. its a petition for them to read it, understand the desire of the people and then decide if they draft law based on the conveyed desire of the people

[jolly sky]

Yes, granted I understand that. But the objective of SKG, if some its points go through as is, literally cause Small time devs that are part of the Live-Service genre to lose access to their games from an IP and Copyright law perspective

[buoyant arrow]

I think it's been made clear that the concern are the unintended potential consequences, not the claimed actual goals of the initiative.

[indigo wadi]

and if something is so vague that it can be picked apart or be misinterpreted, then the issue lies in the initiative being worded pporly

[jolly sky]

In other words, it won't be their game anymore and they lose all access to its further development, or owning of its property

All the art, the models, the coding, none of it would be theirs anymore

[opaque raven]

Have you seen their IR?

[buoyant arrow]

They might not be able to come back to a game that's arguably been "abandoned" and pick it back up to finish it

Cause that could alter the "playable state" it was left in

[jolly sky]

And not even through just being abandoned. Like in a possible situation in a previous comment, it could be forced to go offline either through lack of playerbase, or DDOS'ing of its own server that make no longer monetarily viable to keep up with

[sterile nexus]

it really wouldn't though, it doesn't divest them of ownership. the golden version of this initiative asks that games be left playable. not that IP be forked over to public domain. the law can account for the developer retaining owenership of thier assets whilst putting them out into the world. Read through the legalese of any stock photography website. essentially" you can use the photo you buy in this exact way and in no other derivitive way" in most cases. thats really simple to control. (edit: and I should note there are HEAVY penalties for violating this.)

[thick ledge]

Requiring devs keep a game on a playable state in perpetuity means for every game released they have to keep a skeleton crew to make sure it's forward compatible with new OS indefinitely

Many many old games currently do not work without a fan patch

Because of that

[flat moat]

Yes, creating a legacy system backlog

[earnest mirage]

or when hardware accelerations have been deprecated, like PhysX.

[buoyant arrow]

Well, to be fair, that issue could be resolved by requiring the game to be "playable" (whatever that'll mean) at the time of sunsetting the software.

[thick ledge]

The costs of this build up

[jolly sky]

But allowing people to host their own server completely seperate from the Developer, (which is one of the Goals of SKG) is literally handing over the keys to their game, and thus the IP and its Copyrighted works

[thick ledge]

And could destroy a small company

There's tons of edge cases the way things are worded now that arnt accounted for

[buoyant arrow]

Can't remember which is what, but an undefended copyright is void after some time

[white mica]

my discord just confused me, it didnt say any new messages were in the channel when i tabbed back in it was was stuck scrolled up with a message perfectly alligned with the text bar as if it was the most recent message, its only now that i looked at the scroll bar did i notice there were actually new messages

[buoyant arrow]

If you just let someone distribute a work that is yours, they may be able to build a case for new ownership

[jolly sky]

Which will happen because it costs a LOT of money to defend said copyright, which means the developer would be forced to give it up

[white mica]

i thought poeople were typing like a story or something

[earnest mirage]

and giving out the binaries are not the solution, because you are not allowed to deconstruct of modify them. So you would have to create a vm or other shenanigans to maybe make it work.

[fluid dome]

So it's basically a legal minefield

[flat moat]

but then that would need to be specified as result of the system requirements, working state is guaranteed and further versions are likely not supported unless the system requirements were updated during the game lifespan

[buoyant arrow]

Very easy to potentially exploit by skilled lawyers.

[flat moat]

Pretty much, and good legal professionals are very expensive

[sterile nexus]

yes but "when they decide they are done with it and don't wanna run it themselves anymore. and "host their own server" is one projected solution used as a simple correlary. they could make it into a local hosted server dummyware that allows it to run by itself without the online portion of the experience. its a downgrade sure but you can still experience it. and if you really wanted you could toss in fake "friends" you can invite for multiplayer content, similar to that recently made "offline MMO" or similar to Phantasy Star Online 2's single player campaign.

[buoyant arrow]

Which would again put the biggest levers in the hands of big corpos

[indigo wadi]

Just look at the discussion of t his over the last 2 days. Ain't no way the initiative would be able to solve this.

[thick ledge]

I release a game featuring my character John gunguy, I sunset my service but am forced by law to give you all my code when I sunset, you host server for my game featuring John gunguy, it takes me a long time to release a new game in the series and in that time you file a copywrite claim on my character because it's featured in your fan server

[jolly sky]

A legal minefield which was really not put into consideration when the Initiative got proposed

[indigo wadi]

the talks would take YEARS

[fluid dome]

Idk what the solution is but SKG isn't it

[indigo wadi]

if there's even a ground to land on

[thick ledge]

There's SOME precedent that you could win that

[sterile nexus]

and "completely seperate form the developer" is injected context, not in the letter of SKG

[fluid dome]

Sometimes the best solution is to do nothing

[wet storm]

I don't trust mimes

They commit unspeakable crimes

[thick ledge]

Who does tbh

Evil creatures

[buoyant arrow]

The SKG barely mentions developers. It only goes on about publishers, who sometimes don't even have meaningful technical access.

[indigo wadi]

Like the current landscape kind of sucks, but it's better than the potential terribleness of SKG

[fluid dome]

The grass is not always greener on the other side type deal

[indigo wadi]

Like a first step would be to address licensing vs ownership of video games

[buoyant arrow]

The current landscapes needs change for sure.

[thick ledge]

Buy indie Pog

[flat moat]

It's better to make it an industry standard and not force it legally

IE work and make it happen in spaces, if it takes off it takes off

[indigo wadi]

malicious lawness is def a thing and that could be bad for the video game industry, which already has a bad image

[buoyant arrow]

At the very least force clear indication of what kind purchase is made. Make clear that you buy a license as opposed to "the game".

[fluid dome]

Indie has its own issues tbh, every part of the industry does

[indigo wadi]

Outside of the ToS? Absolutely

[thick ledge]

I'd be totally for a cigarette style warning on game pages about the game eventually sunsetting

"This game will eventually close"

[flat moat]

Yeah, which is why I'd rather the SKG crowd work in a live service environment and try make it work first before revisiting the petition

[thick ledge]

Then consumers can make thier own choice

[indigo wadi]

This is just instinctual for mmos ain't it?

[buoyant arrow]

I could be on board with that.

[thick ledge]

People are stupid

[buoyant arrow]

Do not assume the user is informed.

[thick ledge]

Lol

[white mica]

thor has been summoned

[minor nymph]

The general internet doesn't seem to care about what the initiative is actually doing. It does care about bashing the fuck out of me and calling me a liar.

The videos I put out 10 months ago are me poking holes in the initiative and saying I would not support it as such. Leaving a game in a "playable state" is not possible with the grand majority of games unless you demand the the server binaries to run them. Except the initiative says it doesn't want those. But the game has to be in a playable state. Ok.

[indigo wadi]

Like don't get me wrong. I applaud Ross' attempt but it's completely misguided and the initial motivations are misplaced

[indigo wadi]

Not informed no, but like, when looking at mmos specifically, one has to assume it will sunset eventually just naturally

[hazy storm]

I've been following the SKG issue from the beginning and currently the biggest voices from their side of the conversation say a variant of

• devs are only shutting down games because they're lazy/greedy/ incompetent
• the courts will work out the details and we trust them to make the right calls (lol)
• nobody will take advantage of this law to do bad things because why would they

[indigo wadi]

Question about Heartbound actually. If played offline, does it still track achievement progress?

[hazy storm]

All are based on really bad assumptions of human nature

[buoyant arrow]

I mean, yeah, I would agree for myself, but I've had friends who play MMOs religiously to whom I had to explain why some of them weren't around anymore.

