streamchat

[cursive solar]

but theres a difference between the crew or hitman and then an mmo like wow

[indigo wadi]

Allowable by the devs

[woeful lantern]

It matters because it's why it was sunset to begin with. Changing the game to permit people to play offline when that was never the intention of the game in question is a big expense.

[dull oasis]

Ah so you can have private servers and keep the IP then?

[split tulip]

that is taking away their IP. IP rights mean you get to decide how your work is used. people making their own stuff in your IP is using that (which is why fanart is such a grey area)

[terse pelican]

Minecraft servers have their own EULA and ToS.

[dull oasis]

Again it does not.

[cursive solar]

also i do want to state, people found an offline mode that was worked on for the crew but that was abandoned and never returned to

[indigo wadi]

If the permission is there. Obviously we're talking without with private servers

[west agate]

so lets make it legal!

hell, make it legal only when the official isnt around anymore!

oh wait thats what SKG seems to be going for
that being a positive CHANGE
not a solution, but a strive for change towards a solution to a very real problem

[split tulip]

did any of those have a set expiriy date?

[indigo wadi]

to make it legal, it requires permission from the devs and/or publisher. Look at City of Heroes as a good examples

[split tulip]

yeah, they got a license to operate a server by the IP holder

[dull oasis]

If the game is no longer supported and no longer sold devs shouldn’t be having an issue with fans still wanting to play their games. The IP does not get touched.

[green plank]

actually i got an idea, if games are to be kept operational, heuristically you will be switched to a subscription model, that way devs generate income and you get to drive around a car with 3 of your friends

[acoustic oxide]

The difference is that Minecraft servers are still under Mojang's jurisdiction. They have banned servers before for breaking their rules. A privately hosted server for a dead game would not abide by those same rules, as the company behind the game in the first place have moves on/disbanded/whatever.

[cursive solar]

the crew and hitman? no, i think its very wrong, luckily hitman isnt down yet but since that game is a live service game with live service features, im just praying that game will be playable after they shutdown servers

[west agate]

currently

But if a SKG type thing is codified (after a great deal of discussions that should NOT be rushed) then it will be allowed to happen/be the standard practice

[indigo wadi]

Right, they got permission

[indigo wadi]

It does though?

[woeful lantern]

Hitman is entirely playable without internet Connection.

you just don't have access to the online features

[cursive solar]

yea which im glad about

[warm trench]

Lack of permission is not permission.

[dull oasis]

I can have a private server on my own computer and mojang can never see what’s going on in it.

[split tulip]

your progression is limited

[dull oasis]

It doesn’t.

[woeful lantern]

in what way?

[split tulip]

you can't unlock new gadgets. needs to be online for that

[green plank]

i just feel like new tactics will be created to make players quit if they want to close servers

[woeful lantern]

... I don't think that's the case...

cocks head

[split tulip]

https://www.nme.com/news/hitman-review-bombed-on-gog-for-going-against-anti-drm-policy-3054904#:~:text=Hitman currently sits at a,review and share your opinion”.

[cursive solar]

i guess a better example is one of the tony hawk games, one of the games basically is mostly not playable, the disc came with 1 level and the rest was on a server to download, which means if you got the game after the servers shut down to download the data, your out of luck

[pine isle]

that's assuming lawmakers don't mess with it somewhere in the "striving" process
(granted, I don't know if EU legislation has the same issues as US legislation when it comes to likelihood of a proposed law being twisted to screw over the people who proposed it)

[green plank]

like if by law your forced to keep things operational, then ill just charge players 100$ a month to keep playing 🫤

[split tulip]

it fails to mention that offline players will not access features like “unlocking weapons, outfits, starting locations and more”

[dull oasis]

If that’s the worry then we will never get anywhere.

[indigo wadi]

How does not it touch the IP when the game is tied directly to the IP?

[dull oasis]

Because the ownership of the IP stays the same

[acoustic oxide]

except when the built in player reporting feature lets them see chat messages..

[woeful lantern]

... huh, I could've sworn I'd lost internet while playing before and everything was fine.

weird

I sit corrected on that then

[dull oasis]

Ah thanks for that correction, though it still doesn’t touch the fact that IP ownership doesn’t change if you have a private server

[cursive solar]

but yea, think its tony hawk pro skater 5? can only play the first level cause the servers are shut down, unacceptable, id have to check again if it was that tony hawk game

[west agate]

well thats the thing
im not saying they should take the SKG and codify it right away

im also not saying we should hand it to a room full of suits and ties and wait till the white smoke comes out the chimney with a result

but a large push towards a good thing has to start somewhere and is gonna require a long and driven process towards what is basically stopping anti-consumer practices

[wary drift]

The very idea of it being fully legally protected that someone revives a game implies they hold some kind of license to use the IP used in the game.
Because this would be a status quo where anyone can use the IP, if only specifically to maintain the game, it would mean that the the company who holds the IP would need to release some kind of universal license accessible to anyone and everyone for the purposes of maintaining the game...
Which is where it gets even messier, because now we get into what does and doesn't mean maintaining the game? Do the revival game's developers lose their license if they alter the character models to their own tastes, because it isn't 100% the same as it was in the live game previously and is thus technically a derivative work?
Do they have the right to post screenshots of their game, which also showcases the IP, but is not technically required for maintaining the code base?
If screenshots are allowed, then why not machinima for the purpose of trailers, etc?

[woeful lantern]

there's actual lawyers going "Don't give them shit that's too vague"

[cursive solar]

how do people feel about a game being stored on servers and that when that server gets shut down you cant download like 90% of the game

[west agate]

who is them?
sorry not fully graspin ya

[indigo wadi]

i accept that can happen

[split tulip]

don't buy the game if you don't like that

[woeful lantern]

Khronos was one of them.

[cursive solar]

the thing is, you cant know that

[split tulip]

I play MMOs fully knowing that they will end one day

[cursive solar]

and its awful or good? or you dont care?

[west agate]

what do you mean tho
what are the lawyers actually sayin

[pine isle]

I disagree.
We need to keep this among gamers and developers as much as possible. If the lawmakers have too much say over the final form, this will never get resolved well.

[dull oasis]

Did the Metroid 2 fan game give the developer the Metroid IP? Or did Nintendo exercise its right as the IP holder?

[indigo wadi]

as an mmo player, I accept that it can happen. Awful or good does not apply to my accepting of it.

[west agate]

would it not be better, objectivly, if that wasnt the case?

[split tulip]

if they don't disclose that, then yeah that should be illegal. which is why I'm for labelling that as a requirement. but that's not what SKG is. would support another initiative for that tho

[wary drift]

Not a Metroid fan (or Nintendo in general, they're pretty horrible), so I have no idea of what specifically you're referring to.

[cursive solar]

okay, so do you accept then that it could hurt most games if that continued

[indigo wadi]

Depends on the game. Single Player games? Those should be 100% downloadable

[frigid crown]

Is that referring to "don't make laws that are too vague" or is it in reference to the initiative? Someone more versed in EU legislature processes might have a better idea but my understanding is this is just to get discussion rolling and wouldn't be the actual law that gets proposed in the end.

[cursive solar]

the initiative is also about that btw

[west agate]

so what about games with DRM but that are understood to be full games without the need for internet

again gonna point at the crew for an example here

[dull oasis]

So basically it stays with corporations and their interests. With the initiative industry experts and the creators of the initiative also get to be part of the discussion

[split tulip]

I suggest looking at initiatives that did pass. all of them have very clear messaging about what they want done. not "do something reansonable"

[indigo wadi]

Most games are not mmos. Most games, at least currently, are fully accessable unless the devs/publisher does something silly. Most SP games I play are not reliant on being online

[split tulip]

that's part of the problem with it. it's not focused on a specific issue

[dull oasis]

Nintendo cease and desisted them. That’s because making a fan project doesn’t give you the IP, neither does making private servers. The IP is an entirely separate legal system

[pine isle]

If it goes to the lawmakers too early, then corporate can out-lobby us.

[indigo wadi]

the need for an internet connection for those games has always been a dumb thing. i understand it's for piracy, but it shouldn't be required after download.

[cursive solar]

i never said most games were mmos, you should know that thats obvious so why would i have meant that, you know i was talking about games that arent mmos

[wary drift]

I know you said previously you won't talk to other people, and I don't want to start a second conversation, but I just want you to understand that the argument both you and @dull oasis are making is why you feel strongly that something needs to be done.
As a matter of fact, I agree with both of you that something is deeply rotten in the gaming industry and it needs to be fixed.

The issue is, that the proposal being put forward wouldn't fix these issues, or even lead the EU parliment towards discussing the right issues, because it's proposing an entirely untennable 'solution' that would kneecap entire genres of games.

[indigo wadi]

I also do not want government involvement (or at least more) when it comes to video games.

[split tulip]

if laws that required companies to allow private servers if they released in the EU; then I could see many just not releasing their stuf there anymore

[dull oasis]

If you’re wanting a limited word count initiative to hit every facet of the issue then it’s never going to happen either. Especially when you have big influencers misrepresenting the initiative

[wary drift]

Yes, at the moment it does not.
If the law passed, if the fans had full legal right to maintain Metroid 2, then Nintendo couldn't touch them, meaning Nintendo would have limited rights.

[indigo wadi]

then the initiative should of been worded better beyond 3 lines.

[wary drift]

(I know it's not an actual law, but I mean if something akin to what is being put forward came into law, was just being short.)

[pine isle]

Personally I think that's a flaw of the EU's initiative process, if I'm being honest. Initiatives shouldn't be limited word-count.

[dull oasis]

It doesn’t kneecap entire genres. That was a misrepresentation by Thor.

[cursive solar]

im sorry but games need to be regulated better, if it means getting the government involved more then thats worth the sacrifice, games being left mostly unplayable or just completely unplayable after buying it is unacceptable

[split tulip]

I think it forces you to specifc, and to not make these kitchen-sink initiatives

[woeful lantern]

Khronos specifically mentions EU law and how this stuff works.

[dull oasis]

Not true, as the IP ownership didn’t change

[wary drift]

I literally just brought up to you multiple original points that Thor didn't mention that all demonstrate how such an approach would kneecap the industry.

[dull oasis]

It’s more than three lines

[wary drift]

You keep using past tense, I'm talking about a future hypothetical. You don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying.

[frigid crown]

Will try to find some good examples of that, not as familiar with sorting through and finding what was the initial proposal vs what was produced after the fact if reference to it so may take a little while but thank you.

[dull oasis]

It’s because it’s not a law, it’s to start the discussion

[pine isle]

Can't be specific with a limited word count, though

[indigo wadi]

What needs to be regulated better is the constant increase of video game pricing.

[frigid crown]

Ah thank you, will give that a look later.

[cursive solar]

theres a whole FAQ, videos of ross talking about it, the whole front page, the front page isnt just 3 lines too

[indigo wadi]

And no, it's not worth additional government involvement, especially when the government is alredy not trusted enough to do the right thing

[cursive solar]

thats a whole different issue

[wary drift]

If you want a discussion, it's already happening.
The EU is already examining multiple aspects of video games, including a lot of the awful practices.

[pine isle]

It's to start a discussion with legislators, where the legislators don't know jack about what the initiative is about because of how vague it has to be due to limited word-count.

[indigo wadi]

FAQ is not part of the initiative thereforth it cannot be included in the initiative.

[half badge]

Exactly you could have bought the game 5 minutes before the end of life

[west agate]

okay then

so what should be the solution for games that have "died" because the servers were shut down?

