streamchat

[wintry pond]

1st thing we need to know, what portion of all game sales are in EU, if its a big one, then companies will not just decide to lose it

[old ruin]

the much easier thing to reach for is 'disable phone-home authorization in DRM'

That's 2 hours of an intern's time

that is in reach for everyone

[frank geyser]

I'm from Finland, thats a part of EU, or I live on the island out in the Baltic Sea called Åland, We are a part of Finland, but treated like we are not a part of EU.

Finland are allowed to use Sonys PlayStation Network, we aint. According to Sony.

So how shall we stand against this EU thing then?

[old ruin]

if the game still doesn't function with that, well, the game's just plain dead, because it was genuinely reliant on those online servers

[wintry pond]

EU is generally regarded as European union, not geographical europe.

[brittle crow]

Are the majority of games released on steam offline only games that do not need dev support to run?

[graceful dirge]

When my internet dropped and i couldn't play Gran Turismo 7 and only 1 race i genuine was upset, this is not needed if you ask me, PlayStation disks have their security and my account too, look at Netflix for example you can also download series for offline use...

[forest glacier]

Thor is gone for a week? Time to bring up old sh:t.................Like how the UI used to look at one point

[old ruin]

Netflix is not compelled to offer you that

Netflix chooses to

and no, I don't actually think it's reasonable to compel that games not connect to the internet

I happen to be a fan of some online games.

[summer night]

thats dec time i think

[graceful dirge]

Yes, why can't game studios not be more customer friendly, they make more money as the music and film industry these days...

[summer night]

before the ferrets blown up

[graceful dirge]

Some smaller game development studios manage to be more customer friendly then the giants...

[old ruin]

Not a matter of legal principle or generally a place we compel things by force of law

[forest glacier]

December 16th 2:18am CDT

[frank geyser]

Same with Steam, Origin and other launchers, you can play them in Offline mode for like 30 days, then you have to sign in again to "verify" that you still owns the games in your library. But some games won't be able to play offline even if it seems that it's OK for Steam.

[forest glacier]

Dont mind me getting channel points and hype trains while watching on YT LOL

[graceful dirge]

I understand after a certain time the online player from Grans Turismo will stop, but it's in general played by most people single player, then i expect them to be clear their lisences expire and this is put on the boxes of games...

[wintry pond]

but its not up to you

[old ruin]

I said this before: It is not a consumer protection matter that you do not have a 100% accurate forecast of the life of a thing

Again: It is a consumer protection matter that games that are dead have DRM checks and the like disabled.

There is a notional right that can be reasonably well protected, and I would agree with

there is a notional right that is broadly not going to be considered justified

[graceful dirge]

Ok but in the case of Gran Turismo they actual already state a date when it's going to stop working... Why was this not told to me as a consumer because in EU laws you need to state something like this because it can make you decide not to buy a game

[frank geyser]

GT games also needs to buy there own license from the car manufacturers to be able to legally put them in the game, if they don't (like the crew) buy a new license for them, the car manufacturers can legally sue them for this. So then it's better and easier to just kill the game, specially if no one are playing the game, people don't pay for it to stay up. So the developers just bleed money on it

[old ruin]

I fundamentally do not believe you that a service needs to have a completely defined end date in EU law

because if that were in EU law it would already be done broadly

[wintry pond]

you cant define end date of a life service game when its released.

[frank geyser]

Each game that comes out with a new game like every year, have already planned on an end of date for this game.

Just look at F1, NHL, FIFA, CoD and so on

[old ruin]

A lot of businesses and services have a planned end of service date

this isn't something that is disclosed to consumers as a matter of law though

[summer night]

EU doesn't have a law that you must know when a game will end you have to advise of a server shutdown that is the EU law.

[old ruin]

It's not actually germane to the consumer's rights

what can be germane is a minimum of service, or similar

[summer night]

and its impractical if they did

WoW didnt know if it would last 5 years or 20

[wintry pond]

they dont have a definitive end date, they have a works case scenario end date, and thats different. If the game is a huge success and is making a lof of money, no company will shut it down.

[frank geyser]

The biggest problem is that each game launcher or XBOX or even Sony says "buy this game" not "buy a license to play this game" when we pay money for it and add it to our profiles

[old ruin]

No, the terms of service are pretty clear

you're buying a license

you're just not reading the terms

[wintry pond]

but on the store is says buy the game, not a license.

[summer night]

which terms are you looking 🙂

[forest glacier]

I wonder who's got streamchat and who's got general_chat.. I had no idea streamchat was warm, thought it would be dead in here..

[frank geyser]

then this entire SKG are stupid and needs to be out down

[old ruin]

I agree, but there is one point they themselves raise where I'm sympathetic. They just... fundamentally don't understand what we as a society do about art

(There are consumer protections that should be strengthened here, IMO, which is part of why I find them infuriating)

[summer night]

lailah sorry i just got here which side do you fall on 🙂

[fossil sapphire]

loaded question tho

it shouldnt matter.

none of this matters

[old ruin]

Does it still? Because carefully reading through steam UIs a bit, I don't see the store saying we're buying a game. Probably it does on a sale's ad copy, but the closest is that steam gift cards will let you give the gift of game (Which is true whether they sell the license or the game.)

[graceful dirge]

To compare things, when i bought in 2007 a Office packet i also bought a license to use that software, after 10y they removed the support for the product and the limited online functionality is removed
Why can they do this with games and then i'm not talking about online games, they even do it with games that are perfectly playable single player...

[wintry pond]

its their product and they decide what to do with it.

[summer night]

okay so lets address this first which game example?

[old ruin]

Well, in the sense that regardless of my opinions I'm at worst discussing an opinion on a largely irrelevant forum for it, over an initiative doomed to irrelevance even should it reach basic success, with people who I will likely forget about within a week, yes, I agree, but I do think the ideas raised have some basic relevance

[old ruin]

I largely find the idea behind stop killing games wrong-headed, and think it's more likely to distract from vaguely plausible consumer rights goals. The things they want are broadly things we do not do (despite having had the ability to do them, in society at large, for generations), or rights we do not grant, and most of the questions they raise are going to be rightly mocked because they do not know these things.

I also don't believe they've raised any novel reasons why these questions should be answered differently, because they don't seem to realize they're not new questions at all.

[graceful dirge]

Let's take for example the way Gran Turismo shut down games https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-sport-end-of-life-20230929/
I think this is a fair deal to me, there is a EOL strategy, in reason this is just what Ross Scott asks, how he worded it is another thing that blows my mind, i don't agree on his take to make publishers release server code

[summer night]

okay thank you both 🙂 it helps to see where chat is

right so with that being said your complaints are around that the servers in Live service games are not mentioned but the EOL Stratery in Gran Turismo is a good way forward?

[old ruin]

Gran Turismo announced its end of service 3 months before game end, same as The Crew

[summer night]

okay lets discuss

im not attacking here

just i have been dealing with both sides all week

[old ruin]

There are in fact relevant protections around End of Service, yes. That is a substantially smaller ask than what you said before

Which was "I should get to know what the end of life date is on game purchase"

Which is not a thing we do. It's not germane to consumer protections

what is germane is if the thing is going to be here in a couple of months

[graceful dirge]

And in this case i'm more on the Thor side of the conversation, he made valid points where i stand behind, it just becomes tricky when you know new version of games are based on their old engines and backend in most cases, asking game developers to releases that code could harm their new products and is just unfair, i even told Ross maybe he should start asking to build an open source game backend and put in examples of React, where companies and users get mutual benefit from and that way they can implement this on game creation (10y after is just insane to ask them to rewrite the game) but idk if he misunderstood me but as far as i understanded he only cares about "The Crew" if you ask me...

[old ruin]

I actually think The Crew would be an amazing example for him if he realized it was one of the worst possible examples

there's a lot of very specific problems with a lot of broad asks that he could address with exceptions for why this specific thing would be fine

EG "Yes, actually, the licenses likely do render this one a huge problem, so we would want to create a framework for specific exceptions to maintenance..."

Steelmen are sometimes genuinely useful in their own right (In addition to being useful to understand in general)

[graceful dirge]

Now in the case of "the Crew" i asked some people to show their disk version box, i think it's not fair to customers to withheld the info the cars in the game are only licensed for 10y, stuff like that should be on the box so consumers know this...

[old ruin]

Nah

that's exactly the kind of thing you don't get to know as a consumer

If a club has rented their building for 10 years, you don't get to know that

[graceful dirge]

If it's something that would steer a buyer away from buying the game then it's mandated be EU laws

[old ruin]

No, the relevant EU law specifies some kinds of information That would change the consumer's mind

Because theoretically, anything could change my mind

[graceful dirge]

I wouldn't have bought the game in 2021 if i had know the lisences where only valid until 2024 if you get me...

[old ruin]

I might really hate it if you had the place decorated by a bald guy

and never have come to your club

but I don't have a right to that information

[lime minnow]

I would argue that it should be a practice done instead of hand waving saying it isn't germane or relevant. Having a stated EoL isn't a bad thing. Informing consumers of their purchases isn't irrelevant to consumers.

You can always push back EoL too

[old ruin]

That's exactly what makes it nonsense noise to mandate though

"We plan to have this game for 5 years"

they're still gonna kill it if it totally tanks

they're still gonna extend it if it's doing gangbusters

Mandating this information by law is largely irrelevant

[lime minnow]

Extending it is fine. I do think there should be repercussions for not delivering on stated products.

[old ruin]

Then everyone's just gonna say 1 or 2 years

Meaningless noise

If you mandate that they give a minimum target, it doesn't mean jack

[lime minnow]

I'd rather have that than nothing

Which we currently have nothing

[old ruin]

Hell

they could say "We expect to close this tommorrow"

and then "We're pleasantly surprised and announce it'll live for oh let's say three months"

No, no, silly of me

"It'll live for oh let's say six months"

As a rule, don't make meaningless laws

[lime minnow]

Why would I purchase a game from a creator who is being as scummy as that, however?

[old ruin]

I don't know, darling, you were already buying their games in this framework

What I'd rather have is a small but real minimum time of service from date of launch. somewhere between 6 months at the low end or 2 years at the very long.

[graceful dirge]

Does that mean i'm not voting for the initiative, no, i know Ross his crazy demands will never become any law, are there players on the market that deceive customers i must say there are some, the initiative only puts something on the agenda, then there will be a investigation and then Game Developers will be notified and asked to comply with laws, like Thor said clear labels might be needed these days...

[old ruin]

Along with an announcement on end of service and a suspension of further payments

[lime minnow]

Id rather change that framework. Having more information isn't bad. If the developers choose absolute minimums to undermine it gives me better insight on my purchases. I don't see this as a net loss

[old ruin]

You don't have a generalized right to this information, so you need to create an actual reason you should be told that

"I want it and it might theoretically change my buying habits" is not actually a particularly good one

[lime minnow]

If I purchase something I want to know how long the product will last me. Even if it's a under projected target.