[buoyant arrow]

It's frankly baffling

[sterile nexus]

informed people know this. uninformed people dont. SKG would like it put on the purchase medium so everyone is informed.

[indigo wadi]

Wow, so they assumed that mmos would last forever?

[minor nymph]

Steam Offline Mode caches achievement progress but a number of achievements would not work.

[indigo wadi]

Gotcha

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, they weren'T technically savvy, so I had to explain to them how they worked. Not that I knew that well back then myself, but yeah.

[indigo wadi]

Wow

[minor nymph]

You do realize I said that would be a good compromise in my videos right? SKG did not ask for that. They want games in a "functional playable state" at sunset.

[indigo wadi]

maybe i've been playing WoW for too long but i just assumed that was just a natural thing ppl knew.

[jolly sky]

Precisely this. What SKG's end goal is, would end up meaning the developer has to give up the IP and Copyright of their own game. But they also said that don't want that. You can't have it both ways, one action ends up with the other

[buoyant arrow]

It happens. It's familiarity blindness. It's why super mega grandmasters of a thing are sometimes the worst to teach newcomers. Too many assumptions of what is common knowledge. I've had to thing about that a lot when friends asked me to "teach them videogames" and I had no clue how to

[indigo wadi]

Fair

[sterile nexus]

to my understanding, SKG demands some kind of label on the purchase medium regarding an end of life plan for consumers to make an informed decision, and while their golden version of this is a functional playable state they aren't dictating the explicit plans.

[indigo wadi]

That...doesn't seem to be what SKG is aiming for? if it is, again, it's poorly worded.

[buoyant arrow]

I say this with all the kindness I can muster, but everytime someones argues for SKG in here they have different arguments. It's vague. Even supporters support it differently.

[flat moat]

Thing is, they've set the expectation already. They know where they want to go before they can put even one foot on the ground

[fluid dome]

I may be wrong about this but I am pretty sure most storefronts already do include a little notice about you purchasing a license to play the game, right? Though that may be different from "we will be closing this game at an undetermined period"

[zenith summit]

It depends on how "playable state" is interpreted and it has a lot of overlaps with right to repair. I don't think anyone in electronics repair expects products to be made so stuff can be repaired by anyone, they mainly want to stop companies putting blocks in place to prevent any repair at all either by requiring specialised tools or blocking access to replacement parts altogether. In this case skg want new games to be produced in a way where components that can not be shared can simply be switched off, leaving the rest of it as it is. If people can reverse engineer stuff to make servers with no help, it goes against the point of it being impossible for the developers themselves to design it that way in the first place.

[buoyant arrow]

I agree with propers labeling in storefronts even. But that should be it own seperate initiative

[minor nymph]

Its literally their opening demand

[jolly sky]

If SKG's Initiative was purely about simply allowing an online authorisation based, single player game to be ran once the Auth servers stop running, it would have been a slam dunk

That would have gotten almost universal praise

[flat moat]

Publishers also don't always host the servers, developers do in most cases

[buoyant arrow]

Also, and I repeat myself, weirdly stuck on only referring to publishers in the documents, who sometimes don't even have access to the technical rescources to fulfll these requirements

[minor nymph]

This.

[indigo wadi]

I keep pointing this out but it seems to fall on blind eyes

[fluid dome]

Everyone failing the perception check

[minor nymph]

It just shows me that nobody actually watched my videos on this and just saw Ross Scotts and want to fling hate.

[fluid dome]

It happens

[indigo wadi]

crit fail even

[jolly sky]

Yea sorry to go back on this from our previous back and forth, I was spending some time looking for this example but then Thor brought it up;

[high ember]

i mean it's a reasonable assumption

[indigo wadi]

Also am I right in believing that the FAQ section of the initiative cannot be included when presenting the initiative?

[buoyant arrow]

Well some of them actually try to have a discussion. But you probably get it lot worse than we do.

[buoyant arrow]

Sure. I agree. But if any safety training I've been a part of has taught me anything it is to assume the mininum informedness in an enduser.

[flat moat]

That's a good question and we may need someone with ECI knowledge to check in on that

[fluid dome]

I'm also a little confused on that second point, though this might be me just not understanding but what does it mean not being connected to the publisher? Purely offline?

[buoyant arrow]

Further questions: What if there's no publisher? Is it referring to self publishing devs as publishers?

[zenith summit]

probably so nothing is required of them, they dont get any hassle about it

[jolly sky]

Like if you want to be able to run an online game from completely seperate from the publisher, that would also mean handing over the IP and Copyright of that game to every single individual, regardless of the size of the Developer

[indigo wadi]

@viscid kraken oh law daddy

[flat moat]

It's removing the dependency working relationship but the wording in this needs to be specified further

[high ember]

fair point

[indigo wadi]

I just wanna be sure i'm saying the correct stuff. I hate to make an arse of myself even though I do it on the reg

[minor nymph]

It means that the end user should have the option ot ability to run the gamd entirely without the company supporting the game with services or hardware. For an online only multiplayer game the only way you can do this is by releasing server binaries or saying you allow people to reverse engineer it thus potentially losing control of your ip.

[sterile nexus]

shit. my bad, a couple of the videos I was watching as followup twisted this around for me. but I also dont disgree with thier ideal vision of this. I understand theres complexity to providing these end of life solutions but the ecology of private WoW servers proves its a possible route even if they are way earlier than they should be in the intended life cycle of things. if blizzard decided to not support WoW as a product anymore i dont see why the game world should die off and cease to be accessible when people have built lives there in extreme cases.

[zenith summit]

ive played other old mmos with spin off servers in a much smaller capacity and they do work (ragnarok online, earth and beyond)

[cursive solar]

even tho i dont think it will reach a million, it reached 500k which is a big milestone at least 👀

[fluid dome]

Ah okay, so a very bad thing then

[flat moat]

mmm legal papacito

[jolly sky]

IIRC Private WoW servers go against their ToS

[indigo wadi]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the ideal version, what's disagreed with is this implementation of it.

[cursive solar]

20k signatures yesterday which is cool

[minor nymph]

Thats the biggest issue. None of these people actually read the initiative. I did, made a video about it, and now I'm getting dunked by people who didn't

[indigo wadi]

I was tempted to ping you earlier because the convo was being continued

[cursive solar]

oh nah im good lol

[jolly sky]

You should scroll up into the conversation to realise why its still not a good thing btw

[sterile nexus]

yes they do, and that is agreeably the correct state of things. but they also exist and are a proof of concept

[indigo wadi]

and 2 of the largest private servers are still ongoing. No idea why blizz hasn't acted against em

[wintry pond]

I support the idea of it, but the words I am reading do not add up

[cursive solar]

okay, i cant be bothered after yesterday tho tbh, so not gonna scroll up

[flat moat]

React vids doing that

[cursive solar]

just outlining a big milestone

[jolly sky]

You don't need to scroll up that far

[minor nymph]

And they are against ToS becausd they violate copyright law and can lead to issues in ownership for the parent company.

[indigo wadi]

cirticalmoist, 16 mill subs, 20k sigs...

[cursive solar]

thats good

[buoyant arrow]

Techically illegal practices are a shaky foundation to convince lawmakers with

[sterile nexus]

not trying to hate on you personally and I hope i dont come off that way. i love your content and your efforts in the Indie dev space

[cursive solar]

i do, if its from hours and hours ago, im sure people have been talking about it since

[buoyant arrow]

There are other, better, legal examples of private servers being run. City of Heroes for example.

[jolly prism]

You are not limited just to the text in the original initiative. The Commision wants and need as much information as possible about the initiative to properly consider it. That would be just the start anyway, if they then wanted to actually do something with it in a legal way there would be discussions and discussions with all kinds of people.

[jolly sky]

As has said many times before, as long as you discuss politely, you're good.