Im not gonna use WoW as an example cuz its a subscription based model rather than a payed game
but what about the new Dune game

that is a set price, but half of the functionality, if not more (ignoring possible DRM/always online preventing anything) would be gone
yet consumers paid for a thing, and should have the right for a thing

SKG, yes currently vauge, seems to be pushing for change in which those consumers are protected in getting access to the product they paid for

[woeful lantern]

If you watch his stream starting at around... 10 hours 48 minutes or so, Thor loses internet and someone asks him about it.

[dull oasis]

And I don’t agree with them as none of them actually change IP ownership and the owners of the IP could still shut down fan projects

[cursive solar]

its there for people to understand it, which most people havent read it seems

same with the videos

[jolly sky]

That isn't the big problem. It's the prices of literally everything else increasing without the wages to match

[dull oasis]

Your future hypothetical isn’t what can happen. IP ownership doesn’t get touched by this initiative

[split tulip]

yes you can. just pick your targets. Example:

Show percentages for all items that can be gained through paid random chance mechanics, "mystery boxes or "lootboxes"

[frigid crown]

Khronos or Thor's? Would it be his most recent one, or I guess currently if he's still streaming?

[cursive solar]

anyways im done for today, tired

[woeful lantern]

Khronos', and yes

[half badge]

It's also the fact that Thor was so wrong on so many points it's obvious he never did any research but his ego wouldn't let him back down

[woeful lantern]

most recent

[wary drift]

If the IP owner can still say 'no' to anyone who wants to revive a dead game, then they are not required to allow for the dead games to continue functioning per community effort.

[half badge]

Has thor ever admitted when he messes up

[indigo wadi]

I'm all for reading an initiative but if you require additional information beyond whats required, then it's not a good worded initiative.

[dull oasis]

With legislators, industry experts, and the initiative creators. It really isn’t as vague as you’re making it out to be

[woeful lantern]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2494469409?t=10h51m50s

ish

might have to go a BIT earlier

[split tulip]

yes

[woeful lantern]

to get his entire thing

[half badge]

Provide a example

[frigid crown]

Ty that helps a bunch finding it

[woeful lantern]

An actual UK Lawyer disagrees about how this shit is supposed to work btw.

[half badge]

I sure as hell cant find it

[split tulip]

if you watched the streams you'd know

[half badge]

Provide a example

[dull oasis]

You’re misrepresenting the situation. It has nothing to do with fans reviving games, but with the original devs allowing people who have purchased the game to still use the product.

[indigo wadi]

except none of those seem to have been contacted to make the initiative better?

[spare topaz]

y'all should look at the full implications of regulations, even good regulations. EU 745/2017 is a good regulation, but having watched its rollout across my industry over the last 8 years its requirements for traceability and device monitoring has had the decided factor of muscling out more and more smaller manufacturers due to regulatory burden. There's currently a concerted effort from that manufacturing demographic to have the next tranche of implementations of that regulation mitigated because it risks sinking the concept of SME manufacturers in our industry. Regulations can be a blunt instrument, and unless everything is written precisely, the smallest groups will always lose.

Regardless of the merits of the proposal, unless written in a way to clearly state what is being regulated you risk losing more than you bargained for

[dull oasis]

Which one

[cursive solar]

look, im ngl, if i care enough about an initiative ill go read the FAQ, and i know you will argue then that the initiative shouldve been better worded or whatever but tbh, im tired now 😭

[split tulip]

you can do that research on your own time

[cursive solar]

wait, i cant swear? why is that flagged

[pine isle]

This
This a million times

[jolly sky]

Right after the WoW dungeon happened. He himself said in his own words, "We all messed up, myself included"

And that is just one example, yet people chose to ignore it, or not include in their chosen clips

[cursive solar]

i said f'ing, how is that bad

[wary drift]

Which in the case of a lot of types of games means revival projects.
Again, how would I be playing Star Wars Galaxies again without someone running a server?

[woeful lantern]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2494469409?t=10h49m0s

Khronos is a lawyer in the UK.

[half badge]

That alone was it was his fault.Not everybody there, he couldn't take sole responsibility for it

[indigo wadi]

how is this even a question still?

[cursive solar]

i get slurs being flagged but swearing man? 😭

[terse pelican]

Shifting goalpost again?

[jolly sky]

We're not getting into a discussion about how that wasn't the case for 15 quadrillionth time

[indigo wadi]

No it wasn't. it was initially yamatos, omg

the call to run was made

[cursive solar]

anyways, imma head to bed, it was good chatting with everyone as much as it looks like most people disagree, goodnight everyone

[indigo wadi]

so running happened

[dull oasis]

Well no it doesn’t mean revival projects. It means having an end of life plan so the game can still be used after support ends. Plenty of games have done that

[half badge]

I know you guys will defend your streamer god untill the end but I thought something like dkg would be something all gamers agree is good

[indigo wadi]

if that's your attitude, then feel free to leave

[cursive solar]

wait, was this to me?

[woeful lantern]

Homie, you realize that Thor agrees with the concept right?

[split tulip]

I don't think he has said is a lawyer in the American definition ( and does not practice in the US afaik), but a solicitor or something similar ( and definitons are important for law people)

[woeful lantern]

just not the execution?

[indigo wadi]

no

[cursive solar]

oh npnp

goodnight everyone

[half badge]

His ego needs it to be done his way. It's okay tho nothing ever happens

[spare topaz]

except i dont agree that your proposal is a good thing. You are proposing a level of regulatory burden that puts innovation at risk in the long run

[wary drift]

Okay, what would the 'end of life' plan for a game similar to SWG look like? If there can be no such plans for a game like SWG, then games like SWG would simply not get published because they couldn't comply with the legal requirement of having such plans.

[woeful lantern]

A solicitor is a lawyer who traditionally deals with most of the legal matters in some jurisdictions. A person must have legally defined qualifications, which vary from one jurisdiction to another, to be described as a solicitor and enabled to practise there as such. For example, in England and Wales a solicitor is admitted to practise under the provisions of the Solicitors Act 1974. With some exceptions, practising solicitors must possess a practising certificate. There are many more solicitors than barristers in England; they undertake the general aspects of giving legal advice and conducting legal proceedings.

[jolly sky]

Tank pulled 3 groups of mobs before everyone was ready, Yamato made the call to run. People ran. Thor also made mistakes as per his words, there was no single person that was at fault. It was a collection of mistakes by multiple people, yet Thor was the one scapegoated by Yamato.

[indigo wadi]

Why are yo uactually here? or is it just to drama stir?

[terse pelican]

Look. We know you came from reddit today. Go back please

[jolly sky]

Anyway

[indigo wadi]

The tank ALSO made the call to run as well

[half badge]

I just love that he cant even admit that he miss understood parts of it

[indigo wadi]

HE DOES

HOLY HELL

[jolly sky]

He's shifted back to SKG

[cursive solar]

btw, charlie (moistcritical) made a new video on SKG, just noticed

gonna watch it

[spare topaz]

do you? do you understand the full implications of your proposal?

[half badge]

The thing about all games needing to be turned to single player was never said by dkg

[late parcel]

Hi, why does thor set flase information on the Stop Killin Games movement?

[half badge]

He made that up

[indigo wadi]

he doesn't. He looks at it from a dev perspective

[jovial sandal]

Easy question, he doesnt. You've just watched a hatchet-job version of his point, and scrambled over here

[half badge]

But some of his points where never mentioned in dkg

[split tulip]

that's pretty much the least relevant argument. way bigger issues in the initiative

[half badge]

Im saying Thor is already made things up about this

He donst understand or just pulled it out of his a$$

[cursive solar]

okay, just as a head count cause im curious, how much people watched ross' video from yesterday

and be honest

[frigid crown]

Oof seems like discussion is moving away and more into shit flinging, guess nows a good time to actually start doing the things I've supposed to been working on lol

[jovial sandal]

I have

[spare topaz]

so come on then, explain it to us; do you understand the full implications of the level of regulatory burden the proposal is suggesting? if so, please explain

[indigo wadi]

he explains his points and why they are the way they are.

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/warcraft-gaming-gif-27702118

[jovial sandal]

and Charlies, and Mutahars, and Josh's interview with Ross, and Louis Rossman's

[jolly sky]

With such a poorly worded proposal, I'd have invited you to have fully understood exactly what was wanted from the Initiative from the first outset

[cursive solar]

okay good, same as me, and the actual page and FAQ etc

im gonna assume the people that didnt say anything hadnt watched his video from yesterday

[dull oasis]

Khronos was a paralegal in the UK. So unlicensed and not regulated.

[woeful lantern]

Okay, could you at least spell the acronym right

please

[jovial sandal]

my opinion remains the same: Thor is the only person who has actually expressed the problems with the proposal, and taken the changes that such a proposal would implement out to their logical conclusion

[woeful lantern]

this is like the 4th time you've spelled it wrong, and given you're allegedly here to argue about him being wrong about it...

[half badge]

Okay im dropping this for now because I'm geting pissed off im just trying to try and see thors side to this all. You guys are saying see both sides but attack any of us when we bring up a point

[west agate]

as much as i agree with this, it did make me rather concerned hearing that there was a level of misunderstanding and i have personally not seen a clarification from thors part

there very well may have been and ive missed it, and i would very much like to listen to that should there be one

[woeful lantern]

no one has attacked any of you

[terse pelican]

So we discredit people based on a lack of governmental accreditation?

[indigo wadi]

talking for 5 minutes and already pissed off, roflmao

[jolly sky]

You're misconstruing making points against you as attacking

[flint sinew]

[cursive solar]

hey im not with that guy 👐

[safe nimbus]

Just read the petition and it is very vague in its language. Nothing any of their videos talks about seems to be adressed in the oveview or annex. Is their more of an official proposal someone could link? Or was the overview and annex it?

[wary drift]

For the record, one of the first things I wrote here was explicitly referencing the actual way in which Ross presents this whole thing, blatant false dichotomy and all, but I was in another room when you asked, so don't worry, you can morally write me off as not having watched it.

[dull oasis]

I’m only discrediting the claim that he’s a lawyer so I should listen to him

[woeful lantern]

I know, he said we've been attacking all of you.

[cursive solar]

nah, i believe you dont worry

[terse pelican]

Ross is not a politician. So we shouldn't listen to him either

[cursive solar]

oh yea dont worry, i know you guys havent been attacking, just disagreeing, although of course there will be people from both sides attacking each other, i just try to ignore them

you guys have been good

[woeful lantern]

Being a paralegal in the UK is still more than Ross, and he knows better about how these things are supposed to work than any of us.

[split tulip]

I do actually disagree with his point there, but I don't think it's relevant. and it stems from a larger issue of the initiative not being clear and concise in what it wants, which leads to many different interpretations. I think the much larger issue is what exactly what is meant to happened after end of service and if it's feasible

[dull oasis]

I’m sorry I don’t get where you got to that conclusion

[indigo wadi]

cause you're saying that about Khronos?

[jolly sky]

What you read, is what the legislators would also have to read if the Initiative went through. So yea, it's no wonder it's failed at multiple points

[terse pelican]

You don't want to listen to Khronos because he's not a lawyer. By this logic. Ross is not a politician, so we shouldn't listen to him about legislation

[safe nimbus]

Thats what it seamed like. Thx

[wary drift]

Sorry if I've been a bit passive agressive, I'm sure you mean well, it's just something about this specific 'everyone comes out of the woodwork to dogpile a guy a year later' thing just irks in a million ways, especially with some very bad faith presentation that I've seen from the main influencers laying down the blame.

