streamchat

[fresh ginkgo]

Which is a good thing.

What's not good is when people abuse that

[idle iris]

The way it works you can pull an EA or Ubisoft and have digital-service only games and if EA or Ubisoft just arbitrarily stops running those servers, your game breaks, even single-player games now. For instance, Assassin's Creed Brotherhood has huge chunks of the game ripped out becuase Ubisoft forced players to get those parts of the game through their servers, and stopped supporting them. So if you want to play it, you can only play the parts that shipped originally, and multiplayer is completely out of the question.

[fresh ginkgo]

Basically

[earnest mirage]

Than rewrite and redirect the whole thing.
In the state it is, it will effect everything. Plain MMOs without any singleplayer functions, included.

[fresh ginkgo]

Private servers are only a "technically" illegal

Has to be manually pursued

So don't try to take away the protections, but instead go after the companies that abuse them

[idle iris]

In the state it is it's only putting things in front of EU member states' noses and they would get teams of experts, including people from the industry of course, to figure out a lot more about what to do before forming laws and regulations.
Everyone thinks this is analogous to a bill going before the US Congress already written with the implementations in place. It really isn't.

[fresh ginkgo]

But yeah.
The system already is set up in such a way that, if the company doesn't go after you, then there are zero consequences

[idle iris]

That's...what this does? Nothing in the initiative changes international copyright law or the IP rights in any way...

[fresh ginkgo]

Oh, no I'm not talking about the initiative specifically

[orchid abyss]

I know I can't speak for all Americans, but as far as I could tell, it only looked like a petition to lawmakers to "do something and save my game!!" Kind of like those activist websites you sign up for on one issue, and then get spammed to death until you tell them to go away

[fresh ginkgo]

I'm talking about everyone who keeps saying "we just want private servers to be legal, and prevent companies from going after people"

[kindred prawn]

This appears to be the text of the petition, if anyone’s curious: https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#

[fresh ginkgo]

I'm saying no, the ability to do so exists for good reason, we should instead be directing our anger at the companies who abuse it

[idle iris]

Well the initiative is a desperate attempt to even get the bare minimum done. The stuff about not going after private servers is more complex and not really in that.

[fresh ginkgo]

I know.
But people keep bringing it up anyways so may as well try to address it, I suppose

I love private servers for games, and do think they should be allowed to exist.
However, speaking as a creative, I also don't think we should strip away the existing protections in order to do so.

[idle iris]

Well speaking as an American, when I went to a website to e-mail my Congressman to save Net Neutrality, I found out real quickly that my Congressman was paid off because he gave a canned response about Net Neutrality being evil and too limiting to capitalism, etc. etc.
Ross said in a previous video with America we have wayyyyyy fewer consumer protections laws and regulations and it's far more of an uphill battle than in the EU.

[orchid abyss]

Here's what gets me about game business: Let's say I open a vending business, run it for a few years, not happy with the profits, so close it. I don't just let everything rot. I sell off the assets to recoup my costs. Say I'm a game publisher (though could be extended to any entertainment publishing)? Let those assets rot in a warehouse.

[fresh ginkgo]

That's... not really a fitting analogy

[orchid abyss]

Know exactly what you mean. Makes me want to scream.

[fresh ginkgo]

I think what a lot of people forget in all this is that video games aren't only a product

They are a creative work

[idle iris]

Ross compared it more to Right to Repair, which is already getting precedents set when companies like Apple were bricking phones and tablets that weren't specifically repaired at the Genius Bar. Turns out that's extremely anti-competitive business practice and violates right to repair, and the courts agreed.

[fresh ginkgo]

I just worry that too many people are treating video games as a product only, disregarding the creativeworks side that is the reason they have the protections they do

"Well these laws are there to protect the developer not the consumer!" yeah no sh**

[orchid abyss]

Yes, they are a creative work. Same with a painting, song, etc etc. If I publish a novel, it goes out into the world, and people can buy, sell, trade what they bought. Can't do that with a game. If I buy a priceless piece of art and go out onto the street, trash it and ruin it in an act of "performative art," I'm free to do so. Not with a game.

[fresh ginkgo]

With most games, you are.

[idle iris]

Right but if the artist of a painting comes and takes it back, that's theft. And if they sell it then say "Oh that was just a rental buddy time's up" that's fraud.

[orchid abyss]

There is something to be said about some forms of art as in 10-20 years, it gets reused and whoever owns the rights can get residuals off that use. So far, that hasn't happened with games.

[fresh ginkgo]

The tricky thing is where you get into digital copies

Because that is a very, very messy field in regards to defining who has what

[idle iris]

Which is why this is mostly about historical preservation and archiving of older games as well.

[fresh ginkgo]

But my point is not about that

My point is

We need a way to address these issues

[orchid abyss]

Even with DMCA, as I understand International and US copyright law, this is perfectly legal already.

[fresh ginkgo]

WITHOUT weakening existing protections

Any route that risks weakening the existing protections? I cannot stand by, speaking as a creative.

[idle iris]

Kinda. But if the IP holders of a current game wants to file a takedown on an abandonware site they can (and of course everyone loves pointing out examples like Nintendo doing so viciously)

[latent parrot]

CC-BY-SA is cool 😄

[kindred prawn]

It’s wild to me that there isn’t anything that I know of that legislatively prevents the destruction of films in the US. It used to be a common practice back in the 20s, but fell out of fashion when they started being able to sell reruns and things. I’m still on Coyote vs Acme being destroyed last year for a tax write off. (Even though it was probably mid)
Near as I can tell no creatives involved in that project wanted it to be destroyed, and yet it’s now likely we’ll never see it.

[fresh ginkgo]

Consumer rights should not overrule developer rights.
Nor should developer rights overrule consumer rights.

The simplest way to put it

Nor should either override publisher rights, and vice-versa

[idle iris]

WB did that to multiple movies including Batgirl. There's other studios doing it too as I understand it. Exploiting tax loopholes to make something and kill it is surprisingly old practice, if you remember Uwe Boll's tax-exploitation shenanigans, making god-awful movies that bombed and getting his money back through tax writeoffs and incentives for years.

[fresh ginkgo]

Balance needs to be found and maintained

[astral shuttle]

Did we find that Terry crews clip?

[fresh ginkgo]

And a lot of the arguments out there right now feel very narrow-minded and selfish in that regard

Placing their position in the triangle as somehow being more important than any other

[orchid abyss]

The problem, as I see it, with the game industry, is we (I'm going to include myself since I'm trying to make a game... trying) are inheriting software laws from companies that really do have a fixed lifetime. Who gives a crap about Windows 3.1 these days (unless you're Southwest Airlines)? I still love Ulitma 6 (came out about the same time).

[idle iris]

Well that's the internet and activism for you. Instead of finding a common goal (preservation of videogames) and coming together at the table for something as simple as signing an initiative that could easily take the full year to get it's million-signature goal, people settle in on their positions, get vitriolic and block all discourse and the status quo is inevitably upheld as a result.

[kindred prawn]

I think a fundamental question here is “should a creative have the right to destroy their own work?” That then extends to “should a corporation have the right to destroy work it acquired from a creative?” and “should a creative lead have the right to destroy the work of other creatives in the team?”

[fresh ginkgo]

On the first question?

Yes, absolutely.

The other two? No, absolutely not

[earnest mirage]

how?
If you force them to make their code public, you trample on their copyright...

[fresh ginkgo]

Exactly

[orchid abyss]

@idle iris As a minor student of that nasty P word, this is history, and not a new phenomenon.

[fresh ginkgo]

I never once proposed forcing them to make their code public

[summer night]

morning people, we on about the initiative I see. i have a question to the Floor if i may. what games do you think falls within this initiative i know "The Crew" is the example that the initiative uses but what games do you think fall within it?

[fresh ginkgo]

I actually think that would be a horrible idea

I may not know what the best course of action here would be but I can still tell that so far, the ideas that have been pushed don't quite work.

[summer night]

agree with it or not what games

[fresh ginkgo]

There's not really enough balance so far

[earnest mirage]

the only thing you can do, like i already said, is talking with the publisher / ip holder and try to find an individual solution.

[fresh ginkgo]

Which already is an option in the current system

[earnest mirage]

and works multiple times

[fresh ginkgo]

^

[earnest mirage]

ut99/2k4 for example

[fresh ginkgo]

I mean look at city of heroes: homecoming

That is a brilliant example of the proper way to go about this sort of thing, without either side having to be trampled over

They put in the legwork, negotiated with the rightsholders, and now have the full go-ahead to run that private server

[idle iris]

Mainly games that, by design, have required hardware and software checks by the developers and publishers that the game only functions when they deign to support it. I remember when SimCity 2008 came out and people lost their absolute shit at EA for having always-online DRM for a single-player game. Then they calmed down and put up with it, and voted with their wallets that they're totally fine with these kinds of practices going forward, so EA didn't really pivot at all from the practice.

[fresh ginkgo]

And pretty much everyone is, in fact, against this specific practice

Even Thor

[kindred prawn]

The other day I bought a skin for Fortnite, and I’ve been stuck thinking about what a horrible deal it was. I spent like $20 for the right to access a rigged, textured, 3d model in a single game, for so long as Epic deems I should do so.

Compare that to a 3d model off MyMiniFactory for $14 where I get the model, the texture, and the ability to manipulate the model as I see fit (though still not use it commercially)

[fresh ginkgo]

He has stated multiple times (including in the SKG video) that he thinks it's a s****y practice

[earnest mirage]

Half life 2 was the one of, or maybe the first forced online service game iirc.

[kindred prawn]

Spore (2008) comes to mind as an early example

[orchid abyss]

doesn't always work. There's been a few cases of good faith negotiating for rights to run a public server of an MMO being closed, and the publisher just ignored the request.

[idle iris]

I brought that up earlier when my friend told me he bought skins and equipment in his Assassin's Creed games that are no longer accessible, permanently, because Ubisoft shut down the servers, when they could've just put them in on Steam or something indefinitely.

[fresh ginkgo]

How long did they keep fighting for?

CoH:H spent several years on this

[orchid abyss]

depends on how you define it. I believe StarCraft required online registration to install, but that was 25 years ago, and my memory is probably crap about it.

[fresh ginkgo]

Also when it comes to big companies, you have to keep in mind that there's often no way to tell the difference between "ignored" and "haven't seen it yet"

[latent parrot]

You only have to ask one question. Would accepting the request bring any profit? If no, then it ain't happening.

[fresh ginkgo]

Untrue.

[idle iris]

StarCraft had a CD-key check, and in the initial installer you could actually just put AAAA-AAAA-AAAA or something and it would be good. It didn't check that until you went to play on Battle.net

[fresh ginkgo]

Again, CoH:H

NCSoft aint profiting off that.
They still, eventually, gave it the goahead

[orchid abyss]

Star Wars Galaxies and Warhammer Online are both running as emulated services these days and no signs of original rights holders trying to shut either down.

[latent parrot]

Oh wow it happened once, maybe a dew more times. They are unfortunately the exceptions here.

[fresh ginkgo]

No, not exceptions

They prove that it's possible to do this

How often do people try?

Genuinely try

Instead of either sidestepping it thinking they should just be able to do whatever, or giving up early

[kindred prawn]

Quite a few, I should think. I don’t have any data on this, but people usually like going through official channels

[fresh ginkgo]

I cannot stand these cynical takes of "Oh it's a company, so they're automatically terrible"

No, screw off with that stuff

[orchid abyss]

how genuinely do you want? if you look up emulated servers for closed MMOs, there's a not short list of games in some stage of development, some not been touched in a few years, others just being really slow.