[minor nymph]

Bingo

[cursive solar]

and tbh cant bothered with the conversation, theres no convincing people

[indigo wadi]

and no, thor and ross talking wouldn't amount to anything 😛

[flat moat]

Not necessarily, people outsource their critical thinking

[cursive solar]

so im just keeping an eye on the milestone, happy that i reached 500k at least

[flat moat]

Thank you!

[cursive solar]

good one

[jolly sky]

No, because the future ramifications are absolutely terrible

[wintry pond]

also, most of this is a 10 month old response on a thing that should have changed multiple times over that time

[minor nymph]

Because what the initiative is doing is misguided and they actively don't want developer input on the subject.

[indigo wadi]

I'm in a better frame of mind today than last night

[sterile nexus]

100% agree, but the existing state of copyright law and IP law is agressively overreaching in at least my opinion. possibly others too. but i would love to see what reform to it could look like

[cursive solar]

oh shit hey thor

[cursive solar]

im not talking about it today just cause i talked about it alot yesterday btw, but just happy about the milestone

[buoyant arrow]

Wait shouldn't Thor be streaming?

Nvm

[indigo wadi]

no

it's wednesday

[buoyant arrow]

it's wednesday

[cursive solar]

also i dont hate you, im sure theres been people tho that have joined the discord and been a problem

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/ahhhh-its-wednesday-my-dudes-mirror-selfie-gif-5446149

[flat moat]

it's the midweekend, he will stream again on Friday

[cursive solar]

so im sorry about the people who just join and is a problem

[jolly sky]

Oh SHIT it is Wednesday

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah i just realized. Unemployed time dilation man. Hard to keep track of what day it is

[indigo wadi]

unless it's some super secret project he's gonna stream about, hrmmmmm

[indigo wadi]

what the eff

[white mica]

lol

[indigo wadi]

ive no idea what i just watched LOL

[cursive solar]

also, the dev outlook on the initiatve is a valid concern, but its not up to me to get devs involved, ross and thor could do that, ross maybe has done that and i just dont know

[polar sandal]

Forgot to send it in. Here's one of the clips: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDehACf4sBxfTMV4ysb1pXCGQqHMyPwH-?si=1YFJXRFj2ssGWoLX

[minor nymph]

https://youtu.be/x3jMKeg9S-s?si=dnk9dzcwChrLWyI3&t=404

[earnest mirage]

to me private wow servers are a proof why this should be decided carefully.
most servers have bad moderation, they also have massive performance issues (crashes, lags, etc.) and on top a lot of servers are hosted without a broker meaning you run basically an unsecured P2P connection and your and the servers IP is exposed.

[minor nymph]

THIS is the point

[indigo wadi]

yet it wasn't done initially like it should of

[cursive solar]

i watched it 10 months ago

[high ember]

such a mood

[minor nymph]

As said previously they are not going after the misleading consumer practice here. They are just demanding the right to play a game after sunset.

[indigo wadi]

Thor literally said he wouldn't support it because of how it's worded....

like...

[minor nymph]

Watch that section again

[cursive solar]

all im saying is i get the concern from a devs perspective, maybe ross has gotten in contact with devs, maybe he hasnt, thats not my responsibility and if he hasnt then i dont like that. thats why i support the idea of you and ross talking, maybe you guys could work together since your very knowledgable in the devs perspective, but i understand you said you didnt want to

[cursive solar]

ill give it another watch

[jolly sky]

Once again, you aren't providing anything of substance here. You're just bringing up the same points over and over again when we poke holes in the disastrous effects that SKG can bring given what it wants to happen

[indigo wadi]

it's like ppl didn't bother doing the research

[cursive solar]

yesterday i was hammering in the idea of you and him talking but i was getting alot push back of people saying thats not a good idea

[minor nymph]

This.

[hazy storm]

I find that there is a lot of people putting words in other peoples mouth

[wintry pond]

those videos are 10 months old and they are about the old version of the petition

[cursive solar]

i absolutely did, im not like the others who watch one mutahar video or 1 moistcritical video

[indigo wadi]

there's a new version?

[minor nymph]

Show me a changelog of the petition then? Give me a diff showing how it changed.

[cursive solar]

i probably come across as that cause i dont fully agree with people here

[earnest mirage]

... the ECI has never changed...

[zenith summit]

What is the general opinion on what should happen regarding switch 2 key only games once the eshop gets sunset?

[flat moat]

Why is Scott then throwing the NEW VERSION at a video talking about the OLD VERSION

Whats the logic there

[buoyant arrow]

Not sure they can change it once it's up there?

[indigo wadi]

this is the first time i'm hearing about a new version

[cursive solar]

the way i see it, both sides arent wrong, but both sides arent right either, i see what both sides are saying, i just agree with one side more

[buoyant arrow]

LIke it needs to be locked in once it's started collecting signatures, cause you could do all sorts of shenigans otherwise

[hazy storm]

They control the website. Its a simple matter to post an update with the new version

[minor nymph]

Evidence that they have?

[indigo wadi]

Did Ross even talk about a new version before yesterday?

[cursive solar]

and yes of course i believe devs should get involved, thats why i feel so strongly that thor and ross should talk

[buoyant arrow]

Well, more as in "allowed" as opposed to "able to"

[jolly sky]

Editing in a new verison of the Initiative? That does not sound right

[cursive solar]

thor is one of the biggest voices for devs

[indigo wadi]

he's an industry plant though!!!!!!

[flat moat]

Quick, someone open the history machine

[indigo wadi]

it's said on the internet, it must be true!

[cursive solar]

[minor nymph]

Alright. If the claim that the initiative was changed has been made then post evidence of such. Wayback machine shows blank pages for every change to the website. No joke.

[flat moat]

He does photosynthesize efficiently

[buoyant arrow]

I don't think they can cahnge the initiative once it's up there. You could change what the initiative is about once it's started gathering signatures. That's like fraud.

[indigo wadi]

apologize about my terseness last night. Was probably not in the right frame of mind to debate the topic but adhd wouldnt let me pull away when I sohuld of

[hazy storm]

Are there any big name devs that have come out in support of SKG? genuinely asking

[glass horizon]

I thought he was a mushroom though?

[indigo wadi]

i haven't heard of any

[buoyant arrow]

Are there mushrooms that photosynthezise?

[flat moat]

Well, he is a fun guy

[cursive solar]

but anyways, im not gonna argue my points from yesterday again, all i wanted to do was celebrate a milestone i was happy about, 500k on the eu petition is big, hope thor and ross talk, would benefit definitely ross and maybe thor

[indigo wadi]

does that make him an Ork?

[white mica]

ok isaac

[cursive solar]

havent checked, unsure

[polar sandal]

It's an initiative, not a law proposal. The European Commission will introduce compromises between the two parties if necessary when writing the actual laws. If it was a law proposal, I would absolutely agree that it is vague. However, it fundamentally is not, and is only a way to start negotiation between the two parties. Ross talked about one of the most cited portions of the initiative: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxQm7j16ApcIi346mQNyNi2c5FI6Vozt0q?si=Qpw5P4j4fF6Dapgj

[jolly prism]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en# - this is the official EU site, SKG does not "control" it in any way. You can't just change it.

[jolly sky]

Again, you're just bringing back the same points over and over again

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/dakka-tabletop-dungeoneers-discord-orcs-irks-gif-22814163

[indigo wadi]

You keep saying this but the fact of the matter is, the initiative is poorly worded, vague on purpose. That's not how you do an initiative

[buoyant arrow]

Look man, if you keep saying the same thing over and over again, without actually attempting to address our concerns, find something better to do with your time. Don't put that stress on yourself.