[cursive solar]

look all i want to say to end my piece i guess is just for people to give ross' video from yesterday a watch, i tried saying that yesterday but my message got deleted by a moderator

[dull oasis]

Well no someone told me I should listen to him because he’s a lawyer so I pointed out that he’s not a lawyer. That’s all

[spare topaz]

its my central problem with it. regulations should not be based on vague platitudes, no matter how much i may agree with the underlying principle. They need to be specific, detailed, clear on their intended goals and the methods by which they seek to achieve this. Even if SKG gets the required number of signatories, this proposal would not pass muster through even the first gate, there are too many points that are not detailed, too much room for interpretation

[woeful lantern]

the mods are often on a hair trigger when a big burst of people being toxic happens, sometimes people catch strays.

[flint sinew]

there are different types of lawyers btw

[cursive solar]

nah nah its all good, its been a good discussion, i get when people think im just some other thor hater, whereas really i just disagree with him and im open about it

[dull oasis]

The SKG initiative was drafted with help from lawyers as well. Should we all listen to it now?

[split tulip]

if you want an example of an initiative that is clear and that actually got answered: (hopefully this is not considered too political)
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2021/000006_en

[indigo wadi]

thenthose are really poor lawyers

[jovial sandal]

its not as compelling a video as you seem to think, and it creates a strawman of Thor's arguments against it

[split tulip]

SAVE CRUELTY FREE COSMETICS - COMMIT TO A EUROPE WITHOUT ANIMAL TESTING

[jolly sky]

Exactly. Even if the Initiative went through at the first hurdle, I could very easily see it failing during that process, and would have to be re-sent and re-structured multiple times before it even saw the light of day in front of a Law giving system

[cursive solar]

nah i get it, i just need to dodge and weave those timeouts and possible bans 🫣

[wary drift]

Maybe the real solution is to create a brand new type of lawyer.
A Court of Gaming, where this new brand of lawyer can Ace Attroney it up and examine games for bad practices case by case.
||I'm mostly joking, but really I think the closest thing to a proper solution the main issues can have is some new department of the EU dedicated to judging games case by case and establishing some form of precendent against specific practices.||

[flint sinew]

so

[indigo wadi]

as long as you're respectful, you'll be fine

[west agate]

perhaps its just a credibility thing for me

its harder for me to engage in good faith discorse with some of Thors perhaps genuine concerns and good points when there doesnt seem to have been a proper public evaluation of the misinfo/lack of clarity on Thors part.

Perhaps its just my hope that someone with a large platform is able to navigate opposing discussions perfectly, but that is really unrealistic

[flint sinew]

are we no longer moving in circles or

[cursive solar]

we are just talking about something ya know

[flint sinew]

hmm

[jolly sky]

Nah you might just be on the straight part of the mobius strip

[indigo wadi]

if there's a lack of clarity, it stems from the initiative

[cursive solar]

yeppers

[spare topaz]

or worse; it would be handed to working groups and technical committees, and then you start to see scope creep and expansion

[jovial sandal]

circles within circles

[flint sinew]

straight? me? ha --- oh wait you meant the convo, oop

[indigo wadi]

then we end up with hytale

[dull oasis]

Can you at least admit Thor misunderstood things that were actually explicit on the website?

[cursive solar]

@flint sinew also, mr/mrs moderator, why is swearing not allowed 🫣

[indigo wadi]

As I said, if there's misunderstanding, it's because the initiative wasn't clear.

[dull oasis]

Again, on the website.

[west agate]

perhaps
but i only found out about it through Thor, and i have now since been told there was a level of misunderstanding echoed by thor, that i have since had to independently verify

not saying that it is Thors responsibility to quell any community miss info, but it would have been quite nice to get that clarifiation

[jolly sky]

Which again, what would have been the actual play once Thor expressed interest in it, would have been to have a private, sensible discussions with Thor and others to make the language clear and concise, rather than the shit-flinging that happened

[indigo wadi]

if it wasn't clear on the website, then that's on the ppl that wrote it, not thor

[flint sinew]

mr, and no no swearing, i'm watching you /s

[indigo wadi]

oh you're just here to drama, byeeeeeee

[dull oasis]

But it was clear, he said something that completely contradicted the website

[spare topaz]

but thats not what sells on the internet - the very name of the initiative is emotive for a reason; logic and reason gets fewer eyeballs that emotion and passion

[indigo wadi]

Nope just recognizing those that want to stir drama instead of have a conversation.

[flint sinew]

so you cant keep it cordial

hmm

[indigo wadi]

Again, point me at a time stamp

[spare topaz]

theres an old quote from St Augustine that feels very applicable to the internet these days: "Peace makes for poor reading"

[indigo wadi]

also not a brain dead take if the initiative isn't clear, then you can't expect someone to not have a misunderstanding

[maiden talon]

A wise man once said, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused

[dull oasis]

SKG video 8:14 he says the initiative wants games to be supported indefinitely. Website FAQ explicitly says it doesn’t want that

[indigo wadi]

Does it say that outside of the FAQ? If it doesn't, then THAT'S THE ISSUE

[west agate]

right. but for thor to then get the intention/be educated further/have a deeper discourse, but to then (at least ive not seen) put in no effort to correct the previous statements while having an evidently pursuasive platform doesnt feel great

[indigo wadi]

you can't just put an FAQ together to have it included in the initiative if the initiatve has limited words. That's not how that works

[jolly sky]

The FAQ is for people getting a TLDR upon visiting the website. That doesn't get included in the actual Initiative would have been read by the legislators

[indigo wadi]

not helpful

[split tulip]

other initiatives have passed with the same word count limits. it's possible

[woeful lantern]

It's not moving the goalpost at all, it's Thor's whole point of the video. That the initiative is not specific enough for him to support.

the FAQ is not part of the initiative

also, as far as I can tell on his video, he never opened it

[dull oasis]

Ross has said several times to Thor they don’t want that. The Initiative itself says they know support will end. Thor is on stream prior to the SKG video with a bullet point list of what “stop killing games doesn’t want” and one is it doesn’t want indefinite support

[split tulip]

if if's important to the argument, put it in the argument

[wary drift]

He says: "If you're telling me every company will have to run their games indeffinitely or not want to run them at all"

The second part of that, the "not want to run them at all" is a reference to what he lays out about the difficulties that come with trying to make it possible for people to continue maintaining games after they are abandoned.
What he's saying there, is that the only two options a company would have, is either run the game indefinitely, or compromise in ways that make the game not worth making. Why those ways that are not worth it are innevitable with a lot of games is what the rest of his argument is.

[flat moat]

Given the amount of harassment and death threats Thor and other members of the community have been given since the start of this whole debacle, it's not hard to see why he's standing by his views instead of changing it to fit the tide at the insistence of people that constantly call him wrong and tell him to apologize for a discourse that's between two adults

[flint sinew]

[split tulip]

[flat moat]

Same thing happened with OnlyFangs

[dull oasis]

The initiative doesn’t say at all that support needs to be indefinite. Infact it says that support would end

[wary drift]

What's in the sippy box?
Is it XP?
What does it taste like?

[indigo wadi]

but the fact that it could be read that way is a problem. The initiative should have included that point.

[spare topaz]

ok, so explain how they are meant to leave it in an operable state and not maintain indefinitely? Patches for windows and graphics cards go live every week that render some old software unusable that they would legally be required to issue patches to fix. Is there clarification on when the cutoff of support would be? and if so, how is that different from the current state of affairs?

[maiden talon]

I think its wild that in our great year of 2025, you have a whole bunch of whats probably adults arguing about video games

[flint sinew]

tears

i mean

[indigo wadi]

and on that note, I have to make supper, so won't be able to respond.

[flint sinew]

uhhhhh

[woeful lantern]

The only bulletpoint list he's ever on screen with is the "Reasons the ECI could pass"

[wary drift]

I think you might be misinterpreting my words as being against Thor, I'm just explaining what Thor meant

[split tulip]

I'd actually be supportive of them trying for second run if they took in the feedback they've received. would have to narrow the scope and focus

[kindred holly]

NGL, this is some of the worst shit to happen in the community here. Its like walking in a damn minefield.

[frigid crown]

Well in case discussion breaks/dies down before I hop back on later I just want to say it's been nice actually talking about things. Been helpful and learned some new things and most of yall have been great. I mostly just lurk but felt like actually diving in for once.

[dull oasis]

“Or not run one at all” is in reference to his previous point saying the initiative wants live service games to become extinct. Another thing the initiative never says

[spare topaz]

my apologies - its just that ive seen similar things all day - it bugs me that the conversation around this is so emotive, considering were talking about a thing with legal ramifications

[dull oasis]

At this point I can only take you saying the initiative could be read like that as bad faith. As it literally says support will end

[wary drift]

He doesn't say "or not run one at all".
Listen closer.
"Not want to run one at all"

[jolly sky]

What that meant is that the measures the the Initiative wanted as its desires would make Live Service games not worth making

[dull oasis]

No there’s another stream clip.

[jolly sky]

Oh boy here we go

[terse pelican]

Another one today from reddit

[flat moat]

IMO, SKG should have literally also have gone to other creators instead of just having members of his community consistently reach out to Thor and try get him to react to Ross' first SKG vid. If you want something to be successful, reach out to all creators in case it doesn't hit at first

[split tulip]

that's his interpretation. that the requirements that would come from would be too much for the business to consider. now exact reasion for this is his experiences, which you'd have to ask him about

[maiden talon]

"but we know it isnt going to happen" what does he have to apologize for?

please, enlighten us

[jolly sky]

Exactly. He could have reached out to various people and say "Hey, does this make sense? If so, why, and if not, why?" And so on from there

[dull oasis]

Yes in reference to not wanting to run a liver service game at all. The initiative does not stop live service games

[maiden talon]

cause like I really wanna know what Thor needs to apologize for

[spare topaz]

how long would they need to support a game for under the proposals? How long is long enough in terms of support?

[maiden talon]

one person doesnt kill an initiative, thats not how they work

[kind niche]

Did we lose yesterday's VOD? I was curious to see his response to my TTS but no VOD.

[dull oasis]

Which is not true, the initiative literally just says to keep them playable when service ends. As in not to plan for them to be destroyed at end of service

[flat moat]

Honestly surprised they sat on their hands for this long for creator outreach

[indigo wadi]

Seriously?!

[terse pelican]

Definition. What is a live service game? There's no legal definition. So any game can be one

[lime vine]

Most likely because Thor doesnt want out of context clips to be made. I dont know :/

[flat moat]

Yeah, it was just a mix of things that caused issues during the stream

[astral crypt]

You'd be surprised the seriousness with which this is told in chats today

[jolly sky]

Except he was the one bombared with inflammatory talk for merely having an opinion, lmao

[dull oasis]

There actually is no request to support a game for any amount of time. Just to either have an end of life plan or accurate warning on purchase of when service will end

[jolly sky]

Including death threats, by the way

[indigo wadi]

Thor didn't, what? Roflmao. He made his 2 videos and that was it.

[split tulip]

"playable when service ends" is the problem. doesn't outline what is actually expected

[flat moat]

If Ross wanted it to be purely about his movement, he'd have done better outreach so that Thor was ignored as a result and wasn't dogpiled on

[wary drift]

And Thor never said it's about stopping live service games, but that it would make making live service games a nightmare for many reasons

[spare topaz]

i wouldnt lean to hard on this - the EU is phenomenal at not clarifying terms. The regs for medical device cite state of the art, but there is no formal definition of what that means except for one standard from like 20 years ago, and the EU has not seen fit to change that

[jolly sky]

The 1000's of banned accounts across Youtube, Discord, Twitch etc

[maiden talon]

yes

[jolly sky]

Yes

[split tulip]

I saw the messages that were rolling in. it was a lot

[terse pelican]

Which is a problem. It should be defined for clarity

[astral crypt]

No his team did. Me included.