[fresh ginkgo]

I'm getting heated about it so time to try and step away

[idle iris]

Right. That was benevolence on their part. What the initiative is asking for is the bare minimum of releasing server binaries and such so that players could theoretically run private servers. Yes, that could get expensive for the players, yes there's hardware and manpower and all that going in, but that's up to the consumer to handle. They're only really asking for the potential to do it because as things are, if the dev shutters or closes the servers and doesn't voluntarily release that code, the game irreversibly dies.

[orchid abyss]

Be chill, my dude. It's important, but not so important to blow your top over! 😄

[kindred prawn]

Responsible response

[fresh ginkgo]

Some mindsets just really, really aggrovate me

Such as the type of mindset that default assumes companies will always take the greedy approach

Instead of realizing that they still consist of people

Not just some faceless entity

[summer night]

thats understandable my dude but its not worth going red in the face some poeple see some people dont 🙂 just chill have a breath 🙂

[idle iris]

Ultima Online also has private servers run on older versions of the client (primarily pre-Trammel, apparently) that EA doesn't mind existing because it proves their community still wants to play the game, and they aren't risking violating EA's copyright because the game's running for free. So yes there's numerous examples of communities still playing the older multiplayer-only games.

[forest glacier]

Whas goin on in streamchat today

[latent parrot]

It consists of people, but emergent behaviours tend to show a strong influence too.

No not all companies are greedy, though we can agree that the greed of publishers does exist, EA, Sony, Epic, etc

[summer night]

ferrets

[fresh ginkgo]

One big reason I can't stand the "big company always wrong" type of mindset is that it never really stops to ask why companies act the way they do

[forest glacier]

cool. I see a lotta words and I feel like sh:t so I thought I'd ask

[dusk sluice]

No no just all ferrets

[fresh ginkgo]

Like when everyone gets mad at Nintendo, when they're basically acting out of paranoia and a lack of business-sense, rather than any kind of malice

[dusk sluice]

We finnaly got into ferrets

[fresh ginkgo]

They don't really get when it is or isn't a threat to their IP so they just assume it always is.

Which is likely to change as more business-savvy leadership comes in over time

So that's just one example of why the mentality ticks me off so much

...
Goddammit I've gone into a rage ramble again -.-

[dusk sluice]

Then stop and go touch grass.

[latent parrot]

Soulless spreadsheets dictating who gets to keep their job, which assets to buy prompting cost cutting, and a lot of other stuff.

Companies are not just people, they're whole systems that shape the general behaviour of said people, and often the richest companies get there through greedy systems. Not always, but prioritizing profit gets you there.

[fresh ginkgo]

Grass makes me itchy

[idle iris]

I've always found that remark more demeaning than "Maybe go for a walk or watch kitten videos or something to calm down"

You meant well I'm sure.

[kindred prawn]

I think it’s taken on a life beyond the original insult, personally

[fresh ginkgo]

^

[idle iris]

True

[fresh ginkgo]

Speaking of

Hilarious realization I had last stream

[orchid abyss]

Touching grass is a good thing (unless you're a vtuber).

[forest glacier]

Im in a desert, im triggered

[summer night]

i think it started out as a demeaning remark but now it just more true

[fresh ginkgo]

"Ligma" has reached a point where you can actually now give a genuine, non-ligma answer to the question "What is ligma?"

[idle iris]

That said there's solid psychological evidence that heavy internet use and low socialization are linked to serious mental illness, depression, etc. etc.

[orchid abyss]

@forest glacier you can always pet a cactus.... just find one without thorns

[fresh ginkgo]

Because it's now used to refer to an entire category of memes

[latent parrot]

Some badly informed decision to maintain and/or raise the sales targets of the sales team in Cloudflare even after their market share is insane, it lead to the sales teams becoming scummy, greedy, and evin begin holding websites hostage. Not just 1 or 2 members, it was quite an issue.

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/peanutbuttergamer-pbg-austin-hargrave-grass-eat-the-grass-gif-13354861

[idle iris]

I had a paragraph about the ferret rescue stuff but it was going to get way too dark given we're already getting tense in here so I deleted it.

[summer night]

BOOOOOO bring it back

i want the ferrets

[fresh ginkgo]

No

Xi, read

Ferrets good

Dark info about ferrets bad

[dusk sluice]

Ferrets are better then this. Bring on the ferrets

[summer night]

no i think the chat was too dark

[fresh ginkgo]

"Was going to get way to dark"

Was referring to the ferret paragraph

[summer night]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[fresh ginkgo]

This is made clear by the chat tense-ness being given as a reason why

TYBRON PLEASE DELETE

[summer night]

yes thats dark delete it

[fresh ginkgo]

CENSORED OR NOT THAT IS TOO MUCH

[idle iris]

Yeah

It's gone

[latent parrot]

[fresh ginkgo]

I mean ferret stealing sandwich is fine

The rest of it? NOPE

[latent parrot]

Before i sleep, i need to meet my rust shilling quota

[dusk sluice]

So shirty people do shorty thing to animals.

[idle iris]

I'd imagine Thor has to hear about that shit regularly so my heart goes out to him

[fresh ginkgo]

I wish to one day visit the rescue if allowed, once it is built

For I live only one state south of Thor

[dusk sluice]

They don't usualy allow people in such places. Only when it's events.

[fresh ginkgo]

:<

Not even to interact with ferrets, just to say "I was there. It is awesome I was there"

[summer night]

i thought it was a ferret crime syndicate who stole phones and wallets and the hearts of the victims as they go AWWWWWWWWWW look at them wait thats my phone

[forest glacier]

you could tell Thor wanted to consider it tho

[dusk sluice]

Animal safety as there's plenty of dumb people who will do utter dumb things even when told not to

[fresh ginkgo]

Seeing ferrets is one thing.
But I don't think I could handle interacting with them

[dusk sluice]

If you ever do take a Gnom whit you

[fresh ginkgo]

Bad childhood experience

[orchid abyss]

And this is how Thor became a complete hermit IRL, never leaving his property.

[fresh ginkgo]

No, if I were to go see a Thor location in person I would instead bring a tiny handcrafted clay goblin figure.

And just.. hide it somewhere when nobody was looking

[summer night]

sister is the same with butterflies i have no idea what happened to her but she screams when we sees them

[orchid abyss]

Somehow that's worse.... "The goblins!! They're always watching!!"

[fresh ginkgo]

....
OHFEK I JUST HAD AN ART IDEA THAT I MUST ACT UPON

I WILL NOT SAY UNTIL IT IS COMPLETED

[forest glacier]

I feel like if people were allowed to visit the ferrets would be put in their cages at visiting time and only one or two are brought out to visit. Could be like Wolf sanctuaries do, paid sessions of limited size. Its not hard to imagine working well

[summer night]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ART BE CREATIVE!!!!!

[astral shuttle]

Seen this? https://youtu.be/JgKbe5tcgZ0?si=RII8hXWC5ST6RjkL

[dusk sluice]

Would be like 5 years waiting list. To see ferrets. Good profit to help the place.

[forest glacier]

I feel like this can stay internal...We dont need the non-tech savvy masses worried that regex is gonna come for their machine like the boogie man

[latent parrot]

regex evil

[dusk sluice]

OK back to doing work

[kindred prawn]

Evil? Actually I find it quite regular

[forest glacier]

(Cheer\d)|(BibleThump\d)|(cheerwhal\d)|(Corgo\d)|(uni\d)|(ShowLove\d)|(Party\d)|(SeemsGood\d)|(Pride\d)|(Kappa\d)|(FrankerZ\d)|(HeyGuys\d)|(DansGame\d)|(EleGiggle\d)|(TriHard\d)|(Kreygasm\d)|(4Head\d)|(SwiftRage\d)|(NotLikeThis\d)|(FailFish\d)|(VoHiYo\d)|(PJSalt\d)|(MrDestructoid\d)|(bday\d)|(Shamrock\d) DEALWITHIT

[orchid abyss]

I'll have to admit, there's a few points I had a hard time following along. My skills are very dated. I got my degree, but ended up not getting a job in tech.

[latent parrot]

my fav regex is +

[summer night]

to be honest this whole thing reminds me of a episode of futurama when bender is telling a ghost story

Bender: And even though the computer was off and unplugged, an image stayed on the screen. It was ... the Windows logo!

Fry: Pft, that's not scary!

Bender: It is if you're a laser printer.

[latent parrot]

% s <Space> <Space> + <Enter> c <Space>

The amount of times I have to do this... my spacebar has debounce issues so i need to remove duplicate spaces constantly

[forest glacier]

LOLWUT.. I use Regex for Chatterino, I dont actually "use" it for anything outside of that. I just posted my filter that highlights cheermessages in Twitch chat with a green color.

[sweet prawn]

[latent parrot]

I just use very simple regexes for selection manipulation. I dislike complex ones

Hard to understand

Their ability to hide wierd bugs is uncanny

[forest glacier]

Well I used parenthesis because the example on Chatterino's DOCs had them, and I learned the OR symbol and that /d will catch any number.

[latent parrot]

huh

[forest glacier]

the | is OR

[latent parrot]

Yes

[forest glacier]

ok idk u said you know basics and now idk what you do and dont know lol.

[latent parrot]

I just said I dislike big, complex regexes in code. They tend to hide bugs

And are generally just hard to think through

[forest glacier]

Well Thor said his Heimdall Regex was only 2 lines. So I suppose he is also a fan of small regex

[latent parrot]

Only 2 lines? How many chars

[forest glacier]

He hasnt said on stream before to my memory

[latent parrot]

Have you seen the prime number tester regex

[forest glacier]

Im assuming its just a match filter like mine with slurs and topics

[latent parrot]

The regex will take any unary number and tell you if it's prime or not

Welp gn

[fresh ginkgo]

CHAT

BEHOLD

THE GOBBET

LOOKATIT

GOBLIN AND FERRET COMBINED INTO ONE CREATURE

A TRUE EMBODIMENT OF CHAT

[summer night]

OMG I LOVE IT

[fresh ginkgo]

@minor nymph I don't normally ping but I DEEM THIS WORTHY OF YOUR ATTENTION

There, someone put one seven so I added 3 other varieties of 7 to bypass the discord react restrictions

Enjoy

[naive spoke]

Wow, this is pretty based.

Love it.

[dusk sluice]

Add glasses and long magical hair then it will Gobret Thor

Gobrethor

[fresh ginkgo]

I encourage anyone with even the tiniest spec of art ability, even if it is of the utmost lowest quality, to draw their own

WE SHALL MAKE A LEGION

[balmy finch]

rabid yoda

[serene valley]

no please we don't need ferret / goblin NFTs kthx

(joke)

[fresh ginkgo]

[serene valley]

I deserved that one

[fresh ginkgo]

Do not dare compare me to NFTs

I am proud artist

[digital canyon]

For The Grudge, it was the scene where the ghost's head pop's through the gap in the door, that did it for me.

That was just dumb.

[fresh ginkgo]

.......?

[astral shuttle]

Watching the vod?

That was a short discussion yesturday

I guess my fav horror film was mothman chronicles. Certainly unlike others. Although, I should say alien/s

[cinder yew]

why do I get ads when I'm subscribed

[serene valley]

maybe there's a config to still show ads to subbed people

also, double money for the ferrets :3

[cinder yew]

it also tells me to subscribe for ad free viewing...

[serene valley]

that might be automatic with twitch

[summer night]

or maybe its telling you to wash your hands

its very odd tho i give you that

[cinder yew]

not the first time as well

[summer night]

with the hand washing or the ads?