[fluid dome]

Gonna parrot react the next person that keeps posting the video

[cursive solar]

@minor nymph also one more thing, i dont know if you think this but just cause i dont agree with you fully, doesnt mean i dislike or hate you

[indigo wadi]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxQm7j16ApcIi346mQNyNi2c5FI6Vozt0q?si=Qpw5P4j4fF6Dapgj

[polar sandal]

the part I clipped explains why it is vague

[rose sigil]

Tbh this shouldn't have blown up the way it did, if people feel a certain way about stop killing games, post support about it, but posting support about it while tearing down someone else's take isn't the way. Its all farm honestly

[indigo wadi]

explainign why it's vague doesn't make it better.

[buoyant arrow]

I don't care why it is vague. I am worried that it is vague.

[indigo wadi]

@fluid dome oh that's what you meant by parrot react LOL

[jolly sky]

And the things that SKG wants from its proposal, fundamentally means that you're handing over the IP, and copyright to your game as a developer. But SKG says that they don't want to do that. You can't have one without the other

@polar sandal

[fluid dome]

Get parroted nerd

[indigo wadi]

haha

[white mica]

i expected something different too xD

[indigo wadi]

same

[polar sandal]

There is a character limit on initiatives and the European Commission can just dismiss details anyway.

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/spanish-no-one-expected-inquisition-gif-18096957

[polar sandal]

not to mention that details wouldn't even help

[white mica]

LMAO

[indigo wadi]

details would help? HELLO?

[buoyant arrow]

Being concise and being detailed are two diffrent, though arguably not exclusive things.

[fluid dome]

Monty Python were doing memes before memes were cool

[flat moat]

More details would help move it in a specific direction IE what end result you want

[buoyant arrow]

Monthy Pythons Holy Grail is a family film for me

[cursive solar]

https://tenor.com/view/plankton-eating-popcorn-popcorn-plankton-meme-plankton-yes-gif-18251234252356731757

[indigo wadi]

The Life of Brian

[fluid dome]

Also this one I feel captures this whole discussion

[buoyant arrow]

Also a great one

[jolly sky]

And as previously stated, wanting to be able to run an online game without ANY connections to the Publisher means handing over that IP and Copyright of the game to every single individual @polar sandal

#streamchat message

[fluid dome]

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-dead-parrot-ex-parrot-gif-24087833

[indigo wadi]

Rowan Atkinson mentioned life of brain in one of his stage bits. It ws great

[jolly prism]

You can attach files.

[polar sandal]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxKcvaOJxMhnT6Y84ZehhMia4pKnfd4WOl?si=_-EjhGf7bwLuVUto

[jolly sky]

Please dude

Use Your words

[fluid dome]

🦜

[indigo wadi]

https://youtu.be/Ut116mBuPpg 3 minute watch

[white mica]

mr bean

[polar sandal]

I've said it several times in this channel already, except no one seems to care. So I quote directly what Ross said.

[hazy storm]

Well if that case shouldn't the current initiative be withdrawn and resubmitted with the latest changes? That's how it works in every proper legal forum

Otherwise people would pass laws and just go "yeah i ACTUALLY meant this"

[cursive solar]

tbf yesterday people were just linking thors video too, doing the same thing

[buoyant arrow]

Took me way too long in life to realize he's not actually called Mr. Bean

[cursive solar]

cant make fun of one side parroting points when people were doing the same yesterday

[indigo wadi]

haha

[jolly prism]

That is not nearly how it works. You can check the process on the official EU site.

[white mica]

ikr, for like half my life i thought his actual name was dowan bean atkinson and he used the middle name as a stage/acting last name

rowan*

[fluid dome]

Did you know in Carlo Collodi's Pinocchio, the talking cricket is actually an allegory for nagging parents, and Pinocchio shuts him up by throwing a hammer at the talking cricket. I think about that story beat a lot

[indigo wadi]

XD

[wary lotus]

Ross has no real plan though.
He just hopes that using Unicorns and the Power of Friendship - things will magically become fixed.

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah that's precisely why I'm sure they can't update the initiative as it is submitted right now.

[jolly sky]

This outlined section is impossible to implement for online games without handing over the IP and Copyright law, and therefore the rights for an individual to actually OWN THE GAME THAT THEY DIDN'T MAKE

[cursive solar]

what i recommend if people have time is read the inititiave themselves, the FAQ, ross' and thors video, latest and from 10 months ago, thats alot but if you really care about the the situation then do more than just watch 1 sides video cause you will be stuck parotting one sides point instead of your own opinion

[minor nymph]

EXACTLY

[cursive solar]

people wont say im right because i dont fully agree with them

[fluid dome]

Thor rn:

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-hhhhomeboyyyy-kings-dark-tidings-saga-by-kel-kade-reaperleviathan-head-explode-gif-21578105

[wary lotus]

What if - as a Dev - I licensed some online code to run the game. That license is NOT transferable.

What now?
Do I pay for a license to everyone?
Do gamers have to contact the company and get the license for each individual instance?

[cursive solar]

but definitely try to watch both sides and read the page and FAQ

[indigo wadi]

ah, seems that bit didn't include the life of brian bit

[minor nymph]

Welcome to Microservices

[polar sandal]

No, it does not break copyright law. Specifically:

[indigo wadi]

still including the FAQ?

[jolly sky]

Yes, it literally does. You cannot have one without the other. What you posted is magical "hand-waving" of the laws that currently exist

[fluid dome]

Perhaps I have dodged a bullet by not getting into game dev if this is the bs I have to deal with on the regular

[minor nymph]

Their proposal for Microservices is that new companies will show up with compliant microservices that can exist after end of life.

[undone dragon]

I think the saddest bit is.... people wanting One Side to Be Right. Are games Art and the death/loss of Art a tragedy? Yes. Is it possible to sustain in perpetuity all game? No. And both of those are true at the same time....

[buoyant arrow]

Gods what if they contracted third party studios? Like the Demon's SOuls remake by Blue Point? Would From Software be liable or Blue Point? Blue Point doesn't have the copyright or IP of Demons Souls..

[cursive solar]

i respect and completely see that, thats a good point

[wary lotus]

That's why it's impossible.
The people supporting the SKG just have no clue how impossible it is legally.

There is a reason why a lot of the "private Servers" operate in a grey area of "this is not legal - but people turn a blind eye to it, cause litigation may not be profitable there".

[indigo wadi]

when this planet gets encompassed by the sun, none of this will matter...or when this simulation ends, whichever happens first

[minor nymph]

Thats the issue. You cannot accomplish the proposed goal without providing server binaries or giving up the right to litigate against reverse engineering and rehosting meaning you lose copyright enforceability.

[fluid dome]

We'll get gta 6 before we get a solid end to this circlejerk of a discussion

[undone dragon]

I choose hope. Humans will outlive Sol :p Heat death of the Universe on the other end....

[buoyant arrow]

Consider the untold amounts of paintings, books and music lost over the course of history. I am for preservation. But preservation is something else than "I wanna play my game forever"

[indigo wadi]

hold on, i got something

[jolly sky]

You can't just say "Nuh uh" to Copyright and IP law

[jolly prism]

The initiative is mentioning some games as "responsible" examples of ending support - Gran Turismo Sport, Knockout City, Mega Man X DiVE... I am sure the developers have not handed over their IPs in order to meet this criteria. So is it really impossible? Is SKG mistaken or you?

[indigo wadi]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/83qcG2kB0f0

[wary lotus]

The issue is that you cannot write it into LAW - cause not all games can achieve this

[cursive solar]

im noticing something, ever since thor started speaking in this chat, things people have started to say make more sense than what people were saying yesterday

[white mica]

darkviperau

[indigo wadi]

yee

[wary lotus]

You really think that if this was easy, Devs wouldn't just... release the game server files?