[flat moat]

The moderators did as a lot of the comments were harrasment

[dull oasis]

Working state when support ends. There you go

[split tulip]

and I just saw the tip of the iceberg

[woeful lantern]

There were at least 2 death wishes just yesterday

in chat

[astral crypt]

less thank you'd think tbh. Holds it for us though and that's hella helpful

[split tulip]

"working state" is not specific...

[woeful lantern]

that I personally saw

[jolly sky]

As it turns out, telling someone to kill themselves doesn't particularly make for a good start for a discussion

[woeful lantern]

(one of them was banned from the platform in like 6 minutes)

[maiden talon]

did he ever tell them to stop?

[flat moat]

What was seen vs what was not seen. I bet there were a few hundred

[spare topaz]

but an end of life plan is support. it means that mitigations would need to be put in place to maintain operability, and the EU is a stickler for minimum timeframes of maintenance. Leaving something in an operable state is all well and good as a platitude, but the regulations would then have to look into the context of what would be deemed sufficient

[maiden talon]

I dont think I ever saw ross come forward and say "hey guys, stop harassing the dude"

[dull oasis]

He says it’s about trying to kill the practice of live service games at around 1:10

[maiden talon]

maybe Ross should be the one to apologize

[lime vine]

Holy shit streamchat is going absolutely nuts right now.

[astral crypt]

When this stuff happens Thor always tells us to NOT throw shit back or be disrespectful and I delete/timeout those of our community who do that.

[arctic needle]

Who is Ross?

[flat moat]

Pewdiepie didn't agree with the Christchurch shooter and he made a video showing he had no links to him and disavowed him.

[astral crypt]

HE DOES ALL THE TIME ACTUALLY. ffs

[spare topaz]

actually he did, multiple times

[split tulip]

depending on what "Working state when support ends" would be interpreted as, it very well could

[wary drift]

Considering that he himself in his more recent video tried to present things as if his only two possible recourses after the video criticising his proposition came out were "ignore it or start youtube drama", as if the idea of privately reaching out to Thor and/or other veterans, working through the proposal and coming up with an improved version without the listed issues was completely alien...?

I honestly can't say.
I'd like to think they wouldn't be on the side of the flamewar, but that is a pretty heinous misrepresentation of the options they had.

[maiden talon]

Thor tells us MULTIPLE times not to attack other people

[woeful lantern]

Thor tells people that basically everytime people make a big toxic mess.

[flat moat]

Why couldn't Ross do something similar to disavow the toxicity?

[green plank]

because ross is god dude

[dull oasis]

End of life plan is just to make it so you can still play the game after support ends. Plenty of games have done this.

[split tulip]

or they just go their separate ways

[flat moat]

Was there a public announcement vid?

[flint sinew]

"uh your name is apples, so you must hate oranges" /s /j

[woeful lantern]

which video? because the first one he's busy talking about what an ECI even is at that timestamp, and the second is him pointing out how such an initiative could be abused which is why some devs would not support it.

[dull oasis]

No, no it couldn’t. It would just be the game as is at time of support ending.

[wary drift]

What could Thor have done?
He presented his criticism. People told him they didn't want to hear more from him. He then dropped the topic and never brought it up again for 10 months.

[flat moat]

Was there a tweet? We all need to know because otherwise this is just internet discourse where a bunch of adults act like children

[flint sinew]

yep

[dull oasis]

The main SKG video he made

[wary drift]

Like, unironically, what should Thor have done?

[woeful lantern]

at 1:10 he's busy explaining what an ECI even is.

[split tulip]

what does that mean tho? source code? allowing private servers?

[green plank]

let me help you all understand, "thor" = we are allowed to be really mean to him cause he talks technically and stuff / "ross" = we have to support cause hes based and the name is [stop killing games] and we like video games so that means its good

[dull oasis]

Are you on Thors main SKG video?

[rocky prairie]

What is your opinion of Stopkillinggames. It's just one question, please don't ban me

[woeful lantern]

if you mean a few seconds later... he's STILL not saying that. He posits a question "If we're trying to kill off live service games posing as a single player game..."

[dull oasis]

Not misrepresent things the initiative never said is a good start

[spare topaz]

but what happens when the next graphics card update renders it inoperable? Or operating system revision? In general, the EU prefers an end of life plans in their existing regulations to be circa ten years. Consider how much technology has changed in 10 years - now imagine if every game studio from single indie devs all the way up to AAA have to guarantee operability for anything longer than "at time of sunset". What happens then?

[languid eagle]

Any interest or respect I had in the SKG movement immediately died once they resorted to a harassment campaign like common thugs. Everything they do after this is a moot point.

[lime vine]

You won't be banned as long as you are civil. Watch his videos about it.

[wary drift]

This is going to be a little mean, but unironically: Skill issue.
It's not Thor's fault that Ross failed to produce more traction, or that the influencers who are now pretending like they care so much about SKG didn't say a word about it for 10 months.

[astral crypt]

People on the outside always have something to say about what someone SHOULD have done, but please, for the love of god understand that hindsight is 20/20. It is so easy to judge from the outside. Living this is hellish and asking for more is just unrealistic and unkind.

Best thing to do is take another stab at what the initiative's goals were in another way with a better worded legal document. Like, that often happens. But they chose not to do that.

[green plank]

i really hope charlie has a bad stream tonight due to the backlash

[dull oasis]

Allowing players to still play the game after support ends. That would depend on the genre

[frigid crown]

https://pastebin.com/S2JY8SPW
Don't know if this is as much as people are hoping for but Ross did talk about it back when it initially started popping off

[split tulip]

"it depends" is the crux if the issue. it opens the door to anything and everything

[woeful lantern]

that person did not say that Ross did any such thing, but that the community did the thing. Which they did

it isn't

it's what they said

you can say that all you want

it's literally what they said

[flat moat]

It was less that but more so he let things get out of control that people would use the SKG movement as an open way to harras a creator

Completely agree it was unwarranted

Should have been kept SKG only

[green plank]

well yea, ross is falling off in popularity he has to find a way to pay his rent

[spare topaz]

except thats exactly whats happened

[woeful lantern]

Again, no one is saying he did.

No one ever said that.

certainly no one you're replying to

[spare topaz]

no one said it, but the effects of it have been felt

[fluid dome]

I feel like I'm missing crucial context here

[jolly sky]

I think "he let things get out of control" is a bit disingenuous to be honest.

People will do what people will want to do, you can't control them

[cedar shale]

Its a formal petition, not an official legislation

[woeful lantern]

It's a petition that's too vague

[dull oasis]

He frames that as what the initiative is going for, when that’s not the case it has nothing to do with the advertising.

[woeful lantern]

that's the point that needs work

[jolly sky]

Which is exactly what the legislators will read if it went through, and its too vague for that as well

[split tulip]

look at other formal petitions that did get accepted. see what they did and how they explained themselves

[spare topaz]

its a formal petition to become legislation

[cedar shale]

Thats how petitions starts?

[jolly sky]

And yet it can, and has, been done

[woeful lantern]

then don't try to make a petition that creates an umbrella law

[jolly sky]

With issues far more complex than this

[woeful lantern]

if you can't word it specifically enough for people to be happy with it

[green plank]

ok if this petition is so good then why is it dead

[woeful lantern]

then don't try to umbrella

[flat moat]

True, it is a bit disingenuous but the people do need actual public posts and YT vids for a proper history instead of streams where VODS can be lost or the recorded talks can be long forgotten

[woeful lantern]

target one specific thing

[cedar shale]

I feel like you guys dont understand how the ECI works, none of the petitions, even if successfully signed, are guaranteed to pass. There have been ECI petitions that got their signatures but got rejected by the EU commission

[green plank]

yea

[woeful lantern]

okay

and?

[split tulip]

if yoy want a politician to do something: be specific. don't ask for "possiblity of more rest areas in the local area" ask for "a bench in the local park, by the playground"

[fluid dome]

I thought leaving games in a playable state at the end of a game's lifespan was the goal, no?

[flat moat]

This is true

[dull oasis]

Again this is a misunderstanding of the process, it just starts the discussion to hammer out any vagueness. Industry experts and the initiative creators discuss it further after the initiative passes

[woeful lantern]

it's too general and unspecific as to how

[split tulip]

look at the ones that did pass. see how they are worded. and how different they are from SKG

[green plank]

if it was so good, why did 5 slop youtubers wait 12 months before using there massive platforms to make a short vid throwing a guy smaller than them under the bus 🫠

[dull oasis]

It’s not dead, it got almost half a million signatures. Initiatives don’t always work the first time which is why he’s resubmitting it

[flint sinew]

kendo

[fluid dome]

Majority of reactors on the platform are grifters ngl

[indigo wadi]

Half a million isn't a million, therefore, this version, is dead

[thick ledge]

im buying a ticket to go see pearl jam, and when the concert is over im gonna grab one of the security officers by the ankle and cry that theyre removing me from the venue

unrelated to current discussion

[marble kindle]

My opinion on the matter is that Thor was speaking primarily from a perspective of protecting his own interests while trying to sound objective to a large audience which I consider to be pretty icky. At the same time, the petition was somewhat poorly thought out, and Ross’s response was not exactly what I would consider graceful. Not a single person involved in this controversy has handled things in a way which I consider to be honorable, and I think everyone needs to go cool off instead of continuing to argue about a bad petition for a good cause.

[green plank]

im sorry

[dull oasis]

If you bought a movie and they came in and erased your disk after a certain amount of time would you have no issues with it?

[maiden talon]

Pearl Jam is a great band, you sir have some banger music taste

[spare topaz]

i cant believe you hate pancakes

[fluid dome]

This makes no sense

[thick ledge]

if i bought a movie ticket and then when the movie ended someone refused to leave and demanded to be allowed to watch the movie on repeat forever, id think they were a wierdo

[indigo wadi]

Speaking from a dev position is icky why?

[dull oasis]

This is what’s happening.

[cedar shale]

The point is not about the wording, its about displaying an interest in a topic and informing the EU Commission that they would like it to be LOOKED AT.

The EU does not blindly make up laws from nowhere, part of the ECI process is that involved actors and experts, and yes that includes game developers and game publishers, will be invited to the discourse in order to get the idea considered and looked at from all sides. It took them years to pass the USB-C charging cable standard and companies were given years of time to adapt

[thick ledge]

honestly, shitposting aside

id be all for requiring a disclaimer that a game is a live service and eventually subject to shut down

like they do with cigarettes

i think its a good middle ground

[jolly sky]

Yup, like how Steam now has the "This is License for a game"

[dull oasis]

Why are you not answering my question? A movie ticket is something you buy knowing when that service ends. A movie that you buy is also a licensed product, would you have no issues with the IP holders coming in to delete it after an undefined length of time?

[thick ledge]

^ just make it really clear what your buying

people will know live service games will eventually close

thats common knowledge

[jolly sky]

If all else fails, read#piracy-requests

[fluid dome]

If I was a developer, that released a game, and it was mandated that me and my crack team of software devs had to stay on and maintain the game even after the dev cycle had ended for the game and no new content was being pushed, I would feel very ill and quit.

[dull oasis]

But not all of them actually do and they don’t actually have to

[maiden talon]

"protecting his own interests" is weird since theres nothing Thor is DIRECTLY involved in that would be affected by SKG...

[thick ledge]

thats not your choice to make

[opal bronze]

wasnt a request

[dull oasis]

Good thing that’s explicitly not what the initiative does.

[cedar shale]

Thats literally not what will happen

[jolly sky]

You should check out what it says as well lmao

[opal bronze]

yeah that doesnt count

[marble kindle]

There’s theoretically nothing wrong with protecting your own interests, but I feel as though he deliberately obscured the fact that’s what he was doing.