[cinder yew]

yes

[summer night]

buy.... turbo? and hand soap?

i mean i double protect myself i have a sub and turbo

because a sub doesnt give ad rev but i think turbo does

if i remember correctly

[frank geyser]

I also asked in chat why I got ads when I was subbed on the ferrets channel, it's seems like it's a setting that Thor av enabled on that channel. The funny thing is I got MORE ads as a sub then I got as a not sub on that channel. Or Twitch chose to give me the ads more regularly when I was a paying sub on tier 1 on that channel.

[serene valley]

Ive not had ads in a while and then 2 days ago i had ads suddenly

[summer night]

i dont think thor has that control

[serene valley]

I mean if anything its double money for the ferrets :3

[summer night]

otherwise other streamer who do hour ad breaks would also be doing it no?

[stone nacelle]

basically its on/off and how many per hour

[frank geyser]

according to the mods in chat there, they said Thor enabled ads for the tier 1 subs on that channel

[summer night]

i didnt think that was a option that was available intresting

[cinder yew]

weird that twitch doesn't say anything about it

[summer night]

well blow me down there is a option

you can go up the tiers how strange i mean i dont get ads as turbo turns all ads off on the site but you still count as watching them

very strange

[frank geyser]

I'm not saying it's that way or not that way, I was told it was that way in chat from mods in chat.

I have had the stream open 24/7 for over 6 months now, I even have burn in from that streams layout in my 3rd monitor from that stream. I got served more ads from Twitch end when I was a paying sub then a non paying sub on that channel, so I got less time to watch the ferrets as a mod then I get as a free watcher

[cinder yew]

last part, I basically got no ads before I was subbed

[summer night]

maybe location based maybe? im just spit balling

[quaint wadi]

He has no control on that

He can lower the amount of ads shown at once

And that’s it

[summer night]

Streamer does its in Twitchs stuff

just read it

[cinder yew]

makes me think of opening the twitch app once and getting served nearly 20 pre roll ads

and just instantly closing the app and never using it again

[summer night]

user voices and everything about it

[frank geyser]

I often got ads when I was sleeping before from 03:xx in the nights until 07:50 in the mornings then I got during the times I'm at my PC and have the stream open, as a sub I got served almost every time it was ads time regardless of the time of the day

[quaint wadi]

Laughs in Amazon not caring

[summer night]

pretty much

[quaint wadi]

You know Jeff bezo makes his e-mail public for criticism or so he says so like why don’t we All just email it everyday about twitch improvements

[summer night]

oh its the same with bosses at work "My Door is always open" ....... yeah ofc it is

[quaint wadi]

Yeah till it’s opening with security outside it lmao

[summer night]

that or with HR on the other side

[quaint wadi]

What do you think the equivalent for the cia or fbi be

Snipers?

[summer night]

"We hear you are being disruptive"
Noooooooo

i just want a coffee at my desk

[quaint wadi]

What’s your job?

[summer night]

SRE

[quaint wadi]

I’m currently on college break 😏 jealous aren’t you

[quaint wadi]

No clue lmao

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-real-housewives-of-beverly-hills-vegetables-gif-15621481

[quaint wadi]

Laymen terms what do you do lmao

[weak bolt]

[quaint wadi]

I have 3 days till I confirm class so I’m trying to laze around as much as I can lmao

[summer night]

basiclly keep the servers ticking and invent ways to make defunct software work on new tect

[quaint wadi]

That sounds cool

[summer night]

it is until you try and fix a square peg in a round hole after some smart ass makes a Excel speadsheet with macros and Marcos dont work in the cloud

BUT WE WANT IT THAT WAY

[quaint wadi]

Why are ppl so

[summer night]

this way is better and new

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[quaint wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/cry-gif-23395361

[summer night]

YOU MONSTER

[summer night]

how you get my web cam

[quaint wadi]

Im under your desk bb

[summer night]

users can be so mean

[quaint wadi]

I’m your corporate mandated stalker

[frank geyser]

Why use Exel in the first place, thats just an extra cost to use, when there is a free Google Spreadsheets, thats also cross platform

[summer night]

in that case i want a coffee you deal with helen from accounting

[quaint wadi]

Is Helen attractive tho ?

Cause bet

[summer night]

no you dont want to go they mate

[quaint wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/lion-king-throw-sacrifice-simba-sacrificing-gif-17413569

[summer night]

its mircosoft i tried moving us over to Google years ago

but nooooooo we like it here

but money

noooooooooo

queue the you monster

[frank geyser]

I used Windows (or office) back in the XP days, after that, googles model works fully OK for me

[quaint wadi]

(Stubborn old people ) you hate them but can’t get rid of them cause that’s illegal ( optional)

[frank geyser]

bu then again, I'm not in a huge corp or anything like that

[quaint wadi]

Fair

[summer night]

yeah unfortunately its above my pay grade

[quaint wadi]

I only use windows
Excel and the office suite stuff cause it’s free

With my college account

[frank geyser]

Depends on who you work with, and who you know.

Wife works in a place where no one would be looking for a bodie or two

[summer night]

i mean

thats dark

[frank geyser]

she works in a graveyard 😇

[quaint wadi]

I didn’t know she worked for mappa

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/speechless-nathan-fillion-castle-stumped-gif-5469000

[quaint wadi]

( I’m a lil dyslexic

[quaint wadi]

I’m dead head ass

Fr

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-skeleton-meme-man-skeletron-fortnite-gif-8574616040851063459

[quaint wadi]

10/10 set up

[summer night]

i walked into it

well played bravo

[quaint wadi]

Like how their wife walks into it

[summer night]

so @quaint wadi see you're new around these parts whats you looking for?

[thorny kelp]

I just woke up, I am trying to formulate a joke about how Harrasment training is not a thing if you are the only one working the graveyard but my brain must have an intel 13th or 14th gen and refuses to work without caffeine

[summer night]

i have that but the blue screen

[thorny kelp]

Ohh because you have blue eyes? 😮

[summer night]

got my coffee no then you arnt getting nothing till i do

but yes also my lovely blue eyes

https://tenor.com/view/eyes-harry-potter-gif-19211211

[frank geyser]

To be clear, i was also working on a graveyard before, but that employment ended last year, cant legally say more

[summer night]

was it because they worked you to the bare bones?

[frank geyser]

All I can say, i had to sign a NDA about it

[summer night]

if its a joke im going to be disapointed with myself but i have to its to many questions.... an NDA

[quaint wadi]

I binge thors shorts regularly

So I joined hoping to make some friends

[quaint wadi]

Blink twice if your a serial killer

[summer night]

ahhhh a fellow shorts enjoyer

very good very nice

[quaint wadi]

Thank qt

[frank geyser]

NDA = Non-disclosure agreements

[thorny kelp]

NDA = Noodles Definitively Accepted 😄

[quaint wadi]

Nude dads agreement

[summer night]

wait your being serious you had a NDA for Graveyard

[quaint wadi]

I mean it makes sense

Privacy of the loved ones

[summer night]

BUT THEY ARE IN THE GROUND

[quaint wadi]

They’re just humble bro trust

[thorny kelp]

It is not an NDA to protect the dearly departed, it is an NDA to protect the Not so dearly that are yet to depart -_-

[frank geyser]

NDA when you start and end the employment about graveyards

[quaint wadi]

Very grounded with reality

[summer night]

right and on the amazing fact i have to deal with a power automation flow thats deciding that it doesnt like the parameters i gave it... whats the betting user messed with the template

https://tenor.com/view/work-homer-work-workis-no-fun-gif-23021397

[frank geyser]

Lets just say, we know where all the bones are berried after the "lease" for the grave have ended

[quaint wadi]

Wdym lease

Huh

Wait do you not keep the plot

[summer night]

nah hold up Lease

[frank geyser]

Here you only rent them for 50, 30 or 75 years

[quaint wadi]

What the cinnamon toastfuck

[summer night]

i thought you bought the plot

[quaint wadi]

Same

I’m fine tho cause when I die my body is getting shipped to Brazil and being buried in my ancestral land

[frank geyser]

After between 25-30 years your bodie and bones are no longer "there" so unless you plan to make it a family plot, "you" no longer need that plot. Someone else will need it

[quaint wadi]

How is that right

Do you guys just toss the bones

Like WTF

[summer night]

i mean thats the NDA

[quaint wadi]

Fair

[summer night]

BUT WOW

[frank geyser]

Yes the NDA

[quaint wadi]

Dude

Certain cultures

Are very particular on funeral practices

Jesus

[summer night]

This US Graveyards?

[frank geyser]

No European

[quaint wadi]

surprising seemed like it’d be in the us

[summer night]

which country ?

[quaint wadi]

Bro is like i gotta make sure i won’t be buried here

[summer night]

thats more surpising i was thinking this could be a us thing

[quaint wadi]

I was thinking Florida

[summer night]

but europe

[frank geyser]

Lets just say, we have some graves on that graveyard from 1535 that the original person are still below the stone. Never been opened.

Some are moved after as little as 30 years

[quaint wadi]

Jesus

[summer night]

please dont say its the uk

wait uk isnt euro

[frank geyser]

No, but an island

[summer night]

brexit i forgot that

is it the french

[quaint wadi]

Ireland ?

[quaint wadi]

Denmark.

?

[frank geyser]

Further up north

[quaint wadi]

Finland?

[cinder yew]

some issues on the ferret stream

[frank geyser]

Yes

[quaint wadi]

I mean same thing Scandinavia

[strange owl]

it's just the usual cam acting up

It does that after 3h

[quaint wadi]

/j I swear

[strange owl]

Needs a reset later

[quaint wadi]

Camera is not friendshaped

[summer night]

im blown away

https://tenor.com/view/the-more-you-know-the-more-you-suffer-gif-10803732

[fossil sapphire]

found an article about it, but due to enshittification, old articles are now paywalled.

[serene valley]

Yeah i know i meant it as a "twitch doesnt know what it wants"

[quaint wadi]

Stonks

[frank geyser]

We dont have enough off a room for more new graves to be done, so we have to reuse them already made

[strange owl]

I have no idea what you are talking about with the graves and ages, but there are multiple graves within throwing distance from here that are several thousand years old.

Much old, very grave

[quaint wadi]

Womp womp

[summer night]

yeah but i was asking why they had a NDA and then they told us why

legit know where the the bodies are

or the bones anyway

[frank geyser]

This graveyard are located between old Vikings ruins, a school and a neighborhood. We cant expand more

[summer night]

good on finland for.........recycling...........

technically

[frank geyser]

True

[summer night]

we do plastic bags you do bones

[frank geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/pss-kitty-bones-my-all-gif-12398662

[quaint wadi]

Stonks

[warm trench]

Don't forget to stockpile some ligma's here.

Thor needs enough material to keep Primeagen in a perpetual state, if I understood the request last stream.

[exotic swallow]

So who is gonna tell him Defcon was cancelled?

[summer night]

he already knows

its always cancelled

[gleaming stag]

The first rule about defcon is that you don't talk about defcon

[summer night]

whats this ||Defcon||

https://tenor.com/view/shhh-shush-silence-nose-gif-17895433

[restive copper]

Updated image for xbarbrox

[summer night]

look at the WET BOI

[restive copper]

Also the side by side

[summer night]

thats defo pickle hiting the water again

[sweet steppe]

Defo not.

[summer night]

thats not pickle

[sweet steppe]

Nope

[summer night]

which furry baby is this?