[white mica]

also i read too much fanfic i always read AU as alternative univers not australia

xD

[undone dragon]

It's the "sempai noticed me" effect

[buoyant arrow]

Copyrigth that's uneforced becomes dangerously challengable. Studios could run into IP issues when trying to make sequels, or even try to return to an old unfinished title to finall finish it.

Squatter effect basically

[polar sandal]

Server binaries is not what was explicitly outlined as a solution. It could be several solutions.

[minor nymph]

None of these games were online only. They had online only side features that could be shut down cleanly. Try to do that with Division, or League of Legends, or Guild Wars.

[buoyant arrow]

Helldivers was my example

[fluid dome]

The collective iq of the chat goes up by 10% whenever Thor appears I'm pretty sure

[minor nymph]

List the solutions that I have not covered. Stop being vague.

[cursive solar]

people are just parroting right now what thor is saying and rewording it, not saying i agree or disagree with what they are saying tho, just a funny observation

[buoyant arrow]

What's the point of Helldivers if you don't got a galactic war going on?

[cursive solar]

true

[wary lotus]

The online infrastructure for LoL is absolutely insane though.
You cannot just "release the files" and expect it to work.

[jolly prism]

That may well be true but you were replying specifically about IPs and Copyright Law - that applies to both kind of games.

[wary lotus]

I remember hearing about what they did - it's incredible.

[indigo wadi]

he's the only dev that's chimed in on it

[jolly sky]

Precisely, who is actually going to run that outside of the developers?

[buoyant arrow]

Fighting Games and the engineering magic they perform to reduce input lag. Rollback systems.

[undone dragon]

My comfort game is Secret Worlds Legends. I am deeply grateful Funcom maintains the servers (Anniversary event is on now!). But I am not entitled to being able to go escape into Kingsmouth just because I'd want to

[cursive solar]

oh i know, i just found it funny until thor spoke in this chat today, what people were saying yesterday made no sense

[indigo wadi]

gotcha

[wary lotus]

And then you run into the issue that lots of Devs will just look at how much WORK they'd have to put into making their online game function after they are done...

And they'd go "Nah, I'm good. We're not making this game."

[minor nymph]

Incorrect. Rehosting is very different from a game designex to be playable offline. An online only game is a service provided by infrastructure. This means it needs hosting and is now provided to players.

[cursive solar]

today is a break day for me overall, just chilling and watching what people say

[sterile nexus]

is it not possible to release a final patch to a game that allows you to load it without the online component, wander its world without other players in it and just keep playing that way? yes this delimits certain activities without other players but i think the creator of SKG would accept that as amenable in the view of the initiative. Im not saying it isn't work but that would be functional and playable by the intiatives definition.

[wary lotus]

No - it depends on the game.

[buoyant arrow]

Possible? Sure. It's also possible for me to climb a mountain. But it'll very friggin hard.

[minor nymph]

Do this with Helldivers. I'll wait. That's the issue. A massive number of modern games CANNOT do this.

[wary lotus]

A singleplayer game that just "phones home" to make sure you did not violate the cash shop?
Easy patch.

An MMO?
HA HA - no.

[jolly sky]

Like for example, a game that loads in assets directly from the server itself

[cursive solar]

i would think it depends on the game, but thor will know better, mmos id expect no

[indigo wadi]

Here's a question. What game would you want to be held to this intiative standard?

[minor nymph]

Exactly. And since the initiative wants this for ALL games then I am against it. Look, we've recapped my entire video.

[flat moat]

Building dummy services to replace servers without requiring proprietary licenses and the likes with legal backing is near impossible near the end lifespan of a game. It's a ridiculous amount of effort that will require a complete remaking of a large interconnecting part of the game and a lot of funding

[buoyant arrow]

And it only took longer than the actual video!

[wary lotus]

It was such a good video - we had to reenact it.

[jolly sky]

It's amazing how easy things are to understand once you aren't blinded by raw emotion and unmitigated shit-throwing

[cursive solar]

thats where i dont think thats true, the inititiave states to have games in a reasonably playable state, although because of the discussion yesterday i had with people, people were asking whats a reasonably playable state

[minor nymph]

But hey, I didn't do my research... right?

[cursive solar]

an mmo being playable after servers going down is unreasonable

[elder scaffold]

Nah youre just a corporate plant! /s

[white mica]

no your the dev of a live service game

[buoyant arrow]

Imagine having to wind up production all the way back up in 100 people studio to provide something you will have 0 income from. Those people need to get paid their wages.

[wary lotus]

Keep strong Thor - the wave of hate is huge lately...

[indigo wadi]

i hate it when the demo of heartbound goes offline. Can't believe I paid for that.

[minor nymph]

What is a reasonable playable state for a game that needs thousands of players and a server infrastructure to play? Do we carve all of that off so Helldivers can be played solo by an end user? Do you see what js being requested here

[elder scaffold]

https://tenor.com/view/buy-the-demo-piratesoftware-thor-gif-2965959134657331482

[cyan widget]

@minor nymph This controversy brought me to your community. Hope you are doing fine

[indigo wadi]

o/

[elder scaffold]

Welcome, dont let the haters turn you off from us :>

[flat moat]

Nah, you are just a game dev with 20 years of experience, majority of which working in live services, you can't have a knowledgeable opinion about something that affects live games..... waitaminute

[cursive solar]

thats where i agree, theres games that is unreasonable to expect to be playable, but the initiative doesnt state that every game should be playable, i agree with both sides

[minor nymph]

Doing fine. Just getting hate for shit I didn't say because so many were unwilling to watch the videos of what I did say.

[fluid dome]

FromSoft games don't actually need an online component to be playable after end of life, since its primarily designed as an offline experience.

The only things you're missing out on when you're offline are phantoms, invasions, messages, co-op, and pvp. That's it.

So I think it's fine there.

Though idk what Thor thinks about that.

@minor nymph

[minor nymph]

Yes it does.

[maiden talon]

I was told by Fytch that StreamDad was here, so I came here to see what StreamDad had to say, and I have to say, im not disappointed in StreamDad

[solemn tiger]

I think the hour long video was just an attempt to shift the blame to someone because the initiative failed, and it had to be someone else fault, definitely not because the initiative wasn't good enough. You can see it in the comments section under every post. They are talking about you and unrelated things, not about the initiative.

And other content creators saw the opportunity to join because drama is drama.

[indigo wadi]

If the initiative was aimed at games with an online component, then I could see reason. But all games? that in itself is an overreach

[minor nymph]

This is demanding that ALL GAMES be playable in this manner.

[flat moat]

General language encompasses a larger group

[buoyant arrow]

From Soft games came out the gate with offline mode functional. Later ones even with more and more special NPCs to enable an online like experience when doing offline play. Which is a position the Souls games are uniquely set up for in how their multiplayer works.

[wary lotus]

Ross is just trying to fling shit at Thor, so he can get some people into his movement.

It's basically a shitty tactic...

[jolly sky]

Dark Souls 1 2 and 3 were offline for several months when the RCE exploitation was found, and was completely playable. But that was only possible because of its design focus. Not every single game will have that design

[indigo wadi]

Apparently Ross holds himself accountable but still blames Thor 🙄

[solemn tiger]

exactly

[maiden talon]

"video games" is such a broad topic, Pong is a video game, youre telling me that Pong is being destroyed? no. its not.

[indigo wadi]

almost like the first time when they tried to farm bait Thor?

[wary lotus]

Yup

[buoyant arrow]

I could make a game right now, would take me 3 days of a little potato dodgiing smiley faces until you get 10k points.

[cursive solar]

i read the first couple lines and took that as not all games being expected to work forever, cause that would be very unreasonable, as the initiative does state, as i said its very unreasonable to expect mmos for example to be playable after servers get taken down

[flat moat]

Yeah, instead of spending the last 10 months getting other content creators and the likes to support his initiative with EU signatures, he left it to the last minute

[indigo wadi]

How many versions of Tetrist are there?