[jolly sky]

It literally does but ok

[fluid dome]

Explain it to me then because I'm getting no context and none of the videos covering it make any sense to me

[marble kindle]

Keyword “directly”.

[thick ledge]

my favorite SKG take is if you dont 100% agree with me, your either being malicious, or dont understand

its like no, i understand

i dont agree

lol

[split tulip]

you do realise that whatever gets passed would apply to one-man indie developers too?

[cedar shale]

Signing a ECI petition is not about semantics either, its about voicing an interest in a topic, the discussion of semantics comes after succesful signing

[thick ledge]

that should be disallowed

i agree on that

[opal bronze]

idk man if thats a bannable offense just saying that in that context i wouldnt wanna be here

[maiden talon]

how do you feel he deliberately obscured that "fact"

[thick ledge]

there should be disclaimers that its a service and not a product as well

when it is such

but saying services shouldnt exist is stupid

[spare topaz]

except that will exactly be what "left in an operable state" will entail. The progress of technology means that any game not supported to be compatible with the latest driver updates or operating system updates will not last anywhere near as long as people seem to think it does

[fluid dome]

The PlayStation Store specifically states that you're buying a license to play the games you pay for

[jolly sky]

Then don't talk about piracy, or the justification for it and you're all good

[opal bronze]

acknowledging it exists is fine is if you start going into details then yeah

[dull oasis]

“Remain in working state when support ends” so past support ending devs are off the hook.

[thick ledge]

yes and im not sure why blizzard hasnt smashed it

[spare topaz]

and when would support end?

[split tulip]

so this signgle developer would have to do whatever the "playable after end of support is" by themselves, possibly after being broke from trying and failing to develop a game. or face whatever fines or punishments that would otherwise be enforced

[thick ledge]

theyre well within thier rights to do so

[spare topaz]

how long is long enough?

[split tulip]

yes.

[dull oasis]

When they want it to end. That’s not being regulated by the initiative.

[thick ledge]

the server doesnt allow details on piracy discussion because its against discord TOS

[indigo wadi]

He wasn't obscuring. Thor is open about his stuff and his interests

Also why is pizza dough so hard to work with

[flint sinew]

you're trying too hard

[spare topaz]

except it would be my dude. every european regulation has an end date stated because otherwise it remains in place in perpetuity. so i ask you: how long do you think is long enough?

[cedar shale]

Do you actually believe the EU would be so malicious and ignorant to force an indie developer to continue updating their game???

[split tulip]

which is usually when they've run out of money, and unable to setup whet ever would happen after end of support

[marble kindle]

Failure to disclose his conflict of interest. Which I understand is a bit of an annoyance but I’m speaking about honor here. Not like. A legal requirement.

[jovial sandal]

So these devs would need to simultaneously maintain a codebase that would allow for a game to be played without their servers. What's that cost, you reckon?

[maiden talon]

ahhh yes, because everything thats not 1000% making money is slop, sane take

[indigo wadi]

Terrible

[split tulip]

yes. because it's the law and it applies equally. which is why it's important to not rush them before they're actually ready

[jovial sandal]

He repeatedly stated that he's approaching this topic as a developer, what more do you want?

[dull oasis]

It doesn’t. When the devs end their support for a game is when it should be in a working state. That’s what the initiative says.

[cedar shale]

Its almost like the EU is known for passing laws extremely slowly and carefully, you cant be serious that this is your reply

[maiden talon]

conflict of interest? its common knowledge hes a dev, its common knowledge the ONLY affiliation he has with a company producing live service games is his job with Offbrand. he brings this stuff up ALL THE TIME.

[indigo wadi]

He's a developer, talking as a developer, no interest is hidden

[maiden talon]

what conflict of interest is there?

[dull oasis]

This is just disingenuous

[split tulip]

I can see where this "gamers hate developers" tropes comes from now. how do you plan for something that can happen at any time in the future?

[jovial sandal]

Its reality. It happens right now

[spare topaz]

The machinery regulations state 10 years for support. The medical device regulations also state 10 years, and the Biocidal Products Regulations states 5. EU regulations is my day job, and I am telling you that there would be a minimum timeframe that support would be mandated under this proposal once it reaches regulatory stages

[split tulip]

? games die when they run out of money. that's how the world works

[marble kindle]

This would be common knowledge for his viewers. My concern is how many non-viewers saw his shorts about the matter and just took them as objective unbiased fact. Which I suppose you could argue isn’t his responsibility to idiot-proof everything, but unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots out there.

[dull oasis]

End of life plans can be made in advance. Far in advance.

[jovial sandal]

All they'd have to do is watch his videos that he's made on the topic, and not the cut up clips that other creators have made. It's repeated all throughout

[thick ledge]

if he created the content, its not his fault if people dont watch it

and just cliffnotes themselves

[jovial sandal]

If you think it's hidden, that only reveals that you havent actually watched his points

[indigo wadi]

"As a developer..."

[fluid dome]

A lot of xbox games are still trapped on the og xbox and that's just a very sad fate

[maiden talon]

if they cant do their own research thats on them, thats not a conflict of interest whatsoever. he doesnt hide the fact that hes a developer. he doesnt hide the fact he works for Offbrand Games. if you cant do your own research, well, Grok is available to mention to do it for you

[thick ledge]

people say conflict of interest like hes in some sort of office

lol

[maiden talon]

"you" in that sense is anyone who cant do their own research, not you specifically

[fluid dome]

Wtf is grok

[flint sinew]

pls

[split tulip]

whatever EoL plan WoW would have made in 2004, would not be feasible in 2025. game is not the same as it was then. and again, what exactly would this plan contain?

[thick ledge]

grok is dis true

[maiden talon]

https://tenor.com/view/gronk-yeah-gif-4778660

[thick ledge]

on twitter people will just reply to every post pinging the Grok AI which will then comment on the post

about its authenticity

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/yarp-hot-fuzz-gif-12386003

[marble kindle]

I consider Thor’s position to be somewhat less contentious than his opposition is making it out to be, given how he did provide full context plenty of times. But there were also plenty of instances in which he didn’t. That’s what I have a problem with. And I’m not trying to be the short form content police here, I’m not arguing about objective right and wrong, I’m arguing about honor.

[cedar shale]

The EoL plan would be figured out AFTER its been made clear that EU people are interested in game preservation legislation, not DURING a signing petition.

[fluid dome]

I keep getting booted out of twitter.com after every login on mobile so I've given up accessing the site, I'm actually barely active on any of my socials beyond discord and mostly lurk on streams and reddit kek

[cedar shale]

Im sorry but its literally not that hard to understand, the ECI is about getting the discussion STARTED, not having a final answer to EVERYTHING

[jovial sandal]

they are offering an example to illustrate a concept, not saying that it would immediately apply

[indigo wadi]

He says it numerous times. By what you're saying, he should say it in every short

[dull oasis]

People have already figured out WoWs EOL plan for them with private servers

[split tulip]

then what are signing for? it's bascially "won't sombody think of the children" then. nothing specific or a clear goal in mind, just "do something, idk"

[marble kindle]

I think that would be the most honorable thing to do.

[fluid dome]

Trial by combat to decide the fate of SKG

[split tulip]

and we've already gone over why private servers are not a good option. several times at this point I believe

[spare topaz]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2021/000006_en here is an example of another proposal to demonstrate my point: even proposals need to be clear and concise in what, why, and how they will achieve the goal they are requesting

[indigo wadi]

Oh get off your high horse. That's literally impossible to do.

Ascension

[cedar shale]

Talking about "What if x" or "But then y would happen" is completely redundant and counterproductive in getting a discussion started within the actually relevant spaces where the discussion will actually MATTER, instead of pointless "what if" scenarios when we are in a phase of figuring out whether we actually want this discussion in the first place

[dull oasis]

I’ve already went over several times why private servers don’t cause any of the problems you guys are saying because that’s not how IP law works.

[marble kindle]

People disclose sponsors in a similar way.

[cedar shale]

You are signing for "Hey EU Comission, I think this topic/issue is something I would like you guys to take a look at, would you mind doing that? Thank you"

[split tulip]

then why are companies suing those running private servers, if there were no IP issues?

[indigo wadi]

Which he does. But to expect him to say "hi, I'm a drv" in EVERY short is insane

[dull oasis]

Because you have to sue people if they’re not following IP laws? What?

[cedar shale]

Thor engaged in the topic in very bad faith from the start, and as a fan of his I am dissapointed

[jovial sandal]

he didnt, but go off, i guess

[split tulip]

I'd rather not have the EU bumble around and do their own thing. I'd rather provide them an exact plan of what I want and how, after talking to the affected parties to hash it out

[steep surge]

Lol how?

[split tulip]

that's what a copyright lawsuit is. suing someone for misusing your IP

[fluid dome]

I'm curious what you mean by this, like genuinely

[pine isle]

that's how it's been until now, and honestly? That's the most bulletproof way to do things imo
(I won't say more than that since I want to respect the server rules)

[dull oasis]

That’s literally what the initiative system is. The initiative gets signatures in order to then bring the discussion to the table to then hash it out with the effected parties

[wary drift]

Discussions about bad gaming practices are already started though. It's not like the EU parliment is somehow unaware of all the problems with gaming or preservation. It's also not like the EU Parliment lives in an alternate dimension that can only be accessed via this petition once every 12 years when the stars align.
If you're an EU citizen, you can get in contact with your representatives right now.
Their office is one e-mail/phone call away.
If this petition fails, any EU citizen can start another with better wording. They could have started one while this one was going on.

[Would You Like To Know More?]
https://european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu_en

[split tulip]

look a the the initiatives that have passed. notice a pattern?

[dull oasis]

Yes you sue people to protect your IP. Why did you bring up suing private servers as a point then?

[cedar shale]

You have very low expectations of the EU then, they are literally giving you more consumer rights than the US you do know that right?

[fluid dome]

Problem here is you're asking a bunch of people who likely have little to no experience in the industry to weigh in.

[jovial sandal]

I'm half inclined to mock up a better petition

[flint sinew]

people are allowed to have an opinion on the topic

be cordial

[split tulip]

that is suing to protect your IP. private servers are using games IP without a license

[fluid dome]

How would you word it?

[wary drift]

To be fair, providing citizens more protection than the US does is not a high bar.

[jovial sandal]

I'd have to take time to think

[dull oasis]

What pattern.

[split tulip]

yeah, and sometimes theyr'e more a burdern than a boon, especially for small companies, that have to deal with laws that were not designed with the real world in mind

[jovial sandal]

Lay out a problem, lay out the benefits of addressing the problem, and lay out a plan to do so

[fluid dome]

Although tbh I think the industry has bigger problems to address than just whether a 20 year old game needs an End of Life plan

[marble kindle]

It could be his intro (/j)
Seriously though, I feel as though disclosing that this is his opinion as a developer and not an objective fact every single time shouldn’t be necessary technically, but given that he has a massive audience and there are plenty of incurious people who will believe whatever they hear, it would be the honorable thing to do. It’s not his fault that those people exist, but they still do exist.

[split tulip]

they are specific. clear. to the point. not "we'll fix it in post"

[cedar shale]

To keep it short and simple, Thor frankly approached the topic with a bias of the US-political environment. I dont think he knew what the ECI is or how the EU does legislation in a much more slower, more careful and considerate manner compared to how the US actively damages peoples rights. There is also deleting Ross's reply comment and refusing to engage in a conversation with him. I could go deeper on it but we would be here all day and im sure its been spoken plenty about

[jovial sandal]

He's given his dev intro so many times, I have it memorized

[dull oasis]

Have you read the actual initiative?

[marble kindle]

These are my feelings on the matter, this is not objective, I value certain things that other people might not consider so important and I understand that.