[sweet steppe]

Pretty sure thats Spud

[restive copper]

Upclose snoot @sweet steppe

[sweet steppe]

Yee gonna guess Spud @restive copper

[summer night]

yup not pickle thought with this https://www.twitch.tv/ferretsoftware/clip/InquisitiveHedonisticDragonHumbleLife-R-DP1gyPjtYy3WL-

[restive copper]

@sweet steppe

[dry osprey]

Sniffers

[lunar sage]

Where my bonekeepers at

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/admiral-boom-mary-poppins-returns-down-the-hatches-gif-14539925

here we go.... again

[split burrow]

[summer night]

i wouldnt mind but im currently in the middle of writing a youtube comment at somehow 2299 words

and im not finished

[idle iris]

Actually this second video was vastly calmer, explained Thor's and the dev's sides a lot better and didn't condescend or rip on Ross' movement in any real way. Bravo, Thor, you knocked that second video out of the park and I find myself completely agreeing with you on all points.

[summer night]

im half way and yup this is alot more talking to us goblins that your wrong and ill tell you why

yup his saying my point Developers are not the enemy here

. when the Dev teams said no these sucks why are we re-skinning it. Fired. And a new dev team of fresh newbies came in and had no idea of anything but were there to follow orders

[idle iris]

Hmmm it appears there might be a profanity filter that just blocked my last message there, interesting.

[summer night]

i spent hours on this

did you say the f word

[idle iris]

Yeah, it wasn't in a mean way, it was saying the situation was effed up, lol

[summer night]

yeah the server dont like it

why no idea

[idle iris]

The assumption is you won't use that word unless either being inflammatory or talking about tender lovemaking in some sense

[summer night]

you smooth talker you

[serene valley]

default discord filter

[summer night]

its one in the morning ive been awake for 23 hours...... give me the sugar

[idle iris]

I could rephrase it and it might post.
"It's why I said the real issue that forked all of this up was the way the internet leaps to emotional reactivity when someone disagrees, because I can tell that's what really chapped Thor's backside and got him so condescending and snippy on stream and in the first video. He got in defensive "online troll" mode and it really made the first video feel needlessly inflammatory, which in turn just built more backlash, but what's done is done.

There we go. I changed the no-no words.

[serene valley]

I found it interesting that primeagen, without seeing thor's take on it first, essentially said the same things as thor did

[summer night]

yup its the standard response somehow i say no thats silly = YOU HATE MY GAME

noooo

[summer night]

im not its a dev take

as a dev myself i hate it

it sucks

why are devs being made the villian in the stories

i've worked in banking and ISP's

[serene valley]

I haven't made any games (tho working on something rn off and on), but I have modded them, and I know that if I have any say in it and I make a live service game, I want it to work the way where people can host their own servers...
But that would be my choice and as a dev I can choose to do that, BUT THAT'S THEN THE POINT, I get to make that choice there

[summer night]

and im the villain

[idle iris]

What also interested me was when watching the VOD of that 9-hour stream where Thor repeatedly addressed various questions, a significant amount had already been covered by Ross 5 years ago in his "games as a service is fraud" video, which showed me that Thor probably hadn't watched that far back. Not that I blame him, he's a busy guy and that was a 1-hour video after all. But it did show more of Ross' position that it's not about gross ignorance or entitlement, but more about archiving games for the future and battling the trend of just about every game turning into a temporary live-service experience especially in the AAA space. When Ubisoft's prez said "Yeah gamers are just gonna have to #dealwithit you don't own your games anymore" the reaction from the public was "Well if buying a game isn't owning it then piracy isn't stealing"

[serene valley]

do I think it would be awesome if I could just run a server binary to play a 10 year old live service game?? yes, that'd be awesome and I'd love the devs for making that possible

but I realize that it's unrealistic to codify that into law without inviting a ton of abuse

[summer night]

On a personal note, the Internet hate machine is unfortunately very alive and well with this whole subject I have seen the absolute offensive words thrown at myself for my takes because people don’t want to hear it and think I’m saying “Kill them all” this in multiple discord servers. And seen the abuse Thor get in his chat when the topics are being discussed and the same from the other side in the like of Asmongold when he discusses it. Both are very alarming to make it short.

[idle iris]

Mostly because of binary thinking. We (and by this I mean mainstream society by 2024) have been so trained now to think in black-and-white that either you 100% support the movement because it's "fightin' the good fight" or just totally shill for the worst people in the industry, with no nuance.

[summer night]

yeah as i said to someone "I’m buying a disk, not a tea coaster" i understand

then support it

i cant

[serene valley]

lol this

that's how it's supposed to be

[summer night]

i mean not wrong

[serene valley]

a screaming match isn't gonna solve anything

[summer night]

i have my own problems with the ross video the fact that he makes me feel like a baby is main one

[serene valley]

rossman != ross

[idle iris]

On that note, with physical media getting turned into more and more of an obsolete thing, if god help us digital distributors do die off, a LOT of preserved games now would definitely be in jeopardy as well. Sure, Valve has end-of-life contingencies for Steam that would allow users to download the games and play them offline before the servers are shutdown, but then we might not all have stockpiled DVD's, Blu-rays and external HDD's to store all those games either.

[summer night]

oh i know

[serene valley]

rossman is louis rossman

oh ok just clarifying

[summer night]

louise dear following for year

years*

massive supporter of right to repair

[idle iris]

If it makes you feel better, Ross has been going at this for so long that he's feeling pretty beaten down by doomsayers that insist you "can't fight city hall, the corpos always win" and that's why he had to dumb down some of his videos so much to reach those people specifically.

[summer night]

and people liked it

my god

[idle iris]

It didn't bug me that much because I kinda feel his pain there. In the Games as a Service is fraud video he lists over 100 games that, through no fault of the player, are just literally unplayable now because they all had server-checks or DRM that could've been deactivated but weren't, or were improperly deactivated rendering the legit game unplayable (Manhunt 1 I'm looking at you, Rockstar you really botched that one). Only a fraction of those were "online-only", many were single-player or P2P

[summer night]

yeah i called someone out on that not my proudest moment. in the video he has 100 games and you havent watch it

which video

the one thors watching

[idle iris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw

[summer night]

nope no games

oh i know i corrected him

i swear google has never had this many tabs open

my poor ram

[idle iris]

I have 18 open on Opera.

[summer night]

i have 26 on one and 45 on the other

my ram loves me

64% of max

?

like this comment tho

[idle iris]

I had to finally stop using Chrome and embrace Opera GX because man Chrome was managing to just tank everything out with it's memory hogging

[idle iris]

The "Boxes explain everything" meme is one of my faves on Thor's shorts

[summer night]

one day i want him to write something and go do you understand it

no

draw box

Yes

[gleaming stag]

There's probably legit psychology behind the 'backboard drawing as someone talks' thing

[summer night]

https://tenor.com/view/magic-gif-26166638

its magic

[idle iris]

Probably. I mean it does help to have visual aids, especially with visual learners and ADHD kids that would have trouble focusing without more stimuli

[summer night]

your long words mean magic

i have ADHD can you tell

[gleaming stag]

It doesn't even necessarily have to be a proper visual aid. Just something visual that helps your brain hold onto a "physical" thing as you move from concept to concept

[storm lintel]

I appreciate the boxes

[summer night]

its not showing right

im also sleep deprived

[wide fern]

Can confirm that boxes help. I'm a teacher and my students retain the information better when I draw boxes on the board compared to when I just talk

[summer night]

to be honest make sense as i was crap at school until my math teacher made me draw on the board and i understood my times tables in a week

ADHD is a super power but has a major flaw

[idle iris]

I do hope personally when the dust settles and cooler heads prevail there will be some constructive discussion between Thor and Ross on this because there's certainly no malice on either guys' parts I'm sure, and speaking as someone that's followed Accursed Farms since the old Freeman's Mind days I really do believe he's acting in good faith when he says he wants to hear more from experienced devs on how to reasonably accomplish the goals he's set forth.

[summer night]

god my english today

[summer night]

yup

[gleaming stag]

Ross gets the initiative passed, accidentally causes a Resonance Cascade

[idle iris]

FREEMAN YOU FOOL!

[summer night]

i believe if thor / rossman / ross sat down and did a plan of action it would be perfect

[summer night]

no i think he was talkin about ross there

[idle iris]

I know, I was quoting Half-Life 1, what the scientists say if you jump into the beam and die instantly.

[summer night]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

fun fact did you know Gmod servers are based on the back of the a sandbox mod in Half-life 2

[idle iris]

If more people came to the table and put their heads together in cooperation, compromise, humility and reason, we'd get a lot more shit done as a society.

[summer night]

clearly you havent watched boxing

[idle iris]

I don't watch blood sports.

[summer night]

not missing much

why i like my rugby than other sport

[minor turtle]

I think most of the disconnect people are having is that Thor is the type of person that tries to looks at the ripple affect of throwing the rock into the pond before throwing it and most people throw the rock without caring

[idle iris]

That said even boxers usually have some kind of code of honor thing or rather, used to. Oldschool "pugilism" was actually in some ways gentler, because bareknuckle boxing exposes the hands to serious trauma if you hit too hard, they used to actually have to pull punches so as not to shatter their knuckles and fingers. Gloves make injuriously-hard hits far easier to inflict.

[summer night]

thats deep

[brittle crow]

Wish this would happen, but I don't think Thor wants to talk to Ross 😦

[idle iris]

Unfortunately he drew his conclusion on like 1 or 2 recent videos from what I can tell and those were long after the initiative had been introduced, the "Europeans can save gaming!" video was more intended to speak to an audience that was already engaged in it than to random people coming in.

[summer night]

yeah i mean i cant blame a man for his opinion but im not going to force the matter

[hidden haven]

Yup. Thor does not want government involved, Ross wants government involved. The discussion would not be very civil if they had one 😄

[minor turtle]

He doesn't want to talk to Ross he has made that clear he would probably be willing to talk to Rossman though

[hidden haven]

i dont mean it in a bad way

[summer night]

yup Joffarex hit it on the head

Gov in this not the answer

[idle iris]

Ross finds the government involvement angle to be a last-ditch effort though because as he said in his video, we had over 20 years of gaming where this problem wasn't even a thing... and now are looking at 20+ years going forward where the problem is likely to worsen due to rising development and publishing costs especially in the AAA market

[serene valley]

I mean if this gets pushed through say goodbye to SaaS as well ig, because why should it only apply to games

[idle iris]

As he said "If the industry created the problem in the first place, they can solve the problem"

[hidden haven]

Honestly, we did not have this problem for 20+ years because, live service was not as complex or complicated as it is today, I dont think it was anyway

[summer night]

Who asked them to design it like this that’s easy. We did when we improved the graphics, the power the PCs have, the internet, multiplayer, Lan Battles you name it they designed like this because the developers wanted to make a good game which people can enjoy developers don’t want to shut down the games they are gamers like us. The problem is the BIG Publisher the villains in this whole thing don’t care and they won’t even on this proposal, and you are bang on the money it’s to take your money and take it next time…… Fifa new skin same stuff.

good i really did write this arugments well im well happy

[idle iris]

Precisely, in that event it's weird that people are saying they're attacking devs when the people doing the real damage in the industry are nearly always on the publishing side of it. The EA DRM suckery, Ubisoft shenanigans, NFT tie-ins, etc. etc. are always made by the people looking to maximize profit and squeeze the consumer of every dime they can.