[old ruin]

"Withholding nutritional information prevents consumers from making informed decisions about their own health, meaningfully costing them years from their limited time on this earth. It also makes it easier to obscure information on the actual makeup of the product."

Okay, but why should we societally do that

laws are blunt instruments

you employ them because you have to

You need to construct an actual argument on a very basic level

[lime minnow]

I already have

[old ruin]

Well, it's poor, and not generally something society has viewed as legitimate. Good luck convincing literally anyone who doesn't already agree with you with it.

[lime minnow]

Just because you disagree with what I desire doesn't take away what I find value in.

[old ruin]

You are the one trying to convince people that they should find value in it

[lime minnow]

I haven't?

[summer night]

his voicing his opinion

[graceful dirge]

And i respect Thor his courage to step forward as a game developer because in a way it could harm his company, because you will always have nutjobs who think everything is free.
I would even encourage him to go more in depth why things are not possible, because there are good Game Developers/Studios who bring good products and this side should be shown more...

[summer night]

which is allowed

[old ruin]

It is, in fact, allowed.

But I also didn't say otherwise

[summer night]

You Say "you need to construct an actual argument on a very basic level" is very disrespectful as hasn't made an arguement

[lime minnow]

I've voiced what I want to see changed. I question the vague handwaving you've so far contributed

[summer night]

Step away from the keyboard

this is not how we talk in here

i know its a hot topic

i know it gets under peoples skins

[old ruin]

That's not an insult. It's a genuine and sincere guide on how to try to argue the topic broadly

[summer night]

No its belittling

[lime minnow]

I don't believe I need a guide on how to state my opinion

I have done so quite well, thank you

[graceful dirge]

Whether you sign it or not is your personal choice and as a human i respect your choice...

[lime minnow]

It really is. I find both "camps" to be taking odd stances with weird vague language and niche situations. Said camps being SKG and Thor.

[old ruin]

No, that's the thing, it's not belittling. I mean that exact thing, sincerely. If I want to change something, that already has societal force, I need to construct an argument, on a basic level, on why the thing we're already doing is wrong, or why the thing I want to change to is just inside the margins of what we consider acceptable, or similar.

[lime minnow]

I'm in a discord channel discussing an ongoing topic. I'm not here to change anything. I'm here to discuss.

Narrow your view and expectations for discourse

[old ruin]

Do have any intention of broadening your own or someone else's horizons?

[frank geyser]

then what are you trying to achieve with this? If you don't wanna change anything, what do you want the results to be?

[old ruin]

Or slightly more aptly, your own or someone else's understanding of the topic at hand?

[lime minnow]

I'm here to state my opinion and discuss it. I have no intentions beyond my own growth of information. I'm not here to make sweeping changes and upturn an industry. I'd like to state my opinion, which I already have, and not have it be handwaved as irrelevant.

[summer night]

what is your thoughts on the SKG?

as whole

[lime minnow]

My only comment to the topic at hand is I want EoL timelines.

[summer night]

by EOL you mean End of life?

correct

[lime minnow]

I think it is flawed and vague

[lime minnow]

Sorry, yes

[summer night]

no its okay dont worry 🙂

[lime minnow]

TLAs, my beloved~

[frank geyser]

Know you didn't ask me, but my thought are, let them die if the developers want them to die. Let them live if the developers want them to live.

And don't release games that they want full price for but still needs like 3 more years of developing before they are "done" to sell

[graceful dirge]

Yeah that's another topic the selling of incomplete games these days...

[lime minnow]

I do stand by my statement that both camps have made odd statements. I don't feel good about some of the points Thor has made either

[summer night]

to be honest deveplopers are being misrep in this whole thing

[old ruin]

I more just want them to be forced to announce their end of life with an offramp. A company will always, with some measure of sincerity, believe the game to have legs to a significant degree.

[summer night]

and that is true until a second game comes out

[frank geyser]

Ok, lets say all the games from now on, are only PLANNED to live for 1-3 years, will you ever by one game again then?

[old ruin]

(I also genuinely think a minimal offramp could be reasonably compelled by force of law within existing beliefs)

[summer night]

Ark Original - Ark (now)

[old ruin]

I'm failing to understand your question to begin with

[graceful dirge]

I agree developers are not the ones to blame what the company strategy is

[lime minnow]

By all games do you mean all live service games, or all games in general?

[graceful dirge]

Wel in EU the game only has to work for the standard period of the warranty, today that is 2y...

[summer night]

whats you favourite game?

currently playing

that you believe would need a EOL?

[frank geyser]

In general, as it seems a game often only lives between 1 - 5 years now anyways. So lets say they are PLANNING to only support the game for 1-3 years, and if they see it profitable to keep it going for longer as long as it's giving back money to the owners, developers and all that

[frank geyser]

Didn't know we had warranties on games

[lime minnow]

Dark and Darker. I would feel more comfortable knowing how long the developers intend to keep the servers running, seeing as you can't play the game single player.

[delicate zinc]

I'm not sure this is what was being asked, right?
I think the idea of a law would just be to set guidelines on a minimum/require a level of communication

Maybe something like "refund transactions that occurred within 3 months of the kill date"

[old ruin]

Laws are for things that are required.

[lime minnow]

Then yes, I would still buy games under this guideline

[old ruin]

it sets a minimum for behavior

[summer night]

okay so let me to see if this would have this issue first 🙂

[old ruin]

I think, using end of life as an example, it would perhaps be admirable to say "We intend down service within a year."

it is better behavior

[graceful dirge]

Well, that is also a difficult thing to state, in an ideal world a developer would like their game to be the next GTA V and they keep earning money from it to keep it running, the question is when you buy the game what is the time you get when you buy it?

[old ruin]

but that there should be a legal compulsion to stop taking money in the last 1-3 months, and a legal compulsion to give an announcement at this time

(Probably 1 month for taking money, and 2-3 months for an announcement)

[delicate zinc]

What do you think of a law just requiring them to refund all transactions from the 3 months prior to a kill date

[lime minnow]

I agree on the announcement, I'm iffy on the sale part

[delicate zinc]

So if they take money they end up having to return it

[graceful dirge]

In EU they have to refund you in the warranty period of 2Y

[old ruin]

I'm not clear on why this is preferable to forcing an end to transactions.

[delicate zinc]

Oh snap really
So even today when a live service shuts down you get all your spend back?

[lime minnow]

Side comment, what occurs if that studio goes under?

[old ruin]

this just ties the money up where neither of us can use it

[old ruin]

I expect he is mistaken on this exact statement, or Suicide Squad would not have been terminated in 3 months

[graceful dirge]

Yeah, that is another thing, but in reason they have to refund you the full amount you paid

[old ruin]

or at least, on its applicability to games

[frank geyser]

So they can't earn money from an other game they have made, to be abel to make the "next" game then with your logic?

[graceful dirge]

A good example was Paragon from Epic Games, they shut it down and refunded all players all their money even outside EU

[old ruin]

I don't understand how that follows.

[delicate zinc]

I'm super curious because a 2yr money back on kill policy would probably stop the "killing of games" but also kill studios pretty fast

[lime minnow]

Just curious, I don't know how EU handles it. I do think refunding if expectations of game do not match at purchase time expectations, in relation to EoL

[earnest mirage]

show me the law pls

[graceful dirge]

Another thing they are allowed is to do you a proposal for compensation, like the new version or something...

[graceful dirge]

Enjoy

[lime minnow]

Me getting screwed over by Elite Dangerous for them making a new version of the game >:(

[graceful dirge]

you can decline the offer and ask your money back

[delicate zinc]

Only three months. Most of these kill decisions occur as the game is dying, and if it was dying, the three months of refund doesn't among to too much

[frank geyser]

well if they have to refund everything you spend in like the last 1 year to 3 months before the game are killed off, the developers of said game, would have been working for free then, or even had to payed to work?

If the studio went under, who will pay then?

[graceful dirge]

Then as a consumer you are mostly the last in line to get paid out and get nothing...

[summer night]

okay so the devs are working towards creating dedicated servers is that correct?

[lime minnow]

It is more I bought the game early on with the statement I would get future updates. Instead they made a new version of the game so that I no longer do, without paying for the new version. The version I paid for still exists however, it just doesn't have the new features.

[lime minnow]

It has dedicated servers currently via steam.

[graceful dirge]

When they stated that before you bought the game it could fall under false advertisement

[frank geyser]

So then we just say we went under as a studio, kill the game, start up a new studio, make a new game, went under, kill the game again, and yes make a new studio, make a new game, and so on. You see the problem here?

[graceful dirge]

I'm still waiting for the co-op in Cyberpunk that they promissed that they would release after a year...

[old ruin]

I do in fact think there is a point where you should stop taking transactions, by force of law, on a game, yes. The offramp is mostly there so is a minimum time to enjoy what purchases you had. Yes, server architecture should, in the majority of cases, be covered by the prior purchases, not 'for free'. In general, if a company genuinely goes under, liability ceases, because there's nobody to compel to force.

[summer night]

okay so in that case the server codes are already out there like pal world so it wont fall out of EOL 🙂

[lime minnow]

Full agree. I'm more miffed I did nothing about it and venting now I know EU warranties and laws and such regarding games

[summer night]

in most cases indies have dedicated servers 🙂

[lime minnow]

Are they?

[summer night]

yup 🙂

[graceful dirge]

You might could get away with it once, but in general they look at those things when a company goes bankrupt to see if it isn't fraudulent and prosecute you if you do in most countries...

[summer night]

plus i see devs are making a active push for them 🙂

[lime minnow]

I didn't think steam hosting servers meant that those servers are around forever

[delicate zinc]

I'd think a three month refund window would encourage the communication, where possible, and offer force remediation where it didn't occur

[lime minnow]

(I actually don't know the system in place for steam multiplayer servers to remain up)

[frank geyser]

So how would Rockstar do with GTA Online then? Were people get there DLC for free, but many of them buy shark cards for money, will Rockstar ever kill GTA V Online? When will they then end to sell you more digital currency in that game? Now when they already have announced GTA VI or when that game are released? 1 year after? When they release it for PC in like 3 years from now? Or never?

[old ruin]

A 'refund window' as the primary means of handling it just ties up money

prevent the transaction from occuring at all, issue refunds as the secondary source

[frank geyser]

Just change leadership of that studio, rehire the same developers, you are fine. Nothing they can do

[graceful dirge]

They will stop selling shark cards 2y upfront, then they can shut it down...