[jovial sandal]

yes, I have. and the FAQ, and the page they've set up

[split tulip]

he does have law person who was involved with GDPR, aka EU legislation, working for him. I think they would let him know

[indigo wadi]

But you're suggesting it should be. Hes WELL KNOWN as a developer at this point. And if someone doesn't can do their own 5 second research or move on..

This idea he HAS to disclose it everytime when he does it regularly is redundant

[thick ledge]

its a meme in his community that he has a whole speech he does

about being a dev

[cedar shale]

Oh clearly its no the end of it, Im aware. But it doesnt make sense to split up our focus when one petition is already trying to inform the EU that there is a vested interest in the issue. Ross and other people have already been reaching out this entire time through many legal channels to get the debate started on this

[indigo wadi]

Constantly posting this is just spam at this point

[dull oasis]

Can you name an example?

[dull oasis]

So you know it does do that then?

[opal bronze]

yeah i think he should make a video about it, either double down with good reasons or change his mind on stuff where needed, thats my opinion

[green plank]

so, do we want more government regulation in gaming ... or less government regulation in gaming?

[steep surge]

Yeah he literally has Khronos tho
And how is what you described „engaging in bad faith“?

[maiden talon]

Captain Cuddles. I have a serious question for you. Do you think saying "Im going to tell people to not support this" is the same as whatever the pro SKG people have been saying in chat on twitch?

[jovial sandal]

It doesnt, because it doesnt lay out a plan of how to address the issue. You know, the third part of what I said

[weak spindle]

I just wanna play video games man

[opal bronze]

thor wants less because he doesnt trust the government iirc

[flint sinew]

NOTE: promotion of piracy goes against our rules. keep on topic, keep it friendly, or don't converse at all

[cedar shale]

Its not a high bar, but its currently the highest bar there is. The EU is about the only place thats actually punishing corporate greed with Apple, Google, Amazon and Microsoft and actually working towards their citizens interests instead of the corporate lobbyists.

[split tulip]

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2021/000006_en

stop testing cosmetics on animals in the EU.
even the title is clear and concise

[supple cedar]

My feelings on the matter are never to put full trust into a guy known for flaunting his social engineering and manipulation skills like it's a blue ribbon

[dull oasis]

Saying they should leave the game in a functional playable state isn’t addressing the issue?

[upper zephyr]

If a few videos by one streamer are enough to take down your movement, then maybe you should rethink your movement. It wasn’t that big to begin with.

[jovial sandal]

Correct, because they dont explain what that actually looks like

[fluid dome]

Trvth nvke

[split tulip]

no, cause it's incredibly vauge and can be intrepreted many ways

[maiden talon]

I feel like I cant answer this without feeling like im going to get smited by MagicallStarr

so I must refrain

[indigo wadi]

So you're just s-posting, got it

[flint sinew]

[split tulip]

the mushrooms?

[thick ledge]

sounds like investment to me cuddles

[opal bronze]

shout out papa johns

[thick ledge]

if you have an opinion on what a shittake is it means youre invested lol

[cedar shale]

Well if he was aware of it, then its frankly odd that he didnt make it clear he understood it or corrected himself, and if he learnt about it afterwards, he didnt clear his initial statements on his videos and to me atleast, still made me think he didnt understand what the point of the ECI is.

[maiden talon]

back in my day memelords used to actually be funny

[weak spindle]

Ain't that a mushroom

[green plank]

honestly my perspective comes from imagining I have a large youtube channel that I built up and whether or not id want someone to bully me into letting them use MY business that I built

[thick ledge]

ive never eaten a shitake i dont think

[jolly sky]

Yes, we're simply defending a creator, and not going into in depth discussions about the subtilties and nuances of how poorly this Initiative was drafted

[maiden talon]

yeah, but youve had a bunch /j

[green plank]

how would you all feel if you where a youtuber with 10million subs and a bunch of losers tried to control your autonomy

[marble kindle]

He knows full well how easily-manipulated the average person is. Hence why I consider his lapses in disclosure to be dishonorable.

[split tulip]

look at other ECI submissions that passed. they're all clear and state what they want to happen

[jolly sky]

Defending Thor is all that we're doing, sure sure

[jovial sandal]

other people cutting out him saying his bona fides doesn't mean that he failed to disclose them

[opal bronze]

streamchat is usually the quarantine zone for topics like this

[thick ledge]

they always do unless someone is being especially heinous

[marble kindle]

I’ve got a raging headache I’ll be back after I’ve had some sugar water

[indigo wadi]

That's the culture Thor has cultivated

[maiden talon]

general_chat is its own little world, albeit you can find a few of us there sometimes

[indigo wadi]

Like mushrooms

[green plank]

for me its not even about thor, or ross, its like an overarching 3rd thing

its about the people

[maiden talon]

Did I just see the channel list expand?

[dull oasis]

You realize it’s not up to the initiative to solve that for publishers right? It’s very clear, the game should be like how it was when support ended. The product you bought should still work. With that im done since this conversation is just circling

[jolly sky]

Yea I was being heavily facetious lmao

[flint sinew]

that word is wording, i duh get it dan

[steep surge]

But that‘s impossible to do

[cedar shale]

1. What is Khronos?

2. Its bad faith because he entered the topic being completely dead set on his view, with no room for debate at all. He did not try to make space for any doubts or clarifications and instantly went into unrealistic hypotheticals which were not the aim of the initiative at all. If he wished to learn about the movement honestly then he wouldnt be insulting it immediately at first sight, basically shitting on something people worked months/years for, and would have had talks with Ross about it instead of deleting his comment.

[jolly sky]

Face-eat-us. It's when you eat someones face

[split tulip]

I still disagree with how that would work in reality, but agree that we're just circling at this point

[fluid dome]

Nothing will happen at this point anyway bc nothing ever gets done, at least in my experience. As far as SKG goes, it's just fluff. There's no substance to it at all rn so the EU bodies won't take it seriously. No action will actually be taken unless there's considerable cause to do so. Afaik they're very reactionary anyway no?

[earnest spire]

that why both handled it wrongly

[cedar shale]

I will try and look at them later, but I do not think that looking at succesful ECI petitions should be what makes us judge whether the CURRENT petitions should be signed or not.

[upper zephyr]

If everyone who was mad at Thor for “killing” the movement went out on the internet or out on the streets to get signatures they would t have anything to complain about. They probably would have all the signatures.

[green plank]

question to people in chat, if you want a movement to happen and someone isnt interested should they be forced physically to agree with you?

yes or no

[fluid dome]

Too many people yapping online and not enough touching grass in the year of our Lord 2025

[jovial sandal]

Past success is the best indicator for future success

[green plank]

id say, no

[upper zephyr]

Yup, totally agree there. If it’s so awesome, then How could one guy kill it? Just doesn’t make sense.

[split tulip]

up to you if you want to sign it. I'm trying to highlight that you should look at other successfully works, if you want the best chance to succeed yourself

[cedar shale]

And thats a reason to misinform and discredit the movement and not sign it? And no the EU isnt just reactionary, if they were then it wouldnt take almost a decade to pass the USB-C standard

[split tulip]

and the USB-C standard is still a mess

[thorny cloud]

As someone who's trying to just find the objective angle in all of this, here's the problem for me:

To even attempt to truly understand who is "right" and who is "wrong" in this requires me spending hours up to my neck in internet drama, and I just don't have the emotional bandwidth for that right now x_x

[jovial sandal]

he was repeatedly asked for his opinion on the topic, and he provided it

[cedar shale]

Im sorry how did Ross handle it wrongly? Ross left a comment which got deleted by Thor. Yet Ross didnt make a video to feed into the drama at that time.

[flat moat]

It was like every 5th TTS about a year ago

I remember that very vividly

[jovial sandal]

like others pointed out, if moderate opposition to the petition was sufficient to kill it, then maybe it wasn't quite as sound as people make it out to be

[flint sinew]

maybe we should take a break yeah

[frozen sonnet]

Alright real debate time, Gummie bears or gummie worms

[fluid dome]

Thor can't even sign it anyway, he's not EU. Personally, idk if this was something he should have stuck his oar in tbh

[flat moat]

It was either constantly get that TTS or create a video and put it to sleep for him

[frozen sonnet]

[flint sinew]

worms

[jovial sandal]

worms are clearly superior

[flat moat]

Try gummy sharks

[frozen sonnet]

[ripe minnow]

sugar free gummy bears i recommend to the new people here

[jolly sky]

https://tenor.com/view/dan-avidan-danny-avidan-gamegrumps-game-grump-jello-gif-17167322

A bear

The size of a small child

[jovial sandal]

it wasnt misinformed, the version of his argument that Ross presents is not the argument Thor made

[flint sinew]

those be words fr fr

[upper zephyr]

Ross also can’t even sign it. It’s a weird battle for him to fight as well.

[fluid dome]

A movement started by an American, misrepresented by an American for... checks notes EU citizens.

[glossy crypt]

I’m a heathen and I like gummy frogs

[fluid dome]

Deeply funny to me

[indigo wadi]

He can. He's in poland

[frozen sonnet]

@flint sinew how’s your day going?

[flat moat]

Force the change through another nation's political system and hope your system follows through

[cedar shale]

It really doesnt. There was a grassroots movement to get the EU interested into looking into game preservation, and Thor's comment and videos heavily misconstrued what the ECI even is, or what its about, and didnt try to create space for debate or conversation about it.

[upper zephyr]

It’s almost like Ross should have found and made a European the leader of the movement and he would have been the US leader if/when that was a possibility.

[flat moat]

Is he an EU citizen?

[steep surge]

1. Khronos is his Lead Moderator and also a literal lawyer based in the UK that knows about EU laws.

2. Have you seen how people treated him and the community the very second he said he doesn‘t agree with them?
   I was there at that particular stream and watched it live all those months ago. He made his points very clear.
   Also I bet there could have been a productive discussion if y‘all hadn‘t instantly been so hostile about it.
   And if Ross‘ arguments and his videos weren‘t so…well…silly. His initial video made it clear he didn‘t understand how such a thing as the initiative would be viable practically. It still doesn‘t make any sense.

[green plank]

also by forcing content creators who arnt interested in it to promote it 😎

[indigo wadi]

Of Poland, yeah, to my understanding

[flint sinew]

oh it's going

[cedar shale]

He shouldnt. He should had either not engaged in it, or just say "Hey there is this EU-only thing going on right now. Some of you might be interested in it"

[pine crystal]

But also does that excuse (possible) willing ignorance from Thor? Regardless of "if its good how did he kill it" we can agree on a few things. Thor is GREATLY trusted by tons of people, and his opinion influences people. So regardless of if Stop Killing Games is dead, his video still had a hand in that at the minimum. He at bare minimum influenced the situation in a negative way with literal dis/misinfo. Thats not okay.

I still love Thor btw

[wary drift]

Class's answer: https://youtu.be/bl8Z7Dl7P9A?t=579

[pine crystal]

No hate

[ripe minnow]

Ross is in the EU last time i checked but the petitions aren't in his name either since he's not a EU citizenship yet

[split tulip]

he was asked by chat for his opinion on it, so he did

[flat moat]

His wife is Polish, don't know if he's fully converted across or only has the spousal visa

[frozen sonnet]

[pine isle]

Respecting the worm :3

[indigo wadi]

Ah

[green plank]

moist critical is over 10x larger than thor. why thor

[flint sinew]

we respect gummy worms here

[steep surge]

Lol just because he isn‘t in the EU means he shouldn‘t say his opinions?
Should we EU people also not say anything on american-only going-ons?

[clever void]

Hey do we know why they deleted the VODs from before today's power outage? Thor answered my TTS while I was sleeping so I clicked the link and it said the VOD was no longer available.