[summer night]

Then don’t do it okay they won’t. That or give up the servers. they would cancel it in a heartbeat the main reason the developers use BIG publisher for this is because they have the farms to do it. isn’t about communities with a dedicated server they don’t care about that anything like that it would be cancelled in a heartbeat by the publishers because they don’t control it. why do you think indies have dedicated servers because the Dev Team care about the player. Palworld is a Prime example no publisher = dedicated servers. Ark / 7 Days to Die / V rising /Enshrouded hell even Rust and Minecraft and Microsoft tried to shut them down and got told to take a walk and Mojang fought for it so we could have dedicated servers and Microsoft listened its why Rare studios launched Dedicated servers because Microsoft amazingly learnt.

[serene valley]

Also sometimes devs wallets are just out of money so they have no choice

[hidden haven]

One big thing I never see mentioned by people who are "mocking" that devs will actually have to do more work is this: are you willing to preserve game if it meant it would probably cost you 5-10 more dollars? Are you willing to wait for game to be done for 1 year? maybe 2 more?

When whole cyberpunk drama was happening, everyone was so defensive of devs having to crunch, but can't see how this could possibly backfire on that end either.

Although I do not think just shutting down the servers is the good thing either. Games that have single player experience to them should still of course be playable, but I cannot come up with a way you could keep live service games like Helldivers 2, Warframe and such be played without actually developing separate game

[summer night]

its not i know devs who love their game they dont want it to die

[idle iris]

Can servers really not be emulated for games that big?

[summer night]

its a sore topic

[hidden haven]

the problem is that such games have progression attached to them

[summer night]

https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/1254/why-are-private-game-servers-illegal

second answer

[hidden haven]

i do not think currently there exists a good solution to have such progression, tied to account, get untied and be usable in private servers

unless one swears to stay only on single private service with all of their "gear"

Helldivers 2 is also different experience as it has events happen literally "live" as far as I know. I remember there was new faction that was spawning or that community came together to kill X amount of Y alien to progress further, and that the game had a "DM of sorts"

[idle iris]

Oh. That wasn't addressed in the initiative.
In fact, I already gave examples like all the UO, EQ, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. player-run servers being up and running but yeah you do have to make entirely new characters on those and start from scratch. Can't dust off your 15-year old Paladin from a Sony server and put him on them as much as you'd love to do so.

[hidden haven]

you cannot really emulate that t obe playable.

Again, not saying just making iit outright not plyable is a way out, but it is not a simple "just expose binaries lol" or "just remove drm"

[hidden haven]

makes sense yes, probably the only real way out

[summer night]

Now is it possible to have private servers yes 100% yes and you are correct they have made 1,000’s if not 10,000’s I know this because I did it. and yes battlefield 3 is playable without EA Servers and the Modding communities around it do a stella job hands down. But to play on them servers you need to mod your game to allow access to them and its legal under EU and UK and US law until you use the EA-owned Assets then EA will come a knocking which is why all the assets in the game on these servers are all custom or fair use which is why Gmod is fine. And WoW (2006) does have private servers these on the other hand are not modded they are mainly dev servers that have been leaked and are usually buggy (had to reset mine every 30 mins because it was crashing like hell) And the same with SWG (2007). And I had 300 people across both and I said hey guys mind giving me 1 pound a month to keep the servers maintained. And before I had finished the sentence, I had 2 letters 1 from Blizzard and the other from Sony.

[hidden haven]

If we could make data attached to a person, we would've already solved social networks and person-in-internet already

[summer night]

again if this looks like im shouting im not

[idle iris]

And that's why I thought NFT-bros were absolutely full of shit when they said tying in NFT's to games would ensure complete portability of a unique profile to every game

[summer night]

its just something i wrote down while arguing

[hidden haven]

understandable 😄 honestly it is very easy to lose cool when the person you are arguing with or discussing something is not trying to have a conversaton with you but is actively trying to shit on your view

[summer night]

i mean he was rubbing me the wrong way and attacking devs

[hidden haven]

yup exactly

[summer night]

if they go under tomorrow the servers will stop. But the copyright that’s still in play. The reason why most are around currently because its community driven and that beautiful support it always but if they step on the gray they would also be targeted and those case you cant win. Take Nintendo vs Pointcrow of the multiplayer mod for Zelda.

[hidden haven]

i learnt that my trigger is that when ssome people in this argument say that "oh if live service games die out its good, small price to pay, isn't it a good thing? etc"

[summer night]

tbh in my rant i did fine something intresting

[hidden haven]

yeah, nfts could honestly have application i ngames, like maybe for some cosmetics or such, but not to the game profile or account

[summer night]

a data mine on the crew showed a offline mode

more than likely a QA thing

[hidden haven]

I have not played the crew myself, and i have heard few opinions regarding it

some say that yes they datamined a button that was to enter game in offline mode at the start, some say it had completely separate campaign to it

[summer night]

yeah i was digging into it as its "the star of the debate"

looks like in begin it was believed to have a singleplayer from interview at E3 2013

[idle iris]

Probably because they consider monetization and microtransaction stuff like Fortnite's skins and GTA's Shark Cards to be extremely predatory and the fact more and more companies adopted the business model of "keep the same game around and monetize the shit out of teenagers and newbies using the Skinner box method" absolutely disgusting...so they see it as a net win if the whole ship goes down

[summer night]

and that is what disgust me more

[hidden haven]

Yeah I do see that, and it is understandable to think that. Though trying to push that idea via law is.. well, not a good idea in my opinion.

[minor turtle]

I get the idea of preserving games because they are art and all but sometimes especially with performance art the destruction of the art, that once the performance is over it no longer exist but as memory or a scattered few remaining artifacts or photos is part of what makes it art.

[summer night]

oh also has anyone see this https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sony-patent-mcdonalds/

madness

[hidden haven]

unus anus comes to mind

[robust olive]

unus anus was cringe

[hidden haven]

I was able to watch only first three four vids and then it popped out of my head and never caught it. I know it exists in sme archives now but, I do respect the idea of it that it was, and now is gone.

Although I don't think it applies to live service games though, at least I don't think its intention with most of them. You could argue Helldiver's unique seasonal things can be considered as such, or Path of Exile's leagues, but yeah, I odn't think so

[idle iris]

Ross mentioned one game that was designed to self-destruct, The Flock, from 2015. That game had a finite number of player deaths before the extinction event playing out in each match finally wiped the game out completely.
Unfortunately, they set that extinction at like 21 million people, and nowhere near big enough of a community existed before the developers actually ran out of money to keep the game afloat and had to just manually set it to zero to kill it early.

[minor turtle]

that is a more modern an accessible example yes, I took a whole college class on the fluxus art movement from the 1960s which really really leaned into that idea

[brittle crow]

general chat is unreadable and toxic af right now lol seeing people from both sides of the argument throwing insults is just sad

[split spindle]

Memento Mori

[summer night]

i have a idea for a role playing game now with a interesting server reset mechanic

each extinction you reset your avatar but keep your stuff map change

hmmm

[idle iris]

To think we had such a good thing going in here and they're losing their shit in there? Very sad indeed.

[summer night]

oh thats very spicy in there

[hidden haven]

Honestly, expected

[minor turtle]

And it may not be but I don't think anyone is designing a live service game to go on forever either Idk the preservation argument especially from an artist perspective is odd because what exactly are you trying to preserve here a live service game is more theater than painting so what is the goal and can you even accomplish it. Some times as sad as it is art just can't last and that is something that is more understood in the traditional arts that it is in gaming. In the end there are many questions that need to be answer there and it will take time to answer them especially with an art form this young

[summer night]

thrown the ferrets in there

https://www.twitch.tv/ferretsoftware/clip/BoredTenaciousMelonEagleEye-213KLWyABVDPzHlE?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

[hidden haven]

oh yes i agree, i do not think any live service game is meant to be avialable forever. for preservation's sake i could see it as, well, someone likes mechanics of it or its story aspects if it had any, etc.

I do think that we should have ways to somehow preserve some games, but not in the way its presented or suggested

[summer night]

i mean people are trying

[hidden haven]

I have not fully decided which side i am on honestly in terms of preservation, i do see both sides and i do not have clear answer

[summer night]

preservation has too many meaning in my book

[minor turtle]

I can agree to that art preservation and restoration is complicated with any art form and it should be kept in mind can go sometimes go wrong

[summer night]

preservation means video evidence or pictures or writings

[hidden haven]

I had read somewhere there was an initiative to actually open libraries for physical copies of games, but that sadly won't work for a thing that's interactve live service.

[minor turtle]

if you think that is bad try defining art or artist in an academic setting dear gods...never again

[summer night]

same with a playable state technically it loads its playing a menu

[summer night]

yeah no thank you i could only imagine that

[minor turtle]

not necessarily it can also be the keeping and care of an existing work or artifact

[minor turtle]

hell of a way to make page count I will admit

[summer night]

yes but i was thinking with the playable wording its new

like take David do i think that should be cared for the ages yes

skibad toliet thing not so much

please dont say its art

i mean it is

but i can dream

[minor turtle]

there are those who study absurdism or dada that would disagree in the end what is and isn't kept is always going to be an ongoing debate welcome to the big and unanswerable questions of art and art history

[summer night]

wait i thought absurdism was nihilism

[minor turtle]

A lot of the time we don't truly have control over what survives for the next generation and what doesn't after all what we think to preserve and what 10 generations down the line thinks we should have is never the same so much of history is lost simply because well you don't think it is important to say leave a record of how you brush your teeth

[summer night]

that i agree with

[minor turtle]

Nope it is kind of related but absurdism was an art movement about taking art to an extrema it is quite literally asking well is this art and Nihilism is a school of philosophy about how life is meaningless Absurdism is influenced by Nihilism but it is a separate thing

this is a classic example of aburdism/dada art https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)

[summer night]

intresting

[minor turtle]

basically skibidi toilet ain't new by a long shot

[summer night]

yeah i know

it was a pipe dream

sadge

[minor turtle]

fair this is my go to when people try to claim that this is some new fad because well at least skibidi toilet had more work put into it that just writing your name on a toilet you purchased

[summer night]

well that ominous

Wrong chat dude you want general

[minor turtle]

or hell the artwork that will never not upset me one and three chairs by Joseph Kothus I want you to know this is in a museum

[serene valley]

Thats discord language

[idle iris]

He's watching game streams that in theory aren't polluted in vitriol like general-chat is at the moment

[summer night]

thank you im keeping this clean

i need a safe place

[serene valley]

Arguably this would be the proper place to talk about new videos on the channel lol

[summer night]

no this is stream chat

[serene valley]

Gen chat is going brr with other things tho so it gets lost in the void

[idle iris]

Some part of me kinda misses that about SA in the old days, when shit hit the fan like this the admins would lock the thread, start hammering the banhammer and make a witty remark before gassin' the thread.

[summer night]

ive seen

[serene valley]

Well yeah but the streams are arguably close to the videos on the channel lol

[summer night]

you two enjoyed getting involed

[idle iris]

Knowing that Thor was a goon in the classic era made me feel even more of a kinship for him tbh

[serene valley]

Like of any channel in the discord id say this would be the most appropriate channel to talk about a video on the main channel, is all im trying to say lol

[summer night]

i mean yes but i could say editing because of sunders edits

right its 2 in the morning for me and my sleep is calling night chat

[serene valley]

Damn

Its 3 here so kinda same

[minor turtle]

Good night hope the art history and philosophy talk didn't melt your brain too much lol

[summer night]

and remember these word Developers are not the enemy here

[summer night]

no thank you i helped muchly 🙂

it*

after the attacks thrown my way today i needed something to take my focus so i appreciate it 🙂 thank you

[graceful dirge]

@exotic forge

[exotic forge]

Can someone fill me in on the game service situation

[lime laurel]

since I assume it comes here, I wanna share the comment I made on the second video Thor put out, Just my personal thoughts I put down to text on the situation

[graceful dirge]

Well Thor made a new video saying what they demand is not possible for developers, tho he stated consumers must be aware what they buy

[minor turtle]

I don't think Thor is saying all private servers bad but that you must look at the potential
for them to be exploited by bad actors and if that risk is worth it to you and if it is okay but you should still look at the possibility.