[old ruin]

There are substantial costs associated with declaring bankruptcy

[delicate zinc]

True, but the alternative is to announce, shut down income, and hold the servers open for 3 months

[old ruin]

That is my intention yes

[graceful dirge]

Changing leadership doesn't wave the depts away, it has to be foreclosed and then a revisor sells all of the company assets, you could rebuy the name but i don't think that would be smart...

[earnest mirage]

interesting, but wrong website...
Server has problems and don't work as intended, you can address it. If they can't fix it, you can ask to lower the price. To Refund / Terminate it you must stay to what you agreed in the games TOS. If they say they don't do any refunds, you can't force a refund at all.
Also, if some MMOs shutdown quickly after release, they often refund the players.

And here is the link: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm#inline-nav-4

[old ruin]

I do not understand your questions after "How would Rockstar do with GTA Online then?". Literally. I am sorry, but I am genuinely trying

[frank geyser]

Depends on many things, I worked for a company that changed owner like once a year for like 15 years in a row, each December the previous owner declared bankruptcy and the new owner bought up the company, re hired the same workers, and then repeated this the next December

[graceful dirge]

TOS doesn't trump law, they can put in their TOS you need to have a kitten to get a refund, the law overrules that

[earnest mirage]

wtf

[old ruin]

What kind of company? Because if ubisoft declares bankruptcy, ubisoft loses everything it cares about and makes money off of

[earnest mirage]

it's in the law. The law says, refund/terminate just in some cases

[old ruin]

losing assassin's creed as an IP is significantly more expensive than server maintenance for 3 months

[graceful dirge]

Where doesn't it state "in full"

[frank geyser]

A company that made concrete, that had like 4 sister companies, a bunch of side deals that the "original company" still had after all the ownership changes

[graceful dirge]

if they revoke the license the contract is terminated...

[earnest mirage]

have a nice day and keep cite the wrong site dude 😛

[old ruin]

That sounds like a huge risk. If those deals were legally transferred, then all debts were as well, and I'm not sure what the owner thought they were accomplishing. If those deals were not legally transferred then other companies would be free of their obligations if they so chose

[delicate zinc]

I think earlier in the law they actually excluded live service/online games from being covered by this

Specifically the "games that you download once" part

[old ruin]

Regadless, that is not what would happen to UBisoft if it filed for bankruptcy

they would lose their IP

[earnest mirage]

take a look at my link, there is a disclaimer explicit for digital goods like video/music/games ^^

[old ruin]

it would go into auction unless a seperate plan could perhaps be made

Most of the 'obvious' hacks here are varying forms of fraud

[graceful dirge]

No i contacted the government, had 2 lawyers on the line, i'm pretty sure they know the law if they tell me how to claim my money back from Ubisoft...

[old ruin]

and unlike the concrete company, there are going to be stakeholders and regulators from many, many groups who are going to be keeping tabs here

Because Ubisoft is a multibillion dollar multinational corporation.

[graceful dirge]

is there any search result that states less then 2y

[old ruin]

I dunno man, until you actually have a refund I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting or misreading.

[earnest mirage]

yep

[lime minnow]

What constitutes a single download? Do updates to a game count?

[old ruin]

It is very easy to misunderstand the relevant law

[graceful dirge]

Any digital good in EU has a 2y warranty...

[old ruin]

that is very much not what that said

it specifies that digital goods are different

[graceful dirge]

The can state something different in their TOS, doesn't mean that's lawfully...

[old ruin]

But if you're genuinely correct I welcome it.

[lime minnow]

I dislike how broad these websites state these things too. I always felt a certain way when the statement or similar statements to "in a reasonable amount of time" is used

[delicate zinc]

When it comes to a law, you'll have to bring a lawyer to court and prove this law applied and a violation occurred
I agree it's vague but I think it'd be very hard to claim a live service as a "game that I downloaded once"

[delicate zinc]

That's where lawyers find opportunity

And a jury comes in to decide "what a reasonable person might interpret"

[old ruin]

Well, in a US context yes, but the US is unusual in how much is expected to be done by individuals

[delicate zinc]

(I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with EU court, my statements are based on US Court)

[lime minnow]

I take issue with that by the aspect of me not having the funds to get a lawyer for the 60 dollar game I bought I wish a refund on

Or reduction for

[graceful dirge]

In EU every country has a free service that midigates for you...

It's called ECC

[delicate zinc]

Lawyers will very often take cases for free if that are confident of a certain level of gains. Other times they might take it just to garner reputation.

[frank geyser]

I can say you will spend way more then 60 dollars to get the lawyer to court against that company and get a refund for it

[old ruin]

Not actually for free

but for no up front cost

But also - yes

there's no chance of doing it for one game and one refund

But you're not entitled to a refund in the US anyway

[lime minnow]

It would be a class action

[old ruin]

so good news on that

[frank geyser]

Sadly not every EU country are the same as the next are. Belive me, I'm living in one of them

[graceful dirge]

I have a list of them...

[old ruin]

I would more say "GO to a lawyer in your own jurisdiction"

[lime minnow]

Me crying in the capitalism wastelands of the US

[frank geyser]

Ok, look up how we on Åland are treated even from our "main land" of Finland then

[graceful dirge]

ECC Per Country

[old ruin]

I will repeat: I do not believe Longhouse is accurately representing matters for this in the EU. There are a lot of regulators who would love to slap major tech companies upside the head with easy fines. There are a lot of other watchdogs. I fundamentally do not believe he's found One Weird Trick To Save Games, ftr

[delicate zinc]

It's definitely the high risk, high reward of economies

Freedom to try wildly different things with less restrictions, but far less stability for the consumer.

Lots to gain, lots to lose
You can also get rich fast doing the same jobs, but lose everything just as fast in a layoff

[frank geyser]

Well Åland aint even listed there, we are an autonomy part of Finland, we are excepted from so many EU rules that we sometimes are a part of EU, and sometimes when a company have something to gain from to not see us a part from EU

[lime minnow]

I agree with this take

[lime minnow]

Being able to be fired or laidoff for no reason is scary, I agree

[delicate zinc]

Lmao the disrespect on the "one weird trick" 🤣

[graceful dirge]

i'm not saying ECC is the watchdog at all, that's the EPC...

[old ruin]

I'm saying there are a lot of organizations and groups in the EU, both fundamentally part of the governments, and outside them, who watch for large violations

[lime minnow]

Bless the EU at times

[graceful dirge]

or ECP or something, they do publish their mails even they send to game instances...

[old ruin]

If it were this easy a loss, the corporations would probably not do these things, and if it were this easy a win, someone I've heard of would have hue and cry'd over it 5 years ago

[delicate zinc]

Yeah. You need to be always ready for the next interview, unfortunately. Sharpen the skills and keep them ready.

On the flip side you can profit from a layoff if your ready if they give a severance

[old ruin]

Theoretically this is true of the US as well, there are just generally fewer rules in favor of the citizenry. But the EFF is primarily an NA org, for instance.

[lime minnow]

I have never had a job where severance is within the scope. I've actually only been screwed over by doing the "right thing", such as giving my 2 week notice

[lime minnow]

Fair. I'm just glad that some EU laws impact the US too

[graceful dirge]

So most Gaming companies are with some union in EU EGDF where like in this case the EU watchdogs send letters too like this letter

[exotic forge]

I wonder why unions aren't a bigger thing in the tech industry

[lime minnow]

It's starting to become a thing, but the tech industry is younger than most other industries. It doesn't help that there's been a lot of anti-union nonsense out there

[ornate scroll]

we are getting more unions in general, especially in the us with reccent changes leading to it being way easier to unionize (you still gotta find the people but it is easier to get past the big corpo folks)

[haughty pelican]

i know why thier not bigger in general in the UK

[violet kelp]

They used to be

They're still common in many labour industries like construction. As well as government jobs like teaching, medical staff, police, etc.

But not very common in software, etc.

There was a time where unions got waaay too powerful and started running closed shops (where they would monopolise whole industries and only hire members of that specific union), it got a bit messy.

[lime laurel]

did some more thinking on what I said here #streamchat message

the example of private servers being a major net positive actually goes way further

gacha games which have died have been revived thanks to them (think stuff like World Flipper by Cygames, Dragalia Lost as well) with people being able to re experience, or experience the story for the first time, without the paywalling of gacha elements thanks to these revivals. City of Heroes has been brought back with a MASSIVE playerbase thanks to the private server project for it, and has even gotten the blessing from the original dev teams to actually develop new content for it.

I still stand by saying that after watching Thor's videos on SKG, as well as finally watching Louis's response to Thor, I can somewhat see where Thor is coming from. But I do think Thor is in the wrong on his stance on situations like private servers.

They do not "keep a game limping on with no players". They allow newer generations to experience these games for the first time, to re-live memories if they're returning to it, or otherwise allows folks to experience things which would have otherwise been lost to time.

I do hope what I've said makes sense and that I've worded it well. For a writer, I can be surprisingly bad at wording things lol

i might also be the best case of this, i never would've gotten to experience SMT Imagine, Toontown, City of Heroes, etc without these things

[summer night]

the problem with that though is legal side battlefield 3 is playable without EA Servers and the Modding communities around it do a stella job hands down. But to play on them servers you need to mod your game to allow access to them and its legal under EU and UK and US law until you use the EA-owned Assets then EA will come a knocking which is why all the assets in the game on these servers are all custom or fair use . And WoW (2006) does have private servers these on the other hand are not modded they are mainly dev servers that have been leaked and are usually buggy (had to reset mine every 30 mins because it was crashing like hell) And the same with SWG (2007). And I had 300 people across both and I said hey guys mind giving me 1 pound a month to keep the servers maintained. And before I had finished the sentence, I had 2 letters 1 from Blizzard and the other from Sony.
ill give you a hint I wasn't we love your work.......... im just happy it was sony and not the mouse
ill give you this might help with the understanding from my point of view https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/1254/why-are-private-game-servers-illegal the second answer on this will give you a run down on it.

but i also think you are misunderstanding thor's take on the servers his talking about the developers running the server. if block game died would you expect thor to carry on running it no i would expect him if some one ask in the community to run it he would pass it on.

its why i love indies most if not all do dedicated servers. i have a few running now for my family and friends to have a safe space while gaming. but i unfortunately understand the IP side a little more now days due to my job and yeah its annoying

also your writing was good 🙂

[lime laurel]

However, every server I gave an example for has never once asked for money.

Every WoW server I've tried, the servers for stuff like CoH, SMT Imagine, etc have all been done for the sake of letting the games live on, and in the case of Toontown or CoH, absolutely thrive since they were shut down by Disney and Nexon respectively

[summer night]

And I agree 100% most of those I presume are modding communities? And I would imagine quite small?