[indigo wadi]

Pizza

[flat moat]

Issues with people raiding

[frozen sonnet]

The attack of the mushrooms clogged up the server

[fluid dome]

My history teacher used to have a saying:

Whenever America sneezes, the rest of the world gets a cold.

A pretty apt saying in today's climate

[clever void]

Oh dang. Ok thanks for the info. It's a real shame he is having to deal with this again. So ridiculous. Have a great day/evening, everyone.

[indigo wadi]

Doesn't wanna be used as farm bait

[fluid dome]

Imma gobble this up

[frozen sonnet]

I’m hungry now

Thanks

[clever void]

That also makes a lot of sense

[cedar shale]

Yeah I have. I may have a "new" tag on me but I have been watching his content for a year before this drama started.

I dont know exactly how hostile each side has been, but I have watched each video involved and I still stand by the fact that Thor acted in bad faith about the topic. Sure Ross may have given the wrong impression but that does not justify how Thor insulted and degraded the amount of work that Ross put in for the movement.

And most importantly, if Thor actually wanted to understand and engage in the topic. He wouldnt have deleted ross's comment and he wouldnt have outright refused to talk with Ross. But instead he made two videos on it continuing to make misinformation about the ECI completely unchallenged because its a video that he controls.

[indigo wadi]

Yw

[green plank]

how about this as a thought experiment, what would you all want thor to say on his own youtube channel?

[upper zephyr]

Even if Thor changes his mind and agrees that stk is something that should be passed, then what? That’s going to get 500k signatures? Thor should just ignore this and let them solve their own problems.

[frozen sonnet]

Please share

[marble kindle]

It’s worth mentioning that as far as I can tell, that initiative wasn’t even close to passing. Thor may have behaved in a dishonorable fashion, but he did NOT kill SKG.

[frozen sonnet]

That he loves me 🥺

[green plank]

lol

[steep surge]

Weird

[frozen sonnet]

Thank you

[cedar shale]

Fair point, but lets be real the EU is in a far better state for political debate than the US. The US are debating and commenting on issues that the EU have solved over 10 years ago.

[green plank]

guys i couldnt get george lopez to promote SKG i think we are screwed 🤦‍♀️

[frozen sonnet]

So this is on you

[green plank]

YES

[frozen sonnet]

I’ll calling all the YouTubers

Kendo is at fault

[green plank]

i 100% would love that mantle

its me >:)

[flint sinew]

[frozen sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/call-peta-gif-12042022242327684927

[earnest spire]

should have talk in private

[green plank]

i killed video games 😼 im discord dark mode

[flat moat]

Hello mr youtube, Kendo is the true SKG killer

[frozen sonnet]

You’re…. You’re evil kendo….

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/gingerbread-monster-shrek-gif-5917178

[indigo wadi]

Thor didn't make a video to feed the drama, but Ross certainly did

[frozen sonnet]

Kendo you gotta make a YouTube video now

Take responsibility for what you’ve done

[green plank]

heh, i fooled them all to, they think it was thor 😼

[cedar shale]

Oh I agree, its almost like ross said in his comment under Thor's video that he is open for a discussion. Almost like he is inviting him for a talk, whether in private or in public.

[green plank]

i will make a video saying "i love dead games i LOVVVEEE IT" will be the vid

[spark dune]

I agree with Thor's take on it, but he definitely came out way too strong from the get-go. Calling ross a 'greasy-car-salesman' was clearly uncalled for, and if he'd been a bit less acidic from the start he'd probably have a lot more people supporting him.

[frozen sonnet]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-grin-evil-smile-smirk-haha-gif-6403290434734800133

[indigo wadi]

Ross could of done it BEFORE

[green plank]

lol

[marble kindle]

Even if he had gone full evil and used his powers of social engineering to run the reputation of SKG into the ground for his own gain, I doubt he could have managed to command a full half-million EU signatures.

[flint sinew]

i almost choked on my water seeing this 😭

[ripe minnow]

yeah i think that went too far

[indigo wadi]

That's not feeding the drama. Try harder

[marble kindle]

Why are there so many dragons in your username bro

[split tulip]

he was asked his opinion om it, so he gave it

[upper zephyr]

I know Thor says he doesn’t need more sleep, but sometimes I watch the stream and think… this guy. He needs more sleep. That comment of his seems like one he made on not a lot of sleep.

[indigo wadi]

Am scalie

[split tulip]

then you are not a true master yet

[frozen sonnet]

OH NOOO IM SORRY

[marble kindle]

It was not a polite thing to say.

[flat moat]

Can you make scale armour from your own scales? or does your shedding constitute as a chainmail replacement?

[earnest spire]

truly a turning point in a chance of change

[cedar shale]

Thor made two videos filled with misinformation and deleted ross's comment inviting to talk to clarify things.

Ross made an update video on the movement, 10 months later, and addresses thor's comments.

[indigo wadi]

Yes

[steep surge]

Dude how can you even discuss something productively with someone like Ross. Especially after his silly takes in his first video.
No amount of work gives him a pass if his initiative and points are just plain bad and silly.
They had no practical solutions that would remotely work at all. It shows he didn‘t even think about it from a dev‘s perspective. How do you even engage in discussion with someone who refuses to think about your side?

Also, „acting in bad faith“ is not what Thor‘s behaviour was. I dunno if you use the expression wrong or if you genuinely believe this but „acting in bad faith“ means intentionally deceiving someone (for probably ulterior motives). He never acted in bad faith lol

[indigo wadi]

Thor presented his points, that's not feeding the drama

[flat moat]

https://tenor.com/view/eidechse-hoodie-walking-lizard-gecko-gif-25656582

[cedar shale]

Before what exactly?

[split tulip]

he could have talked to developers before his initial video and the starting the EU initiative

[spark dune]

Cmon dude, that's not exactly fair

[green plank]

just out of curiosity, how is ross feeling about everything right now

[indigo wadi]

I love this ty

[split tulip]

talking to relevent parties before starting a petition? is that not fair?

[green plank]

has he posted any vids or updates

[upper zephyr]

Did you watch his video? He wants to quit skg.

[indigo wadi]

When Ross was getting it going, he could have dm'd Thor to talk about it

[spark dune]

talking to thor in specific? No, that's clearly not fair.

[upper zephyr]

During the middle of the anti PS rant, Ross also claims he’s done with skg, so…. Whatever man.

[green plank]

oh, man i get the vibe he probably did not want things to get so violent or to be involved in anything like this

i dont want anyone to actually feel bad

[earnest spire]

so who is leading skg now

[marble kindle]

I mean, you don’t know his motivations. For all we know, this was his master plan.

[jolly sky]

https://tenor.com/view/kekeflipnote-fox-gif-18033585

[split tulip]

that's why I said developers. didn't have to be him specifically. to create petition that at least gave some considerations to the concens of developers, instead of just steamrolling them

[fluid dome]

Weak mental tbh

[steep surge]

You think Thor‘s some evil villain with a master plan? For what goal exactly?

[split tulip]

to steal the moon

[green plank]

i think the reality is that thor, and ross, are both normal people that had a disagreement

[marble kindle]

This was not a serious comment.

[fluid dome]

Obviously to make blockgame and heartbound the only games on the market /s

[jolly sky]

It would have been....wise to get the opinions of multiple people from all sides (consumers, devs etc) before going whole hog on SKG. It felt like more of a reactionary response to The Crew

[green plank]

im pretty sure if we where all at a bar together everyone would have fun and no one would be evil lol

[steep surge]

Honestly, I don‘t really understand what‘s so bad about games disappearing anyway. Old things die, new things come along.
I understand that people hold nostalgia and like old games. I also understand people paid for stuff and don‘t want to lose it but you‘ve had plenty of time to play the game you bought.
I don‘t hold onto an old, worn out pair of shoes even if I paid for it and I really liked them.
Let go. It‘s fine.

[fluid dome]

Its not even that good of a game lel

[marble kindle]

A million archivists scream in anguish

[indigo wadi]

people have an unhealthy obsession about holding onto things

[upper zephyr]

The way Ross spun the crew saga was that it was his only chance to get this kind of consumer protection passed. When in reality, games and software are being shut down constantly with no recourse for the users. This was not a one off.

[steep surge]

Oh sorry!
I thought you genuinely meant that.
I‘ve seen people today accuse him of this being some elaborate scheme so I thought you were serious

[indigo wadi]

He should of used it as a launching pad instead of w/e he attempted

[marble kindle]

I feel as though a social engineer would have a better scheme than that. He is a professional schemer, after all.

[fluid dome]

The elaborate scheme was the diabolical practice of making petitions specific, didn't you know?

[green plank]

all influencers are social engineers 😐

[river cargo]

Honestly I support objectives behind the initiative but the way Ross, Louis Rossman, muta, Charlie are handling it is gross

[green plank]

its in the job title lol

[fluid dome]

*grifters

[river cargo]

Ross and co have been too confrontationao

[steep surge]

I mean, that‘s historically significant things tho like old maps and stuff. Not like…products.
I could totally see a very culturally important game to be „archived“ for later reference but not all of them for every consumer‘s private enjoyment

[split tulip]

archiving the code would not convey the experience of actually being there in the moment. I think the next best thing is to capture video of the game while it's still alive, so others can get an understanding of what is was like. example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLQJ8sStYlg

[green plank]

i think thor is cool and is a net positive considering the robust amount of stuff he has done for the game industry, and ross seems fine i think i saw a few youtube vids he made years ago

[fluid dome]

Reactionary channels are arguably the worst content type on the platform atm, second only to AI slop.

Pyro, Muta et all, they're all trash

Imho

[green plank]

both are fine

[split tulip]

I've seen some videos of people exploring dead MMOs and it's very creepy. these places were made for players, so seeing them empty is just unsettling

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/both-agree-yes-good-gif-4591420

[green plank]

honestly id argue the game jams likely lead to many people getting into game dev

[frozen sonnet]

But you’re not…. You did all this remember….

[green plank]

(:

JHAAHAH

yes

i love the strife

[upper zephyr]

My take on the movement is that instead of being called “stop killing games” it should have been called “make forever games” and build a framework for game devs to release games in such a way that they could last forever if people want to keep playing them after the dev is gone.

[frozen sonnet]

Real

[cedar shale]

1. "Especially after his silly takes in his first video" - I didnt know we as humans arent allowed to be silly and must be extremely serious and professional 24/7, 365 days of the year. Sorry Ross, but you have been invalidated due to a bit of humor.

2. "They had no practical solutions that would remotely work at all" - Its almost like thats not his job to do. We dont need practical solutions to prove why we need legislation to provide clean and drinking water to people.
   The ECI is about informing the EU that this is a issue we want looked at. People want better consumer rights and game preservation, thats legit it.

3. "It shows he didn‘t even think about it from a dev‘s perspective." - Except he probably did. But if he didnt, he doesnt have to. Its literally the EU's job to bring in experts and actors from all the involved parts of the issue so they can present their views and opinions. THATS WHERE THE DEBATE STARTS, THATS WHERE WE DRAW THE HYPOTHETICALS.

4. "How do you even engage in discussion with someone who refuses to think about your side?" - You do that by not starting to insult someone who you just found on the internet, or delete their comment inviting for a discussion. Its literally not that hard.