[plucky quail]

been thinking about this whole SKG thing and it really feels like it easily boils down to just dont buy the game if you disagree with live service and or online requirements why get the government involved when the consumers can make the message by not purchasing games with practices that we dont like

[earnest reef]

It was stated as more of an unreasonable demand versus is not being cabable

[earnest reef]

I agree with this way of thinking. However, people aren't wanting to contiue the battle with their wallets. Which I also understand as a reasonable take when the price of games continues to increase

[idle iris]

If the voting with dollars thing worked then EA, Sony and Ubisoft would've pivoted from their destructive decisions but so far the people that either don't care and play anyway or value their entertainment over ethics continue to feed the monster sooooo they just keep right on doing what they're doing...

[plucky quail]

yeah but contributing to the problem then bitching about it is like... the consequences of your own actions. you make the bed lie in it

[random steppe]

Not in the vc, but I noticed that Thor's videos on Stop Killing Games is/was being discussed. I got a recently-made video in my youtube recommendation that is a response to those videos (or just one, haven't watched it entirely yet). Mind if I post it?

[old ruin]

....Well, you could have lost the vote.

[earnest reef]

Don't buy little Tim Tim the newest Assassins Creed for Christmas doesn't reach Grandma Bevs ears.

[old ruin]

That is an option to 'vote with your wallet'

[idle iris]

My point precisely.

[graceful dirge]

Well i communicated with Ross Scott about these topics, at the end i gave up, then i see some initiative stating all the wrong things, mistakes where made by Ubisoft, the lack of communication what customers bought, this has been already to court at EU LVL that it's not lawfully, then i see Thor actual saying the same stuff i said to Ross...

[earnest reef]

It used to be an option when gaming was in a more... affordable state.

[plucky quail]

i feel like its easier then ever to vote with your wallet seeing as how MANY games we have you can live your entire life without AAA games

[old ruin]

Honestly I don't even think in this case ubisoft did anything wrong? Maybe give 6 months lead instead of 3, but

[plucky quail]

if its too expensive you doubly should buy it

[earnest reef]

Touche

[idle iris]

Oh no no they do plenty of other stuff too, like locking a lot of the older Assassin's Creed games behind their servers that they pulled the plug on a while back, making games like AC Brotherhood nearly unplayable with significant chunks of the content gone and multiplayer completely gone. I didn't play them back in the day and mind, these are single-player games as well so ripping stuff out just because they didn't want to keep their servers up was pretty gross...

[old ruin]

It's actually shocking how bad The Crew is as an example. If it were an intentional steel man, using one of the worst cases possible to examine some of the weaknesses in their strongest possible case, I would really respect that. Sadly that is not what happened.

Sure

But that's not The Crew

[hoary heart]

people seem extremely dense on this issue 😄 it's fascinating

[plucky quail]

I feel like gamers have forgotten that this entire industry is a luxury service you are not owed anything what you get it what you agree to purchase

[graceful dirge]

To give an example what Ubisoft does and i can show you this with a screenshot of a mail, they send you a TOS after you paid for the game, that's not allowed in EU...

[hoary heart]

you click some boxes when you make the purchase

[earnest reef]

I also think, for once in recent memory, that Ubisoft did nothing wrong. If the option for a new Crew game was accessible after checks notes four years than why did you not migrate to the new game. I think a lot of people seem to forget in Ross's original vid he stated that he belives Ubisoft killed The Crew to sell The Crew Motorfest. I counter that if that was the case it would have happened with the release of The Crew 2. Not almost ten years later

[hoary heart]

yea, Ubisoft killed a game that had ~100 players in it to get those guys to pony up a few more dolars. seems legit

[idle iris]

He used The Crew as an example primarily because it was so recent, so heavily publicized, and Ubisoft's malicious response of "You guys are gonna have to just rethink games as not being something you buy #dealwithit " made recruiting a bit easier. Ross has actually been fighting for game preservation much longer and his video "Games as a Service is fraud" lists over 100 examples of games that were rendered unplayable by design, far more than just The Crew...

[graceful dirge]

No there is no way to see the TOS before you actual pay, i actual filled a complaint about that, the only TOS you can find on their website is the TOS for Ubisoft Subscription service

[old ruin]

I'm... actually not sure that's true? Certainly Steam doesn't seem to change how even EU companies display TOS to me.

[hoary heart]

well things like these should be called out. As Thor said, make the purchasing experience fully transparent and explain what people are actually buying. that is all that can be done, and should be done unless we wanna remove a branch of the games industry

[earnest reef]

Honestly if we are using The Crew as an example, then we need to change it to the ENTIRE EA and 2K sports Catalog of games.

[graceful dirge]

Steam, Epic Store etc do this, i didn't complain about them

[old ruin]

Steam doesn't show me a TOS before I buy a game tho

Can you give me a solid reference to the law you mean? It may simply be you have a right to refund

(Which you would have long-since foregone given The Crew's lengthy time active)

[hoary heart]

Yes it does. It shows you on the payment window itself

[old ruin]

Hm, I wasn't willing to go that far just for this, but that'd make sense too.

[graceful dirge]

I actual send it to Ross Scot, he doesn't even mention it, let me look at the mails 😂

[old ruin]

"Games as service is a fraud" is objectively wrong though

'is a scam' would be a tiny iota more defensible

[idle iris]

Did you watch the video? He makes a pretty decent case for it, not that I would use the word fraud myself of course... that was probably a bit clickbaity.

[old ruin]

but 'is a fraud' is simply, plainly wrong

No, he does not

Have you seen Leonard French's response to it, from thousands of years ago?

he's a copyright lawyer and he takes the claims seriously

It is plainly a false statement

[graceful dirge]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021XC1229(05)
point 2

[old ruin]

It is not fraudulent

[hoary heart]

People tend to forget that these words like 'fraud' have actual definitions that don't act on how you feel on a particular day

[graceful dirge]

This chart

[earnest reef]

Also how they differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. What may be Fraud in America, could be complete legal in the EU.

[old ruin]

the elements of fraud are not technically identical across jurisdictions

but pretty much everyone bans 'theft by lying'

[graceful dirge]

In the US this is allowed, only EU, Brazill and another country have this law

[old ruin]

This... does not actually mandate at which point a TOS is offered

[hoary heart]

I have a feeling this entire debate is going to lead to kind of the same result as the GDPR. A pop-up on each website no gives a s**t about

[old ruin]

I mean, probably nothing happens at all

or maybe a tightening of specific consumer protections

[graceful dirge]

There is a court ruling i'm searching where it is defined a customer has to know what he buys, that's why loot boxes in EU are forbidden etc

[old ruin]

An initiative passing, IIRC, means the european parliament sees the thing

it doesn't mean they do anything

an initiative passed barring abortion. Abortion is still legal across the EU

that's why the bar to pass an initiative is so low

[hoary heart]

I mean the gaming industry is going to lobby heavily against it anyway, so probably yea. But if it gets some kind of viral traction I can see it becoming something politicians in the EU "have" to do something about and passing something almost meaningless that publishers will have to disclose in some convoluted way

[old ruin]

1m signatures across 7 member states

(They've also acted on initiatives that have not passed, from my research, because they were, in fact, well researched and moderately actionable.)

[graceful dirge]

This initiative isn't going to become a law, it's only going to start an investigation that will be done, then if there are things that need to change then the game studios will be brought up to date before they actual going to act on it

[earnest reef]

People seem to forget that some EU laws do have world changing affects. IPhone 15 and up have USB C charging ports all over the world because of the EU. That is why I think it is complete justified to take issue with the initiative not being worded in a good way

[old ruin]

Honestly speaking, most of the things you want are DOA

like, "We want art preservation"

well, basically nobody forces art preservation, of all art, by law

[hoary heart]

Quick question. Let's assume this passes as the worst version of itself where game devs are now required to provide ways for old games to be kept alive by other parties. What about games that are already dead? Does it apply for those that are currently out there and architectured in a way that's impossible to keep around? 😄

[old ruin]

I don't believe the EU permits retroactive application of laws either, so a theoretical worst case is at least bounded by that

And would almost certainly have a sunset date

[graceful dirge]

Well i talked with Ross about that, he's view of game backends are that they are a simple .exe file, while i even explained how you have API's for auth, then for game stuff etc, he still choose to ignore all that

[hoary heart]

btw, I'm not sure anyone here would know and remember a game made by Peter Molyneaux something like 15 years ago, which was a social experiment meant to end. It was called "The Cube" and the point of it was for everyone to chip away at the cube, remove pixels from it's face and the last person would receive something secret which they can then share with the others or keep for himself. That game was designed to end

[tropic wraith]

This should only reasonably take effect after 3-5 years realistically as I’m sure there’s plenty of games development that would need heavy redesign to accommodate such legislation.

[old ruin]

Oh

Mandala Art Online was real

I assumed it must be but it was only an assumption

I figured someone had to do it

[hoary heart]

full entitelement, zero comprehension. got it

[graceful dirge]

Yes a law would go into effect after a certain date, that's what i don't get about the whole text, while he says it in mail to me otherwise the text i read after was a bunch off BS if you ask me...

[old ruin]

Microsoft Edge got strangled as a... default product? Something even more invasive than now. By the EU. Which did in fact threaten microsoft with absolutely massive enforcement penalties (Which, well, microsoft has assets in europe that can be siezed.)

The bulk of improved USian emission standards are driven by EU and to a lesser extent Chinese restrictions. Etc. It's a global economy for weal and woe.

[graceful dirge]

Well at start i stood behind Ross as i was in the understanding "The Crew" was optional online multiplayer, never played it, but i do own it.
Then the unreasonable demands by 16y old mentality people in his discord without any knowledge how a backend works made me leave that discord because it felt exactly like it turned out now...

[old ruin]

But regardless, most of the things that are desired by SKG are not actually actionable and they are, to be quite honest... absurd? Like, again, People do not mandate all art preservation broadly. There are laws about what you can do with specific pieces, specific buildings, UNESCO world heritage sites are generally up to national discretion but are maintained, etc. In Denmark, a lot of titled nobility had to abandon castles because they just... did not have the money to maintain them to historical curation standards. I am fine with that, but it's not 'every apartment complex', it's 'these specific buildings we think have significant historical value.' "These paintaings", etc.

Now, there is some actual basis for moderately broad preservation, but that doesn't mean consumers have access to it. The goal is academic preservation, with a release to the public in the distant future. Because this is about artistic preservation, not 'letting people keep their toys.'

[hoary heart]

why is the crew such an important point? It's just a bad example. The idea itself kills live service games. It kills them not just because of the technicality of how they have complicated backends behind them, but it kills them on a funding market, meaning no equity investor or publisher in their right mind would fund something like this. In a market like that only those big AAA companies would ever be able to pull off a live service game off of their own funding, meaning all of the indie market gets left out in the rain

[old ruin]

If, theoretically, the library of congress puts up say, Crusader of Centy in I want to say 80 years, I'm not sure how they'd want to do that, and, well, it's up to people 80 years from now to decide whether the public should fund a UO server.

But afaik most library of congress collections of public works are, well... voluntary. When they ask.