[buoyant arrow]

I now have make sure it'll be in playable state.

[minor nymph]

Read the entire thing. Not the first couple of lines.

[wary lotus]

"I read the first couple lines"
I found your problem right there...

[indigo wadi]

headline reading

[maiden talon]

each of them are unique and add a different playstyle to the game, I wouldnt say thats destroying the game. you could argue "but it doesnt have anything to do with pong or tetris" but it does, since its "video games" and not a specific genre or game itself

[frozen sonnet]

Sorry I only read the first letter

[fluid dome]

Yep

[jolly sky]

I hope GlisteringLime is actually reading all of this, and wont just come back parroting a clip from Ross again

[indigo wadi]

I was more pointing out that Tetris, a game from the 90s, is still alive and well today. It ain't dying anytime soon.

[cursive solar]

i read it and i get why people think that, maybe that part should be worded better, but as ive looked at what others say and such i understand that thats not what the initiative, it t is going for, thats why i always push the idea of you and him talking, or other devs, it takes both sides to have a discussion

[buoyant arrow]

I've been waiting for it, I have to admit

[cursive solar]

read my new reply

[indigo wadi]

That's been one of the main points. It's vague and poorly worded.

[fluid dome]

I'm ready with the parrot emoji dw, we'll help them out of this pathing loop even if I have to pavlov it out of them

[minor nymph]

Do not move the goalposts. The initiative asks for this specific goal and I do not like that goal. That's what all my videos are about.

[indigo wadi]

Ross had 10 months to do that. He chose not to for w/e reason

[flat moat]

Speak and ye shall receive, O Dan of the Discord

[jolly sky]

And the argument that "It's designed to be vague" is a shit argument as it affects SO much more than what its initial goals are

[nova bough]

even outside of videogames is a possibility.

[cursive solar]

wait, i just stated i agree that part should be better worded, i just see what the initiative is going for, how is that moving a goal post? actual genuine question

[crude pagoda]

I'm just curious, why shouldn't MMOs be required to have an end of life patch allowing for private server set ups?

[fluid dome]

Bc he doesn't like Thor, like legit, that can be the only reason atp

[wary lotus]

The issue is that Ross is extremely poorly wording everything whenever he goes with this initiative - and he's not taking feedback.

If he would be willing to look at his own words and go "wait, this may be bad - could you help me figure out what CAN be done?" that could warrant a discussion.

But he just wants to push his current goals - using others.

[buoyant arrow]

"I hate that that car is green." "But here is why it's green." "I still hate that that car is green though", basically

[jolly sky]

Because it means the Copyright and IP of the MMO fall directly into the hands of the individuals of the people who didn't make it

[maiden talon]

because, the creators of the MMO still own the IP, its still their property

[cursive solar]

i swear ross did contact thor, i swear thor said that, now that thor is here tho he can actually properly say whether or not ross contacted him cause i couldve sworn he did

[indigo wadi]

other Devs though, he could of reached out to, not jus tThor

[wary lotus]

Ross basically needs to take a step back - reword his initative, talk with Developers and come back with a solid, actionable plan.

[jolly sky]

Which is the same logic of trying to Copyright "AI" art. You didn't make it, it's an image made of thousands of other images that were made (and illegally scraped) from other people

[fluid dome]

And he didn't. So it's his loss ngl

[solemn tiger]

I couldn't finish watching the section of the video when he "reacted" to Thor, he listened to what Thor said, than said "no" meaning it's not what the initiative was about but he didn't say what's wrong about Thor's take, just that it's wrong. Doesn't make any sense.

[crude pagoda]

So, they have more rights to it than the people who paid to own it is the stance? It's not giving the rights to the game over to allow for private servers, it's giving them the ability to host their own servers. It would be easy enough to amend the TOS to allow for those private servers to exist.

[cursive solar]

id have to double check what ross said to thor about talking but i thought he did say that he would like to talk to thor to clarify things

[wary lotus]

I listened to JoshStrifeHayes interview with Ross. Josh was trying his darnest to make Ross reword and show the plan correctly, but Ross was constantly just nailing every single bad take...

[fluid dome]

This is like a student of math arguing with a mathematics professor about proven equations and doubling down

[buoyant arrow]

Copyright must be defended to remain viable. If the publisher/developers are required to just hand of the game to 3rd parties (users in this instance) they are unable to defend their copyright, weakening it and opening themselves up to losing the copyright entirely. Probably wouldn't be instant, but that'd be a devastating lost, for studios large and small, to just lose their IP to some private hosters of their first game, when say, they try to make a sequel years down the line.

[cursive solar]

@wary lotus ill go and check again

[polar sandal]

Firstly, after laws based on SKG's initiative would be passed and assuming they would apply to live service games as well as singleplayer games, companies could develop plans how they would end the support for their game. This wouldn't affect current games.

As for possible solutions, there are a few:

• Release server binaries or integrate server hosting functionality into the game itself. (which you did mention)
• If it's a multiplayer+singleplayer game, the singleplayer functionality could be preserved.
• Build the game in such a way to either be able to release the microservice binaries, or be able to disconnect from microservices, along with releasing server binaries.

Either way, the industry will definitely make their voice heard. I doubt any law proposal based on SKG would have your outlined issues. However, what I can see is if the game is an online-only multiplayer game with server software that is not possible to release due to copyright issues, that is cause for concern, and I would argue the European Commission and the videogame industry would definitely address this point. The initiative is more like an opening phrase of a discussion rather than a law proposal.

[jolly sky]

Giving individuals the ability to host the server Is giving them the Copyright and IP to the individual. You can't have one without the other.

[white mica]

oh i dont watch josh but i know of him i got to watch this interview, mind linking it?

[indigo wadi]

a poorly worded opening phrase

[maiden talon]

9 times out of 10 the singleplayer functionality IS preserved...I dont see the issue...

[elder scaffold]

Stop Killing Arcade Games 😭

[dusty seal]

Did anyone see Moistcritical's video that dropped yesterday

[indigo wadi]

JSH is the only other one that I was willing to listen to because he has middle ground takes

[cursive solar]

oh wait i forgot, thor deleted ross' comment on the video, that was where ross asked to chat with thor

[maiden talon]

moistcritikal? whos that?

[buoyant arrow]

"It probably won't be bad" is just not enough to convince me. Not by a long shot. You put so much trust in European Commission for this that I just cannot share, even as a EU citizen

[vast pilot]

no, but I saw tectone made one too

[cursive solar]

i dont think he shouldve deleted it

[tight bramble]

So I just woke up and just wanted to add something that I thought was odd. In his video, Ross states that the initiative failing is his fault, as he he didn't stay active with it and wasn't vocal enough about it. So he basically just wanted online virality to do the job for him. If the leader of your cause doesn't talk about your cause, then the cause is doomed to fail. The leader doesn't believe in his own arguments.

[fluid dome]

Charlie

[maiden talon]

[elder scaffold]

I never seen any proof of that

[indigo wadi]

whats a charlie?

[minor nymph]

You know what's most insane about this?
I went back through and watched my own videos.
All of the points I have made during this conversation.
All of the revelations people are having at what I've been saying here.

ITS ALL SAID IN THE DAMN VIDEOS

[cursive solar]

ill send the comment in a screenshot

[minor nymph]

WHY IS THIS GENERATION UNABLE TO READ MY GOD

[cursive solar]

let me try get it

[flat moat]

Outsourced critical thinking!

[indigo wadi]

because the education system is set up to purposely make ppl stupid

[fluid dome]

old.

[buoyant arrow]

I don't need to be able to read! I get by just fine, thank you

[indigo wadi]

only consume, thats it

[solemn tiger]

Able but unwilling. Most of the people just want drama.