Most of them are reversed engineering the servers

Or running emulation

And probably flying under the radar. Unfortunately for most myself included I saw the sun and my wax wings melted

Shouldn’t be like it

And I would even state I would prefer the whole preservation side was not playability but after 5-10 years after the servers have closed allow code to be available on the public domain with registered downloads and and TOS like we have no responsibility for you using this / don’t make money etc etc

So people could check and make sure they are following the TOS

[lime laurel]

Toontown servers, the main two at least (Rewritten and Corporate Clash) are regularly in the 10-20k player range each

If not more

[summer night]

Wow that’s great

A lot bigger than I was expecting

[lime laurel]

City of Heroes Homecoming, the CoH server, has 50k currently

[summer night]

Single servers or multiple groups?

[lime laurel]

One

CoH notably, recently got the blessing and support of the original devs to continue development of content for the game as well

Lemme find it

[summer night]

Go on the modders great people modders and the support from the developers is always nice

[lime laurel]

Less what I originally stated, but still

This being an official license from Nexon to host the server

[summer night]

Love to see it

I really do

[hazy tendon]

both of you make me wonder... what should be done in terms of law then, for the preservation and private servers argument? should anything even be done at all? explicitly allow reverse engineering and use of copyrighted material for non-profit use? heck, are there already laws that allow that?
or should we forget the legal side of it and encourage more discussion between players and developers for preservation after end of life?

[lime laurel]

In the case of Toontown, while nothing has been said from Disney, they haven't gone after the servers at all

And the original devs of Toontown have given their personal blessings to the server devs of Rewritten and CC

[summer night]

I think the point I idea I had earlier would be a good solution to most problems like it

[lime laurel]

And while the case for Shin Megami Tensei Imagine is more messy than these two (TT and CoH), the current biggest server is always populated and dev work on it is being done in a legal go-ahead from Atlus and Sega

To the point of allowing new content (if given the go-ahead under various situations) to be made and added to the game

[summer night]

I know some people paint all developers as bad people but this helps me remember why I want to be a developer

[lime laurel]

I would say that a more positive outcome of SKG would be less legal route, and more opening a dialogue between players and developers

[hazy tendon]

yeah I hope so too

[lime laurel]

I never would have gotten to experience SMT Imagine, Toontown with the content which was originally locked behind a paid sub, City of Heroes, etc if it were not for these communities which have strived and labored to keep them alive

[summer night]

Like the global agenda game we found on stream the other day one potato server running

[hazy tendon]

sorry, which idea exactly? (not trying to be rude or anything, just trying to better understand here)

[lime laurel]

And to see Thor boil all private servers down to "keeping a game limping on with no one" or to only do harm really sucks, and I wholeheartedly disagree with his take

[summer night]

This one @hazy tendon

[hazy tendon]

ah, okay

[lime laurel]

also as an aside

[summer night]

I still think that’s a miss read I think he means the developers themselves

[lime laurel]

private servers have actually helped learn how to, if only slightly, learn how to handle code and manage my own databases and servers so I could play the original version of FFXIV which shut down

[summer night]

Go you

Be data architecting in no time

Btw before I watch the Ross video is it anything special?

Or more talking to me like a baby

[lime laurel]

It's definitely a topic I'm very passionate about. Documenting dead games, keeping them alive through server projects, etc

[summer night]

Which is why I didn’t like it

[lime laurel]

I'd say it's worth a listen to know all sides of a hting

thing*

Same for Louis's video

[summer night]

I mean the wording wasn’t great but it was more oh I would rather play Minecraft that rubbed my the wrong way

Louis’s video is great

Also primes take on the topic is also quite good

[lime laurel]

Will need to see that one

[summer night]

Wait I thought their was a new video on Ross about Thor’s arguments

There*

[lime laurel]

I think the places I do agree with Thor on is just. Advertising for games need to be better, but even that would go poorly if someone drops (let's use the canadian dollar here, being a Canadian) 91 full ass dollars after taxes on a game only to be greeted with text saying "You don't own this game, you have purchased a license to use it"

And that saying all live service games should be shut down and made singleplayer

That is dumb

However

I also know that everyone yelling that are also just the people who've picked up SKG to yell about something for the sake of yelling about something

[hazy tendon]

honestly, I can sorta understand that Thor doesn't wanna talk to Ross, but maybe he'd be more willing if Louis is between them and hosting the discussion...? did Thor comment on that possibility already?

[summer night]

See I disagree with that slightly. it’s in the TOS and I get it we don’t read the TOS we gamers but it’s they to protect us (amazingly I know) along with the development.

[summer night]

He did and said he was up for it

[hazy tendon]

oh, alright then

[lime laurel]

Wait, to be sure Xi

[summer night]

on him being up for it?

[lime laurel]

He said he would be okay for a conversation with Ross, if Louis were there as a middleman to keep things cool as a mediator?

[summer night]

Oh that yeah I was typing that out sorry on my phone

Louis is the linchpin

I think his take on right to repair is very aligned with this subject

His been fighting for it for years

And I feel he and thor are very similar in character

So for all three possible scenario

Thor and Louis yes can see it

Thor and Ross I would rather be betting on a mouse in a horse race

All three…… maybe

[hazy tendon]

it seems to me like Louis' stance on the topic is more in between the two, so I do think him being in the discussion is a must. not to mention his experience with working on consumer rights legislation.

[lime laurel]

You said Thor would do it if it were him, Louis and Ross

[summer night]

Yeah I’m sorry I miss read it

That’s my bad

[hazy tendon]

where did Thor say that? on stream? in a tweet maybe?

[lime laurel]

Yeah that's why I confirmed what you meant

[summer night]

Yeah thanks for that been dealing with a lot of people screaming about this subject today and think I want to kill games and I don’t care

So appreciate that check

[lime laurel]

I would say that like, on an objective stand point

I do agree with SKG

[summer night]

I think he mentioned Louis in a few stream

[lime laurel]

Do I think it should be much more specific about what it wants/change from a legal route/not let folks yell about "all live service games dead"? Absolutely

[summer night]

The idea is sound the wording isn’t

[lime laurel]

But the sentiment behind it, absolutely. The amount of games that have been marketed as single player experiences yet eventually shut down due to server reasons is far too long and I want it to stop.

[summer night]

Yup

[lime laurel]

And I agree, as I've stated, that MMOs should be given a means of surviving beyond EoS

[summer night]

The one I’m running with currently is i bought a disk not a expensive coaster

[lime laurel]

Yeah

[summer night]

Idea sound
Wording is too consumer oriented which isn’t wrong but you need a developer input

and I can’t see that

[lime laurel]

One big example would probably be Overwatch 1 and Overwatch 2

People paid for OW1, it was a full priced video game.

It was then shut down and replaced with OW2, a fundamentally worse version of the game.

[summer night]

Exactly that’s my main argument currently
Overwatch was amazing
Blizzard wanted a new game so re skin the old the original devs said no it’s wrong and they were fired and younger developers got bought in

It sucks the big publishers get that much power

[lime laurel]

Same could be extended to Counter Strike: Global Offensive and CS2, the lack of backwards compatibility on modern consoles, etc

Sony and Nintendo being the most eggregious there

[summer night]

And I know they are people too and they are making money but god damn

Tbh you know the one publisher that surprised me

[lime laurel]

Honestly I think the OW1 to OW2 example would be the best to give as an example to Thor on the reason why the core of SKG is a good thing but me spitballing

Being Blizzard and all

[summer night]

Oh that’s who I got it from

He heard about it happen from a friend

And asked around

But yeah Microsoft surprised me

From the investigation I was doing with all this I saw Rare was allowing dedicated servers

And users could get the host stuff with their clients

[lime laurel]

Mhm, that stuff is cool

I think the best thing to come from SKG would be a more open dialogue between players and developers

[summer night]

Yup agree. I don’t like the developers hate players statement because most “developers” people see aren’t the developers

[lime laurel]

Being able to preserve and/or allow these games to exist beyond these years is a good thing at the end of the day. Will it need to be handled appropriately? Sure, of course it would. But it's the same mindset of someone still owning an NES, SNES, N64, etc and dragging it out some day, showing their kids stuff like Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Mario World, etc

Even that part extends to stuff like Louis. Being able to repair and keep these things going,

[summer night]

Wanna see something cool?

[lime laurel]

What is it?

That may fall under the piracy rule, but yes, exactly

[summer night]

Nope that is a public domain

[lime laurel]

Especially with something like this when the only way some companies allow you to play older games is through subscription services or through lackluster/inaccurate versions with NSO and PS+ Premium game streaming respectively

[summer night]

It’s a nonprofit group I think they run the way back

[lime laurel]

Yeah no, Archive is great

I'm just worried direct posting an archive with hundreds of games may be an issue lol

[summer night]

Don’t think so but I’ll delete it to be sure

All done 👍🏻

[lime laurel]

I don't think it would but that falls to the mods at the end of the day. I absolutely do agree though, sources like that are incredibly important and I'm glad they exist

[summer night]

But yeah totally agree with you on the perspective of saving the games. I do have a slight problem with the fact the topic is pushing preservation and consumer rights together

It feels people are jumping on this bandwagon with the you turn off server me no play game me now angry

Attitude and it’s jarring

I want my kids to play games like I did growing up and have a safe space where they can

[lime laurel]

I think everyone can agree there.

I'm really glad at how positive and hopefully productive this convo has been, it's a subject I'm very passionate about and seeing how Thor has taken has had me fairly sour in how he's worded and gone about it personally.

There's true good that can be done with SKG. The megaphone needs to be tuned, though. Focused in and refined.

[summer night]

Yeah I get it honestly I do. Everyone has a different opinion on this I was talking to someone about it earlier in the screaming and they just wanted to know if it effected their game

People shouting or belittling is not going to help move the conversation forward

[hazy tendon]

yea I haven't said much but I do appreciate the level-headed discussion here. there are way too many people getting really emotional over the topic.

[summer night]

Opinions are subjective not based

I’m too old in my day for fighting like I did on Reddit

[lime laurel]

Lmao

[hazy tendon]

oh yeah Reddit is a terrible place to discuss things like this

Twitter too

[lime laurel]

Two other good examples came to mind btw

[summer night]

Haven’t got the time haven’t got the energy haven’t got the crayons

[lime laurel]

Bloodborne, to a lesser extent

With it's lack of bringing forward/updates for newer hardwar

And PT, for Kojima's Silent Hill

That game is now tied to eventually dying hardware of those who downloaded it and kept it downloaded, or pirates.

Given there's no way to redownload it or acquire it now

That's a piece of art now that is on a strict timer

[summer night]

Yup although I have been told bloods servers got reversed engineered unfortunately Sony are being very aggressive with it

So maybe we can hope

[lime laurel]

BB at least you can still download and play, even if it is with limitations like locked 30, frame pacing issues, etc

[summer night]

Yup

[lime laurel]

actually

now im curious

Would PT fall under the banner of piracy if you were to download an upload of it?