(Obviously that's not binding on europe, and I really don't know how either the EU or European member states would do it, but I'm quite sure they each have their own logic for these things)

[hoary heart]

I'll be honest. The idea of preserving it as art also bugs me. What about ownership rights on the IP? What if like the example above, I want to make a game that dies after a year, like a social experiment game. Why does legislation prevent me from doing whatever I want with my own intellectual property?

Now just to be clear. If I make a game like that, I should make it clear to everyone that gets involved with it. But should we legislate potential games out of existance?

[old ruin]

This is covered by 'voluntary'

Under my incomplete knowledge of one existing framework

When you donate something to the library of congress, you don't cede copyright

you give them a copy to hold onto ofr when it enters the public domain

once it's entered the public domain, with the presumption that it was printed at all, the creator stops getting a vote anyway, and it's available

[hoary heart]

Right. That sounds to me that someone like Ross and all his followers can make a gofundme, put their money where their ideas and mouths are and create a non-profit for preserving games. Stop trying to legislate what other people can make

[restive copper]

@sweet steppe

[old ruin]

Eh, more efficient to move to existing orgs for this tbh

like the Library of Congress 100% knows how to maintain digital copies of things

[hoary heart]

And if it's voluntary to put your game in this non-profit preservation (can become something like an honorary thing over time) then great

[old ruin]

as far as the US is concerned, the reasonable thing to do would be to ask the Library to start asking for games to be preserved

[hoary heart]

Sure, but the world doesn't revolve around the US

[old ruin]

Sure, but europe has its own systems for this

Pretty much everyone with any money does

[graceful dirge]

The thing for me isn't against live service games, when i bought the crew i was in the understanding the multiplayer was optional, that was how the game was presented to me, I own games like Assassins Creed where the online multiplayer stuff doesn't work anymore but i can still enjoy the single player... So i was like i will play it later, i asked for a refund as i never came to play the game, they just declined it, i think it would be fair to say when i buy a game in discount i'm not obligated to play it within the first 2y, maybe i want to play it after 3y, now i never got that chance and they stole my money

[hoary heart]

Whatever the case. This entire effort can be made in that direction, not in the direction of legislating what others can develop

[old ruin]

I agree with you

And I need to stress: Consumers don't get access to these things

Every broadway show is preserved

you can't watch them

[hoary heart]

Sorry to hear, tbh. The crew was always an mmo. It actually started developing at Ubisoft around the time I got into the gaming industry. I heard about it from about 2012 I think as Ubisoft's "first mmo with cars"

[old ruin]

if you're alive in ... 60ish? Years? You can ask the library of congress for the recordings, once those started

The odds the SKG people get special license to run a private server of FFXIV or DFO or something is basically 0, even with the provision that it's 'if you're in europe'.

[hoary heart]

Tbh, mmo's are maybe easy to make a server for

[tropic wraith]

I’ve never played it, nor own it. But talking to some colleagues at work, they mostly played the single player parts of it, and I think some didn’t even realise their was an online aspect to the games. It simply comes down to the fact that, player paid for a game, and now can’t play it. Those expectations should be challenged and clarified and the practices Ubisoft (and other services) require to have always online functionality need to be destroyed.

I hate the fact that I can’t play any of my copies of assassins creed, or silent hunter, or other Ubisoft game without first logging in to their portal. When I install a game I expect to be able to play it whenever I want. Not be blocked by a login screen, or in the crews case, closed servers.

[old ruin]

Sure, and they could maybe steal enough to do it now

[hoary heart]

There are way more complicated infrastructures out there for things like mobas, battle royales, etc

[old ruin]

but they won't get special license to do so

[graceful dirge]

I'm actual happy, because after seeing gameplay i would never had played it, the fact Ubisoft sold it to me 3y before they knew their licenses where going to run out and didn't tell me this i feel that's theft.
At the other side, i contacted the consumer agency and the law in EU is a game developer only has to keep any game up for 2y, with much respect this is too short and there need to be a debate about it and games might need to be categorized how long support should be there and how long a live service game needs to be upheld (Calculated inside the selling price)

[hoary heart]

The whole premise of the game is that you can roam with your car across the entirety of the continental US while meeting other people randomly. The crux of the issue here is that Ubisoft either purposely or by sheer incompetence (knowing Ubisoft internally at the time I'd point at the latter) did not explain what the game was in any good way shape or form. Either through marketing or shop fronts or anything else

[hoary heart]

3y before they already had a sequel out. You basically bought Wow classic while everyone was on Cataclysm

[old ruin]

This is exactly what Thor means by 'overbroad'. You can't destroy 'always online' requirements. That doesn't make sense, because League is fundamentally an online game. I'm not conversant enough in the law for it,b ut you probably can ultimately end up attacking... speaking hypothetically, the always online component of asscreed 1 or similar. But you can't actually kill 'always online'. And while a server runs, you probably shouldn't legislate that Asscreed can ask you for a login

[old ruin]

I strongly disagree that '2y is too short'. Games are one of the cheapest hobbies on god's green earth

[tropic wraith]

Yeah my colleagues said some similar. I don’t buy anything from EA, Ubisoft, or anything really AAA anymore because I don’t trust these companies to respect the player anymore.

[old ruin]

At least in terms of dollars per hours spent

[hoary heart]

somehow I still trust Valve 😄

[old ruin]

It is completely reasonable to get 2 years of service out of a 70 dollar purchase

[graceful dirge]

i must be honest the reviews for that one where bad, while the first one had better reviews, the whole point is not about them killing the game, new EU laws mandated there should be better security in games for kids and Ubisoft had to update their communication servers, as it seems "The Crew" was a dead game already they decided not to do this (as for a few other games that nobody even mentions...)

[old ruin]

I would pay more than that in annual fees to almost any service I can think of, much less over two years

[tropic wraith]

I mean, technically they *could do the same thing, if you get VAT banned from a game. 🫠

[hoary heart]

VAC and yes. Cheaters are a plague on this industry

[graceful dirge]

As Thor showed in his video, the game was already dead when they know about the upgrade they had to make and still they kept selling the game to people and that's not OK...

[knotty badge]

I don't think you are allowed to ban Value Added Taxes, sadly

[hoary heart]

Give enough beers to some Texans and they might consider using a shotgun against it

[knotty badge]

Somehow I don't think that would help much. I don't think a shotgun would reach from Texas to the EU. Not even a punt gun

[hoary heart]

is VAT not a thing in the US of A?

I'm sorry, I'm not American.. I'm playing off stereotypes here

[knotty badge]

Nah, we have 50 other taxes though

Most notably, sales tax

[old ruin]

That is a specific, and different objection. You can not meaningfully use that to defend '2 years isn't enough time to maintain a game.' "2 years can be enough time," and 'some warning should be given at the one year mark' are in fact not contradictory

VAT happens

[tropic wraith]

I meant VAC ban, typo. 😅

[hoary heart]

so you call it a different thing?

[knotty badge]

From my understanding, VAT can be applied at every stage, where as sales tax is only to be paid by the end consumer.

[hoary heart]

No VAT is also a consumer thing

If for example you buy a car as a company, you don't pay VAT on it

[graceful dirge]

VAT is a consumer tax, for instance companies in most country don't have to pay that tax when they sell to each other

[hoary heart]

Btw, It's been 10 years since I've been on that continent. Do you still not actually show the real prices on store shelves? and have to add the sales tax in your head?

[old ruin]

lol

Some small part of me wonders if that practice is a psyop

[knotty badge]

Tax codes are dense at the best of times, and maybe I'm too AMERICAN to understand this, but it seems like VAT is paid at every level, but the reseller is also credited back the value of that VAT when they resell it, meaning only the end user really has to pay it.

[graceful dirge]

In Canada i think they don't show it

[knotty badge]

we do not

Since sales tax is a regional thing, it is realistic that you could buy an item in one store for one price, drive 10 minutes to another location of the same chain and buy the same item, and have to pay more because you drove into a different state.

[tropic wraith]

Tbf. That sounds like an excellent way to teach everyone basic math. Albeit probably redundant with the advent of tap to pay and credit cards. 😅

[knotty badge]

Also, AMERICA tends to be a bit monolithic in advertising and such, so it's easiest if they don't have to rebake every AD for every different tax region

[hoary heart]

I'm all for it. I live in a country that takes my taxes out of my salary directly before I ever get to see the money. Most of our population have no comprehension of how much they pay in taxes

[knotty badge]

it might be, if the sales tax wasn't anywhere from 6% to 12% in 0.05% incriments

[tropic wraith]

But in the UK, We just tell you what you need to pay, as well as obscure some prices with club cards…

[graceful dirge]

I can't imagine, over here in Belgium we have different BTW (VAT) on food (6%) and life needed things like toilet paper and then luxery articles (21%), people would go insane i think

[hoary heart]

but yea... for individual stores it would not be a big deal to freaking put out the real price on the stickers. They can even show you the freaking math of what's tax and what's actual price if you really want to

[tropic wraith]

Yikes, sounds fun.

[knotty badge]

Yeah, a few years ago my local sales tax went from 8% to 8.5% and people were not pleased

[hoary heart]

Yea, the problem here is that people wouldn't even notice. they would blame "inflation" or the supermarket

[tropic wraith]

I’m guessing it’s so widespread a practice in the US that nobody can really stop the trend anymore? Less confuse the customer into overpaying for something?

[knotty badge]

Here it's a bit obvious, because all of the sales tax on a transaction is added as one number at the very end.
This is useful for organizations, especially non-profits, that can deduct the pre-tax totals of some items from their taxable income.

[graceful dirge]

So in US you pay on all 8.5%?

[knotty badge]

nah, I could drive 20 minutes and be across a state line where the sales tax is 9.2%

Which for us, is a small distance

[hoary heart]

This jarring difference between EU and US sometimes is infuriating when you say 8.5% sales tax, and probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 20?% income tax?

[graceful dirge]

Still, most products here are 21%...

[hoary heart]

In the EU we have more like towards 20% VAT and 40-45% income tax

[knotty badge]

Income tax is a progressive thing, from like 15% on your first $10,000 up to eventually like 22% on all income.
It's weird

[hoary heart]

then again I remember my social security and that my employer cannot fire me without compensation or that I get decent unnemployment 😄

Or the healthcare thing

[knotty badge]

Yeah... our healthcare sucks, to be blunt

If I broke an arm and it wasn't work related I could be out like $5,000

[hoary heart]

yea, that is wild

[knotty badge]

and that's not even touching on the things that really should be at minimal cost to the individual

[old ruin]

The problem with that logic is that regardless of that, they could, in fact, just put the price in the listing. Sure, the TV or Youchube ad says "as low as 9.99*" but the supermarket actually does put 10.59 on the store shelf or what have you. They specifically wait for the cashier for no particularly good reason.

[graceful dirge]

As a private person over here with no kids you pay on your income personal tax above 14.5k 50% while they already took about 35% of your salary...

[old ruin]

Yes, and if you break a leg that is covered.

Presumably your roads are in better repair than the US as well

[hoary heart]

Wait, something sounds wrong there. wdym 50% after 35%... that sounds insane

[old ruin]

taxes don't generally vanish into the aether, the question is if you like what they're used for

[knotty badge]

Bear in mind, half of the population is dumber than the average human.

[graceful dirge]

That's true, my health insurance from the state cost me 20$ every 3 month, to see a doctor i pay 3$

[hoary heart]

hah. you'd be surprised how many politicians direct public funds to their own pockets one way or another

[knotty badge]

Damn. I had an ear infection last month and was out $80 at a walk in clinic to get a palm sized bottle of antibiotic pills and eardrops.