[cyan widget]

Ross only included snippets of Thor`s video that he wanted to make controversy on

[wary lotus]

That's cause Josh wanted to MAKE A PLAN, but Ross was trying to keep it planless...

[buoyant arrow]

I don't even speak english.

[nova bough]

cause kids are getting passed without reading skills in the US.

[jolly sky]

#streamchat message

From here

[indigo wadi]

And again, that falls on Ross. No one else is to blame.

[elder scaffold]

Wasnt it like 40% of US Adults read below a 6th grade level?

[wary lotus]

Yeah

[lunar moth]

Exactly.
That's part of why the moment has had concessions within it from its inception.

[white mica]

Jeg snakker ikke engelsk?

[jolly sky]

Oops, discord didn't reply there

[cursive solar]

excuse thor peaking out at the bottom right

think that comment got deleted

[indigo wadi]

EXACTLY!

[cursive solar]

playing peak a boo at the bottom right

[indigo wadi]

He didn't do the heavy lifting

[buoyant arrow]

Ne, Ich sprech kein Englisch. :)

[minor nymph]

It got auto-modded.
We talked about it publicly at the time.
YouTube is shit.

[crude pagoda]

Why would giving the ability to host also give away the copyright? For example, the early 2000s neverwinter nights allowed for the creation and hosting of servers without Bioware losing access to the copyright.

[wary lotus]

There is a reason why Ross only gathered 500k people for something that "technically" should've received easily millions of signatures.

It is written badly.

[maiden talon]

something like that, yeah. Personally, I try and make my vocabulary larger by watching videos that actually make me smarter and not brainrot, surprising how that works

[cursive solar]

ahhh fair enough

[jolly sky]

#streamchat message

This is why

[opaque raven]

Not sure how well know this is but I have 2 examples of gacha games that had EoS (End of Service) but the companies found a way to create a version that is Offline later that you can purchase. This might add to the discussion, even if just tangibly.

• Animal Crossing: Pocket Camp (Mobile)
• Megaman X DiVe Offline (Steam, Mobile)

They both had single player and multiplayer interactions, the online parts were revamped (Guilds, Ranking, PvP, Gacha itself). You have full access to most of the content those games had in the past after purchase (aside some collabs, maybe due to licensing issues). One caveat is that on Pocket Camp there is a system that asks for some players to go online and authenticate the game, for some it's every month, others every 2 months, and others this was never asked (like me), so I'm not sure what's happening (I'm still trying to understand it). The important thing is that it doesn't need constant connection.
With Megaman X DiVe, as far as I know, it's fully offline. This seems like a great step forward on the direction of preservation, one that naturally developed within the market and might deserve a closer look, I'm always in favor for the market to signal companies of the directions and actions they take being good or bad, and this is a great one in my opinion.

@minor nymph I suppose this might be interesting to you ☀️

[maiden talon]

Auto-Mod, A blessing and a curse "We dont think you want to see this, so we are gonna remove it"

[fluid dome]

Could you spare the pixels

[cyan widget]

A new Sticker is born

[wary lotus]

Those are basically singeplayer games though. They just called home to make sure you didn't cheat on their gacha.

[indigo wadi]

Ross should of approached Thor before launching the initiative. He could of accomplished a lot more with input before hand.

[fluid dome]

Wait mega man dive is one of the games mentioned in the initiative!!!

@indigo wadi

[crude pagoda]

Except I provided an example where that was not the case. What makes that different than any other mmos private server access?

[indigo wadi]

wtf is a mega man dive? that a sex position?

[cursive solar]

that i agree but i also dont see why it couldnt happen after either

[cyan widget]

Yes

[balmy bone]

Ah... great. The PirateSoftware vs Accursed Farm is now hitting my server.

[tight bramble]

"I want my mmo to be playable offline, but I want to play with my friends and do group stuff. Wait...."

[wet storm]

https://tenor.com/view/tom-enojado-molesto-newspaper-gif-15571434

[indigo wadi]

My understanding is that Ross' community turned hostile, and then Ross.TBH, I'm not 100% sure about Ross' hostility towards Thor.

[maiden talon]

always only a matter of time before it breaches containment

[fluid dome]

auto mod

[polar sandal]

either way I think this whole thing needed to be much less hostile

[opaque raven]

Hmmm no? I played both for a very long time and both had a lot of multiplayer interaction. Megaman had a lot of coop rooms, pvp, etc. AC also had many interactions

[buoyant arrow]

The issue is potential risk and how such risk will dissuade future developers and scare away investors. Any investor worth their cash will not invest in something that is forced at some point to risk it's entire IP due to legal requiremnts.

[indigo wadi]

Yeah, a shame Ross couldn't have done that before things went south

[polar sandal]

although I personally didn't really appreciate Thor calling the whole thing shit instead of calmly addressing it at first

[jolly sky]

Because Neverwinter Nights is over 20 years old, and games have gotten a lot bigger in scope, and have needed different laws to apply to them to make them work in the way they do. Different games also have different design choices

[cyan widget]

Guys i will start a petition to Start Killing Games.
All Games should have be Online only and the EOL will be secret. One day you will woke up and its gone.
This will include games like: Terraria, Jackbox and most importantly Board games

[cursive solar]

oh yea i believe ross' community wouldve been hostile for sure, although ross im pretty sure only started openly talking about thor after the video from a day or 2 ago

[indigo wadi]

he did calmly address it.

[elder scaffold]

Arent private MMO servers like those WoW private servers illegal?

[indigo wadi]

he did 2 videos on it, calmly addressing it

[wary lotus]

That's because he noticed he is getting nowhere - and needed a boost...

[polar sandal]

through his video, yes, however, on stream he called it shit and was absolutely pissed off about it

[indigo wadi]

Yes

[cyan widget]

Dont think about it hahahahahah

[hardy ingot]

I actually like some points in the initiative... however it all goes to hell the moment the EOL plans topic drops, because that significantly increases dev costs and limits options due to licensing...

[indigo wadi]

because it is a shitly-worded initiative.

[dusty seal]

I didn't mean to piss anyone off by asking, I'm also not saying I agree either, I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on it

[balmy bone]

oh well. my server has a free speech channel. let them fight.

[fluid dome]

Hindsight is 20/20 and Ross needs to go to ducking Specsavers

[jolly sky]

He actually did do that. Pointing out flaws does not equal "calling the whole thing shit"

You really have to start listening with your ears and stop projecting other meanings onto stuff

[buoyant arrow]

Yup. But there are legal examples of private servers being run after the game ended, like City of Heroes. They got permission from the rights holders.

[indigo wadi]

Like, thor is not gonna mince words

[wary lotus]

We're not mad.
We're just stating our opinions.
Nobody has been called a Wagsac.
Yet.

[crude pagoda]

They are currently, and I respect that while MMOs are actively running that is 100% fair. But take City of Heroes for an example, it would be completely gone forever if not for private servers.

[indigo wadi]

ain't no one gonna handle hold this

[cursive solar]

thats exactly it yep, and theres nothing wrong with that, you need to watch ross' to understand why hes only talking about it now, but because i think most people wont watch it here, i can tell you, its because before, he didnt want to make it look like the cause was just bait for drama farming and also make sure the initiative was being taken seriously

[fluid dome]

Why are certain curse words blocked by the automod its ruining my vocab

[polar sandal]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDehACf4sBxfTMV4ysb1pXCGQqHMyPwH-?si=1YFJXRFj2ssGWoLX

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, but even City of Heroes has official permission if I recall correctly.

[wary lotus]

I miss that game...
I used to work on the relanuch of it.

[indigo wadi]

can you stop linking the same video? Seriously.

[buoyant arrow]

@jolly sky It happened again!