Maybe I am using the term "bad faith" term wrong here, but I stand by that Thor did not enter the topic with the intent of mutual understanding. He glossed over things and made alot of misinformation and hypotheticals that had no place to be made, and he made no effort to try to understand it better and stuck to his opinion

[fluid dome]

My favourite part of all this is when thor said "thorbin time" and he thorbed over everyone

[green plank]

there is a timeline where that probably happened

[flint sinew]

[split tulip]

would be interesting if you could opt-in to have your game archived/kept alive after support has ended. "opt-in" is the main part here

[green plank]

and everyone was cool and friendly

[river cargo]

Muta way better than pyro though

[frozen sonnet]

Don’t remind me of Thorbin time I cried for 3 days

[flat moat]

Honestly? We should try petition this to steam and make it a badge of quality where the developer can state that the game WILL have a post end of live service patch. This would be optional at first but very noticeable on some Live games

[indigo wadi]

An easy win for politicians is such...a take

[green plank]

i have a hot take, ai content technically involves more creativity than react content 🚶‍♀️‍➡️

[upper zephyr]

Yep. 👍 only gabe can really fix this problem, not the eu or us congress.

[cedar shale]

Ah yes humor is not allowed

[green plank]

ai is in theory making something new, react is you taking my stuff and going "uh huh, yea, ok"

[indigo wadi]

You cannot tell me that was humour

that was a legitimate point

[cedar shale]

Maybe it wasnt, but I do understand what he was trying to say there

[flat moat]

If we can make it popular in the industry enough, it could be ratified down the line when the next petition makes it

[indigo wadi]

if that was humour, Ross needs lessons on how to deliver

when you're trying to present something serious, humour isn't the time or place for it

[flat moat]

Never make fun of whomever you are advertising to

You never joke about the interviewer in a job application or business meeting, why here then?

[upper zephyr]

It should be opt in, but if forever software and games is popular, then people will just do it by default

It’s like open source, not all software has to be open source but personally I always try to use it

[flat moat]

Yeah, they have their setbacks but for those that truly value them, they will use them

[green plank]

"🤓 kendo you dont understand react content is transformative" , yea ok like my body transforms food into shit 😐

🚶‍♀️‍➡️

[fluid dome]

The easy win comment felt more like he wanted to rush it through and think about specifics later

[split tulip]

that is pretty much what the whole petition felt like to me

[wet storm]

Mine transforms food into nutrients you should get that checked out

[flat moat]

Yeah, it pretty much created a hole in the ship

[green plank]

lol

im just being silly

[wet storm]

Sorry I got no idea of the context I just got here and that's the first message I saw

[green plank]

long story short, thor killed all video games forever :[

[earnest spire]

a sign of a captain charging a ship through a rock and giving it to another person

[wet storm]

Muh vidya

[flint sinew]

[fluid dome]

I don't think I have a side I'm gonna take tbh bc this was as an easy situation to avoid with clear and precise communication. Looking over it now, it was handled pretty unprofessionally across the board I think.

[wet storm]

[cedar shale]

Yeah its almost like after a ECI gets enough signing and gets verified as a valid petition, the EU Commission will figure out the specifics by inviting all the relevant experts related to the issue and get a debate going on

[split tulip]

how dare you not take a side and riot in the streets lol

[flint sinew]

choosing oranges over apples right now!

[river cargo]

It's unprofessional because everyone dogpiled on thor

[frozen sonnet]

Gaslighting…. We know it was you

[fluid dome]

Bro did not help his case lmao

[flint sinew]

🤨

[green plank]

😈

[fluid dome]

Easiest thing to do was to say nothing on the initiative

[flint sinew]

nah i gotta see you in rock paper scissors now kendo /s

[cedar shale]

Making very confident claims and leaving no room for discussion, and then getting called out on it is not getting dogpilled imo

[green plank]

✂️ (:

[flint sinew]

🪨

[fluid dome]

Strawmanning and moving goalposts too

[green plank]

damnit

my message was blocked lol

[earnest spire]

the people problem

[green plank]

i basically said "dang it"

[split tulip]

and yet it didn't pass. we've been discussing how it could have have been done better. maybe a future petition will pass if they do listen to developers and figure out a good compromise

[fluid dome]

Also reading comprehension issue

[steep surge]

I‘m only going to reply one last time one this but to clarify.

1. Silly not in „jokingly/funny“ but silly as in ridiculous. More like laughably bad.

2. Yes, it would have been. If you demand something, especially something this large, atleast spent a few minutes to think about if your request is even possible in the first place. Demanding something impossible and something that infringes on the rights of others (copyright) is insane.

For the example of drinking water: playing old games is not a human right, drinking water is but for the sake of argument: this would be like demanding to ship drinking water to Venus. An impossible demand.

3. And again, yes, he has to if he wants anyone to take him seriously and engage in productive discussion. And also if he wants to demand something so big and so serious to the literal EU. It shows a complete lack of effort to even try to understand the topic which borders on mocking game devs. Ross’ takes were bad enough to warrant a more hostile response to his first video of the initiative.

[viscid kraken]

Drama? Not in our CHRISTIAN DISCORD SERVER

[frozen sonnet]

Hi Khronose

[arctic needle]

Eat the duck!

[jolly sky]

Lmao whuddup Khronos

[flint sinew]

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/donkey-kong-ok-cool-gif-27031679

[steep surge]

Henlo!

[spice dome]

So he got mad that a dead game was finally buried, made initiative to EU "fix this shit" and left? Zero groundwork or research

[flint sinew]

somehow i hear this

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/yoshiki-yoshiki-nakajima-nakajima-yoshiki-中島-ヨシキ-donkey-kong-gif-7094266022134891928

[cedar shale]

Its literally the EU's job to find a compromise.

You dont start a ECI demanding the abolishment of Planned Obsolescene and try and consider the viewpoint of the company who is creating the problem in the first place

[green plank]

that sparkly mod color is sick

im assuming thats a mod thing

[steep surge]

It isss! Its so pretty

[wet storm]

Server boost feature on Discord

Pretty kewl

[teal zodiac]

May your drama chip and shatter

[flint sinew]

[fluid dome]

May you be forever inconvenienced by furniture that's misaligned by 3.4cm

[wet storm]

Agony of the feet

[fluid dome]

Pain of the legos

[flat moat]

May you both have a merry crimmas

[spice niche]

I came here, read few comments, and now I feel bad. That's enough internet for me for today, I'm going to touch some grass (and mow it tbh)

[indigo wadi]

"This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.

The initiative does not seek to acquire ownership of said videogames, associated intellectual rights or monetization rights, neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state."

This isn't very clear or concise of what it wants to accomplish.

[flint sinew]

circles folks

still in circles

[wet storm]

People tell me wrestling's fake but I've seen dude being powerbombed on a pile of legoes and you can't fake that

[flint sinew]

[indigo wadi]

it's fake in the sense that it's scripted

[split tulip]

you should probably talk to manufacturers are figure out what their concerns are, so you don't accidentally cripple the industry e.g. requiring light bulbs to glow forever. doing so means they are more likely to help you and to promote your message and get signatures

[untold seal]

The guy is just going to reply " But the ECI will figure it out ! "

[flint sinew]

yo dont talk about my entertainment like that

[viscid kraken]

“Trust politicians, they’ll sort it out”

[river cargo]

honestly best way forward

[steep surge]

@Grok sort this out for me

[river cargo]

wait for thor to create his own initiative to save games that is much more extensive and concise

[arctic needle]

Khronos will fix it

[viscid kraken]

[flint sinew]

smh giving khronos more work

[viscid kraken]

I just want to keep politics out of my video games

[fluid dome]

Fellow Brit understands

[viscid kraken]

Consumers should shape the market. Stop buying licenses if you don’t want the license business model to be a thing

[split tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/warcraft-gaming-gif-27702118

[wet storm]

But then the corporations win

[spice dome]

Oh, they can 100% make a light bulb glow a 100 years. It will be dim af though.

[steep surge]

FOR THE EMPEROR!
Is that even technically politics? Ah whatever

[wet storm]

Nah the Imperium has no politics

Only very huge bombs

[viscid kraken]

https://tenor.com/view/spice-spicysad-squad-talk-man-beard-gif-16942488

[split tulip]

that's not good enough if the law says "forever". the law is pretty strict like that, so you should probably get it right the first time

[wet storm]

Green is best

There's a story of an ork warlord that really liked his gun

so he went back into the past to merc his old self and have two of the same gun

[spice dome]

I thought he wanted to go to space, not get high on spice

[fluid dome]

@viscid kraken am I in trouble legally if I dodge the TV license hypothetically?

[upper zephyr]

Dim, and expensive to buy and run. But sure. It will last

[steep surge]

I mean…isn‘t it technically politics but like with only one party? And you can only vote for Big E?

[viscid kraken]

https://tenor.com/view/theyre-the-same-picture-the-office-pam-the-office-us-gif-20757621

[wet storm]

Space and spice are one letter apart

Coincidence?

[steep surge]

Hah funny that
Getting high on spice is a requirement for going to space, no?

[split tulip]

the "planned obsolesce" of lightbulbs is acutally kinda interesting and is probably not what most would think it is for. even involves a cartel

[untold seal]

I work in a wet lab dealing with stem cell work and blindness (AMD). We get so many interns, new hires, potential phd students who honestly think their vague hypothesis with very little support on how to potentially, maybe find a way to reverse blindness is utterly dependent on us, the supervisors to approve it first.

My habibi, I am not going to approve anything when the literature search you did was sole comprised on the first two pages of Google scholar and predatory journals

[viscid kraken]

Someone shouldn’t throw TV licenses so yes if you have to dodge one you should be okay

[cedar shale]

1. Even if it was laughably bad, I dont find that justified to insult and discredit a mans effort to make a change alongside the hundreds of thousands of people who are supporting the idea

2. Alright the drinking water analogy was a bad one I will admit. My main point is that the ECI is about showing that there is an INTEREST in an issue, not that it has to be solved THIS SPECIFIC WAY.

3. You do realize a productive discussion involves being "open" and "learning from the other side"? Ross has spoken with so many people while trying to run this movement solo and he has offered to speak to Thor. I find it very disingenuous to dismiss people just cause of a few points or comments when they have put so much effort into something

As much as I would like to continue discussing, I need to begin heading to bed ngl

[fluid dome]

Ah well what if I'd rather not pay for one in order to watch Doctor Who

[spice dome]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light

[upper zephyr]

Oh thank you, I’ve had enough numbered lists in chat today.

[viscid kraken]

you know the answer

[viscid kraken]

1. Understandable.
2. 🫘
3. Here is a cat

[fluid dome]

Don't pay the BBC a license fee, got it thanks

[cedar shale]

How the hell does "to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state." not sound clear?

[steep surge]

Bailey!

[spice dome]

The longer they live for, the lower lumens per watt gets. There's a reason the bulbs were like that

[steep surge]

Such a big chonker

[wet storm]

HE HAS WHITE SOCKS

[viscid kraken]

He gets floofier when he wants attention

[viscid kraken]

All 4 socks and the front toooo

[fluid dome]

It is now catposting time. This is Patchy, she is 14

[indigo wadi]

I'm talking about the entire thing.

[upper zephyr]

If you really want a light bulb to last longer then just don’t turn it off silly.

[steep surge]

Floofier and he screams
Did you give him cuddle time in the armchair today? As he demanded?

[viscid kraken]

I did indeed

[fluid dome]

The bombastic side eye gets me everytime

[wet storm]

This is buttercup, she's an oldie, no idea on the age.

[split tulip]

catposting

[steep surge]

This is mine, Charlie. He‘s 11 now

[fluid dome]

Hecking chonker

[ancient timber]

@cedar shale 'precciate your effort, it saddens me seeing the current state of discussion coming from "a fellow hacker" like Thor. But we'll come back in the future, we'll have to accept the death of art, maybe try to salvage it through reverse engineering efforts.

[split tulip]

if things get hairy: post furball

[arctic needle]

Beans with the photobomb

[winter sierra]

Bailey has cute beans and white toes!!!

[fluid dome]

I also have a husky