It was a free game which has since been delisted, that is a purely single player, offline experience

To the point of not even being able to redownload it if you DID have it in your library officially

[summer night]

That sound like a legal question to be honest

It’s gray in that kind of thing

[lime laurel]

I think it'd fall under the case of abandonware personally, in my view of it. But I'm not sure 100%

[summer night]

How long has it been out of the house so to speak

[lime laurel]

10 years since release

[summer night]

I think there a 2-3 grace period before abandon ware but you could run into them owning the IP and recently registering it again

[lime laurel]

9 years since removal

[summer night]

Then yeah check for the IP if it’s still there gray if not then maybe abandoned

But still legally speaking better to be safe than sorry

[lime laurel]

Mhm

Was just a technicality question I was interested in

[summer night]

That’s fair

Right going to bounce need to sort out some stuff. Lovely chatting with you. It was nice not to be dealing with the screaming and shouting like early

So thank you

[lime laurel]

Of course!

This was a really nice convo, it was a pleasure to talk with you ^^

[harsh linden]

!spoilers

[dapper raven]

If you know the truth, no spoilers only smiles :) :)

[harsh linden]

!quote

[dapper raven]

13. I remember throwing up on a lawn - Thor

[harsh linden]

hahaha

[frank geyser]

::)

[frozen knot]

donut soup.

[dusk sluice]

🍩

[azure knoll]

Anti Tito climbing device

Haha idiot

[tired zinc]

that look
"how dare you!"

[dusk sluice]

"What has you done to my climbing fun"

[jolly sky]

Such a simple yet perfect (hopefully) solution

[steady stream]

This is the face of utter disappointment. Bless him. He's thinking *"how could you Shaye?" *

[steady stream]

Yeah, hope it works.

I love the fur baby exploits.

[stone nacelle]

Nice classical painting there

[vernal summit]

the distress 😭

[dry osprey]

Eepy mocha

[restive copper]

That some good oil

Also theres this adorable happening

[fresh wolf]

I love watching this so much

[restive copper]

#ferrets message shaye pov of the adorable

[coral kite]

Does anyone know here to find the stream where thor played NMS?

I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

[stone nacelle]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2199829967?filter=all&sort=time 14 hours in

[coral kite]

Yoo, thx man.

[golden patio]

Very random question but I seen a clip on tiktok a couple weeks ago, something about finding a purpose, and mental health or something similar, it was off of a random account so I can't find it again, does anyone have the clip or know how to find it?

[gleaming stag]

Most of the life-advice-type things Thor says are in response to TTS questions, which means that they appear in #answered-tts with links to Twitch timestamps. However, Twitch VODs only go so far back, so anything older than I think a week or two won't be valid anymore

But it's a thing to try, to use Discord's search to find keywords in that channel

[prisma trellis]

youtube keeps them longer, try to find that VOD in youtube by date and search for the timestamp. It is usually a few minutes off though

[pearl rain]

No Pirate stream today either?

[earnest mirage]

#streams message

[pearl rain]

It appears I overlooked that. Thanks. 😄

[earnest mirage]

^^

[summer night]

?

[dawn ibex]

@brittle rune

[brittle rune]

Interesting one

[dawn ibex]

and the odest place to put that as well

[summer night]

yeah i was thinking that myself

[brittle rune]

please mention Moderators instead of a specific one tho!
if I wasn't here this would've been slower to notice

[dawn ibex]

what is the general mod tag?

[brittle rune]

@ Moderators

[dawn ibex]

oh ok it is not sortend got it

[golden rapids]

Is Thor already back tomorrow or did he forget to remove the stream from the schedule on twitch? I thought he would still be at def con by then?

[ember ember]

Stream is back the 13th or 14th

[fossil sapphire]

he doesnt really touch the twitch schedule

[keen quest]

one of the hobs we used to have many years ago, he used to like jumping into the flip lid bin. We ended up taping the lid shut to stop him.
one of the jills also could open the fridge door, we ended up screwing a piece of lego into the fridge to act like a child lock to stop her from doing it.

[sullen adder]

!quote

[dapper raven]

13. I remember throwing up on a lawn - Thor

@sullen adder -> The bot commands for this channel are available at https://nightbot.tv/t/piratesoftware/commands

[sullen adder]

!bajo

[dapper raven]

@bajo has worms.

[sullen adder]

!ghostcar

[dapper raven]

No such thing

[earnest mirage]

!commands

[dapper raven]

@earnest mirage -> The bot commands for this channel are available at https://nightbot.tv/t/piratesoftware/commands

[sullen adder]

!hints

[dapper raven]

NO HINTS!

[sullen adder]

!hints

aw

[earnest mirage]

!peeled

[dapper raven]

Always peel your hotdogs. NODDERS https://clips.twitch.tv/EntertainingCoweringOwlTwitchRPG

[sullen adder]

!hotdog

[dapper raven]

Watch at your own peril! https://clips.twitch.tv/VenomousFineOctopusSeemsGood

[earnest mirage]

so much regret

[sullen adder]

!Human

[dapper raven]

Once Human, which Thor is playing on stream, is available for free! Download it here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2139460?utm_source=entwitchpirate

Steam

Once Human

The apocalypse changed everything. Human, animal, plant… all are infested by an alien creature – Stardust. As a Meta-Human, you can survive the contamination and use the power of Stardust. Play alone or join others to fight, build and explore. When the world is in chaos, you are our last hope.Survive in the wildernessYou wake up in the middle of...

▶ Play video

[sullen adder]

!jam

!jam

[dapper raven]

Learn about the Pirate Software Game Jam here: https://develop.games/gamejam

[sullen adder]

!lurk

[dapper raven]

notstretchcraft Chills out to some sweet jams, the jelly's are nice too. yarrLurk

[sullen adder]

!mc

[dapper raven]

You can play our MMO built in Minecraft Java 1.20.2 here! https://blockgame.info You can also check out the community wiki here! https://blockgame.piratesoftware.wiki

[sullen adder]

!mememes

[dapper raven]

The community here is a bit weird. Here's a folder of Thor's face on a bunch of stuff. https://nav.steets.tech/thormememes

[sullen adder]

broken link

[earnest mirage]

almost all of it is on https://discord.com/channels/162034058736435201/654955494460358656

you may need to select the "enjoy dank meme" role

[sullen adder]

ohhhh

[digital canyon]

the cats are mad at me, because there's no ferrets on the ferret stream!

[restive copper]

@azure knoll Ear biting in the blue hammock

The criminal has been apprehended

[fossil sapphire]

surely this coulda been better in the chat of the stream? This is streamchat, which is usually for people to chat about the stream, as the stream's chat is too full :)

[serene valley]

This chat works for the ferret stream too

[brittle rune]

it works for both streams, but it's true that informing us in chat directly is the better option

[restive copper]

And we tried that but no luck so i went here because everyone else was just debating doing it.

Because im the same user, im just to lazy to change my twitch icon

[vagrant silo]

behold, the perfect mod bathroom

[shell coyote]

@minor nymph

[golden rapids]

Hi, anyone know what the "moderation settings" of teh Ferret stream are? Subs only? Would be great if twitch would actually tell one why regardless of content anything apparently conflicts with them...

I can literally write "hello" and get "Your message wasn't posted due to conflicts with the channel's moderation settings." but other apparently can write exactly that. I'm so confused right now.

[strange owl]

Try refreshing, it does that sometimes

The only moderation (besides the general Twitch ones) are only clip links unless you are subbed.

[golden rapids]

Nope, even happens after refreshing the page...

[strange owl]

Are you banned in Thors stream? They share moderation afaik.

[golden rapids]

Not anymore. However if you're banned twitch actually tells you that you're banned...

[strange owl]

No idea then, you will have to check in with the mods I guess.

[fossil sapphire]

send a #mod-ticket perhaps

[sweet geode]

something it might be is that it requires 2fa on your account

[fringe fractal]

What happened to Thor's recent VODs on Twitch? #answered-tts shows messages from August 6th but they link to 404, and the last stream on "Past Broadcasts" shows as 13 days ago

I'll have to use YouTube for now, but I feel it's still worth asking

[astral shuttle]

They expire

[earnest mirage]

@astral shuttle after 2 months when the vod isn't avaiable anymore.
@fringe fractal During the last few Streams Thor had some issues with his TTS. The timestamps sometimes don't work as intended.

[fringe fractal]

So he had to remove the VODs completely?

[earnest mirage]

nono, just the timestamps don't work sometimes

oh i see

[fringe fractal]

Oh I know about that. But what I'm saying is, the most recent VOD on Twitch is 13 days ago but the most recent stream was 5 days ago

[earnest mirage]

something went wrong, there is no vod on twitch 😕

the last 5 streams are missing

just take the timestamp and try it with the Youtube vod i guess

[fringe fractal]

Yeah that's what I did. Luckily it was before the 12h mark

[earnest mirage]

should work for the first 12h. Everything later is gone

[strange owl]

It could have been claimed, then someone would have to manually publish the vod.

[serene valley]

Could always at least check the YouTube VODs

And scrub to roughly the time in the TTS

Streams could also just have been removed by thor i suppose? But thatd be a bit weird

[golden rapids]

@earnest mirage probably twitch auto detected some potential DMCA issue and set them to private. At least thats a common issue for other streamsers even if they bought the licenses for the music they use...

[fresh ginkgo]

...

I'll admit it's diving into conspiracy mode..

But anyone else find it odd that the streams with missing vods, just so happen to be the ones where the initiative drama kicked up?

[gleaming stag]

You mean the vods that are still there on youtube?

Dunno why the twitch ones are missing, but the Live tab on youtube still has everything

[fresh ginkgo]

Yeah I know it's only on twitch that they're missing

Just saying the timing lines up weirdly so conspiracy brain wonders if there's SOMETHING going on

[gleaming stag]

thor has gained access to your brain

Now he lives there rent-free

[fresh ginkgo]

Nah

My brain isn't a rental property

It's a transit center

Constant in and out

[hidden bobcat]

Does anyone think Thor has seen the news about Hi Fi Rush
https://x.com/AUTOMATON_ENG/status/1822785069766910151

AUTOMATON WEST (@AUTOMATON_ENG) on X

Tango Gameworks taken over and "revived" by PUBG publisher Krafton, with plans to expand Hi-Fi Rush IP
https://t.co/KK6qyToL8I

Twitter · Aug 12, 2024, 12:00 AM

If not when he's back I'll probably TTS the link to him this is great news

[fast dagger]

AYOOO

[eager bloom]

infinitely soggy bread

[arctic garnet]

I remember that Thor once was talking abt educational yt channels that break down complex topics? What were some of the channels he mentiond

[forest glacier]

Now I kinda wish I hadn’t slept on the MYM streams, I just caught the “AI Friend” video and that’s definitely something that happened while I was legitimately asleep. MYM can be interesting, to a point. I feel like after a couple hours tho, it starts to feel repetitive as far as stream content. It would help if I was interested in the game, but my current stance is that another game isn’t going to help me with choice-overload.