[old ruin]

TV already says 'prices as low as 9.99*' tho, in the states. Because the stores are franchised and can opt out of the national promotion

so it's irrelevant to that

[hoary heart]

with 80 bux I could get a full tooth fixed or 2

Last year I actually went and did all of my teeth in perfect shape, 2 of which were complicated. Maybe cost 200$ total

[knotty badge]

I'm both laughing and crying over here. I had all 4 of my wisdom teeth out a few years ago in 1 visit.
With decent insurance it was still over $250 out of pocket. Nothing complicated about it, it was as textbook as could be.

[hoary heart]

Dentists are not covered by any sort of insurance over here, but it's fairly cheap. even for the EU

[knotty badge]

Dental insurance is seperate from medical here, but it does exist

[graceful dirge]

I paid about 7$ for my wisdom teeth...

[hoary heart]

so yea... taxes low but benefits also low xD

plus you got the right to pew pew

I'll be honest. There was a period in time where I considered moving to the states for a job but then I found out you guys can get fired on the spot. Also you get no time off work so I said nah

[knotty badge]

I just crunched out the cost of a 1 bedroom apartment in my area, as compared to minimum wage.
Accounting for income tax, in my area a months rent could cost about 100 hours. Maybe a bit more.

[old ruin]

to be fair, if moving here for a job was a realistic possibility, you probably would get time off, but as an individual consideration

because the restrictions on coming here have been rough for a long time

[knotty badge]

and that's not even a Good apartment. That's just an I don't think i have to fear getting shot here apartment

which is a valid distinction in my area

[hoary heart]

I mean over here the state mandates I get 22 days off a year + 2 for every 5 year of employment I have on record. The US offered me 5 days of paid time off

[old ruin]

I don't know about 5 weeks or whatever you get

Yeah as a legal thing it'll be low

but you'd probably need a job lined up, and that job would probably offer better if doing the paperwork to bring you here was worth doing

[hoary heart]

no, that was the offer. decent salary, 6 month paid transition time, but again. the benefits were risky

[old ruin]

oh lmao

yeah you were wise

[knotty badge]

Did they have anything to say about housing when you would arrive?

[hoary heart]

6 months of paid housing

[graceful dirge]

I still remember the tour at Google, it was like some Hippy community, until i read the contract, now i know why people where sleeping at their job

[hoary heart]

bear in mind this was a few years ago

[knotty badge]

Yeah, the housing market has not been good the last 2.5 years.

[hoary heart]

I actually recently hired someone who was supposed to go to Blizzard and they cancelled the offer 1 week before he was supposed to fly there

this was around 2023 when all of the gaming industry was laying everyone off left and right

[knotty badge]

I'm hoping it is finally coming down now though. So I can ever buy a house in my lifetime.

[hoary heart]

The housing market is another beast but sadly unless some severe crash happens again, it won't go down from what I understand

[knotty badge]

Currently, mortgage prices and rent prices aren't too different. If you start by dropping a $80,000 down payment on the house.

[hoary heart]

too much wealth tied up in real estate and rich people don't want their portfolios going down

Actually here in Europe Airbnb's are causing a major problem in some cities

I know of 2 cities where it's almost impossible to find rent because everyone just airbnb's their apartments out

[knotty badge]

Way too many investors buying way too many houses and so many of them just sitting empty because they aren't getting their insane prices

[hoary heart]

One of them is Paris 😄

Anyway, gotta go catch some sleep. Thanks for the chats

[graceful dirge]

GN

[old ruin]

Oh, and one last thing on the prior topic, and a danger on mouthing off before checking too much (Myself included):

https://blogs.loc.gov/thesignal/files/2012/09/games-on-the-shelf-1024x768.jpg

https://blogs.loc.gov/thesignal/files/2012/09/game-guides-1024x768.jpg

national libraries are almost certainly already storing significant amounts of this

Just doesn't mean you get to play it

(And again, there's theoretical alterations you can make on this, but)

[restive copper]

@azure knoll Bounty bar i mentioned in stream chat

[graceful dirge]

Consumer laws in EU states before you press the buy button you have to see the TOS, then when you going to pay you get this to agree upon https://legal.ubi.com/StoreTermsofSale
My question after reading the text is simple, what type of game am i buying?
The EU laws state clearly it has to be one of the main topics what product you are buying.
They do state: in the context of a continuous supply : Ubisoft is liable for any lack of conformity appearing during the period in which this content or service is provided to you under the contract;
Given this circumstances they don't provide a contract before you buy the game... (You get it after you pay in the mail).
As Thor also mentioned you should be aware as a consumer what you are buying... Not a standard text what applies to every game in the store...

here comes the part where they break 2 times the EU laws and deceive their customers with a wall of text that doesn't apply to the product...

[restive copper]

This is where im stuck for those on ferret stream

[sweet steppe]

@restive copper

[harsh linden]

Woah
I wanna play

Where play?

Hewwo?

[strange owl]

https://devnix.itch.io/henry-super-brain

[fossil sapphire]

y-yea?

[earnest mirage]

this is great!

[azure glen]

If you want to advertise your video's use #advertising

[stone nacelle]

Posted it in two places hm

[old ruin]

8.1 Where a Ubisoft Product supplied is or includes software ("Software"), this Software is a limited and non-exclusive license to you (and not a sale to you) by the licensor/owner subject to their license agreement or terms included with such Software or presented during your checkout process or software installation process ("License Terms") for your personal and non-commercial use. In addition:

Such Software may not be copied, adapted, translated, made available, distributed, varied, modified, disassembled, decompiled, reverse engineered or combined with any other software, save to the extent that (i) this is permitted in the License Terms, or (ii) applicable law expressly mandates such a right which cannot legally be excluded by contract.

Save to the extent provided for in any applicable License Terms, your rights of return and/or to a refund under these Terms of Sale and any applicable Returns Policy do not apply in the event that you download the Software, open the Software shrink-wrap and/or break the license seal and/or use the Software.

Except to the extent expressly provided by us in writing or under relevant License Terms, Software is provided 'as is' without any warranties, terms or conditions as to quality, fitness for purpose, performance or correspondence with description and we do not offer any warranties or guarantees in relation to Software installation, configuration or error/defect correction. You are advised to refer to any License Terms with regards to determining your rights against a manufacturer, licensor or supplier of the Software.

I also genuinely don't see how you think they provided the terms after. This clearly looks like you have not yet paid, and they provided a link to the terms before you actually signed off on them.

[wintry pond]

but how mane people actually read this? its the same as "there is a warning somewhere inside this 500 word paragraph, so you knew the risks before hand", yes its there, but in reality it isint.

[frank geyser]

Well you agree to them when you play them so in other words, you sign a contract that you have no idea of what they have put in it? Sure I'm not saying that I have read every ToS ever or even each EULA (End-user license agreement) ever that are shown in front of my eyes, but after this I will read them to not stand there with my pants down my ankles and ask why no more game when the game died and they pulled the game from online servers

[old ruin]

There is an actual problem, on a societal level, but there isn't a very good solution I'm familiar with either. It's absurd not to read a contract before you sign it for something major, like a lease agreement, but substantially less absurd not to read it before buying a week's entertainment. But also, that does hint that people sometimes over-catastrophize this. Fundamentally, the actual harm wrt these agreements is generally small. You're looking at like, being out 70 bucks. Genuinely a problem, but not the end of the world. And that's... well, the maximum. Probably the actual harm was significantly smaller.

(And it is, in fact, absurd to expect every game EULA to be read, I should be clear; it's sufficient to read one every few years, along with the Steam and other platform holder TOS when they change.)

[graceful dirge]

No so these are the terms you see all the time, after you buy a game you get a mail with game specific terms as attachement...

[old ruin]

This sounds like they've functionally identified the nature of what you're buying

If you want to say they're in breach of the law, genuinely, go to a regulator

[graceful dirge]

I did file a complaint with the regulator...

[old ruin]

but I would put dollars to donuts that they're within the letter of the law, and not a single millimeter further

They even point out you have a right of refund until you actually break a different seal

[graceful dirge]

Now when they investigate they don't mention anything to the consumer to protect the independent investigation and this can take a while, so i don't know until they are actual going to fine them if something happens with that complaint

[old ruin]

given that you missed them defining their terms in substantial part, I will, with all due respect, assume that you're misunderstanding just enough of the law that you're missing how they are just barely inside of it. But if you're right, hey, you did a civic duty. Ubisoft has legions of lawyers who's specific job is that they do not see large scale problems with any nation they're operating in.

[graceful dirge]

EU law is clear about that, it must be a main topic before you press a buy button in the TOS that states what you buy, not a link to a "contract" that isn't in it, this i called deceiving and other companies where already fined for it

[frank geyser]

But if we now pretend that each person in here have bought the right to each game they have in there libraries, how many other in this discord would own the same rights to the same game? How would that work? Can I say "NO I DON'T WANT THIS GAME TO LIVE FOREVER" while another user/person in here says "YES I WANT THIS GAME TO LIVE FOREVER" who is right then?

[old ruin]

.....

8.1 Where a Ubisoft Product supplied is or includes software ("Software"), this Software is a limited and non-exclusive license to you (and not a sale to you) by the licensor/owner subject to their license agreement or terms included with such Software or presented during your checkout process or software installation process ("License Terms") for your personal and non-commercial use. In addition:

This is a main topic

it is linked before you actually purchased the goods

You have not yet paid and have a chance to look over the terms

[graceful dirge]

I'm not on the same page as i want to be able a game to live forever but i do want to know up front if cars are licensed and my game stops working at a certain point, hardware and drivers i don't demand to be up to date etc

[wintry pond]

its 8, not at the very top, how many people will read that far?

[old ruin]

Irrelevant

[frank geyser]

Do you get to read this whenever you buy a pack of cigs? A pack of condoms? A pack of milk? Why would a game that you only the rights to PLAY?

[old ruin]

Main topic

It's like 30% in even, that's just outright reasonable

[graceful dirge]

But we must be honest, i have a PS5, when i buy a game that only states on the box an internet connection is required it's not enough if you ask me...

[wintry pond]

we know that games are not all the same, but is that true for an average person?

[frank geyser]

so lets say, you buy a pack of condoms, you use one, it bursts and you end up as a father, who at fault then? The developer of that condom? The user of it? The seller of it?

[wintry pond]

do they know the different between a multiplayer, always online, single player, single player with multiplayer aspect/mode games?

[old ruin]

What year do you think this is? Yes, likely they do know the differences in most of those.

[frank geyser]

And if EU wanna make this thing special for EU, then we will just end up with games not sold in EU

[wintry pond]

but all of those say, buy the game

[old ruin]

Lots of people play games and are moderately conversant in basics

[wintry pond]

but all these buy the game are not the same.

[old ruin]

Nah. As long as a requirement isn't onerous people will change their games to sell there

The EU is a larger populace with more disposable income than the US that largely doesn't require significant localization.

[graceful dirge]

Let's take as example Gran Turismo, i played them all, the first one i still have on PS1 and still works fine, now for some reason they also cheap out on licenses and the last one seems to have an expire date, i never play the online functionality of the game and idc if they disable that, i was in the knowledge the game uses cloud save and therefor needs to connect, we must also be honest, talking about cost to keep a dead game active spinning up a docker container isn't going to ruin large studios, also you pay on Playstation to play online, its not Playstation that host a game but the developers, then they should use that money to pay the developers...

[old ruin]

This is in fact a fundamental error. Not all game makers are huge. If this is to be a requisite in the law, it must be in reach for everyone who makes a game