[polar sandal]

the part I sent here quotes what I mean

[hardy ingot]

This is exactly what I've been thinking while going through it all today again out of curiosity, since so many of my friends keep trying to convince me to side with the initiative.

The initiative ONLY considers what consumers believe to be good for them, completely ignoring costs it would introduce for the developers and how it hurts said developers, which is a problem, because dev x player is a symbiotic relationship, if one suffers, both suffer.

[maiden talon]

I think that says more about your vocab than about Auto-Mod

[polar sandal]

it's a clip from piratesoftware

one of the streams

[elder scaffold]

Nice of them to clip it out of context

[crude pagoda]

Again, very reasonable. Why can't that be done at the end of life for any game?

[indigo wadi]

oh boy, thor clipped out of context? 🙄

[wary lotus]

"We want FREE FUEL and FREE ENERGY!"
"Who will pay for it?"
"The lawmakers will figure it out!"

[jolly sky]

A 17 second, out of context clip

[indigo wadi]

thors main points are the videos he did 10 months ago

[fluid dome]

The taxpayers

[polar sandal]

can you provide the context then? I can't find the exact stream, I've been trying to find it

or are you just assuming it's clipped out of context

[elder scaffold]

I dont know either but it is definitely clipped out of context

[indigo wadi]

why are you trying to find a stream?

[jolly sky]

Do you not realise that time existed before that clip?

[still quiver]

It's obviously multiple different clips, it cuts to different backgrounds lol

[livid path]

That’s 99% of Thor’s content

[cursive solar]

lets settle this, thor is clipped out of context?

[wary lotus]

Thor LITERALLY had 2 videos where he talked about his position.
There are no needs for clips.

[maiden talon]

the stream is probably gone cause thor was probably being harassed by SKG fanatics

[cursive solar]

cause fair enough if it is

[hardy ingot]

Exactly, I got 2 responses on that from my friends exactly
1.) "I don't care, that's their problem, this sounds good for me!"
2.) "... This is stupid, I refuse to argue about this because... reasons!"

[lunar moth]

"What's next, water is wet?"

[indigo wadi]

Yet Thor did 2 videos explaining his perspective about SKG?

[fluid dome]

GlisteringLime is still on the same point of the discussion and the rest of us are in NG+

[cyan widget]

So... water is not wet, it makes things wet

[white mica]

xD

[nova bough]

water makes things wet

[indigo wadi]

Im at the start menu

[cyan widget]

YES

[livid path]

Well yes but he spoke about it on stream extensively too

[elder scaffold]

Whatever touches water is wet

[buoyant arrow]

Cause it's a ton of work and cost that not any studio can do. City of Heroes was a herculean project of passionate fans doing it and the company saying "Aight cool, you can keep doing that". That's not nearly as universally feasible as some people make it out to be. Imagine having to wind up your entire studio back into production near the end of life of a game to modify it to be playable. Those people need to be paid for their time. It's unclear how long it would take. It could run extreme costs in a time when such a studio could have minimum income and would be better off putting their money towards a new projects

[cyan widget]

Water itself is NOT wet

[fluid dome]

Did you get kicked again :(

[polar sandal]

it was cut down so it wouldn't be that long, it is from the same stream

[wary lotus]

I think we exhausted the topic.

I'm gonna go work on my little spider game.
If there is something we can agree on - is that Thor tells people to make games. And that is worth doing, especially now.

[indigo wadi]

Sure, but his full points are in the video where he breaks it all down.

[lunar moth]

@cyan widget @nova bough
Eh, good points!

[fluid dome]

Water before being wet ig:

[livid path]

Yeah that was the point of the videos, but for nitpicking purposes the streams are important

[wary lotus]

I'll see you guys next drama cycle

[jolly sky]

Thor had the Livestream reaction to SKG's proposal. There were obviously points where he went in with an open mind, and the more he read, the more he disliked. You know, like how an actual human being would react to seeing bad news.

Then he went and made informative, calm and collected videos on Youtube.

[wet storm]

Water is 𝓶𝓸𝓲𝓼𝓽

[indigo wadi]

the issue with going to streams, is things are clipped out of context

[indigo wadi]

critically

[glass horizon]

City of heroes homecoming might not be a great example. It existed as an unground, probably illegal private server supposedly based on leaked source code from the original developer. Only last year did NCSoft give them a limited license to continue operating. Iirc, the big thing in the license is they aren’t allowed to make any money or claim any up/copyright.

[cyan widget]

that topic is Critical

[grim pine]

This reminds me of that one meme

[indigo wadi]

this makes me moist

[elder scaffold]

There's also like 5 different cuts in that 17 second clip

[indigo wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/moist-tongue-wtf-gif-9227697

[elder scaffold]

which couldve been things said over multiple hours

[cursive solar]

i hate this...

[indigo wadi]

bwahaha

[cursive solar]

wheres the men in black

[rocky venture]

[tight bramble]

What a beautiful day to regret having eyes 😀

[indigo wadi]

LOL

[buoyant arrow]

Enough internet for the day

[indigo wadi]

hey, at least it's not meatspin

[buoyant arrow]

I'mma eat a bucket of strawberry yogurt and then go to bed

[fluid dome]

My favourite part of all of this is that y'all could be using 100 words to say 1000

[hardy ingot]

What I found hilarious though that everyone argues the initiative is not vague.. which, admittedly, I agree, it's very clear in that it's very ignorant of the cost it proposes

Yet, every video covering it happens to say something entirely different.

Ross: "It's not necessary for the devs to give us binaries!"
Moist: "Devs need to give us the binaries!"
... So far I have yet to see a video where they actually keep it consistent

[trail ridge]

chugs it

[minor nymph]

Writing a big ass post

[trail ridge]

oh this is wrong chat

hi thor

[trail ridge]

bye thor

[cursive solar]

chat, do i get a triple cheese burger meal at my local chippy shop

[maiden talon]

Thor writing a big booty blog!

[indigo wadi]

the initiative in a nutshell

[livid path]

Why 😭

[still quiver]

GL.

[elder scaffold]

Also most of these clips are thor saying something about dumb comments people have left in his chat and not directly about text on the initatives page etc

[tight bramble]

A big Asspost.

[maiden talon]

you gotta ask him why, i dont know

[trail ridge]

a bi gas post. we're turning all of you bi now

[fluid dome]

Before you do that when will you be playing Lies of P and the recently released Overture dlc on stream?

[cursive solar]

will it be on the discord or just twitter

or both i guess

[balmy bone]

of course... I disagree, so I must be a sheep, right?

[elder scaffold]

baaaaah!

[jolly prism]

New post, new drama 🍿

[maiden talon]

"I hate when large youtubers ruin things with their ignorance" is a weird line

[hardy ingot]

I want to see the people arguing so much that the initiative's idea is actually harmless and easy, and licenses etc. don't actually really matter and all.. I want to see them go argue that to DMCA rules on frickin YouTube, let alone to government...

[indigo wadi]

you've been gaslit into being a sheep, Thor said so

[balmy bone]

Bahhhhhhh

[elder scaffold]

Its funny they think thor had such a large influence on the failure of this movement

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/worship-cultofthelamb-praise-gif-26454363

[nova bough]

[flat moat]

Welcome to the cult of the lamb

[polar sandal]

the drama did

[jolly sky]

Lmao it's orders of magnitude away from being harmless or easy

[fluid dome]

Between this and the recent Act Man controversy I haven't had a break to just chill

[hardy ingot]

Very ironic when a much larger youtuber supported it and it done sweet FA 😄

[elder scaffold]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/v8-8WsYj9FU?feature=share

[mossy timber]

As much as I don't like Sony as a company and how much I think Concord was a mess I do not think Sony should pay to keep it up and running just because 200 people want to play it. I honestly do think they lost enouhg money on it already!