[forest glacier]

It’s actually entirely possible that they were taken down pending legal action. I wouldn’t put it past that…guy..to try something dumb against Thor for emotional reasons.

[wise kestrel]

is a stream starting soon? thats what twitch is saying

[summer night]

thor is back tomorrow

[wise kestrel]

where the goblin go?

[summer night]

Defcon, the hacking convention

[wise kestrel]

I see

thank you

[summer night]

traveling back today 🙂

no worrys 🙂

[digital canyon]

I do find it sus as well...

But Thor is also smart enough that if he was going to try and scrub the videos from Twitch that he'd also get the Youtube ones too.
Like, everything aside that's my reason for doubting it's that kind of situation.

[golden rapids]

I'd suspect that even in the case where these two events are related it is more of the lines that Thor was too fed up dealing with manually re-enabling the stream archive on twitch. Assuming he also has the issue that twitch keeps auto-disabling them until you prove innocent...

[digital canyon]

I can at least confirm that the situation applies to people subbed to the stream, as I am. So it's not a 'paywall'.

just noticed the situation himself, when going to check recent streams to find the one where Thor is talking about Carl Sagan, Bill Nye, and other famous educators...

His comments reminded me of an old meme that I finally found...

[earnest mirage]

This started on the 2nd iirc. The previous stream is also missing, so i doubt it.

[orchid abyss]

Haven't been a part of the community long myself (less than six months), but have seen a couple vods taken down for specific problems.

Given that the videos discussing the initiative are available (in edited form), if they were taken down, it may have been because of specific behavior that couldn't simply be moderated out?

Note: more than a few times I've seen twitch crap the bed when I wanted to go see what Thor said on a specific TTS.

[forest glacier]

That’s only happened once in the 8months I’ve been here, you may be thinking of the FerretSoftware stream which used to have that issue every single day but Thor reported that Twitch “fixed” the issue.

[forest glacier]

It’s very rare, I’ve only seen a VOD deletion 2-3 times in the last 8 months. 2 specific times were because someone got racial slurs across the live broadcast. The only other issues I’ve seen in the time I’ve been here is a desync issue where the timestamp is a couple minutes off, the API used to generate the link goes down and no link gets generated (happened twice in particular) but I’ve not seen any other issues, if your having a lot of issues with the TTS timestamp system maybe there is an issue within your network.

[forest glacier]

*maybe

[summer night]

yeah i mean we can hope

[forest glacier]

Yea, but jet lag is 2:0 with Thor as far as I know lol

You could call it 1.5:0.5 cuz Thor streamed the first day he got back from TwitchCon EU, but fell asleep on stream and took the next few days off. So half W

[orchid abyss]

Not like we're going to starve if Thor takes an extra day off to wind down

[summer night]

well im thinking thor and defcon he dont sleep soooo im thinking 14th

nope not at all

[forest glacier]

Stop stealing all of chats brain cell bits

[summer night]

could you smell the burning

[forest glacier]

It makes too much sense, it has to be a gov conspiracy

[orchid abyss]

the birbs are watching us

[forest glacier]

Ah the days when chat only had one braincell. Those were good times

[summer night]

yup

[forest glacier]

I miss naturally slow chat. It’s so much chaos on Twitch chat now that an entire cities worth of people watches Thor for 12 hours a day

[summer night]

tbh im just happy all the arguing has died down i was losing my mind

[ember ember]

The jet lag shouldn't hit him as hard this time around. If anything he'll probably be more tired from the challenges at defcon.

[forest glacier]

I don’t think it has, there’s just been no stream to do it on….

[forest glacier]

My bones are ready for the story of how PirateSoftware Ligma’d ThePrimeagen at DEFCON 2024

[ember ember]

[forest glacier]

You and Xi had a better moment to enjoy slow chat. It didn’t seem slow at the time but it definitely seems slow now. December 6th was the first stream I watched after his Shorts hacking their way into my feed for the first time on December 3rd. Was gifted a sub on December 9th and the rest is history.

[ember ember]

I didn't start watching his streams until maybe a few weeks after my algorithm started to get flooded.

[forest glacier]

The flood happens after you interact with it once (watching it for even 4 seconds is an interaction) idk why his shorts got pushed so hard to users who don’t have the categories his content falls under. Like never in my life have I interacted with programming or game development content in any way. When I saw a short by him for the first time my entire shorts feed was conspiracy theories, politics, and YLYL. Nothing even remotely like his content.

The first 3 shorts I ever saw from him were definitely more in the life advice category than the gamedev and programming categories tho, so maybe…but idk.

This is why for the first 3 days I knew of his account I didn’t even know he was a game dev. Found that out when joined the first live stream.

[zealous frost]

I think I was in one of the first waves with his classic short about his dad

ehh, it was released earlier than i though, i joined like oct-nov ish

Because I remember running out of content and finding him live

[hazy tendon]

slightly spicy take that might be contrary to what's currently being discussed:
I'm glad that we get pants now, because chat gets stupid often, and even otherwise, I feel that the streams are often just distracting me from actual gamedev. the pants are the (usually) better parts of the stream put together into a shorter video.
that being said, should I think of it differently, or is this one of those things where it's "to each their own"?

although I guess YT comments can get just as stupid lol

[hazy tendon]

Also, I thought about the SKG thing a little more and now I'm kind of just confused... and maybe Thor is too?? Maybe he was too pressured to quickly put out a statement, so he didn't take the time to organize his thoughts...

I know Thor said that he doesn't like Ross' attitude or something like that, but the way I personally would've responded is "I strongly disagree with how Ross thinks it's going to be an 'easy win', so I'd like him to explain to me directly what led him to think that way". I myself would really like to know what led Ross to think that way, and the way Thor is dealing with it at the moment comes off to me as "I don't want to better understand the opposing argument because I don't think he'd understand me". How'd he know that if he didn't even try talking with Ross directly? Am I missing something?

Some of the ways Thor disagreed with other parts of SKG is somewhat inconsistent with Thor's past statements too (regardless of whether or not I agree with Thor). That especially made me think Thor didn't take the time to organize his thoughts.

I'm saying this because I really do wish the best for Thor, as I do respect him for sharing gamedev knowledge and being motivational about it, and I think Thor's handling of the SKG subject at the moment is attracting more negative attention to him (and perhaps this whole community) than necessary. Sure, his videos on the matter are technically doing well because it's getting him more subs than he's losing, but it could still be better.

Basically what I'm saying is, that Ross-Louis-Thor meeting needs to happen. And this time it needs to be well-organized.

As Louis said, "We could all learn something! It doesn't have to be this adversarial throwing s**t at each other thing." https://youtu.be/TF4zH8bJDI8?feature=shared&t=1593

[buoyant arrow]

From what I've understood, Thor didn't take issue with "[Ross's] attitude or something" but with the list presenting the passing of law as easy because Politicians are just pandering opportunists who would take an easy win, don't care about videogames anyway, need distraction from more serious topics.

Also the claim that the initiative would get us closer to being in line with existing consumer protections in place. This is incorrect. Technically, currect practices are in line with those protections. You could argue that current protections aren't good enough(which I am inclined to agree), but Ross wasn't arguing that when calling it easy.

The Issue I personally feel with the initiative is that it's trying to pass law based on what I perceive as a vague but emotionally charged premise.

If they'd say "We don't want to be hoodwinked into thinking we're purchasing a game when we're merely paying for access to a service", I'd be right there. But that's not what's being asked.

It's asking for something that has so many follow up questions, that I'm severely concerned in the entire process, bad law is gonna pass.

Example: The initiative claims that providing means to keep a game playable is easy. That's.. how do they know that? Is everyone making games the exact same way? What of games made by inexperienced teams? What of games that fail?

The initiative is asking for something way to big. I've talked to several people, I've read dozens of takes. I've scrolled through comments and responses, and supporters are talking like the initiative WILL do a specific thing they want. Like keep their games running, kill live service games, historical preservation, make private servers happen. People talk like law is magic. Like this will fix their personal issue (which most a valid issues), but it won't? It might! It could. It also might make them worse. Who knows! Legislation is a complex and long winded process, and for good reason, but this process can backfire harshly if the base it's starting from is so muddy and unclear in what it's asking.

[hazy tendon]

Well okay, maybe not Ross's "attitude" but simply his "easy win" statement.
But yeah, all that's why I think a meeting needs to happen. Ross could better explain, directly to Thor, why he thinks it's an "easy win". Thor could explain how things work inside the industry. Louis could chime in with his past experience trying to get laws passed, as well as keep things cool. Again, we could all learn something.

[buoyant arrow]

What Ross should imo say is to admit that it's just not an easy win. What he's doing is gonna cut into the profit of a multi billion dollar industry. Sure, the initiative might go through, but the lobby still exist. What he wants is simply. not. easy. to achieve.

Which is fine. Good change is rarely easy. And while I personally don't belive this initiative has a high chance of causing good change, I don't belive Ross comes from a place of malice. Naivete maybe, but not malice.

[hazy tendon]

We don't know what Ross (or Thor or even Louis) will say unless they actually have a conversation. Simple as that. I want to hear the direct conversation between them.

[buoyant arrow]

That's fair. I'd be curious too. I just don't think Thor would change his mind.

[hazy tendon]

I just don't think Thor would change his mind.
I disagree, but not in the way that "I think Thor would change his mind". I think we shouldn't go into it with any prejudice.

[buoyant arrow]

Hm. Let me rephrase: I'm not confident that with the initiative the way it currently is worded, Ross can make an argument that could convince Thor to support. I still think they could have a productive discussion and come away better than before.

[hazy tendon]

That's better, but still, who knows how it'll turn out.

[sacred junco]

Thor did express interests in talking to Louis Rossmann so we'll see

[buoyant arrow]

Entirely up to them in the end.

[forest glacier]

The only con is that the moments you get in the YouTube shorts and pants are much more numerous on stream, it’s the community on the stream that decide which clips become shorts, the pants are decided on between Sunder and Thor.

[hazy tendon]

meh, I feel like a lot of the same moments happen repeatedly, or the ones that don't make it into either shorts or pants aren't really that significant. I guess there's the funny TTS every now and then, but that's about it that comes to mind.
again though, that's just my opinion.

also again, should I think of it differently, or is watching the streams maybe just not for me?

[forest glacier]

Well this also depends on what time of day you tune in and for how long, or even how frequently your there. Because it’s really hit or miss, some days you get really insightful TTS that make a bunch of “clip-worthy” moments and other days it’s just repeated memes and etc.

I haven’t really paid attention to what time the best ones come thru but I’m an all 12 hours watcher, I clock in and out with Thor lmao. (Sometimes I take a nap somewhere in the middle of stream)

[hazy tendon]

I'm in Japan, so I often catch the very beginning of the stream at 4pm JST and watch it for the rest of the day until either I go play games later that evening or go to sleep.

so pretty much somewhere between the first 4-8 hours

[forest glacier]

You don’t have to conform to thinking a different way but maybe try catching the tail end of the stream closer to early morning time if that’s possible for you, the end of the stream is always very different from the beginning. Different parts of the world are awake.

[hazy tendon]

I see, but the stream would then end at like 4am JST, no way I'm staying up for that lmao

[forest glacier]

lol, I hadn’t thought about where it would be, but also I forget he changed the schedule a long time ago so that he would be playing video games at the end of the stream, so idk if that would be any more interesting to you.

The last 4 hours (sometimes 6, rarely zero) has been game time for a while now.

[hazy tendon]

even if Thor is playing a game that catches my interest, I just do not want to ruin my sleep schedule for it.
now I understand why I haven't really enjoyed the streams though, so thanks for the insight.

[forest glacier]

There is always VODs of the stream you can scrub through, and the shorts and pants.

[brisk sparrow]

Twitch vods are purged by twitch after a while, and YouTube only stores (effectively) the last 12 hours of stream.

[forest glacier]

You also now know which part of the VODs to skip to in order to see if Thor played a game that day, Twitchtracker.com/piratesoftware is also a good place to see what games were played and when

[forest glacier]

30days and lol (11h 58min 😋)

[hazy tendon]

isn't it only the first 12 hours, not the last 12 hours?

[brisk sparrow]

Might be first

Either way it’s only 12 hours

[hazy tendon]

yea so the game part might get cut off too

[forest glacier]

Well there will always be 30 un-cut VODs available on Twitch with a new one every day but Thursday

[jolly sky]

3 months on Twitch if you're partnered

[limber nova]

when is Maldavius Figtree going to stream

is he gonna feature Wingless Emoto one day

[last summit]

What happened to the last two weeks of VODs? I don’t see them on twitch or yt

[stone nacelle]

Vacation?

[forest glacier]

Are they now also gone from YouTube? My guess is still that the SKG guy is trying to DMCA the VODs with his video in it, it’ll just have to be appealed as falling under fair use guidelines and it’ll go back up, I think.

[astral shuttle]

Sigh

[ionic bronze]

SKG guy?

[proud depot]

accursedfarms? doesn't seem like him, but who knows

[forest glacier]

There’s a video that explains it on Thor’s YouTube channel. Called “Stop Killing Games”

[digital canyon]

This...

Thor's 'take' can basically be summarized as "You have no plans for implementation, which means implementation could be a catastrophe, and I cannot support it."

[forest glacier]

Just a guess, it is weird that all the twitch VODs went down…then a couple hours later all the YouTube VODs went down…according to the person in chat above

[proud depot]

if it turns out to be him then I'll have to have a think about still watching freemans mind 2

[summer night]

well i somehow missed that drama

how did i do it i must try that again

[serene valley]

You mean this maim one? Yeah never heard of this, must've been a twitter exclusive

[summer night]

i must have missed that subscription

[forest glacier]

Maim is the guy Thor tells stories about working with when he was younger and making very poor financial decisions. The guy who open sourced their work and put them both out of business

[lime laurel]

i still think the biggest point where I disagree with thor on the SKG stuff is just the stance on private servers, and wholesale disregarding the project itself. while the project has issues that need to be worked out (legal route being bad, knocking off the people just shouting "live service bad tho", etc) it can be a good thing if we move with it in the right way. opening a dialogue between players and devs, making thoughts known, etc

this maim stuff is a whole blindside though. i aint heard shit till now

[summer night]

yeah isnt that the 30/70 story?

[lime laurel]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

iunno

hope your day is going well btw, Xi

[forest glacier]

possibly, he has repeated it MANY times

like MANY MANY times

[summer night]

wonderful thank you Nevy, are you having a good day?

how is your day Sherpaorc all good?

[lime laurel]

pretty alright. went for a walk earlier, spent some time in the garden of the place i live at

[forest glacier]

but anyway, apparently at the time some small articles framed that situation as if Thor ripped that guy off (when it was the other way around) and I guess somehow also alluded to sexual stuff which is WILD and now people have dug up the article

[summer night]

sounds lovely

[forest glacier]

Started sharing it and haters gonna hate, they took it to the reviews section of Heartbound and Twitter

[summer night]

well i mean after the last few month i would be amazed if it wasnt on the "charges"

[glad totem]

what in the loaf of stale bread in a desert is happening? the internet has gone mad right?

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/boburnham-inside-netflix-internet-computer-gif-21887509

[glad totem]

member when we came to the internet to escape real life? where that went? also that gifs encapsulates how my brain is feeling

[lime laurel]

the internet is always on fire

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/fine-this-is-fine-dumpster-fire-everthing-is-fine-everything's-fine-gif-3293785927797514322

mine is this

[lime laurel]

trying to find more info on this but /shrug, can't find anything of note

[summer night]

tbh im just tried of the arguing and react channels

[flint quartz]

join the club

[summer night]

do i get a membership card?

any perks?

[flint quartz]

you get deep antisocialism and you just sit in discord 18 hours a day

[summer night]

no need to call me out like that

ow

currently im playing in a sand box and keeping away from the rough housing

[flint quartz]

goan get Sand on your computor

[summer night]

but thats what the soap is for my neice said

true story

i was pouring sand out for weeks

just want a spaceship so i can be in the stars

[brittle crow]

So people are mad at Thor cuz of SKG take and now they're trying to find shit to defame him? Is that right?

[winter wave]

sounds like it

[summer night]

welcome to the internet

[lime laurel]

While I still have personal reasons why I think Thor handled the SKG stuff poorly, using it to extend to trying to defame him is hella dumb.

[summer night]

its the internet if you throw something i throw something bigger

no talking just arguing

not you @lime laurel its just others

[slow island]

https://tenor.com/view/fight-reality-internet-dog-fight-gif-14155714

[summer night]

BINGO

https://tenor.com/view/stupied-gif-7880698

[slow island]

https://tenor.com/view/fighting-dogs-dogs-fence-gif-24901767

My favourite one

[summer night]

thats a good one

its the
im going to have you
oh hi frank
im going to have you

so 14th for the stream returns is looks like

[digital canyon]

Sadly, yes.

[vagrant silo]

imagine being mad at something the 2 parties involved have solved years ago, PEAK internet

[digital canyon]

The ridiculous amount of negative stuff that's come out in the last couple weeks is too sudden for it to have not been prompted by his SKG comments... In this case the correlation feels genuine.

[summer night]

i swear to god YouTube if you send me one more "we think you might like this" for a channel i don't want to watch and i click don't recommend im going to be very angry

[buoyant arrow]

Not to mention something Thor has talked about himself already many many times before live on stream.

[buoyant arrow]

It has a lot of followers. And where there's lots of people there's always a few terminal idiots.

[serene valley]

ah the VODs were removed by thor #general_chat message cause they were being used to stir shit up n stuff

[buoyant arrow]

I guarantee you that the copycats were re editing his vods to make him sounds much more hostile. Generates clicks.

[serene valley]

not sure whether that's the best move cause now they're gonna say "he's hiding what he said" n stuff like that I guess...

[summer night]

thats the internet for you

[serene valley]

but leaving them up might also not be great so it's like ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[buoyant arrow]

They'll find a reason to hate either way, so take the one where they got less "ammo"

[summer night]

did you guys see theo's video

[serene valley]

yes

on his second channel

[summer night]

that was funny

[serene valley]

I saw primeagen's too

[summer night]

primes was good

[forest glacier]

@fringe fractal @fresh ginkgo @last summit VOD Deletion reason

[buoyant arrow]

The one were he straight calls gamers entitles a-holes?

[serene valley]

it was funny how primeagen basically came with pretty much the exact same points that thor did, independently

[summer night]

Theos was just "wanna see my call you out ....... ok"

[summer night]

yup that one

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, I consider myself a "gamer" for what it's worth. And I couldn't agree more with him.

Just throw a pebble in literally any steam discussion forum

[lime laurel]

i feel like calling people who want to preserve games "entitled" is a little far, personally. the people yelling "kill all live service games"? sure, they ain't great

those guys are the real bad ones

[summer night]

his not aiming that at you it was more the death threats

i see preserving games a good idea

but this is more for MY GAME NO WORK

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah. Historical Preservation. By people qualified to do so. WIth curators and museums and shit.

[fresh ginkgo]

Ah, makes sense

[buoyant arrow]

Not Timmy from over there, wanting to keep playing game 450858 forever

[summer night]

like for sharing younger players like my kids

100%

i want private servers

but make it controlled

[forest glacier]

No he called the initiative entitled because what you want is what you want, not whats possible. The ask that games with live service should be made playable after sunsetting is not feasibly possible

[lime laurel]

i do wish i could send it in tts next stream, about my personal feelings regarding private servers as we discussed, to thor

but money is unfortunately Not Plentiful Enough

[buoyant arrow]

I'm one the fence with Private Server thing.

There's a lot of thing to clear up for that to be safe.

[lime laurel]

While they can be used for harm and there's tons of examples of it, the sheer level of good they have brought about for a lot of games cannot be understated.

Whole games have been revived and are doing better than they ever did officially because of them

[summer night]

true but the saying one ruins its for the rest is unfortunately a thing

anyways lets not debate

im to tired of it

[forest glacier]

While this is nice, that has to be within the wishes of the parent company to make the game able to be privately run in that way, legally and financially that choice has to be made

[summer night]

ive been called every name under sun recently

and its mentally draining

i have quit 3 discord over it

[buoyant arrow]

Just a last thing to add to that: Yeah games cna do better on private servers, and because that is true, I want refer back to the point Thor made about someone torpedoing a studio and taking the game. Food for thought.

[buoyant arrow]

That sucks man. I'm sorry.

[summer night]

its okay

[lime laurel]

Not to rehash the whole topic, but you can search up my message history for my full thoughts on it

I feel like the good which has been achieved with private servers outweighs the negatives as it stands currently, to sum it up.

[summer night]

when you defend a dev saying i dont want to release my game that i spent 6 years on for someone to say, "well your s*** out of luck" i gets old really quick

at that point his entitled

[buoyant arrow]

I dunno, someone potentially getting hacked and having their life potentially ruined isn't worth a number of people being able to play a video game. Scammers are gonna flood that space if it becomes legal and easy to do.

[summer night]

i really felt for the dev

[golden rapids]

Oh this discussion again...

[summer night]

its winding up

[buoyant arrow]

Sorry, I'mma stop.

[forest glacier]

Yea, also we got an official reason for the VODs...
#streamchat message

[summer night]

we will stop promise

[slow island]

It's pretty late for me to form coherent thoughts, but it feels like we live in a strange time, or is that just me?

[golden rapids]

What was it?

[forest glacier]

i added the link in edit

[lime laurel]

yeah, i'll bow out. if y'all wanna see the summation of my stance and thoughts, just search my message history here in #streamchat

from uhhhh

last week. i think

[summer night]

yeah

[lime laurel]

time is an illusion and my grasp on it slips by the day :V

[buoyant arrow]

Like in general? I get that feeling.

[lime laurel]

the fact 2024 is already almost over is still throwing me for a loop like. holy shit

[golden rapids]

Oh, was too fast then 😄 But yea, that was one of the things we suspected.

[buoyant arrow]

For I guess it was the realization that world is not that nice stable unchanging thing I experienced during my childhood, and is in fact, and constantly shifting and violently changing thing.

[summer night]

tell me about it

[lime laurel]

yeah, i think that's where a lot of time perception gets messed up, box

[forest glacier]

What are you talking about 2020 was yesterday

[buoyant arrow]

What do you mean it's not February anymore?

[golden rapids]

True, and I haven't even taken any paid leave yet...

[lime laurel]

we're so used to time feeling long while we're young, only for us to get older and it just slips us by.

hell, i ain't even as old as most here, being 23 as of this year

[slow island]

I remember this quote, I'll cut the end off as it may not be appropriate. "We were born too late to explore the earth, too early to explore space, but born just the right time to explore..."

[forest glacier]

most would consider that a baby when it comes to "old folks" lol

[lime laurel]

exactly lol

[buoyant arrow]

I'm 34. Don't feel much more "mature" that I did 10 years ago. Just different.

[summer night]

bloody kids back in my day we shouted at people on my lawn

and that was yesterday

it was my kids

[forest glacier]

Back in my day our after school activity was goin down to the creek and skipping rocks

jumping around the woods and climbing into trees

[summer night]

see that sounds fun i wish i had a creek

[golden rapids]

Well you don't need to cut off anything. This is a template statement. the last part that you cut off is basically a variable anyway...

[summer night]

not to own obv

[buoyant arrow]

I remember going into a nearby forest with my buds, picking out sticks and having straight up tournaments.

[lime laurel]

i find myself thinking back on older summers when i was younger. going to the local swimming lake, having a fun time

and just those rides back

wet hair, music, the sunset and breeze from the window

[serene valley]

now you just write a cancel post on twitter dot com

[summer night]

im 36 and i joined the internet in the beginning. dad coming home with the boxes for the phone lines

[buoyant arrow]

I remember the dial up noises too

[summer night]

picking up the phone because it rang

[lime laurel]

mid 2000's internet for me

[golden rapids]

Ok, but where is the creek and the trees now? These places basically no longer exists in any satisfying way. It is very depressing going back there. 0/10 would not recommend. Don't even look it up on google maps...

[summer night]

and you shouldnt

[slow island]

dial up noise

[forest glacier]

It was artificial but not like the city, natural terrain with inlets and outlets to direct the water, but at one end was a little pond-like area and I would throw small boulders into it and watch the water go everywhere

[summer night]

sounds like bliss

[lime laurel]

the days of

let's just say limes and some random wires i found. i shudder to think of the viruses i had

[buoyant arrow]

I did go back one to a lot of those places in my hometown. It was all so tiny. Or locked off.

[forest glacier]

No, all in the same place still. Just a bit dirtier than usual

[summer night]

oh you mean Surpirse EXEs

those were fun

[lime laurel]

exactly

[buoyant arrow]

Man I learned english with games that I.... found

[lime laurel]

good ol linkin park - in the end.mp3.exe

[buoyant arrow]

Way back when.

[forest glacier]

I only recently left the area, I was in Virginia, it heavily wooded and hilly. You cant exactly errect big flat dead concrete jungles there.

[golden rapids]

Same but not at home. The dial up modem was silent btw. And the first one I had at home was a 6000 dsl limited to 3000...

[slow island]

I tried so hard, and got so far...

[summer night]

or downloading a film and getting a skinny man feeding a fat man spaghetti

[buoyant arrow]

I kept getting superman movies for some reason

God what a stupid kid I was

[digital canyon]

These days it'd be labelled loitering/trespassing, and the owner would call the cops to get you off their property.

[lime laurel]

nah

best era

trying to run team fortress 2 on my dell latitude d830

[summer night]

and now they call the cops if you look at the road funny

[lime laurel]

having to run it on all hyper low

and even then having to play on trade servers running minecraft custom maps

[buoyant arrow]

I played Minecraft before it had a Survial Mode

[summer night]

god i miss them days where being a kid wasnt so dramatic

[flint quartz]

i used to have those acer aspire 1 mini laptops and it was hilarious to run games on it

[lime laurel]

oh god those things

[forest glacier]

Thats the beauty of public property. they cant lol. I get the points being made but in this specific case the area is still the same and unchanging because it cant change. the plot lines were drawn way too long ago and everything is far too rooted. I grew up my whole childhood there and only ever saw 2 development projects over the course of about 16 years.

[lime laurel]

i don't care for my uncle much anymore, he's the equivalent of an american from texas let's say, in canada

[golden rapids]

In 7th or 8th grade we had a kind of autoran inf trojan at school and basically wrote a kind of vaccine for these computers by writing a more spreadable trojan that did nothing except for delete the files of that trojan off of every drive and replacing them with write protected noops...

[lime laurel]

but he's absolutely the reason I'm so into tech now

[forest glacier]

too bad I was forced to move because I was not the property owner and the property owner didnt know how to be a property owner. House totalled

[lime laurel]

watched him mod an og xbox when i was a kid, with mechassault 4 iirc

had a ds lite from him with a flashcart

[golden rapids]

Typical Emule stuff 😄

[summer night]

a Texan Canadian how does that work?

[lime laurel]

let's just say its because of his stances

[summer night]

love me a good emule torrent

[lime laurel]

and i cant go deeper cause rules

[summer night]

fair

[buoyant arrow]

My dad bought a modded xbox from a work colleague, and around 200 disks. Of those, only like 5 worked. I played Ninja Gaidens first 2 Missions like 100 times because it never loaded further

[lime laurel]

goddddd

yeah

i'd love to have a modded xbox, or modded 360

[summer night]

what was everyones first machine PC or console?

[golden rapids]

Technically here you can't even do that with private property if it is a forrest at least. As wandering the woods is considered a fundamental right.

[lime laurel]

i've modded my wii, 3ds, wii u, ps3 and a psp so far

[summer night]

mine Sage mega

[digital canyon]

It's called Alberta.

[lime laurel]

eyyy

they get it

[buoyant arrow]

The very first was an NES.

[lime laurel]

but nah, NB

[digital canyon]

As for how it works... Not very well right now, lol.

[buoyant arrow]

But I was too little to play. The first game I played was The Settlers 2 with my dad. It's how learned to read.

[summer night]

Sonic 2 playing for hours

[buoyant arrow]

Games were kinda put into my cradle.

[forest glacier]

As an American I like the woods and Owning property so IDK how to feel about this LMAO

[lime laurel]

alberta is going through it

its very funny

if a little sad

[buoyant arrow]

Dope. My neighbour had Sega Saturn. We'd always go over and play Sonic games there.

Or was it a dreamcast? I can'T recall

[golden rapids]

If you have a wii also get into dumping the firmware using an IC-clip, once you know that you'll be able to protect against accidentally bricking it even without the boot2 stuff.

[summer night]

first game i ever finished was sonic 2 left the console on all night for 2 days

no saves

just pure game

[buoyant arrow]

I remember the weekends when a new Zelda game came out. Me and my brother were always forbidden from playing games before my dad had beaten them. Because if we did beat them first, we'd horribly backseat him. LUL

[lime laurel]

dont got my wii anymore sadly. never backed up my saves either, so rip my og launch ac:cf save

[summer night]

ahahhahaha

[lime laurel]

i wanna get my wii u going again but i gotta get a power brick and charger for it again

[golden rapids]

For me it was bricking windows 95, as I wanted to know what all the configuration options did and without being able to read I just tried each and every one of them. Which back then wasn't a good idea. Nowerdays windows is more or less padded. I don't know of a single setting that you're able to change in the GUI (without edditing files or the command line) that would make the system unable to boot or reverting it...

[forest glacier]

I think the only thing I ever truly bricked was an android phone......A 3 year old could brick those things XD

[summer night]

me favourite memories of my dad me and my bro playing LAN age of empires 2

[buoyant arrow]

OOoooof. Yeah. Those old system kinda expected you to know what you're doing.

[golden rapids]

You still own it. You still can put up fences for your young trees. However if you want to put it over any of the forrest trails you'll have to put a gate there that everyone is able to pass through...

[summer night]

now my dad thinks games are for wasting time

[buoyant arrow]

Oh hell yeah! I'd play that so much with my brother and my cousin every time they visited! THey parents would bring their pcs over as well.

[summer night]

just fell out of love

[summer night]

used to spend hours

was bliss

[golden rapids]

Get a lab power supply, esp. if you also want to tinker with other things. Then you'll just have to put some jumper wires in and set it to the right voltage.

[forest glacier]

Yea see in America thats not owning it, if it comes with restrictions, anything I cant do with or on MY property it isnt mine. So people walking through is like.....no.

Maybe its calm enough in your country for that to be okay but that would lead to infinite domestic violence cases and breaking and entering cases

[summer night]

yeah sounds like the UK rambling laws

[buoyant arrow]

I'mma head out and make dinner. Ya'll have a wonderful [your current time of day]

[forest glacier]

Happy Timezone

[golden rapids]

Oh it got worse. After it got "fixed" aka reinstalled for me the first time I and started to be able to read I wanted to know what all the system files did and I launched them in alphabetical order just to see what happens 😄

[summer night]

happy timezoneing

[summer night]

sound like my brother who wanted more space so deleted the program files so you couldnt uninstall or reinstall

REFORMAT THE DRIVE

[golden rapids]

Well he's not wrong. That's literally one of the reasons for playing them... Distracting yourself from all of the stuff around you and having some relaxing time to calm down and not think about any of it is also nothing to be taken for nothing. It is literally selfcare and if it is e.g. an MMO it also is social interaction...